The Burnt Toast Podcast

Today is a very special episode: You are all going to be the very, very first people to hear me read Chapter 1 of FAT TALK: Parenting in the Age of Diet Culture, which comes out in just 5 days, on April 25. We are excerpting this from the audiobook, which I got to narrate. If you love what you hear, I hope you will order the audiobook or the hardcover (or if you’re in the UK and the Commonwealth, the paperback) anywhere you buy books. Split Rock has signed copies and don’t forget that when you order from them, you can also take 10 percent off anything in the Burnt Toast Bookshop.If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.LINKSThat photo by Katy Grannanarchived in the National Portrait Gallery’s Catalog of American PortraitsAnamarie Regino on Good Morning AmericaLisa Belkin's NYT Magazine articlea report published in Children’s Voicea judge ordered two teenagers into foster care2010 analysis published in the DePaul Journal of Health Care LawFat Shame: Stigma and the Fat Body in American CultureFearing the Black BodyHilde Bruch's research papersNational Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA)Judy Freespirit and Aldebaran wrote the first “Fat Manifesto”Several studies from the 1960sresearchers revisited the picture ranking experimentthe 1999–2000 NHANES showed a youth obesity rate of 13.9 percentreaching 19.3 percent in the 2017–2018 NHANESData collected from 1976 to 1980 showed that 15 percent of adults met criteria for obesity.By 2007, it had risen to 34 percent.The most recent NHANES data puts the rate of obesity among adults at 42.4 percent.The NHANES researchers determine our annual rate of obesity by collecting the body mass index scores of about 5,000 Americans (a nationally representative sample) each year.A major shift happened in 1998, when the National Institutes of Health’s task force lowered the BMI’s cutoff points for each weight category, a math equation that moved 29 million Americans who had previously been classified as normal weight or just overweight into the overweight and obese categories.in 2005, epidemiologists at the CDC and the National Cancer Institute published a paper analyzing the number of deaths associated with each of these weight categories in the year 2000 and found that overweight BMIs were associated with fewer deaths than normal weight BMIs.in 2013, Flegal and her colleagues published a systematic literature review of ninety-seven such papers, involving almost three million participants, and concluded, again, that having an overweight BMI was associated with a lower rate of death than a normal BMI in all of the studies that had adequately adjusted for factors like age, sex, and smoking status.But in 2021, years after retiring, Flegal published an article in the journal Progress in Cardiovascular Diseases that details the backlash her work received from obesity researchers.After her paper was published, former students of the obesity researchers most outraged by Flegal’s work took to Twitter to recall how they were instructed not to trust her analysis because Flegal was “a little bit plump herself.”the BMI-for-age chart used in most doctors’ offices today is based on what children weighed between 1963 and 1994. a 1993 study by researchers at the United States Department of Health and Human Services titled “Actual Causes of Death in the United States.” the study’s authors published a letter to the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine saying, “You [ . . . ] cited our 1993 paper as claiming ‘that every year 300,000 deaths in the United States are caused by obesity.’ That is not what we claimed.”“Get in Shape, Girl!”The Fat Studies ReaderToo Fat for Chinaas I reported for the New York Times Magazine in 2019, it has become a common practice for infertility clinics to deny in vitro fertilization and other treatments to mothers above a certain body weightMichelle Obama 2016 speech, another speech, a 2010 speech to the School Nutrition Association, 2013 speechMarion Nestle, a 2011 blog postfood insecurity impacted 21 percent of all American households with children when Obama was elected TheHill.com story on SNAP“I could live on French fries,” she told the New York Times in 2009, explaining that she doesn’t because “I have hips.”Ellyn Satter's an open letter to Obamaseveral other critiques of “Let’s Move"“I don’t want our children to be weight-obsessed"The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!---You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and body liberation. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.And, as I may have mentioned, I’m the author of FAT TALK: Parenting in the Age of Diet Culture, which comes out in just five days. WHAT. So we have a very special episode of Burnt Toast for you today. You are all going to be the very, very first people to hear me read Chapter 1.We are excerpting this from the audiobook, which I got to narrate. It was way more intense than I expected, more difficult than podcasting, but also very fun and one of the most rewarding creative experiences I’ve ever had. I will also say that Chapter 1 was the most physically exhausting one to record because it’s the longest chapter in the book. (No I did not know that sitting still and talking for hours would be physically exhausting but it is!) So if you’re daunted by the length of this episode, please know that other book chapters are easy breezy! Maybe not easy breezy, but they are shorter, whether that is on paper or in your ears. But this is also the chapter I am most proud of, in a lot of ways. I’m so excited for you to hear it. (Content warning for explicit discussions of medical anti-fat bias, childhood trauma, dieting, eating disorders and some unfortunately necessary use of weight numbers and o words. Take care of yourselves!)And of course, if you love what you hear, I hope you will order the audiobook or the hardcover (or if you’re in the UK and the Commonwealth, the paperback) anywhere you buy books. Split Rock has signed copies and don’t forget that when you order from them, you can also take 10 percent off anything in the Burnt Toast Bookshop.Preorder FAT TALK!Thank you so much for supporting this entire process. I give you: The Myth of the Childhood Obesity Epidemic.Chapter 1: The Myth of the Childhood Obesity EpidemicAnamarie Regino is a 25-year-old in Albuquerque, New Mexico, who looks a lot like every other 25-year-old on TikTok. She posts videos of her dogs and her tattoos. She lip syncs and tries out new ways to wear eyeliner. And she participates in sassy memes: “Soooo . . . this whole meme that’s going around with ‘decade challenge’?” she says in a video from 2019. “I just want to say: I think I won that.” Then Anamarie’s current lipsticked smirk is replaced by a photo of her from 2009. In both shots, Anamarie is fat. In fact, in other recent TikTok videos and Instagram posts, Anamarie proudly describes herself as fat, affectionately calls out her double chin, and uses hashtags like #PlusSize and #BBW (short for “big, beautiful woman”). But this video is also tagged #WeightLossCheck, because in the 2009 photo, Anamarie is significantly larger than her adult self. Twelve-year-old Anamarie has a half-hearted smile, but her dark bangs are swept over most of her face. It is the classic awkward “before” shot.It’s not, however, the most famous photo ever taken of Anamarie. That photo, shot by Katy Grannan when Anamarie was just four years old, first ran in a 2001 New York Times Magazine story and is now archived in the National Portrait Gallery’s Catalog of American Portraits. Anamarie’s body became part of our historical record when she was removed from her parents’ custody by the state of New Mexico because she weighed over 120 pounds at age three, and social workers determined that her parents “have not been able or willing” to control her weight.The case made international headlines, with Anamarie’s parents telling their story to Good Morning America and to Lisa Belkin of the New York Times Magazine, for the article that accompanied Grannan’s portrait. Anamarie’s mother, Adela Martinez-Regino, had long been concerned about her daughter’s appetite and her rapid growth, and then, her delayed speech and mobility. She sought help from medical professionals repeatedly from the time Anamarie was just a few months old, and multiple tests ruled out any known genetic cause, such as Prader-Willi syndrome, a rare chromosomal disorder that causes children to never feel fullness. But Anamarie continued to grow. And doctors grew frustrated by what they perceived to be a dangerous pattern: Anamarie would lose weight when undergoing their intensive medical regimens, including prescription liquid diets that provided her no more than 550 calories per day. But she would regain the weight when the protocol ended and she was once again left in her family’s care. To the doctors, the risks to Anamarie lay not in their use of aggressive weight loss tactics on a toddler but in what happened when her family let her eat. “They treated her for four years, doctor after doctor. Not one of them could help. Then they took her away for months, and they still couldn’t tell me what was wrong,” Martinez-Regino told Belkin. “They’ve played around with her life like she was some kind of experiment. [ . . . ] They don’t know what’s wrong, so they blame us.”Martinez-Regino also reported that when Anamarie was taken from her parents, they had to listen to their daughter screaming for them as a nurse wheeled her away. During her months in foster care, Anamarie lost some weight and got new glasses but also stopped speaking Spanish (her father’s native language) and was understandably traumatized by the separation from her parents. The state’s decision to take custody of Anamarie was immediately controversial: “If this were a wealthy, white, professional family, would their child have been taken away?” Belkin asked in her piece, noting how often doctors and social workers perceived a language barrier with the Regino family, even though English was Anamarie’s mother’s first language. As a nation, we debated the question in op-eds, on daytime talk shows, and at water coolers: Should a child’s high body weight be viewed as evidence of child abuse?Anamarie Regino wasn’t the first or the last child to be removed from parental custody due to her weight. In 1998, a California mother was convicted of misdemeanor child abuse after her thirteen-year-old daughter, Christina Corrigan, died weighing 680 pounds. A handful of similar cases popped up in Indiana, New York, Pennsylvania, and Texas over the subsequent decade, according to a report published in Children’s Voice, a publication of the Child Welfare League of America. And in 2021, a British case made international headlines when a judge ordered two teenagers into foster care because their parents had failed to make them wear their Fitbits and go to Weight Watchers meetings. A 2010 analysis published in the DePaul Journal of Health Care Law by a legal researcher named Cheryl George summarizes one prevailing cultural attitude on such tragedies:Parents must and should be held accountable for their children’s weight and health. Parents can be a solution in this health care crisis, but when they are derelict in their duties, they must be held criminally responsible for the consequences of their actions.George acknowledged the “fear and anxiety” caused when a child is removed from parental custody but quickly dismissed that as a priority, quoting an earlier article on the subject: “If a child remains with his or her parents in order to affirm the ‘attachment,’ we may be overlooking the looming morbid obesity problem,” she wrote. Never mind that removing custody in an effort to address this “morbid obesity” overlooks a child’s emotional and developmental needs, as well as several basic human rights.A New Mexico judge dismissed charges against Anamarie’s parents after a psychiatric evaluation of Martinez-Regino found no evidence of psychological abuse. But the family was left to sort through the wreckage of those harrowing months, while continuing to seek answers that doctors could not provide to explain Anamarie’s accelerated growth. And Anamarie’s story embedded itself in our national consciousness. She became a kind of “patient zero” for the war on childhood obesity. Even Belkin’s piece, which is largely sympathetic to the family, frames Anamarie’s body as the problem. Belkin makes sure to emphasize how this toddler’s weight made her unlovable, describing Anamarie’s “evolution from chubby to fat to horrifyingly obese” in family photos, and noting that Martinez-Regino “knows that the sight of her daughter makes strangers want to stare and avert their eyes at the same time.” Having a fat child was framed as the ultimate parental failure. Anamarie’s story confirmed that our children’s weight is a key measure of our success as parents, especially for mothers.Nowhere in the public conversations around Anamarie’s early childhood was there ever any attempt to understand what Anamarie herself thought of her body or the treatment she received because of it. Today, her social media makes it clear that she’s proud to have lost weight but also proud to still identify as fat, and maybe also still working it all out. (Anamarie—quite understandably—did not respond to my interview requests.) But in the late 1990s and early 2000s, our anxiety about the dangers of fatness in children far outstripped any awareness of their emotional health.Today, this conversation has evolved, but only so far: We want our kids to love their bodies, but we also continue to take it for granted that fat kids can’t do that. A child’s high body weight is still a problem to solve, a barrier to their ability to be a happy, healthy child. This thinking is the result of a nearly forty-year-old public health crusade against the rising tide of children’s weight. We’ve been told—by our families, our doctors, and voices of authority, including First Lady Michelle Obama— that raising a child at a so-called healthy body weight is an essential part of being a good parent.But when we talk about the impossibility of raising a happy, fat child, we’re ignoring the why: It’s not their bodies causing these kids to have higher rates of anxiety, depression, and disordered eating behaviors. Even when high weight does play a role in health issues, as we’ll explore in Chapter 2, it’s often a corresponding symptom, a constellation point in a larger galaxy of concerns. The real danger to a child in a larger body is how we treat them for having that body. Fat kids are harmed by the world, including, too often, their own families. And our culture was repulsed by fat children long before we considered ourselves amid an epidemic of them. “It is easy for us to assume today that the cultural stigma associated with fatness emerged simply as a result of our recognition of its apparent health dangers,” writes Amy Erdman Farrell, PhD, a feminist historian at Dickinson College, in her 2011 book, Fat Shame: Stigma and the Fat Body in American Culture. “What is clear from the historical documents, however, is that the connotations of fatness and of the fat person—lazy, gluttonous, greedy, immoral, uncontrolled, stupid, ugly, and lacking in will power—preceded and then were intertwined with explicit concern about health issues.” To understand how we’ve reached this anxious place of wanting our kids to love their bodies, but not wanting them to be fat, we have to first go backward and understand the making of our modern childhood obesity epidemic. And we need to see how it has informed, and been informed by, our ideas about good mothers and good bodies.A SHORT HISTORY OF FATPHOBIAJust as we think of childhood obesity as a modern problem, we often frame fatphobia as a modern response and wax poetic about the days of yore when fat was seen as a sign of wealth, status, and beauty. But when historians dig back through old periodicals, newspapers, medical records, and other historical documents, they find plenty of evidence of anti-fat bias throughout Western history. The ancient Greeks celebrated thin bodies in their sculptures, art, and poetry. By the 1500s, corsets made from wood, bone, and iron were designed to flatten the torsos of the European aristocracy. And early novels like Don Quixote and the plays of Shakespeare are full of fat jokes and fat characters played as fools. For the purposes of understanding our modern childhood obesity epidemic, it’s most helpful to see how Western anti-fatness intensified at the end of the late nineteenth century and then strengthened in the early decades of the twentieth century. This happened in response to the end of American slavery and increasing rights for women and people of color, as Sabrina Strings traces in her seminal work, Fearing the Black Body. In Fat Shame, Farrell notes that for much of the nineteenth century, fatness was attached to affluence and social status “and as such, might be respectable [ . . . ] but also might reveal gluttonous and materialistic traits of specific, unlikeable, and even evil individuals. By the end of the 19th century, fatness also came to represent greed and corrupt political and economic systems.” Around the same time, advances in medicine and sanitation led to a decrease in infant mortality and infectious disease death rates. This meant that by the early 1900s the scientific world could begin to consider the ill effects of high body weight in a more concerted way. And scientists brought their preexisting associations of fat with sloth and amorality to this work.The template for our modern body mass index was first designed as a table of average heights and weights in the 1830s by a Belgian statistician and astronomer named Lambert Adolphe Jacques Quetelet. Quetelet set out to determine the growth trajectory of the life of the “Average Man,” meaning his white, Belgian, nineteenth century peers. He never intended his scale to assess health. But in the early 1900s, the American life insurance industry began using his work to determine what they called an “ideal weight” for prospective clients based on their height, gender, and age. How closely you matched up to this ideal determined whether you qualified for a standard life insurance policy, paid a higher premium, or were denied coverage. And as the medical world was connecting these first dots between weight and health, we see the unmistakable presence of anti-fat bias. “A certain amount of fat is essential to an appearance of health and beauty,” wrote nutrition researchers Elmer Verner McCollum and Nina Simmonds in 1925. “It is one indication that the state of nutrition is good. [ . . . But] we all agree that excessive fat makes one uncomfortable and unattractive.” Health and beauty were synonymous to these researchers, and many other medical experts of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.Much of the early scientific work around weight was rooted in the racist belief that fat bodies were more primitive because they made white bodies look more like Black and immigrant bodies. Black women, in particular, were (and still are) stereotyped as a “mammy” (a fat and asexual maternal caretaker of white families), a hypersexual “Jezebel,” or, more recently, a “welfare queen” (a fat, amoral, single mother whose existence endangers the sanctity of the white family). The almost exclusively white and predominantly male fields of medicine and science were eager to find “proof” of white people’s superiority to other racial groups and made broad generalizations about racial differences in body size and shape (as well as facial features, skull size, and so on) to build their case.In 1937, a Jewish psychiatrist named Hilde Bruch set out to challenge the theory of fatness as a sign of racial inferiority by studying hundreds of Jewish and Italian immigrant children in New York City. She examined their bodies (with a particular focus on height, weight, and genital development). She visited their homes to observe children eating and playing, and she interviewed their mothers extensively. And Bruch determined that there was nothing physically wrong with the fat kids in her study—which could have been a huge breaking point in our cultural understanding of weight and health. But although she disputed the notion that fat white immigrants and fat people of color were biologically inferior to thin white Americans, Bruch still framed fatness as a matter of ethnicity: “Obesity occurs with greater frequency in children of immigrant families than in those of settled American background,” she declared in a 1943 paper. And instead of blaming physiology, Bruch blamed mothers. Her papers on childhood obesity explain the children’s fatness as “a result of the smothering behavior of their strong willed immigrant mothers,” writes Farrell. “These mothers simultaneously resented and clung to their children, trying to make up for both their conflicting emotions and poor living conditions by providing excessive food and physical comfort. Bruch described the fathers of these fat children as weak willed, often absent, and ‘yearning’ for the love that their wives devoted to the children.”Bruch’s description of immigrant parents of fat children is a neat precursor to the treatment the Regino family received during Anamarie’s custody case. Anamarie’s father, Miguel, goes unquoted in the New York Times Magazine feature and most other media, while her mother is required to defend herself as a parent and assert herself as an American repeatedly, in the media and with doctors and social workers who assume she can’t understand them. “There were so many veiled comments which added up to, ‘You know those Mexican people, all they eat is fried junk, of course they’re slipping her food,’” the Regino family’s lawyer told Belkin. The social worker’s affidavit recommending that Anamarie be placed in foster care concluded by saying, “The family does not fully understand the threat to their daughter’s safety and welfare due to language or cultural barriers.” Martinez-Regino said such comments showed her that “they decided about us before they even spoke to us.”So anti-fatness, racism, and misogyny have long intersected with and underpinned one another. Even when a researcher like Bruch set out to challenge one piece of the puzzle, she did so by reinforcing the rest of our cultural biases. The immigrant children she studied weren’t diseased—but their weight was still a problem, and their mothers still held responsible. It would be decades before anyone thought to question either assumption. In 1969 the nascent “fat acceptance” movement took off with the establishment of the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance (NAAFA). In 1973, two California activists named Judy Freespirit and Aldebaran wrote the first “Fat Manifesto” for their organization, the Fat Underground: “We believe that fat people are fully entitled to human respect and recognition,” they began. A later clause specifies:We repudiate the mystified “science” which falsely claims that we are unfit. It has both caused and upheld discrimination against us, in collusion with the financial interests of insurance companies, the fashion and garment industries, reducing industries, the food and drug establishments.These early activists created spaces where fat people could find community and support and begin to understand the way they were treated as a form of chronic oppression. Along with disability rights activists, they operated on the fringes of feminism and queer activism, and their ideas were far from any mainstream conversations about weight.But around the same time, a handful of researchers began studying fat stereotypes as a way of understanding how we learn and internalize biases. In several studies from the 1960s, researchers showed children drawings of kids with various body types (usually a disabled child, a child with a birth defect, and a child in a larger body) and found that they consistently rated the fat child as the one they liked least. In a 1980 experiment, a public health researcher named William DeJong found that high school students shown a photo of a higher-weight girl rated her as less self-disciplined than a lower-weight subject unless they were told her weight gain was caused by a thyroid condition. “Unless the obese can provide an ‘excuse’ for their weight [ . . . ] or can offer evidence of successful weight loss, their character will be impugned,” he wrote. In 2012, researchers revisited the picture ranking experiment from the 1960s with a group of 415 American fifth and sixth graders and found that anti-fat bias had only intensified. They noted, “The difference in liking between the healthy and obese child was currently 40.8 percent greater than in 1961.” So, the farther we come in claiming to understand and care about the health of fat children, it seems, the less we like them. As Anamarie’s mother said in the New York Times Magazine story: “They decided about us before they even spoke to us.”THE MAKING OF THE MODERN OBESITY EPIDEMICIn 1988, Colleen was ten years old, living in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. She had never heard of fat acceptance or the Fat Manifesto or early research on anti-fat biases. But she experienced fatphobia every day. At home, family members would make comments like “You look like you’re going to have a baby with that belly” and remind her to suck in her stomach and stand “like a lady,” with her hands clasped in front of her middle, especially when she went up to receive Communion at church. At school, kids teased her mercilessly, calling her “Tank” when she played four-square at recess. When everyone got weighed in her gym class, Colleen recalls stepping on the scale in front of all her classmates and then having to put her weight on an “About Me” poster that was hung in the school hallway. Highlands Ranch is a mostly white, affluent suburb of Denver also known as “The Bubble,” and Colleen thinks its’ lack of diversity played a role in her experience. “There was a sense of perfectionism and I didn’t fit that ‘perfect’ or ideal body type.” When the bullying reached a breaking point, her parents called a psychologist—and put Colleen on the popular ’90s weight loss plan Jenny Craig. “I remember my mom saying, ‘You need to nip this in the bud right now,’” says Colleen, who is now a forty-two-year-old physician’s assistant, still living in a larger body, and still living in Highlands Ranch, with her husband and eleven-year-old son. “I think she felt that if I was fat at that age, I’d be fat for the rest of my life, and live this horrible life where everyone would make fun of me, and I’d never be accepted.” There was no discussion of consequences for the kids bullying Colleen at school. Her family is white and now upper middle class, but having a fat child still subjected Colleen’s parents, who grew up working class themselves, to stigma and scrutiny. Colleen’s weight was their problem to solve, and her mother, especially, was determined to fix it.Indeed, by the 1990s, fixing everyone’s weight had become a national project. In 1997, a Boston pediatrician named William Dietz, MD, PhD, joined the front lines of the fight, as director of the Division of Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Obesity at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. “I took the CDC job because I thought that obesity needed to be a national concern, and I couldn’t really do that much about it in an academic setting,” he tells me. Dietz and his colleagues had been warning about a rise in body size for both children and adults since the mid-1980s, based on data collected in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, known as NHANES, which is executed every two years. Data collected beginning in 1971 showed that just 5.2 percent of kids aged two to nineteen met the criteria for obesity then. By the survey begun in 1988, that percentage had nearly doubled, and the 1999–2000 NHANES showed a youth obesity rate of 13.9 percent. That rate has continued to climb, reaching 19.3 percent in the 2017–2018 NHANES. A similar rise in body size was documented for adults: Data collected from 1976 to 1980 showed that 15 percent of adults met criteria for obesity. By 2007, it had risen to 34 percent. The most recent NHANES data puts the rate of obesity among adults at 42.4 percent.The statistics alone were startling, but Dietz wanted to find an even more effective way to communicate to Americans the scale of the obesity epidemic. One day early in his CDC tenure, while chatting with staffers in a hallway, Dietz suggested they plot the NHANES findings across a map of the United States, to designate which states had become “obesity hot zones,” using a green to red color-coded system. “Those maps, more than anything else, I think, began to, well, transform the discussion of obesity,” Dietz tells me. “Nobody argued thereafter that there wasn’t an epidemic of obesity because those maps were so compelling.”Dietz’s maps, which are updated every year, and the NHANES numbers are dramatic, unprecedented, and, to some extent, indisputable. Americans are, on average, bigger than we were a generation ago. And our kids are bigger, on average, than we were as kids. We’ll look more at explanations for this rise in body size in Chapter 2. But what I want to note about these numbers now is how they continued to climb even as public health officials were printing their maps and assembling this evidence of their epidemic; even as weight loss became our national pastime. One conclusion we can therefore draw: The weight loss industry and public health messaging have failed, quite spectacularly, in their quest to make anyone smaller. They may even have had the opposite effect. But it’s also worth looking at these statistics in a little more detail, to see what else they tell us.The NHANES researchers determine our annual rate of obesity by collecting the body mass index scores of about 5,000 Americans (a nationally representative sample) each year. BMI is a blunt tool, never developed to directly reflect health. But it’s useful for tracking populations in this way because it’s easy to calculate by dividing a person’s weight in kilograms by the square of his or her height in meters. From there, researchers can sort people into the categories of underweight, normal weight, overweight, or obese, depending on where they fall on the BMI scale. This entire project of categorizing people by body size— and determining that there is only one “normal” weight range—is flawed and loaded with bias. And to make matters more confusing, the cutoff points for those categories haven’t stayed fixed over the years. A major shift happened in 1998, when the National Institutes of Health’s task force lowered the BMI’s cutoff points for each weight category, a math equation that moved 29 million Americans who had previously been classified as normal weight or just overweight into the overweight and obese categories. The task force argued that this shift was necessitated by research. But just a few years later, in 2005, epidemiologists at the CDC and the National Cancer Institute published a paper analyzing the number of deaths associated with each of these weight categories in the year 2000 and found that overweight BMIs were associated with fewer deaths than normal weight BMIs. (Both the obese and underweight groups were associated with excess deaths compared to the normal weight group, but the analysis linked obesity, specifically, with less than 5 percent of deaths that year.)Rather than revisiting the cutoff lines for BMI weight categories after this research came out, many researchers objected to that study being published at all. “There was a lot of criticism that our finding was very surprising,” the study’s lead author, Katherine Flegal, MPH, PhD, told me in 2013. “But it really wasn’t, because many other studies had supported our findings.” These included studies that the Obesity Task Force had reviewed while debating BMI cutoffs—so many studies, in fact, that in 2013, Flegal and her colleagues published a systematic literature review of ninety-seven such papers, involving almost three million participants, and concluded, again, that having an overweight BMI was associated with a lower rate of death than a normal BMI in all of the studies that had adequately adjusted for factors like age, sex, and smoking status. They also found no association with mortality at the low end of the obese range. This review was also met with criticism and fury by mainstream obesity researchers. The Harvard School of Public Health held a symposium to discuss all the ways that Flegal’s work made them mad. “I think people will be endlessly surprised by these findings,” is how Flegal put it to me then, while she was still employed by the CDC and presumably felt required to be circumspect about the criticism her work received.But in 2021, years after retiring, Flegal published an article in the journal Progress in Cardiovascular Diseases that details the backlash her work received from obesity researchers:Some attacks were surprisingly petty. At one point, Professor 1 posted in a discussion group regarding salt intake that JAMA had shown a track record of poor editorial judgment by publishing “Kathy Flegal’s terrible analyses” on overweight and mortality. Similarly, again using a diminutive form of my name, Professor 1 told one reporter: “Kathy Flegal just doesn’t get it.”After her paper was published, former students of the obesity researchers most outraged by Flegal’s work took to Twitter to recall how they were instructed not to trust her analysis because Flegal was “a little bit plump herself.” The most depressing part is how well these personal attacks, rooted in fatphobia and misogyny, worked: For years, Flegal’s findings have been all but ignored by doctors and other healthcare providers, for whom using BMI to determine health has remained accepted practice.Doctors use BMI to determine health for kids, too, using a similar calculation, and then plotting that number as a percentile on a BMI-for-age chart, which shows how they are growing compared to same-sex peers of the same age. BMI doesn’t take a child’s muscle mass or level of pubertal development into account, both of which influence body composition. And the BMI-for-age chart used in most doctors’ offices today is based on what children weighed between 1963 and 1994. “It’s true that the demographics of the population have changed,” says Dietz, noting that obesity rates differ dramatically by racial identity. Black kids, especially, tend to be bigger than non-Black peers and start puberty earlier, which impacts their growth trajectory. But Dietz stops short of acknowledging that maybe we should use a different scale to assess the weight/health relationship of these kids, pointing to research done by the World Health Organization, which found the growth curves of upper- and middle-income, healthy children in six different countries to be similar. “You know, you need to draw the line somewhere,” he says.Dietz drew that line in 2010, when categories on the pediatric growth charts were renamed. Kids who were previously identified as “at risk of overweight” were relabeled “overweight,” and kids who had been classified as overweight were now designated as “having obesity.” This decision, along with the earlier 1998 reshuffling of the adult BMI scale, was controversial. “There was a feeling at the time, from a conservative faction, that obesity was too drastic a diagnosis [for kids],” says Dietz, who pushed hard for the change. He stands by it a decade later, though he does acknowledge that the “overweight” range, defined as the 85th to 95th percentiles on the growth chart, is more of a gray area. “There are a lot of misclassifications there because you find kids who just have a large frame or are very muscular,” Dietz says. “Whereas body weights in excess of the 95th percentile are almost invariably fat.”I want to point out here that there is anti-fatness even in how Dietz (and Flegal, in her work on adult BMI categories) make allowances for bodies who are “just overweight,” or on the low end of obesity versus the higher end. Such distinctions still rank different kinds of fatness in ways that silo and stigmatize people at the top of the scale and ignore that they have just as nuanced and complicated a picture of health as anybody else. Or would, if anybody bothered to study their health in non-stigmatizing ways. In fact, kids’ body weights above the 95th percentile vary tremendously in composition—we just don’t have a good tool for measuring them. A child in the 99th percentile might have a BMI of 29 or 49, but they’re plotted along the same line because the chart doesn’t go any higher.The debates within research communities over how to define obesity rarely make headlines—only the resulting scary statistics, which is how those numbers bake into our collective subconscious as truth, even though they cannot tell the full story. A particularly dangerous one is the claim that “obesity kills 300,000 people per year!” This figure is used by doctors, the media, and for years by Jillian Michaels, the celebrity personal trainer and host of the TV show The Biggest Loser. But where did we get this number? From a 1993 study by researchers at the United States Department of Health and Human Services titled “Actual Causes of Death in the United States.” These scientists combed through mortality data from 1990 and attributed 300,000 American deaths due to heart attacks, strokes, and other medical issues to “diet and activity patterns.” The only contributor with a higher death toll was tobacco (400,000). The researchers made no mention of weight, and they also analyzed data for only one single year. Nevertheless, in 1994, former surgeon general C. Everett Koop joined forces with then First Lady Hillary Clinton to kick off their “Shape Up America” campaign, citing that 300,000 figure as proof of the need for a “war against obesity.” Other researchers also referenced the figure often enough that in 1998, the study’s authors published a letter to the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine saying, “You [ . . . ] cited our 1993 paper as claiming ‘that every year 300,000 deaths in the United States are caused by obesity.’ That is not what we claimed.” But the “epidemic” was already underway.What motivated researchers and public health officials to hype their “war on obesity” in this intense way? Many operate from a place of deep concern for their fellow humans. Dietz, for example, struck me as personable and passionate about helping children during both of our conversations. But he has also been financially entangled with the weight loss industry for much of his career. After his tenure at the CDC, Dietz served on the scientific advisory board of Weight Watchers. And even before joining the CDC, Dietz was a member of the group then known as the International Obesity Task Force. Now known as the World Obesity Federation, this task force began as a policy and advocacy think tank “formed to alert the world to the growing health crisis threatened by soaring levels of obesity,” according to the organization’s official history. The task force was framed as an independent alliance of academic researchers—but many of these researchers, including the organization’s founder, a British nutrition scientist named Philip James, were paid by pharmaceutical companies to conduct clinical trials on weight loss drugs; James even hosted an awards ceremony for the drug manufacturer Roche. In 2006, an unidentified senior member of the task force told a reporter for the British Medical Journal that the organization’s sponsorship from drug companies “is likely to have amounted to ‘millions.’” And in the years around that first shift in the BMI cutoffs— the one that resulted in twenty-nine million more Americans in the overweight and obesity categories—the Food and Drug Administration approved a flurry of weight loss drugs: dexfenfluramine (sold as Redux) in 1996, sibutramine (sold as Meridia) in 1997, and orlistat (sold as Xenical and Alli) in 1999. More overweight and obese Americans meant a larger potential market for the makers of those drugs. In America’s “war on obesity,” the weight loss industry had just negotiated its arms deal.While both Redux and Meridia were later recalled due to concerns about heart damage, the FDA approved several more weight loss drugs in 2012, 2014, and 2021. Today the US weight loss market is valued at over $70 billion. Dietz is now the director of the Strategies to Overcome and Prevent (STOP) Obesity Alliance at the Sumner M. Redstone Global Center for Prevention and Wellness at George Washington University. Like IOTF before it, the STOP Obesity Alliance looks like an academic think tank but actually comprises “a diverse group of business, consumer, government, advocacy, and health organizations dedicated to reversing the obesity epidemic in the United States,” according to its 2020 annual report, which further discloses that in that year alone, the alliance received $105,000 from corporate members including Novo Nordisk, a pharmaceutical company that manufactures liraglutide and semaglutide, two recent weight loss drugs to get FDA approval, and WW, the brand formerly known as Weight Watchers. They also received an additional $144,381 from Novo Nordisk to sponsor a research project on primary care obesity management.Dietz is perfectly upfront about all of this when I ask him about the role of corporate sponsorship in obesity research. “We would not have been able to do this work without that kind of support,” he tells me. “Does that bias my judgment about medication? I don’t think so. But, you know, that’s an external kind of thing.” It doesn’t feel problematic to Dietz to be funded by drug companies because he views weight loss medication as “the biggest thing that’s been missing in obesity care”—a silver bullet that’s going to transform people’s lives—because he doesn’t question the premise that fat people must need their lives transformed. “Companies and practitioners have the same goals. And that’s to treat obesity effectively and to be reimbursed for that care,” he tells me. “Those go hand in hand. So, there’s no way of avoiding that conflict of interest.” The bias is baked in.Almost thirty years later, Colleen can’t even remember if she lost weight on that first diet, though she does recall going to her brother’s Cub Scout camp out in the mountains of Colorado and watching all their friends eat hot dogs while she ate her Jenny Craig meal. “It was always, ‘Come on, Colleen, you know that French fry is not on your diet,’” she says. Dieting became an ever-present feature of her tween and teen years. Colleen gave up on expecting her body to fit in; she channeled all her energy into being “the smart one, the sweet one, the people pleaser,” as she puts it. “I had a lot of friends, I was part of the ‘popular clique,’ but I felt like I had to conform in those ways,” she explains. “Everyone else was the same physical body type, and pretty soon they were all kind of going out with each other. But boys weren’t interested in me.”So, Colleen excelled at being a good friend and being good at school. When she got to college, she decided to major in nutrition. “I was so, so sick of people telling me what to eat, how to eat, how to do anything,” she explains. “I wanted to go find out for myself what the truth is behind all of this.” But Colleen studied nutrition from 1999 to 2003, the same years when the 300,000 deaths figure and the state maps were making headlines. “It was a very weight-centric education, to say the least,” she says. When a guest lecturer came to campus to give a talk on how we can be both “fat and fit,” Colleen recalls her professors telling students to completely disregard it. They were sure it couldn’t be true—after all, our own government research had told them everything they needed to know about weight and health.MODERN MOTHER BLAMEElena, forty-one, grew up in New York City and New Jersey and has her own list of childhood diets prescribed during the war on obesity’s early years: Richard Simmons’s Deal-a-Meal, Weight Watchers, and “Get in Shape, Girl!” a workout video series marketed to tween girls, which involved a lot of pastel leotards, ankle weights, and side ponytails. “I remember my mom taking me with her to this twelve-week weight loss group she was doing, and at the end of it, we all went out for pizza to celebrate, which seems so absurd now,” says Elena. Her mom dieted steadily, but it’s Elena’s dad who took it even further. “He was in the Air Force Reserves and he’d have to hit certain weights every so often, so I remember him, like, not eating or eating and puking and eating,” she says. Nobody suggested this was a good idea, but it certainly communicated to Elena that her own “chubby” body was not okay.Her extended Afro–Puerto Rican family reinforced that narrative: “My grandmother would make comments, and I remember one of her friends would always say, ‘You’re fat!’ to me. But in Spanish, so she would say, ‘Ahhh, gordita!’ and it’s like, a term of endearment and a term of criticism all in one,” Elena says. “You were not supposed to be fat. But also, my grandmother would fry a chicken for me, for like, a snack. It was very convoluted.” Elena isn’t sure if her grandparents and their friends were measuring her by Puerto Rican or white American beauty standards, but she knows which metric she used on herself. “I compared myself to the typical teen and fashion magazines of the 1980s and 1990s, which were very white and thin,” she says. “My friends were of varying races, but they were almost all thin, so I also compared myself to them. I knew my weight was different from what was mostly around me. And I hated that.”Like Colleen, Elena was also teased constantly at school and didn’t date in high school. But some of her most intense trauma came from pediatricians. “I remember one doctor just berating me in front of my mother, telling me, ‘You have to stop eating fast food!’” Elena says. She was nine years old. She liked fast food but ate it only rarely. “Getting to go out to eat at all was kind of special,” Elena says. “She made all these assumptions about me, and remember being so crushed.” Elena told her mother she’d never go back to that doctor. “And probably from the time I was twelve, until I needed a physical for college, I just didn’t go.” Elena is now a public health nurse—finding her way into a version of the profession that so stigmatized her, just as Colleen did with nutrition—and lives with her husband and two children in Philadelphia. She spends her workdays making home visits to low-income, expecting, and new mothers. Elena weighs the babies after they’re born, but she never asks a mother to get on a scale. “I never talk about my clients’ health through the lens of weight. Never,” she says. “The health impacts they face are due to racism and poverty, not weight. So, I approach it that way: How can we get you money and resources? How can I radically listen to and accept you? That’s my role.”Elena parents carefully around weight, too; her kids never hear her discuss diets or body size. If they hear someone described as “fat,” Elena never says, “Don’t say that!” because she doesn’t want to reinforce that fat is bad. “I say, ‘Yes, fat people exist, and I am one of them, and there’s nothing wrong with being fat. But we don’t need to comment on everyone’s body because that might make people uncomfortable,’” she explains. “But none of this has stopped my brain from saying, ‘Oh my God, please don’t let my kids be fat.’” And even while she speaks so positively about bodies to her children, Elena has also done everything she can to prevent their early weight gain. “I breastfed each of them for three years; we eat vegetarian, rarely drink juice, and never set foot in McDonald’s,” she reports. “The motivation for all of this was ‘no fat kids.’”And yet. When her now-eight-year-old daughter reached kindergarten, Elena noticed her “chunking up a little.” The same thing has happened in the past year for her five-year-old son. “It was just this realization of, ‘Oh man, genetics are real,’” she says. “I’ve never said anything about this to my kids. I would never say that to anyone. But I think about it every day.” Part of what Elena is struggling with is the intense desire to spare her kids the anxiety she felt around weight as a child. She’s already told their pediatrician not to discuss weight loss in front of them. But she also worries how their weight reflects on her as a mother. “All of their friends are stick thin. Like, it’s a striking difference. And so, I wonder, do people look at them and think I’m a bad parent?”When I follow up with Elena more than a year after our first conversation, that fear of being a bad parent, of being to blame for her children’s bodies has escalated. “My son gained forty pounds over COVID and has high cholesterol and fatty liver,” she writes in an email. “I really fucked him up. And it’s really awful. I feel terrible.” We’ll talk more about the links between weight gain and health in the next chapter, but whether Elena’s son’s bloodwork is related to his body size or not, I know one thing is true: Elena did not fuck him up. She loved her child and kept him safe during a global pandemic, which has left scars on all of our bodies, hearts, and minds in complex ways. Subjecting him to the same kind of perpetual weight anxiety that Elena experienced as a child is unlikely to help, as we’ll see in Chapter 3. But I am not surprised that this is the solution she reaches for: “We’re going to a healthy weight clinic in January and I’m back on Weight Watchers.”Elena is responding to the same cultural narratives that judged Anamarie Regino’s mother before her, Bruch’s Italian and Jewish immigrant mothers before both of them, and Black mothers from the time they were enslaved. These narratives predate the modern obesity epidemic, which is to say, they’ve also shaped it. As the first data on the rise in children’s body size was unfolding, doctors, researchers, and public health officials immediately turned the conversation to parental responsibility: how to make parents “aware” of their children’s weight, and how to get parents to make better decisions about the family’s food and activity habits. “The researchers in this camp suggest that we need to educate mothers about how to determine whether their children weigh too much,” noted Natalie Boero, PhD, a sociologist at San Jose State University, in an essay for The Fat Studies Reader published in 2009. “Implicit in this critique of American culture is a blame of working mothers for allowing their children to watch too much television, for not having their eating habits more closely monitored, and for relying on convenience foods for meals.”“Implicit in this critique of American culture is a blame of working mothers for allowing their children to watch too much television, for not having their eating habits more closely monitored, and for relying on convenience foods for meals.”Research began to pile up pinpointing links between children’s higher body weights and these kinds of poor parenting decisions. And this has resulted in tangible limitations on how fat people, especially fat women, are allowed to parent. As comic storyteller Phoebe Potts explores in her 2021 one-woman show Too Fat for China, many countries ban fat parents from adopting. In addition to China (where Potts was rejected for having a BMI of 29.5), BMI has also been a deal breaker for adoption proceedings in South Korea, Taiwan, and Thailand as well as parts of Australia, the United Kingdom, and the United States. And, as I reported for the New York Times Magazine in 2019, it has become a common practice for infertility clinics to deny in vitro fertilization and other treatments to mothers above a certain body weight.It’s easy to classify stories like Anamarie Regino’s as rare and exceptional, the sad, salacious stuff of daytime talk shows that blow up in brief Twitter storms and then become memorialized in internet memes but don’t factor into our everyday lives. But every time we put a mother on trial for making her child fat, we put all mothers on trial for the size and shape of their children’s bodies. For moms like Elena, it’s nearly impossible to separate out her fear of judgment from her fear of fat because we’ve always dealt with these as one and the same in our culture. It’s also incredibly difficult to separate her experience of anti-fat bias from her fear for her child’s health, because what we know about kids, weight, and health has been informed and shaped by that same stigma. This is why, in almost every interview I do with someone who has lived with an eating disorder, they tell me about what their mother said or did about their weight and how it contributed to their struggle. The “war on childhood obesity” of the past forty years has normalized the notion that parents, but especially mothers, must take responsibility for their child’s weight, and must prioritize that responsibility above their own relationship with their child as the ultimate expression of maternal love. And almost nobody pushed that message more fervently than the most famous mother ever to take on this fight: former First Lady Michelle Obama.DIET CULTURE IN THE WHITE HOUSEIn November 2008, it was then president-elect Barack Obama who gave an interview to Parents magazine where he explained how “Malia was getting a little chubby.” He described how he and Michelle got serious about the problem and made changes to the family’s diet. According to Michelle, the result “was so significant that the next time we visited our pediatrician, he was amazed.” When the Obama family arrived at the White House, First Lady Michelle Obama made fighting the war on childhood obesity her central mission, perhaps at least in part because it felt like a safe issue for the nation’s Mom in Chief to take on as she battled extreme levels of scrutiny and misogynoir as the first Black First Lady. She told the story about Malia and the pediatrician repeatedly when promoting her “Let’s Move” initiative, which ran from 2010 to 2016. “The thought that I was maybe doing something that wasn’t good for my kids was devastating,” she said of that doctor’s appointment, in a 2016 speech to a group of parenting bloggers. “And maybe some of you can relate, but as an overachiever, I was like, ‘Wait, what do you mean, I’m not getting an A in motherhood? Is this like a B-? A C+?’”In another speech, Obama spoke more directly to parents’ failings, saying, “Back when we were all growing up, most of us led lives that naturally kept us at a healthy weight,” before describing her own idyllic childhood as full of healthy habits like walking to school, playing outside, eating home-cooked meals with green vegetables, and saving ice cream as a special treat, all because her parents imposed such policies whether kids liked it or not. “But somewhere along the line, we kind of lost that sense of perspective and moderation,” implying that kids’ weights are rising because parents have become too lax and indulgent. Obama also painted a grim picture of what kids’ lives had become, thanks to this loss of parenting standards: “Kids [ . . . ] are struggling to keep up with their classmates, or worse yet, they’re stuck on the sidelines because they can’t participate. You see how kids are teased or bullied. You see kids who physically don’t feel good, and they don’t feel good about themselves,” she said in a 2010 speech to the School Nutrition Association. Later in the speech, she added: “And by the way, today one of the most common disqualifiers for military service is actually obesity.” References to military readiness are sprinkled throughout Obama’s “Let’s Move” speeches, reinforcing the “war” rhetoric around weight first popularized in the 1990s by Koop and Clinton, but this time placing kids on the battlefield.By 2013, Obama was putting the responsibility for childhood obesity even more squarely on parents:When it comes to the health of our kids, no one has a greater impact than each of us do as parents. [ . . . ] Research shows that kids who have at least one obese parent are more than twice as likely to be obese as adults. So as much as we might plead with our kids to “do as I say, and not as I do,” we know that we can’t lie around on the couch eating French fries and candy bars and expect our kids to eat carrots and run around the block.The “Let’s Move” campaign often portrayed the physical activity part of fighting obesity as fun; Obama hosted dance parties at public schools and went on TV for a push-up contest with Ellen DeGeneres and to dance with Big Bird. Nutrition activists were frustrated that Obama often seemed more interested in dance parties than in holding large food corporations to higher standards. “‘Move more’ is not politically loaded. ‘Eat less’ is,” wrote Marion Nestle, PhD, a professor of nutrition, food studies, and public health at New York University in a 2011 blog post. “Everyone loves to promote physical activity. Trying to get the food industry to budge on product formulations and marketing to kids is an uphill battle that confronts intense, highly paid lobbying.”Meanwhile, although anti-hunger activists mostly supported Obama’s goals of reforming school lunch programs, there was some quiet resignation in that community that she had chosen to focus on childhood obesity, which accounted for 19.7 percent of kids aged six to seventeen when Barack Obama was elected in 2008, instead of food insecurity, which was arguably the bigger issue, impacting 21 percent of all American households with children. But the relationship between hunger and fatness has long been fraught with stigma: In the early 2000s, conservatives began to argue that the United States Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, formerly known as food stamps) and other federal food programs should be abolished because, they claimed, poor Americans couldn’t be hungry when so many of them were fat. “We’re Feeding the Poor as if They’re Starving,” ran the headline of a 2002 Washington Post column by Douglas Besharov, director of the American Enterprise Institute’s Social and Individual Responsibility Project. “Today the central nutritional problem facing the poor [ . . . ] is not too little food, but too much of the wrong food,” he wrote.In fact, as we’ll see in Chapter 3, it’s possible to be both fat and not eating nearly enough food. But rather than clarify this misconception, anti-hunger organizations, pediatric health, and nutrition organizations, as well as journalists like Michael Pollan and Eric Schlosser, and public health researchers like Nestle, set out to document how our modern “toxic food environment” represented an immediate threat to the health of all children. Very quickly, fighting childhood obesity became a progressive cause deeply intertwined with protecting SNAP and other social safety net programs. But when Obama had to pitch a legislative agenda, she needed to pick an issue that would spark outrage among liberals and conservatives alike. And framing kids’ weight as a matter of good parenting and personal responsibility was easier to sell across the aisle. “I do think the administration cared about fighting hunger, but it’s definitely not what they led with,” one anti-hunger advocate told me. “I’m not sure what political calculations they made around that. Part of it is that I think people just have a really hard time understanding the intersection of obesity and hunger.”Obama did talk openly about the fact that poor children of color tended to weigh more than wealthier white children. But by zeroing in on their weight, she steered the conversation away from dismantling oppression or shoring up social safety net programs. Instead, Obama championed an in-depth overhaul of school nutrition standards, which culminated in the Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010. That piece of legislation is now hailed as a centerpiece of Obama’s progressive legacy; it’s the reason you see whole grains on school lunch menus and fewer vending machines in schools. It also expanded after-school programs’ supper offerings around the country and brought free school lunch and breakfast to over thirty thousand schools nationwide, both of which were huge wins for the anti-hunger community. But what progressives discuss less often is the fact that those school initiatives were paid for by pulling funds from SNAP, ending a temporary increase in food stamp funding five months earlier than expected. The original bill took money from a different pot, but when the Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry marked up the bill, they quietly shifted the funding source. Money that low-income families had been using to pay for dinner now covered their kids’ tab for lunch.Over a decade later, the question of the Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act funding is still a sore spot with many food and hunger activists, all of whom declined to go on record to discuss what happened. “We believe that kids deserve the healthiest meals possible. There are lots of good things in that act, but paying for it through SNAP just didn’t make any sense to us,” an anti-hunger activist who worked on the bill told me. Indeed, over 50 percent of SNAP recipients are children, and several studies have shown that when you cut a household’s food budget, the nutritional quality of family meals drops fast. Anti-hunger groups lobbied Democrats to block votes on the bill for several months, leading to bitter disagreements with the child nutrition organizations they had previously considered allies. The anti-hunger groups worried about families falling off a financial cliff, but the nutrition groups were focused on achieving their nutrition standards overhaul. “An additional five months of the temporary increase in SNAP funding is a price worth paying for a lifetime of reforms and ten years of resources to address childhood hunger and obesity,” argued Margo Wootan, who was then director of nutrition policy at the Center for Science in the Public Interest, in a piece by TheHill.com. “This bill wasn’t a Sophie’s Choice. It was more like choosing between your child and your pet fish. Like the temporary increase in SNAP funding, goldfish never live long anyway.”However Michelle Obama herself felt about the funding decision, the Obama administration sided with the nutrition advocates to get the bill passed. And it’s clear that Obama’s own passion for nutrition and health meant she viewed dieting as a necessary evil for both parents and kids. “I have to tell you, this new routine was not very popular at first,” Obama told the parenting bloggers in 2016. “I still remember how the girls would sit at the kitchen table and I’d sort out their lunches, and they would sit with their little sorry apple slices and their cheese sticks. [ . . . ] They’d have these sad little faces. They would speak longingly of their beloved snack foods that were no longer in our pantry.” Obama also spoke longingly of her own beloved, banned foods: “I could live on French fries,” she told the New York Times in 2009, explaining that she doesn’t because “I have hips.” Instead, she follows a strict diet and exercise routine.I want to stop here and note just how much scrutiny Obama has faced personally about her body size and shape. In her latest book, The Light We Carry, she talks about becoming aware of her “differentness” as a tall Black woman when attending Princeton, and that experience only intensified during her husband’s first presidential campaign and throughout their time in the White House. I remember watching her wave on television from some early campaign stop and noticing that her upper arms jiggled a little; a few months later, the jiggling had stopped, and it seemed like everyone was talking about Obama’s sheath dresses and toned biceps, which were nicknamed “Thunder” and “Lightning” by New York Times columnist David Brooks, who thought she should “cover up.” And much of the public discourse about Obama’s body was racialized, because she was our first Black First Lady and therefore was in a position “to present to the world an African-American woman who is well educated, hardworking, a good mother, and married,” noted the feminist historian Amy Erdman Farrell, PhD, in Fat Shame. Obama’s job was to reject the mammy, the welfare queen, and every other derogatory stereotype about Black women, and thinness was a part of how she did that. Depriving her kids and herself of French fries was “an ideological lesson, teaching the girls how to survive in a world that will scrutinize their bodies unmercifully for signs of inferiority and primitivism,” writes Farrell. “Fatness is one of those signs, this lesson teaches, one too dangerous to evoke.”It’s impossible to say how conscious Obama was (or is now) of the potential downsides of taking such a restrictive, even authoritarian, approach to food for herself and her children. She acknowledges in The Light We Carry that her “fearful mind” “hates how I look, all the time and no matter what,” and recalls envying smaller girls like the cheerleaders at her high school: “Some of those girls were approximately the size of one of my legs.” But she also makes frequent casual references to the joys of vigorous exercise and bonding with friends through “spa weekends” that include a punitive schedule of three workouts a day. And while she argues that the way out of anxiety and fear is to celebrate our differentness as a strength, Obama never names a larger body as one of hers.In terms of her public agenda, it’s worth noting that her speeches also frequently included disclaimers that “this isn’t about how kids look, it’s about how kids feel.” But her office ignored the lobbying efforts of fat activists and even mainstream child nutrition experts like Ellyn Satter, a therapist and nutritionist who developed the “Division of Responsibility” framework for feeding children that we’ll discuss in Part 2. “Don’t talk about childhood obesity,” she implored in an open letter to Obama. “Research shows that children who are labeled overweight or obese feel flawed in every way—not smart, not physically capable, and not worthy. [ . . . ] Such labeling is not only counterproductive, it’s also unnecessary.”Satter also wrote an opinion piece for the New York Times, which ran alongside several other critiques of “Let’s Move,” including one from Alwyn Cohall, MD, a professor of sociomedical sciences at Columbia University and director of the Harlem Health Promotion Center, who argued, “Public health interventions that address the real reasons why people gain weight and suffer from chronic diseases will not ostracize or discriminate because they are not focused on the surface level symptoms, but rather on the more profound reasons why they occur.”Obama never appears to have addressed this criticism directly, though she did begin to add lines like “I don’t want our children to be weight-obsessed,” to her public talking points and in her 2021 Netflix show Waffles + Mochi, she takes the focus off weight entirely to instead teach kids how to have fun trying new foods (mostly vegetables). But the “Let’s Move” rhetoric around parents taking responsibility for their kids’ weight tied in nicely with our larger cultural narrative of weight as a matter of personal choice. And the way she downgraded herself as a mom when Malia’s weight became a problem made Obama relatable to other mothers taught to judge themselves by this same standard.Today’s generation of parents grew up embedded within the war on childhood obesity. Some of us were its direct victims, like Anamarie, Colleen, and Elena. The rest of us represent a kind of collateral damage— even if we were thin kids, even if we didn’t feel pressure to diet ourselves, we still internalized its key lessons: Fat people can never be healthy. Fat people can never be happy. Fat children are less lovable. And parents, especially mothers, of fat children, are doing something wrong unless they are fighting that fatness relentlessly with apples, cheese sticks, and a “take no prisoners” mindset. “To her mother, she is beautiful,” Lisa Belkin wrote of four-year-old Anamarie in the 2001 the New York Times Magazine piece, before hastening to add that “Martinez-Regino is not so blind that she does not see what others see.”Reading that, I paused to consider how much harm happens when parents must define their children, and their own parental success, by body size in this way. What was lost, in those three months of forced separation but also throughout Anamarie’s childhood, and Colleen’s, and Elena’s, and those of so many others? What if Anamarie’s mom had just been allowed to see her child, and love her for who she was? What if all parents got to do that with and for our kids?

It's our April Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering Ozempic, clogs, chafing, and what if you just don't want your kid to be fat. If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. It's just $5 a month or $50 for the year—and you get the first week free!Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctors, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSSellTradePlusUniversal Standard body shortsGirlfriend Collective also has a shorts body suit thingCasey Johnston's couch-to-barbell programVirginia's book launchDacy Gillespie, Mindful ClosetJia Tolentino’s Ozempic pieceThe mainstream media's bad Ozempic coverageMarch mailbag episodeKatherine ZavodniReclaiming "treats"the lunchbox pieceVirginia's Charlotte Stone clogs Clogs for wider feetClogs with a strapCorinne, resident Burnt Toast underwear expert.Panty DropKade & VosChafing Shorts: Snag, Thigh SocietyMegaBabe Thigh RescueTrouble Cookies.Mother GrainsBob’s Red Mill sorghum flourTrue & Co brasCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet body liberation journalism.---VirginiaYou’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.CorinneAnd I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.VirginiaAnd it is time for your April mailbag episode! We have so many good questions this month. A lot of parenting food questions. I think maybe because I just ran the lunchbox piece in the newsletter it’s on everybody’s minds. But also, as usual, some fat fashion stuff. Clogs are coming up later. And Ozempic, because obviously. So it’s gonna be a good one.CorinneThis is also a paywalled episode, which means to hear the whole thing, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It’s just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Here’s how to join us.VirginiaSo before we dive in, how are you doing? What’s new with you, Corinne?CorinneI’m doing well. One thing that’s new with me is: I just signed up to do a powerlifting meet. So I’m feeling nervous. VirginiaWell, yeah. Is this like a competition thing, where people come and watch? CorinneI think so. I mean, obviously, I’ve never done something like this before. It’s in Albuquerque, and it’s being run by my gym. And it’s all women’s. VirginiaThat sounds very cool. CorinneI’m just having a little of like, Oh, what did I do? Let’s see. Wow. Am I going to be the most amateur, weakest person there? I might.VirginiaBut you’ll still be super strong and amazing. Because the weakest person at a powerlifting competition is still the strongest person in most other rooms.CorinneThat’s a good point. And I think one great thing about lifting is, it’s really more about your own goals and competing with yourself. But still.VirginiaSo is it like whoever lifts the most is the winner?CorinneSo my understanding is very loose, but I know there are different weight classes. So you compete against people who are roughly around the same size?.VirginiaInteresting. Okay.CorinneAnd then I think it’s a cumulative weight of how much you lift, like combined squat, deadlift, bench press. VirginiaWow, that’s so cool. Julia Turshen recently did one of these.CorinneI feel like I was slightly influenced by Julia Turshen.VirginiaDid she enable you? Julia, good job! The pictures and videos she posted of it looked super exciting. And it looked like a very professional athletic setting. I would be intimidated for sure.CorinneThe other thing that I’m sure we’ll end up talking about again, but you have to wear a singlet which is like, where am I gonna find a singlet? And knee socks.VirginiaKnee socks! Why knee socks? CorinneI’m like, oh my God, I’m never gonna find knee socks that fit me, but I’m trying to figure out if I can wear Universal Standard body shorts as a singlet, because I already have one of those. VirginiaThat feels like a great solution. CorinneIt’s singlet-esque? But I don’t know what the actual requirements are.VirginiaGirlfriend Collective also has a shorts body suit thing.CorinneI should look into that. VirginiaBut I feel like you should be able to work with what you have. Especially for your first one. Once you’re a pro and doing this all the time, you’ll get, like, something with rhinestones. CorinneOnce I’m a sponsored Olympic athlete. Yes.VirginiaI love that like we’re getting to follow along on the journey. Obviously we’re going to need another installment on this afterwards.CorinneOkay, yes. And just to be clear, the meet isn’t until July, so, so I have a lot of time to think about it.VirginiaI’m just saying though. A few months ago, you were recommending Casey Johnston and her couch-to-barbell program. And you were like, “I’m just using a broomstick.”CorinneIt’s true. VirginiaAnd now!CorinneIt’s true and now I’m lifting actual pounds.VirginiaVery, very cool. CorinneYeah, what’s new with you? VirginiaI feel like what’s new with me is that I am surviving, not thriving a little bit. So this is going to come out in mid-April. So we’ll be two weeks out from book launch. So I will either be better or I will be way worse. I mean, having had two children, it’s sort of similar to the last month of pregnancy when you’re like, it’s all you can think about, this thing is happening, but you have no control over it. I mean, at least with the book, you know, like the date it’s coming. Which with pregnancy, they have yet to really figure out, unless you’re scheduling. But I counted it up this morning, I have recorded 18 podcasts so far. Of other people’s podcasts. Like for talking about the book. 18 people’s podcasts. CorinneOh whoa. That’s wild.VirginiaAnd like, seven of them were in the last week and a half? So I feel like my voice is hanging on by a thread. And I’m just getting a little mush-brained about it. I need to step back a little.Obviously, I am super grateful. I love that people want me to talk about the book. I love that people are excited about the book. I cannot wait for it to be out. But it’s just at a point where there are a lot of details. Like, review all the press release materials, review the marketing plan…. I forgot we were recording today. And it’s not the first thing I’ve forgotten. Like, I forgot the kids had a dentist appointment. We made it, but I’m just like, my brain is holding too many pieces of information. Some things are getting dropped. I’m just coming in with a sort of scattered energy. But I’ve got the Throat Coat Tea that I’m living on right now. And we’re gonna do it! CorinneDo you have any upcoming book promo stuff that you’re really excited to do?VirginiaWell, I did an interview yesterday that I can’t talk about yet, because I don’t think it will be out by the time this launches. CorinneTop secret. VirginiaThere are two top secret ones that will be coming out in the week or two after this podcast episode. And they’re both very exciting. And I will say that I was very happy with my outfit for one. So that was good. And the other one the outfit matters less because it is not visual. I will say no more! Preorder FAT TALK!And yeah, that part’s been fun, actually figuring out clothes for like the book tour Dacy has been helping me and maybe some time we’ll do a follow up about finding clothes for this. Because it’s a very specific level of, how dressy do you want to be versus comfortable? So maybe there will be an essay of what I wore for the book tour.CorinneI would love to read that.VirginiaOkay, so we’re going to do some questions! The first one is a hot take opportunity. This came in over Instagram multiple times. People would like to know what we saw of Jia Tolentino’s Ozempic piece in The New Yorker.CorinneOkay, well, now is my time to be embarrassed when I admit that I read it really lightly. I did a really light skim sort of read, and was like, seems fine. And then I’ve seen everyone else being like, “This article is horrible.” And I’ve been like, wow, I really need to revisit that and find out why people are so upset.VirginiaI’m glad to hear people are saying they’re upset! I felt like no one was talking about it at all for a little bit. And I was like, what is happening? I feel like the New York magazine piece came out, which I wrote about and that was not great. And then this piece comes out two weeks later, and I’m just like, why? Why did it come out? It’s the same piece really. And I want to be clear that I love Jia’s work. I loved Trick Mirror. I think she writes phenomenal stuff. The piece she did on Angela Garbes last year was just incredible. And this was… not that. It is very much centering the story on thin people who would like to be thinner if they take Ozempic. There’s one fat person interviewed for the story. And, you know, of course, every fat person is entitled to their own experience of fatness. But her quotes just reinforced so many stereotypes. She talks about wanting to lose weight because she feels like she can’t hike or run at her current size. And it’s like, come on. We can do better. CorinneIf you want to hike and run, you could work on hiking and running?VirginiaRight! There are so many fat hikers and runners on Instagram. CorinneI thought the compounding pharmacy thing was kind of interesting.VirginiaOh, like explaining how sort of like loosey goosey it is and getting the drugs? CorinneBecause I’ve seen a lot of people on TikTok being like, I’m getting this patented drug from a compounding pharmacy. And I’m like, wait, is that real? Like, what is that? So I thought that part was interesting.VirginiaIt was interesting. But when she goes through the process of getting it herself, I always just worry—this is the eating disorder handbook stuff.Corinne True true. You’re literally telling people how to do it. VirginiaAnd I get that that’s not hard to find. We all have Google. But is that something The New Yorker should be doing? Does The New Yorker need to teach us how to get our weight loss drugs? I don’t know. I feel like the general trend in the Ozempic coverage–And this is not just Jia, not just New York Magazine. But by and large, this coverage has this underlying question of: If we have now found a silver bullet that will make people thin, does that mean we can just forget about anti fat bias? And that is so dark. We cannot just say, now that we have a way to make everybody thin, it’s okay to hate fat people, because we can just make them thin.CorinneThat’s a good point.VirginiaI’m not judging anyone’s individual decisions about this. But this larger discourse is not helpful. That’s my hot, grouchy take. CorinneThat’s the hot take! I would love to know also, if any listeners have strong feelings about it? VirginiaYes. Comments are open!CorinneOkay, the next question is:Q: The one thing I can’t shake as a new mom is worrying about making my daughter fat. How do I shake that? I grew up fat and it was hard. I want better for her. But does that mean dieting?VirginiaThis is a very understandable fear. But no, it does not mean dieting. CorinneI want to validate this parent’s worries, because you're coming from a place where it sounds like you struggled a lot. And you don’t want your kids to struggle, and that totally makes sense.VirginiaI think what I’m stuck on is, “I grew up fat and it was hard.” Yes, absolutely. Not denying that. But was it hard because you were fat? Or was it hard because the world made fat not okay?And so, this is kind of the Ozempic thing, right? Is the answer to erase fatness by which we mean erase fat people? Or is the answer systemic change and unlearning this bias on a personal level? But I know, that is a terrible question. You cannot make all those systemic changes by yourself. That is not doable. So it is really, really hard.CorinneThe one thing that’s sort of not explicit in this question is whether the kid is actually fat.VirginiaShe says she’s a new mom. So I’m thinking she has a baby. So she probably doesn’t know? CorinneBecause my next thought was, you could talk to your kid about it being hard. But maybe not for a newborn.VirginiaBut maybe start now! Get the conversation going.CorinneStart thinking about it. You can talk to yourself about it. I think now might be a time to start therapy. VirginiaTherapy, always a great option.You are not going to make your daughter thin or fat. You don’t actually control her body size. The number of factors that go into determining body sizes is this sort of endless and murky list, and no one really knows what are the largest drivers. But how you feed her, and how much you make her run around are not the largest drivers of her body size. And putting all your energy there is only going to cause damage, which you yourself probably know, because when you say it was hard, I’m guessing that some kind of childhood dieting might have been a piece of that.So I feel like we need to let you off the hook of the “I’m gonna make her fat.” She may be fat. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not your fault. And what she really needs is for you to unconditionally accept her body.CorinneI also think this could be a really good time to think of some advocacy you could do, whether that’s looking into school policies about bullying or even at the legislative level, like laws about anti fat bias. Or just trying to be an advocate in your community for body liberation or fat liberation? VirginiaI love that. And I just wanna say this is hard. It is really unfair that that is asked of us. But that is where we are on this issue. And we’re only going to make progress if we all approach it from that perspective. CorinneAnd I want to reiterate: The thing about bias is, the solution is never to get rid of the people we’re biased against. Or to change them somehow.VirginiaRight. So it’s okay. Maybe your daughter is going to be fat and how are you going to support her and advocate for her and make your home a safe space for her body?CorinneAll right, I’m going to read the next one too: Q: I am trying very hard to be very neutral about food with my son who’s four years old. From the start, I have not labeled foods as good or bad. I have not restricted access to sweets or desserts. But lately, I’ve started questioning this. I’ve always felt pressure because I am not able to manage cooking meals. So from the start, my son was fed using a grazing technique where I would put together various foods and he would eat what he wanted. As he has gotten older, he is more specific in his tastes in a way that feels normal to me, pretty much macaroni and cheese or similar foods most of the time. There are other things he will eat, but I feel a lot of grief about my inability to get it together and provide regular hot balanced meals, also for myself. Recently, I’ve been trying to limit his intake of sweets just a little bit and it feels like a backside but I’ve been confused. Only two cookies and even suggesting he eats something before he gets the cookies. This week’s mailbag episode made me reorient when you talked about not doing this and reminded me why I wanted to avoid this restriction based language. And I admit the reason I started thinking about this was twofold. I filled out a research survey that made me admit a lot of things about our household eating that I feel low level guilty about and I felt the sting of perceived societal shaming.And my son started talking about treats. I was a bit miffed as categorizing something as a treat, as opposed to food which he labeled the rest as, was something I was trying to avoid. Then I realized this could have come from daycare television, the fact that we give the dog treats, and so I am overreacting. I find it’s so hard to be consistent in my parenting in many avenues and food encroaches on that too. Giving food as a reward for example, this is something I do for myself, and I like it. But perhaps it is part of the problem of saving food for a special occasion as opposed to having it because you want it.I need some perspective, please. Is it ever useful to direct a child to a more balanced diet as opposed to just modeling it? I do not mean telling them that specific foods help your eyes. What a relief to see that debunked, but more that many foods are yummy. And basically some form of kid specific ‘everything in moderation.’VirginiaThe first thing I want to say is: You are doing a great job. You are feeding your child. It does not matter that you are not cooking. And that the food is not hot or homemade. It does not matter at all. You are meeting your son’s needs by making sure he is fed every day, and making sure that he has enough to eat in order to grow. That’s the most important thing and you’re doing it. You’re winning! You’re doing great. And this really drives home for me the stigma we have around the idea that you can’t feed kids processed foods, you have to cook meals. All of this is so unhelpful because there are just so many reasons why that model of family meals is not a good fit. There could be disability issues. There could be cost issues, time bandwidth issues, all sorts of hurdles. There could also just be that you don’t like cooking. You can still be a good parent and not like cooking. It’s not a requirement. SoI just want to encourage you to take some of the shame away. Corinne That’s a great place to start. I totally agree. I was thinking about the study that you mention in FAT TALK about how it doesn’t matter what you’re eating and it much more matters that kids are just eating. VirginiaOh, that’s a quote from Katherine Zavodni, who’s one of my favorite pediatric dietitians. So teaser for everyone who hasn’t read the book yet, but it’s a quote that I want to put on our fridge! She says, “The most important thing about good nutrition is making sure kids have enough to eat.” Because if you have enough to eat, all the minutiae of micronutrients, and macronutrients tends to work itself out. Now, obviously, there are kids with severe food issues like feeding disorders, allergies or other medical conditions where it may be more complicated. Their nutritional needs may be more specific. But if your kid is not dealing with one of those things, and has enough to eat on any given day, you have done your job as a parent.CorinneAnd you also talked about the studies on family meals, right? And how the benefits come from eating together rather than making sure it’s a home-cooked meal. VirginiaI’m so glad you brought that up. All the research on family dinners, which talks about how important they are for kids’ overall well-being and health—it’s because families are spending time together. So you could do that around breakfast, you could do that around a snack, you could do that in ways that have nothing to do with food. Like maybe you regularly have a long car ride to commute to school and work together. And that’s when you talk and catch up on your day. Kids need connected time with their caregivers. Food is just one helpful way to do it.CorinneIt doesn’t matter if you are eating snack plates, or macaroni. VirginiaSome of my most connected meals with my kids are when we’re eating takeout or bowls of Cheerios for dinner! Because everyone is relaxed and you can focus on each other. And you’re not in this place of, “I put all this work into this meal and nobody likes it.”. So then let’s talk about feeling like you need to limit his intake of sweets. I think you’re going there because you’re feeling ashamed about what you’re doing. So I’m hoping just lifting some of the shame lets you step back from that a little bit. I also think the research shows pretty clearly that requiring kids to eat in very specific ways, like micromanaging their plate by saying “you have to eat something else before you get the cookies” or “only two cookies,” does not. in the long-term, serve kids’ relationship with food. It tends to result in kids who are overly fixated on the foods that have a lot of rules around them. You’re going to find yourself in power struggles where it’s like, why only two cookies, why not three cookies, why not two and a half cookies.Don’t feel bad that you’ve done this, because I think we all get into these sort of panic moments where we do this because we’re just struggling and it feels like the “right thing to do.” But I don’t think it will ultimately serve you or serve your child. I think modeling eating a variety of foods is the best thing we can do. And even using phrases like “balance” or “everything in moderation,” I don’t love because not every day is going to be about moderation. And that can turn into a rule. Because what is “moderation?” And then the last thing I’ll say is, I think we touched on this in a previous episode. But I don’t think treat needs to be a bad word. Yes, we give the dog treats. Dogs’ existences are largely treat-based, at least in my house. We give ourselves food as rewards when we’re stressed out or we need some extra comfort. When we talk about keeping all foods neutral, I think we can take it too far, to this place where it feels like we’re not supposed to have any feelings about food at all. And that is not realistic or fair, or in line with how humans interact with foods.So we do use the word treat in our house. And this came up with the lunchbox piece. because I have a category of treats on the little chart I made for Beatrix and folks were like, “I can’t believe you have a treat category.” And I realized they had a different definition of that word. If you don’t have restrictive rules around when or how much treats you can eat, then treat is a neutral word. It just means foods that feel extra fun. Just something extra fun you want to have on your plate along with your other foods. And if you’re not saying “we only eat treats once a day,” or “we only eat treats on Saturdays;” if it’s not paired with restrictive language, then it’s still keeping foods neutral. Does that make sense?CorinneI think especially with the lunch box example, you’re using treat as a category to make sure you’re getting a treat. That seems really positive.VirginiaBecause I want them to know that those foods are welcome in their lunchboxes. Yes.CorinneOr required, even! VirginiaNone of it’s required, Corinne, they can skip the treat if they want! But it’s a part of the meal. CorinneMaybe that’s a way that this person could reframe it. It feels like you’re hearing your kid say treat and thinking they’re feeling like it’s something to be restricted. When could you be like, “Let’s make sure you’re getting enough treats.”VirginiaThat’s a great re-framing. I hope this helps. This is a big question. And I can tell you’re working through a lot of big stuff. So we would like an update. Please keep us posted!CorinneYou’re doing a great job.VirginiaYes. CorinneI’m gonna read the next one as well. Q: My daughter is in fifth grade. At school she’s often given food in addition to what she brings for her lunch and snacks. Candy is handed out as an incentive. Snacks, as well as non-edible items, are available to purchase with Classroom Bucks earned for good behavior. Several days a week she has after school activities that include a good deal of snacking. For the most part, I’ve accepted that I have no control over what she eats when she’s away from me. However, she is regularly coming home not hungry for the dinner I’ve prepared. It’s becoming more frequent lately that she’ll snack so much at school, and at after school activities, that she will eat only a couple bites of dinner, and occasionally nothing at all. Dinners are usually meals she likes and she always has the opportunity to choose a backup option if she doesn’t. So I don’t think it’s an issue of filling up because she won’t get food she likes at dinner. She chooses and packs her own lunch and snack. We generally have a rule that if you put it on the grocery list, Mom will buy it, which is to say she has a lot of control of choice and regular access to candy and snack foods, both at home and in her lunch.Is it diet culture to expect her to come to dinner ready to eat? Or is it valid for me to feel miffed that she’s already full? And yeah, I realize we’ll all have an off day or skip a meal once in a while. This is becoming a regular occurrence though.VirginiaI don’t think it’s diet culture exactly. I think it’s performative parenting culture a little bit, where we are very tied to this idea that, again, the family dinner is this all-important cornerstone of the day, where we have to provide a certain kind of meal. And that it is only successful if our children eat the meal. If they participate in, and enjoy the meal. And even if we’re like, “they can choose how much they’re hungry for,” if they don’t want to eat it at all, it’s really hard.I say this from extensive personal experience. It’s really hard to not feel like you failed because you’re like, “I just spent 40 minutes making this and you ate two bites and ran away.” But what I also want to say is: 9 out of 10 family dinners in my house involve one or both children eating two bites of the meal and running away. I think it’s very, very, very common at sort of all ages. And yes, it is often because they had a lot of snacks in the afternoon. Because that is when they were really hungry and needed to eat. And so my expectation that 5:30 or 6:00 pm is when we’re all going to sit down and eat this big meal together is out of line with the reality of at 3:30 or 4:30 pm, they are ravenous and need to eat. And so we’re just always going to have that mismatch and it is what it is. Nobody needs to feel bad.CorinneThis relates back a little to the parent who’s feeling guilty about not cooking meals. It’s kind of the flip side where this parent is cooking meals and feeling bad about them.VirginiaI also want to speak to the piece about food given out at school. I don’t love candy being handed out as an incentive in class. And that is not because I don’t want the kids eating the candy. It’s because I think it does play into making candy seem so special and coveted. And for kids who have more restrictive relationships with candy at home, I don’t feel like it’s helpful. Does that make sense? I don’t have a problem with there being a birthday party in class and everyone’s eating cupcakes or candy just being there, like if the teacher just wants to have a candy jar on their desk and kids can help themselves. But it’s layering on the messages about earning the candy that I really don’t love. Because diet culture is going to teach kids so many different ways that you have to earn your treats.But I have not figured out a way to eradicate this practice from the American public school system. It’s a very common tactic. And I think teachers have very, very hard jobs and if handing out M&Ms for getting math problems right makes it easier to do their job? I don’t know, man, I think that’s where we are. CorinneYeah. VirginiaAnd if it’s happening in the context of, your child also has all this great regular access to candy and treats because like you said, you’re involving her in the grocery list and lunch packing and all that, then I don’t think it being handed out as an incentive is going to do that much damage.They can understand that at school, M&Ms are being given as a reward. And at home, there is a bag of M&Ms that I can just eat.CorinneWith the teachers handing out candy as incentives, I’m worried more about the kids who are not getting candy as incentives.VirginiaOh, what a terrible message. That’s so sad. You did this wrong. No candy for you. It is tricky. And I mean, I don’t mind kids purchasing snacks with Classroom Bucks. That feels a little more diffuse to me. That’s giving them some independence. And after school activities should include snacks because the majority of children are starving after school. I think the key here is don’t demonize the way she’s eating because she’s getting her needs met. Just maybe take some pressure off yourself. If dinner is usually something she likes, if there’s an option to choose a backup option and she doesn’t, then she’s just not hungry. CorinneAnd maybe that can take some of the pressure off dinner. Like maybe you just make a snack plate.VirginiaSomething simpler. Or make something you’re really excited to eat.CorinneSomething you like! VirginiaThat’s what I often do when I can tell the kids are not in like super dinner oriented phases. I’m like, Okay, then I’m picking what I want. And we also do a bedtime snack. And in fifth grade, she’s probably staying up late enough that she’s up a few hours after dinner. And if she was really hungry for dinner at 3pm, and then she wasn’t that hungry for real dinner at 6pm, by 8 or 9pm, she probably needs something before she goes to bed. Alright, should I read the next one? Q: My question is about restricting food, not for dietary reasons, but because of the financial and waste concerns. My spouse and I wince when we see our kids drowning their waffles in maple syrup and leaving a plateful of it, eating all the prepackaged expensive foods we try to save for their lunches and eating all the Girl Scout cookies so they don’t have to share them with a sibling.I’ve told my kids that they never need to hide food, but I find them doing so in order to get the last of something like the Oreos they want to keep from their brother. I buy Oreos every time we go to the store, and our house has plenty of sweets and other snack foods, but eventually we will run out of things. How do we keep them out of the scarcity mindset while still dealing with the realities of eating with a family? I really feel you on the syrup. It’s so expensive. CorinneI know I was thinking you’re basically watching your kid pour gold on their pancakes. VirginiaIt’s so much. CorinneI mean this whole question is relatable to me. I definitely had some anxiety growing up about like, I feel like my dad would always eat stuff that I wanted, like leftovers or like the last cookie or something, you know?VirginiaYeah, it’s really tricky because the bummer answer to this is: A finance-based scarcity mindset can be just as damaging as a diet-culture based scarcity mindset.CorinneSo true. VirginiaKids who grow up without enough to eat, or with this sort of ever-present worry about there being enough to eat often end up with some disordered eating stuff down the road, understandably, because when there is food, they’ll feel like, “I have to eat it all. Because I don’t know what I’m going to eat it again.” It’s totally logical. So this can be really tough. And I’m not sure from this question, if you are struggling to afford these foods? Is there a true food insecurity issue in your house? Or if it’s more just, you are on a budget. CorinneYou only go grocery shopping once a week and Oreos don’t last the whole week.VirginiaSo I’m not sure which one we’re dealing with. But I just want to say if affording food is really hard for you, then obviously, your first priority is getting whatever support you can around that. Which could be finding out if you’re eligible for SNAP benefits, making sure your kids are on the school lunch program, all the stuff that I am sure you are already doing. And don’t need me to explain to you.If it’s more just the “Good God, that was a $9 bottle of syrup” moment, I think it’s okay to say to kids, “This is a more expensive food.” So we’re going to be mindful of that. With syrup, if you have little ramekins or bowls, you can say, “We’re going to give everyone their own syrup.” And pour generously! Don’t flood the plate the way they would flood the plate, but pour generously enough so that every kid feels like they have their own and they don’t have to share it.We do this sometimes with something like brownies. Or if we have cake or some dessert that we don’t have as often. When I know the kids are going to be really excited about it, I often will just go ahead and portion it out. Not because I’m trying to control how much they eat. But because I want them to know, “I’m definitely getting mine.” This actually just happened with Cadbury Mini Eggs, which are just a prime example of a scarcity mindset food because you can only get them for a month a year and they’re the best candy. It’s so hard! Dan brought home a big family-size bag from the grocery store. And between me and the girls, it was gone by the next night and he was like, “Really? Really? There are none left?” I think he was mad he didn’t get any. But I was like, “Yeah, no there are none left.” I know that you thought that was a big bag, but we haven’t had these in ages and we’re all real jazzed about it.CorinneYou need to start portioning out some for Dan.VirginiaI suppose that would have been nice of me. CorinneSo if you’re portioning out the brownie—what does that mean? Like you cut the brownies into four squares and give everyone a square? VirginiaI usually give everyone two squares because I feel one brownie is never enough.CorinneOh, you cut them into normal sized pieces. VirginiaOh yes. I just cut up the brownies. But rather than put the pan of brownies in the middle of the table, which might make everyone worry, like, “Am I going to get the piece I want?” Especially because, in my household, center-of-the-pan brownies are highly coveted. It’s a whole thing.  So I’ll just go ahead and be like, “Here’s your center brownie.” So they don’t have to be anxious about whether they’ll get one.Maybe also, talk to your kids about which foods they worry about wanting the most. It’s useful to know what that is. So you can think about how to ease up that fear, in a way that is in line with your budget. But maybe the kid who’s hiding the Oreos, you buy them their own jumbo bag of Oreos and they don’t have to share. And maybe if that’s in your budget, you do that for a few weeks and see how that goes. And maybe every kid gets their own favorite snack food in that kind of quantity, which they don’t have to share with a sibling. And then it’s understood that all the other stuff is shared. It’s not teaching restriction or scarcity to say, “Okay, let’s make sure everyone has their seconds before you have thirds.” That’s manners. That’s okay. CorinneOr to maybe just one week buy like super extra amounts of Oreos and be like, eat as many Oreos as you want this week. VirginiaAnd see what they do with that. That would be interesting.CorinneAll right. Here’s a question for you: How comfortable are your Charlotte Stone clogs?VirginiaThey are comfortable for clogs, is what I would say. And I love clogs very much. But they are a little bit of a scam in that they are not actually the most comfortable shoe. So I do not equate them to sneakers. For sure sneakers are more comfortable. Birkenstocks are more comfortable. But I wear my Charlotte Stone clogs the way other people might wear a ballet flat, or a loafer, like a dressier shoe. And I feel like no dressy shoe is ever really that comfortable. They’re pinchy or they give you blisters. And so by that standard, these are quite comfortable. Because they have a built-in memory foam padding situation. So you’re not walking on a block of wood the way you are with some clogs. I feel like I got shin splints from those, back in the day. They’re definitely more comfortable than that. But I wore them downtown yesterday. And I did move my car to avoid walking two blocks because it was uphill. So I don’t wear them for extensive walking. CorinneBut you would say they’re more comfortable than some clogs?VirginiaI think yes. Of the various cute clog brands.CorinneFashion clogs.VirginiaThey are the most comfortable fashion clog I have tried and I have tried probably three or four brands. Like they’re better than Number Six. They’re better than Swedish Hasbeens. CorinneMy issue is that clogs are always too narrow for me. I can never find clogs that fit.VirginiaYeah, and I mean I have narrower feet, so I don’t know how useful Charlotte Stone is on that front.CorinneThey do have a lot of sizing info. I tried some Charlotte Stone non-clogs, like they had a cute sneaker-ish thing, because they go up to size 12. Which should be what my size is, but they were way too narrow. Like I could not even get my foot in.VirginiaThat’s such a bummer. Somebody could get into the wide width clog market and do very well.CorinneOh God, seriously. I found one clog that works for wide-ish feet. It’s called Haga Trotoffel or something.VirginiaThat sounded like a very accurate pronunciation. CorinneI’ve had a pair, but it’s the non-padded pure wood kind. So it’s just not super comfortable to me.VirginiaThose are rough. Ever since I sprained my ankle, I am very cautious. Where am I going to wear these clogs? What sort of terrain am I walking? I really want to find some cute ones with a strap at the back for more stability. I think Charlotte Stone has ones with a strap that I’m thinking about trying, except I don’t need more clogs. CorinneNumber Six also has some that are really cute and the base is almost flat. That might be more uncomfortable. I don’t know.VirginiaWell I wear the lowest height Charlotte Stone clog. I do not go for their super platforms. I am not 22. That chapter of my life is closed. But they’re not a Dansko clog! Let’s be clear. And, I would say to be realistic that if you live on the east coast, or the Midwest, they’re like, a three month a year shoe. They’re great in the spring. They’re great in the fall. They’re going to be too hot in the summer and they’re going to be useless in the winter. So factor that in. Okay, so next up: Q: I have a question about chafing. Since giving birth for the second time in 2021, my body has changed and I probably fall in the small fat category. I’ve dealt with chafing between my thighs and in the summers before, but now that I have to wear outside clothes and get out of the house more, I am dealing with chafing in the groin area even in the winter, which is the thing I didn’t I don’t have prior experience with. I am looking for recommendations for underwear that have a wide enough gusset to hopefully prevent this. And any other tips to be more comfortable in this regard with this new body of mine? Corinne, you’re the underwear queen!CorinneI have a lot of thoughts about this.VirginiaYou are the resident Burnt Toast underwear expert.CorinneMy first thought is: Are we sure this is a chafing issue? VirginiaOh, what else could it be? CorinneWell, another thing that can happen when you become fat is you get irritation in your skin folds area. So just something to throw out there, because I’ve heard people having confusion around that before. It’s like a yeast infection you can get in your skin folds. It’s like a diaper rash. And you can treat it with diaper rash cream or zinc cream.VirginiaAquaphor?CorinneNo! Aquaphor? Isn’t Aquaphor like Vaseline?VirginiaYeah, but I used it on my kids’ butts when they had diaper rash. CorinneOkay, well, maybe I don’t know anything about diaper rash.VirginiaMaybe that was a bad move.CorinneI feel like a lot of diaper rash cream has zinc in it, and it coats your skin to protect it. VirginiaI know what you’re talking about now.CorinneIn terms of wider gusset underwear, there are not a lot of good options. The one option that I have found out about which I have not tried but have ordered and am currently waiting on is this underwear from the brand Panty Drop. I’m kind of confused about what’s going on with them because it seems like they merged with another brand which was Kade & Vos. Okay. But they claimed to have wider gusset underwear. And another thing you could consider would be boxers or boxer briefs.VirginiaI was wondering about even a boy’s short underwear. Something that has a longer thigh situation.CorinneIt goes down further.VirginiaOr bike shorts as underwear. CorinneAnd I mean, people definitely make chafing shorts. VirginiaYes! I just ordered some from Snag.CorinnePeople also like Thigh Society. So you could shop around and look for chafing shorts that you could just wear as underwear. VirginiaRight, just under your jeans or other hard pants, And where are you on MegaBabe or the other chafing balms? Do you have one you like?CorinneI have MegaBabe. I almost never need it. Just, whatever way that I’m designed, it’s not an issue for me right now. Virginia I get chafing but I haven’t tried MegaBabe. I actually have a very low tech hack. But I use Old Spice antiperspirant, which is my husband’s antiperspirant, and I use that as my antiperspirant. And so then I just put it between my thighs as well. And I find that holds up pretty well. I sometimes have to reapply it during the day, like on a very hot day. And one of the reasons I think I don’t wear dresses as much anymore is, chafing is an automatic reality in dresses. And some shorts too, depending on how they’re cut. So we feel you. This is a reality of fat life for sure! CorinneIf you have fat friends, you can talk to them about it because a lot of people have this problem.VIrginiaIt’s an evergreen conversation. Everyone will have opinions.CorinneOkay, next question: Q: Any tips on changing the dialogue with mom friends or friends in general who are progressive and informed otherwise, but still mired in diet culture? I feel like I’m the only one who isn’t intermittent fasting or doing keto.VirginiaI posted a meme on Instagram today, there was something like to all the women who are bullying each other to order salads, aren’t you so sad that you hate your life so much. And my DMs are currently flooded with people asking some version of this question: How do I keep going out to dinner with my friends who are so in this space? One person was telling me about being out to dinner and this group of women were trying to split tacos. Like tacos are small to start with. And they were all like, “Well, I can’t eat a whole one.”CorinneI’m like, “Am I ordering 9 or 12.”VirginiaCorrect. The number of tacos I need to be full is a very high number. I would not split one in two. It’s already only two bites!CorinneIt’s like trying to split a popsicle.VirginiaIt’s a total mess. So I feel like my first piece of advice is, can you make new friends? I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I know. CorinneMy first piece of advice is just like, Man up. Tell them you don’t want to talk about it.VirginiaThat’s better than mine.CorinneI mean, maybe it’s harsh. It’s a little tough love. Your advice is good too. There’s gotta be other people out there who are sick of this. Like, every person I know could benefit from some examination of their relationship with diet culture. So I just feel like, you can’t be the only one who’s struggling.VirginiaThere are almost 30,000 people subscribed to this newsletter, who probably feel the same way as you because why else are they reading the newsletter and listening to this podcast?.CorinneOkay. Actually, this is a little off topic. But can I tell you something? So, as previously discussed, I go to the gym. I have a trainer there. And this week, when I saw her, she was like, “Hey, so this person contacted me who found me through Burnt Toast.” VirginiaYay! CorinneSo I’m just saying what that basically means is there is another person in the city that I live in, who’s reading Burnt tToast who I don’t know. And none of my friends know. VirginiaRight! But who maybe would be an awesome friend. CorinneOr who at least also has some skepticism of diet culture stuff.  So that’s got to be true for you as well.VirginiaAnd you have powerlifting in common! Yes, in my close group of friends, we really never talk about this. And maybe it’s because they read the newsletter and know that I’m not the friend for this. CorinneThey’re scared. VirginiaBut we have so many better conversations because this is off the table for us. And we never made a conscious decision to do it. It just kind of happened. I do feel like in the past, we had more diet-y conversations. And we’ve all kind of shifted away from it. And it’s been lovely and great for our friendships. And so maybe you do need to officially say it to these people: I love you. But I just don’t want to talk about diets. This really isn’t good for me. I just end up feeling shitty about myself. And there are so many more interesting things to talk about here.CorinneYeah. I think it’s good for people to know that too. If people are totally unaware that talking about their diets constantly is hurting people, then they should know. And they deserve to know that.VirginiaCompletely agree. And often this talk is very performative because we think we have to talk this way. And so you being the first one to say, “What if we just ordered what we wanted to eat and didn’t do this whole dance?” I call it like playing the game of Salad Chicken, where you’re like,“Could I order the pasta? No, not if she’s ordering the salad.” Like, if you could not do that? Man, dinner is gonna be way more fun. So just give people permission to not do it and see what happens. And if they really can’t get there, then I circle back to: Can you have other friends? Or can you say to them, I don’t want to spend our time talking about this but I’m really sorry you’re struggling and how can I support you?CorinneOh my God, I love the idea of responding to someone who’s excited about intermittent fasting with, “I’m sorry, you’re struggling.”VirginiaHow can I support you in this starvation?CorinneI’m so sorry that you’re not eating food.VirginiaYou’re right. That might not be the moment.CorinneNo, I like it. VirginiaI think it could work? I think it’s an option. CorinneI mean, I think this is also that sort of situation where you can be like, “It’s so interesting that we’re all so focused on our weird diets.”VirginiaThe patented Corinne “It’s so interesting!”CorinneJust an anthropological, outsider observation.VirginiaIt’s always, always a good moment for that. All right. Should we do Butter? CorinneYes. I do have a Butter. What I want to recommend is this recipe called Trouble Cookies. It’s from a cookbook called Mother Grains, but it’s also on the Bon Appetit website. And I feel like it’s a little annoying to recommend because it does have a really annoying to find ingredient which is sorghum flour. [Reminder that if you preorder FAT TALK from Split Rock Books, you can also take 10 percent off any book mentioned on the pocast!]Shop the Burnt Toast Bookstore!VirginiaOh Lord.CorinneBut you can order it from the internet!VirginiaCorinne will find a link for you.CorinneBob’s Red Mill’s has it. So if you have that kind of grocery store. Anyways, they also have coconut cashews and toffee bits and are extremely delicious. I’ve been trying to get my mom to make them for like a month and now I’m moving on to the Burnt Toast community. Please make Trouble Cookies and tell me how good they are.VirginiaI will try them. I will report back if I can get it together to get sorghum flour. I could use a new cookie. We’re just a standard chocolate chip cookie household. CorinneI feel like chocolate chip cookies are good. But sometimes, a different direction is really good, too. VirginiaIs there chocolate in it? CorinneNo, it’s coconut toffee bits cashews.VirginiaCould I put chocolate chips in instead of the toffee bits.CorinneI mean, I feel like you could? But it’s really good. Do you not like caramel-y, coconut-y stuff?VirginiaAmy will tell you it is very hard for me to have a dessert that doesn’t have chocolate in it.CorinneOkay, this one is not for you. VirginiaI’m just always like, but where’s the chocolate? CorinneOh my God.VirginiaWhat am I doing here?Corinne I’m the opposite. And I mean, I really like chocolate. But I also really like a coconut-y caramel-y vibe. VirginiaI do too. I’m just like, but how much better if there was chocolate. That’s all I’m saying.CorinneI feel like maybe you could dip it in chocolate? VirginiaAll right. I don’t know. I’ll try them out. I’ll report back. Maybe I’ll do half the batch with the toffee, half the batch with the chocolate chips. I can tell you my kids won’t touch them if there’s no chocolate. So that’s like a non-starter. CorinneReally? Wow.VirginiaOh, please. CorinneI feel like a lot of kids don’t like chocolate. VirginiaThat is not the case in the Sole-Smith home. See previous anecdote regarding Mini Eggs consumed in a day. And center brownies. It’s very clear what we’ve come here to do.CorinneAll right, what’s your Butter?VirginiaAll right, my Butter is, I am breaking up with underwire bras. Breaking news. CorinneThis is big news. VirginiaYou’ve all been wondering. I’m not totally breaking up with them because I haven’t quite found a non-underwire bra that works under every outfit. Because there can be a uniboob situation? But I have recently purchased some non-underwire bras. And I realize now that I don’t know how I made it through the whole pandemic while still wearing underwire bras every day. Every day!CorinneMe neither! I feel like when we originally talked about bras on a mailbag episode, I recommended the bras that you ended up getting.VirginiaThe True & Co bras? CorinneYes! And you were like, “Oh, never heard of them.” VirginiaWell, you influenced me. And then Marielle Elizabeth really influenced me. And I bought a bunch of them and they’re awesome.CorinneThey’re really good. The sizing is super flexible. I can wear anywhere from a 1x to a 3x. And I have a big chest.VirginiaYou do have to look for the full cup. Because I ordered some that were like a half cup and they do not work if you are someone with a big chest. CorinneYes, they have full cups and regular cups. VirginiaSo you have to look for the full cup. I can only find them on Amazon right now. I don’t know. CorinneThey’re only on Amazon now. VirginiaIt’s really irritating. I would like there to be other options. But the other one I’m wearing a lot of, is I have some of the Paloma bras from Girlfriend Collective. And actually, this one isn’t the paloma, it’s the high necked? I don’t know. But I like it because it feels just like a tank. Yeah, I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to get here. I will be 42 a few weeks after you hear this episode. It’s taken me a while. But now, I realize that I don’t have to accept permanent marks on the side of my body from bras. Like what was I doing? I think I thought I really needed more structure. I’ll unpack it all in an essay at some point. But for now, I just want to report the liberation that I am wearing underwire bras much less frequently. And it’s delightful. CorinneI love that. VirginiaAll right. Thank you all so much for listening to Burnt Toast!CorinneIf you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.--The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and also co-hosts mailbag episodes!The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

​​Today's episode is a Comfort Food rerun featuring a conversation between Virginia, Amy Palanjian, and Darcy Lockman. Darcy is a clinical psychologist and author of All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. All the Rage explores how egalitarian relationships become traditional ones when children are introduced to the household and why a disproportionate amount of parental work falls on women, no matter their background, class or professional statusDarcy’s book was foundational for me in starting to understand this issue more deeply. One thing I really like about Darcy’s work is that she does invite men into the conversation. It’s not just ranting, it’s about how we can change the conversation and move forward. And remember, if you order All the Rage from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off if you also preorder (or have already preordered) Fat Talk (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder a signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player and become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.LINKSDarcy's WebsiteKids Don’t Damage Women’s Careers — Men DoMommastrongCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!---​​You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.This week I am out on spring break. It’s been a while since we did a rerun, so for new listeners reruns come from Comfort Food, the sadly now retired podcast I made with my very best friend Amy Palanjian of Yummy Toddler Food.This episode was called mealtime mental load struggles. It’s an interview that Amy and I did with Darcy Lockman, who is the author of All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. We aired this episode on September 19, 2019, so you have to put yourself in the pre-pandemic world. It’s definitely a conversation that’s ahead of its time because we were still months away from the pandemic which really laid bare all the disproportionate ways that mothers, and really all non cis men people, carry families.Darcy’s book is one of the texts that was just so foundational for me in starting to understand this issue more deeply. One thing I really like about Darcy’s work is that she does invite men into the conversation. It’s not just ranting—not that I don’t love ranting about straight men—but it’s not just ranting about how they’re failing. It’s also talking about how we can change the conversation and move forward. One quick note I want to make before we dive in: Darcy’s book does focus on heterosexual partnerships, and therefore this conversation is very cis/het focused. If I were to do it today, I would definitely broaden that out a lot. I have since heard from plenty of queer couples who also struggle with this issue. Though it is also true that queer couples are often a lot more proactive about addressing and working through mental load divisions, just because they aren’t falling back on the hetero gender conditioning bullshit. So there’s obviously a lot more layers than we could get into here and I am aware that that piece is missing. It is one I would love to circle back on in the future.Episode 88 TranscriptVirginiaHello, and welcome to episode 43 of Comfort Food. This is the podcast about the joys and meltdowns of feeding our families and feeding ourselves.AmySo, we’ve talked about the challenges of sharing the mental load of meal times in past episodes, check out episode 15, 31, and 35. But this week, we brought in an expert who really knows what the research says about how and why this gender divide happens and we’re going to talk about what we think everyone should be doing about it.VirginiaI’m Virginia Sole-Smith, I’m a writer, a contributing editor to Parents Magazine and author of The Eating Instinct. I write about how women relate to food and our bodies in a culture that gives us so many unrealistic expectations about those things,AmyI’m Amy Palanjian, a writer, recipe developer and creator of Yummy Toddler Food. I love helping parents stop freaking out about what their kids will and won’t eat and sharing doable recipes that fit into even the busiest family’s schedule.VirginiaI am so excited to introduce our guests today, Darcy Lockman, who is the author of All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. I am trying to remember where I first found out about Darcy’s book, but I mostly just remember rushing to buy it and reading it voraciously in about three days. I encourage you all to do the same. Darcy is a clinical psychologist practicing in New York City, also a journalist who’s written for the New York Times, Washington Post, and many other places. Darcy, welcome to the show!DarcyThank you so much for having me, Amy and Virginia.VirginiaWhy don’t you tell us a little more about yourself and your family, especially because I think everyone’s going to be interested to know what prompted you to write a book about all this equal partnership stuff at home.DarcyWell, when I tell you, I have two kids and I’m married to a man, I bet you can imagine. I live in Queens and I have two daughters. They actually started school today, second and fifth grade. I live with them, and my husband, and our dog. And I was really surprised when we had kids, starting with our first daughter, but kind of snowballing through our second, how much of the workload of all of it fell to me. It was hard to articulate and name. My husband, despite the fact that we both work full time—we actually met in grad school, we’re both therapists—he seemed to be sailing through his life without much having changed. And that wasn’t the same for me. Which is not to say that he didn’t spend time with and adore our children because he certainly did and does. But his life was still going to work and then coming home and like hanging out with the kids. Whereas I suddenly had like 1000 new things to do every day. And it wasn’t anything that we planned that way. We would have certainly identified as progressive and egalitarian before we had kids. And if it had just been our problem, I would have thought, Okay, what am I doing wrong? But I noticed that all of the women around me with young kids spoke about what happened at home in the same way. So every day in the early years of parenthood, I just found myself asking this question: Why are we all still living this way? This wasn’t what we expected. What’s going on? And it became such a burning question that I ultimately decided to try to answer it by writing a book.VirginiaYou’re speaking to a lot of our souls right now.DarcyI’m sure. AmyWe talk a lot about mental load issues in the kitchen in many of our episodes. And in your book, you have an anecdote about making chicken nuggets that I’m sure will speak to a lot of us. Can you talk a little bit about why you think family meals in particular remain such a gendered issue and also tell the chicken nugget story?DarcyI’ll start with the chicken nugget story because I think that everyone has this chicken nugget story. We had been at the beach all day, my husband and my kids. This was not this summer but the past one. We stayed all day. It was a gorgeous day, and we didn’t eat dinner. So we’re driving home in the car and I’m thinking, okay, what are the kids going to eat? They’re starving, they need to get to bed. So you know, I said to my husband, “oh, we have chicken nuggets in the freezer. Let’s give them those when we get home,” and he said, “Okay.”So, we get home and the kids need to shower off because they’ve been at the beach. My little one was five at the time, so I was helping her shower. My older daughter went to shower herself, and my husband went into the kitchen. So I assumed he was making dinner for the kids, because we had discussed it in the car. So about five minutes later, after my younger daughter and I had showered, we came out together, I dried her off, she was getting dressed. And I walked into the kitchen and my husband was just standing there drinking a beer and there were no nuggets in the oven. They hadn’t even been gotten out of the freezer. I mean, clearly, nothing had happened. And it wasn’t even like an elaborate dinner. This kind of thing happens all the time, wherein I’m the only one thinking about what the family needs. And my husband’s not a bad guy. He’s not a selfish guy.VirginiaHe’s not thinking those steps ahead.AmyI mean, my husband is not a bad guy either. But it’s like you are telling the story of my house.VirginiaI was just thinking about every day this summer we would—like not every day but a lot of weekends, we would take the girls to the pool. And I was always like, “let’s eat lunch at the pool.” You know, they have like hot dogs or chicken fingers or whatever. And I was always like, “let’s just eat lunch at the pool before we go home.” Because I’m picturing getting home in a wet swimsuit, figuring out lunch, and he was always like, “Ah, it’s so expensive. Let’s just go home for lunch.” And I was like, I don’t understand how you don’t understand why that’s so much worse.DarcyYou do understand why he doesn’t understand. I mean, “Let’s go home and you make them lunch instead, while I go clean up.”VirginiaRight, while I take a shower. And we’ve saved $40 on pool food, which I get is ridiculous, but it’s aggravating. DarcyWell he didn’t pay you $40 for your time, right? VirginiaExactly. DarcyThis is the thing. There’s all this unpaid labor that women end up doing. And it really adds up over the life course. And it makes a big difference to people’s financial lives. I read recently—I keep coming across this stuff that I wish I could have put this in the book. Women over 65 are twice as likely as men over 65 to be living in poverty and a lot of that is attributable to how much more time they have spent in their lives to in free labor.VirginiaThat is staggering. That is really staggering.DarcyWe laugh about it, understandably, because this is our experience and it’s hard not to laugh, because we are living it—laugh and be enraged.VirginiaLaugh and cry a little bit. DarcyBut there really are serious consequences to the fact that women are the ones who carry most of this stuff. So, the chicken nuggets story. Everyone has that story. And it happens so regularly. And I think women remain more responsible for the mental labor of meals because they’re more responsible for everything. So I think it’s of a piece, I don’t know, a special piece of it. It’s one part of it. It’s just consistent across the board.VirginiaAnd it’s such a big source of labor at home that if you’re doing everything, of course, you’re going to be doing this giant thing.DarcyRight. And kids eat three times a day. The lawn needs to be mowed, I don’t know how often because I don’t have a lawn.AmyOnce a week.VirginiaYeah, like maybe every once every two weeks.AmyDuring the growing season.DarcyAnd if it doesn’t get done the consequences are not catastrophic. You can’t stop feeding your family.VirginiaRight, the lawn is far more optional than the chicken nuggets. DarcyI got a lot of notes from men after the book came out saying, “I do all the yard work.”VirginiaYeah, I hear that a lot. Yeah, “I’m in charge of the outside.” Like the outside is not where the kids are most of the time. It’s just not where most of the work is.DarcyThere was a great study that came out after my book came out that I wish I could have in my book, but urban men who don’t have outdoor work to do, such as in my family, we don’t really use a car, we don’t have a yard, there’s no gutter to clean. Urban men don’t make up for the difference in the labor they don’t have to do outside by doing more inside.VirginiaInteresting. They’re just really living their best lives. DarcyLying on their beds playing on their phones. That’s their best lives. I’m sorry, I do get really cynical. VirginiaWe’re not putting anybody’s husband, including yours, who has obviously been a good sport about this whole project, we’re not putting anyone on blast here. But I remember reading the chicken nuggets story and circling it in my copy of the book. When you’re talking about it in the book you wrote, “it was not laziness, it was something I had no name for and nothing I could hope to understand.” And that really struck me because it does feel like this opaque thing, where if you’re the person, the woman, who’s thinking the six steps ahead and used to figuring out like, “Okay, what do they need to eat? And when are we doing this?” and juggling all of that, it feels so hard to understand why the other person can’t see the same needs. But what did the research show you about why that’s happening? Why are men failing to see and let alone act on these really basic needs of kids needing dinner?DarcySociologists have really good language for this. They talk about how girls are really raised to be communal, to think about other people and their needs and concerns a lot of the time, and how boys are raised more to think about their own sense of agency, to be agentic, as they say, about their ambitions and their pleasures, and not think about others quite as much. So in that context, it makes sense that when in adulthood, you have a man and a woman living together, these two different ways of being are going to come together in a household in exactly this way.VirginiaWow, that’s fascinating. So it’s very much a socialized thing versus like, oh, women are just natural caregivers?DarcyWomen are no more natural caregivers than men. We do make a lot of false assumptions about biology. Women can gestate babies, but beyond that, men and women are equally capable of thinking about others and doing all of this stuff. Even when they study the physiological responses of mothers and fathers to babies, they’re exactly the same. They don’t really find any differences. In the 70’s they started looking at dads, which hadn’t been done before that. And they did studies in nursery wards of men’s heart rate, skin conductance and blood pressure when interacting with their infants with their newborns, and they rose at the same rate as women. There were no physiological differences in responses. So the only thing that differs between men and women is that men take a step back in the presence of their wives.But what happens is parenting skills are learned and not innate. So if men are always taking a step back, that way the learning curve is going to be much different for men and women. So women tend to spend more time with babies early on and then they learn more and then they know more. We make these assumptions about nature that are untrue. In fact, one of the things that I learned while working on this, and I almost can’t believe I didn’t know this before, is that men’s hormones change when they spend time in intimate contact with a pregnant woman. So there is a like neurobiological mechanism that primes men for fatherhood, just as it does for women. It doesn’t get a lot of play, right? We have all these assumptions about how men are a nice addition to a family but really, children are about mommies. What what they have found, what neuroscience is finding, is that changes in the brain around parenthood have more to do with being a primary parent than with being either gender. So when they look at the brain activity of primary care fathers, it’s basically the same as that of primary care mothers. So again, it’s about time spent with the baby, as opposed to being either a man or a woman.VirginiaThat’s fascinating. So it really is a learning. There’s a learning curve and you have to be in there doing the work to learn this stuff.DarcyThere’s so many things about the way we have parental leave structured in this country where men don’t get any, that the scale is really tipped in so many ways, toward the mother from day one.VirginiaRight, there’s this whole framework.AmyI was going to say, and then the culture of mom guilt, if you are not doing all of the things. DarcyInterestingly, that culture intensified in the mid-90s, which is when mother’s labor force participation peaked. Just as mothers were achieving more at work, and more commonly in the workplace, the bar for what being an adequate mother was, was really raised. And Sharon Hayes, who is a sociologist, called this “intensive mothering.” She called these new standards intensive mothering. And we all know what they are, because we live them. I’m in my 40s, I was not raised in the same way, in the same environment, that my kids are being raised in, just in that parents were a lot less involved. We kind of did our own thing, which wasn’t bad.But now what we see is this concerted cultivation, as it’s been called. All this attention being paid to kids, in every facet of their being. And while what parents are able to provide for their kids does vary by socioeconomic class or status, really that demand for intensive mothering does not change. It’s there, you see it in every stratosphere of socioeconomic status, the demands that mothers place on themselves and feel you have to live up to.VirginiaOh, this is really resonating as it is back to school time. My six year old is starting first grade and Amy and I were just texting this morning about trying to be more hands off about things like first grade homework and not being obsessive about all these things that I know it doesn’t even occur to Dan to be obsessive about. But I’m worried that I will look like I’m not on top of things if we don’t do XYZ.DarcyIt feels very public for us, we have to be doing these things. Because it’s such a vulnerable thing, raising kids. We want approval, so this is how to get it. Be really intense about it all the time.AmyI think that that plays into how we’re feeding our families, too. I mean, we want our kids to love us through food. And I think there is an expectation—well, maybe this is just me because I’m a food blogger—that we’re going to make certain types of meals. VirginiaI don’t think it’s just you. I think feeding kids is very performative these days.AmyThere’s a lot of boxes that I feel like we need to check with every meal that the deck just seems so highly stacked against like reality.DarcyYeah, I remember reading a lot of parenting articles and anytime there was a reference to food, the writer would be very careful to say like, “I was cutting my child’s organic carrots.” And I was so determined in writing this not to do that. I don’t write a lot about food, but I’m not going to say that I do anything organic or natural. I do eat that stuff as much as anybody, but…VirginiaIt’s a standard you don’t need to perpetuate.DarcyThere is a performative piece of it.VirginiaWell, and it’s this self fulfilling thing where as feeding kids gets more and more complicated and layered. If we go back to sharing the load with a partner, you’re increasing the learning curve for that partner who started at a disadvantage, not because not because men are disadvantaged in this, but because there was all this pressure for him to be less engaged. And now when they do step in to try to do things, it’s like, no, you’re doing it wrong. Like there’s that whole like piece of it, right? Where we’ve made it so complicated.DarcyYeah, except, I like to stay away from—and I know you’re not meaning to do this—the mother blaming thing. You know, “we’ve made it so complicated, we tell them they’re not doing it right.” There is that concept, of course. I don’t mean to say It doesn’t exist. The name for it—again, sociologists have all these great words—is maternal gatekeeping. The idea that women keep men out by tell them telling them they’re not doing it good enough.VirginiaRight. I was very interested in how you articulated this in the book, say more about this.DarcyThere’s this term maternal gatekeeping and it’s about women criticizing their husbands and so their husbands take a step back, because they don’t want to be criticized, and then the mother ends up doing it all. When I’ve had casual conversations with people about this topic, and especially before the book came out, I definitely had people say to me, “Well, women are just too picky and so men just back off because the women are so critical,” right? Because it’s like, let’s just keep blaming women for everything.I interviewed women for the book, who would say to me, “That makes me so mad because my husband, when I’m out, will let our our toddler stay up till 10 o’clock. And when when I say to him, ‘What were you thinking?’ He says to me, "‘Well, he said he wasn’t tired.’” And obviously, that’s not the way that you can interact with a four year old. You tell them when it’s bedtime, you don’t wait until they say they’re tired because it’s going to be midnight. But she said to me, “If I am critical of that with him, am I being a shrew? Or am I being a reasonable parent?” And the answer, of course, is always that I’m a shrew, because women are not allowed to comment without getting put in this kind of bucket of maternal gatekeeping, I suppose. One of the men who I interviewed for the book, a sociologist, would say that a man would say to him, “Well, my wife says, I don’t vacuum good enough so I just don’t do it anymore.” And I was nodding along during this interview. And then Michael Kimmel, the academic, says to me, “I say to him, ‘if you were working on a report at work, and your colleagues said, this isn’t up to par, would you say to them, Well, I’m just never going to do it any more then?’ That’s not the way you work on a team.”If you and your wife have different ideas about what what is acceptable, you have to come to an agreement about what the standards are. So men sometimes back out of work by saying, “Well, I don’t do it well enough for you so you’re just going to have to do it.” And that’s actually one of the strategies that’s been identified that men use as a way to get themselves out of having to do labor in the home.VirginiaAnd make women feel guilty in the process.DarcyLike, “you’re such a nag for asking me to take out the garbage,” is really a story about a man shirking responsibility. Like, why is the nag the bad guy in that story?VirginiaWhy is she even having to ask?DarcyWhy isn’t the person who isn’t behaving like an adult in their own home the one who’s taken to task? And misogyny has always answered that question.AmySo how do you think about these things that we have to do every day to take care of our families, when one of the parents actively enjoys something more than the other? This isn’t really true in my house, but say, I really, really love cooking, and my husband really, really doesn’t. How do you divide that and feel like, you’re not just doing everything?VirginiaBecause you aren’t going to really, really love it when you’ve done it seven nights in a row.DarcyI think that’s such an individual decision. It’s a good question. If you’re going to think about how many hours everyone is spending on labor, you might say, “well, I’m the cook of our family. Why don’t you be the launderer of our family?” or something. My husband and I actually tried that because he’s a horrible cook, for lack of experience more than anything else, but for him to catch up to where I am is taking much too long and I don’t like jarred spaghetti sauce. So he started doing the laundry instead and that seemed fair to both of us. Though I do have a friend, a male friend, who said to me, “I know this isn’t the right thing to say but I’m going to say it to you anyway,” because he does all the laundry, too, because his wife loves to cook. He’s like, “Jenny loves to cook and I don’t love to do laundry, so it’s still kind of not fair to me.” So, both people’s feelings of fairness, I suppose, need to be addressed. But I think whatever works for people is fine. There’s a couple of sociologists wrote a book in which they say, “equality is not so much an endpoint as a process.” And I think that really sums it up nicely because it’s a process of discussing how do we each feel about what our responsibilities are. And if either of us is unhappy, we really need to find something that works a little bit better. So whatever people want to negotiate is certainly fine. I mean, some people want the wife to do everything and the man to do nothing. There are traditional couples who live that way and if everyone’s satisfied, great. VirginiaI don’t think there’s a human out there who loves cleaning toilets, but someone has to clean the toilets. So, there’s always going to be that balance of like, maybe he does the laundry, but doesn’t love it, but she is probably doing other tasks that she doesn’t love, even if she does love the cooking. Like, there’s that trade. It’s nice that we can take pleasure in some of the domestic work. Nobody’ is going to love it all.DarcyThere’s a lot of negotiation and just paying attention. The couples I found who had achieved the most success in terms of both feeling comfortable with what each was doing were really on top of the idea that sexism was going to seep into their relationship if they weren’t careful to really talk a lot about how they were feeling about this stuff. Because it is a big issue in marriage. It’s actually the third cited reason for divorce after infidelity and growing apart.VirginiaWow, yeah, that’s staggering.This is building on what you’re saying about not blaming women for maternal gatekeeping, but at the same time, it does feel like there’s this real push/pull here. Most of what we need to happen is for men to step up and do more and engage with this issue, for sure, but there is also a degree to which women could be stepping down in some ways and letting go or at least prioritizing their own needs above this need to serve everyone else in the household.We talked about this a few months ago, because after I read your book and came to you at a party and was like, “Okay, I have questions.” There was this thing that happened between me and my husband, who I should say, is really, really,very much a shared parent and in this with me 50/50 and in a big way. But there was a day where we both recognized the societal sexism seeping into our lives. Which was, I was really horrified when he chose to take a nap on an afternoon when we had childcare. I felt like this was so self indulgent, that he would nap when our children were being cared for by another person. And he was like, “I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I had paid a responsible person to watch my children, I had a free afternoon, I took a nap.”You really helped me realize that wasn’t a situation where he needed to be more like me and feel like if he’s not with the kids, he has to be doing 97 productive things at all times. In fact, I should feel more permission to take self care for myself. I could also take the nap. In the book you called this like male entitlement versus female unentitlement. I would love for you to explain that distinction and talk a little more about why moms can be a little more entitled sometimes.DarcyYeah. Women today, working mothers today, spend as much time with their children as stay at home moms of the 70’s.VirginiaWe’re doing too much.DarcyAnd clearly there are still only 24 hours a day. So what the research has found is that women accomplish this by cutting back on leisure time, self care and sleep. Your husband isn’t cutting back on his sleep.VirginiaNo, or his leisure time. DarcyAnd I know, like, on a Saturday, the kids will be playing or whatever and my husband would be lying in our bed, which is his favorite place in the world. And he’ll be like, “come snuggle with me.” And I’ll be like, “are you kidding me? I have like 300 things I have to get done while the kids are napping.” And then I’m annoyed with him because he’s so happy to just lie on the bed and do nothing.So it’s really hard to strike a balance because there are 25 things that need to be done. But I think women do need to be more self indulgent in that way. I could. But it’s hard for me to relax when there are 25 things that need to be done because there isn’t infinite time to get them done.I don’t want to, as you say, rag on my husband in particular, but if he were more on top of those things, I would have less things on my list. And then maybe I would feel more comfortable lying down for a little bit with him on a Saturday afternoon. So I think maybe the same thing is true. I remember when we had that discussion, and maybe I didn’t give enough credence to the fact that him doing more might allow you to feel more comfortable to nap. A family is a unit and a system, right? So there’s that.But yes, women do feel less entitled to pursuit of their own pleasure when their children’s needs are in the air.VirginiaThat was a situation where the children’s needs were being fully met, like in that hour.DarcyBut I assume there were lots of other things around the house that that needed to be done.VirginiaThere could have been a load of laundry moved along but nothing was at a crisis point that particular day. I think that’s exactly the difference we’re talking about where, for women, it’s much harder to feel like you can relax even when things are basically done. There’s an endless list that we could be working through.DarcyAlso, there’s this invisible sense—this just happened in our house—this invisible sense about who’s in charge of what. We got a puppy in October. It was after I finished writing the book. My kids were so eager for me to finish so we could finally get this puppy. So we got the puppy. And I said to my husband, “you’re in charge of veterinary care. That’s on you.” Because, you know, we’re trying to divide things and it’s easy for me now to feel entitled to give him stuff because I still do more. So I was like, “yes, you’re on vet.” So we ran out of heartworm medication a few months ago, and I didn’t tell him and I knew he didn’t know. But he said to me last night, “has she not been on our heartworm medication?” And I was thinking, but you’re on vet. But there was this assumption that I was going to tell him when it ran out.VirginiaBut then that’s not him being on the vet. DarcyAnd we had this discussion about it last night, and we both felt in this discussion like I had dropped a ball. This is the mental load stuff, right? It’s so assumed that women are going to bear it. Like “I’m vet” might be him showing up to the vet once I’ve figured out that she needs the medicine and made the appointment.But there’s a lot of interesting mental load research about men and women’s assumptions about who is ultimately responsible. And I’ll tell you what the research has found, which is that men and women both hold women responsible for the mental load. When men are carrying the mental load, it’s usually around reminding women of things they have said they will do for the man. Like “you said you were going to buy me a new jacket.”VirginiaThat’s helpful. DarcyThere’s so much research on all this stuff. It was really a fascinating field to dig into. If depressing, also.AmyMaybe we can try to give our listeners some tips that you’ve found from talking to couples who are happy with their balance. This doesn’t even have to be specific to food or feeding a family, but just are there common denominators among couples who feel happy with the way that the load is being shared?DarcyIt’s a very good question and the answer is yes. There is one absolute common denominator. Both members of the couple understand that without close attention, things are going to fall in a certain way and both members of the couple have articulated to each other very explicitly, that they are invested in living in an egalitarian relationship. It really does take exactly that much attention. I was on Twitter last year and a woman posted an article by Jessica Valenti and the headline was “Kids Don’t Damage Women’s Careers — Men Do”. And the article said the reason that women are aren’t getting ahead as they might is that their responsibilities at home are outsized because men’s are undersized.Anyway, this woman posted this article and she wrote, “this is true, but it doesn’t have to be this way.” So I messaged her, I said, “Why is it not this way for you?” And she wrote back and said, “Because I married a Swede,” which was kind of funny, but then I said, “can I interview you?”And it turned out she was a she was getting her doctorate in sociology and in family studies. She knew what all the research showed and when she met her boyfriend, who then became her husband, she said to him, “Look, I’m not going to live this way. This is what all the research shows is going to happen. And I want us to jointly commit to staying on top of this,” and he agreed. So whenever things started to get off balance, they would reconvene and reconfigure. And before they had their kid, they sat down and thought about everything that was going to need to happen. I don’t know how they did this because it’s hard to anticipate that stuff. They talked about who was going to do what, who was going to do pickup—this was before they had a child. So it seems to be like this joint commitment to living equally is a thing that is required of couples in order to actually pull it off. A joint and explicit agreement. Because then when you come back to it, if things get off balance, it doesn’t have to be in anger, which is how so often how it goes, at least in my house. They could just say to each other, “hey, we’re not meeting this goal we set. Let’s recalibrate.” So that’s what all these couples do and that’s how they’re able to pull it off. It’s really startling, to me at least, how much attention it takes in order to make it work this way.VirginiaIt sounds like, too, though, one more optimistic takeaway from that is, yes, it requires just a huge amount of attention. But it’s also both members of the couple recognizing that this happens because of a larger force. This is cultural pressures. It’s less about blaming this one guy for not seeing the tray of chicken nuggets or whatever. It’s more about like, oh, wait, we’re both vulnerable to these larger pressures. It’s taking over again. How do we as a team fight back against that?DarcyThat’s a great point. And people have said that to me my husband and I read this together and it alleviated a lot of the pressure on both of us because we realize just what you said, Virginia. It’s the societal forces. It’s not that he’s a jerk. It’s not that I’m a martyr. It’s the water that we swim in. And we can fix it and not be mad or upset.VirginiaRight, not make it so personal. I’ve read a lot of books on this topic and All the Rage is the one that I have found that is the most accessible for both women and men to read. It’s not husband blaming and shaming because it is focused on this larger cultural problem. It’s a great book to read as a couple because it’s not as antagonizing as some of the other ones. Not to diss any other writers, because I think rightfully there is a lot of anger around this issue and women need to express that anger. But when you’re looking for okay, how do I actually move forward on this.DarcyI’ve gotten the best emails from men which have totally floored me, who were like, “this is totally me and I want to do better,” or, “I thought I was a feminist but this really opened my eyes to some things going on in my home.” I did not expect that kind of feedback from men when the book came out.VirginiaThat’s amazing. DarcyThat has made me quite optimistic that there are men who are seeing themselves here and wanting to do something better.AmySo, Darcy, can you tell our listeners where they can find you?DarcyYes. My book has a website.VirginiaThank you so much for being here, Darcy. I feel like I could talk to you for easily another hour because this research you’ve done is so fascinating, and there’s so much ground we can cover but really appreciate you being here with us.DarcyI really appreciate you having me. Thank you for your interest.VirginiaComing up next we are going to do some listener updates.UnrelatedVirginiaSo for this week’s unrelated we are going to do a smorgasbord, if you will, of many updates based on some of the great emails you guys have been sending us. So Amy, what do we have up first?AmyOkay, so Sara, after we did our unrelated about exercise programs that we like, sent us a recommendation for a program called Mommastrong. It started by a woman named Courtney Wyckoff. She’s a mom of three years, nearly postpartum with her third, and the program focuses on core strength and functional fitness. I love that there’s a daily 15 minute workout posted so that you can squeeze that in whenever you have 15 minutes and then there are five minute hacks. It just sounds like it’s so appropriate for this phase of life that we’re that we’re in. She also has a ‘fix me’ section for common aches and pains which I’m going to go check out.VirginiaYeah, upper back hunching, sciatica. I can relate to some of these pains. She also talks about that she has an almost 100% safe space as far as body diversity and body positivity, very little weight talk. And when there is weight talk, like in the Facebook Group, the moderators are on it so you can avoid that kind of stuff, which is pretty awesome. This looks great. I’m really excited to check this out.AmyShe had suggested that we interview Courtney for our episode on moms and fitness, but we did it too fast so we did not have a chance to consider that.VirginiaRight, that is Episode 41, where we got more into mom workout stuff, so definitely check that one out. But if this is a topic you guys are interested in, we can maybe do another episode and try to get Courtney to come on because she sounds awesome.So then the next update, in Episode 39 where we talked about snacking, Amy and I railed against the idea of children eating raw cauliflower, even if it’s purple or green or some fancy cauliflower. You see this a lot on Instagram, in the like Instagram rainbow bento box type snacking stuff. And we were talking about how that’s not realistic but Ruth emailed and says:Hi Virginia and Amy. Here in the UK, raw cauliflower is a standard crudites component. Definitely not an insta-invention for us. It’s my dad’s, a university professor in his 60’s, favorite and he is not cool or on Instagram. It is delicious with hummus and my kids, ages one and two, like it, too, when they go through a blessed phase of eating anything outside their staple diet of raisins, apples, cornflakes, and oatcakes.So, I have to say, I am half British—my mom is British—and I did not know raw cauliflower was a thing. So blame to all my British relatives for not enlightening me faster. But yeah, I guess it’s not just an Instagram trend.AmyI do like that she specifies that it is offered with a dip because that is often lacking in the rainbow displays. It is often plain. If it’s like a vehicle for eating ranch or hummus, I could see Tula using it as a spoon to get more hummus in her face.VirginiaWould she eat the cauliflower underneath the hummus, though? because my kids have been known to lick pretty aggressively.AmyI don’t know. I can try it out and see but she likes dips a lot. VirginiaAlright, next update. This was a really sweet note. This is from Jessica, who emailed in response to Episode 40 about growth charts that we did. She says:Thank you, Virginia, this week for mentioning that Beatrix is in high growth curve percentiles for height and weight. Despite being pretty in tune to hidden diet culture-y messages, listening today I realized that I still had an assumption that your kids were fed the “right way” and therefore must have bodies that were beyond critique. My 19-month-old daughter is in the 90/90 club. She’s tall and sturdy. And hearing that one of my feeding role models children has the same body type gave me so much peace.Oh, I really love that. First of all, 90/90 toddler body is absolutely beyond critique in my mind. They’re adorable. But yeah, I mean, the whole point of this is that healthy bodies come in a range of shapes and sizes. Some kids are going to be big and some kids are going to be small. AmySome kids are going to be like 90/10 on that curve.VirginiaRight or 10/90. There’s a lot of combinations. This is the big argument for getting away from fixating on weight. You can really embrace Health at Every Size and understand that human diversity is a pretty great thing, but I can definitely understand that anxiety, especially if you’ve had a pediatrician saying the wrong things about your toddler’s body. So, I’m glad I could help. Beatrix is glad she can help too. I mean, she doesn’t help but she will be glad.Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast. If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and tell a friend about this episode. Tell a partner about this episode. Maybe have a conversation about all of these issues.You can also consider a paid subscription to the Burnt Toast newsletter. It’s just $5 a month or 50 for the year. You get a ton of cool perks and you keep this an ad and sponsor free space.

Today Virginia is chatting with Jessica Wilson, MS, RD. Jessica is a dietitian and community organizer who co-created the #amplifymelanatedvoices challenge which went viral in 2020. She is also the author of It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies which came out in February. If you are someone who has been in the anti-diet, intuitive eating, Health at Every Size spaces for a while, this conversation may give you some really big questions to sit with—it definitely did for me. If you’re newer to these spaces, I hope that this work helps you feel more welcome and more seen. And remember, if you order It’s Always Been Ours from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off that purchase if you also preorder (or have already preordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSJessica's Instagram: @Jessicawilson.msrd. Jessica's TikTok: byJessicaWilson.Critiquing the Health at Every Size communitySabrina StringsDa'Shaun Harrisonyet another women’s magazine story about Ozempicintuitive eating and chocolate cakethe kid who can enjoy Oreosnecklace extenders for fat necks! CREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!Episode 87 TranscriptJessicaSo I have been a clinical dietitian for over a decade. I started in college health and I was taught zero things about eating disorders. I was very excited because people in their late teens and early twenties must just want to eat food and just learn how to adult!VirginiaThat sounds right. JessicaThat was my assumption. I was not ready for people to not want to eat food. Like, I became a dietitian because I wanted to talk to people who wanted to eat food. Like, that makes sense.VirginiaThat does make sense.JessicaSo, I was not ready. I was probably bad at it for a good two years, working with people with eating disorders and disordered eating because the nuances and complexities were just not what was written in books. It was all about, “They probably experienced trauma and this is why they have eating disorders so this is what you have to do,” and “ideal body weight.”VirginiaOh man.JessicaYeah, that was the books.Virginia“Ideal body weight” should definitely be part of a conversation about eating disorders. That sounds great. JessicaSo, I went from there into the Health at Every Size community and then I went out of the Health at Every Size community and into more body political spaces.VirginiaWe are talking about your incredible new book It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies which came out last month. I mean, Jessica, the book is powerful. So important, so beautifully written. I really could not put it down. You can ask my family, I was reading it last night and ignoring them. I want everyone who works in food and bodies in any capacity to read it because it feels like such an important and desperately missing piece of this conversation.You argue that our continued focus on body positivity, on diet culture, on wellness culture, all of this is keeping us distracted from systems and structures that truly oppress bodies, and that this focus is enabling us to avoid a deeper, and I would say probably much harder, conversation about liberation. So let’s start there. Why do we need to do this reframing?JessicaI really appreciate that you teased that out and were actually open to this conversation because I don’t feel like this is where our field is. We’re still using “anti-diet” and “diet culture” and thinking that is good enough, thinking that is an umbrella-enough term to speak to everyone and their experiences.Sabrina Strings has done a great job, Da'Shaun Harrison has done a great job of really breaking down how anti-fatness is connected to anti-Blackness and therefore structural racism and systemic inequalities. But somehow, we get caught. We just jump into what’s easier. And it’s easier to talk about a drive for thinness, or diet culture, or Ozempic, and how that’s impacting people’s bodies and thinking that is the problem. Or Ozempic is the problem. When, like, why are people shrinking themselves? Why is that happening, in a cultural context? Why are we not talking about white supremacy and capitalism and the safety and survival that is gained from folks by shrinking themselves?But when we talk about just the drive for thinness or the thin ideal, or any of these simple conversations, it’s easier. It’s a harder conversation to talk about structures and so it keeps us really comfortable. It doesn’t ask us to stretch, it doesn’t implicate us in any of this stuff. Those of us who are white, those of us who are thin, we just get to talk to our people about not wanting to be on a diet anymore. People aren’t seen in those conversations. We already know that folks of color, especially Black folks, don’t see themselves within the eating disorder diagnosis. That is for many reasons, but a lot of our choices to shrink our bodies and make us not as hyper visible come from safety and survival. So the more we talk about thinness, the more we talk about the cures and wellness or body positivity, the less we’re going to see our clients. And of course that has an impact on the care we give. That impacts who sees themselves within the field.VirginiaI’m coming at this as a journalist—I’m not a clinician of any kind—and in reading your book, I was thinking a lot about how much the media has contributed to this through the eating disorder stories that we tell. I came from women’s magazines. I did a lot of harm. The eating disorders stories we told (and that the media continues to tell) always centered the thin white girl. That’s another layer to this I just want to name that. It’s the way that dietitians and therapists are approaching this work through the white lens. It’s also then being reinforced by the media’s discussion of these issues. And we’re seeing it for sure in the Ozempic coverage right now, which is just yet another women’s magazine story about weight loss.Let’s talk a little more about this misconception that eating disorders develop when people are so concerned about their own bodies, disturbed by their own bodies, and how this leaves out anyone who’s struggling because their body disturbs other people. JessicaThe body positivity conversations are always meant to fix this misconception that we have about our bodies. It’s the idea that our bodies are fine just the way they are and we just need to think they’re fine and then they will be fine. [Body positivity teaches that] the problem is within us, in the way that we can think about our bodies.But that says nothing about the messages that we’re getting about our body from society. I may feel great about my body, but I still have to leave my house. Making me feel great about my body does nothing in the context of society. Thinking a size twelve is fine when I really want to be a size six, or whatever it is for white women. Yes, you can do that work, because it’s fine. But when we’re talking about other folks, it’s not fine. I can’t think myself out of my reality.VirginiaI can’t think myself into accessing medical care. JessicaOr jobs.VirginiaJobs, clothing access, all of that stuff. And it’s tough because people’s individual pain is valid and real. But it’s just so much attention going towards this one very specific experience of that pain and not enough attention going to the rest.Can you talk more about how eating disorder treatment fails Black women? I’d also love if you wanted to talk to us about Lexi who’s so important in the book and why concepts like diagnosis and recovery just don’t even necessarily make sense as treatment goals for some of these folks.JessicaI’ll start with a brief overview of Lexi’s story. She was a gymnast from age three and was always literally judged alongside thin white girls. As a Black gymnast, she was inherently “too muscular,” or “too powerful” for the more ‘elegant’ events. And she wanted to do the ‘elegant’ events, like beam and bars. So in order to be judged as appropriate for that, shrinking her body was something that meant winning. She never thought that her purging, that her laxative or whatever cleanse was disordered, because it just made sense. VirginiaIt was what she was being told to do.JessicaRight. Her scores were improving. She was “winning.” What was wrong with it? It was totally just normal for her. It wasn’t until I was like, “you might want to eat more than broccoli for dinner.” She was like, “hmmm, no.” I was like, “so this is the work that I do.” She’s like, “Yeah, this isn’t disordered. This is normal. Black girls don’t get eating disorders. That is for frail people. I’m not interested in being thin at all. This is about winning. This is not about thinness.” VirginiaInteresting.JessicaRight. So it just wasn’t the language that we use, like a drive for thinness or whatever it is. She also wasn’t underweight. She’s probably technically, according to BMI standards, overweight and always being told by medical and professional folks to lose weight. VirginiaPurging, all of that, was never getting flagged by any health care provider as something to worry about.JessicaExcept for the dentist.VirginiaWell, I’m glad someone noticed, but they aren’t exactly equipped.JessicaNo, and they’re not going to coordinate any care. They’re just going to be like, hmm this thing, and be like that’s, that’s what’s going on here.And then all our recovery models that are focused on “ideal body weight” and weight gain and all of these things. Why would that be something someone would consider when their life is, I wouldn’t say exponentially better because that’s entirely subjective, but what they’re doing is working, is how I put it. So this recovery questionnaire or these steps of meal plan exchanges or whatever it is, why would I be doing that? I don’t even have an eating disorder to begin with. What are you telling me to do? VirginiaThat definitely makes sense in the gymnastics context, but then how is this failing all Black women, not just Black gymnasts? JessicaSo Lexi found safety and survival in what she was doing in gymnastics. But I was talking about Black women who are invisible but also hyper visible in any situation. For those of us who have been told we’re too much or we literally don’t fit into certain scenarios. There can be professional and social capital gained when we literally shrink our bodies because we become less literally and less of a threat to people around us, more palatable.I tell the story of Mia in the book, who was in an all white grad program and saw that people were treating her differently as she went on her “wellness journey” and ended up losing weight. Me saying, “Hi, I saw in your chart—” which I did, “—that you have an eating disorder diagnosis.” She’s like, “No, that’s not why I’m here. That’s might be what it says.” But what she wanted was supplements to make her hair grow back. And that was it. She was like, “That’s not what I have. This is what I’m doing because it’s working.” And I’m like, I don’t have tools to deal with this situation. This is not what I was taught. So what do I do now?VirginiaWhat do you do? Obviously, the practices that Mia and Lexi are engaging in are taking a toll on their health, but they’re also logical ways to keep their bodies safe. How do you navigate this obvious need for safety, and also this concern that you’re not eating enough?JessicaI think it’s great that you use the word navigate because I feel like some people would use the word treat, you know? Because what they have going on is, in theory, not a diagnosis. We’re not going to pathologize what they’re doing.This is when the conversation becomes broader. So again, keeping it small and talking about the societal pressures of basic thinness or whatever it is really scapegoats a conversation about systems and structures and white supremacy. The solution, in theory, is changing society. But in those moments, all I can do is validate their reality, rather than saying, “actually, what I need you to do is…” or “you would feel better if…” I did get caught up into that, because it was like a desperation for me. It made it all about me in a moment. I was pushing what I thought she needed or what I wanted to see for myself because I wanted to be able to help this person. But the solution is not a clinical intervention, it’s a societal change.VirginiaWhich is hard.JessicaRight, what do you do?VirginiaIt’s a difficult place to find ourselves.JessicaSo, I introduce Fearing the Black Body and she’s like, “Yes! This is what it is. And maybe I’ll read this later.” But right now, this is not, a conversation that I can have because this is how I need to survive right now.VirginiaThere’s a lot of heartbreak to this work you’re doing. A lot of heartbreak. JessicaYes. It wasn’t until like a month ago that I just cried after an appointment. It wasn’t even like I let it build up. I was just able to sit in that moment and shed a few tears just because it was sad, not because it had anything to do with me or anything to do with that patient. This society is just trash and I’m going to be sad about that right now rather than making it about me and whether or not I’m able to cure this patient or whatever it is. And then I moved on. It was like, that was sad and I’m allowing it to just be sad.VirginiaThat sounds really important but really hard. I can imagine the struggle to to sit there in the moment and not make it about you. Not push like “but wait, we need you to eat bread.”Jessica“I need to problem solve this. I’m here to give the solution.”VirginiaThat’s really hard. And I mean, not to push for solutions because I understand it’s the systemic change, but I guess I’m just curious, what you would want to see from particularly all the white dietitians and folks in the field who are who are not going to innately have this context?JessicaAs dietitians or therapists, we just focus on the food. You know, I am seeing someone like Mia get an eating disorder dietitian, when it’s not about the eating at all. So can I get you somebody who can talk to you about your identity development in context, so that you can see what is going on. You still get to make your own choices, but I want you to know that your body is not the problem. That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about society. I always think that healing comes from community. And that isn’t our body image groups or our eating disorder groups for these people. Turns out, that’s not going to be the solution. So yeah, what does that community look like for folks? VirginiaYeah, I loved when you talked about that in the book and and helping someone find online community with shared identities and they were like, “Oh, okay, you’re not sending me to an intuitive eating group?”JessicaThat’s because I had done that. Because that’s what we’re supposed to do, send people to an eating disorder support group. And, you know, we had done that. And thought that that’s what I was saying, again, I’m like, oh, no, no, no, no. That’s not what we’re doing.VirginiaI was also really struck in the book by these moments where it’s another Black woman talking to you like, “this is how I need you to behave.” And this concept of respectability coming up. I wonder if we could talk about that a little bit. Who is expected to perform respectability? And how is this another way we’re robbing Black women of bodily autonomy?JessicaI will start by saying in the context of respectability, a lot of people will say it’s a bad thing, across the board, for Black women to be telling other Black women how they should be acting in community. And recognizing again, the complexity of what older Black women or other Black women may have experienced and been policed for. Laughing loudly is a great example that I use in the book.VirginiaThe woman in the bar.JessicaMy friend was being told to be quiet and stop basically laughing as loudly. The older Black woman was like, “That’s not how we should be acting in public,” basically. Another friend of mine was talking about how they were policed growing up and not knowing at all the context for this. It was just that they were acting incorrectly. There wasn’t a greater conversation about “I’m worried about you, if you go out you into society and how you will be treated.” There wasn’t any care given, it was just you need to not be doing X Y or Z thing. Like, I am worried about not even you, but society and how it functions. If we do these things, we may mitigate some of that harm. And if we do, the problem is still not on us. So how can we have these conversations?I saw it a lot in the earlier earlier 2010s in the Health at Every Size community, it was very much “exercise intuitively, eat your way into being a good fatty” and those are well documented by fat folks. But yeah, the good fatty respectability and we can see it in food choices. You know, the whole foods sprouts, a person trying to gain some social capital by eating quinoa and kale first.VirginiaIt definitely resonated with me, with the good fatty pressure of how am I performing that I’m a fat person who exercises, all of that. As opposed to just just being able to be. You talked about wanting to just be Basic Black. JessicaTo not be special or magic. Just to be average. Really just be.VirginiaTrying to be magic all the time sounds exhausting. And I want to talk about Lizzo, too, because this is a great example that you get into where respectability politics gets layered onto her, the Black magic stuff gets layered onto her. Expecting her to be the person who holds all of our body positivity hopes and dreams. All of that. It’s a lot of pressure for one phenomenally talented person who is just trying to make great music. We really saw this in 2020, you write about this in the book, with the whole smoothie debacle. JessicaLizzo was very open and honest about having a very crappy 2020 or a really crappy October or whatever month it was, and decided to do like a smoothie cleanse. And for some people that is as far as they read into the situation. I had fat friends who were discussing cleansing, like she was doing a juice cleanse or whatever, but digging in, it was like smoothies and almond butter and apples and protein bars, or whatever it was. But how easily it was like, “Lizzo has gone against the body positivity rules.”VirginiaShe has failed us.JessicaLike, she said smoothie, she said cleanse. This is over. My love affair with Lizzo and everything that I had put onto her to make me feel better about my body is over because she said the word cleanse. I understand people getting triggered by other people’s behaviors, but how have you put so much of yourself into Lizzo’s existence that this is devastating?VirginiaYou don’t know her.Jessica No! She owes you nothing! Like, I don’t understand. Thin folks having commentary about why not to cleanse and this and that. And sure, do people do whatever program she was on for weight loss? Maybe! but she doesn’t owe us anything. VirginiaShe is a person existing in a world giving her all kinds of messages and pressures. Why are we expecting her to never have any reaction? Even if she was pursuing weight loss, that’s her own business. She’s dealing with her own shit. JessicaPeople are always telling her to put more clothes on and she’s too fat. In the world, as a Black woman, even if she was trying to lose weight, I get it. It sucks.VirginiaIt was really interesting to see that backlash. And I admit, I had a moment of sadness. I don’t feel that Lizzo owes me her eating habits, but I just had a moment of just like hearing the word cleanse.And to be honest, I’m uncomfortable with it because I’m thinking more recently there’s this whole thing with Gwyneth Paltrow with that new video. That, to me, feels so much more overtly harmful. Because Gwenyth is detailing behaviors in very specific ways and she’s also selling a lot of these things. And Lizzo was like, this is something I’m doing for me. She wasn’t selling it in quite the same way. So I don’t know if that feels like a distinction to you or not. JessicaIts a really good point. I didn’t see anybody being triggered by Gwyneth. They were laughing at her and and talking about how it was basically an eating disorder. That was super easy, not eating anything but bone broth and vegetables. That’s easy. But I didn’t see the think pieces. I saw the think pieces on like why she’s weird. And selling us her silliness, for sure. But it wasn’t like “I’m triggered because I was looking to Gwyneth.” But both are celebrities and both owe us nothing. But why are we like so accepting of a thin white woman like telling us she’s actually disordered versus somebody saying that she’s only eating almond butter, apples, smoothies, protein bars.VirginiaI think it is because nobody looks to Gwenyth for body acceptance. You look to her as aspiration of the thin white ideal that I’m striving for, but you don’t look to her to feel better about your own body. And Lizzo people want her to do that emotional work for them. JessicaThat’s a great connection. VirginiaIt’s a complicated one. Speaking of annoying white people, can we talk about Walter Willett? There’s a chapter in your book where you go to this thing called the Healthy Kitchens, Healthy Lives conference. It was a shit show and it really makes clear this intersection between healthism and racism that I would love to get into. Maybe we should start by talking about what healthism is, because that might be a newer concept for folks. And then we can talk about Walter.JessicaI think of healthism as the morality of being a “Healthy” person—I put healthy with a capital H because it’s a social construction. At Healthy Kitchens, Healthy Lives that meant the absence of disease and like quinoa and kale, and olive oil lifestyle. 1. You were not unhealthy and 2. You were eating in all these ways and exercising and performing capital H Health.We have collectively as a society not decided on what health looks like. There is no absolute metric by any means. So then the purity and morality of all of that… a lot of people have critiqued Health at Every Size for for healthism as well. Doing these things in order to be healthy as a fat person. Lifestyle change yourself out of everything. And not even lifestyle change, but like meditate yourself out. Like you won’t actually have to take medication if you do X, Y, and Z things and that’s something you should aspire to.VirginiaRight. We frame taking medication, which is receiving health care, we frame it as a failing, like it’s a last resort. You only do that if you can’t get your lifestyle under control.. As opposed to that being a pretty necessary way for a lot of us to exist in the world. JessicaYeah, totally. And Healthy Kitchens, Healthy Lives made that clear. As we know, Health is not poor. Health is not Black and brown. Health is very thin, and depending on what five years span we are in, it might be fit. It might be bulky, it might be however we want it to be. Like, whatever health is changes. And of course, health is BMI and all of that jazz, as well.VirginiaAnd at that conference, it was also not eating nearly enough food. JessicaHahaha, good point.VirginiaYou kept describing a prune and strawberry shake.JessicaI hadn’t put together the Walter Willet of it all and the public health of it all. It just got like very scarcity about foods, like what if they don’t have eggs for breakfast? What if it’s vegan? What if everything is vegan? I’m just never going to be full on anything. And the portions were teeny tiny. It was very tea time vibes.VirginiaLittle plates. Nobody really wanting to admit that they’re hungry even though it’s lunchtime. Of course you need to eat food, you’re sitting in this nine hour conference. I was very glad you got tacos or nachos or something at night to survive. But they had you there on a panel, so talk a little bit about what you thought you were doing at the conference and what they wanted you to be doing at the conference.JessicaSo Healthy Kitchens, Healthy Lives had invited me to talk about health disparities. This was their first time back in person post-COVID. And they needed to talk about health disparities, because apparently they just hadn’t before. And because it was 2022, they needed at least one Black person. I was the only Black person speaking at this conference, which was wild. And our panel was, of course, the end on the last day. So if people had left beforehand, they wouldn’t have to sit through what I was going to say. And initially, it was going to be a presentation. And I was always, like, very confused. I was just hearing that this person Walter—I was not given a last name—needed to approve these slides, because it’s all part of a curriculum that needed to be approved.It got down to the things that I had wanted to say, like the way that the structures and systems are causing the health disparities, it’s not the humans themselves. Like, we are not health disparities. Your Blackness, your brownness, your fatness, your queerness—all of those things that you are are the health disparities. No, no, it’s how we treat people is the problem. And they were like, I don’t know. And I was like, I would like to critique the Mediterranean diet, and they’re like, oh no, I don’t think we can do that.VirginiaWalter is not going to like that.JessicaIt was bananas. Anyhow, I ended up on a panel with another woman of color and a white dude about health disparities. Why would there not be a white dude on a panel about health disparities? I talked about fatphobia, anti-fatness, racism. That was the first time anybody had named racism and white supremacy in a presentation, on the last day in the last hour, after talking about food insecurity forever and never mentioning food apartheid.And the people in the audience, there were the stares, but also there was nodding. There were the aha moments when I was talking about health disparities, particularly in people’s bodies being risk factors. I said, “as a Black person, I would not walk into an office and you would not immediately say, ‘you need to not be Black.’ But when a fat person walks into your office what you’re going to say is that they need to not be themselves.” Like, it was those moments that people were like, I see. I see.Then the most stark moment was when Walter got back to the podium and thanked the white guy for talking. And then wrapped it up and said what he had said was very important. But the other two, the women of color on the panel? Didn’t mention us at all. Didn’t thank us at all. It was like, case closed. It’s like we weren’t there there. It was wild. VirginiaFor folks who don’t know, just say who Walter Willett is and his position in health and nutrition spaces.Jessica He is a very esteemed researcher and was the director of the nutrition department at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. He’s an emeritus, I believe, right now, but still highly regarded. He’s proudly referred to as the father of nutrition research. He’s got like a gazillion publications all about the Mediterranean diet and heart disease and how we’re all basically going to die if we don’t start eating nuts.VirginiaI interviewed him several times many years ago in my women’s magazine phase, and let’s just say everything about your chapter, I was like, yep, yep. They were hard interviews because I was in a weird place of starting to do this unlearning but I’m reporting for Marie Claire magazine. I’m not getting taken seriously as a journalist because I’m a woman from a women’s magazine in that context. And he is a man who knows all about nutrition. So, there’s that thing to navigate. I was very much in a Health at Every Size framework at that point, but even that is like pretty wild. Walter is not here for the Health at Every Size framework. I’m trying to ask those questions and it’s just like talking to a wall. I felt like I really understood that experience much better after Katherine Flegal published her piece. For folks who don’t know, she was a longtime CDC epidemiologist who published a lot of the literature reviews showing that higher BMI does not correlate with instant death the way we are taught and Walter Willett is one of the researchers who just like eviscerated her for that work. Public shaming and so much blatant sexism and fatphobia. So nothing about this was super surprising, but I’m really sorry you had to experience it. And also, I’m so glad you wrote about it because we need these godlike men to be deconstructed. So, thank you.JessicaI appreciate the empathy and sympathy for sure. But, you know, I did say yes to this. But that’s just how I have navigated all of these spaces. I have not been a martyr, like if I don’t, then somebody else won’t. But I’m like, what actually goes on here? How are all these policies created by this one guy? How does it work? Why are people so enamored? I was like, I really want to see this for myself. I don’t want to just critique blindly. VirginiaI mean it’s fascinating because these are supposed to be scientists with some kind of scientific objectivity. And yet, there’s so much cult of personality. It’s really not very objective at all.The other important critique that we’ve touched on a little bit is how you get into the problems with Health at Every Size and with intuitive eating and how these concepts do not go nearly far enough to actually serve folks because they are not articulating the existence of racism and have so many other problems. Let’s talk about intuitive eating. I think that’s something that people throw out as a term that feels really comfy and safe and like the opposite of all the things they’re trying to get away from. So it’s maybe unnerving for folks to hear that Jessica doesn’t like intuitive eating that much.JessicaPeople have definitely come and been mad and angry about my critiques of intuitive eating because they hold on to it so much, I find, from their own recovery. Like if it was helpful for them—shock and surprise, they’re mostly often white women—it’s supposed to work for you. Of course it did!VirginiaYou’re who they made it for. JessicaYeah, of course. I’m not talking necessarily to you or trying to validate your experience.I will back up and say that I was 1,000% an intuitive eating dietitian. I was Health at Every Size, intuitive eating, 1,000% this is the way to go. This is not dieting. This is listening to your body. What could be wrong with that? Intuitive just as a word sounds amazing. But just me trying to have more complex conversations with particularly the Health at Every Size and ASDAH communities, the think tank there and trying to bring in race, specifically, and fatness and Blackness—there was just no receptivity to it at all. I was told that this is actually just about fatness, there’s no need for us to talk about other intersecting identities. Like, thanks, Jessica, what we like is that you’re a person of color at this table. But could you just be quiet and be here so that we can like say that you’re at our table? No, that’s not really what I’m going to do.And then I decided to not be a Health at Every Size provider anymore because it wasn’t helping the people who were in my community at that time. And I had move to the Bay Area, and we’re very involved in body politics and a lot of those people were queer, they’re trans, fat, folks of color, with multiple intersecting identities. And they were like, yeah, this whole Health at Every Size thing. It’s great for fat, white women with health care and money, but it’s not, it’s not helping me when I go to the doctor’s office. This card of Health at Every Size principles is not helping me access health care and be treated like human.VirginiaAnd is that because a provider interacting with someone with multiple intersecting identities is just like, that’s just another barrier you’ve thrown up at that point? To be presenting this card like, this is my Health at Every Size manifesto. Because they’re already dealing with so many barriers, if they piss them off by not getting on the scale, then that doesn’t help them get the health care they need?JessicaThe performance for our health care providers and how that’s safety and survival. Yeah, my friends were saying, I’m still Black or I’m still brown when I go to the doctor’s office. Them not weighing me or me having perfect lab results is still like not going to protect me from the medical racism that I’m experiencing there. So, that’s nice for you, this is our reality. So, I started having more conversations there.And at the same time, I was having intuitive eating groups and the people in my groups were more on the body politics understanding and intersecting identities, but were also great at questioning intuitive eating. Like, they’d go through the book and be like, “Okay, tell me when I’m supposed to eat. Tell me what is too full. Tell me what to do if it’s lunchtime and I’m not hungry. Do I eat then when I’m not hungry?” Like 21 questions of how to do intuitive eating well. I was like, oh, goodness, when you were dieting, this was laid out for you perfectly and you’re looking for the same safety and structures from intuitive eating. Maybe that is not the conversation that we need to be having. People who don’t have access to food, people who have experienced trauma or for whatever reason don’t have access to bodily cues, people who have food aversions, there are so many things that would interrupt and make intuition not applicable. But again, we’re still providing 10 principles. It looks very familiar to the safety I found in whatever I was previously doing.VirginiaIt’s another plan I can try to implement.Jessica1000% and until the most recent edition, it had “cope with your emotions without food.” Like that sounds very familiar. Never eat emotionally. Yeah, I think I’ve heard that before.VirginiaIt’s making it the hunger/fullness diet. And all the language around eating, like making decisions about what to eat based on your hunger as if we don’t ever eat for reasons beyond hunger. It’s so overly simplifying things. JessicaNever for pleasure. It was after I published the book, I think it was reading an article about intuitive eating and how someone ordered chocolate cake because she wanted it. And she ate three bites and like pushed it away. And the person in the interview was just marveling at her self control to only eat three bites, and I’m like, this is weird. If she had finished it, we’re going to be fine. Tomorrow is going to be Tuesday. We’re all going to be fine.VirginiaThe amount of cake is really not the question here.I write a lot about these issues in parenting. And with kids there’s a lot of talk in the Division of Responsibility model about letting kids decide how much they should eat, which is a great principle. Absolutely. But it’s often framed with the promise of you will then get kids who can take or leave the treat foods, who don’t eat the cookies. And I’ve been guilty of this, I’ve used this language and then really reflected on it. Because it’s like, wait, the goal is not the kid who’s like, I don’t care about Oreos, I have like no response to Oreos. The goal is the kid who can enjoy Oreos and not feel guilty about it afterwards. So the amount of Oreos they eat is totally beside the point. But I think often it gets sold to parents as like “this will fix picky eating because this will get your kids to be less interested in treats and more interested in vegetables.” And it’s like, well, that’s just the same as another diet.JessicaI think about community care in this aspect. Lexi likes to tell the story about how when—so she had to come stay with us during COVID for a variety of reasons including personal loss and grief. So she ended up at our house and it was like the second or third day. We all went and did like a giant grocery shop. And she came back and had a bag of mini peanut butter cups. And I walked away to do something and came back shortly after and the bag was empty. And I’m like, oh, okay, I’m curious about that. She’s like, “Oh, yeah, it’s sugar stomach, like that’s just the thing that happens.” I’m like, “oh, what’s sugar stomach?”VirginiaWhat’s sugar stomach?JessicaShe’s like, “Well, you get something that you’re not allowed to eat, you eat it all, because you know you’re not supposed to eat it again tomorrow. And then you don’t end up eating dinner because you have sugar stomach and you’re too full.” It was like, oh, that’s interesting. Is this how you think about all things with sugar in them? Yes, of course and that is all of my upbringing. And I was like, Oh, okay.So I went got the best peanut butter cups out there—the Trader Joe’s ones, I will fight you over that. I went and got them for myself and when I would eat them during the day, I would just walk past her and leave one or two or a handful or whatever. And she said at the beginning, “I was mad. Like, I’m just eating two. Or like, what if I wasn’t thinking or craving them right now but now I’m just eating two.” And you know, at the end, she left and, thankfully for me, left half a container of those peanut butter cups in the fridge because it was like whatever. That’s what community care can look like because now you’re able to eat as many of them as you want to and feel fine because they’re delicious. I want you to feel fine after peanut butter cups.VirginiaRight. And it’s not that oh, you only ate two or you left half the container. It’s that you were able to engage with this food in a positive way without having a whole thing about it.JessicaAnd “never eating them again,” but also eating them again. ButterJessicaIt’s stereotypical to be a food thing, but I’m still going to recommend tater tots in the air fryer.VirginiaOh, that sounds great. JessicaYep, they can be made into so many things or eaten just by themselves. They’re a food that I stopped eating at whatever age but have brought back as a 40+ year old and am very happy about it.VirginiaThat sounds great. And do you use ketchup other condiments or just straight?JessicaAll of the above. I have them with eggs, I have them on the side of things. You can make them into nachos or whatever you want. VirginiaOh, I like that idea. Just as like a good fundamental base of a meal.JessicaHow can I plan my meal around tater tots as the primary food?VirginiaI love it. I love it. My butter this week is just a little practical hack for fat folks. As my body changed, a lot of my necklaces didn’t fit anymore. And I didn’t expect this, I didn’t know necks get fatter. Of course, they get fatter. It’s great. It’s fine. But it was a little moment of sadness. I had some favorite necklaces that I couldn’t wear anymore. And I just discovered necklace extenders are a thing that they sell! You can get them on Etsy, you can get them lots of places. (Here are the necklace extenders I bought.)They’re just a little extra two inches of chain that you can clip onto your necklace so that a necklace that has gotten too tight now fits. I’m wearing one right now! It’s such an easy hack and I just want to make sure that everyone knows about it because it’s bringing me a lot of joy to have favorite necklaces back in rotation. It’s such a small thing, but really nice. Jessica, thank you so much. Tell listeners where we can follow you and how can we support your work.JessicaI am on Instagram @Jessicawilson.msrd. I am going to try my way at the TikToks, I’m very excited for this journey. I am byJessicaWilson. I’ve started collaborating with some young folks, I’m going to make the move.VirginiaI’m there, too, and we can go on this journey together maybe because I’m there and I’m struggling.JessicaBooktok is apparently is a thing! So, books and life and food, there’s so many options.VirginiaWe’re doing it.JessicaAnd then the book is on audiobook, ebook, and in bookstores wherever books are sold.VirginiaAnd it is It's Always Been Ours: Rewriting the Story of Black Women’s Bodies. Thank you, Jessica. This was wonderful.JessicaYou’re welcome. It was great talking to you.

It's time for another community episode! This month, Virginia and Corinne are exploring how we feel about the word fat: Who gets to use it? What if you just don't want to use it? What is the power of reclaiming it? Thank you to everyone who contributed today. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.CW: In this episode we do mention some specific weights and sizes. If numbers are triggering to you, you might want to skip this episode. BUTTERWhen Whales FlyGirlfriend Collective high waist compression leggingsPaloma braSuperfit HeroBOOKSOrder any of these from the Burnt Toast Bookshop for 10 percent off if you also preorder (or have already preordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)Fat! So? by Marilyn WannShrill by Lindy WestLittle Witch Hazel by Phoebe WahlOTHER LINKSTuesday’s newsletterSellTradePlusOur March mailbag episodeWho gets to call themselves fat? What if you just don't want to use the word fat? What if you just don’t want to be fat?I had a huge ribcagethat This American Life episodeMarielle ElizabethCatherine's TikTokthe good fattyThe Fat LipCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.VirginiaYou're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter. CorinneAnd I'm Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing. VirginiaSo you are all very lucky because you are getting two Corinne episodes this month. We had our regular March mailbag episode, and I asked her to join me for today's community episode. Thank you, Corinne!CorinneThanks for having me. The theme of today's episode is, “How do we feel about the word fat?”VirginiaThis is something we've been talking about because, as we're going to get into, there's stuff in the—well I was going to say news, but it doesn't exactly make the news. CorinneIt’s news for us. VirginiaIt’s news for us. It's not on the evening news. But there's a lot of stuff happening in fat activism circles right now, which got us thinking about this question again. Because it's an evergreen question, right? We've covered it on the newsletter before: Who gets to call themselves fat? What if you just don't want to use the word fat? What if you just don’t want to be fat? And it feels like time to get into these questions again.So, Corinne, tell us your story. When did you start using the word fat? And specifically, when did you reclaim the word fat for yourself? CorinneI have this core memory of reading a teen magazine with one of my friends in middle school. The magazine said something about, like, plus size models or something. And I remember just being like, “But what is plus size?” Like, I don't know what that means and I know that I’m on the edge. And I just remember my friend being like, “Oh my God, Corinne, you are not plus size.”VirginiaOh and she thought that was very reassuring. CorinneYeah, and I think also was genuinely like “you're not.” I was probably like a size 12 and plus size models are smaller than that.VirginiaYeah in modeling land, as we learned from the midsize queens, thats on the large size for many plus size models.CorinneYeah, I had a huge ribcage.The other childhood memory I have of fatness is I remember coming across the book Fat! So? VirginiaOh, by Marilyn Wann, right? CorinneYeah, in the public library. Like, I stumbled across it.VirginiaOh, what a great find for a kid! CorinneI know. I would love to know what librarian put it on a display shelf.VirginiaBless her or him or them.CorinneI found it and I remember being like, I really want to read this. I'm so interested, and also I don't want anyone to see me reading this and think that I'm fat. It felt very not allowed.VirginiaWere you fat at that point?CorinneI mean, I think it was probably around the same age, like I was probably like a size 12 or 14, but also like 12 years old, you know?VirginiaSo in that gray space where holding a book with the word fat on the cover, you would feel like you were announcing it. Like coming out.  CorinneYes, and suddenly people would notice that I was fat as if they hadn't been noticing the whole time. I think there is something about when you do sort of decide that you're going to embrace that word, you do have to admit that you are fat and people know you're fat. Like, there's this way in which if you don't talk about it, then no one notices. VirginiaIf you're not talking about it, even if they're noticing, maybe most people who are kind to you and in your life will not talk about it.CorinneAnd then I think around 2016, I really had a mind change around it. Honestly, I think it was really influenced by Shrill by Lindy West and also that This American Life episode. I think that was the first time that I was really seeing some of my experiences reflected back to me in media. And then I was fully just like, I'm fat. VirginiaThat's so powerful. Shrill was so powerful for so many people. The book and the show. That totally makes sense.CorinneWhat about you? VirginiaI don't have one moment like that, like finding Marilyn Wann or finding Lindy. And I think part of it is because my fatness came on quite gradually, if that makes sense. Like I was a thin kid, I had thin privilege. I got fatter my freshman year of college, but still wore straight sizes. Then did a lot of dieting and stuff in my 20s to stay in straight sizes. So my 30s were about giving up dieting and settling into my adult body, which has always intended itself to be a small fat body. So it was the process of stopping fighting that.But I think I struggled to claim it a little bit. Finding “small fat” was really helpful for me, because I didn't want to be claiming fat and implying that my experience was that of people who deal with more oppression than I do.The other piece of it that was more conscious was, that I really wanted to reclaim the word in our house around our kids. And by reclaim, I mean just claim it for them because they didn't have a negative association, you know? I wanted to give them a baseline of fat as a positive word. That helped me really lean into it.Particularly, I would say in the last five years or so, it's been really cool to see my kids use it in a very offhand whatever kind of way.  That is also why I put it in the book title. Preorder FAT TALK!And so, every interview I'm doing for the book now, I feel somewhat surprised, but also not, that one of the questions is always, “tell us, why do you use the word fat?” CorinneInteresting. VirginiaParticularly by straight size folks, I'm being asked it a lot. Like, “why do you say the word fat?” And, “do I have to say fat?” And, “can I say fat?” And, “what's the power of teaching kids to say fat?” It makes me realize how many people still are, like, nowhere with that reclaiming concept. CorinneJust in getting ready for this, I googled Fat! So? and was looking at some excerpts online and I was really struck by how relevant it seems. It seems like the same stuff we're talking about now in a lot of ways. And it came out in 1998. VirginiaOh, God. Thank you, Marilyn Wann. I don't think I realized it was quite that old. I thought it was like 2010s or something. CorinneYeah, I was really surprised. VirginiaIt must be very irritating to be in that first or second wave of fat activists who put all that work out and then there is all of us being like, “we've newly acquired this language,” and they're like, “yeah, it’s been there. Thanks. Thanks for that.” Yeah, we see the labor for sure.CorinneWell, on that note, we're gonna hear from a Burnt Toast community member named Valerie, just about the power of reclaiming that word. I am what's considered super fat, which is the terminology we use at the nolose fat liberation queer conference, where I really learned most of what I know about fat liberation. Even if someone can only see my face over Zoom, it's very clear that I am fat. And I have been fat since I was nine years old. I was very severely bullied in late elementary, middle, and high school for my weight. And though my parents never put me on a diet or made me feel bad directly about my body—and they are both in larger bodies—they dieted constantly in my youth, so I absorbed those messages anyway. It's important for me to use the term “fat” to destigmatize it, and emphasize it as a neutral term like height or hair color, as much as anything can be neutral. I find that when I lead a conversation by using the word fat, things go better. And using this language with children has been especially powerful as I use my standard script of, “oh, fat isn't a bad or good word. It's a neutral descriptive word. Someone can be thin or fat, tall or short, but any word can be used to hurt someone's feelings if you say it in a way that's intended to hurt them. But there shouldn't be anything bad or mean about saying that word fat.” I know I can't undo all of society's messaging, but I hope that at least being introduced to body neutral concepts by a fat adult can plant some positive seeds for the children in my life.VirginiaHearing Valerie's story is making me realize I don't want to talk about it, but I guess we have to talk about “The Whale” and the travesty that is Brendan Fraser’s Oscar and the makeup artist Oscar. Listening to Valerie talk about all this so beautifully, I'm just again, like, why did they think it was okay to tell this story without talking to, from what we can tell, any super fat people at all? It just was nowhere part of their work. Or even a moderately fat person, I don't feel like was consulted in the making.CorinneI have to admit I've been kind of avoiding hearing about “The Whale.” VirginiaVery valid. We will not use details here because I don't want to trigger anyone. It's so toxic. CorinneDid you watch it?VirginiaNo. I'm extremely grateful to Lindy West and Roxane Gay who really took that bullet for all of us. They both watched it. I felt like enough folks watched it and wrote beautiful critiques and I am reading their critiques and learning from them and do not need to put myself through it. But it was really a selfless act for them to do that, because it does not sound like a pleasant viewing experience at all. It's just maddening.I didn't watch the Oscars, either, because I go to bed early. But just seeing the clips afterwards and seeing just so much joy for him. And like, “Oh, he's always been this amazing, wonderful actor,” and his speech was full of fat jokes and weird references. Corinneoh god.VirginiaI'm sorry. I can't celebrate him. You cannot, as a dominant group, take a marginalized group’s story and decide you can do whatever you want with it. It's unacceptable. Even if you land on a few powerful moments. Even if you manage to come up with a few things that resonate as true for some people in that marginalized group. It’s still not okay. CorinneIt does feel like we're really at the point in culture where like taking on someone else's identity for entertainment purposes is not cool. VirginiaLike we could move past that.We don't need to keep ranting about “The Whale.” Valerie, thank you for sharing your experience. We need more of these stories. I also really like what Valerie says about how powerful it is to talk to kids about this and to explain that fat as a neutral, descriptive word with kids. Because I hear this a ton from parents. With fat parents, I think it's like, “I'm figuring out how I feel about the word but also what do I do with my kids?” And with straight-size parents, it's like this total deer-in-headlights moment, when their child uses the word fat. They're like, “I don't want to imply that fat is bad, but I also don't want them to hurt people's feelings. What do I do?”So let's hear from Bea, who had some great thoughts about that.I have kids in the loudly-saying-awkward-things phase. It's easy when it's about me.“Mama, Little Witch Hazel in the book looks like you. She's fat. She has hairy legs and long hair.”“Oh, wow. Yeah. And her nose sunburns like mine.”Not hard to treat the word “fat” as applied to me as if it's perfectly neutral. But when they talk about other people, if they say, “that person is in a wheelchair,” I can say, “Yep, isn't it cool? We all get around differently.”“That person's skin is brown.”“Yes, it's beautiful how many colors people are made in.”I want race and disability and body size to be things they can talk about, without shame. And without the idea that their small, white, able bodies are in any way better than others. But when they say that person's fat, it's hard to say. “Yep, it's great that bodies come in all different shapes and sizes.” Because of the “yep.” Because the person may not feel neutral about being called fat. My four year old recently, exuberantly told our neighbor that her legs were really big. And the neighbor just grinned. But I was at a loss for words other than quietly reminding the kid that every body is great and in our culture, we still don't comment on other people's bodies.CorinneBea is touching on the fact that while a lot of people have reclaimed the word fat, it still can be used as an insult and it's kind of hard to walk that line. Because even though we might feel one way about the word, we can't really predict how someone else may feel about it. VirginiaAlso, kids’ ways of commenting are so specific. I love that the four year old is like, “your legs are really big.” That is such a kid way to put it. I'm glad the neighbor was fine with it, it seems. But I totally get as a parent, you're like, I don't even know what to do with that. It is tricky. And you want to make space for people's boundaries around talking about their bodies are really important to respect. And I think you can totally do that while framing fat as a positive thing. CorinneEven the thing about saying “we don't comment on other people's bodies,” it's like, do kids really hear that? I feel like 50 percent of what kids say is just commenting on what other people are doing.VirginiaI don't think they necessarily will get it and perfectly execute it, but I think it seeps in over time. Like, I don't comment a lot on my kids bodies. Do you know what I mean? I model that. I give them the same boundary. You're then teaching them that their bodies are their own. Another way it comes up a lot with kids is like siblings hitting each other. That is a good moment to be like, “we don't touch other people's bodies in ways they don't like.”Corinne Wow. Yeah.Virginia“So please stop pushing your sister because she took the Calico Critter you want to use.” CorinneNot to be specific. VirginiaNot that that happens in my house nine times a week. But anyway, I think of comments around fatness, other people's fatness, in that same vein. You're not shaming the fatness. You're just helping them understand body autonomy. CorinneThere's just been a lot going on on the internet around this. There have been a lot of fat creators who have decided to pursue weight loss. There’s been the whole “Midsize Queens” thing. I did just see Marielle Elizabeth post that Ozempic is actively seeking plus size content creators to work with. So, prepare yourself for that. VirginiaI assume Marielle was like, “Get the fuck out of town.”CorinneI think she was posting it as like, “Heads up. This is coming.” Like, this is being pitched to creators. VirginiaOf course it is. Of course it is. I mean, it's really hard because people's individual choices around their bodies are their own business. And, when fat creators take this turn, it often comes with a really clear intention to distance themselves from fatness. And that is really harmful. I mean, that is what we saw with Catherine's TikTok, responding to the creator whose name I forget [Note from Corinne: Gabriella Lascano, Google at your own risk]. She was saying things like, “I've had it all wrong,” and you know, “They've lied to you to think that it's okay to be this size.” It was very, like, conspiracy theorist and super unsettling to see that turn. CorinneI think the other thing that makes it so complicated is the money part. I don't know, my choice whether or not to pursue weight loss might change a lot if someone was paying me to do it. VirginiaThat's a great point. Yeah, that's super murky. I mean, that's like the actress from “This Is Us.”CorinneOh, Chrissy Metz? VirginiaIt was in her contract that that character was going to lose weight. And of course, for that actor, that was a breakout role. Like, how do you not say yes to that part? Well, then you're signing on to this whole thing. The other thing is, just because someone is public and fat does not mean they are a fat liberationist or a fat activist of any kind, right? That is something that I think we as consumers of content need to be more discerning about. Like, if you're following someone for their great plus size fashion, I hope it's Marielle Elizabeth who is also wildly articulate and brilliant about talking about fat liberation. But there's a lot of fat fashion influencers who have been very visible, but who are not necessarily focusing on fat liberation. That's a complicated space. CorinneFor me, it just keeps coming back to the money thing. You're not seeing someone who's just making a neutral choice. You're seeing someone who is being paid to advertise something. Virginia100 percent.It's also true that any fat person is experiencing the bias of going into doctor's offices and having their weight weaponized against them and having weight loss prescribed without any second thought. So, this is Layla talking about this experience of doctors offices and how that can really trigger the spiral of “I can't be this size” and needing to distance from fatness.A few years ago, I went to the doctor for what I thought was a routine checkup. And as they do before every appointment, they asked me to step on the scale. And I was pretty shocked at the number that I saw, it was the most I had ever weighed in my life. I knew that my clothes had been fitting tighter, I knew that I had put on weight after having a baby, after moving three times in four years, after COVID. So I meet the doctor, and she asks, “ I understand you have some questions about your weight.” And I say, “I noticed my weight has been steadily increasing, I don't even know the right question to ask. Like, am I overweight? Or am I fat?” And she scanned her computer and she said, “Well, according to the BMI chart, your current weight puts you in the obesity category.”So, I wasn't just fat, I was obese. And it felt like my brain was shrinking away from the sides of my skull. I just felt this hot prickle of shame on my skin and in my stomach. And what I heard in that moment was, “you eat too much.” The whole experience made me feel very shameful. But it also really forced me to reconcile the bias I’d had against fat people and also made me wonder how, as a woman, I'm supposed to navigate what my doctor is telling me with what society wants from me, what I want for myself, and what I want to be able to model for my young daughter when it comes to having a positive body image. And so I really appreciated this question about who gets to call themselves fat, and really hope to learn more about how to understand and be an ally for people who are in fact, in larger bodiesVirginiaThis is a complicated one, right? And listening to this, I mostly just thinking, wow. If we had true weight inclusive health care where getting on the scale was not going to dictate your entire fucking medical appointment, Layla would probably have a completely different relationship with her body. And so would millions of other people. CorinneYeah, I found this one honestly relatable because the experience of going to the doctor's office as a person in a larger body is like you're trying so hard to prove yourself, like, prove that you're ‘the good fatty’ or whatever. To me it sounds like she's almost trying to end-run the doctor being like, “you need to lose weight.”VirginiaThat makes sense. And I know from interviewing doctors about this, that there's a weird chicken and egg thing where often the patients bring up weight loss because they assume the doctor wants them to be losing weight. Then the doctor is like, well, they asked about weight loss so I have to prescribe weight loss. It's a weird self-fulfilling prophecy being driven by bias on both sides, which is a very complicated dynamic. And I say this not to criticize the patient who brings that up. That's an understandable survival strategy in a very fraught encounter. But it definitely narrows the scope of the conversation. Who knows what else was going on with her health? She mentioned having had a baby, getting through COVID, moving a bunch, so tons of stress. Maybe weight gain is not the most important thing about what's going on with Layla’s health.CorinneYeah, and shame just doesn't help.VirginiaThis also shows why it's important, to whatever extent feels possible, to neutralize the concept of fatness. Because if we didn't have that knee jerk shame response, it also wouldn't matter so much when doctors bring it up in the way they do. Which is not to say it's on you not to experience bias, because you're experiencing bias. But if we could more clearly hold that, the way you would if someone made a racist statement. This is that person's problem. Not a problem with my body. Holding onto that is hard to do with this.CorinneOne of the reasons why we do reclaim the word fat is to also be able to acknowledge and center the experience of people who are experiencing more stigma. And now we're going to hear from Ann.For me, reclaiming fat has been part of the work I'm doing to prepare to be a parent in a few years. My mom has her own struggles with her weight, even getting bariatric surgery at one point and it made me really uncomfortable with who I was. For some things being midfat is annoying, like planes, restaurants, seats. For some things, it's frustrating. I'm starting to be sized out of in store Torrid and Lane Bryant, for example. But the biggest thing that frustrates me is buying furniture or tools. I needed to buy an 8’ ladder for my house. Every single one I looked at was rated for 250 pounds or under. I couldn't even find a ladder that would accommodate my weight. Or if I do find something weight rated for me, like folding chairs, it's super ugly or not as useful as the straight size. Some people don't even have to think about a chair breaking on you.CorinneHard relate. It's so hard to find shit like chairs.VirginiaYeah, I had a friend tell me recently that our dining chairs are not super comfortable for her to sit in and I was horrified. I'm really glad she told me. They have arms and I think they just cut in too much? So I do now have two armless ones that we can bring out when someone comes over. I really wanted to use this as an excuse to buy an entire new set of dining room chairs, but that felt somewhat excessive. Although, obviously, every seat at my table should be size inclusive.CorinneYou do have a good excuse now. It's an accessibility issue in your private dining room.VirginiaBut I do now have some better chairs. This is maddening. This is maddening that it is, in so many realms of life. CorinneAlso, just… a ladder? You know not everyone using ladder is 250 pounds or less. There's no way on earth!VirginiaAbsolutely not. That's really just so dangerous. Ladders freak me out just baseline. I'm really scared of ladders, so the idea that like they aren't making them sturdy enough is really upsetting.CorinneIt seems like the cut off is so often like 250 pounds. I'm just so curious how that became the number. VirginiaIt's probably some industrial technicality like that's the scale they have to test the stuff. CorinneLike it only goes up to 250? VirginiaLike it has nothing to do with any market research on who their customer is or what sizes people's bodies actually come in. They're like, this is the scale we have here in the factories. There's no thought in trying to be size inclusive or they would have found a way to both make a better ladder and rate it higher.CorinneOr maybe it's a liability thing. Like they're only responsible for if the ladder breaks for someone who weighs under that amount.VirginiaSo maybe that's an incentive to get it as low as possible, to be responsible for the least number of people falling off your ladder. Oh, god, that's so shitty. I think you're right.This one also reminded me that as we're talking about language, it is useful to make the distinction between midfat and midsize. This has tripped me up in the past. We now all know from midsize queens, that midsize is like, a size four with a large ribcage. Or technically it was supposed to be between straight and plus sizes, but it's being very misused and being used to distance from fatness very concretely. Whereas midfat is between small fat and super fat, right? CorinneThis is from The Fat Lip. Midfat is defined as 2x/3x, Sizes 20-24, Torrid 2-3.VirginiaGot it. Okay. And of course, that's super confusing because sizing is not standardized at retailers. There's so many brands where the 3x is like a 1x somewhere else. But just having the language is useful.CorinneOkay, next we're gonna hear from Krisanne who had an experience where she actually didn't use the word fat, but I think reclaiming the word is what enabled her to do this advocacy.So by the definitions of the fat community, I would be considered midfat. I've been small fat or midfat for most of my life. But at 52 years old, it's only been in the last couple of years that I've felt comfortable using the term “fat” as a neutral term to describe my body. I had a lot of things to unpack with that term always being derogatory, but now it's just a fact. So I'm trying to be very cognizant when I use it that people know that I'm being neutral, that it's really obvious. I'm just stating a fact about my body size and I'm not passing a judgment about myself.If I'm in a situation where I don't want to get into it, I don't want to open up a discussion about the term fat, I'll just say “larger body.” Like when I was trying out office chairs at the furniture showroom, I said to the sales guy that one thing I really appreciated about the chair I ended up buying was that it came in three different sizes, so I could get one that was actually designed to fit my larger body. I wanted him to know that I valued that aspect of the product and that that was part of why I was buying it. But I didn't need to get into the bigger discussion about the word fat. So large or larger would be those factual but not as loaded words that I will use if fat feels like it's too much in the context.One word I'm not a fan of is curvy, because first of all, it's euphemistic, but it's also inaccurate for me. I'm not curvy. I don't have an hourglass shape. I don't have large breasts. And it's also a word that emphasizes some sort of feminine “ideal” and it seems to be coded as fat but still stereotypically feminine, as if that's a thing that I'm supposed to aspire to.CorinneI liked this comment a lot. I could relate. And I think I've done the same thing myself. It's just that thing where you know someone else might be uncomfortable with the word fat, so you use “larger body” or something like that to describe the same thing. I also liked what Krisanne had to say about the word curvy and feeling like it wasn't a word that applied.VirginiaYes. You think curvy, you think hourglass shape. And as someone who's not an hourglass shape, I'm always like, what do I do with that? But who does have boobs, for the record. I don't know. It's just a weird. A weird term because it comes with this whole like set of definitions about which curves are good.CorinneIt feels like curvy is like you can still be like curvy and be sexy. There's something, like Krisanne says, feminine or something like that.VirginiaThere are so many terrible euphemisms. Fluffy is another one that drives me crazy. CorinneOh, my God! Fluffy is the one I was gonna bring up. I hate that one.VirginiaI admit, there was a point in my life where I thought it was cute. And I'm not okay with that.I also think that euphemisms are just so unhelpful, like you said when you were reading that teen magazine and not knowing what plus size meant. This is the other reason to reclaim fat and to use fat if you feel any identity with it, because: Let's just be clear about what we're fucking saying. And not dress it up. All right. So we're going to end with Lauren who shares a recent experience where being able to say “I'm fat” helped to concretely improve a medical experience.This one is just lovely. Lauren, yay you. I love that you did this advocacy. And I love that the physical therapist was so responsive.I'm looking for a physical therapist for a shoulder injury in addition to some other things. Filtering for my neighborhood, there were two insurance possibilities. One openly said that they'll help you with weight loss, which is a huge red flag. So I took a chance, on the strength of a very upfront Black Lives Matter policy, and filled out the intake form for the other physical therapist. This physical therapist called me a few days later to confirm my appointment and see if I wanted to be put on a waitlist to get in sooner. We talked about my complaints a bit: primary shoulder with secondary leg tendonitis. But she hadn't gone over my forms yet. We hung up.No more than 30 seconds later, she called me back having looked over my information on the intake form. There's a spot for anything you'd want them to know, so I wrote something to the effect of “I am fat, I believe in a weight neutral framework and will not accept weight loss as a treatment suggestion as my complaints are unrelated to my body size. I just request that if you're not comfortable working with a Health at Every Size philosophy that you let me know so I can continue researching PTs. But if you do, I'm looking forward to working with you.”So back to this physical therapist. Calling me back, she sounded so excited. “I just love how you advocated for yourself and you have absolutely contacted the right place. The local newspaper just did a three parts on a piece about how our medical system is overly focused on weight loss and the O-word epidemic and I cut out the article from the Sunday paper and hung it up because it's important to remind myself and also let other people know where my values are.” I'm all about building strength and balance in the body you have and helping you do the things that you want to do. For me, it was such a shot in the dark and such an incredible affirmation from a thin medical professional. I started with him this month and maybe it will be different experience once we get going though I kind of doubt it. Listening to you, Virginia, and Aubrey Gordon and Mikey and so many others, as well as finding community in the comment sections, the Facebook groups and cultivating my care team to be weight neutral has been such a life changing experience. Embracing the reality and cutting through the bullshit has led to some really positive relationships in my life. Thank you.CorinneI loved the physical therapists response. It made me really happyVirginiaThat she had the newspaper article cut out? Amazing. More of this. And I think this just really underscores why, even if you're in a context where you're not exactly using the word fat, like in the previous story, I think the act of reclaiming it is what enables you to then do that kind of advocacy.CorinneYesVirginiaThank you so much for everyone who sent in your voice memos. We really love hearing from you. It's so fun to have all your voices on the show. And I hope this discussion was helpful or if you are someone who's thinking about how to use this word, maybe this moved you a little bit forward towards feeling good about saying fat.ButterVirginiaWe are going to wrap up like we always do with butter. Corinne, what do you have for us?CorinneMy butter is a an essay that I just saw from the writer Carmen Maria Machado. She just published kind of a musing on the movie "The Whale," which we just talked about. The piece is called When Whales Fly. And I recommend it. It was just a really good read.VirginiaAnd again, I'm so grateful to everyone who was willing to interact with that movie in order to produce much better art. That's really the best possible outcome of that travesty. So thank you, Carmen, always for your beautiful work. My Butter is the leggings I keep talking about. If you're following me on Instagram, or read Tuesday’s newsletter, I'm sorry. You've already heard about this. But I just tried Girlfriend Collective for the first time. And, like, can you even call yourself into fat fashion if you haven't done Girlfriend Collective? I feel like I just got a punch on my card or something. It was important that I do this. I have the high waist compression leggings. And they are the only leggings I have had in a very long time that do not fall down.Now, I will tell you, when I said that on Instagram, I immediately heard from a bunch of people who said they fall down. Because that's how clothes work. Like, I can't guarantee this. I did hear from a lot of hourglass shaped people saying this. So maybe the fit model may be more of an apple, for lack of a better word, shape. So if that is your struggle—and it's not a struggle, our bodies are great. But if clothes that fit that shape is your struggle, then this might be a good brand for you. They're super comfortable, they do not fall down. They really hold their shape, no saggy knees, etc. The fabric is very thick. At first I was like, will these move with me? Like, it's dense. But I actually really like it and it's probably more athletic feeling. I don't think these are a dressy legging.CorinneLike a little shiny?VirginiaIt's a little shiny, but I don't mind it. I'm enjoying it. And I did get the Paloma bra to go with it. That's just one of their sports bras that I'm also really liking and this is my first time doing like a “set.”CorinneDid you get a cute color?VirginiaI got navy blue, but I might have wild iris on order. It hasn't come yet, so stay tuned because it's a really pretty periwinkle/purple. (Spoiler: It has arrived.)CorinneThat sounds amazing. VirginiaI'm not wearing them to be athletic in, I was wearing them to do my taxes last weekend and I was like, “Everything about this day is a dumpster fire but I do love my outfit.” So that was good. CorinneYeah, I recently started wearing a lot more leggings because of going to the gym. Like I started wearing to them to the gym and then I was like, “Wow these are so comfortable.”Virginiaand you're like why am I wearing real pants? CorinneI need to be wearing leggings all the time. VirginiaYeah, well you were doing actual athletic things in them with your weightlifting.CorinneI mean it went from that to everyday life.VirginiaI have different leggings I wear if I'm going to do one of my Lauren videos or go walk the dog in the woods. And these are my nice leggings. CorinneOh wow. Okay.VirginiaThese are my cute leggings.CorinneWow, fancy leggings. I mean, they do wear out.VirginiaFor a long time I was on the Universal Standard bandwagon of leggings and those leggings don't fall down either. They're very high waisted ones. CorinneOkay WHICH ones though? Because they have like 10 different leggings. VirginiaMaybe I have next to naked?CorinneIs it like a matte?VirginiaIt's matte and it’s much thinner. It's much thinner than the Girlfriend Collective. And my criticism of them is that they pill in the thighs. CorinneOh, yes. Are they black?VirginiaI have black and navy and I have like a seafoam color.CorinneYes, that's the next to naked. VirginiaOkay. Super comfortable.CorinneThose ones do pill.VirginiaAnd there's not really any compression. And I didn't know that I liked compression. I want to be clear, I'm not saying compression like makes me look thinner. I still look fat. I just like it. It feels more…CorinneA sensory thing?VirginiaIt's a nice sensory experience.CorinneYes, like being wrapped in a little cocoon.VirginiaTotally. I like it and I know Mia O'Malley was talking about this and how it helped her feel more supported, like her belly and her back. I mean, it's mild. It's not like you're wearing a back brace. It's just like, I feel like my posture is a little better in them. Anyway have you tried Girlfriend Collective?CorinneI feel like I tried them a long time ago and I remember thinking they fell down.VirginiaDon't trust me on anything, guys.CorinneThe leggings I like now are Superfit Hero.VirginiaThey are next on my list. CorinneI actually think they are similar. But they have a pocket which I really like. VirginiaThat's an upgrade.CorinneAnd it's the athletic-y material. They don't have a waistband and then I like these ones from Universal Standard that are more cottony and have a waistband. I do wear them to the gym but I also would wear them to run errands or whatever. But it's not an athletic material, It feels more just like a stretchy pants.VirginiaThis is good intel. Alright people, this was a great conversation about fatness and also an unexpected deep dive into leggings science.Thank you so much for listening to Burnt Toast!CorinneIf you'd like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.

Today Virginia is chatting with Chrissy King. Chrissy's new book, The Body Liberation Project: How Understanding Racism and Diet Culture Helps Cultivate Joy and Build Collective Freedom is out this week. It’s an incredible mix of memoir and cultural analysis and an exploration of the intersection of racism and diet culture. And remember, if you order it from the Burnt Toast Bookshop, you can get 10 percent off if you also preorder (or have already preordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSFollow Chrissy on Instagram, Tiktok, and TwitterWe are recording your April  Mailbag episode soon. Send us all your questions here. Wondering how we pick which Qs to answer? The mailbag episodes are for hot takes, funny anecdotes, clothing recs, or random facts you want to know about us. You can ask something more complicated, just know that anything that requires research and reporting gets put in a different “future Ask Virginia/essay ideas” pile. 3 amazing Black dietitians to follow: Jessica Jones and Wendy Lopez and Jessica WilsonThe Body Is Not an ApologyFearing the Black Bodythe AAP guidelinesChrissy's pottery TikToksSouper CubesCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.Episode 85 TranscriptChrissyMy name is Chrissy King, I'm originally from the Midwest. I'm from Wisconsin and I've been in Brooklyn for the past three years. I worked a corporate job for a very long time and then became a fitness professional, worked in the fitness industry. During the course of that, I started writing, and talking, about the need for more diversity, inclusion, and anti-racism work in the wellness industry. And talking a lot about my own body image journey, which has led me to the work that I'm doing now. So, now I'm primarily a writer, I'm an educator, and I still do a lot of my work within the wellness industry.VirginiaAnd we are here to celebrate your new book, The Body Liberation Project, which I just got to read. The book is so smart and thoughtful. I loved how you weave your personal story together with all the larger issues that you're grappling with. Tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write this and how you decided to use your personal story in the larger context?ChrissyThank you for the kind words about the book. I'm so excited for it. I went to college for social welfare and justice, so social justice and issues around race and white supremacy have always been at the core of whatever work I was doing in whatever capacity. When I got into fitness, I saw that so many of those issues were unaddressed in the fitness industry. Especially prior to George Floyd—I always say that's the mark at which people in the wellness industry started talking about these issues.VirginiaTo folks outside of this world, those two issues—George Floyd and the fitness industry—feel so disconnected. I wonder if you could connect the dots a little more there and talk about why that particular event? ChrissyI think about George Floyd and that moment in history, that moment in time, a lot. Because prior to George Floyd, I was reading articles about anti-racism and DEI and the need for that in wellness. I was talking about the impact of racism on the health of black folks in particular, and why in the wellness industry—where the goal is to help people be well—we have to be talking about all these other issues, right? Prior to George Floyd, people just weren't as interested in the conversation. They didn't understand the importance of talking about these issues as they related to wellness. I mean, some people did. But generally speaking, the larger population in the wellness and fitness industry did not see why that was necessary and didn't even really want to address it. When George Floyd happened, it was a very interesting turning point. I still don't know, when I think through it, what was so different about that event in time. Because George Floyd was just one of many situations that have occurred over the years. So I don't know if it was because it was also in the height of the pandemic and people were largely at home and less distracted by life. Obviously, the video went viral and was shown all over the globe, actually. So I don't know why that situation changed things. But I felt like people in the wellness space were like, “OH, racism is a real issue that's affecting people, that is also having an impact on people's health. And it's something that we should be talking about,” in ways that people just weren't interested in having the conversations before. In a lot of ways it was a good thing because it opened up a lot of discussion. Now we're nearly three years after that and I don't know how much of an impact it had in actual practice. It was a weird time because it was like, wow, I'm glad that people are really willing to have this conversation now. And on the flip side, like, this is really disheartening that we had to have something of this extent happen for people to start acknowledging that it was important.Virginia It should not have taken that for people to reckon with this. And there was a lot of very performative awareness. I remember at the time watching folks like you and Jessica Jones and Wendy Lopez and Jessica Wilson. You all were inundated with interview requests, article requests. Like, “please talk to us about this.” I just remember thinking, This is not the way. This is not a fair ask of these women who had been doing this work for so long, who should be honored for that, and are now being asked, in this time of grief, to be saving us all. There was a weird energy, I just want to name that.ChrissyIt was a weird energy. Because, on one hand, I'm like, great! I'm happy people are willing to have these conversations. But there was a lot of collective grief and trauma, right? You're right. It was like, I'm being inundated with all of these requests and very much a sense of urgency from people, right? Like, “we need this right now.”Virginia“Right now. We have to have this conversation that is 200 years overdue.”ChrissyIt's so strange. But prior to that, I was doing a lot of this work because no one was having those conversations. Thinking about my own journey with body image, I struggled with body image and yo-yo dieting since I was 10 or 11 years old. I've always been really obsessed about my weight. Growing up in the Midwest and going to a school where I was the only like Black girl in my class—there were only two other black kids in the school, my brother and sister—I always felt like I was trying to reach the standards of beauty that I couldn't actually reach. One of the ways that I could aspire to be what I thought was beautiful is I could be thinner, I could be smaller.When I was working with clients as a trainer, most of the clients I worked with were women. And I would say every single client I had was struggling with body image issues and were coming to the gym with a desire to lose weight, with the belief that that would fix their issues with their body. And I did the same thing and what I realized through weight loss is that I still had the same body image issues I started with—and in a lot of ways they were worse. It wasn't the weight that was the problem. It was the system, the standards of beauty that have been created that we are trying to aspire to. White supremacy, actually. That's the culprit. Our bodies are not the problem. That's what inspired me to write this book. Because, unfortunately, so many of us are spending so many years of our lives, focused on shrinking and obsessing about our weight. I think that all of us have very specific magic to do in the world and it doesn't have anything to do with what we look like. The sooner we can work to repair that relationship with our bodies, I think the easier it is for us to live lives that feel nourishing and full, that aren't focused on trying to be smaller.VirginiaYes! So you come from a social justice background in terms of your college and early work, and then there's kind of a pivot into fitness, which you talk about in the book. When you were studying social justice and in that place, were you connecting the dots between that and fitness culture?ChrissyNo, I was definitely not connecting any dots back then. Especially when I was in college, I was very much in diet culture as a participant, right? I was making no connections to the similarities and the ways in that which white supremacy wreaks havoc in all areas, basically, in very similar ways. It wasn't until I had been a trainer for a few years. I had been competing in powerlifting. I was the leanest I've ever been, I was the strongest I’ve ever been. And I had this moment, I call it my rock bottom moment. I just realized I was still so so miserable in my body. All the things I thought [getting lean was] gonna fix, that didn't change any of it. It actually made it worse in a lot of ways.And it was then when I really started to think about body image and think about why I was struggling so much. I started to explore my relationship with body image and I read The Body Is Not an Apology. That book was transformational for me in a lot of ways. And that's when I first started thinking about the intersection or the connections between social justice and body image and that so many of the same themes apply in the same way. Then I started to think back to when I was younger, when I was 9 or 10, and looking at pictures of people that were touted as the most beautiful people in the world. They were thin and blond and blue eyed, and they didn't look anything like me. And starting to realize that's a big piece of why I was struggling, because I was trying to reach these standards of beauty and I didn't see myself represented in them. That's when I started to really put things together in my mind. And then I read Fearing the Black Body by Dr. Sabrina Strings, and I started to understand the origin of fatphobia going back to slavery, its very roots are in racism and white supremacy. That's when I started making the connections between social justice and fatphobia, body image, the fitness industry, the wellness industry in general.VirginiaI'm thinking about this in the context of the news about the AAP guidelines and who's championing those guidelines. So many of the people who are saying, “No, this is what we need to do, we need to be prescribing diets and surgery and drugs for kids,” would identify themselves as liberal, as progressive, as social justice-oriented, would have posted something about George Floyd, and are not connecting the dots between, “oh, I think racism is bad,” and “Actually, I am perpetuating it in this work.”ChrissyIt's one of the things that I think is so important about doing the work of anti-racism, really like taking the time to really understand it and sit with how it really shows up in our lives. Because what you're saying is true. It's the same people who are maybe championing these things would be the same people to say like racism is bad or post a black square or talk about George Floyd but not understanding the way that white supremacy is seeping into every area of our lives and how it's really informing our decisions in ways that are inherently racist, right? That's the difficult work, to not just read the books and take the courses, but to really sit with and understand how it's informing all the decisions that we're making.VirginiaA problem you tackle very head on in the book is the way white feminism in particular, as an arm of white supremacy, has erased the original intentions and the original advocates for the body positivity movement. This is so important. And yet, body positivity, the way it is currently portrayed on social media, still remains this important entry point for lots of folks. So I'm just wondering if you can talk a little about why staying in that entry point isn't taking the work far enough?ChrissyUnfortunately, as body positivity has become more mainstream and more commercialized, it has definitely been co-opted by thinner bodies, straight size even, a lot of white women. It has definitely centered people that weren't supposed to be centered in the movement and in a lot of ways erased the creators of the movement, and that's very harmful.And: I think body positivity is still a good point of entry for people to start thinking about their bodies differently. It offers people a way to even just consider that there's other options to think about their bodies and diet culture. So it still serves its purpose in a lot of ways. And, there's also still problems with that. I think both things can be true. Unfortunately, as it's become more commercialized, it has also been hyper focused on this idea of “self love” as the answer, right? It’s a lot of affirmations about loving your body. When you look under the hashtag on Instagram, you see, a lot of people showing rolls or dimples or stretch marks and saying, but I still love myself. And it's like, that's great. I'm happy for you. I also want to be clear that although the movement was created and founded by fat, Black and brown women, it does not mean—in my opinion, at least—other people can't participate. But I think it's really important to be mindful that the focus should be on the most marginalized identities among us, right? And I think that what also happens with the body positivity spaces, people conflate having body image issues on a personal level—most of us do have personal body image issues, right? But not liking your stretch marks or not liking jiggle on your thighs is very different than living in a body that is systemically oppressed.I think that people fail to realize that distinction, sometimes, when we start having this conversation about the problems within this space. And it's like, no, we're not saying everybody can't participate. We're saying, though, it's really important to understand that distinction. And to make sure you're not taking up too much space in something that wasn't created for someone like you to be at the center of the movement.VirginiaIt's a balance I struggle with in my own work, obviously, as a fat creator, but also a white woman. This balance between working on your personal issues and understanding the larger narrative, I think, is a really tricky one to find because people's pain is real. And it's worth dealing with, of course. And, the work can’t end there.So another thing I really admire about your book is that you're giving readers lots of tools. There are journal questions, you're sharing your own story. There are lots of ways to do the work while reading Chrissy’s book. And you make it so clear that this isn't the endpoint, that you're going to keep going. And you give tools for thinking about, acknowledging the harm you've caused, and reckoning with all of that in such important ways. ChrissyTo your point, we are all getting it wrong, no matter who we are. And I think that's such an important piece to acknowledge. Because, for me, the goal is not that we always get it right, because that's not possible. The goal is that when we get it wrong, we can acknowledge the harm that we may have caused and work to be better going forward. That is the work.VirginiaThat was a very white lady way for me to put it, like, “I'm trying to get it right.” That’s the perfectionism and that bullshit coming up. So, yes!ChrissyI just brought that back because I think we all do that, though, in some way, right? When white folks get it wrong, sometimes it can feel like “But I tried to do the right thing!” And it's like, “No, no, keep trying do the right thing,” and recognize that this work is messy. You're going to get it wrong and more important than getting it wrong is how do you rectify and do better going forward. Getting it wrong is literally part of the process. So when I talk in the book about personal liberation and collective liberation, it's like, I do believe that we have to work initially on our personal liberation, because when you're in the depths of diet culture and self hate and body shame, it's not possible for you to help anyone. You barely can keep yourself afloat. As you start to work through these things, you free up that energy, then you start to say, okay, how are we working to collectively dismantle systems, collectively dismantle oppression, so that people, all identities and all backgrounds can also feel freedom in their bodies and feel freedom and to exist in the world? Because we recognize that we are all interconnected. And truly, none of us are free unless all of us are free. And then that goes to the point of always working towards dismantling white supremacy in our lives, because at the core, white supremacy is at the root of all the issues.I think with white supremacy, it's really important to remember that although some of us are affected more than others by white supremacy, of course, ultimately all of us are affected by it. And so when the most marginalized among us are free, we are all free here to exist.VirginiaI've personally found it helpful, as I was doing the work on my own stuff, to understand that larger context. That is a motivation that speaks to me, when sometimes just doing it for yourself isn't enough. Does that make sense? If I’m causing harm to others, then of course I need to get my shit in order in a way that maybe I couldn't give myself permission to just get my shit in order for myself. Which is something I can unpack with my therapist later. ChrissyWriting this book was also therapeutic for me in ways that I didn't even expect. It's like, when you're a child and you're having these experiences, you feel othered. And you don't have this larger understanding or context. So the ways that the world works, or how white supremacy works and operates, it feels very much like something is wrong with me personally, when you're having that experience. And now, being older and wiser and having done a lot of this work, I can understand that there was never something wrong with me, there's something wrong with the system, right?VirginiaWith your friend’s dad making the horrible comments.ChrissyLike, that had nothing to do with me. He was the problem not me, right? VirginiaHe was definitely the problem.ChrissyBut when you're 8 or 9, you're like, oh, no, something's wrong with being Black. You can't really understand how to process that as a child. Now I can look back and be like, okay, I was never the problem. And I also think that that's why it's so helpful to do this work for ourselves in terms of body image and body liberation because we can realize that.And that's one of the things, too. Going back to body positivity, sometimes it makes it feel like you just have to learn to love yourself, right? And when we look at it as an individual problem, the onus is on us as a person. Like, I am personally failing to be able to love my body. I am personally failing to feel comfortable in my skin. And when we can look at the bigger picture and say, Oh, no, there's this all these systems in place that are really the problem. It's not a personal issue.That's the problem with not being able to see that the systems are the problem. Whether it's about our bodies or whether it's about economics or whether it's about the criminal justice system, it puts the onus on the individual. The individual is the problem, when in actuality, when we look at it, it's the systems that are creating the problems that we are experiencing. It's not a personal failing. So learning these things really helped me to release a lot of the trauma that I had around circumstances growing up and socialization in general. And in the book, I even talk about how in hindsight, I feel like I'm still processing 2020. A lot happened that year, right? But one of the things I will say about 2020 is I made the most money I've ever made professionally in my life during that time. I felt like people were throwing money at trying to fix racism.VirginiaOh yes.ChrissyI think that, unfortunately, it was a lot of performative allyship and performative activism happening. And a lot of knee-jerk reactions with people realizing, “Oh, we have to do something. Let's just get this person in here. Let's ask this person to do this training, let's donate money!” And I talked about this in the book: People I didn't even know were just sending me Venmos. I think that people just were scrambling. The harmful part about that, too, is when you approach something as a white person saying I need to unlearn racism or white supremacy, and then you just go into overdrive, what happens is you burn out really quickly, you know? Because it is uncomfortable to to start doing that work.I think people were really excited and then burned out really fast. And, you know, we’re talking about anti-racism. It's not warm and fuzzy and it's not self-improvement work, right? It can be really jarring in a lot of ways. I think people got really excited about doing the work and they burned out really quickly. And also realizing that when we're talking about doing the work on a day to day, it takes real action and it takes making difficult decisions. It takes having hard conversations. And I think that people, some people, unfortunately weren't really ready to commit to what it takes to dismantle something like white supremacy.VirginiaI mean, it's diet culture all over again, right? They wanted the crash diet approach to ending racism.ChrissyYes, exactly! VirginiaThey wanted to jump in there and sweat it out for 30 days.ChrissyAnd then be like, “Okay, we did it!”VirginiaWe can’t actually boot camp this one.ChrissyYes. That's the best analogy I've heard. It was like a crash diet. Yes, exactly.VirginiaI mean, it kind of makes sense the wellness industry in particular responded that way since that's the model, right? ChrissyThat's kind of how it operates.VirginiaAnother chapter I wanted to talk about is the chapter on grief and mourning our bodies. This was just really beautifully written. Why do you think making space for this mourning process is so important? And and how does that contribute to the larger goal of body liberation for all?ChrissyThank you. I really love that chapter, too. I think it's so important because when you break up with diet culture and you're leaning into body liberation and repairing your relationship with your body image, the one thing I think we don't talk about enough is that we live in a world in which thin privilege exists. People do treat you differently based in the way your body looks. That's just the truth. When I had been used to living in a thinner body for a long time, I grew accustomed to people responding to me based on the way I looked, right? I grew accustomed to people complimenting me on my looks or asking me what type of workouts I did, or asking me all these questions that gave me the external validation that I was seeking. So when you inevitably decide to reckon with diet culture and you decide to, for me anyways, I decided to stop obsessively counting my macros. I decided to stop working out every day of the week or multiple hours. And naturally, what happens is your body changes, and that's just the truth. That means that people respond to your body differently. That's when the rubber meets the road. You have to really be like, Okay, where am I deriving my worth from? And I think it's also easy to look back at old pictures of yourself and be like, Oh, I loved when I looked like that.VirginiaAnd you forget that you were actually hungry or you were actually hurting your body. ChrissyYes, I was starving! Right.VirginiaYes, we forget those details.ChrissyIt's so important, when you have those moments, to maybe remember where was I mentally, emotionally, physically, what space was I in, and then I just remember, I was in a terrible, terrible place, right? None of that was really worth it. But I do think it's important to give your self the time and the space to grieve that. And also, on top of that, other people will even comment that your body is changing. So it's like, besides you trying to grieve it yourself, then you have this impact of like, what other people may be commenting. I think it's just important to acknowledge that, it’s not the case for everyone. But for some of us, we will feel like we lost something in some way, or we changed in ways that maybe we weren't anticipating. When we're talking about breaking up with diet culture, the benefits are always more than what you lose, but there is a sense of loss sometimes. And I just think it's important to be honest about that.VirginiaWhen we're naming it in this larger context, too, it's important to be honest that you're losing privilege, that you're losing power, that you're gaining other things. It's better, but also, like, you had this privilegeChrissyAnd now you don't have it. That's why it's also so important for all of us as we're going through our own journey to really hold ourselves with compassion. And I say this again, especially for people with more marginalized identities, when you feel like maybe being thin is one of the only privileges that you have it feels even harder to let go of that, right? When you're feeling like that's the one place where I feel like I have some power or some proximity to privilege or proximity to whiteness. And now I'm supposed to let go of that, too. I think that's why it’s like holding so much compassion and kindness and grace for ourselves for all of the emotions, because it's very nuanced. And there's lots of layers to it.VirginiaI also really loved—on a slightly lighter note, I guess, from mourning—the chapter on love and dating and body liberation was just fantastic. ChrissyYes, so I got married very young. I got married when I was 22. And we were together until I was 33. We went to high school together. So we already knew each other from high school. We started dating right after high school. So I was basically with this person from like 19 to 33. So that was pretty much you know, my entire formative years were spent with the same person. So then when we divorced, I was like, “Oh, no now I have to date.” And so I think it's already scary dating when you haven't literally dated pretty much as an adult ever. I just haven't dated at all. VirginiaWhen the last date was prom. ChrissyRight, I haven't had a first date since prom. So that's a long time. So that's already scary.VirginiaCompletely relate, I've been with my partner since high school as well. ChrissyOkay. So you get it!VirginiaYeah. Yeah. Yeah.ChrissySo just imagine next week, you have to start dating. You don't want to think about it, right? And I'm heterosexual so I date men and it's even scarier. And then I'm in a different body than I was. It's one thing to be comfortable in your own body—of course, I feel great myself. But then, I realize I live in a world in which fatphobia exists. People have feelings about bodies that are the same as mine and it can be really triggering. I think that it really made my body image issues bubble to the surface in a way that I wasn't expecting because I feel so comfortable with myself. Suddenly I'm like, Oh, what if someone thinks this? Or what if they think that? Thank goodness for therapists, right?Ultimately, for me, what it comes down to is: This is the body that I reside in. And I am not interested in someone who has an issue with it. More importantly, I am not interested in someone who is with me because of the way I look. Because as we know, bodies change, and they are always going to be changing. This is the iteration of the body I have today, next year might be different. I don't want to be tied romantically to someone who is with me because of the way I look. Because bodies change. That is one thing that I can guarantee will happen. Remembering that for me, my looks are the least interesting thing about me. That's my personal belief system. The right person will understand and align with my values. And if they don't, then then they're not the right person. I'm not even saying that's an easy practice, because it's not, but it's the reality. When it comes to dating and love and relationships, I am not willing to bend my boundaries on that at all. Because I will just end up miserable and I'm not willing to do that. I'm so at peace with myself, and I'm so at peace with who I am that I would not allow anybody in my life that is not going to allow me to maintain that same level of peace and self love and, like really cherishing the person that I am.VirginiaI love that. To know that that is not a place you're ever going to compromise again feels like such a gift of doing this work.ChrissyYeah. Dating is just hard. VirginiaI mean, I can imagine having that as the bottom line feels like it narrows the pool a little bit. ChrissyIt does.VirginiaBecause a lot of folks, especially when you date straight men, are not going to share that bottom line. And the whole app culture that we're in now is so counter to that.ChrissyOh my gosh, yes. It definitely narrows the pool. But I saw this really great commentary, and it's something I've really embraced in my life. This person explained it’s like having multiple streams of joy, right? Like dating and relationships is one stream, but there are so many streams of joy. I've created and always continue to cultivate a life that feels really full and joyous. And if I meet a person who understands my boundaries, and fits into that and can add more joy, then awesome. But if not, I have so many streams of joy that I feel so nourished by on a day to day basis. I'm just working to create and cultivate more of that in my life.VirginiaOh, my gosh, I could not love that more. Thank you for sharing that. ButterVirginiaWell, speaking of joy, Chrissy, I would love to know what Butter you have for us today!ChrissyOh my gosh. So, speaking of things cultivating joy, I wanted to cultivate more creative joy in my life. So I started taking pottery classes and I'm loving it. VirginiaI’ve seen your TikToks! Yes, tell us about this. It looks so fun.ChrissyIt's so fun, I'm not good yet. I've only been to four classes, but I love it. It's been just so much fun like to work with clay and to have this thing where you're going week after week and just trying to improve your skills a little bit better. It's been so fun. And I ended up taking a class that was for people of color, and it ended up being all women and it's been so fun. It's just been such a fun class. And I'm like super enjoying it. I'm going tonight. So it's something that I want to keep going and speaking of TikTok, I'm now following all these people that are really good. And I'm watching their videos and just imagining how much of a master I'm going to be in the future and it's been so great. I'm loving it so much.VirginiaThat sounds like the greatest use of TikTok I could imagine, to follow potters and watch their talents. That's incredible. And I love the idea of regular class and cultivating that community space. So powerful. That's really really cool. My Butter this week is a little more mundane, but it is giving me a lot of joy. I have just gotten on the Souper Cubes trend.ChrissyOkay, you have to tell me more.VirginiaThese have been very popular on like food Instagram for a while and I was very suspicious of them. They look like giant ice cube trays. Each cube holds two cups of something. So it's like four big cubes. And it's about size of an ice cube tray. And the idea is like when you're making soups, or pasta sauce, which I make a lot, or chicken stock, you can freeze them in these individual cubes. It is reducing this hassle I didn't realize was such a hassle in my life. Because normally especially in the winter, once a week, I make a big batch of pasta sauce and I often make stock. Like if we roasted chicken, I'll make a stock. And I'm always like scrounging around for containers that will survive in the freezer. You know, you're using the old deli containers, but the lids are all snapped. Or I tried to freeze things in ziplock bags, and then the bag burst. It's just a hassle. It's not a trauma. There are worse problems in the world. But it becomes this annoyance and I want my cooking routine to be more pleasure based than that. So I finally was like, you know what, I'm gonna buy some of these and see if there's great as everyone says. And they're better, which is a little annoying, because it’s a very trendy Instagram item that I normally would not want to get behind. But it's great having a dedicated thing for freezing stuff so then you're not using up your good tupperware. You know, it's annoying when your good Tupperware is in freezer for a month. This is something I did not realize how much brain space I had devoted to until I solved this problem. I was like, wow, this was actually really stressing me out. So having the dedicated containers and then when you want to use what's in them, you can just pop them out because the silicone is stretchy. There are two cup blocks of pasta sauce. And you can just defrost it right in a bowl or just defrost it right in the pan and you're good to go. It's very clever. So I feel like it's a very like pro-capitalism recommendation, but sometimes they have some good ideas. And this was one of them.I guess also my recommendation is that the things that cause mild annoyance, but like on a weekly basis, it is actually worth taking a minute to solve for yourself because now that doesn't stress me out anymore. And that's nice.ChrissyI don't cook much, but if I did, you would have sold me because that does sound awesome. It sounds like exactly what you need.VirginiaIt’s a really good problem solver. ChrissyI don't always love an Instagram ad, but sometimes they're right.VirginiaI mean the algorithm is freaky that way.So, Souper Cubes, for anyone who wants to join that Instagram bandwagon with me. Of course, not sponsored! Have spent my own dollars on them. Chrissy, thank you so much for being here. Tell listeners where we can follow you and what can we do to support your work?ChrissyAwesome. Thank you for having me. This was such a great conversation. You can follow me on Instagram, Tiktok, and Twitter. It's all the same: @IamChrissyKing. My website is Chrissyking.com.And of course, you can support me by ordering the book. It is out now and it's available anywhere books are sold.VirginiaAmazing. Congratulations again. And thank you for doing this. Thank you. Awesome.Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast. Once again, if you'd like to support the show, please subscribe for free in your podcast player and tell a friend about this episode.

It's our March Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering anti-diet puberty books, clothing size chart confusion, our style icons, and a mom who thinks her 13-year-old needs to chew her food more. If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. It's just $5 a month or $50 for the year—and you get the first week free!Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books.(Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!) Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSSellTradePlusUnlikely Hikersthe Unlikely Hikers Merrell collabBody Liberation Hiking Clubplus size backpacksCelebrate Your Body (and Its Changes, Too!): The Ultimate Puberty Book for GirlsThe Body Is Not an ApologyA Body Image Workbook for Every Body: A Guide for Deconstructing Diet Culture and Learning How to Respect, Nourish, and Care for Your Whole SelfThe Intuitive Eating Workbook for Teens: A Non-Diet, Body Positive Approach to Building a Healthy Relationship with FoodLove Your Body: Your Body Can Do Amazing Things...No Weigh!: A Teen's Guide to Positive Body Image, Food, and Emotional Wisdom. It’s Perfectly NormalSex is a Funny WordUniversal Standard has some petite pantsBig Bud Press has petitesJeans Science seriesthe complaints of the mid-size queensLydia Okello Matty Matheson Julie from Rudy JudeMarquimodeDacy’s course.Emma StraubAmintou Sow is it the ultra processed foods?Muna and Broad pattern for underwearmistaken for pregnant All That BreathesCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.VirginiaYou’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.CorinneAnd I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.VirginiaIt is time for your March Ask Us Anything episode! I feel like we should call these mailbag episodes? Ask Us Anything is so clunky. We should workshop that. If someone has a better name, let us now. But! It is time for us to answer your questions. We have a very good mix of questions. We’re going to do some parenting questions, some clothing questions, and then the miscellaneous smorgasbord kind of questions.CorinneThe miscellaneous ones are always my favorite.VirginiaAgreed. CorinneAnd this is also a paywalled episode! That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It’s just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Click here to join us!VirginiaCorinne, what is new with you? It’s very windy at your house today, right?CorinneYes. Spring into Mexico means horrible wind. We’re having 75 mile an hour winds. VirginiaThis sounds terrifying. CorinneIf you don’t live somewhere where wind is a thing you don’t realize how bad it is. But it’s so bad. It just makes everyone in a bad mood.VirginiaIs it dangerous? Like, can you drive?CorinneThey do issue like high wind warnings, but I think it’s more for huge trucks.VirginiaStuff blowing around. CorinneYeah, your roof blowing away. My other exciting thing is that this weekend, I went on an Unlikely Hikers hike. VirginiaOh, so fun. And how was it? CorinneIt was fun. It was really cool. VirginiaThat’s awesome. I have been coveting the Unlikely Hikers Merrell collab. CorinneYeah, some people were wearing those and they were very cute.VirginiaMy last Body Liberation Hiking Club hike, there were two if not three people wearing the boots and I was like, “Well, this is now all I can think about.”CorinneNow you need them. They’re very cute.VirginiaAnd I just bought new hiking boots three months ago. So I missed the window. Cor folks who don’t know what Unlikely Hikers is, can you explain what that is and where they are and stuff?CorinneIt’s run by this person named Jenny Bruso. Jenny travels around and does hikes in different areas. They also have worked with the brand Gregory to make plus size backpacks. And yeah, the Merrell boots. There are also starting to be some Unlikely Hikers chapters, so that’s cool. I’m hoping that maybe there will be one in Albuquerque!VirginiaYou can also start a Body Liberation Hiking Club. Because Alexa—Hi, Alexa!—launched that here in the Hudson Valley. And now we have chapters popping up all around, so we’ll link to that Instagram if people want to look for one. And I think they’re very in sync with Unlikely Hikers. I don’t think it’s like a Jets and Sharks rivalry situation or anything. CorinneYeah, I’m sure it’s not.VirginiaWe are all for more people hiking in awesome ways. CorinneWhat’s new with you?VirginiaWhat’s new with me is I have a child home sick. So, there’s nothing new with me. There is always a child home sick this time of year. So we may get some interruptions in this podcast recording, we’ll see. We’ve deployed her third parent the iPad to take care of things.CorinneHonestly, it would make me feel better if a child interrupted rather than my dog.VirginiaYou may just hear some faint coughing. I promise, she sounds like a Victorian waif but she’s totally fine. It’s just a cold. So, we’re going to start with parenting questions! CorinneQ: Anti-diet puberty books! At the recommendation of our doctor and the internet, we purchased the book The Care and Keeping of You Volume One for our eight year old girl. What a load of shit! So much diet talk/am I too big questions? How is this five stars on Amazon? Why are we telling children to talk to their doctors if they need to diet, to track the food they eat? I returned it. No need to have that book at our house when they are already given similar messaging out in the world. What puberty/sex ed for preteen book recommendations do you have?VirginiaSo, this is a spoiler for chapter 12 of my book, which is all about how anti-fat bias manifests in conversations around puberty. So get excited for that! Quick preorder shameless plug, make sure you’ve got Fat Talk coming! (Here’s how to get a signed copy, here’s the UK edition, and here’s the audiobook.)But obviously, Fat Talk is not a book you will hand to your child. I do not explain puberty in any detail, but I talk about the messaging and I have a little bit on The Care and Keeping of You because that book is a wild ride. It has gone through many editions and I will say the newer editions are better. You may have purchased an older edition, but there are definitely still diet culture vibes throughout. The books that you need instead—and I’m pulling from the resource section of Fat Talk, so this will all be listed there, too:Sonya Renee Taylor, of course: Celebrate Your Body (and Its Changes, Too!): The Ultimate Puberty Book for Girls. Now, there is one footnote to this. Sonya Renee Taylor is amazing. We have discussed our love for her. I have no criticisms of her. But the first edition of this book did have some food stuff in the nutrition section that folks objected to. I’ve had my nine year old read the book and I was like, “let me know if you have questions about the food stuff.” It just gets a little good food, bad food, but overall the book is phenomenal. I mean, not surprisingly, it’s very grounded in the The Body Is Not an Apology ethos. So that is a really fantastic one and the one we have in my house. A Body Image Workbook for Every Body: A Guide for Deconstructing Diet Culture and Learning How to Respect, Nourish, and Care for Your Whole Self by Rachel Sellers and Mimi Cole is a nice one (though weirdly only available on Amazon).More specific to foodstuff, which I know you’re asking for like puberty, sex ed, but I think it kind of relates, The Intuitive Eating Workbook for Teens: A Non-Diet, Body Positive Approach to Building a Healthy Relationship with Food by Elyse Resch is very good.For younger 8-9 year olds, Love Your Body: Your Body Can Do Amazing Things... by Jessica Sanders and Carol Rossetti is a big picture book with amazing body diverse illustrations and lots of really great messaging about how your body will be changing and how to celebrate the changes and all of that. That one’s really good. Last one, for more of a take on body image and food issues is No Weigh!: A Teen's Guide to Positive Body Image, Food, and Emotional Wisdom. Did you ever read The Care and Keeping of You? Was that a puberty book you encountered? CorinneNo, I’ve never read it or heard of it. The book that my mom gave me was called It’s Perfectly Normal. Have you seen that? VirginiaOh, yeah. We have that one, too.CorinneI haven’t revisited it but I thought it was pretty good. It’s from the nineties, but…VirginiaIt’s been updated, as well. We have that one. One critique of that one is it’s very gender normative.CorinneThat makes sense. VirginiaI think a lot of puberty books are pretty gender binary.CorinneIt does have a lot of like other diversity, though. I remember there being fat people and people in wheelchairs.VirginiaYes, it is good on that. I mean, in general, I feel like puberty books are often very good on racial diversity, disability diversity, and less good on gender and body size diversity. CorinneThat makes sense. VirginiaThere’s room in this market is what I’m saying.CorinneYeah. I wonder if there are books out there that address the gender stuff, specifically.VirginiaSex is a Funny Word by Corey Silverberg is a really great one for introducing a lot of the sex ed topics. It talks about masturbation in a really positive way and it definitely talks about sex and gender and gender identity. All of that stuff is really well done. What’s tricky about this topic is that people will say puberty books and it’s like, do you just want something to explain how you get your period, or…? It’s a huge topic. So the other thing I would say is don’t expect any one book to answer everything. Expect to have to keep diving into it. But that gives you a few to to get into and yeah, The Care and Keeping of You. I think we can retire that one. That would be my vote.CorinneAlright, I’m going to read the next question. My daughter is 13 and until she was 10, I was fully immersed in diet culture. I’ve since done a 180 and I’m trying so hard to not regulate what my kids eat, and just offer them options and let them choose. I try to have things I know they like available and I try to talk about food neutrally. Often though, it seems like my daughter is eating to the point of a stomachache several times a week, at least. I wonder if part of that is she often takes very big bites and doesn’t chew them much. Is she getting overly hungry? Does she need a reminder to take smaller bites? These are things I want to bring up with her. There could be something else going on, of course, and there’s so many factors that go into a stomachache, but I don’t know how to have a conversation about it or if I even should, without potentially shaming her or questioning her autonomy. I have been sort of hoping it would just work itself out? Like maybe she would start recognizing it and adjust something. But it seems like feeling sick so often isn’t great. How would you approach this?VirginiaOkay, so we both read this question and we have a lot of empathy for both you and your daughter. This sounds like you are doing some really hard work to transition out of old mindsets and patterns. You describe it as “I’ve done a 180,” but I think it takes longer for the whole relationship to make that 180. You might really be like 110 or 150 or something. And that’s totally fine. This is just progress. There are a lot of different moving parts that you’re trying to shift.CorinneYou’re still doing the 180.VirginiaYou are turning and we’re very here for the turning. But yeah, this is a question that kind of left us with a lot of follow-up questions. CorinneYou don’t say how you know that she has a stomach ache, so I’m curious if she’s telling you that or if it’s something else you’re observing.VirginiaWhere I land on this is: I think at 13 you don’t need to be as involved in the minutiae of how your child eats. If we go back to the Division of Responsibility ethos—which in some ways is not helpful at this point because it sounds like it’s probably not what you were doing when she was younger and by 13, she’s almost aged out of the model. But the theory is that parents are in charge of what food gets offered and when it gets offered, and kids are in charge of what and how much they eat. And I would include under that umbrella, what size bites they take.Once you’re out of helping a toddler learn the oral motor skills of chewing, you can maybe offer some gentle reminders about table manners. Like I sometimes say things like, “we actually use a fork to eat that spaghetti, not our hands” or “we don’t put feet on the table,” is the thing I’ve had to say recently. But even that, kids really learn that stuff by us modeling more than they learn it by us slapping their feet off the table. I don’t think you being overly involved in the mechanics of how she’s eating is going to be helpful here. CorinneI was just thinking how I would feel if I knew that my parent was asking someone if I needed to take smaller bites. It feels like a lot of scrutiny. And I wonder if maybe your kid is picking up on that, too? I would be curious what the 13 year old would say, if you ask them about it. Like, “Why do you think your stomach is hurting?” VirginiaThat’s a really good point. Because we want body autonomy here. She understands her body better than you ever could. What does she think is going on? As you say, stomachs can hurt for a million different reasons. This could be anxiety. This could be completely unrelated to what she’s eating. I do think there is strong diet culture messaging that anytime you have a physical symptom, but particularly a GI symptom, to immediately start looking at how and what you’re eating. I’m getting stomach aches, so I have to give up dairy or gluten. And that’s not usually very productive. Often it can make GI symptoms worse.I’m also wondering if what you’re observing in terms of taking very big bites—do you mean she’s eating a lot in one sitting? If that is what we’re talking about, remember you don’t decide what a lot is for her. She decides how much she needs to eat. And usually when people are eating what looks like a lot, it’s because they weren’t eating enough at some other point and there’s underlying restriction. This may be a diet-y thing or not. For a lot of 13 year olds, the schedule is so packed during the day at school they barely eat lunch, they don’t have time for snacks. And then they come home and inhale half your kitchen because they’re starving. Because she is growing. She is at an age where she needs massive amounts of calories to fuel puberty.And I take bigger bites when I’m really hungry, you know? Like, “I gotta get the food in.” And you don’t need to demonize that. You need to look at, is there a way for her to get fed earlier in the day? Or at more regular intervals?CorinneAlso, if for the first 10 years of her life, the message was to eat less, she’s probably still recovering from that.VirginiaI think this may be a sign that the repair work is still ongoing. Parents tell me when they start to shift from a diet culture mindset to a more neutral attitude towards food they see kids eating a lot, a lot, a lot of the foods that were off limits in the past. This makes sense because the kids don’t trust it yet. She may feel like there are certain foods she needs to eat a lot of because she’s not sure how long you’re going to stick with this.I know it has been three years of you doing this work, but we don’t get to pick other people’s timelines on this stuff. That, combined with maybe being more hungry than usual because of a growth spurt or whatever. I think there’s probably a lot going on here. I think it’s probably more useful to ask your daughter what she needs, how can you make food accessible and safe and fun for her? And what other support does she need? What else is she dealing with? God, you couldn’t pay me to be 13 again, so hard. CorinneAgreed. It sounds like this person is really trying to do the right thing and probably just struggling with some internal stuff.VirginiaYeah. And it makes sense. This stuff is very triggering. You also were ingrained in this pattern of “there’s a problem, look to food to control.” And so that takes some time to stop automatically looking to food to control. But my guess is what you’re seeing in her eating may not be why she’s having stomach aches.CorinneYeah. And I think what we’re also saying is, don’t have a conversation about bite size.  Have a conversation! Not about bite size.VirginiaYeah. Let her chew food on her own terms. CorinneAlright. I’m going to read the next one.Our family has always aimed to be pretty neutral about food and not demonizing different food groups. Sugar has never been a forbidden food or one you have to earn. But I recently found out that my eight year old has a secret candy stash saved from birthdays, parties and holidays. Should I be concerned? When I saw it with him, I said, “it is totally fun to have a secret candy stash and you don’t have to hide eating candy from us.” My kid is not strong in expressing internal experience so we don’t usually end up having those kinds of deep conversations everyone likes to post about. AKA I have no sense of what is driving the stash and he’s not able to tell me. Should I worry?VirginiaFirst, I just want to relate because I also have a child who doesn’t love deep conversations. So I know exactly what you’re feeling. People will be like, “I had this amazing breakthrough moment with my child.” And I’m like I could say all that same things, and I would just get not much back. So yep, some kids are not talkers and we will meet them where they are. I love her response. It’s totally fine to have a secret candy sash and you don’t have to hide candy. I love it, I think it’s great.CorinneI know, that is such a nice response.VirginiaI think if your house is as food neutral/food positive as you’re describing, this is probably your eight year old just discovering that he can keep stuff in his room. And that’s cool. I had a flashlight under my bed so I could read under the covers at the same age. And for sure I read The Baby-Sitters Club books at that age where Claudia Kishi had candy in her room and it just seemed cool to do it. Maybe this is candy he doesn’t want to share with a sibling, or it’s really fun to eat a treat in your room sometimes.CorinneEven if the kid isn’t getting the message from you that sugar is bad, they’re probably getting it somewhere else. VirginiaFair point. Fair point. CorinneBut it sounds like you’re handling it really perfectly.VirginiaIt definitely doesn’t sound like anything you have to rush in on. Let it play out. See what happens. If you’re noticing other food hoarding or scarcity mindset signs around food, then it’s worth investigating a little more thoroughly. Whatever is in his secret candy stash, I would also make sure you have that out in the kitchen in a way that he has very free access to. Make sure that it’s not accidentally off limit. And I don’t even mean you consciously did it. But do you tend to keep the candy on a high shelf in your kitchen? Is that just where it fits? And then you’re like, “oh, wait, that might be perceived as restriction to my kid,” you know?CorinneYou could probably also just say, like, “Do you want to eat some candy together?”VirginiaOh, nice. CorinneDo you have a secret candy stash? My mom, I think, had a secret chocolate stash.VirginiaI do personally. I really like Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. We buy them all the time to bake cookies with and the kids will snack on them, but I pretty much always have an extra bag in the top shelf of the fridge where they can’t reach so that I can ensure thatI have the chocolate I need. That’s not a restriction thing. I’ll buy two bags. It’s just it’s a meeting-my-own-needs kind of thing.CorinneBut maybe this kid sees someone in their life having their own private food stash and wants one for themselves.VirginiaI feel like this was also the age where I was obsessed with wanting a mini fridge in my bedroom. CorinneThats so funny, that was totally not on my radar.VirginiaI feel like it was like one of those like TGI Friday sitcoms, like Full House or something. Some cool teenage girl character had a pink fridge in her room and I was like, I want to have a fridge with snacks. It’s like, no you don’t. What are you going to do with that?CorinneMake a mess.VirginiaYou’re just trying to feel independent.CorinneIt seems like the age where you start wanting to like have independent stuff like keeping a secret diary or something.VirginiaIt feels like he’s exploring this idea and just continuing to make sure that these are not foods that he actually can’t access at other times. If you’re concerned about mice or bugs or something, maybe you give him a plastic container that he keeps his secret stash in in his room. That would be my concern.CorinneThat’s a legitimate concern. VirginiaAlright, we’re going to do some clothing questions now.Before transitioning to plus sizes, I mostly shopped in the petite section. Now that I’m in a larger body all the stuff that fits in the bust and waist is so long. I worry about the end of the crop top trend because a 2x cropped sweater is actually the right normal length sweater for me if I cuff up the sleeves, of course. Any suggestions for petite plus folks, either for places that offer petite plus or how to communicate this need to the market? I mean, I feel this. There’s very little petite plus crossover.CorinneI had two thoughts about this. My first one is, sorry, but get a sewing machine or a tailor. It does suck, but also you can shorten stuff somewhat easily. VirginiaThat’s fair. CorinneI’ve seen Tiktok sewing tutorials where you can sew the bottom of a sweatshirt so that like the cuff is still there. Anyways, there’s cool things you can do.VirginiaOkay, but now you have a new hobby.CorinneOr you can have a tailor! You can either have a sewing machine or a tailor, choose one. Sorry, I know that’s an obnoxious answer. The petite plus size stuff that I know about is Universal Standard has some petite pants, at least.1 They have shorter inseam jeans.VirginiaYes and their short inseam is like, quite short. I’m 5’5.” If I get their 27-inch inseam it fits me like a Capri pant.CorinneOh really!?Virginia I’m also proportionately shorter torso/longer legs, so my 5’5” might be different.CorinneI’m the same height but I’m long torso/short leg and the 27 inch is perfect on me. And I think the 27 is the regular length.VirginiaYeah, it is the regular length.CorinneBut they also have petite and tall, I think. I know also Big Bud Press has petites now. I haven’t tried them and I think that their petite is more like a regular, but you could check it out. And the other one that I know about is Talbots! I don’t shop there, but I’ve heard that they have plus size petites.VirginiaAlright, that’s a good one to check out for work basics and what have you. I do hear this frequently from readers. There’s a plus section, a petite section, and a tall section. God forbid you’re tall and plus or petite and plus, they don’t overlap. I think it totally goes back to all of the Fit Model issues that I reported out in the Jeans Science series. This is a failure of retail that they cannot offer as many customized sizing options as we need.CorinneI also think you will find that like certain brands, like Universal Standard, their fit model is just a bit shorter or something. So, shop around.2 VirginiaOkay. This is another sizing issue.Why are XL and 1XL two different sizes? And why are they so inconsistent across brands?And I will footnote that and say: Why are XXL And 1X And 2x three different sizes, and which one is XXL? Is it 1x? Or is it 2x?CorinneWell, the answer is neither. Sorry. VirginiaThat makes no sense. CorinneThe answer is just, no.VirginiaNo clothes for you. That is the answer.CorinneBad.So the answer is, XL is straight size and 1X is plus size and they use different fit patterns.VirginiaDifferent fit models, yes.CorinneAnd it just kind of depends on your body which one works better for you. 1x usually will have like, bigger arms. VirginiaAnd a bigger bust. CorinneYeah. And XXL is going to be more in the straight size model.VirginiaXXL is what J Crew is throwing on as their plus size.CorinneThat’s not plus size, sorry J.Crew.VirginiaI think J.Crew knows it’s not. But then they also have 2x and 3x. They don’t do 1x. They do XXL In place of 1x. CorinneYeah, that’s when it gets confusing because people just do their own thing.VirginiaSome brands’ XXL is more like the 2x.CorinneGood luck. Good luck! Good luck out there. Check the size chart and buy a measuring tape.VirginiaWe’re tough love today. We’re like, “guys, its fucked.” It’s fucked, I don’t know what to tell you.CorinneI mean! It is. I feel like we talk about this all the time. Then some brand starts making stuff and a 5x is a size 18. VirginiaCorrect. Let us be clear that all of these XL, 1XL, XXL questions are the complaints of the mid-size queens. CorinneNo. I mean, it’s really annoying. But I think when we get into the problem where 5x is a size 18 is when brands go from straight size to plus size without realizing it’s different. VirginiaThey’re doing a very bad job. Acknowledging that capitalism and advertising suck—I like this question, starting off strong!I hate that half of the ads I see online are for retailers that don’t carry clothes that fit my body. I spend a decent amount of time just opening the shops for ads I see on Instagram, going to their size chart and checking to see if their bust measurements go up to or higher than my own. And if not, marking the ad irrelevant. I almost wish I could give it my bust measurement and have its fancy algorithm do the filtering. Is there a way to tell these ad services to only show size inclusive retailers?This person is doing a lot of labor for no benefit.CorinneI’m like, “Well, now that you’ve said it, I’m sure it’s coming.” I never freaking open those ads anymore because they never do.VirginiaI mean one tell is: Don’t open an ad that has a skinny person as the model. I mean unless you’re skinny. CorinneBut do you actually ever stop getting them?VirginiaNo, you never stop getting them, but if they’re not promising me plus size and using a fat person to do it, I know where we’re going. I already have my dysfunctional relationships with J.Crew and Madewell and Anthropologie. I have my straight size brands that I still go back to despite the years of torment. I don’t need to add Marine Layer or whatever the fuck Instagram brand.I say this as someone who has just spent a lot of money on Andie Swim and missed the return window, and is real pissed. Real pissed. Anyone who has a super long torso who needs Andie Swim, talk to me.CorinneOh my god, it’s so funny because that you say that because all the Andie Swim stuff is too short for me. I have the longest torso known to mankind. VirginiaWell, it did not work for me. Also, I accidentally ordered the long torso size which is a real choice, as a short torso person.CorinneI’m so jealous of all the short torso people.VirginiaI mean, I don’t know that it’s easier, Corinne. I am out many hundreds of dollars of Andie swimwear.CorinneI know somewhere you can sell it.VirginiaI  was going to say, it’ll  be coming to selltradeplus very soon. CorinneThe ads that always get me are when I see a thin person wearing something like insanely oversized. VirginiaOh, god. And then you’re like…CorinneOh, I wonder…VirginiaWould it fit me? And how would it fit me?CorinneAnd half the time, no. It’s still too small.VirginiaAbsolutely. Yeah, the Instagram ads are terrible. Yeah, capitalism and advertising suck. I think this person answered their own question. We empathize with you.CorinneJust wait, I’m sure there will someday be a box you can click for your chest measurement. VirginiaThat honestly is kind of ingenious, I think.CorinneAdvertise the right size to me. I know. VirginiaFilter my ads by size. I don’t hate it. I don’t hate it at all.CorinneI’d definitely be buying more stuff.VirginiaClearly, I already buy too much so maybe I don’t want it, but…CorinneIt would be taking all the work out of it. VirginiaCould I return less? That would be cool. I would love to return less. Since we started on resale, I’m going to ask the next question, which is:Corinne, any hot tips for getting started in resale?CorinneMy tip for selling stuff on Instagram is take good pictures. I feel like this is the thing that people really struggle with. Because you just want to take a picture of your wrinkled jeans that you just tried on and realized don’t fit anymore. But no one wants you buy those.VirginiaLike I just want to take a picture of this bag full of Andie Swimwear. CorinneAll folded up. VirginiaStuffed into the plastic sleeves. CorinneLike you took them off and they’re just still on the floor. VirginiaI can’t sell them that way? Okay.CorinneTake a good picture. It really helps. Either a flat lay or hanging it up. Natural daylight so you can see the color and if it has any stains or rips or whatever. VirginiaGood tips. CorinneAnd also provide measurements! Because as we just discussed, sizing is a load of shit.VirginiaOkay, the last clothing question is”I love both your personal styles. Would you mind sharing your styles / slash evolution? And do you have style icons?CorinneOne thing that has changed for me in the past couple of years is I no longer like wearing dresses. I don’t know why, but I don’t. VirginiaValid.CorinneAnd I’m always very inspired by clothes that feel functional, like have pockets or protect you from the elements or allow you to move and breathe and have inner organs.VirginiaThose are great qualities in clothes. CorinneI have so many style icons it’s hard to list them all, but I really like Lydia Okello and Matty Matheson. Do you know who that is? He’s a restaurant person. He recently started like a clothing line. He has very cool style, kind of like workwear-y stuff. I haven’t tried his clothes but I’m I’m always meaning to. This is kind of a basic one, but I really like Julie from Rudy Jude. I feel like she always looks cool. VirginiaWell sure, with the fisherman sweaters and the jeans. That is very your aesthetic.CorinneIf anyone finds those jeans in my size, let me know.One person I’ve really been liking recently on Instagram is @Marquimode. They’re a person in a bigger body and they do really cute little dances while they get dressed. Not my style, but just appreciate the whole attitude.VirginiaYou like the vibe.CorinneGeorgia O’Keefe.VirginiaAlso is very on brand for you. I feel like you’re someone with very clear style. I’m interested that you feel like it has changed.CorinneLiterally just yesterday I was like, I need to do Dacy’s course.VirginiaWell, I think we all could benefit from Dacy’s program. But I do feel like you have a very clear aesthetic. CorinneWell, thank you.VirginiaI mostly see your style on Instagram, maybe you’re curating.CorinneYes, it’s not the plain black sweater that I’m wearing right now.VirginiaI’m wearing an oversized grey sweatshirt dress that’s actually just pajamas. So thats my style today. Corinne I feel like you have a very distinctive style, as well.VirginiaThank you, I will credit Dacy for that. Working with her over the last year or so has really helped. She really helped me realize that as a kid and a teenager I really loved bright colors and kind of crazy clothes. Definitely Claudia Kishi vibes. And then once I became an adult, I sort of put it away. And then once I moved into a bigger body, even more put it away for a while. And some of that was even less about the size, although there was also like, “oh, now I have to learn how to shop for this body.” But also, I don’t know, like early motherhood. I just lost some of my mojo for it. I wasn’t going to do like heels and uncomfortable things like I did before kids. But I didn’t know what to replace it with for a long time. So there were a few dark years there of just being like, how do people wear clothes? What do we do? CorinneThat totally makes sense. VirginiaI feel like when I first started working with her, I was like, I have four Gap tee shirts and I wear them every day. CorinneThat’s so sad. VirginiaWe can improve your quality of life. Whatever. They’re still good tee shirts. CorinneNothing wrong with a tee shirt!VirginiaSo my style now is fairly tailored but with bright pops of color. I want to be someone who does the really brightly colored maxi dress and I almost always end up feeling like that’s too big of a moment. I like a smaller moment. I don’t mean that about size, I just mean I don’t want to be head-to-toe crazy colors. I like a balance of the neutrals and the crazy color. Style icons? I would say Emma Straub. She is not afraid of a crazy colorful moment and I love her so much for it. I am a recovering Audrey Hepburn person. My teenage years my aesthetic was definitely Audrey Hepburn. I feel like that fucked me up a lot.CorinneSo funny. I feel like that’s so different from the colorful stuff.VirginiaNot so much “Breakfast at Tiffany’s.” I don’t know if you ever saw “Two for the Road.” “Two for the Road” is this really wonderful Audrey Hepburn Albert Finney movie. They take these road trips across Europe at different points in their marriage. So you see them falling in love, and then you see them hating each other. It’s amazing 60’s fashion the whole time. There’s like a lot of really great big oversized sunglasses and sequined mini dresses and much more color.I still kind of love that fashion. I love an oversized sunglasses moment. But that’s a real narrow ideal to hang your hat on. I had to unpack and separate the style from the body. But yeah, she was a really early formative influence. This is fun. I’m trying to think who else I love lately. My sister-in-law, Sara, who nobody here knows but she has really amazing style, is definitely one of my major influences.CorinneAnother big one for me for a long time, although I feel like I no longer see her but was Amintou Sow from Call Your Girlfriend.VirginiaLet’s do some miscellaneous questions.CorinneWhat do you make of people who think people are fat because of the food we eat, that big food is partnered with big pharma to keep us sick and medicated? I have a hard time processing this argument because I think there is some truth there. But I’m not sure. I also know at this point saying “just eat unprocessed foods” is a diet. But is it worth advocating for a better food system that makes it easier to get whole foods?VirginiaSo, yes. It is worth advocating for a better food system, not because it’s going to make us thin, but because our current food system is a travesty of human rights violations and taking a major toll on the environment. Those are both issues we should care about and work on improving.The giant failing of food activism is that they jumped on o*esity prevention or reduction instead of just being like, how about we care about human rights? CorinneRight. VirginiaHow about we care about the planet? Sure, let’s work on this stuff. Let’s not talk about that it’s making people fat. CorinneThey were like, “How can we get people to care about this? Oh, fat phobia.”VirginiaRight. “Let’s borrow some of that.”I think there likely is some connection between the way, on population levels, body sizes have increased in the last 40 years and the way that food supplies have changed. There probably is some relationship. However, it is not the entire explanation for those changes. Another explanation that we don’t talk about often enough, is that the last 40 years have also been the war on obesity and diet culture on steroids and people trying to lose weight constantly over and over and over. If you’re going to say that it’s what we’re eating, we have to at least give equal weight, if not more weight, to the fact that we also restrict and do crazy things with food. CorinneIt could also be how we’re eating or how we’re not eating.VirginiaExactly. Like, is it the ultra processed foods? Or is it everybody on Noom? Is it Weight Watchers? It’s not just that we have more processed foods, we also have this entire mindset towards food that’s very dysfunctional, thanks to the diet industry and public health initiatives. So whenever people are like, but what’s changed? I’m like, well, the diet industry has changed. It has gotten a lot more powerful. So that’s a big one. And it is just not productive to talk about this on an individual level at all. Because individually, why you eat fast food or ultra processed food is like, it’s your own damn choice, right? We have body autonomy. People can feed themselves how they want to feed themselves. There are all these larger, systemic reasons why people might gravitate more towards ultra processed foods that just making us feel bad about it doesn’t fix. And we know intentional weight loss doesn’t work. So it’s kind of a pointless conversation. Thats my rant. Did I miss anything?CorinneNo, I think that was really good rant. The answer is capitalism.VirginiaThe answer is capitalism. And advertising sucks. And, yeah, care about human rights and environmental issues. These are good things to care about. CorinneWhether people are fat or not. VirginiaAlright, I will read the next one.I am a thin young millennial woman and I teach sewing garment classes for adults. My students are primarily Boomer women of varying sizes. When making garments for themselves, there are usually fatphobic comments made about their bodies. How do I shift away from or actively discouraged body shaming and fat talk while not discounting their lived experiences that I don’t share. It’s also worth noting, I teach in sewing stores owned by Boomer women who share these beliefs, so I can’t exactly put up body positive neutral posters or something, as much as I’d like to. I don’t think these women have ever encountered the anti-fatphobic, body neutral/positive movements. I’d love responses to ‘I can’t make or wear that because x’ or ‘I need to lose weight.’CorinneOkay, I’m excited to talk about this because I feel like I have an answer. I have this answer because last weekend I went on that Unlikely Hikers hike and at the beginning Jenny just set a boundary that was we’re not going to talk negatively about our bodies. VirginiaThat’s so perfect. CorinneI feel like that is the perfect thing for you to do. Just start each class by saying, “here are the ground rules. One of my rules is we don’t talk negatively about our bodies.” I feel like that could really just set the tone and give them your perspective on it. You don’t have to be mean about it, but I think it’s so easy to set a boundary and let people know where you stand.VirginiaI absolutely love that. And I also think that the whole beauty of sewing garments is that you can make things custom to people’s bodies. So maybe rather than attacking their comments head on, just infusing more discussion of that into your class. Like, this is so great that any body can wear this.I remember my sister-in-law, Sara, telling me she had a jumpsuit made for her by a tailor one time. She was like, “I never thought I could wear a jumpsuit and it turns out it absolutely can. I just needed it adjusted to my body type.” And like, how liberating and powerful that was.So I feel like what you’re doing is so great because it’s actually giving these folks the opportunity to realize that they don’t need to be limited by “oh can’t wear X.” This is the this is the answer to petite plus from the earlier question. This is what will save you. And there are so many fat positive sewing communities out there. So if you’re not already following those folks, I bet a bunch of them will chime in in the comments because many listeners that are part of that. You’re really immersing yourself in that world and then you can bring some of that back into your classes with the Boomers.CorinneYeah, I can’t believe I haven’t mentioned this, but a few weeks ago, I sewed myself some underwear using a Muna and Broad pattern, and it’s amazing. I recommend it. Definitely follow them.VirginiaNumber one, we now need a whole other episode to discuss that. CorinneI can’t believe it hasn’t come up. Virginia It’s the next thing you’re writing about for Burnt Toast. We need to know everything. Alright, last question.CorinneI would love to hear your thoughts on being mistaken for pregnant or not pregnant.VirginiaBecause I have been both many, many times.CorinneMistaken for not pregnant? VirginiaWhen I was pregnant, I never looked pregnant enough.CorinneOh, I get it. I get it. Oh, that’s funny. VirginiaI was mistaken for pregnant constantly until I got pregnant and then people are always like, “really, you’re pregnant?” Because I was just fat and I didn’t look really pregnant. But here’s what I will say about mistaken for pregnant: It doesn’t happen to me anymore. Because now I’m just fat. It happens if you’re straight sized and carry your weight in your middle.CorinneOh, that’s so funny because I was like, I think there’s maybe one time when I was on public transportation and someone stood up for me. And I was like, do they think I’m pregnant? But that has never happened to me.VirginiaNo, it happens to apple shaped—I hate that term—but apple shaped, straight size women. Mid-sized queens, not to call this person a mid-size queen. This is the plight of the abnormally large ribcage.CorinneOh my god, so funny.VirginiaLook, and I want to be clear: It stressed me out a lot because it did happen to me quite a lot at a point in my life when I thought I was going to be dealing with infertility. That was not super fun. And it’s just invasive. It’s so invasive when someone comments on your body. And people have very weird and awkward reactions about it. It’s like a whole thing! I can link to things I’ve written about this issue. Anyone that it has happened to, has very strong feelings about it for a variety of reasons. But the bottom line is, you should react in whatever way you want to react. And if it makes the other person uncomfortable, then good. Because they said something invasive about your body. And that’s on them to sort out. So, I would often just say, “No, I’m not pregnant. I’m just fat,” and just leave it at that.CorinneWhat a nightmare.VirginiaBut then they’ll say, “No, you’re not fat!” And I’d be like, Yeah, I am. Its okay. Thats all it is. It’s just one of those super awkward things, but it can be really painful. Like if you’re dealing with infertility or...CorinneYeah, I would definitely not like to be asked that.VirginiaNo, it’s terrible. It’s terrible. And it’s equally terrible to be pregnant and be excited about it and have people say, like, “Oh, you don’t look pregnant,” like you feel really erased. So it’s a miserable one.CorinneJust a reminder, to all the listeners who don’t need to hear this, let’s never do this.VirginiaDon’t talk about people’s bodies. Always a good rule.ButterVirginiaShould we do butter?CorinneYeah. What’s your butter?VirginiaMy butter is I just rewatched “Thelma and Louise.” And it not only holds up, but it is better than I remember it being when I was 10 or whatever I was when I saw it. Have you ever seen it?CorinneYes. Yeah, I have seen it. And it is good.VirginiaGeena Davis and Susan Sarandon. They’re on a weekend away from her abusive husband and then they end up shooting a guy in a parking lot because he tries to rape Geena Davis, and then they go on the lam. There are many car chases and there are many terrible men and there’s Brad Pitt just like, not even trying to act, just like fell onto that movie set. But he’s there, young Brad Pitt.And talk about style icons! There’s some really great road trip style. Like 80s/90s/early 90s hair and jeans and whatnot. And I just cried so many times. It’s this beautiful story that totally centers their friendship and her escaping this terrible marriage and then when they drive off the cliff at the end. They kiss and drive off the cliff at the end it’s like it’s a really good—I was going to say comfort watch and then I was like, it’s pretty violent and does end in a blaze of glory. CorinneNostalgia watch, maybe?VirginiaIt’s a great watch. I watched it while doing a puzzle called Jane Austen’s Book Club and I think I reached peak Virginia that evening. I was the most me I’ve ever been.CorinneI mean, sounds amazing.VirginiaWhat about you?CorinneI want to recommend this documentary called “All That Breathes.” Have you watched it? VirginiaNo. CorinneIt’s a documentary about these brothers who lives in India and are trying to confront the fact that these birds called kites that live in Delhi are like falling out of the sky. So they create a kite rescue hospital. It’s just very beautiful. VirginiaIt sounds really moving. CorinneYeah, it’s cool. Kind of a slow, quiet movie. You probably need to pick the right day to watch it, but it’s good.VirginiaThanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast!CorinneIf you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free to your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon.They also have tops, it turns out!Some other brands that have Plus Petites: Lane Bryant, Catherines, Land’s End.

Today Virginia is chatting with Debra Benfield, RDN. Debra has helped hundreds of women heal their relationship with food eating in their bodies over her 35-year career as a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist specializing in the prevention and treatment of disordered eating, and brings her passion, expertise, and lived experience to the intersection of pro-aging and body liberation work. Deb’s work is rooted in helping clients recognize internalized ageism and end it, dismantle internalized diet culture and fatphobia, nourish their bodies to support vitality and aging and develop a respectful partnership with their bodies. If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes. And don't forget to preorder! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. You can preorder your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. And! You can now preorder the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSFollow Deb @agingbodyliberation (Facebook)Deb's small group coaching that focuses on aging with vitality and body liberationgrappling with feelings about our aging bodiesThe Truth About Grandparentsthat Emma Thompson conversationAshton Applewhite's TED talkAgeism Unmasked: Exploring Age Bias and How to End ItBreaking the Age Code: How Your Beliefs about Aging Determine How Long and Well You Live How Not to Drown in a Glass of WaterCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.Episode 81 TranscriptDebSo, I turned 60 four years ago. And when that happened, I got curious about what the research was saying about aging and how to make choices to support myself. And I was hit very hard with things that I shouldn’t be surprised by, but I was surprised to see, like how loud and obnoxious the diet and wellness industry messages were in that entire pro-aging culture, not to mention the thin bodies. Since all that happened and my frustration with it, I’ve headed in a direction to provide and create something that I was looking for myself.VirginiaYou reached out to me about having this conversation after I’d written a little bit about grappling with feelings about our aging bodies. As I said in that piece, I’ll be 42 this year. So I’m fairly new to thinking about ageism in anything other than the abstract, but it is clearly time I start learning about it. So I’m eager to be doing this work. and I’m eager to talk with you about how it intersects with anti-fat bias. I think we should start with the ageism piece. What is ageism? How does it show up in the world? DebAgeism is having a preconceived notion or storyline or a prejudiced view of another person or your own self based on age or perception of age. The way it shows up in the world is complicated in that we have so many myths about aging. I have two grandchildren, one and three, that I read stories to and—you probably hear this all the time—you just want to edit, edit, edit. The stories about the old characters are just all atrocious. The parallels with the anti-fat bias are compelling and we can talk about that, but the myths about old people being unhappy and grumpy and rigid and having a closed mindset and not being interested in new things, or sex, or pleasure and being depressed and certainly being less capable and having a poor memory.VirginiaOn the many list of possible stereotypes, I think you’ve named the greatest hits.DebWhen it comes to how we see our bodies, I think we’ve all internalized that without question and hold anxiety for what our bodies and our experiences will be like as we age. I have many people that as I start to talk to them say, “Well, I’ve been thinking about this since I was 25,” or “I started thinking about Botox when I was in my 20s,” and “It’s happening earlier than I expected.” I think that’s more true now. I have a very wise, dear friend who is now talking to her teenagers about how they see aging, because it’s going to happen to everybody if we’re lucky.VirginiaExactly. It is the goal, to get to age. But I think you’re right. We render people invisible as they get older, especially women and other marginalized folks. And we know that in workplaces, ageism becomes a factor at age 35, for women, that’s when it starts. The pressure to start fighting your aging is happening well before you’re actually aging. DebIt feels really messed up. VirginiaSince you mentioned reading books to your grandchildren? Do you have the book The Truth About Grandparents? Is that in your collection?DebNo! I need to get that one. VirginiaIt’s by Elina Ellis and it is just a marvelous book. It’s like, “the truth about grandparents is they don’t like to have fun,” and the illustrations are the grandparents being silly and adventurous. “They don’t like to dance,” and they’re dancing, and they don’t care about romance and they’re kissing. It’s just a beautiful, positive depiction of how wonderful grandparents are. What I really love is the grandmother is fat. She’s just fat and doing yoga and doing all these great things.DebThank you for telling me about that. VirginiaNow let’s get into how you see ageism paralleling anti-fat bias. And if you think there are differences.DebOne of the things that I think is just—I grab my head every time it happens—is when I hear anti-aging activists talk about the phenomenon of ageism. Almost every single one says “this is the last unchallenged prejudice.” And that is because they aren’t as aware about the reality that anti-fat bias is also, and maybe more so. VirginiaI do think we in general need to get away from this whole “last bias” because I mean, there’s also ableism. There’s a little bit of hubris in the idea that you’ve identified the one last bias. DebAnd ableism is so mixed into this, too. Thank you so much for saying that because it’s definitely in there.The other thing I think is true is that we have medicalized both and created huge industry about addressing those naturally occurring phenomena. Biodiversity and aging are both normal and natural and they have become the object of industry, including medicine and pharmaceuticals. The more I read about anti-aging to familiarize myself with the bullshit, the more I see it’s just all the same mess that I’m accustomed to seeing with the anti-fat bias. There is an American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine.VirginiaWow. And how are they preventing aging? DebWell, they’re doing all the research. They’re doing all the research on dieting and also pharmaceuticals. And lots of stuff about our brains. VirginiaI just love that no one at that association has thought about the impossibility of that name for the group. Like anti-aging medicine. We literally can’t stop dying. DebYeah, well maybe you need to check them out because they are there to sell you on the fact that perhaps they can.VirginiaIt’s real. DebI’m also curious about the spectrum. We talk a lot about the spectrum of fatness and it’s the same when you talk to people about age. They have young-old, middle-old, and old. I’m not kidding! The same thing. I mean, I’m actually young-old, as a 64 year old. They start talking about being elderly when you’re 55.VirginiaElderly, but still young old.DebSenior—I mean, all the words. VirginiaWell, and again, it’s going to vary so much on your context, right? Like, what is elderly in Hollywood vs what is elderly in Michigan?Deb Yeah, or with pregnancy.VirginiaAnd what’s elderly for women is different than for men.DebSo true. And people have such strong reactions. I am not a fan of the word senior. But I am cool with elderhood. I’m way cool with being an elder. I’m cool with being old. I’m cool with that.VirginiaWhat is it about senior you don’t like?DebIt feels condescending. It feels like it just doesn’t apply. I mean, it’s nice if I’m getting a discount at the movie theater. Senior discount.VirginiaYeah. Take that discount. I agree, “elder” sounds wise. DebBut elderly…VirginiaThat’s more frail, fragile. There are different implications. That’s so interesting. I haven’t thought a lot about these words. DebAnd they’re probably different for different people.VirginiaI really bristle when you see a waiter in a restaurant talk to an older person and say, “Come along, young lady.” That is so condescending to me. DebElder speak.VirginiaIt’s a way of talking to elders and infantilizing them, right? DebI’ve had the experience already and it is not pleasant.VirginiaWhat did you say? Is there anything to say in the moment?DebI was shocked, since I’m a young old. No, it was like, damn, this just happened. She just called me sweetie. I mean, I knew what she was doing. And when I’ve told the story to my friends, they are like, “Oh, she was just being nice.”VirginiaLike gaslighting. “She didn’t mean anything by it.”Deb And when it comes to your experience in medicine, that’s another parallel. You are not considered a whole person after a certain age. There are many, many stories of not being looked at, not being spoken to, somebody looking at the other person with you. Or looking at your age first, and assuming that your age that is the issue. Like Ashton Applewhite, I don’t know if you’re familiar with her work, highly recommend her TED talk, she’s amazing. She talks about going into the doctor with a 64 year old body saying like, my knee hurts. And immediately the doctor talks about her age and she’s like, “but the other knee is the same age.”VirginiaI have two 64 year old knees. DebWhy is one fine?VirginiaI remember a conversation with my step-grandmother when she was probably 82 or 83, somewhere around there. For some reason, we were having like a family-wide discussion about how we felt about our ages, and we asked her, how do you feel about it? And she said, “It seems to be my primary characteristic now. It’s what I’m constantly reduced to.” And that was a real moment for me. It made me realize how much I was reducing her to her age. I thought of her as this frail old lady that we had to help in and out of the house, and take care of, because she was having mobility challenges. That was a moment for me to reckon with like, right, everyone in this room has reduced to your age in a way that’s really problematic.DebSo much loss. VirginiaI don’t know, I hope we did better after that, but we probably didn’t do enough.DebThe hope is that this movement that is starting to happen and is going to shift and change things for people, especially women as they approach this 50+ menopausal, postmenopausal reality. That’s my hope is that this conversation is going to get loud.VirginiaAs you’re talking to folks about their own experiences of aging and trying to shift to a pro-aging movement and a pro-aging conversation, how do you think about individual choices about things like Botox? Because I want to hold space for the fact that there are workplaces or contexts where a lot of this feels necessary as a survival strategy. And yet, we need to examine these choices and how we’re being complicit in perpetuating the bias. DebI think as a feminist, this has been an entire lifetime of curiosity about what I feel about augmentations and procedures and cosmetics and so many things. I try just to let women do what they need to do. I don’t know what else to do other than let women have their autonomy and make their choices. VirginiaIf we believe in body liberation, we have to believe in body liberation. DebIt’s not my first thought. I have to get to that, sometimes. I have to talk myself into that place.VirginiaYes, that makes sense.DebI can make some judgments real quick.VirginiaYes. I’m good at that, but I would like to be less good at it.DebYou do you. I understand it just like I understand people who want to be thin. This world makes it very hard to have a body—an aging body, a larger body. But my go-to is Sonya Renee Taylor’s work, that’s where I go. And understanding that the default body is real. It doesn’t feel safe or like you have any power or like you belong if you are in any way other than the default. To try to remember that and have compassion for people still wanting to pass as thin, pass as young, pass as whatever they need to pass to feel safer and like they have some power in their lives.VirginiaIt seems like there is still value in naming it for ourselves. Naming that I’m dying my gray hair because of X, Y, and Z reasons, even if you’re not making a different choice, even if it doesn’t feel safe to make a different choice, even if this is the choice you just really want to make. Like understanding the larger context feels really important. DebWomen who are talking about the going gray phenomenon, since COVID kind of accelerated that for a lot of people, talk a lot about how differently they’re treated. Same as when people lose weight, how differently they’re treated. It feels good to feel like you belong, it feels good to feel like you are relevant. And it can be frightening to feel like you’re no longer as relevant. So, it’s quite the process. And now we’re talking about why aging actually makes you more vulnerable to diet and wellness culture.VirginiaSay more about that.DebBecause of the fear of irrelevance, because of the fear of being frail, alone. For all of those stories that we carry about aging, all of the fear and anxiety that we carry about aging, it makes us feel somewhat protected from those things coming true if we hold onto thinness. Because every—and I mean every, please show me where I’m wrong—EVERY pro-aging account that I’ve been able to find holds up a thin, white, silver haired woman. Sometimes they’re brown or Black. Sometimes there is more diversity, but they’re thin. Really thin. And there’s something about bringing with that, that you’re still hip, you’re still relevant, you’re still vital, you’re still capable, that you’re at least thin. So there’s some interesting vulnerability that I think women as they age have, for falling into the trap.I talk to women all day and what they tell me is, I was doing well in my recovery or my intuitive eating. I was doing really well until the doctor said something or this health scare happened—breast cancer, something happened. And they start to associate losing weight, and sometimes they’re told losing weight will protect them from a recurrence or from an accelerated disease process. So there’s kind of a double whammy happening.VirginiaYeah, I’ve definitely heard from older women who’ve said something like, “Well, that’s fine when you’re under 50. But once you get over 50, the health issues mean that you have to eat this way. You have to follow these rules about eating.” They don’t feel included in conversations around intuitive eating or not dieting, because they believe that the health risks are more present for them.1 I think a lot of that has to do with the narrative they’re getting from doctors and health care providers about what aging means and and how weight needs to play into it.I’m also thinking about how when you’re talking about the pro-aging accounts featuring thin women, and I think fat folks experience ageism probably sooner in some ways. This sounds similar to the narrative I hear around moms feeling like they have to ‘get their body back’ because they can’t look like a fat mom. It’s like, you’ve given up some relevancy by becoming a mom, right? Even though you’ve obviously had sex to become a mom, you are somehow now not a sexual being, not desirable because you’re a mother. So you have to hold onto thinness because becoming a fat mom is like, sad. The mom bod thing is such a sad failure. The way we talk about mom jeans or mom hair, all of this is very ageist as well as very fatphobic at the same time.DebI haven’t thought about what happens when a woman becomes mom because it’s so true that there’s so much pressure. And that’s what I mean, same for as you age, there’s so much pressure to hold onto this identity, to be relevant and worthy based on thinness. VirginiaAnd sexually appealing. What you’re saying is that it is not impossible to age or be fat or be a mother and be worthy and sexually appealing and valuable. You’re saying these things are not mutually exclusive.DebNot at all. VirginiaOf course they aren’t. DebAnd I also just want to say, because I know there are there are folks that are not in the US, what I see in other countries is that there are. There’s much more biodiversity around the pro-aging conversation outside of this country. So I have seen it. I just haven’t seen it in the USA. And I don’t know what that’s about. What is that?VirginiaThe power of the dermatology lobby here? DebAnd Hollywood? VirginiaI mean, we’re in it deep. We’re in it deep for sure. DebWe’ve got things to learn. We’re adolescent in our learning.VirginiaAnother thing that you’ve hit on a little bit already is the reality that there is a lot of unchecked ageism in the fat activism community, and, as you mentioned, a lot of unchecked anti-fatness in the pro-aging community. What do you think this disconnect is about? DebI think that I have spoken to folks in the anti-fat bias community and have been well received. I have not been well received when I speak up the pro aging community.VirginiaOh, interesting. DebAnd I’m trying to figure out what that is there. I just think we have so much work to do around anti-fat bias. That’s my hunch: That anti-fat bias is just so deeply held and pushes up against the health conversation, the fear around the risk that I think is also so deeply biased. And people are seemingly not interested in looking at that more deeply. Whereas I think in the anti-fat bias community, I think they’re like, “Oh, yeah, thanks for letting me know.”VirginiaI’m glad to hear that’s been your experience. When we look at the way the body positivity conversation has centered young, thinner, white women, I do think there’s a celebration of youth that can be problematic in these spaces. Probably the number one question I get from readers is “How do I talk to my mother?” and the reader is a millennial and the mother is a Boomer. How do I get her to stop being so harmful about these issues?”So this is something I spend a lot of time thinking about: How do we have these intergenerational conversations and hold space for the harm that the Boomer mother has experienced, because that’s so many decades of anti-fat bias. But there also often is, coming from the millennials, a dismissiveness of that. And it’s coming from the fact that you’ve experienced harm from this person and the relationship is complicated. But it is also important to not just write off this generation, and think, “Well, they’re Boomers, they can’t get it,” you know? That “okay, Boomer” attitude is ageism and is really harmful. DebI have both experiences. I have mothers saying that they really want to help their daughters who are caught up in their own diet culture, their own way of feeding their grandchildren that they find problematic. I think it’s maybe less common, but I hear both mothers and daughters saying can I refer my my mom or my daughter? VirginiaSo that shows us —Not all Boomers, guys!DebWell, I’m a Boomer.VirginiaRight, right. DebI think a thread that we’ve started in these conversations is that this multigenerational conversation that needs to happen. And the frustration for me is that I got books to send. I got so many books to send, when it’s like, let me help you educate your daughter—like your upcoming book is on the list! But the other way, not so much. There’s this big need for this conversation. I do think grandparents feed a lot of kids, sometimes raise kids, sometimes do after school, kids on the weekends, and also make lots of comments around bodies. So it’s a very important conversation and the dismissiveness is not helping.VirginiaNo, it’s not fostering a dialogue. Deb It’s protective of the kid to include mom and grandparents and everybody at the table, literally. VirginiaI do think we should name the problem of white feminism showing up in these spaces. DebFor me, personally, as a kiddo that identified as a feminist like way back in the late 60s, early 70s, I was all in. And I noticed the white thinness. And I really noticed it, of course, the more I started doing this work. I felt like the body was being left out. I just felt like the body was being left out the conversation. So I think that’s carried through. Maybe the body is going to be included in the conversation now. I don’t know, in a different way with Roe v. Wade and body autonomy meaning so much right now, the body in general is a bigger part of the conversation again.VirginiaYeah, thanks for that, guys. DebCan’t believe it, but here we are. And that’s what I noticed is that it feels like it just got totally left out. VirginiaIn the charge for equal pay and women being able to build careers. That’s the version of white feminism we’re talking about—the lean in model, the girl boss model.DebWhich stayed really thin. And so power equals thinness. My clients talk a lot about feeling vulnerable when they feel soft. There’s a lot of vulnerability with feminine identity, with curves with flesh. That’s vulnerable, uncomfortable in the patriarchal world we live in.That’s what you get when you age. You get soft. You get soft and the push is to get in the grind and do your strength training and drop your carbs and get rid of the belly fat. That’s the conversation which is very much like post-mom, there’s a lot of parallel there.Virginia Absolutely. DebSo there’s a vulnerability that I think we need to keep talking about. I don’t know if it’s real or if it’s perceived, because of buying patriarchal stories.VirginiaIt feels very tied to what we were talking to before about relevancy and erasure and wanting to fight that.DebVery much.VirginiaAnd this is also just making me think about how much the conversation around menopause is not happening in the way it needs to. That’s another version of erasing older women’s experiences.DebYeah the a menopause conversation is really so simplified to what I just said: Do your strength training and really don’t eat carbs. It feels like it’s just those two issues over and over and over again. And that I challenge on the regular. It’s not nuanced. I personally am way postmenopausal, and I feel like it’s a powerful, exciting time of life.VirginiaThat’s awesome. DebA lot has dropped away that I feel like it was bubblegum on my shoe. Now there’s much more potential for me to have energy for other things. And I don’t hear people talking about that! It’s so fear-based. VirginiaWe’re not hearing about that. How do you feel like you have more energy? What’s changed? DebI think estrogen biologically orients us toward our family and caring for others. And the drop of that allows for you to shift your attention toward yourself in a way that our culture doesn’t necessarily feel comfortable with.I mean, you have to be willing to do that. It’s not going to fall in your lap. Because the culture is still going the other way. But I think it has huge potential for shifting your energy toward an exciting time. And, you know, Emma Thompson, I’m sure you saw that Emma Thompson conversation, which I adored, mostly.VirginiaSame.DebWhat if we stop wasting our time with that? I mean, it’s such a time suck, energy suck, life suck. We know that.VirginiaHere’s this opportunity, this stage of life, that can be something really exciting and different and new. And instead you’re buying into this narrative that’s like, how can you be exactly what you’ve always been? And how can you still be as small as possible? DebHow can you shrink and diminish your voice? How can you stay in line? And where I see people saying that, which is so frustrating to me, is the pro-aging folks. They’re all about like, “Women still want to feel sexy. Women still want to look a certain way.” So there’s still this emphasis on thinness.VirginiaThat’s not rejecting the premise. That’s not saying you can still be a sexual person who’s not thin. That’s just trying to hold on to this thing. That doesn’t feel pro-aging to me.DebRight but that’s what its called, if you look at the hashtag. VirginiaI’m just so grateful that you are pushing us and pushing this conversation because it just feels very maddening that you’re finding someone having the conversation and then realizing they’re having the same old conversation.DebAnd they’re not willing to engage. Very defensive. That’s where the white feminism parallel is—that fragility and defensiveness. Absolutely. “But I was just trying to do a good thing here.”VirginiaWell, to that, then, what can we be working for? What new conversations can we be pushing? How do we start to do this advocacy for a true pro-aging movement?DebThe potential for not buying into the loss of menopause. I mean, I don’t want to not acknowledge the loss. But there’s so much more. It feels like we’ve really focused in because there’s a lot to sell there. There are a lot of products and programs to sell, like same with addressing your hormone balance. Women are so many things and there’s potential for staying with your growth and your excitement and your dreams as a woman who is aging. I feel like that’s one of the most important things. That can look so many ways in so many kinds of bodies. Can we just please look at some diversity? That’s my number one issue. I want some diversity. Bring me some diversity in the bodies, all the things.VirginiaYeah, and as you’re saying that I’m realizing we’re talking a lot about menopause and we’re talking a lot about women and we need gender diversity here, too, right? We need examples of elder trans folks and elder non-binary folks. How are we seeing those body stories centered and celebrated here? That’s another piece. DebYes, that certainly needs to happen, too. VirginiaIt’s definitely an opportunity to do some reflection on where your aging biases show up and how it’s manifesting. And what comments and terms do we need to start challenging? I think that’s all really important work. I really appreciate you helping us start this conversation in Burnt Toast.DebCan I recommend a couple of books if people want to do that work?VirginiaPlease, yes! DebI’ve already mentioned Ashton Applewhite and her TED talk is a great starting place. Tracey Gendron has written a book called Ageism Unmasked: Exploring Age Bias and How to End It which has zero fatphobia. Because I’m reading all of these with that lens intact—and I’ve thrown away a lot of books!VirginiaThis is a curated list.DebAnd Breaking the Age Code: How Your Beliefs about Aging Determine How Long and Well You Live by Becca Levy. I don’t know if you’ve heard about her research, but she actually showed that your attitude around aging can alter your lifespan by seven and a half years. Her book and her research is mind blowingly important. It’s a bigger undertaking. So both of those books to me would be great places for people to go.ButterVirginiaWell in since we’ve gotten into recommendations, we can do butter which is our recommendation segment. Do you have any other recommendation you?DebI’m going to have a hard time limiting it! “Sort Of” on HBO is just—I love it so much. So tender, such a tender story line. I adored it. And Angie Cruz, How Not to Drown in a Glass of Water.VirginiaOh, I have that in my to-read pile! I’m dying to get to it.DebI can’t stop. That’s how you know something’s so good. I feel like I am changed on a cellular level and I can’t get it out of my mind. Her voice is in my mind. Love, love that book. VirginiaWell, those are excellent recommendations.Related to books, my butter this week is in-person book clubs. If you’re in a place with your COVID caution that this is doable for you. I know it’s not for everyone. Zoom book clubs are also great, but I’m in two local book clubs at the moment and we had a meeting of one last week and I have a meeting of one tonight. And I’ve just been thinking about like how much this is something I’ve missed in the past few years is being able to have in depth conversations with folks about books that I love.The book club last week we read Kiese Laymon’s Heavy. I actually listened to the audiobook this time, which, talk about being changed on a cellular level. Listening to Kiese read that book is just—there’s an extra recommendation for you. If you haven’t done it, it’s a work of art. And the conversation my book club had was just so fulfilling and special.It’s a great way to connect with friends, to connect with new people. I’m just really feeling book clubs and the power of them right now. And I’m saying this not just because I’m an author with a book coming out that would be a great book club pick!I have another one that’s some local women, other mom friends—that’s the one I’m going to tonight. I’ve been excited all day because like we all get to leave our kids at home and come together and do this thing that we really love. It’s been really special. So, if you’re not in a book club, but you are a reader—I was sort of resistant to them for a while for reasons I can’t even remember because it’s just a wonderful opportunity for community DebCan I mention a book club story. I don’t know if you remember this, but when you wrote your first book, do you remember that you came to our book club virtually?VirginiaYes. That was like, pre-Zoom? I don’t know how we even did it?DebI don’t know, but you showed up. VirginiaThat was wonderful.DebI have a client who still says—we’re working on her eating—that when she’s having difficulty accessing hunger sensation, “I feel like Virginia’s baby.”VirginiaOh my gosh.DebI just wanted you to know that.VirginiaOh, wow. So Deb ran the Body Liberation Book Club. It was a great name for a book club and it was so much fun to come into. That was really cool. It’s just a great opportunity to connect with people. So, Deb, thank you so, so much! This has been a wonderful conversation. Please also tell listeners where they can follow you, what other stuff you have coming up that we should know about.DebOkay, my website is debrabenfield.com. Very straightforward and my socials are @agingbodyliberation (Facebook). I have a group coming up that I’ll do several times, but the next group is going to be the first week in April. That is small group coaching that focuses on aging with vitality and body liberation. We pull together how to navigate everything that we’ve been talking about today, how to dismantle your internalized ageism and diet culture myths and find your way toward your own healing process with practices to support them. And I’m in love with it.VirginiaAmazing. Thank you so much for being here! ---The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon. Just want to clarify that I understand health risks often are more present as we age, and don’t mean to downplay that. But intentional weight loss comes with a cost, isn’t sustainable, and rarely results in better health outcomes, at any age. 

It's our February Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering body autonomy for kids, 90s makeup icons, body feelings, and the dreaded business casual. If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid. It's just $5 a month or $50 for the year—and you get the first week free!Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books.Disclaimer: Virginia is a journalist and human with a lot of informed opinions. Virginia is not a nutritionist, therapist, doctor, or any kind of health care provider. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions she gives are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.BUTTER & OTHER LINKSClaire Lernerhow much we love breakfastUniversal Standard Ponte Pant11 HonoreElizabeth SuzannNooworksDraper James dressesStitch FixThe KitMindful ClosetYou Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful GirlfriendComfort Foodan awesome cookbookGlennon Doyle Indigo Girls episodeSonya Renee Taylor episodeBogs snow bootsCREDITSThe Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.Episode 82 TranscriptVirginiaLast month, people were like, “tell us your favorite breakfast!” This month, people are like, “can we dive down deep in this rabbit hole?” We’ve got some very rich conversations to get into today. Do you want to read the first one? CorinneI do. Okay:My 4-year-old stepdaughter goes to a wonderful preschool that teaches her phrases like “I get to do what feels good in my body,” presumably in contexts like deciding how much to eat and which physical activities to participate in. However, at home, she deploys these phrases in basically every situation where we tell her no. “No you can’t put muffins in the hot oven,” is met with “it’s my body, I can choose.” When, “I know you want to wear your red dress, but it’s in the wash” set her off on a “but I get to do what feels good in my body” tirade, I tried explaining that getting to decide what feels good in one’s body is only for certain situations. But I totally failed at clarifying this to her satisfaction. Any advice?Signed, Associate Justice of the Preschool Supreme Court. VirginiaI love this kid so much. I’m also raising two of these kids. I just feel you because I have had this thrown back at me over toothbrushing. And oh my god, hair brushing! Don’t get me started on the nightmare that is hair brushing in my house.So I don’t know that I have really good advice because I feel like this is maybe just part of raising someone with body autonomy. Four is an age where they are going to push back. They’re going to start making these arguments. You kind of have to just roll with it, because it’s all part of them getting this autonomy.Obviously, I get that you didn’t want her to put the muffins in the hot oven and that you cannot take a wet dress out of a washing machine to be worn. These lines also get used over things like car seats or shots, where we have to do this for health and safety.But often, when my kids throw this at me, I try to take a moment and think, “How can I give them a little more control over the situation?” Sometimes I am trying too hard to control something. Is it the end of the world if they go to school with tangled hair? Probably not.It comes up a lot with seasonally appropriate dressing. This morning, I suggested that 27 degrees was a morning to wear a hat and mittens and maybe even legwarmers over your leggings to the bus stop. And one of my children felt strongly it was not that weather. But then we got out to the bus stop, she was very cold and very unhappy about it. While it was, of course, not the most fun little journey we went on, I was like well, body autonomy means you get to decide if you’re cold but it also means you can learn from the experience of being cold at the bus stop. Sometimes just giving up and letting them get it wrong can be really helpful. Because maybe they will make a different choice or maybe they will just be cold a lot of the time but that’s okay.What are your thoughts about this?CorinneIt just comes down to how much you want to argue, I guess? VirginiaWell, and there’s no winning an argument with a preschooler. CorinneOr how much time or energy you have to put into having a discussion about it. VirginiaI do think with something like the hot oven, or shots at the doctor, seatbelts—you can have a conversation where you say, “When your health and safety is at stake, grownups who love you make decisions about your body. You are in control of your body, but you’re also a kid and we take care of you. If you’re going to do something that’s dangerous, we have to stop you. But we will always look for as many opportunities for you to have control in that situation.”With the muffins in the hot oven, could she—even if you’re the one putting the tray in the oven—could she open and close the door for you? Can she preheat the oven and turn the light on and watch the timer and have some other ownership about the experience? With shots at the doctor’s office, they can pick which arm it goes in. They can pick if they want to sit on your lap or not. Claire Lerner, who is a child psychologist I really love, always talks about how you give them two great choices. So you have to do X, but under the umbrella of This Is Happening, you can choose a couple of things.” And I think that can can definitely help.Otherwise, just be really proud! You’re doing a great job and your kid is going to be awesome at life. This is the price we pay for encouraging them to be in charge of their own bodies. CorinneIt does seem like the benefit of teaching them about that probably outweighs the really annoying moments. Hopefully, in the long run. VirginiaI would love teeth brushing and hairbrushing to be less sources of strife in my life.I can read the next one:I noticed that when I see myself in a mirror outside my own home, in a public restroom or whatever, I look way fatter than I did at home—sometimes only 20 minutes earlier. Does this ever happen to you? And what do you think is going on? It can feel so upsetting to leave home feeling pretty okay with myself only to be floored by disappointment.CorinneI feel like sometimes at home, you’re more comfortable, and you have your mirror setup and you’re used to how you look. And then sometimes, if you’re out in public and you see your reflection, it’s like a weird angle that you don’t usually see or like, the wind is blowing.VirginiaYeah, you’re used to how you look in mirrors at home and mirrors out in the world—CorinneIt’s like a candid photo or something. You can’t control your angles. I can’t say this happens to me, but I can understand why it would be disturbing.VirginiaIt used to happen to me when I was in a more fraught relationship with my body, so I can relate to it. I can remember being in my 20s, living in New York, feeling good about my little outfit to go to my magazine job in the apartment, and then passing my reflection in the Starbucks window and being like, oh my god, this is not what I thought I was walking out of the house like.It’s something to take seriously because it does indicate that you are body checking more than is probably good for you or at least in a way that sounds distressing. So it’s definitely something, if you’re working with a therapist or you have people in your life who you know are good for talking through these kinds of things, definitely get support. It’s something to examine, I think.CorinneWould it be more helpful to try to avoid mirrors, avoid reflections, or to try to just accept that no matter how your reflection looks, you’re still yourself and who cares?VirginiaWell, you may have to do some avoiding while you work on getting to the accepting, right? It’s probably not an either or. When we all first were getting used to Zoom—and sometimes still—hiding your Zoom face felt important because staring at your zoom face all day long was just a whole new level of scrutiny. We did not evolve as humans to see our own faces. CorinneRight. And it’s hard to look away sometimes. I always just turn off my face on Zoom, because otherwise I will just stare at it. VirginiaYeah, I’m staring at myself right now because I haven’t done that. I mean, I’m looking at you, too. I go back and forth constantly. So I definitely think there’s some merit to minimizing opportunities for this.Maybe it’s also just taking a moment to notice that you’re doing that and that you don’t have to stay in that place. You don’t have to judge yourself for having that reaction. You can just be like, Oh, there I go again. When I see myself in a new mirror, I feel weird. Here we are. Then it’s a little more detached. It’s a little more like, fair enough. That’s how I respond, but I don’t have to let this define my day or whatever.CorinneAnd I think we’ve talked about this before, but it could be another moment of like, “Well, I have a lot of other great qualities. Might be looking fat and weird, but I’m still cool.”VirginiaRight. Looking the way you looked in your home mirror is not a requirement for the rest of your day. You don’t have to maintain that specific slice of how you look 24 hours a day. That’s not realistic. CorinneAnd you have other great qualities that aren’t reflected in the mirror. What are some easy coping mechanisms/self care? I have two littles and finding myself only able to use food to soothe when I’m feeling big feelings. I recovered from an eating disorder 10 years ago, but this pattern has come back in the afternoons when we’re all having a snack and I’m hungry and also just done being on for the day.VirginiaSo I want to just throw in the disclaimer that we are not eating disorder professionals. If you are concerned that this is feeling very reminiscent of eating disorder behaviors, definitely talk to a professional who can help you work that out.But what I will say is, I don’t think that using food to soothe at the end of a hard day with small children is at all a thing to feel bad about. It sounds like a pretty reasonable response to long days. CorinneAnd you also said you’re hungry. VirginiaRight, feeding yourself because you’re hungry and also tired and cranky. All good. CorinneI read this and I was like, “I think you need to be having a snack sooner!” It sounds like you’re getting to like a bad point. VirginiaRight. And did you eat lunch? Did you hear Corinne and me last month, talking about how much we love breakfast?CorinneAre you eating a huge breakfast?VirginiaWhich you don’t have to, if that’s not your thing. But I hear this from so many moms in particular, that it’s easy to not feed yourself enough during the day when you’re taking care of kids because you’re so busy with all of their demands.Dan is the worst at this! Dan’s breakfast every morning is whatever the kids have leftover. He’s eating scraps of Eggo waffles and then it’s like, why is he grumpy?CorinneDan! You deserve better.VirginiaAbsolutely. If your lunch was the crusts of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, I am not surprised that at four o’clock you are starving and eating a lot of food. CorinneIt could also be the sort of like binge/restrict thing. Maybe if you’re feeling a little out of control, it’s because you’re like past the point of needing to eat, right? Like you waited too long and now it’s a desperate situation. VirginiaYou’re also soothing big feelings. And again, I just want to say, that’s valid. Food is a helpful tool for soothing big feelings. We can’t sit in big feelings all the time. Sometimes we need a little break and for something to feel good while we’re also feeling sad and annoyed with our children.If you feel like this is absolutely your only strategy for dealing with big feelings, that’s where like, you deserve more tools. This doesn’t have to be your only tool. You deserve support, you deserve conversations with people who love you who can hear how you’re feeling, you deserve a therapist. You deserve just other options. You deserve someone to take care of your kids so that you can get a break—whether that’s a partner or childcare or something.So I think, don’t worry so much about the food piece. Definitely eat when you’re hungry, probably eat earlier in the day and see how that helps. But like, if you’re struggling being a parent of two small children, you are not alone and you really deserve support on that.In terms of your question about what are some other easy coping mechanisms? I’m just trying to think what I do when I’m really done with a long day with my kids, and a lot of it is texting friends. I actually have multiple groups: my local mom friends, my far away mom friends, whoever I feel like I can most dump how obnoxious the day has been. Talking to my partner. Finding a way to get outside often really helps. Like, it’s so annoying that that’s true. But even if it’s like, I leave the kids inside and I go stand out in the garden for a few minutes. That really helps me.Putting your children on screen time is very helpful. My kids get their screen time in the hour before dinner on weekdays.CorinneThat’s so smart.VirginiaThey’re terrible at that hour. They are their least likable selves. And I adore my children, but we’re just all our worst selves. We’re hungry. We’re grumpy. The day has been long, you know? So they get their screen time and I put on music I want to hear or a podcast while I’m cooking dinner and just having that separation and feeling like zero guilt about it is a really good strategy. CorinneI definitely also thought, go outside. Sometimes taking a shower can be a quick mood change. VirginiaYes. Lock the bathroom door.CorinneMaybe my strategies aren’t super kid-friendly. VirginiaNo, no, it’s fine. You are allowed to lock the door against your children when you are going to shower or pee.This next question is semi-related, so I thought we could segue into it. This person writes:What are your thoughts on food rewards? If I’m having a hard day or achieve something big or small, my impulse is to buy myself a croissant from the fancy bakery about it. I worry sometimes that I’m setting myself up to only let myself get croissants when I’m experiencing heightened emotion of one kind or another, and that it is maybe bad to use food in this way and could become restrictive pretty fast if I’m not careful. But on the other hand, the fancy bakery is expensive and I’m a broke grad student, so it feels less likely that my view of croissants as a reward is only being impacted by diet culture. Any advice you guys have for negotiating this would be appreciated.CorinneI feel like it’s fine to use food as like a reward. It’s fine to have other types of rewards, too. If you want to do a little science experiment, see like how you feel. Do something else for a reward or just buy yourself a croissant for no reason and see if you’re feeling bad or weird about that. VirginiaYeah, that would be good data to collect. I also am like, a croissant sounds like a great thing to do when you need a reward!CorinneEspecially a kind of low budget. I definitely use going out or special lunch as a treat. VirginiaYeah, or like I baked cookies yesterday because I was in the middle of a hard story but also my kids had a snow day. And yeah, that’s using food as a reward. But also food is reward, right? CorinneHave you ever trained a dog?VirginiaThis is a feature, not a bug and it’s how we’re made. So I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with it.I think what’s wrong with it is the way diet culture, demonizes it and tells you to feel like if you have the croissant, and then you feel like you can’t eat the next meal, or you have to somehow compensate with exercise. That’s the part I’m worried about. Not the croissant. Does it set up that restrictive pattern for you where you feel like you have to atone for having rewarded yourself? You deserve the reward, and then you deserve your next meal. You don’t have to do anything different with your life in response to that. CorinneIt sounds like they’re worried about only eating croissants when they have big feelings. VirginiaSo that’s certainly a reason to try just having croissants. Even if springing for the fancy bakery ones is not an option, maybe the frozen ones from the grocery store. Is there a budget croissant that could be your go to everyday croissant? And then you save the fancy ones? Because budget-wise, I get it. I’ve heard really good things about the Trader Joe’s chocolate filled croissants. CorinneOh yes, I’ve had those. You leave them out overnight to proof.VirginiaThey’re pretty magical. Maybe you could have some delightful croissant routine that’s just how you start Mondays or whatever. And see how that feels. CorinneOkay, this is a long one:I’m 38 and hair and makeup is getting weird for me. I noticed a pattern that when I’m in a season of feeling uncomfortable in my body, I highlight my naturally dark brown hair and really spend time on my makeup. When I’m feeling good in my body, I feel fine going au naturel. I’m trying to work this out. Over the years, makeup has become fun, creative artistry for me, but the genesis of it was me feeling ugly and out of place in the sixth grade and studying Kevyn Aucoin books to learn to make myself beautiful. And the hair—it feels like blonde highlights are somehow abandoning my true dark haired self. I guess I’m trying to figure out what it looks like to have a beauty routine for me somewhere in the middle. Diet culture Skipper is beauty culture, and I don’t want to feel like I have to morph into some version of a real housewife to feel okay about myself. There’s also another pressure to be as natural as possible and that the only way to be a true feminist is to reject all of it. That’s not me either! So I guess the question is, how do you find the middle? VirginiaOkay, so first, I have to know if the Kevyn Aucoin reference flashed to you back to ninth grade the way it did for me. CorinneI have no idea who Kevyn Aucoin is.VirginiaI need you to Google him immediately. We need to address this.CorinneKevyn Aucoin, photographer and author. In the 90’s he was wholly responsible for the quote sculpted look of many celebrities and top models, including Whitney Houston, Cher, Madonna, blah, blah, blah…He authored several industry defining books with makeup techniques, including facial contouring, which was relatively unknown.VirginiaAre you seeing the book covers? I want you to see the book cover.CorinneOh, the cover does look familiar to me now that I’m seeing it. VirginiaI mean, he very much transformed people. The book is all before and afters. This was before it was normal for makeup to give you new skin. Do you know what I mean? Like, he launched this whole idea that makeup should give you this like new baby skin.CorinneIt looks very Kardashian. VirginiaYes. He was like the early developer of that aesthetic. I mean, I’m not a makeup historian. I worked in a bookstore when his book was a bestseller, so I used to flip through it all the time and study the faces because there are just these mind blowing transformations. And I think it really fucked us up, so here we are. CorinneAre you now or have you ever been into makeup? VirginiaNo. I was fascinated by him in the same way I was fascinated by makeup stories in women’s magazines as a teenager. I would sort of study like how they did it, but I never really got into executing it myself.I have a really close friend who’s an incredible makeup artist and I see the artistry of it. Like it really is art. And also, it is in many cases—not necessarily the way she does it, but like in many cases—it is about transforming your face into this white, super thin, super contoured ideal that’s extremely racist and problematic. So there’s a lot of layers to make up. And I think enjoying the fun, creative artistry side of it is great but knowing that it starts in this kind of dark place for you is tricky. CorinneUsing it as a tool when you’re not feeling good about yourself. VirginiaYeah, and I think this is very common. I mean, I don’t do it with makeup, but I do it with my hair for sure. If you are aware of your general appearance not fitting into some set of standards and that standard will never be achievable to you, you do kind of look for like, well, what can I? You know, like, “where can I fit in?” can sometimes be a compensation strategy that is understandable and also complicated.So I can relate to a little bit of what she’s talking about. I’ve had phases in my life where it felt hard. I mean, I’ve never been a big makeup person, but I do also notice when I wear it, after a couple of weeks of wearing it regularly, I feel weird about how my face looks without it. And so then I don’t wear it for a while to get re-used to myself. I even noticed this with glasses. Now that I wear glasses all the time, when I do occasionally wear contacts I’m like, “who is she? What is my face doing?”CorinneThat’s really funny.VirginiaBecause I think glasses can be a little bit of a mask, as well. So I think you’re you’re noticing a lot of really useful things. We are all programmed to crave beauty in certain ways, because of toxic systems. And also, you are allowed to do with your face what you want. CorinneCan you distinguish between stuff that you’re doing because it makes you feel good and stuff that you’re doing because you feel bad about yourself? Or is that one and the same? VirginiaThat’s an interesting question. Is there stuff where you’re like, “this I could never leave the house without.” Like, “I can never leave the house without concealer.” That feels like something to examine, versus it is fun to put on pink lipstick CorinnePutting stuff on your face also can feel good. Are you enjoying the smells or the sense experience? Versus being like, “my face is puffy, I need to roll it with this stick!” VirginiaWhat is your narrative when you are making up your face? Are you in critical mode dissecting all your flaws? Or are you enjoying the process of going from A to B? That’s an interesting question to explore. I would say, if you haven’t already read The Unpublishable by Jessica DeFino, it’s an incredible Substack. She basically does for the beauty industry what we do for diet culture and really interrogates a lot of this. I think her work may give you more touch points for where you want to go with exploring this.Man, Kevyn Aucoin.CorinneThanks for introducing me. I’ll be spending the next 10 years trying to contour my face. VirginiaOh, Lord. Let’s see.I’m starting a new job soon. It will be my first in-office job in over 10 years. I’ve long gotten rid of anything I used to wear to an office and had been living in yoga pants and sweats. Even if I still had my old clothes, my body is different. And in my 40s I’m solidly in plus size now. Usually 18/20 or 1x/2x. I’m relieved to see a lot of my old standbys: Banana Republic, J. Crew, Ann Taylor, Boden, etc, offering clothes in my current size and that’s where I’ll start. But I’m wondering if I’m sleeping on any newer brands! Would love any recommendations for office clothing. The dress code is my least favorite: business casual. So the mostly male staff can just live in khakis and polos every day like it’s a uniform, but for women, I think it’s challenging. It’s not jeans or yoga pants (sob) and it’s not full on dress pants and button up shirts. And I personally don’t want anything see through, cropped, lowcut or the like and there’s a lot of that around.Okay, well, so neither of us dress for an office. CorinneBut I have! And I do hate business casual. VirginiaYes. You’ve talked about your hatred of business casual. It is a terrible dress code.CorinneThe brand that popped into my mind right away was Universal Standard. Also, Eileen Fisher. Sorry, not sponsored.VirginiaWe’re so repetitive. Every episode! Yeah, but they are both great for size inclusive quality pieces. They kind of hit that dress code level that you’re looking for. The Universal Standard Ponte Pant. I mean, they are awesome. I own three pairs because there was a good sale. Let’s see, though. What other brands is she sleeping on? CorinneI would say on the lower budget side, like Target? We both have great stuff from Target. Old Navy. And then I feel like also you could also go in a super expensive direction, right? You could look at like 11 Honore which is very high end plus sized stuff.1Virginia I’ve never bought anything from them.CorinneOh my gosh, it’s very fancy. There are so many like smaller brands now. There’s Elizabeth Suzann… VirginiaA brand that I got a good dress and a good turtleneck from was The Kit. CorinneI’ve never even heard of that. VirginiaDacy of Mindful Closet turned me on to them. I will say I am wearing the 2x/3x so their size inclusivity is not awesome. And their return policy was annoying. I ended up paying too much for these items because I missed the return window on returning the other sizes. But they have really cool fabrics and really cool patterns, just unusual. I have this great striped turtleneck from them that I love with my ponte pants.So that’s a fun one. If you like bold prints, maybe Nooworks? They do a shirt dress that could definitely work, depending on like the vibe of your office. CorinneYeah. What about something like Stitch Fix? VirginiaOh, that’s a great idea. Doing Stitch Fix will introduce you to more new brands. They have some house brands that I think you don’t really get at these other places. Plus they rotate in other stuff. And similarly, I would say searching your size on Nordstrom or Zappos, or—this is another Dacy tip—Dillards. It can be surprisingly better than you expect it to be because all of those sites carry a huge mix of brands. So you’ll just find some different stuff as opposed to the same old, same old. Dacy has found me some really great stuff from all three of those places. And I would not have put in that work myself because they are kind of exhausting to search, but there’s good stuff. Draper James dresses, that’s another good one.All right, fun. Report back!CorinneLet us know what you ended up wearing.I am someone with a skinny body and I am not infrequently asked questions along the lines of “how do you stay so thin?” This is normally asked from people in larger bodies than me. Do you have any recommendations on how to answer in a way that challenges the anti-fatness inherent in this question? How can I be a good ally in this situation? I’m normally a bit taken aback and having a sentence or two to fall back on would be great. My own perspective is that I  live a lot like everyone else and genetics predispose me to have this body. I mean, the fact that my mom and sister can exchange clothes with me means something right? I’ve never actively tried anything for this frame but that answer does not feel right in the moment.VirginiaI mean, what I want you to say, but it’s probably not socially appropriate all the time is, “would you ask a fat person how do they stay so fat?” Like, call out the fatphobia of the question. Because it is a gross question. And what it is saying is, you have this ideal body the rest of us can’t achieve and you must inherently know something about achieving thinness that you need to tell us. And what we actually understand about weight is that it is mostly genetics—you’re exactly right. This is not something you did through lifestyle or sheer will or cleverness, so expecting you to have secrets is just steeped in diet culture, steeped in bias. And if there’s a way you can call that out, do it. CorinneI just also hate this question because what if the answer is, “I’m ill.”VirginiaIt’s an awful question. The flip side of it is you are saying you don’t diet and you just have these genetics. But there are lots of people who are in thin bodies who are not supposed to be in thin bodies.CorinneOr like, I have like digestive issues. VirginiaI’m depressed. Or, I’m getting divorced. Thanks for asking. CorinneYour instinct that this is a rude, weird question is spot on. VirginiaI wonder if it’s worth just setting a boundary and saying, “I don’t think that’s helpful to talk about,” or something like, “oh, bodies are the least interesting thing to talk about. Let’s talk about something else,” could be useful language in certain moments when it’s someone where you can’t really get into it.CorinneI think it’s also a situation where you could be like, “Why do you ask?” or try to turn it around, like let’s take a moment of reflection here on whether that’s an appropriate thing to say to a person. VirginiaI’m thinking of your strategy of “Oh, that’s so interesting.” That’s so interesting. An interesting question. You want to know how I stay so thin? That seems really important to you. Why is thinness so important to you?CorinneI also thought that the answer that the person sort of gave in the question was pretty good. “I’ve never tried anything,” right? “I think it’s just genetic. I share clothes with my mom and sister.” VirginiaMaybe a kinder way, depending on who’s asking, would be something like, “well, bodies come in all shapes and sizes and I really don’t know.” The other thing is you really don’t know why you have this body. None of us really know why we have the bodies we have. Isn’t it amazing how we all come in different shapes and sizes? That’s the answer I would give to a kid, I think. Maybe also an adult I liked, I guess, who is still crossing a line. It’s also valid to just be like, “I don’t want to talk about my body.”Corinne“I don’t find that question helpful.”VirginiaAlright, another clothing one.I’d love to hear you talk about dressing up for special occasions, especially when there’s photography involved bringing up body feelings, like family weddings, holiday parties, etc. The pressure around looking fancy and spending money on something new and being perceived beyond the day to day level.CorinneYeah, this is definitely bringing up the feelings. Where I’ve landed on this is that it’s just so much more important to me to be comfortable. I’m not going to wear anything, that I feel even slightly uncomfortable in. And if there’s a tiny twitch in the back of my mind that’s like, are these pants riding up? Or like, is this shirt too tight? I’m just not going to wear it. I’m going to find something else. VirginiaSame. I love prioritizing your comfort above all. That is really liberating. I think it’s useful to consider, are the feelings your feelings are the feelings of the people you’re going to be seeing? A friend of mine texted me recently because she was on her way to a family event and she had decided to wear something that she was comfortable and felt good in, but she was like, “What are the odds my mom says something about what I’m wearing?” And like, “and then how do I respond?” So if you’re worrying about someone else’s response to your body, that is such a them problem. That is not a you problem. I think the whole concept of dress codes has really indoctrinated us to believe that like the way we present our bodies in certain occasions is somehow a sign of respect or it’s offensive if you show up wearing the wrong thing. There’s still a part of me that can’t wear jeans to go see a Broadway play because I just hear my British grandmother being appalled. Like, I get it. But also those roles can be taken to such an extreme and you just don’t owe anyone else in the room your body. CorinneYeah. Definitely true. I was curious about the part where it says “especially when photography is involved,” and I know you’ve had some photographs taken.Virginia Yes. Doing author’s photos.CorinneDid you feel pressure to look fancy? VirginiaI mean, for sure. Not wedding fancy, but for sure. I mean, that’s a whole other thing, because it’s also a professional thing and it’s marketing and—oh boy. Yeah. Work with Dacy at Mindful Closet if you can. She’s a lifesaver. She makes the process really fun and helps you.CorinneDid she help you specifically with outfits for photos?VirginiaFor the author shoot, yes.CorinneShe’ll help people for special events?VirginiaShe has a special program where she kind of walks you through your whole closet and helps you figure out your personal style and that was like a super helpful experience. But for the author photoshoot or for the book tour, I’m hiring her more on like a one-off. Like, okay, let’s work on outfits just for this. It’s obviously privileged that I can afford to do that. Dacy is worth every penny, but it is a privilege to be able to hire someone to help like that. But I also recognize that this is where my lingering body stuff shows up, is in my feelings about what I’m going to wear to a thing. And having someone help me through that and who could really talk to me about what would feel good for me to wear and what did I not want, both comfort and aesthetics, it just took so much pressure off. It made me love everything that I wore in a way that if I had picked it out solely in my own little brain, there would have been so much more second guessing.CorinneInteresting. I went through this a little bit last summer with a big wedding I was going to and what I did was I bought and returned a shitload of stuff and took photos and just tried to decide based on how I felt and then how I thought the photos looked. And also, like, texted a lot of friends. If you don’t have the means to work with someone, I think there’s also a lot you can get out of just doing it yourself. Dacy also has super helpful TikToks.VirginiaI love the idea of putting together a little panel or a person or two where you’re like, you are going to help me through this process.The last tip I’ll give for this one is: If you have something you already own that you love, you can wear it to another event. I bought a dress that I absolutely loved for my sister’s wedding in 2021 from Tanya Taylor, which is very high end, but it was my sister’s wedding so I’m allowed to buy a fancy dress. And I love this dress! It fits me great. I had it tailored, it’s just perfect. And when we had a wedding to go to last summer, part of my brain immediately was like, “Oh, I need to dress for that wedding.” And then I was like, “What am I doing? I have an amazing dress that I spent a lot of money on that fits me great!” So I am going to wear that same dress to every wedding until my body changes or it falls apart. If you have an option, it does not matter that it got worn to one event. Even if there are some of the same people, it doesn’t matter. You can wear the same thing. I loved when Kate Baer went on her book tour and wore the same blazer to every book event. I think we need more of that energy. This is now your iconic look.CorinneI’m gonna ask this one.I’m curious about navigating anti-diet culture and fat acceptance with a partner. In this case, he’s male, I’m female, he still subscribes to a baseline of healthy eating and exercise so it is quite triggering for me. I’m in a small to medium fat body and in recovery from atypical anorexia and exercise disorder. I’ve been invested in anti-diet and fat acceptance for about six years now, but my husband, though encouraging of my mental stability and happiness, still eats less than me and has some generalized rules about when to eat and what to eat. For example, if you have pizza one night, you can’t have pasta the next night, and he does some form of exercise, stationary cycling, yoga, walks most days, I’m in the process of separating from the web of exercise that has plagued me for the last 20+ years. What that looks like for me is canceling all or most forms of regular exercise, even neighborhood walks, and letting the space settle before decide what if anything I would like to do in that arena. Basically, I’m just asking what your experience of navigating all this has been like, while being with a partner who has been with you before through and after the shift from diet obsessed to ditching diet mentality. What did / does this look like for you?And any tips you can share on keeping on with figuring out your way of doing things while they keep doing their thing?VirginiaOh, this is such a good question. First, I just want to say congratulations on being in recovery and doing this really, really hard work. And I love that you are giving yourself space from exercise and taking care of yourself. That’s amazing. I have a thing I want your husband to read. It is a piece that ran on Autostraddle. Do you know what I’m talking about? CorinneThe piece is called You Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful Girlfriend and the author is Heather Hogan.VirginiaI mean. Heather. Chef’s kiss! All of this. It’s perfection. So I want you to share this piece with your husband because Heather articulates so perfectly the ways in which one partner can harm another partner over this issue. Like the ways in which your husband may not realize or be reckoning with his own fat bias, his own stuff, and like how it’s showing up in your relationship and how unfair that is for you.Heather talks so well about how loving a person is something we do regardless of what’s happening with their body. If you can’t stand with your partner through body changes, how are you going to stand with them through real crises? Like health issues or job loss, depression, etc, you know? And it’s just a perfect piece for summing up what I want your husband to be doing for you, which it sounds like maybe he’s not quite there. And I don’t want to shame him for that. But you are doing this really hard work and it is valid to say to your partner, I need you to do some work, too.CorinneI don’t even know where we’re start. I feel like my experience is generally that it’s really hard to get people on board if they’re not. It’s not always possible to convince someone.VirginiaYeah, and it sounds like he’s got his own stuff, right? He’s got a lot of rules about what he eats. He’s pretty religious about his exercise habits.CorinneHave you had that conversation with him? Does he know that it’s actively upsetting for you?VirginiaHow much have you communicated this with him? And what responses are you getting? But I do think just generally being able to radically communicate where you are with this, what you need, and not feel bad about stating those needs. That kind of honesty is the only way through it, I think. Even if it may lead to some really hard conversations because he’s in a very different place than it sounds like you are. CorinneYeah. Do you have other places that you recommend that people start if they’re trying to get a partner on board?VirginiaThe fact that you have a diagnosis and you’re in recovery, it just says to me that this is so serious and he should be on board with your recovery. So maybe it’s a question of like, “I really appreciate how much you support this in the big picture, but in our day-to-day lives, there are ways that your behavior creates something I have to deal with.”If I knew that some daily routine of mine was causing harm to my partner, I would want to know, so I could assess whether I needed to maintain that routine. And most likely, if I love this partner and I’m supporting their recovery, I do not need to maintain that routine. But if that’s hard for me to give up, then that suggests that some stuff I have to look at because I would argue that your partner’s mental health is more important than you not eating pizza and pasta two nights in a row! It sounds like a tricky one.We’re sending you a lot of love. And I hope that this leads to some good conversations for you guys. CorinneOkay, I’m gonna read the last question.I miss Comfort Food so much and the awesome camaraderie that Amy and Virginia have. Will Amy be a guest on Burnt Toast anytime soon? So I’m trying not to take this one personally. VirginiaUm, I think Corinne and I have awesome camaraderie, you guys.CorinneI mean, I also like Amy/Virginia camaraderie.VirginiaThis was such a funny question to me. It’s one of those things where I forget that people don’t know that Amy and I talk every day. Y’all aren’t in those conversations. CorinnePeople just miss being in on your conversations.VirginiaI’m texting with her right now. What do you need to know? And she’s often in the comments! I mean, in last month’s Ask Us Anything, she was an accidental guest star with the tequila story.I don’t have her scheduled for an episode, I will get her scheduled for an episode. She has an awesome cookbook coming out in the fall, so I’ll definitely have her on so we can hear all about that. Amy, if you’re listening, we will sort that out. But Amy is pretty busy running the world, guys. CorinneShe has a really good Tiktok. VirginiaShe has an amazing Tiktok, she has an amazing Instagram, she has an amazing blog. She is just killing it at all of the stuff she is doing. I am so super proud of her. ButterVirginiaShould we do butter?CorinneYeah, let’s do butter.VirginiaWhat do you have?CorinneLet me start with a question. Do you know who Glennon Doyle is?VirginiaI mean, yes?CorinneOkay. Well I didn’t. Like, I’ve heard about her, but I was just like, she’s probably not for me.VirginiaI haven’t been a super regular listener of her podcast, but I have gotten pulled in when there’s been different guests, like her Indigo Girls episode. I was in tears.CorinneNow I’m going to interrupt you because my recommendation is her podcast. But specifically—and like I literally have only listened to three episodes—but someone recommended to me the episode where she has Sonya Renee Taylor on.Virginia I have that one downloaded! [Post-recording note from Viginia: And then I listened and was equally blown away and wrote this.]CorinneIt’s so good. I started listening and was like, “Whoa, backup, I need some background info.” And so I guess what happened—and I don’t know if you’re all up to date on this—is she has recently been diagnosed with anorexia. VirginiaYes. CorinneSo that’s the background. The Sonya Renee Taylor episode is amazing. And then they also just put out one that’s an update on her treatment and what’s happening. It’s also just really good. Everyone else already knows this, why am I talking about it?! She just has a really interesting way of talking about it. Specifically in the recent like recovery episode update, there was a part where she talks about going through her closet and realizing that basically all her clothes have been policing her body size because they’re tiny jeans and stuff that there’s not really room to expand in. That really blew my mind and has me thinking a lot about stuff. So anyways, I recommend Glennon Doyle that everyone already knows about. VirginiaI mean, she is brilliant. And I really give her a ton of credit for this new arc in this podcast now. Because I think it’s a conversation that like—God, it’s so hard to talk about your own recovery and just her willingness to be vulnerable. And it helps put into context some stuff she’s done in the past. Like, I think she’s just like doing a lot of reckoning with all of this in a way that’s super important. And yeah, the Sonya Renee Taylor episode, I literally have it downloaded to listen to while I’m cooking dinner and ignoring my children tonight.CorinneGood luck.VirginiaAnd if you’re an Indigo Girls fan, her interview with the Indigo Girls, you will sob throughout. Amy and Emily just talking about addiction and friendship and life and it’s just like the most beautiful conversation.Alright, my butter is my new snow boots. They are Bogs snow boots. This is a classic mom thing where you buy your kids the really nice thing and then you don’t buy yourself the nice thing. So I have bought the Bogs snow boots for my children for several years. They are a pricey brand of snow boot, but I have two girls. So whatever I buy the older one, we get multiple winters out of these things. And they are such well made snow boots. You can pull them on really easily. They’re totally waterproof and they’re comfy. They’re just great. I’m now telling every parent listening to this podcast something they already know about Bogs. But my butter is that I bought myself some after many seasons of just wearing the same crappy snow boots that weren’t comfortable and had laces. I hate shoes with laces. I don’t have time in my life for laces. And now I’m just the happiest when I’m taking the dog out or going out to the school bus in the morning. They’re gonna be great in the garden! I got olive green ones because they felt spring garden-y me, too. So I think I’ll be wearing them in like the muddy early spring garden days. CorinneThey’re very cute. VirginiaYep, they’re cute. They have like a flowery pattern. Some of the patterns are not great. You have to you have to vet carefully, but I like the pair I got. (I also got the shorter height, which is better for wide calves.)CorinneAre they comfortable for walking?VirginiaI haven’t taken them on a hike or a walk walk. They’re definitely comfortable walking around my yard. They feel like kind of memory foam-ish inside. You know what I mean? There’ll be fine for running errands. I just don’t know if you would want to hike in them. They’re great, though. So if you’ve been buying your kids something really nice, and it also comes in your size and would be useful to you, get it for yourself! Because you deserve that.Alright, Corinne, thank you so much. This was awesome. Just remind folks where they can find you.CorinneYou can find me on Instagram at @Selfiefay or at @selltradeplus.---The Burnt Toast podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at @v_solesmith. Our transcripts are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris MaxwellAnd Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and supporting independent anti-diet journalism! Note from Corinne: Apparently since the last time I checked the 11 Honore website, they have been acquired by Dia & Co and it looks very different! But Dia & Co is also a great place to look.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast where we talk about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.It’s time for another community episode! As I said in our first community episode on anti-diet resolutions last month, this is a new format we’re experimenting with and I’m thinking of these as Friday Threads for your ears—a chance to hear each other’s stories and perspectives and learn from each other. This month, we’re tackling the new AAP guidelines for the treatment of pediatric ob*sity. This is a story I’ve been following for weeks now; I wrote about it for the NYT and then more extensively here on Burnt Toast, and have also been getting lots of media requests from other outlets. And it has been pretty fucking exhausting, to be honest—because it’s hard to be faced with this brick wall of anti-fatness from an organization we’re supposed to be able to trust, and because, as a semi public figure, it’s also a lot to then deal with the other brick wall of anti-fatness that comes from people on the internet when we talk about these issues. So I want to be clear: This episode is not interested in both sides. The conversation we’re having here today is intended to articulate the harm we are experiencing, as fat people, as parents, as humans concerned about the safety of other humans.I also want us to start brainstorming ways we can advocate for change, both on a broader scale, and in terms of our own interactions with healthcare providers. To that end, Corinne reached out to some expert voices we trust in fat advocacy and the eating disorder community, to give us some bird’s eye view perspective as well. Here’s Dr. Rachel Millner, an eating disorder therapist and fat activist, who previously visited the podcast to talk about the relationship between fatness and trauma. I really appreciate how Rachel roots the problem here in the wild power imbalance that exists between doctors and other medical authorities and fat patients: I think it's easy when we see a long document with lots of references and a list of authors who are physicians or in related fields to make the assumption that the document is complete and actually rooted in science. And that the document is including all of the available research and not just telling one side of the story. Unfortunately, with this document, they are only revealing some of the information and not all of it.One of the really obvious omissions is that they do not list in this document, the ways that the authors financially benefit from bariatric surgery, medications, and weight loss programs for children. They don't tell us. This document does not disclose the financial investment or benefit that these authors have.It also doesn't include all of the research. And a lot of the research they did include is really not adequate, not high quality research studies. I think there's probably a piece of them that know that a lot of people are not going to go through all of the references. But if you do go through the references, you see where they neglected to include so much important information. Corinne did a lot of work on the financial piece of this when we were first getting our arms around this story. Here’s a conversation we had about this back when my NYT piece first ran: Corinne: I looked into all of the authors of the paper and the main thing that stood out to me was everyone has a financial interest in weight loss surgery. Everyone works at or founded a clinic that does weight loss surgery. So, it's just very complicated. And that doesn’t count as something you have to declare.Virginia: Yeah, I think people don't understand that you can be an author on a paper saying that bariatric surgery is good and should be done more and you can make most of your livelihood as a surgeon who performs those surgeries. That is not seen as a conflict of interest, right? Because you are an expert in the field. And that feels really, really tricky.Corinne: You only have to change that a little bit to see the problem. Like, “I'm a plastic surgeon. I'm recommending everyone get plastic surgery.” That sounds like a conflict of interest.Virginia: Right, hammers find nails. And maybe it would be different if we had socialized healthcare and surgeons didn't make so much money from these procedures. If their financial gain was less concretely tied to their ability to sell their services, but doctors are selling consumer services, as well as saving lives or promoting health or whatever grander mission we ascribe to that profession. They are also in a consumer facing business and that is super complicating. And so in a perfect world, they are paid the same regardless of whether they perform the surgeries or don't perform the surgeries, which is sort of impossible to imagine. Or you would only have this research done by people who don't actively benefit directly from the things they're studying.Corinne: Right. And also, financials aside, if the point of the study is to determine whether or not kids should be having weight loss surgery, and you already believe that weight loss surgery is a good thing, you're coming into that very biased. It's not like we're just selecting 10 random people and asking them to consider the literature. These are all people that have already decided that weight loss surgery and weight loss drugs are a net good.I also appreciate that so many of the experts we reached out to were very willing and eager to name the potential for harm. Here’s Rachel again: I want to be clear that these recommendations will cause eating disorders. Usually I say things like contribute to eating disorders, because we know that eating disorders are complicated and there's probably a combination of factors that lead to the development of eating disorders. But I have no doubt that these guidelines will absolutely cause eating disorders.I've never met a fat adult who found a focus on their body size to be helpful. Not once. Every adult I've met who was a higher weight kid has named that focus on their body size, focus on weight loss, lead to shame, self hatred, a lifetime of dieting, a lifetime of harm, not ever feeling better, not ever, having more body satisfaction, not ever having more body trust, and the vast majority of time, not ever leading to a smaller body. So this idea that somehow supporting weight loss in kids is going to lead to them feeling better about themselves is just not accurate. It's just not true.And here’s Elizabeth Davenport, a dietitian who specializes in family feeding and eating disorder prevention, and the co-author of the SunnySide Up Nutrition blog and podcast: The Academy of Pediatrics guidelines are so awful that it's hard to even know where to start. So many kids are going to be harmed. Research shows that one of the biggest predictors developing an eating disorder is dieting, and these guidelines are telling physicians to tell kids in larger bodies to diet and to tell parents that that's what their kids need to do.I can't even count the number of clients I've seen in my career that have come into my office because a pediatrician made a comment about their weight. No child should be told that their body is wrong. And sadly, that's what the Academy of Pediatrics guidelines are doing: Telling kids their bodies are wrong.OK, we’ll hear more from the experts later, but now I want to get to your stories. As Elizabeth says, shameful comments from a healthcare provider can live rent-free in your head for decades, as Lia knows: It took me a really long time to realize that the damage done to my mental health in being ashamed of my weight and being afraid of going to doctors and feeling like I was failing at something because of my weight was much greater than any damage to my physical health that may have come from my weight. And this is obviously before doctors were told that they could prescribe weight loss surgery or weight loss drugs.I also really appreciated that my dear friend Amy Palanjian, who regular listeners know well from previous podcast episodes, reached out to talk about what these guidelines mean for her as an eating disorder survivor and as an influencer trying to make ethical content on Kid Food Instagram: It's taken me a while to even be able to acknowledge the guidelines because it's felt like a personal attack. I was a straight size kid on the edge of being in a larger body and wound up with a 15 year eating disorder because by the time I was 12, I was deemed too big, and also too slow, by adults around me. I don't remember my doctor being in that group, but I can't imagine how much worse it would have been had she been.I feel like my family, some of whom are in larger bodies, are being personally attacked now and targeted with this. I cannot understand how “experts” can lay out the research and explain how weight loss pursuits don't work, and then double down on it as the solution. I also don't understand how it can be offered as a solution if it's not actually accessible or affordable to the majority of the families.I worry about how this will potentially be monetized by influencers online.I worry about how much harder this will make feeding kids in general.And I don't know how to feel about all the other AAP guidelines I have long quoted as I feel like they are now not a very reliable source of information. I clearly have a lot of feelings about this.Amy isn’t the only parent wondering whether we can trust the AAP guidance in general now. I think the AAP has done a lot of good, but I think this is a fair question. Here are Ellen and Katie:  On top of all of the concerns and outrage that I have, that so many of us have, I find myself wondering how I'm supposed to still consider the AAP a voice of reason and trust.This isn't the first time I've questioned their guidance. For example, I think they recommend that you keep an infant in the room with its parents for up to a year, is what they recommend. With my son, we lasted eight weeks before we moved him into his nursery, and it saved my mental health.So I'm familiar with going against the grain when it comes to the AAP’s recommendations. But there's something about these recommendations that just absolutely reeks of profit seeking, of ignorance disguised as empathy, of seeming to care about our children, while actively refusing to acknowledge the mountains of evidence around eating disorders, and anti-fat bias, and all of the harm that those things can cause at any age.I think if we've learned anything, during the pandemic, we've learned about the precariousness of science in our culture, and the fragility of trusted medical voices. We don't need more medical institutions to be this out of touch with reality because it runs the risk of more people abandoning science, of ignoring actual sound recommendations that do exist. Parenting is hard enough.  It just makes me sad and my eyes are watering now just thinking about it all. I am sad for the little girl that I was, and the harmful impact that these guidelines would have had on me in a world that was already so critical, and so quick to want me to change my body. And I'm really sad for my own kids. Now as a mom, for whom I've done so much work on myself to be a better more supportive parent. And all the work that I've done just to support them differently than I was. And it feels like all that work I've done is for naught. If these external influences, including people with quote authority, are so contrary and loud.So my two kids are under four. And I have navigated a global pandemic, a formula shortage, infant and child pain reliever shortage, and more. And each event causes me to lose trust in these institutions that I thought were supposed to work for and with me as a parent and not against me, and I feel like now I'm adding the AAP to that list of institutions that have lost my trust.Lots of you have told us how these guidelines make taking your child to the doctor feel unsafe. Here are Kate and Sarah with their stories: As a parent of three children, two daughters and a son, I am increasingly concerned about taking my kids to the doctor in this environment.As an adult, I refuse to look at the weight when I’m at the doctor, I refuse to let them talk to me about my weight when I'm at the doctor. I have a history of eating disorders and exercise addiction and I can't have a scale in my house. So going to the doctor is a fraught experience for me.I hate that they weigh my children when they go to the doctor. And at my last appointment, I went to with my teenager and my 11 year old. My teenager wanted to meet with the doctor by herself to talk about her periods and stuff like that, she didn't want her little sister in the room. And afterwards, she was really kind of upset about the appointment. And she said that the doctor talked to her about her BMI. I was absolutely horrified. I'm now having to decide whether I talk to the doctor about it or if I switch doctors again. I am really nervous about taking my kids to the doctor right now. And I think that's really sad as a parent. When they were little it was a it was kind of a joyous experience getting into check in on how they're doing, how is their health, and now I look at it as kind of a hostile situation.I worry all the time that one of my daughter's earliest memories might be a doctor telling her that she is overweight, too big, too fat. From the very first well visits that I took her on as a baby, as an infant, we were told that she was abnormally large, too large, too big. I was asked, as her mother, what was I feeding her. I was told that my answers weren't sufficient. I saw in her medical charts that the doctors didn't necessarily believe me or my husband. We tried alternating who was taking her to see if we would get a different reaction out of the doctors. We went through three doctors, three pediatricians. And they referred us to multiple different specialists, nutritionists, endocrinologists, and we had many sleepless nights worrying, was there something wrong with our child? Our only child, our first child. Every specialist that we finally got in with laughed at us. Kindly, they said, “Why have you brought me a fat baby? There is nothing wrong with this child. I have other patients to see. Thank you so much for coming in.”The irony is that all this time, my daughter had a very serious rare condition that was being completely overlooked. She had a skin condition that was keeping her up nights. She eventually went on to develop asthma. And I believe that the doctors focusing so much on her weight caused them to completely disregard what I was telling them was a problem. The only recommendations the doctors were giving me were to take her to specialists to reconsider how much I was feeding her. I'm still getting over how traumatizing the experience was as a new mom who was suffering from postpartum anxiety. And here’s Oona Hanson, an amazing parent educator and eating disorder recovery advocate who I learn so much from: I can't stop thinking about the toll these medications and weight loss surgeries will have on children in terms of their GI system. Knowing the side effects of these interventions, all I can think about is the emotional and physical torment more kids will endure in ways that will have an immeasurable impact on their self image, their relationships, and their ability to learn. This cruelty disguised as health care is appalling. It's one example of the way prioritizing shrinking a child's body temporarily seems to matter more to this committee than the child's actual health and wellbeing.I'm also thinking about all the kids out there whose parents aren't listening to this podcast or reading this newsletter, who simply don't know to resist a doctor's recommendation, or who have doubts, but don't feel safe questioning the authority of a medical professional. These new guidelines will disproportionately harm the most vulnerable kids, kids of color, kids with fat parents, kids living in poverty, kids whose parents are immigrants, and so many other marginalized identities.What really boggles my mind is that the doctor's office already wasn't a safe place for kids in terms of attitudes toward bodies food and exercise. Comments from the doctor are already one of the most common eating disorder origin stories. This happened to my own kid, and it's happened to so many other families that I've worked with. These comments from the doctor aren't just part of the catalyst for the eating disorder. They help fuel the eating disorder and complicate recovery. These kids come back to the refrain again and again, “but the doctor said this is what I needed to do to be healthy.”For parents worrying about how to navigate these appointments, Rachel Millner has some good advice: You can say no on behalf of your child. I believe that children should also be asked and given the opportunity to consent to things that will happen to their body, but they are going to be powerless in this situation, they're going to feel pressure to say yes. And so parents and caregivers need to be able to step in and say no, you do not have any obligation to adhere to what's recommended in these guidelines. And remember that you’re actually making the “healthy” choice to push back like this. These guidelines aren’t about health, because intentional weight loss has never really been about health. Here’s Calvin’s story: I think for me, as someone who's, I don't know, medium fat person, large fat, specifically a Black man, living at the intersection of several marginalized, historically oppressed identities. And also someone who's dieted in the past and had several iterations of sizes over my adult life, and navigating my own relationship with my body, and diet culture and really, also engaging with the medical community pretty frequently as a disabled person— It's pretty triggering to see recommendations like bariatric surgery as young as 12 years old.It brought up for me a recent visit to a bariatric surgeon. I was contemplating the gastric balloon procedure, and have since decided that I don't want to do that. The doctor told me in the visit that I wasn't a good candidate for the balloon, because the ideal candidate is a woman who's going to get married who wants to lose maybe 30 pounds for the wedding. It was just all very toxic and triggering and it made me very upset.To think that children as young as 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years old now are going to potentially have to face medical professionals and people who they are trusting to give them sound advice, to engage with this type of dialogue. It's really upsetting.It’s upsetting because we’re letting capitalism and diet culture interrupt the trust that should be fundamental to a child’s relationship with their healthcare provider. And that’s both dangerous to kids and ignores so many larger issues.Here’s Anna Lutz, RD, the other half of Sunnyside Up Nutrition and a dietitian who specializes in family feeding and eating disorders in North Carolina: I think about what it does to a child to be told that there's something wrong with their body solely based on their weight and what that does to a parent to hear that they are failing as a parent, solely based on their child's weight.This interferes with the feeding relationship, because a parent would feel like they need to possibly restrict their child's eating.This interferes with the doctor patient relationship.This interferes with the doctor parent relationship.And all of this causes weight stigma, which we know has significant mental and emotional and physical repercussions. The guidelines recommend very intense restrictive food and exercise intervention. We know that diets don't work, they even say it in the paper that that doctor should expect weight regain. We know that that weight cycling, that losing weight and gaining weight, has significant health repercussions. And it sets up the child to go to the next recommendation, medications and bariatric surgery. These have severe side effects, but also sets up children to develop eating disorders.These guidelines once again focus on individuals, putting the blame on individuals and recommending interventions that will actually cause harm and make our children less healthy.And here’s Rachel again: These guidelines move kids away from getting to be kids. The side effects the focus on weight loss, going to appointments, getting the message that there's something wrong with them over and over again, is going to mean missing school, missing parties, missing time for playdates and connection.Part of what's so scary is that these documents they're using the guidelines are using language that makes you believe they are trying to decrease stigma. But you can't decrease stigma while suggesting stigmatizing interventions. It's just not possible.OK, I want to end with two recordings that really moved me. The first is from someone named Sarah who used to work for the AAP and has many thoughts about what these guidelines will do, and how they represent a huge departure both from where the AAP has been on this issue historically, and what the evidence shows kids actually need. I am a clinical social worker, although I'm not currently practicing, with a focus on public health and community based resources. I used to work for the AAP, both the National Organization of the AAP and then I was at the Illinois chapter of the AAP for a number of years. When I was at the Illinois chapter, I was actually the Senior Program Manager for child obesity prevention initiatives. This was back in 2012. What my responsibility was when I was there was trying to develop a programming and education for healthcare providers to provide more culturally competent and responsive care when talking with families who had kiddos who supposedly meet the overweight or obese definition.I've learned a lot in those 11 years since I was there, I would approach things wildly differently if I knew then what I know now. But that being said: Even what we were hoping to do 10 years ago was leading us in the complete opposite direction of what these current guidelines are now recommending, which is so incredibly frustrating because it feels like we are taking 20 steps backwards. And it's heartbreaking for a lot of reasons.These are not culturally responsive guidelines. They are really unrealistic guidelines. All of the data and the evidence that we presented when we were working on these programs 10 years ago, indicated that the BMI should not be the indicator or the benchmark that we are measuring people's health against.There needs to be systemic changes to access to food, access to safe outdoor spaces. Reliable basic income, affordable housing, I mean, the list goes on and on and on. But when you are looking and working with families who have all of these additional stressors in their life, and if you totally take out the cultural piece of it, working intensively with a nutritionist and a health care provider to help their kids maybe lose a pound or two is not a priority. And it's going to continue to create an unwillingness for families to continue to engage with their medical home or their primary care provider for any sort of issues, which is certainly not what we want to be doing. The healthcare infrastructure that we have right now is not set up to accommodate families who need extensive healthcare resources. My recommendation was for healthcare providers to shift the way that they are assessing and looking at a child's health because as we know weight is not the only indicator of health and I feel like this recommendation just shuts the door on that completely. Yeah, it's super heartbreaking. I can't imagine walking my two year old into a healthcare environment and having a doctor or a nurse tell me that my two year old needs intensive weight management. That's gross.So it is great to hear that there are folks in the trenches actively critiquing these guidelines and advocating for a different approach. If you are a healthcare provider working on this, I would love to hear from you and I would love to know how the Burnt Toast community can support your advocacy. And last, I want us to hear from Naomi, who has both been there and is now fighting hard for a better way: As a human being who grew up in a fat body and who started going to weight loss camps when I was 14, and when I think about the damage that five summers of weight loss camp between the ages of 14 and 22 did to me, and that I'm still unraveling at 40 years old. When I went to weight loss camp at 14, I was so excited about it. I knew that my life would be so different and better if I was thinner because I understood thin privilege, even though I didn't have a word for it. I understood that I would be treated better, that I would get more of what I want in this world, in a thinner body. I just wish that the adults in my life knew better, to give me the kind of support that I really needed, rather than try to help me change my body so that I would be protected from bullying.In my capacity as an educator and a curriculum writer, I'm working with the nonprofit organization The Body Positive to write curriculum for kindergarten through eighth graders, based on the five competencies of the Be Body Positive model.I'm in this amazing bubble, doing this work as I think about the possibilities that exist If if we're able to get this into the schools, to help kids stay connected to their wisdom, to help kids see and understand the messages that they get, where they come from, and why and how to resist them, to help kids to see and embrace and celebrate the diversity of humanity, and body size and race and disability in every way that we're different. Rather than to see it as something that's threatening or see it as something that's wrong. It's so amazing to get to work on this every day. hearing about the guidelines that came out. I just can't believe what a weird world it is that we live in where some people think this is truly the answer, to modify children's bodies, versus helping them live full beautiful, complex lives in an imperfect world. Naomi is right. It is such a weird world. But I’m glad to be fighting for the better way with all of you. Thank you to everyone who sent in recording—I’m sorry we couldn’t include every single one! And I hope you’ll keep talking and keep advocating about this.Thanks so much for listening today. ---The Burnt Toast podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at @v_solesmith. Our transcripts are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris MaxwellAnd Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and supporting independent anti-diet journalism!