The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] Should I Tell My 13-Year-Old to Take Smaller Bites?
It's our March Ask Us Anything episode! We're covering anti-diet puberty books, clothing size chart confusion, our style icons, and a mom who thinks her 13-year-old needs to chew her food more.
If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.
If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid.
Also, don't forget to preorder Virginia's new book! Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture comes out April 25, 2023 from Henry Holt. Preorder your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books.(Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
BUTTER & OTHER LINKS
the Unlikely Hikers Merrell collab
Celebrate Your Body (and Its Changes, Too!): The Ultimate Puberty Book for Girls
Love Your Body: Your Body Can Do Amazing Things...
No Weigh!: A Teen's Guide to Positive Body Image, Food, and Emotional Wisdom.
Universal Standard has some petite pants
the complaints of the mid-size queens
is it the ultra processed foods?
Muna and Broad pattern for underwear
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti-diet journalism.
Virginia
You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.
Corinne
And I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.
Virginia
It is time for your March Ask Us Anything episode! I feel like we should call these mailbag episodes? Ask Us Anything is so clunky. We should workshop that. If someone has a better name, let us now. But! It is time for us to answer your questions. We have a very good mix of questions. We’re going to do some parenting questions, some clothing questions, and then the miscellaneous smorgasbord kind of questions.
Corinne
The miscellaneous ones are always my favorite.
Virginia
Agreed.
Corinne
And this is also a paywalled episode! That means to hear the whole thing you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It’s just $5 per month or $50 for the year. Click here to join us!
Virginia
Corinne, what is new with you? It’s very windy at your house today, right?
Corinne
Yes. Spring into Mexico means horrible wind. We’re having 75 mile an hour winds.
Virginia
This sounds terrifying.
Corinne
If you don’t live somewhere where wind is a thing you don’t realize how bad it is. But it’s so bad. It just makes everyone in a bad mood.
Virginia
Is it dangerous? Like, can you drive?
Corinne
They do issue like high wind warnings, but I think it’s more for huge trucks.
Virginia
Stuff blowing around.
Corinne
Yeah, your roof blowing away. My other exciting thing is that this weekend, I went on an Unlikely Hikers hike.
Virginia
Oh, so fun. And how was it?
Corinne
It was fun. It was really cool.
Virginia
That’s awesome. I have been coveting the Unlikely Hikers Merrell collab.
Corinne
Yeah, some people were wearing those and they were very cute.
Virginia
My last Body Liberation Hiking Club hike, there were two if not three people wearing the boots and I was like, “Well, this is now all I can think about.”
Corinne
Now you need them. They’re very cute.
Virginia
And I just bought new hiking boots three months ago. So I missed the window. Cor folks who don’t know what Unlikely Hikers is, can you explain what that is and where they are and stuff?
Corinne
It’s run by this person named Jenny Bruso. Jenny travels around and does hikes in different areas. They also have worked with the brand Gregory to make plus size backpacks. And yeah, the Merrell boots. There are also starting to be some Unlikely Hikers chapters, so that’s cool. I’m hoping that maybe there will be one in Albuquerque!
Virginia
You can also start a Body Liberation Hiking Club. Because Alexa—Hi, Alexa!—launched that here in the Hudson Valley. And now we have chapters popping up all around, so we’ll link to that Instagram if people want to look for one. And I think they’re very in sync with Unlikely Hikers. I don’t think it’s like a Jets and Sharks rivalry situation or anything.
Corinne
Yeah, I’m sure it’s not.
Virginia
We are all for more people hiking in awesome ways.
Corinne
What’s new with you?
Virginia
What’s new with me is I have a child home sick. So, there’s nothing new with me. There is always a child home sick this time of year. So we may get some interruptions in this podcast recording, we’ll see. We’ve deployed her third parent the iPad to take care of things.
Corinne
Honestly, it would make me feel better if a child interrupted rather than my dog.
Virginia
You may just hear some faint coughing. I promise, she sounds like a Victorian waif but she’s totally fine. It’s just a cold. So, we’re going to start with parenting questions!
Corinne
Q: Anti-diet puberty books! At the recommendation of our doctor and the internet, we purchased the book The Care and Keeping of You Volume One for our eight year old girl. What a load of shit! So much diet talk/am I too big questions? How is this five stars on Amazon? Why are we telling children to talk to their doctors if they need to diet, to track the food they eat? I returned it. No need to have that book at our house when they are already given similar messaging out in the world. What puberty/sex ed for preteen book recommendations do you have?
Virginia
So, this is a spoiler for chapter 12 of my book, which is all about how anti-fat bias manifests in conversations around puberty. So get excited for that! Quick preorder shameless plug, make sure you’ve got Fat Talk coming! (Here’s how to get a signed copy, here’s the UK edition, and here’s the audiobook.)
But obviously, Fat Talk is not a book you will hand to your child. I do not explain puberty in any detail, but I talk about the messaging and I have a little bit on The Care and Keeping of You because that book is a wild ride. It has gone through many editions and I will say the newer editions are better. You may have purchased an older edition, but there are definitely still diet culture vibes throughout. The books that you need instead—and I’m pulling from the resource section of Fat Talk, so this will all be listed there, too:
Sonya Renee Taylor, of course: Celebrate Your Body (and Its Changes, Too!): The Ultimate Puberty Book for Girls. Now, there is one footnote to this. Sonya Renee Taylor is amazing. We have discussed our love for her. I have no criticisms of her. But the first edition of this book did have some food stuff in the nutrition section that folks objected to. I’ve had my nine year old read the book and I was like, “let me know if you have questions about the food stuff.” It just gets a little good food, bad food, but overall the book is phenomenal. I mean, not surprisingly, it’s very grounded in the The Body Is Not an Apology ethos. So that is a really fantastic one and the one we have in my house.
A Body Image Workbook for Every Body: A Guide for Deconstructing Diet Culture and Learning How to Respect, Nourish, and Care for Your Whole Self by Rachel Sellers and Mimi Cole is a nice one (though weirdly only available on Amazon).
More specific to foodstuff, which I know you’re asking for like puberty, sex ed, but I think it kind of relates, The Intuitive Eating Workbook for Teens: A Non-Diet, Body Positive Approach to Building a Healthy Relationship with Food by Elyse Resch is very good.
For younger 8-9 year olds, Love Your Body: Your Body Can Do Amazing Things... by Jessica Sanders and Carol Rossetti is a big picture book with amazing body diverse illustrations and lots of really great messaging about how your body will be changing and how to celebrate the changes and all of that. That one’s really good.
Last one, for more of a take on body image and food issues is No Weigh!: A Teen's Guide to Positive Body Image, Food, and Emotional Wisdom.
Did you ever read The Care and Keeping of You? Was that a puberty book you encountered?
Corinne
No, I’ve never read it or heard of it. The book that my mom gave me was called It’s Perfectly Normal. Have you seen that?
Virginia
Oh, yeah. We have that one, too.
Corinne
I haven’t revisited it but I thought it was pretty good. It’s from the nineties, but…
Virginia
It’s been updated, as well. We have that one. One critique of that one is it’s very gender normative.
Corinne
That makes sense.
Virginia
I think a lot of puberty books are pretty gender binary.
Corinne
It does have a lot of like other diversity, though. I remember there being fat people and people in wheelchairs.
Virginia
Yes, it is good on that. I mean, in general, I feel like puberty books are often very good on racial diversity, disability diversity, and less good on gender and body size diversity.
Corinne
That makes sense.
Virginia
There’s room in this market is what I’m saying.
Corinne
Yeah. I wonder if there are books out there that address the gender stuff, specifically.
Virginia
Sex is a Funny Word by Corey Silverberg is a really great one for introducing a lot of the sex ed topics. It talks about masturbation in a really positive way and it definitely talks about sex and gender and gender identity. All of that stuff is really well done.
What’s tricky about this topic is that people will say puberty books and it’s like, do you just want something to explain how you get your period, or…? It’s a huge topic. So the other thing I would say is don’t expect any one book to answer everything. Expect to have to keep diving into it. But that gives you a few to to get into and yeah, The Care and Keeping of You. I think we can retire that one. That would be my vote.
Corinne
Alright, I’m going to read the next question.
My daughter is 13 and until she was 10, I was fully immersed in diet culture. I’ve since done a 180 and I’m trying so hard to not regulate what my kids eat, and just offer them options and let them choose. I try to have things I know they like available and I try to talk about food neutrally. Often though, it seems like my daughter is eating to the point of a stomachache several times a week, at least. I wonder if part of that is she often takes very big bites and doesn’t chew them much. Is she getting overly hungry? Does she need a reminder to take smaller bites? These are things I want to bring up with her. There could be something else going on, of course, and there’s so many factors that go into a stomachache, but I don’t know how to have a conversation about it or if I even should, without potentially shaming her or questioning her autonomy. I have been sort of hoping it would just work itself out? Like maybe she would start recognizing it and adjust something. But it seems like feeling sick so often isn’t great. How would you approach this?
Virginia
Okay, so we both read this question and we have a lot of empathy for both you and your daughter. This sounds like you are doing some really hard work to transition out of old mindsets and patterns. You describe it as “I’ve done a 180,” but I think it takes longer for the whole relationship to make that 180. You might really be like 110 or 150 or something. And that’s totally fine. This is just progress. There are a lot of different moving parts that you’re trying to shift.
Corinne
You’re still doing the 180.
Virginia
You are turning and we’re very here for the turning. But yeah, this is a question that kind of left us with a lot of follow-up questions.
Corinne
You don’t say how you know that she has a stomach ache, so I’m curious if she’s telling you that or if it’s something else you’re observing.
Virginia
Where I land on this is: I think at 13 you don’t need to be as involved in the minutiae of how your child eats. If we go back to the Division of Responsibility ethos—which in some ways is not helpful at this point because it sounds like it’s probably not what you were doing when she was younger and by 13, she’s almost aged out of the model. But the theory is that parents are in charge of what food gets offered and when it gets offered, and kids are in charge of what and how much they eat. And I would include under that umbrella, what size bites they take.
Once you’re out of helping a toddler learn the oral motor skills of chewing, you can maybe offer some gentle reminders about table manners. Like I sometimes say things like, “we actually use a fork to eat that spaghetti, not our hands” or “we don’t put feet on the table,” is the thing I’ve had to say recently. But even that, kids really learn that stuff by us modeling more than they learn it by us slapping their feet off the table. I don’t think you being overly involved in the mechanics of how she’s eating is going to be helpful here.
Corinne
I was just thinking how I would feel if I knew that my parent was asking someone if I needed to take smaller bites. It feels like a lot of scrutiny. And I wonder if maybe your kid is picking up on that, too? I would be curious what the 13 year old would say, if you ask them about it. Like, “Why do you think your stomach is hurting?”
Virginia
That’s a really good point. Because we want body autonomy here. She understands her body better than you ever could. What does she think is going on? As you say, stomachs can hurt for a million different reasons. This could be anxiety. This could be completely unrelated to what she’s eating. I do think there is strong diet culture messaging that anytime you have a physical symptom, but particularly a GI symptom, to immediately start looking at how and what you’re eating. I’m getting stomach aches, so I have to give up dairy or gluten. And that’s not usually very productive. Often it can make GI symptoms worse.
I’m also wondering if what you’re observing in terms of taking very big bites—do you mean she’s eating a lot in one sitting? If that is what we’re talking about, remember you don’t decide what a lot is for her. She decides how much she needs to eat. And usually when people are eating what looks like a lot, it’s because they weren’t eating enough at some other point and there’s underlying restriction. This may be a diet-y thing or not. For a lot of 13 year olds, the schedule is so packed during the day at school they barely eat lunch, they don’t have time for snacks. And then they come home and inhale half your kitchen because they’re starving. Because she is growing. She is at an age where she needs massive amounts of calories to fuel puberty.
And I take bigger bites when I’m really hungry, you know? Like, “I gotta get the food in.” And you don’t need to demonize that. You need to look at, is there a way for her to get fed earlier in the day? Or at more regular intervals?
Corinne
Also, if for the first 10 years of her life, the message was to eat less, she’s probably still recovering from that.
Virginia
I think this may be a sign that the repair work is still ongoing. Parents tell me when they start to shift from a diet culture mindset to a more neutral attitude towards food they see kids eating a lot, a lot, a lot of the foods that were off limits in the past. This makes sense because the kids don’t trust it yet. She may feel like there are certain foods she needs to eat a lot of because she’s not sure how long you’re going to stick with this.
I know it has been three years of you doing this work, but we don’t get to pick other people’s timelines on this stuff. That, combined with maybe being more hungry than usual because of a growth spurt or whatever. I think there’s probably a lot going on here. I think it’s probably more useful to ask your daughter what she needs, how can you make food accessible and safe and fun for her? And what other support does she need? What else is she dealing with? God, you couldn’t pay me to be 13 again, so hard.
Corinne
Agreed. It sounds like this person is really trying to do the right thing and probably just struggling with some internal stuff.
Virginia
Yeah. And it makes sense. This stuff is very triggering. You also were ingrained in this pattern of “there’s a problem, look to food to control.” And so that takes some time to stop automatically looking to food to control. But my guess is what you’re seeing in her eating may not be why she’s having stomach aches.
Corinne
Yeah. And I think what we’re also saying is, don’t have a conversation about bite size. Have a conversation! Not about bite size.
Virginia
Yeah. Let her chew food on her own terms.
Corinne
Alright. I’m going to read the next one.
Our family has always aimed to be pretty neutral about food and not demonizing different food groups. Sugar has never been a forbidden food or one you have to earn. But I recently found out that my eight year old has a secret candy stash saved from birthdays, parties and holidays. Should I be concerned? When I saw it with him, I said, “it is totally fun to have a secret candy stash and you don’t have to hide eating candy from us.” My kid is not strong in expressing internal experience so we don’t usually end up having those kinds of deep conversations everyone likes to post about. AKA I have no sense of what is driving the stash and he’s not able to tell me. Should I worry?
Virginia
First, I just want to relate because I also have a child who doesn’t love deep conversations. So I know exactly what you’re feeling. People will be like, “I had this amazing breakthrough moment with my child.” And I’m like I could say all that same things, and I would just get not much back. So yep, some kids are not talkers and we will meet them where they are.
I love her response. It’s totally fine to have a secret candy sash and you don’t have to hide candy. I love it, I think it’s great.
Corinne
I know, that is such a nice response.
Virginia
I think if your house is as food neutral/food positive as you’re describing, this is probably your eight year old just discovering that he can keep stuff in his room. And that’s cool. I had a flashlight under my bed so I could read under the covers at the same age. And for sure I read The Baby-Sitters Club books at that age where Claudia Kishi had candy in her room and it just seemed cool to do it. Maybe this is candy he doesn’t want to share with a sibling, or it’s really fun to eat a treat in your room sometimes.
Corinne
Even if the kid isn’t getting the message from you that sugar is bad, they’re probably getting it somewhere else.
Virginia
Fair point. Fair point.
Corinne
But it sounds like you’re handling it really perfectly.
Virginia
It definitely doesn’t sound like anything you have to rush in on. Let it play out. See what happens. If you’re noticing other food hoarding or scarcity mindset signs around food, then it’s worth investigating a little more thoroughly. Whatever is in his secret candy stash, I would also make sure you have that out in the kitchen in a way that he has very free access to. Make sure that it’s not accidentally off limit. And I don’t even mean you consciously did it. But do you tend to keep the candy on a high shelf in your kitchen? Is that just where it fits? And then you’re like, “oh, wait, that might be perceived as restriction to my kid,” you know?
Corinne
You could probably also just say, like, “Do you want to eat some candy together?”
Virginia
Oh, nice.
Corinne
Do you have a secret candy stash? My mom, I think, had a secret chocolate stash.
Virginia
I do personally. I really like Ghirardelli semi-sweet chocolate chips. We buy them all the time to bake cookies with and the kids will snack on them, but I pretty much always have an extra bag in the top shelf of the fridge where they can’t reach so that I can ensure thatI have the chocolate I need. That’s not a restriction thing. I’ll buy two bags. It’s just it’s a meeting-my-own-needs kind of thing.
Corinne
But maybe this kid sees someone in their life having their own private food stash and wants one for themselves.
Virginia
I feel like this was also the age where I was obsessed with wanting a mini fridge in my bedroom.
Corinne
Thats so funny, that was totally not on my radar.
Virginia
I feel like it was like one of those like TGI Friday sitcoms, like Full House or something. Some cool teenage girl character had a pink fridge in her room and I was like, I want to have a fridge with snacks. It’s like, no you don’t. What are you going to do with that?
Corinne
Make a mess.
Virginia
You’re just trying to feel independent.
Corinne
It seems like the age where you start wanting to like have independent stuff like keeping a secret diary or something.
Virginia
It feels like he’s exploring this idea and just continuing to make sure that these are not foods that he actually can’t access at other times. If you’re concerned about mice or bugs or something, maybe you give him a plastic container that he keeps his secret stash in in his room. That would be my concern.
Corinne
That’s a legitimate concern.
Virginia
Alright, we’re going to do some clothing questions now.
Before transitioning to plus sizes, I mostly shopped in the petite section. Now that I’m in a larger body all the stuff that fits in the bust and waist is so long. I worry about the end of the crop top trend because a 2x cropped sweater is actually the right normal length sweater for me if I cuff up the sleeves, of course. Any suggestions for petite plus folks, either for places that offer petite plus or how to communicate this need to the market?
I mean, I feel this. There’s very little petite plus crossover.
Corinne
I had two thoughts about this. My first one is, sorry, but get a sewing machine or a tailor. It does suck, but also you can shorten stuff somewhat easily.
Virginia
That’s fair.
Corinne
I’ve seen Tiktok sewing tutorials where you can sew the bottom of a sweatshirt so that like the cuff is still there. Anyways, there’s cool things you can do.
Virginia
Okay, but now you have a new hobby.
Corinne
Or you can have a tailor! You can either have a sewing machine or a tailor, choose one. Sorry, I know that’s an obnoxious answer. The petite plus size stuff that I know about is Universal Standard has some petite pants, at least.1 They have shorter inseam jeans.
Virginia
Yes and their short inseam is like, quite short. I’m 5’5.” If I get their 27-inch inseam it fits me like a Capri pant.
Corinne
Oh really!?
Virginia
I’m also proportionately shorter torso/longer legs, so my 5’5” might be different.
Corinne
I’m the same height but I’m long torso/short leg and the 27 inch is perfect on me. And I think the 27 is the regular length.
Virginia
Yeah, it is the regular length.
Corinne
But they also have petite and tall, I think. I know also Big Bud Press has petites now. I haven’t tried them and I think that their petite is more like a regular, but you could check it out. And the other one that I know about is Talbots! I don’t shop there, but I’ve heard that they have plus size petites.
Virginia
Alright, that’s a good one to check out for work basics and what have you.
I do hear this frequently from readers. There’s a plus section, a petite section, and a tall section. God forbid you’re tall and plus or petite and plus, they don’t overlap. I think it totally goes back to all of the Fit Model issues that I reported out in the Jeans Science series. This is a failure of retail that they cannot offer as many customized sizing options as we need.
Corinne
I also think you will find that like certain brands, like Universal Standard, their fit model is just a bit shorter or something. So, shop around.2
Virginia
Okay. This is another sizing issue.
Why are XL and 1XL two different sizes? And why are they so inconsistent across brands?
And I will footnote that and say: Why are XXL And 1X And 2x three different sizes, and which one is XXL? Is it 1x? Or is it 2x?
Corinne
Well, the answer is neither. Sorry.
Virginia
That makes no sense.
Corinne
The answer is just, no.
Virginia
No clothes for you. That is the answer.
Corinne
Bad.
So the answer is, XL is straight size and 1X is plus size and they use different fit patterns.
Virginia
Different fit models, yes.
Corinne
And it just kind of depends on your body which one works better for you. 1x usually will have like, bigger arms.
Virginia
And a bigger bust.
Corinne
Yeah. And XXL is going to be more in the straight size model.
Virginia
XXL is what J Crew is throwing on as their plus size.
Corinne
That’s not plus size, sorry J.Crew.
Virginia
I think J.Crew knows it’s not. But then they also have 2x and 3x. They don’t do 1x. They do XXL In place of 1x.
Corinne
Yeah, that’s when it gets confusing because people just do their own thing.
Virginia
Some brands’ XXL is more like the 2x.
Corinne
Good luck. Good luck! Good luck out there. Check the size chart and buy a measuring tape.
Virginia
We’re tough love today. We’re like, “guys, its fucked.” It’s fucked, I don’t know what to tell you.
Corinne
I mean! It is. I feel like we talk about this all the time. Then some brand starts making stuff and a 5x is a size 18.
Virginia
Correct. Let us be clear that all of these XL, 1XL, XXL questions are the complaints of the mid-size queens.
Corinne
No. I mean, it’s really annoying. But I think when we get into the problem where 5x is a size 18 is when brands go from straight size to plus size without realizing it’s different.
Virginia
They’re doing a very bad job.
Acknowledging that capitalism and advertising suck—I like this question, starting off strong!
I hate that half of the ads I see online are for retailers that don’t carry clothes that fit my body. I spend a decent amount of time just opening the shops for ads I see on Instagram, going to their size chart and checking to see if their bust measurements go up to or higher than my own. And if not, marking the ad irrelevant. I almost wish I could give it my bust measurement and have its fancy algorithm do the filtering. Is there a way to tell these ad services to only show size inclusive retailers?
This person is doing a lot of labor for no benefit.
Corinne
I’m like, “Well, now that you’ve said it, I’m sure it’s coming.” I never freaking open those ads anymore because they never do.
Virginia
I mean one tell is: Don’t open an ad that has a skinny person as the model. I mean unless you’re skinny.
Corinne
But do you actually ever stop getting them?
Virginia
No, you never stop getting them, but if they’re not promising me plus size and using a fat person to do it, I know where we’re going. I already have my dysfunctional relationships with J.Crew and Madewell and Anthropologie. I have my straight size brands that I still go back to despite the years of torment. I don’t need to add Marine Layer or whatever the fuck Instagram brand.
I say this as someone who has just spent a lot of money on Andie Swim and missed the return window, and is real pissed. Real pissed. Anyone who has a super long torso who needs Andie Swim, talk to me.
Corinne
Oh my god, it’s so funny because that you say that because all the Andie Swim stuff is too short for me. I have the longest torso known to mankind.
Virginia
Well, it did not work for me. Also, I accidentally ordered the long torso size which is a real choice, as a short torso person.
Corinne
I’m so jealous of all the short torso people.
Virginia
I mean, I don’t know that it’s easier, Corinne. I am out many hundreds of dollars of Andie swimwear.
Corinne
I know somewhere you can sell it.
Virginia
I was going to say, it’ll be coming to selltradeplus very soon.
Corinne
The ads that always get me are when I see a thin person wearing something like insanely oversized.
Virginia
Oh, god. And then you’re like…
Corinne
Oh, I wonder…
Virginia
Would it fit me? And how would it fit me?
Corinne
And half the time, no. It’s still too small.
Virginia
Absolutely. Yeah, the Instagram ads are terrible. Yeah, capitalism and advertising suck. I think this person answered their own question. We empathize with you.
Corinne
Just wait, I’m sure there will someday be a box you can click for your chest measurement.
Virginia
That honestly is kind of ingenious, I think.
Corinne
Advertise the right size to me. I know.
Virginia
Filter my ads by size. I don’t hate it. I don’t hate it at all.
Corinne
I’d definitely be buying more stuff.
Virginia
Clearly, I already buy too much so maybe I don’t want it, but…
Corinne
It would be taking all the work out of it.
Virginia
Could I return less? That would be cool. I would love to return less. Since we started on resale, I’m going to ask the next question, which is:
Corinne, any hot tips for getting started in resale?
Corinne
My tip for selling stuff on Instagram is take good pictures. I feel like this is the thing that people really struggle with. Because you just want to take a picture of your wrinkled jeans that you just tried on and realized don’t fit anymore. But no one wants you buy those.
Virginia
Like I just want to take a picture of this bag full of Andie Swimwear.
Corinne
All folded up.
Virginia
Stuffed into the plastic sleeves.
Corinne
Like you took them off and they’re just still on the floor.
Virginia
I can’t sell them that way? Okay.
Corinne
Take a good picture. It really helps. Either a flat lay or hanging it up. Natural daylight so you can see the color and if it has any stains or rips or whatever.
Virginia
Good tips.
Corinne
And also provide measurements! Because as we just discussed, sizing is a load of shit.
Virginia
Okay, the last clothing question is”
I love both your personal styles. Would you mind sharing your styles / slash evolution? And do you have style icons?
Corinne
One thing that has changed for me in the past couple of years is I no longer like wearing dresses. I don’t know why, but I don’t.
Virginia
Valid.
Corinne
And I’m always very inspired by clothes that feel functional, like have pockets or protect you from the elements or allow you to move and breathe and have inner organs.
Virginia
Those are great qualities in clothes.
Corinne
I have so many style icons it’s hard to list them all, but I really like Lydia Okello and Matty Matheson. Do you know who that is? He’s a restaurant person. He recently started like a clothing line. He has very cool style, kind of like workwear-y stuff. I haven’t tried his clothes but I’m I’m always meaning to. This is kind of a basic one, but I really like Julie from Rudy Jude. I feel like she always looks cool.
Virginia
Well sure, with the fisherman sweaters and the jeans. That is very your aesthetic.
Corinne
If anyone finds those jeans in my size, let me know.
One person I’ve really been liking recently on Instagram is @Marquimode. They’re a person in a bigger body and they do really cute little dances while they get dressed. Not my style, but just appreciate the whole attitude.
Virginia
You like the vibe.
Corinne
Georgia O’Keefe.
Virginia
Also is very on brand for you. I feel like you’re someone with very clear style. I’m interested that you feel like it has changed.
Corinne
Literally just yesterday I was like, I need to do Dacy’s course.
Virginia
Well, I think we all could benefit from Dacy’s program. But I do feel like you have a very clear aesthetic.
Corinne
Well, thank you.
Virginia
I mostly see your style on Instagram, maybe you’re curating.
Corinne
Yes, it’s not the plain black sweater that I’m wearing right now.
Virginia
I’m wearing an oversized grey sweatshirt dress that’s actually just pajamas. So thats my style today.
Corinne
I feel like you have a very distinctive style, as well.
Virginia
Thank you, I will credit Dacy for that. Working with her over the last year or so has really helped. She really helped me realize that as a kid and a teenager I really loved bright colors and kind of crazy clothes. Definitely Claudia Kishi vibes. And then once I became an adult, I sort of put it away. And then once I moved into a bigger body, even more put it away for a while. And some of that was even less about the size, although there was also like, “oh, now I have to learn how to shop for this body.” But also, I don’t know, like early motherhood. I just lost some of my mojo for it. I wasn’t going to do like heels and uncomfortable things like I did before kids. But I didn’t know what to replace it with for a long time. So there were a few dark years there of just being like, how do people wear clothes? What do we do?
Corinne
That totally makes sense.
Virginia
I feel like when I first started working with her, I was like, I have four Gap tee shirts and I wear them every day.
Corinne
That’s so sad.
Virginia
We can improve your quality of life. Whatever. They’re still good tee shirts.
Corinne
Nothing wrong with a tee shirt!
Virginia
So my style now is fairly tailored but with bright pops of color. I want to be someone who does the really brightly colored maxi dress and I almost always end up feeling like that’s too big of a moment. I like a smaller moment. I don’t mean that about size, I just mean I don’t want to be head-to-toe crazy colors. I like a balance of the neutrals and the crazy color. Style icons? I would say Emma Straub. She is not afraid of a crazy colorful moment and I love her so much for it. I am a recovering Audrey Hepburn person. My teenage years my aesthetic was definitely Audrey Hepburn. I feel like that fucked me up a lot.
Corinne
So funny. I feel like that’s so different from the colorful stuff.
Virginia
Not so much “Breakfast at Tiffany’s.” I don’t know if you ever saw “Two for the Road.” “Two for the Road” is this really wonderful Audrey Hepburn Albert Finney movie. They take these road trips across Europe at different points in their marriage. So you see them falling in love, and then you see them hating each other. It’s amazing 60’s fashion the whole time. There’s like a lot of really great big oversized sunglasses and sequined mini dresses and much more color.
I still kind of love that fashion. I love an oversized sunglasses moment. But that’s a real narrow ideal to hang your hat on. I had to unpack and separate the style from the body. But yeah, she was a really early formative influence. This is fun. I’m trying to think who else I love lately. My sister-in-law, Sara, who nobody here knows but she has really amazing style, is definitely one of my major influences.
Corinne
Another big one for me for a long time, although I feel like I no longer see her but was Amintou Sow from Call Your Girlfriend.
Virginia
Let’s do some miscellaneous questions.
Corinne
What do you make of people who think people are fat because of the food we eat, that big food is partnered with big pharma to keep us sick and medicated? I have a hard time processing this argument because I think there is some truth there. But I’m not sure. I also know at this point saying “just eat unprocessed foods” is a diet. But is it worth advocating for a better food system that makes it easier to get whole foods?
Virginia
So, yes. It is worth advocating for a better food system, not because it’s going to make us thin, but because our current food system is a travesty of human rights violations and taking a major toll on the environment. Those are both issues we should care about and work on improving.
The giant failing of food activism is that they jumped on o*esity prevention or reduction instead of just being like, how about we care about human rights?
Corinne
Right.
Virginia
How about we care about the planet? Sure, let’s work on this stuff. Let’s not talk about that it’s making people fat.
Corinne
They were like, “How can we get people to care about this? Oh, fat phobia.”
Virginia
Right. “Let’s borrow some of that.”
I think there likely is some connection between the way, on population levels, body sizes have increased in the last 40 years and the way that food supplies have changed. There probably is some relationship. However, it is not the entire explanation for those changes. Another explanation that we don’t talk about often enough, is that the last 40 years have also been the war on obesity and diet culture on steroids and people trying to lose weight constantly over and over and over. If you’re going to say that it’s what we’re eating, we have to at least give equal weight, if not more weight, to the fact that we also restrict and do crazy things with food.
Corinne
It could also be how we’re eating or how we’re not eating.
Virginia
Exactly. Like, is it the ultra processed foods? Or is it everybody on Noom? Is it Weight Watchers? It’s not just that we have more processed foods, we also have this entire mindset towards food that’s very dysfunctional, thanks to the diet industry and public health initiatives. So whenever people are like, but what’s changed? I’m like, well, the diet industry has changed. It has gotten a lot more powerful. So that’s a big one.
And it is just not productive to talk about this on an individual level at all. Because individually, why you eat fast food or ultra processed food is like, it’s your own damn choice, right? We have body autonomy. People can feed themselves how they want to feed themselves. There are all these larger, systemic reasons why people might gravitate more towards ultra processed foods that just making us feel bad about it doesn’t fix. And we know intentional weight loss doesn’t work. So it’s kind of a pointless conversation. Thats my rant. Did I miss anything?
Corinne
No, I think that was really good rant. The answer is capitalism.
Virginia
The answer is capitalism. And advertising sucks. And, yeah, care about human rights and environmental issues. These are good things to care about.
Corinne
Whether people are fat or not.
Virginia
Alright, I will read the next one.
I am a thin young millennial woman and I teach sewing garment classes for adults. My students are primarily Boomer women of varying sizes. When making garments for themselves, there are usually fatphobic comments made about their bodies. How do I shift away from or actively discouraged body shaming and fat talk while not discounting their lived experiences that I don’t share. It’s also worth noting, I teach in sewing stores owned by Boomer women who share these beliefs, so I can’t exactly put up body positive neutral posters or something, as much as I’d like to. I don’t think these women have ever encountered the anti-fatphobic, body neutral/positive movements. I’d love responses to ‘I can’t make or wear that because x’ or ‘I need to lose weight.’
Corinne
Okay, I’m excited to talk about this because I feel like I have an answer. I have this answer because last weekend I went on that Unlikely Hikers hike and at the beginning Jenny just set a boundary that was we’re not going to talk negatively about our bodies.
Virginia
That’s so perfect.
Corinne
I feel like that is the perfect thing for you to do. Just start each class by saying, “here are the ground rules. One of my rules is we don’t talk negatively about our bodies.” I feel like that could really just set the tone and give them your perspective on it. You don’t have to be mean about it, but I think it’s so easy to set a boundary and let people know where you stand.
Virginia
I absolutely love that. And I also think that the whole beauty of sewing garments is that you can make things custom to people’s bodies. So maybe rather than attacking their comments head on, just infusing more discussion of that into your class. Like, this is so great that any body can wear this.
I remember my sister-in-law, Sara, telling me she had a jumpsuit made for her by a tailor one time. She was like, “I never thought I could wear a jumpsuit and it turns out it absolutely can. I just needed it adjusted to my body type.” And like, how liberating and powerful that was.
So I feel like what you’re doing is so great because it’s actually giving these folks the opportunity to realize that they don’t need to be limited by “oh can’t wear X.” This is the this is the answer to petite plus from the earlier question. This is what will save you. And there are so many fat positive sewing communities out there. So if you’re not already following those folks, I bet a bunch of them will chime in in the comments because many listeners that are part of that. You’re really immersing yourself in that world and then you can bring some of that back into your classes with the Boomers.
Corinne
Yeah, I can’t believe I haven’t mentioned this, but a few weeks ago, I sewed myself some underwear using a Muna and Broad pattern, and it’s amazing. I recommend it. Definitely follow them.
Virginia
Number one, we now need a whole other episode to discuss that.
Corinne
I can’t believe it hasn’t come up.
Virginia
It’s the next thing you’re writing about for Burnt Toast. We need to know everything.
Alright, last question.
Corinne
I would love to hear your thoughts on being mistaken for pregnant or not pregnant.
Virginia
Because I have been both many, many times.
Corinne
Mistaken for not pregnant?
Virginia
When I was pregnant, I never looked pregnant enough.
Corinne
Oh, I get it. I get it. Oh, that’s funny.
Virginia
I was mistaken for pregnant constantly until I got pregnant and then people are always like, “really, you’re pregnant?” Because I was just fat and I didn’t look really pregnant. But here’s what I will say about mistaken for pregnant: It doesn’t happen to me anymore. Because now I’m just fat. It happens if you’re straight sized and carry your weight in your middle.
Corinne
Oh, that’s so funny because I was like, I think there’s maybe one time when I was on public transportation and someone stood up for me. And I was like, do they think I’m pregnant? But that has never happened to me.
Virginia
No, it happens to apple shaped—I hate that term—but apple shaped, straight size women. Mid-sized queens, not to call this person a mid-size queen. This is the plight of the abnormally large ribcage.
Corinne
Oh my god, so funny.
Virginia
Look, and I want to be clear: It stressed me out a lot because it did happen to me quite a lot at a point in my life when I thought I was going to be dealing with infertility. That was not super fun. And it’s just invasive. It’s so invasive when someone comments on your body. And people have very weird and awkward reactions about it. It’s like a whole thing! I can link to things I’ve written about this issue. Anyone that it has happened to, has very strong feelings about it for a variety of reasons. But the bottom line is, you should react in whatever way you want to react. And if it makes the other person uncomfortable, then good. Because they said something invasive about your body. And that’s on them to sort out. So, I would often just say, “No, I’m not pregnant. I’m just fat,” and just leave it at that.
Corinne
What a nightmare.
Virginia
But then they’ll say, “No, you’re not fat!” And I’d be like, Yeah, I am. Its okay. Thats all it is. It’s just one of those super awkward things, but it can be really painful. Like if you’re dealing with infertility or...
Corinne
Yeah, I would definitely not like to be asked that.
Virginia
No, it’s terrible. It’s terrible. And it’s equally terrible to be pregnant and be excited about it and have people say, like, “Oh, you don’t look pregnant,” like you feel really erased. So it’s a miserable one.
Corinne
Just a reminder, to all the listeners who don’t need to hear this, let’s never do this.
Virginia
Don’t talk about people’s bodies. Always a good rule.
Butter
Virginia
Should we do butter?
Corinne
Yeah. What’s your butter?
Virginia
My butter is I just rewatched “Thelma and Louise.” And it not only holds up, but it is better than I remember it being when I was 10 or whatever I was when I saw it. Have you ever seen it?
Corinne
Yes. Yeah, I have seen it. And it is good.
Virginia
Geena Davis and Susan Sarandon. They’re on a weekend away from her abusive husband and then they end up shooting a guy in a parking lot because he tries to rape Geena Davis, and then they go on the lam. There are many car chases and there are many terrible men and there’s Brad Pitt just like, not even trying to act, just like fell onto that movie set. But he’s there, young Brad Pitt.
And talk about style icons! There’s some really great road trip style. Like 80s/90s/early 90s hair and jeans and whatnot. And I just cried so many times. It’s this beautiful story that totally centers their friendship and her escaping this terrible marriage and then when they drive off the cliff at the end. They kiss and drive off the cliff at the end it’s like it’s a really good—I was going to say comfort watch and then I was like, it’s pretty violent and does end in a blaze of glory.
Corinne
Nostalgia watch, maybe?
Virginia
It’s a great watch. I watched it while doing a puzzle called Jane Austen’s Book Club and I think I reached peak Virginia that evening. I was the most me I’ve ever been.
Corinne
I mean, sounds amazing.
Virginia
What about you?
Corinne
I want to recommend this documentary called “All That Breathes.” Have you watched it?
Virginia
No.
Corinne
It’s a documentary about these brothers who lives in India and are trying to confront the fact that these birds called kites that live in Delhi are like falling out of the sky. So they create a kite rescue hospital. It’s just very beautiful.
Virginia
It sounds really moving.
Corinne
Yeah, it’s cool. Kind of a slow, quiet movie. You probably need to pick the right day to watch it, but it’s good.
Virginia
Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast!
Corinne
If you’d like to support the show, please subscribe for free to your podcast player and leave us a rating or review. These really help folks find the show.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by me, Virginia Sole-Smith. You can follow me on Instagram or Twitter.
Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting independent anti diet journalism. I’ll talk to you soon.
They also have tops, it turns out!
Some other brands that have Plus Petites: Lane Bryant, Catherines, Land’s End.