Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast

In this week's episode, we explore the fascinating world of the human brain and its impact on stress management, parenting, and relationships. We had the privilege of inviting Dr. Alison Roy, a licensed clinical psychologist, and a bona fide brain enthusiast. I first heard Dr. Roy speak during the pandemic, and her insights on the brain, trauma, stress, and parenting were truly impactful.In our conversation, Dr. Roy sheds light on the science behind our reactions to stress and provides practical advice on how to maintain control and leverage our executive function skills—the skills governed by the pre-frontal cortex, a term you've probably heard me mention quite often. The aim? To improve and maintain our relationships, make parenting a bit easier, and in general, navigate life with a better understanding of our own minds.I urge you to listen to this episode, even if you're not a parent or caregiver. Much of the advice that Dr. Roy shares is universally applicable, and her passion for educating others about the brain is truly infectious. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I relished being a part of it.Here are some relevant resources related to the conversation:Dan Siegel’s Bookshttps://drdansiegel.com/books/Hand Model of the Brain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-m2YcdMdFwPolyvagal theory in practicehttps://ct.counseling.org/2016/06/polyvagal-theory-practice/YouTube Video of Dr. Stephen Porges explaining the polyvagal theoryhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec3AUMDjtKQMaslow’s hierarchy of needshttps://www.thoughtco.com/maslows-hierarchy-of-needs-4582571Dr. Alison Roy’s websitewww.dralisonroy.comSlides from Dr. Roy's Presentationhttps://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pk9stUBGV0L0X4ES6Csb5_BXTjbGndfZBeyond BookSmarthttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Yay, I am so excited to bring you today's show. As a parent and an official member of the brain nerd club, I am totally geeking out about my guest, Dr. Allison Roy. Allison is a licensed clinical psychologist, and she loves the brain and teaching people about it even more than I do. I first heard her speak during the pandemic, and her presentations on the brain and trauma and stress and parenting were just exactly what I needed at that time. And I still use what I learned from her even today, when I had the opportunity to see her speak again recently, I knew I had to get her on Focus Forward so you all could listen and learn from her, too. In our conversation about stress and how our brains are impacted by it, Allison shared some really practical things that we can do to manage that stress and stay in our thinking brains, you know that prefrontal cortex, you've heard me mention, oh, a billion times. This way, we can use our executive function skills to improve and maintain our relationships with the people in our families, and make parenting a little easier. If you're not a parent, or a caregiver of kiddos, I encourage you to listen anyway, especially to the first part, most of the advice that Allison shares really does apply to all of us. I truly hope you enjoy this conversation, as much as I enjoyed being a part of it. Now on to the show. Hannah Choi 01:55Hi, Alison, thank you so much for coming today, to talk with me about the brain, and parenting and executive function skills. I am just going to share with the listeners a little bit about how I met you. I during the pandemic you gave some presentations, virtual presentations through our public school system. And I'm not kidding when I say that those presentations and the way that you presented it made just like a massive difference for me and my family during the pandemic and actually get emotional when I think about it. Because like that was such a difficult time. But learning, learning about the brain and learning about what some actual, like real things that I could do that would make a difference made such a difference. And it also really informed my coaching. And it just informed my, my I already really loved the brain. So it just like reinforced that. So thank you so much for that. Yeah. And then we were reconnected recently when you spoke again, at our for our parent presentation. And again in our school systems, which was excellent. And so thank you so much for coming on the podcast,Dr. Alison Roy 03:09Of course, I'm really excited to be here. And it's so fun to be able to do stuff virtually. When you're not, you know, I'm in New Hampshire. And it's not always, you know, right down the road. So it's nice to be able to connect to different places and areas of the world. It's one thing that pandemic gave us.Hannah Choi 03:26Yes, yes. Yep. And it's amazing. You can still have such an impact on someone's life even virtually so. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so would you introduce yourselves to listeners and explain a little bit about your background?Dr. Alison Roy 03:43Yeah, so my name is Dr. Alison Roy. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of New Hampshire. I'm located in Exeter, New Hampshire, which is right on the seacoast area of New Hampshire. And I've been a psychologist for about two decades now. And I've practiced all over the world, I've had really cool opportunity to live in Europe and live in Asia and learn a lot and see a lot and experience a lot as a psychologist but also as a mom and as a family. So to my kids were born overseas. And so it's been a really fun adventure to kind of just see the world and learn a lot about human brains everywhere. As Hannah said, I'm a total brain nerd. I love understanding the neuro psychology or neurobiology of what's going on. When we're having real life experiences. It's validating to know that there's really things happening in our brain as to why we're feeling or thinking or doing in that moment. I specialize actually in post traumatic stress disorder and trauma. And that's how I got called upon quite a bit during the pandemic because we were all kind of going through something it was the first time we could really say that we were had a global trauma or stressful event and so a lot of districts, school districts did right by the parents. In our district and invited experts in to talk about why this was really hard. And it continues to be hard. We're all still healing from those couple of years. So I'm excited to come on today and talk about what that might look like in your own home. And hopefully it's validating and acknowledges, you know, some of what you experience every day. And and yeah, we'll do a little little brain learning together, too. Hannah Choi 05:22Cool. Thank you. Yeah, that validation piece was really important. For me when you gave that presentation, it made me feel better about like, why am I feeling this way? Oh, okay. It made a lot more sense. And I felt like, yeah, and then I felt like I could forgive myself a little bit, which, which felt really good. Dr. Alison Roy 05:40So good. Good. Like I said, so I'm a parent, too so I get it. I get it. I have three little guys. So yeah,Hannah Choi 05:46Yes, yes, you do get it. Yeah. So I would love for you to kind of just maybe even just do the same presentation that you did before. Because even though I knew a lot of what you shared, just hearing it, there's something about the way that you present all the information that just makes it really accessible and understandable. So would you share with our listeners, what you've taught, so many people about the brain and stress and how to manage it all. Dr. Alison Roy 06:18iI would love to. It's my favorite thing, to talk about the brain, I'm gonna pull up some slides, just mostly, as I was, you know, we were chatting before we got on today and started recording, I really just need help staying on track, actually, so. So it's helpful for me to have some slides to look at, so that I stay focused.Hannah Choi 06:39So I will, before you start, I just want to say that I will share these graphics in the show notes for anyone who's listening. So you can look along if you'd like.Dr. Alison Roy 06:49Absolutely, yeah, there's not gonna be there's gonna be three slides, I think three or four, maybe that will be good to kind of check out so. But I'll do my best to make it feel like you're looking at something even if you're just listening to us today. So so let's talk about this human brain of ours, and what happens when we experience stressful events. And these stressful events can come in a variety of ways. So certainly, you'll hear me talk about, alright, this is really what we're going to talk about today is that fight, flight, or freeze reaction that we have. And so we think about this a lot when we think about life threatening situations. So I always use the universally scary situation for all of us of being chased by a bear because I feel like I don't know if there's a human on this planet that would find that to be intimidating. So if you're being chased by a bear, you want this system to kick in and save your life. However, which is great, right, we have this great human system to do that, for us to to save our lives. However, your human brain does that reaction that fight flight or freeze reaction for many different reasons. And it could be that in a singular moment, you've something alerts your brain, and we're going to talk about how that would all the things that happen in that millisecond in your brain allows your brain to think, Oh, this is a life or death situation, when it's not actually and you have that reaction, your brain can also be pushed into that fight flight or freeze mode very gradually. So I call it the slow build or the fast punch. So it can happen in a fast punch type of way, like being chased by a bear or having a in the moment reaction. Or it could be that slow build, where you're you've had a stressful week. And just one more thing happens and you feel like you kind of fly off the handle or go into that fight flight or freeze mode. So again, this this part of our brain is is really amazing. And we want it to work because it saves our lives, it just can be a little frustrating when it's a really active system that fight flight or freeze systems activating a lot or too much. And we're being pushed into this red brain zone that we're going to talk about in a minute. So let's talk about these three zones. If you're a listen to this podcast regularly, you know a lot about that green zone up there, that executive functioning zone, that frontal lobe, that's where all of our beautiful executive functions are housed. And we only have access to our whole, all the colors of the brain, when we're at rest and digest. We call it rest and digest when we're at rest, when we're not stressed or not thinking of a million things or running around or doing a bunch of errands or you know have a project do at work and all the all the things are happening. So when we're when we're at rest, we have access to our full brain. So in other words, you don't need to have a diagnosis of ADHD in order to have the frontal lobe part of your brain be impacted and have a difficult time with some error executive functions. Because stress stress interferes with your ability to really access those at their full potential. So that's the green part of the brain as the first part of the brain that comes offline when we start to become stressed unfortunately. So the next part of the brain next part down is called the kind of the blue brain or the emotional brain. This part of the brain is all All about feeling, not about rational thoughts. So I like to call this part of the brain, the toddler section of the brain, about a toddler, right? They're all about big, big emotions, zero rational or logical thoughts. So that's really what the Blue Brain is all about, and needs the green brain in order to have that more rational or logical thought process. So when that green brain comes off line, you're left with a lot of emotions. And those emotions dictate your fight flight or freeze mode. And as you can probably imagine, if you're not connected to ration or logic, and you start to have an experience that might be overwhelming that emotion can overwhelm you and send you into that fight flight or freeze mode pretty easily. And then there's the red brain, the red brain is our survival brain, our reptilian brain, you've probably heard it called these things. Its sole job and purpose is to keep us alive. And so again, really cool part of the brain, really frustrating when it's in the driver's seat too much. And so what that part of the brain is engineered to do is be in control of our heart rate, our respiration, our blood pressure, our sleep wake cycles in our satiation queues, whether we're hungry or thirsty. And that's it. So as you can probably imagine, you've heard this used before, right? Like I can't even think about tomorrow, I just have to get through today. This is the kind of language we use when we're in that red brain, or we're just not hungry. Because we're just so focused or so stressed on getting through that part of the day. Dr. Alison Roy 11:33And so the red brain, when it takes over really only wants you to focus on those kind of survival functions, it doesn't want you to focus on doing math or being organized, or quite frankly, having empathy or compassion for others. So you can see how when you think about how you are as a human, when you're really stressed, we're not our best selves. And so we when we get pushed down into that red brain, that's the reason why that happens. So let's take a deeper look at how that happens. It's not something that we have control over, and nor do we want to have control over it. Because again, we want this to be the most instant automatic function that we have, because it's survival based. And so again, if a bear pops out of the woods, when you're hiking, you want to not think at all about your pot, you know, what you could do to get away you want your body to kind of react naturally. And hopefully, you freeze, right running away, or fighting a bear is not the option that your body wants you. And we're going to learn that we can go either way fight or flight or freeze, and that we all have the ability to go either way it as I'm talking a minute, I'm going to talk about those two kind of options, and what they look like in real life. And you can think about yourself or your spouse or partner your own children and kind of think about where they might fall, because some of us tend to have an automatic stress response of either fight or flight or freeze. But we have the ability to go either way. And sometimes it's dependent on the stimulus or what's happening in our environment that pushes us into that red brain. Okay, so when our amygdala, which is a very tiny structure is a tiny but mighty, very tiny structure in our brain that is working constantly. It works about three to 10 times a second, if you've never experienced any traumatic event, if you have any sort of traumatic event in your history, or you're just having a really stressful week, your amygdala is hyperactive hypersensitive, so it can be up to a scanning the room that you're in up to 100 times a second, so very, very active. So it's, it's like a smoke alarm or smoke detector. So its job is to scan your environment and decide if anything in that environment is scary, upsetting, worrisome, overwhelming, uncertain, even, like exciting. So even really positive over like big emotions can cause this amygdala to react. And the amygdala gets all its information to make this decision from your five senses. So it's use very, very connected to your five senses, meaning it uses smell, it uses temperature, sense of touch, temperature, sensing, Sight, Sound, so I like to give the example of one time I was I was talking about this with I work a lot with educators. I was sitting in a room with educated with a group of educators. And we all I'm, I'm quite literally talking about this slide and the smell of gas started coming into the room. And so you can see all the rooms kind of gets a little wide eyed and let's start looking around. That's your amygdala kind of going, um, something's going on here and like smell the gas and I know that means that this could potentially be a bad situation. So again, it's are five senses that tip off the amygdala. And have it kind of sound the alarm for lack of better words in our brain. And a cascade of actions and reactions happen very quickly. So again, this activates very quickly, you can think about when you get really upset, I was talking the other day about, when I get really upset, or my kids get really upset, we're a family of Door-slammers. So we'll kind of stomp off and slam the door. And of course, if you had rational, logical thought happening, you would know not to slam the door. But in that moment, that's the way your body's releasing that reaction. So that this cascade of actions and reactions start happening. So the amygdala says, "Oops, something's going on". It shuts down the green brain, and most of the Blue Brain, it kind of stops, I've seen the brain scans is stopped sending neuronal activity there. So those areas of the brain, when you look at like an fMRI or an MRI, you can see that the areas of the brain where there's neuronal activity happening, it's all colored, it's all lit up. And when this happens, it goes completely dark. So we kind of shoot go right down into this red brain. Because our brain is saying, I need to survive, right now I need to spend all my energy, all my neuronal activity, just within this red brain of focus in this very moment on survival. So green brain and Blue Brain mostly kind of shut down activity. Also, our left side of our brain goes completely offline as well. And the left side of the brain is where all the else so if you've ever read anything I learned with Dan Siegel at all, he's a great, he's a great person to look up and kind of explore a little bit, the whole brain child is his book. It's one of his books, he has many by great parenting books. But he talks about all the ELLs are all housed on the left side of the brain language, linear logic, all these beautiful ELLs while you lose them all when you go into the stress mode. And so you lose your words, you can't put good sentences together, you can't have a good linear sense of time. So you're kind of mental timeline gets all messed up. And so, so all of this is, believe it or not, all of this has happening in that moment, when you start to become stressed. Your memory processes also shifts. So the way we remember things shifts very much to our five senses. And that's where we get kind of trauma triggers from as our brain latches on to those five senses. In that moment, it doesn't remember things with language, because the language centers aren't accessible. And we lose our words, like I said, we lose our ability to have language in that moment, and certainly, this is one of my favorites, ways of looking at all this beautiful executive functions. So all of what you're seeing on this screen is all of the executive functions list. So impulse control, be able to take turns focus, concentrate, attend, have perspective, taking have empathy, all of that is, is beautiful, and a beautiful part of our human brain will all of it goes out the window when we start to go down into this read brain. And so as you can probably imagine, as an adult, you know, you know this, we have a fully developed frontal lobe by about 25 ish. And so we have the best frontal lobe we could possibly have. So when we lose a lot of this in a stressful moment, we still have more capacity than a child does. Because a kiddo doesn't have that fully developed frontal lobe yet. And so when they go into stress brain, we really see some big reactions with very little logic or rational thinking. And they tend to go on much longer, think epic temper tantrums, because they don't have this ability to access any sort of frontal lobe functions. Okay, so last little part I'll talk about today. And maybe one more slide. But this this is, so this is not my image. But you can see that the website that's on there, they have some great information as well around mental health and just they have these graphics that they produce, to be able to help people be able to talk about this stuff more, they just want to promote people talking about it, which is great. And so what I like about this is it shows in real life, and I'm going to talk about this what it looks like when we're having that red brain reaction that fight flight or freeze reaction. And this is based on the polyvagal theory of the stress response system. And that's Porges' theory. And again, if you Google polyvagal theory, you'll come up with lots of really fascinating information. There's volumes and volumes written about it. And it's my favorite way of kind of thinking about or talking about the stress response because I feel like to me when the first time I learned this, it was so incredibly validating because it just made the neuroscience make sense for real light. Yeah. So let's look at this for a second. So In the middle, this, the person you see in the middle is at rest and digest, meaning there is no alarm bells going off with the amygdala, all parts of the brain are online. And she's quite literally at rest and digest, which means she looks happy or relaxed. She looks happy. Yeah, this is what we want to be at, right? This is where I would hope we would spend most of our time. So you know, she's able to have a heart rate, that's nice and even blood pressure's in good shape, respiratory systems in good shape. And she's quite literally able to digest her food, actually heard a really interesting NPR story, just coming out of the pandemic. So probably late last year, when they were talking, they're interviewing primary care doctors who said they were prescribing and acids or digestive aids at like a very high rate. And it's makes sense because we spent so much time being stressed our digestive systems, one of the first systems that will be implicated in that. So we can't digest our food if we're not if everything else isn't at rest. And so it is going to see if you have heartburn, indigestion, belly aches, tummy aches, and we hear this a lot from our kids when they're stressed. It makes perfect sense because the digestive system gets very complicated.Hannah Choi 21:17I remember when I was in graduate school, I had really bad acid reflux. And now I know.Dr. Alison Roy 21:23Yes. Oh, absolutely. And terrible sleep patterns. Probably. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The two biggest disrupted system. So yeah, yep. And they're always my biggest red flag. So I always when a family comes to me, I do a lot of work. So I have a private practice as well. I do a lot of work with adolescents and young people and their families, I do a lot of family work. And that's one of the things I asked first about what are your sleep patterns, like what are eating patterns like, because often I can find a lot of clues within there, that the family system might be stressed. So if we're not at rest and digest, and we've seen over the past several years with what we've all been through, with a pandemic, and everything that has brought with it, that this window of rest and digest should be about here, and it's been it's shrunk, it's a little bit smaller for all of us, because we've just spent so much time being stressed. The beautiful part about the human brain, which you probably also know if you're a brain geek, like me is the human brain has neuroplasticity. So just because it's shrunk over the past couple of years doesn't mean we can't expand it as well. So that's good. That's a really great part. Yeah, it's a really beautiful part, you just have to work on it. And we're going to talk about so I'm on the left hand side, you see what looks like this same character in the middle who's at rest and digest has now been pushed into what we call hyper arousal, which is fight or flight. So you can see her kind of running away from the situation, which is a lot of our reactions. When we get really stressed either we physically run away, or we feel like I don't know if you've ever had that feeling where your body feels so agitated, like you just want to get out of the situation. Or yeah, yes. Or it comes out in aggression of some kind. Not all of us don't slam doors, like maybe my family does, but you feel like your fists might be clenching up, you feel your body tense up. So that is because in that hyper arousal fight or flight mode, we're producing so much adrenaline and cortisol, that our body to quite literally get ready to run away or fight something off. Our body doesn't really know what to do with that. And that produces certain symptoms, like irritability, anger, frustration, crying, again, stopping slamming doors, yelling, screaming, crying tantruming. So any of those over the top kind of emotional reactions, that's hyper arousal. Now I'm sure there's some of you out there going right now. Oh, yeah, no, that's me. I definitely do that. Just hyper aroused, stressed person. So if that resonates with you, that is real, and there's a reason why that's happening. So, or if that resonates for your kiddos, if you have a kiddo that becomes very overly emotional when they're upset as well, that that hyper arousal reaction. Now on the other side of the screen is our character kind of curled in a ball, head down, looking pretty sad or withdrawn. This is hypo arousal or freeze mode. So freeze doesn't always mean quite literally freeze, it means your body is shutting down in order to survive by reserving all of its resources. So your blood pressure is going to drop very, very low, your heart rates going to actually slow down, your breathing is going to slow down because your body's preparing to survive in a very different way. And so that's what we're seeing here and this looks very similar to depression. It looks like we don't want to engage with others, we want to kind of shut the world out, we want to just kind of go to sleep or sleeping in too much sleeping is often a sign of a stress response. So shutting down in that way, or I do see, especially some of my high achieving adolescents that I work with. And also we do this as adults a lot is what we call fawning or robotic compliance, where we're just like, everything's fine. I'm totally fine, everything's fine as one of our legs is quite literally on fire. So. So we do that, too. We try to avoid the stress and pretend like it's not happening, but then it almost always bubbles over in some way. So this is a polyvagal theory. So check it out, get some more information about it. I do really like it. And it makes sense to me. Okay, last slide. Like I promised, I just wanted to highlight. Again, if you're having some sort of stress in your life, some overwhelming stress in your life, there's systems that are most impacted by stress, our sleep, eating and digestion. So if you start to see disruptions in any of those areas, so sleep, having a hard time staying asleep, falling asleep, having nighttime disturbances, like nightmares, or night terrors, or sleeping too much. Usually, it's to avoid that might be a sign of stress eating, we either eat too much, because we're trying to sell suit or make ourselves feel better with food, or we're not eating enough because we're not attending to those social social cues that you didn't get the eating cues, association cues. Also, I just read a really interesting study about "hangriness". I don't know if anyone gets hangry. Yeah, I do. And so my kiddos, well, there's a good reason for that our cortisol levels are inversely related to how full or hungry we are. So we get really hungry. Our cortisol levels skyrocket. And so it's all about glucose and cortisol levels. And so there's a real again, a real reason why we get hangry.Hannah Choi 27:04That's also validating, to hear Yeah, right.Dr. Alison Roy 27:08Not crazy. There's reason why I get hangry. So bring snacks always bring snacks, and then digestion. And so if you have a kiddo, or yourself who's got some tummy troubles going on, you just always feel like you've got an upset stomach, even we feel this in very small amounts, if we're going to give a presentation or we have something that we're quite anxious or nervous for, right, we get that butterflies in our stomach. So all of this just kind of combined, is I find it validating. It makes me feel like okay, there's real stuff going on, when we start to become really stressed and go into that stress mode. So, yeah,Hannah Choi 27:44Great, thank you. I feel like something that I just have noticed in my life. And just everything that I hear from people is I feel like people talk sort of peripherally about sleep and make sure you sleep enough, make sure you eat enough, make sure you know, you're exercising or whatever. But but it almost feels like it's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, I know. But it's true. You really do need to, it's that conversation. I feel like needs to be taken more seriously. Or something. We need to change the message somehow this is not just Yeah, yeah, thing like, need to, like really address it.Dr. Alison Roy 28:25Yeah. And if you think about if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs another really great accessible thing to Google will really resonate with a lot of listeners, I bet. But Maslow's hierarchy of needs is all about how do you achieve your full greatness, essentially, and you have to start the bottom part of the triangle, the bottom part of that triangle, the first step to achieving greatness is taking care of the most basic of needs. And if you don't do that, you can't move up the ladder. And so there is very good solid research decades and decades of research around sleep and eating and just the basic needs needing to be taken care of because our brain needs rest in order to have that ability to have neuroplasticity and grow and change.Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah, yeah. Yep. Great. So how is so how does so can you give some examples of like in someone's household, like how this kind of stress might impact everybody? Yeah, parents down to kids.Dr. Alison Roy 29:26Yeah. Yeah. So I always think about, you know, I, so I, I work a lot with the director of psychiatry at Dartmouth, and he and I have become really good friends and I have a really tough situation I'm working through I often call him and I did that for one of the families I was working with. I said, I just need some help. I need some strategies on what to do next. And he's said, sounds like you've got a polyvagal storm happening in that family. And I loved that concept of that image of that poly vagal reaction. I was just describing fight flight or freeze, if you're all having it individually as a family, you're all going to be having it as a family unit. And because our brains do play off each other. So there's lots of really good research out there about mirror neurons, which are also part of our frontal lobe. And our mirror neurons talk to other human brains, especially ones that we're very connected to. So our family members, all of our mirror neurons are very, very connected. And so when we start to get stressed, meaning us as parents, our kids brains are going to automatically respond to that. And it's crazy, if you were to, if you were to spend a lot of time being stressed as parents, and you looked at your cortisol levels, and even though your kids are experiencing that stressor, maybe it's a stressor at work, or you know, it's adult stuff that your kids aren't necessarily aware of, but there's cortisol levels are going to rise to meet yours. So our brains are very interconnected in that way and can play off each other stress wise. So it is important, we as parents are guilty of not taking care of ourselves very well sometimes. But if I can, yeah, it's hard if I can get you to buy into doing some self care for for you, but also for your kiddos, because the more you stay regulated, the more likely they're also going to be regulated. And you won't get caught up in that polyvagal storm.Hannah Choi 31:26Yeah, I remember that so much. Especially when my kids were younger. I I just remember thinking like, oh, yeah, this is we're all we're all like feeding off of each other right now. Nobody is helping anybody right now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I remember one particular moment, right after my son was born. So now. So at this point, I have like, maybe like a month old baby, and then a three year old and then me. And then my husband was working from home. And he came up from his basement office, and the three of us were sitting on the couch crying. He was like, oh, no, what happened? And I knew what happened. Yeah. We all I'm sure needed a snack. Dr. Alison Roy 32:09Yeah, and probably a nap. So yeah, we started there, or you're probably tired, or you're probably hungry. SoHannah Choi 32:17Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a strategy that we teach our clients that you maybe you've even heard of, because I don't think we came up with it. HALT stands for like hungry, angry or anxious, Lonely or Tired. And it's such a good thing to check in, check in on.Dr. Alison Roy 32:32Yeah, and one of the, one of the ways so we've we've already talked about a couple of the ways to stop this polyvagal response from happening in his tracks, is to, you know, figure out basic needs or there's some sort of basic need, because if you're hungry, if you're tired, you will trigger that red brain response. Whether even if like your amygdala picks up on nothing else in the environment. Unfortunately, your amygdala also picks up on internal cues. So even if you're thinking about something that's stressful, your amygdala will also pick up on that. So even if the environment around you is as calm as can be. So um, so yeah, we always talk about that strategy. But also, you know, if you're like, Okay, well know that they've gotten enough sleep. And we don't need a snack right now, we just had a snack connection, human connection. So let's fix that loneliness, like you just said, is actually the number one way to decrease that red brain response. Because if you remember the Blue Brain, you've got partial Blue Brain online, when you're even when you're in that red brain response. And that that Blue Brain is looking for MI loved. And if you're able to connect with someone, and it doesn't have to be very long research shows it has to be even 30 seconds of connection. So a hug, can can calm that red brain or at least bring a little bit more of the blue and green brain back online.Hannah Choi 33:56I remember learning about that. Like she called it a 20-second hug in the book "Burnout". Yeah, yeah. And as one way to, like close that stress loop. And so the other day, my son had a really stressful morning before school, and, and he was really having a hard time. And I was like, You need a 20-second hug. Come here. Yeah, I was like, Mom, I don't have time for a 20-second Hug. Dude, you need it. So, I scooped him up. I'm like, Just relax into me for 20 seconds. I think we lasted maybe 10 seconds.Dr. Alison Roy 34:30I think that's funny. So two thoughts about that. One is parents always asked me but what if they're not wanting a hug in that moment, and I and I get that I've been there. I don't have teenagers yet. But I can imagine with teenagers that's particularly hard. So sometimes I say to him, I said, Do you need a hug to my own kids? And they'll say no. And sometimes I'll say, well, I need one. And that's not untrue. Actually, there's a lot of times where we're having some sort of stress response together and I could use a hug as well. And that'll Almost always loops almost always get them so. But the other thing I wanted to say about that is I taught from the book "Burnout" for several years. And I love that book. I love that. It speaks our language, right of like the brain's response to burnout. And someone came back to me and said, you know, you talked about the 20-second Hug. And my husband and I have now decided when we get an argument, we're going to stop and do a 20-second hug and then continue the argument. And she said, It works every time to do that's awesome. It's super awkward because it's, if you actually time 20 seconds, it's a long time to be so funny. I was like, That's a great story. I love it.Hannah Choi 35:41I love that. Yeah. It's funny. That's, that's, that's great advice. And I actually learned that a long time ago when my daughter was one I was at I was in a mom's group and someone in the moms' group brought an astrologist to the moms' group. And she just did like little mini readings on all of our kids. And she told me, she said, you're Yeah, it was very cool. She said, Your daughter is not going to be a hugger. But she's going to need hugs. So you're gonna have to tell her that you need a hug in order to get her to get the hugs that she needs. So I've always used that for her. Dr. Alison Roy 36:21Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And 'cause some people aren't naturally that way. Yeah.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah. And that reminds me of the article that we talked a little bit about the last time you presented that, or in the New York Times article, where the teacher I think, asked, "Do you need to be hugged, heard or helped?" And, and I love that, and I love that she said that she finds that most people just want to be hugged. Which which shows, yeah, you do need that physical touch.Dr. Alison Roy 36:50Right? Yeah. So most people in that I think what happens when we become stressed is or when we see a loved one being stressed. So as a parent, especially I find this when our kiddos are stressed or upset or frustrated, or whatever that big powerful emotion is. It's hard for us to tolerate that distress because we love them. And we don't want to see them hurting. And also, it's upsetting to us. So we start to have reaction that we don't like, either. So it's really hard to watch that. And so what we typically end up doing, I think I talked about this is trying to fix, because our heap, that's what our human brain does, our human brains are problem solving machines. And so they like to be able to solve the problem and move on. But as we know, most problems aren't solvable. And so when we need come up against something that's not solvable, or that's uncertain, or doesn't have any answer, it does send that secondary brain red brain reaction. And so, as parents, it's hard to pull it back and go to that. Do you need a hug? Do you need to be heard? Or do you need to be helped? Because we jumped to the helped part. And a lot of the times when we're upset, we're not ready to be helped. And I think I said this too, when we were talking earlier is that men, dads, tend to go to help even quicker, like that male kind of response. I'm sorry, that's your male brain. I'm sorry. Yeah. They are the problem-solvers. And so really helping just us as parents learn. Asking that question first helps to slow things down. To give that hug to hear them out to validate validation doesn't mean you agree, you can say I'm sorry, you're sad. Sounds like you're sad, anything like that, even if you think it's ridiculous at their side, and this will be up here and that internal dialogue, right, this is crazy. I can't believe I'm validating the side of this right now. Yeah, they need to be heard. And then you can get to that problem solving piece if they're when they're ready for it and you allow those first two steps to happen. Usually, then they're on board for Okay, let's move forward. How do we do that?Hannah Choi 38:58And the easiest way to do that, I imagine is if you are regulated yourself, and yeah, accessing that your frontal lobe and your executive function skills, you need that perspective taking and cognitive flexibility, right, empathy. Dr. Alison Roy 39:13Yeah, so it's always okay to take a minute. I talked sometimes about the show "Bluey". When I talked to parents, and I don't know if you're, we're a big Bluey fan in our house andHannah Choi 39:24My kids are too old.Dr. Alison Roy 39:26Yeah, oh, that's too bad. You should watch it anyways. Um, yeah, it's totally entertaining his parents, but there's an episode where the mom and the two there's two little girls and the well, they're all dogs, but they are, you know, it's after school very clearly. And the kids are like, oh, oh, and mom's making snacks. And she's looking a little stressed and the dad comes home and she's like, I need a minute. And he's like, yep, yep, no problem. And so she goes and takes 20 minutes. And chaos ensues while she's gone, but adorable chaos. But you know, it's always okay to take that time to say, I just need a minute to be able to then come back and as long as you come back around and are fully engaged. Yeah, so, and Dan Siegel talks about that as well, in his book, Parenting From the Inside Out, he does a really great job of talking about engaged, sometimes you're ready to engage, you come home from work, you walk in the door, let's do it, I want to play Legos. And I want to get down on the floor, and I want to engage, and I'm gonna see all the things you did at school today. There are other times we come in the door. Likely, it's those times when our red brains already been activated before we come in that door. And we're just not ready to go down that path with our kids. Yep. And it's okay to say I just need 10 minutes, set a timer, and I'll be right there with you, and then just loop back around with them. And that that repair that coming back around can be just as powerful if not moreHannah Choi 40:48And such good role modeling for your kids. That it's showing them it's okay to do that. Yeah. So I haveDr. Alison Roy 40:55Impulse control. Yeah, our new society is on demand. And so have prolong that reward. It's super, super beneficial for their frontal lobe. So yeah,Hannah Choi 41:09I have a friend who has shared with me that it's, she finds it very difficult to take that pause, she, she immediately reacts, she, like immediately yells or immediately wants to fix something. And it's really difficult for her to just breathe and stop. And so do you have any recommendations for parents who might feel that way?Dr. Alison Roy 41:30Yeah, so some of us are naturally chemically made that way, well, we're just more reactive. So I would say in the moment to try to take a breath to try to remind yourself to that pause, remember hug, heard or helped, right. So just in that moment, trying to remember those steps. So that's something there's also a lot to regulating when we're not dysregulated. So working in regulation to try to ease off that irritability when we're not in the moment. So that's always something I try to recommend to parents get that regular, regular diet of regulatory moments, and they don't need to, I don't need to be big. And I think that was something I needed to hear, especially during the pandemic is, you know, like I said, three to five minutes, if it's a regulatory activity that you enjoy, whether it's taking a walk, or getting some fresh air, getting sunshine, or listening to a good song or podcast, you don't need a ton of time. And it can be less 30 seconds or less if you're just doing that physical connection. So just trying to weave those in throughout your day, to kind of keep that irritability level a little bit lowerHannah Choi 42:37The baseline, get the baseline lower. Dr. Alison Roy 42:39The baseline, right? We want to keep in that tolerance there. And then the last thing I will say is, it's okay, if that's your natural personality, or if you're in it right now, you know, meaning like maybe all three of your kids are under the age of five, and you're spending a lot of time in that zone. Because what can be even more powerful is if you have that snap reaction, the moment is being able to come back around and say, I'm sorry, I wasn't my best self. And here's how we how can we do better next time and making it about the week? It's about the pair? It's about that dyad a parent child, how can we do better next time. And that is, it's so so powerful, the repair. And it's also a really good role modeling of accountability, I just read a really good article about, we want our kids to be accountable. And accountability isn't something that's naturally kind of within us fully, we have to have that modeled and demonstrated for us. And the parent apology is so powerful and modeling accountability. And then the last piece, I'll say about that, yeah, that was I was cool article for me to read. I thought, Oh, this is really cool that we want our kids to be accountable, we have to demonstrate that. And the last thing I'll say about that is is changing the way we talk about apologies and this is something I've been pretty. Ever since learning this I've really helped my kids kind of understand this and as a family understand this is when we apologize, it's we don't have to say it's okay. There are times when it's okay, and we can say that's okay. There are times when it's not okay. And so it's better to say thank you for apologizing, because it makes it more about the weight of the apology and appreciating that than it is about the action that causedHannah Choi 44:22Right, right, right. Something that I remember from your presentation, during the pandemic, you talked about how repetition like repetitive behaviors can be really calming to the brain. Can you share a little bit about that?Dr. Alison Roy 44:40Yeah, so rep got repetitive, rhythmic? Any sort of anything like that? Can be it resonates with that bottom part, that red part of our brain, and that's something that we are wired for as humans from the get go. So when we're in utero, we're being regulated by our moms, right, there's nothing that we can do to regulate ourselves. So we're being regulated by, certainly her body temperature, her way of feeding us, but also her body movements, or rhythmic movements and her heartbeat. And so we are pre programmed to have that resonate with the most primal part of our brain. And so the brain scans that they've done just show when we do these repetitive rhythmic movements, how it engages and lights up that bottom part of the brain shows us or demonstrates to us that that's really that's the language of that part of the brain. So if we want to regulate that part of the brain, so that's why swinging. So you see kids that are, you know, have those swings at school. So swinging, walking or running is so helpful. So they'll actually there's been studies done where kids with speech and language delays, they'll put them on a treadmill and have them do their like activities on a treadmill and how much more productive they are, because it's just regulating that caught in that red part of their brain and the left side. Yeah, so really cool. Drumming. So anything like that, if you can think of rhythmic and repetitive, anything, those two words are really, really regulating coloring. So even this motion of coloring, these things really do work. So again, giving science so what we're told, right, there's like these coloring books, these adult coloring books and yoga and walking and running. And, you know, why are why are these things helpful? Well, there's a real reason why they're helpful. Because it does resonate with that part of our brain.Hannah Choi 46:44Right? I love that. It really, truly does. And I've said this before, so many times on the podcast and all of my clients, I'm sure I'm like, yeah, yeah. But to learn to learn about what's going on in your brain, just helps so much understand, like, why I'm so like, why am I supposed to do these things to help myself? And just knowing that why really, for me, always motivates, motivates my, like, just motivates me in doing those things. Yeah, yeah. So as soon as like, as soon as I learned about how it never even occurred to me, but like, you have to practice your, whatever self regulation strategies you use, you have to practice them so that so that they're easily accessible when it's time to use them. And yes, and it didn't occur to me like, well, we practice walking, so that walking is easily accessible to us when we need it. Or we practice anything like anything that we need to come easily to us. So learning that about, about whatever self regulation strategies that we need to use, yeah, let's practice them. So I just like drive around doing that square breathing. And, yes, and then it just comes so much more easily to me, when I'm in a moment where I'm like, Okay, well, yeah, you know how to do this.Dr. Alison Roy 48:07I always say, practice and have any tools that you might need to regulate, like, I'll go back to the coloring have a coloring book and crayons. Yeah, whatever it is in a designated place, because you go, last thing you want to do is be stressed when you're trying to find your regulation.Hannah Choi 48:20Where's my coloring book? Dr. Alison Roy 48:22Yeah, that is and you talk about practice square breathing, just to go and we'll do one more geeky brain thing but neuronal development is, you know, it's a, if you don't use it, you lose it. So if you don't use parts of your brain that actually will, your brain will prune that area of your brain. And so we definitely want the brain pruning what we want it to prune and not pruning other things. But neurons, we say "neurons that fire together wire together". So the more we use in neuronal pathway, like square breathing, the more wired it becomes, the more quick and accessible. This is why we practice tying our shoes, we practice riding our bikes, you know, as kids, there's lots of examples of that neuronal development of creating that pathway that's quite clunky at first, and then the more you use, it becomes lightning fast, because it's well oiled machine. And so you want that to be true for your coping skills or regulatory skills as well.Hannah Choi 49:18Yeah, I give both my kids play instruments and I, they're so tired of me hearing hearing me talk about executive function skills, and the brain. But I do remind them like, you, when you first got that piece of music, you looked at it and thought, Oh, my brain, like I don't know how to do this. And now you can play it without even looking at the music. And that's such a good evidence that that it is yes, we do get better when we practice and it's so worth it to put effort into the things that we do.Dr. Alison Roy 49:47Yeah, music is part of that rhythmic repetitive. That's why so many of us are regulated by music of some kind.Hannah Choi 49:55Yeah, yeah. So you have anything else that you that's that you want to share with parents who might be struggling in the moment.Dr. Alison Roy 50:05Yeah, I think the last thing I'll end on and this is just something I love talking about, because for me as a parent, I think it changed. The way I parented when I learned this is all about temper tantrums, and where they fit into this profile. So I think I mentioned temper tantrums are red brain reactions. So when we're having one of those temper tantrums, our kids are having one of those temper tantrums because we have we have them as adults. We don't ever stop having temper tantrums. That's a big myth, no, we always have them. But it does look different depending on how much frontal lobe we have. But when our kids are having those temper tantrums, when I was an early parent I was always told to ignore leave them alone, have them leave the room. And what that actually does is create this secondary panic response. Because in that moment, our red brain is looking for hugged helped or you know, heard. And so I always give the example of the first time I learned this about a temper tantrum not to ignore but to actually engage. I tried it. I called I called my colleague after this is all over and said, Oh my gosh, it actually worked does not magic, it actually worked. So my youngest, he was about two, maybe two and a half at the time. And his name is Finnegan and he is fiery Finnegan Riley, and he fits that name perfectly as a fiery Irishman. And he wanted a popsicle. I was like, Oh yeah, sure, buddy. Go ahead and and went into the freezer, and we only had orange popsicles and full blown meltdown. And in that moment, his brain viewed that as a life or death situation. I'm laughing because as adults are like this, isn't it? Yeah. So I was I saying to myself and my in my head, right internal dialogue. This is crazy. But on the outside, I said, Oh, buddy, I know it's so hard when you only only have orange popsicles and you want a red one. I'm sorry, you're sad? How can we help this to go better, I got down, I just sat down on the floor next to him. And just kept kind of saying those things over and over again. And he eventually crawled in my lap and was he was still sad. But was able to then calm down. And you know, when I before I did it, I thought isn't that giving in to the temper tantrum? reinforcing it right? This is what we're always afraid of as parents is reinforcing it. And no giving into the temper tantrum or reinforcing it would be driving to the store and getting that red popsicle. In that moment. All I was doing was giving his red brain what it needed to be able to get that logic and rational thought what little he hasDr. Alison Roy 50:26Whatever he hasDr. Alison Roy 52:40To come back online. Oh, okay, I'm, I'm this is, you know, there's still popsicles just not the color I wanted. And how can we move forward? So yeah, it's not perfect. It's not a perfect science. But, you know, learning that I think, to me really changed the way I parented.Hannah Choi 53:05Yeah. And it is so hard to because we're also probably pretty, if we're not, maybe we're just in our emotional brain, but we're probably also a little bit down in our red brain. So it's hard. We have to, like, get ourselves out of there to be able to do that instead of just yelling it or just slamming the door and leaving the room. Right? Yes.Dr. Alison Roy 53:26Yeah. And I found that reaction to be calming for me to to be like deep breath. Yeah, how crazy this is. Yeah, get on the floor. Right. Right. It's really hard. Yes. You saying it to yourself to man, this is really hard.Hannah Choi 53:41I'm having a hard time. I'm having a hard time. Yeah, yeah. I remember putting my daughter in. She wouldn't she was tantruming for so long. And I was just losing my mind. So I ended up filling the tub. And I put her in clothed in the tub. And she stoppedDr. Alison Roy 54:02Yeah, cuz her amygdala needed something temperature wise. Yep. Yeah,Hannah Choi 54:07yeah. Yeah.Dr. Alison Roy 54:09Do the best. We do the best that we can we doHannah Choi 54:12That's right. That is right. Sometimes they go in the tub clothed. At least I made the water warm. At least I didn't wasn't like you're getting cold.Hannah Choi 54:26All right. Well, thank you so much, Alison. This is just I mean, we know both of us could probably keep talking about this all day. But forever as I Yeah, people probably have places to go or they have like regulating activities to go practice. Dr. Alison Roy 54:41I hope so. Go practice your regulating activities! Hannah Choi 54:44I hope so too. And can you share with our listeners where they can find you and maybe some of your favorite resources that people might want to check us?Dr. Alison Roy 54:53Of course I have a website that I'm super terrible at updating but it does have some good resources on it. Hi, it's Dr. Alison roy.com. All one word, Dr.AlisonRoy.com. And then within that website, there's lots of different links to stuff including my YouTube channel, which is where I save a lot of the good resources that I find is even a playlist for parents and educators. So check that out. Certainly. And, yeah, that's, that's hopefully some resources for you.Hannah Choi 55:25Great, thank you so much. And that's our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you learned something new about your brain. And if you weren't a brain nerd like me and Alison already, hopefully, we've convinced you to join the official club. We'd love to have you. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to some of the topics we cover today. And you can find the links to the slides that Alison referenced. If you know anyone who might be feeling the stress of parenting. Wait a second, I think that's all parents. Please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. You can sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

You may or may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics but in a live setting, it's such a blast and I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about Executive Function skills and discover how life changing they can be to work on. We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our latest webinar, “Your Kid’s Not Lazy: How to Unlock Motivation Through Executive Function” to our Focus Forward listeners and share some bonus content for those who happened to be among the 1300 people who registered.This past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, their related Executive Function skills and challenges and some tools and strategies you can use to help make motivation a little easier for your kids and/or yourself. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the q&a feature on Zoom and then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. For this webinar, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So, I invited our panelists, Amy McDuffie and Vin Kachurik to join me the day after to help answer a whole bunch more. Keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our bonus conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills, and self-advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate to. The new section starts around 44:08 if you want to skip right to it! If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, BeyondBookSmart.com. They're always free and we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable.In the meantime, here are some resources related to the episode: Full recording of the webinarMichael Delman's book, Your Kid's Gonna Be OkayBlog on ADHD & MotivationLink to agenda and webinar slides: Info about Executive Function coachingSupporting College Students - including Covey QuadrantsHow to Increase Motivation With ADHD: 10 Tips From Treatment ExpertsDr. Lisa Damour’s Advice for Motivation to Do HomeworkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscript:Hannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. You may not know this, but in addition to hosting our podcast, I recently started hosting the free webinars Beyond BookSmart offers to help teach people about executive function skills and related challenges. We have panelists who add their insight and perspective and we cover a wide variety of topics. It's kind of like Focus Forward live. It's such a blast. And I really love being able to connect with more people who are excited to learn about EF skills, and how life changing working on them can be. Hannah Choi 00:47We thought it would be fun to bring the audio from our webinars to our Focus Forward listeners. There's just such good stuff in there, and I wanted you all to be able to hear it too. If you're interested in actually attending the webinars live, you can find more about them in the resources section of our website, beyondbooksmart.com. They're always free. And we put a ton of work into them to make sure they're truly useful, relevant and relatable. So this past week's webinar was all about motivation, how it works, the related EF skills and challenges and some tools and strategies to use to help make motivation a little easier for our kids and ourselves. Throughout our webinars, we always invite people to ask questions using the Q&A feature on Zoom. And then we answer as many as we can at the end of the presentation on the feature topic. And this past week, there were so many great questions left after we finished up the webinar, and we really, really wanted to answer as many as we could. So I met up with our panelists, Amy and Vin, the next morning to continue answering them. So keep listening after the webinar audio to hear our conversation. We cover all sorts of topics, including motivating kids with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, college survival skills and self advocacy, and using planners and calendars to support that planning, prioritizing and time management executive function skills. I really hope you enjoy today's episode, and that you learn about motivation and its challenges, which is something I think we can all relate do. The audio begins when I introduce our panelists, I figure you wouldn't want to listen to all the housekeeping stuff that I covered in the beginning. And if you attended the webinar, so you've already heard the audio from it, you can jump ahead to 44 minutes to hear these Q&A questions. And now on to the show. Hannah Choi 02:39All right, let's get to know our panelists. Both of our panelists tonight are Beyond BookSmart coaches, and they also provide additional support to both our coaches and our clients caregivers as Executive Function Consultants. And first up, we have Vin Kachurik joining us from Ohio. Vin please tell us about yourself and your roles at Beyond BookSmart.Vin Kachuik 03:01Hi everybody. As mentioned, my name is Vin Kachurik. I use they/them pronouns. I live on a farm in Ohio with my spouse and my elderly Greyhound, he's sleeping over here next to me. I'm an executive function coach and consultant here at Beyond BookSmart. And prior to this, I taught creative and academic writing at the college level for about 10 years. Though, given that most of my students were first years, I feel like a lot of my classes would have been better titled "How to survive college 101". I feel like I spent as much time teaching students to manage the challenge of college as I did teaching them writing. But that experience really helped me develop a lot of the skills that I use now, experience that I hope will be helpful to you today.Hannah Choi 03:43Yes, absolutely. Thanks, Vin. It's really great to have you here with us tonight. Next on our panel is Amy McDuffie joining us from North Carolina. Amy, can you please share your background and the work you do at Beyond BookSmart?Amy McDuffie 03:56Yes, thank you, Hannah. Hi, everyone. I have been a coach with Beyond BookSmart for the past two years. And I'm also a member of our hiring team and an executive function consultant. I use she/her pronouns and my background is in special education, specifically in behavior and learning disabilities working with students from elementary through high school. I'm also a former behavior specialist supporting students from kindergarten through eighth grade with a focus on social emotional learning. I'm also the parent of two pretty awesome teens. I have a 14 year old daughter and a 17 year old son. And I'm so glad that you all are here and I'm really excited to be with you.Hannah Choi 04:39Thank you and welcome, Amy. All right. So let's get started. Motivation itself is not an executive function skill, but it is supported by and made much easier by a bunch of EF skills. If you hear me say EF it's short for executive function. Cognitive flexibility is needed to imagine a future state that is different from now and come up with ways to achieve it. Working memory helps to keep that future goal in mind. organization and planning are needed to sequence the actions to get ourselves to that future state. And task initiation gets it all going. And emotional regulation helps us maintain optimism and persevere despite setbacks. So it's not really surprising that kids with EF weaknesses or ADHD can have concurrent issues with motivation. However, these underlying executive function challenges are often to ignore are often ignored, or unrecognized, or worse, misconstrued as laziness. So all of these EF skills that help with motivation live in the prefrontal cortex, our thinking brain, it's right behind your forehead. So if we have these prefrontal cortexes and EF skills that are supposed to be helping with motivation, why is it still so hard to get motivated? For kids, one huge part of the answer to that question is that their executive function skills are still developing, they're still emerging. And these skills don't fully develop until our mid to late 20s. So in addition to not having access to fully developed EF skills, they also don't have as many years of experience as we do, and learning like what works and what doesn't work. And remembering this can help us be empathetic to our children when they're struggling with motivation. They're not doing it intentionally, or to be contrary, although it can feel that way. They're lacking the skills. And when we view their behavior only through our adult lens, it can set up unrealistic expectations for them. Hannah Choi 06:44Our motivation, and the related EF skills can also be impacted by systems in the brain. The limbic system, and especially the amygdala, which detects threats cannot differentiate between real threats like a car accident, or a bear attack, and perceived threats, like a lot of homework or having to clean your room. And so the limbic system detects the threats, and then says, "Alert, alert, get out of here or fight back, because this does not feel good". And in doing this, it actually hijacks the thinking part of our brain, and it sucks energy and blood and oxygen away from it, and makes it harder, sometimes even impossible to access our EF skills, which as we know, we need to motivate ourselves to do the things we don't want to do. So managing our emotions so that we can stay in the thinking part of our brain is a huge part of conquering motivation. So stay tuned, because we're going to cover the executive function skill of emotional regulation benefit. Another really, really, really important thing to look at is the ADHD brain, and how motivation is impacted by ADHD. Amy, you are our ADHD expert. Can you explain this for us?Amy McDuffie 08:00Yes, thanks, Hannah. So there's some fascinating research on the impact of ADHD on motivation. And understanding these dynamics can really help us to empathize with individuals with ADHD. So ADHD is associated with lower levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine. And this changes how the ADHD brain perceives both reward and pleasure, which causes a lack of enthusiasm for starting or completing tasks. So this might be one reason you have difficulty with motivation if you have ADHD. And this can also mean that kids with ADHD experience much more frustration and failure than they do success, which has a negative impact on their self perception and also increases stress. So this can become a real barrier to getting started, it can become a self reinforcing negative cycle, and also results in less efficient processing because all that stress just makes the brain shut down. And another big difference in the ADHD brain involves the brain structure called the default mode network, which is the part of the brain that activates when we're daydreaming or not focused on a task or activity. And when the brain is directed towards a task or goal, the default network deactivates. But in ADHD, this part of the brain is more often activated, which leads to your focus constantly being pulled away from what you're doing in the moment, and toward completely unrelated thoughts. So that explains why staying focused on really tedious or repetitive tasks can be such a chore with ADHD. It really isn't a matter of will, it's a matter of neurology, and that's why brain based interventions can be really effective for individuals with ADHD. Hannah Choi 09:56Yes, thank you so much, Amy for that. I know it really helps me to understand what's going on in the brain. And I always work with my clients to help them understand. So I hope you all found that helpful too. And if you're concerned that the causes of lack of motivation in you or your child run deeper than EF challenges or ADHD, please reach out to a mental health provider to explore the possibility of depression or another diagnosis. Hannah Choi 10:25Okay, so now that we have a better understanding of how executive function challenges and learning differences, like ADHD can impact motivation, we can see how the label of "laziness" is often unfair. Yet, it can often go a step further, being repeatedly told you're lazy, can weave itself into our perception of ourselves and our inner narrative, like Amy said, and it makes it harder to break free from the label, as you may even begin to believe it yourself. And this is where having someone you can rely on for support, who's outside of yourself, who doesn't have the same perspective of you. And that becomes essential, they can help break those narratives and introduce new habits and ways of thinking. And I know this comes up often for us coaches, and so Vin, could you share a little bit about how you approach breaking that negative narrative with your coaching clients?Vin Kachuik 11:17Yeah, I'm happy to. So as Amy and Hannah both mentioned, that negative thought cycle can be really, really debilitating. So one of the first things I focus on with clients is finding and celebrating those easy wins. My favorite approaches to this are things like acknowledging overlooked successes, and also finding simple goals that are fairly quick to accomplish with little support. So for instance, if a client tells me that every day they get up with their alarm, I am just over the moon for them like to do that consistently is an absolutely amazing skill. It's a solid routine they can build other routines off of and it obviously not everybody can do that. And this shifts the perspective from what the client is not doing that largely comes from those expectations to what they are doing, showing them that they have skills and strengths to be confident in. And if that same client tells me that they want to do something like keep their clothes off the floor, but they just can't start that task of picking them, picking them up and organizing them. A simple win could be just taking the time to say, let's try it now and see what we can get done. There's no expectation of completion of the task here. The goal is to take some of the stress out of just initiating that task, and celebrate whatever progress comes of it, which can often be enough to sort of break that negative mindset. With both of these approaches, though, I always try to understand why the client wants to accomplish a certain task. Because often what reinforces the negative cycle are expectations that don't value the same things that our clients do. undervaluing the ability to consistently get up with your alarm makes the very tools that can help our clients seem worthless to them. And overvaluing. A tidy room can negatively incentivize our clients to prioritize a task that isn't really important to them and often sets them up for failure. So to kind of put it simply -"too long, didn't read", to help turn someone's negative narrative into a positive narrative set up and celebrate an easy win to show them their value, and then reflect on what they value and why.Hannah Choi 13:36Thank you so much. And I love that someone submitted this request with their webinar registration, which I think many of us will relate to. And it also gets to the "why" that Vin was just talking about. One registrant wrote, "Please help me understand why my son can be so motivated to get schoolwork done, but says that closing his dresser drawers and picking clothes up off the floor or cooking himself oatmeal is too much work". This is such a great question because it illustrates how much motivation is affected by whether we want to do this thing or not, whether it's important to us or not. And our parent perspective sure can be very different from our kid's, or even our partner's. So in this example, the student is more motivated to do schoolwork than household tasks. And it may be because his schoolwork is just more important to him. But to his parent, those household tasks are also really important. So how can we reconcile these differences in perspectives? Let's check in with our coaches to see what they have to say.Amy McDuffie 14:44All right, so I want to talk to you about a tool called HALT which stands for hungry, angry or anxious, lonely and tired, which I find to be really helpful to use this tool. These are all general triggers that can lead to poor self-control. And this is a good tool to use before addressing those differences in perspectives and just communication in general. You know, we all know that if someone initiates an important conversation when we're exhausted or haven't eaten all day, it's so much harder to receive the information and have a productive conversation. We're just not as great at communicating when those needs aren't met. And speaking of communicating with our kids, I know that we all want to help to problem solve to jump in and be a fixer. But we really have to remind ourselves that listening is the most important thing we can do when our kids open up to us. And this requires us to really tune in and avoid focusing on our own responses while our kids share their struggles with us. Our colleague, Denise taught me the acronym "WAIT" which stands for "Why Am I Talking?" as a reminder to just listen, we also have to remember that our kids experiences are very different from ours, we really have no idea what it's like to grow up in 2023. And it's just not helpful to operate from the place of "When I was your age...".Vin Kachuik 16:17That's so true, Amy, thank you. And another tool to kind of go along with that that I like a lot for this is Covey quadrants, Covey quadrants or sometimes referred to as the Covey Time Management Matrix, or the Eisenhower Matrix - it's got a lot of names- for prioritizing time, and tasks. So essentially, each task is classified by its urgency and importance, which then organizes it in to one of the four quadrants shown here. So quadrant one is the urgent and important quadrant, it's the top priority, the thing you really need to get done now. An example might be the big math exam is tomorrow, and you need to prepare. The action for this is do it to the best of your ability, complete that task as you can. But keep in mind that putting too many tasks in this quadrant can be overwhelming, and often causes burnout, which may be why, you know, in the question, the kid was like, "Oh, I can't make oatmeal, but I can do my homework". Well, that's because that quadrant was already full. In quadrant two, the not urgent but important quadrant. That's for things like keeping up with an exercise routine. The action for that is scheduled it. This is something that you want to make as routine as you possibly can. And because this is where the deep work and skill building really happens and where most people tend to be at their best. Quadrant three, urgent but not important. Something like it's garbage day, your chores need to be done tonight. An action for that is to either delegate it or ask for help with it. This quadrant often involves learning to set boundaries, and advocating for yourself by asking for help when it's needed, or learning to say no to what you can't accomplish. And lastly, Quadrant Four, the not urgent and not important quadrant. That's for things like watching Tik Toks, or TV. The action for this is unfortunately "delete it". These are often low value instant gratification and avoidance coping strategies, which isn't to say you can never enjoy a little fun and leisure time, but just not to the detriment of other priorities. Vin Kachuik 18:36So if defining urgency and important importance feels a little too subjective to you, something you can do is use just a simple one to 10 rating scale to help clarify the value of each task. Using this framework allows us to better see and illustrate our own value systems. But the most important important part of this is following up with those tasks that aren't as valued. For instance, watching hours of Tik Toks not as an act of laziness or defiance, but recognizing it as a poor coping strategy when faced with a bunch of disorganized and overwhelming tasks that you don't know how to start or manage. Recognizing this provides an opportunity, like Amy was saying, to better understand differing perspectives, and reconcile those differences in expectations that can often lead to conflict.Hannah Choi 19:28Thank you for those, Vin and Amy. And the other strategy that may help with sharing expectations and understanding perspectives is family meetings. And there's a lot of great resources online for learning how to hold effective family meetings. And yes, you'll probably get some pushback from the kids but stick with it. The experts promise that it's worth it in the long run. And you'll want to keep that HALT tool in mind and make sure everyone is well fed and rested before you start the meeting. Hannah Choi 19:54All right, so now that we've learned about the development of executive function skills, motivation and the the brain and how differing perspectives can play a part? Let's look at some specific tools that can support motivation. As many of you asked about this, then and Amy, what are your favorite tools and strategies through their coaching clients to help them get motivated?Vin Kachuik 20:16Oh, so one of my favorite one, it's actually two tools, I use them together. It's a combination of first step and five minute goals. These are two of my absolute favorites. And I tell clients to use this all the time, I find is really effective for task initiation, which can often be the most challenging part of any task. As the name suggests, first step is all about finding the first step to a task that makes sense. And five minute goals makes doing that step seem a little bit more manageable by setting the expectation of only having to do that task for, you guessed it five minutes, after those five minutes, if it's not so bad, then you know, keep going, great. If you can't do it any more than just celebrate that you did at least five minutes of work, which is infinitely more than doing nothing. It seems simple and straightforward. But part of why this is so effective, is that more often than not, we tend to view tasks based on their last step, we make dinner, we finish our homework, we go for a run, and so on. And we lose sight of the initial steps that we need to get there, like deciding what to make for dinner, gathering homework, materials, and warming up for a run. But even knowing where to start isn't always enough to muster the motivation, especially when the steps that follow feel big and insurmountable. So this is really where five minute goals comes in, to better manage those expectations and keep the focus more on those short term steps that ultimately lead you to that task completion.Amy McDuffie 21:50Thanks, Vin, that's really helpful. Another tool that that I like to use to address motivation is called decisional balance. And this tool examines the potential benefits and costs of making a change, and also for keeping things the same. And this can really help determine why making the change or doing the thing is important to you. Even if it's something that you find really mundane, you know, thinking about, is there some bigger benefit down the road. You know, motivation can really be impacted about how we feel about a task. And I just think this is a really great tool. It also supports self regulation, metacognition, and even planning, prioritization and time management skills.Hannah Choi 22:37Yes, thank you, Amy. And I wanted to bring up Covey Quadrants one more time, because in addition to helping us understand each other's perspectives, as Vin shared with us, this tool can also help us with motivation. And by completing the activity of the covey quadrants, you practice the executive function skills of planning and prioritizing. And Covey quadrants can help you define what you truly need to work on first, and because sometimes it can feel like everything is urgent and important, which can make it hard to get started. And so Covey quadrants kind of helps you narrow it down. And it can also remind you of those quadrants and those activities, sorry, in quadrant four, which might provide temporary relief from the discomfort of doing the things in quadrant one and three. But in the long run, these activities can have negative consequences. They divert time away from the important and urgent tasks in quadrant one. And they also divert time away from those energy giving and rewarding activities that are in quadrant two. And if you're having trouble getting buy-in from your child, or even yourself, to do this whole Covey quadrant exercise, you might instead try simply making a list of everything that needs to get done. It sounds simple, but it really does help to get it out of your brain and onto paper. And just like Vin said, thinking about tasks as a whole can feel insurmountable, but seeing them written down one by one can help. Hannah Choi 24:04Okay, so let's quickly visit the emotional right? Let's quickly visit emotional regulation. That's an executive function skill that is key to pretty much everything. That was what we - I mentioned that back when we were talking about the brain. So as we learned, being able to regulate our emotions is a huge, huge piece of the motivation puzzle. And it's much harder to use our EF skills to complete or even start a task if our emotional brain is taking control of the situation, instead of our thinking brain. So panelists, would you please share your favorite emotional regulation tools that help us stay in our thinking brain?Vin Kachuik 24:46Yeah, sure. I'm personally a big fan of breathing - Need it to stay alive but some simple deep breathing techniques can also do wonders for emotional regulation, especially with just a little bit of practice. What I'm particularly fond of is the four by four square breathing technique. So you breathe in for four, hold for four, breathe out for four, and hold for four. And there's tons of other variations on that as well. There's ones with visuals, geometric visuals and meditations to follow and things like that. But what I find most effective about this is that it gives something specific to focus on the counting, or the visual gives you something specific. I hear a lot from my clients, especially those with ADHD, that they just they cannot meditate, because they can't keep their mind clear, there's just too many thoughts. And they don't know how to put them aside, counting using the four by four can aid that focus to practice deep breathing, even without a clear mind, and you still get the one of the most beneficial parts of meditation from that.Amy McDuffie 25:53I totally agree with you, Vin. Breathing is such an important tool for emotional regulation. And going back to our HALT tool for just a moment, I think we also need to be mindful of the role that sleep plays and emotional regulation, we can probably all attest to the effects of a poor night's sleep, you know, we tend to be so much more irritable and vulnerable to stress without sleep. So just a few tips for improving sleep, are sticking to a regular wakeup time each day, getting some sunshine in the morning, if possible. This really just helps to reset our internal clocks, and making your bed a sleep haven. So avoiding using it for work or homework. And also avoiding blue screen light because that really stimulates our brains. I also encourage clients to establish a bedtime routine that includes calming activities, leading up to that time, you know, something like reading or practicing that deep breathing. Even using an adult coloring book can be really soothing, really just anything that signals to our brains that we are preparing for sleep.Hannah Choi 27:04 Yes, so important. Thank you so much for sharing those, Amy and Vin, those I use those, they work very well for me. And I also need to make sure I get a lot of exercise. And I also noticed my kids do a lot better when they've been active. So something to remember is that with these emotional regulation tools, and any of the other tools we mentioned tonight, we have to practice them regularly for them to do us any good. They need to be able to come easily to us when we need them. And that's only going to happen if we practice them. And sometimes kids can be resistant to using external tools. So what we can do is normalize using them by using them ourselves. And we can show them like, "Hey, I'm gonna write this down. So I don't forget it" or "My day is going to be crazy. So I'm going to write down everything that I need to do". And so showing them that you can use those external tools and have it be really helpful. Okay, so we're going to jump into our Q&A, and see what questions we can answer for you. Thank you for dropping some in there. Let's see. Hey, Amy, would you like to share how we can teach executive function skills over the summer summers coming up?Amy McDuffie 28:15Sure. I think summer is a really great time as coaches to work with clients on EF skills, because it really gives us the opportunity to work with clients in a you know, low stakes, low pressure situation, you know, looking at what their goals are, what their interests are. Personally, I have really enjoyed coaching in the summer by tapping into clients' interests. Last summer, I worked with a client who wanted to learn how to create a graphic novel. So we took that project and, you know, basically identified all the tiny steps to take along the way to, you know, to reach the bigger goal of developing that graphic novel and worked in so many EF skills along the way. So, yeah, there's just so many fun things to do over the summer with coaching.Hannah Choi 29:11Great, thank you. All right. So let's see. Here's another one. What are some strategies to help kids who know what they are supposed to do and how, but still avoid the task because they find it boring, time consuming and not engaging for their level of intelligence?Vin Kachuik 29:30I can take that one. Hannah Choi 29:33Okay, thanks, Vin. Vin Kachuik 29:35There's so first of all, a little personal background from that -been there. And both personally and professionally. One of the best recommendations I have is, honestly, I had another layer of challenge to what they're doing. I mean, a lot of times creativity and intelligence kind of go hand in hand. And so there's a lot of opportunity to invite a creative perspective on how They approached that work, maybe, you know, taking it up a notch to do beyond what the assignment asks for. And to do part that something is a little bit more interest to them, even if it means a little bit more work, at least there'll be a little bit more engaged in doing that. And sometimes to the other option, that I find is that a lot of times, a lot of times clients and students who have done that, or struggle with that, they're not being challenged enough in other ways, even just beyond the classroom. So even just affording an opportunity prioritizing something that is more fun and stimulating to them, can kind of open them up to like, Okay, well, that was great. So I feel good. Now I can just tackle these other tasks. Easy peasy.Hannah Choi 30:48Yes,Amy McDuffie 30:49I love that. Hannah Choi 30:50All right, I see a question that I'm gonna steal. How do you stay motivated through transitions, my kids always struggle with change, and their already rocky systems tend to crumble? Yes, this is very tricky. I actually interviewed a licensed clinical social worker for this, her name is Rachel Hulstein-Lowe. And you can listen to that episode, if you go back a few episodes in there in our podcast. And yeah, we talked for a long time about that, and how challenging that really is. And those transitions can come, they can be expected transitions, like the beginning of the school year, the end of the school year holidays, or they can be unexpected transitions, like you have to move or, you know, just some some unexpected change that can happen. And the most important thing is to have some thing for your kids to fall back on. So they have like a really safe place at home, they feel really comfortable at home. So a lot of that, like validation and connection that we can make with our kids to to give them a safe place to feel to be. And then also the sleep, nutrition, exercise. Those three are huge. Without taking care of those, it's very difficult to manage those already rocky systems. And so it can sound silly to just to say that those are important, but they truly, truly are. And then also practicing some mindfulness can be really helpful too. So, you know, just take some time to be in your body and to see how you feel. And to just check in with that can also be really helpful with that emotional regulation that comes with those challenging transitions. Hannah Choi 32:36So, all right. Let's see. Um, let's see, how do you support a 10 year old who is reluctant to change? Anybody want want to dive in for that?Amy McDuffie 32:54I'm happy to jump in on that one.Hannah Choi 32:57Thanks, Amy.Amy McDuffie 32:57Thank you. Sure. So working with with a younger client who's reluctant to change, you know, I think it all comes down to just being able to connect with them and find out what's important to them, even at 10 years old, they're gonna have strong opinions and interests of their own. So I think it's really important to tap into that with them. And then, you know, also see, you know, what is motivating to them? What are they motivated by in their interests? And, you know, look at, you know, kind of bigger picture, like, do they see areas where, you know, of their strengths, what are their strengths and areas that they need to, you know, maybe potentially grow in. And if you're able to kind of, you know, access that that gives you an opportunity to really work with them on, you know, let's see where we can make some small changes and just kind of experiment with some making some changes and see what happens.Hannah Choi 33:59Yeah, and that's why when we work with our clients, we never, like give extra work or anything, we just work with what our clients are already doing. So that can be helpful to get that buy in and make that connection is, in some is meeting them where they are. Hannah Choi 34:20All right, let's see, oh, someone would like Vin to share a few more examples of how to increase engagement by adding a layer of challenge.Vin Kachuik 34:30Sure. So one that I like a lot, actually. And this helps in two ways is actually timing your work giving limited chunks of time to do it. So basically challenging, so like, how can you get this done in an hour? Yeah, you're smart. You're good at writing, right? You know, can you write this paper in an hour? I bet you can. Yeah. And not only so that does a couple of things. One, it gives them a time limit to stay focused on the task. so they don't sort of lose themselves in the weeds and get bored. And then again, adds that layer of challenge to it. But the other could be something along the lines of, you know, giving them the freedom and flexibility or challenging them to do extra research into what they're doing. You know, if they're doing a set of math problems they know how to do, and it's just really boring to them. Then you ask them to maybe find new math problems or harder math problems, ask them to explain those math problems, to you to be the authority to be the teacher is the all of these are really good ways to add an extra level of challenge and also responsibility that can kind of take them out of that. This is routine. This is boring, I don't want to do it, feeling.Hannah Choi 35:47Love it. Let's go back to the brain. Amy, you noted that low levels of neurotransmitters means that successes can be less reinforcing for those with ADHD. If this is the case, do small wins or other strategies help someone with ADHD initiate tasks?Amy McDuffie 36:06That is such a great question, isn't it? Yes, yes. So yes, the answer is yes. Those small wins, absolutely help someone with ADHD, initiate tasks. As coaches, our job is often to help clients recognize those small wins, I find that working with clients with ADHD, they tend to have more difficulty, you know, recognizing what the small wins are, or just not seeing not seeing them at all. And we really have to, you know, look for those small steps that they're taking, and help them to recognize that, you know, because that's a bigger part of the issue is, you know, the, the negative reinforcement that they've received, and, you know, kind of that perpetuating, you know, narrative, and, you know, experiences of failures. So, it really is helpful to recognize even what we consider those small wins to help them get started.Hannah Choi 37:08That's great. Thank you. All right. My child is entering college in the fall. Any tips to help prepare for this change? It's a big one.Vin Kachuik 37:20Oh, man. So there's, yeah, there's a lot college is crazy. There's a lot to prepare for, for that. Um, honestly, I think the biggest thing and the most price specific advice I can get give is self advocacy. It's navigating college is really a matter. Like, I there's this mentality, that when you go into college, you have to listen to what everybody else says and does all the time. But like they're there to serve you. You're paying to go there, your education is a matter of what you choose and get out of it. So there's a lot of self advocacy needed, especially in terms of saying, hey, I need help with this, Hey, I need help with that. How do I do this? And there's tons of resources on campus, the best and most successful students I've seen are the ones who are not afraid to walk into somebody's office and be like, Hey, can you help me? And like, nine times out of 10, that person will, because that's their job. That's what they're there to do. So tell them you know, really tell them, Don't be afraid. You are ruler of the roost, king of the castle, they're, they're there to help, you know, and you have to advocate for what you need.Hannah Choi 38:32Yes, I always encourag/make my college clients make sure that their teacher knows their name by the end of the second week. And it has come in handy. So many times when they've had to remember I had one client who had to miss midterm because she was really sick but because she had developed a relationship with a teacher, that teacher was completely understanding and was really gentle with her and allowed her to schedule it on a different day.Vin Kachuik 39:04And the more you talk, the more you self advocate that yes, yes. And absolutely. And it makes that whole process so much smoother.Hannah Choi 39:12Yes, a lot of feedback that I get from my college clients is that they were scared or really nervous to approach their teacher. But then afterwards, they realize, Oh, they're just human. And then they were not they realized that they didn't have to be nervous, and then it was just so easy to do it the next semester. Yeah. Something else that I recommend for for entering college is just understanding that 80/20 switch. So when you're in high school, you know, like, the 80% of it is done, maybe like in in school, or with a lot of support and then 20% of it you're going to do on your own, but it's the complete opposite in college and there's just 20% of support given and then you are sponsible for that other 80%. And that can be really shocking. I had a client say to me, I realized that I have to spread out my work over a few days, and not just do it all like the night before it's due, which is usually what we have to do in high school, just do it the night before it's due. So that's a good thing to keep in mind. Hannah Choi 40:18All right, um, okay, so since this webinar addresses kids, are there any suggestions for motivation that apply to adults? I just want to say that everything all of this can use for adults.Vin Kachuik 40:37Apps? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, really, any of this, this, this is not stuff that's unique to kids. There's plenty of adults who struggle with this, I would say, probably the best suggestions I have are for really kind of going back to that self reflection and understanding your values value system. It can get very easy to get sucked into the rat race of doing things to other people's expectations, and to the detriment of yourself. So I would say the tools that we use, like HALT, you know, checking, regulating yourself that way, because you can't help anybody else. If you haven't helped yourself, it's like oxygen masks on an airplane. And, and honestly, also, the Covey quadrants are a great way to kind of break down your day and your routine and say, like, what is really important to me right now? Yeah, it literally addresses that what is important, because it can be easy to get lost in things like saying, Well, my work is important, doing the dishes are important. But maybe in a given moment, spending some time with your family is actually the thing that's most important, it gives you that that sense of longing, or that sense of sorry, family and like reduces that sense of longing that you may feel that loneliness and HALT, right, and also just strengthens those bonds.Hannah Choi 42:03I love that. All right. I think we have time for one more. Do you have a suggestion of digital planners or calendars for those who have reading and writing struggles, maybe dyslexia and ADHD, who need more executive function help?Amy McDuffie 42:21I'm happy to jump on this one, Hannah. Thanks, Amy. Sure, sure. So absolutely. Digital planners and calendars are so helpful. I highly recommend Google Calendar, it's easy to use, it syncs across devices. And you know, even you know, younger children with access can even utilize them as well. I utilize them with both of my children just with us planning events and appointments so that they know what's coming up. And it's really helpful. There are so many other apps to use. As planners as well, there's iStudiesPro, My Study Life, I know that that one is free, and I believe it was actually developed by a students with along with her mom, it's a really good one. And I know a lot of clients who also use the Todoist app as well. So there are just a number of them out there. And just on a personal level, I also really, I knew this is not digital, but I use a bullet journal for myself along with my Google calendar. And it's just a great way to kind of list out all of my to do's each day in conjunction with my calendar.Vin Kachuik 43:37I add one thing to that bullet journal. Yeah, they did the motivation. One of the things I love about physical planners, is I always suggest to my clients, customize them personalized for them, and stickers, raw all over them. Because honestly, we like pretty things. And if it's pretty attractive, we're gonna use it more. Absolutely.Hannah Choi 44:01I love it. That's my combo, too is the Google Calendar and a bullet journal can't live without it. Hannah Choi 44:08Okay, so this is where we ended our Q&A section of the webinar. Now keep listening to hear the rest of the conversation that I recorded with Amy and Vin the next morning, which I might add was Vin's first day of vacation. Thank you, Vin for taking some time out of your first day off to add your insights to our answers to these great questions. Hannah Choi 44:31Hey, Vin and Amy, welcome back. We had so many awesome questions at the end of last night's webinar that we just really wanted to get back into and answer some of them right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for joining me again.Vin Kachuik 44:48Sure. Thanks so much. It was great last night. Yeah.Amy McDuffie 44:51It was so fun.Hannah Choi 44:54Yeah, people ask such good questions, too. I always wish we could see them. That's the one thing that I don't like about I did it. I feel a little disconnected from our audience. So. Vin Kachuik 45:04So that is the part that you miss. Yeah, getting that like good audience feedback is really?Hannah Choi 45:13Yeah, it's like everyone has masks on, right? Yeah. Yeah, so let's dive in. Let's see, what's the first one? All right, what are the strategies to develop motivation and teenagers with Oppositional Defiant Disorder? What a great question.Amy McDuffie 45:34That is a really, really good question, Hannah. Honestly, I think that the strategies are pretty much the same as what we have already discussed. But just knowing that it takes so much more time, a lot of patience, you know, to work through those strategies. And, you know, really sharpening this communication skills that we had talked about is really, really important here. And I think that, you know, any opportunities for, you know, autonomy, and, you know, giving the child ownership in the process is super important in these situations.Vin Kachuik 46:14Amy? Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean interrupt. I just in the webinar last night, you talked about like, the there's a lot of talk about, like the neurotransmitters basically, acknowledging the bad more than the good a lot of times. And do you think that Oppositional Defiant Disorder, like one of the issues is that being told to do something takes away that feeling of personal success and value of the task? Because you're doing it for somebody else's expectation? And not really your own? That makes it feel like extra negative? I don't know, does that tie in at all?Amy McDuffie 46:46I think it does, because I think that, you know, again, that that piece of autonomy is so important here. So I think that's a really good point, then. And, you know, kind of going back to that, you know, negative track piece, I think that this is another situation where, I mean, that's a hard diagnosis to have for a kid. It really is. And, you know, I'm always concerned, like when I see that label of what the child's perception is, and what they understand about that. So I think that that's all really important to take into account here. And I really love I love working with, with teens and kids that, you know, have ODD because I feel like, it's such a great opportunity to really connect with them. And that is the most important piece and to build that trust. And just to get to know them as a person versus, you know, what the, you know, what the label says, or what the challenges are. And something that I have found to be really effective is, you know, really trying to set them up for opportunities for success, you know, what are their strengths? And, you know, giving them opportunities for leadership, you know, how can we build their self confidence, you know, to combat some of that, you know, the negative, you know, framing that they've had for however long.Vin Kachuik 48:13Ties back into those easy wins strategy, like acknowledging what they're good at? And yeah, what's that? What's an easy task that we can support that they can do well.Amy McDuffie 48:22exactly, exactly. Yeah,Hannah Choi 48:24I had a, I had a client who I started working with her when she was a junior, and then through her senior year, and she had oppositional defiant disorder. And, and I did notice that, in the beginning, it was, well, I just noticed that biggest change in our interactions and her openness to try new things, was after a while, and after she learned that she could really trust me, and that I was like, trying to help her build that autonomy. And it took a while, but I did see a big shift in in her. I don't know her willingness to work with me, and to work on making some change after we had developed a really strong rapport.Amy McDuffie 49:10That collaboration piece is just so so important here. So yeah, great,Vin Kachuik 49:16Honestly, that I feel like that kind of ties into, because I saw that a lot with like, college age clients back when I used to teach college too. There's that mindset of, well, I have to only do what I'm told and I can't do. Like, I'd like I can have autonomy. What is that? I don't know her. And, like, I think that really ties into a lot of the struggle kind of jumping ahead of like pursuing the support services in college that we were alluding to back in the webinar. Like, I know that admitting admitting that you need help, too, is also a really hard part of the process. And again, I feel like the autonomy and the trust are the big parts of getting somebody to admit that they need help, like knowing that they're not going to be chastised for it or, you know, like made fun of or torn down or anything like that. Because again, there's just there's so much I hesitate to say fragile ego. But when, when the systems that you've been taught aren't working for you, and you've spent your whole life feeling like you're behind everybody else, you know, where do you develop the self esteem and the self confidence? You know?Hannah Choi 50:32Yeah. All right. And actually, I love that we started talking about that, because that was one of our additional questions that we got last night, pursuing us support services in college. So that's great. We addressed that as well. All right, I'm kind of on the same theme. is starting school, a starting a new school, a good time to start new habits? Or is that too much? What are your thoughts on that?Amy McDuffie 51:00I love that question. I think it's the perfect time to start new habits, because you know, starting a new school or a new school year, I mean, that is that is a fresh start. So I feel like that's the perfect opportunity to try doing some things differently. You know, getting into a different routine, and establishing, you know, those habits, figuring out what works. So yeah, I think it's the perfect time. Hannah Choi 51:27I think Vin's point about like, small, small things, like start small, maybe not overhaul your entire life.Vin Kachuik 51:37But I think another advantage of starting fresh is that there's fewer bad habits to have to break or overcome. First. I mean, that's one of the things that's kind of difficult about habit building, we'd like to think in terms of like building good ones. But a lot of times that means overcoming bad one, yes. Once that we don't even realize or habit. Right? Right, right. So starting in a new situation, you're a little bit more self aware. Sometimes that translates to self conscious, which can be a little overwhelming, but you know, you're more aware of new surroundings and all of that. So I think it's easier to avoid falling back into bad habits and building new ones fresh, as long as you start small.Hannah Choi 52:18Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important to take time to reflect on what your previous experience has been, and what you liked about that, what worked for you and what didn't work for you, and what you want to change in the future. Because if you can spend some time having that conversation with someone who's going to be really supportive and open for that conversation, it can really help to narrow down what you want to start with, like what, what small goals you want to set for yourself. So that self reflection piece is really helpful in that in that instance. Great,Vin Kachuik 52:56Aefinitely a challenge of habit building, though, is taking it not just starting small, but taking a theoretically, I'm just like thinking, I'm thinking of the example of like all the people who are like, you know, New Year's resolutions style habit building of like, I'm gonna start my new diet and go to the gym, and, you know, I'm gonna be perfect and all of that. And it's like, okay, good luck with that, because, like, new skills and habits, you know, and you're like, expecting results in a day and setting super high expectations, and it just doesn't work that way.Amy McDuffie 53:26Yeah. And I think that like, that's a big piece of starting, you know, starting anything new is also looking at, like, you know, what's likely to trip you up? What's likely to get in the way here of, of this working for me, because it's, I think it's really easy for us all to, you know, to set goals. And unless we look at like, really, what are the obstacles? And how do I address those? You know, I think we can not be as successful if we don't look at those pieces too.Vin Kachuik 53:57Reckless ambition, the dark side of motivation.Hannah Choi 54:02I always ask my clients is the goal that you're setting realistic and reasonable, right? Like, be honest, let's look at you know, all of your life experience so far, Is this realistic and reasonable? Because you want to set yourself up for success? Nothing worse than not reaching any of your goals because you've set them too big? Right? Hannah Choi 54:24Um, okay. Here's a coaching question. How often would someone need to meet with an executive functioning coach to make it effective? Once a week, every other week more than once a week? I think well, it just really depends on the client. I think once a week is a great starting place. Sometimes I've done twice a week, maybe broken that larger time down into smaller chunks. What about you guys?Amy McDuffie 54:54Yeah, I do think it's a good place to place to start Excuse me. You know, just depending on what the needs are, and you can always, you know, make adjustments from there.Hannah Choi 55:04I think what it comes down to is consistency. Right? Right. So whatever, whatever you determine is the right amount of sessions or the right duration or frequency. It's the consistency makes a huge difference. Very important with anything, right? Yeah. Yeah, true. Basically with anything.Amy McDuffie 55:23Yeah, keeping that momentum going is so important.Hannah Choi 55:28Yeah, yep. Yep. All right, once a child gets interested in something that they wanted to do, how do you keep them motivated to continue with it, like clubs, clubs or sports, they love the sport and playing, but they don't want to go to practice.Amy McDuffie 55:43Oh, my goodness, this is so familiar, Hannah, just as a parent. So my, my response to this might be a little, a little different. But I just having had personal experience with this in my home with my kids. I, you know, we do things a little differently now. And, you know, when there's interest in, let's say, playing soccer this season, you know, we sit down and have the conversation about what those expectations are, and what it means to commit to doing this thing. You know, there gonna be days where you don't feel like going or you don't want to go, or you're just not as interested at times. But you know, we really talk about is upfront expectations so that we know what we're getting into. And, and the follow through that, like, okay, so you want to do this, and, you know, we're committing to do this for the next couple of months. And that means going to practice and just kind of laying it all out there before, you know, officially signing on to take on this thing. And you know, beyond that, if you decide you don't ever want to do it again, that's totally fine. We can look at other things. But, you know, again, I think it comes down to just having those conversations upfront about the expectations. And, you know, it's another opportunity to look at, you know, look at the why, like, why do you want to do it, and also look at, you know, those opportunities for successes, you know, within whatever the activity they're doing.Hannah Choi 57:14Yeah, my kids, both my kids both play instruments. And so we deal with this a lot. They both been playing for a few years. And so it comes up a lot that they're just like, I don't want to practice. And something that something that is important to me is that it is okay for our kids to have discomfort. It is okay for them to to feel like, this doesn't feel good. And I don't want to do this. But I signed up, I made the commitment. So I have to do it. If we always protect our kids from those feelings, and then say, okay, you don't have to do it. I know you signed up for it. But now you don't have to do it. Because you don't want to. No, like, I think they need to follow through on the commitment that they made. And yeah, they're gonna feel some discomfort. But they're also, you know, like you said, the expectations were set up. So now they need to follow through. And there's so many lessons to be learned in that experience. Yeah, it feels awful. But hey, you're part of a team, or you made a commitment to your teacher or whatever, whatever that commitment is that you made. I do think it is a great opportunity to teach kids about learning about that.Amy McDuffie 58:31Absolutely. And about perseverance, too. So yeah,Vin Kachuik 58:35Yeah, that discomfort really like learning to sit with that discomfort, is what helps you switch your perspective, from have to, to get to, which is very important for keeping up with that consistency. Because if you think of it is just a burden or responsibility, like, I have to go to practice. Yeah, that may not be the fun part. The fun part, maybe the game, maybe you like the sense of competition, you'd like to, you know, high intense energy, or maybe you just like the performing part or playing around with your new instrument or whatever. Practice is hard, but it's what allows you getting to do that is what allows you to get to the fun parts as well. Hannah Choi 59:18Yeah, and be better at the fun part. Vin Kachuik 59:19Yes, it'd be better like it makes it more enjoyable. Hannah Choi 59:23Yeah. Yeah. My dad said to my daughter, he's a musician too. And he said, you know, what the, your motivation should be for practicing is so you don't feel like a jerk at rehearsal when you're the only person who can't keep up with the music. Practice so you feel confident at rehearsal. That's great. Yeah. One of my favorite quotes ever is by a psychologist called Susan David. And if you guys haven't looked into her stuff before, you got to read it, read her things. It's, she's amazing. And she has this quote that, ah, "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And I just love that. And so whenever I'm in a situation where I am feeling uncomfortable, I just remind myself like something good is gonna come out of this, you're going to learn from this, you're going to have some amazing experience or whatever. And it truly is. So, it's good for kids, too.Vin Kachuik 1:00:21of emotionally regulating that I can't stress the breathing enough and hold. Back to those references again. Like if you can't stand the discomfort, a there's either something wrong, you need to, you know, eat some food, drink some water, get some sleep, something like that. But like, if you all those needs are met, then just breathe. It makes it so much better. Just breathe few deep breaths.Amy McDuffie 1:00:45Yep, yep.Hannah Choi 1:00:48All right. Lessons for life. Just breathe, just breathe. Vin Kachuik 1:00:53It's literally a function of living. Hannah Choi 1:00:57Oh, my God, that was so funny when you said that last night. All right. Let's see. Here's, I think this is our last question. All right, my 19 year old son told me he's terrified about trying his hardest only to still fail. In the end. What are we just talking about? It breaks my heart. How do you address issues around motivation that are derived from fear of failure? Yeah. Perfect question to end with.Vin Kachuik 1:01:21Absolutely, yeah. That the way that you combat fear of failure is again, it's that "have to, not get to" that's where the fear of failure comes from. It's from the distance between where you feel you are and the expectations that are set above you. That's where things like shame and doubt just reign supreme, and can get the better of you. So a couple of things to do with that is seeing it less as the end result is the expectation and the doing is more the expectation, finding the value, and the joy in the doing the "Hey, I'm learning how to do this". Again, it comes back to starting small though, you know, do it with low stakes things, if it's a high stakes things thing, like a final paper or a big game or something like that, where it's all on the line. No, that's that's too much. It's very overwhelming. But I think giving like little like bits of like autonomy or responsibility to allow someone an opportunity to fail, and get comfortable failing, and learning from that failure in a low stakes environment. Things like, okay, so you know, you're going to be in charge at here's, here's a house plant, you now have a house plant, here's a living thing that's going to depend on you, here's some instructions for what it needs and how to take care of it. Don't let it try not to let it die, you know, kind of thing. And it's like, you know, find and take the opportunity to find joy and relaxation in doing that task. You know, given the opportunity, like here research, some some, you know, here's some resources on some plant blogs of people who have, you know, what they like to use and what they like to do. You know, I always one of my favorite things that I like learning about new clients is I always try and get at the heart of like, what do you geek? What's the thing that like you geek about and obsess over? Because finding that there's no fear of failure in that? Yeah, they love it too much to fear failure. And so I try and like bring that sense of, like, whether it's joy and or obsession, sometimes there's a fine line between those two things. I try and bring that into other tasks that we're focusing on and be like, how would you approach this? If it was, you know, this video game you love? Or you know, if it was this sport, you play? Or you know, this? I don't know. Kpop band that you're obsessed with? Right? Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and like, you know, because they don't, they don't have any sense of fear or worry over those things. Because they already feel like they're experts at it. Yeah. But it's because it's low stakes, nobody else has seen the expectations of them being perfect.Hannah Choi 1:04:12Yeah, that's great.Amy McDuffie 1:04:14Yeah, I mean, I think that's so important. And I, there's so much to be learned by failure. And I think, you know, like, as a parent, I feel like it's part of my job to to model for my kids that, you know, we all fail, you know, at times, you know, we all make mistakes. And, you know, it's like you said, it's not about, you know, the end result always it's the process of what you've learned along the way. And so I just do think it's really important to model that, you know, this is, you know, you know, it's part of life that that we run into, you know, struggles and, and failure at times. I remember when my kids were when my son was really young. I I read a book, I believe it was called The Gift of Failure. I can't remember the author's name. But it was really wonderful for me to read. And just to kind of look at failure from that perspective, because, you know, of course, we all want our kids to succeed and do well. But there is so much to be learned along the way with that struggle.Vin Kachuik 1:05:18The road to success is paved with bricks of failure, something something like that. Yeah.Hannah Choi 1:05:24Was it the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown?Amy McDuffie 1:05:27No, it was not Brene. Brown. Hannah Choi 1:05:29Okay. Yeah, that's a good one, too. Something that I, that I really find helpful with failure is getting away from that black and white thinking of either success or failure, and how there's, there are so many layers to it, and so many, you might ultimately have failed, but maybe there's some kind of like, win along the way.Vin Kachuik 1:05:51Like you said, Any modeling for people, I think that's an important thing to acknowledge, too. I know personally, like when I was growing up, big time perfectionist, I would collapse and crumble at even the slightest hint of failure or criticism, and it made it so hard to learn and grow. And the really, I think, something that I personally had to do a lot of work for, was accepting that sense of like vulnerability, that feeling of discomfort, that feeling of it's okay to not meet these expectations, it's okay to not be perfect. And the thing that comes with that is you can be so much happier there. It's hard cultivating a lot of that inner strength. And I'm getting a little bit into, like therapeutic mindfulness, kind of talk here. But it, it's, it's ultimately so much better. I think it is that. I think that's the crux of the, what is it? Failure is, the the, or Hannah Choi 1:06:53Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life? Yeah, yeah, yeah.Vin Kachuik 1:06:57That's really what it is. Because that's where you find that sense of like, I'm happy with what I did. Right? Yeah, I'm okay, I am comfortable. And setting those expectations for yourself, obviously, you want to keep learning and growing. But acknowledging what you did along the ways, is a key part of doing that.Hannah Choi 1:07:18And it is so hard to break those negative narratives that we talked about last night and today, and especially like kids who have some kind of diagnosis like ADHD, like they're getting way more corrective messages growing up than then kids without, you know, any any kind of diagnosis. And, and so not only are they dealing with, you know, the way that they feel they're also dealing with how other people are expressing their feelings about them, too, which is, which is a lot to carry and can really explain why it is difficult to deal with this perceived failure. Amy McDuffie 1:07:54Absolutely. Absolutely. Hannah Choi 1:07:58Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I love talking with you guys. Ifeel like I could talk about it all day. Seriously. Yeah. But I'm sure our listeners have some other stuff they need to go to have to they have to see they have to try to complete those reasonable and realistic tasks for themselves today.Amy McDuffie 1:08:26We don't want to be a barrier to them moving forward.Vin Kachuik 1:08:31Yeah, we don't. We don't. And we also don't want to give them too much. Quadrant Four indulgence. Yes. Well, this is educational, so I can just listen to this.Hannah Choi 1:08:41Instead of doing what I need to do, yeah, yes. But if they've managed what's in quadrant one and quadrant three, well, then they have time. They can move it into Quadrant two!Vin Kachuik 1:08:52Or catch up on past podcasts?Hannah Choi 1:08:54Yeah. Yeah. Or some sleep.Vin Kachuik 1:08:58Yeah. To sleep. Always good. Yep.Hannah Choi 1:09:01All right. Have a great day. Amy McDuffie 1:09:04Thank you, you too. Thank you both.Hannah Choi 1:09:08And that's our show for today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I really hope you learned something about motivation. And if you want to watch the entire webinar, you can find the link to it in the show notes. And I also included some links to some of the graphics that we shared during the webinar. You can find out more about upcoming events by signing up for beyond book smarts monthly newsletter, the monthly think or by checking the Events page on the Resources section of our website. If you know anyone who might want to learn about motivation, you can share this episode with them. And you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I'd love to hear from you. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify You can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Thank you. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when the new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Okay, so today we’re getting real. Recently, a coworker shared with me how her friend has long struggled with working as a nurse while also having ADHD. This friend was lucky enough to find a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her, but many are not as lucky. And although ADHD is commonplace in the healthcare space, its challenges are often stigmatized and swept under the rug - creating an epidemic of shame that can feel isolating and overwhelming. After all, imagine what it feels like to constantly help others when you yourself are struggling everyday? To help shed light on this subject, we reached out to an Executive Function coach of ours, Beth Malvino, who coaches two social workers, Lina and Cassie. Together, they bravely shared their stories about the difficulties they’ve faced in managing their own executive dysfunction while supporting others' mental wellbeing. Their stories are powerful and filled with important wisdom around the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and what can be done to overcome them. We explore self-care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live, and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening who has Executive function challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you’ll hear on this episode. NOTE: There is some very light swearing in this episode. If you’ve got any young kids with you who happen to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on healthcare workers, you might want to give them a heads up.Finally, I also wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Send me your episode topic ideas! I’d love to hear from you.In the meantime, here are the show notes from today's episode: Tips For Nurses Managing Their Attention Deficit Disorder:https://blog.diversitynursing.com/blog/tips-for-nurses-managing-their-attention-deficit-disorderA Day in the Life of a Healthcare Professional with Executive Function Challenges:https://www.worksmartcoaching.com/blog/a-day-in-the-life-of-a-healthcare-professional-with-executive-function-challenges8 Tips For How To Thrive As A Nurse With ADHD | NurseJournal:https://nursejournal.org/articles/how-to-thrive-as-a-nurse-with-adhd/ADHD - Workplace Issues:https://chadd.org/for-adults/workplace-issues/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Before I tell you about today's episode, I wanted to share that we have a podcast email now! You can reach out to me at podcast at beyondbooksmart.com Send me your episode topic ideas. I'd love to hear from you. Hannah Choi 00:33Okay, so today we're getting real, not like we haven't been real in the past. Talking about EF challenges is very real. But we're getting extra real today. Recently, our podcast team was having a conversation about how having ADHD impacts people at work. And someone shared that a friend of theirs is a nurse who has ADHD. And she had finally found a position at a hospital that truly supports and embraces her ADHD and all. We wanted to explore the idea of holding a job where you're constantly giving, giving, giving, and often supporting people with EF challenges. While also managing your own EF challenges. We reached out to a coach of ours Beth Malvino, who works as a coach for two social workers, Lina and Cassie. They joined me and Beth to share their stories about the difficulties they face in managing their own executive dysfunction, while supporting others. They'll provide insights into the unique challenges that healthcare workers with ADHD encounter and the work they do to overcome them. You'll hear Beth offer her valuable and rather touching perspective on Lina and Cassie's EF journeys. All three of them share the tools and strategies that Lina and Cassie have found helpful in supporting their executive function challenges. In addition, we explore self care, the limitations for neurodiverse people within the systems in which we work and live and combating that negative narrative that runs through the heads of many people with ADHD. I am sure that anyone listening today who has EF challenges and works in healthcare spaces will really relate to much of what you'll hear today. Hannah Choi 02:29And just to note that there is some light swearing in this episode. If you've got any young kids with you who happened to be super interested in the impact of ADHD on health care workers, you might want to give them a heads up. Okay, now on to the show. Hannah Choi 02:46Hi, y'all. I learned that from Lina. Lina and Cassie and Beth are joining me today to talk about executive function challenges for people who work in healthcare spaces. And Lina is from originally from Texas. And so we were talking about y'all, so I thought I'd try that out today. So, would you guys, would you like to introduce yourselves? Lina, do you want to start? Lina 03:13Sure. Um, hi, I'm Lina. As Hannah said, I'm originally from Texas, but I currently live in Chicago. I work in social work on getting my master's in social work with the concentration in mental health. But I have some background in public administration and policy work, particularly within criminal justice spaces, or like to say the criminal system of injustice just because that's what we have right now. And it's, uh, you know, I work within the realm of mental health and people who've been impacted by that system. So yeah, it's really great to be here with all of you. I'm excited to chat.Hannah Choi 04:01Thank you, and Cassie.Cassie 04:05Hello. My name is Cassie. I am a school social worker slash guidance guidance adjustment counselor. And I don't work at a typical school. I work at a therapeutic day school. So my kiddos have they range our youngest right now is seven. Our oldest is 20. And they range from all kinds of mental health diagnoses trauma backgrounds, emotional behavioral disabilities. So it's funny thinking about kind of our our topic of today is you know, having EF concerns while working in in healthcare but it's like I have EF concerns and I'm surrounded by children who also are very dysfunctional when it comes to EF and also kind of in general. Um, so that was kind of funny to think about that that juxtaposition. Hannah Choi 05:04So yeah, and I really want to get into that today because that is you two are not the only people out there who work in that work and also have executive function challenges. So I'm sure that there are other people who will hear this conversation and be really be able to resonate with or relate to relate with what you have to say. And last, we have Beth, who is, well, Beth, you explain how you know Lina and Cassie, and what your role is in, in the world? Beth Malvino 05:40Sure, sure. So hi, I'm Beth. I've been a licensed clinical social worker for more than 20 years, I have worked in lots of different healthcare settings, mostly hospitals, with different populations of people. I've been in psychiatry, medicine, hospice oncology, I had my own private practice for a while, I ran virtual support groups for grief and divorce during the pandemic. And now I am an executive function coach at Beyond BookSmart. I currently work with Lina and Cassie, they've been my clients for some time now. And so I'm really going to enjoy talking to them today, because they've had such an amazing journey. So I'm looking forward to sharing that and hearing their perspectives from that.Hannah Choi 06:32Yeah, great. I can't wait to hear this too. And Lina, and Cassie, why did you seek out executive function coaching?Lina 06:43Yeah, so I sought out executive function coaching, because I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in 2021. So it was like a year after the pandemic had started. And I didn't start coaching until last year 2022, like I had waited a while. Just because you know, when you're an adult, and you get diagnosed with something that you've had your whole life and things didn't make sense. And you finally got that, I like to think of it as like the lens that you can see through your life and look at all the pieces that didn't fit together. And now you have this lens of information, that you could see more clearly, all of the challenges and triumphs and really weird stuff in your life. It, you know, it can take a while to kind of like, figure out what you need and unmask yourself. And so I started coaching last year, because I really, you know, I read all the books about ADHD and what it's like, but to put things into practice is what really was hard for me identifying how my brain worked and trying out different things, I didn't even know where to start to do that. And so that's why I sought out coaching just because, you know, putting, like, you can rationally in your head know, all these things, you know, read all the books, but it's a whole other thing to put what you've learned into practice. And that's why I sought out coaching. And it's, you know, greatly improved my mental health to even though it's not a mental health service. You know, it's, you know, just being able to put things in practice and learn more and get more information has improved my anxiety a lot just because I know I have different tools and different strategies than I did before. And so yeah, it's it's worked in conjunction with therapy already. That has improved a lot of things in my life and has helped make my work. You know, both in and out of school and in and out of social work a lot better for me.Cassie 09:10So I went, I think I think we started in winter, like December 2021. I think, recently, I'm like, Oh, well, I have a different insurance. Like, let's see if there is a psychiatrist nearby that can like assess me and like, take over my meds and whatnot. So I'm actually hopefully going to be starting that soon. Which would be great. Because there's a number of things, not just the attention and focus and whatnot. But there's other things that I'm like, Oh, I think I want somebody who knows stuff about this to help me figure things out. And that's kind of the same thinking that got me here as well. I sought out coaching because I was miserable. I was As I felt like I was drowning in work. And I couldn't kind of wrap my head around it because I have always been a smart kid, I've never had to work too hard at school. And even like college was mostly fine grad school was mostly fine. But when I started my first big girl salary job with my MSW, I couldn't manage it. Like I knew how to do the tasks that I was supposed to do. That's, that wasn't the issue, the issue was actually just getting them done, starting them and finishing them. So I was always behind on things, I was staying really late at work. I had already gone to my supervisor who is amazing. And she, you know, had given me some suggestions for what works for her and, you know, tried to get me a new planner, and we're like, move my schedule around to see if that helped. And so it's probably been a good more than six months that I'd been like, really aware of the fact that I was just very unhappy at work. And then I finally was like, a kind of, I had to bite the bullet because again, like, I'm used to just coasting through things. I'm used to just being successful with not a lot of effort. And to be like, Okay, no, like, I need help. I'm struggling really, really bad. It got to the point where I was like waking up in the morning and hoping that I would get a text message that say that there was an actual gas leak on campus. And so I didn't have to go in like, because I worked at a residential campus. And so there were no, like, there were no days off. Like it was Monday through Friday, no matter what, no matter if there was a blizzard, no matter if it was a national holiday, like we, we went in. So yeah, so I was I was very, very unhappy and was like, alright, like, it's not, it's not a matter of not knowing how to do it. It's just actually getting my work done. It's not not not knowing how to do it, it's being able to make it happen. So that's why Yeah, and Lina, you said that it's not a it's not a mental health service. But like, honestly, right now, I feel like I have three different therapists in some way, because I have my actual individual therapist that I speak with, like once or twice a month. And then I have my supervisor at work, who is amazing, and supportive and wonderful. And then I also have Beth, and it's like, it's Yeah, I feel like having all of these supports in my quarter has been like, really, really helpful. Lina 12:36So yeah, I, I want to affirm that, like, I know, you know, they're supposed to be different difference between coaching and therapy. But there have been several times where Beth and I and I'm sure it's the same way for you Cassie word, the coaching session does kind of turn intoCassie 12:54Oh, yeah. Therapy. For five sessions, I was just like, crying to her. Like, I don't know why I do this. I'm Yeah. This is hard to like, why is it so hard to just type words into my computer,Lina 13:12Or even like, when the big feelings show up, because you have some big feelings about something and you're just crying about it, you're just like, I don't know how to emotionally regulate.Hannah Choi 13:22It shows you how closely connected our emotions are with our executive functions, and how it is you cannot separate them. And, and so it's really great that you're that you're working with a therapist as well, because then you're able to take things that you learn in each and, and bring them together. And it was also recommend that to my clients, who aren't seeing therapists already.Cassie 13:50It was also really important to me as I was in the process of like, signing up that like, you know, I am, I am a, an MSW, I, you know, I have my license, I like I want to work with somebody who has similar training, because like, I feel like, you know, I kind of like I've seen behind the curtain, like, I know, like, you know, I'm aware of the different theories and whatever and, and, like, I wanted to work with somebody else who also had that same background.Beth Malvino 14:23I have to say that, I think, and I was thinking about this last night when I was sort of preparing for this podcast today, you know, what, what has been really important in in the coaching relationship with with both of you, and I think there's been an element of relatability that I maybe didn't realize how important that was until we all started working together. Because I'm a social worker. I mean, there's there's that capacity to understand even though we We've all done different things like I've never done any of the types of roles that you both are in. But yet I can still empathize because I know what it's like to have to chart, you know, 50 notes in a week and have to, you know, feel to feel like there's 1000 emails that haven't been responded to, and just the whole concept of giving so much of yourself, because that's what we do, you know, we're helpers, we're healers, and feeling as if there's just nothing left, at the end of the day. And when you throw in things like executive font dysfunction and time distortion on top of that, it's just I can only imagine how difficult that must be. Because I know that I have felt that way, in lots of work settings, and I don't have executive dysfunction. And so I can only imagine how difficult that must have been. So I think there's definitely the the idea of being empathetic to that I think, has really helped us to bond as coach and client. And that's been an important part of the process.Hannah Choi 16:12Can we explore that a little, the idea of what you just said about how you have to give yourself all day to people who really, really, really need you. And also, you're giving yourself as a person who is struggling with executive function. And you're likely supporting someone who is also struggling with exec executive function. So how do you like what does that look like? For you? What is? What is? Is that a struggle? And when what does it look like?Cassie 16:47For me, it looks like being transparent, to some degree with my students, there have been so many times where, because in my role, I go into our classrooms, and I lead like group counseling. So we right now we're working on the zones of regulation. But what it looks like, sometimes for me is, like, kind of being explicit, and like, oh, like, that's a really good question, kiddo. But like, I you note, you know, that I want to hang out and chat with you about anything under the sun, but like, right now, I need to focus on finishing this lesson. Or like a kiddo will ask them like, Hey, Miss, can you know, can you come check in with me later? Or can we work on this thing? And like just being very explicit, like, Yes, I will try to remember or I will write it down. But like, like, just kind of like being honest about like, I this is important, and I want to do it, but like, if an emergency comes up, or if whatever, you know, it may not happen, and asking the kids like, hey, help me remember that next time we have group I want to do XYZ? Or, if you see me in the hallway, ask me about this, and then I can let you know when I find out the answer. So it's kind of in some ways, it's it's being honest, and kind of modeling for the kids. And then and then it's also working with my colleagues. Kind of in a more intentional way, also, one of the big benefits that I've noticed and started coaching is just the change in my kind of thinking patterns or my habits. Right now, I am very lucky that I have an awesome clinical intern who is working on her MSW as well. And so oftentimes, what we'll do is, she'll get there in the morning, and I'll be you know, answering emails or whatever. And we'll kind of sit down and like have like a kind of a planning session. We're like, Alright, so today for group, we're going to work on this thing. I don't think Anthony class has finished their worksheet, so we'll finish that up for them. But Dubois class, they didn't finish. So we're gonna move on to this one, we were kind of just like, make a plan for the day. And then we also were like, Alright, so after groups, like what's our priority, like, we really need to finish this assessment, we really need to finish planning for the next two groups. Like it's been really helpful for me to have that conversation with somebody else. until like, right, these are our priorities for the day. That's been something that's been really helpful for me because it's, you know, I can have that conversation with myself in my head, but it's just it there's no external accountability, which was another thing that I really gained benefit from. So it's, what it looks like is modeling it for the kids and then practicing myself, even when I'm not with the kids.Hannah Choi 19:42That's awesome. And then building in the accountability of having a partner and advocating for yourself that you need that partner and that you you know this like that. building that relationship with her I'm sure is invaluable for both of you. Yeah, what about you, Lina?Lina 20:00Um, so there's a few components for how I deal with it in my work. So right now I am working in substance use just to give some background, I work with adults in the west side of Chicago, who, you know, for various reasons, have used substances to cope with their life and their realities and their pain. And, you know, when I work with a bunch of people like this, especially people who are, you know, mandated to treatment by the justice system, or the criminal system of injustice, system, I, you know, struggle a lot with and just not even that, you know, I don't know how many people are aware of how recovery spaces are, but they're pretty rigid, you know, if you're in recovery homes, there's very, like I work with a lot of patients who are in recovery homes, and the rigidity of certain recovery homes just gives no flexibility for a client to have autonomy in their life and in their treatment, and in their program. And I take a harm reduction approach, where, you know, we look at recovery, and look at how do we manage reducing unnecessary harm without trying to eradicate the issue? Right? Because we know it's going to exist, we know it's going to, you know, it has existed for centuries, you know, people have been using substances for centuries, but how do we reduce unnecessary harm that can come from doing that. And what that also means is defining recovery, and however, the individual defines it, right. And sometimes, if a person comes in with a very rigid idea of what recovery can be, and trying to fit themselves into a box, that doesn't necessarily work for them. I resonate with that, because I tried to do that, my whole life, right, with having undiagnosed ADHD, I was just coping all the time and trying to fit myself into boxes that didn't necessarily fit for me, but I was working so hard. And so yeah, I was just working so hard for so long, in spaces that were never meant to fit me. Right. And so a lot of what I've done with clients, and with patients is just like a lot of validation of being like, yeah, this it's hard. There's no rulebook to how life could be. But we have all these expectations within these systems that we're in to meet, unfortunately, and I'm a very systems based person, I always have been, because I've always noticed, that's like one of my ADHD superpowers, I would say is, I've always noticed how systems really suck. And they don't allow people to have choice and autonomy, to do things that is actually better for them, you know what I mean? And so that's how I see it a lot with my clients and with my patients. And even for me, I have to, you know, I'm still in graduate school, I have all these expectations to meet for school, I have all these expectations to meet within my clinical internship, which is doing the substance use work. And one of the things that Beth and I did was, we broke down all the things that I had to do, like we literally wrote it out, being like, you have to do, CSRS T PRs, individual sessions, group therapy sessions, individual notes, group notes, case management, notes, housing notes, all these things. And when you really break it down, it's like, all these expectations, and for what, right? And for what, it's just so exhausting. And so I, you know, I even started doing that with my patients being like, alright, let's look at your recovery program and being like, look at all these expectations, and you're exhausted, like, there are hard things that add to your life, and there's hard things that don't. And then there's hard things that are a little bit of both, and how do we recognize those things that do add to our life? And try to minimize the things that don't and start making things that work better for you. So it's, yeah, I do it, you know, a lot of validation at my work and my job, especially with the clients who were within the criminal system of injustice, because those expectations are just out of pocket. I'm just like, Why does this have to exist this way, especially for this person that already has so many different systems working against them. And in a lot of ways, we as people with executive functioning challenges, work within systems that are working against us too. And that's really challenging and really hard. Yeah.Hannah Choi 24:56And something that I do I just this talk about systems is so interesting because as a person who has executive function challenges, I mean, all people need to build systems for themselves that they can rely on. And when you are a person with executive function challenges, your system is probably going to look really different, and not fit in well, to the existing systems that are already there, which I think is pretty much what you were just saying Lina. And, and it's, I don't know, it's just interesting that, that, that systems can be critical for success. And they can be really limiting when there is no flexibility. And there's no consideration for the variety of needs, that that people have. And that's what's so beautiful about taking the time and, and, and taking the time. That's what's so beautiful about discovering the aspects of yourselves that are strong, and that you can rely on, and how you can use those to support the areas that are that are more challenging for you, and how you're taking, taking the time to really think about it and to really say like, what do I need? And how can I create that for myself. And when you are spending your whole day, supporting other people and giving and giving and giving and giving? It's probably pretty difficult to stop and just really wait, why do I need? And how do I support myself in this time? So do you what do you do for yourself to recover from a really difficult day or manage executive function? I mean, other than, like what you shared already, like is there maybe self care that you do to, you know, to alleviate some of that pressure that I'm sure that you feel, trying to fit into these systems that that are there.Cassie 27:15Something that I have been doing, that my whole family has been doing, ever since the pandemic started. My, my mom, my dad, and my older sister, and I, just the four of us in my immediate nuclear family. We have weekly family video calls. And that actually evolved from way back when the pandemic very first started, my sister reached out to us and was like, I'm really worried about the state of the world can we just do a video call just to check in with each other. And then we really enjoyed it. So we did again, the next night, and the next night, and the next night. So we we I talked to my parents and my sister every single day for, I don't know, four or five months of the pandemic. And then, you know, once I finished grad school, and once I moved out here for my first big girl salary job, we did cut it down to twice a week. And now we're down to once a week. But because we had that kind of foundation of updating each other on every part of our days, because we talked every single day, we just have a much, I think a much stronger relationship and much more open and comfortable relationship just has a whole family unit. And so we talk about a lot of things like we are much more open about our mental health, about our needs. You know, sometimes my sister will talk about how she, you know, I'm feeling really down today, like my depression is pretty bad. Or, you know, we'll joke with mom about how like mom, like, you have undiagnosed ADHD, even though it's sometimes in a joking way, we're much more open about our own struggles and mental health needs and everything. And I think that's been instrumental. For me, I think it's been really, really helpful, just personally, but I also think that it's improved all of our lives just to have that regular communication and that comfort. So for me, family is a really big part of my self care. I know that that's not the case for everyone. For other for some people, like family creates stress, and that's totally valid. But for me, family time has been a really big part of my self care.Hannah Choi 29:33And hopefully for people that sort of their chosen family can step in, and Lina What about you? What do you do to take care of yourself?29:40Man, we're trying to figure that out to be honest. One of the things that my ADHD loves to do is not let me recognize certain bodily cues like eating because I get so hyper focused during the day am my work that I forget to eat, I legitimately don't get those cues to eat. And then it isn't until like three, maybe sometimes two o'clock to three in the afternoon and I'm like, why can't I focus? Oh, you haven't eaten since seven this morning. Like, like I like, it's those things that, you know, really begin to challenge. So lately, self care has been trying to eat more. And just trying to, you know, find certain foods or certain things that I will eat during the day or have access to or that is easier to manage and sort of time myself. That's been hounding me to set an alarm for lunch. And so yeah, like, that's sort of what comes to mind immediately. But, you know, I think for me, too, lately, I've been recognizing how I can't just push through certain tedious tasks anymore. Like I have to, like, in order for me to do the really hard thing that my brain really don't want to do, I got to do something fun before I do it, you know, so I gotta like, read a chapter of the book that I'm reading, or watch a stupid YouTube video or, you know, do something that I actually like doing before I get into this thing, or use the thing that I really like doing as the reward for doing the really hard thing. So I been trying to give myself space to have more fun. And to have more rest and play, and silliness and laughter and being with people that, you know, make me laugh and understand my humor, because as social workers, we got to very wild spectrums of humor. When you're with people who get that humor, it is the best, it's like wild, you would think work notes or need to go be hospitalized or something. But it's like really a good time being with the people that get it and understand the type of work that we're dealing with all day, every day, because it gets really hard. Like, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say that our jobs are easy, because they're not. And it's very, you know, we're in a profession that is severely undervalued. So we have to be very intentional about taking care of ourselves to deal with said systems. And I'm trying to be a lot better about that I will work working on it. It's always a work in progress, but it's a lot better than what it used to be.Hannah Choi 32:49So we're all work in progress, it works in progress. I just, I just had a wonderful experience. On the other night, I got to go to a presentation by a clinical psychologists called Dr. Allison Roy, and she's out in New Hampshire. And she she works she works in with from a perspective of trauma informed care. And she did a presentation on the brain which I'm a total nerd about so I was just like on the edge of my seat the whole night. And she talked about about how we can get out of our the fear center part of our brain like the you know, like the the fight and flight and freeze part and up into our prefrontal cortex where all of our executive function skills are so our thinking brain so we can use that. And she was talking about how this idea of flocking and how flocking is when you you have a flock you have you spend time with people who get you who understand you, you have social connection and and when you do that you're able to nourish the and support your limbic system the emotional part of your brain which really allows you to access your your prefrontal cortex and your thinking part. And she was just talking about there is so much value in finding a flock and so whatever your flock is, like you said, Cassie, your family is your flock and you get so much value from that and Lina, your you know, your fellow social workers who really get you and get where you're coming from. And so I'm just so glad to hear that you both put that in as an value that as part of your self care because according to the brain research, it's really what you do need to do so. And the other thing that she talked about Lina and I'm so glad you mentioned this was the idea of play. And she said it is so important. Why do we stop playing why do we stop having fun and, and and play is a huge component of As our mental health and of just feeling better about ourselves and, and enjoying our lives, and in staying out of that, like the the kind of like, primal part of our brain, and we're able to stay up higher in the in the thinking part. And so it's just glad to hear that you're too you're doing that too.Beth Malvino 35:22I wanted to just piggyback on what what you just said, because it really resonated with me that, you know, we get so what, regardless of whether or not you have any kind of diagnosable executive function challenges, I think we all get bogged down with things that we think we have to plan, you know, we have work and or, you know, parenting responsibilities or things that we have to do in life that we feel like we have to plan these things. And I think for a lot of us, we forget to plan fun. And sort of bringing that to the to the conscious and really, scheduling fun, I think is so important. And I talk about that a lot with with clients, because I find that they get very wrapped up as we all do and the things that they have to do, and not necessarily the things that they like to do.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, and I just I did that a few years ago to it all started where I, my sister in law wanted to go in the water and it was so cold. And I was like I don't want to go in the water is too cold. And she's like, come on just fun. Like, yeah, I need to have more fun. So I decided to try to be a lot more intentional about that. And I and I have noticed a big difference. My kids think I'm crazy. But grownups should not be having that much fun. But I think it really helps. That's a big part of my self care.36:57So I I mean, Lina and I talked about our self care. But I want to hear about from from you and Beth as well.Hannah Choi 37:05That's you want to go first? Oh, wow.Beth Malvino 37:08Self. Yeah, I mean, self care, is something that does have to be intentional for me, I have to remember to do it. Because just, you know, like everyone else, I have things that I have to do. And I try to get those things done. And there are days that go by where I haven't done any self like true self care. And I kind of get mad at myself, like, why didn't I you know, take a moment. And so I do try to be more intentional about the kind of self care that I do. So, recently, we took a trip to Florida, and that we were in Orlando, and they have these electric scooters that you can just kind of, you know, zip around town on and I've never done anything like that. And my kids who are you know, they're teenagers. And so there used to scootering around on different types of machinery. They were all just like jumping on and whizzing down the block. And I was almost like, oh, that I can't do that. Like that's not for me. That's that's not like, that's not okay, why why would I do that I'm not a kid. And then I kind of, I kind of forced myself to do it. The best? Yeah, I had the wind in my hair. And I was flying down the sidewalk and like ringing the bell. And people were stuck on the side. And I felt like a kid again. And that was a very intentional choice that I made to do that. And I'm glad I did it. Now I have those memories too. And now maybe I'm more likely to try that again in a different settings. So I really do try to try to make it an intent, like an intentional decision. Like today, I'm going to do something it doesn't even have to be big enough to be going to a spa like I'm not going to do. But it might be it's a really beautiful day. I'm going for a walk today. I'm just going to make sure that I get some sunshine in today. And I do try to make that intentional kind of schedule that around the other things that I had to plan for that day.Hannah Choi 39:30Yeah, that what I do for myself, though, sort of like main Self Care Act is similar in that I, I practice the strategies that I that I know work for me when I'm in a moment where I'm really having a hard time. So like I have some anxiety so I I make myself practice breathing when I'm not in an anxious state. So that when I am in that state, it's much easier for me to access that and I also Have, I'm working really hard on my negative self talk and, and so I try very hard to talk positively to myself when I'm just doing regular stuff. Like, like celebrating these like super small wins, it doesn't have to be anything big, but just practicing that, that more supportive talk to myself really helps so that when I have made a decision that I'm not happy with or something happens, that didn't go as I expected, it does come a little bit more easily to me to say something nice to myself instead of saying something mean. So that's the practice of it when I don't need it is is a huge thing for me. And then also, spending time with other people is absolutely number like probably like other than the practice, that's the most important thing for me. And exercise to I need to exercise if I don't exercise I always like why do I feel like crap this week? Oh, because I did not prioritize that. So yeah. Thank you for asking Cassie. It's a it's a it's a conversation that more people should have. Because in, I think because in having those conversations, you can really learn a lot from what other people do for their self care. And it doesn't always look like going and getting a massage. Like if I go get a massage, I feel guilty that I went and got a massage. And so now I don't feel good at all. It's yeah, it doesn't always look like bubble baths or whatever. So yeah.41:27Yeah, like I just wanted to piggyback off of that is just like, lately, I've been trying to intentionally remember that I can do things because I can like, and not because I have to justify it. Like, that's been really, you know, I've always felt like I've had to justify everything I do, like justify a feeling or justify needing to do this or just doing that. And I'm just like, No, I can go get an ice cream cake. Because I can I'm an adult, I could make that decision if I wanted to. Like if I want to, and I don't need to justify it, if I want a massage, I don't need to justify getting a massage. If I want to do this, I don't have to, I could do it because I can and not because I have to justify it. So I've been trying really hard to do that more often. And like, you know, if I want to make a nice meal for myself, I can do that and not feel like oh, you have to do it. Because you have to have a reason like, No, I don't have to have a reason all the time to do the thing I want to doHannah Choi 42:31just giving yourself permission to just do it.Beth Malvino 42:35Because you deserve it. Yeah. And that's part of42:40that's another hard part to get your wrap your head around. Because, you know, when you're diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, you know, you were invalidated a lot as a child for things that, you know, you needed. But, you know, by, you know, oh, you're just too sensitive, or Oh, you're just too much or, or you're just this or just that and like, you know, going through this process of like, No, you do deserve good things you do deserve the things you need to play, it gets okay to have your needs met. That's, that's been a big part of this whole journey, I would say,Beth Malvino 43:17Yeah, we talk about that a lot. I think when you're diagnosed, as an adult, it kind of brings another layer of challenges. Because you have, you have to fight some negative narratives. And Hannah, you were just talking about, you know, the negative talk that goes through your head, you have to fight that, you know, sometimes you have to fight years of that, whether it was heard, you know, from other people, or whether it's things that you're saying to yourself. That's, that's really hard, it's hard to change habits, when what's going on in your head is still, you know, that negative loop of I can't or I'm not good enough, or I don't deserve or I'm broken. And so, you know, we talked about coaching versus therapy, sometimes there is that overlap of you know, how do I how do I get past? How do I change that negative loop in my head so that I can, you know, work with the brain that I have and Cassie we weave cast came up with one of the best I don't know if it's a metaphor, or just the best Phrases She came up with one of one of the best phrases and I still use it today with with all my clients is your, you know, part of coaching is rewriting the manual for your brain. And that act just really spoke to me when when she said that and I i still repeat it all the time because it's so true. It's not about fixing what's wrong. It's about working with But you have Yes. And so I think that, you know, it takes an awful lot of courage to ask for help. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I really give a lot of credit to both Lina and Cassie for reaching out, because it's not easy. And we're, you know, they're both extremely emotionally intelligent women who, you know who work in the field, I think it's, I think that in some ways makes it harder, you know, people in social work, and maybe even in healthcare in general, we're there to help other people, and we're good at it, and maybe not so good at kind of looking back at ourselves or looking at ourselves in the mirror and saying, Well, what do I need help with. So I just want to acknowledge that it really takes an awful lot of courage to do what they've done, and to be on this journey, and to have to have been open to this journey, which both of them really are.Lina 46:07Yeah, I want to say something, too you know, because within the realm of, I don't know how many people know how the intricacies of healthcare works. But, you know, there's this thing called evidence-based practice. And sometimes evidence-based practice can be at odds with us people with executive functioning challenges, because a lot of times the evidence that they're basing their stuff off of doesn't include people like us in the research. So I have a hard time navigating, especially in mental health spaces, that rely on evidence based practices. But we're working with populations that were never included in the research for, you know, and I, as a person with ADHD, and you have challenges working with a lot of people with ADHD and you have challenges that have either gone overlooked, undiagnosed or invalidated. I'm struggle a lot, by even my own peers within the social work and mental health field, because not only do we have to navigate the challenges of working with our patients, but we also have to navigate the challenges of working with peers that don't see that. And just because our approach is different, doesn't mean that it's wrong. And just because it's, yeah, and just because it's, you know, you may not understand it doesn't mean that we are wrong in approaching our work differently in that way. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of complexities with that,Hannah Choi 47:55and you're doing all of that navigating, while managing your executive function challenges. You're not doing that in this vacuum, where you know, where you're just like, skipping around, remembering everything, and not finding anything stressful. So it's, it's a lot, and I commend you, all, all three of you for you know, the work that you've done and continue to do. And it's, it's, I'm just so glad that you are here today and talking about this. And, and, and I really hope that lots of people hear this and are able to really relate and hopefully feel validated, that validation is huge. And it's, it's, it's a right, Lina, I can imagine that maybe if you if someone validated your perspective, and validated where you're coming from, it would probably feel a lot better than Lina 48:57I probably would have gotten diagnosed as a kid instead of an adult. You know, yeah, I probably would have been heard. You know. So there's, you know, there's a lot of challenges and complexities within that. And I don't want to sound like a Negative Nelly, because I do think evidence based practices has its times in place, but, you know, that's where the creativity of meeting patients and clients where they're at, and truly validating their experiences in their life and having that relational approach rather than just purely scientific, purely medical, purely. Whatever bullshit they like to throw up.Hannah Choi 49:48The systems that that exist, exist, partially because there's not enough funding, and there's not enough people and there's not enough attention. There's not enough support. There's not had enough research, there's not enough validation of the troubles that there are out there. And so it is difficult to provide individual support when you are not supported yourself byLina 50:13Oh, yeah. And that's, Hannah Choi 50:15I know we could talk about that for days. Lina 50:17Yeah, as a systems based person, you know, we have the resources to do those things, we just choose as a system not to do it. You know, and that's, you know, I know, I say, I'm in social work, but my first master's was in public administration, and, you know, we have a bunch of the resources to do it, it's just we, politically and power wise choose not to, and that's really, and we're working within that system all the time. I'm sure Cassie see's just how, you know, funding schools and funding children's programs affects her and her job and what she's limited and doing. And I know, I struggle a lot with I work with a lot of people who are on Medicaid, you know, like, it's, and that's, that's severely limiting to what they need, and they have a lot of my needs. So it's, you know, it's a system thing too, and we have to constantly navigate those complexities.Hannah Choi 51:13Yeah, that's a lot. And the people that you work with, I'm sure are so grateful that you have made the choice in your life to do the work that you're doing. And, and that you I'm sure your your work has been so positively impacted by that effort that you have put in, to reach out for help for yourself, and to do the work that you've been doing and will continue to do to support yourself, which just improves the support that you're able to give the people that you work with. So let's explore that a bit. I would love to hear from you, Beth, about your experience working with Cassie and Lina,Beth Malvino 51:53I feel so honored to have been part of Cassie and Lina's journey journeys. And just to me, they're they're huge executive function success stories. They blow me away with how they manage and navigate their lives, their work. And I wanted them to shine. And so I'm glad that I'm here to kind of hear to hear them talk about these things. Because it also validates the fact that they they've done so much work. I mean, I love talking about people's journey, especially when they when they come to the end. And this is by no means the end of a journey, not like they're still on the journey. But just having beared witness to it has been really, really wonderful for me, and I I just, I'm so glad that I could be here to, to hear them to, you know, to talk about it. And I don't know if it's okay with them, I'd love to share some of the things that I've seen just in terms of their coaching journey. Oh my goodness, I mean when I first started working with Cassie, I'll just start there. She She was really struggling, she was emotionally spent. She doesn't didn't understand why she why she was leaving late every day she couldn't plan or prioritize. I think structuring her unstructured time was one of the biggest hurdles she she was experiencing there was a lot of procrastinationCassie 53:57My own brain would distract me, I'd be in the middle of a task of like, oh, I wanted to do this other thing. And then I would do that other thing, and then not finish the original task.Beth Malvino 54:06So there was a lot of that going on. Transitions were also really hard and just getting distracted, doing one thing and being distracted by another. Even just simple things. And you know, this goes back to what Lina was saying about remembering to eat lunch, just basic needs, sleep, food, hygiene, you know, those kinds of things. I think sometimes people forget that without that your executive functioning kind of falls apart. And so you have to kind of go back to basics and say, you know, what do I need right now Why am I feeling this way? Could it be because you haven't had lunch or you didn't sleep well or you stayed up on your phone till three in the morning? Just Doom scrolling, you know, is there. There's there are reasons that these things happen. So It just in terms of Cassie's journey, you know, I've watched I watched her go from sort of this almost despondent person who was really not happy in her role in her life and felt just things were very much out of her control. And then she kind of shifted, she changed jobs. And that shift made a huge difference for her in everything, her demeanor her affect her mood, I mean, it was such a big change, because I saw her finally doing something that she really truly loved. And from that came so many other amazing changes for her. She she was, for a while she had been using a thought collector, you remember the thought collector. So the thought collector was like a is basically a notebook and just a sort of list, a running list of things that she had to write stream of consciousCassie 56:09or even consciousness, it could because like I said, when I would be like, Alright, I need to write this note, I need to summarize a 45 minute individual therapy session, go. But then as I was having like, oh, yeah, my kiddo asked me to reach out to her mom, or my, you know, I have to send this email. And so in the middle of this hard job that I didn't want to do, I would remember a quicker, easier job. And then I was like, Oh, let me just do that real quick. And then I would get distracted by looking for a worksheet related to this topic. And then I would get, so my thought collector was kind of like a brain dump of like, okay, I know, this is important. I don't want to forget it. I'm gonna write it down. And then I'm gonna keep doing I don't want to do.Hannah Choi 56:45Yeah, that's great.Beth Malvino 56:47And a lot of that. I remember even during the early sessions that we had, it was kind of almost reactive, you would look at the thought collector and say, Okay, what, what have I not done, that I should have done this week. And let me get that done first. And so it was very sort of reactive in that in nature. Like, let me let me finish what I haven't done that needs to get done. And then after a while, things kind of shifted where you were, you could take a more proactive stance, and begin to plan ahead and begin to prioritize. So instead of looking back at what you hadn't done, you were able to look forward and look at the thought collector and say, What do I need to do? Going forward? What do I need to do this week? That was a big shift, the way you document and your notes even changed. And it was not a big change. But there was something that you had tweaked, that made it easier to document for yourself. It was the way that you were copying and pasting. Yes, some of your notes and just a small change, like that made a huge difference. Yes.Cassie 57:53Micro optimization. Yes.Hannah Choi 57:56Yeah. And I think that people don't recognize the, the, how that huge, that tiny, tiny, tiny little change can have such a huge impact. It's like, have you guys read Atomic Habits by James clear, he talks a lot about how like, if you just make like 1%, like a boat, if there's a ship, and it's going in this one direction, it makes a 1% change turn or one degree turn, I mean, then it's actually going to end up in like a really huge, different place. But if you never make that change, you'll just keep on going straight. And so that giving value to those small changes that can make a really big difference.Beth Malvino 58:34Absolutely. Yeah, I think just I've also just been really amazed at Cassie's ability, ability to self-regulate, when she because she works with a population that is really not regulated. And so I asked her all the time, I mean, she gets physically assaulted at work. And then she'll come to session and be like, oh, you know, I got hit today. And it's kind of like, just, it's almost like it's not, it doesn't affect her or she doesn't take it in. And she's still able to, to cope and do the things that she wants to do that day, and it doesn't get under her skin. And I've always been amazed by that. Because self regulation is one of the hardest executive function skills to master and especially if you're working with people who are not, not regulated, that can be a really big challenge. So she just has that amazing ability to do that.Hannah Choi 59:38That's great. So tell me all about LinaBeth Malvino 59:40and Lina, Oh my gosh. We, Lina says she's a verbal processor. I struggle because our sessions typically go way over and I did and I'm complete Part of that because, you know, I'm because I love talking to her. And because we end up talking about things that you know, are so relatable. And so it's not uncommon for us to go over our time limit. You know, I think, Lina we have, we have spent a lot of time talking about the inner narrative. Lina, I think I said this before that, you know, she was diagnosed as an adult. And so she, she brought with her some of those negative inner loops that tend to go through your head. And so we do spend a lot of time on that, which does bring a therapeutic component to coaching, but we're always able to relate it back to executive functioning. And so, but that that's all part of it, you know, we only have one brain, right, and the the toll that executive dysfunction takes on a person emotionally, has to be acknowledged, it can't be compartmentalized, you can't just talk about my challenges with EF skills, and also talk about the fact that I'm anxious, depressed and sad, they go together. And so there's a lot of overlap. And so we do talk about that a lot. And one of the things that I think she mentioned it, you know, remembering to eat, for example, it's just a basic need, right? We, I think a lot of us just take it for granted, like, Okay, you could skip lunch and feel fine. But when you have executive function, challenges, skipping lunch, could mean not functioning at all later in the day, and maybe not realizing how much of an impact that that has on you. So we do talk about that a lot. And remembering to put those things into her like scheduling fun, like, I need her to schedule lunch. I tell her, it's as important as breathing as if think of it as you know, medication, or insulin or something that you need. It's not just a nice thing to have, like you're not optional, to fulfill yourself and replenish yourself. So we talk about that a lot. And I'm also blown away by Lina 's ability to self-regulate, because she's working with some people who are seriously traumatized, and have, you know, dual diagnosis and a lot, a lot of stuff going on in their lives. And I'm in all of the fact that she is able to give so much of herself. To them, despite having challenges with with some of those same things like self regulation is is very hard, you know, big feelings are hard to navigate. And as a social worker, it's so much easier to navigate that with other people. Yeah. But not with yourself. And so it's, it's what it's a balance. And so we talk about that a lot, just being mindful of how she's feeling. Because it's very easy to distract yourself with how somebody else is feeling. One of the things that Lina has done in coaching, which is just incredible is she has utilized workspace sessions in a very unique way. And for those of you don't know workspace is one of the it's it's kind of, it's a website that Beyond BookSmart runs, where if you have something to do, and it doesn't matter what it is you sign up for a session and you have a person there, who is there to help pull you through it and to monitor how things are going and to be your cheerleader. And to give you some tips. And it sounds kind of simplistic, but it really does work. Having that external accountability of having another person there is very helpful. And so one of the things that Lina has done and I've talked to other clients about this because it's worked so well for her is she was able to literally master task initiate by scheduling sessions very carefully during her week. So on Sunday, she would use a workspace session to tackle chores or get all her cooking done. Can I talk about Mount Lina, is that okay?Lina 1:04:48I figured it was gonna come up. Yeah, okay, so we'll talk about Mount Lina. Yeah, you want to tell everyone what that lien is? Mount Lina is this corner of my bedroom. Where am I dresser is and you couldn't see the top of the dresser for months, because it's just a mountain of doom. Like just a mountain of doom lay like that's the best I can describe it just of clothes of random things that somehow made its way to the top of my dresser and I couldn't see my dresser for since I moved into this apartment, which was in 2021, up until earlier this year. Hannah Choi 1:05:37Congratulations! Lina 1:05:39Yeah. So Workspace helped me tackle Mount Lena. And it only took like, a day. And I was just like, Why? Why am I like this,Hannah Choi 1:05:48I had a client who, who had the same, she also had a mountain. And it was a desk at the bottom of her stairs in her living room. And so we did that I just sat with her during an entire session, and she cleaned it off. And she did it. And so that's the idea of body doubling, which, which Beth you didn't name but the body doubling is a super effective strategy for task initiation, especially for people with ADHD. And there's, there's like YouTube, you can go on YouTube, and just search for bodily to ebbeling. And they'll be like someone cleaning your closet out.Beth Malvino 1:06:23You know, one of the things with Lina that I've, I've really seen, because a lot of our sessions have been focused on that internet, you know, negative narrative that's been running through her head, is her ability to take risks. And to you know, for example, looking, thinking about relocating and going on job interviews, and just, I mean, it's, it's terrifying to think about moving from one city to another. And that can often be an obstacle to task initiation is fear. And she's really, really pushed past that. And she's, she's doing it,Lina 1:07:05you know, it sucks, having to really examine the things around you, and yourself, and your internal narrative to be like, Oh, this is what I've had. And this is what I know. And it's comfortable, but it's not working anymore, and having to do things differently, and having to really be like, No, this is what I really need. And that being at odds which with what you thought you needed. And there's a grief in that there's a sadness in that. And there's a lot of yeah, just because it's good to make these changes doesn't mean that it doesn't feel shitty, while you're doing it. So it's, there's been a lot of that, tooHannah Choi 1:07:51And, and it can, it can, I know, like for myself, like it can, making doesn't matter the size of the change, just recognizing like, this, this thing that I've the way that I've been doing, it has not been working, whether it's like, I don't know, I used to keep a grocery list on a piece of paper. And now I use any list. Like just recognizing like this system that I that I've been using for so long. It's actually not that great. And admitting that and not beating yourself up over it and saying, Okay, let me be open to something new, and then trying the new thing. Can really that's difficult work to do whatever the size, whatever the size is.Lina 1:08:32Yeah, yeah, like there have been definite things like, I was furious when I discovered that the dictate speech to text tool exists in Microsoft Word this whole time, that could have made my life so much easier if I had just known about it. Now, if I had known that I was a verbal processor, you know, I could have just spoken and wrote all my papers that way. But no, I didn't know that. Or, you know, I am so happy I have a Google Home assistant now because that thing helps me out so much. When it comes to like needing to verbally process I can just say hey, I won't say it now. But I can add this to this list, like when I remember it, and then I have it in my phone because it recorded it like my Costco list or Trader Joe list, my regular grocery list or my Home Depot list or this or that, you know, we're Amazon list like I can just remember. Like, I can just say it, it'll record it and then I don't have to remember it anymore. And I don't have to feel like I you know, because once it's out of the mouth, it just goes poof in the brain. Like it's just gone.Cassie 1:09:41Like, like your Google Assistant is like a digital version of my thought collector.Lina 1:09:46Yes. Yes.Cassie 1:09:50I use my Alexa more often for alarms and time-awareness. Yes, I do that to like, hey, in 30 minutes, remind me to take the stuff out of the washer or I do do that too times so that I can actually go and take the trash out before midnight, you know, thatLina 1:10:05Or remind me to put the wash or the laundry that's in the washer and the dryer so that I don't have to rewash it again, because I forgot. Because yeah, like I, I have to tell myself to do that, or, you know, it helps a lot with you know, I sleep with brown noise at night nowCassie 1:10:24Me too! Brown noise is better than white noiseLina 1:10:28It's so much better. And I it's so much more soothing to me. And so I listen to brown noise and that helps me out a lot. And, you know, I have a hard time waking up in the morning. I am not a morning person, I I've come to accept this fact about myself after years of trying to become a morning person. But what helps me wake up in the morning is turning on lights, like I'm very light sensitive. And so I tell my Google to turn on my bedroom lights at a certain time in the morning, like, Hey, turn on the bedroom lamp at such and such time, like at 6:30. And it'll do that and I'll turn the lights on before I put my alarm so that it's sort of like a wake, go Yeah, like a gradual thing. So it's not as terrible as the way I was waking myself up before getting a really loud alarm clock, putting it in my kitchen. And it it literally sounded like one of those loud school bells, like old 1950s school bells. And it was the worst way to wake up because it was just so abrasive, and it made me get out of bed, which I didn't want to do. And yeah, just like being more gentle with how you do things. Because all the harsh ways that I was doing number four just weren't working.Beth Malvino 1:11:40You know, what you're you're both of you are kind of capturing is that it's sort of the essence of what we try to do. And in coaching to in which both of you have really just navigated beautifully is the idea that it's not about trying harder. It's about trying differently. And I know I say that a lot. I still say that to both of you at times. But I say that just in general, that's sort of like a mantra that I have. Because that's really what it's about. It's, you know, the systems and the tools that you were using or didn't have before. You know, it's it's not about just working harder or putting in more efforts. It's about learning new strategies and new tools and finding what works for you and what works for you may not work for someone else. But that's okay. And to kind of become comfortable with that idea that I just need. I just haven't yet figured out what tools work for me. And both of you have worked so hard over the course of your journey in coaching to figure those things out, which has just been phenomenal and so amazing for me to witness.Hannah Choi 1:12:57Well, I could literally talk about this all day, but I actually have a client 12:30, speaking of being able to eat thank you so much for joining me and having this really really really important conversation. And it was really lovely for me to listen to hear to listen to your stories, and, and I appreciate your honesty and your openness. And I know that, that our listeners will really appreciate that too. And, and Beth, thank you so much for joining us. And then providing the coach perspective. And also social worker perspective. It's, it's been it was really, really enrich the conversation. So thank you so much. Beth Malvino 1:13:40My pleasure. Lina 1:13:40Thank you. Hannah Choi 1:13:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation. As we talked about in this episode validation is a huge part of feeling better about the challenges we face. And we really, really hope that someone out there feels validated after hearing these shared struggles. You are not alone. Listen to what Lina shared about why she wanted to be on the podcast and why she became a social worker.Lina 1:14:11You know, I think it comes down to because I love people and I love creating spaces and holding space for people who don't feel like they belong or who don't ever feel validated just because I think most of my life, I felt that way. And yeah, it's, you know, it's really important, even if it's in the smallest of ways, or in ways that seem insignificant. Nothing is ever insignificant, I think.Hannah Choi 1:14:44If you know anyone who might really relate to Lina's and Cassie's stories, please share this episode with them. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Please reach out to us at podcast at beyond booksmart.com You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

If you’ve been listening to Focus Forward for a while, you know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on teens and adults - but what about the younger kiddos? While we tend to think about how Executive Function skills impact us later in life, these skills do start developing in infancy. I thought it would be helpful to explore what Executive Function skill development looks like in young children, how we can better support them and ourselves in this critical stage of development.In today’s episode, we’ll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you’ll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting Executive Function skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And, guess what? She’s also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you’ll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie, and Mariam are all Executive Function coaches with Beyond BookSmart and bring their coaches’ perspective to the conversation. I know you'll enjoy learning from their expertise as much as I have! Here are some resources related to our conversation:A Guide to Executive Function - Harvard University Center on the Developing ChildPeg Dawson’s Smart but Scattered BooksChild Mind Institute Guide to Executive FunctioningExecutive Function Skills by AgeDownloadable Guides by Age from Harvard UniversityFocus Forward Ep 6: What Does Life Changing Executive Function Support (Really) Look Like? Perspective from a mom with kids who have executive function challengesContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18If you've listened to focus forward for a while, you'll know that many of our episodes so far have been focused on older kids, our teens and college age students. We've covered mental health, coping skills, social skills and college challenges. While we tend to think about how EF skills impact are older children, these skills do start developing in infancy. Babies' interactions with adults help them learn to focus their attention, build their working memory, and regulate their reactions to the things they experience. Everything is new, so they need to learn how to manage at all. As they grow, young children begin to learn planning, flexible thinking and attention. And as a parent or caregiver of young kiddos you might look at them and think "Do they have any executive function skills at all?" They're developing, and rather unreliable, EF skills require a lot of patience and understanding on our part. As I talked about before in my cognitive flexibility episode, it can help so much to learn about EF skill development. And in doing that, we can recognize that children's EF skill development is nowhere near where ours is. I thought it would be helpful to explore what EF skill development looks like in young children, how we can support them by providing tools that help and how we can support ourselves by understanding where they are in their EF skill development. In today's episode, we'll learn about this topic from three people who have a depth of insight and experience. First up, you'll hear from Maria Ares, who joined me to talk about supporting EF skill development in the littlest ones in our lives. Maria is a speech language pathologist at a public preschool. And guess what? She's also my sister! After my conversation with Maria, you'll hear from Stephanie Regan and Mariam Mahmoud, who joined me to talk about elementary-aged kids. Both Stephanie and Mariam have worked in elementary education, and have lots of experience supporting young children. Maria, Stephanie and Mariam are all EF coaches with Beyond BookSmart. And they bring their coach's perspective to the conversation as well. And bonus if you have watched our webinar, How to Reduce Conflict and Transform Your Parenting Through Executive Function, you'll recognize Mariam's voice and wisdom. And if you haven't watched it, you can find the link in the show notes. It's packed full of executive functioning skill approaches, and tips for reducing conflict with our kids. And hey, I'm the host of that, too. All right now on to the show. Hannah Choi 03:09Hi, Maria. Thanks for joining me today.Maria Ares 03:11Hi, Hannah. Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 03:13Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Maria Ares 03:16Sure. My name is Maria. And I'm a speech language pathologist and a public preschool where I work with kids who are aged three, four and five. And I also work for Beyond BookSmart wearing many hats, and quite a bit of coaching and coach development and different roles throughout my time with Beyond BookSmart. Hannah Choi 03:35Great. And you're my sister!Maria Ares 03:38I am. Yes, fun fact.Hannah Choi 03:42So you are quite well versed, I would say at working with kids under five or five and under. And I was just talking with someone the other day who was surprised to hear that executive function skills are like they start developing even at birth, and you know, start to show up at written really young eight, you know, at really young ages. So, what do executive What does executive function look like in a kid who's under the age of five? And what are some challenges that might come up?Maria Ares 04:18Yeah, so pretty much every developmental milestone has some sort of executive function skill behind it. But what executive function challenges look like at this age is pretty much everything. Basically, every executive function skill needs to be supported in preschoolers. I would say that almost every preschooler has difficulty with some if not all executive function skills, and that's developmentally appropriate and that's what we're here for, you know, to teach them and guide them and help them figure out you know, these these little skills that help them be people that can do things.Hannah Choi 04:58Yeah, and as caregivers of children, it can be really frustrating because we're coming from a place of having really well, maybe not really great executive function skills, but more fully developed executive function skills. And so it's can be really hard to understand like, why can't they just fill in the blank?Maria Ares 05:16Absolutely. And there's so many blanks you can fill in there.Hannah Choi 05:20All day, every day. And I love that you said that it's developmentally appropriate. Like, that's totally normal. I mean, our frontal cortex, that prefrontal cortex does not finish the finish developing. And we're seeing that you can still make improvements on your executive function skills after your mid 20s, which is about when the prefrontal cortex kind of is finished developing. So obviously, a kid who is little their prefrontal cortex is just getting going,Maria Ares 05:52Absolutely, yeah, they're in the earliest, earliest stages of being able to, you know, show and develop a lot of these skills. And that's really what a lot of early childhood curriculum is centered around is sort of building up the skills that you need, and also the social emotional piece that goes along with executive functioning, and sort of how you can use those skills to keep learning and growing.Hannah Choi 06:18Yeah, and so I imagine that when parents feel it, parents might feel like there's not enough academics going on, it's in a preschool setting. But really, at that point, there's, it is really important to focus on that social, emotional and executive function, skill development. Maria Ares 06:37Absolutely. You need to be able to learn how to learn before you can start learning and being able to use your developing executive function skills to you know, complete different tasks in the classroom, make a project, follow directions, all those things are so important to academics and academic development, but you really can't make much progress academically, if you don't know how to learn first, Hannah Choi 07:01That reminds me of the idea of metacognition, where you in, in order, like as in, which is actually like pretty much the last executive function skill to fully develop. And the idea of metacognition is like learning how we learn, learning about our own brains and how our own brains work. And so it's kind of the same idea like these, the little kids can't really learn the academics until they learn just how to function with other people.Maria Ares 07:30Absolutely, yeah. And that metacognition piece is something that I think a lot about in my teaching. And I tried to help kids remember that everybody learns differently, and that everybody has different strengths, and everybody has different things that they need to work on. I really try often, after a task to ask, "Was that tricky for you? Or was that easy for you?" And then talk about why because starting to build those metacognitive skills, and understand that everybody's brain works really differently, I think is really important. So they can get to know themselves as a learner. And as a person.Hannah Choi 08:10I was just talking with my college client of mine the other day, and we were talking about how exactly that about how, if you have never been taught to notice how you experience things. And notice what like, what's tricky, what's easy. And then you can figure out the why if you've never been taught that, then well, first of all, it's never too late to learn that. But you've really missed out on some really great opportunities to, like learn about your own learning. So I love hearing that you do that with such little kids, because it is something that you have to practice. And I feel like as an adult, I don't remember learning that as a child, I don't remember learning, reflection, and to really think about how I do things and why I do things. And so it's it's great to hear that you're teaching that that early.Hannah Choi 09:07Right and I feel like as a kid, I had an idea of what should be easy and what shouldn't be hard and that wasn't always what I found. And I think that making it an individual thing can really help with self esteem because like Oh that one thing is supposed to be easy, but it's actually really hard for me. If you get if you if you get rid of that whole "is supposed to be easy piece" and think about you as a person and whether it's easy or hard for you that I think that can really help develop a you know, a stronger sense of selfHannah Choi 09:44And comparing yourself to yourself. This used to be hard. And now it is getting easier for me, instead of comparing yourself to other other kids, other people around you teaching kids to learn to compare themselves to themselves and not to anyone else and learn about how they learn. It's also a really great lesson for parents to learn, too. I imagine that let's look at your child's development, your child's progress, just compared to where they've come from, and not necessarily against any other children. Maria Ares 10:18Oh, yeah, totally, especially if there's siblings on the picture. Hannah Choi 10:21So the you I mean, you are saying that there are executive function challenges in pretty much every area off the top of your head? What are some of the most common would you say that you see in your, in your practice in your classrooms? Maria Ares 10:36Yeah, something that first comes to mind is like multi step directions. This can be really hard. attention span, understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses. Problem solving can be really challenging for some kids, and understanding of time is a huge one.Hannah Choi 10:57So do you think that executive function skills are something that parents, like, should spend time working on with their kids? Or are they just going to naturally evolve?Maria Ares 11:08I think the best thing for parents to do is to do a lot of modeling, modeling of your language modeling of planning, talking about the process for things, talking about how you can be present so that you can pay attention. But not you know, not. But I don't think that parents need to be specifically practicing any of these things, because like, we were saying it's developmentally appropriate for kids to still be working on that. But some things that I think can be really helpful are like before doing errands, you can talk about the plan, you know, each thing that you're going to do, and whether it will take a short time or a long time. And then when you're talking about time, I think making it relatable can be really helpful. So while two minutes, I mean, they don't really understand numbers, they also don't really understand time very well. So saying something like this will take as long as it takes to brush your teeth. Or this will take as long as one episode of Masha and the Bear, or this will take as long as it takes to drive to your grandparents' house. And then also give them the number to go along with that. So they start to learn, okay, five minutes is the kind of short time, you know, doesn't take me very long to do something that takes five minutes. But then an hour is like my entire lifetime, a super long time. So then just using those examples, and using that modeling can start to build the foundation of, you know, understanding time management and sort of what we can fit into certain blocks of time. Another tool that can be helpful, is if your child really struggles with multi step directions, or like a multi step plan, just writing out a super quick visual, with maybe a little picture of everything that needs to happen. So maybe they need to put on their socks, put on their shoes and wash their hands or something, just drawing a little picture of each of those and then helping them sort of check it off when they're done with it can really help with the planning and the executing of a of a project or just a multistep task.Hannah Choi 13:22And if someone is not an artist, are there resources online, I'm imagining you can grab some clipart from somewhere.Maria Ares 13:33Yeah, for sure. There's lots of different resources out there. I'm sure there's lots of free resources, but less than pics is a really great website for getting pictures like that. But honestly, you know, you don't need to be an artist stick figures are great. Doodles are great. I think just getting the idea down on on paper or on a whiteboard or something can be helpful.Hannah Choi 14:00And it shows like if you draw it, then it shows your child that it's that it's okay, if you don't have really great art skills.Maria Ares 14:07There is another opportunity to talk about that.Hannah Choi 14:12I love it. That's great. So what would you say that success looks like at this age? And I know that's, I know that's different for everybody. But would you what do you see first as success in that age group?Maria Ares 14:28Yeah, success can look different for every one. Because there are so many skills that our earliest learners are building. For some kids success might look like exclaiming that was easy, which shows that they're thinking about how tasks feel for them, you know, is it easy, is it hard? Success could look like executing both parts of a two step direction. For another success might look like remembering to put pants on.Hannah Choi 14:58Reminds me of a when I interviewed Fran, she said, kids with executive function challenges sometimes forget to put underwear on. So she said success in my house is when they remember to put underwear on.Maria Ares 15:12Yeah, it's it's hard to find a developmental milestone in early childhood that doesn't include executive function skills in some way.Hannah Choi 15:20 Yeah. And it also, something that comes up a lot for us as coaches is the idea of looking for those small wins. And, and it didn't, and especially with this little, these little guys, it's not going to be these huge, you know, they're not gonna like write a paper, and then have, you know, have all these like, massive accomplishments that they've made in their executive function skills, you know, it's going to be more subtle, I imagine.Maria Ares 15:48Absolutely. Definitely, definitely more subtle. You know, they're growing and developing so much every day. So there's so much to notice, and so much to celebrate. And it might not always look like executive function skills, but they're under there for sure. Hannah Choi 16:05And I imagined that there's like there is at any, any age, you might make some progress, and then and then fall back of it and then go forward.Maria Ares 16:15Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important for parents to remember, you know, just how much their preschooler is learning and developing at one time. And, you know, if they were able to follow a two step direction last week, and this week, they're just, you know, having a really hard time with it. Think about the other things that they're developing that maybe their brain is focusing on a little bit more this week. And I think that we need to cut them a little slack personally, sometimes.Hannah Choi 16:49I agree, and it's, I guess, it's hard because the lens through which we are looking is from the point of view of someone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex and years of experience.Maria Ares 17:01Yeah. And it's also very easy for me to say this about my preschoolers, but when I'm talking about my own child, no, get those shoes on! Hannah Choi 17:08Yeah, That's right. Yes. It's just a two step direction. Yes, or when? When..or my 10 year old. When I say, "Could you put your clothes in the washing machine?" The second step is not mentioned. But it starting it is, is part of it. So he did. He did what I said. But yeah, you did not do the unspoken second step.Maria Ares 17:46Right. I recently made a, like a visual step by step chart for tooth brushing. After we had a little cavity incident. Yeah. So you know, I wrote, I'm just never going to not be a special education teacher. So there's charts and lists and everything in our house of how to do everything. But I had to make a new one, because I didn't include as my last step on the list to clean the spit out of the sink.Hannah Choi 18:16Oh, Yes!Maria Ares 18:20I mean, I thought you don't really need a step on a list for that.Hannah Choi 18:24But here we are. Here we are. And so does she do it now?Maria Ares 18:28Most of the time? Yeah. Right. Which is more than never before. So Right. There's progress. Yeah. And now we can just say, "check your list", rather than "clean the disgusting spit out of the sink", which is a lot easier and you know, feels a lot more. Just feels a lot better to say.Hannah Choi 18:49Yeah, and it takes a takes you out of the equation. You can blame it on the list. The list is the list is what it says. And who knows where that list came from? Yeah, select some internet list or something. All right. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Maria Ares 19:07Yeah, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah. Hannah Choi 19:11All right. Have fun with those little kids.Hannah Choi 19:13Thanks. Okay, so now that we've learned about our youngest children's EF skill development with Maria, let's move on to my conversation with Stephanie and Mariam to hear about elementary aged kids and their EF skills. Hi, Stephanie and Mariam, thanks so much for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Stephanie, you want to go first?Stephanie Regan 19:35Sure. I'm Stephanie Regan. I'm an executive function coach with Beyond BookSmart and I've been working here at Beyond BookSmart for almost two years now. I was an elementary teacher and worked with children in different capacities for about 10 years.Hannah Choi 19:51Great. And how about you Mariam?Mariam Mahmoud 19:53I'm also one of the executive function coaches. I've been working with Beyond BookSmart for almost a year. I'm and I also have been a teacher since 2010. Working with kindergarten all the way to fourth grade.Hannah Choi 20:07Great. So you guys are the perfect people to ask, you have the executive function background and the elementary background. So great. Thank you for joining me today. So we are going to talk about executive function skills in elementary aged kids. So what do challenges look like at that age? And, you know, as, as I've talked about, in many episodes past, before this, we know that executive function skills develop over the beginning part of our lifetime and don't even mature until we're in our 20s, late 20s. And then, of course, we all have things that we still struggle with, even after that. But what do what are your challenges for kids who are in elementary school look like?Stephanie Regan 20:51I would say organization for for space and belongings is really huge. And what that looks like is a lot of students have a hard time remembering where to put things or where they've placed things or where things go. So that's really important. And also, I would say task initiation too, is hard, especially when you think about how impulse control is hard. And I think about that, when it's time to do homework, it can be really hard for a lot of students to begin homework, and not just kind of relax or do something else. That might be easier. I would also say self-regulation. Yes, definitely self regulation to again, and thinking about impulse control is another area to where executive function skill development is really important, because they're still learning to control their impulses.Hannah Choi 21:38Yeah, and that can show up, like you said, in emotion, it can show up in behavior, and it can show up in emotion. So yeah, yeah. And stuff like that self regulation piece is huge. I mean, even as adults, like how often like, I don't know, I want to throw a tantrum sometimes. But I have to regulate your emotions and appropriate way. And it's harder for the kids, because they're just not there yet. I know like, as a parent, my kids at home have certain things that they struggle with. And I'm sure in the classroom, they also have things that they have to work on. So where do, where do executive function skill, challenges show up for kids in the classroom?Stephanie Regan 22:15In the classroom, it can look like following directions, especially one step at a time. Sometimes directions can be complicated, or it can seem complicated to different students. So really, it can also come down to meeting steps broken down into smaller steps for students. So that's often where it can show up in the classroom. And I mean, there are a myriad of ways in which they can, but I feel like as far as following directions, and following routines.Hannah Choi 22:46That's that. And there's, I was just gonna say there are so many executive function skills involved in following directions, right? You like you have to memory you have to remember the steps you have to pay attention. You have to prioritize the knew the steps that you're supposed to be doing over the other thing that you want to do or that you weren't doing. Stephanie Regan 23:06Yeah, so many involved, not to mention distractions in the classroom, full of students. So, there's a lot going on.Hannah Choi 23:15Yeah, so that self regulation piece and impulse control.Mariam Mahmoud 23:20I wanted to add also organization, like just if a teacher gives a paper, like just getting the paper from the classroom to the house that you like, you have to know where to put it, and who to give it to you what stays home and what comes back. Stephanie Regan 23:32So these executive function skill challenges can also show up during recess. On the playground. So again, thinking about self-regulation, it can be hard to not just make friends, but also share friends. That's come up with a former younger client of mine. And also negotiating play can be really hard. I know, when I was a teacher, there was a rule. That was you can't say you can't play. But it's easier said than done. So self regulation during recess is a huge piece. And some students know, I shouldn't say know, but it's easier for some students to have unstructured time than is for other students. And recess can feel really unstructured. And sometimes, I mean, that that can be good. And it can also be challenging for for students. SoHannah Choi 24:29Yeah, I was just, I was just talking with my my son's friend. So my son is in fifth grade. And I was talking with his friend, and, and his friend was saying he does not like recess. And he was saying he doesn't like it because it's so crazy. And it's so yeah, I guess he didn't use the word unstructured, but I kind of read that, that's what he meant. So yeah, yeah, you just think of it as every kid would just like it because it's a break from doing work. But for some kids, it's it Can we I know I see that it is hard. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you have anything you wanted to add Mariam on that?Mariam Mahmoud 25:09Um, I don't think so I think like recess, some usually when we think of executive function skills, we're thinking of like school in like the content area, but like recess is just as important because school is not only for the educational purposes, it's also for the social purposes. So I think like, it was really important that Stephanie mentioned that recess is a huge, huge place where we see those skills take take place, or evolve over time.Hannah Choi 25:36Yeah. And and it shows how truly involved in every aspect of our lives as adults, and as children, aren't these executive function skills come into play, and they truly are self management skills, and, and how it can show up in different areas and how it can also really challenge kids and adults. But mostly, you know, we're talking about kids today really challenged kids, especially because they haven't fully developed them yet, especially there, many of them are still emerging in elementary school, they're just starting to, you know, just starting to access that whatever skill. So it's, it's a Yeah, no wonder it can be challenging. And I think understanding that is it as a parent, or as a caregiver, as a teacher understanding that can make a really huge differenceStephanie Regan 26:30It can. I know, it can be easier when you're in the place where we can take a step back and really think about it from a different perspective or think about it from a more objective view.Hannah Choi 26:40Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And that makes me think of how nice it is to have someone who is not, not like super super, as involved with your kid as you are as a parent. So like a teacher can maybe teach some of these skills to their students, in a like, less fraught way that it might be for a parent, or like a coach or something, somebody who's outside of the family a little bit, and not like with a child all the time with all the baggage that comes along with the relationships we have with our kids?Mariam Mahmoud 27:19Absolutely. I mean, I have two children. One is like, very, very organized. And my younger one is also in fifth grade. And sometimes I'm like, even though I'm an executive function coach, and elementary school teacher, sometimes it doesn't work when I'm telling him the advice. But if it comes from a teacher, or from the coach, then he's like, the next day, like, he's slowly getting it. And I'm like, okay, awesome, as long as the help comes from somewhere, but yeah, it does. It matters. Like sometimes parents, no matter how much we want to get to through to our children coming from outside, like might have a different effect on them.Stephanie Regan 27:56Yeah, that's true. And sometimes it's also a matter of reinforcement. So they're not just hearing it from from mom or dad, who they, you know, have to, you know, see, well, all the time as soon as they see all the time. But, you know, students spend a lot of time with their teachers as well. But it can help too. And you're, you're hearing getting more than one place. Absolutely.Hannah Choi 28:16So that makes me think like, How can parents support their kids executive function, development without? Or maybe not without friction? Because there's going to be friction, that's just part of the relationship. But how are some ways that parents can support their kids?Mariam Mahmoud 28:35Well, I say like, I think like, the best thing, especially for elementary school students is like I turn everything into a game, or something you'd like have them play, like plan that the activity or the school, like, whether it's school, or sports or like a fun activity at home, have them plan it out beforehand. It helps them reach whatever the goal is in mind, and have them thinking, "Oh, what, what do I want to accomplish? And what steps am I going to take to get there?" Like some activities, if you're reading a story at home, you could stop and ask the question like, "What would you do if you were that character?" Or what would happen if the character was different in the story, this helps, it gets their cognitive thinking, like, oh, like, maybe I shouldn't be upset, or maybe the character shouldn't be upset. And then they like kind of connect that to self to what's happening in the real life. So the text to self connections is really important. You can also play like those games, like Simon Says, or card games card games is like my own children, they love card games. It helps with the memory skills, it helps with like paying attention, it helps with a lot of those executive function skills in a fun way. It also allows them to take turns, follow directions, and even like that impulse control, like it helps them like they have to wait their turn or like they can't just like call out so It's a it's a fun way where they're learning the executive function skills, but at the same time, they don't know. It's like learning.Hannah Choi 30:06Yeah, exactly. Right. They're actually learning a ton of stuff. Yeah. And that's also good too. Because as parents, it can often end up that the interactions that we have with our kids are not always super fun. So, so giving, giving yourself a chance to just play and have fun with your kids, while also teaching EF skills at the same time, is really great. Yeah, I think for me, definitely getting out of the way, and trying to trying to move them towards independence, and also move towards having more positive interactions that have less to do with, what do you need? What do you need to do? Are you doing what you need to do? Why aren't you doing this? So being able to support them in that way, is really nice. So I'm a coach, I'm an executive function coach, I have, you know, a ton of knowledge and experience supporting people and kids with executive function challenges. And I've, you know, done a lot of research on it. I mean, I host a podcast about it. So I have a lot of knowledge. And I still struggle to come up with tools and strategies that I can use for myself, but also that my kids can use so that we can work on developing theirs, and also give them this independence and this autonomy that they crave. And that I need for them to have, so that I can you know, just do my live my life. So what are your further things that come up for kids like the organization and the self regulation and the task initiation? What, what are your go to go to tools that you teach to your clients and to their parents?Stephanie Regan 31:50Well, I would say my go-to tool is a checklist. It sounds really Yeah. and straightforward. And I mean, it's a tool that I use on a weekly basis. So it can be easier to teach it and support it when you use it. So I think having a checklist, an example would be a checklist for an after school routine. And that could look like, you know, come home, put my bag away, eat a snack, start homework, it can have a number of things on it. But I think it's good to keep it to like three or five things. I also think if it's visible and accessible, then it's more helpful. So with that in mind, I think it's important to place it where the client or student can see it at eye level, and it can help I think, ease any tension or frustration around reminding your student or reminding a child of what he she or they need to do when they get home. You can also refer to it like, oh, like remember, you have a checklist that you like, do this, or did you do that? Or what is your checklist, say and if it's at eye level, then the student if the if they're if they can read, then a student can refer to it. And also it's important to use simple language toHannah Choi 33:08Or pictures as well. Right? Yes.Stephanie Regan 33:10Pictures. I do like to use pictures. I won't say I'm a visual learner, because you learn differently. You learn different subjects differently or different topics differently. But I I do like visualization. And I do like pictures that can go along with words or phrases, if not, if I think it's necessary. So that can also be really helpful.Hannah Choi 33:36Yeah, we have a list on our door that goes out to the garage with the things that the kids need to bring in. And it's really nice to just be able to say, "Did you check the list?" I don't have to get involved. I just have to say, "Did you check the list?" I had to make the list, but and I hung up the list. But after that, all I have to say is "Did you check the list?" And then if they didn't check the list, you know, that's on them. So and I mean, my kids are older. So it is easier for me to say that's on them if they didn't check the list, but we scaffold them right? We maybe support them if they forget something on the list and then move them towards leaving it up to them if they forget things on the list.Stephanie Regan 34:13And there can become a point in time where they memorize the list. Oh, yeah, hi is a few things on the list and you don't really need to point it out. You know, they can they might come to a place where they have it memorized which is good too.Hannah Choi 34:25Yeah, I was just talking last night with a friend of mine whose kids are in second and third grade. And she was saying that that she was sharing that she also has a checklist for the morning and it says "pack backpack" and she said she's so funny, she was like "I used I even used indented bullets." So she has packed backpack and then indented bullets. And then it lists the things that go into the backpack and she noticed that her son had not been putting the snack in and she's like, why didn't you put the snack in? He said well because it didn't say pack snack. She's like me, it's just to take the pack from the top part. Pack the indented bulleted things. Stephanie Regan 35:04So, yeah, yeah, reminder that students can be very literal people very, very literal. Not just children!Hannah Choi 35:12Don't assume! And yes, that is such a good point. Stephanie, I completely agree. Yes. What about you, Mariam? I'm, what do you like to use?Mariam Mahmoud 35:22No, I honestly like the same as Stephanie, those checklists. For the younger students. When my children were younger, I instead of doing it over and over again, like, I just put it in like, one of those sleeves, like a paper protector, and kind of turned it into like a dry erase thing. So they would check it off, then I would erase it and then use it again. Yeah, brilliant. And putting it on the refrigerator or the same spot every day, like just having it there. Or like, when they were like, a lot younger, any, like little magnets interact and be like, Oh, I got it's on instead of a checklist, like just put like a little tiny magnet.Hannah Choi 35:58Oh, yeah. Smart. I know. Something that Oh, go ahead. Sorry.Stephanie Regan 36:03I was gonna say I'm an adult. And I like checking things off. In Google. I still get satisfaction from checking things off my grocery list.Hannah Choi 36:14yes, I'm the same way I use any list. And when you tap, it disappears. It's very satisfying. Yeah. I also am a big fan of writing things that I did on my list. So if it wasn't on the list, but I did it, I still write it on the list and then cross it off. After the fact.Stephanie Regan 36:33I was gonna say what you said about like, doing things that weren't on the list reminded me of five minute goals, or the idea of doing like, what you can have five minutes, because you could actually end up doing a lot more than you think you thought you could. Another good strategy or tool was like, okay, like if, if something is a fight, or a struggle with your child at home, or even a student at school, or a client during a coaching session? The Five Minute goals out okay, well, let's see how much you can get done in five minutes. And a lot of times, it's also been three minutes with a particular client of mine, but it's like, what, what can you get done in three minutes? And that I set a timer, it can also turn into a game, or it can be more fun. Hannah Choi 37:16So yes, like they're racing. Yes. Yeah.Stephanie Regan 37:20Doing more than you thought you could is also it can also boost self esteem and, and what have you, so that that's also good to.Hannah Choi 37:27Absolutely I love that tool.Mariam Mahmoud 37:29It also enforces our time awareness. Like they're like, Oh, well, that was five minutes, and I was able to put my shoes away and get my backpack out and get a snack or whatever they could do in five minutes. Like, they're usually very, like, amused or amazed that they could, they could do that much in five minutes. So.Hannah Choi 37:47I was I had that experience. When I, I, we have a gas stove. And I really hate cleaning it off after we cook dinner because you have to like, lift up the grates. And there's so many crevices. It's so annoying. And so I found myself avoiding it, which is gross. And then it looks gross. And and so I said oh, you know what I'm gonna time myself is I think that it takes me about 10 minutes. It took me four minutes, like four minutes top to bottom even wiping down the oven door and the handle on everything. Like Hannah. So every time I don't want to clean off the stove at night, I always say four minutes, you have four minutes. Yeah, it's a really good tool. The other thing I really like about five minute goals and that I always say to myself, and anyone else that I'm suggesting use it is that when that timer goes off, and whether you've set it for two minutes or five minutes or whatever, you can then either decide to be done, or keep going. And it's really nice, because it's like a built in permission to be done. I'm only asking you to do this for five minutes. Oh, you're you're into it. You're like, oh, maybe I'll just keep going. Alright, then keep going. But if you're like, No, this sucks, and I don't want to do this anymore. Then you stop it. I really I like that. That flexibility built in.Stephanie Regan 39:04Yeah, I was gonna say it's good for task initiation and also cognitive flexibility, too. It's like, Oh, that wasn't so hard. Maybe I can keep going.Hannah Choi 39:15Right totally gets you to change your perspective on it.Mariam Mahmoud 39:18Absolutely. I use that strategy actually, for my, my one son, he hates going outside. Like he just doesn't like playing outside and the other one like really enjoys it. So I'm like, Just 10 minutes a day after school just go out for 10 minutes a day. And he's out there for like 20-30 minutes like he absolutely loves it. Um, so I'm like this really like it worked. Just setting that and sometimes like if he's tired, he's like, it's a 10 minutes up, but for the most part, like it got him to go outside more, which was really great at our house, at least.Hannah Choi 39:48Yes. And that brings me back up. Always, always, always just start small, right? Anything that can that feels like it's going to be hard. Feels like it's going to be Challenge start small, which is the same thing when you are implementing new strategies that you're using with your kids to try to make some change in either your relationship with them or trying to build autonomy and independence for them. So you have to start small, this is not a change that's going to happen overnight. It's not, you know, you can't all of a sudden throw all these tools at your kids, and be like, tada, magic. It just doesn't work that way. And there's going to be times that we slip, and there's going to be times that, that we forget. And it's just easier for us to just pack their backpack because we're late. And I just want to pack your backpack because you're not doing it right anyway. But as long as as long as we recognize that is not going to happen overnight, and just do small steps, small steps working towards that independence, I think, at least for me, personally, and what I've seen in my clients, it makes a really big difference.Mariam Mahmoud 40:55Absolutely. And celebrate those small successes too. It's really important if they forgot their backpack for a week, and they finally remembered it, but they forgot to put their Chromebook inside. At least they remember their backpack. So like it's a small, those small steps, but celebrating it because it makes a huge difference when you're like, Oh, awesome job, great job bringing your backpack every day. They get that sense of pride. And they get the sense of oh, you know what, I could keep doing this? And I could add on?Hannah Choi 41:24Yeah, and they start to see the benefit of doing absolutely, yeah. And that makes me think about how, like, we only have the lens that we have through which to look like we are adults. And we are looking at their situation through this adult lens. And so sometimes it can be really hard to understand like, why can't you just remember to do whatever it is that I've just asked you to do? So I think, let me do you see that a lot when you're working with parents and their kids like helping the helping each other understand that we're all coming from a different perspective?Mariam Mahmoud 42:02Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest things that we have to actually talk to parents about it, just put yourself in their shoes. Yes, it is easy for us, because we've already been through it. Or like been, been through something similar to it, you know, like, we can think of a time that you forgot about your dentist appointment, your doctor's appointment, or you forgot to turn off the stove, when you're making tea, I'm like, it happens to all of us. So we really have this, tell them like just try to think as like the five year old or seven year old or even the teenagers, like there's a lot going on in their mind. It might not be on their top of the things to do is to take their backpack to school, like maybe they were really nervous about a test or, you know, one of their friends were sick or something happened, you know, we just have to always think about what are they feeling?Hannah Choi 42:56Yeah, yeah. And that's why I like that whole...like, for anyone who's listening right now, like you're, you're taking the time to maybe learn something and maybe find something that can help you understand your kids, or maybe ease some of the friction or conflict between you and your kids. And then that's how, like our kids can learn from the role models that they have. And if they if like from their teachers, or their elder siblings, or if they have a coach, just they're just still learning and we were all still learning. I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say.Stephanie Regan 43:34We're definitely all still learning. And I mean, I have my own example of I mean, I don't know if I should lead with logical consequences, but because it doesn't always it doesn't feel good when you forget to do something. And you know, because there's, you know, the intention of doing it, and there's the impact. You know, it's one thing if it affects you, it's another thing if it affects someone else, but I was just thinking how I mean, it can be good. If it's a small logical consequence. That's not detrimental. For students to be like, oh, like, I didn't, this would, I mean, be for an older client, but I you know, I didn't look at Google Calendar and I've got to have a quiz, a science quiz. So the logical, you know, the, so there's a consequence of forgetting the quiz, which stinks and then But then there's like, Okay, so next time I'm going to do this. Yes. Which is really important for for that awareness. metacognitive awareness and growth as well.Hannah Choi 44:37So do you guys have any other go to tools that you'd like to share with your clients and parents,Mariam Mahmoud 44:41So one go to tool that like, I think all my clients love once I tell them about it as a fastbreak plan. It's basically like, Okay, I have homework to do, and I have studying to do and I have to walk the dog and my chores to do but I also want to play my video games. So it's coming home and having the child like come home, right from school and do everything that's like a priority according to the parents standards. Just break it up like, Okay, let's do read your reading vocabulary words for 30 minutes, then you could do like a five minute or 15 minute break, then let's get back to doing maybe your math work. This will take like, maybe 20 minutes, okay, then let's take a break. I'm just having those little like brain breaks in between it really lets the child kind of have a sense of their own schedule. Like, yeah, I could do this or I could do that and get the child involved with the fastbreak plan, right? It sounds like does this work for you? Like one of my children, like he gets home, he wants his work, done his homework, like he wants it out of the way. The other one, like he is tired from work, and he's like, I want to play first. And I'm like, Okay, let's come up with a routine that works for you. I mean, it took me a while to get there. Because I'm like, No, it has to be like this. But once I have, like, I listened to him, and I told him, like, he told me what he wants to do. Now he gets all of his work done. But he's not doing it, how I would do it, but that's totally okay. He's using basically that fast break plan where he gets the work done. But he has that time to play and just kind of relax in between.Hannah Choi 46:15And I love how you brought up how, like for you, that's not how you would do it. But you you were able to see from his point of view, this is this really is gonna work for him and how his sibling is, had to approaches it differently. And my kids are the same way. My fifth grader he wants to come in, he wants to get his homework done right away. He doesn't want to have anything that he needs to do. And then he can just go and do it. And then my daughter, she likes to kind of spread it out over the over the evening. So yeah. And I think I think that's really hard to do. I mean, it's hard to do, it's hard to see other people's perspectives, like regardless of who the person's perspective is you're trying to see, it's hard to do, and I do, I really think it's, it is absolutely worth taking the time to try to understand. And you know, and if they come up and like I love how you said get them involved. So they come up with a plan that does really work for them. Why do they have to do it the way you would do it? As long as it's working for them? Why not? Why not? Let them discover that on their own? And how much? How many lessons in independence and autonomy does that teach them?Mariam Mahmoud 47:24Absolutely not to mention, it really does reduce that friction. Like it like,Hannah Choi 47:29It gets you out of the way!Mariam Mahmoud 47:31Oh, I wish I did this a long time ago, like it really like, right? He's doing his work. He's getting everything done by the end of the night, which is the end goal anyways. So I actually never works well.Hannah Choi 47:42Yeah. And the consequences, the natural consequences, logical consequences that you were talking about before Stephanie? Like, okay, so here, I'm going to let you, you know, build this plan, and I'm going to, I'm going to trust you to work through this plan. And if you don't manage your time, well, and you are still you know, up doing your stuff late or you didn't get it done, and then you don't get to turn it in, then there's a consequence. And then maybe you are able to, to, you know, learn from that for the next time. And I think, as parents and maybe even as caregivers not not in the role of a parent, but even as a teacher, especially with younger children. You don't want your kids to experience those natural consequences, you don't want them to have a negative experience, you don't want them to feel bad, you know, you just want them to have this like happy existence where they don't experience those negative feelings. But that's where they learn. And that all those opportunities to learn all that is only going to serve them really well as they get older, and the challenges get bigger, and their responsibilities get bigger. And so if we're constantly trying to protect them from those negative emotions, whatever it is, by doing all the things that they forgot for them, then they miss out on a lot of learning opportunities. I think it is important to consider if you have the time and the bandwidth to consider the different aspects of each situation that can be helpful. Mariam Mahmoud 49:13Absolutely. And give the child time as well. Like if if they make their own schedule, and they're like it's gonna work and the first day they didn't get their homework done. It's not going to change overnight. Again, it's progress, like so what I usually do is like, let's try it for a week or two. And then we talk about it what worked, what didn't work, let's tweak. I mean, as long as their grades aren't going down, and there's they're not forgetting their backpack every single day. I let them learn from the natural consequences. And then we talk about what worked what didn't work, and we change it, because that's how they learn.Hannah Choi 49:44Yep, yeah. And it really does take a long time. It's not it's not overnight. I mean, not even for us, you know, it's as caregivers it's it doesn't happen overnight, either. Like if we're trying to change our approach to our parenting. It doesn't happen overnight. So you Yeah. So as for kids who have for kids who have coaches or who maybe they have like a tutor, or, you know, they work one on one with a specialist, how, how do you guys see parental support coming in? They're like, how did how do you? How do you work with parents of young children.Mariam Mahmoud 50:25Um, for me, I just I let the parents know that like, let the child's practice. If we're working on something in the coaching session, like just practice what we're working on reading for us, for Beyond BookSmart, we have those portal notes, right, where you kind of communicate with the parent, what's going on, let them read the portal, make notes and understand what the tool is, share, like sharing the tools that you use at home with the coach or the tutor or even the teacher, just be like, Oh, we use this at home, like, as simple as color coding. Maybe you could try it in the classroom, it really helps when there's that communication. So communication is like the top key of helping the child no matter who they're learning it from. It helps us work together and help them succeed, which is the main goalHannah Choi 51:15It really reinforces that consistency, which is what you need to find any success. Is there anything else you guys would like to add? In your experience as as coaches of young children? Is there anything? Any takeaways that are really relevant for, for Listen, our listeners.Mariam Mahmoud 51:35I think just basically, just like we said, like communication, and patience, and just consistency is really, really key to having your child succeed. And working with the teacher with the administration, with the coach, with the tutor, no matter who your child sees, even if it's if they're basketball or baseball or playing a sport. Just knowing what your child is working on, and having that open communication could help them succeed.Stephanie Regan 52:04I would say the goal is progress, not perfection.Hannah Choi 52:08Absolutely. Yes. i When I interviewed Peg Dawson, she said progress. She said her colleague had a thing on the wall that said "Progress is measured in in years and not months". So it just it does. It does. Takes a while. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.Stephanie Regan 52:29Thank you for having us. Mariam Mahmoud 52:30Thank you.Hannah Choi 52:32And that's our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversations about executive function skill development in our youngest kiddos, and that maybe it helps with some of those challenges we experience while parenting or teaching them. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share our show with the people in your lives who might like learning about EF skills and little kids, you never know. It might just make a huge difference for them. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if you listen on Apple or Spotify, give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

When it comes to helping students learn more efficiently, Executive Function skills are the greatest tool teachers have at their disposal. Yet, many teachers aren’t aware of their value, and the ones that do often don't know how to support them in the classroom. For example, we had one teacher ask us on our Facebook page how teachers can support their own Executive Function challenges while also managing a classroom full of kids who have varying degrees of Executive Function challenges, too. As soon as I read this question, I knew EF in the classroom was an important topic to cover on Focus Forward - and that I also had the perfect people to reach out to. BrainTracks is a separate division of Beyond BookSmart that’s focused on training teachers in Executive Function tools and strategies that they can use in the classroom. I invited the program’s director, Susan Lohman, and one of their School Training specialists, Allison Larthey, to talk about the role Executive Function skills play in the classroom and how teachers can help both their students and themselves develop these skills further. Listen in to learn how you can apply these same strategies to find more time and energy for learning at home or in the classroom. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Be sure to check out the relevant links and resources below that were mentioned in the episode!BraintracksBraintracks WebsiteBraintracks ResourcesYour Kid's Gonna Be Okay by Michael DelmanEp 15: Building Meaning: Life Lessons from an Executive Function PioneerTools6 Steps to Successful Goal Setting for Students (and Adults!)SMART Goals - How to Make Your Goals AchievableCircle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in ActionMirror NeuronsMirror neurons: Enigma of the metaphysical modular brain - PMCThe Mind's MirrorContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi Well, listeners, this episode is a celebration for me because we've officially been on the air for over one year now. I'd like to thank you all for listening. It really means the world to me and my podcast team. I'd like to thank them today too, for helping me bring executive function, skill, knowledge and information to as many people as possible. I am not kidding when I say this podcast would absolutely not be possible without them. I'd like to thank Sean Potts, our producer and editor, Justice Abbott, our content designer, Jackie Hebert, our director of marketing. Mimi Fernandez, our Director of Customer Success, and the rest of the Beyond BookSmart team, including Michael Delman and Rachel Krompinger who never fail to support us and our work. Something that's really important to me is helping people recognize that there are going to be areas of executive functioning that come easily to you, and other areas that probably always have been, and may always will be challenging for you. And this is okay. As we've been exploring over the last year, there are tools and strategies that can help immensely in those challenging areas. Someone asked about this on our Beyond BookSmart Facebook page. The person who posted the question wanted to know how teachers can support their own executive function skill challenges, while also managing a classroom full of kids whose EF skills are all still emerging and in various states of effectiveness. As soon as I read this question, I knew it was an important topic to cover on focus forward, and I knew exactly who I had to reach out to. If you've listened to Episode 15, where I interviewed Michael Delman, the founder and CEO of beyond booksmart, you will have heard us talk about the exciting development of our school division, which was created out of a desire to democratize access to the critical executive function skills education our one on one coaches provide. This school division has grown into what we now call BrainTracks, and is led by director Susan Lohman. I invited Susan and one of her school training specialists Allison Larthey on the podcast to talk about exactly what the Facebook comments are brought up - How to support executive function skill development in the classroom for both kids and their teachers. So listen to learn about the role executive function skills play in the classroom, tools that teachers can use to find more time and energy for learning. And how brain tracks is working diligently to create access to life changing executive function, skill development for all kids, their teachers and their families. Hi, Susan and Allison, thanks so much for joining me. Would you introduce yourself so our listeners know who you are. Susan, you want to start?Susan Lohman 03:25Sure. So I am Susan Lohman. I'm the Director of School Programming, BrainTracks - our school division, and I am a former teacher and instructional coach. So I worked in middle schools and high schools. I worked in traditional brick and mortar schools. And I also spent a lot of time in online education for K - 12. My firsthand experience in the classroom allows me to say The struggle is real for teachers teaching is a really hard job, a very hard job. As an instructional coach, I visited hundreds of classrooms and saw similar experiences with teachers and students. And then through the work of my work as a coach at Beyond BookSmart I realized that there was actually different in a better way for students and teachers. So the work that I was doing with my clients, I started using those tools and strategies with my own students when I was teaching and then when I was a instructional coach, using it with teachers, so I realized this success before even heading up BrainTracks.Hannah Choi 04:39Cool. That's great. Yeah. And how about you, Allison?Allison Larthey 04:42So I'm Allison Larthey. And I have been working for Beyond BookSmart since 2019, and I'm an executive function coach, and I'm also a school training specialist. And my background is elementary education. I had one of those New Jersey unicorn degrees where I could I teach anything in the classroom from preschool up through eighth grade. And I also am a certified school counselor. So I really love bringing all that information together. And that's one of the things that I love about what I learned about Beyond BookSmart was how we kind of marry those two things of, you know, calming the nerves, I work with a lot of clients with anxiety. And so we, you know, we practice with all those skills and how that impacts their education is just so much fun to see the progress, the growth. And, you know, so yeah, I spent a lot of time in elementary education. And I was incorporating these skills before I knew what they were and like, kind of had that name to go along with it. So but I, you know, was able to kind of put that name to it, I'm like, This is so much more impactful. And to really target this is why that worked all those years ago. So it's really fun to see the impact that it has on teachers and our clients. And it's, it's just so much fun to do this work really.Hannah Choi 06:06That's great. I know, I love it. I mean, I don't, I don't work in a classroom, and I don't work with teachers, but I can just relate exactly with what you're talking about, it's seeing the impact of the of your effort is just there's nothing better. Yeah. So the reason I asked you guys to join me today is because someone had commented on the Beyond BookSmart Facebook page about it, wondering about what teachers who have executive function challenges can do to support themselves in the classroom. And, and it just really got me thinking about how, like on the podcast, I always talk about how, you know, like, as adults, we have executive function challenges, whether you have ADHD, or not everyone has an area of executive function that is challenging to them. And so, in a classroom, you're managing, you know, however many different personalities, some of whom have more or less, you know, executive function challenges themselves. Plus, you're managing yourself. And so I thought, who could be some experts that can help me dive into this topic. And so I just knew I had to come to you. So thank you so much. So I want to ask you a lot of our BrainTracks because I love the idea of it. I love the idea of, of teaching as many people as we can about executive function skills. I mean, that's why I'm doing the podcast. But can we first talk about why do executive function skills matter in the classroom?Susan Lohman 07:41Executive function skills are really what allows the students to learn. So it allows them to self regulate, enough to be in the mindset to be able to absorb and manipulate the knowledge of teachers sharing. If they're not able to self regulate, and focus, pay attention, initiate tasks, all these things, they really can't access the knowledge that comes through the teachers instruction. So EF skills allow students really to manage themselves in their lives in school, but also out of school. If they're not able to prioritize tasks, organized belongings and their time to start task to finish tasks, they're not able to perform at their best. And so ultimately, the the E F skills and supporting them is sort of a ticket to them being able to learn and to maximize that potential. It allows them to be more independent leaders of themselves in their job of being a student, but also of themselves outside of school. Students who are receiving executive function skills support through tilt tools and strategies, their parents often see the same changes at home, those routines have habits that they're developing, transfer over out of school to.Hannah Choi 09:07And I imagine that when the kids feel like they have some autonomy and some power over their executive function skills, it gives space to the teachers to be able to teach and be able to access their executive function skills more easily.Allison Larthey 09:30Yeah, I would definitely say that that's true. Because whenever we practice these skills, I mean, I know I feel that way. As a coach, I feel that way when I work with with, you know, in the classroom when I work with teachers, you know, to translate it into the client into their classrooms. Whenever we're practicing these skills, the impact is felt not just by the person on the receiving end, but it's also on on our end. You know, the more I practice with like, you know, Circles of Control. Well, with a client of like letting go of the things outside of our control, then I'm practicing that skill at the same time with them. So, the same is true for those executive function skills, you know, if we really want our students to be organized and where their paperwork is, as we're bringing awareness to that, and as we're practicing that skill, like, then we as the teacher are also going to benefit from that, because we're paying attention to it. And we're putting into practice, at the same time that we're working on it with the kids. So I really I love that, that the teacher asked that of, you know, how do I help myself in that as well, because I really do think that it's great to recognize those strengths and weaknesses that we have, as human beings, that you know, we all have those strengths, we all have those weaknesses, just like you said. So when we're practicing those skills, and we're just aware of, you know, what this is, this is a challenge for me. So maybe I can bring this into the classroom and practice it with my students. And then we're all benefiting from it. And we're removing that stigma of everybody has to be perfect all the time, which I think we carry sometimes as teachers. And, you know, that's a hard thing to let go.Susan Lohman 11:10When you think about it logically, also, students during the week, they're at a school or in a classroom, more hours, and they're actually home. So if these, these routines, and these habits are occurring at school, they will more easily be able to transfer at home, because they're happening for a greater amount of time. Hannah Choi 11:35Something that you said, Allison made me think about how like, when I coach and I'm working with a client, sometimes if I share my own struggle and say, like, oh, I, you know, I can totally relate to that, or like, this is what I'm doing, to try to, you know, level the playing field in whatever area I'm struggling with. The look of, of surprise, and also relief on my clients faces like, Oh, all right, like, she's my coach, and she feels that way. So I imagine for it's the same thing for kids in the classroom,Allison Larthey 12:10And we're modeling that it's okay to keep learning and growing, and that even as adults, these things may still be challenging. So what do we do about that? And that's, you know, I think that that's really powerful. And that removes the stigma to for some of our students who are struggling with those areas, if we're patient with ourselves. And you know, it's like that, you know, the expression of you can't pour from an empty cup. So if I'm just pouring, pouring, pouring, and I'm never filling mine back up, then then what am I actually pouring out. So when our students are, like, when I when I have patience with myself, I'm gonna have a lot more patience, to, you know, help support my students. But if I'm feeling frustrated, then that may come across, too. That's one of the things we talked about in one of our workshops is those mirror neurons of like, when our students are reflecting back, what we're, what we're putting out there, and then we're reflecting back what they're putting out there. So how do we, you know, kind of balance all of that, but that like patience and grace with ourselves, as the teacher, I think is so important for our students as well.Hannah Choi 13:20Yeah, so how, how, in addition to that, How can teachers incorporate executive function tools and skills into the classroom, so that they are able to reach kids and focus more on instruction and, and help kids have autonomy and, and ownership of their own work that they're doing?Allison Larthey 13:42Yeah, that's where we, when we're working with teachers and schools, we always want to emphasize that we're not trying to add any new, you know, new stuff. There was, there's this one analogy that I heard from a professional development workshop, about a million years ago was probably like, I don't know, 15-20 years ago, maybe, that somebody explained a "constipated curriculum", where we just like shove stuff, and we never take anything out. And, like, do that we are here to take the practices that teachers are already doing the things that they want to focus their attention on, whatever that may be, however big or small, you know, whether it's I just want my students to put their names on their papers, or it's I work you know, we've got this massive final exam and we need our students to be prepared, no matter how big or small the task is. We're just going to take what they're already doing, and helping them to examine it in that executive function light and then adjust the practice to then make it the you know, who's benefiting from this practice. If I take the homework papers home to grade every single night, who benefit hits from that, do my students benefit? Do I benefit? And if that's not the case, then what can I do differently to really help them grow their skills. And so that's, you know, that's really what we like to do is talk about the tool, talk about the strategy, and then allow teachers to break it into their own practice and say, you know, oh, I could see myself doing this here. And, you know, so we're not looking for the, you know, piling on massive things we're looking for, you know, make it efficient,Susan Lohman 15:33Hannah, sometimes too, that just bringing the awareness to a student's behavior, or their lack of behavior to a specific executive function skill, a light bulb goes off. Oh, that's why she does her homework or forgets to turn it in half the time, I could never understand why someone would do all that work, and then not turn it in connecting the dots between behaviors, executive function skills, and then something that we as educators can do just a little bit differently, tweak and twist it a little bit differently, present something slightly different can have a huge impact.Hannah Choi 16:15Yeah, because if you don't, if you haven't had the opportunity to learn, you know, an understanding to learn the connection between executive function, executive dysfunction, and the related behaviors, then how would you know?Susan Lohman 16:32Right? Right, exactly.Allison Larthey 16:35And the benefits, yeah, the benefits of, you know, working on those skills, you free up so much time in your day, when you're not managing those little things. Like, whenever you have that good classroom management, and those, you know, those student independent routines, even from as early as kindergarten, I mean, back in the days when I would substitute teach, you knew the teachers that had that really strong routine. And it just made everything flow so much easier, when you would walk into those classrooms. So then as the teacher, it's easier to have a sick day, to have that day off. And you have that, you know, that benefit is so widespread of you know, it's not just about you know, are they prepared for that test, because, of course, we want them to be prepared for the test. That's why we're there. But we also really want them to leave with those those life skills of, you know, will they pick up a book when they have a free free moment. And, you know, so that classroom management, the student independence, and then the way it, it does free up more time in the classroom, you know, when we aren't having to hear all the arguments over kickball after lunch, and you know, then we have time to dive into math a lot faster. So, you know, we open up that space for the things that the students want to do, that the teacher wants to do. And it just flows so much, so much nicer when you have that, you know, when everybody's feeling good about those practices, and feels like they have that independence.Hannah Choi 18:11Right, and then it takes you takes us back to what we were talking about before, you're able to take better care of yourself, when you have that space to breathe and to not be rushing from one to the next and and trying to shove some behavior management in there and or classroom management in there. And yes, I taught preschool I know it's not the same as as as like K through 12. But I remember that I would really have benefited from a lot of that from just understanding more about, like, I understood the child development, but not the executive function part. Like I never remember learning about that. And how important that really is, Susan Lohman 18:55Hannah, that's that's a really good point of preschool. I was a high school English teacher, but I did sub for a year in a preschool room, which sounds very silly. I really was only qualified because I had my own kids. But looking at that I was at that time, I was a coach with Beyond BookSmart and I remember thinking, I'm seeing the emergence of executive function skills. In these little ones, the four year olds and really supporting them that early makes a difference when they're in first grade or third grade or seventh grade. They're starting small and in starting when they are wanting that autonomy over themselves and turning those routines into habits and have great effects you know, throughout their their school career.Hannah Choi 19:50We're going to be doing an episode on executive functions skill development in younger kids in the next few week so that the Yeah, yeah, I was super excited about that. Yep. So it is really important. And, and I think that you're right. When we start early, when those skills are emerging, it really does make a difference in the long run. Yeah. So, so back to classrooms, what are your go to tools that you would share with any teacher, because you know, it'll impact them positively?Susan Lohman 20:29Yeah, I think I'll start, Hannah, with one that I use myself, I've used it with all of my clients, with my own kids. And that is the the five minute goals and doesn't necessarily have to be five minute. But the thought is to use a timer to make something more manageable, to allow somebody to start on a task, or to complete part of a task to recognize that, Wow, I did all that in just five minutes. It can be used in a variety of ways. If somebody is struggling to get started on a paper, which is so common, setting the timer for five minutes and saying, just even brainstorm, start in the middle of the paper, start with the thing you know, best and just write for five minutes. It can be used that way it can be used, if somebody is not wanting to do something. And they know they have to do it, saying, Okay, we're only going to do it for five minutes and see what we get done with. And then we're going to leave it and come back to it in an hour or whatever. It sets boundaries around something that seems impossible, or something you don't want to do. It's also a way to have students who have struggles with paying attention and focusing five minutes seems so small, that it's not intimidating to them. Oh, I can do that for five minutes. It's just five minutes. Yeah, so that's one that I that I always use always even with myself. I use it.Hannah Choi 22:15Me too. I love that tool. It saved me so many times.Allison Larthey 22:19Oh, absolutely. That's a three way, three way agreement on that one. It's like a favorite go to because you can use it in so many different ways. And I would say one of my favorites, too is probably the the DKDK, The do know, don't know. And this one is so great, because it can again be adaptable to all levels, all, you know, practices, whatever skill it is you're trying to reinforce. And basically you just sorta what do I know? What do I sort of know? And what do I really really not know, like I forgot it even existed kind of don't know. And I love that because you can use it for so many things you can have, you know, your high school students can keep track of that they can use their notes and sort them in a chart to say, Oh, I totally know this. So I really don't have to spend a lot of time reviewing it. I sort of know this, I might get it right on the test, I might not get it right on the test. So I need a little bit more practice. And then the I don't even know what this means I definitely need to talk to my friends or ask my teacher or go to a tutor, or you know, read up on this watch a YouTube video, I need more time. And then you break apart your study methods into more efficient practices of I can spend time on this little bit of time here. And then just a real quick review over here. And I love how you can use that even at the youngest grades of you know, in a preschool room of does everybody know where the scissors go? After we take out the scissors? Do we know where they belong? And we can introduce it and say like, look, we're gonna talk about where the scissors go. So we don't know this yet, then we explain it. And we're now we sort of know it. But can we put it into practice. And then as your students start to build that routine, then they say like, and then you're like, wow, everybody knows where the scissors go, we're all the way over here, we can move on to a new goal now. And just the way that you can break that apart to be, you know, so complex, but also so simple. Is is just I love, you know, that kind of a tool. And then I have a great story with a fourth grader who I was coaching, one on one coaching. And I found out after months of us working together that he would go into school the next day and tell his teacher, the practices that we would talk about during our sessions. And DK DK was one of their favorites, his and his teachers. And I just had to jump in. I was like I didn't even know you were talking about this, but you could tell that it mattered to him and then he was like, Oh, my teacher uses this all the time now. And so it'sHannah Choi 25:01just great. He was your first he was your first brain tracks, andAllison Larthey 25:05he didn't even know.Hannah Choi 25:08Yes, spreading theAllison Larthey 25:09word of like he really did just like, take it into the classroom, which was so fun, because he got to be the owner of that of like, look at this, like, Yeah, we're gonna do this. Yeah,Hannah Choi 25:18that's so great. I love that.Susan Lohman 25:22I think it's also worth mentioning that any of these tools collectively using them as a class makes them more powerful. Even the even the teachers using them in the moment, it makes it a community effort, rather than something that I'm giving you, the students to do. I had a when I was a instructional coach, I had a teacher that wrote all the papers alongside with the students. So this was a middle school class. And she wanted to show them that she modeled for them, but she also showed them the writing process. By joining them showing her paper, she joined in just like another student. And I think there's some really great value in that with all of these tools, using them collectively together.Hannah Choi 26:10And it also, it also make sure that anyone who likes, okay, so there's going to be some students in the classroom that really, really benefit from it, and really, really need it. And then other kids who could probably get by without it, but when you teach it to everybody, and it's just this is just what we do, then everyone gets to benefit it benefit from it in a way that doesn't feel like isolating for one person or like, Oh, you're different. You're you have ADHD. So you need this. This is something that, yeah, this is something that everybody can benefit from. Well, and thatSusan Lohman 26:51yeah, I love that to Hannah, and even on it on a nother level is teachers in other classrooms or other content areas using the tools as well, students are able to use the tool in one classroom, and maybe go to another and use the same tool and a slightly different way. You know, it brings and it just circle.Hannah Choi 27:13Yeah, and I imagine it just becomes part of the vernacular, we just talk about this, this is just what we do. We all do DK decays, or we all use five minute goals. And when it's consistent, like I mean, we know that in coaching, right? When it's when you're consistent, that's when the magic happens. So the consistency across classrooms, I'm sure it would make a really huge difference.Susan Lohman 27:35Well, and Hannah to even outside of the school, in our brain tracks program, we work with families too, because we do want that language, you want those tools, we want that entire ecosystem that supports the child's learning to be consistently using the language, the tools, the approaches. And so we do work with families and families are the trainings with the families are very well attended, because they they want the knowledge, right, they want to be able to support their child in school, but also out of school.Hannah Choi 28:10And I bet some of the parents find themselves thinking, Oh, this is actually something that would be helpful for me as well, then if they use it, they can then model for their kid at home so severely, kids are getting the reinforcement dma's I love that.Susan Lohman 28:24It's smart goals is one of the tools that we use a lot with families, we encourage them to write them with their children. So everyone's working towards the same goal. It could be something as simple as you know, reading 30 minutes a day that everyone's doing it or it could be around. household things like sorting, doing the laundry, putting it away, but it's goals that the family is collectively working on. So it doesn't again, feel like we're pointing at the student you need this. It's like no, we all need this. So the house, the house works systematically, just like the classroom work systematically.Hannah Choi 29:06Yeah, and then if everybody feels supported, then they're more likely to use the tool because they feel like, Oh, I'm not the only one that's doing this, right.Allison Larthey 29:17And we hear that all the time, from the parent workshops from you know, even when teachers are in the workshops, it's like, Oh, I could use this with my own kids. And you know, and then parents are like, I could use this myself. And you know, that's, that's a fun thing is that they really are universal strategies and tools that we're practicing.Hannah Choi 29:37Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I just as a coach, I have learned so many strategies that I've taught my clients and then that way to us, this is absolutely something that I would benefit from. So yeah, it is such a great way to to learn about ourselves and how we can support ourselves to then be better parents, better teachers, better coaches. So, yeah, I love that. So all this talk about, you know about making this universal support, it makes me think about, I mean, that's kind of why you guys got into brain tracks, right? Like, why, why that the idea of brain tracks came out? Can you explain a little bit about that?Susan Lohman 30:19Sure. So I'm going to just step back to my instructional coaching days, and when I was seeing very similar struggles in a variety of classrooms, a variety of ages, or classrooms, working with my one on one clients, in my mind, I was thinking, Wow, a school program would be so helpful. And I was thinking like, how, how could this work in schools, public, private, online schools, not knowing Michael was thinking the same thing. So, you know, coming together, you know, was the evolution of BrainTracks, but the idea was to take the similar support that our one to one coaching clients receive, and make those accessible and affordable for all students, and all schools and all states, across the US. So allowing, or providing, I should say, providing those strategies, the tools, the insight, the knowledge, the language, all of that to students, through teachers, you know, allows us to make a much greater impact than we already are through our coaching program.Hannah Choi 31:39That's great. I mean, that's a big reason why I wanted to do this podcast was to, you know, be able to teach as many people as I can about executive function skills, and, and that and getting access to, to that does not have to be something that only, you know, some people get to do, and it's ever everyone in the world would benefit from learning about it. And so...Susan Lohman 32:06Absolutely, and when you when you live it, and you love it, and you know that it is so impactful, you do want to share it with everyone, it's like you hold this secret sauce that you do want to share.Hannah Choi 32:20Yeah, I'm going to be doing a presentation at our elementary school about executive function skills. And, and one of the parents, you know, was asking me about it, and when I told her, Well, I just really love it. And I and I want everyone to know what this word executive function means and see how they can benefit from learning. And, and, and she was just so excited, and it felt so good to, to see that the impact, it is so important for people to learn about it. Susan Lohman 32:54When we begin working with teachers, part of our first training around the developing brain, you know, basic overview of how EF skills develop. Part of it is a it's a, it's a self assessment, they can take, it's private, they have the knowledge, but it allows them to recognize what the executive function skills are and what they look like, in life. And they will be able to see where they're really strong and where they might struggle. That way they can look in their classroom, they can look at their students and make a connection through themselvesHannah Choi 33:35Yeah, when you are able to learn about it yourself. And then you can bring that knowledge and understanding to your children or your classroom or whatever. So when you work with teachers, how do you? Like? How, how do you? How do teachers see their own executive function skills? Are they confident in areas that they are talking about it? Are they is it something that they're kind of expected to have these perfect executive function skills? Because they're teachers?Susan Lohman 34:11I don't I honestly and Alison, you can feel free to chime in. I honestly don't think so. Because part of our work is to normalize it. So in the education of executive function skills, normalizing that everyone has strengths that they're naturally, really good at, it feels good to be strong in those skills and the ones they struggle at. Or maybe they struggle with certain skills in certain parts of their life. But normalizing that, and you know, also being really transparent that we use these tools right now do we use those with our, our teachers and our clients and our own kids, we use them too. And we use them because they know they really work and they really do help youAllison Larthey 35:01Yeah, and I would say, I think, you know, I think teachers do carry that burden of having to be the perfect at everything situation of, you know, like, I shouldn't have any weaknesses because I have to be everything for everybody. But right, that's one of the hardest things is, whenever I was trying to do things for my students, when I was regulating for them taking notes for them, making, you know, learning for them, it was harder for me as the teacher, because my students weren't benefiting from it, and I was carrying a lot more weight than is, you know, necessary or useful to anybody. So when I did things with my students, alongside them, modeling it, over, you know, supporting them, it was just more authentic, and it was beneficial for, for them. And for me, that I didn't have to carry the weight of being everything for everybody. I could just be me. And then all of the, you know, all the strengths and weaknesses that come with that. And I think that that's important for teachers to know of that, you know, we don't have to do everything for our students, we don't have to make the study guides for them. We don't have to write the notes for them. And we're doing our students disservice when we do that. We want to bring our students in and have them take ownership of the practice of why would I write this word and not this word? Why did that? Why will that help me remember it later? And what do I really have to study? And how do I break down the material that I've learned, and we can do that even from the youngest age with a spelling list of you know, these are my sight words that I have to I have to know how to spell these. So am I aware of that I know how to spell it or that I don't know how to spell it. And if I'm carrying that weight is the teacher, then my students don't take any ownership over that process. So it's good for us to recognize as teachers that we don't have to carry everything on our shoulders all of the time, we can, we can do it with our students and, and that's a huge benefit to them. And to us at the same time, . Susan Lohman 37:26I worked with a teacher and she had the most beautiful relationship with her students. She was teaching sixth grade, and it was her first year in the school. And she was she was doing exactly what Alison just suggested. She said to them, as you know, I'm brand new and your school, you already experts on your school, I'm the expert on ELA, she was an ELA teacher. And so I want us to have a partnership, I'm going to ask you for help, because I don't know everything about your school, you all know what you've been here for years. And you can then ask me for help on writing papers in your reading. And, and it was so beautiful, because she let that go, she let that I have to do everything, I have to carry the burden. And she really had built a very trusting, respectful loving relationship with their students, so that they could work together and support each other, it was just so fabulous. Hannah Choi 38:33I love that. It's so funny because I was I have a terrible memory. So I had to write a little note down. And what I wrote down was asking for help. And that's what I wanted to say is, is the gift that we can give our students and our clients and ourselves is learning how to ask for help. And learning about executive function skills, we don't have to do it all on our own. So like, you know, something like BrainTracks is a way to support ourselves, our executive function skills and our kids without having to like do all the research ourselves without having to also take that on, like, Okay, I want to learn about executive function skills so that I can really support my kids and make my classroom this really, you know, comfortable place to teach and learn. But you don't also have to do that you can reach out to the experts. And, and I think we think of that. So, so speaking of like, what's been the reaction of the teachers in the schools that you've worked with on once they're open to the idea of bringing the BrainTracks teamAllison Larthey 39:43It's been really fun. It's great to be in the workshops and hearing immediately. This is how I'm going to use this. And during one of our parent workshops, a parent said, you know, right away like, Oh, this is what my son was talking about. because we had already done this school workshop with the students, and she was like, that's why he's breathing like this all of a sudden at home, he's like, taking these breaths and, and calming himself down. And she's like, that's what he's been doing. So it's really fun to see that transfer, you know, immediately there's that like excitement about, you know, oh, I know how I'm gonna use this tomorrow.Susan Lohman 40:24That's really cool. Yeah, and I was gonna say, too, I think that wouldn't begin begin working with schools, they recognize the skills are for immediate use, but they're also long term, what we're sharing in the knowledge that we're teaching and training extends way beyond a student's person's life as a student. And I, we worked with the school with their teachers several times, and now I'm working one on one with their instructional coach, and she was, is so excited because the teachers are using the language, they're using the tools, students are becoming more independent. And, you know, classroom struggles are slowly dissipating. And they are just thrilled that you know, us presenting this content in a manageable way in a realistic illogical way that teachers can use it without a heavy lift of changing, really what they're doing, just adjusting it slightly has such great rewards. It just feels really good from being a teacher and being in classrooms, it feels so feels so great for us to see them making such great strides.Hannah Choi 41:44That's wonderful. And I just had that conversation with a client of mine who's in college and, and she struggles with keeping her her room clean. And so we're going to spend some time working on figuring out a system for that. And I said, you know, what is so cool about this, like, we're practicing this skill on your, your room in your college apartment. But I just like when you're at you're like, Nope, I have to, you know, follow this system that I developed, you know, like, 60 years ago with that coach called Hannah. And, and it is it's, it's it's a gift for life. Yeah, absolutely.Susan Lohman 42:22For sure. For sure. And the great, the greatest thing is when you see someone we've worked with sharing that gift with someone else, or teaching someone else, the tools, it's such a great feeling.Hannah Choi 42:35Yep. Yeah. And that goes back to, you know, like what we were talking before about how, how can we help as many people as possible, and that is one way we can is by teaching people and hopefully they'll see the deep, deep and generalizable benefits of doing of doing that of doing that work? And then and then teaching it to someone else? Yeah, great. Anything else you guys would like to add? Anything you're excited about?Allison Larthey 43:10I'm excited about our open office hours for the teachers that we work with. And that's where they can follow up with us and ask those questions of like, you know, we did the workshop, they've tried some things out. And then they get to dive in a little bit deeper and say, This is what's working. This is not working. How do I you know, it's just this and that I'm really, really excited about?Hannah Choi 43:34Yeah, and are they when they access those office hours? Are they accessing them with teachers from other schools as well? Or just their school?Susan Lohman 43:43Hannah, that's a great question. We haven't set up both ways. If a school prefers to be just have their own time set aside, otherwise, their general that any teacher can can pop in and out, or they can pop in and listen and maybe get some information that they hadn't even hadn't even considered. So something that's really cool. Yeah, something I'm really excited about is our online training modules are up and running and ready to go. They are we're really created to accommodate schools, very tight schedules. So the trainings that we present live on Zoom are also can be taken by teachers on an LMS on a platform, which is so exciting. I'm very excited about that.Hannah Choi 44:37So they can do it at their own pace. Susan Lohman 44:39They can do it at their own pace, they can use it go back and review they can use it for if they want to take part of the trainings via zoom with us and they want to take the other part. So it really allows flexibility. The I would say the one of the challenges with working with schools. It's It's not the funding, it's not the the actual executive function training. It actually is working it into the calendar, the school calendars if they're tight. And that time is allocated about a year out. So the online modules give some flexibility with that.Hannah Choi 45:20And then are teachers able to earn continuing education credits from that as well?Susan Lohman 45:26Yep, absolutely. So that's another huge win. Yes.Hannah Choi 45:30That's great. I love it. And I love that name brain tracks, such a great name, your idea of like laying down these, like, the neural network and the train going through your brain. I love it. That's how it works. Very cool. Well, I was very lucky. I got to I got to talk with Michael Delman are the CEO and founder of beyond booksmart. back last year, and he told me a little bit about about it, and at the time, it hadn't been named. And so it's, it's pretty cool to see it, to see Yeah, really come to fruition. And to really see that you for you guys to really start to see the benefit of of all the work. Yeah, for sure. Congratulations.Susan Lohman 46:14Thank you, Hannah. Thank you so much.Hannah Choi 46:16Yeah. It's so fun to talk about this. Yeah, I'm so glad you guys were able to join me. It's, it's, it's a it's wonderful to hear that more people are getting access to the stuff that we know, is life changing? And could you share with our listeners where they can find out more?Susan Lohman 46:36Absolutely. So they can go to braintracks.com and log into our website, all kinds of great information there. There's also information that they can download and take to their school leaders if they want to share our information. If they have specific questions, they can reserve a time on our calendar directly from the website, or they can email us at info at brain tracks.com.Hannah Choi 47:05I love how accessible the website is it's so easy to read. And it's really easy on the great website. And it's packed full of information. And I also love how, how open and available you are for anyone to find out more information. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. It was really great to talk to you guys.Susan Lohman 47:29Thanks. Thank you so much, Hannah. Our pleasure.Hannah Choi 47:33And that is our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation about executive function skills for teachers and kids. If you're curious about any of the tools we talked about today, check out the show notes for some more information. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Please share this episode with the teachers in your life. I hope they find something in it that makes their teaching experience even more rewarding. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can help us out by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Although each and every Executive Function skill is essential for success in today’s world, one that’s too often-overlooked (if not forgotten entirely) is cognitive flexibility. Whether you’ve heard about this skill or not, cognitive flexibility is critical for adapting to difficult situations and just overall feeling like we have control over our lives. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode, so here we are! I’m going to show you why it’s so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own and of the kids in our lives. If you’re dying for more information about this after you’re done listening, check out the show notes below:Learn More About Cognitive FlexibilityDemystifying cognitive flexibility: Implications for clinical and developmental neuroscienceFlexible Thinking Problems in Kids | UnderstoodKids Use Flexible Thinking to Learn | Executive Functioning Skills | UnderstoodImprove your Cognitive Flexibility SkillsWhat is Flexible Thinking? How to Become a Flexible ThinkerCircle of concern v Circle of control – Discovery in ActionThe Importance of Taking the Perspective of OthersMeditation, mindfulness and cognitive flexibility3 Ways to Improve Your Cognitive FlexibilityCognitive Flexibility Resources from the Beyond BookSmart Blog2 Executive Function Skills to Help Parents Beat Back to School StressGrit + Executive Function skills = Academic SuccessContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Have you heard of cognitive flexibility? Hannah's Daughter 00:02Oh, yeah.Hannah Choi 00:03Why?? Hannah's Daughter 00:04Every day! Cuz I have you as a mom!Hannah Choi 00:08So what's cognitive flexibility?Hannah's Daughter 00:09It's when you have to change the way you're thinking to get something to work.Hannah Choi 00:14Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. As you may have gathered from what you just heard, I'm tackling the topic of cognitive flexibility, or flexible thinking in today's episode. That was my daughter, giving you a little insight into what it's like having an executive function coach for a mom. In Episode 19, Dr. Lisa Shulman, and I talked about the impact of grief and emotional trauma on our executive functioning. And she and I agreed that the often overlooked executive function skill of cognitive flexibility is critical for feeling like we have control over our lives and being successful in making positive changes for ourselves. I really wanted to explore it in its own episode. So here we are, I'm going to show you why it's so important for us, talk about how it fits into our lives, and share some tips for helping to develop cognitive flexibility skills of our own, and of the kids in our lives. If you're dying for more information about this, after you're done listening, check out the show notes. Hannah Choi 00:17All right, so let's get into this. What is this cognitive flexibility? It is the ability of your brain to switch from one task to another, one situation to another, and to be able to think about things in a new way, by switching from one set of ideas to another. Being able to think flexibly comes in handy in many, many aspects of our daily lives. You heard my daughter say that it can be used to help you problem solve. And here are some other ways we might use it. Okay, so you know, when you find out there's a new and pretty major update to an app you've always used, you now need to use a different set of steps to complete the same task as before. That's cognitive flexibility. If you are a kindergarten teacher, and you're talking with your students about kindergarten, new things, and then your school principal comes into the classroom, you use cognitive flexibility to talk with the principal in a different way than you are just talking with your students. If the way that you studied in high school, or kept track of your homework assignments does not seem to be working as well in college, you'll need to use cognitive flexibility to figure out a new system. And one more because I'm not kidding, cognitive flexibility really does come in handy in all aspects of our lives. Okay, so you're sitting at the dinner table for Thanksgiving and your uncle who has completely opposite political views than you is praising a politician you dislike, Being able to defend and explain your point of view, while also seeing and at least trying to understand how he could believe what he believes, that requires cognitive flexibility. And some patience. My son, who plays the violin in a fifth grade townwide orchestra shared how he used cognitive flexibility the other day. Hannah Choi 03:28Can you think of an example of how you use cognitive flexibility today?Hannah's Son 03:33Well, today after school, I had orchestra practice, when I had realized that my music which is in my backpack, we had dropped it off at home, so I didn't have my music. So I was like, oh, no, I don't have my music. But then I realized that I could easily use my stand partners music, and everything would be okay.Hannah Choi 03:53Yeah, so your flexible thinking cognitive flexibility helps you relax and realize it's gonna be fine. Hannah's Son 03:58Yeah. Hannah Choi 03:59Great. I'm so glad that you thought of that. Did you feel better after you thought of it? Hannah's Son 04:03Yeah. Hannah Choi 04:04Oh, good. Okay, so we can see that cognitive flexibility is helpful in our day to day lives. But are there long-term benefits to being cognitively flexible? Studies have found that greater cognitive flexibility is associated with favorable outcomes throughout our lives, such as better reading abilities and childhood, higher resilience to negative life events and stress in adulthood, higher levels of creativity in adulthood, and better quality of life in older individuals. Hannah Choi 04:37Cognitive flexibility does not work on its own. It happens in our brains with the help of some other partner ie if skills, attention, we need to pay attention to what we're doing and also notice what has changed what you were doing before, what you need to do now and how they're different. Working memory, we need to remember the new rules or the new actions that have been created for whatever task needs to be completed. And this could be in school, at work or in our homes. Self-regulation, we need to be able to inhibit or stop doing what we used to do, and now do the new thing. And also being able to regulate our emotions when we're switching to a new way is helpful. Planning and prioritizing skills can help too, we can use them to figure out the best order of the new steps that we'll have to take and see the value in prioritizing the new way of doing things over the old way. And our good old friend metacognition plays a big part in it to being able to understand our own thinking can really help us change it. Cognitive flexibility becomes largely mature by the age of 10. But these skills continue to improve throughout adolescence and into adulthood. And like all the other executive function skills, they reached their peak between the ages of 21 and 30. But as we know, everyone varies and where their strengths and challenges are. Hannah Choi 06:06We hear idioms and phrases in everyday language that reference cognitive flexibility. People may say they used mental gymnastics to figure something out, or that they need to wrap their head around something. We also hear references to the idea of cognitive inflexibility or rigid thinking. The idea is that you can't teach an old dog new tricks and describing someone as stuck in the mud. You might be familiar with this rigid thinking as showing up as stubbornness or strong willpower, no anybody like that. If you or your child struggle with cognitive flexibility, you might see or experience things like having trouble understanding others perspectives, arguing the same point over and over, getting anxious when plans change, struggling to take on new and more complicated tasks, or maybe having trouble switching from one activity to another, or getting upset when others don't follow the rules. At times, even as adults we struggle with thinking flexibly. And this doesn't mean that we haven't matured into our fully flexible prefrontal cortexes. Sometimes we just don't want to be flexible, sometimes it feels easier to keep things as they were, because it requires effort, a new way of thinking, changing the way we've done something or admitting that maybe the way that we've done something is not necessarily the best for us, or the situation. It requires us to use all those related EF skills that I mentioned earlier. And this is a lot of work. And it also requires some level of risk taking. If we take the risk of thinking about doing something another way, we might accidentally come up with a new idea that could possibly work, which we'll then have to try to see if it does. And for some people trying new things. And taking those risks thinking differently, can be a little uncomfortable. I notice for me sometimes, especially when I think it's going to be hard. Hannah Choi 08:03One thing that can make it a little easier is having someone along for the ride. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for you, I suggest finding someone who can support you, meeting you exactly where you are, I believe it can really, really helped to make those uncomfortable new decisions a little easier. And sometimes give you that gentle push, you need to get out of your own way. This person could be a friend, a colleague, a teacher, a sibling, or parent, or an executive function coach or a life coach. We can ask for advice or hear shared experiences, run our new ideas by them or brainstorm some when we're having trouble thinking of any. We can also ask them to provide feedback and some accountability. This makes me think about something that my former client Andrew shared with me, you might remember him from our ADHD Awareness Month episode,Hannah's Son 08:53What you said about having somebody on your side, the value of that in and of itself cannot be overstated. That was one of the most meaningful parts of coaching was just knowing that I could show up as I am. And you met me exactly where I was. There was no expectation that I was supposed to be anything other than what I was at that moment in time. And we were going to meet there. And then we were going to figure out where we wanted to go. And then we would make some plans to get there.Hannah Choi 09:30So basically, I'm saying that making positive changes to our habits and in our lives often is hard. So having some confidence to do this, to take these risks can really help. In order to find that confidence. We must find things that truly work for us. To find these things. We must be able to use our cognitive flexibility access it to imagine that things can even be done differently than we're currently doing them. And we don't have to do this hard work alone. Let's all make sure we've got got someone to support us. Hannah Choi 10:01In addition to making changes to how we do things, cognitive flexibility can help us in other major areas of our lives. It helps with resolving conflict by helping us be able to see other people's perspectives, remember the uncle at the Thanksgiving table, and figure out how to compromise by imagining a solution to a common goal. This compromised solution may require giving up some of our own desires. But cognitive flexibility helps us to see how even without the desires that we had to sacrifice, we can still reach some kind of agreement. Cognitive flexibility also helps us cope with major changes and stressors by giving us the powerful tool of self-efficacy. Self-efficacy is the ability to feel like we have control over our lives and our choices. When we're in the middle of a major life change, such as a divorce, or the loss of a spouse or a major cross country move, feeling like we have some control makes a huge difference. When thinking flexibly comes easily to you, it can make all of these changes much easier to handle. Dr. Shulman shared some great ideas about this. So if you haven't listened to the conversation yet, highly recommend checking it out. Hannah Choi 11:20Okay, so we now know what cognitive flexibility is, we know what the related EF skills are that support our ability to think flexibly. And we've learned how cognitive flexibility can support us in various aspects of our lives. But how do we get better at it? How can we reinforce the development of those skills in ourselves, and if we have kids in our lives, in them, too. I think the first thing we can do is try to make sure that we're taking care of ourselves. It's much easier to access our own flexible thinking when our own needs have been met as much as possible. And I know that this is asking a lot. We have a billion daily challenges, frustrations, limitations, that can make it difficult for us to put on our own oxygen masks, nevermind the masks of those in our care. But at least thinking about this and attempting to address some or even just one of our own self care needs first can help. Hannah Choi 12:22Also, learning about cognitive flexibility is super important. So yay for you for listening to this episode. It can really help to understand that all people, including ourselves, are at their own personal level of ability to think flexibly and make change. As Andrew said, it truly is helpful having someone supporting you through who understands how you feel about making changes, and how much flexibility you are able to access at the time. By understanding the differences in people's abilities, it is easier to meet them where they are in their readiness to think flexibly. And working on our own cognitive flexibility can help ease friction between ourselves and other people in our lives. Whatever age they are, and whatever relationship we have with them. Even as an EF coach, I find that I still need to practice this. I have a client who's a freshman in college, and I was having trouble understanding why he did not want to put specific times to study on his calendar. When I asked him to explain his thinking to me, he shared that he's learned that if he does schedule it, and then let it slide even just once. It's like a slippery slope, and then he'll start letting the other things slide too. For me, this is not the way I work. I love scheduling work time, I had to think flexibly to understand his perspective. This kind of stuff happens all the time with my own kids too. But by having that conversation, figuring out the difference and thinking and working together to understand each other's perspectives, it can make a big difference. And in and also reduce some of that friction and frustration that we feel when we butt heads with our kids. You might argue back that my client should use cognitive flexibility to try out my way of scheduling his study times. But he knows himself, he knows that it won't work. So I needed to give him the autonomy and the space to make that decision to do it his way. If he did not know himself so well and just didn't want to try it. I might have encouraged him to at least just try it once and see how it felt. But ultimately, it would be up to him. His own flexible thinking will develop on his own timeline. Hannah Choi 14:38There are a lot of activities and tools that are helpful for practicing flexible thinking. I'll share some here but check out the show notes for more ideas. As we coaches always say to our clients, when you're trying something new, start small. Maybe if you always cook the same few meals, you could try a new recipe. You could try driving it Different way to work or a new route on your morning run. This reminds me of the conversation I had with Rachel Holstein low in Episode 12. We talked about how you can practice mindfulness by doing something in a different way than you usually and automatically do. So you could brush your teeth with your other hand, or dry yourself off with a towel in a different order than you normally do. The practice of mindfulness has been shown in studies to help in many ways, including improving your attention and your ability to think flexibly. Hannah Choi 15:32A tool that I really like to use is called zooming out, or the 30,000 foot view. This tool works by challenging yourself to look at a situation from different perspectives. For example, my daughter was feeling really stressed out by an upcoming math midterm exam. Because she was in it and feeling completely overwhelmed. I tried to support her cognitive flexibility by encouraging her to zoom out to the day of the test and imagine how she'll feel. Then I asked her to consider how she'd feel if she zoomed out even more to the week after the test. And then to this coming summer, and then even more to when she's graduating from high school. This exercise helped her get out of her current state of thinking, and helped her see that yes, in this moment, it feels like everything. But truly, it's just a blip a fraction of her life. Hannah Choi 16:31Another thing that can be helpful for supporting cognitive flexibility is the concept of a growth mindset. A growth mindset is a belief that intelligence and our abilities are not fixed, that we can change, we can learn we can grow as humans, especially when we learn to think flexibly and find out what areas we are strong in and what areas might need some extra support, and what areas maybe we should completely avoid. I may have wanted to be a doctor growing up, but memory and word recall are not my strong points. So being a doctor would probably not have been the best career choice for me. Hannah Choi 17:11There is a great activity that supports the development of cognitive flexibility from Stephen Covey called the Circles of Concern, Influence and Control. Okay, so if you can imagine a target with three concentric circles, the outer circle represents things you are concerned about. The middle circle are the things you have some influence over. And the small center circle represents the things you actually have control over. thinking flexibly here helps you figure out where the various aspects of your life fit into this target. During the lockdowns or the pandemic, you might have placed the spread of COVID 19 as something that concerned you, but you had no true influence or control over it at all. If you worked from home, you would have had some influence over your workspace by setting up a nice desk in a separate area of the house. But you would not have been able to control any potential interruptions completely. Washing your hands frequently. And wearing a mask when you went out for groceries could go in the middle circle as something that you could control. Learning to be flexible in your thinking here can ease some of the anxiety and pressure we may feel when we're trying to control things that we actually only have influence on or perhaps cannot control at all. Hannah Choi 18:38For younger kids, you could play a divergent thinking game, find objects around the house and think of things that the objects could be other than what they truly are. This cup is not a cup. It's a swimming pool for a fairy. This pencil is not a pencil. It's a balance beam for the caterpillar Olympics. And that tree is not a tree. It's a portal to another world.Hannah Choi 19:04And that's our show for today. I hope you are able to find your portal to a new world of possibilities using your newfound or more developed cognitive flexibility skills. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others to learn about executive function skills such as cognitive flexibility. By sharing our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Have you ever wondered if you're spending too much time on your phone or computer? Well, then you're certainly not alone. Screen use behaviors are top of mind for so many people these days - and for good reason. Over the last few years, our world has fully transformed itself around this technology to a point where spending a majority of our day looking at a screen has become the norm in much of our society. And although screen overuse was a problem pre-pandemic, the issue has accelerated exponentially over the last few years, bringing with it an array of crisis-level challenges for so many people. So what can we do to achieve screen time sanity in today's digital world? To help answer this question, I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a renowned child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance in their screen use - and I say balance because, well let's face it... screens are an avoidable part of life in today's world and its future. As a remote-working parent with a tween who loves video games and a teen who loves her phone, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance, not feel like a hypocrite, and just feel OKAY about my own screen use decisions. However, I learned from my conversation with Dr. Sussman that there are practical things we can all do to find that balance for ourselves and those in our lives we care about. Listen in to our conversation and learn some practical strategies you can use to achieve screen time sanity and find your own balance in our modern digital world.Here are some links to more information about Dr. Sussman and this episode's topic.Learn More About Dr. SussmanDr. Sussman's Website on TrainingsThe Ross Center - Assessment and Treatment of Digital Use DisordersDr. Sussman’s YouTube ChannelThe Ross CenterScreen Use & Executive Function SkillsBeyond BookSmart’s collaboration with Dr. SussmanScreenagers by Delaney RustonContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:00Okay, confession time. Are you listening to me but also looking at something on your phone? It's okay if you are, we can't help it. Instagram, tick tock games, even news websites are created in ways that make you want it. Need it, even when you're doing something else. Our screen use behaviors are top of mind for many people these days. Before the pandemic, it was a problem. Now, for some it's a crisis. Hannah Choi 00:00I reached out to Dr. Clifford Sussman, a child and adolescent psychiatrist in the Washington, DC area, who supports kids and their families who are at the extreme end of struggling with finding balance and their screen use. And notice I said balance. What I learned from Dr. Susman is that balance is the key screens are a part of life, they're not going anywhere. We all know that they have many, many benefits. And when used in a healthy way, we can learn some pretty great skills that apply to other areas of our lives. As a parent of a tween who loves video games, and a teen who loves her phone. And as someone who works remotely from home on a computer for much of the day, married to a partner who also works remotely from home and is literally on a computer all day, I find it very challenging to find a healthy balance and not feel like a hypocrite and just feel okay about my own screen use decisions. I learned from Dr. Sussman that there are practical things that we can do to find that balance for ourselves, and connect with our kids to help them find it. And notice that I didn't say they're easy things we can do. It's definitely not easy. But there is some hope in there that with some focused and thoughtful effort, we can hopefully find that balance and feel better about our own screen use. And if we have kids, there's too. Okay, onto the show. Hannah Choi 00:00Hi, Cliff. Thanks so much for joining me on my podcast.Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:17Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:18Um, would you like to introduce yourselves to our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:21Sure, sure. My name is Dr. Clifford Sussman. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. And I actually specialize in treating internet and video game use disorders. So all of my patients pretty much have some form of problems with excessive screen use.Hannah Choi 02:42Yeah, and that is a hot topic, especially after coming out of that, after having gone through the pandemic and even before, so how did you? How did you get into that? Why is that? How did it become such an important issue for you?Dr. Cliff Sussman 02:57Well, I guess it started, or, you know, early in childhood, discovering I love computers, myself, and I love screens myself. And I was I was always on video games when I was younger, or trying to design them myself. And then eventually learned to code and, and, you know, got really into all that stuff. And then when I became a psychiatrist, and went into private practice, specializing in mostly teenagers, parents were coming in from the day I started about 15 years ago, and telling me that their kids were addicted to video games. So this is long before the pandemic. And I would evaluate these kids because oftentimes, the parents had been that had been dismissed by by the providers they'd seen before me. And so but I would evaluate these kids and I find out that, you know, look, they, they, they have a lot of the same problems that the people I'm seeing, that I saw in my addiction rotations during residency had, you know, the seeking the, the constantly lying, the stealing, the aggression, the defensiveness, the, you know, all sorts of problems with, with, with, with the family, in the family. So, I decided to really do some research, you know, just do a lot of read a lot of studies about how the brain was affected by excessive screen use and comparing those studies to how the brain was accessed was affected by use of other substances. And, you know, started finding a lot of similarities. And eventually I decided that this problem was becoming so big and these people really needed help. That I just I decided that I really could just just work on that. And yeah, and so that there was a lot more demand than supply and providers for this problem and So, you know, and I would collaborate with a few other colleagues who are recognizing this too. You know, when we compare notes on how, you know, what was working and what wasn't. And I would base a lot of my treatments on treatments that had been effective for drug addiction, such as motivational interviewing, motivational interviewing, which is a type of psychotherapy, that's like a mix of cognitive behavioral therapy, and psychodynamic psychotherapy. And, you know, and it just sort of took off from there. And then, after the pandemic, the problem got to be so huge, even during the pandemic, but especially when people started returning to schools and having more demands placed on them. That, you know, I decided that there was no way that I could handle all the cases, you know, and my and a few of my colleagues who are who are recognizing this. And so, I decided to start putting a lot of focus and doing things like this, where I can educate the community, and I even have a lot of stuff now, where I'm training other providers, a lot of doing courses for other providers online, and things like that.Hannah Choi 06:16That's great. I would love to talk with you more about that later on. I do have a question for you about the brain. You mentioned the brain, what? What happens in the brain? And I know that there's dopamine involved, but maybe for our listeners, you can explain what happens in the brain when, you know, when someone really feels like they need to be on a screen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 06:43Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, that that is it is related to dopamine. And so So dopamine is the neurotransmitter that we release, it's thought of as the pleasure neurotransmitter. So people think we just release it when we get pleasure. But it's a little more nuanced than that we release dopamine when we get exactly what we want, when we want. So I think people people think of if you got pleasure, but it was very delayed, you know, you wouldn't release as much dopamine as if you got the same pleasure right away. So that's why things like cigarettes, which don't get you nearly as high as other drugs, but get you that buzz right away, because you smoke it, and the smoke goes right into your bloodstream, they release a lot of dopamine, and our, you know, easily as addictive as much more intoxicating drugs that have more delayed. So, you know, it was a real survival, a real survival neurotransmitter. Because, you know, when you're, let's say, a caveman, you, you need something right away, it helps you survive if you get it right away. Right, right, you know, so you know, you want to satisfy those needs immediately. Before you get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger.Hannah Choi 08:14We don't want that to happen.Dr. Cliff Sussman 08:16So yeah, so what happens in the brain when, when, when we're on anything that gives us instant gratification. And in particular screens, because that gives us not just instant gratification, but continuous instant gratification, is it the brain releases lots of dopamine. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that, what's the problem is when you keep doing it, and when the brain keeps releasing dopamine for hours and hours on end, right, like cavemen never got what they wanted for that long at a time. I mean, so the brain wasn't designed to handle that much of getting what you want for that long time. And so what happens is you become desensitized to dopamine, the receptors in the brain for dopamine, they, they go through a process called downregulation. And that and a bunch of other more complicated processes, basically result in you needing to work even harder to get instant gratification. And, and getting the same amount of dopamine that you did before won't feel as good. So you need even more. And so that's why that's one of the reasons why it's just so hard to get off screen. When you've been on it for a really long time. You know, when when you get off and stop getting that dopamine. Now you you actually feel worse than before you start.Hannah Choi 09:43Right. So you want to get back on to avoid that feeling.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:49 Yeah, and that's really basically the process in all addictions.Hannah Choi 09:52Yeah, right, right. Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 09:54So it's like it's like too much of a good thing. You know, I don't and I like it. said I enjoy gaming, you know, so I don't I don't think that that using a video game for a half an hour or an hour is such a terrible thing. I think it can be a great experience. And there's lots of even educational opportunities or, you know, opportunities to solve puzzles are make friends or do all sorts of great things, right? Yeah. But it's the hours and hours and hours on end. And when people during the pandemic, we're living in the virtual world instead of the real world, it really got to be a big problem.Hannah Choi 10:31Yeah, right. So I had a personal experience with this. A couple of weeks ago, my son and I both had COVID at the same time, so he and I were all like, we're Yeah, it was, yeah, it was not fun. And, and so we were both isolated, we're both the same room, and I had work I had to do, and he did not feel great. So I let him use his, like, play Minecraft and do screens like, kind of all day. And I, I felt so guilty because I know!Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:03And that was the first time you'd done that? Because most parents I've worked with have found that out, have crossed that a long time ago, you knowHannah Choi 11:11Yeah, I mean, I guess I had done it. But it hadn't been in a while. And it hadn't been for so many days. And I did notice afterwards, he had a hard time, like thinking of something else to do. And, and I didn't feel great. So I had a hard time motivating myself to encourage him to do something different. So I can see how...Dr. Cliff Sussman 11:36Everything else starts to pale in comparison. Yeah, you know, it can turn an, you know, I like to divide activities into what I call high dopamine activities. I use HDA for short and long dopamine activities, or LDA. And I call you know, the, there's a lot of low dopamine activities that are enjoyable, meaning activities that just require more patience that have more delay in their gratification, but they're still gratifying. Right? So you know, so we're not just talking about homework and exercise, we're also talking about things like putting together a jigsaw puzzle, you know, painting a picture, learning to play an instrument. These things, you know, those are the types of things that your son might really enjoy doing, until they've, you know, gotten a taste of a high dopamine activity for a very long time. You know, and then all of a sudden, those other things, just, you know, well, the thing you heard all the time during the pandemic was I'm bored. There's nothing to do.Hannah Choi 12:39Yeah, there's nothing right. Yeah, yeah. It's funny that you say play an instrument. So my son plays piano, and I, I'm thinking about it, like I did notice when we came out of isolation, and we were back in the real world, it was harder for him to like, sit down and play the piano, but I am noticing over the past few days, he's, he's kind of getting back into it now. So that's not permanent.Dr. Cliff Sussman 13:04And you don't want to forget that. I played the piano when I was a kid for a couple years. And I think I said to my mom, you know, look, for my seventh birthday, can I just quit piano because the processing is really boring, and I don't want to have to learn all the skills. And she's like, okay, you know, and, and then a couple years later, I guess when I became a teenager, I was like, I really wish I knew how to play an instrument. Mom, why did you let me I took up guitar instead. Okay, so that's good. But yeah, it's important when kids get bored with their instruments, not to like, Forget everything they know, and just come away from it to try and just pick it up every now and then keep it a little fresh.Hannah Choi 13:48Right, right. So that makes me think of like, how can this might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how can people balance? How can people find a nice balance between those LDAs and HDA active, activities?Dr. Cliff Sussman 14:04Well, you're hitting the nail on the head. I mean, to me, that's the real key is finding a balance, right? Because you're definitely let's face it in this world, you're not going to have abstinence from the digital world. You know, and it's impossible. Yeah. And and, you know, you wouldn't function very well if you did, to be honest. So it really is about finding balance. And so I have a lot of suggestions for how to do that on my website that you were referring to earlier at CliffordSussmanmd.com. But I can try to highlight some of the main ones. So I think the some of the biggest keys are having a lot of structure in your schedule. You know, having and keeping a schedule, you know, keeping a routine that was so important during the pandemic, when you know, prior to the pandemic, a big ratio of my patients were first year college dropouts, because they went from the highly structured setting of high school to the unstructured setting of college. And so that allows for hours and hours of binging. Well, during the pandemic, it basically like every high school kid became a college kid, because they were at home with like, very little structure. And so, you know, so structure is really key to balance. Having something to do at a certain time until a certain time, you know, getting your kids involved in daily repeating activities, like sports, or music, or joining a chorus or something like that Robotics Club. So that's important. I would also say that setting some some time limits, consistent time limits to how long you can be on a screen, but also, how long you need to be off a screen or at least doing a low dopamine activity, if it is on a screen until you can get on again, it's really important for balance. But the number one thing is, as I already alluded to, is not binging you know, so. So if you're, if you're keeping each screen block to a consistent length of time, that's, let's say, an hour or less, depending on the age of the child, and waiting at least that amount of time before you get on again, you know, especially during unstructured time, then then I think you're going to be way ahead of the game for most families. And that's how I'd answer that.Hannah Choi 16:47Yeah, those are really great suggestions. And, and I like that there is so much balance built into all of those suggestions. So it really does show that that is the key. So it's something that we had talked about earlier, and I had never I had never thought about this before. But you, you talked about how people use the word addiction, like screen addiction, casually, like "Oh, I'm so addicted to my screen". But that's not technically true. Right? Can you explain to the listeners, what the difference is between addiction and what you said was functional dependence?Dr. Cliff Sussman 17:25Yeah, well, so. So what addiction really means is that you're you can't get off of something, despite the problems it's causing for you. So it's, it's the inability to control an activity. Combined with it having causing dysfunction in your life. And the level of addiction is measured by not how many hours you're on a screen, or how much of a drug you're taking, but how much it's negatively affecting your life. So, and I do think people think of addiction as kind of an all or nothing thing, but it really is, to me, it's more of a continuum, like you can be really addicted to something. If you're you've like dropped out of school, and you still earn 1000s of dollars, and you know, your life is completely in shambles. Or you can be a little addicted to something if you know, dropped your grades from an A to a B minus, you know, so. But I mean, I think kids generally when they say this game is so addictive, what they mean is that they can't stop playing. And so they're not completely wrong, you know, because it is designed that way to make it so they can't stop playing. As far as like, being dependent on something that just means you know what it sounds like, like you need it, like you can't function without it. And so, you know, you can be the you can be dependent on something without being addicted to it if you still can manage your life and live a good life that's successful, where you're getting what you need out of it. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, think of a diabetic dependent on insulin, right? I mean, they can't live without it. But that doesn't mean that it's dysfunctional to take right, you know, and so a lot of us really need our screens. We need them like right now we're on screens, you know, that that doesn't make us addicted, right. We're using it in a functional way now. Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's, does that answer your question?Hannah Choi 19:36Yeah. Yeah, it does. And what you just said reminds me of going back to when my son and I were isolating together in during the time of COVID I was on my I felt guilty because I was on my screen. So I felt a little bit like I was being, you know, hypocritical, because I was saying, like, you need to get off and here I am, you know, typing away on my screen. And, but I didn't want to be on, I had to be on there.Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:04You were doing low dopamine screen actors,Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:06Yeah, it was very low-dopamine!Dr. Cliff Sussman 20:08You were setting a good example. But what I do see a lot of parents doing is, you know, they're on a cell phone, let's say, going down all these rabbit holes of social media, you know, saying to their kid to get off a video game that doesn't play very, you know, and there's definitely a lot of parents I work with who are who are sort of like, struggling themselves to get off their screens. And, you know, so and let's face it, like with all drug use, and all substances, with all behavioral addictions, like it runs in families, right, it's, there's a genetic component. So yeah, and by the way, you you mentioned this, this episode of, of you and your son being sick. And, you know, one of the problems with that is that you're trapped in the house, you know, you can't like go outside to do low dopamine activities, where there's probably a lot more dopamine activities, you know, so, but that also is a reason I emphasize, because people had to stay injuring COVID, you know, during for quarantine purposes, as well. So, I emphasized a lot of environmental cues, like being aware of environmental cues as as a big part of achieving balance. So if you're, if an alcoholic is avoids going in the bar, it's much harder, it's much easier to avoid having a drink, right? It's much harder when you're in the bar. Because you have all the cues of the bar, you have the sights, sounds and smells, you know, the, you see a row of bottles, you see the bartender, it's like, it's very hard to drink water in a bar. And so, so what I try to help parents do, and this is kind of a extended answer to your question about how to, you know, how do you get balance, because I try to help them have like low dopamine and high dopamine zones in the house. So you start to associate cues of like what activity you should be doing. So in other words, when we were, you know, before COVID, and since since the quarantines ended, when kids do their learning, they're in a classroom, right. And so they're sitting at a desk, they've got a teacher, they got a whiteboard, they've got hopefully other kids around, like, maybe some of them at least paying attention to the teacher. And, you know, so they've got the cues around them that, hey, it's time to learn, you know, but when they were, when they were taking class during COVID, they were on the same screen, they were playing Minecraft on all day. And usually, they had another screen open with Discord on it. So like, good luck, you know, that that's really trying to drink water in a bar. So that's why I emphasize a lot, like look at what your home looks like, you know, do you have a separate area for where they do their gaming? And for where they do their studying? You know, and they're sleeping, you know, are they just do they have a cell phone and three other devices next to their bed all the time or next to where they're doing their work? Because if so, good luck, you know, they're getting the wrong cues. You know, so I tried to emphasize having a zone in the house put aside kind of like an arcade room, where, when it's time for kids to have their high dopamine activities, they can go into that sort of arcade room. And, you know, all the devices will be in there. But the catch is that when that hour or whatever is up, maybe half an hour, if they're a little kid, the devices stay in there, and they leave. And they go back into the low dopamine zone. Yeah, a little zone, because so, so that way, you know what, what happens is, you don't have to rip a device out of the kid's hand, you just have to get them to go from one location to another.Hannah Choi 24:02Right, right. Yeah. And so then if it like, say, you don't have a separate place, could you just say, like, you always have to sit? Like if you're going to be using your game, your whatever, you have to sit at this table or something?Dr. Cliff Sussman 24:16Yeah. Although although usually if it's a teenager and you say you have to do something, they'll do the opposite. So yeah. You know, kind of work on how you how you discuss it with them, but that could be the rules that you agree on, you know, and, and, you know, and if you make rules like that, you can also clarify what the sort of natural or logical consequence of breaking those rules are, because they're going to, you know, so Right. Yeah. So like if for example, if they stay in the in the high dopamine room for longer than they're supposed to, you could agree on something like okay, you were in there five minutes too long. So you lose three times five, which is 15 minutes off the next lock in there. You And then you don't need a power struggle, you know? Yeah. Right. You can even reward them for getting off on their own in time. Just not with extra screen time. Yeah.Hannah Choi 25:10Yeah, you get half an hour more.Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:14Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I that's a system that's worked for a lot of my parents.Hannah Choi 25:19And do would you say, in general, kids are open to talking with their parents about their screen use and in screen use behavior? And, and kind of discussing what it's like for them?Dr. Cliff Sussman 25:35Well, it depends on the kid, you know, and it depends on their age. And, you know, I mean, for so so that's a complicated question. You know, if you have a kid who's like really addicted to screens and kids, and really struggling with it, they may be in denial, which and so they may be get very defensive when parents tried to talk to them about it. But then at the same time, there's, there's like, it's a normal teenage thing to not want to discuss everything with your parents, and not necessarily want to share all your feelings with them, especially when you're in that early teenage, those early teenage years, like 12-13, because you're trying to like, sort out your, your identity among your peers, and you're trying to sort of push a cast aside the previous generation and join your peers. So, you know, so So I don't think parents should take it too, personally, if their kids don't want to talk about it. But you know, kids do like when their parents care about what they're interested in, you know, and if you, you know, can validate that they really enjoy their games, and that they really enjoy their computer and that they're not, you know, that, that it can be really tough for them to stop. You know, what you don't want to do as a parent and see, like I just, you know, you don't want to say to your kid, like, like that, you know, I don't understand why that's fun for you. That's, you know, that's not important. You shouldn't be doing because to them, it's very important. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's, it may be how they're socializing. It may be how, I mean, they may care a lot about how a lot more about how well they do in a video game than other things. And, you know, you may not agree with that, but you got to meet them where they are good luck reaching them,Hannah Choi 27:24you know, yeah, yeah, you can't reach them unless you validate them.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:27Yeah. And validating a behavior is not the same as enabling it. You know, I think that's important for parents, just because you're acknowledging that a kid loves their video game, or that they're really upset about having to stop playing it. You know, rather than pretending they're not upset, you know, that that's not the same thing as saying, Oh, you can have all the games you want, you know?Hannah Choi 27:50Yeah, that's such an important point to remember.Dr. Cliff Sussman 27:55You can set limits, but then validate how, you know, the effect it's having on them, trying to abide by those limits.Hannah Choi 28:02Right. And then also, I imagine sharing your own experience with having challenges regulating your own screen use. And, you know, sharing Yeah, like, I get that, because I feel that way about whatever. And so. So for parents, those, those cues for the kids can also be the parents behavior, and just being a good role model. Right?Dr. Cliff Sussman 28:31Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, kids are much more likely to do what we do than what we say. So, you know, I think the most effective way to really influence our kids being self regulated and balanced is to be that way ourselves and to work on that ourselves as parents and actually model that behavior. You know, and maybe even like, let let your child know, look, I you know, I set a timer, and I stopped when the timer went off, and it wasn't easy for me to do I want to keep doing it, but I have to get back to work, you know. So, you know, your, your basic your being a good influence on that type of behavior.Hannah Choi 29:14Yeah. Just thinking about my own house and how, how we do things. Yeah. And it's hard. I mean, it's it's really hard. You're right, they do. They the the makers of all these things, every website, every every social media app, every game, they make it so you want it. You want it bad, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. If you're just reading the news, you just pull down and then you got a whole new news article to read.Dr. Cliff Sussman 29:42Yeah, well, there's endless scrolling. It's all you know, it's all sort of designed and coded the way they know we'll get people to stay on the longest. So you know, and even they even have AI that does that. So, and you know, and they understand like the basic psychological concepts concepts of things like gambling, that, you know, if you, if you give people a different reward every time, and sometimes no reward at all. It's the whatever, whatever it is, they're going to do a lot more of than if you just reward them the same way each time. So that's called variable ratio reinforcement. And that's why, you know, when you're scrolling down, you know, sometimes it's like, for example, you may think, Okay, well, this AI isn't very good, because they keep showing me things in my feed that I'm not interested in at all right. And occasionally, I'll like one, and I'll click on it, you know, or occasionally, I'll find something that's interesting, you know, but I have to keep scrolling and scrolling until I actually find something. Well, guess what, that's what they want. They don't want you to like everything. I mean, for one thing, they can't get any information about you, if you like everything, but for another thing, you know, that it's not as addictive if you like everything. You know, it's actually more addictive, if you're disappointed sometimes. And if there's like, maybe I'll like the next one better, right? That's why you see people in the casinos just pulling those levers over and over again, on the slot machine.Hannah Choi 31:11Yeah, right, that same action. Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:14Like mice. Hannah Choi 31:17We're all just a bunch of mice. Don't those don't the makers of like the people that that apply that psychology? Don't they have some? Gosh, some guilt or something like, oh, they have to be, uhhh, I don't get it.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:33Ethics and money don't always go together? But, you knowHannah Choi 31:35No, no.Dr. Cliff Sussman 31:36I mean, that's the world we're in. You know, I mean, I have very little control over the tech industry, I have a lot more say, I think and you know, what messages I can send to parents and kids about the way to cope with this type of, you know, just how to play the cards were dealt the best, you know, how to really, you know, maybe that was a bad analogy.Hannah Choi 32:02Bringing us back to gambling!Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:03Yeah, bringing us back to gambling. But yeah, I mean, just how to how to deal with this challenge that we're always faced with, you know, I mean, there's always, there's always struggles and challenges for humans to survive. And this is the one we have right now.Hannah Choi 32:19This is the one we have right now. Yeah, yep. Yeah. No more saber toothed tigers. That's good.Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:26Yeah, that's right. I mean, yeah, I guess we're doing a little better.Hannah Choi 32:32So what do you like, what about, are there any trends or things? You know, speaking of now that it's just it is just part of life? Is there anything that's really important for people to know about? About this? Like, is there any additional message that you would like to share with our listeners?Dr. Cliff Sussman 32:53Well, um, a lot of parents asked me about parental control software. I, again, I think if you have the boundaries, clear on things like, you know, low dopamine and high dopamine areas, you don't need as much of that, you know, I like direct parental engagement, I think that's a good healthy thing. And I think sometimes parents rely too much on computers to do it for them. And so like parental control software, and things like that. So it goes beyond just the fact that kids can hack around it, that I that I, you know, tell parents to not completely rely on parental control software, that it's important to have clear rules laid out and consequences and to be able to interact with your kids concerning those consequences. Without having major power struggles and being able to really, again, try to meet them where they are, but also, you know, set some limits. And, you know, and find a balance as a parent between setting limits, and allowing your kids to self regulate, and, and not to micromanage them too much, and let them learn from their own natural consequences.Hannah Choi 34:14Yeah, and if you don't provide them the opportunities to do that, when they do go off to college, or go move out of the house and move on to their own, then they're not going to have any experience to draw from, or resources to draw from. Exactly. Yeah. And it is difficult because there are so many resources out there and a lot of parents not resources, but a lot of those parental control apps or programs. And also, they may be their friends or using them to feel like oh, like maybe I should use this. You're my kid and it's harder to just like rely on your own your Yeah, relationship with your child.Dr. Cliff Sussman 35:02And, and, and even if other parents are using them. They may be, like, we don't know exactly how they're using them, ya know. So if even if you get the software, you know, it's, and you find that it helps for some things you don't want, it's just that you don't want to depend on it too much, you know, you don't want to over rely on it. Like, for example, I think that like screen time, the screen time app on iPhones, for example, is a good way to just track what your kids are doing online. Like it tells you what apps they're on, but it also tells you how much time they were on their phone. Yeah. You know, to some extent, and, you know, sometimes it can, it can misread things, but but the point is that it's a good way to just have feedback on what your kids are doing. But it's not doing the policing for you. It's not, like cutting them off, it's just giving you the information, it's just giving you the information. So it helps you monitor as the parent. And that's pretty useful. You know, if you don't want to be looking over their shoulder all the time, but at the same time, I think sometimes it's good to like actually go in the room where they're studying.Hannah Choi 35:14Yeah, whatcha doing? Yeah.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:15I mean, if every time you go in while they're doing homework, they're like minimizing, you know, an app like, you know, something's you know, the homeworks not getting done.Hannah Choi 36:25Yeah, yeah. It's also beneficial for the kid to learn how many hours they're spending on it. I think that we don't realize how quickly time flies while we're on that. I had, I had a client who I had, he had never looked at his he was in college, and he had never looked at his screen time use. And so I just encouraged him to, and oh, my god, I just, my heart broke for him, I'll never in my life forget the way that his face, his jaw just dropped. He had no idea he wouldn't tell me the time.Dr. Cliff Sussman 36:58Yeah, it's called time distortion, you know, track of real world time. And it certainly happens to me when I play video games, which is why I set a timer. You know, it's like surprised by how soon it goes off.Hannah Choi 37:11I am not really I'm not into video games, and I'm not, I'm very much a like practical person when it comes to my phone. Like I'm on it a lot, but it's just because I'm like texting or researching something. But recently, I did look at my time totals, and I realized my Instagram was kind of out of control. Yeah, so I put a time limit on there. And it really has helped. Yeah. But but that's just me. And that's, you know, that's how I am. And I know, like for my son, it's a lot harder. He's and my husband to it's they're just different. They're very different for me with how they use their phones.Dr. Cliff Sussman 37:49Yeah, and social media is a big time suck. But, you know, look, I think that there's two skills that we need to have to be able to have use our devices in a healthy way. Like, we need to be able to delay our gratification, which means we can't be like checking our Instagrams every five minutes, you know, and, and then we need to be able to put on the brakes, like we need to be able to stop when it's time to stop, you know, when the timer does go off, we have to stop and move on. And transition. And those are two skills that we wouldn't really develop at all if we were just abstinent. You know, so it's like, it's actually. So I see screentime as an opportunity to work on those skills, you know, and, and so I'll present it to kids is kind of a challenge for them. You know, you, you know, if, if they were seeing me for cocaine, they I wouldn't be saying to them, Well, you know, you could try to wait before you use your cocaine and stop using in the middle. But you can you actually have that opportunity with screens? Yeah, you know, to work on those skills. And their skills, not just for screening is there. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:01that's what I was. Right? I was just gonna say that. Yeah. Yep. So how can we, as you know, like me as an executive function coach and protect other practitioners who might not know about handling, screen, excessive screen use or screen addiction? How can we support our clients that might be struggling that with that,Dr. Cliff Sussman 39:28Right, so there is more education out there now on the nature of this problem, and also suggestions for how to how to manage it. So you could, I have a course for example, on the Ross Center website, it's and it provides CE credits for some practitioners. But for others, it's if you're not getting the credits, and you're just taking the course it's less expensive, so and it's a very inexpensive course to begin with so, so you can get the link for that at my website or just go to the Ross Center's website. Yeah, I mean, also, I think that there's, there's a, there's a lot of good resources, I was the technical editor for Overcoming Internet Addiction for Dummies. And I think that book came out nice. That was my colleague, David Greenfield. So, there's a lot of good stuff in there. You know, I think I think clinicians have to just be aware of it and start recognizing it, and they should also know, sort of the red flags to look for. And if they're, if they don't specialize in it, when they see those red flags, they should be able to, you know, maybe refer to somebody who's an expert in that. So just, you know, know, the signs of addiction. And, you know, I'll, of course look for things like kids. You know, mental health professionals know, for example, the screen for suicide, but that you should screen for, you know, is a kid threatening to kill themselves, particularly when the parents are taking the screen away. You know, I like they're there. So there's red flags that are more directly related to screen problems, you know?Hannah Choi 41:21And then I guess a related question would be, how can at what point should parents seek help outside of the, you know, tips and ideas that we've already talked about today?Dr. Cliff Sussman 41:34Well, parents should be aware of some red flags to just like clinicians should and then that, and that's definitely when to go for help. So things like, you know, excessive lying about screen use, stealing money to use screens, and the kids I work with aren't just, like, using their hacking skills to steal their parents credit card information on the computer, they're literally going into the wallets and removing the credit cards, like, That's how desperate they are to get on as fast as possible. There. Yeah. So also things like aggression, when you try to separate the kid from their screen. You know, just a lot of irritability, when they're not on their screen. You know, a lot of a lot of parents, if they can't get help immediately, and they really suspect there's a big problem, they may want to try just having like a, say, a three to seven day screen detox, you know, like, try going on a camping trip, or going on vacation somewhere and just getting your kids disconnected from the internetHannah Choi 42:47With a natural limitation on theDr. Cliff Sussman 42:49Yeah, with a lot of structure in the environment. And, you know, you will see, a lot of parents will see huge changes just from really after, I'd say the second day, they can start seeing kids, like their personalities completely changed. And a lot of those red flags like, seemingly gone, which doesn't mean that your problem is gone, it probably just proves you have the problem that you know, me because as soon as they get their screens back, you know, those those problems will come back. So that's when you have to learn the balance. But starting out with a detox is often a good approach.Hannah Choi 43:29Yeah. And I like how you suggested like, on like going camping or something where so it's not, it's not you as the parent saying, we can't. It's the nature nature is saying you can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners that is?Dr. Cliff Sussman 43:51Well, just emphasize that that, like what you said at the beginning, that there's a lot of more information they can get on my website. So CliffordSussmanmd.com.Hannah Choi 44:06Yeah, you have to check out i'll put the link in the show notes. Cliff's website is just packed full of really, really, like useful actionable tips and ideas. And, and I have to say, looking through it made me feel better about my concerns about my own kids screen use and how that there are a lot of like, really good things that we can do. And there's a lot of support and information out there. Dr. Cliff Sussman 44:39Yeah, we need more though. We're going to and we're going to work on that we're going to work on getting a lot more support for parents struggling with this and, you know, cuz cuz more and more of us are becoming aware of how huge a crisis this is, and we're not ignoring the elephant in the room, you know.Hannah Choi 44:56Right. Yeah, it is time to tackle that elephant and to take control. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. It was really interesting. And, and there is some hope in there as you know, as, as we were saying we are really surrounded by it. And it is really difficult to, yeah, like you said, you can't practice abstinence. It's just not possible. But there are a lot of really great strategies that and also opportunities to learn and opportunities to connect with your kids, which are never not a good use of your time. Yeah, that's right. Great. All right. Well, thanks again for joining me. And, yes, listeners, please check out the show notes because you'll, you'll just be really glad to see all this information there. All right. Okay. Thanks. Dr. Cliff Sussman 45:48Thank you. Bye, bye.Hannah Choi 45:50And that's our show for today. You can now get back to what you were doing before I so rudely called you out on it. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can do whatever you want. And I sure won't judge you for it because I am over here trying to find my own screen use balance. But if you've got the time, be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about Dr. Sussman and the excellent work he's doing. If you're a provider of support for people who may be dealing with screen addiction, I recommend taking a look at his training materials. There are some excellent resources in there. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. Help us help others learn about executive function skills. Please share our podcast with your colleagues, your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening.

On this episode, I’m taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our Executive Functioning. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. Even though grief and emotional trauma are part of being human, they're both really hard to talk about as we all have experienced or will experience some form of each within our lives. However, not only is everyone’s reaction to grief different, but everyone’s reaction to other people’s grief is different, too. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about. Most of all, hopefully finding some answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. After all, things won’t be the same after loss, so how can we navigate that? I reached out to Dr. Lisa Shulman who is a neurologist and a professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and Our Brain. Her focus on the brain’s reaction to grief and, as you’ll hear her explain, emotional trauma, was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa’s personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic. Her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more and her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. Show NotesLearn more about Dr. Lisa ShulmanRead Lisa’s book Before and After Loss: A Neurologist's Perspective on Loss, Grief, and our BrainLearn More about Jody LaVoieWatch Hannah’s conversation with Jody on our YouTube ChannelResources on Grief, Loss, and EmotionsGrief Board of Directors Template by Jody LaVoieHow to Feel Your Feelings by @emilyonlife (on Instagram)Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscript from Hannah's Conversation with Jody LaVoie (continue scrolling to find the transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman)Hannah Choi 00:00So hi, Jody, thank you so much for joining me on my podcast today.Jody LaVoie 00:27Hi Hannah, thanks for having me. I love talking about this with you.Hannah Choi 00:31Great. So I spoke with Dr. Lisa Shulman earlier in the at the end of last year, and she and I had a great conversation about grief and emotional trauma and how that impacts executive functioning. And I wanted to talk with you because I know that you work with widows who are getting back to...Or maybe you can explain it to me, why don't you explain to me who you work with and how you support them?Jody LaVoie 01:04Yes, no, absolutely. So I am a grief and loss expert. I'm also a widow, myself. I'm a mom, and I've run a business. And I help widows learn to fall in love with their life again. And you brought up an excellent point, Hannah about when when would somebody kind of start being able to feel like they're ready to figure out how to fall in their love with their life again, and it's generally when kind of that overwhelm of grief happens, and you're just trying to check off tasks. And you wake up one day, and you're like, you know, there's got to be more I'm doing it. I'm doing the day to day stuff I'm functioning, but I'm just functioning, how can I find more?Hannah Choi 01:54So at what point would someone reach out for someone, for some support with someone like you?Jody LaVoie 02:28You know, Hannah, it's different for everyone. And I'll give a couple of examples. So when someone receives a terminal diagnosis for their spouse, they start grieving right away, even though they're hopeful. And they're working hard with experimental treatments to, you know, try to not have this person pass away, their grief starts then. So they could come work with me, you know, right. When their spouse dies, I worked with a client even before her spouse had passed away, because she had started grieving a year and a half prior. So for other widows that lose their spouse, suddenly, that's they're in shock. And it takes a little bit of time for them to get to that place of okay, I'm functioning. But I know there's gotta be more.Hannah Choi 03:22Yeah. And after talking with, with Lisa Schulman and learning about how, how loss and emotional trauma impacts our executive functioning, it, it completely makes sense that someone would have might have to wait and not be able to just start to tackle life again, when it has been what has been traumatic and sudden, imagine it. Yes. Do you have to wait? So what are some, what do you recommend to your to the people that you work with? What are some strategies that people can try?Jody LaVoie 04:00You know, and I know we're keeping to executive functioning strategies, which is so important, because obviously, we all need to be able to function our day to day lives and thrive in our day to day lives. And how can we do that better? So the really, the first and foremost thing that we work on is our thoughts, and working on where those thoughts come from. And that doesn't mean that we're ignoring grief. We're pushing the pain away. We're not feeling it just means our thoughts trigger our behaviors, which trigger emotions and it's this endless cycle. And so if you can, there's a couple strategies with your thoughts. One, one, that thought happens if you can pause, just take a breath and actually try to think about, okay, what is this thought really, and where is it coming from and what, what is my action that I'm taking guessing, based on this thought, and what should I be doing differently? So that's one way to do it. And the second thing, there's a series of four questions that I love, there is a coach, an author named Byron Katie, and she helps people really with self-inquiry. And she believes that if you ask yourself these four questions, it, it really promotes thinking and changing. And the first one is ask yourself, if that thought is really true. Is it really true? Second, Can you absolutely know, it's true? Is the second question. Third question. How do you react? And what happens when you believe that thought? And fourth question is, who would you be with out that thought, and that's really releasing and breathing. And, and you as, as the widow and as any person, or now take, taking control of your thought process. And that takes a while. And it takes practice. But just that act of recognizing, so important?Hannah Choi 06:12Yeah, I love that. I remember, one strategy that I learned for grief, that that that I that really helped me was to recognize that you're feeling it and then label the feelings that you're having or label what is happening. Instead of instead of just feeling it also just sort of identify what you're going through, and then and let it happen. And then acknowledge that it happened and sounds like a similar process.Jody LaVoie 06:47Very, very much so and it is so important to label your feelings, feel your feelings. But it's also important to put some parameters around that too, if you are able, I mean, not everybody is able. Everybody is in a different stage. But if you are in the process of okay, feeling sad, it is okay to acknowledge that I'm feeling sad, and I'm missing my person. But I'm going to sit in it for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then I'm going to get off the couch or out of my bed and go do something to move to a different place. So that's, that's, that's helpful as well.Hannah Choi 07:28Yeah. And setting parameters. And that, that requires a lot of a lot of perseverance and, and discipline, but but also, then, I imagine opens up a lot of opportunities for you once you're able to set those parameters.Jody LaVoie 07:45Absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 07:47What's something else that you recommend for your?Jody LaVoie 07:51Well as a widow, and I know with Dr. Shulman, you talked a lot about that early stage grief, it's hard to just get stuff done. And all of a sudden, you've have an overwhelming amount of tasks that were just dumped on your plate, not only going through, you know all the paperwork and all of the different things that one must do after you lose a spouse, but that spouse helped around the house help do the errands, help take care of the kids, you now are doing that all on your own. So pick one thing and create a SMART goal around it. Because it's one thing to say, Okay, I am going to get to the gym five days this week. Great. Did you put it on the calendar? Do you know exactly what you're going to do with your what is your outcome you want to have until you actually take action? And put it on your calendar? Like we're not going to happen?Hannah Choi 08:48Yeah, yeah, we love those smart goals at Beyond BookSmart. And we use, we use them a lot. And I know that they really help make those goals more meaningful. So it makes sense that that that would be a really useful, useful strategy to use. Yeah. That's great. Glad to hear you use those as well.Jody LaVoie 09:07Absolutely.Hannah Choi 09:08Yeah. Do you have any other tips?Jody LaVoie 09:12You know, I do. And I love this one. And this helped me a lot. It's creating, I call it your Widow Board of Directors. And I was running a business. So therefore this board of directors concept really, really resonates with me, but these are your people that have your back. These are your people that are going to help you. This is your best friend who's going to run cover for you. If you're if you're like going out today's not a great day. And I need help getting my kids to soccer. You can reach out to this one person and have them get it done. You can have another person that's helping you with your business decisions or your career decisions or just work decisions in general because I As a grieving person, we're not firing on all cylinders, we've got a lot in our brain, and that can cause distractions. But yet, we still want to exceed at our jobs, we still want to get those things done, but have your person that you can call on to help with with that. So designate people to be active in various aspects of your life and, and tell them, here's what I need from you, I need you to check in on me weekly, or I NEED you, but be specific about their role, and the action they need to take.Hannah Choi 10:36And I imagine that can be a difficult thing for people to do. I know, I know, a lot of the clients that I work with, and just people that I've talked to in my life have do have a hard time asking for help. And that's a time when you really need to be able to do that. Do you have any ideas for people who struggle asking for help?Jody LaVoie 10:54You know, I think it's about giving yourself permission. So many of us are perfectionist out there. And you know, prior to losing our spouses, we can keep it all together, and then it all falls apart. And then one can feel embarrassed, shame. Why can't I do all of this? No, no, no, no, no, I'm giving you permission to not be perfect. And to ask for help you need it. And people want to genuinely help you and do things for you.Hannah Choi 11:29Yeah, I love that. And but without asking, they might be afraid. They might not know how to help. So if you're able to ask, then you're gonna, then they're gonna be so happy to help.Jody LaVoie 11:39It's so true. And I coach people that are trying to support grieving people. Just that, be specific, in your ask, because it's a people come to Grievers and say, How can I help and, you know, I, the needs are vast. But to be very specific of, I'd like to bring you dinner this week is Wednesday, or Thursday better. But just be specific, it's helpful.Hannah Choi 12:06 And I love that. That's great. What else you got?Jody LaVoie 12:11You know, it's very easy to forget about yourself, especially as women, we take care of everyone else first. And when we're grieving, our kids are grieving. The other people, relatives, family members are grieving. It's okay to take care of yourself. And you need to because you can't support other people, if you're not putting your oxygen mask on first. And so step one with that is just move your body, whatever that looks like for you. If you can get outside and take a walk, great. Even if you live someplace cold bundle up, just seeing sunlight and breathing in fresh air. So important starts about five minutes, just walk around the block.Hannah Choi 13:03I love that. That's great.Jody LaVoie 13:07Yeah, and one more thing that I do, Hannah. And I know Dr. Shulman talked about this a lot about journaling. And the importance of journaling, which I do what I've also tied into my journaling, gratitude. And so every day, when I get up, my very first thing after I brush my teeth is I, I journal for the day. And I probably spend 5 - 10 minutes, really just writing my thoughts. But at the end of that day's entry, I do two things. One, I write something that I'm really proud of that I did the day before, because celebrating your wins, even the small wins, yeah, are so important. It's so easy. And our brains automatically go to the negative. And there's data that that shows this, Hannah, we have about 60,000 thoughts a day. 80% of them are negative eight, zero. That's crazy. So celebrating a win is important. And then the other thing I put on my journal are three things that I'm grateful for, and getting yourself back to gratitude. Especially when you're you're sad, and you're grieving and you're, you have all of this emotion, but to focus on what is good. And it really helps your brain move to a different space.Hannah Choi 14:35I do the same thing, although I don't do what I'm proud of. And I love that I think we're gonna add that into my journaling. But I do gratitude and I actually just finished up I do it in a line a day journal, one of those like small just has a small entry for every day. And I just finished my fifth year of doing it. Thanks. And I was looking back over I was just reading out loud, my sister and brother in law were over recently and I was reading through it just to see what, you know, what I've been thankful for over the years. And during the pandemic, I noticed that I was many, many days, I was just thankful for sunshine. And, and, and I just looking back on that, I think wow, like, even in those dark days of so challenging for everybody, I was still forced myself to find something that I was thankful for. And some days it was just sunshine. But it's, it's it is possible to find something to be grateful for every day. So true.Jody LaVoie 15:35And I live in gloomy Chicago, and it's winter and the sun is out today. And yeah, just like brought a smile to my face. And that is certainly picked up my spirits. Hannah Choi 15:48Yeah, good. Great. Do you have anything else you'd like to add before we finish?Jody LaVoie 15:52You know, those are going to be my top five. I don't want to give people too many to, you know, chunk off. So if you can tackle those five listeners out there, you will be well on your way to success. Hannah Choi 16:05Yeah, that's great. And where can people find you if they're interested in learning more?Jody LaVoie 16:10Yeah, so I am very active on LinkedIn, under my business Widows in the Workplace. I have an Instagram Widows in the Workplace. And I certainly have a website widows in the workplace.com. Hannah Choi 16:26That's great. I love it. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jodi, it's been really interesting talking with you and I really appreciate everything you shared.Jody LaVoie 16:35Thanks, Hannah. I've I've enjoyed our time together as well.Transcript of Hannah's conversation with Dr. Lisa ShulmanHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19Today I'm taking a look at how grief and emotional trauma impact our executive functioning. I really struggled to write the intro for this episode, I kept finding myself putting it off. And if you've listened to my procrastination episode, you'll know that the same thing happened with that one. So I did some reflection to figure out why. And I realized it's because of the same reason. I'm afraid I won't get it right. Grief and emotional trauma are really hard to talk about. And even though they're part of being human, we have all experienced or will experience some form of it in our lives. And everyone experiences it differently. Everyone's reaction to grief is different. Everyone's reaction to other people's grief is different. It's a big part of these beautiful and difficult lives we're living, and yet it is still so hard to talk about. I thought that maybe by learning more about it, we can find it a little easier to talk about, and maybe finding answers to why we react the ways we do when we experience loss can help us discover strategies that work to orient ourselves to this new normal. Things won't be the same after loss. So how can we navigate that? Hannah Choi 01:37I reached out to Dr. Lisa Schulman who is a neurologist and a Professor of Neurology at University of Maryland in Baltimore. Lisa is also a published author and wrote a book called before and after loss, a neurologist perspective on loss, grief and our brain. Her focus on the brain's reaction to grief, and as you'll hear her explain, emotional trauma was exactly what I needed to answer the many questions I had. Lisa's personal experience with grief and her professional experience led her to research the topic, her extensive knowledge of the brain helped me understand it all so much more. And her calming presence somehow made it easier to talk about. I hope you enjoy and learn from this conversation as much as I did, and that this episode helps you in your life before or after you experience loss. When you're done listening, please check out the show notes for more resources, including a link to Dr. Shulman's book, which I highly recommend reading and a conversation I had with Jody LaVoie, a grief coach who supports widows who are returning to work after loss. Okay, let's dive in and learn about grief, emotional trauma and the brain. Hannah Choi 02:56Hi, Lisa, thank you for joining me, could you introduce yourself to our listeners for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:02Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here, Hannah, thank you for inviting me. I'm a neurologist and author. I'm a Professor of Neurology at the University of Maryland School of Medicine. And I got involved in the area of emotional trauma, traumatic loss and grief through my own personal experiences. And it really has ended up being something very important to me, close to my heart. And I really looking forward to discussing it with you today.Hannah Choi 03:42Are you comfortable sharing your personal experience and telling your story about how you got to where you are today?Dr. Lisa Shulman 03:50Yeah, certainly. You know, I, I mean, I really, I think the place to start is that, you know, I I'm a sub specialist in neurology, I'm what's known as a movement disorder specialist. And most of the patients that I see have Parkinson's disease or Parkinson's related disorders, various forms of what we call neuro degenerative disorders. And I've been doing this for about 30 years now. And so, you know, I have followed many, many, many people through serious illness, you know, to points where they are quite disabled and of life. And, you know, and for those reasons, you know, I thought to myself when I confronted serious illness in my life when my husband was diagnosed with cancer, I thought that I was more prepared than the average person as somebody who counseled others going through hard times. I should vivid, my husband Bill is a neurologist too, and we work closely together. And I think that in over the experience of his illness and his decline and ultimately, his death, you know, I was taken aback or unprepared for the fact that I, you know, like so many things in life that you don't know really know what it is until you're in somebody's shoes. And, and the fact of the matter was that when he was seemingly suddenly gone, I was ill prepared, and was had a really tough time of it. As for a while I floundered, you know, because I hadn't expected to feel the way I felt all of the new precautions. And at some point, many months, many months later, well, actually, I started spontaneously to write a journal and just to get my feelings on a paper piece of paper, although I'd never done anything like that before. And then many months later, I made the connection, which wasn't as obvious as it seems to me now, between my own experience, and a personal experience I was having of loss, and my professional world, of understanding how the brain works, and the brain responds. Which really, you know, it's like one of these things where you think afterwards, you know, I, you know, because I, in my, I'm a researcher, I not only see patients, but I do research, and I write, manuscripts, and a lot of the papers I've published are about the behavioral responses, adjustment, quality of life, managing difficulty in one's life. And yeah, it took me months to, you know, Link, obvious similarities between what I was going through in my professional life. And that ultimately led me to quite a bit of research into brain function, about how the brain responds to emotional trauma and loss. And ultimately, I began to find that is a path forward for me. And then I wrote the book based on that information.Hannah Choi 07:46Yeah, I really, I really, really, really enjoyed your book, I, I be what you said just a little bit ago about you feeling like you were prepared. My personal interest in learning about grief and, and emotional trauma, and the impact on the brain comes from experience that I had in my family, and with some friends, I had a period of five years in a row, where we had some pretty traumatic and unexpected losses. And, and I now looking back on it, I feel like when that happens, again, because it is a part of life, I want to be more prepared. And that is my that's, that's kind of like the motivator for me. And but it's interesting what you said, like you don't, when it's yourself, and it's you feeling it, it's, I imagine it is harder to make that connection and realize, like, oh, wait a second.Dr. Lisa Shulman 08:50Like one of the one of the things that I often start off with when I'm giving a talk on this topic, is how Psychiatry and Neurology are the same thing. And even though as a neurologist, I will understand the brain function that governs our behavior, our mental health, our personality. But when even even though I understand that, I can't wrap my arms around it to be honest, it's like something I have to sort of intellectualize because you the texture of our lives, our experiences are so rich, and so compelling, that to think that this is related to neurotransmitters and neurons, nerve cells, you know, it boggles the mind. Yeah, even for a neurologist who studies it.Hannah Choi 09:55Yeah, and I am, I am far from that and but the little that I do know about the brain, it both helps to understand, okay, this is my brain, but then the same time, like what? It doesn't feel like it's just my brain? Yeah. So when we first when we first communicated, we and you mentioned it a little bit, just just a bit ago, I had asked to talk with you about grief and the connection between the brain and executive function skills. And you suggested that we also include emotional trauma. And I was just wondering if you could explain that in diseases? Are they different from each other? Are they the same? Does the brain react differently?Dr. Lisa Shulman 10:45Yeah, you know, I'm gonna challenge you even in the way you asked that question us, from the conventional physician, that grief has this special position and emotional trauma is different, and that I'm trying to push them together. But I would push back and say that, that is a notion about grief, having a unique position in the spectrum of emotional trauma, but that the more you understand about the way the brain behaves, what parts of the brain respond to serious traumatic loss of all types. The more you see that grief is just in the spectrum of emotional trauma, right. And that, you know, we have one of the most intriguing parts and these things will be eternally intriguing to me, is that how different we all are, in terms of the impact of different events in our lives, and you cannot pinpoint or a map, you can't predict what for one person will be emotionally traumatic, and what will not. We certainly all know people who have had significant, say, losses of loved ones in their life, but they don't go through a terrible period, not everybody does. And by the same token, we see people who suffer other losses in their life, it may be a loss of a job, it could be a breakup with some relationship, it could be the loss of a pet, it could be a, you know, a physical assault, you could go on and on. Certainly COVID, the pandemic has been a source of trauma, emotional trauma and loss in our lives. So you can't pinpoint it. And so I would just say that for every individual, imagine a spectrum or range where you have a unique range of for you what is most would be the greatest and most of your causes of emotional trauma. And that is, I think, the, for me, it's the most appropriate and accurate way to think about it. You know, I think the most important thing is to think of this is a very important point I'd like to leave with your listeners, which is that the brain is agnostic to the type of trauma, the isn't there isn't any unique area of the brain to respond to one of those forms of emotional trauma that I mentioned or another. You know, it might be that you're planning on going to graduate school, and you really, like totally crash when you're taking a test, you need it to ace and that for you is you walk out in a state of utter shock, how it's going to affect your life that you know for you is triggering the same responses as the person in fact, who might find themselves sadly, losing a loved one, it's just a matter of severity for each individual. So it's not the cause it's not the triggering event or the type of event. It's the individual personal meaning of the event that ends up triggering the same cascade of responses.Hannah Choi 14:39And, and that the actual response within the brain. It's like not necess not necessarily there, like how it looks, how it looks externally but what's going on inside of their brain. Is that right? Dr. Lisa Shulman 14:52Right. Right. Exactly. So you know all the consequences, the symptoms, the consequences, this equality It all would be the same based on the severity of the loss.Hannah Choi 15:05Yeah, you know, I was I lost my dog about four years ago. And, and that hit me harder way harder than I ever thought it would. And I found myself sometimes thinking, Oh, this is horrible, just like judging myself, like, you shouldn't, you know, she was just a dog. You know, it's but, but what you're seeing now is making me feel a lot better. I mean, and I caught myself when I said that I, you know, I said, No, she wasn't the, because if experience for me if that loss was so great, so it must have been more than she was just a dog. So it's good to hear that, that, that,Dr. Lisa Shulman 15:47You know, I would I thought a lot and done, you know, reading about why certain things are so personally, individually emotionally traumatic, and that one cannot predict that necessarily, you know, I, I believe that there is it relates to the topic of identity and the story that we have constructed for ourselves about our lives about where we fit in the world. What makes sense to us, the infrastructure of how we get up every day interact with people do our jobs are potentially a partner or parent, all the roles we take, we have a conception, the conceptual framework, and that is related to our identity. And when some piece of that is lost, or injured or at risk, that is jumping to the idea of brain function here perceived by the brain, as an actual assault on or threat to our survival. And this is another very key concept here. And it's a matter of it may sound jarring, and I think the first time I saw that, in the literature, I I thought, wow, you know, could that possibly be? But you have to think of this from an evolutionary standpoint. And from an evolutionary standpoint, I mean, this is how our brain ended up being wired, based on evolution. And our and our brains are all incredibly similar to each other, actually, we think of ourselves as individuals, but who we have the same hardwiring. So the fact is that over evolution, we all know that we were being changed by what would allow enable us to survive. And those who were poorly prepared and unable to move to vulnerable would not have survived with evolutionarily. So we the most hardwired, the most high priority, from the perspective of your brain, not your mind your brand, yes, is keeping us alive, keeping us functional, right. And that is what ends up ruling the day in terms of this of the brain to be triggered by some loss. If it's perceived as something that could be a threat to our function to our survival, then, you know, potentially even all hell could break loose as the brain kicks in with all sorts of reflexes to help us go through bad times.Hannah Choi 19:17Yeah, that's so interesting. So, I was just thinking, Oh, maybe I come from a long line of the first people who domesticated dogs. That's why I felt it so strongly. So how, how, how does the brain react to emotional trauma. What's going on in there? And, and then I don't know if you can bring anything in about executive function since that's my particular interest. But I mean, executive functioning affects all areas of our lives. So it's kind of in just naturally part of that I'm, I'm sure.19:59Yeah, well, I can certainly bring that in. So I think that when we think about how the brain reacts to emotional trauma, it's helpful to organize it from the standpoint of acute responses and chronic responses. And how acute our responses are the immediate short term responses to things in our lives in our environment to triggers. And the there are chronic effects of these acute accumulation of acute responses over and over. You know, from the standpoint of the acute responses, it's easy, because everybody understands, I think, the basic concept of fight or flight. And, you know, if we are in the crosshairs of a bear, a gun, a car, you know, the same response again, you know, there isn't a different response for a bear or the car, it is the same response, which is a survival response of fight or flight. And it is a massive brain and systemic response. That immediately jolts our mind to be vigilant and alert, as alert as we possibly can be blocks out anything extraneous, gets our heart, our lungs, our muscles, prepared to run, to fight to breathe hard, and so forth, we are totally focused on you know, somehow surviving. So that is the acute response. And the fact is that after, we want to talk about grief itself, after the loss of a loved one, our world is filled with daily triggers, that each time we are exposed to these things, sometimes it's somewhat anticipated, but sometimes it is absolutely not. We find ourselves going through that over and over and over. Now, the chronic effects of it are very interesting because it's related to something called neuroplasticity, which is not as complicated as it may sound. Because neuroplasticity is simply that the brain is continually rewiring itself, based on our experiences. You know, right at this moment, we've met each other, we're chatting together, we're going to remember this, and our brain is establishing new, great connections for us to go back to in the future. And that's neuroplasticity. So, but the neuroplastic changes that occur, based on what I just talked about the continual or petitive triggering of the alarm of trouble for the fight or flight mechanism results in the part of the brain that colloquially is called the fear center, but from a neurologic standpoint is called the amygdala, which is part of the limbic system. So the fear center is constantly being strengthened while the cortical functions which are like all of our thinking, our memory, our executive functions, our judgment, all that is being weakened. And it's very important because actually, there are scientific many, many studies, this is not speculation, it shows that the brain pathways that connect the fear center to the our intellect, are being weakened. Because the fear center is being strengthened, the effects of the judgment are being weakened, we can also see that the volume of the different parts of the brain are being altered, in that the fear center is being gets larger, literally. While the the parts of the brain we need to calm ourselves that down and why some compose ourselves are being getting smaller. And this also affects on the brain activity between the two, which is very unhealthy. Everything we do in life is some interaction between the emotional side of the brain which is very primitive, right, you know, and the cerebral cortex, which is our advanced friend, so you know, like, I don't know about you, but I'm not too crazy about roaches or spiders. You know, I like I can if I see a bad spider or roach, I could get triggered. I don't want you eat us Oh, but you know, but then like, you know, your seat of wisdom, like kicks in and goes, you know, I'm living alone now. And I don't have anybody to go. And then I just say, you know, I calm down if you're just gonna have to deal with this, because not gonna get into bed with a spider in my room, you know? So, you know, you can see that interplay between the fear center and the intellect. Yeah, it has to be a healthy balance, right. And unfortunately, based on the set of circumstances, I've described, it imbalance occurs, and you end up being, you know, like, this raw, primitive brain that's autonomously setting off the alarm. And then you know, and then what do we see amongst the people who are going through emotional trauma and or having difficulties? You know, we hear them describe feelings of anxiety, difficulty with their sleep. Flashbacks. And from your perspective, the issues of executive function are being weakened, because they're the the fear center, the primitive responses of fear are predominating.Hannah Choi 26:35Yeah, and I was I was, I remembered, in part of your book, you said that one of the strongest predictors for I'm not sure how to describe it, but for feeling, for lack of better words, feeling like, Okay, after emotional trauma is the idea of self-efficacy. And, and I imagine that feeling that cognitive self efficacy comes a lot from being able to access your executive function, and being able to use that that part of your brain.27:15Yeah, I think I'm really glad you brought that up. Because a lot of my love of my research and work has focused on self-efficacy for managing chronic illness. And, you know, in my own crazy journey, figuring out things at some point, it was another kind of like epiphany, where I went, Oh, wow, that's another? Why didn't I ever think about that, you know, this, that grief, or emotional trauma can be seen as a chronic condition? Yeah, a chronic condition, just like the chronic medical conditions I had, you know, been studying for a long time. And so from that standpoint, you're right, what we're seeking is to develop self efficacy to manage this condition, emotional trauma, traumatic loss or grief. And self-efficacy, that phrase may not be common, commonly known to some people, it simply means that you have a level of confidence, or belief in yourself that you can manage your situation. And importantly, I think of it as that you are developing a sense of control over your life. We all you know, we all seek in our daily life, a sense of control, when you don't when you're not feeling a sense of control. It's very distressing. Yeah, very.Hannah Choi 28:48So, so many of the clients and pretty much all of the clients I've ever worked with, and all of my colleagues to it comes up that that after after figuring out what strategies and tools work best for them to support the areas of executive function that challenge them, once they figure that out, and they're able to have some control over that area. They all say they feel more confident. And and that is that self efficacy right there.Dr. Lisa Shulman 29:15Right, you know, the, the kind of the pathway is that one needs to develop basic font of knowledge about your situation, and then develop skills of self management, which it sounds like you're counseling people about, and then by practicing those new skills, that every time you do it, that you start to have increasing confidence and increasing sense of control. So you sort of build on it until you reverse the cycle of feeling helpless.Hannah Choi 29:58So if you have an end unbalance in the fear center like the limbic system is kind of taking over and inhibiting the part of the brain that we're using for executive functions. What are some things that people can do to write that balance? And, and I'm sure, like right after this, that whatever traumatic incident happens, it's really difficult to get out of that. What are some things that people can can try?30:24You know, I think that that was one of the most encouraging parts of what I learned over time, because I realized that it certainly is calming and reassuring to understand the way in which the brain is responding and how it explains your experience that in and of itself is comforting to know that, you know, you're not as many people say, going crazy, that you're not having this, you know, breakdown, so to speak, but that this is a common, we're all in it together. We're all going through it together. And I think that's very reassuring. But the epiphany was when I realized that it leads to obvious interventions, I thought this is this is exciting. You know, it actually I want to start go back for a moment to what I referred to before about neuroplasticity. So what I was describing before, is a spiraling down into bad neuroplasticity, the brain has been rewired in this unhealthy Well, way. And the important part of understanding neuroplastic changes is that we can thoughtfully and deliberately rewire and create connections, brain connections, neuro connections, but those that are healthier to move the needle in reverse good neuroplasticity, you know, neurologists have a cool phrase that we use, that when things fire together, they wire together. I've heard that, yeah, great. And that is actually a great description of neuroplasticity. That, you know, it's nothing more complicated than practice makes perfect. You know, if you, if you sit down to learn a musical instrument, you can can't do a thing if you get on a bicycle for the first time. Forget it, you know, but, you know, you keep on doing it. And you know, Eureka, suddenly you're have a new skill, and oftentimes you never lose it. So what is that, it's things that fire together, wire together. And so we can use that understanding and knowledge to think about how what steps we can take to reverse the process, which is causing everything I said before the fear center to be this crazy alarm in our head. That is domineering our life over time for some of us. So what what can we do? Well, you know, actually, in my book, I just want to mention that, you know, I actually wrote my book with people, for people who are going through very difficult times, and I will never forget how disorganized my thoughts were, during that period of time. So I wrote in the book, what I called three steps, which were to organize a strategy because I felt that I needed it. I personally needed things, you know, spoon fed and so forth at the time. And so I thought, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed by what I'm saying here, and that they have to figure it out. So the three steps that I described in the book was the first one was, and I'll describe the three in a moment. The first one I called subconscious, conscious integration. And the second one is immersion and distraction. The third one is gradually opening the mind to new possibilities. So I'll briefly describe each. Subconscious conscious integration is one way to describe that what I described before that there has been a disconnect between the emotional parts of the brain and the cognitive parts of the brain. And from that standpoint, a lot of the disturbing emotions and memories from a time of trauma It ended up being suppressed in our subconscious. They're not accessible to us. Part of the reason they're not, the main reason they're not accessible to us is because it sets an alarm off every time we even go in that direction. Right? So but it's a big part, it is key to healing, to reconnect with that, because when you have a lot of disturbing stuff in your subconscious, this results in flashbacks, nightmares, or panic attacks. Well, that. So that's what that first step is, we'll talk come back and talk about how to accomplish it in a moment to is immersion and distraction. And what that refers to is that, you know, one can't do go through the angst of what some people might call grief work constantly, you have to be very aware that you need to give your mind and yourself and your brain space to chill out and have some enjoyable times. So that's what immersion and distraction means. Sometimes you're going to have to do the hard work of immersing immersing immersing immersing yourself in these difficult memories, which for me was when I was doing the journaling. But that I would plan in my day, also other times where I was going to distract myself from it. And the third ends up being after you've gone through those two steps I just mentioned, the third step is that of time will come when there's enough healing, well, you can begin to open yourself up to new possibilities, because, you know, life will not return to what it was before, after many serious losses. And so, you know, we do have to find a way to make a pivot and start to think of well, how are we going to build this new life, which, you know, take some time.Hannah Choi 37:15So, if someone has a set a sudden traumatic loss, and they haven't read your book, and they have and they, and they, you know, don't you know, know, these steps, or they don't know even where to start, where is a good place to start for people.37:32You know, in the book, I do have a chapter or more where I talk about the nuts and bolts of what you can do. And I think you know, it's really important to know that there isn't one shoe that fits everybody here, we are all very different. And we are looking for some vehicle that allows us to relax enough to get back in touch with disturbing thoughts and emotions, disturbing emotions and memories. Now, you know, for me, it was journaling and journaling. Writing is uniquely well suited to this. But there is mentioned in a moment, many other options. The reason why journaling and writing is uniquely suited is because you are, it's very personal. You can write in a more raw way, when you're writing, knowing nobody else will see this. Because in the end, I wrote a book and put it all in there. That wasn't what I was thinking when I was writing. So they never still doesn't make me comfortable. But you know, when you are writing that you're writing only for yourself and think about it. You can go to a counselor or therapist, you can speak to a dear friend, you can speak to an important clergyman in your church or synagogue or mosque you can you can do all those things. But in every one of those cases, you are sharing something deeply personal with others. And you know what? We all censor ourselves. Yeah, it's only natural and we not you know, who would lay it all out there for somebody to hear we are all censor ourselves. So when you write, you can write just for yourself. You can. It's very difficult to be honest with yourself that you can try your best to be honest with yourself that you can get it on paper, as imperfect as it is. And again, another unique part of writing is that you couldn't go back a week later a day You later a year later and read what you wrote, and annotated and continue to improve it, you know, I find that most people find you go back and read your own words and go, you know, I was, that's only part of the story. And because it teases out more Yeah. And then you can annotate now more. So that's why I think writing is really super. But there are many, many others, you know, there are so many creative outlook outlets. And I think we can think about those creative outlets that people have, whether it's music, or art, dance, all of these outlets are ways that people are expressing themselves and could find it. And it's a way it's kind of a portal into your deepest thoughts. So, all of that, and of course, faith based practices, meditation and other contemplative practices. It goes on and on. Another important source that we shouldn't overlook is getting out in the natural environment. You know, we tend to understate that, but we can all I think, relate to time how often you find yourself if you take a simple walk, or you know, you're you're seeing some beautiful mountains, you're sitting by a lake, you're at the beach, and how it how transforming it is to your thoughts. Yeah. And when you're going through a terrible time, after emotional trauma, that's a ripe moment for you to not only feel like you can exhale, but that you can relax enough to connect with thoughts that otherwise would be inaccessible. The hardest part really is looking in the mirror and understanding ourselves enough to know how to proceed. You know, I'd be the first one to tell you that when I was going through a terrible time, I was not resourceful. Again, getting back to executive function. Now. I was not resourceful. You know, it was like, years later, when I wrote the book, and people are then contacting me from different organizations and podcasts and web, web websites, and so forth. And I went, Oh, my God, there's like an endless array of resources. And I felt totally isolated. And you know, here I am a researcher, I have no difficulty looking things up. But at the time, it was not accessible to me. And I know that's true of others, because everyone has told me.Hannah Choi 42:59Yeah, yeah. I heard I heard, I listened to a podcast that you were on. With a woman who has a podcast about grief, and my working memory is my biggest executive function challenge. So I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, on that you were talking about how how the brain can actually make it so that you don't see objects that are maybe related to the to the person that you lost, or the trauma that you went through. And I thought that was so fascinating, and how that real fat right there for me really shows you that it is your brain. Your your brain. Oh, Dear Life, maybe? Sorry, just came to me, then. Yeah.Dr. Lisa Shulman 43:50Yeah, yeah, I think we should review some of the specific cognitive responses, or effects on cognition. And one of them is what you're talking about, you know, the, you can picture the we're talking before about how the brain is perceiving. This is a threat to our survival. So there are a vast number of protective reflexes and responses that are being activated. And we talked I talked already about many of the physical ones. But from a psychological or emotional standpoint, the brain is in an emotional, protective crouch all the time, which is going to serve to shield us from disturbing triggers disturbing things in our environment. And we have a whole host of psychological defense mechanisms that we all learn long ago, like dissociation, repression, denial and so forth, that are kicked into high gear. It's a subconscious reef. So we're not, we're not deciding we're going to behave that way we don't know that those reflexes are in, I've been kicked off. And this can, as you say, result in literal holes in your perspective or your your vision. And the one that you described to occurred in my life, which was that something as, obviously concrete, as my husband's cell phone, his iPhone, was sitting on our desk. And I mean, not just months, it could have been years, a long time went by, where I just didn't even know, I never saw it. Or I didn't. There was a proper word, I didn't allow myself to see it. You know, but someone actually, in the house, saw it and pointed it out. I had, like, I was shocking to me, it was shocking. I thought, My gosh, it's specific all along. And I chose to ignore it, such that it was a literal hole in my visual field. Yeah. That was just your how, how incredibly strong and powerful these things are, you know, somebody who originally described a dissociation dissociate, described dissociation is fundamental to emotional trauma. And so dissociation is a really important part of this. And my book goes into this in some depth. Resulting in that when you are confronting disturbing stressors in your environment, that your mind has this incredible protective response of just kind of turning off, or shielding you from recognizing what you saw just getting, you know, it might put you in a place for a few seconds or moments where you are, you're basically detached from your environment. Or it might be more mild than that. There can be these interruptions of awareness, it fragments, your memory, because you're having periods of the day where this is occurring, it's causing flashbacks, you can become increasingly emotionally numb, because you're not being open to everything that's really in your environment all the time. So it's a very big part of why many of us feel like something has changed fundamentally, after loss.Hannah Choi 47:53Yeah. It's, and and it's interesting that how you said it, it really just comes back to survival and protecting ourselves.48:05Right! I mean, it's a, it's actually we have to think about it as a very effective strategy that the brain is employing. In other words, if, when, when we have, if we have, you know, horribly, a terrible tragedy or catastrophe occur, we remain able to function and survive. Yeah, it would be possible that we were wired in such a way that we were not able to survive, that, you know, we that you could not function, you could not make a meal, you could not dress yourself, you could not you'd be in such a way, but he said no, the truth is, and I really want to get to this, which is that we're talking about executive function and cognition after trauma. And number one, you can remain extremely high functioning in the face of cognitive change, we are not talking about somebody developing the dementia and being unable to perform their daily activities. Speaking for myself, even in the worst of this, I was seeing patients, writing papers, writing grants, doing everything Yeah. So it just shows you how these things can be quite segregated. Another important point is that the cognitive changes are not across all domains and not across all parts of executive function that you know, as well as I that executive function has many different components. You know, what I'd like to really point to that I think is not discussed enough. And I'm really interested in your thoughts on this, Hannah. You I believe that something that's overlooked a lot is cognitive flexibility.Hannah Choi 50:08I am right there with you.Dr. Lisa Shulman 50:12So, you know, I think that during, after trauma, trauma after emotional trauma, cognitive flexibility takes a big hit for a long time, I imagine. And I just wonder, you know, how do you come across that in your own work?Hannah Choi 50:29I mean, I, I think I really believe that cognitive flexibility is that and metacognition, just understanding how we think and why we think and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do, I think those two together are, for me, what I see in my clients and in myself and in others are the most of the two most important, because without that cognitive flexibility, especially I imagine with when you when your life experiences such a great shift, and such a great change. And like you said before, life is not going to go back to how it was before, that cognitive flexibility is probably going to be the answer to finding new ways of doing your life now. And finding happiness and success. I mean, I can't think of another executive function that is going to be more helpful than that. 51:31And really, at the heart of, you know, being able to be successful, because, you know, it runs from the sublime to the ridiculous, you know, if somebody does, for example, reach out for or tries, I was talking before about all the kinds of methods that one strategies one could try, if someone does begin on say, Okay, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to find a counselor, I'm going to go to a support group. And, and that doesn't have the proper chemistry, or it just doesn't feel like it's being helpful to you for some reason, you know, if you don't have cognitive flexibility and resourcefulness, you know, that it's pretty much a dead end for somebody, rather than saying, Oh, well, you know, there's 10 other ways to do this. The so I mean, that's the sublime, the ridiculous part of it can be that you can literally find yourself doing things in incredibly robotic ways. When you are in a going through a period of terrible emotional trauma, where things are being done the way they were always done very automatically, and you get kind of fixed in the spot. And then when hopefully, you do become more healed and have more insight and cognitive flexibility, you know, like, it's like, one day you think, we're gonna say, you know, I'm doing these three steps, and there's a way to do this one step, why don't I see that all? You know, and, you know, I mean, for those who have experienced the loss of a loved one, I mean, there are some of these things that are so common. The simple example I've spoken to many people, is, if you if it's somebody that you know, a partner, that you find yourself going to the supermarket and buying all the same foods, even though that person is no longer home, you are in thinking I want to buy this in honor of the memory of the lost loved one, you just automatically are buying in and you're stocking your pantry and the things that you don't ordinarily use takes actually a fair amount of time to you wake up to the fact that you're doing that. Another one I talked about on a BBC broadcast is that people oftentimes describe preparing foods that their loved ones preferred, not what they prefer, they prefer it right, right. Again, it's not something that you plan out, you're just automatically doing it. And it takes it sometimes you then in a robotic, you're doing it and you're doing it and you're doing it and you don't have the cognitive flexibility to go this is what's happening and maybe I don't need, you know, five boxes of that.Hannah Choi 54:33Yeah. And it just it really shows you that we are our habits. We are the that like you said, you know, like that, that our brains have been wired that way. So we think that way,54:45You know, one of the things I'll I'll pointed to other examples in the cognitive sphere or to other issues. One is the inattention And we talked about the dissociation and how we results in this loss of awareness and so forth. And, you know, people who have suffered serious emotional trauma are have been found to be quite vulnerable to accidents. And this is a very, it's a significant problem, you know, more falling, more car accidents, just accidents. And, you know, I read about that, but you know, I will just say, again, from pointing to my personal experience, you know, in the year following my husband's death, I fell and broke my ankle. And I was in three car accidents, fortunately, fender benders. And then since then none of that this is almost the 10th year anniversary of his death. I mean, it shows you that there is some cognitive change that you are not as alert to your environment.Hannah Choi 56:07Yeah, yeah, well, it makes sense. And I just did an episode on ADHD. And in my research, I found that people with ADHD, who struggle with attention are also more prone to accidents, car accidents and injuries.Dr. Lisa Shulman 56:23So that also also totally makes sense. Yeah. And like, the final point I don't want to overlook is the impact of our bio rhythms. And, you know, many of us know that we are either you know, morning larks or night owls. And that's just a very fixed part of our genetics. That's not something you can change. And so when you are, you know, you don't you have minimal or no reserve after emotional trauma. So therefore, from the standpoint of cognition, think about if you are, are you a morning Lark or a night owl?Hannah Choi 57:05Well, I am a night owl, I am fighting fighting that right now. I'm trying really hard to become a morning Lark. I'm a little better, but I'm trying to fake it till I make it but it's not happening.57:21So, you know, if you have are in a bad way, with minimal to no cognitive reserve, and you're you should just be aware, well, you know, if you are that morning for you, Hannah, is not going to be the optimum time for you to try to do a serious cognitive task. Right, right. Because you have to two things that are going on. And so why you why even fight it.Hannah Choi 57:53And that's so much of what what I do in my coaching is help helping people figure out when is the best time of day for you to do different things. And you know, when when are you going to be most successful, when is not a great time to try something new or even to try something challenging? Yeah, just becoming aware, learning that learning about ourselves and, and knowing that,58:16I mean, I think it has a lot to do with something important that my husband taught me, which is about being forgiving to yourself. And, you know, I think that all of us, and maybe women even more than men, you know, are, you know, filled with angst and second thoughts and remorse, recrimination, and you know, like, especially for people who are going through terrible times, after traumatic losses, it's very important to know, go gentle with yourself and think, you know, I'm doing my best. And I'm I going to keep on working on this. And sometimes, I'm going to have a longing to regress, sometimes I'm going to really handle something poorly, I'm going to make a poor decision. And that we should go well, I'm going to be forgiving to myself, because I'm going through a hard time and I'm going to learn from this and try again. I think that that's a very important part of it. And on the small side of it in terms of what you were just saying the day to day side of it. You know, you might sit down and think okay, I've set aside this time to do what I called before the subconscious conscious integration, the grief work, the inner work, and you might sit down and it might be very unsuccessful. You just simply can't find you can't find your rhythm like you had on another day? Well, I mean, it's good to acknowledge that it just go well, no, for some reason. For whatever reason, this is not the right time for me. Yeah, I'm gonna do something else. And tomorrow's another day.Hannah Choi 1:00:15yeah. We always talk about how you can't listen to those shoulds. You have to, you know, be gentle with yourself and, and do what's right in the moment. Is there anything else that you can think of? Did you want to go back to your three steps? Was there anything that you wanted to expand on there?Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:00:32You know, I think that, you know, one thing that I would say that can be quite confusing, is when we talk about this idea of subconscious conscious integration, the work to integrate, and reconnect the emotional response to the cognitive functions. And then we refer to that second step of immersion and distraction, I think one of the things that can be confusing, and is to me about exactly how to talk about it, is that the balance between the kinds of things that calm us down, and will be a source of distraction. And the kinds of things that will calm us down and enable us to do the hard work of Yeah, of reconnection of subconscious conscious integration. And that I think, can be a source of confusion. And we sort of all have to find our own balance there. And maybe identify times that are ripe, to even even if it's for a short moment, you know, say for example, in the ways we were talking before, that you might be out in a natural environment, and you feel a sense of relief, and you feel like you can think more clearly. And in that moment, a memory might drift back to you. That is maybe a sad, a sad memory. It's a sad memory. But you see, it just became accessible to you, because you had relaxed enough for that purpose. Yeah. And now, you know, one doesn't have to feel compelled to do some work around that, because you've already accomplished something, like doing that, or feeling feeling sad about it isn't necessarily enough to feel like that's a regression. It's instead, as you go through that, and you in the way we talked about self efficacy, developing confidence in yourself, that you go through, you have that moment, and you might reflect and feel sorrow. And then you go back to maybe what you were doing, and you have just had an experience where you succeeded in the face of you didn't have, you know, a break and emotional breakdown, you didn't weren't triggered, the fight or flight mechanism wasn't triggered to its nth degree, you instead had a moment of sorrow and you went through it, which is different than what would have happened before. That's, that's a success.Hannah Choi 1:03:43Yeah. And that that makes me think back to when you were talking about journaling and how, how when you when you like say, you wrote that down that you find that you this used to happen before and now this now this happens. You can look and see that that evidence that evidence of growth and progress and how that must be really empowering and and give you and bolster that self efficacy that is so helpful in getting through.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:04:14Yes, and you know, that you're able to acknowledge is that it's a healthy mind to be able to acknowledge that that was a beautiful important part of me. It's not here anymore, you're honoring it. I mean, you you'd give anything to go back and have that person back or undo that traumatic event. But this really refers to the important field of post traumatic growth and how you achieve that. There you with time, you know, we have well, another favorite phrase is Time heals all wounds. isn't enough for most people, not everybody, but for most people, time will result in a lot of healing after traumatic loss. But if one doesn't go through the steps that we're talking about here, to reverse those bad neuroplastic changes in the brain access suppressed memories and emotions, excuse me, access suppressed memories and emotions. If you don't go through those steps, you are blocked from ever growing as fully for your to potential as you could write, you will improve, but you will be blocked from the full potential that you have,Hannah Choi 1:05:50because of the way that your brain is responding.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:05:54Because you have never you continue to have suppressed memories and emotions that your brain has to continually protect you from. Yeah, right. No, another way we can refer to this, in terms of cognition, and it's important is that when when the when the brain is functioning in that protective mode, the fight or flight, the acute responses, the chronic effects, everything we talked about, it uses up a lot of brain power, a lot of real estate in the brain is being used up to, to shield me from seeing that iPhone, that's not just happening on its own, some portion of the brain is keeps on going, you know, alert to say no to that thing. You know, there's a part of the brain that keeps on doing that over and over. And how can that ever be compatible with full healing and optimum cognitive function? Yeah, it's not possible. No. And it's, it's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong process. It's not as if anybody is ever going to be at the end of that process. We keep on identifying things that are disturbing, and then you have to work through it again.Hannah Choi 1:07:38Which gives you that what gives you the ability to move out of what you said before that the feeling of hopelessness, and there's concrete things that you can do. Yeah. That's great. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your talking with me. And it's fascinating and difficult to talk about at the same time.Dr. Lisa Shulman 1:08:05No, it's like anything else. So like we just said, it was very difficult to talk about it in the beginning. And now I've talked about it a lot. No longer difficult, and I really enjoyed my time with you.Hannah Choi 1:08:18Thank you. And that is our show for today. Be sure to check out those show notes for links to learn more about today's topic. And thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found some peace and maybe some answers in my conversation with Dr. Lisa Shulman. Help us help others to learn more about executive function skills. Please share our podcasts with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated Executive Producer of "The Disruptors," the first comprehensive documentary about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and its effect on kids, adults, and their families. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Nancy to have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD and why she wanted to create a comprehensive film to help dispel the myths around ADHD and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits.When you view the film, you may notice a star-studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician Will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. The film also features Dr. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and New York Times best-selling author, who's helped lead the charge on ADHD awareness for decades. If you’re listening before January 26, 2023, you can watch The Disruptors for free! (Info in the show notes) Show Notes:Learn more about “The Disruptors”Watch “The Disruptors” for free! Use code TDB-BBS. Available from 1/19/23 - 1/26/23. If you're reading this after January 26th, 2023, click here to find out how to watch.Learn more about Nancy ArmstrongDownload our free ADHD success kitContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:20Through a series of fortunate events, I was connected with Nancy Armstrong, who is the Emmy-nominated executive producer of a documentary film called The Disruptors. This film is all about attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, and how it can affect kids, adults and their families. I got to sit down with Nancy and have a conversation about her experience raising her own children who have ADHD, and about why she wanted to do something to help people learn about it, dispel myths about it and show the world that ADHD is about so much more than deficits, even though the name might make you think otherwise. When you view the film, you'll see a star studded cast of actors and other talented individuals. Astronaut Scott Kelly, musician will.i.am, Paris Hilton, and more share the challenges and successes of living with ADHD. Ned Hallowell, a renowned ADHD expert and author shares both his expertise on ADHD and also his personal experience living with it. Even though these people are all famous, their stories are presented in a way that is just so relatable and real to the rest of us. Gosh, you guys, this documentary is really special. Even before I talked with Nancy, I could tell that it was made with the love and attention a topic like this deserves and just hadn't been given yet. Our Podcast Producer, Sean Potts, says he deeply wishes that he had had the opportunity to watch this when he was younger. That film is powerful message is that yes, having ADHD creates challenges and frustration for people. But ADHD is much more than those challenges and frustrations. Many of the very good things in our world are here because of people with ADHD, who had the creativity, the curiosity and the energy to create them. Watching the film. And hearing this message throughout, it reminded me so much of the clients that I've worked with, who have ADHD, and who have created systems to manage the challenges and work to discover the positive sides. So I am so proud and happy to share Nancy's work with you. And I hope you get a chance to watch after listening to our conversation today. And guess what? If you're listening before January 26, 2023, go to the show notes and click on the link to register for access to view The Disruptors for free. There's a code that you'll need to enter to watch. So make sure you get that you can find that listed in the show notes too. If you're listening after January 26. Keep listening to the episode to hear Nancy share where you can find the film or just look in the show notes for those links. Okay, here we go. Hannah Choi 03:19Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for joining me today. My thanks for having me. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners?Nancy Armstrong 03:26Sure. I'm Nancy Armstrong. I'm the executive producer of the disruptors.Hannah Choi 03:30I just want to tell all of our listeners that you should absolutely watch this documentary, it was just excellent. It made me laugh. It made me smile. It brought tears to my eyes. And it just made me feel so much hope for people with ADHD and their parents. So thank you for for making it.Nancy Armstrong 03:50Thank you for saying that. That means the world to me.Hannah Choi 03:52Oh, good. So tell me the story of how did you end up being the executive producer of an ADHD documentary? Nancy Armstrong 04:00Well, I have three children with ADHD. And my son was definitely my firstborn. And the most challenging. We sort of figured out very early on something unusual was going on with him. We couldn't figure out what it was. He seemed normal, but also incredibly active to the point of us getting kicked out of Mommy and Me class at when he was a toddler. So there were a bunch of signs in the beginning, and we couldn't quite figure out what it was. And then finally, at age eight, he was diagnosed after going through a round of tests, he was diagnosed with ADHD. And that was great that we understood it finally, but that was kind of the beginning of our journey, learning how to manage it, learning how to treat it. Also in that same office, my husband raised his hand and said I have all those symptoms. And the doctor said well, it's genetic. So that was the beginning of our journey and and it was just incredibly difficult going through the K through 12 system and also I had this idea that well, my husband has it. And he was very successful. He had all of the challenges of ADHD. But he also had some pretty impressive, impressive strengths that I didn't even tie to ADHD until I met Ned Hallowell, and talked to him about my son. And he also met my husband, Tim. And he said, Well, you know, all those strings are ADHD too. And we just kind of went, what that's there, everything is tied together. So that was the beginning. And I thought, Man, there should be a documentary on this. And so for 10 years, I waited for someone to make this documentary, and they never made it. And so finally, in 2018, I quit my job and decided to make the film because I knew it could help so many people, not only in this country, but around the world. And that we finally had to reframe ADHD from this deficit disorder model, to something that is two sides of a coin, on the one hand challenges but on the other hand, incredible strengths. And if you can maximize those, it can be a huge asset.Hannah Choi 06:00I really loved how, how Ned in in the documentary talked about how, like, let's look at the challenges and then flip them over and see what the what the positive of all of those challenges are. And, and I really loved how he worded that I love him. He's so great. Yeah.Nancy Armstrong 06:19Symptoms, you know, it's like every, for every symptom, that is an impediment. Distractibility, impulsivity and hyperactivity, you know, with Ned's analysis is you flip each one of those on its head, and you get a positive. And if you can learn to accelerate those positives, then the negatives will be less prominent, you'll you'll be motivated to be on time to get organized and to do all those things, because you'll want to accelerate your gifts.Hannah Choi 06:48Yes, yes, absolutely. And I see that a lot in the clients that I work with as, as an executive function coach, not not all of my clients have ADHD, but the ones that that do, I do notice that when they start to figure that out, they are much more motivated to start using tools and strategies, because they're excited about all these other things that I that I can take advantage of and make happen, it becomes maybe easier to do that. And then it's more, it's less challenging and more rewarding.Nancy Armstrong 07:18Yeah, and the more the world understands it that way, rather than looking at a child with ADHD and saying, Oh, you're disorganized, your homeworks not turned in, you're late, you know, all the all of these challenges to be to be addressed in a different way of, Oh, you're very curious, you're very creative, you have a lot of ideas, you have boundless energy, and to sort of approach it that way, and will work on your challenges is much more positive way to go through your formative years, and I think can make a huge difference in outcomes.Hannah Choi 07:49Absolutely. And with that confidence, it bringing that confidence piece in if you can not look at it, like from a deficit viewpoint, then that confident you're able to build that confidence back and, and or maybe not build it back, but just build it. And, and then, and then they can go so much farther with that. Yeah, I really like how, how it was addressed in the documentary that unfortunately, it ADHD is named, it brings up the deficit within the name, which is a shame, it's too bad to can't be named something else with the positive in there instead.Nancy Armstrong 08:26And we haven't figured that out yet. Yeah, I really tried. Why the will, I am said, Ada. I have my friend Kenny Dichter, who's in the film calls it a 10 Attention Deficit advantage, but really, it's not an it's a deficit of attention. It's really an abundance of attention going in too many directions. So the name is, you know, not only trivializes the diagnosis, but it's also kind of incorrect.Hannah Choi 08:51Yeah, I feel like it kind of has, its what typical society, the systems within the society needs, it needs you to in order to function smoothly and properly, it needs you to be able to focus with the appropriate amount on one thing at a time. And so it's it's harder to fit into that system that's, that's built. My family and I were talking about it about it yesterday, and we were saying, and one of my clients said this, too, he you know, he said people with ADHD, and I think it came up with the the son of the boy who likes to go fishing. I can't remember his injuries, maybe a Hogan. Yeah. You know, he, like he they were saying like if he didn't he wasn't living in today's world, then it wouldn't have been a problem. It would have been like a really great benefit. Because and that's what my clients said. He's like, if you're out in the, you know, in the bush, you want someone with ADHD because they're going to notice everything, and they're going to be able to pay attention.Nancy Armstrong 09:54Well, that's why people with ADHD are more suited to certain kinds of careers, you know? With high stimulation, so firefighters, ER doctors, you know, newsroom producers, they need environments with a ton of stimulation. It doesn't stress them out, like it might stress out a neurotypical person, it turns them on. So we tried to get as many people in the film in those kinds of careers, you know that we have many, many, well known people from different walks of life, that have used ADHD to their advantage while still managing the downsides. And they all talked about how tough it was going through school growing up. But then they've kind of turned that corner and realized what they were good at. And we're able to accelerate that into an incredible career.Hannah Choi 10:42Yeah, I love the variety of people that you had, how did you connect well, with all of them? Nancy Armstrong 10:46Some of them we knew. As soon as we got, you know, Hall of Fame astronaut, Scott Kelly on board, you know, everyone wants to be part of that group. So it was extremely helpful when he said yes, and will.i.am said yes right away. So that was incredible and a lot of people. Honestly, Howie Mandel just said, I think it's important. I think this is an important film. So I was surprised at how many people said yes, but I think it was because they knew what the mission of the film was. And they want to reframe ADHD once and for all, and because the world has it wrong, and we need to get it right.Hannah Choi 11:22 Yes, yes, I agree. I interviewed Bob Shea, who's a children's author who has ADHD. And he felt the same way. He was really happy to talk about his challenges. He was diagnosed as an adult, he was really happy to talk about his challenges, because he is for the same reason. Yeah. So did creating the documentary change anything for ADHD, about ADHD? For you, I mean, your experience change? Nancy Armstrong 11:46Well, I think it's funny. First of all, I will say the experiences are all universal. And that was really surprising to me that as we interviewed all of these families, it was the same story of our family. So it is interesting, it's a real community and the same story of all the public personalities that spoke so everyone has had this sort of shared universal experience that they don't know, it feels very isolating, like, you're the only one going through it. And you're the only one having this experience. But it's actually very universal among 10% of the population. So you're not alone. But also how difficult it is, even when you know, what it is and how it works and what you can do to help you still, as a parent, fall down every once in a while, and there's a lot of parental guilt. You know, in fact, while I was in the middle of making the film, my 16 year old daughter said to me, "You're making a film on this, and you still don't get it". And I thought, Oh, interesting. Wow, every day, and I'll still say, the dumb thing of like, What do you mean you missed 10 homework assignments, you didn't turn it? What are you doing, like, you know, it's not intentional, it's just, that's what happens. And you have to put systems in place to help them and, you know, try to avoid situations like that, but they're going to happen, that's just the nature of growing up with ADHD.Hannah Choi 13:04And, and that brings back the how important it is for parents and people to learn about ADHD so that they can recognize maybe something is going on, that their child could get help with earlier than later. The the story of Zara really just broke my heart, my heart went out to her mother, she, she's seems like it was really painful for her to remember back to before she knew that her daughter had ADHD. And just thinking, you know, there's so many families out there that are going through or have gone through that.Nancy Armstrong 13:37Oh, yeah, the story is so relatable. I mean, people have told me they watch the film, and they cry through the whole thing. Which is, means it's hitting a nerve, a very universal corner, particularly of parental guilt. And same things I should say, because these kids will really push you to the brink of your sanity and patience. Because there really, there's a relentlessness about so many kids with ADHD that is hard to parent. But I think it's so healing for parents to watch the film. And so healing for kids to watch the film to know that it's not just them. And this is the way your brain is wired. And it's okay. It will be challenging growing up, but you can harness it and make a great life for yourself.Hannah Choi 14:20 Yeah, it's yeah, it's beautiful. It really is a beautiful message in there. And you brought up the brain. I love that you had an explanation of the brain and how that works. And I've noticed in my work with people, when they find out how their brain works and how their brain causes them to do or not do things really, really helps. It really helps to just understand and feel better about it.Nancy Armstrong 14:44I thought it was important to show the brain science behind this because there is so much confusion, particularly this myth that ADHD doesn't exist. So I wanted to blow right through that with the brain science showing exactly how the brain works. Where ADHD is, you know In the brain, and you know how it's working in the brain, and also to show if people decide to use stimulant medication as one of the tools, what that's actually doing in the brain and how for people with ADHD, if there's no high that they get, it only calms them down. I mean, that's a critical thing to understand is that people with ADHD takes stimulant medication, there's no euphoria, it just brings them there, their dopamine is here, and it brings it to here. You know, with a person who is not ADHD, they're no normal dopamine level then shoots up. That's why they're getting a high because they're having something unnaturally high in their brain. So that's important to understand. And I understand there's, you know, there's an Adderall shortage, it probably it's either supply chain, or it has to do with the fact that too many doctors, regular doctors, like primary care physicians, or pediatricians are just writing prescriptions for pushy parents of kids who haven't been properly diagnosed. And that's a problem we need to solve. But that has no relationship to people who have been diagnosed properly with ADHD and need that medication because it's making a huge difference in helping them live a better life.Hannah Choi 16:13Yeah, and that's another reason why understanding that brain science is so important to help people understand that the medication is not you know, like how the medication works. Once you understand how it works, it's a lot easier to understand why someone would take it because it really does sound like quite contradictory. Why would I give stimulant medication to someone who already has a lot of energy? So but when you understand how the brain works, then it makes sense. Yeah. So in addition to that, which what are some key takeaways that you feel are really important for parents to and parents and educators? Right, and just people in the world that interact with other people that might have ADHD? What can they take away from your film?Nancy Armstrong 16:56Well, one of the messages of the film is if we could just help people understand in broader society, that these are imaginative, creative beings, that just need a little more support to get on the right track. And I'm talking mostly about children who really struggle because, you know, the very nature of a sort of assembly line, rote approach to education is anathema to the ADHD brain. So if you have children in your class that are late that are not turning in homework, it might make sense to investigate what's going on, rather than just writing them off as a bad kid. Maybe this is a child with ADHD, maybe the parents, no, maybe they don't. But as soon as you understand those children in your class that have ADHD, you can approach them differently. And there's a relationship that can happen between a teacher and a child that makes a world of difference. If the teacher writes the child off, the child knows, and they give up, and there's, that's the end of that, that's the end of eighth grade science. That's it. Or if the child can have understanding from the teacher, if the teacher can say, Okay, I know you have ADHD, so I know these things are going to be difficult for you. But these things are going to be easier for you. So let's make sure we're focusing on your strengths and some of your challenges. And that's a that creates a relationship. And, you know, I remember my son had a Spanish teacher freshman year in high school, who was so determined for him to succeed. He just said, I know you can do it, I know you can do it. And my son felt sort of an obligation to that teacher, to prove him not prove him wrong, you know, so the teachers can have an incredibly positive impact on children. And I think to empower teachers with that knowledge is a huge takeaway. And then I think for parents, you also have an incredible responsibility and ability to have such a positive impact on your child, if you can control your response to them, which is incredibly difficult day in and day out. Everyday is Groundhog Day, what we just talked about yesterday is now happening again today, as if yesterday never happened. So it does require Herculean patience, and that's a good thing to develop in life anyway for an adult way. But, you know, just love your child, even when they're, you know, really behaving badly is to just love them through those moments. You'll feel like a better person, you'll feel like a superstar person if you can do that. And your child will fare so much better under those circumstances. So I think that the the message is like parents are kind of the childhood cure for ADHD because without parents by your side fighting for you advocating for you, loving you, it's really hard to get through.Hannah Choi 19:39And I love that that message came through really strongly with the families that you interviewed the parents. You could tell they they just love their children so much and just we're trying so hard to to help them and and their hearts are just breaking for them. It was it was very moving. It was very, very moving to watch that. Nancy Armstrong 20:01Oh, thank you. And I see that in school, we do screenings, we've done screenings all over the country. And the parents, we do q&a, usually afterwards. And parents cry through that q&a. I mean, it's the same pain. It's so universal. And you know, it's interesting, they're doing, I just read, they're doing a screening in Ireland, they, so there's a screening in Ireland, and they're doing a q&a Afterward, I won't be there. But it's just amazing that all over the world, the screenings are happening, and people are having this new conversation about ADHD and, and finding community, which I think is so important. I've never had one public conversation about it, until I made the film. And, you know, the film was like a forum for those conversations.Hannah Choi 20:44Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's, that is exactly why I'm doing this conversation. This, that's exactly why I'm doing this podcast is to have more of these conversations. And hopefully, even just one person hears the conversation and recognizes that it's okay to talk about and that it's helpful to talk about it. And it's helpful to find the community and, and, actually, that's something that that that you guys brought up in the documentary was how important it is to try to reach people because there are services and there are support supports and information and knowledge and, you know, family support and child support and medication support. But helping people learn about that and get access to that is, is the hard part. And so thank you for doing the work that you're doing and why I do what I do. Nancy Armstrong 21:36So, yeah, yeah, that's another thing that's really concerns me is that there, there's a dearth of ADHD experts in the country and around the world. So one of the things I think we really need to do is have more training for primary care physicians, more training for pediatricians, because they don't have the requisite amount of training to really deal with this. And they're going to have to because there won't, in the absence of experts, it will fall to them. And we saw in the film, you know, Bear's pediatrician told his mother to cut Concerta in half. And Concerta is a time release medication. So you can't cut time release medication in half. Bear was given a whole day's worth of, of a methylphenidate because of cutting that in one shot because of cutting that medication in half. So that's unacceptable, you know, primary care physicians prescribing this medication need to know how to prescribe it, and how to tell parents to use it because they don't know it's up to the doctors, and they're obviously under trained.Hannah Choi 22:43Yeah. And Bear's mom was, you know, had the, the, the knowledge that there was someone else she could ask that she, you know, could get more information, but not everybody realizes that a lot of people, you know, have the experience, you know, where they, they either don't trust the doctor, so they don't look for more help. Or they, they just take the doctors word for it. And they don't realize like, oh, you can ask for more you can if it doesn't feel right, you can look for help elsewhere.Nancy Armstrong 23:14So I'm glad, or if one medication doesn't work, and that is a painful process is that trial and error process. If one doesn't work, there's another one that might and, you know, good for her for sticking it out and finding I think it was focalin that finally, like, just gave bare target symptom relief with no side effects. And he, you know, his life just got so much better because he was happier. You know, no child wants to be disruptive in class. They're not doing it on purpose. Their brains are wired differently. And they're telling them to move when they're supposed to sit still. They're telling them to speak when they're supposed to be quiet. So getting that support is incredibly valuable to child because children just want to go to school every day and fit in. It's like going to school every day where everyone has blue paint, and you show up with yellow paint. It's a horrible feeling. I mean, you know, my son now is 21. But he just recalls how despairing he was how bereft he was at having that experience every day and how hopeless it made him feel. Even though we were on top of it, even though we were supporting him. It's still like they're going there for eight hours a day. And if they feel that they're out of step the entire time. That's got to be a terrible feeling.Hannah Choi 24:29Yeah, and that early, early, early experience of that, you know, all those experiences that we have, create those connections in our brains and then to unlearn those feelings about yourself and to unlearn the your expectations of how people are going to react to you. And that's that is a lifelong process. I mean, regardless of your if whether you have ADHD or not like the things that happen to us as children, you know, it's stuff we have to deal with for the rest of our lives. Nancy Armstrong 25:00They make lasting, you know, they make indelible marks on your psyche. And, you know, the other thing with kids is because they miss social cues because they're a little out of step socially. They get bullied, kids with ADHD are bullied two times more than kids without ADHD, and more than half of kids with ADHD are bullied. And that is a terrible thing to have to overcome, you know, and leaves lasting damage. And so even though I was a parent who was pretty on top of it, I mean, it was very unpopular in my town, because just golf parents up, I mean, I was pretty relentless. Trying to stop it, and you know, why would stop one and another one would pop up. But, you know, it's still it still leaves a lasting mark on their emotional development.Hannah Choi 25:46Yeah. And that brings up the importance of, of, you know, reaching out if, and getting therapy and therapy to help develop strategies to get you through your day, but also therapy to help, you know, with those emotions that come along with, like, not fitting in to, to what society expects people to, to act like. I imagined that that's really helpful. I was glad that you guys address that in the document in the documentary, and coaching as well. Is that Nancy Armstrong 26:16Yeah, very important. I mean, there's a toolbox of things that can really help manage ADHD. And I don't think the film doesn't advocate for any one of them. More specifically, it's really a multi pronged approach that is, is, you know, the best prescription for managing ADHD.Hannah Choi 26:33Yeah, absolutely. So, as an executive function, coach, I'm, you know, always curious about how you have challenges affect different people, what areas of executive function challenge you?Nancy Armstrong 26:46Well, I don't have ADHD, I think I grew up with it, I think I'm one of there's like, 25, there's 25%, or 30% of people who have symptoms in childhood, but outgrow them when their brain reaches full maturity. And my brain didn't really reach full maturity until I was 30. So that's kind of another sign of ADHD or we lag behind. But my husband definitely still has it, both the positives and the negatives. And, as do my children, and I think the biggest one for adults, that is, details. It's those details and time management and, you know, those kinds of things. So I'm a compulsive list maker, you know, which is probably my way of overcompensating for, you know, the challenges I had in my, you know, childhood and 20s. Super organized now, like psychotically, organized basically swung the pendulum from total disorganization to militant organization. So I'm probably more regimented now as a as a reaction to being so unregimented.Hannah Choi 27:55Yeah, right. Right.Nancy Armstrong 27:57It's a coping. It's a coping skill.Hannah Choi 27:59Yeah, absolutely. I, I have a terrible my working memory is, is pretty atrocious. And so I am like, crazy about writing things down and making lists and resetting reminders. And it's still forget things here and there. But yeah, I think you have to, you kind of have to go to the other side. And with that comes, that comes with maturity, right? As we get older, we can recognize the value of doing those things. And it's harder when you're little. But I loved how the kids started to say it, like, especially Zara, she mentioned that she realized that, that working a little harder and try and doing different things to make things better for herself, really, really paying off in the long run, which I loved.Nancy Armstrong 28:40And, I think for adults, too. We had an adult female in the film, and I think it was really great to see how it affects an adult's life. You know, I think a lot of adults weren't diagnosed as children and then figure it out when they have children. Because otherwise I wouldn't figure it out. You know, if you're, if your children are, it's kind of when your kids get diagnosed, that you go, "Oh, that's exactly me, too". You know, my mother, I think had a pretty serious case of ADHD. We never understood what it was. And I think she felt bad about it for so much of her life, not knowing exactly why she was the way she was, but knowing she was different. And it was, you know, just it was what it was. So I think it's super helpful for people who think they may have ADHD. And it's to the degree to which it's really causing impairment in your life. Everyone forgets who he is, and, you know, forgets things every once in a while, but it's the degree to which it becomes untenable in your life and starts to really interfere with being successful.Hannah Choi 29:37Right? Yeah, I used to work at an office for students with disabilities at a community college. And so often, like our kids would come in to get tested for learning disabilities, or they would go to an outside source to get tested for ADHD. And their parents who would always come in or call or somebody say, oh, my gosh, I realize now that that's me, like I I finally have an explanation for why I have had challenges in my life. And so, yeah, it's it's wonderful to see adults figuring that out. Nancy Armstrong 30:07Yeah, I think it's a huge relief. Absolutely. You know, you know, as Eliza said, In the film, before she found out, you know, she, where she was diagnosed, she just thought she was terrible at adulthood. Yeah. And that's, you know, it's heartbreaking, very successful. She's very successful entrepreneur, but, you know, keeping all the details and time management and all those things were really a challenge for her but big picture thinking, and, you know, creating things she was great at.Hannah Choi 30:36Yeah, yeah, one of my clients. He's an adult who actually has graduated from coaching, but he was diagnosed at 33. And he's the same way, you know, just really great at the big, the big picture and harder with the details. And, and he said, it just explained everything for him in his life. And now he's just doing so great. And he, it's really wonderful to see the progress that he's made, figuring out how his brain works, and what works and what doesn't so. So is there anything else that you want to mention? Nancy Armstrong 31:17I want to tell people where to find the film. You can find the film on iTunes, Apple TV, Google Play YouTube, Amazon Prime and Vudu.Hannah Choi 31:26Yeah, I've watched it on Amazon.Nancy Armstrong 31:28We can screen it at your schools. You know, I think we, we need to get this film in schools.Hannah Choi 31:35Absolutely. Yes, I will put all the information in the show notes for how they can find out more about screenings, and about the film itself, and the important message that it's sharing with everybody. Really appreciate it. Is there anything else that you're working on? Is this inspired you to do something else?Nancy Armstrong 31:59Right now I'm focusing on promoting the film. Whenever we, you know, reach the tipping point. It's not we're not there yet. So I want it to be ubiquitous. And I think it will be a sort of an evergreen film. I mean, we have the world's we follow a diverse number of families and, and have all these, you know, well known people speaking in the film, so I think this will be the film. And until it's out there everywhere. My work is not done.Hannah Choi 32:27Yeah. Oh, good. Great. Yes. It's, I just tell everyone, please go watch this movie, this documentary. It's, first of all, it's just so well made. It's so easy and enjoyable to watch. Heartbreaking at times. And so uplifting and full of hope at the end, and actually not even just at the end throughout. And I just, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. So thank you for that work.Nancy Armstrong 32:55Oh, well, I made the film with Atlas films. Director is Stephanie Soechtig and another producer, Kristen Lazar, and they are brilliant documentary filmmakers. And they've done, you know, a number of documentaries that have really taken a subject and turned it on its head, like, set up the Devil We Know, Under the Gun. So I was extremely excited when they said yes to working with me on this. And I think the film is is good as it is, in large part because of working with them. Hannah Choi 33:24Well, thank you so much, Nancy, for joining me today and sharing about your film and for continuing to do the work that you're doing to help people understand ADHD and understand people with ADHD it's so important to so thank you for doing it.Nancy Armstrong 33:38Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.Hannah Choi 33:43And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to learn more about The Disruptors. And as I mentioned before, beyond booksmart is offering free access to view the film through January 26 2023. So I really hope you get to take advantage of that. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Nancy inspiring, and that you get a chance to view the film. As Nancy aims to do with The Disruptors. We here at focus forward. I also hope to help as many people as we can with each episode. So please share our podcast with your colleagues and your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen. And if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by sharing that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Whether it's the first day at daycare or preschool, the beginning of kindergarten, or the transition to middle or high school, sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. But for college, it can can be downright terrifying. According to both the experts and the people in my life, it’s the biggest leap of faith of all - especially these days with the high rates of depression and anxiety among college kids (both of which have doubled since 2014!) Luckily, there are people like Dr. Marcia Morris out there to support both our kids and ourselves. Marcia is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida and she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the university. Marcia and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives.Here are some resources related to the topic of college students' mental health.988 LifelineLearn More about Dr. Marcia MorrisMarcia’s websiteThe Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College StudentsPsychology Today BlogCollege Mental Health ResourcesHealthy Minds StudyHow Colleges Today Are Supporting Student Mental HealthStudent mental health is in crisis. Campuses are rethinking their approachBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health ChecklistTaking a Mental Health Leave from CollegeGap YearsTaking a Gap Year Before Grad SchoolTaking a Gap Year Before CollegeLearn More About Gap Years Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 0:04 Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges, and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Happy New Year, everyone. We made it through another year. And I have to say I am super excited about what's to come in 2023. I'm so glad you're here with me. And I hope you continue to find this podcast useful, and relatable and easy to listen to. We're always open to new topic ideas. So if you've got anything you'd like me to explore, please reach out. Sending our kids off into the world at any age is a scary thing. Their first day at daycare or preschool, when they start kindergarten, or transition to middle or high school. Both of my kids will be starting at new schools next year, high school for my daughter and middle school for my son. So you might want to check in on me and see how I'm doing later this fall. But I think the scariest is probably going to be when they head off to college. From what I hear from friends and family is that it's the biggest leap of faith that you'll take as a parent. And especially these days when we hear that the rates of depression and anxiety among college kids have doubled since 2014. And we have way too much access to news which can really make it seem like bad stuff is happening all the time, even though it's not. But luckily there are people like Dr. Marsha Morris out there. Marsha is a psychiatrist at the University of Florida. And she provides mental health support both on campus and virtually for students at the University. She's also written a book, which she'll talk about and she writes a blog as well. Marsha and I sat down to talk about the best ways that parents can help their kids succeed in school, how medication may play a role in that success, and how kids can find joy in both their academic and social lives. Before I dive into this important conversation, I want to share a critical resource that everyone needs to know about the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline. This completely free service offers 24/7 Call, text and chat access to trained crisis counselors who can help people experiencing suicidal substance use and or mental health crisis or any other kind of emotional distress. People can also dial 988 If they are worried about a loved one who may need crisis support. Do not hesitate to reach out for help if you are struggling, or you suspect a loved one might be okay. Thank you for listening and now on to the show. Hi, Marcia. Thanks so much for joining me for today's episode.Marcia Morris, MD 3:06 I'm so glad to be here today, Hannah.Hannah Choi 3:09 Great I'm really looking forward to this conversation about supporting college kids. My kids are are not yet ready for school or college. My daughter's my eldest is in eighth grade. But I know it's gonna happen in a blink of an eye. So could you introduce yourself to our listeners? Marcia Morris, MD 3:26 Sure. My name is Dr. Marcia Morris. And I've worked as a college psychiatrist at the University of Florida for nearly 30 years. I became a college psychiatrist right after I finished my training. And I chose to work with university students because it's such an exciting age where so many changes are going on and people are finding out their path in life. So, but one thing that I've noticed over the years is it's kids are facing more challenges and having more mental health issues. And as a result of that, I'll mention a book I wrote for parents of college students called The Campus Cure: A Parent's Guide to Mental Health and Wellness for College Students. It really takes a team you need providers, parents, professors to all help students be successful in school. And I write a blog for Psychology Today called College Wellness: Promoting Happiness and Health and the College Years. Again, for parents who can be great facilitators and helping college students have a joyful college experience.Hannah Choi 4:39 Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in Santa Barbara, California, back when I lived where it was warm year round, and, and and a lot of the work that we did was helping parents figure out how to best support their kids. And so I'm really excited to dive into that today with you. So good. Thanks. Thank you for joining me. So what are some, I mean, let's dive right in. What are some, what's some advice that you can give to parents who have kids that are heading off to college?Marcia Morris, MD 5:16 Well, I have a an expression that is, uses four Ts. It's tell, teach, talk and take action. And the tell part is really letting your kids know that you love them, you're there for them, you support them, they can call you any time. And it's really important to say that because kids say, Oh, I go into college, I should be totally on my own, but you're a good sounding board for them. So tell them you're available, you should teach them about some of the challenges that they could face, whether it's related to availability of substances, like alcohol, and kind of setting limits for themselves, but also teach them about mental health issues. Because unfortunately, rates of depression and anxiety are going up in college. And so you, if your child is experiencing this, you want them to get help as soon as possible. So talking openly about mental health is really important teaching them about that. Talk regularly. When you go, your child goes to college, or it could be like talking on the phone doing a video chat. I know there's a lot of texting going on. But there is value to having that either phone contact or face to face contact at least once a week, if not more the first year just to see how they're doing because it's a very...the first year is a pretty vulnerable time. And take action if you think something really bad is going on. And that could be visiting your child at the school if they just sound really bad. Well, that might be the last step. The first step might be saying, Hey, I'd like to speak with your RA and check in with them and maybe talk to both of you because I I'm concerned about you. But But things can, things can be really stressful and kids can get in a vulnerable place. And sometimes kids even stopped going to class. So it's if that's happening, if something seems like your child is very depressed, it's it's time for a visit to the school. So that's the take...you hope you that that doesn't happen. Or it might be a visit that weekend to check in. It may not be that dramatic, it might be Hey, you know, you sound like you're having a tough time. I'd love to just visit over the weekend and check in. I like that. Yeah, calling every day even if you're think someone's in a bad spot. Yeah,Hannah Choi 7:49 I like the story that you shared in your book about I think the girl was called Sarah. And just her experience, how her mom kind of went through that process that you just explained. And, and I and I really I liked, I liked hearing that story, because I felt like, I felt like she supported. She She helped her daughter both figure out how to solve it by herself and gave her some actual nice support for her as well. SoMarcia Morris, MD 8:20 right and you don't want you know, you might need to come and visit but you don't want to be there all the time. But it it it just there might be some moments in the college experience where students need more help. And hopefully, when that's happening, your student is already speaking with a therapist or a psychiatrist. And it's worthwhile encouraging your student to sign a HIPPA release of information form so that you can the you your child and the psychiatrist or the therapist can talk together and problem solving. Find out what's going to help your student get through their the crisis they might be experiencing.Hannah Choi 9:04 And do you do you ever find in your experience where the student doesn't want the parent involved but still needs that support?Unknown Speaker 9:16 Sometimes if someone's having a severe problem, they don't want the parents involved at the beginning. But I would say in almost all instances if things if they're not feeling better, they're more depressed, they're having trouble functioning. Most of the time they'll allow a family member or a friend and might not be the parent but they they will allow someone someone that that but so they might say oh I can handle this on my own I'm fine. And a year later they're still struggling. And they say yeah, let's call my... dad and get him involved. So but it's you can't force it on someone and legally the only way you can call a parent with about a student's consent is if there is an immediate risk of danger to self or others. And maybe twice in 30 years, I've done that it's such a rare event. And it has to be really important to talk with other people and get even legal counsel and make sure you're not overstepping the bounds of the law, because you really want to protect people's confidentiality. But most most students at some point, recognize you they can't go at it alone. If their depression is really bad, they need to involve someone else for support.Hannah Choi 10:33 Yeah. And so that, that makes me think that the importance of maintaining a good relationship with your child when they're away at school, and so how do you what do you suggest for parents for ensuring that happen? Unknown Speaker 10:49 Well, I have another acronym. It's love. Hannah Choi 10:54 Oh, I love it. Marcia Morris, MD 10:55 So the L is laugh and enjoy. And the point of that is, you have to have a good just have a fun relationship with your child, it's not always going to be fun, you're, you're not their best friend, you're still their parent, but But you have to have that enjoyment together, because they're not going to listen to you otherwise, right? You know, a show, there might be a show you watch together, if when they're home, take a walk together, it can't be all about, you need to do this. Hannah Choi 11:22 Yeah, you need to connect with them. Unknown Speaker 11:24 We right we have to have that initial kind of bond, this the bond makes sure there's that loving bond first before you can do anything other, otherwise, your kids aren't gonna want to listen to you. But anyways, the other thing that I think it's really important for parents to is, O, part of love observe. We can get very wrapped up in our kids, and we think they're the greatest thing on earth. And sometimes we don't see when they're having an issue or they're struggling with something, we want to think everything's good. And there are some parents who are negative and just find fault. But try to find that that happy medium of just seeing your kid seeing - Are they making friends at school? Are they Is it the end of freshman year, and they're still very lonely, and they haven't made a friend and that that's a time where you might make some try to get them connected with a counseling center or encourage them to join clubs. But are they making the development are they developing academically and socially? But see, see how you think they're doing and then then also, but validate where they're really are shining and progressing. And let's say they got a C in a class and they they took a similar class next semester, and they worked hard and got a tutor and got an A, like, say, Wow, that's so you know, I saw you do that, that's, I saw you put the effort in, that's really great. And also validate when they're, they're having a tough time. And, like, I think when I went to college, it was easier than what my kids, I just in general, less stressful than when my kids went to college. So sometimes parents have a tendency said, Oh, it wasn't that bad when I went to college, but some things are just harder. Now. It's more competitive, it's harder to get into grad school. So validate that there might be struggles, but also, the last part of love is encourage, even if they're struggling and there, you still encourage them problem solve. I use that word a lot. But problem solved. If you're really stuck, say, Listen, I want to sit down with you and look at we'll go on the website of school and let's think about what resources you can do to you know, make this work. And so that it's really important to you don't want to be totally you don't want to say goodbye or going to college. But most don't. Most parents are pretty involved now. Yeah, but but it's it's important. You don't want to be overly involved either.Hannah Choi 14:00 Right? You have to find a good balance. Marcia Morris, MD 14:02 Yeah, right. But but you do. I think kids need a lot of encouragement toHannah Choi 14:08 Yeah, I mostly work with college age students, for my executive function coaching clients. And this is all sounding very familiar to me experiencing like challenges freshman year, and then heading into sophomore year with a little bit more support, you know, from a coach or from like, mom had to step in and help a little bit and now and then they then they really start to do well with a little extra support.Marcia Morris, MD 14:37 So right and I like you know and I your company does great coaching I know that and and sometimes there's something called Success Coaching on campus. It's not at every school but though they will they those coaches will take a look at students holistically and see how they're doing socially, academically and often they can access the grades. And sometimes students, if they're doing badly might not want to admit it. So they'll just sit with a student be very supportive and direct them, they might direct them to a different major, some kids start, it's actually I read something, at least 30% of students switch majors, at least one time, I've heard a range of statistics, but it's very common to switch majors. So they might have helped them switch majors, they might suggest a different club to join. So that guidance is so helpful.Hannah Choi 15:38 Yeah, right, helpful. I know, I always encourage my clients take advantage of your academic advisor. Or if you qualify for services at the Disability Resource Center, go and get to know them, even if you don't go regularly just know what they offer. And, and so is that is that something that you recommend to your students as well? Marcia Morris, MD 15:59 Absolutely, absolutely. For all the patients in our clinic, we generally encourage them to sign up for the Disability Resource Center for whether they have anxiety, depression, or ADHD. Because they you never know when they're going to need the resources. Sometimes they they register, we have to write a letter and they submit it and they register. And they may not even use it, but then there might be a point where they need it. And the accommodations could include time and a half for testing or testing in a quiet room. And then to get additional accommodations. It's more of a kind of a discussion with the Disability Resource Center about whether they can hand and work late. And and so there's Yeah, it's a process and that has benefited many students that I've worked with over the years. Yeah, very appreciative of the disability resource centers on campus.Hannah Choi 16:57 Yeah, that was that's always my one of my first questions for anyone who might qualify for services there. Have you checked in with them? Have you gotten to know them. And I saw that a lot when I worked in, in, in the office that I worked at is sometimes some semesters kids needed it, you know, for everything and other semesters they didn't. But just having itMarcia Morris, MD 17:20 Right, and with mental health issues, with some mental health issues, there could be an exacerbation of symptoms, ADHD, tends to be pretty steady. And you know, what kind of some of the issues are with depression, something might happen in someone's life, and they might have a more severe episode and need more accommodations at that moment. Get registered, and then going back in and, you know, adding accommodations can be very helpful. One thing I was going to suggest also is students should register at the very beginning of the year. We had talked before about how with COVID. It's sometimes it's there's students have been more overwhelmed, at least on our campus, they're accessing the disability resource center. Yeah. But so you want to get ahead of the line as much as possible. Because if you wait till the middle or end of the semester, it can be hard to get an appointment to discuss options. Yeah. And also counseling services. Hannah Choi 18:25 Yeah, yeah. And if you, the student, are feeling overloaded or stressed, because it's midterms, you adding an additional appointment of getting to know the place is just an additional thing to do. If you've already connected with them during the time where you're not stressed out schools just beginning, then it's, it's gonna be a little easier for you won't feel like such a hurdle.Marcia Morris, MD 18:48 That's absolutely true. Yeah. Hannah Choi 18:51 So speaking of depression and anxiety, do you are you and COVID are you seeing a difference? Pre and Post COVID?Marcia Morris, MD 19:00 Well, yes, absolutely. And but what's been interesting and unfortunate is the trend has been upwards even before COVID. But in 2020, there's a national survey called the Healthy Mind study that's been tracking rates of depression and anxiety on college campuses. And so, in 2021, the study found that 41% of students screened positive for depression. And that's what's actually high number and 34% for anxiety. It uses a screening test. And again, the students who might take the survey perhaps they might have more issues anyways, but yeah, nonetheless, the trend has been upward. And the rate that is that rate for depression is double what it was in 2014, and the rate of anxiety is up by 50%. So that's a huge, huge increase. And we actually, I worked with a research group and we did a study that showed the rate of depression combined with anxiety, like having both. We use Healthy Minds data, by the way, but it has doubled since 2013. So, so and so we see more students experiencing the symptoms. It's not just happening in college, though we've there's been an increase of depression and anxiety and high school, but it is. So the COVID certainly made things harder. And I know it's a sign of the times there are stressful things going on in the Yeah, yeah, the economy. And COVID was just hard for everyone. But there's hope people can feel better. They can do therapy, they can, if needed, take medication, they can exercise, it's not going to cure depression, but it certainly helps really. I was gonna say one other thing, though, related to the depression and anxiety. I think the biggest problem of COVID was the social isolation where kids were, for safety reasons. And we didn't know how to handle COVID like students, high school and college students were often isolated. And that in that instance, their social skills fell behind. They were lonely loneliness can increase anxiety and depression. And what's interesting is now they're back. They're in class, they're interacting. But they're having some more anxiety about the interactions. It feels different. And I think it's the same for people outside of college.Hannah Choi 21:47 Oh, absolutelyMarcia Morris, MD 21:48 We're all adjusting. So but so, I'm a big supporter of therapy, individual, group therapy. And I think I want to encourage students to take advantage of those resources, whether it's on campus or off campus to deal with any, like strong feelings of depression and anxiety. And that would be like the first line of treatment before going to medication. Yeah.Hannah Choi 22:15 Yeah. And and every campus out there is going to have some kind of support center for students. And it can be hard to take that first step of making the phone call or going and walking in the door, but or maybe it's virtual, maybe it can be held virtually now. Do you guys do virtual, which can make it easier?Marcia Morris, MD 22:39 Yes. During the, during the first year of the COVID pandemic, I was doing 100% virtual psychiatry, working from home. Yeah, I'm back in the office. But what is very interesting to me, is that a lot of students like the virtual, you're good at technology, if they don't want to drive across to the apartment and deal with parking. Yeah, they might be. I sometimes work with medical students, they're on rotations. They can go into an office and do their session and then go back to work. In my opinion that telehealth has been a silver lining of the pandemic where we've we've improved those resources.Hannah Choi 23:25 So if a student or if a parent feels like their child, or a student feels like they want to take advantage of therapy on campus, who would be their first person to go to?Marcia Morris, MD 23:39 They should call the counseling center on campus directly. And then they would generally they either might speak with someone on the phone or see someone. And what's happened on a lot of campuses, the therapy is tended to be more short term. It does vary from campus to campus, so some will do long term therapy. So this, the student needs to maybe go on the website, see what the services are, and decide what what they need. So it might be doing some short term therapy on campus in transitioning off campus or doing a telehealth kind of therapy or psychiatry. I like one of the things I like about my job on campus in particular is I get to see students from freshman year and is through. Yeah, it was psychiatry, it's hard to do short term treatment because they might be on medicine for a while, right. So so we really they really do need, you know, consistent follow up. But I do think also some students would benefit from long term therapy and I would like to see campuses make that more available to students. I know the resources are limited and they're being stretched, but I think it's so important for young adults to get therapy early on to prevent problems getting more serious. So I'd like to see more access to both therapy and psychiatry on campus. And if not on campus, and even through through community mental health centers with affordable resources, I think, nationally, we need to really get young adult mental health improved.Hannah Choi 25:23 Absolutely, I completely agree. Marcia Morris, MD 25:26 But, but parents can get involved in trying to figure out what where the resources are. And because it's, if you're depressed, it's hard to kind of work through situations. And the other thing I wanted to mention is a lot of campuses have a case manager, who might be may or may not be a social worker, but they can cut, they can help the student connect with resources. Sometimes the case manager is in the counseling center. Sometimes it's might be in the Dean of Students Office. But there's each campus runs a different site, it's very, very as you work varies tremendously. But if you need to find a helper to connect you, that's the key to and the parent can be critical in that process.Hannah Choi 26:15 And so you mentioned medication, how does? How do how do medications come into play here, and how can parents support their child if they either are on medication already, or might need to look, go down that path.Marcia Morris, MD 26:30 One way they can support the students is if they're coming to school on medicine, to try to facilitate them having continuous treatment, because one of the worst things that can happen, especially with antidepressants is stopping the medicine. Right? If someone wants to come off of a medicine, they need to taper slowly and work with a provider. So continuity of care is extremely important when they're coming to college. The other issue is the sometimes parents have doubts about the need for medicine, or they worry about side effects. And with antidepressants, by the way, there is a blackbox warning, talking about increased risk of suicidal behavior. Teenagers up until 25. The study showed that the concerning time is really under 18. But nonetheless, occasionally, when a young adult starts any antidepressant they can have kind of new suicidal thinking. So the important thing is, let's say a parent is said I don't want says to the child, I really feel uncomfortable with you starting any antidepressant, it's worthwhile to ask the child to say, you know, let's all meet with the psychiatrist so I can learn about how these medicines work. And know like we have an on-call system. So if the students having a problem, they can reach us, we're not just going to hand them a medicine and say there you go! We don't do that. But what we do do is that we do have follow up visits with the student and more at the beginning to see how are you feeling on this medicine? Are you having side effects? Is this the right dose, and I increase medicine very slowly, because you do not want to cause side effects in college students affecting concentration or energy level. So So parents, if they're having worries about the medicine, or even if they feel the student is not doing well, on the medicine can say, I want you to let the psychiatrist know that you need you need to call your psychiatrist or I'd love to meet with you and this psychiatrist because I'm observing things that concern me. But again, don't stop the medicine.Hannah Choi 28:50 That's really, that's the takeaway. And then that reminds me of like, I had a client who one thing that we were working on was making sure that he had reminders and a system to help him remember to get his refill, so that that wouldn't happen. And so that can be something that has to be learned to by the student.Marcia Morris, MD 29:14 And and you're bringing up, right. And also in the past, the parents might have picked up. The student has to, and there's an issue coming up now and hopefully it's getting better, but there's an Adderall. Sure. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:28 I read about that. Yeah. Marcia Morris, MD 29:30 So what we're doing now with students is we're saying make sure you fill the prescription right on time. And then sometimes we end up calling around to pharmacies to see where they haven't. I hope that's gonna get better soon. And what we usually are able to find it's at somewhere, but that can be a challenge. And so let's say a student goes to the pharmacy and they don't have the Adderall they need to call the psychiatrist and sometimes there's a psychiatric nurse practitioner and my thought, like, if you need to call the clinic and say, I'm facing this challenge do I've called a few pharmacies, they don't have it, can you tell me where to go? Or what to do?Hannah Choi 30:15 Yeah. And so that's something that comes up a lot for college students is learning how to ask for help take advantage of resources. And it's and it's okay to ask for help. And there are people out there that really want to support you. So that's a good example of you might have to do that.Marcia Morris, MD 30:34 Yeah, right. And, and even for my patients, sometimes, though, they might be having a side effect. But they might wait to tell me until the next appointment, I said, you can feel free to call and we've structured our clinics. So nurses will take the preliminary call and then let let us know if there's something serious going on. So you know, we tried, we try to, you know, have a team of resources, we even train our support staff to kind of figure out where to triage different calls. That's good. And yeah, we have a really, I'm really happy with the team I work with there. It's it's a very caring team. And that's also Yeah, important to make sure your student is working with a group of people or one person who seems to, you know, care.Hannah Choi 31:20 Yeah. And then that goes back again to getting in early and meeting with the people in that office and getting to know that team and having them get to know you and your child and making sure that you that they are familiar with your case. And it can just really help in times of crisis, I imagine definitely.Marcia Morris, MD 31:42 I will add one more last thing about medicine, for antidepressants, which actually treat both depression and anxiety. The question often is asked, How long will my child be on this medicine, it's pretty hard to predict. But I can say that I've had students who, let's say, have pretty bad anxiety and depression. And they do a good course of what we call cognitive behavioral therapy, which is the gold standard treatment for depression and anxiety. And sometimes after a good course of therapy and making life changes, like finding the right major, finding the right friend group, they find they can taper off of the medicine, but with the help of a psychiatrist, and I've seen that happen. The important thing is, though, generally, if someone's on an antidepressant, they they stay on it for approximately nine months to a year, because that's the timeframe it takes to have a full recovery, particularly from depression. Okay, so, so but but it doesn't have to mean forever. It really doesn't. Because I know, and I'm sorry about that. Hannah Choi 31:42 Yeah, I was gonna say that I'm sure that's comforting to parents who are concerned about their child being on medication, that it's not a forever thing. Marcia Morris, MD 32:37 And the only time it might, it's might be forever as if someone has a more severe mental health problem, like severe bipolar disorder. Sometimes that requires lifelong medicine. And that's about 1% of the population, but, but when people do well, you can keep them on lower doses, and they'll have fewer side effects and utilize therapy along with it, though, you can do it the way in that people can function and not feel overmedicated.Hannah Choi 33:40 Yeah, that's good. Yeah, find like, again, finding that balance, and making sure that the choices that the life choices that they're making, in addition to medication are also being supportive, which reminds me you just said something about a friend group. And it reminds me of a client of mine once who had a friend group that that was, was not a healthy friend group for her. And, and so and so she changed her friend group and now and you know, and then ended up having a much better experience. And that makes me think about the social experience of kids in college. And how important that is,Marcia Morris, MD 34:20 It is equally important to the academic experience is all about your social development, deciding which friends you want to hang out deciding which romantic partners you want to be with, and learn and learning how to deal deal with people in difficult situations. And having fun, I mean, college should be fun, too. It shouldn't be a total grind. It is hard. I mean I I studied pretty hard in college, but I also had some fun. And so it's important for students to find the activities they enjoy. It might be intramural sports, it might be going to to church or temple or a mosque, it, it might be. I'm trying to think of the interesting groups, I think there was an acrobatics group one time. You know, like,Hannah Choi 35:13 There's something for everyone,Marcia Morris, MD 35:15 Some of the clubs, but but it you have to find something, it's important to have fun. And that's, that's, it's just part of life, we should all have fun. But maybe do your studying during the weekend, have fun on the weekends, don't have fun, every won't be able to you know, pass your classes. School should be fun. I think the academic part there should be joy in the academics too. And it's it's important to find what you really like. And so if you're, you know, kind of pre med and you're think that's what I should do, but you say, I really liked this. It's a long, four years undergrad and four years of medical school and four years of residency to like,Hannah Choi 36:00 yeah, that's a long time. It's really,Marcia Morris, MD 36:03 But it's really important to find things you enjoy. And I think parents worry of my kid majors in English or history, they're not going to get a job. But in reality, kids get jobs doing social media for companies after graduation when they're majoring in English. It's so interesting, all the different things they do post graduation, but I think it's important to find a major you enjoy it, but still go to a Career Resource Center started. Yeah, as a sophomore beginning of junior year and start planning. Okay, I love this major. But here's I'm also going to think about a job after school. Or maybe it might be graduate school.Hannah Choi 36:43 Yeah, I was just thinking, Gosh, I don't think I went to the Career Center once when I should have done that. I'm very happy with my, my career, how it all worked out.Marcia Morris, MD 36:53 Imagine, you know, with the experience I have working with students with my kids, I said you need to go found me a little too much sometimes, but it kind of helped to you. In terms of your that you have this resource on your campus? Use it take advantage of it.Hannah Choi 37:11 Yeah, yep. I, whenever I start working with a college student, I always say to them, okay, yes, you're in, you're in college for academics. But let's make it so that your academics are, you know, as not easy as possible. But let's figure out ways systems, let's build systems, so that you have more time for your socializing, because you're right. I mean, yes, college is about academics, but it really is also about finding about who you are as a person, and learning social skills and learning the kind of people that you'd like to be around and the kind of people you need to avoid, and learning how to ask for help and become part of a group and how to function in a group. And you can't learn all that if you just do the academic. And so you need to leave time for the, that social aspect. Marcia Morris, MD 37:46 And studies actually, so show that a sense of social belonging on campus is correlated with better grades. So parents who were worried about that say, yeah, they might actually say have time to restore themselves and have some fun. They might do better academically.Hannah Choi 38:24 Yes, yes. Yep. And that's why it's so and also how you said, the adding joy to your academics, and finding something that works for you. Yes, you're gonna have to take classes that that are in your major, that that don't work for you. But if you can build systems, and figure out the tools and the strategies that you need to use to make it more bearable to get through those classes, take advantage of your resources can just make it everything so much more enjoyable. Yeah, great. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't cover today?Marcia Morris, MD 39:01 Yes, one one last thing. When your child is applying to colleges, again, take a close look and see what kind of what kind of coping skills they have where they thrive. Because some kid I have, I have one child who went to a small private college I have another tiles we went to a large state school because their needs were different. And they both they thrived in the those settings they were the right settings for them. So that's important as you're in that you can you know often work with the guidance counselor at school it's now popular and a high hire people to help with the whole application process. But if you do hire someone, find someone who's not just looking at all the best school your kid will get. Yeah, really look at your child and see where they're going to thrive. And um, the the last so I'm talking about kind of getting into school and I just also want to talk About the exit from school that yeah, that can be tricky time too. And sometimes the challenge is some kinds of classes for certain majors like engineering can get super hard at the very end, there might be a design project where you have to develop this whole system. And so that's a time to check in with your child to and see how they're doing. Because for some kids that last year can be pretty stressful, stressful, and there can be some tough classes to get into. And the other stress is for kids who haven't figured out what they want, right? Might want to go to medical school, but haven't fulfilled the requirements, help your child calm down and say, Listen, you can do a gap year you can apply to med school or another graduate school, you don't have to go go straight to grad school. So kind of paying attention to the transition into college. And the transition out is really, those are kind of tricky times where kids might need more support.Hannah Choi 41:00 And also helping helping kids realize that you don't have to follow the sort of traditional path that, that you feel like everyone else is following and because not everyone is following it and not and that's not the right path for everyone. And yeah, and taking the time to figure out what what would be best for me and what would be best for my happiness. And I have a friend who he did two years of college, and then he took a few years off, and now he's back as a student in his later 20s. And he's loving it so much more. He's having a completely different experience than he did when he was in his late teens and early 20s. And he's so glad that he didn't follow that sort of traditional path of you know, finishing the four years. And so it's, it's, and I've heard that from multiple people.Marcia Morris, MD 41:51 Yeah, yeah. And also you have for parents take good care of yourself. Because one thing I've observed with young people, they're not going to open up to you, if they think you're stressed out, or you're going to take some deep breaths, reassure your kids, everything's gonna be okay, reassure yourself, everything's gonna be okay. But it's really important to stay calm, because your kid cares about you a lot, too, and they don't want to stress you out, but just can handle things, and you guys will work things out together.Hannah Choi 42:22 Yeah, remember, I really liked how you address that in the book about how sometimes in your book, how sometimes kids will hold off on sharing something with their parents, because they they don't want to, you know, add out a burden to them or disappoint them or anything. And, and, yeah, and so that goes back to what we were talking before about maintaining that relationship with your child and the trust and keeping that rapport. It's so important.Marcia Morris, MD 42:52 You know, and who have been through grad school and you're in grad school, and that it's interesting, because the relationships continue. It's changes a lot as kids get into their late 20s. But that parent child relationship is really important. Yeah, we got to maintain the positive relationship.Hannah Choi 43:11 Yeah, it's what I've talked about with with a number of our other guests on the podcast is how, like, different strategies to you know, keep that relationship and how just just being with your child validating, like you said earlier, and just letting them know that you're there if if they need you, and that it's okay to share. And yeah, it's, it's, it's, I keep hearing that from everyone that I'm talking to. So it's something that's worth putting effort into and trying so. Well, thank you so much. It's just been a great conversation full of really good ideas. And I feel like there's a lot of like actionable advice in there for people. So yeah. And where can where can you mentioned a little bit in the beginning, but where can our listeners find you?Marcia Morris, MD 44:01 Well, I have a website, and my name is spelled Marcia M-a-r-c-i-a, but MarciaMorrismd.com. And my book, the campus cure is available on Amazon and other websites. But it's easiest to get it through Amazon. And I'm also if you Google college wellness Psychology Today, you can see my blog, I'm having a new blog coming out and it probably this weekend called "Dear College Student, You Deserve to Be Happy. You know, I want college students to be able to find joy in their experience, even though times are challenging right now.Hannah Choi 44:46 That's wonderful. Yeah. Life is life is more fun with joy in it. Yes. All right. Well, thank you, Marcia.Marcia Morris, MD 44:53 Right. It's great talking with you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 44:56 Yes, you too. And That's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to Marcia's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen, I hope you found my conversation with Marcia helpful. I know I will be listening again when it's time for my daughter to go off to college. We hope to help as many people as we can with the important conversations we have on focus forward. So please share our podcast with your colleagues, your friends and your family. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningTranscribed by https://otter.ai