Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast

Hi everyone! It’s a special day for us here at Focus Forward. Today marks our 40th episode, just days ahead of our two-year podcast anniversary. I want to thank our amazing team at Beyond BookSmart and of course, you, our listeners. It means so much to us to know that so many are finding the work that we are doing here at Focus Forward helpful.Today’s episode is also really special because I had the ultimate privilege and joy of getting to sit down with Ellen Galinsky. Ellen is the OG of researching and writing about Executive Function skills, parenthood, and child development. In addition to being the author of many books, she also founded the Families and Work Institute along with many other life accomplishments you can read about in her bio. You may have heard of or read her book “Mind in the Making” which explores seven life skills young kids need to thrive - and these life skills are Executive Function skills! In her books, she takes the brilliant work done by researchers all over the world and writes about it in a way that we non-researchers can understand and use in our lives. She’s done the same in her new book, The Breakthrough Years, which comes out in a couple of weeks on March 26. The Breakthrough Years teaches us more than just how to help our teenagers thrive, it helps us understand them. As you’ll hear Ellen explain, she asked teenagers what they want people to know about them and the messages that teens want us adults to hear make up the five chapters of the book. So tune in and learn how to help raise thriving teens through a deep knowledge of what drives them and through the application of Executive Function strategies. Learn More About Ellen GalinskyEllen Galinsky’s Websitehttps://www.ellengalinsky.comThe Breakthrough Yearshttps://ellengalinsky.com/the-breakthrough-years/Mind in the Makinghttps://www.mindinthemaking.org/Families and Work Institutehttps://www.familiesandwork.org/Other Parenting Resources I’ve Been Loving LatelyLisa Damour’s books and "Ask Lisa" podcastAliza Pressman’s book and "Raising Good Humans" podcastNever Enough by Jennifer Breheny WallaceAdam Grant’s books and “Rethinking” podcast (not parenting-focused, but still very much applicable!)Kenneth Ginsburg’s book, Congrats - You’re Having a Teen! Contact Us!Learn more about Beyond BookSmart: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/Get in Touchpodcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Today’s episode covers a topic that’s close to my heart - both as a parent and an Executive Function coach. We’ll be talking about self-advocacy for kids and adolescents with Dr. Nerissa Bauer, a behavioral pediatrician from Indiana whom I met through my colleague Wendy Craven. Nerissa and I got to meet in person at the ADHD conference in 2023, which was just so much fun that I had to bring her onto Focus Forward! Together, we explored the importance of emotional literacy, which empowers kids to recognize and express their feelings effectively. We also discussed how kids, especially those facing learning challenges or other diagnoses, can learn to advocate for themselves. You’ll hear Dr. Bauer share invaluable insights and actionable tips for parents and caregivers of all ages, from toddlers to high school seniors. I hope you enjoy listening to our conversation as much as I enjoyed being a part of it! Here are the show notes from today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Nerissa BauerYouTube Channelhttps://www.youtube.com/@NerissaBauerMDLinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-bauer-md-mph-faap-4b692967/Let’s Talk Kids’ Healthhttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/Teach Me ADHD Virtual Course for Parents and Kidshttps://www.letstalkkidshealth.org/teach-me-adhd-sales-page-general-registrationSelf-Advocacy Resources6 tips for helping your grade-schooler learn to self-advocatehttps://www.understood.org/en/articles/6-tips-for-helping-your-grade-schooler-learn-to-self-advocateThe Importance of Self-Advocacyhttps://www.understood.org/en/articles/the-importance-of-self-advocacyGetting Students on the Road to Self-Advocacyhttps://www.edutopia.org/article/getting-students-road-self-advocacy/Self-Advocacy for College Studentshttps://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-studentsEmotional LiteracyMarc Brackett, PhD talks emotional literacy with Brene Brownhttps://brenebrown.com/podcast/dr-marc-brackett-and-brene-on-permission-to-feel/Emotional Knowing and Emotional Literacyhttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/envy/202209/emotional-knowing-and-emotional-literacyDeveloping Emotional Literacy Across the Grade Levelshttps://www.edutopia.org/article/developing-emotional-literacy-across-grade-levels/Get in TouchLearn more about Beyond BookSmart: https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast@beyondbooksmart.comInstagram/Facebook/Tiktok: @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Hi everyone! In today’s episode, I sat down with Dr. Bianca Busch to talk about college students, their experiences adjusting to college, and how they can take care of their mental health. Dr. Busch is a psychiatrist in the Dallas, TX area and also the founder and CEO of The College Psychiatrists, an organization dedicated to supporting the mental health needs of college students.We explored topics such as the importance of emotion regulation - always a fave of mine, learning to recognize and manage feelings of overwhelm, and the role of friends and other support networks in promoting mental well-being in college students. As we know, the college experience is not just about academics as students must learn how to balance classroom demands with healthy social relationships. With a compassionate approach, which really resonated with me, Dr. Bush offered guidance on fostering resilience and building a foundation for success both in college and after graduation. Listen to learn from her knowledge and experience as she shares her insights into the unique challenges that college students face today.Here are some relevant resources from today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Bianca Buschhttps://www.drbiancabusch.com/https://www.collegepsychiatrist.com/https://www.instagram.com/collegepsychiatrist/Overwhelmed by College? Here's How to Regain Controlhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/overwhelmed-by-college-heres-how-to-regain-controlFreshman Social Jitters? 5 Tips to Making Friends in Collegehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/freshman-social-jitters-5-tips-to-making-friends-in-collegeWhat College Students Struggle with Most (and what you can do to help)https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/what-college-students-struggle-with-most-and-what-you-can-do-to-helpBefore Heading to College, Make a Mental Health Checklisthttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/08/well/mind/mental-health-college-students.htmlTwo Keys to Helping College Students Feel Like They Belonghttps://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/two_keys_to_helping_college_students_feel_like_they_belonContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

This week’s episode is focused on something that is both widespread and completely misunderstood - imposter syndrome. After all, there’s nothing inherently wrong with people who feel like imposters. It’s not a syndrome - especially to the degree to which the term “syndrome” is appropriate. In reality, the more accurate name is something more like “imposter phenomenon, which is actually a term coined by the original researchers on this subject, Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes, in their initial papers. Regardless of what you want to call it, feeling like an imposter who doesn’t deserve the success they’ve experienced or the position they’re in is all too common in today’s world. Left unchecked, feeling like an imposter can grow beyond self-doubt and prevent us from feeling fulfilled or confident in all areas of our lives. Luckily, my guest today is Dr. Nicole Pulliam - aka the perfect person to help you overcome your self-doubt! I was connected with Nicole through a colleague of mine, Allison Larthey, who saw her speak at the Women’s Leadership Summit in NJ in the fall of 2023. After having the pleasure of speaking with her for this episode, I now know why she was so impressed by Nicole’s presentation. Tune in to hear our conversation about how to manage feeling like an imposter, the impact of it on our lives, and what you can do to better support yourself and those around you. Here are the show notes for today's episode: Learn More About Dr. Nicole Pulliamhttps://www.realandworthyllc.com/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbSFe0FumnkLearn more about Imposter (or Impostor, both are right) PhenomenonThe Imposter Phenomenon in High Achieving Women: Dynamics and Therapeutic Intervention - Clance and Imeshttps://www.womeninanesthesiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ip_high_achieving_women.pdfImposterism, Perfectionism, and Burnout – A Toxic Triad - Dr. Tracey Markshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BMSsKWJ8gsStop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndromehttps://hbr.org/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndromeFeeling Like an Impostor Is Not a Syndromehttps://slate.com/business/2016/04/is-impostor-syndrome-real-and-does-it-affect-women-more-than-men.htmlIt's Not 'Impostor Syndrome' When You're Black and Womanhttps://watercoolerconvos.com/2016/04/20/its-not-impostor-syndrome-when-youre-black-and-woman/Dealing with Imposter Syndrome (ADHD Storytime from How to ADHD)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wbCf0gNSwThe Connection Between ADHD and Imposter Syndrome | Psychology Todayhttps://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/on-your-way-with-adhd/202302/the-connection-between-adhd-and-imposter-syndromeContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

Could we really have a podcast called “Focus Forward” without eventually covering the topic of attention and focus? Of course not! Rest assured, today’s the day, and as a person with ADHD, difficulty paying attention is one of the most frustrating aspects of my brain. Most annoyingly, I seem to notice just about everything that’s happening around me but still end up missing so much of what’s actually important for me to remember. Luckily, I now know that this is simply a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was some inherent character flaw. Can you relate to that struggle, too? Well, then this episode is for you. Today, we explore the critical Executive Function skill of attention and examine some of the most effective strategies for supporting focus in people of all learning profiles. I hope you enjoy and gain some valuable ideas to try out in your own life! If you do, be sure to leave us a review (and let me know at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com!)In the meantime, here are our show notes for today’s episode: Impact of Meditation on the BrainMindfulness Meditation Is Related to Long-Lasting Changes in Hippocampal Functional Topology during Resting State: A Magnetoencephalography Studyhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6312586/When science meets mindfulnesshttps://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/04/harvard-researchers-study-how-mindfulness-may-change-the-brain-in-depressed-patients/7 Ways Meditation Can Actually Change The Brainhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2015/02/09/7-ways-meditation-can-actually-change-the-brain/Myth of MultitaskingDan Crenshaw’s YouTube Video - Try the Myth of Multitasking Exercise!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eQyfirx2HAPsychology and Neuroscience Blow Up the Myth of Effective Multitaskinghttps://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/psychology-and-neuroscience-blow-up-the-myth-of-effective-multitasking.htmlStop Multitasking. No, Really — Just Stop It.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/29/opinion/do-one-thing-at-a-time-management.html?unlocked_article_code=1.NE0.5X_B.EppCuwbpn7YE&smid=url-shareContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptSpace CadetAirheadDaydreamerAbsent-Minded ProfessorDitzyScatterbrainedShe’s got her Head in the CloudsDreamerAny of those names sound familiar to you? I can feel my own gut reaction to saying them aloud just now and know that I have either been called them by others or called myself them inside my head. As a person with attention and memory challenges, it’s bound to happen that I forget stuff or neglect to pay attention to stuff I really should notice. And, ironically and very annoyingly, I seem to notice literally everything going on around me and at the same time, not notice the important stuff when it’s really, really important for me to do so. Now I know that this is a feature of my ADHD, but for most of my life, I thought it was just a character flaw. Can anyone relate to that, too? Well, today’s episode is about the EF skill of attention, which as you may know already, is tightly connected to the EF skill of memory. They’re like best friends and worst enemies at the same time. Frenemies, as they kids say, wait how long has that word been around? Do people still say it? Am I dating myself by saying it or making myself seem cooler than I really am. Lemme look this up MAKE TYPING NOISE Okay, I just did a quick google search and “frenemy” was first used in 1953! It’s often attributed to Jessica Mitford, Queen of the Muckrakers and notorious Civil Rights lawyer who wrote in her 1977 book “Decca: The Letters of Jessica Mitford” saying that her sister came up with the word. Wait, what’s a muckraker…hold on. Ahh, wait, okay, Hannah pay attention and get back to the episode at hand. We can learn about muckrakers later on.Okay yes, so, the connection between memory and attention. When I interviewed Dr. Sherrie All for episode 16 of Focus forward, which was all about memory, she said this: memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. So, if you struggle with remembering stuff, it might be worth an investigation into your attention EF skill. That’s what we’re going to do today. We’ll take a look at how inattention can impact our lives and what we can to do set ourselves up for success. I’ll teach you some tools and strategies our coaches like to share with our clients and I’ll also spend a little time debunking the myth of multitasking. Sorry folks, it’s not a thing. At least, not for most of us. Before we dive in, I want to talk briefly about the connection between EF skills and our emotions. As you have heard me say before and I’ll say again and again, our emotions are connected to our executive functioning. If we’re stressed, having trouble regulating our emotions, or in a crisis, our EF skills may be, will likely be, harder to access, especially the ones that we struggle with in regular times. So, if you find it hard to pay attention and your memory is anything like mine, go easy on yourself, especially in challenging times. Improving your attention can help with remembering more but the reality is that some people will still have challenges with memory, even if they are fully paying attention. Have some grace, some compassion for yourself. Listening to this episode, learning some strategies, and taking the time to learn and care for yourself is a good way to do this. Okay, so other than the direct impact on memory, how else can inattention impact our lives? Inattention can lead us to overlook important details. This can look like not noticing a negative sign in a math problem, missing a payment to the dentist, entering a wrong number on our taxes or maybe not even paying our taxes at all, missing a meeting with the boss, or putting the waistband on a pair of pants backward. That last one was me. I love to sew clothing and I did that once. Wait, I actually did it twice. In the same day. I noticed that I had put the waistband on backward and then unstitched it all, which if you’ve ever unstitched something, you know how tedious it is and then I did it AGAIN. So, inattention can have some real consequences on our grades, our finances, our time, and our self-esteem. It can also have a severe effect on our health and safety. In the kitchen, it can result in injuries or fires, while driving it could potentially lead to fatal accidents, while playing sports, we could hurt ourselves or others. We could miss cues our bodies are giving us and unintentionally delay treatment for a health condition. We could miss dangers in our environment, like when I walked head-on into a guy wire. The guy wire was fine. My knee was not. Wait a second. Is it guy wire or guide wire? I’ve always said guy wire but maybe it’s guide wire? Hold on…wait wait wait back to the episode, you can research that later, Hannah.Anyway, there are a ton of other situations I’m sure you can imagine or pull up from your own life experience. The message here is that attention is a critically important, time-saving - and potentially life-saving - EF skill to work on. So, it’s good you’re here.So, how can we set ourselves up for success? There are a bunch of things we can do to increase our attention and reduce the chance of all that bad stuff I probably just depressed you with from happening. There’s hope, folks, there’s hope. And a lot of the things we can do are pretty simple. Of course, you actually have to do them, which is the hard part but let’s all give it our best shot.First one is a magic trick. At least, for me, it seems to be a magic trick. It’s to slow down. Just slow down. It’s that simple. And yet, sooooooo hard to remember to do in the moment. But, really, slowing down can make a world of difference for your attention ability. When we rush, we’re more likely to miss things. Just this morning, my son was leaving for school and had to be there earlier than normal and had to bring some extra stuff with him. He rushed out the door and 30 minutes later, we got a call from him that he forgot the extra stuff. If he had slowed down, he would have noticed the bag we had oh so thoughtfully left right by the door. And earlier this week, I rushed to send an email to a large mailing list and then my colleague pointed out that I had forgotten to include the link I referenced in the email. In the moment, it feels like slowing down will waste time, but you can see in these two examples, we ended up having to use more time later to fix the consequences of rushing. It can help to repeat a mantra of “slow down” or “take your time”. Slowing down does not come naturally to many people and can take some time to build it into your life. But I think it’s a goal worth working towards because it helps us be more proactive and less reactive.This reminds me of that quote by Viktor Frankl: “Between the stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space lies our freedom and power to choose our responses. In our response lies our growth and our freedom”Slowing down allows us to expand that space and take advantage of the many benefits of this kind of thinking. Okay, this naturally leads me to the next tip for improving our attention - mindfulness and meditation practice. I’ve talked about this before on Focus Forward and you’ve likely heard about it before. Studies have shown that meditation and mindfulness do actually strengthen our ability to pay attention, focus on what we’re doing, and, as you might expect, remember things. You can find links in the show notes if you’d like to learn more. When we meditate regularly, we strengthen the areas of our brain that support attention and focus. The prefrontal cortex actually changes structurally! And, meditation can lower your stress levels, which as you know, will make it easier to access your executive functions. As we learned from Rachel Hulstein-Lowe in episode 12 about maintaining progress during times of transition, mindfulness doesn’t have to be anything fancy. Just taking the time to pay attention to the things we do regularly, to slow down and notice what we’re doing and the sensations we’re feeling. But, if you’re interested in a more comprehensive meditation practice, there are so many amazing resources out there in the form of apps, websites, and books. You could check out your local library, gym, and yoga studio to see if they offer meditation classes. If you are skeptical, rely on the science to convince yourself to try it. Your attention will thank you!Okay, next up is something we always hear and probably just go “yeah, yeah, yeah” about. Sleep. Prioritizing it is critical for a bajillion reasons and attention is one of the most important ones. I’m going to be interviewing sleep and ADHD specialist, Marlee Boyle and our conversation will drop sometime in April. We met the other day and I asked her for her top five tips for maximizing our sleep quality. 1) Keep a regular wake up time. Sleep regularity improves sleep quality and helps us fall asleep at a regular time. Even if you have a poor night's sleep, still wake up at the same time to prevent throwing off your sleep schedule for multiple nights2) Try not to stay in bed while you're awake. If you're awake for more than 20 minutes in your bed, try getting out of bed for 20 minutes and do something boring in low lighting until you feel sleepy and then return to bed.3) Get outside in the morning and take breaks outside as much as you can when you're not sleeping well. Sunlight is a strong regulator of sleep so by getting daylight exposure (even on overcast days) will improve your circadian rhythm and help you sleep. And, I just want to add to Marlee’s tip here that if you work at night and sleep during the day, installing blackout curtains, using a white or brown noise machine to minimize sounds that might wake you, and using a sunrise lamp for waking might help improve your sleep.4) Don't stress about not sleeping. If you're having difficulty sleeping, try not to let yourself worry about it because that will keep you awake longer. 5) Limit caffeine to just the morning time and use it strategically, rather than habitually. Okay, that’s enough for sleep. Try to get more, okay? and come back in April to learn even more from Marlee.Next up are two quick tips I like to teach my clients. Breaking large tasks down into smaller, more manageable steps and paying attention to diminishing returns. I’ve covered both of these in other episodes so I won’t get into them too deeply, but just a reminder that these two strategies can have a huge impact on your ability to pay attention. Okay, so first let’s quickly look at breaking things down. When the steps of a project are smaller and clearly defined, it’s easier to pay attention to the task. We are less distracted by worries about how long it’ll take or how hard it’ll be, the requirements of the task are clear to us, and we know there will be a stopping point relatively soon. Slowing down before you start a large task and breaking it down into these smaller steps will give you so much relief down the road. My second tip is to pay attention to diminishing returns - is your effort giving you an equal amount of productivity in return? Instead of setting a timer when you’re going to do work, try paying attention to how you’re engaging with the work. Are you finding it easy to focus? Keep going! Is your mind wandering and you can’t focus? Maybe it’s time to do something else or employ some other kind of strategy to support your focus. I recognize that many listeners may rely on urgency to get things done, so this strategy may not work for you. If that’s you, you might benefit from the procrastination episode I did - it’s episode 11 - awww, back when we were just a baby podcast.I had a college student client who did poorly on a test in an astronomy class. He got half the questions wrong even though he paid attention in class and studied well. When we took a look at what he did during class, he mentioned that he was listening to the instructor but he wasn’t taking notes and was only relying on her handouts, slides, and the text for studying materials. He decided he’d try taking notes for the second half of the semester. He got only one question wrong on the final and reported that he truly understood and remembered the material in a way he had never before. Not only did he have more resources to use when he studied for the final, he was fully engaged in the class and because of that, found it more interesting and easier to pay attention. When we engage ourselves in what we’re doing, we’re less likely to be bored and distracted and we’re more likely to remember what we did. This same strategy can be used in a variety of situations - taking notes in a work meeting is likely to help you remember what the heck your boss said, asking questions during a boring conversation with your grandmother might make it more interesting, and taking notes in a class you find boring might trick your brain into actually learning something. Granted, I know this can be a Herculean task when it’s a topic you’re completely not interested in, but I do think it’s worth a try. And you never know, you might find out that astronomy is your jam! Like, did you know that a majority of stars we see are actually binary stars? It’s not one star, but two stars orbiting around a common center of mass. Amazing!Ack, okay back to the topic at hand, Hannah - pay attention! Now, let's explore another tool for focus, and this one might not be for everyone: listening to music. Surprisingly, for some, it can enhance attention during focused work, as long as it's the right kind of music. Studies support this, even though it might spark disagreement among parents.Many find lo-fi music ideal for studying. I usually listen to mellow tunes in a foreign language to avoid getting distracted by the lyrics. If music doesn’t work for you, be honest with yourself. It can be tempting to listen anyway, even if you know it’s detrimental to your ability to focus. Instead, consider brown or white noise to minimize distracting background sounds. Finding what works best for you is key to making potentially mundane tasks more manageable.You might be wondering why I haven't delved into how phones can wreck our attention.I kinda feel like I don’t have to. We all know they're distracting, and it's a tough battle to win. Pretty much everything on that phone is designed to leave you wanting more. Instead, let's explore how we can use our phones to help us with attention. Planning apps, to-do lists, and reminders help us focus and break down tasks. Apps like Focus Dog and Forest motivate us to stay off our phones. Meditation apps like Headspace and Smiling Mind teach us to meditate. Note-taking, Pomodoro timing apps, and phone features like digital well-being settings enhance productivity and reduce distraction. Set alarms and timers for focused work without constantly checking the clock. Countdown timers can challenge you to finish tasks within a set timeframe. Embrace your phone as a tool for focus rather than a distraction.I just want to say one more thing about phones and attention. Please, please get off your phone while you’re driving. I totally get how easy it is to do. I promise you I’m not trying to preach or act like I’m innocent - I have totally done it myself, but truly - the people in your life need you to stay alive. Other people driving or walking on the roads need to stay alive for their people. So keep your attention on your driving and not your phone. Distracted driving can be more devastating than you could ever imagine.Okay, so let’s move on to debunking that multitasking myth. I’m the bearer of bad news for those of you who self-identify as multitaskers. You’re actually switch-taskers. We know you can’t actually do two things at once and quickly switching back and forth between things may SEEM like multitasking but it’s actually still switch tasking. Although, I have to say that when my kids were little, I think I might have actually been able to multitask - somehow I could open a yogurt smoothie bottle for my daughter and answer the never-ending “why” questions she was asking me while cooking dinner and cleaning off the counter and adding new socks for her little brother to the mental list of things I had to get at the store and also wondering when I had last washed my hair. Can anyone relate? Okay, so other than parents of young children, no one is truly multitasking. Every time we break from a task to switch to a new one, we lose focus, which, as we know, slows us down or causes us to miss stuff or make mistakes. Here’s a little test you can try to see this in action. I learned this from Dan Crenshaw, whose YouTube video is linked in the show notes. Okay, so You’re going to pause me and do two things: one, get a pen and paper and two, open the stopwatch on your phone. Then, come back and I’ll tell you what to do next. See, I’m breaking down the task into smaller steps! Practicing what I preach, baby. Okay, hit pause now and come back when you’re ready. Yay! You’re back! Okay, hopefully you’ve got your pen, paper and timer ready. Alright, you’re going to pause me again and write the alphabet down on your paper. Then, below that, write the numbers 1 through 26 under each corresponding letter. So, when you’re done, you’ll have two horizontal lines - one with the alphabet and one with numbers 1 - 26. Be sure to time yourself doing it, okay? Alright, go do it, I’ll wait again. Okay, yay, you came back again! Okay, now you’re going to do the same thing again but this time you’re going to write A and then 1, B and then 2, C and then 3, D and then 4 and so on. So the result will look the same - a line of the alphabet with a line of numbers under it, but you’ll be switching back and forth between the letters and corresponding numbers. Got it? Okay, do it now and don’t forget to time yourself again cuz otherwise this is just a big waste of time. Welcome back! So unless you’re magical or a parent of small children, your second time should be longer than the first time. You may have even made or almost made some errors while you were doing it. My point is, if you can, try to work on one, just one, thing at a time. You’ll hopefully find it easier to focus, get more done, feel less tired when you’re done working, and make less errors. Granted, if you’ve been really embracing the multitasking life, you’ll likely find it challenging to drop this habit. But, give it a shot! You may find you need to use strategies to support this - maybe use a timer to keep you on task, use one of those focusing apps for your phone, or if you meet virtually, try keeping your camera on so you can’t sneak off and send an email during a meeting. It can also be motivating to keep track of how you feel when you don’t multitask - are you noticing any improvements or benefits? Check out the show notes for more ideas on beating multitasking!Okay, so hopefully you’re still with me and I haven’t lost your attention yet! And yay for you because you’ve made it to the end of this episode! I hope it was not too boring and you were able to learn something new. There are a ton more things about attention I could have written about but frankly, I was getting a little bored of this topic myself and was losing my own attention, so that’s our show for today! Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen! Please share this episode with anyone who might find it useful which is probably everybody. We’re so grateful to everyone who has shared Focus Forward! Word of mouth keeps us alive. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Please subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com slash podcast. We’ve got some super special stuff coming up for our newsletter subscribers, so get your name on that list so you can find out what we’re up to. Our patient and kind editor and producer is Sean Potts and our brilliant content marketer is Justice Abbott. Thanks for listening and I wish you all a healthy and happy new year. Oh, and it’s guy wire, in case you were wondering. A guy is a rope, cable or cord used to steady, guide or secure. And a muckraker describes a journalist who worked to search for and expose real or alleged corruption, scandal, or the like, especially in politics. Roosevelt used the term as an insult to these writers in a speech in 1906. Hahaha, aren’t you glad you paid attention until the end of this episode??

Well, we are almost at the end of the year. Happy New Year! Oh, you guys Thank you all so much for listening along in 2023. I was feeling a little emotional writing this intro. I’m so excited that we made it through another year. These podcast episodes are a lot of work and following through on stuff takes a lot of effort for me so I’m just really proud of myself for keeping up with it! And I have to say that what makes it easier for me is how much logistical, technical, and creative support my teammates Sean and Justice provide me and the continuous emotional support I get from them and other colleagues of mine at Beyond BookSmart - continually putting yourself out there as a podcast host is challenging so the emotional safety net they provide is well, I couldn’t do it without it. We are looking forward to next year and are excited about our upcoming episodes. If you have any topics you’d like me to explore, let me know! You can email me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. And if you’ve got some free time, could you quickly rate our podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? Hopefully 5 stars and if not, please let me know what we can improve! Today’s episode is a conversation I had with Dr. Marissa Edwards, Ariela Paulsen, and Karl Apelgren. These fantastic humans are all executive function coaches for Beyond BookSmart and If you’ve attended any of our free community education webinars, you may recognize their voices. I was so thrilled they agreed to join me for a Coach Q & A episode where we answer questions that were asked by people who registered for our webinars. Today we tackle managing negative thoughts, the impact of complex medical conditions on our executive functioning, the power of connection and having a strong support network, test anxiety, finding motivation when you’re not interested in something, especially classes, and how to succeed even if you have a teacher who is not supportive of your needs. I enjoyed talking with them so much that I really want to do this again. If you like this format, please let me know! As always, here are the shownotes from today's episode:Top 10 Ways for Overcoming Test Anxietyhttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/top-10-ways-for-overcoming-test-anxietyHow to Help Students with Anxiety: Top 8 Tips for Parents and Teachershttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/treating-student-anxiety-7-expert-tips-for-parentsWhen Students with Health Conditions Transition to Collegehttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/when-students-with-health-conditions-transition-to-collegeComplex Child - A Resource for Parents of Children Who Are Medically Complex or Have Disabilitieshttps://complexchild.org/Organization tips for caregivers of a child with complex medical needshttps://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/article?contentid=1148&language=englishExecutive Functions, Self-Regulation, and Chronic Pain: A Reviewhttps://academic.oup.com/abm/article/37/2/173/4565851How to Practice Self-Compassion: 8 Techniques and Tipshttps://positivepsychology.com/how-to-practice-self-compassion/Text a Friend… Right Now! - Happiness Lab Podcasthttps://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos/text-a-friend-right-nowContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching

A few months ago, I was in Ithaca for a family event and met Doug Kim, who shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager in their inclusive design team. Once he told me that his team develops technology in a way that supports neurodiversity and mental health, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. For anyone who doesn’t know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I am sharing I learned from their Inclusive Design Toolkit, (which you’ll hear more about later!) Inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation, which I just said, is the current, widely accepted definition, which was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products but can, and should be used when designing anything that many people will use. It’s more than just making a product accessible, it’s about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will use it. Another thing I learned from the toolkit that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that “An important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute, while inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive design should make a product more accessible, it’s not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards but truly usable and open to all.” Something else you’ll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning and adaptation based on user feedback. It’s a dynamic process aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. This aspect of inclusive design really resonated with me as an Executive Function coach and I hope it resonates with you, too! Microsoft's ResourcesMicrosoft Inclusive DesignOriginal ToolkitToolkit for CognitionInclusive AIFurther Reading:Mismatch: How Inclusion Shapes Design by Kat HolmesInclusive Design Toolkit and resources from University of Cambridge, UKInclusively - Support for employers and employeesHistory of Inclusive Design - Institute for Human Centered DesignInclusive Design LinkedIn Learning Course with Christina MallonContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Oh my goodness, it has been a month since we last dropped an episode. With Thanksgiving and the ADHD conference and all the other stuff that just goes on at work. We decided to skip one this past month. And before I get to this episode's topic, I wanted to share a little mini report on our experience attending the ADHD conference, which was held in Baltimore from November 29 to December 2, and I'm recording this a few days after returning home and I am still filled with excitement. It was so great. Sean Potts and Justice Abbott from our marketing team and Wendy Craven, who is one of our outreach specialists joined me at the conference. And it was truly an incredible experience for us all. We met some brilliant and interesting people who stopped by our booth in the exhibit hall and shared their stories with us. And we worked really hard to make our booth a fun place to stop by people lined up to spin our colorful prize wheel and learn about ADHD symptoms and some tools that you can use to manage the challenges that come along with those symptoms. And our ADHD Beyond BookSmart squishy brains in our teal blue company color were a major hit. And our you're not lazy bracelets and stickers resonated with many people. We also had a secret notes project where people could anonymously share their thoughts about their ADHD, and a community art wall that everyone could contribute to. We are all so grateful we were able to attend. And next year's conference is in Anaheim in southern Southern Cal in sunny Southern California. And it is absolutely an event worth attending. So start saving those pennies. Okay, so let's get into today's episode. Back in June, I was in Ithaca for a family event. And I met Doug Kim, who is a friend of my husband's cousin, Doug shared that he works for Microsoft as a principal design manager. And part of his job includes collaborating with the inclusive design team at Microsoft, and working on developing a guide for Inclusive Design for neurodiversity. And as soon as I heard those words come out of his mouth, I knew I had to get Doug on Focus Forward. And of course, because he's wonderful, he wholeheartedly said yes, and then came through with an even better offer, and brought two of his colleagues who are the leaders of inclusive design at Microsoft, Christina Mallon and Margaret Price. And for anyone who doesn't know about inclusive design, let me give you a little primer. Microsoft is a leader in the field and much of what I'm sharing I learned from their inclusive design Toolkit, which you're going to hear more about later. And inclusive design is a methodology that enables and draws on the full range of human diversity. Most importantly, this means including and learning from people with a range of perspectives. This explanation that I just said is the current widely accepted definition. And it was written by the inclusive design team at Microsoft. The concept of inclusive design was originally used for developing digital products, but can and should be used when designing anything that will be used by many people. It's more than just making a product accessible. It's about discovering and learning the variety of ways people might use a product from the people who will actually use it. An additional thing that I learned from the toolkit, and that helped me understand inclusive design more deeply is that an important distinction between accessibility and inclusive design is that accessibility is an attribute. Well, inclusive design is a method. While practicing inclusive designs should make a product more accessible. It's not a process for meeting all accessibility standards. Ideally, accessibility and inclusive design work together to make experiences that are not only compliant with standards, but truly usable, and open to all. And something else you'll hear my guests talk about is the collaborative and iterative nature of inclusive design. It involves continuous learning, and adaptation based on user feedback. It's a dynamic process, and it's aimed at creating products that truly meet the diverse needs of users. And this aspect of inclusive design really resonates with me as an executive function coach. As coaches we also collaborate with our clients to carefully and thoughtfully over time. Figure out the best way of using a tool to create a larger system that works to support the EF challenges the client experiences Okay, enough of me talking about this, let's get on to the show. Oh, and by the way, you get to hear Exhausted Hannah today, I tried to record Focus Forward episodes in the mornings when my attention and my brain are at their best. But due to some scheduling limitations, a couple of my guests are on the West Coast. I recorded this conversation after a long day of work. And apparently speaking coherently, in complete sentences was not my strong point at that time that day, so please have patience with me. As you wait for me to get my thoughts out of my head. Oh, boy. Okay, here we go.Hannah Choi 05:41All right. Well, hello, Microsoft people. Thank you so much for joining me on Focus Forward. Would you go around the room and introduce yourselves? Doug, do you want to start since you're the one that kind of connected us all?Doug Kim 06:01Sure, yeah. Well, my name is Doug Kim, and I'm a design manager at Microsoft. Part of my charter is to help support inclusive design. And a strong collaborator with Margaret. And Christina, were also on the podcast today. And we've been talking and working quite a bit over the, over the past couple of years on developing our developing our inclusive design toolkit, and especially developing better practices for designing for neurodiversity.Hannah Choi 06:34And Christina,Christina Mallon 06:37so I am Christina Mallon, I lead inclusive design at Microsoft, I joined about two years ago. I have dual paralysis and ADHD. So really excited to bring my lived experience into the conversation today. Hannah Choi 06:53Yeah, thank you. And Margaret. And last but not least, Margaret Price 06:57Hi, my name is Margaret. I joined Microsoft in 2014, as one of the founders of the inclusive design practice. I'm a strategist, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum. And so this is a topic that is near and dear to me.Hannah Choi 07:13So can you just tell me the story about how you, you know, got to where you are today, and, and you know, how this inclusive design became what it is, and just kind of how you got here.Margaret Price 07:28Back in 2014, the number of product groups at Microsoft were asking some pretty big, bold questions like, What is the future of interaction design? And what's missing from various design thinking methods today? And how can we think about embracing the full range of human diversity as we think about product making, from how we frame problems to how we solve them. And so a small team of people got together and created this practice called inclusive design at Microsoft, which is grounded in three principles of recognizing where there's exclusion today. Learning from diversity, and scaling, for figuring out how you can think about disability through the lens of permanent temporary and situational abilities. And recognizing that there's so much opportunity to learn from somebody who may be experiencing a permanent disability or anyone who's experienced a large range of exclusion. You might think about exclusion through the lens of disability, but also through the lens of socioeconomic status, gender identity and a number of other dimensions. And how do you bring people into the process who've been excluded. And what that means in product making is, of course, having diverse teams of people and championing that, but also thinking about how you recruit folks to come into the process as CO designers to actually bring equity into the process because, of course, what we make as a byproduct of how we make and so we started as a very small and scrappy team of people and ended up building education and capability for all of Microsoft and scaling that we wanted free, accessible resources for the world. So we actually ended up creating curricula that's now in over 60 universities around the world. And a number of companies have been inspired by the work that we've done to create their own inclusive design departments. And we've worked hard to, you know, create a number of experts there are incredible brilliant people all around Microsoft, who are experts in the space now who apply the inclusive design method into their own product groups. And so it's been, it's been a journey of trial and error and learning and testing from a number of diverse communities in Microsoft and outside of Microsoft. And it's certainly a subject that is near and dear to my heart and Doug's and Christina's.Hannah Choi 10:17That's great. Yeah, I love I love how that conversations are being had with people who, who truly know, the experience from because it's a lived experience, there's not, you know, there's not really sort of assumptions being made. Can you tell me a little bit about how you work with your co-creators and how you make that whole process? happen? And it sounds like it's pretty fantastic and successful.Christina Mallon 10:52Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to cover that. And Doug, let me know if you want to add on. So we believe and as Margaret just mentioned, it is integral that there is equity within product making. So our goal that Microsoft is to ensure that we are creating with people from marginalized communities, at the beginning of ideation, all the way to releasing for, you know, general release, and how we work with them is through either ERGs within our company, that has individuals from marginalized communities as a part of that erg and an erg as an employee resource group, or we work with teams or individuals with different lived experiences from being a part of a marginalized community outside and we pay them to ensure that they can provide feedback at multiple times within the product development process. And feel free to really join in as I know, we've been working hand in hand on this specifically in Azure.Doug Kim 12:04Yeah, you know, we're always looking for ways that we can collaborate with people who have experience and always always looking for ways to improve that and always ways to like, help, you know, the people on the inside, who are creating these products really, really, like, learn to empathize with what people are experiencing with their products, which is not easy. And it's, it's, it's not an easy process. And like, there were a lot of mistakes, I think, there were made, like, in the early days, people were just sort of building awareness about disability and accessibility, you know, people would try to just like, whatever, try to use a screen reader or something and say, oh, okay, I got it, right? Well, you know, you don't, right, because if you have the luxury of turning off the screen reader after 15 minutes, then you have no idea what it's like to not be able to do that. And so this is a lesson that we try to like, you know, drill into all the folks that we work with, in terms of like bringing them along on this process. You know, there's this, this is kind of like widely adopted phrase principle, you know, nothing for us without us. And so we really try to stick to that principle, like, involve people very deeply in the design process, who represent the audiences we're trying to expand our capabilities to include, and Sen. And we just really feel like you cannot practice inclusive design. Without that step. You know, you can't make assumptions because, you know, I guarantee if you're making assumptions without that input, they're going to be wrong. Yeah.Christina Mallon 13:40Yeah. And then Microsoft, we only consider products that are inclusive are ones that are co designed with communities. Because, you know, we believe that it is key to product success,Hannah Choi 13:54Right. So is, which would you say that, that like, how, how much does the idea of inclusive design come up in across to Microsoft as a whole? Like, is it it, would you say it's a conversation and and a viewpoint that the entire company has or is it is it more specific to certain products?Christina Mallon 14:26 Yeah, I mean, our mission is to create you know, tools, so that every single customer and enterprise customer and person on this earth can use it to reach their dreams and the company is bought into inclusive design. There are, you know, certain parts of the company where I feel like it was a design is used more. I definitely you know, if you have champions like Margaret, and Doug and they are specific In organizations, we see a lot of inclusive design. There are others where there isn't a strong champ of inclusive design, that less inclusive design happens.Hannah Choi 15:12And I suppose that's found, I mean, it's huge company.Christina Mallon 15:14So over 200,000 people, yeah.Doug Kim 15:19You know, it doesn't matter you can, you can be in a company of 200,000, or a company have like three things, you're trying to change behavior, it's always interesting what you have to, like, think about, right and plan for and strategize. So I think our situation is different. Obviously, we're at one of the biggest companies in the world. But like, you could be at a company of six and face like a similar set of challenges, and convincing people to work this way, developing expertise, you know, that's what the toolkit is about, just because we want to be able to like, like, empower the whole ecosystem, and give folks like yourself, like a set of tools that kind of like, normalizes the idea of inclusivity, it doesn't make it like an oddball thing that you only do, or think about, you know, once in a while, when you have the times likeHannah Choi 16:12that one person or something. Christina Mallon 16:14First original toolkit, over 2 million people have downloaded and used, we just launched the inclusive design for cognition, which we like to call Inclusive Design for Brain Stuff. And that launched it and we've seen a massive amount of users using it. But really, the Inclusive Design original toolkit is what led the way.Hannah Choi 16:38Yeah, I really love that. Something that I am, one of the goals of this podcast is to increase conversations about, you know, like, neurodivergent brains and how, and how, like, Let's break the stigma. And so I really love that you guys addressed that. saw that as a as a separate, not a separate, I don't want to say separate but like sight as its as its own area that needed attention. And that, and that needed that recognition and guidance for people who might not know what, you know, what people are experiencing. So I really love that that is that that is out? Are you seeing more and more people?Christina Mallon 17:28Now we're definitely a huge demand, Margaret, and Doug, get some original work around cognition. And as I took in the new role about, you know, two years ago, and change, we said, Okay, this work is so amazing. How do we get this in a more formalized toolkit? Because there is such a demand, I'm constantly getting LinkedIn messages, emails and say, Hey, how are you designing for people who have trouble focusing or making decisions or communicating? And that's why I reached out to both Doug and Margaret, when I joined to say, hey, can we build upon this work, and they really were, let's do it and signed up. And I really appreciate the partnership, because, you know, we're seeing a lot of usage of the toolkit, and also seeing it reflected and used by product makers at Microsoft and externally.Hannah Choi 18:25And I really love how the way that you created, it makes it I felt like, as I read it as a I don't, you know, I don't create products, but I do create, I do help my clients create, you know, systems that work well for them. And I really loved how it, I felt like it really encourages the reader from whatever viewpoint they're coming from, to consider what they need, and, and to consider how to ask for what they need. And here are some possible ideas and it just the way that you presented it is just really accessible. And it's kind of fun. And, you know, like the graphics are really fun. And I know that's just kind of like little stuff, but as a consumer, it made a difference for me when I was engaging with it. So anyone listening who hasn't checked out the Inclusive Design toolkits from Microsoft, I really highly recommend checking them out a lot of really good stuff in thereDoug Kim 19:35Inclusive dot Microsoft dot design, that's the website that they're on. Thank you, we promote and that's where like the original toolkit is there's a bunch of videos and guidance PDFs of what the new stuff on there and you know examples of how you know we've we've built these into products is these concepts.Hannah Choi 19:58So when you were creating them, how do you do come up with and kind of incorporate the five types of, of cognitive demands? Which for me are executive function skills, learning focus, decision making recall and communication. So I was just wondering like, how did you decide on those? Well,Doug Kim 20:23were you talking to Margaret? Oh, it's okay. Go ahead. No, you start.Margaret Price 20:29So it started with a pretty comprehensive, lit review. So looking at a lot of existing information from different fields of study, from psychology to cognitive science, to think about help us think about how do we frame this space? This is a really complex space. So how should we think about it? So we started with a lit review, then conducted hundreds of interviews with folks all around the world over a span of maybe two and a half years and 2015 2016. A lot of folks in academia to really deeply understand how can we think about perception, I can think about sensing and thinking, what are all of the different ways we could frame this? What are all the possibilities, and then we apply the inclusive design method to it, we brought in a lot of CO creators, we mapped a number of ways we could think about it, we started mapping the various dimensions. And actually, there's many, many, many more than our initial few. We prioritize these few based on the business opportunity for Microsoft, the opportunity for the world to have stronger impact on the need that we saw from people. And so all of this is grounded in evidence based research. And was prioritized based on where we saw the largest need in our communities.Doug Kim 21:59Yeah, and so like, I work on Azure, which is our, you know, enterprise oriented cloud services offering. And we did a lot of studies for how Azure works, or does not work for neurodivergent users. And so a lot of the things that we pulled out of those studies kind of found its way into the guidance that there's there in the toolkit, like decision making in Azure is, is kind of a huge deal like and you have to retain a lot of information to be able to effectively make effective decisions you have like dozens or hundreds of options to choose from to get a particular result that you're looking for. And so we wanted to kind of like abstract out some of these to the like, the cognitive types of functions that are at play here, and how we do or do not support them. So I think a lot of the some of the impetus to choose these came from, you know, the research that Margaret was referencing, but also kind of the experience of our users who are saying, like, this is where if I make the wrong move, I could be in big trouble. You know, you could write $1,000, as opposed to nothing. Yeah. So you hear that? And you go, Oh, okay, I get it. That's a tough call. Yeah.Hannah Choi 23:27Yeah. And if you can't confidently make those decisions, then you're going to be more stressed, which is going to impact your ability to use your executive function skills. Well, which is going to set you up for making more mistakes. So yeah, and that just shows you how important it is to consider these things for people who do not have a, you know, you know, that like don't have ADHD or don't, you know, have mental health struggles or whatever, you know, is impacting someone's someone at work, it's so important to consider that. And I love how you think about that scalability. I have how, you know, like, this thing, yes, it addresses a need here that everybody can actually use it and benefit from it.Doug Kim 24:19So I'm curious like for you, okay, so you're an executive functioning coach, very fascinating to learn how this kind of affects your work. Like one of the issues that came up for us was just consequences. Right? Am I aware when I'm going through a given experience, what the consequences of my decisions are? And if not, how do I move forward? So is that something that comes up for you like what, what are your clients telling you about consequences and the stuff that they need to be able to, like understand and move forward make decisions? You know, when the consequences are ambiguous? Hannah Choi 24:55Yeah, it's huge. And so much so much that comes out is confidence, the confidence to make any decision that they're making? And many of the people that I've worked with, have have spent their life feeling like they've been doing it wrong all along. And, and so to come to a space where question like, you know, like, I'm asking them questions like, what does work for you? What doesn't work for you? What have been the consequences of your actions in the past? And, you know, and and what do you kind of envision for yourself in the future? It's? Yeah, not really sure where I'm going with this. You're really, really, really, so much of what I do just real, I can really relate to the work that you guys have done in addressing. Yeah, the potential consequences that other people have to have in their life and the business decisions that they're making or whatever. Doug Kim 25:58Yeah, yeah, I think it goes back to sort of like, basically understand, like, what the, one of the one of the key concepts in the toolkit is trying to try to understand what the cognitive load is, like, how much demand are you putting on the on the user? And why and where does it come into your experience? Right? And so these are, the aspects of the dimension is how much you're asking them to remember how much you are you expecting them to project in terms of the the consequences of their decisions, I want you you're expecting them to be able to act on their own versus in collaboration with their teammates, or co workers. And I think these are normally things that we don't really discuss in depth, we're just sort of like build products, assuming that a person is acting alone, acting independently, and has all the tools that they need to be able to say, make an informed decision. And so, I mean, that's not totally true. I'm being a little bit. I'm exaggerating a little bit, just to make the point. But I think that one of the points of the toolkit is to say, don't make assumptions here, options about what your customer does or doesn't know or what they're expecting, as they're moving through an experience. Build it in a way so you understand what you're asking of your customers, you and understand the level of demand that you're placing on them to do anything, because every experience does that. Right. There's something that it's going to ask of you, right to say, like, if you jump into a car, like there's a presumption that you understand how to operate it, because you've passed the test, at some point, we're seeing all that stuff, the minute you turn on the ignition, right, there's an assumption that you know that when you press the brake, that the car is going to stop. So every, every experience does that to a certain extent. But not all product traders measure that, and weigh that and say, what actually, where are we assuming before somebody even, you know, starts the car? Margaret Price 28:10Well, I love what you're saying. And to build on it, I think it's a really great set of points that leads to the recognition. You know, there's a lot I mentioned, at the beginning of the call, I have ADHD, and I'm on the spectrum, and there's a lot of self-blame that can happen. What's wrong with me? Why can I use those sorts of thoughts? And I think that's where, you know, the worlds colliding and unlikely between what we do and a lot of what you do, which is, you know, as Doug mentioned, asking, what are the cognitive demands? And where are the mismatches between what's needed from the person and what the product is providing? And recognizing that it's not your fault. It's this product’s fault. Yeah, this is not built in a way that's going to serve you. Well. And this is not about you. This is about the product not being built. Good enough.Hannah Choi 29:03Yes. Yes. And that yeah, that's, that's many conversations that I have with my clients is being like, there's nothing wrong with you. This is how your brain works. And this and unfortunately, it is not the system, the world that we are in is not, you know, necessarily designed for that.Doug Kim 29:25Well, I think that's especially true with like, well, I don't know, I don't want to get into kind of a waiting thing. But like, you see, that was neurodivergent. Conditions like so commonly, like I think societally, like in this is true, I think, pretty much across the globe, we're like conditioned to say, put the onus on the person with that condition to adapt. Yep. It's an experience that wasn't built for them. And, you know, that's sort of like one of the key premises of the toolkit and this extension of the toolkit. deals with cognition, which is that no, like, that's, it's not you, it's us. It's not, it's not you, like, if it doesn't work for you, then that's a problem with a product, right? It's a problem with the environment or the world that were created, never expecting you to participate in. Like, if it doesn't work for you, then we need to adapt it, we need to come up with systems that normalize you to an extent that allows you to function as effectively or better than anybody else who's using a product. And, like, puts the onus on us as periodic creators, to, to adapt to you as opposed to the other way around. And the fact that our systems up until, you know, very recently, and like without this sort of understanding of how things work could work potentially a lot better for our interviewers. And folks. It's, it's, you know, it just hasn't been built that way. And, you know, I think our mission, like the three of us together, and now you and everybody else who's like involved in this inclusive design process, is is to upend that expectation, and say, it's the onus on people who are creating products. You know, I mean, you create a product, this podcast is a product, right. And it could be applied to anything that anybody, you know, makes,Christina Mallon 31:25I think, people are starting to see this, you see the World Health Organization, how they define disability as a mismatch between a person and a design. And I think that is really key because, again, as a disabled person, I'm told, okay, you need to figure out how to do this or fix this solution. Yeah, and it's really taxing. And this is something that's common in marginalized communities.Hannah Choi 31:54Yes. Yes. Yeah, I was just doing some research on, on advocating for yourself at work. And, and many of the articles that I read, said, unfortunately, it is on you, it will, in most situations, it will be on you to educate your employer, on what how to, you know, meet your needs. And so, it's, and that's, that's with any marginalized community, marginalized community, right. It's it, unfortunately, at this point, it is, it is on that group to educate everyone else. This inclusive design, the fact that Microsoft is embracing this so much shows us that that, like, that's a good role model. Do you think that within I mean, I guess you guys can only speak for the departments with it to work. But would you say that within it, or in your experience? Like, Christina, if you need something? Do you feel like you're, it is easy for you to advocate for yourself? Do you feel like that inclusive design concept spreads to the advocacy part? And for Costco? Yes,Christina Mallon 33:14I'm definitely empowered to implement inclusive design, and that the entire company has a pretty good understanding the importance of it. But the current state of the economy, with our focus on AI, there's definitely more begging that needs to get done for resources around it. And I think, you know, that's why people in positions of power really need to advocate for this. And that's why when I started, Doug, and Margaret, could empathize with me. And were able to provide, you know, their resources to help create the inclusive design for cognition toolkit.Hannah Choi 33:58And, and Doug and Margaret would like, where did where did your strength in, in, in your knowledge come from? Was that just from your experiencing your experience of creating this inclusive design? Or is that something that you have naturally already felt before you got into that?Doug Kim 34:19Everything I know comes from Margaret.Hannah Choi 34:24Margaret, you're amazing.Margaret Price 34:28You're all amazing. Yeah,Christina Mallon 34:30we're all amazingMargaret Price 34:32 lots of listening and learning. And I as a generalist strategist, I like to learn there's so many brilliant leaders in this space outside of Microsoft, who pioneered inclusive design long before Microsoft got in the business. And so a lot of listening and learning to brilliant folks. And we can, you know, give you links For show notes too. Yeah,Hannah Choi 34:58Thank you, I was just gonna say thatMargaret Price 35:01A lot of listening, a lot of learning a lot of synthesizing just a ton of information. And wanting to communicate it in ways, as you mentioned earlier that are simple for anybody to understand. And connecting dots that might seem not connectable, I have a background in research as well. And so I love listening and learning and connecting dots that might seem like they can't connect. And I think, you know, to your question earlier about advocating for ourselves in the workplace, I think, for me, a lot of it came from not as much inclusive design as the work on myself. And I think you do a lot of this with folks that you coach, probably, but really becoming, you know, keenly self aware about my needs, and how to communicate them and boundaries and how to communicate them. And recognizing that communicating well. And communicating in a way that's going to serve me is the absolute best thing that I can do, rather than ignoring or suppressing what I need.Hannah Choi 36:07Yeah, and so much of advice, like going back to the idea of how you have to, you know, it is on you as a person to advocate for yourself, and you might end up having to educate your employer. But a big part of that self advocacy is, you know, like, knowing yourself, and knowing what your boundaries are and right, like you said, like learning how to, how to ask for that. And yeah, that is, it's a lot of what I do. Yeah. And it's so funny, because I just, just over the past year, went through the whole ADHD diagnosis and answered all these life questions that I've had about myself for a very long time. And, and, you know, working at beyond booksmart, it was, it was like, not a thing, and not a big deal. It was, you know, it wasn't like I had to decide whether I was going to disclose and, and, you know, there were already so many systems built into, you know, built into how we do things at beyond booksmart. Because, because we are in the business of supporting people with executive function challenges. So I feel very lucky that I work at a company where I am just automatically supported, and that there are lots of people within the company who, you know, also, like, have shared needs or similar needs, or even different needs. And so a lot of our training materials are presented in many different formats. And, you know, there's, there's many different ways to interact and many different choices that you can make whatever works the best for you. And I know, that's not how it is that many places. And so I, I really hope that these kinds of conversations continue to happen that companies like Microsoft, and other I mean, you guys almost have like a, an I don't know, if you feel this way, but as a very large company, like you have a really big opportunity to, you know, to be a voice for this. I, you know, I like I kind of feel that way, there's a podcast host of like, well, I don't really have a lot of power, but I have a little bit of power, and I'm going to try to use it. So do you. Do you feel that? Do you feel like that responsibility? Christina Mallon 38:18Yeah, I mean, I took my job six months pregnant with my first child, which is kind of crazy. But I knew the power that Microsoft has to empower people like be to be able to achieve their dreams. And I already knew that the foundation has been set by people like Doug and Margaret. So it would come into a very inclusive company.Doug Kim 38:48Well, I would say that, you know, something that, like kind of struck me as you were talking when I was was like the, the idea that you have power, and I think everybody has power. And a lot of us have this tendency to like even regardless of what position we're in, to kind of under estimate what that what that power is. And so I think if you're in this, you care about this space, which if you made it this far into this episode, you obviously do. You can exercise your power on one on one, right, you can help shape conversation and you can help normalize things. If you're more of like from representing the ally ship side of things, you can learn more, you can reduce the burden on your colleagues or whoever it is to have to advocate for themselves. You can absorb information like our toolkit, but any of the other like, you know, amazing resources that are that there are out there to help, you know, again, create this expectation. ation of inclusion as a as a regular and standard practice. So there we're constantly stretching ourselves to be more inclusive and to include more audiences that haven't been included to this point. So it could be a one person company, it could be two people working together to see, you know, examine how they operate, could be a soccer club could be whatever a classroom. I don't think that work ever ends. But it's like, I think we found that it's joyful work, you know, it's inspiring work. Learn more about human human capability, and what you can do to enable and empower that. So, you know, it's also fun.Hannah Choi 40:48What creative work, problem solving, and something that you said in the beginning, just connected me back to what you were just saying. And you said, I think Margaret, it might have been you, you said, you asked people a lot of questions, the CO creators that you worked with. And then Doug, you said, you made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, I can't remember exactly who said what, but but I think that's part of that power is not being afraid to ask the questions, and not being afraid to make the mistakes. And, and that is so scary for people, especially when you're asking questions about something that you don't really know a lot about. Doug Kim 41:29So yeah, you know, sort of, you're bringing into mind this, or like, you know, that era that Margaret was referring to earlier, back 2014, 2015. You know, I just started, like, getting used to interviewing people with disabilities. And I was interviewing this woman who has a low vision person who used like, an extreme amount of magnification, and a third party tool to be able to magnify her, um, screens to something like 400 person, and I was watching her work and just kind of like, making little comments. And at one point, the, the screen magnification tool she was using just crashed and quit. And, you know, I was looking at her and I said, and I just kind of chalk. Well, I said, oh, shoot, like, it's a crash. Let's, let's reboot that out. And she just looks at me, she goes, Why are you laughing? And I said, Oh, well, it's just the like, a little glitchy thing. And she just said, you know, it's not a glitch. When this happens. It is so hard for me to get this back. And my livelihood, because she was an independent business person, right, who worked on her own. She said, You know, my livelihood could be drastically affected. Like every time this happens, and you know, Margaret's done a lot of research, too with customers who have said a lot of the same things around things like, you know, improperly coated, or created notifications and interruptions. There's a lot of science around that, too. But at the time, I was like, oh, boy, I just got a big lesson. Yeah. And understanding, you know, how to empathize with what people are experiencing. Yeah, so I view that as kind of, like, you know, a mistake on my part, in terms of how I reacted to what she was experiencing at the time. But something that has, like, continued to, like, help me understand how to move forward, and how to understand how to work with folks with disabilities, or with anybody really, anybody? Yeah, developing more like tools for empathy and understanding and how to keep you know, going deeper into this work. So those are, those are really helpful. Actually, I still pretty much think that, you know, like, if she remembers that at all, it's quite some time. Now, she probably didn't think much of me. But yeah, she's been enormously helpful. Just that one episode, to you know, whatever progress I've made my journey along this path.Hannah Choi 44:05Yeah, and going back to that power, I mean, that shows like the power of, of experiences for people, we, you know, we never know the impact that we might have on somebody. And so you guys probably don't even see the the impact that your work has, has had on, on everybody.Christina Mallon 44:25We get some nice notes here and there. But I think having people with disabilities within the company is super important. Because you're able to do these really quick empathy sessions and you can actually see oh man, this really does affect when the small design changes made. When we look at power and power dynamics, most people that are making decisions sit in an area where they have lots of power, they are white, they are male, they're educated. They speak English, upper middle class live in, you know, the states or the UK. And it is so important to have diversity within the company so they can influence these power makers or become one of the power people. And Microsoft does a good job of that, and really looking at hiring and trying to increase the exposure to people with disabilities. But you know, here's the thing, everyone's gonna make a mistake, I make mistakes about disability, and I'm disabled myself. So it's always a learning experience. And if people treat it as a learning experience, and don't get scared to even interact with someone that disability, life will be better. Yes,Hannah Choi 45:42I worked for a few years in the, in the students in the, like Disability Resource Center at a community college. And, and I just loved it, that diversity of employees within that, within that office, and then the students that came in, it was, it was I made a ton of mistakes, I made a ton of mistakes. And I learned so much. And it was, it was just such an amazing experience. So grateful for it. Yeah, I we're actually, I'm right in the middle of preparing for a webinar, we do these community education webinars, and we have one coming up a week from today. And it's about, it's about how to manage like perceived failure. And, and we're talking a lot about how, like, exactly that what you said, Doug, like that, that felt like a mistake, but you are still learning from it years later. And how how when you can change your viewpoint from seeing it as a mistake, and something to trip you up and stop you and switch it to see us something as that we can learn from and grow from. And you can separate a little bit separate, like your ego from it and and then become more, you know, just more aware and more understanding.Doug Kim 47:10Well, you know, yeah, and I think that, like, if you're coming from a position of ally ship, again, that you should expect to encounter a road where you have setbacks and you take on risks, you know, in, in your journey to like, you know, help serve that community or even understand more about that community, you you're part of the goal, I think of ally ship is to alleviate risk from other people and put it on yourself. And some of that risk is, you know, involved in in making mistakes. I mean, if I look at whatever the embarrassment that I felt in that moment that I was talking about, it's not much compared to what the person that I was trying to understand from past experience every day, every time that you know, magnifier crashes. And so like, if a second if I can take one second to have an embarrassing moment, and help, you know, ultimately create a better system for her, then that's really not much of a risk. But it is, it is, like a lot of people like think about, like a potential misstep like that as a huge risk. In some ways it is. It's embarrassing. It's not fun. But it's what you're doing is you're you're you're taking some like emotional discomfort, you know, or the possibility of emotional discomfort, you know, off somebody else's plate and putting it onto yours. That's a very that's, that's an expected and also a that's an outcome. You know, you should you should expect to have.Hannah Choi 48:54My favorite quote, ever is by Susan David, who's a psychologist, and she said, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life. And I just love that so much.Margaret Price 49:08Oh, that's beautiful. I love Susan David.Hannah Choi 49:10I know I love her. She's so great.Margaret Price 51:21Delightful. Well, thank you so much for having us on. Because yeah, speaking of executive executive functioning skills, flexibility is part of that and my, and my rigid schedule, I am gonna have to hop. But really, it was such a delight. Meeting you, Hannah, and speaking with you, and of course, talking with two people that I just adore, Christina and Doug. So thank you for having us on and for discussing this important topic.Hannah Choi 51:52And that's our show for today. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to listen and learn about inclusive design and for having some patience with me. You can find links to lots of inclusive design resources in the show notes, and please share this episode with your family or your friends who might help it find it useful. If you have questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com and please subscribe to focus forward on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Our very patient editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our thoughtful and creative content marketer is justice Abbott extra special thanks to Doug who brought Christina and Margaret onto the show with me and a million thank yous to the people at beyond booksmart who helped make our attendance at the ADHD conference possible. Thanks for listening

For many people (especially those with Executive Function challenges), managing money can be really stressful. If you can relate to this challenge and are thinking of sending a kid off to college, then learning how to plan your finances accordingly is something that’s worth being really proactive about. According to the Education Data Initiative, average tuition and fee rates have increased 130% since 1990 - and that’s after adjusting for inflation (yikes!) So, what can we do? Is there a way to approach saving for college that is less stressful and more effective than just wingin’ it or waiting till the last minute? Luckily, today’s guest is Shannon Vasconcelos, the Director of College Finance for Bright Horizons College Coach, and she joined me to discuss saving for college in a very executive function-friendly manner. In other words, she was the perfect expert I needed for this topic. Listen to learn from this college finance expert how you can approach this new exciting yet expensive chapter well prepared! Show notes: Bright Horizon’s College Coachwww.getintocollege.comGetting In: A College Coach Conversationhttps://getintocollege.com/Resources/Getting-In-PodcastYou Need a Budget (Hannah’s favorite budgeting tool)www.ynab.comSaving For Collegehttps://www.savingforcollege.com/Roth IRA and 529 Explainedhttps://www.savingforcollege.com/article/which-is-best-529-college-savings-plan-or-roth-iraMaking College Affordable: 5 Tips for Securing Scholarshipshttps://www.beyondbooksmart.com/executive-functioning-strategies-blog/making-college-affordable-5-tips-for-securing-scholarshipsContact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So this episode is about saving money for college or whatever post high school plans you or your child might have. And for many people, especially those with EF challenges, managing money can be really stressful. And because college is very expensive, it's something that is good to be really proactive about. Starting to save early is what we would do in a perfect world. Actually, in a perfect world college just wouldn't be so expensive, and we'd all have the means to pay for it without worrying about how we're going to do that. Unfortunately, this is not our reality. Today's guest, Shannon Vasconcelos, who is the Director of College finance for Bright Horizons College Coach told me that going to college is a lot more expensive than it was 30 years ago, I did a little research and according to the Education Data Initiative, since 1990, average tuition and fee rates have increased 130% And that is after adjusting for inflation. That's crazy. So what can we do? Is there a way to approach saving for college that is less stressful and more effective than just winging it or waiting until the last minute. Luckily, Shannon approaches saving for college in a very executive function friendly manner. So, she was just the expert I needed for this topic. We focused on college savings as college does end up being the most expensive option that people choose to do after high school. But even if you or your child have other plans, many of the lessons and tips about saving that she shares are still applicable. I met Shannon through my experience being a guest on Bright Horizons podcast called "Getting In: A College Coach Conversation". Their expert hosts and guests have created an absolute wealth of information about pretty much every aspect of the college admissions process. Although every week they come out with a new episode. So apparently, there's more to learn. I was so thrilled to have Shannon share her knowledge on Focus Forward. So listen to learn more from this college finance expert. Now on to the show. All right. Well, thanks so much for joining me, this is gonna be fun. Talking about money is a little stressful for me, I find I find finances stressful. So I'm actually really looking forward to this. I've got kids that are in sixth and ninth grade. So we are definitely the audience for this episode. Good. Would you introduce yourself for our listeners?Shannon Vasconcelos 03:02My name is Shannon Vasconcelos. And I am Director of College Finance for Bright Horizons College Coach. We are a company that helps families prepare for college and all different ways from saving to college through the college application process. And how to get through the those college payments.Hannah Choi 03:24Yeah, that's great. And I got to be on your podcast. A few months back, I was talking about college and how to find success in college if you're going to college with some executive function challenges. So that was really fun. I really enjoyed that.Shannon Vasconcelos 03:39Yeah, we really loved having you.Hannah Choi 03:43I'm so happy you're here today. So one thing that, that we talked about before we met and that I and then I really wanted to bring up again is that though we will be talking a lot today about saving for college. Some kids don't go to college and and that's great for those kids, if that's not their path. And but as parents, we can still, you know, think about their future and maybe there is something else we can be saving for for them. And so I hope that any listeners whose children choose not to go to college can still benefit from some of the some of the content that we talked about today. So I just want to acknowledge that different paths that they follow. And for sure, andShannon Vasconcelos 04:31I would say college tends to be the most expensive path week. And so I think if you're not sure if college is in your child's future, I always feel like it's better to over prepare than under prepare. If it's a possibility. We want to think about saving for college, but that sort of "traditional" - I'll put traditional in air quotes. There always been a lot of different paths, but that the traditional four year path, college path, kind of residential university, it's not for everyone. And there are lots of other kinds of educational options, short term certificate programs and trade schools. And, you know, even starting your own business, maybe maybe your child has that entrepreneurial spirit, they need a little bit of seed money, and you want to prepare for that. So I think there's lots of reasons to be saving for your child's future, college tends to be the most expensive one we think of and one that you want to be prepared for if it's a possibility. But if you save it all, I think there's multiple uses that that that money could potentially be put to in the future.Hannah Choi 05:49So like, why why should we see why should we be thinking ahead and preparing other than the obvious that, like you just said, it's very expensive?06:00Yeah, I think that really is, is the biggest driving factor that college is such a huge expense and much more expensive than when you are i Hannah, we're going to college or certainly when parents were probably went to college, if the if they went to college college costs have been increasing at quite a rate more than you know, the general inflation rate in the economy over the last, you know, 20 3040 years, actually, since 1990, college costs have doubled. Wow. So it's quite an expense, and one that you want to be prepared for, you know, there are different ways to pay for college. And certainly one that's gotten a lot of attention lately is student loans. Student loans are of course an option to help you pay for college. But of course, when you borrow student loans, they charge you interest you save, you're the one that's occurring, the interest. So, you know, if you're a parent thinking about let the interest work for you, rather than against you, if you do the math on it. saving for college, as opposed to borrowing for college can actually cut your college costs in half. When you think about all of that interest, so it's really expensive, it's getting more expensive, and preparing for it will, will help I think, will help your stress levels. Yeah, you have a chunk of change, set aside for college. And it will actually having that chunk of change set aside will, in the end reduce your college costs as opposed to borrowing. And I should also I think throw out there. Sometimes people are worried about saving for college because they think it will cost them college financial aid and I save for college, they won't give me financial aid. That is just not the case, your savings does feed into the financial aid calculations. But to a very small extent, that's good to know, the way the financial aid formula works is it's mostly driven by the family's income, not their assets, not their savings. And so if we want to just put numbers to it, so folks understand in the financial aid formula, you're the formula expects you to contribute something like 5% of your assets to college each year. Okay? Meaning so if you saved $10,000, for college, that might cost you $500 in financial aid eligibility, though, you're still up by 9500, you could you know, that helps you pay for college, much, much more than the loss of financial aid hurts, I would encourage everybody who has the means and I'm not talking about a huge amount of means, you know, every little bit helps to start saving, it'll just make your life easier in the end.Hannah Choi 09:08And I love that you pointed out that it reduces stress because as our listeners know, if they've been listening for a while they've heard me talk about how stress really, really impacts our ability to access our executive function skills, which as we'll explore today, you really do need to access those if you're going to be planning and prioritizing and managing and organizing. Or all of your finances for the future. So 100% Yeah, yeah, great. So what do you think stops people from saving I mean, other than what you just mentioned, do you think that people's biggest reason for not saving Yeah,Shannon Vasconcelos 09:50I think so that it's the whole prospect is just intimidating. And yeah, it you know, it's this the stress of it, but like you say that It can just make that executive functioning that's required just really difficult. And I mean, this is part of the stress just that the numbers are so overwhelming and it's intimidating to think they can get into a headspace. Well, it's impossible to save that much. So they just don't try that. That's the worst thing you can do to let yourself get to the space of I'm so overwhelmed. I'm not even going to try.Hannah Choi 10:34Yeah, right. So doing a little exploration and learning. As we know, knowledge is power. So as doing maybe listening today to today's episode, and, and taking that first step to figure out how can I do this in the least overwhelming way? And yeah, I am a classic example of that. No, I don't like math. So I have like a visceral reaction to anything that has to do with numbers. Even conceptually, I don't like thinking. So. So this, I'm really looking forward to learning this today. SoShannon Vasconcelos 11:10yeah, and I think what I tend to recommend for folks who are just feeling overwhelmed that so much, I'll never be able to do it. I don't know how to approach this. I always recommend breaking the process that this sort of big, overwhelming process of saving for college, break it down into manageable steps.Hannah Choi 11:32Yes. Are you looking for a job as an executive function coach?Shannon Vasconcelos 11:40I've gotta say, for my kids college, that's that side hustle, maybe?Hannah Choi 11:47Yeah, I mean, that's, that's pretty much my go to strategy for myself. And for any of my clients, or anyone who is asking like, this feels really big and scary. What should I do? And you're right, break it down.Shannon Vasconcelos 12:00Yeah. And in my mind, how I organize it. In my mind, I think there are forced steps for basic questions to ask yourself, once you've made the decision I'm going to save for college. So that's the first first hurdle to get, I'm going to do it and you do that, then I think there's four questions to ask yourself to, to bring this big goal into fruition and take it step by step. And I think that first,Hannah Choi 12:33if you're listening, get a pen and paper and start getting organized.12:40One hundred percent! Brilliant tip. Yes. So I think the first question to ask yourself is what kind of account do I want to use to save for college and this is something that I work with families all the time on making this decision, because there's different places you could put your money, the I would say, most popular option for saving for college is using what's called a 529 account. And that's an account that when you save your money over the years in this account, when the time comes to make a withdrawal, you if you withdraw the money for college, so it's sort of like as a 401K is for your retirement, it's for this specific purpose. 529 is for college. And if you're withdrawing the money for college expenses, you don't have to pay any taxes on the earnings of your 529. So it gives you that nice tax bonus, yeah, if you use this money, how it was intended, which was for college, so I would think that's the most popular option, the 529 that people are using to save for college. It does have that restriction, though, that this money is supposed to be used for college to get that tax break. If you use the money for anything other than college, you have to pay taxes on the earnings plus a 10% penalty. No, wow. So you want to be you know, fairly confident you're going to use this money for college, you're not going to have to pull it out for something else. But some people are uncomfortable with that they want more flexibility. So they will just use a regular plain ol' savings account or investment account that they could use for college or for anything else, right. So if you're in that space, where I'm not sure if my kids gonna go to college, I don't like my money being tied up. What if I needed for some emergency, you could just use a regular savings account or regular investment account. You forego the tax break. You know, you'd have to pay taxes on the growth of the account, but you get more flexibility. So that's definitely sort of a decision that people have to weigh what's more important to me this this tax break and saving more money or having more flexibility. There's a nice sort of compromise option that that some folks will choose to use, and it sounds a little weird at first and but it's using a Roth IRA to save for college, a Roth IRA is supposed to be a retirement account. And actually, if you're going to be over 59 and a half, when your kids go to college, Ah, okay, it can be a really great option, because that's their, the way that a Roth IRA works is very actually similar to a 529. Tax wise with a 529, you put the money in, it's after tax money that goes in, but you don't pay any taxes on the growth, if you use the money for college with a Roth IRA, after tax money goes in, you don't pay any money on the growth, if you're over age 59 and a half. Okay?Shannon Vasconcelos 15:49If you're an older you had your kids in your 40s, exactly,15:53The Roth IRA gets you the same tax benefit as a 529. But without the restriction. And even if you're a younger parents, some younger parents will still use a Roth IRA for college savings, because they have this, I'm getting real kind of into the weeds wonky here with it with this option. But with a Roth IRA, your earnings are sort of tied up into in the account till after you're 59 and a half. But your contributions, the amount that you put in, you can get out at any time for any reason. And you've already paid taxes on that money, there's no tax implication. So some younger parents will use a Roth IRA assuming I will pull the money out the the contributions out the principal out to pay for college, but I'll leave the earnings in the account till after I'm 59 and happier those for my retirement. So it's sort of you're gonna use it as sort of a dual purpose count account because it sort of gets you summit, the tax breaks, but some of the flexibility to so that can that can be a good option for for some people, but but there's a number of options. So thinking about what your priorities are, in turn what's matters to me saving the most money in terms of tax regs, what matters to me having flexibility that will I think drive that first decision of Okay, where am I going to cut this college saving?Hannah Choi 17:11Yeah, yeah. That's, that's really great information.17:16Yeah. And then I would say the next decision to make is once you know, the kind of account you're going to use, okay, well, who, who's the actual sort of business or plan manager or bank that I'm going to use to hold this and you can open a 529 account with a variety of investment managers, the way it works at the 520 Nights, specifically, is that every state has their own. But you're actually allowed to invest in any states five times. So I could live in California, but invest in the New York State 529. And different plan managers will have different fee structures that look at slightly different investment options, though, they tend to be relatively consistent across the board, you can probably read looking for basic investment options, they'll probably have it in any 520 units, you want to look at the fees, many states offer a state tax incentive to stick with your home state plan. Okay. So that's usually enough incentive if your state has one of those state tax break to stick with your home states plans, and that can make the decision easy if it's going to be a 529. If it's going to be like a regular savings account or a Roth IRA, something like that, that's more flexible than looking at companies that you've worked with, who have you had a good experience with, again, what kind of what kind of interest Did they give you? Or what kind of fees do they charge that can help you make that kind of next level? This is Yeah. Hannah Choi 18:55So, is there a place that is there a place that people can go that has all of that information altogether? Or do you just need to go and research each state19:06if we're talking about 529, like defined college savings accounts, specifically, my favorite website to research that is a website called Savingforcollege.com. All the detailed information about all the different states' 529. They will tell you if your state has a state tax break, you can do like side by side comparisons. They have a nice list you can find on their website of this dates with the you can sort the list of all the different state 520 names by who charges the lowest fees. I think that's a good starting place. Cool. So yeah, that's that's a really good place to find. Identify who you want is your plan manager. So it's the type of account you want. Who do you want is your plan manager. And then what type of investments do you want to hold in the account. So again, kinda like a 401 K, that a 529 is similar to a 401k, where you've chosen this 529, perhaps, that you want to invest in, and you're given a list of maybe 10, or 20, mutual funds that you can hold the money in within that 529. And some more stocks, and some are more bonds, some 529 types have straight savings account options. But to make this decision, pretty easy for folks who don't really feel comfortable picking investments, they're not sure what they should do just about every 529 out there has what they call an age based fund or target date fund, where you can just choose the mutual fund based baby for me, yes, 100% makes it so much easier, based on your child's age. So it might be like the college 2025 fund the college 2030 fund based on when your kid is going to go to college, and what happens and you just put the money in that fund, that's all you have to do, you don't have to think about anything else. And over the years, as your kids get closer to college age, the makeup of that fund becomes more conservative. So it's sort of banking on the fact that when your kids are quite young, you can be a little bit more risky, be a little bit more aggressive with your investment, as they get closer to college age, you probably want to be a little bit more conservative, be safer, you don't want to, you know, the stock market to take a downturn and all of a sudden you lose all your college savings you want, right? Right, gradually grow more conservative. That's what most kinds of financial experts would would recommend. And these age based funds do it for you. So that's one very easy option for folks who are kind of intimidated by the prospect of choosing particular investments,Hannah Choi 21:55right? Yeah, I'm very lucky because my husband is it manages all that stuff for us. And he is not overwhelmed by that kind of thing. So I was just thinking, if you if you have a partner who can take that on and is happy to get involved, then that's great. If you if your partner or you don't have a partner to work with you on it, it's really great to hear that there are options for people like me, who'd be like, I don't know.22:22Completely, yeah, it makes things a whole lot easier. And I think, again, 520 nines as like kind of the sort of primary college Pacific savings account. They were sort of design with regular folks in mind, you don't have to be an investment expert, to get a 520 started. And then I would just say like, final question you need to ask. So yeah, I know, I want to save in a 529, let's say, and I live in Massachusetts, and they have a state tax break for choosing our plants. I'm going to go with the Massachusetts State Plan, that's who I'm going to house my money with. I'm not sure what to do with investments. So maybe I'm gonna choose the age based fund within that 529 for my child's age. Okay, I've gotten through the first few questions. Final question, how much do I say, Yes, this can be an intimidating one for folks. And what I tell folks is not to stress out too much about it. If you are maybe more like your husband, you're a real numbers oriented person really wants to kind of dig into the data. There are good college savings calculators online, on that saving for college.com website, they have a nice college savings calculator that can help you with setting some savings goal, okay, I know my child is going to likely go to college in this year. So I have 10 years to save or five years to save whatever it is. And this is the calculator will tell you okay, this is what college costs are anticipated to be the cost of an average college at that time, this is how much you'd have to put away on a monthly basis to reach that goal. So for real data, numbers oriented people, I'd absolutely recommend running one of those college savings calculators. The flipside to that is I find that running those calculators can be scary for folks sometimes, very, very often. So don't be surprised if this happens to you very often it shows you a number you could not conceive in your wildest dreams. Yeah, so what I tell people is that is okay, do not get bogged down by that do not worry about that. There are other ways to help pay for college. There are the student loans. We already talked about their scholarships, there's grants. There are monthly payment plans where you can pay the college bill like spread out on a monthly basis as opposed to like having to come up with the money. There's all these different ways to pay for college. You do not have to save that full amount of college that the calculator might tell you, right? Honestly, almost nobody can do that. So that, that turned you off the prospect of savings. If you want to see the numbers to help you set yourself some goals, and you can afford those numbers fantastic. If you can't afford them, don't worry about it, I always tell people just do what you can take a look at your budget, see if if saving for college or for your kids future in some way is important to you. And you don't you're not able to save as much as you'd like. Or there are other places that you could cut back. But just do what you can, any amount that you save is going to help you it's going to make your costs lower in the end again, because you've saved some instead of borrowing it all. It's gonna reduce, reduce those stress levels. So just do whatever you can don't stress out about the big numbers, every single little bit helps.Hannah Choi 26:10And listen to a really great episode that College Coach did on scholarships. And like my daughter's in ninth grade. So it's still pretty early, but I know it's going to happen fast. And I have to say after listening to that episode, I felt a lot better. Like, oh, there are so many options for scholarships out there. Yes, it requires a lot of work. And a lot of planning. A lot of executive function skills come into place that come into play. But yeah, all in all, hope is not lost.26:38No. And I will tell you, the the numbers bear out that add I think these these numbers, they helped me a lot what I think about I think they help other people at public colleges, about three quarters of students receive some type of scholarship or grant discount, they are not paying full price at private colleges that have those super high sticker prices. Almost 90% of students are getting a discount. So in fact, almost nobody is paying those super high standard prices that you see discounts are readily available. Again, it's just a matter of putting the work in to find the discounts applying for need based financial aid, if you might qualify for that looking for schools where you might stand out be above average, that will maximize your chances of getting merit scholarships, so So yeah, don't be turned off by the full giant, huge sticker prices, because almost nobody is actually paying them. Hannah Choi 27:44Yeah, that's good to know. Yeah. Yeah, I was very lucky when I went to college. Well, I guess you could I don't know if it's luck or not. But I very much qualified for need based. So I hardly paid anything. And I went to a private, expensive private college, and we hardly paid anything. So yeah, great. Actually,Shannon Vasconcelos 28:06it seems to be the case that those super pricey expensive private schools, they've got sort of a lot of money to play with, they tend to be the most generous with, particularly the need based financial aid. So don't get scared off by the sticker prices. There are absolutely ways to get discounts and most people aren't paying the whole huge sticker price.Hannah Choi 28:29Yeah. So thinking about answering those four questions. It, it really helps to break it down. And at the same time, you still have to like, track all that information. Do you have any suggestions for staying organized and not letting not letting all that become overwhelming? 28:50Yeah, I think that it's great, too. And it's great for saving for college. It's great for achieving all your financial goals. really setting up your own budget, or I prefer to call them spending plans. I think people are scared off by the B word. Budget. What do you think of it as a spending plan? It's okay, this is your income. This is what I get to spend this is this is a positive? How do I want to spend my money? What do I value? And so keeping track of what you're actually spending your money on? does it align with what you value what you determined because you've thought about this, you've got organized. You know, keeping track of that spending in an organized manner is I think really critical to be able to save effectively for college and really kind of any financial goal that you might have is taking a look at the numbers and not just spending sort of money mindlessly, which we all do on occasion, yeah. That to a minimum and making sure your spending and alignment, spending and saving and alignment with what is most important to you, is, I think, really, really key to this process. Hannah Choi 30:17We just, we just started using it at the beginning of this calendar year, we just started using a budgeting app, a spending plan app called called, You Need a Budget, which is colloquially colloquially called YNAB. And and I love that you said does it align with your values, and that's what's been really neat about, about tracking and watching how we spend our money, and what we spend it on is showing us what our values are, and where the money is going to. And it's, it's, it's just made me a lot more aware of how we spend our money. And, and I catch myself saying, you know, is this in alignment with my values, whatever it is. And it's, as someone who is anxious about money, it has really helped me feel better about about how about spending and about saving our money, which has been really, really great. 31:18That's fantastic. And yeah, people who use that you need a budget app are devoted to it, I haven't personally used it.Shannon Vasconcelos 31:28Yeah, it's got a cult following.31:30So if you're in the market, like that's one that you that you might want to look at, it doesn't work for everybody, some people are, like, I just You just like kind of a regular spreadsheet, I just get and that that like works for me. But like everybody is so different. And that that is one that a lot of people love. So that's what it's not soHannah Choi 31:50Yeah, it's very well loved by many people who have ADHD, because of something about like, how it's organized, it's it's very motivating to us. And it's, there's just like a huge population of people with ADHD who really love what they have. 32:06So I totally get that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And I would, I would also say, just sort of set up like a system to review your college savings progress regularly. And this is not the kind of thing I don't think that you have to be like in your college savings account, you know, on online site, like, every day did it go up. That will drive you crazy. But maybe set like a once a year, check in, you've set it up, maybe with automatic investments that I really, really recommend that will help keep people on track. Like don't give yourself a chance to spend the money. You can automatic deposit automatic deposits every month. But like make a an effort, maybe put something on the calendar once a year to just take a look at it review your college savings plan is what you're doing still working for you? Or do you want to change things I think having some level of flexibility is really important to being successful with with college savings are probably the most kind of long term financial goal. You know, think about things like maybe you've had a job change. So maybe, maybe you're making more money now. So think about that automatic deposit that you set up, maybe could you increase that, or maybe the maybe you've gotten laid off or you've chosen to take a step back and work maybe you have less money available. And maybe you need to adjust what you're putting into the college savings because again, it's spending in alignment with their values, maybe you've decided you value some some other things that need to take priority over college savings at this point. So be thinking about those things set up sort of an maybe an annual check in to think about that, though, the mounts that you're saving. I also think one tip that I think is really helpful to folks with young kids. If you're thinking about this early, which is awesome. You've got a baby or toddler and you want to start saving for college, which is great time on your side. That's fantastic. Yeah. But you might not have a ton of money if you are paying for like full time childcare, right? A lot. A lot left in your budget for college saving. And if you can do a little if you can do $25 a month, $50 a month. I definitely recommend doing it because every little bit does help. But what about when your child enters kindergarten if they're going into the public school system, you don't have to pay 1000 2000 Whatever it is, that opens up more ability to save for college. Hannah Choi 34:55You take that money wouldn't that be great if you could take all of that money you've been putting there and stick it right In the 529. 35:00One hundred percent, that will like, put jet fire into your college savings. But if you don't think about it, if you don't do this kind of checking, it becomes really easy to just that money trickles out and is spent on other things. And you all of a sudden, where did I used to have to pay $2,000 a month for child care now, I don't feel $2,000 A month richer, because going out into the world and all these different ways, but make that concerted effort to check in, oh, I've got I'm gonna bout to have this new money in my budget, I can direct all of it would be great, or even some portion of it into college savings. That will really kind of supercharge your savings and child care, I think is the most obvious one, a lot of parents of young kids are still paying back their own student loans. So again, maybe you can't afford a ton right now, because you're working on paying off your own student loan. But once those student loan payments, and maybe that's an opportunity to supercharge your savings, so So checking in kind of regularly as circumstances change. And I think also your your college expectations could change. And that could affect, you know, that type of account that you want to save. And that's something that you can change along the way. So maybe when your kids were young, you weren't really sure is college going to be in their future or not, maybe you weren't really comfortable doing that 529, where you get the great tax break for college. But if you use it for something else, you got to have to pay a penalty. So maybe that scared you off the 529 at first and you just wanted to use a regular savings account to get started. And then that was working for you. But as the years tick by maybe you realize, I'm pretty sure my kids are going to go to college, this is going to be what we're going to use this money for. Maybe at that point, instead of doing the regular savings account that doesn't get you a tax break, maybe you start putting money into a 529 later on once you're more confident that college is in the future. And then I think it can also you know work in reverse, maybe you started saving in a 529 when your kid was a baby. And as they get further on in their, you know their high school years, you you come to realize they're not really interested in college, this isn't the path that they're on, then maybe you can switch to start saving into a more flexible house. So just setting up that kind of, you can do it at different intervals, I think, at least early on, like an annual check in is a good point to just set aside a little time we put it on the calendar, you know, reoccurring appointment. Now just set aside a time look at your budget, look at how your savings is doing look at where it is, is this plan that I set up initially still working for me? Or is it time to do some adjustments? I think that will help folks along the way. Hannah Choi 37:59I love that that's a great example of how cognitive flexibility the executive function skill of cognitive flexibility comes in. Because you have to be able to look and say like, this is the plan that I originally had, or that we originally had, is that still the case? Oh, it's not okay, well, what's something else that we can do? And, and that can be really challenging for people. So having the additional knowledge about the other options is a great way to make it even more easy to be flexible. So completely.38:30And, and, and sort of said this, but I think to reiterate, you know, being flexible, I don't think means being like reactive again. Yeah, I don't recommend like, looking at your account every day. Oh, no, it went down a little bit, I need to pull my money out. It's, it's not that kind of you have to be able to sort of deal with your emotions, a little bit of doing any kind of investment is, you know, if you're in the stock market at all stocks go up and down, right. You know, so you can't be sort of, you need to be able to control your your emotions to some extended, stocks went down. My Accounts down today, or maybe even this year, stocks are down. That does not make me happy. I wish it was that way. But I know this is a long term endeavor. And this doesn't change my overall goals. So I'm not going to panic, you know, and I see that and I'm going to, I'm going to stick to my plan that I know is right for me at this time. And I will review that plan annually and I'm willing to change if the plan doesn't make sense anymore. But this this knee jerk reaction I'm having on this one day does not mean the plan doesn't work anymore. It's understanding that kind of upfront And I think knowing, doing that sort of internal introspection, to know your risk tolerance is important upfront, if you are going to be in the stock market at all, you have to be able to deal with the with those ups and downs, you have to be, you know, willing to take those risks for the potential of greater return. If that does not sit well with you, if you're like, this will just stress me out every day, then maybe you shouldn't be in the stock market, like you think about like, what's the like, absolute best, like financial thing is not always what's best for your life. Day to day living, if you have a very low risk tolerance, maybe you think about using a lower kind of risky investments. So like that high yield savings account, or a more conservative kind of fund, I think there's actually I neglected to mention, in addition to 529s or like the kind of most popular type of college savings account, there's another one that is available in some states, not all states, but some states have a prepaid tuition plan. Okay, tuition plan, what you're basically doing is kind of locking in tomorrow's tuition at today's prices. And they generally work they're you, unlike 529s where you can invest in any states 529. And you can use the money for college in any state, they're, they're more flexible. With prepaid tuition plans, you're locking in tuition, usually at your home state colleges, okay. So if you're fairly confident that your child is like likely to attend an in state public university prepaid plans can be a really good option. And what they're essentially doing again, you're kind of locking in that tuition. at today's prices, what's kind of happening behind the scenes is a guaranteed rate of return, if you wish and goes up 3%. Every year, your investment makes 3% Every year, so you have the equivalent, and that's guaranteed. So prepaid tuition plans are, you know, a lower risk option, you're not subject to the whims of the stock market, every year, the flip side, the more negative side to it is, you're also probably not going to make a ton of money, tuition, what we've been seeing lately is kind of two or 3%, average annual tuition increases, so you're going to make a decent rate of return, I think mind blowing, but you're also not going to lose money. So again, thinking about your risk tolerance, maybe the prepaid tuition plan sounds better to you than 529 money in the stock market. And I should say that even though they're sort of tied to in state tuition rates, you're not 100% locked into to your child attending an in state public university, oh, that usually happens if they choose an out of state school or private school, you get your money back, plus some sort of minimal return returns. Hannah Choi 38:58So, you don't lose anything.41:02Kind of a lower risk option. So again, thinking about your risk tolerance. And if you feel like seeing the stock market go down, it's going to make you lose your mind and give up on saving altogether. Like a prepaid plan is a better option for you.Hannah Choi 43:50Because they're such a such a great example of how important it is to have this self awareness of, of, you know, what like, like you said, your own risk tolerance, or even your kids like to teach your kids like, you know, what do you want out of your college experience? Do you want to stay close to home? Do you want a bigger school, you know, or do you want a smaller school or, you know, if they know what they want to be when they grow up, then you'd look at that like that, that local public school and see if it has what they're interested in. So just that self awareness, metacognition is the is a good executive function skill, just knowing like how we tick is so important in that in the ability to be proactive instead of reactive.Shannon Vasconcelos 44:34makes so much sense. Totally.Hannah Choi 44:37Yeah, that's great. And, and also, like you said, that emotional regulation piece, and not having that reactive need knee jerk reaction and seeing Yes, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint, where, hopefully it's a marathon. Hopefully you've started this planning earlier. That makes me think like, what if? What if? What if plans change and you do have to be really flexible and your kid is like, actually, you know what I want to go to college not started saving until they're maybe a junior or a senior in high school is all are you? Are you kind of out? You know, I don't want to say screwed, are you? Is it too late for you? Or is there something still that you could do?Shannon Vasconcelos 45:21No, I would say it is never too late to save for college, I like to like to say it's never too early to get started. It's never too late to get started. Where ever you are at, in this process, whether you got small, like elementary schoolers at home or you've got again that like junior in high school, and you haven't started savings yet. It's never too late to make that decision. And again, like crossing that hurdle. Yes, I'm gonna do that. That is the most important thing and everything else can flow from there. And is it realistic, if you're starting junior year in high school to say I'm going to save 100% of college costs? Probably not. But that's okay. Every single little bit helps every dollar that you save, that you don't have to now borrow is going to make a big difference to you. In terms of, again, how much that that college education costs you in the end. And again, like your stress levels, yeah, I'm not going to have enough to totally pay for college out of my savings account. But I'm going to have some, I'm gonna have a low, maybe I can pay for books. That alone is a big step and a big stress reducer. So wherever you're at just making the decision to get started, I think is key. And again, you want to think about okay, we don't have a long time horizon anymore. So maybe I don't want to be in super risky investments, maybe I want to play it a little safer.Hannah Choi 46:53But what about for, what about for teens who work themselves and they make their own money? And that they would like to save for college? Should they just put it into their own 529? Or is there some other sort of more beneficial account that a team could set up?47:10I think you could do it a couple of different ways. Like if you're sure this money is going to be you want to use it for college tuition, or food and housing, those are all kind of eligible 529 expenses, then yes, absolutely. Put it into the 529, again, gets you a little tax break. Now the later you're starting this kind of I would say the less significant that 529 tax break is. Because it's you get the growth on the account tax free, that's the benefit to the 529 Money's only going to be in there a few months, like there's just not that much time for the money to grow, the growth is not going to be that huge. Again, there'll be a little savings there and all likelihood, but you want to weigh like how important is tying the money up for this specific use. And compared to the tax break, you're gonna get out of it. But I think if you and one sort of cognitively nice thing about the 529, I think it lacks flexibility. You think of that as a negative buy for somebody who might be tempted to spend this money on something else, having it tied up where you have to pay a penalty, get it out, that can be a nice incentive to keep it there. Hannah Choi 48:34Yeah. So if you struggle with self control, built in built in strategy, totally48:42Yeah. So So a student who is making their own money could put it into their 529. They could also just put it into, like we met like a high yield savings account that gives them some more flexibility. Like maybe maybe it's not necessarily money that you're going to use for tuition, but it's maybe to pay for books, or it's to pay for, you know, pizza on a Friday night, or one of those other kinds of expenses that might make for a great college experience. Maybe you want to be able to buy tickets to the football games on campus, or the concerts and kids like those other things that aren't a direct college expense that the 529 intention, just putting it into a regular savings account, where you have total flexibility within the money for a student that might be very appropriate for them so they can use it for all those other fun college expenses. Tuition, maybe not that fun, but college expenses.Hannah Choi 49:42Yeah, it's so important to to do those fun things because college isn't just about the academics. It's so much about the social part. So that's great. All right. So I have to say like I feel better after hearing all this. I also feel like if I was not married to the person I'm married to, I would still need some help. What if you're like me, and you're still like sweaty palms like this still feels overwhelming. Who can you? I mean, I could reach out to you, I suppose.Shannon Vasconcelos 50:19Call me and I'm always here.50:26Honestly, that's, that's about half of my job. So that's totally fine to do that. But yeah, I think that asking for help in this process because it is so big because it is overwhelming, I think is a really important skill to have. And I actually think about asking for help when it when it comes to paying for college, I think about it in a few different ways. One is asking for help from friends and family to reach your college savings goals. Because it is a big number. It for most people saving that full price is not really possible on their own. So most 529 plans have a feature where you can ask friends and family for contributions to your colleges savings account, maybe for birthdays or holidays, I do this for my kids as a way like to send a little automatic email to the grandparents. And so and so's birthday is coming up, he would love a contribution to his college savings fun. And I have actually found, like family being like, surprisingly, like excited about it like thing to do, this isn't going to be a toy that gets broken in five minutes, or they're gonna like outgrow this is like really substantial way to help it small amounts at a time. But like every birthday, like a little contribution to the college savings fund, like again, it adds up over time. So I would not be shy about asking for help from friends and family in that way, I found that they're actually they think it's cool and fun and very amenable to that.Hannah Choi 52:20We have, we have a family friend who is kind of like a third set of grandparents for kids. And she used to do very similarly what you do, and and so when my kids were little little she would buy them gifts. And then at one point, I think when they were maybe four or five, she switched. And now she just gives them something very small, like just like a book or something. And then she sends a check with the thing, it says "for the 529".52:49Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I think that that's a great thing to do. You don't have to go this alone in that way in terms of getting to the numbers that you want. I also think about asking for help in terms of down the line, applying for financial aid. And, again, almost nobody pays full price for college that financial aid is available. So when down the line certainly apply for it asked for that help when you need it, thinking about it. Now, if your kids are younger, like I think just knowing that that help is available down the line, it is helpful in terms of removing some of the intimidation factor, I have to save it, I'm going to apply for financial aid when my kids is senior in high school. You don't have to do it all yourself. So just knowing that upfront and certainly, oh my god, please apply for financial aid. Like that it's not something to be scared again, when you take the things that are intimidating, something like filling out the forms are in the air intimidating, please, please do it. And please ask for help with that if you need it. But that that financial assistance is available. So ask for that down the line and going into things know that that is available. And then finally, in terms of asking you for help, like again, with the whole setup of this whole process or I'm not sure about these decisions I've made I know these four questions, but I'm not sure what the right answer is. You can actually literally ask for you know professional help with that you can go to you have a financial planner that you're already working with or you're looking for a financial planner can can help with the setting up of a college savings account. If you're just like look, I cannot deal with it. Again, I want to let people know they've made them pretty user friendly. Like you can do it on your own but if it's something like not worth the stress to you go to a financial planner, they can set up these accounts for you. Or you can go to to us at Bright Horizons College Coach and educational counselor that can that can help you work through these questions and help you make you You know, the right decisions for you. And again, we can check in with people I would actually recommend we work with with folks families privately. So you can go to our website getintocollege.com. And, and reach out to us that way. But we also work as an employer benefit with a lot of companies. So it's something to check in with your employer, do you offer college counseling as an employee benefit? And because we do, we work with a lot of companies, and so employees of companies hire us to work with their employees for free. It's really cool. Yeah. And sometimes we're sort of like an under the radar benefit. And people don't realize that that we're there. Sometimes they realize it, but it's not till their kids are senior in high school. They'll help at that, at that point with the college application process and the financial aid application process. But we can work with you when you have a newborn baby and are thinking about how to save for college. So I would say, check with your employer to see if they offer Bright Horizons college coach as an employee benefit, and then we can help you for free. Otherwise, go to our website, get into college.com. And we're happy to help.Hannah Choi 56:08That's awesome. Cool. Well, I think that is if you can, if you can stay organized, or get organized. And ask yourself those four questions, regulate your emotions, take some time to really reflect on what you are like as a person, how you can handle this, what kind of help you do need. And if you do need, use those self advocacy skills and ask for the help that you need. And go into that meeting with some concrete questions that you've come up with. Because you have taken the time to figure out what you need and what questions you have. I think that sounds like a great recipe for success. Combining financial planning with executive function skills. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much. This is really interesting and also very calming. I feel good. I feel better about it. I assume so. And also. Yeah, good. Just listening to you speak so fluently about him like, oh, it's must not be that big of a deal. Because she's not tripping over her words so it must not be that hard57:22You can do it. And I know you're already doing it. You can do it. And everyone listening. This is something that you can do again, ask for help if you need it. But but you can do this and every little bit helps. Great. All right.Hannah Choi 57:37Well, thanks again, Shannon. I really appreciate the time, your time today and all the great information that you shared is awesome,57:43Oh, you're so welcome.Hannah Choi 57:47And that's our show for today. Thanks for taking time out of your day to listen and I hope you learned something and maybe found some relief like I did. Just because it's money doesn't mean it has to be awful. You can find links to the resources that Shannon suggested in the show notes. And if you know anyone who might benefit from this episode, you can share it with them. If you have any questions or topic suggestions you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I'd love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Our talented editor and producer is Sean Potts. Our Ultra creative content marketer is Justice Abbott and a very special thanks to Ian Fisher at Bright Horizons College coach for connecting me with Shannon. Thanks for listening

Applying for college can feel like a monumental, overwhelming task - and that’s because it is! There are so many deadlines, details, and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic Executive Function skills - but does it have to be? And then, once you get there, how do you set yourself up for success as a college student with EF challenges? I wondered how I could use the platform of Focus Forward to help those of you out there find some resources and strategies to make applying and going to college a little easier. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at McMillan Education, an organization whose goal is to help make the process of applying to college a little easier and less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at McMillan came to my rescue! We met on a sunny morning just last week to have a chat about all things college - both before and after acceptance. Keep listening to learn how you can make the most of this next chapter and if your kiddos are too young to be thinking about college, tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It’ll be here waiting for you!In the meantime, here are some show notes related to the episode: Guide to Colleges for Students with Learning Differences (check your local library or school counseling office)https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Colleges-Students-Learning-Differences-dp-0593517407/dp/0593517407/ref=dp_ob_title_bkMcMillan Educationhttps://www.mcmillaneducation.com/WISE Advice on Educational Planning - McMillan’s Podcasthttps://www.buzzsprout.com/2134583Students with Disabilities Preparing for Postsecondary Education:Know Your Rights and Responsibilitieshttps://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/transition.htmlSelf-Advocacy for College Studentshttps://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-students7 Ways to Support Your Teen During the College Application Processhttps://www.linkedin.com/pulse/7-ways-support-your-teen-during-college-application-ellis-mba-phd/Contact Us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So I was talking with my children's former second grade teacher recently and she was telling a funny story about how the stress of applying to college was affecting her and her daughter, who is a senior in high school. Another friend of mine, Bonnie, who you might know from my tip of the day about body doubling on Instagram. She shared with me that she was wondering how she could support her son, who is a junior in high school in the college search and application process without actually doing the work for him. There are so many deadlines and details and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic EF skills, throw in a neurodivergent brain and it is bound to be an extremely challenging experience. But does it have to be? I wondered how we here at Focus Forward could help my friend and my children's teacher find some resources and strategies to set their kids up for success during the stressful time. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at Mcmillan Education, which is an organization that does exactly that - make the process of applying to college a little easier and a little less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at Mcmillian. Excuse me, Mcmillan came to my rescue. We met on a Sunday morning just last week to have a chat about all things college, both before and after acceptance. So keep listening to learn. And if your kiddos are too young for this info at this time, just tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It'll be here waiting for you. Or listen anyway, just because you're a Focus Forward super fan. I'm just kidding. But speaking of our amazing fans, if you listen to us on Spotify or Apple podcasts, could you please do me a big huge favor and give us a five star rating, we will love you forever for it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And don't forget to reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com If you have any topic ideas that you'd like us to cover. Okay, now on to the show. Well, hi, Rachel, thanks so much for joining me today.Rachel Leja 02:33Hi, Hannah. It's nice to be here.Hannah Choi 02:35Yeah, I'm so excited to to talk about this because my kids, my daughter is in ninth grade. So this is going to be something that is coming up for us. So it's good to kind of figure things out, things have changed since I went to school some number of years ago, we won't count that. And so would you introduce yourself and explain why you are here and what your background is? Rachel Leja 03:05Sure. So my name is Rachel Leja and I work for Mcmillan Education. We are an educational consulting firm out of Boston. And I work with students that have learning disabilities or neurodivergence of some type. And my background is in special education teaching. I started my career at the Landmark School in Beverly, Massachusetts, where I fell in love with all things executive functioning. And I took what I learned there, and I transitioned to a therapeutic day school in Connecticut, where I imparted a lot of that wisdom and honed a lot of that work, especially with students as they were applying to colleges. And after I left the teaching world, I've joined Mcmillan and much of my work has been with students. I work with school aged students as well for school placement, but I do a lot of college work. And a lot of my work revolves around students that have a neurodivergence, and specifically some executive functioning deficits. So a lot of my work is focused on helping them manage the process and also bolster those skills during that time. Hannah Choi 04:06So you have you have such a great background for that you have like the the teaching sort of student support side and the kind of knowledge about the whole application process. So it's like, yeah, really great combination.Rachel Leja 04:17Sort of a convergence of all of my worlds.Hannah Choi 04:19Yeah, that's really neat. I love that. Cool. Great. So could you tell me a little bit about McMillan and maybe how like, just how you guys approach supporting kids when they're applying to school? Sure. So,Rachel Leja 04:36Macmillan education, like I said, we are located out of Boston, but we have consultants kind of all over. I'm actually in Connecticut. We have about 18 or 20 consultants that work with all types of different students and learners. We have folks that specialize in things like international placement or athletic recruiting. And like I said, I work with students with learning disabilities. So we all kind of have our own well, areas of expertise and we assign students kind of based on their background coming in to work with counselors. And our job is to really help students to break down the college process itself. For all students, not even those that are, you know, in addition to those that struggle with executive functioning, most students find the college process overwhelming. So really spending the time to break that down into meaningful chunks. And to help students really execute that application process. So everything from college search, to standardized testing, to pressing, you know, send on those applications very soon, is really what we do with students.Hannah Choi 05:37That's great. I have a friend whose son is a junior in high school, and she just said to me the other day, I, you know, I want him to take ownership of it, because it's his college experience. And it's his, you know, it's his high school experience, and his, you know, it's his life. And at the same time, she's like, I feel like I need to support him as well. So it sounds like the services that you guys provide, probably make it so that parents can learn support, but also take a step back a little bit and give some of the ownership to the kid.Rachel Leja 06:13Yeah, absolutely. So you know, part of our process is meeting with everybody. First, we have a meeting where we talk with students and parents, and we get some insight about kind of the student's goals wants, you know, hopes for the future, but also the same from the parents. And then usually, it's largely hands off with parents, and it allows them to kind of step back and be a part of those more fun parts of the process, like going on college tours, or, you know, kind of talking about the things that their kids are excited about about college and not having to worry about some of those, like, you know, the the little tasks that can be lagging and aggravating, and then lets us kind of, you know, be those people and instead kind of helps students stay accountable while keeping peace at home.Hannah Choi 06:58I mean, I see that a lot as a coach, you know, just getting be allowing the parents to step out of that, like you said, like that sort of naggy role. And it's different when it's not someone in your family, when it's when it's someone outside your family. Working with you and supporting you with that kind of stuff, it it, it hits differently than when is your parents. Right, right. You know, did you did you do this? Did you do that? Rachel Leja 07:19Right? Yeah. And one thing that's you know, we always say is that we are truth tellers. So we are here to just share the information that we have with students and families and sometimes utilizing that objective data can really help to clarify things for students and for parents. And so, you know, that's, that's also part of our process with students and families.Hannah Choi 07:39Okay, so if you're working with a student who has, you know, a disability or ADHD or something like that, how do you support them? And how, what are the kind of the progress that what are the steps that you take? Yeah, to support them through that?Rachel Leja 07:54That's a great question. So we use in our college planning, what we call our WISE method of educational planning, which is broken into four steps. So already, we're breaking a larger task down for all of our students. So that first step is really the "wondering" phase, like, you know, thinking about what's my ideal college, what's available out there, what am I interested in. In that "investigation" phase, where we are really digging deep on colleges and looking into services, requirements, things like that, that "seek" phase, again, we're really doing a lot more of that kind of deep work. And then "endeavoring" is really just, you know, putting those applications together. So throughout those phases, for all of our students were utilizing this process and through the platform that we have called the owls nest, students are assigned tasks throughout that process that align both with the college process itself and with our wise methods. So that's one way that we kind of helped to break down and keep students accountable throughout the process for each of those tasks. The college process itself requires a ton of executive functioning skills. And even for students with strong executive functioning skills, the sheer amount of information and deadlines can be really overwhelming. So by breaking it into those meaningful and manageable chunks, that can help to increase clarity and productivity and also help students to manage the stress of the college application process. So my job is to just really help kids to get out of their heads, externalize some of their thinking, put things on paper, have conversations in a way that helps them to really wrap their brain around what they're looking at and what they want. Because it's it's such a daunting process. So my job is to help kind of make that process a little bit less mysterious. Hannah Choi 09:47Yeah, it's something that I've been that has kind of been trending for me lately is this idea of the strategies that that people with executive function challenges use can be used by anybody and and like you said, you know, it's this breaking things down and making things more accessible, making things easier that benefits everybody, regardless of any, like ADHD diagnosis or any other diagnosis, like why not take advantage of all of these strategies that are really helpful? Right? Yeah, I love that the students can have a place that they can go to see what their next steps are. So it's the accountability is on them to do it. And yet that you give them some autonomy to say like, Okay, I need, I need to, I need to make this choice to log into this account and see what the next steps are, and and figure out when I'm going to do that, and how I'm going to make that fit into my busy schedule. So I love that you, you, you give them you support them with the tools that they need to, to work towards that independence, and you give them the opportunity to have some autonomy, about around how they're going to approach it and when they're going to approach it.11:02Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things in my work that I like to do at first, especially, is to really model all of those good behaviors for students like when we're getting together, okay, we're logging in together, we're looking at your Owl's Nest, we're looking at your common app, we are, you know, modeling these behaviors for students so that they understand, you know, how to create good habits around this. It's not second nature for a lot of kids to just like, know how to research such a vast topic, and what to do with all that information. So a lot of it for us is really guiding students in those initial phases. And then by this time of year, hopefully, and many of my students are doing this, they're really taking off and they really are taking ownership. I've had a couple of meetings just this week with students where they've come in with their own agenda, and you know, their own set of questions for me, and I feels like I'm no longer leading the meeting, and I'm just really helping guide them, which is my favorite part.Hannah Choi 11:55Oh, I love that. That's great. So speaking of this time of year, I mean, we are recording this, at the end of October, and this episode is going to drop in, in November. So at what point is, should people be by this point? And and, you know, listeners, if you're listening at any other time of year, it's still this, this information is still going to be relevant, because, you know, you can write down some information, save it for the future. But you know, like, at what kind of like, what's a good timeline, the least stressful timeline, then somebody could follow? 12:34Yeah, that's a great question. So we have a lot of families that come to us early in the process. I currently have a couple of sophomores on my roster that I'm working with and, and that work is really just geared towards helping to guide them through high school and their experience and sort of thinking about, you know, what are your interests? What are the courses that you're taking? What extracurriculars are you pursuing? So you know, that is certainly an okay time to start as well. But most students start kind of in their junior year, I usually start more intensive work with students over the summer before senior year. So our hope is to really focus the bulk of the writing during that junior summer, or that summer leading up to senior year so that when senior year hits, and you are back in the thick of it with schoolwork and applicant finalizing your applications, that that is kind of off your plate kind of that that task is one less thing to do. And that allows you to do things like you know, go on some last minute visits, and you know, maybe have some more conversations about strategy with your with your counselor. But I certainly also have students that come to me at the beginning of senior fall, and they haven't maybe done any work at all, or they've done some work. It's certainly doable. It's a little bit more of a stressful timeline. But we generally get it done. I mean, in early applications are going in November 1, which means ideally, we'd love kids to press that submit button tomorrow to account for any possible technical difficulties that might come their way. But you know, there's, there's really, it's never to, actually I don't want to say it's never too early to start, it would be certainly too early to start in eighth grade or something like that. But kind of starting the big picture process. Thinking about college as you enter high school is certainly not uncommon, especially in the changing landscape of college, which continues to be more competitive than ever. So I think you know, general rule of thumb by junior year, mid junior year, you're thinking about it, you're starting to go on college visits and spring of junior year and then in summer really focusing your attention on kind of those basic application parts so that you can take those off your plate later on in the fall. Hannah Choi 14:48Yeah, and that's such a it's so important to reduce the stress as much as possible because I mean life as a student is stressful enough if you are also challenged with executive dysfunction for whatever reason, when you're stressed the areas that start that challenge you are going to challenge you even more. So I can see how it is so important to take your stress levels into consideration when you're applying to, you know, to college, or when you are just going through the whole process, whether you're doing applications or whether you're actually in the application part or not.15:27Yeah, and I think just the the part of starting early, that also helps us it just gives you more knowledge from an earlier start. So that things you know, when something's less of an unknown, it's less intimidating, it's easier to initiate. So I think the more exposure that students can have, I mean, I know a lot of families with multiple kids who, you know, I go to visit colleges often. And I will see, you know, obviously a junior touring with maybe their freshman sibling or something like that, that's a great way to expose kids to just what college campuses look like. And another note, on your point about kind of those students that struggle with executive functioning is, you know, a lot of a lot of my work is helping students to sort of recognize the areas in which they are weakest when it comes to those executive functions, not to point fingers and say, You're bad at this, but to say, this is an area that you need some extra support. And, you know, if I'm starting to see a student really struggle, you know, we're looking at, you know, early decision deadlines, and it's two weeks before and you haven't, you know, done any outside work, or you know, you have you've been missing meetings with me, that's some really good data that we can use to inform your college selection process, because not all colleges are going to offer that type of support that's going to allow those students to transition from often highly scaffolded high school programs into a much more independent college landscape. Hannah Choi 16:51Something to keep in mind, which is related a little bit to what we were just saying is, if you have a diagnosis, you probably want to keep schools in mind that are going to be supportive of someone who might be taken advantage of accommodations. So how do you support students who maybe have used accommodations in high school and would like to continue, or at least have the option? 17:14Yeah, to to do that, so many students don't realize that their IEP isn't going to follow them to college, and that we're going to need to look to sort of the, the originator of a lot of those recommendations and accommodations, which is often neuropsychological testing. So I think it's really important for students, especially as they're entering college, to be really familiar with that testing, we like it to be, you know, at least within two years, so that it's recent. And the reason for that is not just so that the information, you know, the data is most recent on the student, but also that the recommendations and accommodations that are being suggested, are relevant to a college setting. So you know, helping a student read through their neuropsych evaluation, maybe not all the nitty gritty, but looking at, you know, how do these things translate? What are these recommendations mean for you in a college setting? And think about what did that look like when you were in high school. So I often say to students, I'd really like you to tell me what you felt you needed in order to be successful in high school, what has helped you specifically, so kind of going through that list, and sometimes that's utilizing the IEP to say, you know, I did use this accommodation, and it was great, or I didn't actually need extra time as much as I thought I would. So that might not be something that I need in college. But the flip side of that conversation is, you know, the expectations of high school and the expectations of college are very different. Students that didn't feel they needed extra time in high school, with the increase in pace, volume and complexity of college level work might find that that extra time is absolutely necessary. So having that conversation about, you know, maybe more accommodations is better, you don't necessarily need to utilize them all, but they're there if you do need them. So having really frank conversations about what their diagnosis means for them. In some instances, we work with students to kind of acquire those accommodations, that's another service that we offer. So in that case, you know, scripting with students, having them you know, be comfortable explaining to a stranger, you know, this is my diagnosis, this is what it looks like for me. And these are the things that are most helpful to me, academically, and students having a level of comfort with even just the language like understanding, you know, the words that are going to help them best advocate for themselves. And those kinds of educational buzz phrases are buzzwords that kids might necessarily not necessarily be familiar with, but they see plastered all over the websites for every, you know, Academic Support Center at every college. So, a lot of just education around, you know, what is your diagnosis mean for you? What does it mean at a college level? And how might you find that support and best fit environment based on that information?Hannah Choi 19:54So how do how do students know where to look? And like is There's sort of like a clearing house of schools that are great for supporting people that might take advantage of20:07Yeah, you won't see this, but I'm holding a book that I use a lot. So the Princeton Review has a book called the "K and W Guide to Colleges", for students with learning differences. And I think that's a great place to start for families, because it does a really nice job of breaking down the levels of support that students will find at colleges. So to use some of their language, each college that's included in their guide is kind of coded. So there are the most structured programs. So those are the most comprehensive, usually fee based, they require some sort of application process or contract with the student. And they offer the most robust support delivered by learning specialists. In some instances, there's kind of a reverse FERPA where students will allow their parents to have communication with the college. So that can be really helpful for students that want to feel like you know, they have kind of a team around them supporting them, you know, those can often involve cohort learning. So grouping of students based on their needs. You know, I'm thinking of, of a of a couple of particular programs that offer within those cohorts, one on one support, which could be highly individualized based on a student's needs based on that documentation. But also small group instruction around things like executive functioning skills, and strategies, or even some content work with writing, reading comprehension. So those were the most kind of structured programs, and there are certainly many of those out there. And they're growing, because I think colleges are recognizing the need for that, not just coming out of COVID. But just coming out of a world where students are so highly structured in high school, you know, their, their time is accounted for almost 100% Every day, and then getting to college and recognizing, whoa, I have all this freedom, I only have two classes a day, this should be no problem. And we all know how that can go south very quickly. And then there's more coordinated services, where they're going to be services on campus where students can avail themselves of a writing center, a math center, maybe it's content, tutoring with peers, or professionals. Sometimes this is fee based, sometimes it's built into the college. But those services really rely on the student to lean in. Whereas those more structured programs, they're not going to go looking for you. They're not going to really be knocking on your door and the door of a door if you don't show up. But they are going to say "hey, I noticed that you weren't at our, you know, you missed our meeting the other day, what's going on?" In those coordinated services type schools, there's going to be more more responsibility on the student to access those services, which can be great for a student that is more independent and knows what works for them, I have several students that, you know, have said to me, I feel really confident in my ability to seek out what I need, consistently, great, we can look at more of those programs with coordinated services. And then there are those colleges that basically offer, you know, the Federal compliancy. So they are compliant. So they will they will do whatever, to provide reasonable accommodations to students who qualify. And you'll notice that every college says that they can do that. And to you know, a certain extent they can, they can offer extra time, they can offer, you know, preferential test taking spaces or maybe seating, things like that, maybe technology to support students. But that's going to be the least amount of, of oversight from the services to the student, meaning they're not going to, you know, come looking for you and say, Hey, you signed up for you know, you access the accommodations, but you haven't actually used any of them, it's really going to be on the student to do that. And many of your larger universities are going to have that kind of a thing. You know, where they have access to those things, but they need to do that on their own. That being said, there are some other really great larger universities that recognize that need, especially for students as they're transitioning in in their freshman and sophomore year, to offer a little bit more comprehensive support. So I think we're going to see that into the future. Some of these more competitive colleges are going to offer programs for students that are divergent, because they value these students think differently, and recognize that they can bring a lot to their communities.Hannah Choi 24:21That's great. Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in California. And it was really neat to see the the variety of students who would come in and you could really see the kids who had, who had practice the scripts and had, you know, really learned how to advocate for themselves and then the kids who were, you know, just learning how to do that. So it is wonderful that you work on that with kids, because it gives the it gives them so much more confidence and ownership of you know, this is something that that they're going out into the world with this year. divergence and it's not going away. And the world is yes, like you said it is slowly changing a little bit. But that's still the safe environment of us of a college. It's not that big outside world. So. So learning how to advocate for yourself is just hugely important. And even, even in the whole application process to I imagine if you don't have any kind of diagnosis, or if you don't struggle with executive function skills, still being able to advocate for yourself and say, you know, this is the kind of school I want, this is the kind of environment I want. Yeah, so I love that I love that what you do, supports kids and, and enables them to, to learn that and to become stronger in that. 25:43So one part of my work with students is certainly helping them to, like I said, before, that word "demystify", like, what is all this educational jargon mean on these websites, and, you know, I'll have students that say, I looked at XYZ college, and I can't really tell the difference between the three. So kind of helping students to understand, you know, what those buzzwords mean, and how they translate to day to day. experiences for students is really important. So I always encourage families when they're visiting a campus, and if you know, your student is going to need academic services, whether that be executive functioning coaching, or content level coaching, or whatever that may be, go to the office of accommodations, or whatever it's called on campus, have a meeting with somebody in that department. Let me tell you this, they're kind of akin to the librarian, like they can't wait to help. This is their job, this is their passion. And it's so wonderful for students to meet those folks before they even apply to a college because not only does it take away some of the unknowns about you know, are these people nice? Is this in an area of campus, that's going to make it really obvious when I access it, or, you know, how many other kids use this program? Am I going to be the only one, those are things that students can talk about with these folks at these accommodations offices, that will help to de-stigmatize and demystify the whole process so that when they actually land on campus, they say, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go speak to so and so the, in the accommodations office, because we had a really great rapport over the summer when I came for my tour. And I'm excited to, you know, see who I might be working with. And, and as much as you can - Parents, let students lead those meetings. Because, you know, I have lots of kids that go with their parents, and I've observed it myself on tours, where, you know, parents are kind of taking that role of asking all the questions and sharing all the information and as much as you can prepare and encourage your student to do that, because it's just good practice. And it also, you know, is going to create more of a genuine relationship with those folks on campus. And if the parents doing all the communication.Hannah Choi 27:46Right, yeah, and the parent, your parents are not going to be there when school starts. Rachel Leja 27:50You're going to college!Hannah Choi 27:53Yeah, a lot of the students that I work with, are our freshmen and sophomores in college, and they are, much of much of what we will end up talking about is how to take advantage of the services and accommodations that they qualify for. And, and figuring out just the process, and, and how, who to talk to, and what, what documents they need and, and how to take advantage of the services. And I just, I always think like, Oh, if this conversation had been had, before they got there over the summer, or once they were accepted, or whenever it'd be much less stressful, and much less like you said, like a mystery, like, what is this mystery office over here? And yeah, so I really encourage anyone listening, like Rachel said, is, you know, go in there and meet people early and, and you know, write a script out, practice what you're going to say, and figure out the questions you want to ask and write them down, you know, you're probably going to be nervous when you go in. So if we're nervous, it's hard to use our executive function skills. And so I don't know about you, but memory is always my first to go. And I have to write stuff down. 29:06So yeah, and I encourage students, when they when they go, you know, bring your documentation with you bring your list of recommendations and accommodations and, and highlight that baby up and share it with them. There's no, there's no shame in not being able to remember all the intricacies of your profile. And I think that, you know, those folks would really appreciate having that information up front, because then they can really speak to how they can support you specifically. First, and, and what you know, if there's multiple programs on campus, you'll notice now a lot of schools have kind of differing levels of support different tiers, so they can make recommendations, you know, based on your documentation based on their experience that would be best fit for you.Hannah Choi 29:46Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I mean, I just I just the other day did a webinar all about executive function skills and, and a big section that we talked a big thing that we talked about was this is this idea of building independence, those strong skills that you need for independence. And so and so someone who has, you know, who has, who someone who is a neurodiverse has a neurodivergent Berberine is going to, like I said, you know, you're going to have to use these skills when to get out of college. So take advantage of it in. And luckily, it is becoming less stigmatized, and there is more acceptance and conversation being had about it. So take advantage of it. Because you think college is hard. Once you get out of college, and you're out in the real world, you know, there's even less support. So it's such a good place to practice it. 30:41And it just gives students the opportunity to start taking ownership over the process earlier on, there's so many people that are going to tell you what to do, what to think, where to go, how you know how to strategize. And I think if you have a really clear sense as a student of what's going to benefit you in terms of that support, then it will be easy for you to say, you know, XY and Z College is great, but they certainly don't offer the type of support that I'm looking for. So you know, thank you very much. But no, thank you. I won't be applying to x College, just because you've recommended it.Hannah Choi 31:12Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. So this goes back to you know, anyone listening, if you are in high school, or you are the parent of someone who is in high school, now is the time to start practicing all of those things. Because what a super safe, supportive environment that you're in right now, to practice that. And it can be hard as a parent to let go and to let you know those potential stumbles happen. But it's it's so important, so important, especially if you have a neurodivergent brain,31:45Righ. And I think one thing for parents of all college students, but particularly with that narrow divergent brain is being curious about your student's college search process and not prescriptive. You know, I love having them kind of explained to you why is it this that this college appeals to you and really dig deep? If they'd say, like, you know, they have study abroad? Well, all colleges have study abroad, which particular programs are you interested in, you know, help to kind of elicit some of those conversations that are going to help to kind of crystallize their view of, of this college, instead of saying, like, well, I, you know, I'm not familiar with that college, so it must not be that good. Or are you going to get into a decent grad school with that college? Or, you know, nobody in our family went to that college. Those are all things that parents say, you know, without, without much ill intent, just sort of off-the-cuff just in conversation. But those are the kinds of things that can get into a kid's brain and really keep them from looking at things that are the best fit options for them for them. And it gets them thinking more in terms of aligning their values and beliefs with an end goals with their parents, which don't always match. Oftentimes don't match.Hannah Choi 32:52So maybe asking those open ended questions and maybe making observations but, you know, couching it with, like, there's no judgment in this observation, just from a place of curiosity. Yeah, which, again, goes back to how helpful it can be to have someone who is outside of their family and doesn't know the family history and doesn't know those, you know, those specific values, they can look at the student more, you know, the student outside of outside of all the other things that their parents think define the student.33:24And it's so helpful to to know those the parents values and the family's values to even if they don't align with the student, because that can be helpful when you experience you know, and this, this often happens at students will have a school on their list that their, their parent might not necessarily be as enthusiastic about and, and just sort of helping them to learn how to how to kind of share with their folks what appeals to them about that particular program. And, you know, I think for parents, I think the most helpful thing that you can do is to kind of, you know, help students lean into the process and, and make time and space for them to explore and help them with things like, you know, help them but don't do for them, you know, scheduling tours, and setting up interviews or taking advantage of opportunities to speak with current students. But really, just, like you said, kind of a no judgment zone and taking more of a backseat role and, and letting them drive the bus. And obviously, as you know, as professionals and as parents at certain points, you need to step in and course correct. But largely, if you give your students the space and the time to explore and to really dig deep and to really do some good reflective work, they're going to come up with a list of colleges, that is really great. And, you know, there's going to be a range of schools on there from, you know, reaches to more target schools to schools that they're, you know, more likely to get into and, and that's totally appropriate. And we encourage that. Yeah.Hannah Choi 34:51Which goes back to the whole idea of let's get started a little earlier on this. Yeah, we think we might need to. Yeah, I mean, that's something We that we work on all the time with our clients, like, let's start with this schoolwork or this work project earlier than then you think you might need because it is nice to have that extra time it is less stressful.Rachel Leja 35:11And I think for parents right now I'm experiencing this myself with some of the students I'm working with is, you know, it is getting close to deadlines. So they've been really great about standing on the sidelines and, you know, reading my updates and things like that, and communicating with me as necessary. But now that itch to sort of get involved starts to creep up. So it's so tempting to jump in, especially when your kids are struggling, but don't take that as an opportunity to gather some data about, you know, what's holding them up in the process, and what is the stumbling block, and certainly helping them to, you know, come up with strategies to address those, those, those blocks that they're having, but really just sort of thinking, okay, so how is what they're experiencing now going to translate to college. And sometimes that can really help parents to see that their student is going to need a more structured program, or they are going to need more comprehensive support, instead of just doing for them, allowing them to make mistakes, because they will, they will miss deadlines, and you know, things like that along the way. But, you know, all of that is to be sort of observed, again, with curiosity, and how is this going to translate? And how can I best support my students leading up to graduation leading up to the, you know, submitting the applications, whatever it may be to bolster those skills and strategies, they're going to need to be successful as they transition into college?Hannah Choi 36:33Yeah, and it's so hard. You know, that's something that we've talked about so many times, it's so hard as parents to back off and say, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you drive the bus. But when they are supported, and given the tools that they need, it can reduce the chance of, you know, missing too many deadlines. 36:56Right, exactly. Yeah. And, and oftentimes, you know, those, those instances where kids do do mess up or message miss a deadline or something like that, you know, all behaviors, communication. So maybe if we miss some of those early action deadlines, maybe we're not so sure about those colleges, and maybe we need to solidify our list. And, and it's such a, it's such a developmental process and a process of discovery for students. So, you know, so much of the work that we do with kids is centered around mirroring back to them, the the characteristics, the values, the beliefs, that they have the interest, the passions, to help them sort of start to see themselves outside of themselves, like, you know, what do you bring to a college campus and, and sometimes that process takes time. And parents get really nervous that, you know, we're getting close to deadline, and that essay isn't perfect. But, you know, through that process of writing the essay, not only have I learned so much about your students, so that I can guide them to the best, you know, opportunities for them. But they have now learned so much more about themselves. And they just have, you know, after they write a couple of really strong supplements about, you know, why do I want to attend this college or, you know, tell us about yourself outside of school, they start to see the person that everybody else sees that maybe they don't necessarily see. So a lot of my work is just helping them not only recognize the areas that they're going to need more support in college, but what are the attributes that you bring to a community that are really going to help your application shine, and set you apart from other other qualified applicants.Hannah Choi 38:32And that and that just really shows you the value of having allowing your student to work through that process on their own, from a really authentic place? Because then it does give them the opportunity to make those discoveries about themselves. And, and, and figure out like, oh, well, I thought this was my value, but in the process of writing this out, or it's kind of like a journal, right, that process of journaling, also, like served as my college essay, yes, supplemental writing, you know, can really open your eyes to something that you didn't necessarily realize was true.39:08Yeah, and for students with executive functioning, challenging, the writing piece is often the hardest part. I mean, writing requires you to use so many of your executive functions, you know, you've got a lot of balls in the air, you're juggling when you're trying to write something. So from organizing your ideas to, you know, creating meaningful and clear communication to the reader and your writing style. You know, all of that requires a lot of a lot of scaffolding for students with executive functioning deficits. So, you know, my work with kids can sometimes look like, Okay, we don't know where to start. I'm just going to ask you some questions. And as you talk about this, I'm going to write down as much verbatim you know, is I can get so that we can then take a look at you know, what do you what do you have to say or what do you sound like when someone just casually asks you this question versus when you're trying to craft the perfect hook for your A college essay. So, you know, when we take away some of those demands of, you know, organizing the ideas in their head holding them while they get them on paper, you know, thinking about how do I translate this in a way that is creative, but also clear and, you know, leaves my reader wondering, you know, that's a lot to ask students to do at one time. So we can try to again, help externalize some of that process, and really break it down. It's, I'm feel really lucky in that my training, you know, my background, my, my college degree is in professional writing. So writing has been something I've been passionate about forever, I had a ton of great training, when I worked at Landmark around the five step writing process. And, and so much of that is translated into my work with students, and all of our counselors do that, because we all have school experience. But some students, those with executive function needs really just need that extra level of support. And by kind of allowing students to, to just think about conveying the content, first, it really does open them up to recognize that they have a story to tell, yeah, a lot of them get really bogged down in, you know, they've got I can tell they've got the Thesaurus up, and they're throwing in synonyms wherever they can, but, you know, colleges really want to hear your authentic voice. So helping students to develop that authentic voice, it can take time, but it's absolutely worth it every single time. Hannah Choi 41:23Yeah, I can't, gosh, who knew that applying to college could be such a self discovery process. And you think it's just like, Oh, I'm just gonna find the school to go to but it you can really learn so much about yourself and what you need, both to be successful. And just to feel like you can be your authentic self.41:45Yeah, so many kids don't know what they want to do when they get there. And that's okay, too. I think part of it is just helping kids to recognize that this next step is going to allow them to further develop their interests and passions, and we just need to make mindful decisions about a college, it's going to give you the opportunity to do that. And also recognize that there are, you know, some programs of interest there that you might like down the line. But for so many kids with ADHD, executive functioning challenges, or any learning disability, getting through high school has been the challenge. And so the idea of entering willingly into four more years of, you know, much more intense academic setting is really scary. And so kind of helping them recognize that it doesn't have to be a home losing my train of thought here, it doesn't have to be something that's, that needs to be set in stone, and that they can really continue this process of development when they're at college. And you don't have to have all the answers now you just need to set yourself up in the best way that you can for success.Hannah Choi 42:49Right and finding a school that is going to be an integral, positive supportive aspect of that is, yeah. So, once once a student gets to school, do you have some recommendations for, you know, aside from what we already talked about, with taking advantage of, or getting to know that office of accommodations or Disability Resource Center, whatever it's called on the campus? You know, what are some what are some suggestions that you have for students? Rachel Leja 43:20So one thing I like to always suggest that students do, and this is the case of most colleges, you know, the accommodations office is not going to communicate to your professors, what your needs are, what your accommodations are. So your first order of business should be to set up meetings, whether that's during office hours, or, you know, however, your professor manages their time to go and meet with that Professor one on one. And if you've had that conversation with the accommodations office, you've already had some good practice, feel free to bring that script, they will provide for you often a physical letter or a digital letter that you will provide to the professor, use that as the basis for your conversation. But I think just being very upfront from the beginning, and this is not an opportunity to overshare This is not like let me give you my life story. And all the ways I've failed. Let me tell you, you know, I've done my homework before I got here, these are the services I'm going to avail myself of, this is what I need from you, you know, I have an accommodation for professors notes beforehand, you know, not all professors are going to be amenable to that at every college. But in my experience, if students have been proactive, and students have taken ownership and responsibility for their part of the process, teachers are much more likely teachers and professors are much more likely to lean in and support that student. And it also just takes away some of that unknown again, you're building a relationship with your professor from the very beginning. So if and when because it happens to everybody and I remember what had happened to me. Everything's going along in September and October and then like, you know, we've got a bunch of things happening all at once or exams or something like that. So when you know when the Autumn does fall out, you already have that established relationship with your professor. So I think that's incredibly important. Utilizing any sort of transitional freshman support system that exists, whether that's a seminar class, led by an advisor could be your advisor could be another instructor, just taking advantage of all of those opportunities, academically and socially, because a lot of these more structured programs will have a social element to them as well, because for students that have learning disabilities, sometimes that has impacted their social life in different ways, for whatever reason. And those are opportunities for them to, you know, get involved in campus activities to make, you know, like minded friends and peers, and also, again, just de-stigmatize this idea of students with learning disabilities on college campuses. And then I would also say, really get to know your advisor, right off the bat, even if you're going in undeclared. And you might not have the same advisor year to year I have students worried about that, well, you know, what, if they change, establishing that relationship from the start is great, because not only can you share what you need in terms of support from the college and from your advisor, but you can also talk with them talk through with them your plan, your goals, you know, what are the paths that you're considering pursuing, and just really remembering that you are spending a lot of money to go to college, and these things are built in and or, you know, they might be a fee based program, but you are, you know, you are paying for this, so make sure you get your money's worth, and recognize that it's the college's responsibility to, you know, to make good on these promises for accommodations and things like that. So really not feeling like a burden. I think that's the big problem that a lot of my students have is they've always felt like that, you know, and they've probably heard it, you know, they might have overheard a teacher saying, Oh, I have to make extra notes for Johnny again, like, God, that's such a pain. And then they start to internalize that and feel like they're a burden, and really just from the start to recognize that they are, they're taking responsibility for what they need. And they are, they're taking that burden off of other people by saying, Hey, here's what I need, here's how you can do that. Let's help each other make that happen. So that would be some advice that I would have for students. And that's easier said than done. Obviously, that takes a confident kid. Yes. But luckily, it's a practice. Yeah, lots of practice. But luckily, there are organizations like yours and others that will help students to lean in and take advantage of those. Those supports, and even I talk with students all the time, even on a more traditional campuses where those supports don't exist, or in that level of, to that level of I guess. I don't know. I don't know how to phrase that. But then like, yes, exactly more holistic, that there are ways to supplement that elsewhere. Yeah. And so you know, there might be a student who says, you know, I'm really I know that I'm going to need these things. But this is the college I've dreamed of going to since I was little, and I got in and you know, Ed, and all of that, well, then, okay, we can make that happen, as long as there's somebody there that can say, okay, there's a gap here, we need to fill it somehow. How can we find that? Yeah,Hannah Choi 48:08well, I mean, I can say from the other side of that, all that preparation, and all those steps that you just mentioned, it truly, truly, truly does make a difference. I mean, I have had clients who, I had one client who was very, very sick during finals week, she had, she had established a really great relationship with one of her professors. And so the professor was super, super lenient with her, and, uh, you know, and made accommodations for her and allowed her to, I can't remember what that you know, how they actually did it, but she was able to do that final in such a way that, you know, worked around her being really ill, but also, you know, within the timeline that the teacher needed to follow as well. So, I mean, it just makes such a huge difference. And I see it in the students who they do feel like they're a burden, or they feel like these college professors are not human, they're sort of like this, like these magical beings and just anyone listening, your professors are human, and they appreciate a heads up, and they appreciate you expressing to them what you need, and saying, and this is how I would like to take advantage of it. Don't leave it up to them to come up with a solution. Tell them this is what I need. And this is how I plan to take advantage of it. What can I do to make your life easier? Rachel Leja 49:34Right and that's, that's huge, because I think students, students often are used to the adults taking care of it in high school, ya know, it's it goes, goes on to all your teachers read the site up, let's do these things for the student. And at the college level, I think, you know, just showing them that you understand that there is an additional, you know, there's additional work involved for the professor, but ultimately it's going to be you know, little In comparison to the work that that student would have to do to overcome those challenges on their own and, and I think that it's important to remember that there are going to be some colleges that are more competitive or most competitive, that are not going to be able to offer students this level of individualized attention this level of accommodation. And that's, again, why it's so important to visit these these offices before you before you apply to schools. And, and even if you don't have a chance to visit before you've applied, when you get those acceptances, it's certainly an appropriate time to say I'd love to set up a meeting with you and talk about what this would look like. And you know, that can be done via zoom. We are all very zoom savvy now. So if that college is further away, you know, don't wait until you're on campus, I would say no matter what, get that ball rolling proactively.Hannah Choi 50:48And if you do, wait till you're on campus, please don't wait until midterms. Right?Rachel Leja 50:52Right. Yeah. If it's the second week, and you haven't met anyone yet, put it on here. Yeah, you've got to really lean in. Yeah, it's not like high school where the first two weeks are just like figuring out your schedule. Getting to know Yeah, they jump right. And hammer drops. Pretty quickly. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, I have a client who goes to a school where they're on seven week terms. And he has a quiz on the second day of class. Yeah, sounds about right. Yeah, he has readings due on the first day of class.Rachel Leja 51:19And that's a whole nother part of it for students is they've never experienced a syllabus and you know, self guided workflow, if you will, you know, recognizing that, it's, that's not the reading you're gonna do in class that day, that's the reading that's due that day, and you're expected to do beforehand, a lot of education around like how to read a syllabus, you know, and that's part of what those folks in the accommodations offices and those executive functioning coaches can do for students is, let's sit down. And let's look at each one of your syllabi for this semester, let's identify, you know, those, you know, those stress points where there's going to be a lot of things do at once, let's get ahead of that. Because, you know, extended time and college on assignments isn't a thing. It's called you start earlier. So, you know, really understanding how do i budget my time and plan? And also how do I create a course load that's going to allow me to kind of balance my energy. So it's not too reading heavy to writing focus, really having a sense of, of how those kind of Gen Ed requirements might, might pull on you as a student with those challenges. Hannah Choi 52:23Yeah, and that's actually something I meant to mention earlier is when you are connected with your advisor, and the accommodations office, they know teachers, and they know, you know, who might be a good fit for your particular brain. And then also just rate my professor.com make absolutely advantage of those things. Don't try not to base your schedule, or your classes on the schedule, like Yeah, okay, we all want an ideal schedule, right. But let's also take a look at, you know, the professor makes a huge difference.Rachel Leja 52:53And the ideal schedule for a teenager might feel like classes that start at three in the afternoon. But that is, you know, as I quickly found out as a student, you know, if you have classes that go till, you know, 7:30/8:00 at night, and then you still have work to do in your next class, the next morning is at whatever time you know, being really mindful to of your of your habits, your sleep schedule, what you need in terms of sleep and what you need in terms of downtime to because so much of what students don't consider when they're thinking about colleges is like, how I will have free time, right, what will I do with it? And how can I spend it in a way that's both productive when it needs to be but also, you know, refreshing and recuperative? It needs to be too.Hannah Choi 53:35Yeah, yep. So I think the the message that keeps running through this is start early on anything. Yeah, everything. Everything just start earlier than you think you need to build your independence, build some autonomy and use your external resources. Ask for help. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. Well, so what are you? What are you excited about in your, in maybe in your work or in your personal life? What's something that you're looking forward to?Rachel Leja 54:09Yeah. So professionally, I'm really looking forward to getting these early applications in.Hannah Choi 54:14Yeah.Rachel Leja 54:16A lot of my kids yeah, I tell them you this is the time of year when I'm, I have sleepless nights for you guys. So submitting those applications. I'm really excited about that. And having my kids get a little bit of a break too, because it's really stressful and it's hard to hard to log on with, you know, kids on Zoom and you can see it on their faces as they are ready to be done. So I'm excited for that for me and cool them. And personally, I'm a huge Halloween fan. Coming nice. I've continued to add decorations outside I'm really hoping I get more trick or treaters this year. We had a really great year the year before last we give up the full size candy bars around I love that and last year we had three two or treaters. So if you live in my neighborhood Yeah. Come by come by our house and it'll be all lit up and we've got candy for you. That'sHannah Choi 55:07Awesome. Yeah. And so if someone is interested in learning more about Macmillan and you in particular, how can how can they reach out to you? Rachel Leja 55:17Sure. So you can check out our website, that's Mcmillan. education.com. You can find out more information about our process our work with students of all ages, really. And you can find out any information about all of our counselors, we all have a little kind of bio and some some blogs on there too, for people to check out. And you can also take a look via our website, our own podcasts, we have wise advice for educational planning. And there are some episodes there that are geared towards kind of the college process. There's a great one on the essays and good ones on standardized testing. So that's another good free resource for families as well.Hannah Choi 55:55Thank you so much, Rachel, in good luck with Halloween. I hope you get more people!Rachel Leja 55:58Thank you. Thank you. Me too. I might put a sign out like Don't Don't forget about us. Yeah, we have full size full size candy bars. Yeah, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.Hannah Choi 56:08All right. Thank you. Thank you, Hannah. And that's our show for today. I hope you learned something I know I did. And in two or so years when my daughter starts her college search, wait a second. Oh my gosh, is it really only two years from now? Am I that old? Okay. Anyway, hopefully I'll be better prepared to support her. Do you know someone who is also that old? I mean, whose kiddo is also about to apply to college? Please share this episode with them. We will love you for it. And if you have any questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if I said as I said in the beginning, if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can help us out by giving us a boost with a five-star rating. And you can sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast And I realized I do not give our podcast behind-the-scenes people enough airtime. So here's a million thanks to Sean Potts, our editor and producer Justice Abbott, a marketing specialist and truly our everyday marketing hero and Angela Malloy, who helped connect me with Don McMillan and Rachel Leja at Macmillan education. Thanks for listening!

In this week's episode, I invited Eric Tivers, host of the popular ADHD ReWired Podcast, to join me on Focus Forward and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community and discussed some aspects of living a strategy-based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickle ball scoring, classic ADHD tangent. Stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric and about the high-quality services he and his team provide. Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis, and despite the time that has passed, the insights remain relevant. I'm delighted it's now October and ADHD awareness month so we can share this conversation with you all! Here are the show notes from today's episode:Hannah's guest appearance on ADHD ReWiredADHD ReWired Podcast2023 Annual International Conference on ADHDADHD Support Group SearchMy podcast episode with Dr. Jan WillerBeyond BookSmartHow to Keep Score in Pickle BallHow to Keep Score in TennisADHD ResourcesAdult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)CHADDBeyond BookSmart’s ADHD Success KitHow to Thrive with ADHD After a DiagnosisEp 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHDWomen’s ADHD Wellbeing PodcastContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to share a correction from our last episode, I mistakenly said that I had an appointment with a psychiatrist. Jan, who I interviewed caught this when she listened to the episode and helped me realize that I actually have an appointment with a licensed professional clinician, who in Connecticut anyway is qualified to evaluate people for ADHD. I don't know about you, but I find all of these titles quite confusing. But I am so glad I get to learn all about this and share it with you. Anyway, I wanted to share again what Jan taught me that psychiatrists are great for testing people with more complex brain issues. And people with master's levels degrees, who are qualified can diagnose ADHD even without a full neuro Psych Exam. I'm still going to pursue the test. Because you know me brain nerd. I'm super curious to learn more about how my own brain works. But please know that you absolutely don't have to do the same to get the help you need. Hannah Choi 01:22Okay, so it is still ADHD Awareness Month and I've got some exciting news to share. I will be attending the upcoming 2023 annual International Conference on ADHD in Baltimore at the end of November. I am headed there with three of my wise colleagues, Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, and Wendy Craven. We will have a Beyond Booksmart table in the exhibit hall. And we'll also be learning from some of the presenters who will be sharing their knowledge and experience with attendees. If you want to find out more about the conference, check out the show notes. There's a link down there. Hannah Choi 02:00And besides being all about ADHD, this conference has a special connection to today's guest. We are back with another ADHD themed episode for this month of ADHD awareness. At the end of the summer, I had the absolute pleasure of being a guest on the ADHD rewired podcast. It is hosted by the very funny and very smart Eric Tivers. We talked about finding success in college when you struggle with executive functioning skills. And when we spoke not only did Eric convince me that I had to go to the ADHD conference, okay, wait a second, convinced his way too strong of a verb. He just kind of mentioned it with enthusiasm. And of course, I was totally sold. So let's try that again. Not only did Eric inspire me to go to the conference, but he also shared that he'll be presenting at it on the topic of technology. Bonus. Okay, so, back to the meat of this episode, I invited Eric to join me on Focus Forward, and we talked about the common feelings of shame experienced by individuals with ADHD. We also explored the benefits of finding connection and support within the ADHD community. So keep listening to hear Eric share about the coaching groups and the adult study halls he offers to provide that essential support and community we discuss some aspects of living a strategy based life and take a little detour to talk about tennis and pickleball scoring, you know, classic ADHD tangent, and stick around to the end of our conversation to learn more about how to get in touch with Eric, and about the high quality services that he and his coaches provide. I really encourage you to check out the good work that he and his team are doing. You can also find links to his website in the show notes. Because of some timing and our Focus Forward hiatus, this episode was actually recorded back in May of this year, coinciding with my official ADHD diagnosis. And despite the time that has passed, the insights do remain relevant. I am delighted that it is now October so we can share this conversation with you all. Okay, on to the show. Hannah Choi 04:12So, hi, everyone. I'm here today with Eric Tivers, who is the host of the ADHD ReWired podcast and you do a lot of other stuff. So could you introduce yourself and maybe share what you do and short a brief explanation of how you even got to where you are today?Eric Tivers 04:36Sure, so I'll thank you for having me on. My name is Eric Tivers. I host the ADHD ReWired podcast. And, you know, we, I am a licensed clinical social worker. And I started ADHD ReWired back in 2014. When it was, you know, I didn't even know what I was really going to be dealing with it. It was sort of like I I know I have thoughts and ideas that I want to share. I don't really like to write, it's a struggle for me. So like podcast, and like when I was in grad school, I was really actually struggling with my ADHD. And I discovered podcasts around that. And I discovered this old, like, not even good quality podcast, but it was like raw and authentic. And I wanted you that one day, like that kind of stuck with me for a long time. Yeah. And, and then I mentioned, we launched the podcast, it first started as just a solo show. And then I sort of stumbled into an interview. And I was like, Oh, I like this way better. Because, you know, it's as trained as a therapist, like, I'm just a curious conversationalist, I guess. And it was, I just really enjoyed helping other people tell their story. And then sort of through that, I launched my first online coaching group and, and that wasn't even like a grand plan, either. That was sort of a, I had this idea. And it was, the idea came out of actually, like I was in therapy at the time. And I would like go to try to get to my therapist office, like about 20 minutes early, just so I can do the homework that I supposed to be working on. This is silly. You know, it's like I'm my clients, this whole working man, wish there something working just to have like, regular like check ins kind of touch points, just to kind of keep me on track throughout my week. And so I started looking online for stuff and like, there was nothing. There was no one doing anything like that. So I created that. That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, it was like, where it is now to where it was when I first heard the very first version of it. I don't know if you ever heard the idea that a few are not kind of you don't cringe at your like earliest stuff you put out there, like you waited too long to start. I definitely cringe at some of the first stuff like we did, like, we didn't even have like a concrete schedule for the first season of coaching group that we did. Like it was like every week, like alright, what's good for me, I Oh, my God, that's an awful idea.Hannah Choi 06:55But you know what I love I love that, that you cannot wait for perfection to start, just just start and then it will evolve into what it's supposed to be. Eric Tivers 07:06Yeah, so you know, now here I am. You know, we're recording this on May 5, I'll happy Cinco Demayo. And, you know, we're, I think I, we just released episode 480 something. And you know, and I have experimented, and I've done different iterations of stuff on the podcast, and it's been super fun. You know, and there's no way I would have been doing a podcast from 10 years. Now, if I didn't love what I'm doing, right. It's amazing. So these coaching groups, they just kind of they almost kind of life of themselves, like they know, they were feeling really fast. And then I started doing two coaching groups at a time the manager didn't three coaching groups at a time. And then I was burning out a little bit. So I scaled back at two. I closed my clinical practice to focus exclusively on the coaching groups. So we've had over 1000 people go through the program. We're on our, we just started at registration for our summer season will be our 33rd season.Hannah Choi 08:04Oh my goodness, congratulations. Eric Tivers 08:07Thank you. Thanks. Hannah Choi 08:07That is awesome.Eric Tivers 08:08Yeah. And so we've been we've been growing, I got a couple of coaches that work with me, and, you know, learning all the kind of the leadership stuff there, which is, it's way harder than I ever imagined it would be like, I gotta figure it out, then I'm like, no, no, no more to learn. So it's it is like, I'm going back for seconds and thirds of humble pie on a regular basis.Hannah Choi 08:33I have a colleague who always says, always learning and growing and I love that. That's so true.Eric Tivers 08:39Yeah. I mean, as soon as you think you, you know everything, then that's where you get into trouble.Hannah Choi 08:43Yes, that's right. So I love thinking about all the people in your that that you have encountered that are now probably so much more confident, and so much more sure of their own abilities, despite their executive function challenges, despite their ADHD, so congrats to you and everyone that works for you for creating that space for people.Eric Tivers 09:10Well, I definitely didn't do it. I'm I mean, I've had lots of lots of help lots of other people who do a lot of stuff sort of on the back end. And, you know, we have we have a very active alumni community too. And a lot of our a lot we have. And when I open up the alumni community, it's because people will kept like re signing up for the group to do it again. And and so people were asking, was there anything else we could do after this? And like, maybe, and so maybe three or four years ago, we started this, the alumni community, and it's been wonderful. We have a bunch of different of our alumni who are leading peer based sessions each week. And so it's really cool because it's like, I tell people, one of the best things I do for my own ADHD is this work because it kind of makes me think about it all the time after like, I can't go into autopilot. I think a lot of other people feel that same way. It's like when they and sort of give back and be in some kind of leadership role in the community, it helps them stay on top of their own stuff.Hannah Choi 10:06Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I find that as a coach, you know, just talking about it all the time with my clients, and, you know, trying to think of news, like help them come up with new solutions for whatever challenge that they're dealing with it, that kind of thinking becomes a habit, and then you just kind of do it for yourself or, yeah.Eric Tivers 10:27So yeah, so that's kind of when we have our we have an adult study hall, it's a co-working community, which, so that's, that's another thing we have been working on. So yeah, lots of lots of things in the fire and, you know, experimenting with different things. And you know, one thing that is that is constant is that things are always changing.Hannah Choi 10:47So something that you and I had talked about before we recorded was the idea of community. And I really think that, that you are creating that community with the work that you're doing. And I just, we just dropped an episode the other day, I interviewed two social workers and their coach. And we talked a lot about how important validation is, and how important finding your flock is. And so I'm sure through that experience, you are creating that in a way for people.Eric Tivers 11:28Yeah, you know, one of the things because people always ask me, like, Well, how do I know if I should do group? Or if I should do one on one? And, you know, I would I, I tell them, I have a strong bias towards group. Because there's, you know, I and I've done intensive one on one coaching with people. And, you know, I tell them that I'm kind of a sucker for, like, positive reinforcement. And when I see people doing like, like, profoundly better. To me, that's like, my big shiny gold star. Right. And with group there's, there's just something that's, you know, it's funny, I'm very science based person, but like, it's, I think it's just magic, what happens in group, I, because it is, you know, we see ourselves in each other, and we are so much more generous and compassionate towards others, others are having the same struggles. And then, you know, when we see that kind of what they're doing and where they're coming out, they're they're doing all these great things. And yet, they're being so hard on themselves. And then there's that recognition of like, oh, wait a minute. Like you have these these mirrors that are reflecting you, back to you. Right, except now there's no judgment being Hannah Choi 12:35Yeah. That's awesome. That's powerful. Eric Tivers 12:39that that me too, is super, super powerful. Yeah, and I always tell people to I'm like, I just want to be really clear before we, there's any, like, ideas, that I have all my stuff together, because I don't, I am working on all the same stuff, too. I mean, being consistent, you know, it's like, I get the planning and then I stop looking at the planning, right, I gotta come back to it. And so really, what I think what community has really done one of the strengths of, of community is resilience. It is a sort of a resilience incubator. Yeah, because we're kind of be inconsistent with ADHD, it's just, you know, it's and I'm not saying that, like, it's just is what it is, you know, but it's part of it's part of ADHD, the consistency. So what we can do is skip the part, when we've fallen off what we want to be doing, we can skip the part of beating ourselves up, and we can reach out for help as a ham struggling here. Yeah, well, we get when we can say it, when we can speak the thing that we're instead of like being silenced in silent and shame. I mean, that because that that shame piece it is it's significant, it is really significant. And when you're in a community of people who get it because they also live it and your non judgmental support. It's, it's really profound, you know, it's, it's kind of like a rabid onion pillar, right? If people come in for white, like, I just want to get my planning and time management stuff figured out. It's like, work on that. But keep keep an open mind, because there's a way like, you can't not deal with the shame stuff when you're dealing planning. And anything that at the planning of time management when you have ADHD. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's not just the planning. It's not just the time now.Hannah Choi 14:24Yeah, yeah. And that's something that we talked about in that conversation was how tightly wrapped our executive function skills are with our emotions, and how and how the context in which we are talking about is how coaching sessions can can often sometimes feel like therapy, and it's because you cannot, you just can't separate that. And so being able to, like you said, you have that mirror to reflect yourself back to yourself without that judgment is such a nice way of of dealing with those emotions. I'm not sure how to explain what I'm saying. And I'm sure you know what I mean. I just I love that. I love that. Eric Tivers 15:07Well, your executive, its executive functions are self. It's about self regulation. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:13Right. Yeah. And it comes down to it, you know,Eric Tivers 15:16I mean, it's, it's the self regulatory stuff that we have intentions of doing. And that impacts, like the things we're trying to do. I think like, like Russell Barkley talks about an executive functions, any goal oriented behavior that you sort of put out to the world, and it comes back to you in some way. So it's like, even if it's like, it's as simple as getting dressed, right? Like, your intention is, you gotta get up before you get dressed. Right. And, yeah, if you are successful with it, you got clothes on your body, right? Hannah Choi 15:42That's so funny. That's the example I always use. Like, you have some executive function skills, because you're wearing clothes. Eric Tivers 15:49Yeah, you know, are looking at like emotional self regulation, if you are employed. And you think that your boss is a jerk, and you let them know that and your goal is to get a promotion. And instead, you're actually shutting the door, because you can get yourself fired because you mouthed off to your boss, right? That ability to take a deep breath when you're in that that space. Like, you know, it's, it's hard. It's hard to do. Yeah.Hannah Choi 16:15Well, I, I haven't shared this yet on the podcast, but by the time people listen to this episode, they will know, I just got diagnosed with ADHD, which I am so happy about, because it has answered everything. And I'm sure this is the story that you've heard from so many people. And all of that has, over the past few weeks when I've been thinking about it, and I feel like I am calming my, I'm like giving my self a hug my past self. And like, you know, just and so and, and that whole shame piece. And the whole inner narrative really comes up a lot for people with ADHD or for people just who are struggling with anything, really, because there's this sort of this message that we receive from society that we're supposed to be just like, amazingly successful at everything all the time. And you have to like, especially as a mom, like you're supposed to do all these things plus, like have a really beautiful Instagram feed and be like selling cookies on the side or whatever.Eric Tivers 17:24And make it all look easy, right? Hannah Choi 17:26Yeah, yeah. And it's just not easy for anybody. And if you're additionally, you know, dealing with executive function challenges, if, because of any diagnosis, and it just makes everything a lot harder. So, yeah, so being able to being able to talk about it and to, and to address it in a really safe and encouraging and warm way is is really wonderful. So I'm really glad you're able to provide that for to your, to your coaching groups.Eric Tivers 18:02 It's so it's so interesting. First of all, congratulations on this.Hannah Choi 18:05Thanks. Thank you.Eric Tivers 18:07And you're in it's so interesting, too, because so many people who have such a wide variety of responses to Yeah, that diagnosis. And it's, it's really kind of striking, like how many people I've spoken with throughout the years who who've been professionals in the ADHD space, didn't think they had ADHD going. And then like, years and years later realize, I actually do, and it's so funny, because I have always like, was like, just thought that was a really like, Ha, what what would that be like to experience that? And I see it, because right now, and I have not gotten an official diagnosis. But I did recently take an online evaluation for autism. And I had a highly what I didn't mention is that part of my clinical practice, before I closed my clinical practice was specializing in autism. Okay, and so, you know, my, I have a 11 year old son who has has autism and ADHD. So it's like, you know, I used to speak and present on this stuff. And yeah, you know, in part of, and I was, I was mentioning at the top of the show, about, like, how, you know, leadership has been serving me some humble pie. And it because part of it's like some of the social stuff that I think I've been Miss reading and I'm like, right, and so like, I'm always someone who's always trying to do better. And it's like, if, and so what I'm sort of seeing a certain pattern, I'm like, okay, like, this is something other than like this than ADHD, like, I really tried to cultivate a culture of feedback in my community, with my team and yeah, I've gotten some little some hearts of your feedback, but like, thank goodness that some of my team has felt safe to Yeah, sure that I know. You know, it's sort of that that the only way I can sort of think about it as being like the the realization that maybe sometime Sam's coming off as an accidental a hole. And I'm just like, Oh my God. Yeah. And so it's been very humbling, recently something I'm still kind of working through. But you know, it's like, yeah, when we gain that self awareness, that that like, entry into a new space of awareness, that hurts like it. It is it is, you know, but I, you know, from the time I got diagnosed when I was 20 years old, I've been like, I'm this this sort of mission to keep uncovering blind spots. Because it's like, and I'm just understanding the concept that we all have blind spots. Yeah, right. Yeah. And knowing that, you know, that sort of like idea like, so if someone is not self aware, how do they know? Hannah Choi 20:49Yeah, I felt, and I don't know, maybe you feel this? It's almost freeing. I, as soon as she told me, you know, the results, I just felt this like, huge. Ah, okay. Now, I get it. And like you said, you're discovering things over the time, I have also been discovering things. And it's like, oh, that's why that happened. That's why I did that. And then I'm able to release myself of that burden of shame that I have been carrying for feeling so bad about that thing, whatever it was. It's kind of been like Christmas the past few weeks, I've just like opening up all these things. I hope you experienced the same thing with the air or maybe you already are with that. Eric Tivers 21:40Oh, I think I'll get I'll yeah, it's definitely a, it's like, hot, it's definitely been a little bit of a, it's like, I don't know, it's not like shocking, but it's, it's, I don't know, it's like, it's just humbling, it's what it's telling me where I can describe to describe her. And I was like, this feels very, very humbling. And just interesting. You know, it's, it's, if we are on, if we have that growth mindset, and we are open to feedback, you know, it's, I always tell people helping you to think that, like, the growth journey is a fun one. No, no, no, this is hard. This is our critical timeout for a little while. I tell you, you know, when anytime I have had big discoveries about myself, it has led to huge growth. And so I've always been open to trying to find those blind spots, even though I know it's gonna suck emotionally for a while. It has never, I've never not been grateful, in hindsight, for those discoveries. Hannah Choi 22:47And I see that a lot in my clients too. And I work with a lot of college kids and a lot, and what I've noticed is that a lot of them are still learning to be self aware. And they're still discovering aspects of themselves that they didn't know. And, and, and executive function coaching is such a great place to explore that it's such like a nice, safe, safe place, and so many different things that we can kind of test out and figure out and, and so much of my coaching comes back to asking why and so much of answering the question, why is becoming is by, you have to become self aware to answer that, why. And it can be really hard, like you said, it can be really hard to to admit, whatever the Y is, and, but that is the key to open the door to allow for that growth. And to, to be able to let go of whatever that shame is that you've been carrying around because of that challenge or limitation.Eric Tivers 23:45Yeah, it's I always tell my group members, like if you're not uncomfortable, like, lean in more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, you're not, you don't have to be sort of in that state forever. And it doesn't last forever. It's, it's sort of it's episodic, you know, it's, you go through periods, and then you, you know, at least for me, it's like, figuring these things out. And then spending years on on like, honing in the skills and the pieces around that, that I need to and then it's like, as you develop mastery around different things, then you kind of the process repeats like, oh, new discoveries. Oh, again,Hannah Choi 24:21Yep. Or, Oh, I just got I found mastery, but I'm sliding because of whatever and now let's discover a new way to get myself back back in the game and and to be okay with that.Eric Tivers 24:32You know, it's funny too, because, like, one of the things that that I'm that I'm actually trying to work on now is being treated less sarcastic in different interactions. I guess it's funny, I was I was talking to my partner yesterday about this cuz she's been kind of helping me through through some of this. And like, when she kind of gave me this feedback about my sarcasm, and I found myself wanting to hold on to like, like gripping. But start I love beings. It's funny. Yeah, but not it's not always received as well as I think you think it is like, yeah. All right. I'm gonna sit with that for a while. And you know, it's it's having that courage to ask others like, hey, like, is this been your experience that like in our conversations? Yeah, so it's having those those courageous conversations. I mean, that's really what it's, it's about. Yep.Hannah Choi 25:21And I don't know if you've experienced this as hosting a podcast, but I feel like I experienced that every time I listened to a new episode or listened to anything that I've ever recorded. Like I, I go through that, like, Oh, God, why did I say that? Or why didn't I say it this other way? And then But then I always go back and say no, okay, now you have a chance to, to learn from that and to grow from that and to step even more outside your comfort zone and to challenge maybe challenge what you how you did something before and yeah,Eric Tivers 25:55Yeah, you know, to me, like, I love absurdity. Like, that's just like, absurdity is my sense of humor. Or it was probably where I like sarcasm, but I just, you know, I'm learning to be more careful about that. But like, when I think about just like, brains are funny, glitchy and they are, like, you know, if we can, instead of being so hard on ourselves, like, why can't I do this, like, drive, we were talking before I hit record, like, I love playing pickleball I cannot remember the score during the game. For me, it is like to be in like one of those like baseball pitch counters and just like holding my other hand, butHannah Choi 26:35then you'd have to remember to use it.Eric Tivers 26:40And I always feel really at home when everybody else I'm playing with also can't remember the score. I'm just like, I think it'll be like, Well, what's your excuse? Because, you know, one of the younger ones there? And it's like, yeah, it's called ADHD.Hannah Choi 26:55It's not my age. Yeah. Oh, man.Eric Tivers 26:58It's it's funny. I'll, I'll say the score my head over and over again. And then one for one moment, I'm thinking about something else. And I forgot score. Hannah Choi 27:05Oh, my God, I feel you I just like relate to that so much. I just started, I started playing tennis and this a year ago, with my sister who's actually quite good at keeping track of the score, and I'm always like, I think I just need to play with her all the time. I'm the same way. I'm like, Alright, I got it. And I don't I actually and I don't even know which side of the court I'm supposed to be on right now.Eric Tivers 27:31With tennis is like the funny scoring it like, right?Hannah Choi 27:34Yeah, it's so weird. Yeah. And then if you play doubles in pickleball, it's even weirder, because then you have to say, like, if you're serving first or second, right?Eric Tivers 27:44Well, I typically only played doubles have, like, I don't, I don't want singles. I mean, it's a it's an amazing workout to play singles, because it's like, oh, my god, she has to be everywhere. I like doubles. So I don't know. It's but you're right. Because you have to say which, which, which serve it is.Hannah Choi 28:01It's too confusing for me. And we just play we just hit the ball around and be like, Yeah, we both won. Or we all win. Yeah, Everyone's a winner. Yes. What were we talking about? Speaking of forgetting things.Eric Tivers 28:22Brains are funny.Hannah Choi 28:23Brains. Brains. Yes, I love the brain. And I love helping people understand why they do what they do, because of their brains. And helping people learn strategies that can help them use their brains to their advantage instead of being sort of taken over by their brain. So like a lot of that emotional regulation is a huge part of my coaching. And, and I love just learning about it and teaching people about it.Eric Tivers 28:54You know, within that frame. There's this idea that I that I talk about my groups that, you know, if you're wanting to be successful, and you have ADHD, you have to learn how to bend the world to you. Because like, the world is not bending the other way. Like the world's not reaching out to say, Hey, how can I accommodate you? Right? Like, yeah, we get all this paperwork is really hard. Like, it's like planning this, you get it with paper, and it's, you know, your teacher tells you about it, you know, in the first day class never mentioned it again, like, right, we have to develop these strategies to really scaffold the things that we need around us. And be you being okay with that too. And that's such an important and I think for a lot of people a really hard thing because, you know, I always said who I am, we are not trying to get you to learn how to be normal. Like that is not our goal. Right? Like that is like that is our goal to make sure that that like you don't want that to be your goal, because that is like that will be a goal that you'll you're not going to achieveHannah Choi 29:57And we want to preserve your uniqueness, right. Yes. See?Eric Tivers 30:00Yes, yeah, you know, so whatever, like, whatever you need, like, just kind of figure out how to, you know how to advocate for it, how to ask for it, you know, when something that kind of informs a lot of the work that I do, and even my personal life was based on some work that I did when I was in grad school. And so it was around my dissertation, and it was looking at, what does it take for students with invisible disabilities and ADHD, learning disabilities, dyslexia, etc, to be successful in adulthood. And what they found is that it is not the diagnosis that is preventing people from having the same sort of measures of success compared to their peers, it's if they have high levels of self awareness, if they have self determination, and good self advocacy skills, like, if you look just at the sort of the outcome measures, whether it's income, educational attainment, just overall life satisfaction, you got those three things, when you have ADHD or something like it, right, you're going to do just as well, like, that doesn't mean that things aren't going to be sometimes harder, like they will be. But like, You got to be willing to do the stuff and make sure that you love what you're doing. Because that's another thing our ADHD, it's like, we don't really have that, that, you know, the luxury of doing work that we don't loveHannah Choi 31:22Right. Yes, yes. It's very hard to keep that going. Eric Tivers 31:27Right, right. I know for a little while, but youHannah Choi 31:31Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So much of that, that those those aspects that you named are part of figuring out, or you it's, you can find those when you have that opportunity to learn about yourself and ask those questions and discover the different aspects of you that yeah, they don't fit into this system of the world that is out there. And that, but then, like you said, That's okay. So let's figure out how we can just just embrace that and use it as a as a benefit and use it as a, you know, something that can take you to places that you might not go if you're more of a linear thinker, or if you are more of like a round peg in a round hole?Eric Tivers 32:19For sure, for sure. Yeah. Cuz it's, you know, managing life and you have ADHD requires coming up with 1001 Little strategies, like it really is. It's, and it's this idea of living a strategy based life. Right? It's like, when we were kids, okay, I'm struggling with that, right? What can I do? That didn't work? What else could I do? Alright, that worked for like two weeks, that's not working anymore. What else can I try? Right? It's, and if we can stay open to, you know, just being curious of what works, what's getting in the way, we'll get there. Maybe it's, I think one of the things that I think is helpful for us to remember with ADHD is that, you know, we want progress yesterday. You know, stick with it, like, you look back and serious of yours, and you'll see the growth. But if you're just like in the moment, like week to week, it can be really hard to see the growth. And if you're really doing the work, it can actually sometimes feel like you're doing worse, when you're actually doing better. And that's called a self awareness that is growing self awareness makes us feel like we're doing worse, even though we're not Hannah Choi 33:21Yeah, you know, something, how you mentioned this strategy based life. I remember when I told my colleague who is also the, the editor and producer of our podcast, Sean, who also has ADHD was diagnosed when he was 12. He said to me, I'm so surprised to hear that you have ADHD and I and he said, You have such good executive function skills. And that and I said, I think it's because I am exhausted from using strategies all the time. Like, all the time, I keep my shit together, for the most part, because I am constantly using strategies, which is, frankly, completely exhausting. And, and, and so often I find myself or have found myself saying, why can't I just do this without fill in the blank? And, and now I can say it's okay. At least you're doing it with that thing. You're not just like not doing it?Eric Tivers 34:21Yeah, and you know, and one of the things too, is is like, find me strategies, but then you got to adopt them are destined for to make them work for you. Yeah, you know, like, in our in our groups, we you know, we have a lot of these frameworks, but we really try to explain this as they think about everything we're sharing as sort of this is the sandbox for you, right? Like play with it and make it your own like you have this this worksheet for planning like you don't like the way that it's laid out, like, recreate it for yourself. So it like resonates with your brain, like break what we're doing. If we're telling you something that is different than what you do You want to do what's currently working? Ignore what we're telling you. Don't try to fix what's not broken. Yes, right.Hannah Choi 35:07Yes. Well, this has been so great talking to you. And, and thank you so much. You're actually the first person that I've told outside of my family, that I have ADHD but and it's not because of a shame place. It's just because I haven't. I haven't really said ADHD episode yet. And so I just kind of saving it for that. But it it's talking about community and, and, and hearing yourself in someone else's voice. I experienced the benefit of that today in our conversations. So I just like I said before, I'll say it again, I'm so glad that you're creating those spaces for people because I know that it's highly needed.Eric Tivers 35:54Well, congratulations. And it's it's it's super exciting. You know, it's it's just knowing that we have like, a hole that just opens up so many, like opportunities and things to explore that we can learn about when we have like, Oh, this is why we're, we're struggling, you know, yeah, great. Thanks. Because it really, you know, out of all out of all the disorders, really, I mean, it's, I think ADHD is one of the most manageable, but it could also be one of the biggest, you know, pains in the butt if you're not managing it, right, because it will remind you on a regular basis, you have ADHD, if you're not like paying attention to it. I tell people that we don't have the luxury to do left on autopilot. Like we will crash and burn. And if we think yeah, do like autopilot.Hannah Choi 36:40Yeah, I'm so glad there's that the stigma around being neurodivergent is really starting to break down and that more people are having these really important conversations. And I'm so glad that you have so many listeners, and I hope I start to have more listeners, because these conversations people need to hear them, they need to get that validation that it's okay to struggle. And there are there are options, there are questions that you can ask and answers that you can find.Eric Tivers 37:12You don't need to struggle alone, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 37:15So could you share your contact information and where people can find you, because I'm sure people are going to be really curious about learning more.Eric Tivers 37:24Yeah, best best place to reach me would be at my website, which is ADHDrewired.com. Since you are listening to this, you listen to podcasts. So you can also use whatever podcast app you're listening to and search for ADHD ReWired. And, you know, when we have our coaching groups, you know, our, I don't know, when this episode's gonna come out, but we we do them a couple times a year. In the end, they're intense, if you're looking for, like, if you're someone who does, well look almost like that boot camp style of like, Alright, I'm going to full immersion. Like, it's, you know, it's like a six to sometimes up to 10 hours a week, we do three sessions a week, you have a four person accountability team that you meet with twice a week where you do masterminds with, and then all the other stuff that we have available in our alumni community. So it's really designed to not just help you learn some skills, but to really, it's about, you know, the shame, resilience is about getting self awareness, and then, you know, having a safe space to practice learning skills.Hannah Choi 38:23I love that. And I have to put a plug in for your podcast. It's great. It's I love, I listened to a bunch of episodes and, and they're long, but the conversations are so interesting, and so relatable. And I love how many wide variety of topics you have. There's kind of something for everybody in there. Eric Tivers 38:43Well, thank you for doing the work that you're doing. This is wonderful. And thanks for letting me be on the other side of the mic. It's fun.Hannah Choi 38:49Yeah. Great. And I look forward to being on the other side of the mic with you as well, later on in the year.Eric Tivers 38:57Whenever that's on the calendar, whatever. Right now, so we have no idea when.Hannah Choi 39:03We have no idea. But it's happening. We know that yes, yes. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you, Eric. Take care. You too. Hannah Choi 39:12And that is our show for today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And if you know anyone who might relate to any of it, please share this episode with them. I hope we get to see you at the ADHD Conference in Baltimore. If you go stop by our booth number 112 in the exhibit hall and say hi. Until then you can reach out to me at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast and we'll let you know when new episodes drop and we will share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening