Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast Ep 30: ADHD or Not? How Discovering ADHD in Adulthood Changes Your Life (ft. Dr. Jan Willer)
Hey, we're back! I'm so excited to bring you the first of many new episodes in our 3rd season of Focus Forward. Considering it's ADHD awareness month, I wanted to explore something relating ADHD that we hadn't done before. In this week's episode, we're tackling adult ADHD and the life-changing journey of getting a late diagnosis. This episode is particularly special for me as it documents my own personal journey in discovering that I have ADHD (in real time!) This journey of revelation began with a conversation I had last year with Dr. Jan Willer - a clinical psychologist who specializes in supporting those with ADHD. After our conversation, I began to seriously suspect that I, too, might have ADHD. In this episode, we'll explore the difficult question of "do I have ADHD or not?" and the impact that getting a diagnosis can have on our life and sense of self. I hope you enjoy this one!
Resources Related to this Episode
ADHD Resources
Adult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1)
Beyond BookSmart’s ADHD Success Kit
How to Thrive with ADHD After a Diagnosis
Ep 13: How to Unlock the Superpowers of ADHD
Women’s ADHD Wellbeing Podcast
Contact us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
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Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi.
Hannah Choi 00:18
We are back after our summer break. Yay. Today's episode is super special. Not only is it our first episode of season three, but it is also our 30th episode. I know there are podcasts out there with hundreds and hundreds of episodes. But I just have to say I'm super proud of this achievement, and I'm so glad you're here with me today to celebrate. On top of all that fun stuff is also ADHD Awareness Month. In today's episode, I'm going to share some of my own ADHD story which all started when someone very close to me was diagnosed a couple of years ago. hearing their story got me thinking about my own life experience through an ADHD lens. I recorded the ADHD episode and have an excuse me had a couple of clients whose challenges I could relate to more than just a little bit of a coincidence. Dr. Sherrie All, the star of the Focus Forward episode 16 all about memory connected me with Dr. Jan Willer, a licensed clinical psychologist who lives in Chicago, and she has written two books for practitioners - Could It Be Adult ADHD?, and The Beginning Psychotherapist's Companion, I thought Jan would be a great person to talk with. Jan and I recorded twice, once back in January and the second time just last month in September. The first time we talked about ADHD and what it is, and then spent a while talking about my own experience and symptoms. In September, we met again to reconnect and talk about the post diagnosis experience, and how people can both support themselves or the people they love who have ADHD. So today's episode is all about ADHD. And because it's ADHD Awareness Month, I hope my story helps someone out there find the confidence to go get tested. As you'll hear it has been a positive and life changing experience for me. So first up is our conversation from January.
Hannah Choi 02:20
Hi, Jan, thank you so much for joining me on focus forward.
Jan Willer, PhD 02:25
I am really excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Hannah Choi 02:29
This is take two right? We tried last week but my, I'm a migraine person and my migraines got in the way. So I'm glad we're able to do this today. Glad I migraine free today. Yeah, so we are going to talk about ADHD in adults and what that experience is like for people and how they got there. And so can you share a little bit with our listeners about why about why I'm talking to you about ADHD?
Jan Willer, PhD 03:03
Sure, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that. Well, I've been interested in ADHD for a good while. And actually a number of years ago, a psychiatrist that I would refer to would start referring adult ADHD clients, to me just kind of out of nowhere. And at that point in time, I didn't know very much about ADHD in adults. And just as a little sidebar, graduate schools usually don't teach very much about adult ADHD. And so every mental health professional out there who knows much about it has taught themselves and gone to seminars and that type of thing. But anyway, so I started teaching myself about it. And the more I learned, the more interested I became, and, you know, it's just a population of folks who really are undertreated a lot of the time and a little education and a little help with executive functioning issues can go and maybe a little bit of medication can really go a very long way in terms of helping people feel better and feel like they're functioning better as well.
Hannah Choi 04:16
I see that in the clients, the adult clients that I've worked with, where they have experienced exactly that with a little bit of medication, a little bit executive function, coaching, and just like a lot of knowledge, it's really made some big differences. What are what brings someone what are the questions that people have when they come to say, like, I think I might have ADHD?
Jan Willer, PhD 04:41
Well, a lot of the time, people will come to me and they've already been wondering about whether they have ADHD for a long time. And many people who've had ADHD their entire lives, were not diagnosed as children. And it used you know, back in the old days, it used to be thought that if it wasn't really obvious as a child, and the child wasn't pretty impaired from ADHD, then a person who is an adult couldn't possibly have ADHD. Now we know now that that's not true, because there's a lot of folks who don't get diagnosed for various reasons. Maybe because they just had inattentive type ADHD, and they were well behaved kids. And so, and they were, you know, pretty smart, and they just kind of flew under the radar and their grades weren't amazing, but they weren't disrupting the class, and they were just kind of daydreaming. And, you know, nobody really noticed that they were having some learning issues. So a lot of the time, those are the folks that kind of end up coming to us. But also, sometimes people may have had some hyperactivity as a kid, but their parents, and their schools really recognize that they need a lot of exercise. And so they would get put into sports and all kinds of camps that gave him plenty of exercise and this, so they coped, okay. And they didn't have behavior issues. So, you know, in the past, most of the folks with ADHD who are identified as children were people who had behavior issues, and usually white boys as well. But now we realize that anybody could have ADHD. And, and I think that is that information has gotten out into the popular consciousness. And so people are soaking that up and going, Oh, wow, maybe I have that. That sounds kind of like me. I just thought it was a flaw I had, but maybe I have ADHD.
Hannah Choi 06:46
So something that I've noticed, just in my observations of people talking about, if they have ADHD, or if they wonder if they do, I have noticed. And I think that there is a stigma around around it around being diagnosed with it and around having those challenges. Do you see that in the people that come to you do, do they express those hesitations?
Jan Willer, PhD 07:16
You know, I think it varies a lot by the age of the person. Because it seems like, you know, young adults have are much more knowledgeable about people who are neurodivergent, and often seem to have a lot less stigma about that, you know, they understand that people is some people have ADHD, some people are autistic, it's, you know, it's not necessarily such a big deal to them. It's just more a recognition of individual differences. But for people who are, you know, middle aged and older, for sure, and possibly also younger than that, it kind of depends on you know, the environment the person grew up in, they're often did grow up at a time where there was a lot of stigma about having ADHD. And there were a lot of stereotypes about people who had ADHD, which were often wrong. And there may not have even been an understanding that ADHD lasted to adulthood. And so they've often just internalized a lot of shame about some of their life challenges that are very, like completely related to ADHD.
Hannah Choi 08:30
Can you just talk a little bit about what ADHD is for any listeners who might just kind of have like a surface knowledge of it? And maybe we can help any listeners who might be questioning whether they they might and then maybe some, maybe you could share like some symptoms or some characteristics that aren't necessarily fully known? I mean, that the name of it ADHD, like is Attention Deficit Hyperactive disorder, but like you said before, many people can have ADHD but be the inattentive type. So maybe just share a little bit about what it is.
Jan Willer, PhD 09:09
Sure, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the first type of symptom of ADHD that was really recognized was the hyperactivity. And you know, if you've ever seen a hyperactive kid, that's pretty obvious. I mean, that's a kid that's just bouncing off the walls full of energies, maybe really talkative. And so, and then over time, it became clear that a lot of those kids also had some challenges with paying attention, despite, you know, in addition to their high energy level and tendency to bounce off the walls, and then it became clear that there are kids who had the inattentiveness alone. They didn't have the hyperactivity, but they still had a hard time paying attention consistently, especially in school and that was kind of where it was the most obvious but, you know, sometimes that home to their parents would say do this or that and they just kind of lose track of it didn't really absorb that information, or procrastinated, which can be a symptom of ADHD too. And then, you know, as things went along, people started to recognize that for most people, they do not grow out of ADHD. Most ADHD does last to adulthood, not every single one. But most, for sure. And as they recognize that ADHD, lastly to adulthood, they would see that adults with ADHD had a lot of executive functioning problems. And I'm sure that your listeners have a good understanding by now of what executive functioning. So I'm not gonna go into detail about that, because I'm sure you've covered that in a lot of different podcasts. Yeah. And the they actually, many experts actually consider the executive functioning problems to be more disabling for people who have ADHD as adults than either inattention or hyperactivity. Yeah. And we'll see that too. Sure. And when you look back at people who have ADHD as adults, it turns out that the executive functioning problems are a lifelong problem. They're just less obvious in kids, because with kids, the adults in their lives, be it their teachers and parents, you know, other other adults will structure their lives for them. And so they don't have to do as much executive functioning as an adult. That's right. And often, when people who have ADHD go off to college or leave home for the first time, they may, they often do have a lot of struggles initially, because they're not used to doing their own structuring for themselves.
Hannah Choi 12:02
Yeah, absolutely. I see. And most of my clients are college kids. And that's exactly what I see. Every pretty much in every every client, like, Wow, a lot of things were structured for me in high school. And I thought that I could, you know, just keep up doing the same thing once I got to college and wait a second. Not exactly working out as I thought it would.
Jan Willer, PhD 12:24
Yeah, and things can really fall apart pretty fast. Because nobody's telling them to get up. And people who have ADHD have a tendency to be night owls. And so, and especially, and sometimes it's so extreme that they could even get a diagnosis of delayed sleep phase disorder, which is a sleep disorder. And so that difficulty getting up to go to things, stay up till three in the morning, hanging out with friends playing video games, whatever, you know, and then they don't want to get up until 11. And class was it 9:30? Yeah, yeah. So there's can be a lot of different pieces to the difficulties that college students can have.
Hannah Choi 13:07
I know a big part of ADHD for kids and adults. But maybe we can talk about adults here is the self regulation and emotional regulation. How, how does that show up? What do you see in your practice?
Jan Willer, PhD 13:23
Yeah, I mean, that is indeed a common problem. And about half of people who have ADHD as adults do have this emotional dysregulation problem. And what it consists of is, when people have something stressful, occur, they tend to be especially reacted to that. And it could be just kind of ordinary stuff, like somebody cutting you off in traffic, or it could be something bigger, like, you know, some family crisis or something, or, you know, just a minor change, like, you know, they were looking for peppers in the refrigerator, and they didn't have any, and they were going to, that was going to be a key part of what they're going to make for dinner. And so these stressors, whether they're big or even little, can lead to some pretty intense emotional reactions for the person and the person can feel irritated and frustrated and aggravated. And, you know, depending on the individual, some people have kind of learned to hold all that in because they've realized that other people don't react well, when they're next to somebody who's really, you know, having an outburst about a minor stressor, but other people don't have the, you know, ability, at least in that moment to hold that in and may have, you know, a verbal outburst or a temper outburst or something in response. And that can be, you know, really challenging for the person because they look around at everybody else and they're like, wait a minute, these other people are having stressors to, but I'm reacting somewhat differently from them. And again, this is sometimes where there's shame or embarrassment. Because the person then feels bad about themselves for having a strong emotional reaction when other people might not. Yeah. But unfortunately, it can be a part of their ADHD struggle.
Hannah Choi 15:22
That's so interesting. I didn't ever know that, that that how closely connected that was to ADHD?
Jan Willer, PhD 15:29
Yeah, it really should be a symptom that is in the official diagnostic manual, but it's not.
Hannah Choi 15:36
What are some other symptoms that people might not know about?
Jan Willer, PhD 15:40
You know, that's a really good question. One symptom that I actually see all the time, is that often people who have ADHD have a really hard time getting to sleep. And they lie down in bed, and they're ready to go to sleep. And their brain just starts going and going and going. And it's very active. You know, folks who don't have ADHD, when they lie down and go to sleep, their brain is kind of like slowing down and not very full of stuff. As long as they're not stressed or anxious about something, yeah. But a person who has ADHD, their brain just tends to be at very active all the time. And that's not true for everybody. But it's true for a very large proportion of people who have ADHD and, and their brains activity will keep them awake. And they may stay awake for an hour when they're trying to go to sleep with their brain just churning over all kinds of different stuff. The default mode network is a network that so the brain has many different networks of connectivity. And the default mode network is one of those. And they call it that because they people used to think that if you weren't doing something, then your brain wasn't thinking about anything. Now, anyone who has tried to meditate knows that that's ridiculous. Yes. Because of you not doing anything, which is what meditation is, to some extent about your brain is full of ideas. And yeah. So so that's the default mode network kind of churning up ideas and thoughts about your life and how we what's just going on with you what you plan on doing just any old random thoughts about your life. And that area does tend to be extra active and people who have ADHD, which is I like you're pointing out the connection to the sleep onset problem. Yeah, right. Also, that area is supposed to be kind of quieted down, when you're working on a task, that since that area tends to be extra active, and people who have ADHD, often one piece of their challenges with distractibility is that they are distracted by their own thoughts when they're trying to work on things. Right. And so they're really trying to focus that their own thoughts are interrupting their thought process. And a final thing that is probably related to the default mode network in ADHD is that people who, there's a little bit of research, unfortunately, there is really isn't enough research on the positive aspects of ADHD. But there is a little bit of research indicating that people who have ADHD tend to be more creative than the average person, and tend to be really great at brainstorming and thinking up lots of ideas.
Hannah Choi 18:41
I was reading about that. And, and the article was saying that it may be because they're able to not gonna remember the whole brain part of it, but they're able to make connections that might not necessarily be able to be made by someone as easily if they don't have ADHD.
Jan Willer, PhD 19:03
Yeah, absolutely. Sort of. Yeah, that thinks ability in that part of the creativity of the ADHD brain for sure. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 19:10
Yeah. Huh. It's interesting that if there's one thing that you said was like, not everybody experiences that not being able to fall asleep bit. So what do you think? When when, like, not everyone with ADHD has all the same symptoms? And like, why do you know why that is? And no, it's just probably because we're just all different. But it's so interesting that some people can quiet their default mode network and then others can't.
Jan Willer, PhD 19:41
Yeah, it is kind of fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I think that part of that has to do with the fact that ADHD, there's no one gene that ADHD is carried on right there. There's a lot of research about genetics and ADHD and a lot of it on us Sleep is way too technical for me. But yeah, I can read enough of it understand that there are dozens of genes at least that affect whether a person has ADHD. Okay, and if so to help what degree? Yeah, because some people have a lot of ADHD, some people have a little bit and some people have none. So, right. Right. And that, you know, plus everybody has a different life that they've been through was raised a different way. And so, you know, sometimes I see people with, you know, pretty significant ADHD symptoms, but they have no problem keeping track of their calendar, because they've had folks working with them their whole life about how important that is. And they've really got the skills down.
Hannah Choi 20:43
Right. Yeah, I imagine, like so much of your about of how your ADHD affects you, as an adult, is decided by just the strategies and the skills that you've learned and the awareness that you have of yourself and the impact that your behaviors have on your life and on others. And with kids. It's harder for them because they they haven't learned to that. Yeah, they just haven't been around long enough to, to kind of know that sort of stuff.
Jan Willer, PhD 21:19
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, with my client, adult clients, I don't work with kids. I tell them that one advantage that they're bringing to working with their ADHD is maturity. Yeah. Right. Because having that insight into how some of these challenges of ADHD have affected their life negatively, provides a lot of motivation to work on.
Hannah Choi 21:45
I interviewed Nancy Armstrong, who was the executive producer on a documentary called "The Disruptor"s and, and that her documentary, really highlights, it definitely explores the challenges. And it also highlights the positive side of ADHD. And that's and their work. Yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great watch. They're working really hard to dispel a lot of the myths around ADHD and, and help people find the positives. So in your opinion, what are some of the positives?
Jan Willer, PhD 22:19
Well, we've already mentioned a lot of them, right? The artistic creativity can be one of them, out of the box, thinking of being more of a divergent thinker who's able to connect a lot of different things. I think that because of people having that out of the box thinking, they're often really valuable team members. And, you know, I personally have, of course, I have no proof of this. But my personal belief is that the reason that the genes for ADHD survive in the population is because it's so helpful in any group of people to have somebody who is really creative and full of all kinds of ideas and thinks about things in a really different way. And, you know, to some extent, that might be true of autism as well.
Hannah Choi 23:12
So it's really interesting talking with you. And I know, it was a conversation that we had the other day before we came on, and in all the research that I've been doing, and all the clients that I've worked with, I'm realizing the more and more I read and the more and more I talk with people that I really think that I probably have our head like had as a child and still have the inattentive type. So much of, of what I've read, and just things that people have said, I'm like, Oh, my God, that just, I feel validated when I hear that and so it makes me wonder, you know, maybe that was something that I could have gotten help with as a child and, and, and can still now like as an adult, find things that helped me. I'm sure that you've heard a lot of people come into your practice and say something similar.
Jan Willer, PhD 24:12
Absolutely.
Hannah Choi 24:17
Okay, so in the interest of time, and potentially embarrassing myself more than I'm comfortable with. I'm going to stop the recording of a conversation here. Right after this. I asked Jan, if she'd be open to talking with me about my own challenges. We talked for a while about my life and what I struggle with and why I think I might have ADHD. It was pretty eye opening and extremely validating. She encouraged me to get a formal diagnosis from someone in my state. After chatting with Jan, I set up an appointment with my primary care physician who is an internal medicine doctor. I was really optimistic on the appointment day but things didn't go as planned. I was reminded of something that Dr. Theresa Cerulli said about how internists will not usually entertain a conversation about ADHD, and will generally refer you to a psychiatrist, which is exactly what mine did. Feeling deflated because I knew a psychiatrists fee would be greater than what I could afford. I remembered my own advice to clients. What would this look like if it were easy? So I reached out to Jan again, for more guidance. Do I need to see a psychiatrist is a full neuro Psych Exam necessary? And who else can I consult besides my doctor? Jan assured me that a full neuropsych exam wasn't required. She explained that due to the shortage of psychiatrists available for ADHD support, other providers can diagnose it without a formal neuropsych exam. And this boosted my confidence to search further. And then I found a local psychiatric nurse practitioner online through psychologytoday.com, which is a great resource for that kind of stuff. We met for over an hour, she asked me all about my health history and my childhood, my college years and my coloring challenges. And we went through the adult ADHD Self-Report scale together, which was hilarious. I kept bursting out laughing at many of the questions because it was me but on paper, and I kept wondering "Was the person who created the scale living in my brain?" Initially, I wasn't sure I wanted to use medication. But after learning about the ADHD brain and how it works, I was more open to it. I remembered something else that Dr. Cerulli said, at least have the conversation about medication options. Whether you use them or not, is up to you but have that conversation. I also felt confident trying medication because I already did all the things you're supposed to do, right? I eat well, I get a lot of exercise, my sleep habits are good. I had created systems that work really well to support myself in EF areas that I struggle with. But honestly, I was exhausted, forcing myself to use them all the time and not being as successful as I probably should have. And honestly, I was being pretty mean to myself inside when I struggled. So something had to change. So I decided to try using ADHD medication. I knew I wasn't interested in stimulants because I wasn't sure how they'd work with the anxiety that I already dealt with. And considering my history, Sophia prescribed the non stimulant Wellbutrin initially, it actually worked really well. But unfortunately, it increased the number of migraines I was having. And interestingly, there is a connection between migraines and people with ADHD. And I'm actually having an appointment with a with a neurologist coming up. And I want to ask more about that and learn more about that connection. So anyway, I switched to another non stimulant called Strattera. And that's actually been working great. It's made a huge difference in reducing the constant chatter in my head until it quieted down in there, I seriously had no idea how much noise I had in my brain all the time. I've also noticed that it's so much easier for me to get started on my work and get back to it if I get interrupted. And I can also stay focused on my work for longer periods of time. And following through on stuff that I don't want to do is not so painfully difficult anymore. And I remember Bob Shae telling me that his meds make it easier to use all the tools he had already implemented. I agree, Bob, I completely agree. I have spent a lot of time reflecting you know, me, I love that self reflection and thinking back to choices that I made and things that I did that were likely because of ADHD. I've been reading and listening to podcasts and talking with people about their ADHD. And I am learning so much. I decided to reach out to Jan again to talk with her about what comes up for people once they've been diagnosed, and what supports will help. We met just recently to record and realize it had been almost nine months since we first talked. Let's check in to hear what we talked about.
Hannah Choi 29:17
So when we last talked, I asked you about my own experience with ADHD and I really am grateful to you for taking that time with me to walk me through that a little bit uncomfortable, and a little scary conversation and and it's just such a great example of this idea that when we step outside of our comfort zone we end up finding magic and and discovering things that we never knew or we knew about ourselves but we didn't like have words for it. And it's just been who I got chills it's really actually been life changing and I'm I am so grateful for it. So thank you.
Jan Willer, PhD 30:03
Oh, you're welcome. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I do find that a lot of people really appreciate knowing that they have ADHD. Because it has so much explanatory power for what people have been struggling with. And like you said, sometimes people don't even have the words, yeah, for all of their struggles. So being able to talk about it with a professional and have that person say, Oh, well, people who have ADHD often struggle with this, and this and this and kind of give, give the person the words and the ways to conceptualize it. And then they'll be like, Yes, I do that. And yes, I have that problem, too. And yes, that's so hard for me, really can kind of make a difference in terms of the person understanding themselves, and being able to communicate with their loved ones. And people they work with even the whether they come out about having ADHD or not, they can still say things like, it really doesn't work very well, for me to have a lot of interruptions when I'm trying to work on a project.
Hannah Choi 31:13
Yes, yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great point that you brought up. And something I wanted to talk about is that whole, you know, disclosing at work type of thing, because so I, you know, I'm very lucky, I work in a job where, you know, I wasn't even an issue for me to disclose, they were just like, okay, yeah, that's great. What's next, you know, and then, and, in fact, it, it probably really helps me as a coach to know and to relate with my clients even more. And, and so I'm very lucky that I work in an environment that is not only extremely accepting of neurodivergence, but also we are in like, the literal business of supporting people who are neurodivergent. And then you know, there's there's other people who may or may not feel safe disclosing that at work. And so I really love that, that that suggestion that you gave just then of how you can disclose your needs without necessarily disclosing your diagnosis. How do you support client, your clients who come to with that struggle?
Jan Willer, PhD 32:26
Yeah, well, you know, everybody who has ADHD is a little bit different. And so you know, depends on some people work better at home, some people work better in the office, it kind of each person has different situations where they concentrate better. Sometimes that people do better in the office that also certain areas of office are too noisy or distracting. And so they need some help with that. On occasion, I have written accommodation letters for people. And it doesn't always work 100%. But usually, they are able to do something that's helpful to the person. Like I had someone I was talking to once whose cube was right by the coffee machine. And you can imagine how distracting that would be for anybody, much less a person who has ADHD, and they were able to get moved to an area that was a lot quieter. And that made all the difference in terms of being able to be efficient at work.
Hannah Choi 33:29
Yeah, and I imagine a big part of it is self efficacy and being brave enough to speak up about it. So having someone like you to maybe work through a script, or just kind of talk out what an accommodation might be helpful. I'm, I'm sure that is a big, a big part of people's experience.
Jan Willer, PhD 33:50
Right. And, you know, people can kind of take two different approaches to that. I mean, one is kind of the official HR approach, you know, going in, I want reasonable accommodations for my ADHD, which legally is considered a disability even though you know, people can discuss whether they could consider it that way or not. And so that's one approach. And the other approach is to say, okay, to think about, well, how is my ADHD interacting negatively with the work environment? And how can I verbalize what my needs are? If I don't feel comfortable or the HR situation isn't optimal in a way that people can hear it and might be willing to work with me on it? Tomorrow, kind of informal approach.
Hannah Choi 34:42
And I bet when you have an like, I imagined maybe like before someone gets a diagnosis, they still are aware of what their challenges are. Maybe after they get the formal diagnosis. They're like, okay, that might give them some confidence to to ask for what they need there. There's an actual reason why they need that. It's not just that they're bad. They're, you know, there's a real reason.
Jan Willer, PhD 35:08
Right, and I think you're bringing up a really important point is that a lot of people, you know, like yourself managed to kind of fly under the radar their whole life. And they knew something was going on, they knew they were somewhat different from everybody else. But it often tends to be very internalized. And the person tends to feel like, well, I'm struggling, and all these other people aren't struggling, therefore, there's something wrong with me. And so that, you know, that, then they just kind of end up what caught doing what many people call masking, which is trying to pretend that there isn't an issue, even if they are struggling, and a lot of people can be very successful at pretending. But even though even though inside they're really feeling kind of miserable about
Hannah Choi 35:59
Yeah, there's a there's a, an internal cost. That is it's maybe not visible, but they are feeling it. Exactly, yeah. Yeah. That That reminds me of, we recently did a webinar about ADHD, and about for people who were newly diagnosed and are curious. And a parent asked about their child who was, I can't remember, I think he was like, older teen young adult kind of college age. So the parents said, he had just been diagnosed, and was feeling like it was a negative thing. And, and, and she was wondering how we could or how she could support him to learn about about it, and maybe see it in a more positive light. And it just made me think like, he's probably spent a lot of his life internalizing all of those things, then you find out, Oh, there's a reason for it. Oh, then this must be a bad thing. So how do you support people who are how can we even our listeners, if we have people, you know, loved ones in our lives? who have been diagnosed? How can we support them? In seeing that it's not all bad?
Jan Willer, PhD 37:21
Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways to look at this. I mean, one way to look at it is to say, well, you know, if you if you think about it from a disability perspective, which is, you know, one angle to look at things is to say, Okay, well, it's a disability that makes it difficult for this person to learn, in certain situations difficult for the person to work in certain situations take information in and at times, you know, all kinds of other challenges that can come up with that. But does that, does that have to be viewed in a negative and judgmental way? Right, you know, the brain is an organ to the brain, you know, can have issues just like any other organ can have issues. And so, in a way, that's one way of conceptualizing ADHD and thinking about it in terms of not having stigma towards a person who has an illness or a disability or something like that, because nobody deserves that, that's, you know, that's ableism. And that's wrong. So, another way of thinking about it, which I think is is equally valid, is thinking about it in terms of being neurotypical versus neurodivergent. And so, you know, when we think of people who are neurotypical, we're typically talking about a person who doesn't have ADHD, and a person who doesn't have autism. And so, those folks at you know, the world is built around people who are neurotypical is not built to accommodate people who are neurodivergent. And so that's part of the difficulty that people who are neurodivergent have is that it's just not, it's not built for how their brain operates, nothing is built for how their brain offers and the things that are valued, don't tend to be the things that the people who are neurodivergent have to offer. So for example, some of the things that a person who's neurodivergent have to offer our, the, their incredible ability to be really interested and passionate about things and just really dig in and get into something and understand all the incredible connections between they're taught that topic that they're into and everything around it, they're great at understanding things in a network kind of interconnected way. Whereas kind of in this is obviously a little over-simplified, but a person who's neurotypical tends to be more of a linear thinker, whereas a person who has ADHD tends to be more of a, you know, kind of a divergent, tangential type thinker. And also people who have ADHD are often very creative in some way or another, you know, they can be creative in terms of problem solving, coming up with ideas, brainstorming, they also can be very creative in terms of the arts. So, and they're just great at coming up with ideas that no one else ever thought of, you know, and those are not things that the school system was really searching for.
Hannah Choi 40:45
So help, helping somebody with ADHD who maybe has recently been diagnosed recognize that ability that they have, and recognize how they can use that in a work situation or school situation. Yeah, while simultaneously advocating for themselves to somehow fit successfully into that neurotypical system.
Jan Willer, PhD 41:11
Right, the neurotypical world. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 41:14
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that broke my heart that he that that boy felt that way. Because, and maybe it's just age, right. So I, I found out that I was, you know, I got the answer to all of my questions when I was 46. And so I, I might, you know, I'm just like, just have more life experience, and I'm more mature, I guess. Right. So I was able to, like, kind of go back and, and hug the 20 year old version of me that, you know, didn't understand. And he is that 20 year old version of himself. And so he doesn't, he just has what other people are telling him. So I guess that's not really sure where I'm going with this, but I like, but it just makes me think of when you've been diagnosed, finding people who really support you recognizing your strengths. And, you know, and following your strengths, following your talents, finding a work environment, or a school environment that is willing and open to supporting you as an neurodivergent thinker. With an ADHD brain or an ASD brain, then, you know, that that would I imagine just lead to a better experience, like I'm having, you know, the fact that the work that I do is very well suited for me.
Jan Willer, PhD 42:37
Yeah, and I think people who have ADHD are especially well suited to professions where there's always something new to learn, there's always a problem to solve. There's always a new person to talk to, you know, and that, and they're really great at engaging in all of those new things that are coming at them and love, usually love learning new things. Yeah. Which I think is really cool.
Hannah Choi 43:05
It is. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so I was just listening to Ned Hallowell he was on, on a podcast that I really enjoyed listening to with a woman called Kate, I can't remember her last name, but she's a British woman who has a podcast called the ADHD, women's well being podcast, and she interviewed him on there, and he was talking about, and I'm sure he's talked about this and other things, I just happen to hear it on there. But he was talking about how important it is for people with ADHD to, to, to do things that, that they're really interested in and find a job that they are good at, because it's something that they're good at, or because it's something that they're interested in. And to break free from these, like, preconceived notions that society has, like, oh, you need to become this or that or maybe your parents expectation or, or your social circle or whatever. And, and this just another chance, another op op, another situation where a person has to say like, Hey, I might not do things the same as everybody else.
Jan Willer, PhD 44:12
Absolutely. Right. And doing things different in a different way. Doesn't mean you're doing things in a worse way. Hmm, I like that. Right? Different isn't?
Hannah Choi 44:21
It's just yeah, it's just different. Yeah, I like that. Yeah.
Jan Willer, PhD 44:27
And, you know, often I'll tell my clients who have ADHD that it's important to work with it rather than against. Yeah, don't fight it and feel like I have to do everything the way exactly the way that a neurotypical person does it or I'm not successful. Yeah, do it in a way that works for you and your own particular brain. And that's great.
Hannah Choi 44:52
Yeah, just I have a friend who has ADHD and so we've just been talking a lot lately and, and we were talking about how Oh, how it's so fun talking with another person who has ADHD because you can get really tangental and tangential and come right back and other person just follow right along. I had a client this morning, she's like, sorry, I'm all over the place. I'm like, Don't worry, I, I gotcha. Gotta take a lot of notes as you're going, because otherwise I'll forget what you say. But, uh, mowing you? Yeah. And I guess that deer? Do do you see in your clients desire to connect with other people who have ADHD or to find a social support that way?
Jan Willer, PhD 45:39
You know, I think it's interesting that you're bringing that up, because I have certainly have noticed that a lot of my clients who have ADHD do tend to have friends who have ADHD, and sometimes even spouses, but the spouses can go either way, sometimes they have ADHD, and sometimes they want to be with somebody who's very organized. Like, they want to be with a really neurotypical person, balance them out. Yeah, exactly. But they do tend to really, you know, kind of enjoy that bouncing around. Yeah, seasonally, that happens when two people have ADHD. It's an interesting phenomena.
Hannah Choi 46:18
It's fun! We're fun people.
Jan Willer, PhD 46:20
Yeah, I mean, people who have ADHD tend to be full of life. And, you know, it's really and spontaneous and have lots of interesting things to say. And you know, that's cool. That's a good friend.
Hannah Choi 46:35
Something that, that I've been thinking about lately is the anxiety that comes along with ADHD and how, for me, realizing how connected they were was so freeing, and it's truly incredible how much less anxiety I am experiencing now. And I remember you said that you said to, you often encourage people to explore the ADHD diagnosis when they have it, where they have anxiety. And at night, I really can speak to that it made a really big difference for me. And then I think back to my childhood. And I remember I went to the summer camp, and they gave away awards at the end of the summer. And the award that I got, which I was 12. And now looking back on it, oh god that my poor 12 year old self, the worst they gave me was the "What If Award". And because I always used to say, well, what if what if this happens? What if that happens? I was really anxious. And it nobody said like, "Wait a second? Why is she wondering all the time What if?" And now I realize it's because my brain was thinking of all the things, all the things. And I just so when I realized that I was in the car today while I was driving. Oh, so I went back to my 12 year old self. It's okay. We get it now. Yeah, so that's been that's been like a really nice experience that I've had is being able to go back and just kind of forgive myself a little bit.
Jan Willer, PhD 48:09
Yeah, yeah, it really it does take a while to kind of turn over all the things that happened that were related to the ADHD, and put it all in context, isn't it?
Hannah Choi 48:20
Yeah. And it's, yeah, it's and you know, so it's been, like, nine months since we talked, so nine months of me, like really exploring that. And, and it's, I think, out of the whole experience, I think that is probably the most impactful is being able to explain a lot of things and, and really forgive myself, because I held on for so long, that, that I was just bad at all those things, and, and internalized so much of it, and I and I, but I was really good at masking it even to myself. And so it's just been, like incredible, but for sure need a therapist. Like, I don't think I would have been able to do that all on my own. I wouldn't, I would have been more afraid to go there without the support of a therapist, you know, like, walking me through it is it's been. It's been hard. And it's been amazing. Yeah.
Jan Willer, PhD 49:27
Yeah. So there's there's a lot of advantages that can come to having a therapist who is knowledgeable about ADHD, right? Yeah. Because they can help you sort through those issues from the past and get their perspective on it. Right. And they can provide you with a lot of information about ADHD and you know how the brain works when a person has ADHD. Yeah, what their common struggles are or what their differences are. So, so that's, that's really useful too, and it can help you work on and coping skills if there's things that you're struggling with.
Hannah Choi 50:03
Yeah. So you know what, before we go, what kind of it? Like, what's your top advice that you give to people? Right? You know, when they, when they come to this realization like, oh, okay, this is why?
Jan Willer, PhD 50:19
Well, I think it's the case with any, you know, cognitive or emotional difference that a person may have in that get, you know, knowledge is power, right? Yeah. And so the more a person understands themselves, the more they understand how their brain is working, the more they've understand how ADHD has affected their life, and affected how they feel about themselves and their emotions, you know, then that really helps them figure out how to move forward. Yeah,
Hannah Choi 50:53
Yeah. And that might take a while and might take a lot of hard work. Probably some tears. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again, Jan. I will be forever, eternally grateful to you for taking the time and for being so supportive. And I really hope that anyone listening can can find a Jan Willer in their lives, to you know, to kind of walk them through this whole, like, exploration of possible ADHD diagnosis.
Hannah Choi 51:33
I just like I like you heard me just say, I am just so grateful for this diagnosis now at age 46. And I'm sad that there was not as much education and understanding about ADHD back when I was a kid so that me and other people like me, could have gotten help earlier. And mom, I know you're listening, I just want you to know that I placed absolutely no blame at all on you, or dad, or on my teachers or the other adults in my childhood, there just wasn't the knowledge, the awareness and understanding that we have today. And I know there are people out there many of them women like me, who were masking their symptoms with coping skills, they were not so that were not so outwardly noticeable to others and didn't have any catastrophic consequences. But they were slowly turning them us inside into people who struggle to find confidence, and believe in themselves. So I am really hopeful for myself and everyone else out there who can relate to any of what I've shared today. If you can relate, please reach out, ask for help ask the questions. It's scary, but you got to do it. I made an appointment, like I said before with a neurologist to learn about my migraines and the connection with ADHD. And I also made an appointment with a more affordable psychiatrist who does full neuro psych reports for less than the typical cost. I'm very excited about that. And you know, as Jan said, knowledge is power. So I'm taking my brain health into my own hands and learning as much as I can. And I really hope that you're able to do that for yourself as well.
Hannah Choi 53:11
If you've been listening for a while, you'll know that one of our main goals is to hopefully help someone somewhere who is struggling with an aspect or maybe many aspects of their executive function skills. Well, this episode is here to maybe help that person find freedom from their frustrating past. By finding the courage to get tested, ask questions, learn about medication and strategies that truly can make a huge difference. It was hard and kind of weird to put myself out there for this episode. My colleagues and Jan both asked me if I was okay with being in that vulnerable position. But I thought about all the people who might be able to relate who might not know where to start and who might find some inspiration and maybe some bravery in my story. I also figured if Katie Couric, Jimmy Kimmel, and Ryan Reynolds can all share their colonoscopy experiences on TV, I can share my ADHD story with you on Focus Forward.
Hannah Choi 54:10
And that is our show for today. If you know anyone who might want to hear all this or maybe needs to hear all this, please share this episode with them. You can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com I would love love, love to hear from you. Please subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts and if you listen on Apple podcasts or on Spotify, please give us a boost by giving us a five star rating will love you for it. Sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening everyone.