Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast

On this week's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All, who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the D.C. area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book (which you’ll hear me gush about) called the Neuroscience of Memory. This topic is especially interesting to me because working memory is one of the core Executive Functions we use everyday. My own working memory is my biggest EF achilles heel, which is probably why math and I don’t get along and why I can’t go to the store without a list because I’ll walk out with lots of stuff I didn’t need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But, over the years, I’ve learned what strategies help me the most. Talking with Sherrie helped me understand that it’s okay to use these external resources to remember things during the day and that there are concrete things we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn, supports our memory. Listen in to learn more about memory, the brain, and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently as long as we possibly can.Here are some resources related to our conversation: Learn more about Dr. Sherrie AllCenters for Cognitive WellnessSherrie All, PhDThe Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, PhDLearn More About MemoryWorking Memory Underpins Cognitive Development, Learning, and EducationMemory - Harvard HealthCognitive Health and Older Adults | National Institute on AgingWorking Memory: Take Note of Your Child’s ChallengesHow to Memorize More Effectively (When Technology is Not an Option!)Memorization Strategies – Learning Center at UNC7 Ways to Retain More of Every Book You Read by James ClearContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listeningEp 16_ Improve Your Memory_ Neuroscience Strategies for a He...Thu, Dec 15, 2022 10:24AM • 58:42SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, strategies, memory, brain, book, neuropsychologist, called, attention, dementia, learning, important, exercise, brain cells, stress, systems, helping, alzheimer, hannah, clinicians, sleepSPEAKERSSherrie All, PhD, Hannah ChoiHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life by working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:18I am so excited to bring you today's episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Sherrie All who is a neuropsychologist who specializes in memory. She and her colleagues at the Centers for Cognitive Wellness in Chicago and the DC area support people who have memory challenges or are experiencing cognitive decline. Sherrie also wrote a book, which you'll hear me gush about, called the Neuroscience of Memory. And this topic is especially interesting to me, because working memory is one of the executive function skills that we use pretty much all the time every single day. Working memory is the skill we use to hold information in our minds long enough to do something with it. If you run into the grocery store for just a few items, and don't bring a list, you'll use your working memory to recall that information. When you meet someone new, your working memory helps you remember their name. And if you're learning a new math formula, your working memory helps you remember the steps. My own memory has a pretty limited capacity, which is probably why math and I don't get along, why I accidentally called my friend's husband "Steve" when his name is actually Corey. And why I can't go to the store without a list because I'll walk out with lots of stuff I didn't need and maybe only a couple of the things I did. I have experienced a lot of frustration and disappointment in my life because of it. But over the years, I've learned what strategies helped me the most and talking with Sherrie really helped me understand that it's okay to use these external resources to help you remember things during the day. And that there are concrete things that we can do to improve our brain health, which in turn supports our memory. So keep listening to learn more about memory and brains and what we can do to help ourselves to live independently longer. Hannah Choi 02:13Hi, Sherrie, thanks so much for joining me.Sherrie All, PhD 02:16Thanks, Hannah. It's my pleasure. I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you.Hannah Choi 02:21I have I have a very, very vested interest in memory because mine is terrible, has always been terrible. I had the nickname of Forgetful Hannah when I was a child. But I think it's genetic. Because my parents don't remember calling me that. I remember though, I remember. So I am so excited about this conversation because of that. I'm basically ready to walk away with a better memory. So I hope you're gonna fix me. Sherrie All, PhD 02:52Oh. I'll do my best. Hannah Choi 02:56Okay. I did read your book though. And, and I I'm like a total nerd about it. Now I'm telling basically everyone I know, my poor family, I keep texting them like, Okay, you have to walk six to nine miles per day. And you have to learn new things. Just like telling them all the things that they have to do. So thank you for that book. Yeah, yeah. For our listeners. I will put all the info about her about Sherrie's book in the show notes soSherrie All, PhD 03:25But it's six to nine miles a week. Hannah Choi 03:27Oh, I mean a week not a day. Oh, yeah, let's clarify that listeners you did not have to walk six to nine miles a day,Sherrie All, PhD 03:35People jumping up and running to the treadmill. Six to nine miles a day is helpful, too.Hannah Choi 03:43It's really time consuming too, so. Alright, so could you introduce yourself a little bit for us?Sherrie All, PhD 03:51Of course yeah. I'm Dr. Sherrie All. I am neuropsychologist by background and I really developed more of an interest in cognitive rehab rehabilitation kind of through my training. I don't know if you if your listeners know this, but neuropsychology as a field has a long about a centuries old history of telling people what's wrong with their brain and neuropsychologist are really good at doing that. And it's a lovely field and it's helping lots and lots of people. But I thought that neuropsychologist did more work in actually helping people improve their memories when I was going through graduate school and, and so when I learned what a neuropsychologist did was like, "Okay, great. Now what do we do about it?" And supervisors were kind of like yeah, we don't really do that so much. And so so it was able to really kind of carve out a some training for myself in in cognitive rehabilitation and I've made it my professional mission to really take a lot of the cognitive improvement strategies that have been living in sort of the ivory tower into the private practice space. And so, exactly 10 years ago, I opened a group practice, which is now called the Centers for Cognitive Wellness. It used to be Chicago Center for Cognitive Wellness, but we've actually expanded. And we actually celebrated our 10th anniversary last night, and cool. And really with that mission of providing kind of the what's next for people after they've been diagnosed with a cognitive decline. And we've worked mainly in the adult space for the last 10 years, we're starting to work more now with kids. But it was really important to me to work with adults initially, because there are a lot of tutoring and support services for kids. Not a lot of stuff available for adults. And so, so we do psychotherapy and cognitive rehabilitation that's sort of mixed into a psychotherapy setting. We're all mental health providers, and I have a team of 12 clinicians, and we just expanded into the DC area.Hannah Choi 06:07So exciting!Sherrie All, PhD 06:08Yeah, so we're just kind of helping people help their brains and, and then I was able to fulfill kind of a lifelong goal of publishing my first book, the Neuroscience of Memory, that you're talking so fondly about it, which is a self help workbook, that is really, you know, designed to help anybody with a brain improve their memory skills, both now and as you get older, and, but also a secondary audience for clinicians to use. And we're actually using that as a tool, it came out last July, July 2021. And I hear weekly from my clinicians are like I've got, I sold another one of your books, and we've gotten using your books, they really liked this part. And they liked that part. And so that's always really nice to hear. So it's, it's easy to kind of use with clients as they, because it's got lots of different exercises in there to help help you implement the skills and, and so we're using it as kind of a treatment tool as well,Hannah Choi 07:12I'm glad you understand the brain so that you can put this good work into it.Sherrie All, PhD 07:16Well, and I think it's important to try to for all of us to understand our brains. And that's one of my goals in the book is to help people understand how memory works. Because we know that when you understand how your brain works, you're better at operating it. And so so it is a real treat to be able to kind of take that deep dive learning and then try to put that into like plain language and sort of spread that out. Because it's important for all of us to have at least some fundamental understanding about how memory works, because then you can get better at operating it. And, and then also just to really save people from a lot of this so much anxiety, right? And there's a lot of anxiety about memory loss at every, really at like the whole lifespan, especially in adulthood. But But kids or kids are hard on themselves about their brains, too. And, and so, you know, we're way too hard on ourselves about our memories. And, and so I think that if people do understand that, like forgetting is normal, and you do need strategies, then maybe we can start to kind of dial down some of that overall anxiety. And because the anxiety makes your memory worse to like in the short term, and in the long term. Yes. Oh, like, Yeah, let's let's just be like, let's be a little kinder to ourselves and take down the temperature a little bit, right?Hannah Choi 08:53Yeah, yeah. And so like, when you're when your stress hormones and other brain thing, like when your stress hormones kick in, you're your executive function skills are like the first things to go. So that makes sense that your memory would be compromised if you are stressed. So if you're walking around stressed all the time, that's gonna make it harder.Sherrie All, PhD 09:14Yeah, you can't remember what you didn't pay attention to. And and, and so I mean, attention is really like the gateway to memory. And so attention completely gets knocked out, right? If you if you're in kind of that limbic hijack you literally the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain where you focus and pay attention to things and it and it just goes to like the survivalistic parts of your brain and, and so you can't get focus, you can't pay attention and then then you're not going to remember that whatever that thing was, right? And so, so yeah, so it's important for us to all just kind of like take a breath.Hannah Choi 09:59So Oh, that's what you just something that you just said, makes me think I, when I was reading your book, you said your memory is only as good as your attention. And I was like, "shut up". I know that. (laughter) But now you're gonna have to make me now you're gonna make me pay more attention. It was so funny when I first read that I was like, ah, ah, I know that. But now I see her. Now I see it in writing. So lots of people, I mean, lots of people, regardless of their ADHD status, lots of people have, you know, challenges with attention depending on the situation, right? Or depending on how stressed you are, or what time of day it is or what situation you're in. And so can you talk a little bit more about about that and why you said that sentence that was only as good as your attention.Sherrie All, PhD 11:01It's gratifying to hear a reaction like that. I treat other authors exactly the same way. Oh, the hell you sayHannah Choi 11:14But, I'm glad you said it. Okay, cuz it's true. Sherrie All, PhD 11:17Yeah, it was a hard. It's a hard truth. Right?Hannah Choi 11:19It was. Yes, exactly. It was a hard truth that needed to that I needed to hear and that everyone else needs to hear it too.Sherrie All, PhD 11:26Yeah, of course. Because I mean, well, let's just think about it. I mean, it's simple mechanics. Your brain stores information, like memory is like the storage of information that gets into your brain. Right? That attention is the gateway, you cannot expect yourself to remember things that you didn't notice in the first place. kind of simple. Um, and, and so, one thing I like to kind of talk about is that, like, I use this analogy of my husband. This, you know, it's been a while now, it's probably been about 15 years since this happened. But remember, when like flat screen TVs were coming out, like the plasma TVs and, and the high definition and he like, got a second job, because you know, they weren't cheap back there were like, several $1,000, right. And so you get a second job, he saves up a bunch of money, he buys the first plasma TV, and he sticks it on the wall. And he plugs it into our satellite service. And an end, the picture is garbage. It is really, really terrible. And we're like, what, what's the deal? Like, this is supposed to be like an amazing picture. It's high definition. So we call up the satellite company. And they're like, Oh, you got a new high definition television? Well, yeah, you need to pay like an extra $5 a month to get the high definition signal, you're not getting the high definition signal. And, and that's really sort of how I think about like attention and memory, that like memories, like the high def TV, right that it but it has to have a high def signal coming into it for it to function correctly. And so so all of the strategies that we know for improving attention are going to improve memory kind of down the line, because you're getting in higher quality data, more data, kind of coming in into your brain. So I usually will use this example when I'm talking about mindfulness and meditation, because that's what mindfulness does for you is that it allows you to kind of like widen your lens and just, you know, choose to be more aware of whatever's kind of happening in that moment. And, and so then you get higher definition data kind of coming into your, into your brain. And so, so it's just really important to remember that, like, if you were kind of like, not present or like, not there Ellen Langer, as a Harvard psychologist who has this really great quote, that, like, "when you're not there, you're not there to know that you're not there". Yeah. Like, you know, your thoughts are often in lala land, you know, you're thinking you're worrying about the future, you're ruminating about the past. You're not paying attention and you're not so you're not going to notice like what somebody said to you or what the news program said and, and so you may have to like, you know, ask for clarification back it up. That yeah, don't like Be nice to your memory. Don't expect it to remember things that that you didn't notice in the first place. It just yeah, that way.Hannah Choi 14:50Do you think that the lifestyle that people live and societal impact of maybe you know, social media and just How quickly information is passed to us? Do you think any of that has impacted people's perceptions that they have memory problems? When maybe when we lived like a simpler life when there were like less demands on us or less information coming in all the time? Do you think that that has increased?Sherrie All, PhD 15:20I mean, I've felt it, I don't know. I can't, I can't speak to the data on this necessarily, you know, but I think anecdotally, like, there's, there's some actually some really, one thing I have looked into, because one thing I noticed kind of early on, when I started in private practice, and that, you know, I have this habit of opening like, way too many tabs on my right, and, and then and then having to switch it. So So in neuropsychology, we call it set shifting, that if you're having to switch your attention from one to the other, you know, that colloquially, we call it multitasking. And, and it actually, there are some studies to show that that actually takes a really big toll on your performance, that they've done it with college students where they do two tasks, then their processing speed goes down by about the same as like being high on pot. And there's a big cost to kind of like switching back and forth. And but but even with, like computer usage, it's sort of this, the girls also described this thing called, like, the threshold effect, that when you cross over a threshold, like from one room to the other, that sometimes your your memory will kind of reset in and so you'll lose whatever that thing is that you are kind of holding in your working memory, it'll, it'll just kind of go away. And I'll notice that kind of on my computer screen, you know, it'd be like, I'm going to my email to look for this thing. And then I get to my email and like, something will distract me, right. And then it's like, what was that thing? You know? And so, you know, with technology, social media, like we're getting a small bits, right, like that. We're, we're switching very quickly, on a on a really regular basis. I'm sure that that takes a toll on like, sustained attention. Yeah, I think kind of the overall stress level. But the other thing that I wanted to say, kind of related to your question is that, you know, it's some of the stuff we're learning about Instagram and eating disorders and suicide. And you know, that a lot of it's perfectionism, right? And that, so I see a lot of people who suffer from cognitive perfectionism. You know, and even just socially, you know, that when people find out that I'm a memory expert, and then and then they'll find out, you know, so example of something I forgot. They're like, Oh,Hannah Choi 17:59Do you ever lie about your job? Sherrie All, PhD 18:00So sometimes I do. Hannah Choi 18:03Like "I'm in finance".Sherrie All, PhD 18:04I was at a party recently, and I made everybody else tell me what they did before I told him what I did, right. Hannah Choi 18:15That's awesome. Sherrie All, PhD 18:17But again, like, we were hard on our memories, we kind of expect it to be perfect. But the other thing is that the cost of having a bad memory is is real. In and so I don't think that people's fears are unwarranted because, you know, kind of back to your question about simpler society. You know, if you were a farmer, and you had kind of this, you did the same routine, day after day, year after year, in the cost of like, kind of losing your cognitive skills isn't quite as big as what it is for, like a tech industry. Yeah. Right. Your job is to write code. And then you can't focus anymore, you're making costly mistakes, then, you know, our incomes are really dependent on our cognitive skills now. Yeah. And then one other thing that I think is worth noting about sort of the collective fear about cognition is that rates of dementia are legitimately increasing. With the baby boomers turning 65 and aging into we're going to see an increase in the prevalence of dementia. Unlike anything that's ever happened in human history, it's going to see a lot more examples of it where people are struggling because of cognitive decline. And I think that in some, it's, it's happening on an individual level to more and more people where they're seeing family members, you know, loved ones like their old football coach, you know, Really declining and so, so people, you know, people, understandably are going to be really scared about that too.Hannah Choi 20:07Right, the more examples that they have of it in their lives, the more fear they will feel themselves.Sherrie All, PhD 20:13Yeah. And we're seeing it with concussions, right with all the media attention put on this chronic traumatic encephalopathy that, that, you know, it's pathology that we've seen in the brains of retired NFL players. But it trickles down into where, where people have kind of a misunderstanding about concussion recovery. And if they have one concussion, then they become very fearful. They think it's easy to understand that you would, by watching all the media coverage about these concussions and this neuro pathological disorder that can that can come from that, that people will automatically assume it's not a huge mental leap to think, oh, no, I bumped my head. And now I've lit the fuse on a neuro degenerative disease. That's not really the case. We don't have those kinds of links between like, a regular concussion, you know, for everyday people like ourselves, you know, compared to what's happening to these professional athletes. We all need to remember that? We're not NFL players, right? I am not an NFL player.Hannah Choi 21:33Neither am I. Yeah. I can't even watch football. Sherrie All, PhD 21:38Like, we expect we expect people to get better over time, likeHannah Choi 21:43That's good to hearSherrie All, PhD 21:45Even from more serious brain injuries, people get better. Not all the way sometimes, like with a serious brain injury. But, um, but if you, you know, if you didn't lose consciousness, and, you know, you didn't have like, extended periods of what we call post traumatic amnesia, or like, extreme mental confusion for like, a really long period of time, then, you know, odds are that you're gonna get better. And, but But what you believe about your memory makes a big difference.Hannah Choi 22:17Yeah. Right. And if you Yeah, and I think like, if we look, if we look we instead of looking for, we don't notice all the times, we do remember something, we just pay attention to the times that we don't, we look for those negative cases. What about all of this, like, I'm wearing clothes. So obviously, I remembered something today.Hannah Choi 22:20You remembered at least one thing todayHannah Choi 22:27That that's something that I've been working on myself is like, changing my identity. So I've always thought of myself, I mean, like, I was Forgetful Hannah. And so now I'm trying to change my identity. It's very difficult because I constantly just go to that, well, I'm just a forgetful person. So it's, it's, um, it's hard work. It's hard work to do. And if any of my family and friends are listening, they're probably like, yeah, your identity has not changed. But I'm trying, I'm trying to for myself, just change that. Because maybe if I stopped believing that so much about myself, I will actually come out with a better memory than I believe that I have.Hannah Choi 23:25Right? Yeah, change the narrative. You know, yeah, exactly. saying mean things to yourself, like, Stop criticizing yourself. And you people do it with all sorts of things. You know, if you say, like, I'm bad with money, you know, then that, you know, that belief leads to behaviors, and, you know, but, but you can learn how to be better at money, you know, oh, you know, I can't, I can't exercise, you know, but then you start to you shift some of that, and it like behavior and beliefs, kind of, you know, they play with each other. And, but, but they, you know, they go hand in hand. And so sometimes if you try a new behavior, then that can affect your belief. If you try to change your belief, then that can kind of lead you to a new behavior. So, it's worth doing the work because, you know, we really can rewrite those narratives.Hannah Choi 24:16Yeah, so much of so much of what I do for myself and also for my clients is, is that and so I have a question. So for myself, just speak for myself, specifically, because I'm myself and I can relate. So should I, I use a lot of strategies to help myself remember things because I know that memory is challenged for me. So I use a lot of different strategies. I use Google Tasks, Google event reminders, I have a planner I use post it notes. I put signs on the door I asked my partner, my husband to help me remember things I have people text me I mean, I have a lot of different strategies that I use. At But sometimes I feel like that's not helping my memory, it's just helping me not, it's just helping me do those things. It's not, like not like a practice to improve my actual memory. So for someone who has a challenges with memory, should is that enough or should there be additional practice to help improve my memory so that maybe I don't need to use all those tools.Sherrie All, PhD 25:31I don't think there's any evidence to date that we need to be doing anything different to specifically beef up our memory circuits. You know, I could be proven wrong with science kind of down the line. But the current state of the evidence is that there really doesn't seem to be a difference between cognitive activity, what type of cognitive activity and, and, and, and kind of preventing dementia, that like people who are cognitively active no matter what the cognitive activity is, it can be attention training, it could be processing speed, it could be problem solving, it could be memory strategies, all of those are, you know, they all of those are pretty equal in terms of the data that if you just kind of live a cognitively stimulating life, then your your risk for dementia is is mild to moderately reduced. There are some people who would say, well, oh, this this one, you know, like, I think if there is one type of training platform that maybe has outperformed some others, it's it's more kind of in like, processing speed. And so, so that said, like, I love your systems. Yeah, and, and, and that's the stuff that we would train someone who didn't have those systems and was complaining about their performance, we would actually work to try to get them to implement those types of systems. But the people who have really exceptional memories are ones that have kind of used the strategies of like, organizing information, or using visualization strategies, or just using externalizing strategies, which, you know, you use a lot of those. And so I think the goal for Functional Independence is whatever keeps you independent and doing a good job. Right. And so if you need to externalize those things, great. Right? Like, because that's what's gonna keep you you know, independent performing your job. Doing a good job, getting promoted.Hannah Choi 27:59Doing a Podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, that that is great to hear. Because, I mean, that's what I do as an executive function coach is I you know, exactly that, right. We teach people strategies to level the playing field in whatever area, they feel challenged. And soSherrie All, PhD 28:21that's why we love working with the beyond booksmart executive function coaches, too, because you guys are so great at like, helping our clients implement, you know, a lot of these daily functioning strategies. And, and then there's more to it too, because if you're, if you're succeeding, then you kind of have that upward positivity spiral that's going to reduce stress. And and that's good for your brain in the long term. And then also, you know, I, I, it makes me sad, Hannah, that you actually beating yourself up about your strategies. Hannah Choi 29:05I'm not going to anymore! Sherrie All, PhD 29:06Yeah. That's kind of a layer of stress. Right like that. Hannah Choi 29:10Yeah. Right. Sherrie All, PhD 29:11Strategies. You burst out some cortisol. That's not good for your brain cells. Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Like celebrate your strategies.Hannah Choi 29:22Okay, yeah, I'm going to and I, it feels really good to hear that because I, I don't know why, but I saw it as, like a flaw that I had to use them even though I even said to you before, like, why do people look down on on using strategies and here, I was doing that without even realizing it. And I just know that when I use those strategies, it improves everything for me, it improves. You know, my just my day to day existence. In my, my relationships with everyone, and, and my relationship with myself too, so, so I'm going to use them proudly now.Hannah Choi 30:10You're like a systems queen?Hannah Choi 30:14Well, you know, I mean I do teach people I like, I hope that I have also done that metacognition piece and figured out what works for me to know. But, what that actually reminds me what you were saying before how important that metacognition piece is, and how important it is to figure out like, how our brains work, and how, what works for us, and what doesn't work for us and why we do those things and why we don't do those other things. And it's just so important. And I feel like it, it feels like to me that that piece is not valued by everyone, because it is you're not, I don't know if I'm right. But it is not immediately valued because you are not actually producing anything when you are sitting and thinking about yourself. No, you're not. Right? You're not like creating anything, you're not making anything, but you are learning so much. And so I just hope that people recognize the value of sitting and thinking about yourself. Yeah, there's so much in there.Sherrie All, PhD 31:24And then, you know, putting those systems in place, because, I mean, it's basically like, a lot of what you're describing is like basic project management, you know, and like, I, I took a class where, you know, I had to kind of learn some project management, and I learned that I'm, like, terrible naturally, like, my natural instinct is to just like, jump right into the task, you know, and like, as a group, we're like, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna wide now we're gonna, you know, lay out are all the steps and like, the timeline and like, oh, okay, but like, going, right? Like what you're saying, like, we put too much value on sort of the output. But if you take a step back, like when you do your, your, your task list, you're probably going to get so much more done that day, than if you hadn't if you just jumped right into the thing, because you forget all those other things like,Hannah Choi 32:27yeah, or I didn't think about like, well, let's see, I'm feeling I have a lot of energy right now. So I should do the thing that's going to be the most energy sucking and then save the other things for later or, like, I'm feeling very unmotivated right now. So I should just do that, like little things that don't take much that might make me feel better. So yeah. So yeah, so like the the same what you were just saying, like, thinking that the thinking about yourself is the same as stopping to plan a little bit before you jump in. So totally, yeah. So much value in that. So talking about strategies, what are your go to strategies for people to, to remember stuff? And I guess this can apply to anybody. I mean, a lot of us coaches work with students, but a lot of our clients are adults too. And, and I imagined that the strategies aren't really any different from between younger and older people.Sherrie All, PhD 33:22Yeah, they're pretty universal. Right? Okay, so well, because probably because I have a background in clinical neuropsychology, it's, it's important for me to first kind of diagnose the problem, right. So our strategies need to be really customized to whatever situation a person's having, right. And so, so there are kind of some universal strategies that that we can teach people. But it's, it's never a one size fits all. And, and, and so it's important to kind of match the strategy with the person, because that also, it's just not feasible. It's like, physically impossible to do all the strategies all the time. So so what I try to, you know, kind of empower my clinicians to do is to have sort of a toolbox. And I think that's kind of what beyond booksmart does a good job of too. It's like, you know, that the executive function coaches like you guys do have like a nice system and program, but but your executive function coaches have enough of kind of a toolbox to be able to kind of pick and choose to sort of match for like, Whatever, whatever the situation is. So anyway, I think go to strategies are number one, particularly when we have folks with attention problems, working memory problems, is that we try to get them to slow down a little bit. It's If they can, right, or be strategic about fast and slow, and, and so so, so will will, one of our first steps is to actually try to get them to engage in some sort of mindfulness practice. And what's nice about the world of mindfulness is that there are, you know, 50 bajillion different practices that we can, you know, choose from, because that's also not a one size fits all, there's people who really resonate with breathwork. And then there are people who love, you know, guided imagery, and then there are people, you know, you know, I think open monitoring, you know, it's sort of like, sit for one minute and just, you know, notice what's happening and be in the present moment. That can be great. For some people, I think it can be really torture for people who have attention problems and have sort of a really active Default Mode Network, where their minds are just kind of going all the time. It's what So, but, but, you know, kind of having a little bit of that cultural debate of like, okay, slow down, be present, be engaged, maybe start to notice what's happening in your body, kind of be present. Number two, would be using a lot of those externalizing interventions. So, so making lists, setting alarms, I love "can't miss reminders". This is we use a program called Cog Smart that's out of the VA system, it was originally developed for people with brain injuries and severe mental illness. And then they have a new program for people with mild cognitive impairment, which like maybe some of the earlier stages of dementia. And, and so they'll you know, put up you know, it put up like a little post it on your coffee maker that says walk the dog, you know, because you might, you might forget to walk the dog, I'm never going to forget to make coffee in the morning. So just kind of putting some of those reminders in sort of an obvious place. Another strategy they use is self-talk. And so that can kind of help you stay on target, as you're kind of going from one thing to the other. And that you kind of say, you know, I'm gonna go to the kitchen, I'm gonna get some yogurt, you know, and I'm going there, I'm gonna say, and you can say it out loud. You can say it to yourself in your head. Yogurt. Yeah. Yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. So, so So those are some of my favorites. I think, you know, and so those are all kind of on the like, attention part of of the pathway to memory. But we also have other strategies for helping you memorize things, right. Like, and, and that's important for when the moment requires it. Like, where are you parked in a parking garage, for instance, right, like stopping and taking like a little mental snapshot and kind of rehearsing it or sort of visualizing it.Hannah Choi 38:00I loved that section of the book. It was so fun to do that, to do the list. And then to try to remember the list and then reuse the different strategies. It was very cool. Yeah, it was very convincing.Sherrie All, PhD 38:13Yeah. And so, you know, you can take some steps to get things to stick in your brain better, when that's needed. But it's not needed for everything right in. And so especially now, like, and this is something that, that we've been kind of debating in, I guess, kind of wringing your hands around since ever since humans became literate. And we just don't memorize things the same way that we used to, because we don't really have to write and so the newest iteration of that is the internet. And, and so you can even tell the difference between like Boomers and Gen Xers compared to like Millennials of like, how long I'm a Gen Xer. And I will spend a good 10 minutes trying to remember a fact about something. And my Millennial friends, like have already looked it up on their phone. Right.Hannah Choi 39:08Right. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 39:14Just grew up with like, you know, 10-year-old encyclopedia. Yeah.Hannah Choi 39:21Like, oh, I hope it's in the index. That's really funny.Sherrie All, PhD 39:27I mean, so that's the newest version of it, right? But as a species, we've been doing that externalizing ever since we had the ability to write things down and then go back and read them the way things are now. You don't have to memorize everything. I think you're probably going to be okay. I don't think it's causing Alzheimer's disease. The only what's causing Alzheimer's disease is that people are living way longer than they used to. You know, but so anyway, but when what when the moments right, Like when you need to memorize something like if you're an actor, and you're you have to memorize things, or you're getting a speech, or you need to, you're at a job and you need to memorize, like a certain, you know, list of steps to kind of make that automatic, then, then those those strategies can be helpful, you know, but yeah, but but I think that sometimes people assume that they have to kind of do that for everything. And then they worried because we're not doing it like we used to. It's gonna make me have Alzheimer's.Hannah Choi 40:34Okay, good to know. Not, I could be wrong,Sherrie All, PhD 40:41to always be open to being wrong. Right.Hannah Choi 40:43Right. Well, I hope you're not. So one additional thing that, that I got a very clear message in your book is that the pretty much the most important thing that we can do for our memories is exercise. And so can you talk a little bit about that?Sherrie All, PhD 41:03Yeah. So I do, I had been saying it's like the number one best thing you can do for your brain? And it probably is, although I am starting to tweak that a little bit that everything is, is memory strategies are customizable. So everybody has like a different? I think everybody actually does have like, a different probably priority. Number one. No, like, if you're a smoker, I'm gonna want you to quit smoking, before I make you get on a treadmill. I have an idea. Yeah. Like our individual, right, you know, it's Sleep, sleep is really important too. And we're learning a lot more about that. The reason that for a long time, we've been saying that exercise is the is the best strategy is because it's had the best science up to this point. And by best science, it means that we can do experiments. And so we have some really good causal data to show that when people are physically active, they get have bigger brains, the memory circuits in their brain are bigger, they grow new brain cells, and it actually increases the rate of brain cell growth. And we haven't seen that with any other type of lifestyle strategy, except for stress goes in the other direction, we know that. So the stress hormone cortisol keeps you from growing new brain cells. And, and so so, you know, managing stress may be you know, the opposite of, of, you know, kind of the same as exercise and, but, but the quality of the data is, is really, really strong. And so, so that's why we really kind of hang out, hang our hats on that one, because it lends itself to doing experiments. And, you know, whereas things like socialization,Hannah Choi 43:04It's harder to measure, harder to measureSherrie All, PhD 43:07And harder to manipulate. You know, make people get friends.Hannah Choi 43:13Just be more social. Sherrie All, PhD 43:16And like it! Hannah Choi 43:19Enjoy it don't get stressed. Meet five friends have five 10-minute conversations. measure your heart rate, or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it really shows you I mean, that's a great example for how research is really beneficial, or can be really beneficial, and why it is so important to research thingsSherrie All, PhD 43:45And also to kind of get some help. And so one of the things in the book is for people, one of the early exercises is for you to kind of gauge like what is your overall risk, right? Like where I use this brain 401k investment analogy in the book that, you know, our risk for dementia is really predicted more by how much brain cells and skills you have sort of stored in this cognitive reserve, and everybody kind of varies in those in how much reserves they have. And we can measure that by seeing how, you know, people with higher reserve have people with bigger brains have a bigger resistance to dementia. And, and that you can build your reserve throughout your life, like through these different lifestyle areas. But one of the early exercises in the book is for you to kind of do a self assessment, you kind of rate your portfolio, your brain 401k portfolio, you know, so am I, I may be doing really well in mental stimulation because I have a mentally stimulating job, but I'm not exercising a whole lot and I have a lot of stress. And so those are kind of the two areas where I need to maybe beef up my own individual efforts, right compared to somebody else, who, you know, maybe exercises a whole lot, but you know, he's just retired and it's not, you know, socializing as much as they used to maybe not learning new things and so that their own strategy is going to be different than than mine in. And so really kind of personal. It's all custom, right? We're human strengths and weaknesses, and we gotta figure it kind of focus our efforts.Hannah Choi 45:29Yeah, and that's, I guess that's, again, where that metacognition piece comes into, and really spending the time to look at your life and to look at how your memory impacts you, and how, and what areas you maybe need to, you know, like, spend more time with or, or back off on or whatever it is. So, in your book, you cover a variety of different areas like exercise, and socialization and learning new things, which are three that you've already mentioned. In addition to those, what are some others that people should consider when they're thinking about their brain health?Sherrie All, PhD 46:06So some new data that's come out about sleep is especially for the risk of Alzheimer's disease is that when when we're asleep, when you're in deep sleep, the glial cells, they're these like support cells that surround the neurons in your brain, they actually shrink by about 20%. And it allows the spinal fluid to come in and flush out toxins, oh, it's probably like the lymphatic system of the brain and clay and so it's, they call it the glymphatic system, the glial cells. And one of the things that gets flushed out is the amyloid plaque that causes Alzheimer's disease. We all make amyloid plaque and, but, but normally, it's going to be flushed out through the spinal fluid. Hannah Choi 46:58Fascinating. Sherrie All, PhD 46:59And it's only becomes problematic when it sticks in your brain and starts to kind of choke off your neurons. And so they're Matthew Walker is a neuroscientist who's written he wrote a book called Why We sleep and then he's he's runs a research lab where they are putting out papers and, and so they've actually found a correlation between people who sleep less in their 50s 60s and 70s have more amyloid plaque in their brain. We don't it's it's a correlation. So we don't know which causes which it could be that amyloid causes you to stop sleeping much or that not sleeping enough, you know, causes the amyloid to build up. But that's actually like most of our dementia prevention strategies are focused on trying to help you kind of just maintain as many neurons as you can. But this is actually a little bit more directly impacting the pathology of Alzheimer's, that, you know, if you get really good deep sleep, then, you know, you may actually be preventing the pathology of Alzheimer's like flushing that amyloid out.Hannah Choi 48:02Wow, that's so interesting.Sherrie All, PhD 48:05REM sleep is important for helping the amygdala is this little structure in your brain, that's kind of your fear detector, it's the thing that sort of sets off the fight or flight response. And it's kind of always looking out for things that it thinks might kill you. And then and then when it thinks that something might kill you, then it triggers you know, you to release all that cortisol and have those kinds of exaggerated responses. And you have the limbic hijacking, and you can't concentrate and you're, you know, you know, producing toxic chemicals to your brain cells, and you're keeping your brain from growing new brain cells. So, the amygdala if you lose one night asleep, your amygdala is 60%. more active.Hannah Choi 48:49Wow. That's not good.Sherrie All, PhD 48:56A recipe for yelling at your kid.Hannah Choi 48:58Yeah. And no wonder, right.Sherrie All, PhD 49:03And sleep is important for that kind of calming of the amygdala, most of your REM sleep later in the night, and an epic and if you have middle insomnia, if you're up for more than half an hour, the entire sleep architecture of your night sort of starts over where you don't actually won't get enough REM cycles. So you do more deep sleep early in the night. And so it's important to just try to maybe like sleep through the night. So so when we have people who talk about sleep problems, we we, as a practice, send them to a sleep center. Study. We need to know what's going on. Do you have sleep apnea? Do you have there's a cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia CBT-I that's very behaviorally based and so it's just about following kind of some simple rules to you know, make sure that you're going to bed when you're tired. And enough that you're, you know, kind of helping your body sort of reengage those natural circadian rhythms maybe not, you know, having like a caffeine curfew, not knowing what time it is at night is like a really big piece of that too, because that sticks that you go through when you make four o'clock. It's got like, two more hours.Hannah Choi 50:23Yes. You do the math, the insomnia math. Yes. My sister went through the CBT for insomnia. And it just really, really, really helped her. Sherrie All, PhD 50:36Yeah, it helped me, I did it. You know, I yeah, I got really bad insomnia during the pandemic and found out I have sleep apnea. So I went on. Yeah, and if you've ever tried CPAP, and you feel like you've tried it a few years ago, you're like, Oh, it's terrible. I can't stand it. Like, the machines are getting better and better.Hannah Choi 50:55Oh, that's good to know. Yeah. And so have you noticed? And have you noticed an impact on your on your awakening? You're Awake, awake, life,Sherrie All, PhD 51:04How I feel during the day? Yeah. One hundred percent.. Hannah Choi 51:07Yeah, that's great.Sherrie All, PhD 51:09I would walk around, like, face tired, or time focusing and have like, you know, and have kind of a hair trigger. And yeah, wait, and, and I've been able to lose it since then. But I think one of the biggest pieces, because I told this, the CBT therapist, I was like, You're not taking my phone away. It's not just I thought I was psychologist or a that makes me a really terrible patient. Right.Hannah Choi 51:37Right. Sure. I know what to do. Right? I'm only here because someone told me to.Sherrie All, PhD 51:46So, so we tell people about like, like, we'll give them information about sleep hygiene. You know, those are things like, you know, limit screens at night have, you know, that kind of stuff? I go, I go I'm not, I'm not giving up my phone. She's like, okay, that's okay. You know. So what we've devised is that because I have a really active default mode network that I think people with ADHD we're seeing, have that. And which means that when I wake up in the middle of the night, I just start thinking about all sorts of things, right. And I turn on a podcast. Like maybe right now someone is listening to us on this podcast.Hannah Choi 52:31We're happy to keep your company.Sherrie All, PhD 52:34I'll turn on a podcast, it has to be like a certain level of interesting because I'm going to fall back asleep. So maybe, maybe it's not this one.Hannah Choi 52:41Yeah, maybe it's just too engaging. They're not good for the middle of the night. Sherrie All, PhD 52:45It depends. But I have a little post it. It's a stack of post it notes that I take to my phone to cover up the clock, like, so I can turn my podcast on, but I don't know what time it is.Hannah Choi 52:58Yeah, that's so smart. I love that she told you that she let you keep it. Right. And that goes back to make the strategy work for yourself. Yeah. And, and, and it's okay. If if whatever tweak you have done to the strategy is different than what they say you should do. If it works for you, then then that's good enough. Okay. Sherrie All, PhD 53:19Yeah, it's collaborative, right? Yeah, no, none of these interventions could be to top down because people are gonna be resistant. And then they can't do it. Yeah. Right. We all have issues with authority.Hannah Choi 53:31Right. Yeah. Right. I'll just suffer instead of doing what you suggested. Well, thank you so much. This has just been such a great conversation. Is there anything else you want to add that we missed?Sherrie All, PhD 53:47Well, get the book.Hannah Choi 53:49Yes. Are sure you guys have to read this book Neuroscience of Memory by Sherrie All, Dr. Sherrie All it's so good. It's so good. And I love I just love how you wrote it. There was one thing you said like you it was a list of things that can be impacted in you. And you said you had the list. And then you said "...and stuff like that". I was like, Yes. Like you get you just wrote "and stuff like" that in a book. I was just so great. Because I feel like there's so much pressure out there to just have everything be on like super professional sounding. And that's what I want to read because that's what I can relate to. And it was just it was so accessible. Such a great book. So thank you. Sherrie All, PhD 54:34Yeah, I like to think of it as kind of like your girlfriends guide to your brain.Hannah Choi 54:37Yeah, that's what it felt like it was really it's really, really nice. So I highly recommend everybody find itSherrie All, PhD 54:44And the audio book, I got to narrate it. So you can listen to me!Hannah Choi 54:47Oh, cool.Hannah Choi 54:50That's great. You have a good voiceSherrie All, PhD 54:51And if you listen while you sleep and maybe you sleep with me.Hannah Choi 54:55I love it. And where else can our listeners find you?Sherrie All, PhD 55:01So you can find me at Sherrieall.com. That's my page that I keep for speaking and writing. And then if you want to access our clinics were at cogwellness.com. We have a location in Chicago, and then in Chevy Chase, Maryland, and hopefully some other states as we continue to grow. Because, you know, we're really passionate about helping people improve their cognition. And there are other practices that do what we do. And, you know, but, but I think that, particularly for some of the early stage dementia work, where we're one of the few people that are kind of helping people implement a lot of those recommendations from neuro psychologists. And so, you know, we just like to be able to help a lot more people. But so, so clinically, we're there for now, and but hopefully, hopefully near you soon.Hannah Choi 55:52Yeah, great. Well, thank you again, and I love I love how there are so many practical things that people can do to improve their memory and decrease or maybe not decrease, but improve the chances of living independently longer. And I love that. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I'm sure that that everyone out there that has met with you is just so with you. And your and your practitioners have been so grateful for the support. Yeah, maybe make it a little less scary, right. less scary. Yeah.Sherrie All, PhD 56:27And hire a Beyond BookSmart executive function coach. Yeah, put these things in practice.Hannah Choi 56:34Yeah. And like what we were saying earlier, you know, these, figuring out exactly what strategies are going to work for you. It is nice to have the support of someone else that has like a sort of, like a like at outset an outsider viewpoint and can help help you get out of your own head.Sherrie All, PhD 56:53Don't judge yourself for all your systems, right? Hannah Choi 56:55That's right! No judgment, this is a judgment free zone.Sherrie All, PhD 56:58That's right! Celebrate!Hannah Choi 56:59Yay. Yes, yes. I am so excited to go forth and use my strategies proudly. And I'm and I'm just going to keep continuing to spread the word that it's okay to use strategies. You do not have to remember everything on your own. Sherrie All, PhD 57:14You can't you cannot you can't. That's right. This, those five people are Sherrie All, PhD 57:18Like four or five. Hannah Choi 57:19Yeah, four, probably four. Sherrie All, PhD 57:20And they're probably probably lying anyway.Hannah Choi 57:22yeah, actually, just like quickly use some, like, they have a device in their ear. All right. Well, thank you so much.Sherrie All, PhD 57:33Likewise, this has been a pleasure. And thank you. Thank you.Hannah Choi 57:38And that's our show for today. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to all of Sherrie's resources, plus some more that I found to share with you. If you're like me and are challenged by your working memory, I really hope this episode has motivated you to find and use even more strategies that help you remember more stuff, which in turn will help you feel more confident. I know it's made a huge difference for me. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus forward with your colleagues and your family and your friends. You can subscribe to focus forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. If you listen on Apple podcasts, give us a boost by giving us that five star rating. Sign up for our newsletter at www.beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening

Establishing a school, writing an acclaimed book, starting a successful company - these are all extremely difficult achievements in their own right... but accomplished together by one person? That may seem near impossible for many of us, but for Michael Delman, they've just been necessary steps toward one singular goal: making Executive Function skill development more accessible to all. So how did he do it? Or more importantly, what can we learn from the trials and triumphs of his journey?In this week's episode, I talk with Michael about the essential wisdom he's learned from his 30+ year experience in education - one that includes starting the world's largest Executive Function coaching company, Beyond BookSmart, establishing a charter school, and writing critically acclaimed book for parents, "Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay". Listen to learn about Michael's journey and how you can apply his insights toward reaching your own goals (even the most ambitious ones!) Hopefully from his story, you can find inspiration to build even more meaning in your life.Show NotesBrainTracks (School training division of BBS): www.braintracks.comYour Kid’s Gonna Be Okay (Michael's book): https://www.beyondbooksmart.com/your-kids-gonna-be-okay-michael-delmanAn Hour a Week: https://anhouraweek.org/Beyond BookSmart: www.beyondbooksmart.comChan Zuckerberg Initiative: https://chanzuckerberg.com/Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Hannah Choi 00:19While you probably know by now that I am an executive function coach, you may not know that I work as a coach for a company called Beyond Booksmart. I got thinking about the story behind the company and how executive function skills are built into the running of a company that specializes in executive function. I invited our CEO Michael Delman to join me for a conversation about just that. We wound our way through a variety of topics, and Michael shared with me the wisdom that he's gained through his life experience as a student, teacher, founder of a charter school, published author and CEO of beyond booksmart. Listen to learn about how important executive function skills are to Michael, how he leads his company and how he believes that good executive function skills are the key to a successful future for the children of today. Hannah Choi 01:15Hi, Michael, thank you for joining me today. Can you just first start off by introducing yourself a little bit for anyone who doesn't know who you are?Michael Delman 01:24I'm Michael Delman. I'm the CEO of Beyond BookSmart and an educator for about 30 years now. So, in this because I love it. And dad of two girls, both of whom graduated this year - one high school, one college. You know, the usual I have a dog of course, Ultimate Frisbee aficionado and I founded a charter school. I wrote a book on I don't know, yeah, just...Hannah Choi 01:56There's got to be some great stories in there about executive function challenges and, and what led you to where you are.Michael Delman 02:04So, choosing the dog? Absolutely. Hannah Choi 02:09What do you have? Michael Delman 02:09We have a Cavapoo. Great little dog. But yeah, actually, yeah, no, actually, I'll tell you the story real quick. So my wife was a holdout on getting the dog as so often happens. And of course, now she's the dog's biggest fan. But my daughter younger daughter always wanted a dog. And we tried everything, you know, pros and cons list, what were the criteria that must be met in order to have the dog. And finally it came down to just pure psychological manipulation, where I, one day said to my wife, "What if? What if our daughter had a tragic accident, and she never had had a dog?" And my wife was like, "Okay, you win. That's it." So, when it came down to it, the rational left brain logical whatever it was just like that one image of like, our daughter being like, devastated and never having had a puppy that just did it so. So our daughter saved up money and paid for the dog herself. Even as kid and yeah, so there we go.Hannah Choi 03:20I'll have to make sure that my kids and husband don't listen to this episode, because I am the last holdout on getting another dog our dog passed away three years ago. I'm not there yet. I'm not there yet. And so we have to make sure that they don't listen to this episode.Michael Delman 03:35But you know what it's like to have a dog? So you know that? Yes, you know, the joy of it? And yes, no,Hannah Choi 03:40I do. Yeah. Yeah. So you are the CEO of an executive function skills company. So what is executive function and executive function skills mean to you?Michael Delman 03:50Yeah, it's way to make a living. Hannah Choi 03:56That's why you're in it, for the money??? Michael Delman 04:01Actually, honestly, it's the only way that anyone can make a living is with I think decent executive function skills. Hannah Choi 04:07Yeah, you got that, right. Michael Delman 04:09So we're in there to help a lot of people, definitely myself included in kind of the skills, tools, orientation that that it provides. So executive functioning skills are all about self management, the ability to regulate yourself to kind of, you know, understand how to get calm and focused, and, and organized and prioritized and then really know how to get things done. I think, I think, you know, a lot of us have ideas of what we want to do. And I know many people who have a lot more ambition or talent than I do, but I think my strength is probably making use of whatever executive function skills I do have, and then executing on on the skills you know, On on the on the vision. So that's EF skills let you, they really let you capitalize on, on whatever strengths you do have and kind of work around your challenges.Hannah Choi 05:13So what are your strengths?Michael Delman 05:16I've got probably two, maybe three. Um, the first is, I'm really good at prioritizing, I tend to clear away the BS. And there will be times where my inbox is just super loaded and just way too much in it. But that's a price I'm willing to pay to make sure I've dedicated time for my priorities, you know, a new idea, reviewing key data points, making sure someone on the team gets the support they need. So focusing on priorities really, really, really critical. The second is, I'm not afraid to work hard. So, you know, pretty good at getting started on things that I don't like the task initiation piece, and then the sustained attention. So call that one or two more. And then really the the final piece and the one that I think is probably most integral to my ability to make progress is the reflective metacognitive piece. So I make a lot of mistakes, I make more mistakes than the average person for sure. No, no, for real, I do. Foot and Mouth Disease is like they name that like, I literally they have a picture of me next to that. AndHannah Choi 06:34A.K.A. the Michael Delman disease?Michael Delman 06:36he's really good at getting the foot out and then going, you know, now that we've just done that, let's talk about how we can prevent that. Let's talk about what we could learn from that. So fortunately, people seem to be generally forgiving. When you acknowledge your your faux pas, faux pauses, I don't know what the plural for anyway. But the numerous faux pas in kind of my daily regimen, so I find that, that there's a certain humility that I have and need to have, that allows me to be an ongoing learner. And so that's that's like a real, honestly, it's a pleasure for me, like making mistakes doesn't really faze me that much.Hannah Choi 07:24And I think that when, when someone is so when a leader especially is so openly comfortable with talking about their challenges, or talking about mistakes that they've made, it, it gives, it gives, it probably gives a lot of people permission to think, oh, okay, if he, if he can make that mistake, own it and then learn from it, then then, then it probably helps people feel like, oh, okay, I can do that, too. I feel like that's...Michael Delman 07:54 Yeah, I appreciate you saying it like that, I think that's become a more conscious aspect of that kind of that tendency. Initially, for me, it was just simply almost a almost like a defensive mechanism for me, like, a necessity to, like, apologize all the time, or, you know, and then it shifted over time, from just apologizing to apologizing and trying to make improvements. Over time, it's been a conscious way to lead of, hey, we all make mistakes. Let me tell you a story, you know, and people like, you did them again. And that was that I did that. So it's I don't know if, you know, that's entirely good or not. But overall, I've found that, yeah, we all need a little bit of freedom to learn, and you can't really learn if you're constantly afraid of failing. So I think that that, I do think that that's a good thing coming from my position, as the leader of the company that I'm doing it certainly we have the greatest understanding of in total lack of judgment of any of our clients, and no, in addition to our staff, who were learning, make mistakes along the way. And we're good with that. We're okay with that. I do think that in my seat in the company, and I think for company leaders, there is a limit to what you can allow in, uh, in your staff, if they're not able to or willing to look at, you know, areas for improvement, because that is we're asking that of our clients, we truly have to be able to model it. And I you know, it's one of the things when we hire, you know, some of our core values include courage and openness, and, you know, integrity. So if you're going to live those things and be a Part of the staff, you know, like that that's really important. It may not be as absolutely critical in every place in the world, they know what matters for us and what we do.Hannah Choi 08:36So, and is that? Is that something that you have learned? Like, did you when you first started working out? Did you feel that way? Or is that something that has kind of developed and, and grown over the years of your experience what's feel which like, like feeling those those core values like those, the, you know, the asking that of your staff like to be to be to have courage and to be open.Michael Delman 10:38(coughs) I'm sorry, recovering from a joint bout of COVID and pneumonia, not a not recommended for anyone. So, I think I always felt intuitively, that those were important things they were when I was a school principal. And here, I knew that naming values was important. And humility was always there, growth was always there. I think it really took on an extensive amount of work that our leadership team did with feedback from literally our entire staff, to name the values more explicitly and simply, and to be able to kind of elucidate what each of those meant, in practice. And so I think once you've done that, and involved everybody, then holding people to that is part of your agreement is, this is just what we all we all understand. So I do think having those things explicit, is is more important, or adds a certain, you know, gives you a little more backbone to hold people to it. So, you know, that said, we're fortunate, I mean, we've we've really got, we've got the people, so it's not, that aren't huge, you know, huge problems that we need to immediately address. It's just, it does remind us all of when we and we bring up those words in our conversation, you know, like, Yeah, is that really integrity? Is that Is that does that really align? You know, are we you know, are we doing the right thing by everybody in that decision? That kind of thing?Hannah Choi 12:27 So, right. So, when you first started out, like, how did you, how did you get to where you are now? And how did you learn all the things that you've learned to be where you are, I've been with you for a while, and I it's a great company to work for? And I just like how did how did we get here?Michael Delman 12:50Well, um, I guess, kind of, I'll speed it up. As you know, I'll just start with the kind of the origin story, probably my my black lesson plan book from being a school teacher, everything I did as a teacher, every lesson, I just always would take notes afterward on what could have been better. And I think that that, that, that reflectiveness, that real eye for professional growth, professional development was really foundational. It was something where I knew I was going to, I was probably going to fail as teacher, if I didn't do that I needed to, I need to figure out things like classroom management, and good lesson planning and those sorts of things. And I was determined, because it was a dream, it was a passion. And I had a rough first year, and I was, I did not want to, I don't want to live like that. I want to have really great teaching experiences and great learning experiences. So the charter school is next. And that really emerged again, almost as a necessity because it was, I felt that there was more that I want to accomplish than could be done just under the auspices of my particular room, for example, like, kids didn't see connections between the subjects. I wanted that to be seen. Kids were kind of going through the motions a lot, just because whatever, they're just in school that because they have to be I want school to be a place where they could see like, Oh, this is exciting. I'm learning I'm doing something of value. So that was the charter school. That was super exciting partner within Outward Bound, kind of affiliated group and it was just really great. And then that wasHannah Choi 14:36Waid, can I stop you for one second? So you went from teaching what for one year to opening a charter school?Michael Delman 14:42Eight years. I taught for eight. Yeah, so though, but those eight you know, during those eight years, it was there were constant lessons and, and so much to learn. I mean, you could learn, you could teach and learn for forever, you know, decades and decades. I have friends who still teach and always learning. But for me, there came a point where I thought, I need to have a school where everybody is kind of sharing the same same values, the same enthusiasm, the same perspective on what a school is capable of. And, and so that school, which is still around doing great, it's a, you know, I love that place and what it's all about, it's really extraordinary opportunity I had there, but then to kids, you know, into it, and for years and his principal and working all sorts of hours and days of the week that are not days, and hours that you should be working, I needed something a little more sane. And, and then I also was a little bit distant from, you know, like, the actual work. And so I want to be back on the ground more. So I started beyond booksmart different name at the time thinking outside the classroom. And, you know, and I started that, because we'd had kind of, uh, you know, how the schools have typically like a bell curve of students, right, you know, in terms of, you know, these your average kids easier. I see, well, we had more of a barbell, you know, like, it was, like, you know, we had kids that were all sorts of kids were twice exceptional, as we call them now, you know, smart, but scattered, and it just seemed that we drew kids that were in a lot of ways like me, that were, they really wanted to learn, but they had something in their way. And I've always had those challenges those those executive function challenges myself, and so it was a real pleasure to kind of like, figure that out, and to build a school that would create, like, really, really rich opportunities for deep research and work, but also provide all that support the necessary support, to enable that, that level of ambition to be, you know, to kind of be potentiate it. So that was over a period of several years. And then so Beyond BookSmart, emerged as a chance to really do something special for students without all the restrictions of those nightmarish bureaucratic reports you have to do, and many, many stakeholders instead is really focus on what does this person actually need. And it really, I didn't ever anticipate in the early days that it would be as big or as popular, it was just something that I felt I had to do. And the demand kept coming. You know, we expanded from middle school and high school to elementary and then college and then adults and, you know, new division now on its way that we're built. You know, it's been done for a bit now on on schools, and, and corporations, but it's just there are a lot of opportunities that that keeps seeming to evolve, because it feels like these are the skills people most need right now.Hannah Choi 18:21It, you know, I've been picking my kids up on the playground after school for the last six years. And when I, when people asked me, you know, what do you do for work? And I tell them, they, in the beginning, they never knew what I was talking about. And now when it comes up people, so many more people know what executive function skills are. And it's been really interesting to see, to measure the awareness through rather people know what I do for my job or not. So yeah,Michael Delman 18:57It is starting to make waves and you know, like the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, you know, which, you know, Zuckerberg of Facebook, whatever. Take away all the things to talk about on that. Just focusing on on this, they chose three areas to focus on reading, mathematics, and executive function skills. So that was a real acknowledgement from a group that you know, a large, large business, one of the world's biggest saying, this is really, really going to be so the critical 21st century skills, if we're going to even make it to the 22nd century as an intact civilization with, you know, where we are wrestling with problems that require a level of insight and discipline and focus and maturity, that metacognition metacognition, the emotional regulation, the impulse control, that we we really are, you know, we're seeing a lot of breakdown in the world and in our own country. And it's hard because breakdown leads to breakdown, you know, you see other people losing it and badly behaved and all over the place, he just just watch the news. These are the skills that I think can save us. I mean, I think they're the skills are truly I mean, on a personal level, they lead to much better personal success, and that's excellent, it's good for us, you know, any of us individually that are doing well, that's great. But they also really, I think, fundamental skills to the fabric of our, of our society, people who can look at more than one side have a, you know, have an argument, and, and be calm with that, you know, and, and people who can say, you know, I'm not going to make up facts, I'm gonna go with reality, I'm going to be paced, I'm going to do what's realistic, I'm going to compromise. So for the greater good. I mean, these are things that, you know, we hope for, and often don't see in our official elected leaders, for example, but we can do it on local levels, we can do it with each other, we can do it on a community basis. And, you know, take the politics out of it, and just have, as humans kind of think thoughtfully together. And, and so I think these executive function skills are the root of the familial success are the roots of community success. And obviously, they're the root of individual success. So, you know, if we contribute to that, then that's really like, that's amazing. That's a that's, that inspires me, right?Hannah Choi 21:46Yep. Something that I've said before, in, in, on the podcast, and that's something that I know a lot of us, probably every coach feels is that when we after a client graduates and they go out into the world, we hope that they can teach, teach their friends, or teach their siblings or their parents or somebody, something that they've learned, and maybe they just teach it through modeling. But just I love thinking about them being out in the world, and, and I sharing all that,Michael Delman 22:15yeah, and I even love the stories of kids teaching their own parents, you know, like, the kid learns something in one of our sessions, like the five finger breathing and, you know, some sort of way to self regulate, or the hand model the brain or, you know, what, neuroplasticity? Is any of that. And then the parents say, you know, this is really useful for me, do you think could I get the coaching to and, you know, or whether or not they need it, they see oh, my gosh, you know, it's pretty transformative. So, yeah, so good stories.Hannah Choi 22:49That comes up a lot, where, and when I was talking with Peg Dawson, about how parent adults, they feel like there's this pressure that they're that they should just already have that all figured out. And, and, and of course, we don't, or a real realization, like, oh, that's why, like, that's why I can't do X, Y, or Z. And that it's okay. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, or you know, anything is wrong with you. But, and then there's strategies and tools and things that you can learn to make it easier.Michael Delman 23:30And you were kind enough to ask me what my strengths were early. So apparently, you know, at least anyone listening might at least temporarily believe I've got straights. But but you know, when it comes to the areas of challenge, and, you know, what's kind of driven me to work on this stuff, emotional regulation, that's always been profoundly difficult for me. You know, I struggle with that, both because of ADHD and mental illness struggles that I had growing up. And these were not things that I necessarily wanted to learn. They were things that I had to so the self reg piece, learning to manage strong feelings really, really just for me, absolutely critical. Organization. Luckily, the camera's view is limited. It's not my forte, I work around it, I It's better than it used to be. It's good enough. I do what I must, but, you know, I tend to lean on my strengths and then the weaknesses, I've tend to develop compensatory strategies to work around. But I think, for all of us, you know, we definitely need we need to acknowledge that those areas of challenge that's okay. I mean, we all have, you know, we're don't have to be perfect. Hannah Choi 24:48And I think I think some of that reflection piece that you were talking about, it really comes into play there. And if you are able to stop and reflect and think about like Who Am I? And where am I in? What do I want? And where am I going? And am I happy with with this? And, and it's really difficult to do that. And it's also it also ends up being difficult because you often don't know the answer. Like you don't know...25:13I will tell you, I'll tell you a funny story. I never shared this on a podcast before or any interview. But when I was, I think six or seven years old, is one of my earliest memories came home. I had been picked on at school for just being me being me or kids being mean, or whatever it was, and, and I, my mom sat me down on the stairs, I remember we were like three or four stairs from the bottom. And, and I told her, she very empathetically said, "Well, what do you think you could do differently?" And it's very interesting, because on the one hand, it's a little bit, you know, I'm six or seven, I have no idea. You know? Secondly, it's, it's also it's like, well, what about the Oh, poor thing? You know, that must have been so hard. Let's go, let's go beat those kids up, you know? Hey, Mom, you know, me and dad, you know, come over, we beat the crap out of this. But I'm, it is one of my earliest memories, which is trying to figure out, oh, what could I do to improve the situation? Now, I think one of the key things, one of the reasons it was successful, was, as I said, it was said with some degree of empathy, there was a, it was probably more of the tone than the words just like, ah, you know, like, it could have just been that much just a little, Oh, sweetie, you know, well, what do you think, you know, maybe we are you, you know, could do that would, you know, or might might do differently? Yeah, I think that that was kind of taught to me at an early age is, you know, what do you control? What's within your power? So I, although, you know, we talked to Beyond BookSmart a lot about "knock before entering", we talked about kind of R before T, right, you know, "reach before teach" and, you know, "relationship before task", but the Relationship was there. And yeah, and the Reach was there. So I think that that made it easier, you know, that she could teach me because she'd already reached me. And I do think that that's, I think that is what we want to develop in our in our kids is, what is within your sphere of control your sphere of influence, and, you know, and not just your sphere of worry, right, you know, those those well known sphere so far. Otherwise, it's just, well, that person's a jerk that I'll tell you a funny story. I was in college, and I found myself in therapy. I was like, Oh, my God, you know, there's so much on my mind. And, and I complained about someone who is just a complete "beep", you know, can't say the word. And therapist said, "Michael, I'll tell you some, there's never a shortage of beeps." And honestly, you know, like, honestly, have anything said to me, like in that entire therapeutic experience, that was the one that resonated was never a shortage of that was what do I.Hannah Choi 28:31So what are you going to do? When are you going to do differently? Yeah, please. Yeah. I know, that's, you know, I see that a lot with my kids, you know, if they're struggling with a teacher that they don't like, or, you know, whenever it's such a, it's a hard lesson to learn, but it's so important, because you're right, there's never a shortage of beeps, andMichael Delman 28:50never shortage in the world. I had a student I was coaching her years ago. And she was a senior, great kid. And, you know, I said, What's one of the things that you learned this term? And she said, Well, what I learned is that, at the end of the term, I am done with that teacher that I could not stand. But I'm never done with a grade that she gave me. And I was like, oh, you know what? Good for you. Yeah. And I figured it out. It doesn't really matter that you didn't love that teacher. It's, I mean, granted, it would have been a lot easier for her if it had been a teacher that understood her and empathize and connected and, you know, figured out the ways to make learning accessible for her all that stuff. But really best that she could do given that given the situation was, What could she do? So? Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:47So I'm just curious about more, to learn more about what it's like to be the leader of a company that that teaches people how to develop their executive function skills, does that impact you as a leader? And does it impact how you create your teams and how you structure the company even like down to meetings? Like, cuz I imagine you build executive function thought into all of that way more than other companies, might.Michael Delman 30:24We, we tend to hire people who have really good executive function skills. It just makes it easier because they'll do their jobs better than people that, you know, on average, you know, don't. Some of it is is, you know, some of it is really it's the people, and it's the structures, we definitely structure things. I guess, Hannah, you know, I'd probably look at a couple of aspects. The first is, we are definitely a learning organization, we're always, always inviting in like, an, you know, new consultants with new perspectives, to challenge us, because what you think, you know, and what was really effective, say, last year, or for the past two or three years, now, it needs some some rethinking, we tend to be pretty structured. And I'd say increasingly, so we've got really good dashboards to measure what are called KPIs or key performance indicators, to look at things like, you know, customer retention, and customer satisfaction, and really like predictive scores about customer health, and are we doing the things that they want and addressing their needs proactively? Those kinds of things on the one hand, so really like the right structures for, are we onboarding people in a way that they understand what this journey is, you know, that it's not a quick fix that it really is there, there's real work, and that's going to take time, those kinds of things. And then just the way we work with each other, the agendas, you know, every person I meet with, we have a color coded agenda, you know, with action items are highlighted with, you know, with due dates, etc. But then there has to be a place to keep track of all those dates. Otherwise, you have to scroll through too many places. So like with the school division, we have a pretty tight Gantt chart, you know, which are these long, measurable, you know, a lot a lot of rows on for every kind of key item key x, I'm in that initials of who's assigned it. In the core division, we use these quarterly goals, trackers, and we color code, how far along we are on each thing, each each major goal for the quarter for each department. I think it's also there's just the way that we communicate with each other, there's a lot of checking, preventing, assumption making. So you know, being sure that "Did that make sense?" Or, um, so there are a lot of pings directly from a document on clarifying questions. We use certain protocols where, you know, people present something, and then there are clarifying questions, probing questions. And then reflection from the person who did the presentation. So kind of these these tuning protocols are, there are shared mero boards where we brainstorm, and many people are working together. And then we're kind of quantifying what we have there for, like, that's how we did the core values as an example, to see which core values were consistently represented. And which ones were kind of anomalies that weren't really core? So there are I mean, there are so many tools, you know, out there, the ones I've mentioned, and, obviously, infinity, more of them. But it's, um, it's really a commitment to always figuring out how can we communicate effectively with each other. And honestly, with ourselves, like internally, like, you know, because you have all these great ambitions, and you can say, you're gonna do all these things, we can make a, you know, lengthy to do list and just not get to it. And again, that does come back to really get back to prioritizing what is it that is important enough that that's your focus, that's where you're dedicating time. And then these things are those are nice to do if you if you get to them, but it's not as critical. So yeah, I'd say that executive function skills are 100% infused into almost everything we do.Hannah Choi 34:46And that makes me think about how, how we were talking earlier about how if if everyone had access to this kind of knowledge, and even if you just think about leaders of companies, so leaders of companies See, they they know their business, but they might not know executive function skills, like your business is executive function skills. So you know that and so it's probably easier for you to build that into a company structure. So if people are like kids who, you know, don't like maybe they go to a school where, where executive function skills aren't explicitly taught, or if they, you know, I don't know, there's so many different areas, I just think I always wish that everyone could have access to it. And I know, I'm sure that's been a struggle for you, you know, wanting to provide access to everybody. But then being limited.Michael Delman 35:38While we have definitely gotten a lot of interest on the corporate side, and it's something that we will develop ultimately in a in a meaningful way. We really only do that on an, you know, on demand basis, we don't solicit it, but there is a sequence to things and the thing that is really my passion and focus right now, is our school division. That is my Yeah, I mean, it's just I know, our whole staff is behind this. Many of us come from a school background, we know that teachers are they've overwhelming jobs, anyone who was not taught really doesn't have a clue how hard teaching is. And it's, um, it you need support, to understand how you manage scraping papers, and managing 25 disparate personalities in a room at a time. You know, and it's just it's, it's a really challenging job. The other thing about the schools is it democratizes access, because schools can pay for really relatively low, low price, and amount of money that will then elevate the game, have all their teachers help all their students. You know, and again, democratizing access is a huge, huge principle, too. I started the charter school was I wanted to provide a private school quality education for those who couldn't afford it. And even though there's pushback among some in the public school community, the district's like, you know, well, you know, that's, we don't support charter schools, I've done it, and it made a huge difference. And I no regrets. And I taught in the regular District Public Schools before that, and I know, we made a difference that we improved all the schools around us. So you know, the, the chance to do this for us, like if we could have every school in the United States of America, and, you know, well beyond it to learn about executive function skills, understand how they're developed, how to help their kids develop them how to work around the challenges, I mean, you know, that's a legacy that's, that would be life complete.Hannah Choi 37:54I'm just gonna pause here to give you some information on where to find out more about BrainTracks, the school support division of Beyond BookSmart that Michael's talking about here. He believes it is so important to lay down tracks or neural pathways for executive function in the brain when our kids are young and to give teachers additional tools to support this brain development. And BrainTracks is designed to do just that. And to learn more, you can go to the website, braintracks.com or send an email to info at braintracks.com. Okay, back to the conversation. Hannah Choi 38:30Do you think that or how do you think the pandemic has impacted people's experience with their own executive function skills and just maybe awareness of them?Michael Delman 38:41It's well, definitely, the pandemic's been a challenge on all of our executive function skills. And I think it begins with that kind of that emotional challenge, right? You know, we talk a lot about like, if the two parts of the brain there are many parts, but you know, the, the emotional amygdala and that whole limbic system and all that, you know, here, and then the prefrontal cortex is where executive function skills reside right here. When you are worried about whether your job will be there, whether you can get toilet paper, whether you will live or die, because there's no vaccine. Those are, I mean, people were flipping the lid all the time. And so it was a time really where we had to regulate ourselves. First, we had to get that government money to make sure our company was stable. We had to shift everything we did go 100% online, we're about 50 60% online, but this 100% immediately, and then we had to build things that were really relevant for everybody now working from home learning from home, you know, so all those adjustments were necessary for us to stay relevant because people's problems were suddenly much bigger, everyone was struggling with mental health issues of anxiety, depression, you know, things like that, those have remained challenge less. So now that people are vaccinating able to go out and about much more, much more normally. I think we've had a permanent shift, though, in the landscape. In some ways for the better, I think a lot of us have found the benefits of working from home of getting support from home, we see that it's convenient, it can be actually super connected, we can really like talk to each other, it's, it's in some ways, less intrusive. So there's a lot of upside. But I do think that the, the, you know, the EF challenges when you are dealing with so much uncertainty is hard. And, you know, we're we're dealing with a recession, and a bear market and all those kinds of things to people worry, but kind of like, like they say, if you don't desperately need your money, and it's in the stock market, during a bad time, wait, because it'll go back up again. It's, it's also, if you can, during a difficult time, continue to do your habits, you know, meditate in the morning workout at some point during the day, you know, do your journaling, or, you know, get the coaching and the support. You know, all the things that just kind of like, keep you steady. do that because those habits are even more necessary during these times. And then they just, gosh, when as things get easier, you're just well equipped for totally capitalizing on all the opportunities that are there as as things do, you know, become more normalized and easier again.Hannah Choi 42:00And how do you what do you think about the the increase in mental health challenges that we're seeing, and especially in college kids and teens, and their connection with executive function skills there? And what are your feelings about all that?Michael Delman 42:18It's, um, it's devastating. You know, so having a daughter just graduated college, another one who just graduated high school. They are, my two girls are really, they're level headed, and they know how to get started. And they just, you know, they get their work done. That said, it's been anywhere even for them from boring to frustrating to outright depressing at times, just to deal with things. If you have genuine tendencies toward mental health challenges, anxiety and depression, things like that. These these are really, really challenging times, I do think that there are a lot of teachers and even whole institutions that are responsive, and you need that you need the institution itself to, to respond, make adjustments, I think there's a, there's a saying that's there for a reason, when all else fails, lower your standards. That is not a horrible admission of defeat. It means if you interpret a little bit differently than maybe just a negative one, it means be real with what's going on around, you look at the context, you know, maybe maybe you thought you were going to be able to do all these courses, maybe do one less course, during this time. Maybe you know, what it means is, instead of, you know, doing every single page of the reading, you learn how to read more for just getting the main ideas when you're feeling too stressed. You know, maybe it means getting support, either therapeutic support, you know, some sort of professional therapist, or coaching support to learn how to be more efficient and, you know, learn how to be more effective with your executive function skills. But I think the foolish thing would be to act as if everything is exactly the same. You know, "keep calm and carry on" and it only gets you so far. I mean, keep calm and carry on. It's a nice little thing to say. But the question is how, like, how do you keep calm how, you know, how do you carry on which things do you decide to let go of? My older daughter, she was just doing everything at school. I mean, so many things, and they were all pretty cool. And then she said one day, I think I'm gonna drop this executive committee. I'm on On for this thing is just like it's really kind of tangential in my life, it's not that it doesn't bring any joy, it's not something that really adds a lot of value to the world. It's not that relevant to my resume. And, and it's that kind of one more straw, you know? And she's like, you know, do you have any anything to say about it, which I was amazed she, you know, asked for my opinion. And I was like, you know, yeah, I have to say, I'm really proud of you, like, good for you for deciding what matters and what doesn't matter. And, again, good prioritizing. I think that that, you know, again, it's, you don't have to lower your standards on everything, what you have to do is make choices. And I think that's hard. It's hard when you're anxious, because then you're worried what if I'm making the wrong choice? You know, what, if it's a choice that's going to lower your anxiety? It's probably a good choice. What if you know, you know, or you feel, oh, you know, I'm, I'm so stupid I, I should be able to do better. So it's got nothing to do with it? You know, get those cents out of it. Yeah. Don't sit on yourself. Right? So it really is where? Where are you? Do the best you can right now. And when you're ready, you know, do more, but just try to keep up decent health, health, giving habits and, and focus on the things where you're gonna get the best return on investment. I mean, that's what it's all about. And I think what young people don't always understand that we get as adults a lot better. Is that that's what you have to do as an adult. Yeah. And what the problem is, when you're in high school, sometimes you get the message from teachers. Everything I say is important. Doesn't matter if it's on the exam, actually, it does. It does matter if it's on the exam. If it's not, you might not spend as much time reviewing it, studying it. You really do need to get good at really discerning what matters and what doesn't matter. It's really what it's all about.Hannah Choi 47:08That just reminds me so much of a a conversation that I had with a freshman in college client, we talked about diminishing returns, and how you know, as you're working, you got to pay attention. Like, are you enjoying what you're doing? Are you being efficient or effective anymore? And she said it had never really occurred to her to pay attention to that. And and we were thinking it's because when you're in high school, and all through school, and your parents are telling you, your parents are telling you what you have to do. Your teachers are telling you what you have to do. You know that like the teacher who says it's all important, even if it's not on the test. And that's a skill that you have to learn as you become more independent. And I guess it's part of becoming more independent is recognizing, okay, this being on this committee is actually no longer important to me. And yeah, and she probably your daughter probably felt like, yeah, like you said, like, she should do it. So my client felt like she, she should study for 45 minutes, because that's what the timer she set for this, you know, this topic, but then if she noticed, after 25 minutes that she was reading the same paragraph over and over again. And it's like, yeah, why wasted another 20 minutes switch to something else? Right. Right. So that's the hard thing to learn,Michael Delman 48:23I guess, you know, it's funny, I have this list of essential concepts for life. They are they're ones that apply off, you know, kind of first and foremost from a field of origin like economics, or say, you know, political science or psychology or math or whatever, you know, things. Things like diminishing returns, as you're just mentioning, or I mentioned, return on investment, you know, or opportunity cost, you know, yeah, I could do this. But what else? What am I giving up? What's the most valuable thing I could be doing during this time, it's sometimes the most valuable thing is actually resting, letting the brain reset. Sometimes it's exercising, sometimes it's reconnecting with an old friend, you know, they're all in or doing a creative creative outlet. There are many, many different things that are that are worth your time. It's not head down, or head down, you're gonna run into something ultimately, right. So quote me on that one. Head down, you're gonna run into something so good.Hannah Choi 49:31Look up every once in a while!Michael Delman 49:32Look up, pal! So but I think it's really important to look up and to and to figure out is this is this the best thing to be doing now? I'd say actually a sad but worthwhile example. I was told about a town government where they had 90 different projects that they're working on 90 projects. I think the town budget something like $200 million or something. It's it's not a small number. Um, And there was a new project brought forward really good idea. And they said, "Well, we have to get the other 90 done first, before we can add something." That's not the way you want to think. And you know, and I'm not trying to pick on government. I mean, certainly if I were I would not pick on town government at at the beginning. That's a local government. And they're still like, well, we've got this, you know, head down, head down, oh, my gosh, you've just been given something that's going to get way more return on investment, you know, and yet, you're going to give up, you're not even going to look at that, because you've got all these other things that you say you're committed to. So again, those executive function skills, whether it's individual level, family level, schools, businesses, government, I mean, it doesn't matter. Like these are the skills, that they're just going to increase everybody's productivity, it doesn't resolve the one thing EF skills don't do is resolve differences in values, right? Like, they can help clarify differences in values. But, you know, sometimes there truly are competing values, one person believes this and other believes that that's okay, then you can together figure out alright, well, given our differences in values, how do we come up with quick example? Guns, it's actually a really good example. There's probably nobody out there who's like, "it would be great if more people died from gun violence, right?" There's like, nobody thinks anyone really believes that. And, you know, probably most people are like, well, you know, some guns for some purposes, target practice, maybe some people are like, yeah, for hunting, you know, whatever it's like it. And then you got all the stuff in the middle. The problem is, things get really polarized. So you've got people that are pretty much pretty different ends of the of the of the perspective. But if you get away from some of the language of like gun control, and some of the language, it's coming out now a little better, like gun safety. That seems like a language that, okay, how do we make for better gun safety in a way that doesn't restrict the rights of people for the most part that want their guns, and manage them responsibly, and yet doesn't allow them in the hands of people that are going to be a true threat to themselves and others. And, you know, those kinds of things. There's virtually no topic that I can't, that I've never died, but I used to be a public policy major in college, where I found that there are places it's just people go to their little corners, and then they fight. And then they dig in emotionally. And you know, head down and, you know, buttheads not, you know, so maybe one side wins for a while, then another side wins for a while, but it doesn't really, you know, come up with sustainable solutions. So, and, you know, we need those.Hannah Choi 52:58Peg Dawson was talking about how she has divided the executive function skills into two groups, like foundational skills and advanced skills. And, you know, some of the last to learn that we learned are like, flexible thinking, and, and, and metacognition, and, you know, perspective taking, and those are all the skills that are that are required for exactly that, you know, even the change in vernacular, right? Someone was using flexible thinking, to, to get there, you know, and to change how we Yep, key, just a simple one word switch can change people's orientation to it. vMichael Delman 53:34Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And not to be naive. There are truly forces of money and evil, you know, in any space. But, but yeah, but when you're talking about people that are truly have just goodwill and trying to figure out things, then, you know, yeah, I mean, that, that, that open mindedness and, yeah. ability to think flexibly. That's where the solutions that probably will help us all to be a better species. We'll, we'll get there. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 54:05So hopefully we can improve everyone in the world their executive function skills.Michael Delman 54:10Yeah. Well, he and I just, I'll say it starts with working on ourselves. It's, you know, anyone who knows me? I mean, they have stories they have, like, like, how did you lose so many things in one weekend? Michael? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, that was a it was amazing. Kind of set a record there. I mean, there are Hannah Choi 54:34I want to hear that story.Michael Delman 54:36 Skiing ski weekend with my friends. Let's just say that we weren't entirely disciplined the whole time. We were just it was just it was a party weekend with the boys. Where are my gloves? Where's my water bottle? I may see my water bottle you know, you know whatever it was there was always something missing. And you know, four guys with ADHD you know, offers weekend is A lot of fun. Sounds great. But yeah, I mean, those kinds of things, and it's all but it's, it's not a matter, you know, whatever being perfect, it's just, it's just a matter of like always, I don't know, keeping some humility and working on yourself and, and, and then maybe have something to teach other people as well given given that this is what you obsess about constantly, and document and systematize and train people in and yeah, you know, you don't have to pretend that you're the person with all the perfect skills and this all came so easily. In fact, one of the reasons I feel I can be helpful is because of the some of the personal challenges. And, you know, when, when I was in college, and I, I tried to drop out of a class because I could not keep up with the reading, it was just too much. And I was a freshman. And I thought, you know, like, I don't know, probably better to drop one course than to fail everything trying to survive this one Latin American studies course. And in a way, that was good thinking, but my professor insisted on meeting with me. And he said, Michael, why can't you know, why are you dropping? And I said, the books are too long. And he said, How do you read them? I said, I read page one. And then I go to page two, isn't that what you do? He said, No, you got to learn how to use like SQ3R - Survey, Question, Read, Recite, Review, or whatever the name was, at that time, and really how to read more like a detective and search for clues. And what I learned from that was I had been reading, so inefficiently my whole life, and still was it like, you know, Ivy League institution, in spite of that, with that tool, and that approach, and guilt free because it was taught by a professor, there you go, I became a really efficient reader. So, you know, I'm never going to be the person that can read one page to the next next as quickly as other people. It's not, you know, I don't have that scanning. And that, that a built those some of those physical abilities there. But I understand the technique, and it's made me just much more efficient. So, you know, I, I love probably almost more than anything, Hannah is when someone says, oh, my gosh, that would be so much better. That would be so much easier. You know, and I know, you get that as a coach, you just know, it's like, Oh, yeah. And then they try it. And they, you know, and they come up with their own solutions. After a while they don't even, you know, they just need to kind of run something by us. And then it becomes theirs. You know, theyHannah Choi 57:50I feel like this, this theme of we talked about it in the very beginning. And I know it comes up a lot in sessions and is the idea of almost like being given permission. Even though the permission was there all along. We just didn't know, to do things differently. And to do things in a way that works for you. Like, you have to hear that professor tell you that. And it changed everything for you. And you you grew up thinking, Okay, this is how this is how you read you read page one. And then because they always say just read one to 30. And you're like, Okay, I guess I just read pages one to 30. Now, you know, no one ever, like tells you it's okay to do it differently. And they just getting permission to do to make things your own. Yeah. And then once you have that, okay, like my client who realized she doesn't have to follow the timer, she can follow her diminishing returns instead. And how many opportunities opens up when to allow yourself to think that way?Michael Delman 58:47Because, once you've once you've stopped writing between the lines enough times, and you've, you've seen that the approach, the one and only approach is not the one and only approach and that there are many others that other people have shown you trusted resources have shown you and then you start to come up with your own, you know, boom, you know, sky's the limit, then you start to see Oh, wow. Uh, you know, it's it. Remember I said earlier about who you are, is something that doesn't have to be so perfectly defined, it can evolve, you know, this is kind of that that micro example of it, how you do it doesn't have to be Oh, it's this is how you do it. Well, that you know, it like they say, You gotta you gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules, you kind of need you need an identity before you can kind of like break free of the need to constantly have an identity.Hannah Choi 59:43But yeah, when you something to work from, a place to work from.Michael Delman 59:48But as you are, you know, as you already have developed certain certain basic fundamental skills, a certain fundamental sense of who you are. Then you have some free them to kind of move from there to bigger and in a freer way of approaching, you know, the way you do things and indeed even who you are. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 1:00:14So what are you? I mean, other than the new division, BrainTracks love it, what are you excited about?Michael Delman 1:00:22Um I think I think just on a personal level, I'm excited to be done with being sick and get back out and play ultimate frisbee again, which is my passion. I'm excited to see the amazing things that my kids are doing as one goes off to college, one graduates from college. And we're empty nesters and, you know, more possibilities there. That'll be interesting. I think on the professional level, it's the school division is truly, truly like, should be enough to keep me fully engaged for a long time. But there's so much talent in that division that they don't need me all the time. The core division is really full swing, really, you know, kind of self running. No, you know, just great leadership on it in the you know, those places. I actually, in talking to you today, I saw something that I hadn't seen before, it never so clearly, which is more the, the not for profit, the governmental side, the helping bring people together in a more civic oriented way. It's always been a passion, it really is deeply connected to what I majored in, in college. And it's work that I do on the side with my kind of, I'm passionate about environmental issues, addressing climate change, because, you know, it's important that we have a planet that's sustainable if we're gonna do anything else. So. So I think, I think there's another another place for me another place for me to be able to build with executive function skills for not for profits, that are making the biggest difference in the world. So that that feels like something that maybe you helped me. You know, I've thought about it before. But as we've talked, I've realized, wow, I'm talking about it a lot. And I really, it really keeps resonating. So the schools were a big step on the way there. But there are so many good organizations that could use that, that kind of help in their processes. Yeah. So thank you.Hannah Choi 1:02:56And, yeah, you're welcome. And I would love for you to share a little bit about the work that you are doing for climate change. And I know you have you started an organization. Yeah. Website. Well,Michael Delman 1:03:07yeah, so it's called an hour a week. I think it's an hour a week.org. I'm gonna make sure to get that right. Because heck, wants to check it out. Yeah, it's an houraweek.org. And the, the essence, you know, could the essential idea behind it is I wanted to lower the price point of activism, lower the price point of making a difference. There are so many people that are like, Oh, my God, you know, the world is on fire, there's terrible problems. True, you know, you feel worse about it, though, if you think about it, and you talk about it, and you worry about any complaint about it, you don't do anything about it. But if you're putting in as little as one hour a week, or even possibly less, you know, it least then you can say, hey, it's true, it's a big old shit show out there in the world is really, you know, there are a lot of problems, but I'm doing a little a, you don't carry around that guilt that you just you don't need to be, you actually start to connect to other people. We have a a once a month meeting, it's literally one hour a month, not a week, one hour a month of actually meeting in a group. And so that's amazing. And, and so you're connecting to people and it gives you a sense of hope and inspiration that, okay, there's a lot of us and it's multiply. And then third, there are very specific simple actions to do between, you know, meetings. So each week, there's a couple of actions maybe it takes you five minutes or 10 minutes. If you want to put in a full hour go for it. You know, you want to put in more that's fine too. But that I just felt like my experience with the some of the environmental groups I've been involved in, are is has been, well you got to be really committed, and you got to know everything. As I know, most people don't know that much, and they're intimidating, it's intimidating, and you don't have a ton of time and you're trying to raise a couple of kids or, or whatever it is, and you got a full time job or two jobs and, and you don't want to make it elitist, or just for people that have retired. You want people that they just care. And they see, oh, there's connections between climate and social justice, and you know, and poverty and, and people who are dispossessed, and you know, and the air that we're breathing, that's, you know, all the stuff. I want it to be a place where you don't have to be an expert, or have a huge amount of time. So, so that's what I'm, that's what I'm doing. It's, yeah, it feels feels really good to put some time into that. And, you know, use some of the executive function skills there to organize and have people name their commitments, things like that. So cool. Yeah, thanks for asking on that one.Hannah Choi 1:06:03Yeah. So if there's one thing that you could choose, for people to take away from the work that you've done from your life, from your experiences, what would you share? If it's possible, to narrow it down to one,Michael Delman 1:06:21Try not to die. Like, you'll really, the longer you get to live more, more, more fun and more of a difference you can make. Other than stay alive. You know, I'd say, I'd say it see your life is a journey. It's, you know, it's old, it's old wisdom, but there's a reason it's that wisdoms there. The Station by Hastings, this story about being, you know, you're on a train, and you can't wait to get to the station where there's going to be some big party and, and you're like, cursing the trip, because it's taking so long, and you know, what, that the station at the end, that's the end, like the station is actually the end. So don't be in a rush, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, and, you know, connect to the people on the train, you know, and stop and enjoy. And I realized that that's not really so particular to executive function skills. But I think it's, it's really fundamentally the orientation that will allow us to enjoy our lives and make the most difference in the world, which are kind of my two fundamentals is, you know, pay attention to this being a process. You know, and, and, and make revisions along the way. You know, I had a student who, and I wrote about this in my book for parents, the your kids going to be okay book, where he had a very small amount of homework to do over the weekend, it was literally half an hour. And he didn't do it, and, and ended up getting a zero. His parents were disappointed, like, we went through what were all the costs, you know, and, and he listed them out, you know, all the cons to doing it the way he did it, or didn't do it. And, and I said, Well, let me ask you to at least have a lovely weekend, you know, or did you think about he said, Oh, I thought about I said, like, once? Or twice a little bit? He's like, No, probably, like, 30 times. Yeah. And I said, Oh, so you had a choice to either just do a half an hour and be done with it? Or think about it 30 times, let it ruin your weekend. Kind of like, like, you know, yeah, like in a kind of a low level way, kind of get your weekend, all weekend. And that's what you want with it. He's like, Yeah, probably not the best choice. I think, you know, sometimes you got to bite the bullet a little bit, eat the frog, whatever. But I think if you understand, like, there's this, there's this journey, and some of it's not what I want, and I can't control that. Just take that, do that little bit. And, and then enjoy the parts that you can, you know, I think that's just, it's just a better way to be, you're just gonna enjoy your life a lot more. You know, don't, don't hang on and try to make it just so and hope that you never die. You know, just enjoy the enjoy the journey. That's what you got, you know, and, you know, except Except some of the challenges that we have along the way. So that's, that's what I got for you, Hannah.Hannah Choi 1:09:49I love it. So where can our listeners find more about you and more about what you have maybe written? You want to share a little bit about what you've written?Michael Delman 1:09:58Oh, gosh, well, Let's see, I mean, the first thing would be the book, Your Kid's Gonna Be Okay. That's, you know, building executive function skills and the age of attention. And I do think that that's a really good one, particularly for parents, sometimes for teachers, even adults could get something out of that just for themselves, because there are a lot of tools in their, their various blogs and podcasts and things right on our website beyond booksmart.com where they click on those interviews, things like that. If you know they want more, if they haven't had enough yet. There are blog posts that I've written that are that are there, you know, that I think that those are the places to begin, you know, if they're interested in working more kind of through a corporate level or you know, that they can reach out through the company and we'll we'll find a way to get in touch. All right,Hannah Choi 1:10:54and I just I want to I do want to plug your book a little bit because I love how you you wrote it in such a way that's so accessible and so easy to read. And I think so many quote unquote self help books out there are can tend to feel very heavy and, and maybe there's like a lot of jargon or you know, this topics that feel beyond our scope of knowledge, and I felt like you really made it very presentable and1:11:19meant to be conversational, but yes, yeah,Hannah Choi 1:11:21yeah. Yeah. I love that. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Michael.Michael Delman 1:11:25What a pleasure!Hannah Choi 1:11:26Thank you for joining me. Hannah Choi 1:11:29And that's our show for today. I want to thank Michael Delman for joining me and I hope you enjoyed his stories and wisdom and were able to find a nugget of gold in there for yourself. As Michael says, He wishes for people to be able to see their life as a journey. So thank you for taking time out of your day to listen and for including me and focus forward on your own journey. If you like what you're hearing, please share focus. Where are we with your colleagues, your family and your friends. We love it when our listeners help spread the word about the importance of executive function skills for finding satisfaction and happiness in life. You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. You can sign up for our newsletter at www dot beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share information related to the topic. Thanks for listening!

In today’s episode, we're exploring the Executive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward, defines the skill of time management as “the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines”. She continues by arguing that this process starts with one simple insight: understanding that time is important in the first place! As an Executive Function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time and how it impacts their lives. Today, I’m going to share with you a 4-step system that I’ve developed that can help you build time-management strategies that you'll be able to use for life.Time Management BasicsHow To Master Time Management – ADHD Skills Part 1 - Dr. Tracey Marks6 Simple Motivation Hacks for a More Productive LifeTime Management Tip: The UnscheduleTransition from High School to College: Time Management is Key15 Practical Ways to Improve Time Management Skills - Lifehack3 Time Management Tips That Actually Work - James ClearBig Rocks Video with Stephen CoveyEisenhower Matrix/Covey QuadrantsHow to Use Covey's 4 Quadrants Matrix for Effective Time ManagementThe Eisenhower Matrix: How to prioritize your to-do listAvoid the "Urgency Trap" with the Eisenhower MatrixLearn how to use Stephen Covey's 4 time quadrants to maximize your productivityHow to be More Productive and Eliminate Time Wasting Activities by Using the “Eisenhower Box” - James ClearManaging Phone DistractionThese simple steps will help you stop checking your phone so much10 Strategies to Limit Your Teen's Screen TimeOfftimeDial D for Distracted | The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie SantosScreen Use and Screen Addiction Resource PageContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Before I dive into this episode, I wanted to let you know that you can listen and subscribe with ease to Focus Forward on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, and all the others. We'd love your help and sharing our podcasts too. So if you know someone who would benefit from our content, please share it with them. Our goal is to provide useful tips and life changing inspiration to as many people as possible, so thanks for your help. Hannah Choi 00:46In today's episode, I'm exploring the executive function skill of time management. Peg Dawson, my favorite executive function guru and a former guest on Focus Forward defines the skill of time management as the capacity to estimate how much time one has, how to allocate it, and how to stay within time limits and deadlines. She says it also involves a sense that time is important. As an executive function coach, time management is a skill that comes up as a challenge for pretty much all of my clients. Over the years, my clients and I have worked together to develop systems that help them take control over time, and how it impacts their lives. Hannah Choi 01:32Today, I'm going to share with you a system that I've developed that can help with this, it's got four components. First, figure out your relationship with time. Second, learn how to prioritize and then do some prioritizing. Third, implement tools and strategies that support your time management. And lastly, and most importantly, reflect on what you've done and modify your approach as needed. Hannah Choi 02:01If you're like, Man, I don't want to do all four steps, I just want to skip ahead to the tools and strategy section. That's okay, I get it. But hear me out for one sec. Yes, diving in and implementing tools and strategies right now will help in the short term, it will. But I truly believe that in order to make lasting change, and improve your time management skills for the long run, and you know, just like make it easier for your future self, you got to put in the time to do the other work. That being said, if you're still not convinced, skip ahead to about 12 minutes to hear the section on tools and strategies, I fully support your decision. And this next section will be waiting for you if you decide to come back for more. Hannah Choi 02:44All right, so if you're still with me, yay. Before we start, you just might want to get a pen and paper so you can write some ideas down. Taking notes is not just for students, it saves a ton of time for your future self and can absolutely help with being more effective with your time. Okay, so let's start with my first step, which as I said, is figuring out your relationship with time. And I don't mean that like weird part of a relationship where you're not sure if you're just friends, or if you've moved into them more-than-friends zone. Or you can actually just introduced them now as your boyfriend or girlfriend. I just mean how do you experience time? When you're doing stuff? Do you run out of time? Do you think things will take way longer than they actually do? Do you have a good idea of how time passes? Or do you have no idea that time is the thing at all. Learning about your relationship with time is valuable because it can help you plan and prioritize your day. If you know that you always run out of time when you're doing work for a particular class, then you know, you have to budget a little more time for those assignments. For example, I noticed that while I am actually quite good at time management, I do get overwhelmed when I have many things to do that are back to back. So I learned to always add 15 minutes to something to give me a little break before switching to a new activity. There are some good tools you can use to figure out this whole time relationship business. One of our favorites here at beyond booksmart is the BVA, which stands for budgeted versus actual. And this tool can help you figure out pretty darn quickly if you are an over or an under estimator of time. All right, so what you do is you pick a task. Well, ideally, you do this with a bunch of different tasks in different areas of your life. But if that feels like too much, that's okay. Just pick one thing. Okay, let's pick unloading the dishwasher. So you make a guess at how long it'll take you to unload the dishwasher. The then like start a timer and unload it at your regular speed but no rushing here, just regular speed. And then you remember to stop the timer. This is where I always get hung up and check the time was your guests over or under the actual time it took you, and by how much it can really help to be scientific about this. So if you can get yourself to time other tasks, I really encourage you to do it. But if not, just try to pay attention to whether you seem to run out of time or have time left over. It can also help to pay attention to what kind of tasks seem to take longer than you think they will. For example, tasks that require deep thinking and concentration, maybe physical tasks, and enjoyable or dreaded tasks. You might experience time differently with different things. So noticing these patterns can really help. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, so that's how we can use a BVA to test our relationship with time. And later on, I'll explain how we can use a BVA to help us prioritize and plan. Some other quick ideas for learning how you experience time, you could wear a watch with a timer function, or use a visual timer. You can find them online that they're called time timers. And those can show you the visual passing of time. And then you can see how you feel when you really see that time passing. You can also look at your phone usage data. I had a client whose jaw literally dropped when I had him look at this, he had no idea he had been spending that much time on his phone. I will never forget the look on his face the poor guy. You can also ask the people in your life that you trust to see what their opinion is about your relationship with time. I admit this can put you in a very vulnerable spot, but it might be a worthwhile exercise. Hannah Choi 06:43Okay, so now that we figured out if time is our boyfriend or not, let's learn how to prioritize. Prioritizing is extremely important if you want to be better at time management. When you learn to prioritize, you can more easily plan your day with intention. Doing this will help you find it easier to focus and be more present. As you go through your day, you'll likely be more efficient, and hopefully, you'll feel less overwhelmed by all the things you have to do. Hannah Choi 07:14Before I dive into some tools for learning how to prioritize let's take a nerdy look at the word priority. The etymology of the word priority is pretty interesting. It comes from the word prioritize, which basically means the most important thing. And up until the mid 20th century, the word had no plural, you could just have one most important thing. Over time, people began having more than one most important thing. And when we have too many most important things life can become hard to manage, it can be hard to focus and we might lose sight of what truly is important. Hannah Choi 07:56There are two great activities that can help you figure out what your most important things are, and how to make sure that you can fit them into your day. The first is the big rocks activity. You may have seen the video of the professor showing his class how you can fit more rocks, pebbles and sand into a jar if you start with the big rocks first. These rocks represent your most important things, which we plan first because as you can see, if you put the smaller things in life first, in this situation, the pebbles in the sand, you won't be able to fit your rocks. If you have no idea what I'm talking about. You can find the link to this video in the show notes. Hannah Choi 08:43Another fantastic exercise for figuring out priorities is the Eisenhower matrix. It's also known as Covey quadrants. This tool helps you figure out what things in life are urgent, not urgent, important and not important. Covey assigned quadrant numbers to the matrix. So in quadrant one, you have important and urgent tasks like studying for a test. Finishing up that presentation for your boss or signing up your child for that art class that usually fills up in minutes. In quadrant two are your important but not urgent tasks, such as exercising and spending time with your family. Quadrant three are the dreaded urgent but not important to you tasks. Phone calls that interrupt your work time emails are just things you feel like you should do because someone else asked you to do them. And then quadrant four is not urgent and not important. Doom scrolling, binge watching TV getting lost in social media. Those are all in this quadrant. Hannah Choi 09:52I could do a whole separate episode on strategies for managing the tasks within each quadrant. So unfortunately there is no way I can cover it all in today's episode. But I encourage you to try this exercise, assign the things you do all day into each quadrant and see where your priorities lie. And then check out the show notes for more ideas on how to manage them. Basically, it comes down to doing the quadrant one things, delegating the quadrant three things so that you can have more time for the quadrant two things. And quadrant four, that quadrant can actually be really helpful. If you find yourself spending a ton of time on quadrant four things, it might be your brains way of telling you it doesn't like how things are escaping to quadrant four may mean that you need to pay attention to what's going on in the other quadrants and maybe make some major shifts in your life. I've also heard of this matrix used with the qualities of productive, unproductive, necessary and unnecessary if these terms resonate with you more try this exercise using those qualities instead. Hannah Choi 11:07In addition to figuring out your priorities, there are some simple tricks you can use to prioritize and plan your day. A simple to do list with the most important task written at the top can work wonders. Some people like to start with the easy things to get the ball rolling. Usually I start with the worst thing first. Because if I don't get that worst thing out of the way, it just stares at me from my to do list with its beady little eyes and just ruins the rest of my day. Regardless of whether you start with the easy stuff, or the hard, the key is just to be realistic and not put too many things on that list. Hannah Choi 11:44You can also use that BVA I mentioned earlier when prioritizing the things you need to do in your day. When you use the BVA to time yourself, you'll then know how long things will take. And you'll know if you need to add extra time. And this will help you know when you can fit them into your day. Hannah Choi 12:03Once you know what your most important things are, how long things will take and what your relationship with time is like you can build routines into your day that are based on all this information. The more we can learn about ourselves and how we prioritize and plan, the more effective our time management will be. And we don't have to do this alone. There are tons of tools and strategies and resources out there that can support you in your quest to manage your time more effectively. Like I've said in pretty much every episode, there's no way I can cover every time management tool in this one episode. So I'll highlight a few and then I encourage you to check out the show notes for more ideas. Hannah Choi 12:46The first thing I recommend is to consider using a planner or a digital calendar if you're not already using one. Some people use them just for remembering things like dentist appointments, work schedules or other commitments like that. They can be especially useful for families or groups who are managing multiple people's schedules. Some people find planners and calendars helpful for scheduling what they'll do during their entire day. Ally, who shared her calendar strategy in our episode all about ADHD does this. She said she doesn't always follow it exactly. But she likes having it as a guide, and definitely gets more done on those days than on the days that she doesn't schedule it out. Hannah Choi 13:28Two really simple tools that can be used together are the to do list that I just mentioned, and the Pomodoro Technique as you work through that list. The Pomodoro Technique is a method of working in chunks of time. For example, you would work for 25 minutes, take a five minute break, and then go back to work. I also encourage my clients to pay attention to diminishing returns if they prefer not to use a timer. Diminishing Returns is an economic principle that can be applied here. In this situation, it means that the effort you're putting in no longer benefits you as it did when you first started the activity. So say you're reading and you realize that you have read the same line over and over again, it's probably time to take a break or switch activities. Hannah Choi 14:18There are a lot of tech options out there for supporting your time management. I am a big fan of timers and alarms. In addition to using a timer for the Pomodoro Technique, I use it to remind me of the passage of time. If I have a big project that I'm enjoying working on and I know that I need to stop at a certain point to go pick up one of my kids or attend a meeting, and I don't want to be interrupted by repeatedly checking the clock. I'll set an alarm for when I should stop working. I can then work without looking at the clock. Hannah Choi 14:51I also use calendar alerts to help myself as well. You can change the default Event Reminder to whatever works best for you. I have mine set for one hour, 30 minutes and 10 minutes, which sounds like a lot, but it really works for me. And in addition to calendar alerts, you can use digital reminders or tasks. both Apple and Google have these features. So if you're not already using them, I encourage you to check them out. And if you wear a smartwatch, you can configure it so that your calendar and task notifications pop up on your watch. This can be super helpful because you can see the notification without picking up your phone. Hannah Choi 15:31And speaking of phones, being mindful of your phone use, and keeping that in check is a big part of time management these days. Falling into the Instagram trap or getting stuck in some other Quadrant for activity is an annoyingly effective way of derailing your time management progress. Take a look at your phone usage and consider setting limits on how much time you can spend in apps that feel like time sucks. Research shows that just having your phone near you, even if you can't see it can impact your productivity. Try to experiment and leave your phone in the other room. Are you more productive and manage your time better when your phone's not around? Hannah Choi 16:10My last suggestion is to create a SMART goal for situations where you need to be very efficient with your time. If you aren't familiar with smart goals, I'll explain them for you here. SMART goals are an organized and thoughtful way of creating a system to help you reach a goal by making that goal more meaningful. Making goals more meaningful increases the chance of achieving them. SMART is an acronym and stands for specific, measurable, achievable, yet ambitious, relevant and realistic, and time bound. You thoughtfully consider each step in the process and write down details about each. First you define your specific goal. Then you determine how you will measure your progress. Then you'll describe how it's both achievable and also ambitious. Then you explain how it is relevant in your life and how it is realistic for you to attempt this goal right now. And lastly, you'll set a time goal a deadline. Once you've completed this process, you use other tools and strategies to support yourself as you work towards your goal and executive function coaching colleague of mine here at Beyond BookSmart has used SMART goals to help her clients create routines that make mornings easier. Working through a SMART goal in this situation has multiple benefits. At the most basic level, her clients have a less stressful morning, which is just a much better way to start the day. Filling out each step of the SMART goal helps our clients explore their relationship with time, and they can use it to reflect on the strategies that they're using to make their mornings more efficient. Hannah Choi 18:02Reflecting on what we're working on is critical to making lasting change. And this is my last step in learning how to master your own time management. Reflecting on your efforts helps you learn about what works and what doesn't. figuring all this out helps you fine tune the strategies that you're using. And this reflection process can look different for everyone. If you're more of a data person, the scientific thinker, you might want to track your progress using a habit tracker. You can learn about this in episode three of Focus Forward. You can take notes, or just write down your thoughts about your experience using different tools, you could revisit that BVA and retime yourself to see if things are taking a different amount of time than they used to. Hannah Choi 18:51If being scientific about it feels like too much. And that's okay, because not everyone thinks that way. You can just kind of pay attention to how you feel. Do you feel less tired at the end of the day? Because you're managing your time better? Do you notice that you're crossing off more things on your to do list? Are you arriving at meetings or appointments on time more often than you were before? Do you feel like a better friend or partner because you have more time to spend with your loved ones? There are lots of things you can notice just by paying a little more attention to how things are going for you. And once you've made some observations about your time management, you might want to tweak certain tools or add a new one or maybe even abandon a tool altogether. Or you might find that your system is working great. And then you can take yourself out for some ice cream as a reward. However you do it, do whatever is right for yourself. And that's what reflection is all about - learning about yourself and doing things the way they work for you.Hannah Choi 19:49And that is our show for today. I really hope you found some strategies in this episode that help you improve your time management skills. Even just taking a little step towards improvement will make a big difference. And thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it. As I said before, we would love that, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, and more. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast will let you know when new episodes drop and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

October is ADHD awareness month, and given that half of our clients have ADHD, I knew there was something important we could offer the ADHD community this month with the podcast.From educators to parents, mental health specialists to doctors, too many people in all areas of society may not be fully aware of just how much ADHD can impact an individual’s life in ways both good and bad. So in today’s episode, I’ll be exploring many dimensions of ADHD in hopes of providing the wisdom you need to both overcome the challenges of ADHD, but also harness its hidden superpowers. We’ll dive into the unique qualities of the ADHD brain, how both ADHD medication and other non-medication activities may help, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can change life with ADHD in incredible ways. Best of all, I’ll be sharing clips from conversations I had with three people who have learned to be successful alongside ADHD. Their experiences prove that ADHD can be a blessing instead of a curse - all it takes is the right approach and mindset. A big thank you to Dr. Theresa Cerulli for sharing her expertise on medication’s role in ADHD treatment, and Bob Shea for coloring the episode with his warmth, wit, and story. You can see more of their work in the show notes.Speaking of which... here are the show notes!ADHD FundamentalsADHD Success Kit by Beyond BookSmartFact Sheet: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) TopicsWhat is ADHD? | CDC5 things parents and teachers need to know about ADHD - Harvard HealthADHD Fundamentals: What you need to succeed after a diagnosis, Beyond BookSmart Webinar with Thersa Cerulli, MDSchool Success Kit for Kids With ADHD - Child Mind Institute ADHD BrainsIt's All in Your Brain: The Structure of ADHDDefault Mode Network - an overview | ScienceDirect TopicsNorepinephrine: Dopamine’s Less Glamorous Wonder Twin | Psychology TodayIt's All in Your Brain: the Structure of ADHDADHD & the Brain2-Minute Neuroscience: ADHD - Youtube VideoThe Default Mode Network, Motivation, and AttentionThe ADHD Brain: Neuroscience Behind Attention DeficitADHD ResearchThe World Federation of ADHD International Consensus Statement: 208 Evidence-based conclusions about the disorderADHD and GenderADHD in girls and boys – gender differences in co-existing symptoms and executive function measuresThe Intersection of ADHD and Gender Diversity - Mental Health Therapy, Psychotherapy, Counseling, Coaching, Psychiatry Blog Post By Holly MilesA Review of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder in Women and Girls: Uncovering This Hidden Diagnosis - PMCADHD and Gender Identity: How They're Linked and Tips for ParentsADHD Diagnosis SupportHow to Get an ADHD Diagnosis - Child Mind InstituteSymptoms and Diagnosis of ADHD | CDCADHD Symptom ManagementThe Exercise Prescription for ADHD What Should You Treat First: ADHD or Mental Health Challenges?Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy and ADHD - CHADDCognitive Behavioral Therapy for ADHD: Techniques and OptionsNon-drug treatments for adult ADHD - Harvard HealthShout-outs to our guests!Theresa's PracticeBob Shea's WorkContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:01So what's something positive about having ADHD?Andrew 00:04So many things! Honestly, I feel like personally, my brain has allowed me to experience the world in ways that most other people don't. Because I don't focus on the things that people asked me to focus on. And I focus on the things that I want to focus on and my focus can be drawn to many different things. And so having a brain that's able to fire off that quickly, has been truly a gift.Hannah Choi 00:36Hi, everyone, and welcome to focus forward and executive function podcast, where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, the person you just heard speaking is Andrew, a client of mine who has ADHD. October is ADHD Awareness Month. And this episode is all about that. I'm going to explore a bunch of different aspects of ADHD. And I hope this episode answers any questions you might have about it. Today we will learn about what happens in ADHD brains that makes them function differently. I'll also share some information about ADHD medication and other non medication activities, and how pairing them with tools and strategies that support executive function can really help give people with ADHD some confidence. These days, more and more people are finding answers in receiving an ADHD diagnosis. They're getting explanations for some of the challenges they have faced in their lives. If you've been wondering if you or your child may have ADHD, I'll give you some tips on where to start if you're interested in pursuing testing. Hannah Choi 01:48Throughout the episode, I'll be sharing clips from conversations that I had with three people who have ADHD. Andrew, who you heard in the beginning of the episode is an executive function coaching client of mine. He lives outside of New York City and he's 35 years old. He was diagnosed with ADHD about two years ago. Ally is a coaching client of my colleague Christine Keller. Ally is attending college in Europe, and she was diagnosed when she was 16. I'll also share some clips from my conversation with Bob Shea, who is a children's author who has ADHD. I interviewed him for episode 10 of focus forward. If you haven't listened to that one yet, check it out. He's hilarious and super honest about his life with ADHD. Hannah Choi 02:35Before I show my nerdy side by exploring how the ADHD brain works, let's look at the symptoms of ADHD. ADHD can be broken down into three types, all of which have slightly different and sometimes overlapping symptoms. Okay, so first, we have predominantly hyperactive people with this type of ADHD might fidget and talk a lot, they may have trouble sitting still for long and waiting their turn. They may be impulsive, interrupt others or grab things from people. Interestingly, they may also have more accidents and injuries than those without this type of ADHD. Next up, is inattentive type ADHD. And this often shows up as mainly challenges with the executive function skill of attention. It may be hard for people with this type of ADHD to finish tasks, and they may miss details. It can be difficult for them to follow instructions or keep up with what's happening in a conversation. And they might be easily distracted and lose things or forget the details of their daily routines. You know that term add it's an older and now outdated term for this inattentive type of ADHD. Lastly, is what's called combined ADHD. People with this type have characteristics from both of the other types. Hannah Choi 04:00Okay, Yay, it's brain time. I think it's really, really important to understand the ADHD brain, because ADHD truly does start in the brain. And for many people, just knowing what's going on in their brain can help them feel better about their challenges. ADHD is not the result of laziness is not the result of how you were raised by your parents, or your socio economic level. And many studies have been done to determine what causes ADHD. And for most people, it's likely a combination of mostly genetics and maybe some environmental causes. But there's really no way to determine exactly what caused it for each person. And only correlations can be made from the results of the studies that have been done. So no exact cause has been or probably ever will be determined. You can find out more about this research in the show notes. Hannah Choi 04:58So, now that we know that ADHD is a brain thing, let's find out exactly what's going on in there. People with ADHD have challenges with executive function skills. executive function skills originate in the prefrontal cortex in our brain. And if you've listened to the procrastination episode, you might remember some of this brain science lesson. So the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Dopamine is more well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. And norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going, kind of like adrenaline. But for the brain, the transmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine play a role in causing ADHD symptoms. Norepinephrine is the chemical that gets your brain going. It's kind of like adrenaline, but for the brain, it tells our brain to start paying attention. Dopamine is well known because it's the brain's pleasure chemical. As you may remember, from the procrastination episode, when we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and we get rewarded, dopamine is produced. And then this dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine and less norepinephrine make it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation and attention. And that makes it harder to stay motivated and focused. Hannah Choi 06:36Let's dig a little deeper into the ADHD brain. So we have this network of regions in our brain called the default mode network. And this network is active when we're daydreaming, you know, when you're like not focused on anything. It's also active when we think about ourselves or others. And it's active when we plan for the future or remember the past. And then when it's time to focus on something, we inhibit this default mode network, and then turn on the networks that are used for attention and cognitive control. So studies have shown that it may be that people with ADHD have dysregulation in the default mode network, and just have a more difficult time turning it off when it's time to focus. And what do you know, these networks are all located in or involved the frontal lobe or the prefrontal cortex, which as we know, is where our executive function skills originate from. Hannah Choi 07:37Gender also comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. Three to one, gender comes into play with ADHD symptoms and diagnosis. ADHD can show up differently in cisgender males and females. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of research on how ADHD impacts people who do not identify as their birth gender. And there absolutely needs to be more diversity of gender within the research done in the field of ADHD, well in all research, really, and I think especially mental health and related topics. So today, I will do my best to share what has been learned in the research thus far. And I really encourage you to reach out to your state representatives and ask them for more research to be done for the underresearched population.Hannah Choi 08:31Okay, so for convenience, I'm gonna say boys and girls, but please know that I also mean cisgender men and women, more boys are diagnosed with ADHD than girls. This may be because the symptoms that boys usually have, such as hyperactivity and impulsivity are more external, and they more obviously impact their day to day lives and the people around them. Girls usually have more internal behaviors such as difficulty maintaining attention and remembering things, and they often develop strategies to hide these challenges. Sometimes girls also have anxiety and depression. So ADHD behaviors are missed, and then the child is misdiagnosed. Sometimes girls who are misdiagnosed don't find out until much later in life that ADHD was actually the cause of their childhood challenges. societal expectations can also come into play here as well. How many times have you heard or maybe you even said so yourself that those rowdy boys over there are just boys being boys, hyperactive or impulsive behavior in boys is more accepted, and in general, society expects girls to be more controlled, so they develop coping skills to fit into these expectations. Again, here's another reason why many women are not diagnosed until adulthood. In regards to the impact on executive function skills, studies have found that in general, there are not too many differences between boys and girls with ADHD. executive function skills seem to be similarly influenced by it in both. Hannah Choi 10:19So now that we know the brain science behind ADHD, and the common symptoms that may appear in those with ADHD, and how it can affect girls and boys differently, it's time to take a look at some strategies people can use to manage it. First, I'm going to talk about medication. And then we'll dive into some non medication strategies you can use to level the playing field for your ADHD brain. As I've said before, and I will say again, and again, using medication is a personal choice. And whatever choice people make about medication is okay. As an executive function coach, I work with a lot of people who have ADHD, and I always support my clients' decisions about medication, whatever they are without judgment. We recently held a webinar on what to do after a diagnosis of ADHD. And our guest was Theresa Cerrulli and Teresa is a psychiatrist and an expert in ADHD diagnosis. Theresa helped us understand the ins and outs of ADHD medication. Remember how we talked earlier about how the ADHD brain works differently? Theresa explained that since people with ADHD have underactive frontal lobe circuits, their brains require a higher level of stimulation to function properly. And here's where the role of medication comes in to provide that stimulation. And you might be wondering, why would you want to stimulate a person who already has high energy? And Teresa shares how this works:Theresa Cerulli, MD 11:50I get this question all the time. Why in the world, would you talk about stimulant medications for somebody who's already hyperactive and impulsive? That's kind of counterintuitive. And the reason is, because you're not trying to stimulate the whole person, you want to stimulate that frontal part of the brain that Its job is to help us focus, concentrate, built around, filter out background noises, organize, and plan, your trying to turn it on to do its job most efficiently and effectively.Hannah Choi 12:22Now that we know how ADHD medication works, let's listen to what Teresa has to say about the choice to use medication.Theresa Cerulli, MD 12:29So medications, I will say it should be something to at least discuss with your providers medication isn't for everyone, but should at least be considered for everyone is how I would how I would think about it. And mostly because of the data looking in this was these were NIMH funded studies, not pharmaceutical funded studies years ago, looking at the role of behavioral interventions versus motivate medication intervention interventions versus combined in treating ADHD. And the so the surprise was that medication interventions, compared with behavioral interventions alone, medication invent interventions were more significantly impactful. And then we all made the assumption that the combined medication and behavioral treatment would be even more impactful and which was true, but not to the extent that they had anticipated. So it does look like a main a main part of the treatment intervention should be medication should at least be considered this is neural neuro biologically based. And the sometimes it's hard to make headway in your behavioral strategies. Those strategies become hard to learn, and or utilize if you're also not not working from the inside out and helping with the neurobiological aspects in terms of what's happening in the brain.Hannah Choi 13:55Some people may be okay without medication, and others might rely on it. And like I said, before, whatever your choice is, that's your choice. I really encourage you to do what works best for you and your family. And like Teresa said, at least have the conversation with your doctor about medication before making a decision either way to learn a lot more about ADHD, three to one. To learn a lot more about ADHD medication, including non stimulant medications, you can listen to the full webinar in which Theresa explains the different options that are available. And you can find the link to that in the show notes. When I asked Andrew and Ally about what role medication plays in their lives, they both said that it helps them by allowing them to focus and making it easier to take advantage of the non medication strategies that they use. They both also feel that the medication alone is not the answer.Andrew 14:54I was immediately prescribed Adderall and I was like, I don't want Adderall. I was like give me strategies. I won't come Watching I want like something that I can like learn and apply. I don't want to have to just like take a drug because I knew the problems weren't going to go away just because I was taking Adderall. Right? If anything, Adderall is going to make it worse, because I was just I was going to focus, but I was going to be focusing in the wrong ways. And so the combination of the strategies and the medication have been really powerful. And I think for me, the medication, it's just clarity, I go on Tik Tok every once in a while, and like, there's the ADHD memes, where it's like the five songs playing at one time, right? Like, that's what it feels like. And sometimes that's where I need to be, that's a great place for my head to be, right. But sometimes, I don't, sometimes I just, I need to get stuff done. And it's just nice to know that it's there. I would say, I don't take medication every day. But I've changed my perspective on medication. And I think having having the strategies to fall back on, and then having the medication to fall back on that that kind of double layer of protection, if you will. It's been it's been huge.Ally 16:09I mean, I didn't get on medication until later in the high school game, when I think it could have helped me a bit earlier. So I was in my senior year of high school, when I started taking medication. And it really was a game changer for me, in the sense where I think it was one of the first times in my life, I felt like actual focus. I was like, oh my god, this is the hype like this is what people have been talking about, like sitting down for a few hours and getting work done and feeling like I'm like tunnel vision doing my work right now. And it was a really, I think, a really great feeling to feel that you kind of have control of that. And kind of taking that into your own hands again, and not letting like concentration problems, manifest that for you and being like, okay, I can do a workout with this. But I do I mean, I'm a believer that with most problems that can be treated with medication, it has to be supplemented through a holistic approach. I mean, maybe it's just that my mom is from Latin America. So I think there's different ideas that are on medication. I mean, anywhere outside of the US even living here, I've realized medication is very much like a last resort situation. And I used to be very against that when I was trying to get medication, I was like, just give me it like helped me out. But now I really, really see the benefit of having a holistic approach. Because I don't think I would be able to do many of the things that I do today without the help that I get from beyond booksmart, for example, or other executive function skills that I've developed outside of medication. And also I mean, I think this is a good thing to clarify. But I the medication I take I don't take it I think in normal way people do with ADHD I have short release, and I only take it when I need to. So on days I really need to study or like exams. So it only ends up being like one or two times a week at most. Definitely more concentrated towards like the studying weeks and final exam weeks. But yeah, I just think a supplemental approaches like they have to go hand in hand if not I don't think the total thing will ever be resolved.Hannah Choi 18:29Bob Shea, the children's author that I interviewed for episode 10 shared a similar experience. He explained that before he started taking ADHD medication, he would really miss out on experiences with his family, because he was always trying to play catch up with what he had missed at work all week. So we didn't get to hang out with him on the weekends. He shared with me how the medication made a huge difference for him.Bob Shea 18:53The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners, it's always calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this. And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill and I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do.Hannah Choi 19:31The most important takeaway from all three of these people is that they did not use the medication alone. The medication helps them take advantage of and be better about using the non medication strategies they've learned. And there are an infinite number of strategies out there to support the areas that challenge people with ADHD. So in the interest of time, and my sanity, I'm just going to explore a few of these strategies today. And not all of them that I'm going to talk about are going to be helpful to everyone But if you have ADHD actually, if you're just a person, you might find these helpful. But if you have ADHD, they'll likely be extra helpful. And please have a listen to our previous episodes, especially the one on procrastination and the one on habit tracking for some other ideas. And then in my next episode, I'm going to be coming at you with ideas for improving your time management skills.Hannah Choi 20:25But back to this episode. Before we dive into specific tools and strategies, we need to talk about two really important things that people with ADHD should consider adding to their lives - therapy and exercise. Therapy is definitely something to look into because it can help with anxiety and depression. And it can also reduce ADHD symptoms. Cognitive behavior therapy, which is also called CBT, has especially been shown in studies to be very helpful in reducing symptoms. You can learn more about the benefits of therapy in our show notes. And I encourage you to ask your doctor for support in identifying a therapist who has some experience supporting people with ADHD. Hannah Choi 21:09All right now about that exercise. Ally, Bob and Andrew all shared that exercise, it makes a huge difference for them in managing their ADHD symptoms. It makes sense to me, exercise increases neurotransmitters in the brain, including dopamine and norepinephrine. So in addition to all the other benefits that exercise provides, your brain also gets a nice boost of those chemicals involved with motivation and attention. Studies have shown that exercise improved executive function in kids with ADHD and more research needs to be done on adults with ADHD. But the consensus seems to be that exercise is pretty much the number one thing you can do for yourself. It improves your memory and provides opportunities to add structure to your day, and just gives you something to focus on. And it even gives you a chance to practice some mindfulness. Ally shared with me how running has benefitted her life greatly.Ally 22:08I really like running both as like a place to put in my energy but also a place to kind of practice mindfulness, especially as someone with ADHD like it's a great way to like process emotions and feelings and everything you're taking in throughout the day. I mean, I think it also applies for someone without ADHD as well. I mean, I'm very pro-running.Hannah Choi 22:27Okay, so we now know that medicine, should you choose to use it, therapy and exercise are all super helpful. In addition to these, I think building systems to support planning and time management for people with ADHD is also critical for success and satisfaction in their lives. My colleagues and I see evidence of this in our clients all the time. My Podcast Producer and editor Sean Potts, who joined me in Episode Four to contribute his experience with ADHD as a child shared with me that he relies on Google Calendar and an STM. And the STM is a tool I talked about in our episode on procrastination. And it helps you break down the individual steps or tasks that are involved in a project, or things that you need to do in your day. And then once you've created a list of those steps, or tasks, you figure out how long each one will probably take. And then you map it out on your calendar or your planner, Allie shared a similar love for planning things ahead of time and using her Google Calendar.Ally 23:33Just those tools and those kind of like systems and plays have helped me tremendously just add structure and add clarity to things that can just seem like a lot. Just for example, like organizing, study work just writing down. I mean, before every semester, I will write down like all the assignments I will need to do by week, just so that I know that when it hits like week four, and I don't want to look up what work I have in the syllabus. I already have it there. Or for me like recently, Google calendaring has been a game changer like total game changer. Just having like, kind of a list of like, Okay, at this time I have breakfast at this time, I will go to the gym at this time, I will shower it seems a bit extreme. But I think the big thing is if I get off track, not blaming myself at all, but having it more as a guide and a resource to look back to because getting off track is fine. And it's kind of like a natural thing anyone would do with or without ADHD. But being able to return to a routine is the thing that I think a lot of people struggle with that it's been super helpful.Hannah Choi 24:43Andrew also uses his calendar for part of the system that he's created, which starts with the process of breaking large tasks down into smaller chunks. For him, this is the key to success, so he spends much of his time breaking things down. He then and adds those smaller tasks that he's created to his calendar. And he has found a great side benefit to doing that.Andrew 25:07The amount of energy it saves me in the long run is massive, and the amount of burnout that it saves me from two. And I think that's the other thing. allowing myself to rest, right knowing that when I have something on the calendar and be like, you can work on this tomorrow, you have time to work on this tomorrow. And if you're not here tomorrow, it's not gonna matter. Right. So like, you don't have to finish this today. You have time to work on it tomorrow. And if for whatever reason you can't, then you can't write but. But that has really allowed me to incorporate rest into what I do. Which has also been just hugely powerful.Hannah Choi 25:54Timers are very helpful for people with ADHD. Using a timer can both remind you of the passing of time, and also help you to focus knowing that there's an end coming up when that timer goes off. Bob loves using timers and shared with me how he uses them.Bob Shea 26:11I'll tell you something that timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm diligent about using the timers, that's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today, it's like it's not a bad day, it's the works falls apart a lot easier those timers, because it gives you a little deadline.Hannah Choi 26:32Andrew uses timers to make a dreaded task easier. When he and I first met, he shared with me that there was nothing he hated more than doing the dishes, we work together to figure out a way to make doing them less awful for him. And to he shared this update with me about it. Andrew 26:51I think one of the biggest things for me has been dishes, right? Like that has been, for the longest time, just the hardest thing for me, and I would do it, I would do the dishes. But it was always just like, physically painful for me to do the dishes. But I think like doing a bunch of different things, I think timing myself for a while and realizing that it actually doesn't take that long for me to do the dishes. And then I think setting a timer has also been helpful be like, you know, just do it for five minutes, and then stop if you don't want to keep doing it. And also realizing now that like I do feel better when I do it. So reminding myself of that.Hannah Choi 27:27Whatever strategies you use to create a system that supports you and your executive function challenges, it's important to remember that you own this process, and you can make it work for you. It may be different from other people's systems and you made needs more support in areas that your friends don't, you might have to ask for help more often. And that's okay. I loved what Ally had to say about this.Ally 27:51The biggest thing for me is overall finding what works, but not having shame and it being different than everyone else. Because I think the biggest thing I had to overcome in ADHD help and support was kind of the shame that I it wasn't the same that all my friends were going to do. And it wasn't the natural route I thought it should be. But ultimately, it's what helps me be successful and what helps me feel good about myself. And I don't think there should be any shame in that whatsoever. And I think kind of piecing that together for myself, at one point was super, super beneficial.Hannah Choi 28:34Ally and Andrew have both found invaluable support by working with an executive function coach. We coaches are trained to support people with executive function challenges by meeting them where they are, and helping them build these systems and habits into their day to day lives. And then they allow them to feel more confident in their ability to reach their goals. And having someone there that's on your side and understands your challenges can really help to make lasting change. You can find out more about our coaching on the beyond booksmart website, or you can just do a general search for executive function coaching on the internet. Hannah Choi 29:11Okay, so the last thing I'm going to cover today is the topic of how to get tested. If you think you or your child has ADHD, a good place to start is your child's pediatrician or your own primary physician. Testing can also be done by clinical psychologists, licensed social workers and psychiatrists. You can talk with the school psychologist at your child's school for help to there are more resources in the show notes for how to get the testing process started. It can be scary to put your kiddo or yourself out there, but it can also be the answer to many, many questions. Andrew shared his experience receiving his diagnosis. Andrew 29:51Being diagnosed was the greatest thing that ever happened to me because it allowed me to take action. I talked to a nurse practitioner and then I went and sat for like, it's very long, and you have to answer like 1000s of questions, go back to like, talk about your family history and all of that stuff. But I remember at the end of it, the woman that interviewed me for the diagnosis, she was like, oh, yeah, you, you clearly have ADHD. And she was like, let me kind of walk you through kind of what it is and how it works. And she walked me through, like, the brain structure and like, what happens in your brain and what ADHD is, and that was huge. That was massive. And I think that's what led me to coaching. And that's what, what enabled me to be like, Okay, I know what my problems are. But now I know what the source of the problem is. So I can do something about it. And I think being diagnosed has now allowed me to find some semblance of peace with the challenges that I face.Hannah Choi 30:53And Ally had a similar experience.Ally 30:55I wasn't diagnosed until I was 16, more or less, but I had experienced all the symptoms, I mean, more severely when I was younger, and kind of as it progressed more academically, through my whole life, so when I looked at the symptoms, and I wasn't really educated on ADHD, I genuinely and this is a bit sad, but I genuinely thought I was like, I'm just stupid. Like, I thought I had like some sort of IQ cap on myself. I was like, that's the only logical explanation. And once I got that diagnosis, I think I was able to do my own research and find sort of just validation in the diagnosis so that a lot of things clicked. And it just felt like, Okay, this is not like me being an intelligent in any way, whatever that means. It's just me, going down a different individual path and everyone else. And over time, I learned that there's no shame in that whatsoever, it actually makes you much, I think, well, much more well rounded and decent human.Hannah Choi 32:01Bob shared with me that the diagnosis explained everything for him. He said, This revelation, and the medication changed his life completely. Hannah Choi 32:11Before I go, I wanted to share that all three of my guests see some really positive aspects of their ADHD. Bob feels like his sense of humor is unique because of the unexpected ways his ADHD brain allows him to think. And Ally is really proud of the positive ways that ADHD affects her socially.Ally 32:31On a more positive note, I think it's affected my life with socially, I think I'm a very social person, I think, because I kind of have a lot of things going on in my head, I think I can be witty at times. And I don't know, it makes me feel like happy that I have this ability to kind of think on my feet a lot. And then kind of adding on to that problem solving. I think people with ADHD are inherently more creative. And I think people will learn any learning differences than the norm, are always going to have more creative thoughts and ideas. So I think when presented with a problem, I am proud that I can often think outside of the box a bit and think very much on my feet, which is something I'm proud of, with havingHannah Choi 33:16ADHD. Andrew shared a story about how he feels that ADHD is his superpower.Andrew 33:23I mean, it's my superpower in so many ways. And it's also my kryptonite. But I think understanding how to apply it has been has been key. So like an example of that. We went to the business partner and I went to the bank. And we were trying to open up our business account. And I was bored. We were waiting. And I was just I was sitting and I was just like waiting. And I was looking around and I was this was in New York City. And so I was just watching the people, right? And this guy like was standing outside the bank and like, he had his pants down below his bought no underwear. And I was just like, what the hell I was like, welcome to New York City. But very quickly, he came back. And because I had noticed them before, and I noticed him again. He came back and he started harassing a girl outside the bank. And I just immediately just ran up and, like, stopped the guy and like, chased him off. And but it was like, if I was if I was able to just focus on the bank account, I would have never even known the guy was there. I would have never even known that happened. I would have never seen it. But I feel like because I was bored because I was distracted because I was looking at all the things that were going on. I noticed that and I think like that, to me was a solidifying moment of like, you know what, there might be some sort of evolutionary adaptation purpose to this that we don't really recognize and appreciate in modern society. But like, I mean, think about it. If you're in the bush with somebody with ADHD, and every sound and every, like, you know, smell can trigger them. And they'll be like, what was that? That's probably somebody you want with.Hannah Choi 35:13And that is our show for today, I want to thank Ally, Andrew and Bob for openly sharing their experiences living with ADHD. They were all very happy to do so. And they really hope that their stories will help normalize both neurodivergent learners and show the world that having these conversations about ADHD is really important.Ally 35:34I mean, podcasts like these are so important and just like general work on informing the masses on ADHD, because I think when you believe that, like a neuro normative way of going about life is the only way it really makes you so confused for so many things. And you just feel very separated from the rest of the world when there's genuinely no need for that whatsoever.Hannah Choi 36:02We'll be back with more important conversations about topics that affect us every day, because executive functioning affects every aspect of our lives. I personally feel very, very grateful to be able to be part of enabling these conversations, and sharing useful information so that we can all improve our executive functioning skills and in turn, improve our lives. Thank you for taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying focus forward, please share it with your friends, you can subscribe to our podcast on Apple podcast, Google podcasts, Spotify, and more. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode because there's a ton and I mean a ton of good info in there. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to our podcast newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcasts will let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening!

We’re back! Didya miss me? I missed you all and it's so great to be back with new episodes of the podcast. As this new season of Focus Forward begins, I’m diving right in to tackle the difficult subject of transitions, its impact on personal growth, and what can be done to better cope. To inform this conversation, I invited Rachel Hulstein-Lowe, a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you are listening to this episode months after school has started or you are not even a parent or caregiver of children, don’t worry because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time, by anyone, in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. While the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope. Here are some relevant resources related to our conversationLearn more about Rachel Hulstein-Lowe.Learn more about Lisa Damour.Mindfulness ResourcesGetting started with mindfulnessSmiling Mind AppThe impact of the pandemic on childrenThe Stolen Year by Anya KamenetzEffects of COVID-19 pandemic on mental health of children and adolescents: A systematic review of survey studiesSnapshot of pandemic’s mental health impact on childrenBack to School SupportBack to School AnxietyStudent Stress: Untangling the Anxiety & Executive Function ConnectionExhausted by the School Year (already)? How to Get Back on TrackCan You Help My Anxious Kid?Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingHannah Choi 00:04Hi, everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins, you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi, and we're back. Did you miss me? I miss you. And I am so excited to be back in the podcast Oh sphere. Okay. I think I may have just invented that word. But I'm going with it. We took two months off from dropping new episodes, and boy did it fly by. If you ever catch yourself saying two months is a nice long amount of time. Stop yourself right there. Because that is a lie. Two months is basically two seconds, so you better get going right away. If you want to accomplish anything in that amount of time. Well, I guess first, you could listen to episode 11 In our first season, which was all about procrastination, and how to make it a little easier to get going. But once you're done with that, get off your butt and get going. Would you believe me when I say that that's only the first time you'll hear me say "butt" in this episode? Hannah Choi 01:15As this new season of focus forward begins. I'm diving right in to tackle some tough stuff with Rachel Holstein-Lowe, who is a licensed independent clinical social worker in the Boston area. Rachel and I talked about supporting ourselves and our kids through challenging transitions, especially back to school. If you're listening to this episode, months after school has started or you're not even a parent or a caregiver of children, don't change the channel, because the ideas that Rachel shared can be used at any time by anyone in any transition. We also talked about mindfulness and some easy ways to introduce mindfulness into your life. And we also touched upon both how to talk with our kids and support ourselves when incomprehensibly sad and complicated situations are happening in our country and in the world. And while the topics are heavy, this conversation is full of good ideas and hope.Hannah Choi 02:16Alright. Well. Hi, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:20Oh, thank you, Hannah. It's really nice to be here. I'm really glad we were able to come together.Hannah Choi 02:26Me too. It took us a while we had starts and stops there my family with COVID. And there was summer traveling. But yes, it happened. Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:35Yes, I'm glad we persevered.Hannah Choi 02:38Well, would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 02:41Sure. So I'm Rachel Holstein-Lowe and I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker. I'm based in the Metro West Boston area, and I have a private practice there. I've been in private practice for 12 years here. But I've been a clinician for nearly 20 years. And I work with a lot of kids and teens and their parents around all kinds of issues, executive functioning being one of many. And certainly that's that that cluster of skills is so impacted by kind of what whatever else is going on, in a young person's life that I think honestly, probably any client, I see kid and adult, like we're talking about those things, whether or not we're using that language,Hannah Choi 03:33right? There's something that you said made me just think about, like the why they're called executive function skills, right. They're just skills that help us execute our day. And so it makes sense that they're tied up with everything. And, and like you said, Me, you might not use that language, but learning how our mental health impacts our executive function skills, and vice versa, is such a valuable skill. And I love that more and more conversations are being had around executive function. And more and more people are learning those words and what that means and how important they are. And it's not just, you know, organization and time management, it's the emotions that are involved with how you feel when you are disorganized, or when you can't manage your time, or how you feel when you figure out how to get organized and how to maintain that organization and how to like if you finally figure out a way to not forget to go to appointments or you finally get to your appointments on time. How what a huge impact that has on your how you feel about yourself. Yeah. That that, that I love how that you said that it comes up in their conversations and yet you recognize as a practitioner, that that is what's that is what's being talked about whether you use those wordsRachel Hulstein-Lowe 04:55I think there's a kind of a growing awareness that these aren't things that we Just have right there skills that we have to develop and work at. And similarly, and I think also going what what societally speaking is that we're, we're increasingly aware that there's not that the mind and the body are actually connected. And not right, the mind isn't just being transported by the body. So I feel like that there's a growing awareness and understanding about about that, that allows for us to have a different kind of conversation and a different way of working.Hannah Choi 05:35Yeah, well, yeah. Similarly, I find, I see a look of almost relief, I would say, on my clients, when I explain, or when we talk about how the brain is causing the challenges that that they that they're having. And so I feel like, I see this relief, like, oh, it's not me, it's my brain. And so like learning that connection between the brain and the body, and and why we do what we do, and don't do what we don't do. All comes from the brain. I don't know, for me, it really helps me understand it. And I do see like, oh, okay, so I'm not just like, bad at something. My brain, there's something going on in my brain that makes it more challenging.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 06:27Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. And also, what I see with people when they learn about how the brain works, or how and then more specifically how their own brain might be working, right it how it might be processing information, or being triggered, right? How the stress response gets triggered, like, the more they understand that the more agency, yeah, they feel like they have, like, oh, there's actually something I could do in that moment, that might not take the stressor away, but I could feel a little bit better, I can feel a little calmer, I can feel a little more, you know, capable in that moment. And and that that is really exciting to see how quickly somebody can go from a place of just being like, Oh, this is the way it's going to be to oh, oh, I can actually that actually worked. So like we do a breath technique and like, oh, well, I actually do feel different. Like I can actually send a difference in my, in my brain and in my body. And that allows me to make a different choice. And that's just I think that's, that's really exciting. That's, that's an that's an exciting part of the work right? When you see somebody unlock thatHannah Choi 07:41Yeah, yeah. And so that makes me think about the idea of this practice, right? So they call it like a meditation practice or a mindfulness practice. And so that means that we have to do these things over and over again, to get better at them, right. And so it makes me think of all these strategies that we use to support ourselves in areas where we might struggle, you can't just do it once, right, you can do it once and experience the benefit of that one time. But you need to do it again. And again. And it makes me think of how at the beginning of the, like, beginning of any kind of transition, any kind of change, we might feel like super organized, and we've got our like ducks in a row, like at the beginning of the school year, like Yeah, I don't know, with my my kids, right? They've, they've got their checklists, and they're, you know, and they've got their backpacks already, and they know exactly what they're going to do. And so the first week of school, they've kind of got it together, and they remember to do the things they're going to do. And then already this week, I'm seeing we started last week, and already this week, I'm seeing it starting to fall apart. And, and, and on my end to like my, my, the energy that I have to help them maintain the system that we're trying to build is challenging. So do you how do you support your your clients are just what do you recommend for people to once they start to try to set up that practice? Whatever it is practice of fill in the blank? How do you help people keep that going and not experience what I'm already experiencing? Only in week two?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 09:17Yeah. When we're starting, like when we're kind of entering these big transition moments. I think there can be a lot of hope that kids and parents alike have about the new year and you know, we got to clean the slate and there's all this opportunity. And we're going to you're going to learn so much you're going to grow so much you're going to try new things. And that that can all be true. But there's also you know, plenty of kids and parents who are thinking, oh man, not again. Right, and are really expecting it to be hard because it has been or because they're tough. Tired, right? And just like the idea of having to like get up and go like they did, like they don't write, they don't have it. Don't feel like they have it.Hannah Choi 10:12Or there's or there's other situations in their life other circumstances in their life that exactly literally makes it challenging, like if they work at night or if you're stressed in some other in the financial way, or if they don't feel like they have support.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:26Right. Yeah. Right. So I mean, I think we can, I'm both cases, we want to be looking at kind of setting some, some realistic expectations.Hannah Choi 10:36So what are some questions in interactions that parents can have to support their kids to get to a place of seeing situations in a more kind of realistic way?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 10:49I think sometimes parents, ah, you know, we're often handicapped because we often ask the question, how was your day? And we hear crickets? Guilty? I think there's a lot of reasons for that, and understandable reasons for that. I think so sometimes I think there's there's also like, how we go about it matters a lot. How much we're asking when we're asking what we're expecting to get back. So the timing, waiting until we're in the car, that we're not right, like those and those kinds of tactics, I think of becoming more and more like people kind of get like, oh, yeah, if we're not making direct eye contact, maybe if we're just sitting next to each other in the car or on the couch, it might be an easier interaction.Hannah Choi 11:35Yeah, I've heard, I've heard lots of suggestions about having difficult conversations in the car. Because you as a driver are slightly distracted, you're not going to be able to be like super, super involved in the conversation. You don't have to look at each other. You can pause and pretend that you're concentrating driving when really you're like, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 11:55Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You can clench the wheel if need be? Yeah. The other I think it's, I think it could actually be really useful. In terms of timing, but then I think, also, as parents, you know, I have a unique position with the young people I see. And you know, you do too, and that I'm going to interact with them for at best 45 to 60 minutes a week. Yeah, yeah. And then they're going to, and then they're gonna go, they're gonna plop into my office, or I'm going to meet them virtually. And I'm, I'm gonna get some stuff, and we're gonna have a nice conversation, but they don't really they don't owe me anything beyond that. Nor do I owe them. And that's a, that's a really unique experience, I really try hard to let parents know like they, because of that they are going to share something with me that I think is fundamentally different. But the ways that parents can maybe maximize conversation is to really start to use the therapeutic models in terms of like, really starting from a place of, I want to show you that I get and understand your emotional world. Or at least, maybe I don't know all the details. And I can't pretend that I've lived that experience myself. But I know what it's like to be anxious. I know what it's like to be mad. I know what it's like to be jilted. I know what it's like to worry about a test, like I know those things. So when our kid is showing that emotion, we're joining with that. And we're starting from that place. So rath- So right, so we're really starting with a place of letting our kid know, I get that feeling state.Hannah Choi 13:43This, this reminds me of a conversation that I had earlier in last season of the podcast with Sherry Fleydervish, who is a therapist in the Chicago area, and she was talking about the idea of co-regulation, and how, how just even just share like, as much as you can, as a parent sharing in the emotion with your child can show them like you said, validate their feelings and can help them work through it or just, it shows them it's okay to feel this way. And to just it's okay to just sit in that feeling. And yeah, just being physically near them can help or Yeah, and then one thing that she said that, that really resonated with me is like, I I noticed, like, I don't I don't want to get it wrong when I'm interacting with my kids or my clients. Like I don't want to Well, up until I talked with her, I didn't want to get it wrong. I didn't want to. I wanted to be able to guess their emotion and get it right. And, and then so so I would hesitate to try to to try to help them figure out what they're feeling because, yeah, I didn't want to be wrong. And she said it's okay to be wrong. Yeah, because it can one it can help them. It just shows them that you're trying to connect with them. And to it can actually help them figure out what they are really feeling. Yeah. And because they can, if you guess wrong, then they can say, Oh, well, no, it's not actually that it's and then it gets them to think about Yes. Yeah. So as parents, we might be hesitant to engage with our children about emotion. In case we get it wrong, or in case, they don't want to talk about it, but maybe just showing them that we are open to talking about it, and that we have feelings, too. Must be very validating for kidsRachel Hulstein-Lowe 15:34Absolutely. I think it I think all of us are looking for that sense of being seen and heard. And when we really experienced that, that there's it can't be beat. Right? Regardless, regardless of age, but we are we're so hungry to be seen and heard. And understood. Yeah, we really want it all we really want to be known. We want to be known. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:57You just see people's reactions. Like sometimes you see a silly meme. And, and, and then and oftentimes people's response is "I feel seen". One was like, you know, I use my microwave as my as my coffee storage. And I was just like, Yeah, me too. That's where I keep my tea.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:16Love it. Yes. Yes, exactly.Hannah Choi 16:20Yeah. So no matter what it is, it does feel good to be seen, and how, what a great opportunity to enrich your relationship with your child.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 16:30And I think what often happens if we don't feel validated and known and understood, if our kid doesn't? Then they're gonna keep throwing things out? To try to get you to get it. Yeah. And what that typically looks like, is dysregulation and protest and resistance, right? That's how we experience it. But I think what they're actually trying to communicate is, can you could you please see me see me? See me? Yeah. And once we see them, we what we tend to see more often than not, is that really drops down. And then we can then we can have a conversation about well, what, what happened? And what do you want to do next? Yeah. And is there a way? Is there a way for me as your parent to do to be a part of that? Or is it more that you just needed me to know this is going on?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:25And that's a great question to ask.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 17:26And it sucks, right? I can't do anything. And I'm here for you. I think the our older, right, as our kids get older, our role more and more, really, is to take more of a backseat and allow them to try things and probably not always do it correctly. But to say I got your back here, no matter what. And, you know, you can go out and try those things and come back and tell me about them. And try again, you know, that's, that's, that's what we that's what we hope for. That is not an easy task as a parent. No, that's really, it can be excruciating.Hannah Choi 18:08And also, I feel like, you know, as when our kids are little we can, the things that we do for them are very tangible, right? Like we get we fill their cereal bowl with milk. Yeah, you're hungry. I'll pour the milk for you. You've grown out of your clothes. Here's some new clothes that fit. Yeah. But then as they get older, that connecting with someone emotionally is not like a thing you can hold. It's not, you know, it's not milk you can pour. And so it's a I imagine, I know for myself, but I imagine for the people that transition from helping in a real tangible way to helping in just like a sort of invisible support ways is different. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard to back off like that.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 18:54It is. It is it is I think, particularly as parents, I will say, I've had one client in particular, I think of who I've worked with for a long time. And through a lot of a lot of life. This this this 19 year old has seen a lot. But something she shared with me recently was very early on in her work. It was just excruciatingly painful for her to articulate really what was going on internally. I could see it we could, we could see it, but we didn't know. There weren't words. And she said one of the one of the things that allowed her to keep coming back was that I just sat I literally sat with her. We didn't I didn't force conversations. Sometimes we passed a notebook back and forth to each other. And sometimes those were drawings, those weren't always words. But that went on for a while. But I went you know what it? The message she got was it was okay. I can hold it. And I think that's that that's really that's really the intention here is to say, I can handle it. As a parent, I can handle it. I don't like it. It's really yucky. But I can handle and I think that speaks to what you were talking about with this other therapist talking about that co-regulation piece. Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 20:19And what a nice if you can get if you as a parent can get to a place where you can do that and feel comfortable doing that such a gift for you, your child and your relationship. Yeah. And future relationshipRachel Hulstein-Lowe 20:31Because I think what we forget, sometimes, either as parents or as providers, frankly, is that sometimes the people we're working with or our kids already have the answers, and then they just are so overwhelmed that they can't access them in that moment. But if we provide them space, right to sit with it, yeah. And feel it. And it's okay. And it passes as emotions do, right? They're not temp, they're not permanent. They're temporary, the cloud moves, right, the sun comes out again. And then oh, right, a solution appears. Right? Or maybe no solution, but at least something to try. I think another really cool thing to try is to is doing some imagery or doing some just some imagining around the this event being a success. Right, and like kind of step by step. So really, it can be a little bit painstaking. But really breaking it down until like, I'm going to, I'm going to get dressed, I'm going to walk out the door, I'm going to take these steps into the into the school like really like, at all those moments where there might be a seizing up that that we're imagining, well, what can I do in that moment? What's that going to feel like in my body? And what? Who am I going to need what connection? You know, what can I remember? What can I have with me? What can I hold in my hand, like all kinds of ways of imagining each step of that transition, or that moment being a success?Hannah Choi 22:13Hearing that is very validating for me because I struggle with some anxiety and and when I'm lying in bed the night before a day where I know that I'm going to be doing some things that that I'm anxious about. I will envision my day I make myself like I imagined myself getting up getting ready. You know, doing like I walk myself doing through all of your things. Awesome. Yeah. And yeah, I usually don't even make it to the end of the day, because I fall asleep before I get there. But it has been the, it has been one of the most helpful things that I've done for myself dealing with an upcoming stressor.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 22:56Uh huh. Yeah. So one other thing to be thinking about when we're thinking about these big transition moments, right. So there's, there's all kinds of things to be keeping in mind. But I do want to say kind of the importance of routines. So we know, kids sleep is really crucial. And I'm you know, I don't want to be judge and jury on that. I just want to say like, having a regular bedtime and wake up time, regardless of age is really important in terms of good sleep hygiene, and in terms of maximizing brain capacity, and, and overall health benefits, like the data is undeniable. It's just undeniable. So the more we can support, that kind of routine is, is going to, we're going to see a better regulated and a more ready kid for the day. Yeah, so whatever we can do to support that. Um, and nutrition. I don't you know, I'm not a dietitian. So I'm not getting I'm not going to get into the details of that. But what I will say that falls under that umbrella is there's also very strong data about family dinner. And in our world, and in a lot of family systems, people have a lot of competing schedules and the idea of having family dinner. Are you nuts? I am not in any way saying it needs to happen every night, if it is like gold star. However, having some sacredness having some having some having some way of saying this night is family dinner night and we honor that and we respect That and that doesn't mean that I have to spend an hour making said family dinner, but that we sat down, and maybe we sat down at, we didn't sit down, maybe we ate at the counter because somebody has to go in 20 minutes. But we came together as a family. And we had that slice of pizza together. And I made eye contact with you. And I had an opportunity to say, this happened to me today. Or, huh, hey, I remember now you or something was gonna You were telling me about so and so what ended up happening was so and so. Having a chance to do that. A it reinforces it the family as a team. And we can we need each other. We need each other so so much. It, it reinforces the idea that I got your back. I got your back. I'm here, even though I'm places I am here. So now. Yeah, that routine. If it's not there. I think that could go a long way towards building your kids emotional health.Hannah Choi 26:13Yeah, and I that was something that I heard a lot about, like during the height of the pandemic, when there was a lot of, you know, when we were all stuck at home, that that we ate dinner together. And it was so nice. I heard that from so many people. Yeah. Yeah. And is there anything else you'd like to add about managing transitions and dealing with all the feelings around those?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 26:36I think we've said it, but it bears repeating that I think it's important to normalize that these transitions are stressful. So the more we can actively say, yep, starting school is right. Like there's parts of it that are really hard. Starting something new is usually hard change is usually hard. We as humans don't usually like to go from one thing to a new thing, like there's an adjustment, there's an adjustment to that the more we can normalize it, there's going to be stress for that there's going to be stress for everybody in the family, not just the kid going to, to school,Hannah Choi 27:19you know, the past two years, two and a half years has added a level of stress that maybe now it's not as overt. Right. It's not as in our face now. But the that low level vibration of stress that we are still all feeling whether we are aware of it or not, I imagine makes everything just like a little bit or a lot harder. Yeah. Depending on the person.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 27:48Oh, I think there's so much yet to come out about all of this. Right. I think there was a book released maybe in the last month, right about the negative impacts educationally academically, which is kind of scathing, it's it's, it's, it's a little brutal. And that I'm sure that's the first of many, what what I'm seeing kids across the board, struggle with it that was always there. But I I you know, in terms of the Android, like you're talking about that little little vibration, so for some it's a low level of vibration, and others it's like it was before the pandemic. And now it's a full fledged problem. Our social skills, yes. Right. And that that covers a whole lot of ground. So I can get more specific about that. Very low lowered distress tolerance. I'm going to define that. As you know, Life is stressful. We wake up in the morning, like, if we're going to get out of bed, we're going to experience some stress. Plain and simple. I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Lisa Damour.Hannah Choi 28:59Oh, yes. I actually have one of her books. I haven't read it yet. But uh, yeah, she's,Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 29:03I just think she's great. I've had the good fortune of being in an audience, hearing her talk a couple of times, actually. And she's the one who said, you know, like, if you're going to get out of bed in the morning, you're going to experience stress, like that's just a given. But then the body in the mind's capacity then to like, manage that and kind of get on with it and deal with the day is a measure of your tolerance of that stress. And what I'm seeing, I think profoundly, actually, is it doesn't take much, yeah, to feel pretty overwhelmed. Pretty ready to say, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. That's not happening today. I don't want to talk to this person, you know, in a way that it wasn't. It's different. Yeah,Hannah Choi 29:59I mean, If my sister and I were just talking recently about how, before the pandemic, like me, I'm an extrovert and I love socializing. I love planning parties, and I love planning a chance to go out with friends or to, you know, connect with other people. And I find it difficult now, which is crazy, because it was something that I craved doing before. And I have to force myself to do now. Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's getting better getting much. Yeah. I had a party this weekend!Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 30:28Yeah, that does kind of make you go, wow. Like, yeah, yeah. And you don't know what's happening to you. But then, yeah, yeah. The third thing that it saddens me to say it, but I I, and I don't know, honestly, how much of this is truly actually anxiety, but it gets it manifests as cynicism. But that kind of like writing things off? Um, is there's an awareness of the world that I think is like inevitable. Like, I think it just like I don't think there was any way to avoid that and for for our kids and our teens. But I think what what I'm seeing coming with that is a cynicism. That is that is new. And I find that really sad.Hannah Choi 31:15Yeah. And how does that manifest like, how do you? What do you see that?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:20I guess maybe a better word, maybe a more clinical word to use was, would be more more hopelessness, more more sense of doom, more sense of like, what's the point? More apathy? Yeah, and that it's heartbreaking. Yeah. That is heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah.Hannah Choi 31:40Yeah. And I suppose the repeated exposure to things not working out? Yes. You know, make sense that Yeah. Start to believe that that's true.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 31:49Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we've we've lived through a very challenging health crisis, but we have many, many other you know, you know, the, the meme of the the dumpster on fire. Yeah. You know, that we connect with that. And our kids do, too. And I, how then how does how does a kid brain process that? What did you know? When Where did where did they go from there?Hannah Choi 32:19I have struggled, well not struggled. But for much of my adult life, I would like to become someone who meditates. It's something that I I like I've read a lot about the science, and I understand why it's good for us. And I have experienced the benefits of it the few times that I have gotten myself to meditate, but I cannot. Yet I have not yet yet. I'm trying to use theRachel Hulstein-Lowe 32:39growth mindset, language, open mindset, because I have notHannah Choi 32:43yet built it into a built a practice of it into my life, which I'm sure would help me deal with the fallout of the pandemic. You know, how do you how do you from your perspective, how do you support someone who, you know, is open to trying something does try it and then wants to, you know, feels the benefit of it, and then wants to keep that as a practice that they that they do in their life?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 33:09Well, if we're talking specifically about, like, a mindfulness or meditation practice, something I really encourage my clients to think about and honestly, myself, right, is that mindfulness doesn't have to be sitting in full lotus on a mat. Being quiet. It can be, it can be, but not everybody's going to gonna do that. And that and that's fine. That's, that's, I don't, I don't think that was anybody's intention, right of kind of, like expanding this idea of, of, of mindfulness and meditation practice. So there's a lot of ways to come at it, that might be more palatable, depending on who you are. Um, so one of the ways I really like to introduce it to people who are like, yeah, that's not me. Because I hear that a lot. And that makes sense. It isn't, yeah, that that particular way that isn't that isn't everybody, um, is the idea of taking something that you do habitually, every day, maybe even multiple times a day and do it slightly differently. So an example of that could be brushing your hair, brushing your teeth, getting out of the shower. Okay, these habitual acts, and I say habitual in very intentionally because it has to be something that you are doing really on autopilot. HannahChoi 34:45Yeah, where you don't think you don't think about it.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:48 You just do it, and then it's done. And if anybody asks you, how did you do that? You'd be like, I don't know.Hannah Choi 34:55I don't know. I just did it.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 34:58I just do it. So, how do you change it up? So, here's a silly one. You know, like, if you put makeup on, let's say you put on mascara, you start on the on the opposite. Or you hold the one with the other hand. Yeah. Oh God, oh, or you brush your teeth, you brush your teeth, you probably start on the same side. Every time. Don't be stopped and thought about it, you would have to go to a different place.Hannah Choi 35:31Okay, okay, or like dry your body off in a different order? Yeah. Ah, okay.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 35:37Exactly. Exactly. So it's really simple. It's just so so so simple, basic stuff.Hannah Choi 35:49And there's that and it works because it makes you bring your attention back to the thing that you're doing. Like, you start to wander off. And then you're like, wait, as I'm drying my arm, I'm drying at this point, when normally I'd be at my leg or whatever.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:01Yeah, yeah. Okay. And thanks for saying that. Because mindfulness again is not about like, OmmmmmHannah Choi 36:07yeah, right. Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 36:09Oh, that's the image we had. Right, right - mindfulness. Really, I think the way I think about a mindfulness practice is that I'm present moment focused. And my, I'm bringing as many of my senses into that present moment as possible. So I'm right here right now. I'm not rehashing the conversation I had before logging in with you. Any more than I'm anticipating the session? I have at one o'clock. Yeah, I'm right here. Yeah, so in my body. I'm in this I'm in this moment. Um, and so again, like did that doesn't have to be this. So yeah. So if I have to think about that, where that towel is, then I'm thinking about my hand. I'm feeling the towel. Right? I am. I'm very aware of what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to last a long period of time. And every time like you, you're you're very naturally you're our we have monkey brains like we do. They jump around. That's what they do. That doesn't mean we're doing it wrong. It means every time we catch that we have a monkey brain. Every time we realize, Oh, I'm not thinking about toweling myself off anymore. Right. We were mindful. Like success done. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You just practice mindfulness. Which I, you know, I, I hope that that approach, that that approach for me when I was taught that way, to me, it was like it totally demystified it and made it like, oh, I can do that.Hannah Choi 37:59Right. Right. Yeah. I feel like I'm feeling really, it's funny. This conversation does actually, like, make me feel a little bit a little bit better about my about myself, because I do see it as like a sitting and, and breathing and bringing myself back to my feeling the pressure of my, you know, butt on the floor, whatever. Like they always say, but, but it doesn't have to be that way.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 38:26No, yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, no one is going to argue the value of having a dedicated meditative practice. Yeah, there is. I mean, there is data, it is phenomenal. Actually, it's phenomenal. So I would in no way discourage you from working towards that.Hannah Choi 38:48Yes. Right. And that's my point. I guess that's my point is that I am I am going to use the our idea of of switching things up and seeing that and valuing that as mindfulness to see the benefit to help me get to sit and feel my butt on the floor.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:07Yeah. Yeah. I want to add one other really critical piece. Yeah. And that is non judgment.Hannah Choi 39:16Yes. Yes.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 39:19So I think that one gets missed. Because we, we don't do a meditation perfection. We do a meditation practice, right? These philosophies. These ideas are based, right, like a basic tenant of them is that we're present moment focused non judgmentally. So however, I'm showing up whatever's going on however many times I have to catch myself right. Right in in in a 60 minute is 60 seconds. My mind wanders 60 times. Right? Who cares? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So that's not something that we come to immediately. Right that, that I think, honestly, I think that piece of it is harder. Yeah. Then the redirecting the brain, yeah.Hannah Choi 40:19Right. Right. Especially because we get, you know, throughout our lives, we get so many messages that say, we are being judged. You know, we are told that with grades and at work, and, yeah, it's, so separating yourself from that kind of thinking is challenging is really hard, you what you what you just said about how it's not just the pandemic that we've been dealing with, but a whole lot of other really deeply emotional and traumatic events that have happened, you know, for people at and, you know, related directly to the pandemic, like death and illness and long COVID. And then the really sad stuff that's going on, you know, with racism, and, and school shootings, and just, you know, the stress of the government and climate, you know, that that kind of stuff really impacts us as adults, because we are much more cognizant of what's going on, we really, you know, we're aware of it, we are exposed much more directly to it than our children are. But our children can also be exposed to it in ways that we can't regulate, like, we don't know exactly what they're being exposed to and how they're how they're getting the information, like, we know how we're getting it, but we don't know how they're getting it. Yes. So what are some things that we as parents and also as caregivers, because I'm sure there are people listening that are not parents, but they are there they interact with children? And in some way, how do we approach that those interactions in a developmentally appropriate way, in a way that we are comfortable with, and a way that, you know, both supports them meets their needs and protects them at the same time? Sounds pretty daunting to me, I know, as a parent with my own kids, I, it's yeah, it's hard.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 42:13It is daunting. And what that reminds me of not to go too far off on a tangent, but I do think it's really relevant is, is, you know, we were just talking about this common denominator of living through of living through this pandemic, and how that's been this equalizer in terms of like, it's all something that we can talk about, we've all struggled with it, we've all had our own lives impacted, literally every person, right? So and there's a real opportunity to kind of come together through that in terms of that shared experience. So what that has meant for me as a provider, and where I think this is so relevant than when we're talking about, you know, as a parent, or as an adult, interacting with a kid about these other world events, is having a decent way of like checking in with myself, like, where am I at, with this, and am I regulated. And to be able to have this conversation to be able to kind of step in to this space with this, this person. And at times, having to, you know, being being able to say, while this is really hard for me to talk about, or I haven't quite wrapped my head around where I'm at, with this, I, I'm really sad about this, this really makes me angry, like being able to name what we have as adults, hopefully, as we've got a little more skill in being able to recognize what our own emotional state is, and a little more capacity to be able to verbalize that in an appropriate way. So that's not only like, just like good human behavior, but it's also really good modeling for kids. So I think like, that's got to be our starting place is like, Am I like, Am I okay, enough? If I checked my own ideas about this, have I had an opportunity to process this? And digest it enough that I can, you know, have a conversation about it? Yeah. And if I if I'm not, then do I have time to do that work? Or can I say, Wow, I don't you know, I want to talk about this? This is important and it's really bothering me to like maybe that's like maybe that's enough. I have been really pleasantly surprised but surprised about how much of this content has been coming up for my my kid in particular in high in high school that the vast majority of their knowing is coming from is coming from class. So it's been really like a very personal it's been really used We'll just say, Okay, well tell me about that class discussion, because then I at least I have a, I know where their starting place is. Right. But I think it can be useful to just say that, you know, there might be a lot of other ways of looking at it. Hannah Choi 45:15Mm hmm. Yeah. Teaching some of that perspective-taking andRachel Hulstein-Lowe 45:19yeah, that's some of that perspective taking, um, and sometimes our kids may have already taken a side on it. And it's, you know, it's worth kind of understanding where where they're at, they might just be really, really activated, they might be really scared. And again, like, that goes back to kind of where we started this whole conversation of like, well, let's, let's focus in on that. What's that emotional piece like, and under showing that understanding and Pat and compassion for, you know, whatever the fear is, it's coming up, or the anger that's coming up, the outrage is coming up.Hannah Choi 45:55And that we we have feelings about it too. And we can have different feelings about it, or we can share feelings about Yeah, I think it's such a great opportunity, something that you said, it's made me think that it's conversations around challenging topics, like this is such a great opportunity to teach kids the value of not having black and white thinking, and not even just the value of not doing black and white thinking but how, like how to not think that way. And you reminds me of the conversation that I had with Jackie Wolfman, who is a dialectical behavior therapist. And the whole idea of being able to hold opposite feelings about one thing at the same time. And, and also that extends to relationship with your family, like you might feel differently about something than your child or than your parent, but you can still connect and love each other and right, have a relationship.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 46:59So another kind of another example of that, in my own in my own household, is my daughter getting a lot of information about about political things, and having very strong opinions, and having classmates with very opposing opinions. And that was an opportunity to to have kind of that dialectical. Right conversation about, you can agree and still be respectful. Yeah, you can agree and actually still like this, you can disagree and actually still like this person?Hannah Choi 47:33Yeah. Well, I lived it, because I'm a Red Sox fan. And I married a Yankees fan. So yeah.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:42Well, you're living it every day. Hannah Choi 47:44I am, I am. Before we go, can you share with our listeners where they can find you?Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 47:54Yeah, so I'm physically located in Needham, Massachusetts. So for anyone who's in the in local to me in the metro west Boston area, they can find me at the phone number 617-470-9035. But I also have a lot of digital content and plan on offering more in terms of guaranteeing webinars, anxiety classes and strategies for kiddos. And you can find all that on my website and register for upcoming stuff at www.parentcoach.info. In fact, I've got a in person class for kids called fear busters for kids this Thursday, October 6, and I have a parenting webinar the following day, Friday, October 7. And people literally can log in from anywhere for that. Yeah. So thanks again, Hannah.Hannah Choi 48:54Thank you so much, Rachel. Wonderful conversation. I feel like I could talk to you all day. It's really, really interesting.Rachel Hulstein-Lowe 49:03Wow, it's been really nice.Hannah Choi 49:07And that's our show. For today. We'll be back with more interesting conversations, tips and tricks for improving your executive function skills, and stories of success from people who are working on their own executive function skills. Thank you for being here for our second season and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we cover in each episode of Focus forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and we'll share topics and information related to the topic. You can now find us on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and Spotify so be sure to add us. Thanks for listening

People often think of procrastination as a time management problem, but studies show that it's actually about something much different - avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013, procrastination researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term and let their “future selves” deal with the consequences, somehow believing that their future selves will be able to handle it better. Despite the fact that putting things off may protect us from discomfort temporarily, it’s rarely the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. The potential consequences are endless and it can become a habit that holds us back form reaching our potential. That's why in this week's episode, I'm going to share a few pieces of critical information about procrastination and explore some coach-approved strategies that will hopefully help you combat this common issue. Throughout the episode, I also talk to a number of people in my life about their procrastination habits to help provide first person context to our exploration. I'm sure you'll be able to relate to many of their experiences with procrastination! This is also the last episode in our first season of Focus Forward. We will return on October 5th and bring you more relevant topics, fascinating guests, and useful support for you as you work to develop your Executive Function skills. If I’ve learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast, it is to embrace my fear of failure. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. She says, “discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life”. Hopefully, you can find power in this quote to do the things you want to do - regardless of how scary it might be. Thanks for supporting the show and please feel free to email me at hchoi@beyondbooksmart.com if you have any suggestions for future episodes! Here are some relevant resources related to this episode:Why We ProcrastinateSirois, F. and Pychyl, T. (2013) Procrastination and the Priority of Short-Term Mood Regulation: Consequences for Future SelfWhy People with ADHD Procrastinate - YouTube Video with Tracey MarksInside the mind of a master procrastinator - a TED Talk with Tim UrbanThis is the real reason you procrastinate — and how to break the habit - Read about and find the link to Adam Grant's WorkLife podcast episode on procrastination.Tips and TricksPeg Dawson’s Task Initiation Obstacles WorksheetsFor StudentsFor AdultsSteps, Time, Mapping (STM) Project Planning Worksheet A template to use for inspiration when creating your own STM.Do You Shine Under Pressure? How to Manufacture a Sense of Urgency Tips from ADDitude on how to create fake urgency.The Power of Imperfect Starts James Clear's article on getting started and figuring out what is necessary vs. what is optimal.BooksIt’s About Time: The Six Styles of Procrastination and How to Overcome Them by Dr. Linda SapadinAtomic Habits by James ClearEat that Frog! 21 Great Ways to Stop Procrastinating and Get More Done in Less Time by Brian TracyList of Books by Russell BarkleyContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingMusic credits: Aso - Sunsetsleavv - VoyageAmbient Guitar - WestlakePurpose - Jonny EastonGateKeeper - The Piano SaysInto the Light - Chill Acoustic GuitarAcoustic Folk Instrumental - HydeTranscriptHannah Choi 00:00Do you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:01Sometimes. Hannah Choi 00:02Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:04I think I procrastinate because I just don't want to do it. And I know it's, I think it's gonna be hard. Hannah Choi 00:09And what do you do to get yourself going? Procrastination Consultant 1 00:12I pair it with something that I like doing. Like, I don't like eating spinach. So I always eat or the rice so I can't taste it. Hannah Choi 00:22Hi everyone, and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. And as you just heard, I am tackling the idea of procrastination in today's episode. That cutie patootie I was just talking with is my 10 year old son, and he is one of the procrastination consultants I interviewed for this episode. Throughout it, you'll hear clips of people in my life who procrastinate and if you stick around until the end, you'll hear from the one person of everyone I asked who does not procrastinate ever? I know! I was surprised to. Hannah Choi 01:06I was talking with my sister Julia about writing this episode. And we both agreed that there are definitely opportunities within an episode on procrastination. I make a lot of jokes about putting stuff off. You know, I could joke about procrastinating about writing this episode. Well, turns out it's no joke, I have actually found getting going on writing this episode harder than most anything else I've written. And when I thought about why this was because you know me, I love a little bit of reflection, I realized it's because I really, really want to get it right. And I have to admit that I'm afraid I won't. I mean, you're all gonna be listening to me chatter on about procrastination. And there are just so many aspects to it. And I definitely can't cover them all in one episode. And there are so many other amazing resources out there already created by all these amazing people. So how can I make sure that I'm creating and contributing something new? It's a lot. Oh, by the way, I've included some of these amazing resources in the show notes. So maybe you can procrastinate from doing your work by checking them out after you're done listening to me. Anyway, my point is that I continually put off working on the episode because of a fear of not getting it right, not getting it perfect. And fear doesn't feel good. So it makes sense that I would avoid a situation that might cause that right. People often think of procrastination as a time management problem. But studies show that it actually often comes down to doing what I did, avoiding uncomfortable emotions. In 2013. And academic study done by some procrastination, researchers found that people procrastinate to regulate their emotions in the short term, and then let their future selves deal with the consequences. Somehow believing that these future selves will be able to handle it better. I can for sure relate to this and definitely have said, "That's a problem for Future Hannah". While it's a funny thing to say, and humor eases the decision to procrastinate a little, it's not always the best idea to pass unfinished things on to the future versions of ourselves. And today, I'm going to share some ideas about procrastination and some strategies that you will hopefully find useful. Hannah Choi 03:28But first, let's take a quick look at the brain science behind why we avoid things. Procrastination is essentially a result of challenges with task initiation, which is the executive function skill that helps us start doing the things we need to do to get through our day. There are other EF skills that come into play here as well, such as self regulation, the ability to manage our emotions, and metacognition, which helps us understand why we do what we do or don't do in this case. As you may know, these EF skills are managed by the prefrontal cortex, which is located in the front part of our brains, tap on your forehead. It's right in there. Alright, so that's great. If we've got these prefrontal cortexes that are supposed to be helping us, why is it still so hard to get started? And this is where the helpful but sometimes ill-timed limbic system comes into the picture and starts causing havoc. One of the main things the limbic system is responsible for is helping us react quickly to situations that are dangerous or cause discomfort. And this is a good thing when you have just grabbed a hot cast iron frying pan handle. (I did this the other day!) but not so helpful when you're just trying to get your math homework started. The limbic system says, "Alert alert! Get out of here because this does not feel good". So let's check in with my procrastination consultants on this topic and see what they have to say about it.Procrastination Consultant 2 04:58Um, I procrastinate because As I mean, after I've had a long day at school, I have lots of homework and outside responsibilities from other things I'm a part of, and I just kind of want a break. And so I want to move my brain on to other things and not think about all that stuff because it makes me anxious, stressed out.Procrastination Consultant 3 05:15Often if what I need to do involves calling somebody on the telephone, or talking to somebody, I'm not always comfortable in those situations. So I'll often put off doing that.Procrastination Consultant 4 05:30I think I tend to procrastinate when I'm hungry or tired. Because when I do activities, when I'm hungry or tired, I'm often very hard on myself. So then I don't I don't enjoy the activity. Hannah Choi 05:44Okay, you can hear them say that they avoid things that cause discomfort. This is their limbic system talking. When they finally do get going. It's because their prefrontal cortex is finally stepping in and taking over the situation. The limbic system has been around since birth, and our prefrontal cortex develops last. So it kind of makes sense that our limbic systems get first dibs on our reaction to stuff we need to do. The brain chemical or neurotransmitter dopamine also plays a big part in motivation, and it can explain why we don't want to do things that are boring. It also explains why people with ADHD often have major struggles with task initiation. When we do something pleasurable, dopamine is released and makes us want to do the thing again. So if we put hard work and effort into something, and I'm not saying that this hard work and effort is always pleasurable, but what is pleasurable is that we received praise or good grades or some other reward, and then dopamine is produced. This dopamine makes us want to put the effort in again, because the reward feels good. For people with ADHD, less dopamine makes it to the regions of the brain involved with motivation, so they do not feel that motivating pleasurable feeling as much as people without ADHD. Something else interesting that I learned from reading Russell Barkley, a renowned ADHD expert, who's written a ton of books on the topic is that people with ADHD have a difficult time seeing time other than right now. So why not put off the sucky stuff and do something that gives you a nice boost of dopamine instead? If this is resonating with you, regardless of your ADHD status, you are not alone. My procrastination consultants shared that boredom was often a reason for putting off tasks. Hannah Choi 07:36Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 5 07:37100%? Absolutely. All the time!Hannah Choi 07:40Do you know why? Procrastination Consultant 5 07:43So for me, if it's not fun and creative, it's pretty much gets put on the backburner every single time. I just get bored of it. And I don't want to do it. So I won't do it.Hannah Choi 07:53Do you know why you procrastinate? Procrastination Consultant 6 07:55Because I don't want to do it because it's boring.Procrastination Consultant 7 07:59And generally speaking, the task itself is usually not anything incredibly difficult. But for whatever reason, it's perceived by myself as something that's dreaded. Either it's boring, or I'm not willing to devote the time to sit down and actually started.Procrastination Consultant 8 08:26Like, I always put bills at the top of my list. But do bills always get done. No, they never get done. Hannah Choi 08:33Why not? Procrastination Consultant 8 08:33 I because I procrastinate because I hate it.Hannah Choi 08:36Okay, thanks for sticking with a while, explored the brain a bit. So what can we do about this? How can we battle our brains? How can we overcome that boredom? These brands of ours learn these reactions over years and years from childhood really. So it makes sense that we would react the same over time and find it difficult to change? Is there any way we can ease those uncomfortable emotions and then hack these tasks, so they're not quite so awful, and stop leaving so much undone for those future versions of ourselves. Hannah Choi 09:08So the other day, I counted, and there are about 5 million approaches to help with task initiation. And while I would love to share all of those 5 million ideas with you, I wouldn't have any time left to spend watching my Korean dramas instead of doing the things on my own to do list. And it would also leave you no time to do the things that you like to do instead of what you're supposed to be doing. So I've narrowed my list down from 5 million to five. I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got a strategy or approach that works well for you that I don't mention in this episode, shoot me an email and I'll try to share them in a future episode, which I'm sure I'll procrastinate about, and you'll have to wait until 2024 to listen to it. Hannah Choi 09:52Okay. Anyway, so onto my five strategies to make task initiation a little easier and a little less painful. I'll also explain some of the EF skills that you might use for each strategy. First up, make a plan. Practicing the EF skill of planning and prioritizing is always helpful. And for some, it can really make a difference when it comes to getting started. Something we coaches hear often is that the reason our clients don't start something is because it feels so big, sometimes overwhelmingly huge, and they just don't know where to start. I bet you've probably felt that way about something before I know I should have. I really felt this writing this episode. Anyway, the simple act of breaking tasks down into steps is often the nudge that's needed just to get going. And it can also help you find a good place to start. But how do you do this in an organized and effective way. One of my favorite tools that I share with every client I've ever worked with, is called STM or steps time mapping. And I'd be willing to wager that this tool is a favorite in every EF coaches toolbox. You can find a link to a visual for this tool in the show notes. But for now, I'll just describe it to you. To create an STM you write down all the steps involved in your project. And you can get as granular as you'd like here. And then make some guesses about how much time you'll need for each. And then map it out when and maybe even where you'll do the things. Be sure to build in breaks, and maybe even some buffer time at the end, just in case something comes up and you're not able to work on the thing when you thought you'd be able to because I promise you that will happen. It can help to work backwards from the due date to figure out how much buffer time you can actually give yourself and try to be honest with yourself and realistic about how much you're likely to get done in a day. I always ask myself and my clients is this a reasonable amount of work you're asking yourself to do at this time. Hannah Choi 11:54And this idea leads right into my second tip for making it easier to get going. Using the EF skill of metacognition and checking in with yourself to either see how you're feeling or to figure out what barriers are keeping you from getting started can be really helpful. Take some time to figure out what time of day you're most likely to be successful in completing these tasks. In addition to the question about whether it's a reasonable amount of work, I also like to ask when are you most likely to be successful doing this thing. And it may be that you do your best work at unconventional hours so be open to considering working when most others aren't. You might be like my dear friend Bonnie, who finds two in the morning a prime time for getting work done. A tool that can be used to check in with ourselves before starting to work on something we don't want to work on is the halt strategy. And halt was originally developed to help addicts predict when they might relapse at beyond booksmart. We teach this tool to our clients to help them assess how they're doing before starting something. Okay, so H stands for hungry. A is for angry or anxious. L stands for lonely and T for tired. If you're feeling any of these things, taking care of them before getting started might help. And speaking of a for anxious, feeling anxious about doing nothing can really get in the way of getting started. If you're experiencing a lot of anxiety, it might be helpful to get some support from a therapist. If you're not sure where to start, reach out to your doctor and they can provide some guidance. It can also be helpful to do some reflection and ask why you're procrastinating at this particular moment. What is stopping you? Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and a guest on a previous episode of this podcast has an excellent activity that might help you figure out why you're procrastinating and come up with a plan to get past that stuck feeling. Her tool is linked in the show notes. So please check it out. Hannah Choi 13:58Okay, so next up is to be sure to create a good environment, it's worthwhile to take some time to consider steps that you can take to set yourself up for success. The EF skills of self regulation, flexible thinking and organization come into play here. So you could pair the thing that you don't want to do with something that you do like to do. You could fold that dreaded laundry while watching a show. You might want to consider choosing a show you've seen before or when that you won't get sucked into. You could listen to music or an audio book while you mow the lawn or try out a new podcast on your morning run.Hannah Choi 14:35You can work with a buddy this strategy is called body doubling. Make sure it's someone who won't distract you from your work or give you a hard time if you're struggling to stay focused. A college client of mine has identified two friends of hers with whom she can study and they're motivated to study which helps her get into it. You can make sure you have a special snack that comforts you or one that you can just use as a reward. Maybe every time you finish A paragraph or even just a sentence on that paper you've been struggling with, you get to eat some m&ms. It can also help to take some time to set up a good workspace. Make sure you've got the supplies you need and good lighting. Wearing noise cancelling headphones can help if you're in a noisy area, or you have to share a workspace and maybe try putting up a Do Not Disturb sign. This can let others know that you're trying to get stuff done. For some people changing up your location can help. So maybe try working at the public library or at a friend's house, or even just out on your back deck. Hannah Choi 15:32Okay, next up, start small and stay small! The tool I mentioned before that STM that's a great example of starting small, the first step of using that tool is to break your big task down into small tasks. Time management, planning and prioritizing are the EF skills that come up most of this strategy. If I'm having trouble getting started on something I'm writing like this episode, for example, I always make an outline. And my outline doesn't even start off looking like an actual outline, I just do a messy brain dump. And I type some words that come to me on the page. And actually, you don't even have to type. You can use voice recognition software. If you're working in Google Docs, turn on the Google Voice type in the Tools menu. And you can just dump the contents of your brain right onto the paper without even lifting a finger. You can also use a speech to text app right on your phone. Another great strategy that many Beyond BookSmart coaches share with their clients is the beloved Five-Minute Goals. This is such a great strategy because it both gets you to do the thing, but it also gives you an out. You only have to do the thing for five minutes or even two minutes if five feels like too long. Okay, so you set a timer and do the thing when the timer goes off, I'm willing to bet you that you'll experience what my daughter shared. Procrastination Consultant 4 16:57Well, sometimes I like to say just do it for a minute, because then eventually I'll forget about it and just keep going. Hannah Choi 17:06Okay, if I'm wrong, and you can't relate to what she said, and you find yourself praising the timer gods and being glad that the five minutes is over, maybe it's not a great time for you to do the thing anyway. We know that starting small is essential and so is continuing this approach while you work. Continually breaking things down into small chunks is a great way to help yourself get through the things you don't want to do. Don't expect your effort to be effective for hours without a break. And if you discover a new task within the larger thing that you're doing, be sure to break that down toHannah Choi 17:43Okay, My fifth tip goes back to what I was talking about earlier, how I was struggling to get started on this podcast because I wasn't sure if I could do it the right way. So my advice is to try to be okay with imperfection, which to some of you is gonna sound impossible. I know. I totally get it. This is personally what often gets in the way of me getting started. self regulation and flexible thinking are two of the EF skills that can help one of my favorite books about procrastination. It's about time by Linda Sapadin. In it Dr. Sapadin writes about how perfectionist procrastinators are aiming for you guessed it perfection. And since they know that the risk of failing to reach perfection is extremely high, they may put the thing off entirely to avoid failure, or wait until last minute so they can blame what they see as an imperfect product on something else other than themselves. If this resonates with you, you might try working on striving for excellence instead of perfection. High performing successful athletes are coached for this and it works. So go for really great not perfect. Hannah Choi 18:56Dr. Sapadin suggests changing your language, instead of saying "I should do this thing". Try saying "I could do this thing". This shifts your thinking from seeing the thing that you have to do as a burden to seeing it from a viewpoint of realism and choice. I feel like you could use this change in language as an opportunity to throw in some of the other strategies here too. "I should write this episode on procrastination" becomes "I could write this episode on procrastination sitting on the back deck rewarding myself with five m&ms after I finished a sentence". Excuse me while I go raid my kids' Halloween candy. Hannah Choi 19:36I think a lot of perfectionist procrastinators would likely benefit from some reflection on their relationship with failure. Like I said in the episode on failure, when scientists do experiments to create or test something they don't look for perfection right away. If they did, nothing would ever get invented. Right? One of my favorites, James Clear who is the author of Atomic Habits wrote a great article on his blog about this idea, you can find the link to the article in the show notes. And in it, he encourages us to be honest with ourselves and figure out what is needed versus what is optimal. Yeah, of course, we'd love to be able to dive into something with everything all perfect. So we can have this perfect outcome, but it's just not realistic. And it's also not as interesting, we learn a heck of a lot more about the thing that we're tackling and about ourselves. And we actually allow ourselves to create without fear of imperfection, the results of this are actually just beautifully messy iterations of the thing we're working towards, they're stepping stones towards something we can be happy with. And creating space for these iterations can't happen if we leave things to the last minute, right. Many of my procrastination consultants said they rely on urgency. Procrastination Consultant 2 20:55Most of the time, it's deadlines. And like a sense of urgency that makes me makes me want to do it.Procrastination Consultant 5 21:02Deadlines. Usually, that's what motivates me, I just have no more time left to put it off. And then I have to do it. And I also just like to work under pressure. It just gives me that adrenaline to get it done.Procrastination Consultant 3 21:15What I do to get going, is either come up against a deadline where I have no choice, and I simply have to do it. No excuses.Procrastination Consultant 9 21:25I think it's because I'm motivated by deadlines and I only will start to start a project or something. If I'm moving close that deadline, and I get anxiety inducing effects of that. And that motivates me to then start.Procrastination Consultant 10 21:40I think deadlines approaching faster, like I will absolutely do it. When it's like okay, I can do this, and it's due in 10 minutes, or I need to do this by tomorrow, then I'll finally, that's what forces me honestly, nothing else will get me to do it. Unless the deadline is like, right there. Hannah Choi 21:58I'm guessing that many of you listening are nodding your head saying Yep, that's me. You may like working this way. And if you do, you'll hear no judgement from me. I do encourage you to keep listening though there may be a way to break free from the urgency reliance. Hannah Choi 22:13Okay, let's jump back into our brains for a sec. Remember that limbic system from the beginning of this episode? Well, the amygdala is part of the limbic system, and it's responsible for the flight or fight response you've likely heard of, and probably experienced, well, waiting till the last minute and relying on urgency to get stuff done is stressful, whether we realize it or not. And it causes our brains to be hijacked by the amygdala. And during an amygdala hijack, our bodies release stress hormones, which are not great. So out of concern for your beautiful brains and your healthy bodies, I challenge those of you who use urgency as a motivator to experiment with not relying on urgency with not waiting for that adrenaline to kick in and force you to get the work done. I totally get that this may seem utterly impossible to you. Or you might not even be interested in trying, but at least hear me out. If you feel like you must absolutely rely on urgency, you might try building in fake urgency. Of course, this requires you to basically trick yourself into thinking the thing needs to be done earlier than it truly does, which I admit sounds pretty difficult. But try just try starting something just like a tiny bit earlier than you normally would use some of the strategies I just explored, especially the ones where you work to break the large tasks down into smaller tasks. These mini deadlines can help. And this is also why building in that buffer time I mentioned earlier in the episode is so helpful. With buffer time, we can adjust how small our steps are. Some days you're going to be feeling ultra-productive and others will just be a slog. giving ourselves the space to keep things small can really help on those days. But leaving it to the last minute doesn't allow for that and then we have to push through regardless of how we feel. This strategy is what works well for me. If I leave things to the last minute my anxiety takes over and makes it so I can't even do a task at all. One of my consultants shared that she experiences this too. Procrastination Consultant 10 24:25Packing and stuff? I knew I needed to start packing I didn't procrastinate because I'm like, oh, that's gonna stress me out if I wait too late. I don't know I'd like selective procrastination. Hannah Choi 24:34If you aren't able to break free from urgency and start even just a tiny bit earlier, use your metacognition to notice how you feel and notice the quality of your work. I'm willing to wager a good amount of m&ms that you'll have a better experience feel better about your work and in turn feel better about yourself. Hannah Choi 24:57This is the last episode of our first You send a focus forward, and we will return on October 5, and will bring you more interesting topics, fascinating guests and support for you as you work to develop your executive function skills. If I have learned anything over the course of the last 11 episodes of this podcast it is to embrace my fear of failure. It has taken a lot of work and it will continue to take a lot of work. One of my favorite quotes ever is from psychologist Susan David. And Susan says "Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life". And this podcast has added more meaning to my life than I ever imagined and it was one of the hardest and most uncomfortable things I've ever done. I have to admit that this episode in particular was originally scheduled for much earlier in this podcast season. But in an ironic twist due to scheduling changes, and my own perfectionist procrastination tendencies, it ended up being the perfect topic for the last episode of the season. I know my lesson here is to not go for perfection, but sometimes you end up with it when you just try for excellence.Hannah Choi 26:13I can't even begin to thank you, our listeners enough for all the support you've given me and my podcast team over the past 11 episodes. I want to personally thank Sean Potts, Justice Abbott, Mimi Fernandez and Jackie Hebert for all of their help from the beginning. And special thanks to Annabel Furber, Barbara Garvin-Kester, Denise McMahon, John Frank and Michael Delman for their help on this episode. And a very, very special shout out for my procrastination consultants who also happen to be very special people in my life: Graham, Eliza, Bonnie, Isabelle, Nikolai, Justice, Maura, Julia, Aidan, Lynette, and William. And as always, thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we've covered in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with the special people in your life. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when the first episode of the new season drops and we'll share topics and information related to the episode. Thanks for listening. Oh, and I didn't forget - here's Maura sharing her experience with procrastination, or should I say not procrastinating? Hannah Choi 27:34Do you procrastinate?Procrastination Consultant 11 27:35Never, never. No, no, no, I'm like the kind of person. If I have something to do, I have to do. Why, why I do tomorrow if I can do now or today?

Despite being a common diagnosis, many people with ADHD may go most of their lives without ever officially being diagnosed. Although there are a number of challenges that this presents, one of the most frustrating is that the longer ADHD is left untreated, the more difficult it becomes to change our habits. Even so, that doesn't mean it's impossible - and our guest today proves it!For this week's episode, I invited Bob Shea - a renowned children's author who only recently received an ADHD diagnosis at age 52 - to talk about the trials and triumphs he experienced living with hidden ADHD for so long. Although Bob has some legitimate regrets about not getting diagnosed sooner, he's worked hard to address his challenge areas and make meaningful transformations in his habits. As a result, Bob has seen major improvements in both his personal and professional life that he's excited to share with our listeners. He also reveals the tools, systems, and interventions that helped him along the way. His contributions to the podcast reveal an important lesson - it's never too late to get the support we need to become the best version of ourselves. I know you'll enjoy listening to Bob's advice, wit, and humor just as much as I did during our conversation.Here are some relevant resources related to our conversation:ADHD ResourcesOn-Demand Webinar: ADHD Fundamentals - What you need to succeed after diagnosis: This is the link to a webinar Beyond BookSmart held recently. If you register, you’ll gain instant access to the webinar. 8 Things You Need to Know About ADHD After a Diagnosis: A blog that summarizes key points from the webinar linked above.ADHD Information for Adults: This website includes information on medication and non-medication approaches to managing ADHD.How To ADHD YouTube Channel: An amazing channel that tries to both normalize and help support the trials and tribulations of living with ADHD. Dr. Tracey Marks - Skills Training for ADHD Playlist: A fantastic psychologist and content creator with invaluable insights on living with ADHD. Other Stuff We DiscussedBob's Planning and Time Management Strategy Here's a pic of Bob's notebook so you can see how he lays out his tasks and week.The Sam Harris Meditation App: This is the meditation app that Bob likes to use every morning.Jetpens.com: Bob's favorite place to shop for pens online. The Pomodoro Technique: 25 Minutes to Increase Productivity: This is the time management approach called the Pomodoro Method that Bob uses. We also use it as coaches!Leuchtturm1917 Notebook: This is the notebook I use for my bullet journal.Time Timer Visual Clock: This is the visual timer that I asked Bob about and then he showed me his which he had on the desk next to him.River Fox BuJo: My daughter’s Pinterest account I mentioned in the episodeBob Shea's Instagram and WebsiteContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. When my kids were little, we spent hours at our local library and we'd go home with 50 or so books at a time. We especially loved picture books that made us laugh. And one day we discovered an author called Bob Shea, and Bob's books quickly became some of our favorites. Thanks to the internet, we found out that Bob also lived in our home state of Connecticut. We followed him on Instagram and really enjoyed his drawing tutorials and quirky posts. And Bob started inviting other children's authors and illustrators to have a conversation with him on Instagram Live every Friday. And one day he had author and illustrator Charles Santoso on for a chat. And Bob openly and very candidly shared about his experience having ADHD. He talked about the time management strategies that he uses, and how important they are for him. I knew at that very moment that I just had to invite Bob on to be a guest on the podcast. So today, I've got you a very entertaining and very real conversation about how ADHD impacts his life, how medication really helped and the tools and strategies that he uses to find satisfaction in his life. And I'm really thrilled to share Bob's story with you today. Before we jump in, I want to acknowledge that not everyone with ADHD uses medication. And whatever choice people make about medication is theirs and theirs alone. There are alternative options for those who choose not to use it. And for those who do use it, they likely find that it doesn't work well just on its own. As you'll hear Bob say it works well for him because he combines it with other non medication strategies. If you are interested in learning more, check out the show notes for more reading and resources on this topic. Okay, now on to the show. Okay. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. Do you wanna introduce yourself to our listeners? Bob Shea 02:10Sure. My name is Bob Shea. I'm a children's book author and illustrator. And I found out that I had ADHD when I was 52.Hannah Choi 02:24Did you, did you won...have you had you wondered before in your life?Bob Shea 02:30I not in a serious way. It was probably the six months before I was diagnosed that I really started to think that it was more than just character flaws.Hannah Choi 02:51Did something happen? Was there like a some kind of shift in your thinking or something that got you to start with questioning that?Bob Shea 03:00There were two things I did start following some ADHD accounts on Instagram. That was one thing. So that put it on my radar pretty strong. And what would happen was or what happened I remember specifically, someone did a real that had symptoms of ADHD that I had never known would have been things and it was exactly how my brain works like exactly. And it wasn't the traditional. This is what ADHD is why because my the one of the reasons I one of the reasons I didn't think that I had it was because I know people who you know, in five minutes, you're like, Man, this conversation is 20 different subjects. And my my brothers both have it in and in the three of us it presents differently. So that was difficult. I'm not hyperactive, I don't have any of the traditional things. My my thoughts about ADHD were Bart Simpson, bad student acting up can't sit still. I was I did well in school. I wasn't a troublemaker at all. None of those things. So I was like, I don't have any of that stuff. And then there was a day when I was trying to finish a project I was trying to finish a book that I had do. And I couldn't do it like I couldn't pick up my iPad and open up the file and start... like it was due it was like that safety net of, of a looming deadline did not fail to ignite the fire. And I was scrolling on the Instagram instead. Like, compulsively. I was like I can't stop doing this. I'm look I was like I need some kind of stimulation that and the the I was I'm looking forward to doing the book. Like it was not like Yay, I'm gonna do this book and I'm excited finally gonna get to dig in. I've avoided it and I, I made an appointment for the next day with my, with my doctor with a physician's assistant. I went home and told my wife and she was like, Yeah, that's a really good idea.Hannah Choi 05:23She's like, finally the day has come.Bob Shea 05:24She was like, yeah, she was like, Man, she got the worst of it over the years, I'll tell you. So, yeah, so then I went to the, you know, when I went to this appointment, and I almost cancelled it. I was like, you know, just do your work. I'm sure you're fine. She's gonna let I had gone to her one time for Xanax because I had to go on tour. And I didn't want to talk to people that asked for like, I'm like, Look, I just need, I don't take it normally. Like, she has my records. Like, I'm not a drug seeker. But I was like, I'm traveling, I got to talk to people. I need some Xanax. And she was reluctant to give it to me, and like really gave me a hard time about it. And so I was like, she's not going to do anything for this ADHD, she's gonna laugh at me. She's like, come back when you break an arm. That's what I thought it was gonna be when you have when you're bleeding. Give me a call, like not for this. Boo hoo hoo, you can't get your work done. But she was really, really empathetic. And I had I had in the three months prior stop drinking, because it was a pandemic, and I was getting really heavy. Yeah. I was exercising every day. And I was, I had cut sugar out. And I was meditating a lot. I'm a big meditator. And so I went down the litany of what was happening, and that I had that I had and hadn't been doing these things in the last three months. And she said, everything you just said is what I would have told you to do. I would have said, eat better exercise and meditate. She said, if you're doing that stuff, and then she gave me an assessment, and I was laughing, because it was like, they were watching me during my day. I was like, Yes. Like, that's what I do every time. Yeah, they're like, do you like not? Do you get really close to the end of a project and not finish? I'm like, there's something new to do here. Like, right? I'm like, Yeah, you know, like everybody does that like, no, not everybody. And she put me on Adderall right away. And it was flipped, like flipping a switch. It was great. It's wonderful. I know it doesn't work for everyone. And everyone has their own way of treating it. But for me, my wife was like, thank God.Hannah Choi 07:48That's awesome. Yeah, that's so great. It's so great that you that you didn't let the part of you that wanted to not go that that part didn't get its chance. And you just went anyway and talked with her. Yeah. Well, I mean, I actually know that a lot of people are afraid to find out because they don't want to find out that that, that they have X, Y or Z. And but I'm sure it has been your experience. Once you find out it actually can really open up a lot of doors and opportunities and possibilities and totally different way of thinking about yourself.Bob Shea 08:23Just Yeah, I saw my, the past 50 years of my life and an entirely different light. And I was like, Man, why did anybody put up with that guy? He was the worst. I was, I was so glad I actually was birth because I was like, man, like,my life would have been so much different. Had I known that I could have been fixed. But you know, and then the other thing is like, both of my brothers have it. They don't want to do anything about it. Like they like it. And I'm like, really? I'm like I would I can't get rid of it fast enough. I'm like this is I don't I don't spin this into a positive thing at all. For me personally, I'm like, I have I could get I could have been high. Who knows what my life would be like, if I didn't have it? It's not it's not some secret power that I have.Hannah Choi 09:18Right? Right. But like we were talking before we started recording, don't you feel like it has given you some of the creativity that you've needed to to create the do the stuff that you've done, create the books that you've done andBob Shea 09:34yeah, I'm, I'm hesitant to give that so much credit because, but I'll tell you I think that that's true. I think that it allowed me to say, see to make connections I wouldn't have made otherwise when I was coming up with things and what it did was it gave me a unique voice creatively, my sense of humor is very unique to me, for good or for bad. I'm not saying that it's better or worse than anyone. But I'm saying when I write jokes or make a joke, it's comes out of left field. And it's not, Oh, I see what he's doing when he's doing this. It's very strange, for better or worse, but I'll tell you all the things that it didn't wear me all the things that it did for me, I would trade it to be have had a normal life, because I think it was a million times a detriment than it was, then then whatever it gave me.Hannah Choi 10:39Yeah, that's so interesting. Yeah,Bob Shea 10:41If I was sitting right now in my office up in Hartford, Connecticut, as executive of insurance company, in the HR department being like, you know, we have a lot of events coming up. And we have to do these things in a nice, neat desk. I'd love nothing more.Hannah Choi 11:00Well, I have to say that I'm really glad that you did not discover your ADHD until you were 52. And I think that there are lots and lots of children in the world that are really glad you didn't. And lots of parents.Bob Shea 11:12Well, I appreciate you saying that. But you know,Hannah Choi 11:15So if you look at your life, since you were diagnosed, since you started, like, you know, taking Adderall and just being okay, I have a diagnosis. This is this is why do you see Have you seen the change? Could you compare the like before and after?Bob Shea 11:33It's night and day, I mean, that there's there's work things like like right now, I'm as busy as I've ever been in my career. Right now, for the last two months, and probably going into the next couple of weeks, I have so much to do. And it's fine. Like, it's not, I'll have to work this evening, I'll have to get up early in work. But it's fine. I can. I can see it for what it is. I it's not overwhelming things. I was overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed all the time. And that affected my relationship with my family. Because nobody can talk to me. Because you have so much going on in your head. That is all equally important. That was the thing. Everything you had to do was just as important as the other next thing, which actually wasn't as important. So when my wife would come in the room and go, Hey, what should we have for dinner? I'd be like, how can you come in here and add another thing to this pile that's in my head, right? And now I'm just I'm so much more pleasant to be around. I was irritable all the time. I was I thought I thought it was over. I thought I thought I was going to I thought we were going to split up because it may like we didn't talk about it. But in my head. I was like head in my head. I was like, I don't know what's wrong with me. But I can't be around people.Hannah Choi 13:04Do you think that it was it's mostly that medicine that has changed things for you?Bob Shea 13:11Yes, you know, yeah, because, but that but there's I have to explain that a little bit. I do think that that's the case because I wanted to change. I didn't want to be like that. I knew that I was I knew that I was a jerk. And I knew that I was impatient, and that I couldn't she on the weekends. She'd be honest. She's like, you know, when you're home on the weekend, all you want to do is be at work. I know that you're I know that you're not happy. I couldn't, I couldn't relax. I couldn't go just do something. And it was because I thought I had failed the previous week, getting things done. And so I was trying to always try to catch up. I was always trying to catch up. The medication allowed me to make use of the systems I had been trying to put in place because it was always planners. So always had calendars, planners. How do I do this? How do I do this? And once I took the medication, I was able to do all the things. And everything fell into place. It's all it's all a bit. It's not just oh, it took a pill. I was fun. It was it was a framework of things. And knowing that you're even now I'm like, You're bad at this. So you have to do this more than other people do. Because you're so bad at it. Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 14:32So what's what kind of systems and strategies do work for you?Bob Shea 14:36It's sort of a it's sort of a mix of a lot of different systems that I had found. But But basically, it's capturing all the information in your head. So I I just did it this morning because it's Monday. I usually do it on Sundays. I write down everything I have to do that week like and it's all in a big pile. So it can be work on this illustration. And the next thing could be make an appointment for a haircut. Like it's not there's no over here you put work and over here you put it it's it's a, it's a messy list on the page next to that I put big blocks because I have to see things and I can't do this on the computer, I have to write it down with my hands, or else. It all looks the same on the computer. It's just like typed words. It could be anything. Yep. And now, because a draw, we're like writing a list, you can draw a little picture of something. Oh, yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So then I, so then I do the days of the week next to that, just horizontal bars of Monday through Friday. And then I drop in roughly, where what I'm going to do on what day really rough like not like you at three o'clock are going to do this. Yes. Then when the day comes...this all sounds so complicated. And it's not. Then on the day I draw a box for every half hour of the day, I make a list, I make a list, I'm going to I'm like, I'm going to work on this. And I'm going to work on this and I make a box for every half hour of the day and I write in the box, what I'm going to work on at what time and it's it is very flexible. If I don't, I'm okay with that. But I have to just know that I have a plan. I will not make this punitive because I will be mad at it. So it's to help me it is not to punish me ever. And one of the things that I did it first, or one of the things that helped the time while blindness was so bad because I'd be like I have a book to I'll take me two days, I don't know, that's fine. You know what I mean? Like, I had no concept. So what, so what I do is I write what I plan to do in that in those blocks time. Then when they pass, I go, and I don't do it immediately. Like at the end of the day, I'll say, Boy, I thought that thing was going to take me an hour and a half took me three hours. That's awesome. So I'm training myself to know what things really take like, oh, going to the post office, that's probably negative 20 minutes. Like, really, you gotta get an envelope, gotta find the right size envelope, you got to pick up the address the person gave you you got to seal it, you got to walk down, there's probably going to be aligned, you know, you're gonna get a coffee after because you did an errand and you need a treat. And then you know, by the time you get back, like how long did that trip to the post office, it takes an hour. And then you have to be like, alright, you have to go to the post office today that costs an hour. Like and then you know, because then you're like, then you're not, you overestimate what you can get done. And then at the end of the day, you feel terrible. You're like, you beat yourself up and you're like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, Yeah, you know?Hannah Choi 17:48Yeah, time blindness is a really big. It can, it can really impact so many aspects of your life like, like actually just running out of time. But then also the your opinion that you have it yourself. Yeah, if you constantly are not estimating the time correctly, then you're just gonna feel like you can't get anything done.Bob Shea 18:12Yeah, yeah. And as a result as a result of doing that. And the medication I don't take on as much. Yeah, ever. Because now when I see so if I'm sitting here, and I go online, or whatever, and I go, Hey, look at little felted animals, looks fun. I could get some felt. And I'm gonna make little, like penguins and foxes. It'll be adorable. I'm a children's book author. I should be doing this whimsical stuff all day. And then you go and you look that stuff up. And you buy felts and you got felting needles and stuff. And then you're like, how am I going to do this? And then the reality hits.Hannah Choi 18:55It's just so funny because my other my other job is I, I teach fiber arts classes with a friend of mine and that's like exactly what we do!Bob Shea 19:07Right? But it looks really fun. I have the needles here. I in my closet, I have the needles. But now I see that and I go Yeah, that'd be fun if you have time because and the only reason I say this because I'm like, Well, what are you going to do the other 20 things I taught myself that. Agreeing to do something means you're saying you're not going to do something else. Right? And I'm talking to the guitar in my corner. Okay?Hannah Choi 19:37Just this morning, I was talking to a client and he, he is an adult who was also recently diagnosed with ADHD. And he was talking about how, like for work he's doing really great like staying on to on on track and not taking on too much. You know, and checking like, Is this realistic? Like if my you know, am I is it realistic to take on another client or whatever. And then and then we were talking about how you also have to kind of do that in your, you know, in the in the fun things. Like you, you, you might want to make the felted animals and play the guitar and you know, be really good at all these things. But if you would you ask you have to ask yourself the same thing you ask yourself with your work, like, is it realistic to take on all of these things? If you if you take on too much, you can't do it all and then you just beat yourself up?Bob Shea 20:29Yeah, that's the thing. I could enjoy none of the things. Yeah. And all it was was another source of tension with my wife, because it's like, my half done projects were all over the place. And she was like, can you just throw this out? Now just bring it to Goodwill, or give it to somebody throw it away? And she was right. But I mean, I was like, I was like, I'm gonna make that it's gonna be great. And that's the other thing too with ADHD, you can't be bad at things. Like if I played guitar, I was like, I'm gonna be really good at it. So I didn't say that with guitar, but with most most things. I'm like, I don't want to just, I don't want to do this half measure. I want to be good at it. It's like, Well, yeah. And again, with the paying attention to how long things take. I'm like, I can't do anything else.Hannah Choi 21:15Yeah, right.Bob Shea 21:16I'm full! Like even with work, I'm like, when are you gonna do all these amazing?Hannah Choi 21:21There's only so many hours in a day. Yeah. And you have to sleep and you have to eat and you have to have some downtime.Bob Shea 21:27Yeah, I belong to a Makerspace in New Haven. And it's good and it's bad, because it's great because I can go there for the day. And I'm like, I'm just doing this and I enjoy it. And I I said to my... I stopped putting up requirements on myself. I'm like, when I go in, you're gonna fail at all the things and not walk out with a wooden, whatever you were making. You're going to walk out with your materials all ruin that you paid for. And just and but I'm like, That's the day that's fine. And the other thing, the other other reason it's bad is because they keep getting new stuff, which Oh, wow, you guys gotta chill. So I could do pottery? Oh, my gosh, I'm looking at slip casting. And what do I need? What do I need to buy for this? Man, I'm like that. So now I'm like, ignore that, don't learn how to use the tablesawHannah Choi 22:23You're getting a lot of practice of saying no.Bob Shea 22:25I am! I'm just ignoring stuff. I'm like, I let me tell you, I hate Pre-Adderall Guy so much, that I'm saying no out of spite. I'm like, you don't deserve to make pottery. Help bring another thing into the house. You. I see you back there. You know, because it's still I'm still the same thing. Like my brain still is seeking those that stimulation to like, it's still dopamine, when I'm like, a new thing to learn. There's a lot of dopamine in that goldmine of dopamine. So passing that up as Adderall makes you say, you've got enough to get by. You don't need to go look for other places, even social media. I'm on social media so much less. I used to be on Twitter all the time.Hannah Choi 23:17So going back to the strategies that you use, how did you develop those? How'd you come up with those?Bob Shea 23:22Even before the Adderall, I was obsessed with time management. Always, always, always, always, unsuccessfully. I remember in the 90s, A long time ago, I went and did a Franklin Planner thing. And I think I kept a Franklin Planner for a while, like for a year, probably about a year and then I had to refill it. And I'm like, fellas, I'm gonna have to do that anymore. But I always remember the sort of the principles and stuff. And I remember now thinking back, like it's not ADHD friendly. Like they're very, it's very, like, it's for people who already have their act together. And it's just a way to clean up their act.Hannah Choi 24:08Those linear thinkersBob Shea 24:09It's so I always thought it's always like, something wrong with me. I thought I always thought it was like a character failing that I had, I was like, Well, you know, I was like, You know what, I always hated sports. When I was growing up, I probably just don't have discipline. And that's a now that's why they always wanted you to do that, so that you could do a boring task that you didn't want to do. And then, so I had an even I was even going back to the makerspace I was designing all these electronics, things that were all about how to remind me to do things. Every one thing, I had a thing where I'm still making this one, and that's not me lying, it's my first project. I was gonna have more successful authors than may record a message to me like, "Hey, how's that book coming you were telling me about?" Yeah, and then randomly during the day, it would announce that whatever I was doing was like, Oh, I was looking at felted animals. Back to work, yeah. I had I have it all sketched out, like, how it works. And the components I need, but everything I did everything I was like, seriously, I was like, I'm going to film, because I didn't know how the day worked. I'm going to film this was an idea of flowers, drying and decaying and falling off the thing. And then I'm going to play it fast during the day over eight hours, so that when I looked up, I go, Oh, the things are starting to fall. That means I have this much time. I was trying to, I was trying to find ways to look at time visually that I'd understand and not like just a clock, which I'm like, that's just the number I don't know. Because you come in in the beginning of the day, and you're like, I have all day. You know, and you're like, well, and then you're like, Well, I'm gonna go get a cup of coffee. I'm gonna go take a walk. And then I'm like, Jesus running out real quick.Hannah Choi 26:06Yeah, like half a day now. Have you heard of the Time timers were like shows a red...like, It's like, it looks like a clock. And yeah. That right there. Do you use it?Bob Shea 26:19Sorry about that noise. That's part of my thing with with the, with the blocks that I draw out the half hour blocks, 25 minutes, because it's the Pomodoro Technique, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Are you if that is the I'll tell you something. The timers are the key to everything. If if I use the timers, the days I'm I'm, I'm diligent about using the timers. That's a good day. If I'm just like, oh, just freestyle it today. It's like it's not a bad day, it still works falls apart a lot easier. Those timers, because it gives you a little deadline. Yep. And you look at that thing. And you're right, like the visual thing for me was huge. And so for that deadline, I go, I tell myself, you can't look at your phone, because you're working. And so then that way I go, Well, there's only 15 minutes, I can not look at my phone for 15 minutes. But if I don't have the time, or it's every three minutes up, pick it up. Yeah, I'm better about it now, but that's how it works. I also blocked Instagram on everything but my laptop so that when I sit down, it's intentional. Like I'm gonna go on Instagram now. Look at messages I do. scroll a little bit. It's boring on your laptop. You're not on the sofa looking at TV and doing it. So I'm out faster. I'm in and out faster. And and then on my devices for work. Like my iPad. No. No social media. Still the news? I still look at the news all the time. But no social media. Yeah. Pinterest is great. I like Pinterest. Yes.Hannah Choi 27:57It is great. My daughter is like slowly racking up a whole bunch of followers. She does bullet journaling. Yeah, she does. She does bullet journal. She has this bullet journal. She's 13 years old. And she's really starting everyday. She's like, Oh, I have like 20 more followers. She's up to 350! Yeah, it's so cool. But she like shares like her that art the art that she did it for the week and how she laid it out. AndBob Shea 28:24Does she get this she get... she's been to like JetPens, right? And she gets all this stuff fromHannah Choi 28:29I don't know what JetPens is. But she's got all the pens. Bob Shea 28:32Sorry, I told you because oh, there's a whole other world of pens you don't know aboutHannah Choi 28:38JetPens, okay, I gotta write that down. Bob Shea 28:39So good. I love I love that stuff. And like pencil cases and like pencil sharpeners that look like pandas. Hannah Choi 28:48And you guys could talk for hours. She's totally into it. Bob Shea 28:52So So I give her a lot of credit, because I couldn't keep up with a bullet journal. My thing is like black ink and then read for like, what I really did, because I'm like, I had to pare it down to a simpler.Hannah Choi 29:04Yeah. Well, I keep a bullet journal too. But mine is also like, super. It's just like, there's nothing fancyBob Shea 29:11Yeah, that's what mine looks like. Yeah. And you have the same you have that kind to Yeah. Yeah, my wife made minus 10 or something.Hannah Choi 29:20Yeah, yeah. IBob Shea 29:20don't know how you say it. I use those a lot for other things. But I don't but I use a different I just use a grid. Very simple one because I go through so many of them.Hannah Choi 29:30Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So keeping systems like that requires some practice. It requires quite a bit of perseverance and quite a bit of, you know, discipline. What motivates you to stick with it?Bob Shea 29:49This I think what, what motivates me to stick with it is that, like I said before, it's not punitive. It's not it's not it's here to help me not make me feel bad. So as I use it things that don't work for me, it was a little more not complicated. There were more, there was more to it when I first started doing it, anything that didn't sort of serve me I got rid of. So now it's like, it's a way to collect my thoughts. It's not a way to to be a taskmaster that you have to do these things. At the end of the day, a lot of times, I'll have gotten made a lot of progress on things, but maybe not even the things I thought I was going to do. And then I'm like, that's still a good day, I made a lot of progress. And I'm proud of what I did. Like, I'm glad that I moved the needle on this project. The other project can wait a day, because I have long deadlines. You know, like, I don't usually I think, like when I was doing graphic design, like maybe I didn't notice it much because it was like That thing's due in two days, like and it would be like in the next week, something else would be due now. It's like months at a time. That's bad for people like me.Hannah Choi 31:01Long term planning is like a whole different set of skills thatBob Shea 31:04I'm still working on that that is like, time makes no sense to me. Three months, like, that's never gonna happen. It's never gonna be here.Hannah Choi 31:14Have you ever watched inside the mind of a master procrastinator with Tim Urban? He, it's a TED Talk that...Bob Shea 31:22Yes, I think so! He has he does his thesis in the last day. That was hilarious. Yeah. So good. Before I knew I had ADHD. Yeah, it's hilarious!Hannah Choi 31:35it's a great, that's such a great example of exactly what you just.Bob Shea 31:41Yeah, yeah. It's like, and it's, I'm not. I so I just turned in a book. A couple of, I'm in the revision process of it now. And I was proud of myself. Because it was only two weeks late, instead of three months, like yeah, I was real- And I'm sure they are, but it was a new art director and I don't think that they were as proud of me as I am.Hannah Choi 32:05You're like, you don't know what this means.Bob Shea 32:08Like, I'm like, checking outside to see if the UPS guys bring in like, you know, a Harry and David box gift basket. Two weeks late, two weeks late, not three months. Like, oh, look, guess who's almost like a normal person?Hannah Choi 32:26That's so great.Bob Shea 32:27I have friends who are like, Yeah, this isn't due till September. So I finished it early, so I could get out some other things. I'm like, What are you talking about? I've never, ever done that. Ever. That's the thing. I had a friend who told me he did that. And then I was telling him about the ADHD. And he's like, maybe I have ADHD. I said, let's take a step back. Yeah. Remember how you told me? You just finished something up? That's not due for three months? No, no, no, no. I'm not a medical professional, but no.Hannah Choi 33:01So funny. What do you think would happen if you turned something in on time?Bob Shea 33:06I might have no, I don't know. I have no idea what that's like, I think that I'm gonna tell you though, I see the I see the benefit of doing that. This sounds so dumb. This sounds like such a, Are you new to being in the world? Like, if I so working alone and making up my own projects and things it's like, it's it's so much more helpful to me to have a system and try to get in on time. Because that frees up time for other things. Not felted animals, other projects that could maybe make money, right? Like there's, I mean, it's a balance with the kids books, because I can't, I can't have people be like, Man, he's cranking these things out once again. You right, you know what I mean? Like, Hannah Choi 33:57Can't be too productive! Bob Shea 33:58Good, right, like, have a side hustle. I can drive for Uber in those two weeks. That's what I could have been doing.Hannah Choi 34:08No, no, Bob. Bob Shea 34:10I don't think that's not a good idea. Hannah Choi 34:11You obviously did something different to get your three week overdue and a three month overdueness down to two week, two weeks overdue. What do you do different?Bob Shea 34:20That was that that's the last piece that I'm working on now. What is the long term plan? I can't I don't understand how time works. I don't get that. You know, I don't get that. Laters not does not a thing. Laters Not a thing. And it's not better than now. Like the way I behave now? Yeah, I'm gonna behave like that tomorrow. Like, I'm like, I can be like, Oh, tomorrow when I wake up, I'm gonna be all put together. You know what I mean? So now this machine that I've made that can kind of not a very fast moving thing. It's it's constantly pressing forward, which is good and not speedy. But so it's only recently that I've acknowledged that the future is going to happen, whether I like it or not. So I start to use. So now I am using a calendar. On my computer, which I don't like to do, I should actually get a physical one. And I'm writing in dates things are due so that I can see them approach. Yeah, that's good. I know that I have something due on August 1. And I'm already obsessed about it not obsessed. But I'm already like, if you don't get started on July 1, you're never going to get that done. I know that that's and I'm like, I can't. Last minute panic. It gets old after 50 years. Yeah.Hannah Choi 35:47Takes the wear and tear on your body. Yeah. What if instead of... what if you put the deadline- So you have the deadline that it's due on August 1? What if on the calendar on July 1, you wrote, like, start the thing?Bob Shea 36:04Yeah, that's, that's what I should do. And I did. I did that. The one that was two weeks late, I put in every day like you are supposed to be working on this thing. I am the worst employee. I just, I That stuff's easy. If I'm like, if it's due in 30 days, I'm like, Well, I can go to MakeHaven today. You know what I mean? Because it's 30, I still got 29 days - work a little harder.Hannah Choi 36:36And I suppose thinking, well, if I just do it all now and I get it done five days before the due date, then I could spend five full days in a row at MakeHaven.Bob Shea 36:46that sounds like a wonderful world that I do. You know, I'll tell you, I have that conversation with myself in a very convincing manner. executing that plan, to a degree where all the steps are taken care of in a in a timely way. And let me tell you something, too. It's not me. It's not me blowing it off. It's, it takes longer than I guess. So even with this thing, even. And then things happen that you don't anticipate. You know, that's the other thingHannah Choi 37:19Yeah. And the unpredictable variables of life,Bob Shea 37:22That and that's even going back to the boxes, and it applies to the month to going back to the boxes. If you write down what really happens. You can look back and go, oh, there's all these things that I didn't know in the morning were going to happen that I had to deal with. And so you don't feel bad. At the end of the day. You're like, well, it wasn't my fault. I wasn't I wasn't like googling what movie was Nicolas Cage in in the 90s was the thing and they switched faces. You know what I mean? You're like, you don't you don't stop to do that. As long as I'm like working and not like, just looking at, you know, woodworking videos. What I like to do - keep that to my personal time.Hannah Choi 38:05Yeah, having some flexibility, like, like, flexibility both in what we do during the day and also like recognizing that, that we cannot be rigid all the time. We cannot. As much as we want to stick to whatever we have planned for that day, it just doesn't. Yeah, definitely gonna happen.Bob Shea 38:25Yeah, it's, it's, it's about being honest with yourself about how you work, and then saying, Look, you work this way. Here's what'll work with that without you beating yourself up because I because I couldn't figure it out. Because I was like, I did all this stuff in my career to get to the point where I'm have autonomy. I can work by myself. I come up with my own projects. Great, great, great. And I'm like, and then you ruin it because you're on stupid Twitter. Why would you do that? You have you? Here's everything that you wanted. And you undermine yourself. It's awful. It wasHannah Choi 39:10How much do you think that had to do with fear? The fear that you weren't going to be do it do it right or fear that it was going to be uncomfortable while you were doing whatever it was.Bob Shea 39:22That's a big part of it because I would - the books - I can't look at books that I did already. From the past. Somebody's using an angle grinder outside. So I can't look at Yeah, so good. It's like, I hope I hope they're making a playground. Something good.Hannah Choi 39:45I never found out what my neighbors were doing.Bob Shea 39:48Right. Hold on. Let me look real quick. Oh, soft serve ice cream. It's gonna be good. Yeah,Hannah Choi 39:55Wait! That's another distraction. Now, I think they're building a brand location of the makerspaceBob Shea 40:02Oh, that's good. Right there. Right? They are. It's they're putting in a table saw. More noise, Great. Yeah, you know, you get so excited for these projects. And in your head, it's perfect. It's the best thing you've ever done. And then you can then you put it down on paper, and there it is going through the filter of your abilities.Hannah Choi 40:25And your own self criticism, I'm sureBob Shea 40:27I can't I was saying before, before they were making the ice cream stand outside, but I can't look at my old books. I can't open them up. People are like, Oh, what was that thing? And I'm like, I'm not going I'm not opening that again. All you see is the things you did wrong. And and in my case, all I see is Yeah, you did that at the last minute, didn't you? Yeah, you're a champ. You're a prince. Look at that, aren't you Like, aren't you professional?Hannah Choi 40:53I'm so curious. I want I kind of want to follow up with you in a couple of years and see, like, if you, like see how your thought processes about your own work have changed? Yeah, I'd be interesting to see that.Bob Shea 41:07I think that I think that I'm managing expectations about that. And as long as I can be comfortable with myself, I'm fine. Like I said, like the overwhelm went away. So I'm not always like, yeah, I sort of can just accept things the way they are and be like, yeah, that's okay. And I'll tell you, that is so huge. Like, it's so huge.Hannah Choi 41:35Yeah. So I'm, I'm doing an episode on procrastination. So would you say you are a procrastinator?Bob Shea 41:46Yep. Yeah, more. So before the Adderall for sure. Yeah, yeah, I still do it. And now when I do it, I can stop if I want to. But also, if I'm doing it, and I know that I'm doing it, I'm like, give yourself a break. You're okay. It's not that big a deal. Because what the other thing is about understanding how you work. So I write this grid during the day, the last couple of hours, like probably from from four to four to six. You're not getting anything done. Like you're not, you get it you get an ice cube of creativity every day, you get like, here's this, you can you have this for like an hour and a half, and then you're not gonna get anything good. Stop. So I know from four to six, I'm like, Alright, clean up your office, which is still a mess from ADHD, I'm still working on that. Clean your office reply to emails, low cognitive load things. Yeah. Because that's the time when I'll be like, looking at Instagram or something. Because I'm, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out of stuff, you know.Hannah Choi 42:53So something that I try to work a lot with my clients on is is exactly that, like noticing, diminishing returns, noticing when your effort is not, is not being effective anymore. And so that's so great that you, you know that about yourself, and you know, what the things that you can do, instead of just messing around, like, you know, you can still do some things, which is going to make you feel better about yourself by the end of the day, like, oh, like, like all these other things that I did? Yeah, I may not have like, written more or drawn more, but I did make my space more usable,Bob Shea 43:30Which is another goal. Like it's one of the things so it's like, yeah, I can I can move piles around for the next hour from one spot to the next. Just which is another thing I can't I bet it. I can't see. I'm clutter-blind as well. Anyway, but uh, but yeah, that's, that's the thing is to just be easy. Go easy on yourself. And if you if you know that you're diligently trying don't like I'm like, yeah, they know. It's all working out. Okay, it's all from everything's for my benefit. So I don't mind it so much.Hannah Choi 44:04Yeah, that's great. And being able to do that self reflection is so important. And, and, and recognizing, like, what your strengths are and what's challenging, and how you can use both of those. Bob Shea 44:17Yeah, a lot of that, too. I mentioned before I'm a big meditator meditation has allowed me to understand my thoughts as they're happening, and to recognize thought patterns and be like, alright, I see what it is you're doing now. And you take your level you're a little distanced from you don't become your thoughts. You're able to like observe them and go, alright, you you don't want to do this. Why not? Yeah. And then think about what else can I do instead? And that lets me shift and then that way I'm not hooked on the well you back off other thought because I'm getting some dopamine from this Instagram and then I'm gonna ride this for a while.Hannah Choi 45:05So how do you? How did you get into meditation? And how do you keep yourself? How do you? How do you keep up with the practice?Bob Shea 45:13I, you know, my, my mother in the 70s was into back when it was a super popular thing. She was into Tm. It's a transcendental meditation because it was like on the Merv Griffin Show. You know,Hannah Choi 45:26I remember people talking about that when I was little.Bob Shea 45:28Yeah, you know, I was like, That guy was on TV all the time. It was super like it was a pop culture thing. And then she would do it, she went to some meditation thing, tried to get us boys to do it, we laughed, and we're like, I'm not doing this. We tried once. You can't make people meditate, you cannot make them do it. But I always remembered that she did you know. And so I think when I was like, in my 20s, I started doing it again, late, my late 20s, I did it. And I did it in a different way. I didn't do TM, but I would just do it with the real. And again, I had to do the ADHD, I'm like, You need to build this muscle of focus. And so I did it that way for a while. And it was fine. It was fine. It was good. I didn't really know what I was getting out of it. And then I started to use the Sam Harris app a couple of years ago. And that's really the thing where he walks you through why you're doing it and how to do it and all this stuff. And that and he's like, he comes at it from a point of view of not like it's a spiritual thing. It's other goes my my cuckoo clock to did let me know that an hour has passed in my head. So I have an understanding of time. I've 10 clocks all around the thing. I'm obsessed with clocks now. It's a good one. Yeah, and I'll let the bird keep talking for a second. There it goes. And that the keeping up on the practice is, all of these things work in tandem, I have to, I can tell when I'm eating poorly, if I'm not exercising, if I'm not doing meditation. Life's worse. Like even with the medication life's worse. So if I try to try to ride my bike in every day, I usually when I you know, and this is more of a habit forming than anything else. Usually what I'll do is when I get in right away, I'll sit and meditate. When I walk in the door, put my stuff down, sit on the cushion. There's on the app, it's a meditation everyday 20 minutes do it and it's over. Like when I wake up when I wake up. I try to write for a while. Then I'll exercise that I might go for a run. I'm in, meditate, set, it all sounds wonderful. It sounds like you have this wonderful thing. It's all it's all tension. It's all motivated by fear. So that's the foundation is fear. So but it all helps me stay focused a little bit.Hannah Choi 47:54Yeah, right. It's a fear of not feeling good, right? I feel a fear of failing, you know, those strategies are to help you be successful.Bob Shea 48:02I can feel better. I feel better. If I get sleep. I have to get enough sleep. And then I just I feel so much better. I'm so much more able to deal with things.Hannah Choi 48:13Yeah, I I really feel that with exercise. Like for me, I really need to exercise if I don't exercise then I tend to really beat myself up a lot. And when I exercise I'm much gentler myself. And I actually just ran a half marathon yesterday I ran the Fairfield half marathon. Yeah. It wasn't my first half marathon but was my first time during the Fairfield one. It was really fun. Two more questions for you. They're not long. What are you excited about?Bob Shea 48:43What am I excited about? Me personally? In the world? Because nothingHannah Choi 48:52Okay, personally? Yeah, I know the world is awful, right? PersonallyBob Shea 48:59I'm excited about my son's graduating high school, he's gonna go to college in the fall. I'm pretty excited about that. I'm, I'm doing I'm - because I do one thing at a time now. I'm doing some I have some good projects at the makerspace that I'm excited about. I'm excited, just even about running and riding my bike. I'm so excited that it's nice outside. It's all very simple things that I do. And I write down gratitude stuff at the end of the day. And it's always the same thing. It's always like my wife, something delicious, and out and my bicycle.Hannah Choi 49:35I have been keeping a gratitude journal for - I'm in my fifth year now. It has, I have to say like I think that has made one of the biggest impacts on my life. Bob Shea 49:39For real? Hannah Choi 49:39Oh, yeah. It's amazing Bob Shea 49:42Do you do it in the evening or in the morning to start your day and set your intention kind of thing.Hannah Choi 49:54Yeah, that's a great question. I do it in the evening and I also sometimes end up doing it in the morning for the previous day, because I forgot to do it. But what I have found, it has helped me so much with negative thinking. And, and I find myself throughout the day going, Oh, that's something I can write about. I automatically think that way now. And it also at the end of if I have like a particularly hard day, it forces me to look back on it in and look for the even if I can be grateful for the challenge of that hard day. I made it through or, or whatever, like my kids made me happy or, you know, something.Bob Shea 50:43This day is over. I'm grateful. Yeah.Hannah Choi 50:47During the pandemic, I often just wrote, "I'm just glad this day is over". Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's been a huge thing for me. So I'm glad you're doing it too. Yeah.Bob Shea 50:58That's good. I'll start to - I'm not mindful of things during the day. To to jot down that's a great idea. That's good. That brings it into the whole day.Hannah Choi 51:08Yeah, yeah, it's been really nice. And it's cool too, because the one that I use as a line a day journal, so it's actually got five years on each day. So I can look back on that, that day from the previous and so I'm in my fifth year now. So I can look back on on all of them before and it's really interesting to see that I do tend to be thankful for a lot of the same stuff. And so that makes me feel really good. Like, Oh, those are those are things that I should be doing. Like I do kickboxing, and I'm very often thankful for kickboxing. And, sadly, the place where we do it at is closing. But umBob Shea 51:43Oh, really? Hannah Choi 51:44Yeah. It's a real bummer. But it's it is it's really nice to look back on that. And just, it's like evidence. I just I love looking for evidence. And there's a lot of evidence in that book.Bob Shea 51:56Yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 51:59All right, one more question. How do people find you even though you're not too much on social media?Bob Shea 52:05On social media, on Instagram, I'm Bob Shea books. And then I do have Bobshea.com. That's my books website. But those are really the two main places the main thing is is Instagram, @BobsheabooksHannah Choi 52:22and on your local children's library bookshelves.Bob Shea 52:25Oh, yeah, exactly. Wherever, from your local independent bookseller. Yeah, just go in and go in and demand my books. And if they don't carry them there, they usually have a display in the center of the store, like new releases or whatever. If they don't have it, just flip that over. Flip it over, run out.Hannah Choi 52:45Well, that's that's how we found you, my kids. When my kids were little, we can't remember how we maybe they had one of your books up on like the, like the top, they put like one of the books up on the top?Bob Shea 52:56And oh, okay. Yeah, good I hope so.Hannah Choi 52:58So every time we found out you had a new book, we are super excited. So thank you for being a part of my children's childhood.Bob Shea 53:04Oh, sure. Thank you.Hannah Choi 53:08All right. Well, thanks again, Bob. This is great. It's really interesting to hear different people's perspectives. And and I'm so glad that you found strategies that are working for you. And I wish you luck on figuring out long term strategy planning, I think that I was thinking about it, like, just the fact that you're very good at doing your daily stuff is probably why you ended up with only being two weeks late and not three months, like, Yeah, I think that daily practice, probably just made you more aware of time and just made you more productive at, you know, the only thing I was, I was wondering, do you work backwards? Like, do you ever do start at the finish? And then figure out like, Okay, well, I know that they want it, like this amount of time ahead of time. And then and then okay, that means it takes me usually takes me about five days to do whatever and then schedule that there. And then it's like, all of that, all of that time blindness that you're conquering, can be so useful, right? Because, you know, you know how long things take now. So then it makes it easier when you're working backwards to budget in time. So yes, yeah, I think take now,Bob Shea 54:25I would I, I know I should. I should do it that way. In fact, I used to use Gantt charts, you know, again, you know those things. So again, a Gantt chart. I, this is my pre ADHD like, I was so obsessed with them. Like I gotta come up with a way that I can do this. Basically, it's a timeline, and then you hang like a string that moves along with for every day. But on that chart, you have the different things that you're different tasks that have to get done, so you can see where you are and whatever tasks and then So But what ends up happening is you just keep moving the task, like the Gantt chart is, so that is a quick visual, like, if you have five things going on where you are and all those five things.Hannah Choi 55:10Yeah, that's cool.Bob Shea 55:12Yeah, no, yeah.Hannah Choi 55:14I recommend looking at how long things take you and trying to, trying to figure out and adding in buffer time and adding in time for all those variables that we can't predict.Bob Shea 55:28I do. I try to add 50% more than my guess. And I'm getting better at it, but not still can't do like I'm never spot on.Hannah Choi 55:40Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear?Bob Shea 55:43I did. I did. That's where I got the sit down and meditate as soon as you come in.Hannah Choi 55:47Yeah. Habits stacking. Yeah, I was meant to. I meant to mention that earlier when you were talking about that. But I like his idea of just 1% better. It obviously adds up over time, like you have you have proof. You have proof that a little bit better does add up over time.Bob Shea 56:05Yeah. And then the other the other thing I do in the book with the boxes, the next day, I look at how I did the day before. And I go Yeah, you know, you kind of were messing around too much at this time. And you know, you went for that walk was longer than you thought. So then that day, I can be like, Yeah, that's what I say. I'm like, I'm going to be a little bit better today than I was yesterday.Hannah Choi 56:27Yeah, that's so great. Oh, you're like a dream client. Oh my gosh.Bob Shea 56:31I'm too introspective. Hannah Choi 56:34Nah. No such thing. Well, thanks so much, Bob. This has been great.Bob Shea 56:39Thank you. That was fun.Hannah Choi 56:43And that's our show for today. I really hope that you had a chuckle and learn something useful from Bob. Or maybe you could just really relate to his story. More and more adults are being diagnosed with ADHD, so this feels like a really relatable and important story to share. Check out the show notes for a link to see some of Bob's time management strategies. And thank you for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share it with your friends, and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyondbooksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

In today’s episode, we’re looking at another set of helpful skills - especially for teens and young adults - and those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive function skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation, plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing, and responding to our emotions. I think this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn and also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our…well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age will have a hugely positive impact on our lives.To learn more about emotional regulation and what coping skills might be particularly useful to teens and young adults, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area, to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know, it’s a mouthful and also something you may not have heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym but had no idea what it was, so I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie. DBT is related to CBT which you may have heard of before. If you haven’t, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. In this type of therapy, you learn to recognize negative or unhelpful thought patterns and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I’ll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills.Here are some helpful resources from our conversation:DBT® Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets, Second Edition, by Marsha LinehanAnd Then They Stopped Talking to Me: Making Sense of Middle School by Judith WarnerVillage Psychology - Jackie Wolfman’s practiceWhat Is Dialectical Behavior Therapy for Adolescents - The YouTube video I watched to learn more about DBT before I talked with JackieContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. In the last episode, I spoke with Nadine Briggs about the connection between social skills and EF skills. We talked about different strategies and tools that kids and parents can use to develop these skills. In today's episode, we're looking at another set of skills that are helpful for kids, especially teens and young adults. And those are coping skills. The transition to college or work from high school has its own special set of challenges and practicing some coping skills can really help feel more successful during this time. The executive functions skill of emotional regulation, which is also called self-regulation plays a really big part in coping with challenging situations. Emotional regulation is all about recognizing, managing and then appropriately responding to our emotions. I think that this is one of the most challenging EF skills for us to learn. And it's also one of the most important because it directly affects all areas of our lives. From the moment we wake up until we fall asleep, emotions influence our...well, everything! And learning to develop our emotional regulation from a young age can have a hugely positive impact on our lives. To learn more about emotional regulation, and what coping skills might be particularly useful, I invited Jackie Wolfman, a therapist in the Boston area to join me for a conversation about this. Jackie teaches these coping skills to her clients through DBT, which stands for dialectical behavior therapy. I know it's a mouthful, and might also be something that you have not heard of before. I myself had only seen the acronym, but I had no idea what it was. So I had to do a little research before my conversation with Jackie, you can check out the show notes for the stuff that I found. DBT is related to CBT, which you may have heard of before. And if you haven't, CBT stands for cognitive behavior therapy. And in this type of therapy, you learn to recognize certain negative or unhelpful thought patterns, and then challenge them and change them through certain actions, such as facing your fears, and increasing your awareness of your behaviors. I'll let Jackie explain more about DBT and how emotional regulation strategies used in this type of therapy are so effective for teaching teens and young adults these coping skills. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Jackie, thanks for joining me today. And there's your dog! (dog barking in background)Jackie Wolfman 02:57Right on cue! Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to be here to talk with you.Hannah Choi 03:03Yeah. Do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners a little bit?Jackie Wolfman 03:07Sure. So my name is Jackie Wolfman. I'm a clinical psychologist. And I've really focused my career on helping both college students and young adults in their early adulthood who might be struggling with anxiety, trauma, impulsivity, relationship difficulties, a whole host of things. And so, more recently, I founded a mental health private practice called Village Psychology that's dedicated to providing evidence based therapy groups, workshops and other programs to help college students and young adults really find relief from suffering and, you know, hopefully begin to create lives that they're truly excited about and really love. So, I spent 10 years in New York training and doing my education there. And then I moved to Boston about 10 years ago now, to do a postdoc in dialectical behavior therapy at McLean Hospital and Harvard Medical School. So that's where I got really the bulk of my DBT training, which I can talk about later. I'm certified, I'm a certified DBT clinician by the DBT Linehan Board of Certification. And I have a background in the arts. So I really like to think of myself as someone who tries to combine, you know, creativity and innovation and, you know, a strong grounding in science and evidence based practice to develop these programs, you know, to work with young people. Hannah Choi 04:42Oh, that's wonderful. I love that. Can you explain to our listeners what DBT is?Jackie Wolfman 04:45Absolutely. So DBT stands for dialectical behavior therapy. It is a form of CBT cognitive behavioral therapy that includes a focus on individual therapy, on-call skills coaching, and also skills training groups, so groups where people are learning to develop coping skills in different areas. Hannah Choi 05:12So dialectical, that's not a word that you hear every day. Can you tell me a little bit about what it means and why it might be important? Jackie Wolfman 05:19Sure. So it's definitely important, it's the name of the therapy. And a dialectic really refers to this idea that we can have two things that seem like opposites, and they can both be true at the same time. So some different examples could be I am tough, and I am gentle. Or I like school and I don't like school. Right? And so, dialectics is important for a lot of reasons. One is that it really helps us get away from all or nothing thinking. So all or nothing thinking is either, you know, something like, I got an A on this test, or I'm a total failure, right? That would be all or nothing, or either you're my best friend, or you're my enemy. Right. And so when we get stuck in these all or nothing types of thought patterns, dialectics dialectics can help us find balance and move out of that. So maybe instead of, you know, either I get an A, or I'm a failure, it's something like, you know, that test was really hard for me, and I'm going to study in a different way next time, or I'm disappointed with how that went. And I can ask for help to see what I can do differently, right. So helping us find that middle ground, so that we're not stuck in these all or nothing types of ways of seeing ourselves or other people or even the world.Hannah Choi 06:51Something that has just been trending for me lately is this idea of identity and who we are. And so I imagine dialectical thinking is helpful in, in figuring out who our identity is, and how I imagine, like, you can say, like, like I did poorly on that test, and I'm still a good student, or whatever.Jackie Wolfman 07:15Absolutely, yeah, It really can inform how you talk to yourself about yourself, right? And then how you view yourself, and what different things mean to you that I can see this as a, you know, I did poorly on the test, or I didn't study as much as I could have is a problem that can be solved, right, that can be addressed. And you can also hold in your mind, like you're saying this idea that I'm still a good student, right. And I'm still smart. And I'm still curious and passionate about what I care about. So it's not just one or the other.Hannah Choi 07:48Who's a good candidate for DBT? Jackie Wolfman 07:50Yeah, so people come to DBT, to work on a range of difficulties, it was initially developed to work with people who are really at high risk of hurting themselves and having difficulties in a number of different areas. And since it's been expanded to apply to many different types of problems. But I would say a common factor in terms of people who come to DBT treatment and really benefit from it, or is some sort of difficulty with regulating their emotions. So that might look like anxiety, depression, it could be rapid mood changes, it could be feeling num or empty, impulsive behaviors, or really any combination of those.Hannah Choi 08:34Would you say there's, like I hadn't, I hadn't really heard of it. I mean, I'd seen the acronym. And I know about CBT. But I hadn't really didn't, I had to do a little research to learn about it myself, you find that people are, is there? Is there more awareness about it now? And also, is there a stigma about it if it used to be used for people who are at risk of hurting themselves, but now it could be for anybody really?Jackie Wolfman 09:03Yeah, I think there is increasing awareness about dialectical behavior therapy, and certainly has, you know, been considered really the gold standard for people who do have high risk behaviors, whether that's, you know, suicidal thoughts or self harm or other types of risky behaviors. And so sometimes people do have that question - "Is this really for me?" because I don't fit into that category. And so I think it just requires more education to tell people yes, it might be, you know, let's look at what the what the therapy offers and what you're looking for help with. And, you know, see if this if this makes sense, because, like you said, I mean, these are skills that I think pretty much we all could use. I mean, I use them all the time and continue to practice them. So it's not necessarily for everyone, but it really can benefit a wide range of people I think. Hannah Choi 09:58Yeah. So if you are if you are listening and you don't feel like you fall into the category of that, there are still lots of, what I'm getting is there are still a lot of coping skills and strategies that you might learn in DBT that can help. So it sounds like DBT is from the research that the reading that I did about it, and I watched a YouTube video, which was really helpful as well. Yeah. It sounds like it's very holistic, like it, it includes the families, the person who's the person who is at the highest risk the and their families. And then I love how the skills groups are involved. And then also, the skills practice and how, how available, you as the therapist are to the person who's in therapy, so that they can make sure that they are completely supported when they're trying to learn these new coping skills. Jackie Wolfman 10:56Yeah, so the, I think your you know, part of what you're talking about is what we call skills coaching, where your individual, usually your individual therapist, sometimes it could be the group therapist, but your therapist is available to you in between sessions for short, coaching calls. And this is because it's really one thing to learn the skills in the group. And that's terrific, but it's a whole nother thing to be able to apply them in the moment that you need it. And so sometimes that's during a therapy session, but most of our lives, were not in our therapy sessions, that might be for one hour a week at most, potentially. And so that's what the skills coaching is for that you can contact your therapist, you can say, "This is the problem I'm having, these are the emotions I'm feeling. This is my goal. This is what I've already tried." Usually, your therapist prompts you to answer these questions, of course, and what what else can I do, you know, help me figure out how to use these skills now when I really need it. And I just find that that really goes such a long way in terms of people's ability to use it and start to use them eventually more independently. So they don't necessarily need to call their therapist, but at first, it really makes just a world of difference and being able to apply the skills in the time that that you really need it.Hannah Choi 12:09So I imagine developing a really strong trust between your client and your therapy, the client and the therapist is really important, so that they feel comfortable reaching out because they I mean, I imagine they might feel like they're interrupting you.Jackie Wolfman 12:23Absolutely. So some people will say that, you know, oh, you know, isn't it hard to be on-call because people are calling you all the time. And actually, what I find is exactly what you're saying that actually people don't want to interrupt my life. They don't want to bother me, they don't know if it's worth it or you know, things like that. And so really, I have to help people encourage them to, to reach out. And you're absolutely right, the relationship between the therapist and the client is the most important thing in terms of really any therapy being successful, I think, because that's the foundation upon which you can do all the other work. Hannah Choi 12:56Yeah, I mean, we find the same thing with with executive function skills coaching. And we also do the same thing - we check in with our clients during the week. And I always encourage my clients to reach out like if you're struggling and you are like not sure what to do in a situation where you're trying to, I don't know, plan for the week or something, reach out! But you're right, people don't do it very often. So hopefully, anyone's listening, I hope they reach out to their therapist or reach out to their coaches now.Jackie Wolfman 13:22That's one of the skills to learn in practice really, is to be able to ask for help. Hannah Choi 13:28Yeah, I mean, even Yeah, that's definitely something that I've been working on and, and doing this podcast has actually been part of that, you know, like, have, I've had to ask for a lot of help. I've had to ask people to explain things that I don't understand. And it's, it's a scary thing to put yourself out there. But you can learn so much and grow so much. Jackie Wolfman 13:49Oh, absolutely. Hannah Choi 13:50That's great. So you said you work, um you do group? Like group? What do you call them group? Is it group therapy or group sessions?Jackie Wolfman 14:03You know, I do call it group therapy, because it is group therapy. But I also explained to people that a DBT group is in a lot of ways a little a little bit more like a class than other types of group therapy. So we there's different types of group therapy. And that can be benefit beneficial in different ways, you know, for different people at different times. But these groups that would the DBT skills, training groups, it really does, in some ways feel a little bit more like a class because there is a workbook, there's a curriculum on teaching a different skill each week, there's homework practice. So it's not an open ended discussion group, although there are many opportunities to connect and share with other group members. But it's much more structured.Hannah Choi 14:45And so do you. You offer these groups for young adults, right?Jackie Wolfman 14:53Yes, so I never know what to call, you know what young adult means? Because to some people that's too In other words, it's older so. So I have I have groups that are specifically for college students, which tend to be traditional college age, maybe 18 to 22. Ish. And then I also have separate groups, which I do call the young adult groups, but those are ages typically 22 to 30. Ish. I have both.Hannah Choi 15:18Yeah. Oh, that's great. And so what if? And I imagine there's also DBT, for kids who are in high school?Jackie Wolfman 15:26Yeah, absolutely. And I've done that as well. Yeah.Hannah Choi 15:30So speaking of kids who are in high school, I have a client right now who is graduating, and he's going to be going to college in the fall. And so it makes me think about what kids can do to kind of get ready for, for being a grown up. And, and and the differences that they're going to encounter when they get to school, and they're going to be away from their regular environment. Do you, do you ever work with kids prior to college?Jackie Wolfman 16:01I do. And in fact, I'm working on developing a more specific program for sort of like the pre-college prep, but from the mental health and wellness perspective, and to help people kind of identify what are the skills that they need to learn in practice before starting college.Hannah Choi 16:25Yeah, so what are they? What should people work on?Jackie Wolfman 16:30Yeah. So there's four main categories of skills that we cover in DBT. And I think those map on really well to some of the skills that are needed for college. So the core skill is mindfulness. And one of my favorite quotes about mindfulness is that it sounds simple. And it is, but it's not easy. So when I'm talking about mindfulness, I'm really talking about two things, your ability to focus your mind where you want it to go. Instead of, you know, feeling like you have no control over that. And also increasing awareness, both of what's going on around you, but really, also what's happening internally, your own thoughts and your own feelings. And so a mindfulness practice can be again, super simple, like for the next 30 to 60 seconds, notice whatever sounds you notice, it's a very simple practice. And if we start to do that, usually what we notice is it's not easy, it's really hard, right? I start thinking about when I'm going to have for lunch or a conversation I had yesterday, or all the things on my to do list, right to just kind of bring myself to the moment and focus on those sounds. It takes a lot of practice. And so I think it has a lot of applications for everyone, but in particular for college students, because they have so much going on, to be able to focus where you need to focus is a real challenge. And being able to identify what you're feeling in the moment has so many benefits for being able to figure out what else you need. Hannah Choi 18:02Yeah, and what's so interesting, like, if you look at sort of the brain science behind mindfulness and awareness of how we are feeling is the executive function skill of metacognition, and like, how can you like, can you figure out what you're feeling? And can you figure out like, why you do what you do and why you don't do what you do? And so that seems, and it's also the last executive function skill to develop, and the trajectory of the development of that. And so that's interesting, because that's about the time when people start to get better at that. So that's good timing. If you think about it from like, a brain science side of it.Jackie Wolfman 18:42Yeah. And I think it's something we can continue to develop our whole lives.Hannah Choi 18:46Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, especially with how busy and pulled and how, in many directions people are being able to. Yeah, recognize how you're feeling and, and like you said, the attention piece of it is, so this can be so challenging when there's so much going on. Great. So what's the next the next core skill?Jackie Wolfman 19:10Yeah, so the next core core skill has to do with relationships. So in DBT, we call this interpersonal effectiveness. So really having strategies for maintaining relationships, while also being able to ask for what you need, whether that's asking for help, and saying no turning down a request and keeping your self respect. So being able to balance maintaining relationships with these two other factors of asking for what you need, and also saying no, are very important you can imagine for a college student.Hannah Choi 19:47Yeah. Wow. I hadn't thought about that, like asking you for what you need and also saying no, because in a way that's asking for what you need. Jackie Wolfman 19:56Yes, absolutely. So being able to identify and understand your own limits. And taking the risk to set them can be very hard to practice, especially we don't want to make people upset, or we're afraid people won't like us, or we just don't have practice doing that. But we've so many demands of college students, it can be really, really helpful to be able to say, You know what, I have all these things on my plate right now, I'm not going to take on this other thing, or to be able to say, you know, what, what you're asking you to do actually crosses my values. So I'm going to decline.Hannah Choi 20:32But you're saying reminds me of something I read in a book once? I think it was And Then They Stopped Talking to Me by Judith Warner. Oh, don't quote me on that. But anyway, if it is that book, she writes about how important it is for kids to check in with how they feel after they hang out with someone. Jackie Wolfman 20:52Yeah, I love that. Because I think so much of our focus can be on does the other person like me? How am I coming across, right? And we all might feel that way at times or a lot of the time. But they'd be able to kind of switch that narrative and ask, well, actually, how do I feel around this person? And is this someone I want to be spending time with? is really, really important to be able to, again, it's that mindfulness piece, I think of checking in with yourself and seeing how do I feel? What is my reaction? Hannah Choi 21:19Yeah, and checking in with you, and figuring that out, might give you the confidence that you need to say to the person No, I'm not comfortable doing this or asking for what you need. Great! So what's next? So excited? Jackie Wolfman 21:35Yeah. So next, we have emotion regulation. So emotion regulation has a lot to do with being able to identify emotions, and really understand what in the world they're doing there and what they're doing for you. So like, what is the function? What is the purpose? What good are emotions? So having some understanding of that, and then having some tools to change the emotion when that's your goal. So obviously, that's not always going to be the goal, there's often times where it's very useful to sit with your feelings, tolerate them experience them, but there are times where you do want to change the intensity of what you're feeling, or how long that it's lasting. And so this is also a very important skill for college students, when who might get very overwhelmed by exam week, or things going on socially, or, you know, conflict with family or whatever it might be dealing with a pandemic, right? There's just so many, so many things, affecting people every day. So having some tools to feel like, okay, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. And I know some things that I can do to bring the intensity down. It can also apply to feeling numb or empty, right? If someone's feeling that lack of feeling or experiencing a lack of feeling, what can I do to get myself back into experiencing my, my emotions?Hannah Choi 23:01What strategies are do people find most useful for both of those situations?Jackie Wolfman 23:06Yeah, well, there's a really cool strategy in DBT, called opposite action. And basically, what that means is you identify what you're feeling, the feeling that you want to change, you identify what is the action urge, meaning, what is this emotion telling me to do? Right? Am I feeling angry? And I feel like yelling and screaming, am I feeling sad, and I want to climb in bed and pull the covers up over my head? What is the urge, and then you identify the opposite. And then you do that. And you're like, wow, so if I want to reduce feeling sad in the moment, and my urges to, you know, pull the covers over my head, if my goal is to change the feeling. If the goal is not to change my feeling, then, you know, go to bed and pull the covers over my head, there's a time and a place for that. But if my goal is to change the feeling that I would do the opposite, I would get active, I would be around other people, right? I would go for a brisk walk something like that. And that can really change how you're feeling. Hannah Choi 24:06I love that. And, gosh, I wish I had learned all these things when I remember being in college. And I think a lot of these strategies would have been really helpful. Jackie Wolfman 24:15No, I think that all the time. It would have been really nice to have some of these tools.Hannah Choi 24:19Okay, and then that was three. So what's the fourth?Jackie Wolfman 24:23So the fourth is called distress tolerance. And what this means is having skills for crisis or just really challenging situations where you can't fix it, or at least you can't solve it right away. But you don't want to do something to make it worse, right? Like we've all been in that situation where it's a tough situation, challenging situation and then you know, I go ahead and do something that just makes it all worse for myself. And so these are kind of what you think of usually what comes to mind when you think of like traditional coping skills like maybe distraction, maybe self soothing yourself in the moment because you can't solve it in that moment. But you can prevent yourself from doing something impulsive or risky or just, you know, not helpful, that sometimes, you know, we have those urges and those difficult moments because we want to fix it, or we don't want to feel that way anymore. So these are tools that can really help us to get through and even do well, in the most challenging situations.Hannah Choi 25:24So for kids who are going off to college, or who are kids who are in college, or anybody, really any adults, if they're listening, if if you don't have access to DBT, and you but you want to benefit from some of the strategies that are used in DBT, are there resources or ways to access that information that that people can find?Jackie Wolfman 25:52 Yes, absolutely. So anyone can get the workbook it's, it's has both handouts that you can read through and then it has worksheets, so that gives you assignments, basically, of how to go and practice some of these skills. So and there's a lot of information online as well. And there are some free resources, I can send you some of that information, if you want to put it in the notes for people, but there's some nice resources for parents as well, to be able to get support around some of these skills so that they can kind of identify them and help their children to learn and practice them, as well.Hannah Choi 26:32And would you say there's like an optimal age to start this kind of stuff?Jackie Wolfman 26:38It's such an interesting question, because now there's DBT-C, which is for children. Right? So. So there's any age, I think, can benefit from these skills? I've certainly mostly, you know, most worked often with adolescents, you know, starting as young as 13, 14. On up, but I know there's lots of people doing good work with, with kids even younger.Hannah Choi 27:04So, what can parents do, like in addition to those resources, what can parents do to support their kids?Jackie Wolfman 27:12Yeah, absolutely. So the first thing parents can do is, well, there's three things that parents can do, there's probably more but I would say parents can model, they can validate, and they can reinforce. So in terms of modeling, what I mean is parents can learn and practice some of these skills themselves. Because that will demonstrate to their children how to how to use some of these skills. And children learn from watching what their parents do when they're feeling strong emotions or having a difficult time. So I think that's a huge benefit. If you're learning and practicing these skills yourself, your children will benefit from that. The second skill for parents that I think is really, really core, to supporting college student high school students, and then who be them become college students is to learn and practice validation. So often, when children are younger parents are major problem solvers, right? They come in, they help their kids, they solve their problems for them to a large degree. But as kids get older, parents have less of a role in terms of problem solving, which can be a hard transition for parents. But it's an important one as their children get older and get more independent are going to be solving more problems on their own or with the help of others. So validation, is still something that parents can do. So reflecting back the emotions, or experiences or perspective of their child, communicating how their emotions and experience makes sense, and really providing that kind of warm, compassionate ear. While doing that they can say, you know, would you like some suggestions? Would you like some help with this? And if they say yes, offer them, but I think a lot of parents have had the experience of trying to jump in and, and solve the problem with some merit, very, some maybe very good ideas, but then their child is like "Naw, won't work, that don't work that well, you know, I don't want your help". Right. So I think validation is really, really, really important.Hannah Choi 29:23That's a that's a like a when, when we're working with a client who's new to coaching. We always ask first, like, Would you like, Would you like some ideas for this? And I think yeah, if someone says no, then they're not going to be receptive to it. If they say yes, then they're going to be receptive. And but if you don't ask, you don't know what you're gonna get, and you might end up ruining the relationship. Well, you're not ruining it. Jackie Wolfman 29:50But yeah, it becomes more challenging. You want to you want to kind of have that collaboration, that you're working on something together.Hannah Choi 29:59And it's hard as pair aren't too, cuz of course, we just want to fix everything for our kids. But it's it's got, especially when they're older, that's got to be up to them to be a part of it if they're if... I imagine that it is more effective if the child is like, "Yes, I want your help."Jackie Wolfman 30:18Yeah, I think so. I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, nobody wants to see their child suffering and in pain, and if there's something they can do to help solve it, you want to do it. And so sometimes I remind parents that validation is doing something, right? You're helping your child understand their experience, realize what makes sense about it. And then support them and figuring out what to do next.Hannah Choi 30:42What are some good questions that parents can ask in a situation where the child is really having a hard time? Jackie Wolfman 30:50Hmmm..."Tell me more about that." "It sounds like you're feeling blank. Is that right?" Right. So checking in with them. And I think, I think it's a good indication that you're being validating. If you get more information, right, if they're talking more, that's often a sign that they're feeling understood. So I think the simple questions are sometimes the most effective.Hannah Choi 31:21What you, one thing that you said, when you said, I think you're feeling this? Is that right? Reminds me of what previous guests of mine Sherry Fleydervish said, she said, "It's okay to be wrong. You know, it's okay to guess your child's feeling and be wrong". Because that can actually that can help them, figure it, help them figure out what they are feeling. And figuring out our feelings is a really big part of of that emotional regulation and awareness,Jackie Wolfman 31:49I completely agree, I can help them figure out what they're feeling. And also, it's the effort that matters, right? If I'm validating someone else, I don't have to get it right 100% of the time, but usually the other person, or at least when someone's validating me, I appreciate that they're trying. And if I say, you know, that's not quite it, and they say, Okay, it's all good, right? If they say, No, you are feeling what I think you're feeling, then it doesn't usually go that that great. But, you know, if you continue to roll with it, then then you know, I appreciate when someone's trying, they don't have to get it perfectly.Hannah Choi 32:23Yeah, so if you're the person who's validating someone else, you have to be okay with possibly being wrong. Exactly. Yeah. And then, and then allowing yourself to be wrong in that moment, and letting them tell you, hopefully, they'll tell you what they are feeling.Jackie Wolfman 32:37Exactly right. And then going with that. And even as a therapist, I do this, right. So I might, I might have missed the mark on something and then I and then I'll say, oh, okay, you know, help me understand what did I miss? And go from there?Hannah Choi 32:50Yeah, and it really helps them figure it out, I'm sure. Cool. And what's the third thing?Jackie Wolfman 32:57So, reinforce, so this means catching your child doing something effective, and pointing it out? Right. So in whatever way you think if you know your, you know, your child, they would respond to so noticing them using a skill, a coping skill, and maybe mentioning that, like I noticed, when you had an argument with your friend, you really took some time to think about what you were going to say before you texted them back back. And I you know, I really think that helped you communicate your point of view more clearly, right? Something like, you know, can be very simple. But to be able to notice them using a skill and then support that either by pointing it out by to being specific about what you think the benefit was. Maybe just gently noticing it, right? So anything like that, where you're you're focusing on drawing out those positive coping skills can be very supportive. Hannah Choi 33:54And that's very cool. So I imagine that in DBT, the parent portion of it is maybe bigger than in other in other types of therapy. Am I right?Jackie Wolfman 34:08Yes, especially with adolescents. So there are some DBT groups where you have adolescents in their own group and parents in their own group. And there are other groups where the adolescents and their parents are together and what we call multifamily groups. So you have multiple families in the same group, and everyone is learning and practicing the skills together. So it really reinforces this idea that this is not just for the student. This is also for the parents to be learning and practicing these skills as well and really working together. There also can be DBT parent guidance where parents or caregivers are meeting with a DBT therapists themselves to get help and coaching on how to use the skills with their children. So it does tend to be a big part of the treatment especially with younger folks.Hannah Choi 35:02And I imagine that if a if a child is at high risk than their parents are probably going to want to be involved. Jackie Wolfman 35:12Yes, yes. Yeah, it's absolutely important.Hannah Choi 35:17Yeah, we even see that in coaching kids, we have coaching coordinators, which are the family connection. So that the coach works with the client. And then the coaching coordinator works with the families and answers any questions that they have. And yeah, it's not like full on coaching sessions, but they're available to help, you know, parents understand the process of change, and you know, why their child might be resisting, or you know, just how the coach is approaching?Jackie Wolfman 35:48Yeah, that's so important, because I think how parents understand their child's behavior really informs how they respond to their child, and just having a different understanding of what might be going on might really make a big change. And I think I've seen a lot of parents really appreciate that to be able to, you know, be given some different perspective on what's going on.Hannah Choi 36:09Yeah, especially when you as the parent can't relate to the child's behaviors, their just approach to life. Like if you're really different from them, yeah, it's nice to have to feel like you're being supported as well. So you can really support your child. Jackie Wolfman 36:23Yeah, yeah, I see that a lot as well.Hannah Choi 36:26Great. So speaking of executive function, would you would you say do you see? I mean, we know the research shows that there is a connection between executive function skills challenges and Melton mental health. Do you see? How does that show up in your practice?Jackie Wolfman 36:45I see it in my practice, because I see people come to work with me, because they're having difficulty with their emotions, or trouble in relationships, or other types of behaviors that they want to work on, that have been getting in their way. And then it comes to light, but they may also have ADHD, or that they're having a hard time organizing themselves. And that's part of what's maybe increasing their anxiety about their classes, or, you know, being able to maintain an internship. And so there's just and there's also a lot of overlap, I think, between things that you can see with executive functioning difficulties and some different mental health diagnoses. So you know, difficulty focusing cognitive difficulties, impulsivity. And so some of the skills that were initially maybe developed to help people with their moods or their emotions can also really help people who are having these types of executive functioning difficulties too, because a lot of the there's just so much overlap there. But I think the emphasis that we have in DBT on emotions can be very helpful, because when emotions are high, we all know, it's much more difficult to think clearly. And we think very differently, emotions are lower. And so having those tools to reduce the intensity of what you're feeling, understand it not feel like you're crazy for having these reactions can then help you think more clearly, and, you know, execute some of those skills much more effectively than when emotions are high and running the show.Hannah Choi 38:27I just, I just recently sat down with Peg Dawson, the author of Smart but Scattered and, yeah, it was great. And she and she said something in her book, which really, really resonated with me and, and she said it, once you know the executive function skills, areas that you struggle with, if you notice that you are really struggling with them, and those things are really giving you a hard time, it's, it's a sign that you need to stop and pay attention to what's going on. And maybe you have too much on your plate, or maybe there's like a larger thing that needs to be addressed. And I just loved that, that advice and I use it for myself all the time. Like I have a terrible memory as the listeners now I've talked about this before and I noticed when I'm when I'm extra forgetful, I know that it means that I just have too much going on and I need to do something I need to do something needs to change.Jackie Wolfman 39:22I love that this idea that that it's telling you something important that you need to pay attention to. And I think emotions act in a similar way, right? Like what is this emotion telling me what is what is? What is it signaling to me about myself or the situation that I'm in? And then we know that can help figure out what to do from there. Hannah Choi 39:42Yeah, there's so much so much evidence and information and in our behaviors and are, how we feel. Yeah, I love it. I really approach my coaching that way. Like I love to ask "why?", like, let's really ask why. And you can ask why and get one answer and then you can ask why again for the whatever answer that was, and then you kind of really get down to the, the base of it. Like what's really, really, really going on? It reminds me of my parents used to call me the "why bird" when I was little because I asked why all the time? Practicing. Practicing for now. Jackie Wolfman 40:19Yeah, being curious. Hannah Choi 40:20Yeah, being curious is so it's such a, it can be a difficult thing to do because sometimes you don't like the answer you come up with. But it's so informative and just can really change your life. Yeah. So yeah. So you have anything else that you want to share, anything else that you think our listeners would, would benefit from?Jackie Wolfman 40:46I think one thing is that if you're going to be starting practicing some of these skills, to start with what feels easiest, start with something that you're drawn to. It doesn't have to be the biggest, most difficult thing that you can tackle at first. And like we said earlier, it's okay to make mistakes. And it's not always going to be easy. So I think, you know, that's something that's important to communicate. And, and really, just to having that respect for your own emotions and feelings and noticing if you're someone who judges yourself a lot for how you feel that that is also going to be an important thing to work on to really try to get back to that validation. Even that self validation of what is this I'm feeling and how does it actually make sense? Even when I feel like I don't like?Hannah Choi 41:37Yeah, it was it Walt Whitman, who said, Be curious, without judgment or something like, I'm sure whoever it was much more eloquent than that. But yeah, that's great. That's great advice. I guess, if you're just trying to change, do anything new, it's good to start with something that is small and feels like something that you're interested in that I don't think any change has ever been made by chewing, biting off the biggest piece and, and trying to make it happen. Yeah. All in all at once. That's great. And do you have anything going on that you're excited about?Jackie Wolfman 42:14I do. So next summer, we're going to be starting the pre-college, mental health prep. And then also coming up this fall, in addition to the DBT groups, I'm developing groups for those same age group range, so the college students and then the young adults up to age 30, groups for anxiety, and then a group for trauma. So I'm really excited to add those groups to what we're doing. Because I really believe in group therapy. And that experience is being so helpful for people and just really adding that extra support, in addition to you know, maybe their individual therapy that they have every week. Hannah Choi 42:54Have you noticed any change? I mean, you've been you've been in the business for a while now, have you noticed any change over the years with people's openness to therapy and talking about therapy?Jackie Wolfman 43:07I have, I think people have become more open to talking about therapy and willing to share that they're in therapy with other people. And I think even you know, maybe in part because of the pandemic, and how pervasive the difficulties with isolation have been for so many of us that it's it feels a little bit less stigmatized to ask for help around these things, because we just see so many people around us struggling in different ways. So, you know, it's it's possible that that has been helpful in that sense in terms of maybe reducing some stigma around it.Hannah Choi 43:48Have, do you notice a difference in the kids who are in your groups today post pandemic as compared to the kids that were in your groups before?Jackie Wolfman 43:57I think I think that just the real emphasis on feeling isolated, or feeling like things aren't going according to plan. Because they're not that you know, none of us expected this or planned for this or wanted this. So those are kinds of the themes that come up now that weren't as, that did come up before but weren't as strong before, that there was sort of this expectation of go to college I would spend a certain amount of time there. I would have my full senior year. I get to be with my friends right. And now there's just a such a uncertainty about the present and the future that is really hard to manage.Hannah Choi 44:40I was just want thinking like I wonder if maybe it maybe you've noticed this but I wonder if there's so this going through the pandemic is this collective shared experience that we've all had, and it is a form of trauma, right? Because it's like this small repeated exposure to difficult things over and over and over. And and I wonder if groups, people within groups therapy groups feel closer than they did before the pandemic? Because everyone's gone through the shared experience. I mean, I don't know if there's any way to measure that. But would you say?Jackie Wolfman 45:16I don't know. But anecdotally, I would agree, because I think it can be very validating to be in a space with people who have gone through similar things, which is what I hear a lot about the college groups that people really like, being in a group with other college students because of that shared experience. And because you're seeing that you're not alone with some of the things that you're struggling with. And if there's other people who are similar to you, in some ways, who might also be struggling. And so I think having that shared experience can be very validating, and comforting. And I do see people more seeking out groups, because they're looking for that connection with other people. Hannah Choi 45:54Yeah, right, right. And how wonderful is that they get the they get the social connection, and they get the side benefit of, or the side benefit of the social connection and the skills, the skills that they're learning with them. 46:05Yeah, I think they're equally important, I really do being able to connect with other people and, and differentiate, you know, where we're different and where we're similar and have those types of conversations. There's not always a ton of spaces where we can do that. So it's really fun, actually, to be able to provide that. Because it's very helpful and supportive and exciting when you see people using skills. And then it's not just me as a therapist who's encouraging them. But you they start to encourage each other and rely on each other for, you know, being more skillful using more of these tools. And it's just, it's really fun to see that develop.Hannah Choi 46:42And Jackie, can you share with our listeners where they can find you and more about your work?Jackie Wolfman 46:48Absolutely. So they can go to the Village Psychology website, which is villagepsych.com. So it's village p-s-y-c-h.com. And you'll find a lot of more information about the groups that we offer, my background and also ways to get in touch. Hannah Choi 47:05All right. Well, thanks so much, Jackie. I'm so glad you were here today. And you shared everything with us. This has been really, really fascinating and really interesting. I'd love to have you back to talk about more.Jackie Wolfman 47:16Thanks so much for having me. I'd love to come back.Hannah Choi 47:20And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Jackie, thank you so much for being here and taking time out of your day to listen. Jackie is about to have her first baby so we send her all the best wishes from Beyond BookSmart. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics we're covering in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts and be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop and you can easily find the resources we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

Something we've wanted to explore more deeply on the show is how much of an impact Executive Function skills can have on our social lives. All of those EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships. To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs - a social skills expert. CEO of Simply Social Kids, and mother of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joined me to talk about how social skills and executive function skills are connected and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and ability to function in the world. We also dive into the importance of building resilience and explore some practical strategies to develop a mindset that allows us to overcome the inevitable challenges and roadblocks we face in life.Related ResourcesSimply Social Kids - Nadine’s social skills company websiteYour Kids Can Achieve Social Success this Summer (With Your Help)!ConversationHQ - Conversation starter resourceResilience Training: How to Master Mental Toughness and ThriveThe Social Executive Function Skills That Elude Kids with ADHDContact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. Something I find very interesting is how interconnected these EF skills are with every single aspect of our lives. We feel their effects at school, at work and at home. If we struggle with organization, our backpacks or kitchen counters might be classified as disaster zones. If our working memory is not strong, we may forget that we have a quiz today or forget to go to the grocery store after we go to the gym. If cognitive flexibility is difficult for us, coming up with an essay topic or figuring out a different way to get to work when the car won't start might feel impossible. And what we mostly read about and hear about is how these EF skill challenges affect our academic performance or affect how we work or manage our homes and families. And something that I wanted to explore more deeply is how much of an impact executive function skills can have on our social lives. All of these EF challenges that can make aspects of school or home life hard, can also really affect how easily we can make friends and our ability to maintain those friendships. To learn more, I sat down with Nadine Briggs, who is a social skills expert, and also a mom of an adult son with ADHD. Nadine joins me to talk about exactly this, how social skills and executive function skills are connected, and how working on them can make a huge difference in our happiness and our ability to function in the world. Life is short, and it can be a lot more fun with friends. So taking the time to do a little bit here and there to improve our social skills through working on our executive function skills can make a huge difference. Hmm, okay, well, this is easy for me to say as an extrovert. You might be listening to me and rolling your eyes thinking No thanks. I'll just stay at home and snuggle with my Netflix. But hear me out because you introverts might have a partner or kids who have more social needs than you. And this episode is packed full of really useful tips and strategies to help both ourselves and our kids, find more meaningful interactions with people and hopefully make and maintain friendships that enrich our lives. Okay, so onto the show. Hi, Nadine, thanks so much for joining me today.Nadine Briggs 02:43Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 02:45Would you like to introduce yourself to our listeners?Nadine Briggs 02:48Sure. I'm Nadine Griggs, I'm CEO of Simply Social Kids. And we have a social skills program where we work with ages eight to 28. And we have our in-person groups that are in Tyngsboro, Massachusetts, but we also have an online program for people who are not in our local area. We run weekly social skills groups to help them to make friend connections and just learn how to be more social.Hannah Choi 03:09That's great. So I guess through the lens that I'm always looking through is executive function skills, and maybe you know, kids with ADHD, anxiety, high functioning autism, how are those kids empower the social skills of those kids impacted?Nadine Briggs 03:29That's exactly who we work with - kids with high functioning autism, ADHD, anxiety, or just general awkwardness. They might not have a diagnosis at all, they just can't quite make friends. And they do struggle a lot. Because a lot of times, they're not able to really figure out how to initiate a social interaction, or they don't know how to get together with people like they want to hang out. And I usually and we'll talk mostly about teenagers today, I think in terms of that's, that's kind of the population that is struggling a lot with this. Because they're, they're no longer relying on their parents to schedule their playdates for them. And so it's really hard. They, they need the help, but they don't really know how to get that help. And they don't know how to initiate. So what often happens with teenagers is they're just alone. And they and they don't know how to get get out of their own way in that, in that sense. They don't know how to schedule time with other people. And some of the parents I've talked to more recently, we've had conversations about how they think that their kids are okay alone. And that's actually not true at all. They're not okay alone. They're really lonely. They just don't know how to initiate getting together with people. Or they might do it and it's a little bit awkward, or they don't have anybody they even know what a call or they're anxious about calling people. You know, a lot of times kids will say to me, he'll say, you know, what do you do over the weekend, they'll say, oh, I didn't do anything. And then they'll say, you know, nobody ever calls me to do anything with them. And I'll always ask them, Well, how many people did you call to do something with and when I flip that script, they always say no one because they just don't know how to really organize that and get that going for them and, and reach out to people. And they, a lot of it is their, their memory like they don't think about it, they forget, if I say, you know, a lot of times I'll write on the on the whiteboard at my center, I'll write up "text somebody on the drive home today". So it's fresh in their minds, or you know, is they don't think about it, and they then they get upset that they don't have anything going on. So it's kind of this lack of, of action that they they struggle with. So that's a huge piece.Hannah Choi 05:29Something that you said earlier, makes makes me think about, like you said, so up until the teenage years, or maybe tweens, parents have been the people that have helped them set up playdates and purely just because kids don't have little kids don't have phones, they don't have ways to, you know, to connect with their friends. So they need to use their parents, how can we - What are some things that we can do as parents to help kids shift from a from us, arranging those playdates to them, arranging them?Nadine Briggs 06:03This is where smartphones are really helpful for that, you know, one of the things that we suggest to parents a lot is just to create, like a social plan for your kid with your kid, I should say, not for your kid, because when you create a social plan, basically you sit down with your your teen and you say, How often would you like to see people? You know, you might have a kid on the spectrum who's fine with once a month or you know, a couple times a month might be fine. Or maybe when they do get together? It's a shorter amount of time than somebody who didn't have that diagnosis, they get they do get some social fatigue sometimes. So maybe it's a couple hours, rather than a four hour thing? Is it just how often should they get together? And then figure out okay, well, let's let's put something kind of in our minds or on the calendar of every other Friday or every other weekend, we're going to try to do something with people. See, you have that structure of in a month, this is how often I'm going to see people or, or maybe look at the clubs that are offered at their middle schools and high schools and say, Oh, how many of these do you think we should sign up for? And then kind of get again, getting those things on the calendar? You know, I think that's really important to figure that part out, well, how much socialization do we need? And then thinking about it? Who would I socialize with, who's who's kind of my shortlist of people, a lot of times, I'll take a, you just do like a circle within a circle within a circle kind of a diagram. With kids I work with, it's okay, who's in that inner inner circle? Who is in that next circle out that maybe you want to bring into your Inner Inner Circle and kind of create that list of people. So you have a focus of, I'm going to focus on this one to three people rather than, you know, 12 people here to give it something a little bit more manageable for them to focus on those people? And then figure out well, what do they like to do? You know, how do we get together with them? Where do I see them most often? Am I on a sports team with them? Are they in my class? You know, are they in scouts with me, you know, what, where do I see this person, and then start to figure out how you can spend time with that person and share like interest with them. So kind of chunking it down into smaller pieces, just like you would do with academic stuff, or executive functioning right and make it feel more manageable. If it's if it's too much, if you're trying to be friends with like everybody at the lunch table, rather than just the people on either side of you, that's when that anxiety can kick in. And once that happens, then they start to act out a little bit, they might either they might shut down. Or they might get overly silly, he might want to try to be really funny and humorous, and really show off he kind of thing. And when that happens, that puts people off too. And so when that starts to kick in, we get all sorts of things happen. And so we're trying to keep them them calm and just, you know, think about it more in a more organized fashion. And they just to be more deliberate in those ways, I think, yeah, right.Hannah Choi 08:53I had never really thought about that. Like, this is sounds silly. Again, it's switching gears a little bit to adults, but like my husband and I have very opposite social demands, needs. Like I'm very social, and he prefers to not socialize as much. And so I love that idea of sitting down and kind of breaking down like, well, this is what I need. And this is how I can reach that. And this is what you need and how you can reach that. So I imagine with within families that, that that does happen a lot, but between kids and parents and between siblings as well. So maybe everyone sitting down and doing a social plan and seeing how the family plans can fulfill that need for some people. And and maybe family plans won't fulfill that need for one of the kids and they need to have additional, like additional social interaction with friends or I meanNadine Briggs 09:46you bring up a great point too, because a lot of the the apples don't fall too far from the tree sometimes. And so you might have parents who are really not that social. In here you have a kid who's not that social and they don't have any more of an idea how to help their child with socialization because they're not particularly social people. And that's where it you know, obviously having a social skills coach and getting some outside help can really be beneficial because they don't know how, and they don't know what's getting in their way.Hannah Choi 10:12Right? That's so interesting. Yeah. And so if their parents aren't comfortable with it themselves, and they're not going to be, it's going to be difficult for them to helpNadine Briggs 10:22Their kids don't have that role model. They don't if their parents don't have friends over for barbecues and things on the weekend, they're not seeing that, how that should look Yeah. So they're not really getting that in the home. Right. So they may be getting that at school. It depends who they're hanging out with at school, if that's a good role model, and maybe not a good role model.Hannah Choi 10:42Yeah, that's so interesting. I was just talking with my niece the other day, and we were asking her, and she doesn't have any siblings, and we're asking her how she felt about school ending. And she said that she was glad it was ending, because you know, it's tiring, school is tiring. She's in fifth grade. But then she said, but I'm going to be lonely, because I'm not going to be able to be with my friends all the time. And so and, and her mom is not she is a social person, but she's not super social. So I, I imagine that, that it's, yeah, I don't know, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here. Nadine Briggs 11:19It still might be a little bit on her to kind of say, Yeah, I'd like to meet some friends at the park or go to a, you know, an amusement park or mini golf. And, you know, in all those things in the summer, which are great ways to get together with people. But yeah, it is, it's very difficult if the parent isn't that social. And like I always suggest to parents to kind of think about where you might go, and then invite a bunch of people to join you at that date and time. And you might go and no one shows or you might go and maybe a few people come a park or something just saying we're going to be there's a park called Friendship Park near us and thinking about friendship. So it comes to my Friendship Park, you know, three o'clock on Saturday, you know, who wants to come and you hope you other kids will be there. But then you don't really have that pressure of, I've asked this one person and me. So they could just show up at the same time. I used to do that a lot with my kids when they were little, like so we're all going to go to the movies at this time on this day. Who wants to come with us? You know, we're going to be in this we're going to be in this row. That was before you had to really Yeah, exactly. No know, but then that we would just other people like, yeah, we'll meet you there, you know, and it would took a little bit of the pressure off of, you know, inviting those individual person and then having them reject you.Hannah Choi 12:35Yeah, right. I love that. And I love what you what you said about how you can use like the same skills that you use to break down academics into smaller chunks, you can apply that to social skills. So what are some other ways that kids can work on, maybe not work on their executive function skills, but use their emerging executive function skills to support their social skill development? Nadine Briggs 13:01You know, one of the big issues is the the memory challenge. A lot of these guys don't have great memory. And, and that's a problem because you think about when you socialize with somebody, let's say you're gonna go to, you're gonna go to the market, you're gonna bump into somebody you haven't seen in several months. Right away, you're gonna go, your mind is gonna go okay, what do I know about this person? What I know about their life? What is the last time I saw them? What was going on with them? And you're filtering that out? Geez, what was the thing that I just last knew about them? And you might have maybe their kids studied abroad, or you know, to ask, Oh, how was Italy or something, you'll remember those things. Kids who have that, that challenge. They don't necessarily remember those things about people. So they don't know how to find that information about that person, retrieve it, and come up with it. And so, a lot of times what we'll do, if that's a random example, that you're going to bump into somebody at the market, but if you're going to get together with somebody you haven't seen in a while, spend some time deliberately thinking about what you remember about that person. Give yourself that opportunity to say, All right, I'm gonna get together with Susie, what do I know about Susie? Susie just got a new puppy. You know, last time I saw her. Okay, well, let's ask about the puppy. Those types of things. So I think they need to think about some of that stuff before they go. And then sometimes even to, to prepare them for socializing. They can put a few little notes in their phone and the contact for that person likes Fortnight, you know, just got a puppy, whatever information they have about that person. Now they have to remember to put the note in the phones. So we can have that challenge. Yeah, that is a great way to have just a couple little things. I'm not gonna put a big dossier on the person your phone, there's a couple little things about them, and then even go through like a conversation starter website. There's one that we like called Conversation HQ. And I'll see the kids just scroll through the conversation starters on conversation HQ. And don't ask them verbatim and say "where do you where would you be five years from now?" or whatever it is, like, look through them and find one that is something you might actually say. Or maybe it triggers something that you can change it to something you'd actually say. So it's not that you're going to sit there. And you're basically, you know, interview the person with all these conversation starters, you're going to just kind of get ideas for what you might want to talk about. And then you use it in your own words, using your own language so that it's more natural for you. And it's something that you'd actually say, but you have those topics in your head. Right, like, like it, let's say they love nature. And we had a, I don't know, the meteor shower the other night, which it was cloudy where I was, and then we got to see it. And let's say that, you know, you've had that conversation with somebody, they also like space, right? You could say, "Hey, you happen to catch the meteor shower." "Oh, it was cloudy near me." Did you happen to see it? Or do you think there's life on other planets, you start to get in a conversation perhaps like that, if that's something you know, that they like, I wouldn't just randomly walk up to somebody, and say "Do you believe in life on other planets?" But if that's your thing, you just start so they go through and you might scroll, scroll through a lot of them before you have some that are something you like. And if you think you'll forget, put a couple little notes in your phone. And on the drive there, review some some of the notes that you have about that person to help spark those memories for them.Hannah Choi 16:17It reminds me of like test prep, right, like getting ready for tests, prior knowledge and like doing a little research. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. It actually reminds me, I remember my husband once. He was he said to me, oh, yeah, I was just thinking, we're getting together with so and so you know, tonight or whatever. And so he was he was trying to remember like, what sports teams that that person liked. And he was reading up on the articles about the those teams. Nadine Briggs 16:52Yeah, it helps. Because then you're, then you feel less anxious. And you might not end up even talking about sports. But that helps your anxiety. Yeah, kind of, you're in check. You feel more prepared that you've I mean, I believe because I'm a very social person, I'm a lot, My husband and I are a lot like you and your husband. I'm the social one. He said, "you just saw people, do you really need to see people again?"Hannah Choi 17:12Yes, yes, I do.Nadine Briggs 17:14You know, but I don't even do that. If I'm gonna go to a barbecue where maybe I only know the people hosting it. And I might know of the other people and seeing them in a while, or I know them, but I'm not really friends with them. And we're just more acquaintances, you know, I will do the same thing and start to think what do I know about that person? What is last time I saw them? What are some things I might be able to talk to that person about and prepare myself so that I don't feel uncomfortable going to a place where I don't really know that many people? So I think it's a pretty good strategy and for, for kids with executive functioning challenges, I think that it calms their anxiety and it prepares them with some topics, and they can even make some notes in their phone and just go to the bathroom and review. me look at my notes on some kids might do. It's I work with, you have to tell them to not necessarily, yeah, do it verbatim, or they write a little bit black and white in their thinking and a little bit literal. So you have to tell them, it just wouldn't just go to the bathroom and take a look at your notes in there. Don't do it in front of the person. Yeah, believe it or not, that's one of the things we need to do is just connect those dots that are obvious to other people aren't necessarily obvious to the people that we work with. So we have to say things that aren't normally said out loud, like things like that.Hannah Choi 18:25Right? Right. But how wonderful that you're teaching the kids that and because if they're if they don't have anyone in their life that either feels comfortable telling them that or it just doesn't, they just don't know what to tell them that then then that's, that's so great. And I'm sure that they feel comfortable with you telling them that because you've created a safe space and, and they're, you know, they're18:48That relationship with the kid is really important, because we are the ones if they tell a joke that's not funny, you know, we're not going to do the polite laugh. Yeah. And that's what most people will do is it's my job to not do the polite laugh. And to tell you why that feels funny, because most people will do that, especially if they're feeling uncomfortable. They, you know, the social norm is to just laugh a little bit and hope they stop talking about the thing that's, you know, that's creepy, or whatever the topic is that they're talking about. And, you know, it's, it's our job to say, that's not a great thing to talk about with your friends. And so you do have to have a good relationship with somebody before you can be that brutally honest with them. Yeah. Right. And, and then they know that what the role is to it, they know that all our goal is is to help them make those connections so they can have those deep, meaningful friendships and not be lonely anymore. Yeah. And so once they know that, and that's what our motivation is, and they take it really well. I mean, they're great about it, and they, they do apply it to their lives. Sometimes they need to be reminded because they do have difficulty sometimes taking it on themselves taking responsibility for what they do. And so a lot of times we'll preface it by saying, are you ready to take what I'm about to tell you and apply it to your own life? Sometimes if we just prime them with that, then you get that buy in Yes, I'm about to take what you say and apply it to my own life, then that then you they're ready to receive what you're saying and really take it in. In sometimes that's needed for some kids.Hannah Choi 20:17And we do that with coaching to write like you like, you always just have to meet someone where they are. And you have to find out like, like, are you ready for this? Is this Yeah? Is this something that like you said, are you ready to take it on? So how can so so your you know, your, the social skills work that you do with your clients happens, like, like, they take that with them home, and they practice it, practice it at home, I'm sure how can parents support their kids that are that might be socially awkward, and might need to be working on these skills.Nadine Briggs 20:51Yeah, they practice it in our program, too, which I think is a big piece of it, because we coach them in the moment. So we teach them and then they get to, they hang out with other people their age, that they practice it there. So for parents, you know, there's an education for a lot of them, if they're, if they're naturally social, they're probably already coaching their kids quite well, because they know how to be social. If they're not, though, and they tend to be a little bit awkward. Either leave it to the professionals, or, or study up on it, there's a lot of really great books, there's a lot of, you know, good podcasts, and there's different resources and, and take that on as something that they need to educate themselves on. And they might need to look at all the different types of things that we would coach on, like conversation skills, flexibility, you know, perspective taking, not trying to control what other people do. And that's a biggie, and all the different pieces that go into socialization and figure out what are the things that your their kids struggle with the most, and then study those things, and help them with those things. Because again, trying to tackle everything at once is really hard. Social skills is vast, there are so many different pieces to socialization. And we coach on social skills, but also resiliency. And that's a whole other big topic of that. But I think they need that as well, because they do get some level of rejection in their lives. And they need to be able to bounce back from that. But they have to study up on it, and then help them apply it to their own lives and even have them apply, have the parents become more social tooHannah Choi 22:15Yeah, it might even help and might help them might help the parents.Nadine Briggs 22:19It's funny. We have a parent support group that we run for people who are enrolled in our program, they're welcome to come on every week for an hour. And we've had people come on who make friends with other people, as parents, and I'd had I'd one day I had this dad come sit at my desk and the nicest funniest dad, he's such a great guy, I mean, of all the people you want to be friends with, and you'd want to go out and have a beer with this guy. He's just that person. And he sat at my desk. And he said, Nadine, I gotta tell you, I don't have any friends. Oh, and it broke my heart. Of all the people in my program of all the parents who would have friends, it would be this guy. It's like, I feel I feel jealous of my wife. She's got friends from college, and they go what every Friday night and, and I sit home and my kids a teenager, and he's, he's in his room. And he doesn't talk to me and sit there by myself. But you know, we talked about how he could get out and you join like, the Lions Club or Kiwanis, or get involved in community service and, and get himself out there to meet people and socialized you, which is also going to give you know more of a role model for his kid who needed that.Hannah Choi 23:26Hmm. So was he able to?23:28He did, he did, he actually became friends with another dad, in our program. So we had before the pandemic, we had a parent waiting room, where they were able to socialize. And that was good for the parents to make friends with each other. And actually, what used to happen then, too, is I would go back and I would tell them what we did in the group, the lesson that we taught to all of the parents and they would talk about it themselves. Now we have to write a summary because I'm not allowing as many people in the building, but they still they get the lessons that we do in person that we tell them what we did and what we coached on. So then they can carry that forward with their kids. And they're using the same language and all of that, because they have it all in a written report every week. Yeah.Hannah Choi 24:08So something you said earlier, it makes me realize, but it really is so clear how connected executive function skills are to social skills, like the perspective taking and cognitive flexibility and emotional regulation. Those are really, really tied together. So I guess, I guess when kids are practicing working on their social skills, they are going to naturally end up working on executive function skills. And do you think the reverse happens like when kids work specifically on executive function skills, maybe in school or with a coach like if they're in executive function coaching, do you think then it then has a positive impact on their social skills?Nadine Briggs 24:47I absolutely do because you think about just even just taking like tasks and initiation. One of the biggest struggles with the kids that I work with is just going over to somebody and starting a conversation, right? They don't know how to do that. And so they tend not to do that. And even getting together, like I said, you know, here comes summer with all this fun stuff to do, let's say they all want to go to like an amusement park, you know, being able to kind of figure out all the details around that, and get that off the ground. So they actually go and it actually happens, you know, they're, they're using all kinds of executive functioning skills for that. So some of the kids I work with, I actually have a, an event planner that I give them, it's like this one pager and it's like our parents involved, well, how much time is going to be needed? Who's going to drive? Who am I inviting? Here's the website, what do you do if there's rain? You know, is there a plan B, like all of these details, in an event planner, and again, I have to say to them, you use the event planner, with your parents, you don't tell your friends that used an event, right to figure out how to go to amusement park, yeah. But those things are really, really very helpful to them. Because those are the details that they have a lot of trouble with. They don't know how to do all of that and figure out a day at a time and especially when parents are involved, and you're going to have a big group that goes, all of those things are really difficult for them. But yes, I think they, they learn and as you know, as kids get older, and they do start to learn, and they practice those executive functioning skills. It gets better as they get older. Right? Yes. And I see that with my own son, he's 22. Now he's almost 23. And he has ADHD, and for sure, his executive functioning has gotten much, much better as a young man than it was certainly when he was a teenager in middle school. Right? Socially and academically,Hannah Choi 26:30Yeah, all of those, all of those more advanced executive function skills are really just starting to emerge, at the same time that kids are starting to crave that independence and wanting to be friends have friends and interact outside of their parents. So that's this kind of an interesting crossover time where they're craving that independence, but they're also not really consistent yet, with all of those executive functions,26:57Righ, and teenagers get can get very upset if parents try to help them with their executive functions. There's a thing about it that's very triggering,Hannah Choi 27:07Right? I was actually just going to say that what I love about that event planner is that it, it gets the parent out of it. So that, that we see this a lot like it actually, when I was in my conversation with Fran, we were talking about how, when you can get yourself out of an executive function or a social skills challenge, like friction, then it can help your relationship with your child, it also gives your kid such a great opportunity to really develop those things independently, and practice those skills independently. But the event planner worksheet has all the things that they really need to be considering to have a safe and fun experience. That and those are all the things that a parent would say, like don't forget this. Don't forget that. Don't forget that. But then the parent doesn't have to because the event planner, maybe the parent just has to remind this their kid to use the event planner, but they don't have to say like well, you know, what are all the details?Nadine Briggs 28:11Exactly? Yeah. And they're gonna forget them anyway, even if they did,Hannah Choi 28:14Right. It's gonna be written down. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, like I would love to work on that. You know, like use like I'm just thinking about like coaching like how how what an awesome activity to do in an executive function coaching session is to work on an event planning activity becauseNadine Briggs 28:35Yeah, the kids that work on that all their friends benefit greatly from that time because I'm putting together all these events I'm doing the apple picking and the go visit the castle. And you know, and there's one young woman that I work with, and like her friends had it made, they were doing all kinds of stuff. They were going to Boston and they were shopping and be-bopping around Faneuil Hall and it was because I'm like I'm on the other end, you know with that event planner, saying "mom dad can they do this you?" know and then the other friends are just getting invited. They're like this is great. They don't have to do anything!Hannah Choi 29:10I love that and then and then the child who's who's arranging it gets such satisfaction now just seeing all her friends having fun and and having like I made this happen I did this. someone who like I bet there's ton of a ton of opportunities for them to see evidence like to look back on - like a year ago, I I could not have done this and now when I'm going to Fanueil hall with my girlfriends.Nadine Briggs 29:37Well the thing about that too is those experiences are so important because those are the bonding things right like when you're I was talking to a family last night they live out in like the Chicago area and I'm working with their their teen. And it's like you know when you let's say you have an ice cream social at your house, right and you have you know, the chocolate and vanilla and all these different things. When the kids start throwing marshmallows at each other. They're, and they're belly laughing over like, what somebody's got hit me I and all those little things that happen when you when you create those moments, and that's that bonding stuff obviously "if you belly laugh with somebody, you're pretty much gonna be friends for life". Yes. Those experiences where you had a little food fight and it was harmless and maybe one you know, fell under something and we had an ant problem six months later and mom got all upset that was totally worth it. Teenagers love that stuff. So then they then they remember that or they see a marshmallow and go, "remember this?", you know, and then all of a sudden, they're all laughing again. So it's, that's the stuff that really bonds them in that meaningful way. Those types of things. And that's why it's so important to create those moments in or have them create the moments eventually, when they're old enough to do it, and have the executive function skills to do it. So that stuff happens for them. Because that's, that's the bonding stuff. That's what creates lifelong friendships. Right?Hannah Choi 30:56I love that. It reminds me of something that my sister was telling me that she heard about was like, there's like three types of fun, like, type one fun, which is, I don't know, I'm gonna get them wrong. But one of one of the funds is where you end up in like a flow state where you you'd like lose track of time, you don't notice the passage of time and your belly laughing and you're just like, totally in it and having so much fun. And I think that's probably where like, not inside jokes come from, but, you know, like, just share these like shared common experiences that that kids like, like you said, like they find a marshmallow and everyone burst out laughing. Just seeing a marshmallow. And from an outsider perspective, you're like, what's so funny about a marshmallow?Nadine Briggs 31:36Right, exactly. Yeah, that's the bonding stuff. Those are those are the those are the really precious moments.Hannah Choi 31:42Yeah. And so if you, if you if it's, if it's challenging for you to get into social to create those social opportunities for you, then you're not good, then you're going to miss out on that. So I love that what good work you're doing. It's so wonderful.Nadine Briggs 31:59It's so much fun. Yeah, it'sHannah Choi 32:01fun with the kids. So I have, like, I'm gonna disc kind of repeating myself, but I'm just thinking about as a coach for executive function skills, a lot of the work that our coaches do is on academics, because you know, that's what kids spend a lot of their time doing. But then when we move into the summer months, it's a great opportunity to work on other things. So like that event planner is a good idea. Do you have any other ideas that that kids could work on during the summer?Nadine Briggs 32:30I like things, like socializing, I like things that are out in the community, because you can go to the thing, and you can leave when you're ready to leave. When you're, when you're at someone's house, there's pressure to, you need to make sure you have enough that entertains that person and there's going to be a drop off and a pickup time, that's going to be set. And what if you're done and there's 45 minutes left of your time, that can feel awkward and uncomfortable. And so you don't want to have negative social experiences, you want to have positive social experiences. So like at my center, there's actually a ice cream stand that's one mile down the road. And I say to kids all the time, my team groups is like into their parents, like bring an extra five bucks, and go get an ice cream. At this place. It's a mile down the road. And I know there's kids who go every time every single week after group, they go with their parents. But that way you go you have an ice cream, you're there for half an hour, you socialize for a bit, or maybe you're there longer if you're having good conversation, it's up to you at that point, and you leave when you're ready to leave. That's great. So those it anytime that you're doing something that you're you have that as a conversation topic. So you're going to an amusement park, and you can talk about your favorite rides and things you like things you don't like, what are you going to get for lunch? What prizes Do you want to try to win? There's all these these points of conversation that you can have when you do that. Or if even if you go bowling or a mini golf or anything like that bumper boats, those types of things that are available in the summer, then then you can talk about the golfing, right. Oh, look at that shot. Oh, I can't believe I got in the water that time and you have those things to help them to connect and bond over. It's a lot harder. When you're just someone's at your house. And you're you'll have to have conversation with them the whole time. And you've got to find things that entertain them the whole time is a lot more pressure. Yeah, that's so interesting. If you for adults, you think about you go out with another couple and you sit there at dinner. Yeah, you have to talk topics for that whole time at dinner, right? So if you go out to dinner with somebody new, you might be a little anxious because you're like, oh gosh, what if we run out of stuff to say before the check comes?Hannah Choi 34:39Maybe just drinks?Nadine Briggs 34:41Exactly. For appsHannah Choi 34:45So in our basement, we when we refinished our basement and when the kids were little we were trying to decide what to do with the space. And and I said we're saying let's just leave it open and so we have like, like a Big beanbag, and we have swings that hang from the joists. And just like a lot of like gross motor fun things. And so when my, my friends have kids over, and I can tell they're like, it's kind of like, they're not really sure what to do, obviously go downstairs and play, you know, if they haven't already gone down. And it's fun to like, have just something to be silly with. So I imagine, you know, like going to the park or I don't know, like going for a walk or something where you're being physical is can kind of give you something to do with your body while you're trying to talk. 35:38Yeah, this air hockey table that is at our center is enormous. Because when we think about this awkward teenage boy, let's say he's 14 and he walks in. He's anxious, he's socially awkward. He doesn't know anybody. He doesn't know me. He doesn't know any of the staff. He doesn't know any of the kids and he walks into a room with like, 10 other kids. Wow. That's a that's an ask. Yeah, that's a big ask. So when they walk in, I mean, obviously, we're there to greet them and everything. But one of the things I love them to do is to start playing air hockey. That's because then you're actively engaged in a social, you know, item, basically your game. Yeah, but you don't really have to talk.Hannah Choi 36:12 Yeah. And it's one on one.Nadine Briggs 36:15One on one or two on two. Yeah. And you can talk about the shot, you can talk about a good shot, you know, we're almost got that one in. And then you already have that conversation starter right there. But you're engaged without just standing there awkwardly waiting for somebody to come talk to you. Yeah, you know, it's such a nice way to break in. Now. I do have to watch that table to make sure they don't stay at the table we can. There are some kids who will do that. And I have to say I need you to branch out from the table and go do something. I've tried something else. But yeah, we watch it. But it's a great way for them to start because they're again, they're busy, They're engaged. They're socializing, but they don't have to say too much yet.Hannah Choi 36:53That's great. So that makes that leads into a really good question that I have for you is, where do you start? Like if, like, where's a great place to start for someone who is struggling socially?Nadine Briggs 37:05Well, like I said, I would start with that plan, that social plan. And I would figure out what are what are their biggest hang ups for socialization is? Is it anxiety? Is it conversation skills? Is it that they don't have access to people that they would be friends with? Do you need to go join scouts or a youth group? Or you know, get yourself out there in some other way? So kind of narrow down? What is it we need? Do we need to work on anxiety? Do we conversation skills, do we need to find your people and they are way down that way and start start that way and the lowest lowest hanging fruit, you know, who is who are your people, and let's go find them and then start to ingratiate ourselves to those people, it kind of depends on the kid. There are some kids who who don't even realize even as teenagers, that they need to put themselves physically near someone else. Even in my center, I'll have a bunch of kids playing air hockey, and they're all watching the air hockey and one kid on the other side of the room. He doesn't necessarily understand that the signal you're giving is that you don't want to really be friends with people, when really it's your anxiety, just stand with everybody else. Put your body there and and be in that group, you know, those types of things. So that's where I would start is just to kind of break down? Where do we think the biggest issue is, and then if they need social coaching, and they need an intervention of some sort to seek that out, I think this summer, you know, we're, we're crazy busy this summer, I think because it is such a good time to get people kind of caught up, you know, from the pandemic, you know, a lot of people felt like they lost a couple years. And so this is an opportunity for them to just focus on the skills, and you know, things that they might not have been able to work on for the last couple and get ready for the next school year. You know, so if they're not able to do it, if the parent is kind of lost, and they don't know how to narrow down that list of friends and figure out where the problem spots are, and either study it up on their own, or get some outside help to do better with those areas that are making it difficult for them, you know, get help to do that so that their kids are moving forward, particularly teenagers, teenagers developmentally start to separate from their parents from at about age 11 ish, so that they can eventually leave the nest when they're right after high school. And when they start to separate from parents, they need to be able to latch on to peers. And if they don't have that peer group, they're just kind of floating out there without being tethered to anything. And that that's what that concerns me because they do need tethering to other teens. And they need to find that place where they're okay. They're accepted there. They belong. So it's really important for parents to find that. Otherwise, they're very unsettled. And you might even find that they don't want to pursue anything outside of high school, they want to stay home and we don't we don't want to have that basement of yours be used for a 35 year old. No, no, no. So right. You want you want that separation, you know, and so you have to help that happen because developmentally they they really crave and need that to be able to become a functional adult. Yeah, so it's critically important that they find that. And, you know, it's, it can be really difficult if somebody has super unique interests and all these other things. So you really have to help them find their way, one way or the other, if they can't do it, get outside help to help them do it.Hannah Choi 40:18Yeah. And I imagine as parents, I mean, it's, it's hard enough to, to let your kid you know, start to move away from you and out into the world when you when you're confident about your child's social skills. So I imagine that, that for parents whose kids do struggle with social skills, it is even harder to to, to support that or allow that to happen. And to do it's almost like you're like pushing them out of the nest. Nadine Briggs 40:50But well, I always say prepare them for whatever their next big phases. So if they're, if they're in elementary school, you're preparing them for middle school, you're in middle school, you're preparing for high school, when you're in high school, you're preparing for whatever's after high school. And if after high school is college for you, you have to be ready to live in a dorm. And so when you think unless you're going to commute or whatever, if you're gonna live in that dorm, you're gonna be just a few feet away from some other person you don't know. And you might even be in a forced triple and a little tiny room. That's a lot of socialization and connectedness to other people that you may or may not do well at. And so that can really affect kind of how you are over your overall well being if you're not able to do well in those settings. So I always look at if you're in middle school, and you're super socially awkward, let's get on it now, and get you ready for you know, if you if you think you're a college bound person, or even if you're not, you're even in the military, they have lived in close quarters. If you're working with people, you decide to go to trade school and you go to work, you know, a job, you need to still be able to get along with people, right? You know, and even in your first jobs, you know, when you're old enough to work, a lot of times your boss is maybe a power hungry teenager. That's right, you're not necessarily going to have some 40 year old seasoned manager knows how to handle you're right, you're gonna get somebody who's maybe not that great at managing people and in their own communication skills around your employment. Yeah, you know, those are all challenges they need to be ready for. So it is really important to get on all of these soft skills as best we can early as possible so they can be more competent.Hannah Choi 42:29Yeah, those transitions are huge. And I and I think it's, it can be difficult to be that forward thinking when you're in the middle of, you know, the, the difficulty of high school or the you know, the, the the challenges of middle school, it can be hard, it can be hard to be so forward thinking and but it sure does help if you're able to, I know that's something that we coaches work a lot a lot on is like the transition transitions, yeah, transition from from school to work, or from school to college and working on all the associated executive function skills that come with that and turns out there's a whole bunch of social skills, too.Nadine Briggs 43:09Finding your voice, finding your confidence, you know, if someone says something to you being able to kind of report back or say something back to them that feels comfortable to you. And those types of things are important, like I that one of the young women I work with, she's super shy, and people will say things like, Oh, I can't believe she talked, you know, and I tell her I say yeah, I did. Yeah, just like of course I did. I did that like, Yeah, you bet I did! you know, to get her from oh my gosh, I can't believe they said that, too. Yeah, I did is a journey, you know, and but by the time they're done with high school, we want them to be in the Yeah, I did. And yeah, I am, you know, here I am worlds, you know, are you ready for me and have that kind of confidence in themselves. And then that takes time to build that up if they don't have that now and then so it's a it's a process to get there.Hannah Choi 44:01And it takes a lot of being brave and putting yourself out there and being vulnerable and trying new things, which is super scary. And I'm sure that the kids that come to you are so grateful for for what you do and the parents of the kids too, because it is so scary to try new things and to have a coach or you know, some kind of support person along with for the ride is invaluableNadine Briggs 44:25yeah, we need to have resiliency is huge. The Resiliency is huge. You need to be able to work through these things and if they don't go your way. Yeah, you need to be able to find the silver linings on things.Hannah Choi 44:37Gold directed persistance gotta stick with it. Nadine Briggs 44:40You do, you do and it's all you got to train your brain to think that way. And so there's a lot of things we do to teach them how to do those exercises to get your brain in the right frame of mind around all of this. Yeah.Hannah Choi 44:54It's it's just, I just wish that I could give For every child, all of the things that they need, you know, I wish that every child could every parent could know about, you know, these kinds of support and get access to them. And it's wonderful to be able to do that. Nadine Briggs 45:12I agree, if you try to get the word out there as best you can, and you know, shout from the rooftops and hope that they hear you, you know, because it is so important, and it's life-changing stuff. And, you know, there should be a focus on academics. I know there is a big focus on academics, but this other stuff is just so so important, too. Yeah. And it's not enough to be smart. You need to have these other skills as well.Hannah Choi 45:33 I do think that there is more, more conversation about it these days. And like we were talking, before we got on about the pandemic has created more opportunities to talk about challenges that people have, and more people are more open to being flexible. So I guess that's one good benefit about side benefit of the pandemic, is allowing these conversations to happen more.Nadine Briggs 45:35Absolutely. I mean, you know, I tend to be more of an optimistic person, I look at the silver lining of things. And honestly, with the pandemic, we went online. Yeah. And had we not, I mean, we serve kids from, you know, 11 different states and get kids from Canada. Yeah. They make friends. Yeah, we have a kid in Florida, I was friends with the kid and Long Island. And, and you know, and that never would have happened before. And so you have to look at those things, as difficult as creating a whole new program online was, you know, when it worked in the end, I mean, there were some bumps, so we had to figure things out. But you got to look at the silver lining of things, no matter what you're faced with and focus your brain on the things that are going well, versus the things that don't go well.Hannah Choi 46:45And what a great attitude to go into learning social skills with, you know, you can look for the little tiny thing, little tiny win that you have that you know that you weren't able to do yesterday, I said hi to somebody, and yesterday, I couldn't even look at them.Nadine Briggs 46:58So yeah, exactly, exactly.Hannah Choi 47:02That's great. So what are you excited about or looking forward to in the field of social skills development for kids?Nadine Briggs 47:10I am really excited that in the social skills development, that there is a really big movement on teaching the resiliency piece of things. I think that's a really big missing element to it. But what it what it is, it's more with this kind of building the muscles in your mind that are focused on things that are going well, versus the things that are not going well. So it's kind of like if you're thinking if you're focusing on the woe is me all the time, though, that's the the firings in your brain that are going to they're going to solidify for you. If you're thinking about the things that go well, those are going to be the things that you bring that get the most strength, it's kind of like going to the gym and lifting weights, right? You, you want to lift your optimism weights and not your negative weight, like that has some has some weight. Yeah. And so we do that with kids all the time. And like if I hear from from a parent, so for example, I have this one kid whose parent will email me and say, Oh, my gosh, the change in my kid, I hear him when we carpool with other people making conversation now in the backseat with the kid, rather than just being quiet the whole ride. The next time I see that kid, I'll go, I heard you're a rock star on those carpooling trips, and that you're now making conversation with people where you didn't used to make conversation before. And I'm really impressed by that. So by saying that to him, he's all like, oh, wow, like, I, she's reinforcing what I'm doing. I'm really taking what she taught me and doing it, she sees me. And that encourages him to do it even more not to mention the fact that he's made a connection with that person. So it's all that kind of stuff. Like I'll say things to kids, like, I'm really impressed by you, or I like the way you think. People never get told they like the way they think. So there's little, there's little phrases and things like that, that that are, they're just embedded into the into how we interact with people. We do things with kids, we have these things called "I CAN" cans. And basically like I'll take like a Crystal Light container that has those those packets in it, you know, that plastic container when it's all gone. And we'll put like, colorful paper around it and just say "I Can" on it. And, and so those are a nice little tool for parents to use in their homes. It's probably from a little bit more for your younger kids than teenagers. But just you know, the things that you can do, like, you know, I can do this, like I know, I can get my homework done on time, or I can be a good friend of somebody who's sad. And when they see evidence of the things they're doing well, right, you put the little note, you can do this and you put it in the can. And it's like it's kind of like never giving an empty compliment to somebody. Yeah, you saying like, Oh, you're such a nice person. Now you're such a nice person. Because when I saw this kid struggling with how to play that game, you'd pull them aside and you explained it to him with a lot of patience. That that's a that's a loaded compliment where I'm telling this person exactly why I'm saying they're a good friend. I'm not just saying it because I want to say something Nice, I'm saying it because I mean it. And here's the evidence that I saw, that shows me what a good friend you are to that person. And so that that's the power of that sort of thing is like, you're not just, you're not just blown fluff at somebody, you do have an evidence based reason for saying what you're saying to them. And I think that's really powerful for them, because they can really latch on to that, and it doesn't feel like left to them, it feels really meaningful. And then you're gonna get more of the same from that person, because it was acknowledged in a really positive way.Hannah Choi 50:31 Right? That's so great. Well, I hope that continues to be used in in schools and different environments where kids are over the coming year.Nadine Briggs 50:44And I think that's the challenge schools are overwhelmed. So you say, oh, let's bring in you know, positive education and resiliency training and well being it that that's the challenge right now, I think, to the, to the people who are really interested in spreading the word about this stuff. That's, that's the challenge is that it almost needs to come from the children. And I think that's, that's programs like mine, where we're teaching it, and then they're showing other people the power of it, like a little army of Optimists out.Hannah Choi 51:15Well, that's something that I've talked about on the podcast before and just something that, you know, as a coach, I try, like, my, my ultimate goal is that my clients will go out and into the world and, you know, share what they've learned in their coaching sessions and, and help others with their own executive function, skill development. So it's the Yeah, same idea. And I'm sure that, you know, just like we as parents model things for our kids, our kids can model the model for their friends. Nadine Briggs 51:43So it's sometimes for their parents. Hannah Choi 51:45And yes, that's right. Yeah, right.Nadine Briggs 51:49I have a six year old who is who sometimes will, social coach his mom.Hannah Choi 51:54Great. I love it. Well, thank you so much. This has just been fascinating. Nadine Briggs 52:01I thank you for having me. Hannah Choi 52:02Yeah. Where can our listeners find out about you and your program is available? Worldwide? Sounds like so. Yeah, just share with share where people can find you.Nadine Briggs 52:13Yeah, simplysocialkids.com is the website. And usually we do as an intake for for new families so we can determine if the program is a good fit for their child or their teen or their young adult. And then we do free trials. So with they'll set them up for a free trial, they can take it for a spin. So they think of it and then if they're interested, they can enroll.Hannah Choi 52:30That's great. Oh, good. Well, best of luck to you. And, and I'm sure there's, like you said an army of kids out there that are spreading the spreading the good social skills that they've learned from you. Nadine Briggs 52:42Let's, let's hope so, that's the goal! Hannah Choi 52:46All right. Well, thanks again, for talking with me. I really appreciate it.Nadine Briggs 52:51Thanks for having me.Hannah Choi 52:54And that's our show for today. I really hope that you found something useful in my conversation with Nadine. And hopefully you learned something that will empower you or your kids to enrich your social lives. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen. If you are enjoying learning about these important topics that we cover in each episode of Focus Forward, please share our podcasts with all those new friends you're gonna make. And be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website. And if you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We'll let you know when new episodes drop, and you can easily find the resources that we share on each topic. Thanks for listening

Support based around Executive Function improvement promises a lot, but is there any evidence that you can actually improve your Executive Function skills? And if you can, what does the process look like and how can you truly measure you or your child's Executive Function improvement? In today's episode, we explore these questions and more with thought-leader Peg Dawson - an esteemed psychologist, expert in Executive Functions, and the co-author of the acclaimed book "Smart But Scattered" which she wrote with her colleague. Richard Guare, and has become essential readings for ADHD and Executive Function skill development.I had an incredible time talking with Peg and learning from her wisdom. I also know you'll find endless amounts of valuable insight that you can use from our conversation in your own life.Related ResourcesExecutive Skill Questionnaire-RevisedESQ-R Self-Report Assessment Tool -This is the tool that Peg and I discuss in this episode. You can take it here, free!Beyond BookSmart Reviews & Our Results - How Beyond BookSmart used the ESQ-RSmart But Scattered books by Peg Dawson, EdD and Richard GuareSmart But Scattered - The Smart But Scattered websiteHelping Children and Teens Strengthen Executive Skills To Reach Their Full Potential (Parent Webinar) - This is the video I mention towards the end of the episode. A fantastic resource for learning more about EF skills. Old Enough! - A Netflix show about Japanese toddlers who go out on errands.Contact us!Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.comIG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoachingTranscriptHannah Choi 00:04Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an executive function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. I heard from one of our listeners, Margy, who shared that she is really enjoying listening and would also like to learn a little bit more about executive function skills and deepen her understanding of how they impact us. Well, Margy will get her wish today, because for this episode, I got to have a conversation with Peg Dawson. Peg is an expert in the field of executive function skills, and the co-author of Smart but Scattered, which she wrote with her colleague Dick Guare. Smart but Scattered is one of the leading books on ADHD and executive function skills. I'll let her tell you more about herself and the work she does. But before I dive into her conversation, I wanted to share that you'll hear us mention the 11 executive function skills throughout the podcast. If you're not familiar with all of them, I thought it might be helpful if I did a quick review. But before I do that, I wanted to mention one other thing that you might find interesting and valuable. You can discover your own strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function skills by using the Executive Skills Questionnaire, which is a tool that Peg and Dick developed. At Beyond BookSmart we also use this tool to help our clients measure their own executive function skills before and after working with their coach for some time. You'll hear Peg and I discuss the findings which I have to say are pretty promising. And definitely give hope to those of us who are forgetful, disorganized, or inattentive. Check out the show notes to find the link to this questionnaire. Okay, so back to that review of executive function skills I told you I'd share. If you already know them, you are welcome to skip ahead about three minutes and jump straight to my conversation with Peg. Okay, so here we go. Executive function skills are the skills that we use to get through, or execute our days. These skills emerge and develop over the period of time from birth until about mid to late 20s. But like I just mentioned, it is possible to improve these skills beyond that age. I'm going to use Peg and Dick's list of executive function skills, which they have categorized into two groups, foundational skills, and advanced skills. If you'd like to learn even more about these skills, please check out the resources in the show notes for today's episode. Okay, so first up are the foundational skills that are the first to emerge as kids grow. We've got response inhibition. And this is just a fancy way of describing impulse control. You know, being able to patiently wait your turn in the grocery store and holding back when you really just want to bag the guy's groceries for him because he is just taking too long. All right, next up, we've got working memory. And our working memory is what helps us hold on to information and then use it later on. And emotional control or emotional regulation. And that's the ability to manage and respond to our emotions in ways that are appropriate for the situation. And sustained attention is being able to stay focused on something that you're doing, even if you're distracted or bored or tired. And task initiation is just a big word that means getting yourself going on something, getting started. And cognitive flexibility, which is the last of the foundational skills is also known as flexible thinking and that's just being able to think of new solutions or being okay with last minute changes to plans. Okay, so those are the foundational skills and next up the advanced skills. And according to Peg, these start to emerge in most kids around middle school, but they don't really get a good handle on them until much later. First up, we've got planning and prioritizing, and this is being able to figure out a good way to reach a goal or complete a task. And organization is well exactly what it sounds like. Time management is the ability to estimate how much time something will take and also figure out the best way to stay within set time limits. Goal directed persistence is basically just not giving up while you're working towards a goal. And metacognition is a very long word that means thinking about how we think. And this executive function skill helps us reflect on why we do what we do or don't do, and then use that reflection to come up with some ideas to help ourselves change. And the last EF skill which I love and Peg recently added to her list is stress tolerance and this is the ability to thrive in stressful situations and cope with change and uncertainty. Okay, so now that I've successfully used my ability to maintain attention to the task of reading that list, maybe you can use your working memory to remember some of these skills while you're listening to our conversation. And perhaps this episode will inspire you to use cognitive flexibility and metacognition to come up with some ideas for how you can have a positive impact on your own executive function skill development. Alright, this is getting out of hand. Okay, now on to the show. Hi, Peg. Thanks so much for joining me today. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners who don't know who you are?Peg Dawson 05:41Sure. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Peg Dawson. I worked as a school psychologist for many years in the public schools in Maine and New Hampshire. And then I, I went into a private practice with my colleague and ultimately my co author, guy named Dick Guare, Dr. Guare. And in that practice, we focused on kids and adults with learning and attention disorders. So I started working with kids with ADHD in particular a whole lot more once I left the public schools and started working in a clinic setting. And as I worked with that population, I pretty quickly realized that the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic criteria for ADHD which is problems with attention or problems, or hyperactivity, impulsivity, or both, really didn't begin to describe the problems. I said, these kids having a huge problems with time management and planning and organization and those kinds of things. And I remember talking to my colleague Dick about at the time, he and I both did our doctoral work at the University of Virginia though we were there at different times. But he went on to do a postdoc in neuro psychology at Children's Hospital in Boston. So as I was describing these issues, these are, those are executive skills. So this is the late 80s, early 90s. And people were not using that term much in those days. So he and I decided we really wanted to understand these skills better, what are they? How do they develop? What's going on in the brain? How do they impact school performance? And of course, most importantly, how do you help kids with weak executive skills become more successful students. So that's what led to our writing. We wrote a book for professionals first, and then realized there was a huge role for parents in all this. So that's what led us to write Smart, but Scattered and more recently Smart, but Scattered Teens. We've written a book for adults as well called the Smart but Scattered Guide to Success. And we wrote a book on coaching quite a few years ago now, which we're just now revising, the revision should probably come out next year, I would guess. So that's my domain. And in more recent years, I've diminished, I've minimized my private practice in my clinical work and to emphasize doing webinars and trainings and professional development. So I work for some professional development companies, but I also get invited by schools to come in and talk with teachers about executive skills. And I teach an online coaching seminar every year, which attracts people from all over the world, actually. So. So that's, that's sort of where I ended up mostly during professional development training. That all started from working with kids with ADHD with executive so talented.Hannah Choi 08:18I love that. I love that trajectory. How wonderful. And I'm sure that there are just so many people in your past that have been so positively affected by all the work that you've done.Peg Dawson 08:28Yeah, no, I like to think so. I used to when I was a school psychologist, my husband used to tease me about trying to save the world one child at a time. I think he was onto something. Once I once I wrote books and realized so I can reach lots of kids by reaching their parents. So yeah, it feels like the work I've done has has stretched beyond saving the world one kid at a time.Hannah Choi 08:53Well, I have to say I just I had heard about your book, but I hadn't, I hadn't read it. And I am I am in the middle of it right now. And I my kids are 10 and 13 now and I sure wish that i i am using I am using it and going to use it and I'm a coach, so I know a lot of the strategies anyway but I just I love how you presented everything and it just it it I felt like it gave me a lot of permission as a parent to be okay with my own executive function challenges my own those skills that I am not so great at and it was really great to read that part. So if there's any parents listening right now and you feel like you're struggling with your own executive skill challenges, I recommend Peg's book because it really has made me feel better and like I said, my kids are a little bit older. And I'm still it's still getting benefit from it. So although I think my teenager could have also, like could have like co authored the book with you. She's got she's got incredible executive skills. I don't really understand it. Oh, yeah, it's, it's but you know, what's interesting is that I was looking at how you break them down into foundational skills and advanced skills. And, and you're right, like she's really got the foundational skills down. And I was just telling my husband the other day before I, before I learned about how you broke them down into the two categories, and I was telling him like, well, she still struggles with like metacognition and cognitive flexibility. And I'm like, oh, that's why, because they just haven't developed yet. So,Peg Dawson 10:31yeah, yeah, it's, it's really reaffirming to hear that. Again, we used to talk about all 11 skills. And we talked about them roughly in the order in which we think they emerged developmentally and then it's, it finally dawned on me. Now, there's a distinct difference between those advanced skills and those foundational skills. And I just find it particularly when I'm talking with, with parents, and teachers of middle school kids, in particular, to tell them, these skills are just emerging at this age. So let's understand that if you've got a kid who's struggling with planning, or organization and time management, that is totally age appropriate. Because so many people have this sort of expectation that kids are going to be proficient at that age, and they're just not soHannah Choi 11:16yeah, I just just in the most recent podcast episode that we released, a, it was a conversation that I had between the mom of one of my clients, just me, and, and she, when I met her, she was in fourth grade, and now she's in eighth grade. And, and I've been working with her the whole time. And it's really neat to see, to see those executive skills emerging as the time has, has gone on. And also, you know, like, just maturity and all that, that goes hand in hand with all of that. And, and just yesterday, she's really, really demo- In our session yesterday, she really demonstrated that, that she's really moving into the some of the more advanced, advanced skills us it's exciting to see.Peg Dawson 12:00Yeah that's really gratifying to see. And, you know, for for kids with ADHD, again, I'm always preaching patients to parents. I don't know how many both kids themselves as young adults, but also parents of kids with ADHD, when they reached young adulthood, you said, you said, you know, wasn't till their their mid 20s. And it felt like this light went off or the switch changed or something. And so that's why I'm always saying you can't judge your child at 14 and make assumptions or predictions or what they're going to be like, at 24, 25. Because there are radical changes that occur in that time. And I think it gives some parents...Hannah Choi 12:43Yeah, right. I was just going to say like, what do you what do you say to someone who feels like, their child is never going to, you know, get to the point where they can do X, Y, and Z? You know, how do you how do you support parents who feel like, they're not changing fast enough? Or they're not, you know, becoming what they want them to be fast? Yeah,Peg Dawson 13:02yeah. Well, one of the things I say over and over again, is it progresses measured in years and not months with these kids. And yeah, and in fact, I had a school counselor who actually printed that cut it, printed it out, framed it put it on the wall in her office, because so many parents, middle school counselor, of course, so many parents coming in saying Why can't my kid do this, that or the other thing? And so I sometimes say to think back a year ago, can you see progress since a year ago? Because that's a more reasonable timeframe than to look at the child's six weeks ago. And and assume that they're not moving fast enough? Because we're talking about these are habits. I mean, I call executive skills, habits of mind, but we know it takes a long time to acquire a habit. And that's under normal conditions when the brain is not still developing. So so in a developing brain on top of that, and no wonder it takes time.Hannah Choi 14:05Yeah, no wonder that the progress is measured in years, not months. Reminds me of the other saying like progress, not perfection, right? We're just, we nobody's no one, even us adults, none of us are perfect in our executive function skills. Right? I'm sure that you, you have some that you don't feel confident about. And I do so.Peg Dawson 14:24Absolutely. And I do occasionally I do presentations for, for adults, or for companies in particular. In fact, my son works in North Carolina, and he's working in an organization that consults to textile co ops. And he asked me to come in and talk about executive skills last week, and I mean, it was simultaneously translated into Spanish because half the people were there were Guatemalan immigrants. And the other half are native English speakers, but everyone just gave them the questionnaire I said, talk about your strengths. How does that help you in the job? Talk about one of your challenges. How does that get in the way? And I haven't think a little about So what could you do to get better at it. But I've done this a couple of times my son, he's worked for a couple of different companies. And each time he reports afterwards, that people just feel much more comfortable talking about the things they struggle with. And it absolutely is true. And I have to say, this is where the work Dick and I did really opened our eyes. Because when we started writing and talking about executive skills, I think the general assumption was once you reach adulthood, your skills are should be all evenly and well developed across the board. As soon as we developed our questionnaire and started giving it out to audiences, we realized no, that's not true. In fact, we could have just looked at ourselves. And so I, I just, again, I find people sort of relaxed when they realize Oh, you mean, I'm not supposed to be perfect that anything was that's more like the exception than the rule. So yeah,Hannah Choi 15:59yeah, definitely. So the questionnaire that you're talking about? Could you explain a little bit about that? It's in your I know, it's in your book. And I know, we use it here at Beyond BookSmart to, to have our clients kind of check in with their own executive skill development. So can you tell us a little bit more about that.Peg Dawson 16:16So there are a bunch of different versions out there. There are versions for adults versions for parents and teachers to pull out on kids and we have versions for kids to go out. And so the original version, the one that's used the most identifies it had lists three items for executive skill and you basically - It's a very simple rating scale to take because if you're doing it by hand, you fill out the the items, you figure out what's the total score for each and you look at your high scores, those are your strengths, you look at your low scores, and those your weaknesses. The ESQ-R, which is the version that Beyond BookSmart uses, is a shortened version, it has 25 items, but they've been subjected to psychometric analysis to make them the best measures they can be. And from that, although we talked about 11 different skills, it really ends up that there are five primary skill sets that are all our items sort of fall into. And they think I can just get in them quickly. It's it's plan management, time management, organization, behavior regulation, and emotion regulation. And so this is now a survey which Beyond BookSmart uses, you can also find it on our website, you can actually take the questionnaire on our website, if you want to, which is smartbutscatteredkids.com. And we developed in part because we were hoping people would use it as a research instrument. I mean, we're using it now both mostly to educate people and to help them learn about themselves and learn about their kids with their students. But we really thought if we had something was a little more psychometrically sound, then it could be used for research purposes. And that's what started happening in part because it's free. Yeah, and I get I get letters from people in India and people in Malaysia asking to use it, and can they translate it into their language? And so it's now gotten a lot of use. And I think, and with some interesting results, in fact, the Beyond BookSmart results were as interesting as, as anything I've seen, in part because what Beyond BookSmart did was they look use it as a pretest and a post test. So before kids started coaching, and then after they'd been coaching for 16 weeks, to look to see if there were differences did any of their those five domains I described earlier, did they get stronger, and they found some really encouraging results starting with elementary aged kids. And so they broke it down into elementary, middle high school, college and adults. And across the board, they found some changes with some of the skills not all of them, but they would be the skills you would expect to see change through coaching. So it's Plan Management and time management in particular, as well as the composite score, the total score changes as well. But the other interesting thing is because I was just looking at the the report before we went on this podcast, I was just looking at it again. And what I found was that this this strongest the biggest impact is with college students and adults.Hannah Choi 19:29I saw that too.Peg Dawson 19:30So here's what I find this so encouraging, because people will say to me often I'm an adult, is it too late? No, it's not too late. And I've just recently started, I've been coaching and I haven't coached for years, but I've been coaching a couple of adults with different issues. And it's just it's been so much fun to see how quickly they can sort of grasp your ideas and your strategies and put them into effect and we're report back to you. I know it's fun to coach kids. But it's really those of us who coach adults find it to be really gratifying.Hannah Choi 20:08Yeah, I might Skyla my, my now eighth grader, she's my only school-aged client and all of my others are college and adults. So I get the satisfaction of working with college and adult students, it's really fun. That's really fun. Yeah, and a lot of them have sought out coaching on their own. So they're more more motivated, which actually makes me think of something, if you if a little bit shifting gears, but just had this idea, if so, when when when clients come to someone like me that, you know, mostly works with college and adult, they've sought it out themselves, they're not resistant to it, because they, they're oftentimes they're paying for it too. Or they're, you know, they're investing their own time and their own, you know, resources into it. But some of these kids come in reluctantly, and feel pretty frustrated on, like having to work on their executive skills. And I'm sure you've had a lot of experience with kids who are not interested in making any change, right? What do you like? How do you support kids like that? And how do you support the parents of those kids?Peg Dawson 21:18So our coaching process, and we felt this from the start, I mean, it's been it's evolved over the years. But right from the start, we felt like this has to be a voluntary process. This is not something where you can coerce a kid into to do I mean, you might be able to make a kid go see a tutor. And since the tutor is teaching academic subjects, maybe the kid will realize this will benefit me. Because it's clear, you know, I need help an algebra, here's the help, see, I do better on my tests, one of their executive skills issues involved, they tend to be not as clear cut to kids anyway. And they don't necessarily make a direct connection between my problems getting started on tasks, and what I might do with a coach. And so kids tend to, so we, early on, we said, we have to sort those out. And, and if you're looking to coach a kid, step one is to make sure they're voluntarily participating. Now, we have refined that over the years in that we found ways to persuade kids sometimes that coaching might be helpful, and our thought is well, and good coaches are able to do this with many kids that are reluctant kid, if they're willing to give it a shot for a few weeks, then they see the benefit. And then they're on board.Hannah Choi 22:44Yeah. And so soon as you develop that good rapport with them exactly. Get their buy in. Yeah.Peg Dawson 22:49And that's something that I think Beyond BookSmart is particularly good at, I think that's an emphasis in in how your your coaches work. And maybe how your training goes is, first of all, you try to match the kid with a coach that you think would be compatible. And and then you work at that relationship. And you recognize that that relationship is we especially with reluctant kids is going to be the key. If that relationship clicks, it'll work. If it doesn't click, it won't work. We've started also just in the last couple of years, putting a greater emphasis on training our coaches to use motivational interviewing techniques. And those are in motivational interviewing is just what it says interviewing in a way to help the individual feel motivated to want to change. And, and so once you incorporate that into the coaching process, then that to helps you sort out who's a good candidate for coaching and who's not. Because as you go through that motivational interviewing process, if the kid keeps putting up roadblocks, and you can't figure out how to get them to start taking down the roadblocks, then it's really probably a waste of time for for the kid and a waste of money for for the parent. And so I think and again, you probably do this to be on Bookstart we're, we're fairly, we recommend being fairly honest with parents upfront, both to try to assess them that I remember a few years ago, I had an eighth grader come in to see me and the parents thought he wasn't doing as well in school as they thought he should be. And so they thought they came in to see whether I could recommend a coach for them. And my first question was, does your kid want to work with a coach? Oh, no, no, he's dead set against it. I talked to the kid and I found out what his goals were. He had some goals so I sort of began the coaching process within like, what grades would you like to be earning? What do you think you need to do differently to earn those grades? And what we ended up and then Since I knew he didn't want to work with a coach, I said, So you think you need to bring your grades up? I've got a process for that. But you probably can't do it alone, you're gonna need help from someone so your mom could help you study for tests, or he was identified, he had a resource from teacher or your researcher and teacher could have been studied, as well with resource from teacher really didn't want the mom involved at all. So I contacted the resource from teachers that got this great template for studying for tests. Are you willing to do this with this kid? And she said, Sure, absolutely. So the deal I made with the kid was that if he brought his grades up to the level he wanted them to be, and it was A/Bs and he was capable of that. At the first marking period, at the first progress report, we would look at his grades. And if he had met his goal, I would not make recommended, I would not give the parents name, but coach. And then at the end of the marking period, again, if his grades were one, I still wouldn't get the parents name coach. I mean, the ironic thing was, the resource room teacher was his coach. And that was basically what she was doing. But in his mind, the coach was someone that you'd have to meet outside someone else on his own time as a stranger. So that's, you know, again, sometimes we can make deals with kids, too, to have that, but it won't last over time, if they're really not invested in the deals will work for a short period of time, but they won't work.Hannah Choi 26:22Right? It reminds me the idea of just meeting people where they are and and that you can't, you know, what does that like leading a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And it just, I was thinking in your book, I loved how you how you talked about how, instead of trying to impose these things on the kids than it just set the situation up for them to find some success. And, and for you to as the parent to find some success, and just kind of meeting the kid, where are the, where are they where they are at that time. And I think just as humans, that works really well for all of us, even adults. So yeah,Peg Dawson 27:03Yeah, I'm always struck by how so every year I, I trained? Well, I have this past year and 50 people sign up for my coaching seminar, probably about 25 of them were were real, invested participants. And and so they did all the homework. And they did, they coached a kid and they gave me feedback. And I'm always struck by for some of these, and many of the people taking my coaching class are teachers. So they're used to being in the classroom, and they're used to being in charge and telling kids what to do. And when the light bulb goes off, and they say, well, it works a whole lot better when the kid is the one who's making the goal and the kid is one is deciding how they're gonna, strategy they're gonna use. So it's always, but it feels like we don't do that with kids enough, we don't empower them to understand that they can change and that they can take control. And they can be effective.Hannah Choi 28:00Yeah, somewhat related, but just the idea of empowering kids. I teach sewing lessons. And some of the parents I talked to are surprised to find out that the kids are going to use real sewing machines and real needles and real irons. And you know, they could get poked, and they got to be really careful. And I don't know if it's this day and age, but I do find that it seems like parents are afraid and like they want to protect their kids. So it often ends up that the kids are not being challenged with opportunities to learn these real skills.Peg Dawson 28:33Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I've, my son sent me this amazing map of years ago that was printed in some British magazine newspaper, which showed three or four generations of one family and in England, somewhere in the middle of England. And it basically showed it drew a circle around the area in which each generation at the age of seven was allowed to travel on their own. And it went from this giant space, like seven miles for the grandfather, whereas the current generation, it was this tiny little space. Okay, you can walk across the street. Yeah, across the street. Yeah, we definitely. And I actually blame the fact that there's so much media attention anytime something goes wrong. It's that and so we all have this catastrophe in our head that we think is just waiting to happen to our kids.Hannah Choi 29:30And it's cognitive distortion has a powerful grip on on our brains when we are exposed to so much media. My son is actually walking home from school by himself today for the first time. Three quarters of a mile, he's 10 is three quarters of a mile. He's in fourth grade. He's got a great sense of direction, so I know he'll be fine. SoPeg Dawson 29:50I have my, my younger son lives in Japan and they have a son, who's seven and starting at age six When he was in first grade, he switched from a international school to a Japanese school. Starting in first grade, he, they, they shaped it gradually over time. But he now walks to the train station takes the train gets off, one train gets on another one gets to the school, takes a bus to the school, he does that all independently. And we visit. We've been in Japan several times. And it's amazing, you know, seven o'clock at night, and you see these tiny little kids on the subway because they've gone to after-school after school. Yeah. By themselves. So it's suchHannah Choi 30:33If you did that here someone would call the cops on you. Yeah.Peg Dawson 30:36It's such a cultural influence. Yeah, actually an executive skill development. You know, among other things, it's what we allow kids to explore, and to experience because executive skills don't have to be explicitly taught, if we give kids the opportunity to learn them, as they interact with their world in their environment.Hannah Choi 30:59Yeah, I spend. So my my client Skyla. You know, over four years, many of our sessions were just us talking, and me, modeling, you know, modeling cognitive flexibility or modeling, how I was going to plan my day. And I never said, this is how I'm going to do it, this is how you should do it. And I just hoped that, you know, the, that, that what I was trying to teach her was getting through, and it takes a long time, but you're truly meeting them where they are, when you do it that way, you know, you're not forcing anything on them. Yeah, and that's what I love about, about how executive skills can be taught to anyone in with any, by any means, you know, like for kids, it makes sense, okay, like, Let's practice some skills with schoolwork. Because that's the work that you do that is, you know, how you what you do to get through your day, you know, you do schoolwork. And then so for adults, you know, you can you know, their job or their managing their home or something. And I just I love that. I love that about it.Peg Dawson 32:09Yeah, I also think that when we explicitly label the skills for kids or for adults, that can actually speed up the learning process. So I get one of the women I'm one of the people I'm coaching now is a woman very bright in her 40s I think who she's had some medical issues. So she's out of work at the moment, trying to work her way back into work, grew up with an attention disorder, now went to an Ivy League college obviously worked really hard, but she ended up with this residual sense of she can't do things as well as other people can. And so when we meet, whenever I can, I point out that, you know, that's metacognition and that is one of your strengths. In fact, that's probably what got you to the level you're at in your job is that she just needs to hear that because she just thinks of herself as being terrible task initiation, terrible a time management, terrible a planning, saying, Yeah, but let's look at possibility. Let's look at metacognition. SoHannah Choi 33:08yeah, yeah. I that always makes me think it means I think in every conversation that I've had for this podcast, that talk, the idea of confidence has come up, and how working on executive skills really can boost your confidence. And for her, hearing that about her metacognition probably had a positive impact on her on the other areas that she feels like she's weak in. Right,Peg Dawson 33:34right. Yeah, I think it did is if you're good at metacognition, you can get planning eventually. Is such a huge component of metacognition and planning. So, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Hannah Choi 33:46So that makes me think about this idea of, like, you know, just going back to parents in their own kids. And I feel like so much of the information out there articles that you read, and, you know, knowledge that's out there is for kids, and executive skill development, because of course, kids, kids frontal lobes are still developing, you know, we just, they just, they're not there yet. But, you know, just because, like you said before, just because we're adult adults doesn't mean our, you know, we're like, perfect and everything. So for parents that have areas that they struggle with, like, do you recommend that they work on their own along with their children's executive skill development? I've had some parents do that very effectively. And both parents was sort of the parent will share the profile with the kid. And whether it's a, they're struggling with the same executive skill or a different one. If they both agree, they're going to tackle whatever their challenges then the kid feels like, they're not the only one, you know, putting in all the work here. And several years ago, I saw a kid from the UK. And I had met the coach who was working with him at the time in the UK, but they spent their summers in Maine. And so he arranged, they arranged for the kid to come and be evaluated by me. He was 14. So I had him take the executive skills questionnaire. And he said, have you given this to my dad? Because the dad was the one who brought up? And I said, No, I said, Oh, I want my dad to take this. And so that ended up being a great conversation when I had, at the end of the session brought the data and then they could talk about because the kid and if you ask any kid, they can probably tell you, once they understand exactly what the dad strengths and weaknesses are, oh, yeah, but I do have, you know, a piece of advice that I give. And when I first started giving this to parents, or anybody in my workshops, I thought it was kind of whimsical, I thought, well, it's worth a shot. I don't know whether this will work or not, but I'll throw it out there. And so when I started building into my workshops, is when I consider the perfect intervention for executive skills. And this really helps adults who are dealing with their own executive skill challenges, because I again, I get that question from parents all the time, "I have the same issues. You know, I'm not consistent. I can't, I can't maintain an intervention over time. So what can I do?" So here's the perfect intervention. The perfect interventions for executive skill development, and there are two pieces to it is one that takes no more than five or 10 minutes a day, and that you're willing to do forever. So those two, okay, those two go hand in hand, if it took more than five or 10 minutes today, you couldn't keep it up. And I can guarantee you it won't take forever. But I can also guarantee you, it'll take longer than you think it should. But that doesn't mean you double the amount of time. No, it really. And so once I started talking about that, then I had all these parents sharing who they are, you know, I put in place a getting ready for school routine with my kid on the spectrum. I started in first grade. He's now in seventh grade. He's following that routine completely independently. It took six years, but he's there. And then I thought about how I got my own. So I have a son with ADHD, who's he's now in his 40s. But I thought about how I got him through high school. And that was every day when he came home from school, I asked them two questions, what do you have to do when you're going to do it? It was a five minute conversation. And as an adult. That's exactly what I ask my son every day, he still tells me that's how he basically plans his day, what do I have to do when will I do it? And so it really, if you if you're willing to play the long game, and you're willing to be patient, so now we're going back to patients again, then putting in place an intervention that you consistently follow? Five minutes a day for as long as it takes. It pays off. It really does. It reminds me of I'm I'm also reading at the same time, Atomic Habits by James Clear, and he is he says, you know, if you just like Do 1% every day, when you're eventually just gonna get better at it. Yeah. So yeah. Reminds me of that. Yeah, it doesn't have to be some grand, huge overhaul. And in fact, we you know, if you do the grand, huge overhaul, it's not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. It might look pretty for a day but and then you're gonna feel bad about yourself. So not being able to do it.Peg Dawson 38:27I mean, looking back on my own sons who neither were a great students in middle school in high school. With each them, I put in one relatively elaborate system to get them to change, you know, it's like offering them rewards for oh, I remember my younger son was starting his homework before nine o'clock at night, and not complaining about it. And if he could go for six weeks, and I gave him a point for each one of those, and we could go for six weeks, if he had this many points, and he could buy the video game he wanted. That worked really well. I could never redo it, though. I remember when he was like a junior in high school, I said, I said, Can we work out a system where you know, you can earn something you want? I mean, you said, Mom, I gotta want to do it myself. I mean, that just basically. So can you say that I had to back off. You're saying you can't force me. I gotta want to do it myself. So yeah, yeah.Hannah Choi 39:29Well, that's great that he, I mean, that shows right, his metacognition.Peg Dawson 39:34Yeah, absolutely. And he knew what worked and what didn't work for him.Hannah Choi 39:37Do you have any questions for me?Peg Dawson 39:39So how long have you been coaching?Hannah Choi 39:41I started coaching in 2017 with Beyond BookSmart. Yep. And I had like a kind of a similar job before. I worked at a community college and the Office for Students with Disabilities and I helped kids take advantage of the services that they were that were, you know that were or given to them for whatever accommodations that they needed. So that's where I discovered my love for working with college kids.Peg Dawson 40:05Right, right. Yep. And so over the years since you started coaching, what? How has that practice evolved for? You mean? What is?Hannah Choi 40:19That's such a great question. And I know exactly how it has evolved, I have learned to trust the process. And I have learned to trust my relationship with the client. And that, and that if they trust me, and if I just relax and let go and let it happen naturally, that's where we're going to have the most success. And I remember when I first started coaching, feeling like, I put this pressure on myself to like, you know, teach a new, new strategy in each session, and you know, and like, have some kind of evidence of, you know, of improvement. And now I realize, looking back on it, like I was looking for really grand evidence, and all I needed was these little tiny, tiny shifts that are actually the nuggets of gold that you're looking for. And that's when you know, okay, now I can maybe push a little harder and ask for something else. And I think I was just expecting it to go faster, even though I had learned and I knew for my own kids and for myself, that, that it takes a really long time. And that it's not like a It's not like a switch that happens. So I would say like, for me, mostly, that's what I've learned, which has been good for my mental health, because I used to really put a lot of pressure on myself with my clients. If I didn't feel like my clients were making enough progress quickly enough. And, and so I'm much more relaxed now as a coach, and I think I'm a better coach. Right?Peg Dawson 42:02Yeah. I mean, that was the one of the dangers of wanting to see that kind of progress in whoever you're coaching is that that person feels that that pressure as well.Hannah Choi 42:15They pick up on it. In my experience, that's when they start lying. Did you follow your plan? They said no, yeah. No they didn't. They just didn't want to make you feel bad. Yeah, that's right. I shouldn't admit this. But one of my first clients, he lied to me and his parents for an entire semester that he was doing well in school. Yeah. He got a D and one class, but the rest he was failing. So it was Yeah, yeah, you've really you. You have to suss it out. Yeah. And a lot of that comes down to just trust.Peg Dawson 42:56I think one of the coaches that I trained in that I get together with frequently via zoom, and she says, she, one of the things she makes clear to kids is this is a no blame zone and a no shame zone. So yeah, if you communicate that in a way that the kid trusts that, that you're honest about that, then they're going to be able to come in and say, Yeah, I was intending to do that. But andHannah Choi 43:19so that's what I started doing. I think probably around the time that that that happened with that student, I started telling every time for the first few few sessions, just to remind them that this is a judgment-free zone. And I And if I ask a question, it comes out of completely out of curiosity. No judgment. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no judgement at all. Yeah. And it's hard. I think, like, inside, right, we just naturally judge people, we have to for survival. You know, it's like a thing that we've just evolutionary, like, have done like, for 1000s of years. And I think that it's, you just like, we know, internally, we're judging people, whether we want to or not, that bias is just there. And so we know that we are doing that. So we kind of might assume someone else is doing it. And so it's hard. It's hard to learn to trust someone that you can really be honest with them. Especially like if there's an age difference, right. Oh, like, are you just another parent? Or can I actually truly just not that they can't trust their parents? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's just so important. And I guess with any relationship, right? Any relationship that you develop with anybody is developing that trust. Cool, well, what if you could choose one thing for people to take away from all the work that you've done over the course of your, your career? What would it be? If it's possible to choose one?Peg Dawson 44:55But I guess the message I want people to understand it. And this may be more for teachers and parents, but I think there's some overlap there is that executive skills are the skills that support learning. And if we don't peel away the the surface learning to understand the skills that require that are required to get there, then we're missing the opportunity to help kids understand the learning process better. And so that combined with it takes time progress is measured. Yeah those are the two things.Hannah Choi 45:40And that's, that's a really hard, it's, it's hard, I think. I mean, I would, if I could guess I bet that's that, the biggest part that's hard for people is that making any kind of change, I mean, if you even if you're just exercising, like I'm training for a half marathon right now, and it takes I was take a break in between races, and he's take so long to get back into it. And, and even though I know, like, I know, because I've done it before I've done it so many times before I know I'm gonna get there is still so hard to just relax and say, It's okay, Hannah, it's gonna happen, you're gonna be able to run 13.1 miles. But it's hard to trust that. And so especially when it's your kids, you just want them to be successful in the world, and you don't have to worry about them, and you don't want to have to friction with them. And you just want them to be what be themselves in, you know, in in a successful way. And it's so hard to, to just trust that eventually that'll happen.Peg Dawson 46:44And I think it's also made harder by the fact that unfortunately, school emphasizes getting things right. As opposed to getting things. We're not focusing on learning. We're, we're focusing on passing tests, and not making mistakes. And we all know, that's not the way you learn, you learn from your mistakes. And so, and I, my guess, is if we've looked at all the education systems out there, the ones where, where kids are at the top in terms of how they're acquiring academic skills, it's those where that's what teachers are emphasizing then. So for instance, I'm sure in Japanese schools, they might teach math by giving kids a tough math problem to do that, just at the limits of their understanding of them. They put them together in a group and the kids say, Okay, now solve this problem. And they check in on them periodically, but there's no stress that you got to get it right. It's, can you figure out the process? And it's just, I think that's one of my biggest issues with how American education and it's not just American education and a lot of education system,Hannah Choi 47:55if that's what you know, because yeah, yeah, my, my kids are both going through standardized testing right now, like today, as we speak, and it's really stressful for them. And they're both good students, and they don't find school difficult. But the the, the action of being tested, is stressful, especially for my son, he is very concerned about getting it right. And I've, we've told him so many times, you know, we don't care, we you know, we don't if it's if it's stressful for you, we don't want it to be stressful for you, you just go in and do your best. And, you know, it's hard for him. And that just just kills me to, to see them going through that. So do you have anything that you're excited about that you'd like to share with everyone?Peg Dawson 48:41No, I just, I guess, I mean, I'm 72 years old. So the question is, when am I going to retire? My husband's already retired. So he keeps talking to me about something, when are you going to retire? And and I guess, the fact that I'm still working just tells you that I'm excited about what I'm doing, because I don't need to be working. I mean, I am planning for retirement, and I am trying to think about so how, how can what I've done continue without me so that when people write and say, Can you do this? I say no, I'm retired now.Hannah Choi 49:19But I have this fabulous person who can do it for me. So yeah, yeah. Well, what a legacy you're you'll you'll leave when you are able to transition into that period of your life. So and where can our listeners find you and your work?Peg Dawson 49:34So we have a website smartbutscatteredkids.com. And so there are a number of resources on that website, as well as links to some trainings I've done. There's a parent, a one hour, maybe a little over that. When our parent presentation that I do that was recorded when I was in San Diego last year, which they didn't.Hannah Choi 49:57I watched that! I thought it was GREAT. I loved it! Peg Dawson 50:00Didn't they do a nice job with editing it?Hannah Choi 50:02They really did. It was so good. It was classy classy production. And you looked great. And you sounded great. It was really interesting. Peg Dawson 50:13And in fact, if possible, I'd like to put a link from my website to Beyond BookSmart for this interview, so that because that's another way that people could could discover.Hannah Choi 50:25Yeah, for our listeners, I'll put everything. I'll put everything in the show notes. So you can find Peg and everything that she's done, and definitely watch that presentation that she's talking about. Thanks. High quality good stuff. Great. All right. Well, thank you so much.Peg Dawson 50:40Thank you. This was fun.Hannah Choi 50:44And that's our show for today. I really hope you found something useful in my conversation with Peg. And I hope that you learned something that you didn't know about executive function skills. I'm truly so glad you're here and that you took time out of your day to listen, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode on our website and subscribe to the podcast at beyond booksmart.com/podcast. We send out an email after every episode with links to resources and tools we mentioned. And if you have a minute, please help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends. Thanks for listening!