Focus Forward: An Executive Function Podcast Ep 32: College Admissions Made Simple: An Executive Function Approach to Success in College
Applying for college can feel like a monumental, overwhelming task - and that’s because it is! There are so many deadlines, details, and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic Executive Function skills - but does it have to be? And then, once you get there, how do you set yourself up for success as a college student with EF challenges? I wondered how I could use the platform of Focus Forward to help those of you out there find some resources and strategies to make applying and going to college a little easier. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at McMillan Education, an organization whose goal is to help make the process of applying to college a little easier and less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at McMillan came to my rescue! We met on a sunny morning just last week to have a chat about all things college - both before and after acceptance. Keep listening to learn how you can make the most of this next chapter and if your kiddos are too young to be thinking about college, tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It’ll be here waiting for you!
In the meantime, here are some show notes related to the episode:
Guide to Colleges for Students with Learning Differences (check your local library or school counseling office)
McMillan Education
https://www.mcmillaneducation.com/
WISE Advice on Educational Planning - McMillan’s Podcast
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2134583
Students with Disabilities Preparing for Postsecondary Education:
Know Your Rights and Responsibilities
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/transition.html
Self-Advocacy for College Students
https://www.ldonline.org/ld-topics/self-esteem-stress-management/self-advocacy-college-students
7 Ways to Support Your Teen During the College Application Process
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/7-ways-support-your-teen-during-college-application-ellis-mba-phd/
Contact Us!
Reach out to us at podcast@beyondbooksmart.com
IG/FB/TikTok @beyondbooksmartcoaching
Transcript
Hannah Choi 00:04
Hi everyone and welcome to Focus Forward, an Executive Function Podcast where we explore the challenges and celebrate the wins you'll experience as you change your life through working on improving your executive function skills. I'm your host, Hannah Choi. So I was talking with my children's former second grade teacher recently and she was telling a funny story about how the stress of applying to college was affecting her and her daughter, who is a senior in high school. Another friend of mine, Bonnie, who you might know from my tip of the day about body doubling on Instagram. She shared with me that she was wondering how she could support her son, who is a junior in high school in the college search and application process without actually doing the work for him. There are so many deadlines and details and steps that could be missed even by someone with fantastic EF skills, throw in a neurodivergent brain and it is bound to be an extremely challenging experience. But does it have to be? I wondered how we here at Focus Forward could help my friend and my children's teacher find some resources and strategies to set their kids up for success during the stressful time. Luckily, my colleague at Beyond BookSmart knew someone at Mcmillan Education, which is an organization that does exactly that - make the process of applying to college a little easier and a little less stressful for everyone. Rachel Leja, an educational consultant at Mcmillian. Excuse me, Mcmillan came to my rescue. We met on a Sunday morning just last week to have a chat about all things college, both before and after acceptance. So keep listening to learn. And if your kiddos are too young for this info at this time, just tuck this episode away in your back pocket for the future. It'll be here waiting for you. Or listen anyway, just because you're a Focus Forward super fan. I'm just kidding. But speaking of our amazing fans, if you listen to us on Spotify or Apple podcasts, could you please do me a big huge favor and give us a five star rating, we will love you forever for it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And don't forget to reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com If you have any topic ideas that you'd like us to cover. Okay, now on to the show. Well, hi, Rachel, thanks so much for joining me today.
Rachel Leja 02:33
Hi, Hannah. It's nice to be here.
Hannah Choi 02:35
Yeah, I'm so excited to to talk about this because my kids, my daughter is in ninth grade. So this is going to be something that is coming up for us. So it's good to kind of figure things out, things have changed since I went to school some number of years ago, we won't count that. And so would you introduce yourself and explain why you are here and what your background is?
Rachel Leja 03:05
Sure. So my name is Rachel Leja and I work for Mcmillan Education. We are an educational consulting firm out of Boston. And I work with students that have learning disabilities or neurodivergence of some type. And my background is in special education teaching. I started my career at the Landmark School in Beverly, Massachusetts, where I fell in love with all things executive functioning. And I took what I learned there, and I transitioned to a therapeutic day school in Connecticut, where I imparted a lot of that wisdom and honed a lot of that work, especially with students as they were applying to colleges. And after I left the teaching world, I've joined Mcmillan and much of my work has been with students. I work with school aged students as well for school placement, but I do a lot of college work. And a lot of my work revolves around students that have a neurodivergence, and specifically some executive functioning deficits. So a lot of my work is focused on helping them manage the process and also bolster those skills during that time.
Hannah Choi 04:06
So you have you have such a great background for that you have like the the teaching sort of student support side and the kind of knowledge about the whole application process. So it's like, yeah, really great combination.
Rachel Leja 04:17
Sort of a convergence of all of my worlds.
Hannah Choi 04:19
Yeah, that's really neat. I love that. Cool. Great. So could you tell me a little bit about McMillan and maybe how like, just how you guys approach supporting kids when they're applying to school? Sure. So,
Rachel Leja 04:36
Macmillan education, like I said, we are located out of Boston, but we have consultants kind of all over. I'm actually in Connecticut. We have about 18 or 20 consultants that work with all types of different students and learners. We have folks that specialize in things like international placement or athletic recruiting. And like I said, I work with students with learning disabilities. So we all kind of have our own well, areas of expertise and we assign students kind of based on their background coming in to work with counselors. And our job is to really help students to break down the college process itself. For all students, not even those that are, you know, in addition to those that struggle with executive functioning, most students find the college process overwhelming. So really spending the time to break that down into meaningful chunks. And to help students really execute that application process. So everything from college search, to standardized testing, to pressing, you know, send on those applications very soon, is really what we do with students.
Hannah Choi 05:37
That's great. I have a friend whose son is a junior in high school, and she just said to me the other day, I, you know, I want him to take ownership of it, because it's his college experience. And it's his, you know, it's his high school experience, and his, you know, it's his life. And at the same time, she's like, I feel like I need to support him as well. So it sounds like the services that you guys provide, probably make it so that parents can learn support, but also take a step back a little bit and give some of the ownership to the kid.
Rachel Leja 06:13
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, part of our process is meeting with everybody. First, we have a meeting where we talk with students and parents, and we get some insight about kind of the student's goals wants, you know, hopes for the future, but also the same from the parents. And then usually, it's largely hands off with parents, and it allows them to kind of step back and be a part of those more fun parts of the process, like going on college tours, or, you know, kind of talking about the things that their kids are excited about about college and not having to worry about some of those, like, you know, the the little tasks that can be lagging and aggravating, and then lets us kind of, you know, be those people and instead kind of helps students stay accountable while keeping peace at home.
Hannah Choi 06:58
I mean, I see that a lot as a coach, you know, just getting be allowing the parents to step out of that, like you said, like that sort of naggy role. And it's different when it's not someone in your family, when it's when it's someone outside your family. Working with you and supporting you with that kind of stuff, it it, it hits differently than when is your parents. Right, right. You know, did you did you do this? Did you do that?
Rachel Leja 07:19
Right? Yeah. And one thing that's you know, we always say is that we are truth tellers. So we are here to just share the information that we have with students and families and sometimes utilizing that objective data can really help to clarify things for students and for parents. And so, you know, that's, that's also part of our process with students and families.
Hannah Choi 07:39
Okay, so if you're working with a student who has, you know, a disability or ADHD or something like that, how do you support them? And how, what are the kind of the progress that what are the steps that you take? Yeah, to support them through that?
Rachel Leja 07:54
That's a great question. So we use in our college planning, what we call our WISE method of educational planning, which is broken into four steps. So already, we're breaking a larger task down for all of our students. So that first step is really the "wondering" phase, like, you know, thinking about what's my ideal college, what's available out there, what am I interested in. In that "investigation" phase, where we are really digging deep on colleges and looking into services, requirements, things like that, that "seek" phase, again, we're really doing a lot more of that kind of deep work. And then "endeavoring" is really just, you know, putting those applications together. So throughout those phases, for all of our students were utilizing this process and through the platform that we have called the owls nest, students are assigned tasks throughout that process that align both with the college process itself and with our wise methods. So that's one way that we kind of helped to break down and keep students accountable throughout the process for each of those tasks. The college process itself requires a ton of executive functioning skills. And even for students with strong executive functioning skills, the sheer amount of information and deadlines can be really overwhelming. So by breaking it into those meaningful and manageable chunks, that can help to increase clarity and productivity and also help students to manage the stress of the college application process. So my job is to just really help kids to get out of their heads, externalize some of their thinking, put things on paper, have conversations in a way that helps them to really wrap their brain around what they're looking at and what they want. Because it's it's such a daunting process. So my job is to help kind of make that process a little bit less mysterious.
Hannah Choi 09:47
Yeah, it's something that I've been that has kind of been trending for me lately is this idea of the strategies that that people with executive function challenges use can be used by anybody and and like you said, you know, it's this breaking things down and making things more accessible, making things easier that benefits everybody, regardless of any, like ADHD diagnosis or any other diagnosis, like why not take advantage of all of these strategies that are really helpful? Right? Yeah, I love that the students can have a place that they can go to see what their next steps are. So it's the accountability is on them to do it. And yet that you give them some autonomy to say like, Okay, I need, I need to, I need to make this choice to log into this account and see what the next steps are, and and figure out when I'm going to do that, and how I'm going to make that fit into my busy schedule. So I love that you, you, you give them you support them with the tools that they need to, to work towards that independence, and you give them the opportunity to have some autonomy, about around how they're going to approach it and when they're going to approach it.
11:02
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things in my work that I like to do at first, especially, is to really model all of those good behaviors for students like when we're getting together, okay, we're logging in together, we're looking at your Owl's Nest, we're looking at your common app, we are, you know, modeling these behaviors for students so that they understand, you know, how to create good habits around this. It's not second nature for a lot of kids to just like, know how to research such a vast topic, and what to do with all that information. So a lot of it for us is really guiding students in those initial phases. And then by this time of year, hopefully, and many of my students are doing this, they're really taking off and they really are taking ownership. I've had a couple of meetings just this week with students where they've come in with their own agenda, and you know, their own set of questions for me, and I feels like I'm no longer leading the meeting, and I'm just really helping guide them, which is my favorite part.
Hannah Choi 11:55
Oh, I love that. That's great. So speaking of this time of year, I mean, we are recording this, at the end of October, and this episode is going to drop in, in November. So at what point is, should people be by this point? And and, you know, listeners, if you're listening at any other time of year, it's still this, this information is still going to be relevant, because, you know, you can write down some information, save it for the future. But you know, like, at what kind of like, what's a good timeline, the least stressful timeline, then somebody could follow?
12:34
Yeah, that's a great question. So we have a lot of families that come to us early in the process. I currently have a couple of sophomores on my roster that I'm working with and, and that work is really just geared towards helping to guide them through high school and their experience and sort of thinking about, you know, what are your interests? What are the courses that you're taking? What extracurriculars are you pursuing? So you know, that is certainly an okay time to start as well. But most students start kind of in their junior year, I usually start more intensive work with students over the summer before senior year. So our hope is to really focus the bulk of the writing during that junior summer, or that summer leading up to senior year so that when senior year hits, and you are back in the thick of it with schoolwork and applicant finalizing your applications, that that is kind of off your plate kind of that that task is one less thing to do. And that allows you to do things like you know, go on some last minute visits, and you know, maybe have some more conversations about strategy with your with your counselor. But I certainly also have students that come to me at the beginning of senior fall, and they haven't maybe done any work at all, or they've done some work. It's certainly doable. It's a little bit more of a stressful timeline. But we generally get it done. I mean, in early applications are going in November 1, which means ideally, we'd love kids to press that submit button tomorrow to account for any possible technical difficulties that might come their way. But you know, there's, there's really, it's never to, actually I don't want to say it's never too early to start, it would be certainly too early to start in eighth grade or something like that. But kind of starting the big picture process. Thinking about college as you enter high school is certainly not uncommon, especially in the changing landscape of college, which continues to be more competitive than ever. So I think you know, general rule of thumb by junior year, mid junior year, you're thinking about it, you're starting to go on college visits and spring of junior year and then in summer really focusing your attention on kind of those basic application parts so that you can take those off your plate later on in the fall.
Hannah Choi 14:48
Yeah, and that's such a it's so important to reduce the stress as much as possible because I mean life as a student is stressful enough if you are also challenged with executive dysfunction for whatever reason, when you're stressed the areas that start that challenge you are going to challenge you even more. So I can see how it is so important to take your stress levels into consideration when you're applying to, you know, to college, or when you are just going through the whole process, whether you're doing applications or whether you're actually in the application part or not.
15:27
Yeah, and I think just the the part of starting early, that also helps us it just gives you more knowledge from an earlier start. So that things you know, when something's less of an unknown, it's less intimidating, it's easier to initiate. So I think the more exposure that students can have, I mean, I know a lot of families with multiple kids who, you know, I go to visit colleges often. And I will see, you know, obviously a junior touring with maybe their freshman sibling or something like that, that's a great way to expose kids to just what college campuses look like. And another note, on your point about kind of those students that struggle with executive functioning is, you know, a lot of a lot of my work is helping students to sort of recognize the areas in which they are weakest when it comes to those executive functions, not to point fingers and say, You're bad at this, but to say, this is an area that you need some extra support. And, you know, if I'm starting to see a student really struggle, you know, we're looking at, you know, early decision deadlines, and it's two weeks before and you haven't, you know, done any outside work, or you know, you have you've been missing meetings with me, that's some really good data that we can use to inform your college selection process, because not all colleges are going to offer that type of support that's going to allow those students to transition from often highly scaffolded high school programs into a much more independent college landscape.
Hannah Choi 16:51
Something to keep in mind, which is related a little bit to what we were just saying is, if you have a diagnosis, you probably want to keep schools in mind that are going to be supportive of someone who might be taken advantage of accommodations. So how do you support students who maybe have used accommodations in high school and would like to continue, or at least have the option?
17:14
Yeah, to to do that, so many students don't realize that their IEP isn't going to follow them to college, and that we're going to need to look to sort of the, the originator of a lot of those recommendations and accommodations, which is often neuropsychological testing. So I think it's really important for students, especially as they're entering college, to be really familiar with that testing, we like it to be, you know, at least within two years, so that it's recent. And the reason for that is not just so that the information, you know, the data is most recent on the student, but also that the recommendations and accommodations that are being suggested, are relevant to a college setting. So you know, helping a student read through their neuropsych evaluation, maybe not all the nitty gritty, but looking at, you know, how do these things translate? What are these recommendations mean for you in a college setting? And think about what did that look like when you were in high school. So I often say to students, I'd really like you to tell me what you felt you needed in order to be successful in high school, what has helped you specifically, so kind of going through that list, and sometimes that's utilizing the IEP to say, you know, I did use this accommodation, and it was great, or I didn't actually need extra time as much as I thought I would. So that might not be something that I need in college. But the flip side of that conversation is, you know, the expectations of high school and the expectations of college are very different. Students that didn't feel they needed extra time in high school, with the increase in pace, volume and complexity of college level work might find that that extra time is absolutely necessary. So having that conversation about, you know, maybe more accommodations is better, you don't necessarily need to utilize them all, but they're there if you do need them. So having really frank conversations about what their diagnosis means for them. In some instances, we work with students to kind of acquire those accommodations, that's another service that we offer. So in that case, you know, scripting with students, having them you know, be comfortable explaining to a stranger, you know, this is my diagnosis, this is what it looks like for me. And these are the things that are most helpful to me, academically, and students having a level of comfort with even just the language like understanding, you know, the words that are going to help them best advocate for themselves. And those kinds of educational buzz phrases are buzzwords that kids might necessarily not necessarily be familiar with, but they see plastered all over the websites for every, you know, Academic Support Center at every college. So, a lot of just education around, you know, what is your diagnosis mean for you? What does it mean at a college level? And how might you find that support and best fit environment based on that information?
Hannah Choi 19:54
So how do how do students know where to look? And like is There's sort of like a clearing house of schools that are great for supporting people that might take advantage of
20:07
Yeah, you won't see this, but I'm holding a book that I use a lot. So the Princeton Review has a book called the "K and W Guide to Colleges", for students with learning differences. And I think that's a great place to start for families, because it does a really nice job of breaking down the levels of support that students will find at colleges. So to use some of their language, each college that's included in their guide is kind of coded. So there are the most structured programs. So those are the most comprehensive, usually fee based, they require some sort of application process or contract with the student. And they offer the most robust support delivered by learning specialists. In some instances, there's kind of a reverse FERPA where students will allow their parents to have communication with the college. So that can be really helpful for students that want to feel like you know, they have kind of a team around them supporting them, you know, those can often involve cohort learning. So grouping of students based on their needs. You know, I'm thinking of, of a of a couple of particular programs that offer within those cohorts, one on one support, which could be highly individualized based on a student's needs based on that documentation. But also small group instruction around things like executive functioning skills, and strategies, or even some content work with writing, reading comprehension. So those were the most kind of structured programs, and there are certainly many of those out there. And they're growing, because I think colleges are recognizing the need for that, not just coming out of COVID. But just coming out of a world where students are so highly structured in high school, you know, their, their time is accounted for almost 100% Every day, and then getting to college and recognizing, whoa, I have all this freedom, I only have two classes a day, this should be no problem. And we all know how that can go south very quickly. And then there's more coordinated services, where they're going to be services on campus where students can avail themselves of a writing center, a math center, maybe it's content, tutoring with peers, or professionals. Sometimes this is fee based, sometimes it's built into the college. But those services really rely on the student to lean in. Whereas those more structured programs, they're not going to go looking for you. They're not going to really be knocking on your door and the door of a door if you don't show up. But they are going to say "hey, I noticed that you weren't at our, you know, you missed our meeting the other day, what's going on?" In those coordinated services type schools, there's going to be more more responsibility on the student to access those services, which can be great for a student that is more independent and knows what works for them, I have several students that, you know, have said to me, I feel really confident in my ability to seek out what I need, consistently, great, we can look at more of those programs with coordinated services. And then there are those colleges that basically offer, you know, the Federal compliancy. So they are compliant. So they will they will do whatever, to provide reasonable accommodations to students who qualify. And you'll notice that every college says that they can do that. And to you know, a certain extent they can, they can offer extra time, they can offer, you know, preferential test taking spaces or maybe seating, things like that, maybe technology to support students. But that's going to be the least amount of, of oversight from the services to the student, meaning they're not going to, you know, come looking for you and say, Hey, you signed up for you know, you access the accommodations, but you haven't actually used any of them, it's really going to be on the student to do that. And many of your larger universities are going to have that kind of a thing. You know, where they have access to those things, but they need to do that on their own. That being said, there are some other really great larger universities that recognize that need, especially for students as they're transitioning in in their freshman and sophomore year, to offer a little bit more comprehensive support. So I think we're going to see that into the future. Some of these more competitive colleges are going to offer programs for students that are divergent, because they value these students think differently, and recognize that they can bring a lot to their communities.
Hannah Choi 24:21
That's great. Before I had my kids, I worked in the Office for Students with Disabilities at a community college in California. And it was really neat to see the the variety of students who would come in and you could really see the kids who had, who had practice the scripts and had, you know, really learned how to advocate for themselves and then the kids who were, you know, just learning how to do that. So it is wonderful that you work on that with kids, because it gives the it gives them so much more confidence and ownership of you know, this is something that that they're going out into the world with this year. divergence and it's not going away. And the world is yes, like you said it is slowly changing a little bit. But that's still the safe environment of us of a college. It's not that big outside world. So. So learning how to advocate for yourself is just hugely important. And even, even in the whole application process to I imagine if you don't have any kind of diagnosis, or if you don't struggle with executive function skills, still being able to advocate for yourself and say, you know, this is the kind of school I want, this is the kind of environment I want. Yeah, so I love that I love that what you do, supports kids and, and enables them to, to learn that and to become stronger in that.
25:43
So one part of my work with students is certainly helping them to, like I said, before, that word "demystify", like, what is all this educational jargon mean on these websites, and, you know, I'll have students that say, I looked at XYZ college, and I can't really tell the difference between the three. So kind of helping students to understand, you know, what those buzzwords mean, and how they translate to day to day. experiences for students is really important. So I always encourage families when they're visiting a campus, and if you know, your student is going to need academic services, whether that be executive functioning coaching, or content level coaching, or whatever that may be, go to the office of accommodations, or whatever it's called on campus, have a meeting with somebody in that department. Let me tell you this, they're kind of akin to the librarian, like they can't wait to help. This is their job, this is their passion. And it's so wonderful for students to meet those folks before they even apply to a college because not only does it take away some of the unknowns about you know, are these people nice? Is this in an area of campus, that's going to make it really obvious when I access it, or, you know, how many other kids use this program? Am I going to be the only one, those are things that students can talk about with these folks at these accommodations offices, that will help to de-stigmatize and demystify the whole process so that when they actually land on campus, they say, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go speak to so and so the, in the accommodations office, because we had a really great rapport over the summer when I came for my tour. And I'm excited to, you know, see who I might be working with. And, and as much as you can - Parents, let students lead those meetings. Because, you know, I have lots of kids that go with their parents, and I've observed it myself on tours, where, you know, parents are kind of taking that role of asking all the questions and sharing all the information and as much as you can prepare and encourage your student to do that, because it's just good practice. And it also, you know, is going to create more of a genuine relationship with those folks on campus. And if the parents doing all the communication.
Hannah Choi 27:46
Right, yeah, and the parent, your parents are not going to be there when school starts.
Rachel Leja 27:50
You're going to college!
Hannah Choi 27:53
Yeah, a lot of the students that I work with, are our freshmen and sophomores in college, and they are, much of much of what we will end up talking about is how to take advantage of the services and accommodations that they qualify for. And, and figuring out just the process, and, and how, who to talk to, and what, what documents they need and, and how to take advantage of the services. And I just, I always think like, Oh, if this conversation had been had, before they got there over the summer, or once they were accepted, or whenever it'd be much less stressful, and much less like you said, like a mystery, like, what is this mystery office over here? And yeah, so I really encourage anyone listening, like Rachel said, is, you know, go in there and meet people early and, and you know, write a script out, practice what you're going to say, and figure out the questions you want to ask and write them down, you know, you're probably going to be nervous when you go in. So if we're nervous, it's hard to use our executive function skills. And so I don't know about you, but memory is always my first to go. And I have to write stuff down.
29:06
So yeah, and I encourage students, when they when they go, you know, bring your documentation with you bring your list of recommendations and accommodations and, and highlight that baby up and share it with them. There's no, there's no shame in not being able to remember all the intricacies of your profile. And I think that, you know, those folks would really appreciate having that information up front, because then they can really speak to how they can support you specifically. First, and, and what you know, if there's multiple programs on campus, you'll notice now a lot of schools have kind of differing levels of support different tiers, so they can make recommendations, you know, based on your documentation based on their experience that would be best fit for you.
Hannah Choi 29:46
Yeah, yeah. I love that. And I mean, I just I just the other day did a webinar all about executive function skills and, and a big section that we talked a big thing that we talked about was this is this idea of building independence, those strong skills that you need for independence. And so and so someone who has, you know, who has, who someone who is a neurodiverse has a neurodivergent Berberine is going to, like I said, you know, you're going to have to use these skills when to get out of college. So take advantage of it in. And luckily, it is becoming less stigmatized, and there is more acceptance and conversation being had about it. So take advantage of it. Because you think college is hard. Once you get out of college, and you're out in the real world, you know, there's even less support. So it's such a good place to practice it.
30:41
And it just gives students the opportunity to start taking ownership over the process earlier on, there's so many people that are going to tell you what to do, what to think, where to go, how you know how to strategize. And I think if you have a really clear sense as a student of what's going to benefit you in terms of that support, then it will be easy for you to say, you know, XY and Z College is great, but they certainly don't offer the type of support that I'm looking for. So you know, thank you very much. But no, thank you. I won't be applying to x College, just because you've recommended it.
Hannah Choi 31:12
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. So this goes back to you know, anyone listening, if you are in high school, or you are the parent of someone who is in high school, now is the time to start practicing all of those things. Because what a super safe, supportive environment that you're in right now, to practice that. And it can be hard as a parent to let go and to let you know those potential stumbles happen. But it's it's so important, so important, especially if you have a neurodivergent brain,
31:45
Righ. And I think one thing for parents of all college students, but particularly with that narrow divergent brain is being curious about your student's college search process and not prescriptive. You know, I love having them kind of explained to you why is it this that this college appeals to you and really dig deep? If they'd say, like, you know, they have study abroad? Well, all colleges have study abroad, which particular programs are you interested in, you know, help to kind of elicit some of those conversations that are going to help to kind of crystallize their view of, of this college, instead of saying, like, well, I, you know, I'm not familiar with that college, so it must not be that good. Or are you going to get into a decent grad school with that college? Or, you know, nobody in our family went to that college. Those are all things that parents say, you know, without, without much ill intent, just sort of off-the-cuff just in conversation. But those are the kinds of things that can get into a kid's brain and really keep them from looking at things that are the best fit options for them for them. And it gets them thinking more in terms of aligning their values and beliefs with an end goals with their parents, which don't always match. Oftentimes don't match.
Hannah Choi 32:52
So maybe asking those open ended questions and maybe making observations but, you know, couching it with, like, there's no judgment in this observation, just from a place of curiosity. Yeah, which, again, goes back to how helpful it can be to have someone who is outside of their family and doesn't know the family history and doesn't know those, you know, those specific values, they can look at the student more, you know, the student outside of outside of all the other things that their parents think define the student.
33:24
And it's so helpful to to know those the parents values and the family's values to even if they don't align with the student, because that can be helpful when you experience you know, and this, this often happens at students will have a school on their list that their, their parent might not necessarily be as enthusiastic about and, and just sort of helping them to learn how to how to kind of share with their folks what appeals to them about that particular program. And, you know, I think for parents, I think the most helpful thing that you can do is to kind of, you know, help students lean into the process and, and make time and space for them to explore and help them with things like, you know, help them but don't do for them, you know, scheduling tours, and setting up interviews or taking advantage of opportunities to speak with current students. But really, just, like you said, kind of a no judgment zone and taking more of a backseat role and, and letting them drive the bus. And obviously, as you know, as professionals and as parents at certain points, you need to step in and course correct. But largely, if you give your students the space and the time to explore and to really dig deep and to really do some good reflective work, they're going to come up with a list of colleges, that is really great. And, you know, there's going to be a range of schools on there from, you know, reaches to more target schools to schools that they're, you know, more likely to get into and, and that's totally appropriate. And we encourage that. Yeah.
Hannah Choi 34:51
Which goes back to the whole idea of let's get started a little earlier on this. Yeah, we think we might need to. Yeah, I mean, that's something We that we work on all the time with our clients, like, let's start with this schoolwork or this work project earlier than then you think you might need because it is nice to have that extra time it is less stressful.
Rachel Leja 35:11
And I think for parents right now I'm experiencing this myself with some of the students I'm working with is, you know, it is getting close to deadlines. So they've been really great about standing on the sidelines and, you know, reading my updates and things like that, and communicating with me as necessary. But now that itch to sort of get involved starts to creep up. So it's so tempting to jump in, especially when your kids are struggling, but don't take that as an opportunity to gather some data about, you know, what's holding them up in the process, and what is the stumbling block, and certainly helping them to, you know, come up with strategies to address those, those, those blocks that they're having, but really just sort of thinking, okay, so how is what they're experiencing now going to translate to college. And sometimes that can really help parents to see that their student is going to need a more structured program, or they are going to need more comprehensive support, instead of just doing for them, allowing them to make mistakes, because they will, they will miss deadlines, and you know, things like that along the way. But, you know, all of that is to be sort of observed, again, with curiosity, and how is this going to translate? And how can I best support my students leading up to graduation leading up to the, you know, submitting the applications, whatever it may be to bolster those skills and strategies, they're going to need to be successful as they transition into college?
Hannah Choi 36:33
Yeah, and it's so hard. You know, that's something that we've talked about so many times, it's so hard as parents to back off and say, you know, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you drive the bus. But when they are supported, and given the tools that they need, it can reduce the chance of, you know, missing too many deadlines.
36:56
Right, exactly. Yeah. And, and oftentimes, you know, those, those instances where kids do do mess up or message miss a deadline or something like that, you know, all behaviors, communication. So maybe if we miss some of those early action deadlines, maybe we're not so sure about those colleges, and maybe we need to solidify our list. And, and it's such a, it's such a developmental process and a process of discovery for students. So, you know, so much of the work that we do with kids is centered around mirroring back to them, the the characteristics, the values, the beliefs, that they have the interest, the passions, to help them sort of start to see themselves outside of themselves, like, you know, what do you bring to a college campus and, and sometimes that process takes time. And parents get really nervous that, you know, we're getting close to deadline, and that essay isn't perfect. But, you know, through that process of writing the essay, not only have I learned so much about your students, so that I can guide them to the best, you know, opportunities for them. But they have now learned so much more about themselves. And they just have, you know, after they write a couple of really strong supplements about, you know, why do I want to attend this college or, you know, tell us about yourself outside of school, they start to see the person that everybody else sees that maybe they don't necessarily see. So a lot of my work is just helping them not only recognize the areas that they're going to need more support in college, but what are the attributes that you bring to a community that are really going to help your application shine, and set you apart from other other qualified applicants.
Hannah Choi 38:32
And that and that just really shows you the value of having allowing your student to work through that process on their own, from a really authentic place? Because then it does give them the opportunity to make those discoveries about themselves. And, and, and figure out like, oh, well, I thought this was my value, but in the process of writing this out, or it's kind of like a journal, right, that process of journaling, also, like served as my college essay, yes, supplemental writing, you know, can really open your eyes to something that you didn't necessarily realize was true.
39:08
Yeah, and for students with executive functioning, challenging, the writing piece is often the hardest part. I mean, writing requires you to use so many of your executive functions, you know, you've got a lot of balls in the air, you're juggling when you're trying to write something. So from organizing your ideas to, you know, creating meaningful and clear communication to the reader and your writing style. You know, all of that requires a lot of a lot of scaffolding for students with executive functioning deficits. So, you know, my work with kids can sometimes look like, Okay, we don't know where to start. I'm just going to ask you some questions. And as you talk about this, I'm going to write down as much verbatim you know, is I can get so that we can then take a look at you know, what do you what do you have to say or what do you sound like when someone just casually asks you this question versus when you're trying to craft the perfect hook for your A college essay. So, you know, when we take away some of those demands of, you know, organizing the ideas in their head holding them while they get them on paper, you know, thinking about how do I translate this in a way that is creative, but also clear and, you know, leaves my reader wondering, you know, that's a lot to ask students to do at one time. So we can try to again, help externalize some of that process, and really break it down. It's, I'm feel really lucky in that my training, you know, my background, my, my college degree is in professional writing. So writing has been something I've been passionate about forever, I had a ton of great training, when I worked at Landmark around the five step writing process. And, and so much of that is translated into my work with students, and all of our counselors do that, because we all have school experience. But some students, those with executive function needs really just need that extra level of support. And by kind of allowing students to, to just think about conveying the content, first, it really does open them up to recognize that they have a story to tell, yeah, a lot of them get really bogged down in, you know, they've got I can tell they've got the Thesaurus up, and they're throwing in synonyms wherever they can, but, you know, colleges really want to hear your authentic voice. So helping students to develop that authentic voice, it can take time, but it's absolutely worth it every single time.
Hannah Choi 41:23
Yeah, I can't, gosh, who knew that applying to college could be such a self discovery process. And you think it's just like, Oh, I'm just gonna find the school to go to but it you can really learn so much about yourself and what you need, both to be successful. And just to feel like you can be your authentic self.
41:45
Yeah, so many kids don't know what they want to do when they get there. And that's okay, too. I think part of it is just helping kids to recognize that this next step is going to allow them to further develop their interests and passions, and we just need to make mindful decisions about a college, it's going to give you the opportunity to do that. And also recognize that there are, you know, some programs of interest there that you might like down the line. But for so many kids with ADHD, executive functioning challenges, or any learning disability, getting through high school has been the challenge. And so the idea of entering willingly into four more years of, you know, much more intense academic setting is really scary. And so kind of helping them recognize that it doesn't have to be a home losing my train of thought here, it doesn't have to be something that's, that needs to be set in stone, and that they can really continue this process of development when they're at college. And you don't have to have all the answers now you just need to set yourself up in the best way that you can for success.
Hannah Choi 42:49
Right and finding a school that is going to be an integral, positive supportive aspect of that is, yeah. So, once once a student gets to school, do you have some recommendations for, you know, aside from what we already talked about, with taking advantage of, or getting to know that office of accommodations or Disability Resource Center, whatever it's called on the campus? You know, what are some what are some suggestions that you have for students?
Rachel Leja 43:20
So one thing I like to always suggest that students do, and this is the case of most colleges, you know, the accommodations office is not going to communicate to your professors, what your needs are, what your accommodations are. So your first order of business should be to set up meetings, whether that's during office hours, or, you know, however, your professor manages their time to go and meet with that Professor one on one. And if you've had that conversation with the accommodations office, you've already had some good practice, feel free to bring that script, they will provide for you often a physical letter or a digital letter that you will provide to the professor, use that as the basis for your conversation. But I think just being very upfront from the beginning, and this is not an opportunity to overshare This is not like let me give you my life story. And all the ways I've failed. Let me tell you, you know, I've done my homework before I got here, these are the services I'm going to avail myself of, this is what I need from you, you know, I have an accommodation for professors notes beforehand, you know, not all professors are going to be amenable to that at every college. But in my experience, if students have been proactive, and students have taken ownership and responsibility for their part of the process, teachers are much more likely teachers and professors are much more likely to lean in and support that student. And it also just takes away some of that unknown again, you're building a relationship with your professor from the very beginning. So if and when because it happens to everybody and I remember what had happened to me. Everything's going along in September and October and then like, you know, we've got a bunch of things happening all at once or exams or something like that. So when you know when the Autumn does fall out, you already have that established relationship with your professor. So I think that's incredibly important. Utilizing any sort of transitional freshman support system that exists, whether that's a seminar class, led by an advisor could be your advisor could be another instructor, just taking advantage of all of those opportunities, academically and socially, because a lot of these more structured programs will have a social element to them as well, because for students that have learning disabilities, sometimes that has impacted their social life in different ways, for whatever reason. And those are opportunities for them to, you know, get involved in campus activities to make, you know, like minded friends and peers, and also, again, just de-stigmatize this idea of students with learning disabilities on college campuses. And then I would also say, really get to know your advisor, right off the bat, even if you're going in undeclared. And you might not have the same advisor year to year I have students worried about that, well, you know, what, if they change, establishing that relationship from the start is great, because not only can you share what you need in terms of support from the college and from your advisor, but you can also talk with them talk through with them your plan, your goals, you know, what are the paths that you're considering pursuing, and just really remembering that you are spending a lot of money to go to college, and these things are built in and or, you know, they might be a fee based program, but you are, you know, you are paying for this, so make sure you get your money's worth, and recognize that it's the college's responsibility to, you know, to make good on these promises for accommodations and things like that. So really not feeling like a burden. I think that's the big problem that a lot of my students have is they've always felt like that, you know, and they've probably heard it, you know, they might have overheard a teacher saying, Oh, I have to make extra notes for Johnny again, like, God, that's such a pain. And then they start to internalize that and feel like they're a burden, and really just from the start to recognize that they are, they're taking responsibility for what they need. And they are, they're taking that burden off of other people by saying, Hey, here's what I need, here's how you can do that. Let's help each other make that happen. So that would be some advice that I would have for students. And that's easier said than done. Obviously, that takes a confident kid. Yes. But luckily, it's a practice. Yeah, lots of practice. But luckily, there are organizations like yours and others that will help students to lean in and take advantage of those. Those supports, and even I talk with students all the time, even on a more traditional campuses where those supports don't exist, or in that level of, to that level of I guess. I don't know. I don't know how to phrase that. But then like, yes, exactly more holistic, that there are ways to supplement that elsewhere. Yeah. And so you know, there might be a student who says, you know, I'm really I know that I'm going to need these things. But this is the college I've dreamed of going to since I was little, and I got in and you know, Ed, and all of that, well, then, okay, we can make that happen, as long as there's somebody there that can say, okay, there's a gap here, we need to fill it somehow. How can we find that? Yeah,
Hannah Choi 48:08
well, I mean, I can say from the other side of that, all that preparation, and all those steps that you just mentioned, it truly, truly, truly does make a difference. I mean, I have had clients who, I had one client who was very, very sick during finals week, she had, she had established a really great relationship with one of her professors. And so the professor was super, super lenient with her, and, uh, you know, and made accommodations for her and allowed her to, I can't remember what that you know, how they actually did it, but she was able to do that final in such a way that, you know, worked around her being really ill, but also, you know, within the timeline that the teacher needed to follow as well. So, I mean, it just makes such a huge difference. And I see it in the students who they do feel like they're a burden, or they feel like these college professors are not human, they're sort of like this, like these magical beings and just anyone listening, your professors are human, and they appreciate a heads up, and they appreciate you expressing to them what you need, and saying, and this is how I would like to take advantage of it. Don't leave it up to them to come up with a solution. Tell them this is what I need. And this is how I plan to take advantage of it. What can I do to make your life easier?
Rachel Leja 49:34
Right and that's, that's huge, because I think students, students often are used to the adults taking care of it in high school, ya know, it's it goes, goes on to all your teachers read the site up, let's do these things for the student. And at the college level, I think, you know, just showing them that you understand that there is an additional, you know, there's additional work involved for the professor, but ultimately it's going to be you know, little In comparison to the work that that student would have to do to overcome those challenges on their own and, and I think that it's important to remember that there are going to be some colleges that are more competitive or most competitive, that are not going to be able to offer students this level of individualized attention this level of accommodation. And that's, again, why it's so important to visit these these offices before you before you apply to schools. And, and even if you don't have a chance to visit before you've applied, when you get those acceptances, it's certainly an appropriate time to say I'd love to set up a meeting with you and talk about what this would look like. And you know, that can be done via zoom. We are all very zoom savvy now. So if that college is further away, you know, don't wait until you're on campus, I would say no matter what, get that ball rolling proactively.
Hannah Choi 50:48
And if you do, wait till you're on campus, please don't wait until midterms. Right?
Rachel Leja 50:52
Right. Yeah. If it's the second week, and you haven't met anyone yet, put it on here. Yeah, you've got to really lean in. Yeah, it's not like high school where the first two weeks are just like figuring out your schedule. Getting to know Yeah, they jump right. And hammer drops. Pretty quickly.
Hannah Choi 51:07
Yeah, I have a client who goes to a school where they're on seven week terms. And he has a quiz on the second day of class. Yeah, sounds about right. Yeah, he has readings due on the first day of class.
Rachel Leja 51:19
And that's a whole nother part of it for students is they've never experienced a syllabus and you know, self guided workflow, if you will, you know, recognizing that, it's, that's not the reading you're gonna do in class that day, that's the reading that's due that day, and you're expected to do beforehand, a lot of education around like how to read a syllabus, you know, and that's part of what those folks in the accommodations offices and those executive functioning coaches can do for students is, let's sit down. And let's look at each one of your syllabi for this semester, let's identify, you know, those, you know, those stress points where there's going to be a lot of things do at once, let's get ahead of that. Because, you know, extended time and college on assignments isn't a thing. It's called you start earlier. So, you know, really understanding how do i budget my time and plan? And also how do I create a course load that's going to allow me to kind of balance my energy. So it's not too reading heavy to writing focus, really having a sense of, of how those kind of Gen Ed requirements might, might pull on you as a student with those challenges.
Hannah Choi 52:23
Yeah, and that's actually something I meant to mention earlier is when you are connected with your advisor, and the accommodations office, they know teachers, and they know, you know, who might be a good fit for your particular brain. And then also just rate my professor.com make absolutely advantage of those things. Don't try not to base your schedule, or your classes on the schedule, like Yeah, okay, we all want an ideal schedule, right. But let's also take a look at, you know, the professor makes a huge difference.
Rachel Leja 52:53
And the ideal schedule for a teenager might feel like classes that start at three in the afternoon. But that is, you know, as I quickly found out as a student, you know, if you have classes that go till, you know, 7:30/8:00 at night, and then you still have work to do in your next class, the next morning is at whatever time you know, being really mindful to of your of your habits, your sleep schedule, what you need in terms of sleep and what you need in terms of downtime to because so much of what students don't consider when they're thinking about colleges is like, how I will have free time, right, what will I do with it? And how can I spend it in a way that's both productive when it needs to be but also, you know, refreshing and recuperative? It needs to be too.
Hannah Choi 53:35
Yeah, yep. So I think the the message that keeps running through this is start early on anything. Yeah, everything. Everything just start earlier than you think you need to build your independence, build some autonomy and use your external resources. Ask for help. Absolutely. Yeah. Great. Well, so what are you? What are you excited about in your, in maybe in your work or in your personal life? What's something that you're looking forward to?
Rachel Leja 54:09
Yeah. So professionally, I'm really looking forward to getting these early applications in.
Hannah Choi 54:14
Yeah.
Rachel Leja 54:16
A lot of my kids yeah, I tell them you this is the time of year when I'm, I have sleepless nights for you guys. So submitting those applications. I'm really excited about that. And having my kids get a little bit of a break too, because it's really stressful and it's hard to hard to log on with, you know, kids on Zoom and you can see it on their faces as they are ready to be done. So I'm excited for that for me and cool them. And personally, I'm a huge Halloween fan. Coming nice. I've continued to add decorations outside I'm really hoping I get more trick or treaters this year. We had a really great year the year before last we give up the full size candy bars around I love that and last year we had three two or treaters. So if you live in my neighborhood Yeah. Come by come by our house and it'll be all lit up and we've got candy for you. That's
Hannah Choi 55:07
Awesome. Yeah. And so if someone is interested in learning more about Macmillan and you in particular, how can how can they reach out to you?
Rachel Leja 55:17
Sure. So you can check out our website, that's Mcmillan. education.com. You can find out more information about our process our work with students of all ages, really. And you can find out any information about all of our counselors, we all have a little kind of bio and some some blogs on there too, for people to check out. And you can also take a look via our website, our own podcasts, we have wise advice for educational planning. And there are some episodes there that are geared towards kind of the college process. There's a great one on the essays and good ones on standardized testing. So that's another good free resource for families as well.
Hannah Choi 55:55
Thank you so much, Rachel, in good luck with Halloween. I hope you get more people!
Rachel Leja 55:58
Thank you. Thank you. Me too. I might put a sign out like Don't Don't forget about us. Yeah, we have full size full size candy bars. Yeah, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Hannah Choi 56:08
All right. Thank you. Thank you, Hannah. And that's our show for today. I hope you learned something I know I did. And in two or so years when my daughter starts her college search, wait a second. Oh my gosh, is it really only two years from now? Am I that old? Okay. Anyway, hopefully I'll be better prepared to support her. Do you know someone who is also that old? I mean, whose kiddo is also about to apply to college? Please share this episode with them. We will love you for it. And if you have any questions or topic suggestions, you can reach out to me at podcast at beyond booksmart.com You can subscribe to Focus Forward on Apple and Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And if I said as I said in the beginning, if you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can help us out by giving us a boost with a five-star rating. And you can sign up for our newsletter at beyond booksmart.com/podcast And I realized I do not give our podcast behind-the-scenes people enough airtime. So here's a million thanks to Sean Potts, our editor and producer Justice Abbott, a marketing specialist and truly our everyday marketing hero and Angela Malloy, who helped connect me with Don McMillan and Rachel Leja at Macmillan education. Thanks for listening!