The Leadership Podcast

Dr. Margaret Heffernan has written six books including "Willful Blindness: Why We Ignore the Obvious at Our Peril" and "Uncharted: How to Navigate the Future," both widely recognized as top business books. Dr. Heffernan returns to the Leadership Podcast with insights from her new book "Embracing Uncertainty: How writers, musicians and artists thrive in an unpredictable world." She challenges conventional wisdom on how we think about decision-making in uncertain times. She reveals why leaders need to step away from predictive algorithms and reclaim their human capacity for intuition.  She discusses the difference between healthy uncertainty and harmful vagueness, sharing practical techniques for leaders who want to make better decisions without drowning in endless analysis. She reveals why agenda-free meetings often produce better results than structured ones, and how silence can be more powerful than speaking. Through personal examples, Dr. Heffernan demonstrates how apparent failures can become unexpected successes when we learn to sit with uncertainty rather than rush to conclusions.  This episode provides actionable insights for leaders who want to navigate uncertainty with confidence, make decisions with incomplete information, and create space for the unexpected insights that drive breakthrough thinking. You can find episode 472 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |   Key Takeaways [03:32] Dr. Heffernan reveals what's not in her public bio: she's been trying to grow vegetables for about 10 years and is still absolutely terrible at it, and she's currently learning Italian, which is a deeply humbling experience. [04:53] Dr. Heffernan explains that leaders can reclaim intuition for better decision-making by absorbing quality information through everyday observations—like walking city streets or eavesdropping on conversations—to "restock their mental kitchen" with rich ingredients that will inform future choices when needed. [10:11] Dr. Heffernan confirms that when you slow down, thoughts bubble to the surface - some mundane like "oh God, I forgot to feed the cat," others valuable like identifying the right person for a job that your brain was processing subconsciously. [11:59] Dr. Heffernan distinguishes between necessary ambiguity and harmful vagueness by explaining that decisions are always ambiguous because they're "hypotheses about the future," but harmful vagueness occurs when leaders don't ask clear questions or establish what decision needs to be made.  [17:09] Dr. Heffernan describes transforming a board she chairs from having overly strict agendas to focusing on "what are the three most important things we need to be talking about right now," explaining she has more often seen time wasted from detailed agendas than loose ones. [20:33] Dr. Heffernan explains that "action is how you search" - you can talk, think, and research forever, but the only way to know if something will work is to start, emphasizing that what really matters is beginning, not necessarily where you start. [23:06] Dr. Heffernan suggests that risk tolerance may actually be lower than ever before, but people's level of anxiety drives them to reduce risk, working with wealthy companies whose "risk aversion is almost tangible" despite having enormous resources. [24:36] Dr. Heffernan acknowledges that artists and musicians must be vulnerable to put themselves out there, but explains that most people she's worked with have high risk tolerance because "if you're going to do something meaningful and worthwhile, probably going to be something you haven't done before." [26:35] Dr. Heffernan shares that her book "Willful Blindness" initially seemed like a failure with only a couple of reviews after six months, but took off after making the Financial Times Business Book Award longlist and continues to have readers over a decade later. [28:53] Dr. Heffernan explains her motivation for writing "Embracing Uncertainty" stems from her belief that "the marginalization of the humanities and the arts, the defunding of the arts" is doing "immense harm" and represents "a gigantic loss, not just to the arts, but to all aspects of life." [32:01] Dr. Heffernan outlines her ideal leadership retreat opening: "sending people out for a walk and coming back to report what they saw," explaining this practice "wandering around stuff" and would reveal amazingly different observations from different people. [33:43] Dr. Heffernan suggests the better instruction for the walking exercise would be "noticed" rather than "saw" because "you could notice in all sorts of different ways," allowing people to focus on hearing, feeling, or thinking differently. [40:57] Dr. Heffernan explains she's become "much less concerned about planning now," leaving more margins for things to go wrong and scheduling less frantically to create "space and time for things to happen." [42:39] Dr. Heffernan describes a transformative experiment where she appointed herself "the listener" in meetings, discovering that when you're not looking for moments to speak, "you actually are listening to the person who's speaking instead of rehearsing in your mind what you're going to say next." [45:48] Dr. Heffernan concludes that leaders should remember "what's uncertain is a whole range of things that are possible" and warns against "demanding too much certainty too fast" because "what's certain is what's known and something you've done before," while innovation requires exploring uncertainty rather than shutting it down. [46:57] And remember...“Uncertainty is a very good thing: it's the beginning of an investigation, and the investigation should never end.” - Tim Crouch Quotable Quotes "Intuition is a very accelerated retrieval of a lot of stuff that's been roaming around in your head. The issue is, how do you make sure that the stuff roaming around in your head is quality stuff." "Action is how you search. You can talk about stuff forever. You can think about stuff forever. You can research stuff forever. But the acid test is, do you start?" "What's uncertain is a whole range of things that are possible. Be careful of demanding too much certainty too fast in too many domains because what's certain is what's known and something you've done before." "If you're desperate to speak, you don't listen. I realized that's what I'd been doing a lot of my life - looking for the moment where I could land my brilliant contribution." "The only way I can know if I can write a book is to write a book. I can think about it forever, but actually, I will never know unless I do it."   These are the books mentioned in this episode   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Dr. Margaret Heffernan Website | Dr. Margaret Heffernan X | Dr. Margaret Heffernan Instagram | Dr. Margaret Heffernan Facebook |

Kurt Gray is a professor of psychology and neuroscience, and the author of "Outraged: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common Ground." In this episode,. Kurt explains why our workplaces have become battlegrounds of moral outrage. Kurt's groundbreaking premise challenges the fundamental assumptions leaders make about motivation and conflict. While we've been taught that humans are driven by conquest and dominance, Kurt's research reveals we're actually hardwired as prey animals, constantly scanning for threats and seeking protection through tribal bonds. This isn't just academic theory—it's the key to understanding why your team members react with such intensity to seemingly minor workplace conflicts, why facts fail to resolve disputes, and why traditional leadership approaches often backfire in our current climate of perpetual outrage. Kurt reveals why social media has weaponized our ancient prey instincts, creating what Kurt calls "moral panics" that spread faster than ever before. Kurt introduces the revolutionary concept of "stories of harm"—the narratives that drive all moral conflict. Kurt also discusses the "vulnerability paradox"—how the strongest leaders actually become more effective by showing vulnerability first.  Kurt outlines his practical framework for CIVil discourse: Connect, Invite, and Validate. This isn't corporate speak or sensitivity training. It's a research-backed approach that acknowledges our prey psychology while channeling it toward productive outcomes. Leaders learn how to connect with people as human beings before diving into disagreements, how to genuinely invite different perspectives without triggering defensive responses, and how to validate concerns without necessarily agreeing with conclusions. This episode is a timely reminder that outrage doesn’t have to define us and that leadership starts with understanding how others perceive harm. You can find episode 471 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |   Key Takeaways [02:28] Kurt reveals he starts out in geophysics before transitioning to psychology, looking for natural gas in the Canadian wilderness before studying people's minds. [03:35] Kurt explains that while we think of humans as apex predators based on museum dioramas of cave people with spears, we're actually fairly weak and were more likely hiding from predators in the past, worried about getting eaten. [06:49] Kurt explains that people work together in groups for protection - one human naked in the wilderness won't survive long, so we need teams to help us survive and protect each other from threats. [08:17] Kurt explains that emotions and gut feelings drive our decisions more than facts, and when people have strong moral convictions, they dismiss facts from the other side as "not the right facts" or "not real facts." [11:24] Kurt suggests framing challenges as positive ways to rise to the occasion rather than focusing on fear, emphasizing resilience and future-facing thinking about how teams can be stronger. [13:21] Kurt emphasizes seeing people as three-dimensional rather than flattening them to just the opinion you disagree with, and highlighting common values and missions that organizations share. [14:54] Kurt acknowledges the trend of self-segregation but suggests focusing on deeper unifying concerns about protecting ourselves, families, companies, and nations from harm. [17:57] Kurt explains multiple factors including cable news, social media's ability to incite moral panics through limitless threats paired with virality metrics, and the resulting purity tests when people feel threatened. Kurt explains that debates often center on "who's the real victim" - in immigration, the right sees American citizens as victims while the left sees undocumented immigrants as victims fleeing violence. [23:16] Kurt explains that in group conflicts, minds think of moral competitions as binary (perpetrator or victim), and people stick to victimhood claims because it's better to be the victim than the perpetrator. [27:51] Kurt explains that vulnerability creates connection - when forced to be vulnerable with others (like being stuck in wilderness conditions), people bond incredibly because they're all in trouble together. [30:38] Kurt references Nick Epley's studies where people on Chicago trains think deep conversations would be awkward but actually love them, bonding much faster through meaningful questions rather than small talk. [32:54] Kurt confirms this, explaining our minds are hardwired to find threats, so when obvious threats like starvation don't exist, we expand minor threats into big ones - calling this "creep of harm." [36:28] Kurt confirms that our minds evolve to protect us from harm by paying attention to places where we feel victimized in the past, like always remembering an intersection where you get mugged. [39:01] Kurt outlines Connect (ask questions to connect as human beings before discussing politics), Invite (genuinely invite them to share beliefs with motivation to understand), and Validate (appreciate their vulnerability in sharing without immediately arguing back). [43:28] Kurt emphasizes asking "what harms do they see?" when confronted with someone who disagrees, as this takes you out of your own mind into theirs and allows you to meet them where they're at. [45:38] And remember...“Morality is not the doctrine of how we may make ourselves happy, but how we may make ourselves worthy of happiness.” - Immanuel Kant Quotable Quotes "We are more hunted than hunter." "Conflict flattens people and it flattens people to just the opinion that they have that you disagree with." "People say, you know what I want. I want the facts... And then people say, not those facts. Those are not the right facts. Those are not real facts. Facts are very flimsy, especially in cases where we have strong moral convictions." "Social media is so good at inciting moral panics because it has two features. One of them is a limitless supply of threats... And two, it pairs these threats with virality metrics." "The way to be comfortable being vulnerable with others is, in fact, by trying to get other people to be comfortable being vulnerable with you." "The safer we are, the more we take minor threats and we expand them in our minds to be big threats." "We should, as leaders take a Hippocratic oath to do no harm." "The reason we work is not just to make money and take care of our families. We work, you know, in the service of other human beings to make other people's lives better." "A lot of the behavior we see in the work world is based on fear."   These are the books mentioned in this episode   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Kurt Gray Website | Kurt Gray X | Kurt Gray LinkedIn | Kurt Gray Instagram |

Ken Rusk is owner of Rusk Industries and bestselling author of "Blue-Collar Cash: Love Your Work, Secure Your Future, and Find Happiness for Life". Ken is also a motivational speaker who achieved WSJ Bestseller status with Blue-Collar Cash during the pandemic.  In this episode, Ken reveals why 77 million Americans still work with their hands, yet blue-collar careers remain stigmatized. He shares his revolutionary approach to employee engagement through what he calls "hiring the whole person" - not just the eight hours they work, but understanding their dreams, goals, and what they're chasing in life.  Ken also discusses the critical difference between reactive and proactive work environments, why blue-collar workers often have more control over their outcomes than white-collar employees, and how leaders can create what he calls "momentum mechanisms" that align personal and corporate goals. He shares memorable stories from his entrepreneurial journey, including the moment he realized two employees were making him money while he worked elsewhere, and the life-changing experience of working for someone who "thought big" in every aspect of life. Ken's pragmatic approach to leadership development, employee engagement, and business growth offers actionable insights for leaders in any industry who want to create environments where people can design the lives they want while contributing to organizational success. You can find episode 470 on YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |   Key Takeaways [03:11] Jan raises the question of how leaders can reshape the way society sees dignity and value in all kinds of work. Ken points out that nearly half of the 167 million fully employed Americans still work with their hands, a reminder that blue collar work remains essential. [04:59] Ken highlights that blue collar workers often have more control over what they produce, which gives them a direct connection to their work. He describes the “stand back moment” — a sense of pride in creating something tangible, a feeling that’s often missing in office jobs. [07:35] Reflecting on 38 years in business, Ken shares how his company grew from 6 to over 200 people. He talks about building a culture that made "ditch digging cool" before workplace culture was even a buzzword — hiring not just for the hours on the job but for the full person behind the role. [11:33] Ken talks about assigning someone the role of “Chief Culture Officer” or “Chief Cool Officer” to keep the company environment engaging. They swapped the word "goals" for "time pathways" and made personal milestones visible, so people feel invested in their work and each other. [14:08] Ken notes how side gigs have become more common. With tools like social media and mobile banking, many are turning hobbies — like making epoxy river tables into thriving weekend businesses selling for thousands. [16:00 Ken says his definition of success has shifted. What matters most now is time having the freedom to step back, see the big picture, and choose how to engage with his businesses. [17:15] One hard-earned lesson for Ken: drop the ego. He realized building a company isn’t about being the hero, it’s about finding people with entrepreneurial spirit and letting them lead because sometimes they’ll take it even further than he could alone. [19:15] Ken shares how he communicates financial responsibility by focusing on ROI instead of just dollars. He encourages department heads to think like owners by sharing profits from new revenue or cost savings creating buy-in from top to bottom. [23:49] When teaching ROI, Ken keeps it simple. He gives team leads a whiteboard and makes them subtract expenses manually — like balancing a checkbook — so they understand how their actions impact profits they can share in. [25:52] Ken encourages young people to ask "why" before choosing college or a trade. He suggests drawing a picture of their ideal life — the home, lifestyle, hobbies — then working backwards from that to choose a path. The key isn’t what you do, but what you do with it. [30:23] Ken shares two defining moments: one, realizing he could earn income even when not physically present on a job site; and two, working for someone who lived and thought on a massive scale. Both experiences showed him the power of big thinking and building something bigger than himself. [36:56] To close, Ken encourages people to block out the noise of expectations. Everyone knows what they truly want deep down. The key is to put that vision in front of you, let it guide you, and go live the life you actually want. [39:03] And remember...“The ultimate value of life depends upon awareness and the power of contemplation rather than upon mere survival.” — Aristotle   Quotable Quotes "Almost half the people in the United States are in some form of working with their hands to create, fix, repair, build something." "When you hire somebody, it used to be that you hired the eight hours that they were alive and working. Well, you better now know what that something else is." "When you have corporate goals that are on the same track and same speed as personal goals of the people within it, that's where this amazing synergy happens." "Time is probably your most valuable asset that you're ever going to own." "Did I open this company for it to run me or for me to run it?" "You're going to find out that their seedlings might even be higher than yours. You might be your own self limiter." "I don't necessarily think it's as important what you do for a living as it is what you do with what you do for a living." "You really need to stop listening to all the noise of societal expectations and even what other people think you should do."   These are the books mentioned in this episode   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Ken Rusk Website | Comfort Peace and Freedom Foundation | Ken Rusk X | Ken Rusk Facebook | Ken Rusk LinkedIn | Ken Rusk Instagram |

In this episode, Jim and Jan explore the power of doing nothing and why it might be the most strategic move a leader can make.  They begin with a discussion on Jan’s Crucible® expeditions, and the consistent lesson is that you have to slow down to speed up.  For Jim, it means intentional time without distractions. For Jan, it means hiking alone in silence, letting his mind wander and connect unexpected thoughts. They share how leaders like Einstein and Da Vinci embraced doing nothing as a form of active thinking. Jim and Jan also talk about character and discipline, referencing General Stanley McChrystal’s formula where character equals conviction times discipline. They explain how many people are disciplined but have never paused to ask whether their actions are aligned with their true values. They also stress that alignment is not a one-time event but a continuous process that requires regular feedback and adjustment. Jim and Jan also talk about the pressure people feel today, especially around layoffs and uncertainty. They highlight the importance of stepping back to identify the real problem before jumping into action. Jim points out that when leaders rush to act without reflecting, they waste those resources.  Jim and Jan believe leaders need a think list, not just endless to-do lists.  If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, stuck, or unsure where to focus next, this episode is a chance to reset.   You can find episode 468 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |   Key Takeaways [01:22] Jan asked Jim what he learned from his three crucibles. Jim said the biggest lesson is that “you have to unplug.” Solitude and stillness are essential for deep thinking and avoiding distractions. Jan added that you have to slow down to speed up, a principle he discovered during a hike in the snow-covered mountains. [02:29] Jan shared that doing nothing doesn’t mean sitting still. His mind was racing during the hike, processing thoughts like a “1985 MTV video.” He explained that movement without distractions lets his thoughts roam freely and helps him reset mentally. He drew inspiration from Einstein, who used solitude to spark creativity. [04:04] Jan discussed General McChrystal’s formula: character equals conviction times discipline. He said discipline alone is not enough if your convictions are flawed. Jim referenced a quote often attributed to Abraham Lincoln: if you have six hours to cut down a tree, spend three sharpening the axe. He stressed the importance of thinking before acting.  [07:02] Jan advised leaders to keep a think list instead of a to-do list. He asked Jim how he finds time to think. Jim shared how stepping back during his entrepreneurial journey helped him recognize the right opportunity. Jim said doing nothing is about quieting your mind to open your eyes and ears. He explained that opportunities often go unnoticed when you’re laser-focused or moving too fast.  [10:20] Jan said people under pressure need to “do nothing” in a productive way, like building relationships. He recalled early career advice that helped him shift from non stop work to meaningful connections. Jan reflected on how aging helped him realize what truly matters. He emphasized learning from others’ mistakes to save time.  [13:56] Jim used to tell veterans to focus on themselves before helping others. He later realized that helping others while seeking support lifts your spirits and sharpens your own clarity. Jim encouraged leaders to define the problem clearly before solving it. In meetings, he suggests everyone write down what problem they think they’re solving. If the team isn’t aligned on the problem, they can’t solve it effectively. [16:05] Jan shared a military lesson on shooting an azimuth to stay on course. He explained that even small mistakes in direction compound over time. Jim said alignment is not a one-time event but a continuous process. Jan emphasized the need for constant adaptability. Jan also noted that being “lazy” in the right way is really about being efficient with effort and resources. [23:40] Jim explained that efficiency isn’t just about maximizing profit. It’s about managing limited resources like time, money, warehouse space, and customer attention. Jan said energy is another limited resource that must be protected.  [25:49] Jan said leaders must care for themselves mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Jim closed by noting that throughout history, great leaders have stepped away to think. Those quiet periods led to their most valuable insights. If you never step back, you may never realize what you’re missing. [28:45] And remember...“Loneliness is the poverty of self; solitude is the richness of self.” - May Sarton   Quotable Quotes "You have to slow down to speed up." "Some people can sit. I can't sit. My doing nothing is moving." "Character is conviction times discipline." "The pressure's on. Well, what do you think most people are going to do when they hear the pressure's on from the boss? Let's get busy, let's do something." "You should have a think list, not a to do list." "It's not about doing nothing. It's about quieting your mind so you can open your ears and your eyes to see things that were already there." "You gotta take care of yourself, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually..." "You have to schedule quiet time." "Loneliness is the poverty of self. Solitude is the richness of self." — May Sarton "Alignment isn’t a static thing that happened once." "If you don't take the time and make the time to check out, you'll never understand what value you're missing."   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Jan Rutherford LinkedIn | Jan Rutherford X | Jim Vaselopulos LinkedIn | Jim Vaselopulos xX |

Kevin Eikenberry is a leadership expert with decades of experience and author of “Flexible Leadership: Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence”.  Kevin explores what it takes to lead effectively in a constantly changing environment. He shares why being a “remarkable” leader isn’t about charisma or titles. It’s about intentional actions, self-awareness, and the ability to influence in complex and fast-changing environments.  He challenges a common leadership trap: mistaking consistency for rigidity and explains how great leaders remain anchored in values while staying flexible in approach. He explores why so many leaders fail to delegate, how trust and influence suffer in remote settings, and the frequent mistake of promoting technical experts into people leadership roles without preparing them for the shift.  He also explains that leadership hasn’t changed at its core, but the growing diversity of values has shifted the context dramatically.  Kevin explains the confidence-competence loop and why the right leadership response often lies in managing tensions, not finding balance. He encourages leaders to slow down, reflect with purpose, and make conscious choices that align with the moment’s needs  and not just their preferences. If you’ve ever wondered how to lead when the ground keeps shifting beneath you, this episode is one to listen to more than once. You can find episode 467 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |   Key Takeaways [02:39] Kevin shared that he collects antique tractors and matching toy replicas. Growing up on a farm and being involved in his family’s agriculture business gave him real responsibility at a young age. That early exposure shaped how he sees leadership today: through the lens of contribution, accountability, and impact. [05:33] Kevin believes being remarkable starts with recognizing each person's ability to make a difference. It’s about instilling confidence without arrogance and acting intentionally. Great leaders help others believe they are capable and valuable, especially in environments filled with change. [09:40] Kevin challenges the false choice between being consistent or being flexible. He uses the image of a mature tree—rooted but able to bend—as a model for leadership today. Flexibility means changing your approach without compromising core values, especially as the context around you evolves. [13:39] Jim asked how the growing diversity of values affects leadership today. Kevin explained that while human behavior and leadership fundamentals haven’t changed, the context around them has shifted dramatically.  [17:35] Many leaders want to delegate but get caught in the mindset that it’s quicker to do things themselves. Kevin frames delegation as an investment, not a transaction. Building trust and capability in others takes time up front, but it's essential—especially in distributed and hybrid work settings. [21:02] Kevin points out that organizations often promote top performers in technical roles without preparing them for leadership. He draws a parallel to sports that great players rarely make great coaches.  [23:33] Kevin shares that to be intentional, leaders must slow down and reflect. Whether it’s quiet time during a commute or a simple end-of-day check-in, asking what went well and what could improve helps leaders stay grounded. Kevin stresses that reflection isn’t about ruminating, it’s about learning and adjusting. [29:02] Kevin notes that progress often comes after setbacks. When leaders own what’s theirs and shift focus to outcomes and others. Getting stuck in guilt or blame prevents forward movement. The key is to learn the right lessons and redirect energy to what matters next. [35:13] Kevin leaves us with a challenge: if you're still leading the same way you were before the pandemic, it's time to reassess. The world has changed. Flexible leaders recognize what the situation requires and adjust their approach—not based on habit, but on what will serve their people and outcomes best. [36:52] And remember...“All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns.” - Bruce Lee   Quotable Quotes “Being a flexible leader is about being willing to change my approach based on the context of the situation.” “Delegation has to be an investment.” “To be a truly flexible leader is a really hard task, because I'm suggesting that you have to go past your autoresponder.” “Reflection that informs maybe where the discipline should be.” “The confidence, competence cycle. Right. As we become more confident, it helps our competence, and as we become more competent, we become more confident.” “We think about leadership as being about three O's: outcomes, others and ourselves.” “What we need to do is manage the tension between things more than trying to find a perfect answer.” “If you haven't, if you've been consistent as a leader from then until now, do you think that all of those changes have conspired to make your approach to leading more effective? I'm not taking that bet.”   This is the book mentioned in this book Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Kevin Eikenberry Website | Kevin Eikenberry You tube channel - Kevin Eikenberry The Remarkable Leadership podcast - Kevin Eikenberry X | Kevin Eikenberry Facebook | Kevin Eikenberry LinkedIn | Kevin Eikenberry Instagram |

Retired U.S. Army three-star General Ray Palumbo is co-founder and senior partner of Venturi Solutions, having served 34 years leading conventional and special operations forces during peacetime and combat. A former 160th Squadron pilot and West Point graduate, he now serves on multiple boards and is passionate about supporting injured military veterans and Gold Star families.  In this episode, Ray discusses the critical distinction between leadership and generalship, explaining how generals must orchestrate multiple military capabilities while understanding how military power fits into broader national strategy.  He reveals how his humble beginnings in a Pennsylvania steel town, raised by educators and coaches, instilled the mental toughness and values that would serve him throughout his military career. Ray explores the transformative experience of joining the elite 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, where constant assessment and high standards created a culture of excellence that changed his life.  He breaks down his leadership pyramid model, emphasizing how successful organizations must establish unchanging values, cultivate culture that aligns values with behavior, build strategic capabilities, and communicate vision beyond immediate goals. Ray also addresses the complex challenge facing military veterans in today's polarized political environment, offering hope that stronger, more moderate leadership can bring the country back to "competing within the 40-yard lines."  For leaders transitioning from military to corporate environments, veterans feeling disillusioned with current discourse, and executives seeking to build values-based organizations, this episode provides powerful insights on authentic leadership, strategic thinking, and the importance of maximizing life's "scraps of time" for continuous growth. You can find episode 469 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Ray Palumbo on A Leadership Pyramid Model   Key Takeaways [05:02] - Ray explains his grandparents owned Columbus Tavern in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, he grew up in a coal town, came from a family of educators and coaches, his dad was a high school coach who became principal, and all family members had to play sports which taught mental toughness, discipline, and academic excellence. [06:41] - Ray confirms that the mental toughness his dad instilled, being educators who demanded academic excellence, and learning to be a team player, win, and lose with dignity was definitely ingrained growing up. [07:32] - Ray advises to "hang tough" because "the pendulum swings," believes the political discourse is polarized, and thinks stronger moderate leadership will bring the country back to "fighting the game between the 40 yard lines instead of from end zone to end zone." [09:29] - Ray explains there are similarities between military and corporate leadership, it comes down to values, mentions the army values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage, and emphasizes that values must be lived, not just carried in your wallet or on dog tags. [14:22] - Ray distinguishes that military leadership focuses on mission above self with potential personal sacrifice, while corporate leadership focuses on company loyalty and profitability. Generalship involves manipulating multiple capabilities and understanding how the military fits into all elements of national power including diplomatic, information, economic, and financial elements. [19:55] - Ray describes running a Combined Joint Special Operations Task force in Afghanistan where night operations sometimes resulted in civilian casualties, creating information challenges at local, national, NATO, and global news cycle levels, noting they "didn't figure it out at first" but "got better at it as time went on." [23:53] - Ray recalls a two star general telling him "we are all benefited and limited by our experiences," explaining he came from special operations with high expectations and had to learn not to "outrun your headlights" when commanding conventional forces doing complex air assault operations in Germany. [26:20] - Ray mentions working for General McChrystal in JSOC and reading "The Speed of Trust" by Stephen Covey, emphasizing that "trust goes a long way on cold, dark nights" when you have no control but must believe someone will get you where you need to go. [29:14] - Ray describes his pyramid model: establish values as the foundation, cultivate culture that reflects those values, build strategy to achieve desired ends, and communicate vision constantly, emphasizing that leaders must establish organizational values while culture aligns those values to actual personal behavior. [33:31] - Ray believes stronger moderate political leadership is needed but has strong opinions against senior officers opining about the commander in chief because it creates dilemmas for current soldiers who must follow orders while also respecting their former commanders who criticize the president. [37:48] - Ray explains that families have "suffered enough" during military service, today's political discourse involves digging into personal history, and many feel they've "given a lot already" and prefer other ways to help rather than dragging families through political campaigns. [39:09] - Ray shares a story from West Point where General Maxwell Taylor spoke about taking advantage of "scraps of time" throughout life, explaining that instead of hanging out drinking beer, using those moments for reading, studying languages, or practicing skills will put you ahead of competitors over a lifetime. [41:15] And remember..."Humility and knowledge and poor clothes excel Pride and ignorance in costly attire." - William Penn   Quotable Quotes "We are all benefited and limited by our experiences." "You don't want to outrun your headlights at times." "When it comes to mission focus, military leadership is loyal to the Constitution and puts mission above yourself." "Generalship, in my view, to answer your question, finally, is understanding the nuance between management of military capabilities and how military, how the military fits into all the other elements of power at the national level." "We need stronger leadership that's more moderate." "I believe that organizations have to be successful organizations and successful leaders have to establish values of the corporation." "Culture is so important in my mind because what is culture? It's. It's aligning the corporate values, the base, to actual personal behavior, how they behave." "If you take advantage of your scraps of time throughout a lifetime, and all things being equal to your competitors, you're going to be ahead." "There's stuff you want to do because you have a bunch of tools on your tool belt. And then there's stuff you should do because the community, country, society, whatever, needs you to do those things, which is going to require sacrifice."   These are the books mentioned in this episode   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Ray Palumbo LinkedIn |

Dan Manning is the Chief Story Architect at Build The Story, and a former fighter pilot and U.S. diplomat. Dan digs into the difference between storytelling that entertains and storytelling that leads to decisions.  Dan breaks down how he helps people choose the right story for the right moment and how every story should reflect a transformation: from fear to confidence, from confusion to clarity. He also talks about the power of visuals in storytelling, advocating for using them as prompts rather than distractions. Dan shares a story about giving tough feedback to ChatGPT and what it revealed about truth and trust in the digital world.   If you’re in a position of influence whether that’s in a boardroom or on a Zoom call, this conversation will get you thinking differently about how you communicate. You can find episode 466 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |     Key Takeaways [04:11] Dan shared how his varied experiences led him to storytelling.His background as a combat pilot and diplomat gave him lots of real-life stories. Each role taught him how to speak and connect in different ways. He says great stories come from living a full life. Teaching storytelling helped him improve his own skills. [05:57] Dan explained how he chooses the right story for the moment. He starts by asking what change he wants to spark. He chooses stories that move people from one mindset to another. It’s not about entertaining; it’s about making an impact. [09:26] Dan compares storytelling to how fighter pilots share lessons after missions. These “never again” stories are about mistakes and survival. In business, they help others learn without repeating those same mistakes. [11:11] Dan elaborated on how to make ‘never again’ stories work in business.Dan says a good story keeps people curious about what happened next. That curiosity helps the lesson stick. [13:37] Jim asked Dan about making his storytelling economical and precise. Dan always starts with the key message. He removes extra details so the main point stays clear. This helps people understand and remember what really matters. [19:59] Dan discussed the role of visuals in storytelling and whether we should ditch PowerPoint. Dan’s not a fan of slides, but he sees their value. He says visuals should support the message, not steal the spotlight. Use them to help people remember—not to do the talking for you. [25:22] Jim asked Dan about achieving conscious competence in storytelling. Dan learned to tell clear stories in high-stress situations. His military background taught him how to share complex ideas simply. Now, his goal is to help people act on what they hear. [29:38] Jan asked Dan about the paradox of emotional storytelling requiring emotional detachment. Dan says emotional stories must still stay focused. Even when a story is deep and personal, it should serve a purpose. If something doesn’t support the message, cut it out. [32:56] Dan explained his interaction with ChatGPT about “tough feedback.” He once asked ChatGPT for help and got a made-up excuse instead. It reminded him that AI can’t feel or judge—it just talks smoothly. He says let AI handle the easy stuff, and save the hard, creative thinking for people. [37:48] Dan believes good stories don’t just teach—they make people think. The real power is in getting listeners to reflect and ask their own questions. That’s what makes the story last. [39:33] And remember...“Humans think in stories, and we try to make sense of the world by telling stories.” - Yuval Noah Harari Quotable Quotes “You will never live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. You have to learn from the mistakes of others.”   “Story is the vehicle, not the cargo. The cargo is the important thing.”   “I'm not trying to push my story onto other people. I want to find what is already in their mind that they're already interested in that makes them want to pull it from me. “   “Every story is a story of transformation.”   “storytelling is the easiest way for humans to process information and use it to make a decision… And if I can be effective at conveying a story, I can shape the way that a person receives the information that I'm giving them. I can help them, I can drive their imagination to imagine what it would be like if you did the thing that I suggested that you should be doing. “   “I'm not telling stories for the sake of entertainment. I'm not telling stories so that people will laugh and nod and say, man, that guy's a great storyteller. I am telling stories because I want people to do something. I want them to make a decision too.”   “If someone doesn't believe that the story you're about to tell is going to somehow benefit them, you're. They're not going to listen to you. “   “The more that we begin thinking about how we make decisions with tools like AI, the better off we are, because it's easy for us to just offload what we consider to be the hard work to AI, but we really need to be offloading the easy work to AI so that we have more time to do the hard work ourselves.” These are the books mentioned in this episode. Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Dan Manning Website | Dan Manning LinkedIn | Dan Manning X |

Dr. Andreas Stamatis is a Professor at the University of Louisville and a Mental Performance Specialist at UofL Health, blending sport science, psychology, and leadership to help individuals and organizations thrive under pressure. In this episode, Andreas explores the foundation of mental performance—how it’s developed, why it’s often misunderstood, and what separates sustainable performance from momentary hype. Andreas introduces the “existential positive psychology”, a framework that views adversity as a growth opportunity—but only when it’s relevant.  Andreas challenges the idea that mental toughness leads to selfishness. He explains that mental toughness is a personal construct—true strength lies in managing competing demands without losing yourself or others.  He also tackles the corporate tendency to overvalue outcomes and undervalue behaviors. Andreas challenges that mindset, insisting that behaviors are more controllable, more consistent, and more ethical to reward. Andreas also sees potential in how AI can help shape behavior and context if used wisely. He compares it to any other high-performance tool: powerful when used with clarity and care. This conversation is for anyone who wants to build a mentally tough team, avoid burnout, and embrace the kind of leadership that values people over performance metrics.  You can find episode 465 wherever you get your podcasts!   Key Takeaways [03:14] Andreas breaks down mental performance, bringing with real-world examples. Andreas explains that mental performance isn’t about motivation—it’s about creating a “psychological infrastructure” that holds up under pressure, enabling sustainable, adaptable, and ethical performance when it matters most. [07:16] Andreas delved into existential positive psychology, using Lent as an example: “We do it because we understand that through stress, adversity, difficulty, we grow.”  [09:28] Andreas pointed out what is relevant adversity. Forcing someone to run a marathon when they’re a diver won’t make them stronger—it’ll just derail them. True growth comes from adversity that aligns with personal goals.  [10:45] To counter the perception that psychology is “soft,” Andreas uses data to show that mental toughness is a performance multiplier. His team collects evidence through interviews, questionnaires, and observations, proving that mental toughness improves not only performance but social cohesion and reduces issues like screen time addiction.  [15:27] When asked if there’s such a thing as too much mental toughness, Andreas acknowledged the danger of a “machismo mentality.” While grit is valuable, it can become toxic when it turns into blind persistence that sacrifices well-being.  [19:04] One of Andreas’s most powerful insights came when Jim quoted him: “The entity cannot be more important than the humans that support it.” He critiqued the “performance trap,” where results are prioritized over ethical behavior and people. Andreas advocates for a shift in culture—focusing on the process, the mindset, and the individuals who drive performance, rather than just the outcome. [24:08] When AI came up in the conversation, Andreas compared it to any high-performance tool: not a replacement for humans, but a servant to human potential. He envisions AI helping people fine-tune their focus, regulate emotions, and stay resilient by providing real-time, personalized feedback.  [31:18] And remember...“Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.” - Thomas Jefferson Quotable Quotes "So existential positive psychology says, yes, be proactive, work on your strengths. However, that trauma, stress, adversity that you go through, it has the potential for growth." "Even in your darkest hour, there could be something that could help you grow and become better human." "So we’re not looking for adversity just to look for adversity... we need to take them through the process that would lead them to put them in a better position to be successful towards those goals." "Mental toughness is a multiplier." "The mentally tough mindset is purposeful, which means you know where you're going. There's direction, and there's energy towards those goals as a purposefulness." "The mentally tough mindset has efficiency, which means there's a congruency between your behaviors and your goals. Otherwise, they're just dreams." — "When you have a goal in order to achieve that goal, there are behaviors that you need to do in order to achieve that goal. Behind that one step before that is the mindset." “mental toughness is a personal construction. There’s no team mental toughness. It’s. It’s something that you have to work on yourself. I don’t see it as something that necessarily is negative. I see it as empowering."   “an actual real mentally tough person can work with conflicting goals, that’s how we say, or interest."   "So metrics start to, in a way, overshadow mindset and then the behavior becomes transactional. So that’s the performance trap. So we reward results even if they were achieved unethically or unsustainably, and we punish failure even if the process was sound and value aligned and we did the best we could under the circumstances. But the truth is this. Outcomes are variable. Markets shift, opponents adjust, life throws curveballs. But mindset can be trained, stabilized, and eventually applied across all of it."   “When the standard, people know what's expected from them, no matter the result, the culture becomes behavior driven and value based and performance becomes more consistent and stress goes down."   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Facebook | LinkedIn | Instagram |

In this Mastermind episode of The Leadership Podcast, General Stanley McChrystal returns for a third conversation—his most personal and revealing appearance yet. Stan discusses the defining choices in his life, the moments that shaped his character, and the values that continue to guide his leadership. He talks about how his parents influenced his values through action, not words, and how his mother’s sudden death when he was sixteen changed the trajectory of his life and family.   Stan shares his experience including near-expulsion from West Point, and another in his early Special Forces days when he learned that trying to be liked is not the same as leading well.  Stan describes what it was like to work under leaders who lacked character, and how those experiences helped him define the kind of leader he never wanted to become. He discusses how having strong peers and a grounded spouse helped him stay true to his principles, even in environments where it was easy to lose direction. Stan shares how aging has narrowed his circle and sharpened his expectations for friendship. He also talks about how his views on war have evolved.  He argues that true change in leadership and values may require discomfort or even crisis to take root. Stan shares why he believes society needs shared standards again—not to suppress individuality, but to maintain mutual respect and unity.  Whether you’re a young professional, a seasoned leader, or someone thinking about the legacy you want to leave, this episode will challenge you to reflect. Stan reminds us that we’re not passengers in our own development. We can choose the kind of leader we want to be. You can find this mastermind episode wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Key Takeaways [04:05] Stan shared how the foundation of his character was quietly built at home. His father, a combat infantryman, was steady and soft-spoken—the kind of man young Stan wanted to emulate. His mother, a thoughtful Southern woman, modeled integrity and social conviction. Stan said, “They never sat us down and talked to us about values… they just lived in a way that you thought, well, that’s the right way to go.” [07:11] Stan reflected on the emotional toll of losing his mother at 16. Her sudden death shook the entire family and deeply impacted his father, who, despite being a general and a warrior, visibly broke down.  [09:01] When asked how he became the person he is today, Stan talked about trying on different leadership personas. He once tried being the “hard-ass” and even channeled General Patton, only to discover none of them fit. Eventually, through reflection and mistakes, he said, “At some point, there is a you, and you’ve got to sort of figure out what that is.” [11:43] Stan admitted that he came dangerously close to being expelled from West Point. It’s a story he laughs about now, but he acknowledged that if he hadn’t graduated, “we would not be laughing about it now.” [13:01] One of Stan’s earliest moral tests came during Ranger School. Exhausted and frustrated with a peer leader, Stan and a few others simply refused to follow orders. “There was a right and wrong… and we did the wrong thing,” he confessed. He’s carried the shame of that moment ever since, not because of the person they disrespected—but because he remembers what he did. [15:20] Stan looked back on his time as a young Special Forces lieutenant and admitted that he tried too hard to be liked. Over time, he learned that leadership isn’t about popularity—it’s about standards and setting the tone. A pivotal leadership lesson came when Stan was publicly fired by a seasoned commander after making a cocky remark in a meeting. “I’ve decided relieving you is wrong,” the major later told him. “You’re going to stay here, and I’m going to teach you to be an Army officer.” That humbling moment became a turning point—one Stan says he was lucky to receive. [20:19] Early in his career, Stan served under a battalion commander who taught him how not to lead. “He humiliated himself,” Stan realized, after being screamed at during a march. Later, that same leader quietly reenlisted an unfit soldier just to hit a metric—an act that shattered any remaining trust. “You don’t need a lot of examples like that to say: I will never do that.” [24:04] When asked if a public figure ever failed the character test, Stan said yes—and the disappointment stuck. “You start to say, well, if they’re really good at what they do, is it okay they do things they shouldn’t?” His answer: No. “Everybody’s got weaknesses… but there are bounds of acceptability,” and if someone crosses them, he simply steps away. [26:20] Stan shared that as he’s gotten older, his circle has gotten smaller. “I actually have a very small number of friends,” he said. While he’s become less judgmental, he’s also more selective. “I’m going to have people that I really respect and like—because that’s who makes me respect myself.” [27:50] Reflecting on whether younger people can shortcut the wisdom that comes with age, Stan emphasized the power of reading. Books like Once an Eagle offered different lessons at each stage of life. “Life is nuances forever,” he said, and engaging with deep, thoughtful material can guide us when experience hasn’t caught up yet. [28:54] Stan talked candidly about how his views on war have evolved. “Wars don’t actually solve the problem that we hope they will,” he said. After seeing combat firsthand, he became more cautious. But he also noted how those who sacrifice gain legitimacy in shaping national decisions. “They now felt legitimate,” he said of Israeli soldiers after Gaza—ready to sit at the table. [34:13] Stan’s call for a national conversation on character is rooted in concern for our systems. “We’ve let character erode,” he said. Good people enter politics and emerge changed—warped by the system’s demands. He doesn’t believe politicians will lead this movement. “It’ll start in schools, on teams, in churches,” he said. “Most of you are not being the people you even want to be.” [38:11] On the question of whether pain is necessary for change, Stan said plainly, “Yes, I think there has to be more pain.” He saw it during the transformation of JSOC—reform only came during failure. While he believes powerful leaders could spark change, he warned, “The history of very powerful leaders is you get something you don’t want.” [39:35] Stan acknowledged the tension between individuality and unity. “There need to be standards of decorum,” he said. He isn’t advocating for hats and skirts, but for shared norms that show respect. “The society doesn’t work without some kinds of rules,” he warned—rules that give us common ground. [42:18] Stan offered this insight: “Who you are is not an accident… make it intentional.” He believes we each have agency over our convictions and our discipline. His advice to young people: “Expect to stumble, expect to make mistakes… but move toward who you want to be. Don’t drift.” [45:07] And remember...“I think. Therefore I am.” - René Descartes Quotable Quotes “A leader is not an individual rock that everybody comes around. It’s a group of people, and you reinforce each other.” “Everybody’s got weaknesses… but there are bounds of acceptability.” "Leadership is never about the leader. It's about the mission, the people, and the values we refuse to compromise." “Life has nuances forever.” “Wars don’t actually solve the problem that we hope that they will.” “Who you are is not an accident. That just happens.” “Make decisions on who you want to be and then move toward that.” “Expect to stumble, expect to make mistakes.” "Why do we allow politicians to lie to us when we know they're lying and they know we know it? Why do we put up with that?" “Becoming who you want to be starts with deciding what that is.” “Character is the only metric that matters.” "You may not control your physical surroundings, but you control your mind." “Reaching our convictions demands deep reflection.” “The most critical discipline is to think for ourselves.”   Books mentioned in this episode:   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | General Stanley McChrystal Website | General Stanley McChrystal X | General Stanley McChrystal LinkedIn | Facebook |

Sabina Nawaz is a top-tier executive coach who works closely with C-suite leaders and teams in Fortune 500 companies, government organizations, nonprofits, and universities globally. She’s also the author of “You're the Boss: Become the Manager You Want to Be (and Others Need).” In this episode, Sabina discusses how power can distort perception, making leaders unaware of how they’re coming across. She explains that the biggest barrier is often unacknowledged pressure, which leads to reactive behavior like micromanagement or overusing authority.  She reveals how pressure can distort perception and lead to behaviors that harm both leaders and their teams. Sabina also dives into the tension between being approachable and maintaining authority, highlighting the importance of vulnerability and listening to others.  She offers advice for leaders feeling overwhelmed, encouraging them to make time for "blank space" and reflect on their capacity before taking on more.   For leaders looking to navigate the pressures of leadership and improve their effectiveness, this episode provides valuable insights on self-awareness, authority, and creating space for growth. You can find episode 464 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube |   Key Takeaways [04:18] Sabina shared how returning from parental leave led her into high-pressure meetings, causing her to shift from a supportive manager to a micromanager. A colleague’s comment about someone crying because of her behavior made her reflect: "It’s not power that corrupts—it’s pressure." [06:53] Sabina warned against burnout from constant pressure. She advises high performers to set boundaries and practice “blank space”—two hours each week to unplug and just be. [08:51] Sabina emphasized the importance of balancing authority with empathy. She advocates for the “shut up muscle,” where leaders wait to speak, allowing others to contribute first. [13:30] Sabina cautioned against claiming self-awareness. She encourages leaders to notice signs of power gaps, such as lack of independent feedback, as a way to improve awareness. [18:05] Sabina stressed that leaders should model vulnerability and avoid toxic positivity. Admitting struggles allows others to do the same, creating a more authentic work environment.She explained that leaders who hide their emotions prevent others from expressing theirs. Being open about one’s own feelings fosters human connection, despite potential misinterpretation. [24:24] Sabina addressed the myth of bad bosses, stating that it’s often pressure-induced behavior that causes leadership struggles. Leaders should adapt by reassessing how their strengths are perceived.Sabina urged leaders to reflect on how their strengths might be misunderstood under pressure. For example, “strategic” can be seen as manipulative and “calm” as disinterested. [28:03] Sabina highlighted the importance of reading signs from others and adjusting leadership behavior to avoid negative patterns and fit new responsibilities.Sabina shared a success story of a difficult leader who transformed by practicing restraint, slowing her pace, and valuing others’ ideas—earning praise as the “best boss.” [31:07] Sabina emphasized that coaching should come from genuine curiosity, not as an exit strategy. Only when leaders are willing to grow does true transformation happen. [32:32] Sabina offered a quick self-diagnosis tool from her book to spot “power gaps and pressure pitfalls,” with reflective prompts like: “Are you the only one coming up with ideas?” [34:51] And remember... Know Thyself - Socrates   Quotable Quotes "It is not power that corrupts. It is pressure that corrupts us."  "Our default reaction to pressure is to hunker down and do more, more, more, more busier. But you know what? The 24-hour clock timer is going to die at some point." – "There are many ways to skin the cat. There are many ways to get something right and to accomplish something." – Sabina Nawaz "The first, second, maybe the third, fourth or fifth person to speak... Let others speak first because the minute you speak, no one else is going to debate that."  "Self awareness is a never ending quest." "If somebody says they're self aware, they're not." "If someone says they're selfless, all I care about is everybody else... it's probably the opposite." "The more open you can channel yourself as the more people... It gives people permission to come to you and connect with you, human to human." "Be mindful of how you do that openness. And would you rather they're going to make up stories about you regardless whether you say something or you don't?" “It's more about diagnosing which specific aspect of bad boss behaviors are coming out in you when the pressure comes, the inevitable pressure comes in to corrupt you.  But then it goes back to, you can't do any of that if you are not self aware.” "There is no such thing as a purely bad or purely good boss."   This is the book mentioned in this book   Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Sabina Nawaz Website | Sabina Nawaz LinkedIn | Sabina Nawaz Instagram |