The Digital Agency Growth Podcast

Looking to build a repeatable, referral-focus biz dev system inside of your agency?Check out our new video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine--What if successful agency business development isn't about having the perfect system, but about showing up consistently in the right conversations?John Caruso is the Director of Business Development at Vendilli, where he's spent the last six years navigating the messy reality of agency growth. With a decade of BD experience spanning traditional and digital agencies, John has learned that there's no magic formula, just consistent effort in the right places. In this conversation, he shares the unglamorous truth about what BD actually looks like day-to-day, why agency owners set their BD hires up to fail by expecting results too quickly, and how he learned the craft by sitting in dozens upon dozens of sales meetings with his team. What You'll Leave With:The realistic timeline for a BD hire to become truly effective at an agencyHow to structure your day when client needs constantly derail your plansWhy sitting in sales meetings with experienced agency owners builds BD skills faster than any courseThe "shortlist" dynamic that determines whether prospects even consider your agencyHow to think about the division between marketing and sales activitiesWhat systems need to exist before bringing on a dedicated BD personAn education-first approach to staying top of mind without being pushyTimestamps:[00:00] Introduction: John's journey from traditional to digital agency BD[02:30] The reality of a day in the life of agency business development[05:40] What activities consistently drive revenue for agencies[10:30] Why getting on prospect "shortlists" matters more than perfect positioning[15:45] Moving beyond transactional referral requests[20:15] How the BD landscape has shifted over the past decade[28:34] What needs to be in place before hiring a BD person[29:04] The learning curve: why it takes 6-9 months minimum to see results[31:10] How Vendilli divides marketing and sales responsibilities[33:25] Where to learn more about John and VendilliVendelli: https://www.vendilli.com/ John on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johncaruso-vendilli/

Here's what nobody tells you about referrals: the real value isn't the introduction, it's identifying who will keep referring you for years.In this episode, Dan breaks down why the classic "let me know if you know anyone who needs our services" approach fails almost every time, and walks through a systematic process for turning your existing network into a consistent source of warm introductions, tastefully. What You'll Leave With:Why asking "know anyone who might need our services?" puts massive cognitive load on your contacts (and what to ask instead)The three biggest referral mistakes agency owners make and how each one sabotages your resultsHow vertical vs. horizontal relationships determine whether someone will refer you The specific ask process: transitioning from categories of people to named individuals your connector actually knowsA practical approach to mapping your LinkedIn network for "referral ready connectors" without spamWhy strategic partnerships should be prototyped through referrals first, not started with commission structuresHow to think about the time investment: high-touch, high-leverage vs. volume plays that don't fit specialized agencies Resources Are you an upmarket-focused agency interested in setting up a referral-based new business system?  Lets talk - go here for details: https://hey.salesschema.com/referral-engine-lp

New Video Training.Referrals already work for your agency, but you've never optimized them.  Learn how in our latest video training: https://hey.salesschema.com/opt-in-mw-referral-engine --This year-end review distills the most important lessons from a year of conversations with agency owners, researchers, and growth experts who've been in the trenches.What You'll Leave With:Why trust has replaced awareness and differentiation as the scarce resource in agency growthThe counterintuitive sales-to-delivery handoff that makes closing easier (even though it seems expensive)How to move referrals from passive hope to systematic pipeline generationThe difference between economic headwinds as obstacles versus excusesWhy specialization is no longer a debate but table stakes for competitive agenciesThe rise of agency perspective An under-discussed macro trend that could reshape entire marketing niches over the next few yearsEpisodes Referenced:  -Nick Petroski: https://salesschema.com/the-data-you-need-before-you-build-your-2026-biz-dev-plan-with-nick-petroski/-Brooke MacLean: https://salesschema.com/how-brooke-maclean-built-an-80-person-agency-with-zero-debt/-Brock Murray: https://salesschema.com/scaling-past-50-employees-how-seo-plus-built-a-global-agency/-Spencer Gallagher: -Stewart Gandolf:  https://salesschema.com/lessons-from-building-an-eight-figure-niche-agency-stewart-gandolf/-Erik J. Olson:  https://salesschema.com/erik-j-olson-on-why-most-agencies-plateau-and-how-to-build-one-that-grows-predictably/-Stephen Woessner: https://salesschema.com/stephen-woessner-on-the-smile-graph-ais-impact-on-agencies/-Karl Sakas: https://salesschema.com/karl-sakas-on-scaling-smart-and-reclaiming-your-time/-Todd Gagne: https://salesschema.com/karl-sakas-on-scaling-smart-and-reclaiming-your-time/

Chances are referrals work for your agency.  Maybe they're the only thing that ever has.  But you've never optimized them.  [Note: this is an encore of an episode originally aired 12/3/25]. If your agency is stuck in "the Cobbler's Children phase", where you deliver great work for clients but new business feels chaotic and reactive, this episode offers a way out. I'm sharing my referral workshop from the All In Agency Summit, condensed from 60 to 30 minutes of pure strategy. This isn't about random networking or hoping referrals happen. It's about installing a repeatable system that generates 2-5 targeted introductions weekly without cold outreach spam or burning out your team. What You'll Leave With:The four-level agency maturity model and how to identify which phase you're actually inWhy the 2020 shift made trust—not awareness—the scarce resource in B2B salesThe high school gym versus NFL stadium test for choosing the right lead gen strategy based on your market sizeA two-pronged outreach approach that keeps your pipeline full even when you're wearing too many hatsThe simple emotional game-changer that gets introductions to actually happen instead of sitting in limboThe one data tool you need to get started without expensive SaaS platformsWhy asking for referrals is actually a positive-sum game that benefits everyone involvedHow to systematize client referrals so your account team generates opportunities automaticallyThe sprint-to-marathon framework that proves this approach scales beyond your immediate network

if you're using the holiday break to plan for a strong Q1, this conversation will reshape how you think about pipeline. [this is an Encore Episode originally aired December 3, 2025]Nick Petroski, founder of Promethean Research and the industry's go-to source for agency market data, spent years studying what actually drives growth for digital agencies. Not best practices or guru advice, but real numbers from real shops.What he found challenges conventional wisdom. The agencies getting the most predictable growth aren't the ones with the slickest outbound machines, they're the ones who've built systems around relationships they already have. Nick breaks down the ownership gaps, comp structures, and tactical frameworks that separate random referrals from repeatable revenue. If you're heading into 2026 wondering whether your pipeline issues are a "you" problem or a market problem, this conversation will help you see which levers you actually control.What You'll Leave With:-The "is it me or the market?" framework for diagnosing your real pipeline problems-Why shrinking total addressable markets make relationship-based growth less optional and more strategic-How to structure account manager compensation to drive growth, not just retention (70-30 vs 60-40 splits explained)-A tactical approach for asking clients for specific introductions without feeling pushy or salesy-Why your Fortune 500 "locked down" account might actually be your biggest referral opportunity-The consultative mindset shift that makes asking for referrals feel like service, not sales-How to identify which accounts actually have referral potential worth pursuingMentioned Resources / Links:-Video Training: How to Scale Your Agency with Systematic Referrals and Strategic Partnerships (30 min)-From Random to Repeatable: The Digital Agency Referral Playbook - Nick's research report on systematizing referrals

What actually drives agency growth when pipelines are noisy, buyers are skeptical, and everyone sounds the same?In this episode, Dan Englander sits down with Alex Marshall, a longtime agency growth leader with two decades of experience across holding companies and independents, to unpack what really moves the needle. They explore why trust and relevance matter more than tactics, how storytelling shows up late in the sales cycle, and why relationships compound over time even when results aren’t immediate.This is a grounded conversation about growth as a discipline, not a hack. 🧭 What You’ll LearnThe real differences between growth at holding companies vs independentsWhy agency specialization can both help and hurt salesHow storytelling works after the first sales callWhy “just checking in” emails failWhat actually reactivates dormant or boomerang clientsHow to stay relevant to skeptical CMOsWhy relationship-building beats short-term metricsHow agencies should think about referrals and alliances🕒 Timestamps00:00 – Alex’s background and global agency experience  04:30 – Holding companies vs independents: growth tradeoffs 06:00 – Relationship-building across regions and cultures 10:20 – When specialization helps — and when it limits you 16:45 – Storytelling as a sales tool, not just marketing 20:40 – Coalition-building in complex B2B sales 23:30 – Re-engaging dormant and boomerang clients 26:40 – Why timing and relevance matter more than frequency 29:20 – Managing time across the full funnel 32:10 – Measuring progress without over-relying on metrics 35:00 – Selling to skeptical CMOs in uncertain markets 38:00 – Why referrals and trust compound over time 41:00 – Strategic partnerships and being “something to someone” 45:45 – Making referral asks easier — and more effective

What if the agencies that crush Q1 aren't working harder in January, they're making one  or two critical decisions right now, in December?In this solo episode, Dan reveals why Q1 consistently catches agencies off-guard and what separates those who stumble into the new year from those who hit the ground running. The secret isn't about working through the holidays or setting ambitious goals—it's about installing a systematic referral system during Q4's quieter moments. What You'll Leave With:Why trust, not awareness, became the scarce resource after 2020 and how it changes your approachThe four stages agencies move through and how to identify which phase you're stuck inThe "high school gym vs. NFL stadium" test for choosing the right lead generation strategy based on market sizeHow to structure connector calls to get 2-5 quality referrals from a single conversationThe simple human emotion that makes people actually follow through on promised introductionsA two-pronged outreach system that keeps your pipeline full even when you're buried in client workWhy making it easier for people to help you eliminates the awkwardness of asking for referralsThe one free data tool you need to get started without expensive SaaS platformsTimestamps:[00:00] Introduction: The strange Q4 gap period and what's coming[02:33] The Cobbler's children phase and why most agencies get stuck there[05:00] The four stages of agency growth and how they're detached from revenue[09:15] The 2020 trust recession and why cold outreach stopped working[12:30] High school gym vs. NFL stadium: Choosing the right strategy for your market[16:45] The systematic referral framework: How to generate warm intros weekly[21:20] Structuring connector calls to get 2-5 referrals per conversation[24:10] The emotional game changer that makes introductions actually happen[27:17] Common objections: "This seems like too much work" and "I'm worried about asking for help"[29:35] How this scales beyond your initial network (sprint, jog, run phases)[31:54] The Referral Engine Program and Referral Network Diagnostic offerQuotes: "A lot of agencies end up in level two, which we call the Cobbler's children phase. They have a track record, they've produced results for clients, but new business is very reactive—it's very much catch as catch can." — Dan Englander"After 2020, we saw a massive shift. Trust became the scarce resource, not awareness. Everyone's inbox is full, everyone's LinkedIn is saturated, and people have gotten really good at tuning out anything that feels like cold outreach." — Dan Englander"If you're getting on a call a day—like an apple a day keeps the doctor away—or five calls a week, that is usually more than enough to hit 99% of sales goals." — Dan Englander

Nicholas Petroski, the founder of Promethean Research and author of crucial resources for digital agencies, joins the discussion to highlight the vital role of referrals in shaping 2026 business development strategies. He emphasizes the need for data-driven planning and reveals insights on why many agencies still approach referrals passively. Petroski shares actionable advice on who should own the referral process, the dangers of relying on a few sources for introductions, and how to operationalize a strong referral system to drive account growth effectively.

Michael Maximoff, co-founder of Belkins and Folderly, shares insights from over a decade in B2B lead generation. He discusses the evolution of outreach strategies, emphasizing the shift from high-volume cold pitches to signal-driven, trust-based approaches. With inbox competition soaring, he highlights the need for precision and relationship building, especially for smaller TAMs. Michael also recommends that sales and marketing collaborate closely to enhance conversions and suggests hiring full-cycle account executives for mid-market deals.

In this episode, Dan Englander sits down with Garrett Jestice, former CMO and founder of Prelude, to unpack how to turn that randomness into a repeatable Go-To-Market (GTM) system that actually compounds.Garrett helps B2B agencies and service businesses replace scattered marketing efforts with a focused GTM strategy built on customer proof — clarifying audience, offer, messaging, and channels so growth stops being a guessing game.They break down why most agencies start with the wrong things (channels before clarity), how to pick the right market segment, and how to make growth repeatable without losing focus or burning resources. What You’ll LearnWhy most agencies get stuck after $1M — and how to fix itThe four foundations of a real GTM system: Audience, Offer, Messaging, ChannelsHow to pick one market segment and own it (without overthinking TAM)Why you can’t scale custom work — and what to do insteadThe “maintenance and support” offer that helped one agency grow fasterWhen to productize vs. stay bespokeHow to make referrals and warm intros systematic, not luckyWhy every audience–offer combo needs its own GTM strategyHow to align sales, marketing, and delivery around the same message