VO BOSS

Being a boss isn't just about calling the shots, it's a delicate balancing act that requires continuous learning, effective people management, and navigating the complexities of business growth. Anne & Lau unpack the multifaceted nature of being a BOSS - the responsibilities, the challenges, the triumphs, and everything in between. Listen in as they share their personal experiences and insights on managing people, mastering outsourcing, and balancing the dynamics of a growing business. You'll learn the significance of industry education, the art of hiring the right people, and the need for continuous learning and adaptability. Plus, they delve into the essential elements of establishing strong relationships with clients and colleagues. This is a conversation you won't want to miss, so tune in and let's learn how to truly embrace being a BOSS… Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the BOSS Superpower series. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with the one and only, most beautiful, lovely Lau Lapides. Lau: Oh, thank you. Miss Anne. Love you right back. Yay. Anne: Ohh. You know, Lau. I had such a week. Oh my gosh. It is so tough to be a BOSS. I'm just saying. Lau: Ugh. It is. It is. You have to give that a little accent, because that was such a week. Was it a week? It was a week. It was a week. It was a week, a week from Weekland. Anne: I Had such a week. Lau: Such a week. Anne: Trying to, being a BOSS. Lau: Oy, tell me about your week. Tell me about it. Anne: The VO BOSS. Okay, so that was my poor rendition of (laughs) VO BOSS. So being a VO BOSS, you know what? There's so many different types of BOSSes. So I thought it would be a good thing to talk about today, all the different hats that we wear being BOSSes and all the, as you mentioned before, the plates that need to be kept spinning in the air. And those of you who are maybe just getting into this, or if you're into this, realize that you're not alone. We're all spinning plates, and it's one big, crazy, wonderful world of being a BOSS. All these things that I never anticipated having to do when I initially thought, oh, I'm gonna go into voiceover. Lau: Oh, totally. You know? Oh, you don't know anything. I mean, that's the beauty of it, is like if you knew everything, you wouldn't go into it. So it's better. Anne: Probably. Lau: Ignorance is bliss, right? In a way. Anne: Probably. Lau: But do you ever literally have vertigo? Like sometimes I literally, at night, I'll sit down, and the room is spinning, and I'm like, why is the room spinning? It's like so many things are entering -- Anne: Could've been those drinks you had, Lau. I'm just kidding. (laughs). Lau: It could be like, listen, I should drink -- Anne: Vodka, you. No (laughs). Lau: I should drink. I would be able to see straight. But it's just like so many layers of stuff happening in your mind that literally you get dizzy from it. I get dizzy from it. Anne: It's funny because I said to -- as I was having a meeting with my assistants the other day -- I said, God, it's hard to be a BOSS. Like, I thought, oh, it's gonna be wonderful going into business for myself, and, and it is. Trust me, I would have it no other way. I've decided that I could never, ever work for someone again outside of an a guest position, like a guest director, that kind of thing. But I just can't work for someone again. But being a BOSS, there's so many responsibilities that you have to take on that you may have never even thought of. And they're scary. Right? Because did I have any experience setting up an S-corp? Did I have any experience hiring employees or firing employees? Things that you just didn't -- in the beginning, did I have any experience negotiating outside of being in the store with my — by the way, my father, my father, every place he went, he tried to bargain. He tried to bargain the deal. He would go into Sears. Okay, Sears is not around much anymore, but I think Sears is online. Lau: (laughs). I love Sears. Anne: But he would go into Sears, like just the retail store, and he'd just, anything he bought, he'd try to, he tried to bargain them down. I mean, it was hysterical. It used to drive my mother crazy, but all the negotiation, I had no idea. Right? No idea how to negotiate, no idea how to set up accounting for my business. Lau: Yeah. They're hardcore skill sets that we're not, I mean, to be perfectly honest with you, if you're in undergrad, if you're in graduate school, if you go to a conservatory, if you're going to a training studio, they all kind of fall under a similar umbrella in that they're not offering a lot of business training. And so you're really kind of thrown out as a actor in the world thrown out to figure out, how do I do this? Whether I'm a working talent or whether I own a company, how do I figure out all the components that have to make that company really successful? And the truth is, a lot of us end up taking years and years piecing it together, like our own apprentice, and getting people to train with and train under, to figure out what I need to not just survive, but also thrive in the business and get to the level at which we're getting to. Anne: Absolutely. And even if you outsource, right? Let's just say you're a creative. I know a lot of creatives that come into it. They're like, okay, so this is great, I got my demo, (laughs). Then they're like, why am I not getting any work? Well, because you need to proceed on with the business, right? We need to do marketing, we need to do outreach. We need to reach out to potential clients and get the work. And then once we get the work, we have to figure out how to negotiate a fair price. Or if we're working with an agent, we have to get that agent. How are we going to bill them? And then once we bill them, how are we gonna make sure that they pay us? And then when they pay us, we gonna make sure we're taking out enough taxes for the end of the year, right, so that we can pay our taxes at the end of the year? So, so many different pieces and components. And I think for me, as a voice talent first starting out, before I really branched off and started coaching and started VO Peeps and VO bus, I had to survive and get through all of that, which I believe most everybody has to kind of experience on their own. Even if you outsource for things, right, for editing, for accounting, you have to understand the business in order to know how to manage the people that you are hiring to help you with the business. Right? Because otherwise, you're kind of just sitting there in the dark and people could take advantage of you, or you're just not gonna understand how your business works or the things that need to get done. So I think first and foremost, being a BOSS requires education, education, education. Oh my gosh, from the start. Lau: Yes. You have said the magic words, and you have to give yourself enough expertise to understand how to find experts, if that makes any sense. And I, I oftentimes would get frustrated saying, but wait, do I have to be a graphic designer in order to design for a designer for my website? And to some degree, yes, you do. To some degree, yes, you do. You can't run on an assumption that if I have enough money to invest, and I hire this person or this team, that they actually know what they're doing. You cannot assume that, do not assume it. And I will say, not to be a negative Nelly, but just to be a realist in the moment, most of the time they don't. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And so it doesn't mean to be overly critical, it just means to have the education behind you to say, well, I sat in on some courses, I took some seminars. Anne: Yeah. Lau: I did some homework in the industry, and I have a sense of what a marketing person does. I have an idea of what a designer would do for a website. I have these ideas that I can be a partner, not a subordinate in my own business, but a partner in crime to really make that vision happen. Don't sit back and be passive and say, well, I'm hiring an accountant, and they should know you'll do it. Anne: Exactly. Lau: You have to know what an expense is. You have to know what a write-off is. You have to know, as you said, how to save for your quarterly taxes. Otherwise, you're gonna get stuck at the end saying, wow, I'm the loser in this because I didn't do the homework in understanding what my due diligence is in this process, I just completely put it in the whole basket of that professional who, sometimes they're great, but they still are not gonna know everything and about our industry. Anne: Oh my gosh, yes. And honestly, I will say that for myself, being the tech girl that I am, being, the fact that years ago I taught, let's just, here's an example, marketing, ads, Google Ads, Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, they've changed. Right? And so when I recently -- well, not recently, it was about a year ago or two years ago, I went to go hire someone to do Google Ads for me. Oh my goodness. So I didn't have a concept of what Google Ads needed at the time. Right? So how was I able to hire a qualified person to create ads for me, manage ads for me, and run them for me, and then charge me. Right? And I will say, I am the first person to say that I did not educate myself enough. I found someone who, sworn up and down, good references, good resource, that was supposed to be a wonderful person that could handle my Google Ads for me. And they did not work out at all for me. I got no return on my investment, and I lost money. And so that alone, right, that risk that you're taking when you're hiring somebody or outsourcing somebody to help you run your business, that first of all takes courage. And that's a scary thing. And so educating yourself about what you need and the general outline -- like, if I need an accountant, what is that accountant gonna have to do for me? They're gonna have to balance my monthly checkbook. They're gonna have to import data from my banking accounts. We're gonna have to categorize that. So understand that you need to do these things, and then you're gonna have to manage the person that's working for you. And remember, and this is probably one of the toughest things I have, multiple assistants. Assistants are human, right? Human people have bad days. Right? And if there's a bad day, or more than a bad day, or it turns out to be something where it's not helping you in your business, you're going to have to address that. And that's not necessarily a technical thing that you have to know or learn about, but that is people management. And oh my goodness, Lau. I don't know. Can you take a class on people management (laughs)? Lau: Well, you know, they have whole degrees on management. They certainly have whole graduate degrees. But I'm here to tell you, and not to say that those are not worth taking part in, they could be. Anne: Yeah. Lau: But I'm here to tell you, I am from the school of Old Knocks, and the School of Living Life from -- Anne: Hard knocks. Lau: Hard knocks. And nothing you learn in school, number one, in a year or two will be obsolete, a lot of it. But number two can match what happens, the class, versus the real life. Nothing can match the nuances and complexities and sophistication and complication of dealing with people every day. And anyone who's in any kind of business will agree with that one. It is amazing, the skillsets that you need to accrue. Anne: Oh goodness, yes. Lau: The more diversity, the more skillsets, (laughs). Anne: And you know, we always encourage outsourcing, right? To be a BOSS, go ahead. Outsource those things that don't bring you joy. Outsource those things that allow you to market yourself more. If you love being in the booth and you want more jobs in the booth, hire someone to help you market. But make sure that you know enough about that marketing and enough about managing that person so that they can truly help you grow. And so that when you do get more work, right, you're gonna be able to complete that as intended. And if it doesn't work out, I think one of the hardest things for me has been firing somebody. That's a tough thing. That might be the toughest thing I've had to do, is fire people. And that is, whew. I'll tell you, that mentally is draining.(laughs). You know, not so much like if somebody's not performing as you feel, I think letting them go. And then I think the decent thing to do is to connect up with them and talk to them as you're letting them go. I don't wanna just ghost people or do it via a text or an email. Dealing with that is very, very tough. So BOSSes, if you are outsourcing, make sure you know enough about the topic or whatever it is that you're outsourcing so that you can manage the person. And if that person doesn't work out, make sure that you have the courage and you will develop people skills probably. It doesn't make it easier, I don't think. I always hate letting somebody go. It's not a pleasant thing to do. Lau: No, it's a hard one. It's a really hard one, especially if you're a people pleaser and you love to get along with people. It's a very difficult one. And another one is, and this is old school management versus a lot of new school theory, in that management does not mean everything is hands off and laissez-faire where you can walk away and take lunch all day and everyone will do everything for you. It is always, in my mind, a hands on skillset and craft that you need to be unafraid and assertive about your team being on top of what's going on, having them know that you know what's going on, the psychology that is important. But walking a fine line between over controlling and being -- Anne: Yeah. Micromanaging. Lau: — called founder syndrome, that's the founder of the company not willing to budge and let go of old ways and old philosophies. How we balance that as managers of saying, well, yes, I started, I've grown. I have a philosophy and a model in this direction, but I wanna learn, I wanna pivot, I wanna grow. And knowing the difference -- here's one of the best ones I can give to your, to the audience. One of the best ones is know the difference between the people that are static — in other words, they were great at a certain timeframe — and others that are your growth people. They're the people that are gonna help you grow to the next place. Not everyone is that. And when we have an unrealistic expectation and get upset that this person is not moving with us, they're not shaping us, they're not shape shifting, they're not leading us, well, they're not meant to. They're not great at that. That's not why they're there. This other person you're bringing in, because they're great at that. That's what they do. They're there to take you to the next level. And know the difference between the two. Anne: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a give and a take. Right? I mean, just because you are the boss doesn't mean that you are the be all, all knowing. And so I, I really find that there's such a delicate balance between happy people, happy employees, business grows. I really believe in keeping employees happy. And to do that, you have to pay them fairly. That's number one. And again, that's another mind twist for BOSSes who are starting out thinking, well, gosh, I don't have the money. A lot of what I hear on a daily basis is, I don't have the finances. I don't have the finances to invest. But yet still, if you don't have the finances to invest, I don't believe in your growth, in your company's growth, you're not gonna grow. And what are we here for? I mean, (laughs). I just feel like there's got to be a reason that you want to grow in your career and grow your business. And so there has to be that mental education that you have for yourself that allows you to make that investment, but also trust in the people. Like hire people that can help you grow. I love the static and the growth people, and also, a back and forth listening to those people, because I don't know everything. Right? I hire people that make me look better. Right? Hire people that make you look good, and you can help them look good as well. I think it's a give and a take. And I think it's always like, if you hire people who are even better than you, I think that's really something to aspire to. I wanna hire somebody, obviously I wanna hire somebody that's better at me in accounting, because that's why I need accounting help. Right? I want somebody who's the expert, who's the best in that. And I wanna encourage them to want to work for me or work with me to help grow my company. So how am I incentivizing? Lau: And you know, just realize that as you manage people, people, whether they're a contractor and they're coming and going, doing a one-off job for you, or if they're an employee and they're there on a consistent basis, I always run by the philosophy of, I wanna build them up. I wanna grow them and spring them up. Versus rip them down and tear them down. And I'll tell you, I oftentimes say this from some folks that I have worked with in the past, and I think to myself, quietly I think, if they had money and they had power, they would be super dangerous. Because they don't know how to manage people, and they would become tyrannical. And it's very easy to slide into a zone where I'm powerful, I'm omnipotent, I have money, I'm successful, I'm this, I'm that. Now the ego can't get through the door. The ego is larger than life. No one can tell me I'm wrong. No one can show me anything else. Anne: Right. Lau: A lot of dictators, we see this in the acting world, especially in academia, a lot of theater professors and people who are tenured, who can't be touched over years and years and years can become very, very tyrannical in nature and just rip to shreds those actors. And so I always had a concerted effort in the front of my mind, not that I have a nature for that, but don't ever go down that path. Always stay humble, stay kind, stay open to education, and just know that I don't know everything. There's so much you don't know. You're always learning -- Anne: Absolutely. Lau: — learning and learning. But keep your awareness up. If someone is trying to take advantage of you or someone is treating you a certain way that's uncomfortable or inappropriate, put your foot down. Be articulate. Let them know that. Like, don't let them walk all over you. And so it's a very fine line to stay right in the middle, right in that diplomatic middle place. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Where you're strong and you have an anchor and you have a state of mind, but you are open, you're kind, you're pivoting and you're learning and just sort of moving back and forth. Anne: I think some of the most powerful people in business, and of course I've had, outside of the VO industry, I've had experiences obviously before I came into the voiceover industry. But I also try to make a point to really get outside my bubble and experience -- especially with my clients, right? I want to go into their world. I think some of the smartest and most powerful people that I have met have been ones who don't act like they know it all and actively say, I don't know it all. Or I wish I could answer that right now. What I think is this. And I truly believe those are the people that I'm like, wow. Like, wow. You just don't see that. I have such respect. He's a BOSS. Or she's a BOSS. And really, I feel that that has to be part of the mindset that, BOSSes out there, we need to stay humble, stay open to education, and educating yourself at all times. Like we are lifelong learners. It's not easy. Right? I mean, I, gosh, I wish a lot of times you might look into the industry and people just make it look so easy. They're just getting all the jobs. They're just powerhouses in the industry. But I guarantee if you sit down with every one of them, they can tell you their story. And their story has not been all roses. I mean, it's not easy being a good BOSS. It, it just isn't. There's a lot of trials, tribulations, failures, missteps. I think if you really look at it in a positive light, you always learn from your mistakes. I mean, I don't mind making mistakes. I mean, I don't wanna make big costly mistakes. I try to avoid those. But it happens. I mean, like I said, I made a bad investment in trying to hire someone that was gonna do some ads for me. And it wasn't just that, I mean, it's been multiple, multiple things that have happened that I'm like, well, okay, I've learned now. Now I know. I don't want that. Or now I learned and I know better. Lau: That's what I call learning money. (laughs). Anne: Yeah. Learning money. Lau: Learning money. But you don't wanna keep learning that lesson over and over and over again. Anne: Exactly. Lau: Just learn it and then move on and say, hey, I learned that. And I'll never forget that. Yeah. Because that was not the right move for us, but that's okay. That's all right. It happens. Anne: I try telling people all the time, it's such a thing on the forums in, you know, Facebook groups, oh, I got a demo, and oh, I shouldn't have gotten that demo. And then people come, they'll come to me and they'll say, can you listen to my demo? And I shouldn't have gotten it. And oh God, it was a mistake and it was bad. But honestly, I just tell people like, you cannot beat yourself up over something. It's a learning mistake. Right? I mean, everybody starts somewhere. Right? Lau: Yeah, I was just thinking of that. Anne: And so, if you beat yourself up about, yes, it could have been a costly investment, but think of it as a learning investment. And now you know exactly what not to do. And so I always try to make people not feel bad about what they consider to be mistakes. because it, they bring with them all sorts of luggage, which it doesn't always serve them well in trying to build their businesses. Right? When you've got that luggage and that baggage and that bitterness. I mean, just move on, learn, move on. And yeah, it was a costly mistake. And it happens. It just does. And it happens to the best of us, guys. It does. It happens to BOSSes that have been doing this for years, like myself and Lau, I'm sure. Lau: Oh my goodness. Every year, every year you're learning and you're growing, and you're doing things that are amazing and you're doing other things that you look back and you say, why did I do that? Or I don't think I'm gonna do that again. Anne: Well, that didn't work, (laughs). Lau: What was I thinking? You know? Wasn't time well spent. But you know what? I think the older and wiser you get, the more you realize I need to be able to take something away from every single experience that I'm doing. Because that's really the learning curve. Sometimes your biggest mistakes are your biggest learning curves. And sometimes you meet people within that mistake that become immense, immense partners in action for you and your lifetime. So always look for the silver lining of that cloud. Don't walk away and beat yourself up and waste energy and waste time and whatever. Say, listen, I got opportunity costs, I got learning money, (laughs) that I'm spending. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: But you know, I had a thought in my head, and this was like from 20 minutes ago, but I just wanted to say that some of the simplest things that can be blown out of proportion, if not done well, and doing the due diligence to do them well is so important. Like even budgeting, like even budgeting, understanding the difference between like what a fixed cost is versus what your variable costs are. if you don't know that from the beginning and you don't work on that, my goodness, the money is gonna go right through your hands like water. You won't even know what happened to it. You won't know how you spent it. You won't know how you got it. You won't know what to do with it. So your relationship to money is a very powerful and intimate and trusting relationship that you have to really respect and pay attention to, because it symbolizes so many important things for you in your life and in your business. So you have to really do that and not put it off for some day, someday. Do it early. Get yourself in really important patterns. Anne: I think ultimately we create businesses to have a business and create a profit. Right? We wanna be able to create a profit so that we can I mean, ultimately, if this is your full-time gig, right? I wanna be able to pay the mortgage, and so with my business, I need to make a profit. And so, yes, relationship with money is huge. And I think we had a podcast episode on it not so long ago, or we've spoken about it before. Your relationship with money is critical. It's imperative that you address it and that you face it. Because you have to know at what point, are you making a profit? Are you not making a profit? What are you putting your money into? And that's not to say that you shouldn't put your money into things, right? And that you should be clenching your fists and not wanting to invest in yourself or in your business, but knowing where that money is going. And then are you making a profit? Or at what point are you making a profit? Now, profit can mean something other than monetary profit, especially when we're talking about just getting into the business. The first couple of years I was in the business, I expected to take a loss. And of course I reported a loss on my taxes, right? Because you're investing money, or investing money in your training and your equipment, in your demos, you're spending money on, at least I was spending money on pay-to-plays and auditioning and trying to build up that business, build up that clientele. And so as a business entity, I lost money the first couple of years. And of course, ultimately that shouldn't be your goal forever. But I mean, that's very typical I think for any small business just starting out, you're gonna invest more than you're gonna get back. And so for those people, I love it, I always ask my new students to set goals. Some of the goals are like, I want a national spot in six months, or I wanna be able to make, you know, $100,000 this year, or whatever that is. And I like the fact that there's goals, but I want, I want your goals as BOSSes to also, if you educate yourself enough to figure out what are realistic goals for you in your business, and how much are you going to have to invest, and how much could you realistically get? I mean, of course there's always monetary goals, that I'd like to hit that six figure number this year. I think those are great. But I also think that you have to have the relationship with your money, first and foremost, to know where that money is going, in and out in profit and not profit, to really help you get an idea as to how to continue or to move forward and progress. Lau: Have a real action plan in place, right, Anne? I mean, don't just fly by the city of your pants. It's okay to have those impulsive moves at times and have the improv spirit, but you have to have a plan of action in place. I would like to see you have it in place every quarter and readjust it, readjust it, readjust it, reinvent it, reenvision it. It should not stay the same year after year, quarter after quarter. You should have new ideas, new ideas. And it's okay if your business is capped. You don't have to go through the ceiling. Not everyone has to go through the ceiling. Some people say, I wanna grow to this level. I'm happy with this level. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: I know if I get above it, it's gonna be too stressful for me. Or I don't have enough of -- Anne: There's gonna be more work involved. Exactly. Lau: — to help with that. And just know that, like go after your big dream, but be realistic about that big dream. I also wanted to say too, be careful of scams. It is a massive scam market now out there, just in the larger world, in the larger sphere. So as you're spending your money and investing in services and delegating and hiring people and growing your team, do your reference checks, do your research. Ask folks in the industry, do you know this one? Do you know this one? Do you know this one? Because you don't wanna make a mistake where you give a bunch of money to a scam outfit. That happens all the time. Every moment of the day, that's happening. And they're getting very crafty about looking like a real company. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: So just buyer, beware, consumer, beware. Do the due diligence. And I guarantee you two or three people in the industry that you work with and trust are gonna know whether they are legitimate and real or not. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. BOSSes, educate. I think it all starts with education, all starts with education. And I mean, hopefully our discussion on being a BOSS and things that we've had to encounter ourselves has helped you to know that you're not alone if you're experiencing difficulty or you have questions or you don't know the answers, because a lot of times we don't either. And so that's why we have support groups out there. We have mentors, we have coaches that we trust and believe in. And the BOSSes, we're always here for you if you need us. And so always great conversation, Lau. Lau: Great conversation. You know what I love the most about being a BOSS? I love developing relationships. Relationships that sometimes can last a whole lifetime. And that to me is one of the biggest payoffs of running a business, is getting to have amazing clients, amazing talent, and amazing colleagues and friends like you, Anne that just make my life happy. Anne: And cohosts like you, Lau. Lau: Yay! Anne: There you go. Lau: Yay. Anne: I love it. Love you, guys. Lau: Love that. Love it. Anne: Fantastic. Okay guys. So as individuals, I want to let you know that it can seem difficult not only to be a BOSS, but to make a huge impact. But as a group, we can contribute to the growth of our communities in ways that we never thought before possible. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. And big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like BOSSes like Lau and myself. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week, and we'll see you next week. Bye! Lau: Next time! Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

In this episode, Anne & Lau delve into the energizing power of generosity + how integrating it into your personal and professional life can be incredibly rewarding. They explore various ways to incorporate acts of kindness into your daily routine, emphasizing that giving doesn't always have to be monetary – it could be a service, a skill, or even just a few minutes of your time each day. They also discuss the importance of giving without seeking recognition, and how simple gestures can strengthen connections and relationships. Listen in as they share their own experiences, provide insights on how businesses can contribute to organizations like 100 Voices Who Care, and inspire you to unleash the transformative impact of giving in your life and the lives of those around you. Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the BOSS Super Power series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with ah, the one and only Lau Lapides. Lau: Hey, Anne. Happy Saturday. Anne: Happy Saturday, Lau. How you feeling this Saturday? Lau: Awesome. As always. Excited to be here with you. Anne: Me too. Me too. And you know why? I was gonna tell you before I asked you -- Lau: I have a feeling. Anne: -- do you know why? Lau: I know what's coming up. I think you're gonna talk about giving today, giving, giving. Anne: I am. I wanna talk about giving. Yes. And I've mentioned this before, purpose beyond profit for your businesses. So, I mean, it's awesome to be BOSSes, right? It's awesome to be a business superpower and to be a BOSS. And I think a big part of being a BOSS is also understanding the power and the power and the grace of giving back. And I think that there are a lot of people who, if they had the opportunity, would really get a lot out of giving back. I mean, anybody who's given to a charitable organization knows how good that can feel. And I truly believe that today people want to align themselves with businesses who are about more than just profit. You know? That they stand for something, they believe in something, they do good, they give back. I just think it's a good thing to do in your business. And I know it's hard if we're just starting out, trying to get our careers going. And I know there's a lot of people who are like, well, I don't know if I have the money to be able to donate at this time, but I'm going to ask you guys to think about your purpose. Think about the positive outcomes that can come from giving back. Lau, what are your thoughts about? Lau: I am so into that, and I have to say, this isn't an elitist sort of thought process of, oh, I've made it to this amount of money. I'm grossing in my business, then I can give, or this or that. It really is not contingent upon how much you're taking in or how much you're making. Really, I think the truth is, as a business owner and as a human being, a citizen of the earth, I like to say, you should always take a very small percentage of anything that you're bringing in and give it away to the charity of your choice. And I always say to people who haven't done it yet, who don't know what it is, and it's a little scary to do that, just start really small. Like if you're going through a coffee line, like let's say you're going through the drive-through, pay it forward once a month and just pay for the car behind you, and see what that feels like. What does that do for you for that day? For me, it's very energizing, very inspiring, and very anonymous, which I also like too. It's really coming from the heart, not for recognition. Anne: I actually love that you said that. And there's a couple of different ways when you're giving, and I love the anonymous because I feel like when you're anonymously donating, you're really giving for the reasons coming from your heart. Now, of course, there are a lot of businesses who support different charities or support different organizations, and it becomes a public part of who they are as a business. And I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that, especially if it's to the point of they're able to contribute, and it's not a thing where it's front and center, where it becomes like, this is who we are and this is what we're doing for so and so. But it becomes just a side part of what they do on a daily basis. And I love that you said start small because it doesn't have to be big. As a matter of fact, Lau, our sponsor 100 Voices Who Care has a really cool idea on how you can give and really make an impact. And basically it's a community effort where you can donate $100 a quarter. So that means $100 a quarter, four times a year, $400 total for the year. And essentially, if you can get 100 people together in that organization, they'll be 100 people, that can be a total of $10,000 a year -- Lau: Ooh, that's a lot Anne: — that can be given away. And so actually that's a large amount. So for you, making your $100 contribution four times a year, and then doing that just minimally, together with however many members that are contributing, can actually make a real difference. And then essentially these members get together, and they do their pitch for their favorite charity, and they say, well, I really like to give to this charity because I feel strongly about how they're helping animals, or they're helping needy people in other countries, or they're -- whatever they might be doing. And you'll be within this group making your pitch. And at the end, everybody votes on what charity that will ultimately win that money. And then what's so great about it is that, even if it doesn't go to the charity of your choice, it's going to a charity. Lau: Exactly. It's giving back to the world, to the people, the animals, the children, the environment, whatever your causes are, it's going in all of those directions. So in essence, you are personally involved with the giving to all of those different worlds. And to me, I'm about to actually join that organization, 100 Voices Who Care, and I'm very excited about that. Because I'll tell you, I'll be perfectly honest, I've been trying to find organizations to work with, and it's so hard to give money. It sounds ridiculous. But it's hard to get people to call you back. It's hard to find point people. It's hard to find anyone who has information about the organization. And I was very relieved to see this particular outfit at our conference recently that we attended. And I was like, wow, this answered all of my prayers as a business and also as a human being. Like, you're gonna take care of a lot of this for me, but I also have a voice and I can pitch an organization that I'm interested in giving a voice to. Anne: It's wonderful. Lau: That's exciting. Anne: And who's leading the organization, who was there at the conference, if you guys were there and didn't get a chance to stop by and see her, is Claire Dinsdale, who is a voice actor herself, and who is fronting that organization to help be able to give to charities. And it's just wonderful because it's something where I wanna feel like I can make a big impact, but I don't necessarily have a lot of money to give. But together we can really make a huge impact. And I think one of the things I thought long ago was the fact that if I was able to have an organization, let's say like my VO Peeps and my VO BOSSes, that now that I've formed this organization, there is this segment of it that I do want to be able to give back if I'm able to give back. And so it's one of the reasons I formed the VO Peeps Scholarship Fund and have been giving scholarships away for, gosh, close to 11 years. And again, it really is a matter of the community because I accept donations from the community as well as in-kind gifts. So it doesn't always have to be money either. It can be your time, it can be coaching time, it can be equipment, it can be all sorts of different things that you can donate that can really mean something to a person's career. And so that became a very integral part of the VO Peeps business model. And so I really encourage all of you BOSSes out there that if it is possible to either join an organization and get that feeling of being able to contribute to that organization, to give back, I truly believe it makes the world go round. Right? I mean… Lau: It's huge. Anne: Even if you're giving anonymously, I think it's just, everything comes back. I believe in good karma. I truly believe that it helps in the growth and positive reinforcement of the world and our humanness to each other. Lau: Hmm. So true. I mean, the karma of that, if you believe in karma, if you believe in that boomerang energy that what you put out into the world will come back to you — I mean, we wouldn't do it for that reason. But I do deeply believe in that. I absolutely believe in that. And I did wanna just give a super quicky anecdote, Anne, about a moment in time that's running through my head right now, where my daughter — and I hope she's not listening because she likes to be anonymous in everything she does — my daughter, about a year ago or two years ago, young kid, she was a young kid, teenager, she saw that one of the customers that came into a store she was working at desperately needed a walker and did not have the funds to get a walker, and was really, really struggling. And on her birthday, I -- this kind of blew me away — on her birthday, on my daughter's birthday, she decided to take the money that we gave her on her birthday and buy her a walker, which was a very expensive walker in the store. Anne: Yeah. Wow. Lau: And give it to her. And her and my son delivered it to their door. And I said, that's amazing. Are you sure you wanna do that? They didn't have any money saved, and that was good money for her to do something with. She said, yeah, I can't think of anything I really want or need, but this woman Sarah, needs to walk. And I would feel better giving it to her. Anne, she did that. Long story short, I was amazed. I'm trying not, not to get verklempt about it. Anne: What a wonderful story. Lau: I drive up the street now, Anne, and I see this woman, she lives in the area, crossing the street with the walker. And every time I see her, I just quietly, she doesn't know me, she doesn't know I'm the the mother. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: I think my daughter gave her that. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: And it's not about the walker, it's about freedom. And so I always think it's not about the money. If you give a dollar, if you give a million dollars, it's kind of the same, because symbolically what it's really giving to a person, confidence -- Anne: Sure. Lau: — energy, freedom, all sorts of things that you have to think of it in that way. Don't whittle it down to just monetary. It could be service you do, right? Anne: Absolutely. Lau: It could be absolutely something you own that's precious to you that you give to someone else. It could be anything. Right? Anne: Yeah. I love that story. That's such a beautiful story. Lau: Amazing story, right? Anne: Yeah. Lau: It's amazing. And that taught me a lesson. Anne: Yeah. And there's so much to be said for when you see someone in need, just being able to help them out, what it can do for you internally, mentally. And I think that of course, as we, again, we say over and over and over again, as we run our businesses, I mean, we are all human, and our businesses are very personal. It's a very personal and proud of our brand. So whatever we do outside of our job, right, outside of our business, affects our business in a lot of ways indirectly. And so I think being able to feel good about what you're doing and feeling good — and again, we're always talking about in our business, let's charge what we're worth. And I still believe in that. But I also believe that if you can help another talent out, or if you can help someone else out around you, then that is just going to contribute to the overall good of your business and of you personally. Lau: And I do think some of the best times to give, Anne, are not in dire times. I think we always connote that, oh, if someone's starving or they're in war, whatever, of course they need help in assistance. And of course we should assist them. But it's not the only time. Maybe there's a zoo or an animal farm that needs maintenance, constant daily maintenance to feed the animals, clean the animals, keep them, whatever. Or maybe there's the trees in the forest that need-- you know, we are big in terms of Israeli trees being planted every year. Anne: Sure. Lau: And we give money to plant new trees every year. so that we can grow that new forest. So thinking about what am I doing to maintain, what am I doing to provide a future for populations or for the environment? It's not absolutely only in dire, dire circumstances. Sometimes it's in good circumstances in order to keep it maintained and keep it healthy. Anne: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that really it is, it's something that I would say, if you haven't already put it into your business plan or into your daily life, really take some time to consider what can I do? What can I do to help give back? And again, as Lau mentions, it doesn't have to be monetary. I mean, it could be your time, it could be some other service that you can provide. If you don't have the money to donate, it could be your service. And that could mean just as much, if not even more. I mean, be a tutor for a child that might need help reading or there's just so many, so many things that we can do. I have to say, take a part of your workday. I wouldn't feel bad. You know what I mean? If we're busy and we're like, okay, we're focused on our work -- I think you should set aside a part of your workday to consider what am I gonna do to help give back? Maybe even it's something as simple as contributing to, I'm gonna say a Facebook forum in a positive way where you might be helping other talent. Gosh, I know, Lau, this has been going back and forth about people who ask questions in the forums. And some people get really angry about having to answer the same question multiple times. They're trying to pick my brain. And yes, I get that whole thing. But I do believe that as a good service towards people coming into the industry, you can give a little bit and give some helpful advice without sacrificing, giving away the farm. I mean, gosh, the VO BOSS podcast over and over I've said, it was something that I wanted to do to give back to the community, to just have a resource that people could go to. Lau: Exactly. Right. Anne: And so, a lot of my stuff that I do, I have that whole series on teachable moments that I put on YouTube. 'cause I love teaching, I love sharing. And yes, I will be the first person to say that. Yes. Some people, when they come to me for coaching, they say, well, I saw you on your videos, or I listened to your VO BOSS podcast. Gosh, Lau. I'm sure people talk to you about that too. I am so grateful for the people that come to me that say, I listen to your podcast religiously, or thank you for what you're doing. And yes, I wanna work together. So that's the bonus. Lau: I'm blown away. Bonus, bonus, bonus. Anne: That's just a bonus. Yeah. It wasn't the original intent. And I think that that is obvious too. Right? Lau: I'm blown away by that. Yeah. We get comments all the time about this wonderful podcast and it's like, woo! I feel like superheroes, we're spending our time together on a Saturday and doing our thing. But then when you hear and you see how it lands, how it affects people, how it has the potential to change someone's life — well, in essence, I mean, that's giving too. You're not giving physical money, but you're giving time. Time is energy. Time is value. Time is money. Right? And I do wanna mention too, another thing I tend to do, which is hard, I'm not gonna say it's easy. I take as many surveys as I can. And that's the thing that everyone hates and doesn't wanna do. And they get the survey from every hotel and every whatever. And I literally sit there and I think, okay, I have to do this for them. I have to do this. And then if it goes too many windows, too many pages, I can lose my patience. But if it can be done in five minutes, I will do it for them. Because I say, I know they need that feedback, and I'm the person to give it to them in a really constructive way. And that's giving of yourself too. Anne: And you know what? That's so funny cause you just reminded me because of VO Atlanta -- I'm just gonna say VO Atlanta is one example where the staff, I'm going to say the staff just ran their tushes off and bent over backwards trying to help me. And Lau, if you remember, you were a part of that one night when I was starving to death. And so the staff really went above and beyond. And I said to them, give me the email address of your manager. I will write an email saying how wonderful you were for me tonight. Please, I want to do that for you. And I'm -- Lau: I love that. I love that. Anne: — very much willing to do that because it helps. It does. Lau: It totally helps. You don't see it. You don't hear it, but you have to believe it's there. It's like if the tree's falling, do you hear it? Is it happening? Yes, it's happening. Yes, it makes impact. And yes, you don't always need the accolades, you just need the knowledge of knowing it's happening. And I noticed you neglected to mention that I had to threaten the whole staff at that Marriott to get you like some turkey sticks or whatever we got you. And that was my charity for that night. Anne: Yeah, you had to threaten everybody. But the person that came through, the person that came through for me, they bent over backwards. Lau: They did. They sure did. Anne: To help me. Yeah. They really did. Lau: They did. Anne: To get me that turkey sandwich. Lau: They went beyond, they went beyond customer service, beyond hotel service. That happened to me one time up in the Berkshires and it was a hotel, I think it was a Marriott. It was great. It was super great. And I needed baby powder one night. You know, maybe they thought I had a baby, which I didn't, but I needed baby powder. And my husband goes to the front desk and it's like 11 at night. Do you happen to have any baby powder? And the woman who has babies, young children who works at the desks said, we don't sell it here, but hold on, let me run to my car. She runs to her car and gets it from her baby in the car. This is a hotel rep. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And gives it to my husband and said, here, give it to your wife. I know sometimes when you need certain things, it's just good to have them. And I never forgot that. Anne: Yeah. Lau: I never forgot. That was so above and beyond to me. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Was so personal, so personalized -- Anne: Right. Lau: — to do something like that, you know, whether it's shoe polish or a toothbrush, or baby powder, whatever it is, it's the humanness of the connection and relationships we have together. Was that an extreme need for me? No, I could've lived without it. But the humanity of the honest connection between people is what builds the good juju in the world. Not always, here, let me give you physical cash. Let me help you and do something to make your life easier and it'll connect us for a moment. To me, that's worth everything. I love that. I love those moments. Anne: And it makes me think of our clients, right? Lau: Yeah. Anne: Sometimes can we extend a little bit to our clients once in a while? Do you know what I mean? Like if they need a favor or you know, gosh, they need a pickup like yesterday and is it three words, and they're ready and willing and able to pay, and you're like, you know what? No, it's okay. Like you're just building that good relationship. As a matter of fact, I'm the type of person, oh gosh, I don't even charge. I mean, unless they have completely new scripts, I don't charge. I embed in my price, I embed a certain amount of pickups to it. And if it's a company that I've worked with for a while and I've got a good relationship with them, I'm happy to extend a freebie here and there in a pinch for them, absolutely. Because honestly, the time it would take me to draw up the invoice and charge them and worry about all that, just, it wasn't even worth the time. So I do think that also in your businesses, you can extend goodwill towards your clients as well and not be threatened that you're not charging what you're worth. Lau: We used to call that in the olden days, don't nickel and dime people. Anne: Yes. Lau: And that means not just getting the pennies from someone, but also the bother, the energy, the exhaustion, the stress. Anne: Yes. That's what it is. Lau: Everything that surrounds that transaction. And you have to know intuitively, is it worth it quickly to do that or not? Is it better to just say, hey, let's not worry about that right now. Let's worry about the bigger picture right now of things, versus -- Anne: Let me get you your job on time. Yeah. Lau: That's a huge gift. Anne: Let me give this job to you on time. And I think -- yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's something that you can consider every once in a while. Especially if you've developed a great relationship with a client. Now, clients that nickel and dime you, well that's a different story. Lau: That's a different story. Anne: Yeah. That's a different story. So I think we have to make wise decisions, but I think for the most part, if you know your client, you're gonna know what the right decision is. You're gonna know if they're nickel and diming you, but I truly believe that a little goodwill can really, really go a long way. And that's personally in your business all the way around. And so, yeah. I like how you associate it with the stress that's wrapped around the request or the stress that's wrapped around the transaction. And I think alleviating as much stress as possible, I'll tell you that's my goal lately, Lau (laughs). Lau: And that's a great goal to have. Anne: I don't want stress. I don't want stress in my business. Lau: No, no one does. Anne: And I think stress or pain or -- I don't want any of that. I just want joy. I want joy surrounding my job. And sometimes that's tough to do, but I'll tell you what, it's so much easier when you are a BOSS yourself and you're in control of it, because you realize that you have control of those things. You have control over your goodwill towards your clients, your goodwill towards humankind, how you feel on a daily basis and how that translates into your performance, and how it translates into your business. It is absolutely up to you. And it's one of the things that I'm so grateful. I just love the fact that I'm working for myself. And I mentioned this to you just recently, Lau, that I don't wanna go through the stress of if I'm working for someone, why did I work so hard to build my own business? If I wanna experience stress like that? I don't. So anything that causes stress like that, basically I've gotta figure out what I can do to wipe that stress away. Lau: That's right. And to circle that back with that idea of giving -- and by the way, we have a great term. Most people know that I'm Jewish. We have a great Yiddish term called mitzvah. When you do a mitzvah, when a boy or girl turns 13, we have a bar or bat mitzvah. it means they are now an adult, and they really need to start thinking about giving, give, give, give, give back. Don't take, take, take, take, give, give, give, give. And that's the whole purpose of a bar or bat mitzvah. So the mitzvah of the giving is to de-stress, to relax, rejuvenate. Give someone the joy, the pleasure, the peace of mind that what they're doing is a life worth living, is goals worth having, and that you're there in their community to support them. I mean, I'd love to see that in the world at large. We'd have a better world if everyone could think in the way in which you are thinking. And as like, to de-stress someone is to give them a huge gift, whether it's a smile. It could be an emoji. It could even be like -- Anne: A compliment. Lau: A compliment. Like pay attention to someone else for a moment and call attention to something that they're doing really well or something that impresses you or something that delights you. 'Cause a lot of times someone might be thinking it and not articulate it. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Lau: So kind of motivate yourself to articulate those positives. And when you feel the negatives coming on, and you wanna criticize, and you wanna judge, just stop for a second. Like stop and think and say, do I really need to give that out to this person? Is it really necessary? Yep. Or would it be better to build them up? That's a mitzvah. Anne: Do I need to put that out? Do I need to put that? I love that. Do I need to put that out into the world? Lau: That's better than money. Honestly. Sometimes that's better than money to say, I recognize you, you matter. You're someone and you're doing something really awesome today. Thanks for doing that. Ooh. Oh my gosh. No one ever, no one tells me that. You need to tell people that. Anne: And I say, bring that into the booth. We'll just keep going. Lau, every time you mention something that's great. Now I'm like, (laughs). Okay, so, so can we bring that feeling into the booth? And I'm always talking to my students and I've found, I say it more and more is that copy, you need to serve the copy. You need to serve the person you're speaking to. Your delivery needs to come from the heart. It needs to come from a place of service. It's not about how good you sound doing it. It's a place of service. You're helping someone. And I think if you can take any script that you're doing, commercial, corporate, medical, whatever that is, and you have that place of service, that place of heart where what you are saying is going to benefit and help someone in the end, I really believe that that can be a major impact on your performance. And a good one, a good one at that. Because I believe that the connection that is formed when it comes from that place, right, that place in you really makes a difference in the read. It makes difference on the people listening to it as well. Lau: I just know personally for myself, when I'm able to give something whatever form it's in, I feel so good. Like right now, I just got a little hot in my like skin and I thought, ooh, am I having a hot flash? No, it's, I'm thinking with about all the ways in which we give, and I'm literally sweating right now because it's so fun to me, it's so exciting because it's not just about giving, it's about seeing how it ripples into the world and into their universe and ultimately your universe too is like seeing the water. Like when you throw the stone, it's the ripple effect of giving. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: I love that. That's so cool. To me, it's like a little artistic venture. You don't know where it's gonna go and how it's gonna land, but you just know you threw the rock out there, and you got the ripples going. And so it kind of got me all hot and bothered. (laughs) Fun stuff. Anne: What a great conversation. What a wonderful — so yeah. BOSSes, one more time, we're gonna talk about the 100voiceswhocare.org. Big impact. Simple mission, big impact, 100 Voices, one hour, $10,000 four times a year. So if you wanna find out more about how this all works, make sure you visit 100voiceswhocare.org and find out more. And tell Claire we said hello and we love her, and we love her as a sponsor of this show. So make sure you check out 100voiceswhocare.org. And of course, as always our sponsor ipDTL, we love them. Find out more at ipdtl.com. So everybody, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week, mwah. Love you, BOSSes. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Join Anne & Lau as they embark on a fascinating exploration of the online casting world and analyze the controversial role of Fiverr in the voiceover industry. They shed light on the complex ethical issues prevalent in the freelance industry, emphasizing the significance of transparency, fair compensation, and adherence to industry standards. Listen in as The Bosses discuss online casting's ability to provide global exposure, momentum, and representation for emerging voice talents. Learn valuable insights into navigating the evolving world of online casting while maintaining ethical practices and fostering a thriving voiceover community. Transcript Anne: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to the VO Boss Podcast and the Boss Superpower Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I have my amazing, lovely, lovely boss co-host Lau Lapides with me. Yay! Lau: Hey everyone! Hi Anne! Back, back, back. We're back. Anne: Lau, I've got a dirty word that I heard. Lau: And I've got a jar that you're going to put a quarter into. Anne: Every time you say that word, that F-word, I mean, and I'm not -- Lau: No… Anne: — talking the F-word that most people think. Or maybe if you're in the voiceover industry, you know what that F-word is? Lau: What? Anne: It's not failure either, because that's also another F-word. But the word Fiverr. Lau: Oh! Quarter in the jar. Anne: Quarter in the jar every time you say the word Fiverr. So I think we're going to be rich, maybe, Lau Lau: Quarter in the jar. Anne: After this podcast. So yeah, it's a hot topic. It's always been a hot topic. And I think that it's a considerably bigger topic because I've been in the industry forever. So before there was Fiverr, there was other places that -- Lau: Always. Anne: — always places that like Fiverr. And I think now we just really hear so much more about it because we're all online and everybody can talk about it in groups easily. And so we should talk. Lau, what are your thoughts about -- and before you just come right out and say what your thoughts are about Fiverr, I mean let's talk about business. I think that when you talk about businesses, you're always going to have businesses that are luxury brands, right? Lau: Hmm, yes. Anne: You know, that sell luxury brands or luxury, you know, the idea of luxury. And then you have the other that are economical. Lau: Yes. Anne: And yeah, cost savings and efficient. And so I'm going to start by saying I think that that Fiverr fits in that model that probably isn't elegant brands, but it is the more cost efficient. And here's where you can get something quick, easy, cheap, and fast. Lau: Yes. Yeah, I'm going to second that and agree with that. But it's interesting because the way I frame Fiverr and sites that are similar to that, the way I frame that in my business brain is under the umbrella or framing in a context of how do I start my business or how do I gain more momentum in my business and how do I get known in my business? This is one way that is a way that you can build your client list. And the interesting part about a Fiverr is if you choose to go that direction, you have to know that people are going offline and it's wild west. So they're building their client list, they're charging all their rates that they're deciding on, they're communicating directly with their clients after awhile. So they're utilizing it as sort of a jumping platform to get out there, get known, and have Fiverr do a lot of the marketing for them so they can get found, and once they're found, then they start to make the rules themselves. They start to build their own clients themselves. So there's something to be said for having a platform. And now this is very common. Marketplaces all over the place are housing voice-over talent and voice-over services so that they are in essence marketing you. You're not doing the marketing, so that potential clients and prospects can find you. Anne: So, we should clarify. I mean, there are some platforms -- I'm not going to talk too much about the other ones, but there are some online casting platforms that you cannot take the client off of. I love what you said about how it's a jumping point. I mean, look, online casting sites, you know, SEO works on frequency of words, right? And so search engines are built to be good search engines. And so if you're looking for a voice talent or a voice actor, and you do a search at the Google prompt, then essentially they want to be a good search engine and serve back the right material. So when you've got online casting sites and you've got people that have thousands on thousands of profiles that say, I'm a voice actor — guess who has the best SEO, right? Those online casting sites. And honestly, it's almost impossible for you as a single individual business to go up against that SEO because you've got so many matches, right? And so the search engine says, well, the first, if you're searching for voice artists, well, the first place that comes up that term or that word, that search term, would be a casting site that has thousands upon thousands of profiles that say, I'm a voice artist. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And so I love the fact that you use it to get your jumping off point, your marketing, use it for its SEO. And it's well known that Fiverr has great SEO, and as well as the other online casting sites, Voice123, Voices.com, they all have great SEO. And so to get yourself found of hundreds of thousands of people, that is absolutely an approach to doing that. And I'll tell you what, starting off understanding the type of business that Fiverr is, or some of these online casting sites, they're in business to make money. And also the people that are on these platforms are making money. Now, are they making great money? Are they making, you know, is it, You know what I mean? Like, if you're on Fiverr and you're making money for your family, I'm not even talking voiceover, but you're doing something — and again, this is a global site where there's lots of representation. And we live in the United States, which is very privileged, I'm just going to say, right? There might be people on there that are from other countries where $5 to them is a lot of money, right? And it's a way that they can feed their families. And so I can't, I can't, I can never shun the business. I mean, I can, I can say to them, well, I don't like their advertising. I don't like their ethics. I don't like their lack of transparency for any business, right? And I can choose whether or not I want to associate myself with that business. And I do that every single day. Right? Lau: Right. Anne: We do that every single day. So as a voice talent, is it horrible for you to be on Fiverr? And again, there's such. back and forth. And for me, Lau, I've always maintained that, mind your own business. Everybody starts in a different place. Gosh, when I started before there was Fiverr, there was Freelancer. And I'm going to say that -- Lau: I remember that. Anne: And on Freelancer, it was honestly everybody was underbidding. Everybody was underbidding each other to get the job. What's the difference? Whether they call it Fiverr or Freelancer, start with an F. F word. That's what happened but yet when I was beginning, there wasn't a lot of places there wasn't a lot of opportunities. Look if we're gonna be viable businesses we need to have opportunities right for work and we need to know where those opportunities are and so if they show up in a place like Fiverr, that's an opportunity. Now you make the choice whether or not you go and and and act upon that opportunity. Lau: And the coach in me says, listen, you know, as a business person, we're in business. We always talk about this like, mind your own business is right. Anne: Yes, mind your own business. Lau: Like, you want to set industry standards. Yes, you want to have fair working conditions and and good scale pay. That being said, we're still entrepreneurs slash solopreneurs. And we do have to make decisions, sometimes tough decisions, sometimes controversial decisions about how we put plates on the table, how we take care of our families or our rent, how we deal with everyday waking up and going after our business practices. Like we have to make individual decisions, so as you listen to the cacophony of voices that are out there that are making strong suggestions or they're giving their subjective advice, we have to do that. But we also have to come home and say, let me sift through all of that and let me make my own decisions about what works for my own career. I think that's important. And I do want to say, one of the perceived negative sides of a Fiverr is the fact that you're not leading people in. They're coming in through their marketing and they're finding you. But they're also finding a lot of competitors to you on the same site. Anne: Sure. Lau: So you're in a pool on the same site with direct competitors. So you just have to know, what's my A-game? What makes me unique and artful? What separates my branding from their branding? What makes me get found? Because they're not coming in just finding you. They're finding potentially hundreds of others that are in your category or in your compartment. And you have to work a little harder to separate yourself from the in-house competition that they're finding. Anne: And you know what's so interesting, too, is, I'm not the person to judge if you're on Fiverr or not. I always say, I'm not here to judge you if you're on Fiverr or you're not on Fiverr. What I am concerned about is that you price yourself what you know your worth and that you price yourself knowing your worth. And understanding that just because you're new or you're less experienced does not mean that you have to price yourself less. Lau: Mm. Anne: And so I always try to instill that you need to price yourself what you're worth. Lau: Well, It's an interesting topic -- Anne: It is, it is. Lau: — because it's like any other, I call it a marketplace because -- Anne: Yeah, it is. Lau: — you may not find other competing businesses to Fiverr itself, but the businesses under the umbrella of Fiverr, many of them are competitive. So it's like you're on a marketplace, you're in a marketplace. It's like you're in a supermarket, right? Who else is on the shelf right next to you? Anne: And you can price yourself low, whether you're on Fiverr or not. That's the thing. And I think that if you do that, then you are undervaluing yourself. And it can be, if you become good at it and you do a ton of volume work at a low price, then it will start to probably impact the industry. If you become known enough, where you do enough jobs, then it can start to impact the industry. If you are not doing it, somebody will. It always happens. And again, it's not under our control necessarily. I think there will always be bottom feeders, and always in any, any industry. And so I think for you, you have to worry again, mind your own business, and worry about what you're charging and making sure that you're charging enough so that you are getting paid fairly. And it's not like, this is an online business, right, like it's a brick and mortar where we're doing unethical things, hiring labor that's not minimum. Now there is the argument that people get paid less than minimum wage. But minimum wage where? Lau: Yeah. Anne: Minimum wage in what country? Minimum wage. And I get that. I mean if you want to make a blanket statement in saying people get paid less than minimum wage. Well, first of all I've been offered less than minimum wage to do voiceover and I always choose to say no to that. Because for all the times that I've, and back in the day when I might have said, oh, I'll think about it. I mean, it's always better for me, and I think for most people, to just say no for less than minimum wage, because look, I didn't give up my job, you know, and to go into business for myself to get less than minimum wage. Lau: Right. Anne: And that time is better spent finding somebody who understands my value and values me at my fair rate. Lau: You brought up a really, really important point, though. It's like we're always thinking of Fiverr from our point of view, which -- Anne: Mm-hmm. Lau: — many of us are in the US or in North -- Anne: Yeah. Lau: — America or UK, but people are on there from all over the world. And I know when I've hired a service off of Fiverr, you know, I've met amazing people from Sri Lanka and Philippines and on and on it goes, from Russia, I mean, there are artists from everywhere, creators from everywhere. So in one sense, if you come out of your perspective into a more global perspective, you're giving a lot of artists potential work, where they live and what their experiences are, they would never be able to get on their own. They would never have the money to market their business. They would never physically be able to go to a brick and mortar where they live. So it's a marketplace that is very important to a lot of people globally speaking that just would not have the placement opportunities that we have here in the states. It's an interesting way of looking at it. And then of course, when I've hired someone, we may go offline, and then their rates completely change. Then we're in a total other stratosphere. We're no longer in the Fiverr territory. We're in this person's business territory. And then I will pay them what they think they're worth, and that changes, completely changes, and sometimes it actually gets very pricey. It gets very expensive and rightly so, because their services are worth a lot, oftentimes. Anne: Yeah. Lau: So thinking of it as, I don't know how you would say it, but sort of a layered approach. It's not just, oh, they don't charge a lot of money, you're not paying people what they're worth. That's the meeting time, that's the launching place. And then where it goes from there is into a very different kind of bargaining and negotiation. You have to expect that too. No one I have met and worked with on Fiverr stays at that beginning rate. No one. Anne: And again, I think that I think that you can off the bat — and I don't know I am not I'm not on Fiverr, and I have I've spent very little time on Fiverr. So it's interesting that we've chosen this. This is our topic today because -- Lau: Yeah. Anne: — I don't have a lot of experience in fiber and I try not to to make statements, you know what I mean, about Fiverr not understanding the impact or having direct experience. I signed up so that I could look for, you know, different types of employees. I've never hired anybody off of Fiverr. However, I've had enough experiences. I understand the concept of Fiverr. I understand, you know, I talked to enough people that are on it, getting their experiences on it. And again I feel it really is one of those things where it is up to to the individual, whether they choose to be on Fiverr, to associate with that. For me, it was just one of those things where I didn't yet need another platform. I just didn't have time to really take part in it or -- Lau: Yeah. Anne: — do what I needed to do. I don't know, honestly, Lau, if I have to start with a certain amount of money or if I have to work up to it and I didn't have time for that because thankfully my business is doing well. And so I don't have to rely on a platform like Fiverr, but boy, in the beginning, I did. I relied on those platforms, online casting platforms, not Fiverr, but to pick up clients and to get my name out there and to get experience so that I could ultimately be in a successful business where ultimately I didn't need it. Lau: Right. And you're also having, well, you're having tremendous diversity on a platform like that, which I love because I have a vested interest in working with as much diversity as possible -- Anne: Mmm. Lau: — giving people opportunities that they may not have. Anne: Sure. Lau: And also young people, like anyone under the age of 30, I consider young. Anyone under the age of 30, they don't oftentimes know where to go. They don't have the business practices. They don't have advisors, even if they are lucky enough to go to college and get an education. Even in university environments oftentimes, you're not getting business practices or where to go or any real placement. So you have to think back, for those of you listening in, that if you are 40 and up, where were you at 18? Where were you at 22? What were you thinking at 28? And I know a lot of us were thinking, help, I don't know even what questions to ask. Like, I do a graphic design business, I do a PR business, I create, you know, music for people. I don't know how to get clients. I'm a creative. I don't have that brain. Anne: Sure. Lau: So a marketplace like Fiverr was also filling a need of so many people that literally had no idea how to build a business. No idea at all in saying, hey, come in, we'll give you your start. Hopefully you'll stay with us, but if you don't, we'll give you your start, and you'll be able to make those connections all over the world that you want to make. And now that we're all online, you don't even need a brick and mortar in a lot of these professions. So you're all online. So you need the marketplace in order to do that. Anne: Well, and of course, there was a hole in the marketplace. And honestly, it kind of makes me think about, well, what's going on with AI in the creative world? Not just synthetic voices, but we're talking art and writing and copywriting and the creative where AI tools have come out that can write things for you, that can generate art for you. I do believe that ultimately if you can use these as tools, and that includes online platforms, use them as tools to help grow your business, to grow -- Lau: That's right. Anne: — what it is. And of course, now I'm not saying that people that steal art or AI that is stealing art is right. I believe this is evolving to a point where we will ultimately come up with standards, guidelines, and laws that will protect our rights -- Lau: Yes. Anne: — protect our art, protect our writing. And it needs to happen. There needs to be this sense of injustice about it all, or this anger, or this stand up and kind of fight for what you believe in. And I believe in the end it will work out. I'm not going to stand here and stomp my feet if you're on Fiverr and say, you're ruining the industry for me. Because, honestly, I found my own industry. I've found my own clients and that's okay, that it works for my business. And again I like to always look at the positive thing ,the positive spin of everything. I think that Fiverr filled the need. If Fiverr didn't do it, it would be some other company that would have filled the need -- Lau: No question. Anne: — for that. Lau: Yeah, no question. Anne: It's just the way business works here. And there needed to be an option for people that were looking for an effective voice. And I'm just going to say, those people, if they didn't go to Fiverr, they were probably going to one of the other platforms, like Upwork or whatever the other ones would be, so that they could get reasonably priced voiceover. Now, a lot of times, yes, do they value voiceover? It's a perception, right? People value things in different ways. I think it's just a fact of life, right? They think, yes, this voice contributes to our brand. And as artists, we want to say, yes, our voice has an impact on your brand, and it can help sell for your brand, and it can help elevate your brand. But there are some people who don't see that value, right? And I'm not going to bother fighting those people, nor am I going to bother trying to get work from those people. Because they'll be the first ones to turn around and complain that they paid too much, and then give me tons of revision. And I've done that enough times in my business to know, right? I've accepted a low-ball offer, not too many times, but enough to know that they're usually the most trouble. So the people that are coming to Fiverr, right? Their expectations, right? And their appreciation of the value may not be where we want it to be. And that's just something to understand, right? I mean, if we are businesses and we can educate our clients, our potential clients on our value and what we can do for them, then I don't think we have problems. Lau: I agree, Anne, totally wholeheartedly. And I think that we as individuals and as business owners and as citizens of the world create our own morality. We really do. Like we create our own sphere of morality. Anne: Oh, I like that. Lau: And you really have to go with what your heart and soul is telling you. And you really have to do it with with an honest heart and a full heart. You're not going with mal-intention. You're not going to hurt someone. You're not going to slight anyone. Like you have to believe that in our industry the space is big enough that you're gaining clients. A lot of them have no level of knowledge of what a rate sheet is or what should be charged or what could be charged. So you're in essence, every time you meet a potential client, you're schooling them, you're teaching them, you're building your own morality base to say, okay, we're meeting at this level. Listen, what's the difference between that and giving away a free hour of coaching? Or giving away, I'm gonna do like 50% off of class. I want to introduce my value to you. I want to build trust with you. I want you to have a little taste test of what we do. And if you love it and if you want to buy into that and invest into that, then the investment is going to change. We all know that. It's the same with Fiverr. I want to give you a little taste test. Let me just give it to you for a very low rate. But if you really want to invest in this, then we're going to go to the rates that are established by my business, by me. Because you're already buying into the trust factor of working with me and what I'm offering you is filling the need. So it's very similar to that if you look at it in that way. There's tons and tons of free offers out there, tons and tons of discounts out there. It's ultimately to get buy-in to invest in what the full rate would be for that product or service. Anne: That's an interesting way of looking at it. Yeah, you're going to buy in or you're going to get a sample. And you know, it's interesting because for me, I want to project my business as not being cheap, because there's a lot to be said, when we've talked about this before, with branding. I mean, there are certain things when I pay a low amount of money, I think, oh, I wonder what's wrong with that? Or I don't now, is that — and so for me, I've always elevated my business and my voice to be, you know, here's my rate and it's okay if you can't meet that. Thank you. That's okay. You know, I hope to work with you in the future, but that's okay. I will spend time with people who will value my rate. I have no bitterness. I have no, there's no malice. There's, you know, nothing like that. I don't know exactly the rules of Fiverr right now, forgive me for that. But I don't know if you have to start at a very low rate or if you have to like work your way up to a certain rate. I'm not sure what it is. Lau: I don't think so, Anne. Anne: Yeah, I think you can start at a reasonable rate. Lau: When you go on the platform, you're going to see, like, let's say you're looking up a service of an attorney, or let's say you're looking up someone, a musician, you want them to create music for you. You may see a layered approach of, I provide this for this amount. But then if you want this, we're going to layer that on at this amount. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Then we're going to provide it at this amount. So it isn't this flat, like, $5 or $10 thing. Anne: Yeah, it's not $5. Lau: It's very much a layered approach to what they do, and some of them start very high. They'll say this is what I'm worth, this is what it is. I'm on the platform that's known as a discount platform, but I'm not offering your discount. And that's what it is. So it's all over the place, it's all over the place. Anne: And again, it's all about your business. And it's all about how you run your business. Lau: It is. Anne: And I truly believe, and I want this for every BOSS out there. I really, really do. I mean, gosh, guys, I've learned so much in my many years. And Lau, you too, I'm quite positive. I've learned so much about valuing my worth and understanding good clients to work with and knowing where to place myself. And if I need to negotiate a specific rate or a custom rate, which is what we do all the time, pretty much, for every single client, and it needs to be a little bit lower to fit a budget, and it's okay with me, and I know I'm going to get more work, or it'll be worth it in some other way outside of monetary value, that is up to me. That is my judgment. That is my business decision, and it is how I run my business. And I will tell you that being able to walk away and saying no, and I've said this multiple times, has given me the confidence to be able to understand my worth and be able to be successful in my business. And I think however you do that, whether you're on Fiverr, whether you're on another casting website, whether it gives you the confidence at some point that you're like, I don't need this anymore, or I can get my own clients -- I think it's all a stepping stone. And I think it truly is what I want for all the BOSSes is that confidence. You're worthy of a fair price, whether, no matter what platform you're on. You're worthy of a fair price. And once you have that confidence and the confidence to walk away from a low ball price, right, or something that deems you as cheap, right, then your business will grow. And once your business grows, it's kind of like, it's just like a wonderful little snowball that just gathers the confidence and it gathers, you know, oh, this is great. Now I know what I'm worth, and my business can grow and I can be successful and I can put some money in the bank, right? And then if that if that next client says no or offers me something too low it's okay I can walk away. I've got the money in the bank. I'm able to pay the bills and boom. Lau: That's right. Anne: And that's what I want for all of you BOSSes out there, however you get there. Know, know, know your worth. Lau: Mm-hmm, and it goes right into your submissions if you were with an agency. I'm an agent, and I can tell you, there are times we're working with a budget that is minuscule. It's like, oh my gosh, who could even work for this? And yet we have a lot of folks that want to book that job for many, many reasons. And then the next one that comes in is overpriced. They're giving us too much budget for it, and they don't realize it. Anne: But Lau, is there ever really too much? Lau: No, no, but like, if you see it in the same category, right next to each other, and you're like, Oh, my goodness, this one's offering $400 with no usage. And then this one's offering, you know, $2000 with three years' usage. You're like, oh my goodness, there isn't much difference between these two. And I know for a fact, I can tell everyone hands down, that I have many people who want to audition and want to submit for both. And I respect that. Anne: Now as an agent, will you fight for higher rates? Lau: Oh, always. I mean, that to us is a truism. We're always going to go back and forth on every single thing that comes in and goes, come on, we need another thousand on this. You can do, right? So we're always quoting high. Anne: You're always fighting for the talent, yes. Lau: That's not even to be discussed because that's our job. That's what we do. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And that's what we want to do. But we know, like as negotiators and anyone who's on that business, and we know where it stops. Like if you push just hard enough, you're going to lose that client. It's okay, sometimes we'll lose the battle, but we always want to win the war, so to speak. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Is that we don't want to lose the client unless it's like completely insane. Anne: Yeah. Lau: We want to keep the clients because we know we have a whole lot of people who still want to submit and work. Anne: Yeah. Lau: They just want to work. Anne: And I love that. I love that you said that, your experience as an agent, because, guys, agents go through it as well. I mean, you're fighting for fair compensation, for good rates. God, it always used to make me wonder, because people would be like, well, my agent shouldn't accept that rate. And I'm like, sometimes the agent has nothing to do with that rate, right? And like you just mentioned, there's a fine line between losing the client forever, right, because you can't push. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And understanding that. I mean, voice talent, sometimes I wonder where they get their assumptions from, right? You know what, you've got to understand this is a business, it's negotiation, and that, it happens. It does. Sometimes there is no budget. Lau: I also don't want to play the omnipotent authority of what everyone could or should be doing. I want to be a conduit to getting people work, and that means at all different rates, at all different levels, at all different -- and those people need to take agency and to self-screen and say, I don't want to do that. Anne: Exactly. Lau: I say, great, you don't even have to let me know, just pass on it. That's okay. I don't make any judgment as to why you're doing it or why you're not doing it. I'm just running on an assumption, you're a professional talent, you want to be in the roster, and you want to be privy to what is coming through. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And that's all I feel. And to me, Fiverr is the same thing. If you want to be on the platform, you want to be privy to what's coming through, and then you make your own decisions and self-screen. To me, it's very, very much the same. Anne: Excellent topic. The F word, guys. Remember, mind your own business and know your worth. And thank you, Lau, for an amazing discussion yet once again. Lau: Awesome. Anne: Ah, good stuff. Lau: I loved it. Anne: BOSSes, I want to take a moment and have you imagine a world full of passionate, empowered, diverse individuals, giving collectively and intentionally to create a world that they want to see. You can make a difference. 100VoicesWhoCare.org to learn more. Also, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like a BOSS. Find out more at IPDTL.com. Thank you so much, everyone. We love you. We'll see you next week. Lau: See you next week! Anne: Bye. Lau: Bye!

In this episode, Anne is joined by special guest Tom Dheere, the Vo Strategist. With over 25 years of experience, Tom knows how to ride the waves of ever-changing technology and market shifts. Discover the secrets to driving traffic to your website through social media, blogging, and top-notch content to keep you ahead of the pack. They share how old-school tactics like cold calling and email marketing might not be cutting it anymore. Boost your confidence with Tom's killer advice on negotiating rates like a BOSS and flipping your approach to snag the rates you truly deserve. Plus, we unveil the controversial truth about Fiverr and how this billion-dollar beast can actually help you charge industry-standard rates… Transcript 0:00:01 - Anne Hey, hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am excited to welcome voiceover business and marketing consultant and VO strategist, Tom Dheere, to the show. As a voice actor with over 25 years of experience, Tom brings a wealth of voiceover knowledge to the table In his one-on-one strategy sessions, diagnostic sessions those sound interesting and his mentorship program, As well as speaker appearances at industry conferences. Tom, I am so excited to have you here today. Thanks for joining me. 0:00:34 - Tom Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to chat with you, Anne. 0:00:37 - Anne Tom, you know it's chaotic out there. I'll tell you what there's disruption, There's, I say, mass panic, and I think that today more than ever, as entrepreneurs and business owners, we need a strategy more than ever. So I am super duper glad that we are here talking to you about that. So let's get a feel for your take on the industry, because you've been in the industry for gosh over 25 years and I'm sure you've seen it evolve, kind of like myself. Talk a little bit about your experience in this industry and how it's evolved over the years. 0:01:20 - Tom Okay, well, i decided I wanted to be a voice actor in 1994, so I was a graduate school dropout, so I got my. I decided in late 94, got most of my. I got my training in my voiceover demo in 95, which is a cassette tape. I still have it here in the drawer. And then when I got that demo, my coach gave me a little certificate and gave me a stack of Xerox copies of production company listings and said you know, start your good, your cold calling good luck. Because in 1995, there was I mean there was an internet and some websites, but there was no. 0:01:57 - Anne Yeah, there was no social media. 0:01:59 - Tom There was no online casting sites, there was no home recording, there was no digital delivery of audio files, there was no phone patch, there was ISDN. But like, who had that besides? like the, the, the rate, you know the major TV networks, you know. So you had to buy cold called and I called, called for a year until I got my first gig, so until I joined voice 123 in 2006,. That was pretty much, that was pretty much the only way to do it, and also I was going into New York city once a week. Voiceover is unlimited and you'd pay whatever was $35 for a 10 minute meet. Meet up with a casting director or an agent or a manager which is how I got my, my first manager, who I still have to this day, 17, 18 years later. So my cassette turned into a CD which I was duplicating, burning you know. Oh God, the my post office hated my guts. 0:03:04 - Anne Now mail. Yes, cause. 0:03:06 - Tom I had a long a lawn bag of padded mailers and they'd be like, oh geez, here comes Tom again and like, all right, everybody just gets to the side and just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick you know cause? 0:03:15 - Anne I was just constantly sending it out, yeah, and then that evolved into MP threes. So let's, let's, let's start. I think that there's, there's something, there's a parallel here, a disruption right. Some disruption in the industry right. So it evolved from a tape into a CD, into today, which is all digital right. 0:03:36 - Tom Right And then and then pay a voice bank and voicescom and voice 123 disrupted the voiceover again, again and you know, and now AI is disrupting the voiceover industry. But this is what I say and all my students. 0:03:52 - Anne A pattern Tom. A pattern Tom. Yes, there is a pattern throughout the years, so I don't think that disruption is going to stop anytime soon. 0:04:00 - Tom No, it's going to keep going, and what I like to say is that when the light bulb was invented, it disrupted the candle making industry and nobody cared about the candle makers, except for the candle makers. 0:04:13 - Anne People were saying Oh good I can. 0:04:15 - Tom I can read a book at night without my house burning down. Like that's where everybody was coming from. It's like okay. So the candle makers had a choice They could go to Congress to try to get light bulbs outlawed, they could go la, la, la, la la which a lot of voice actors have been doing especially literally today, this week, on the voiceover groups. Or they could adjust to their candle making industry to accommodate certain parts of the light bulb industry, or they could convert their candle making factory into a light bulb making factory. So, you can either fight it, ignore it, adapt to it or embrace it. And the voice actors that are going to still be standing for lack of a better term on the other side of AI and whatever the next disruption is, the ones that are adapting, evolving learning, growing, operating from a position of abundance as opposed to a position of scarcity, and not shouting at the rain. They're the ones that are still going to have a viable voiceover career. Yeah. 0:05:08 - Anne Yeah, i'll tell you, it has really it has really wreaked havoc, and I think that you know, gosh, you know, and I've been following it and following it And you know, two years ago on the VO Bus podcast, i mean, i think that you and I can both agree to do due diligence and educate yourself on, you know, evolving technologies or disruptive technologies that can affect your business, and that is so very important that we, you know, truly educate ourselves. And I had done a series of interviews, of which I'm still doing periodically, with you know, large companies, people that are working in synthetic voices, ai companies to kind of get to ask those tough questions like Hey, what's happening here? And are you, you know, is there transparency? You know, what are your ethics? You know, do you have, you know, objectives in terms of protecting? you know, voices as you go, and I think it's been an educational journey for not just me as a business owner and a voice artist, but for the AI companies as well. I think we are all learning and evolving with technology as we go, and I've had experience doing that myself, you know, working in technology for over 20 years, and I still consider myself working in technology. So, in terms of you know your, your students and and your clients. What is your? what is your biggest tip now for, let's say, people coming into the industry, how to get a handle on this industry and be successful. 0:06:43 - Tom Do as much research as you possibly can. Work with professional coaches who are boots on the ground blue collar voice actors as well like who are actively engaged in the voiceover industry. That's not to say that there's not genre coaches out there, like Mary Lynn Wissner, for example, who is not a voice actor but is an amazing coach. There are only a handful of people like that, as you know and but people who are actively, who have to continue to grow and evolve with the industry to maintain relevance in the industry And be better than the AIs on a storytelling level as quickly as you possibly can. 0:07:23 - Anne Yeah. 0:07:24 - Tom Because they are getting better and better almost daily. Are they going to completely take over the entire voiceover industry? No, Are they going to. you know, take away a percentage of certain jobs of certain genres, mostly for entry level voice actors Yes, yeah. The trick is how do you get good enough that, when you're starting your voiceover journey, that you're already better than the AIs, so you can kind of leap over? that hurdle and be a human narrator as quickly as possible. That's going to be the challenge. What I think that means is the people that are more naturally talented, the people who have theater training, the people who have on-camera film and TV training, improv training, those people coming into the industry which are all parts of what defines a better actor are going to have a better chance than people just coming at it from other sectors. Frankly, i mean, a registered nurse has every right to stop being a nurse and try to do medical narration for a living, and I encourage that. I've trained people like that, you've trained people like that over the years, but it's going to get harder and harder if they don't have natural storytelling billing, natural storytelling ability, or they haven't been trained in non-voiceover storytelling. So get as many acting classes as you can under your belt. Get as many improv classes under your belt so you can learn how to make strong choices quickly, which is a key to being a good narrator. Understand the technology and maybe get your voice cloned as quickly as possible. 0:09:05 - Anne That's very interesting. I'm finding that I do have some people, because I did the series and I've been investigating and educating myself with AI companies for the past few years, i've had people ask me, and not all of them want to shout the rafters saying, oh, i'm out there trying to figure out how to get my voice cloned or how to get a synthetic voice. But what's interesting is that synthetic voice, the companies that are creating synthetic voices. They're also evolving and changing on a daily basis, and so it's really important that, as voice actors, you keep up with that, and I'm always a big proponent of if you have a business, you want to understand the market in which you're selling And so part of that market. If the market is changing. And, tom, as a business person, you're all about researching and looking at the market as it evolves over the years. And where do you see the market heading in terms of voiceover casting? Where are we going to be able to get these jobs, or where can voiceover talent find work? And I know that's the golden question, right. People like they expect a five-minute answer from me. Where can I get voiceover work? But where do you see that evolving and heading as we move on in the future? 0:10:27 - Tom That's a great question, Anne. There will still always be a place for needing agents, managers and casting directors for high end work, class A national commercials, high end video games and cartoons, high end promo, high end in show narration. I don't think that's ever. I don't think that's ever going to change. Casting sites are going to continue to be as relevant as ever and is still the the most effective way for new voice actors to onboard into the industry. Because you can. All you need is a credit card and you could just join the casting site and start auditioning immediately. The interesting part is going to be the direct marketing part which. I learned the hard way when all of my direct marketing strategies, which worked like gangbusters in 2013, 14, 15, 16, all of a sudden stopped working because, so many of those production companies recording studios that I had worked with through direct marketing strategies have moved to online casting sites just because it's easier for them to curate a roster, manage talent, manage projects. So, um, ai is going to take a chunk out of online casting sites. It's going to take a chunk out of direct marketing clients the low end stuff and stuff that would never normally get like there's audio books out there that will never get produced unless it's an AI voice. 0:11:51 - Anne It's going to do it out of interest or ergonomics or just sure, whatever that sure whatever the rights holder can, um, can afford. 0:11:57 - Tom So you also new students, when it comes to this kind of strategies, need to figure out what. How does what a success look like for them, Which genres do they want to be successful in And which portals do they need to access to become successful in said genres? So if you want to be on the next Pixar film or be in the next fallout video game, you need to get a lot of training, you need to get a top notch demo, you need to get high end agents and you're going to eventually need to join SAG-AFTRA. That's not. That's not changing for everybody else. You know the pendulum is going to swing, stuff's going to move or stuff's going to move around, but you're still going to need you're still going to need the aforementioned good training, good demo good website, good home recording. Um, and the ability to keep up with industry's trends by reading blogs, watching podcasts like this um, working with coaches like, like you and me. Um, it's going to what, what percentage of what genre is going to get lost and where you're going to need to go for each of it. I mean, who can? who can say, but if you have, if, if online casting sites stigmatize you, get over it get in there develop your skills develop your auditioning skills. 0:13:10 - Anne That was it. That was the nugget of the day. That was awesome Sound right of the day. Yeah. 0:13:14 - Tom Because online casting sites like I'm. I know because I'm on voice 123. I audition every day and I regularly see clients that are posting casting notices that I used to work with five, six, seven, eight, 10 years ago, who won't take my phone calls anymore because they're on casting sites. That's the only way they'll talk to me And I'm totally fine with that, because you said you got to go where the buyers are. you got to go where the market is going. That's where they are. That's where you need to be. 0:13:41 - Anne I think there's something to say If we just tell every boss out there, you know, first of all, um, be a boss, right And understand that you really have to stop. And I think, take a uh, uh, take a look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is we're providing a product, uh, to a market, the market. You have to evolve with the market. It's not about you know, uh, oh, my gosh, it's, it's, it's you know your voice over business and your craft and your and your art, which I completely, yes, it is. But honestly, you know, at the end of the day, right, i want to pay my mortgage, right, and if I want to have a business, it always amazes me, tom, how you know you go to conferences and I know you know when, when, cause I used to, i used to teach business classes as well. Whenever you go to see which classes fill up first, it's always the performance classes, it's always the cartoon and video game. Always those because, well, okay, so they're fine, they they allow the creativity. But, honestly, you know, beyond the fun and the creativity in the booth, you've got to be able to run a business that will make a profit. If you want to write, if you want to do this as a business and you want and you're serious about it I mean, if it's you know, if it's a hobby, that's a difference, that's a different podcast. Sure, you know, and I think that you know what you offer, you know, to people as a, a VO strategist or even just a business strategist, is invaluable. And I truly think, bosses out there, you've got to step back. Um, and yes, of course you know, create the product that the market is demanding Right, and and also know how to run your business right. And so I love your story that you know the people that used to take your calls no longer will take your calls. You know your calls and now you have to work with them on the platform, and mostly because it's easy and more convenient And I will be the first person to ask any of you bosses out there if you're using any form of AI to do anything. Let's say, create a blog post or, you know, maybe play around and change your headshot And you're using the technology to make your jobs better, more efficient, then you cannot be the person that gets upset if you're not, let's say, evolving along with the synthetic voice aspect of it. 0:16:06 - Tom You know, absolutely. 0:16:08 - Anne I mean. So, as we talk to peer to peer, i think, or pay to play platforms, i think online casting is absolutely. What about Tom? let's talk about what about your website, your online platform, your online storefront? What do you think about that in terms of being able to market your business? 0:16:29 - Tom Okay, it's funny because people coming into the industry, you know most of them realize they need some kind of training and then they realize, oh, i need to record from home. You know I need a demo. And then almost all of them think, well, i need some kind of website. But they don't know why they need a website. They don't know how to build a website and they don't know what is necessary to create an effective website. What I tell my students is that no one is gonna find your website nobody. There are literally tens of thousands of voice actor websites out there. The odds of them typing in some stuff on Google, bing, yahoo and finding you is virtually impossible. I mean, tomdeercom is over 20 years old and I've been blogging for 14 years, so I've got really good SEO and I rarely get found on it. Anyway, the point is, your job as a voice actor is to drive traffic to your website, and you do that by being on social media, blogging, creating a presence, creating conversations, creating quality content to get them to notice you. And then there's email marketing and cold calling, which I'm sure you realize that they don't work a fraction as well as they used to, because why should they answer the phone of some voice actor trying to talk about themselves, when they're just gonna go to an online casting site to cast their next project. They're already more than halfway down the sales funnel anyway on an online casting site, as opposed to trying to get them into the sales funnel through cold calling and all that. So driving traffic to your website is extremely important, and then get them to do the most important thing, which is download your demos. 0:18:12 - Anne Everything else, is irrelevant Or click it back. I mean, everything else is secondary to downloading the demo. Right, yeah, but now downloading the demo? now we've got there's the fear. There's now there's some fear that if we allow our audio, you know, freely out there and I, you know I have podcast, you have podcast. Anybody can download this podcast I've been doing it for six years and potentially turn it into a voice. 0:18:40 - Tom Okay, Look everybody. I've been doing this for 25 years. I have done thousands and thousands of voiceover projects. I've probably done tens of thousands of auditions over the years, I guarantee my voice has been cloned without my knowledge many times over. I guarantee that auditions that I have you, that I have done, has been used for broadcast without my consent or without compensation. Every website that exists is going to get hacked at some point. None of our data is safe, it's just not. All you can do is do the best you can to mitigate your risk. try to be secure. I can't worry about submitting my demo and worrying about it getting cloned. I mean if I, if I was worried about that, i wouldn't have a career. I would. I'd be quadruple bolting the door and hiding in the bathtub. There's just nothing you can do about it. So don't worry about don't worry about that. Put the demo out there. I mean because the the the odds of it happening are extremely slim, but the longer you're here, the more likely it's going to happen. It's just you know well. 0:19:45 - Anne Tom, i mean, i think I think really again, we we talk about that bad actors, um, which is so interesting in our industry. Now, the term bad actor, right. Had I not really delved in deep to talking to people outside of my own industry, i would not have known what the bad actor meant. Um, outside of, like the literal meaning of it, right, but the bad actors meaning those companies, right, or those people that may take advantage, unfair advantage, um, with the in in clone voices, without permission, create deep fakes, all of those things. There's always that possibility And I had such an interesting conversation the other day with Shyamala Praga, who is very well known in the AI industry. Um, regarding, you know, laws and regulations and and instead of being reactive which is what we typically are right, reactive, something bad happens and then a law or you know some sort of policy is is established that then, you know, takes care of it. Um, really trying to again educate all of us, not just in our industry but everywhere, that, um, these things could potentially happen and we need to protect ourselves from bad things. Um, you know, what are your thoughts about? I mean, i, like, i really love your, your, your perspective on you can't be worrying about that all the time, but are there any steps that you would recommend to to, let's say, to protect um or to be cautious about that? I mean, i certainly am not going to make my demo not downloadable because I want it to be convenient for people to listen and buy. 0:21:20 - Tom You have to have it. It has to be downloadable because, when it comes to your direct marketing strategies and driving traffic to your website, the odds of them having a voiceover project for you right now, at the time that you have marketed to them successfully and they've actually gone to your website to review your demos, the odds of them actually having a gig for you is infinitesimally small. I can count, i think, on two fingers in 25 years that that's actually happened. Representation and online casting insights are for opportunities now. Direct marketing, driving traffic to your website is for opportunities. later They're not going to remember you once they leave that website of yours You need to have. They need to walk away with the demo, so they stick it in a folder somewhere in their cloud or on their desktop, so when an opportunity comes along that you may be right, for your demo was right there for them to review, or if again another thing that I always like- to say is that, no matter what in a marketplace and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, there are I will pay for things that make my life easier and make my life more convenient. 0:22:25 - Anne So, for example, i hate, i always use this my lipstick. So my lipstick is reliable, dependable, stays on all day, i don't have to put it on again And I you know I use that as an example product. I pay a lot of money for this lipstick. Now I certainly feel that no matter. Look AI, you know pay to play sites, you know driving down, you know rates. I no matter what. If somebody likes and gangooza right and likes her product, they're going to pay the money and they're going to remember me and they're going to buy it again and again. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 0:22:58 - Tom You go to a department store and there's five pairs of shoes on on the shelf and four of them cost, you know, $75 and one of them cost $800. Everybody immediately goes and looks at oh, what's this? What's the value of this? Why is it worth $800? Well, if they says it's worth $800, then clearly it must be worth $800. So I will happily spend $800 on this pair of shoes. So most people coming into the voiceover industry are broke and perceive themselves as an employee or a starving artist. They are already immediately devaluing themselves and training voice seekers to devalue them. So it's a systems of, it's a systems of thought problem. And I'm not going to sit here and blow sunshine up everybody's butt and say you're special, you're wonderful, you're, you're going to. All your dreams are going to come true, because that's not what the VOStratigist does. This VOStratigist does not sell dreams. The VOStratigist sells reality. My job is to give you objective data so you can set, you can make informed decisions about your voiceover career. But you want to do everything you can to set yourself up for success And the first step one is mindset. Know your worth. Know your worth based on your pure talent, know your worth based on your training, know your worth based on your experience. And know your worth based on what the industry standards are. Sag After over here GVAA over there, Know what your worth is and comport yourself And it's maybe it's a little fake it till you make it. I don't. I'm not sure you can do that. Having confidence and being confident in your training and your talent and your understanding of the rates, That should empower you to make sure that people aren't buying stuff from you that are shopping in the wrong aisle. 0:24:56 - Anne And also, i would say, as a as a talent just coming in, i don't think you can expect to get into or to become a top tier you know, professional without making an investment. I mean, that's the other thing too. I cannot tell you how many people they'll be like. You know, i really need coaching, but I just I don't have any. You know, they don't have the budget they don't have And, and so in reality, there has to be those things in place. You can't expect to go in and make a ton of money without investing in yourself and investing in that, in that coaching that's going to help you to be the most human voice actor that you can be. 0:25:37 - Tom Patience is one of the most important skills that you need to have as a new voice actor. Everyone wants to start talking for money as quickly as possible and using their funny cartoon voices that their dentist told them is hilarious And that's all. That's all great, but if you can't afford the training yet, build a budget create a savings plan. be patient, find community theaters or summer theater programs that have free acting and improv training, and develop your foundation of storytelling skills while you're saving money to work with a professional coach like Anne, or work with a VO strategist you know a business marketing consultant like me. There's a ton of things that you can do. But if you dive in when you're not ready or you go with the first demo coach that you can afford and submit to that demo to those agents for the first time, it's not gonna go well. It's not gonna go well. So I'll never tell anybody not to pursue their dreams, but I will tell everybody to be smart about pursuing their dreams by having. This is what I like to say no matter what you're doing in life, do it with both hands and on a flat surface. Be smart about it, i learned that when I tried to open an Amazon box with a pair of open scissors like this, which we've all done, Oh, yeah, yeah, not yeah. Both hands flat surface. 0:26:58 - Anne Very guilty of that. So then, let me talk a little. let's talk a little bit about rates, because what is your best advice for those actors who might be struggling to find work at their desired rates when you know there is this perceived? you know, race to the bottom, with technology disrupting What, how can they pivot their approach to succeed and get rates that they deserved? 0:27:21 - Tom Learn how to negotiate. And it's not like a Middle East Bazaar where you're haggling over the price of, you know, a goat or something. It's just the better that you can understand the rate structure of voiceover on a session level and on a usage level, the better, the more empowered you are to educate your clients or potential clients, because for so many casting notices that I see, or so many emails hey, i found you on Google, whatever they've never cast a voiceover in their life. They haven't the faintest idea what the ergonomics are, what project management is involved or what the rate structure is. Being experienced it's not necessarily a correlation between being professional and experienced. You don't have to be experienced to be professional To understand there is a rate structure. I understand what the rate structure is and I'm able to articulate it to somebody who has no idea how the voiceover industry works. The more that you can do that, the more empowered you are to get industry standard rates and the more empowered you are to educate voice seekers to value you and not let them use cheap rates. Well, i paid this guy five bucks. I'm gonna leverage it to get you to pay you five bucks where you say no, you don't do that You gotta think long term. You have to value yourself and your fellow voice actors, because every time you accept a ratty rate, you're making it harder for everybody else. Every time you accept an industry standard rate, you're making it easier for everybody else. 0:28:51 - Anne Now, but okay. So then here's the question. Yes, i agree that there should be the thought process about the industry as a whole. However, you will always have those voice actors that it is their business, right? I'm a big proponent of saying mind your own business. That means, don't worry about how other people get their business. In that respect, though, do you know what I'm saying? I truly believe I want people to understand their worth in order to make a bold and take the challenge to actually negotiate that worth with a potential client. So, speaking of five bucks, i know that you had talked to me a little bit about an experiment that you had conducted using the online pay to play the F word, fiverr. And I personally, i'm one of those people that thinks we need to talk about this because it is a viable marketplace in the well viable it exists in our industry. Let's put it that way you may not agree with it and you may not feel that it values your worth, but what were your findings? What do you think about Fiverr? 0:29:58 - Tom Okay, it had been coming up so much in conversations with my students, with my fellow voice actors, fellow coaches, producers, panelists at conferences And, like I said, my job as a video strategist is to collect objective data so I can help my students make thoughtful, informed decisions about how to move their voiceover business forward. Fiverr is real, it is here. It's a billion dollar company. There are thousands and thousands of voice actors on it. So I needed to understand what exactly it is, why it is and how it works. So I created an account, I followed the tutorials, i looked at YouTube videos, i built a profile and then you build what are called gigs And a gig is basically broken down by genre. I will narrate I'm an American voice actor who will narrate your explainer video or e-learning module or whatever And then what you do is you build the rate, but you're breaking it down bit by bit. So This is what really fascinated me about it is if someone said to you and I've got an explainer video, how much do you charge? and you probably charge what? 400, 500, whatever sometime around there But if you actually broke down by dollar, how much it costs for you to record the video, how much it costs to edit the video, to clean up, process, format, save, deliver. Do retakes give you permission to use the video in a certain way on a certain platform? if you chop up that $400 into all those little individual things, that's basically what you're doing on Fiverr. So it could say base price $5, but then if you add deliver as a wave file, deliver it within 24 hours you know, we'll only get two retakes. Mvp, I'll move you up to the front of the line, If you, then if you go da-da-da-da, then the total can be $400. It can be an industry standard rate. Fiverr saying oh, we get everything's for five bucks. 0:32:05 - Anne It's more of a marketing position than anything else. And if you think about that in reality, right, if they're going for that market for the people who don't right, who don't have a lot of money to spend and they want to go for lower priced, saying Fiverr and marketing themselves as Fiverr, get affordable, then absolutely I mean as a business they built for a market where there was a hole And yeah, and now of course, because they have so many voice artists on it right. that increases their SEO value, which increases, you know, ease, convenience, of use, and so that's what makes them you know the force that they are in the industry. 0:32:49 - Tom Right. So there's three levels on Fiverr And if you earn a certain amount of money and a certain amount of timing, get a certain amount of ratings in a certain amount of time, then you go to the next level and then the top level and the people at the top level charge industry standard rates and they do fine. The trick is kind of punching through that membrane from the first level to the second, in the second to the third. I feel like that's where it can be challenging. 0:33:12 - Anne Yeah, and I feel like you'd have to work that, because I think you have to earn that right, you have to get so many ratings, and I feel like you'd have to actually work the platform for a bit so that you could get up the ratings, so that you could climb up the ladder, so that you could charge industry rates. But, although not impossible, it's a very interesting concept. And because we are talking about it, bosses, doesn't necessarily mean we are condoning that platform, i mean. But if you look at it from a business standpoint, it absolutely, you know it covered a hole in the market and logically I can see how that works. I absolutely can see how that works Now, do I love that? it makes voiceover seem cheap? No, not at all. And I think to each and everyone out there, it is up to you to make that decision whether you want your brand associated with that brand, because that's a whole other way of doing business, right? So, again, you're almost working for the platform And then that platform represents your brand versus, let's say, for me, i've always been let's do it myself, and you know, seo for me. I've been online for years and it's worked in my favor And I've built up a great clientele list And I'm very fortunate that I'm able to continue on that. And while I am a member of a lot of pay to place, i don't have time to actually audition. And you know, for me, email marketing well, it's probably not quite as effective. Well, it's hard to say. I still believe that there's effectiveness in email marketing if you've got the right message and you have the right subject line, because people have less and less of an attention span. But it's one of the reasons why I built the VO Boss Blast. It was a way to help direct market talent, so that they didn't, you know, and I basically started it for myself. Isn't that like every company. 0:35:05 - Tom Right, if you create a product you want, help You do it to serve your needs. 0:35:09 - Anne I did it because I was like I don't have time. I want to do the podcast, i want to do VOPs, i want to be you know, i'm coaching, so I don't have a ton of time, so let me just create a direct marketing product that I can use. And then, of course, i shared that. 0:35:24 - Tom I do want to say for the record I have not booked anything on Fiverr. I set up my gig, i made adjustments to my rates because you're supposed to refresh it and try to feed the algorithm. I couldn't. I also did the same exercise on Upwork and it worked similarly and I got the same results. I could not. I could not book anything. I guess that just means I'm not a particularly good voice actor. 0:35:47 - Anne No, I think it's because you didn't have 100% of your right time to really devote to it. I mean, that's what. I think That's a part of it. 0:35:55 - Tom And the other thing is understanding the economies of the voice seekers, absolutely. 0:35:59 - Anne Diversify the economies and understanding of you know, money and how it works, of the country of origin of the voice actor too, absolutely, and Tom, i'll be the first one to say I mean, we've been in this business a long time. If you were on Voice 123 in 2006, right, you remember? Freelancer. 0:36:17 - Tom Oh, i was on Freelancer. Oh good, so was I. And Elanzen and Guru, yeah, i was on all of them. 0:36:22 - Anne So all of those evolved into Fiverr. Really, that's really it was that it was like who could bid the lowest right? And I will tell you that, as a you know, entering into the online space, i mean that's where I did get some jobs. Now, did I take jobs that were probably not what I was worth? Yeah, I did, i did, but I learned quickly, you know, and it was a tough, it was a tight, it was frustrating because it was always people under bidding And so you get that type of client, but what you do is you learn about where those clients right, those are the clients that don't value your product Not necessarily you but they don't value the product enough to pay the price right. 0:37:01 - Tom They want to pay the cheapest, the biggest of the pain they are. 0:37:04 - Anne Exactly, exactly So. Wow, what a great conversation, tom. This has been so wonderful and enlightening for the bosses out there. I'm quite sure, tom, how can people get in touch with you and work with you? 0:37:17 - Tom Oh, go to vostrategistcom. I encourage you to book a free 15 minute consult. We can talk about any part of the voiceover industry that you want. I also have a video shop where I've got closing in on 30 different videos covering everything in the voiceover industry, from time management to workflow to genre exploration to managing your finances. I also have a great mentorship program where you can do 30 minute check-ins with me once a week, once a month or twice a month. It also gives you access to some of those videos for free. But, yeah, book a session with me, free session with me at vostrategistcom, and I'd love to chat with you. 0:37:50 - Anne Good stuff, tom. Yeah, bosses, today more than ever we need a strategy for moving forward in our business. So go to it, tom. Thank you again. I would like to talk to you bosses about. As individuals, you know, it can seem difficult to make a huge impact, but as a group, we can contribute to the growth of our communities in ways that we never thought possible. Visit 100voiceswhocareorg to learn how And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl You too can connect in network like bosses like Tom and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye-bye. Transcribed by https://podium.page

Embark on a sonic journey with Anne and audio expert, Gillian Pelkonen, as they explore the world of microphones. From understanding the difference between dynamic, condenser, and ribbon mics, to unraveling the pricing mystery and debunking the 'quality equals cost' myth, your hosts cover it all. Learn what makes a great microphone, how to choose the best one for your unique voice, and how to navigate the complex pricing landscape. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting out, this episode is your ticket to achieving your dream sound without breaking the bank. Transcript Anne Ganguzza (00:01.171) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am so excited to bring back once again, very special guest, audio engineer, musician, and all around amazing tech person, Gillian Pelkonen. Hey, Gillian. Gillian (00:18.462) Hi, so good to be back talking to you and the bosses. Anne Ganguzza (00:24.311) Yes, I love talking to you because, wait, hang on a second here. I know it's corny, but here. Is this thing on? Gillian (00:33.543) Oh, it's on. Let me tell you, it is on. Anne Ganguzza (00:39.433) How do I sound? Gillian (00:41.738) Honestly, I'm not even saying this because we're on. I think that you sound great and this podcast sounds so great and your audio editor who is listening to this now, you don't need me to tell you, but you're doing a good job. I really like how it sounds because I listen to a lot of stuff and I'm very critical. I'm always like, oh, I don't really like that. But I really like the way VioBoss sounds. Anne Ganguzza (00:45.727) Ha ha ha! Anne Ganguzza (00:54.953) Aww. Anne Ganguzza (01:01.676) Well, I would imagine an audio engineer listening to a podcast. I mean, that's what you do. So I think there's so many contributing factors to what really produces great sound. And I know that we've talked about studios in the past and things that we can do to create great sound. But we haven't really concentrated on Gillian (01:09.523) Mm-hmm. Gillian (01:20.43) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (01:25.707) this guy right here because first of all we were always maintaining that you didn't have to have a great mic to sound great. However, I think that it would be really a good topic. Yes, there you go. I think it would be a good time to talk about microphones. Gillian (01:27.17) Mm-hmm. Gillian (01:33.697) Mm-hmm. Expensive. Expensive is... Gillian (01:41.694) It's not really, there's, yeah. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I always say that great mics come at many different price points and people think, oh, a great mic is the $1,000 mic, is the $1,500 mic, even like the $800 mic. And that's not. always, you know, it's not always true and there is a lot that goes into microphones and I am learning more and more all the time. Realistically, the price point has a lot to do with like how it's made, where it's made, but if you break down what's inside the mic, which I don't know if any like, I don't even know if audio engineers care about this, but like there's the capsules and the transformers and all of those things that are in the mic that are what produce the sound quality that either makes it more expensive or less expensive or sometimes Anne Ganguzza (02:03.241) Mm. Gillian (02:29.928) expensive mic has the same inside design as a more expensive one, but it's just like a brand thing or that might not be 100% correct, but it is true that people will take the shell of one type of mic and they can make the insides and kind of scope it out to be similar electronics to a more expensive mic. So I don't know, it's not all about the price point, it's all about what you what you think. Anne Ganguzza (02:35.079) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (02:54.087) So do I dare ask, have you gone inside the capsule? I mean, have you taken, I mean, is that what you do? Do you go into microphones sometimes to check them out, repair them, just be geekily interested? Gillian (03:08.154) Sometimes you have to fix... I haven't opened up microphones. I mean a lot of the times like if you're looking at... well you have a you have like a pop filter windscreen on yours because I know you use a 416 and I use a KMS 105 Anne Ganguzza (03:22.022) Mm-mm. I do. Gillian (03:28.83) which is just my talking mic. I like to use it for vocals. It's one of the only mics I own because I work at so many studios. I can just basically use whatever mics are there. But this one I love for singing, for talking. It's a really good live mic. But it has like an... I wish I could like take it off without disrupting the audio, but I can't. It has like an outer windscreen, like a metal windscreen that a lot of mics have. And if you look, you can actually see the capsule in there. Gillian (03:58.784) looking at capsules is if you shine a flashlight in you can like really see it. But no, to answer your question in a long-winded way, I haven't taken apart a mic yet. I have been doing a lot of looking at the inside of like outboard gear, like pre-amplifiers and stuff like that, but microphones are on the list for me to look at. Anne Ganguzza (04:18.235) Well, so because you use so many different types of microphones, I think, in your everyday job being an audio engineer, you're not just working with voiceover artists. You're working with musicians. I'd love to like, can you break it down for the bosses? Like, let's make it easy. Like, what are the different types of microphones? Like, would... Gillian (04:26.274) Mm-hmm. Gillian (04:32.718) Mm-hmm. Gillian (04:40.398) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (04:43.908) a voiceover artist from what I understand that we're not gonna be using the same mics as a musician necessarily. So let's talk about those types of mics, differences in microphones, like from a very bass level. Gillian (04:48.407) Mm-hmm. Gillian (04:57.09) Yes, there are basically three different types of microphones and the types are determined a lot by how they work but a lot of what is going on inside of them. So there's dynamic microphones which are never really used for voice, they're used for other things. And then there's condenser mics which are used by voice actors and used a lot for voice and for detailed things. And then there are ribbon mics which are not usually used for speaking voice. So basically as a voice actor all you need to worry about are condenser mics. microphones, but there are other types of microphones that work for other things that you want to be recording. I could go into more detail about them, but I don't know how necessary it is for voice actors. They always say dynamic mics are durable. That's like, I mean, you use certain ones for voice, like a SM57 or SM58, which is like a Anne Ganguzza (05:43.945) Mm-hmm. Gillian (05:50.046) you go to a house party or you go to like a live event, someone's going to be using one of those microphones, the joke is like they're $99 and you can throw them off a building and they'll still work. Like they are so durable. They're, they're so, I don't know. It's Anne Ganguzza (05:50.047) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (05:56.952) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (06:01.801) Ha ha! Gillian (06:05.786) I think I don't know how to break one without like submerging it in water. And condenser mics are known for being sensitive, which is why we want to use them with our voice because there's so many intricacies in your voice and in your performance that need to be picked up. And ribbon mics, they're ribbons because they have a little metal ribbon on the inside and it's part of how it works. And those are more sensitive mics and use those a lot either on like, I mean, I know we use them a lot for like guitar amps or like horn instruments because you can be really Anne Ganguzza (06:15.071) Mm-hmm. Gillian (06:35.76) loud and it like smooths out the signal from my understanding of how I use them and what I know about them. Anne Ganguzza (06:41.199) Ah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so a voice artist wants to use the condenser mic. And so for our podcast, OK, so I will say in my studio here, I've got a couple of different mics. Now before I purchased my 416, I had a TLM 103, which I also have here in the studio, which I like. Gillian (06:48.706) condenser microphone. Yeah, TLDR, condenser mic. Gillian (07:03.83) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (07:08.579) But even before that, I had a Rode NT1 mic. And of course, I went through, I think, the gamut of price ranges. And I think when I started, I mean, goodness, I just admitted the other day on a podcast that when I was streaming live from my living room, my first VO peeps meetups, I used a USB mic that was the Blue Snowball. And from there, I went to a Rode NT. And then I went to an AT2020 too, which I think was... Gillian (07:16.834) Mm-hmm. Gillian (07:27.618) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (07:37.127) you know, in terms of expensiveness was not that expensive, but I thought it was a decent mic. And I think at that point, you know, what would you say in terms of the different types of mics? Cause like my TLM 103 was over a thousand dollars, you know, compared to my AT2020, which is like right now, I think you can buy one for $99. What would you say is the biggest difference between those two mics? Gillian (07:40.61) Mm-hmm. Gillian (07:51.255) Mm-hmm. Gillian (07:57.659) Mm-hmm. Gillian (08:06.047) I mean, without knowing a ton about what goes into either of them, I do kind of, like I said before, I think the price difference does come from parts. And so... Anne Ganguzza (08:10.419) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (08:17.503) Mm-hmm. Gillian (08:18.162) I would assume the capsule inside of a Tlm 103 is more expensive than the other one, the electronics. Really upgrading, when we talk about upgrading mics, it does come with a price, but if you think about what the mic is, it's the capsule, everything inside, the electronics working together, higher quality materials will produce a higher quality signal that's recorded into your computer. So, can you get a lower priced mic that sounds good? Yes. Anne Ganguzza (08:32.838) Mm-hmm Gillian (08:47.956) of we're degrading the audio quality and listening to it through a phone speaker or out of computer speakers. So having really a really good signal to start with is great but sometimes it's not, basically you can get a signal that sounds good enough to sound professional at those lower price points but I do think it all comes down to. Anne Ganguzza (08:53.927) Mm. Anne Ganguzza (09:04.255) Basically you can get a signal that sounds good enough to sound rational. Gillian (09:10.786) price of materials and sometimes like prestige of brand, at least a little bit, because there are a lot of brands that I know like Warm Audio, Flea Audio, they make remakes of vintage mics, but also they make like remakes of like a U87, which U87s are still sold, which basically all of the remakes is kind of what I was talking about earlier, similar parts to get a similar sound without the brand price point. Anne Ganguzza (09:14.343) like the Steve Huff brand. Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (09:26.727) Remakes of like a U87, which is still sold. Which basically all of the remakes is kind of what I was talking about earlier. Anne Ganguzza (09:40.211) So it's not necessarily, and I know we've talked about this before, so it's not necessary for a voice artist to get good sound by paying more for a microphone. Gillian (09:50.478) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like anything when you're starting out in a business. Like I keep talking about my tech work because it's on my mind. I've been doing it all week. I just bought a soldering iron and I bought a $40 soldering iron and the guy I'm working with has a $200 one, but I don't know how much I'm going to be doing it. I'm just dipping my toes in. I don't have a big budget for something that's not paying me back yet. And so it's kind of like this is my intro thing and it works. We're doing the same work. It works. One day would I want the more expensive one? Maybe. Just to have a higher quality. Anne Ganguzza (10:10.459) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (10:21.807) Yeah. Gillian (10:23.013) But you know when you're especially for people who are starting you got to have something to work up to and something to you know get started with because who is starting a voiceover and has a couple thousand dollars to drop on microphones I don't know anybody Anne Ganguzza (10:30.843) Sure. Anne Ganguzza (10:38.735) Yeah, that's rare. That's rare. And I do know that it took me, oh gosh, at least 10 years to get my TLM 103, because my Rode NT1, which was a few hundred dollars, did a great job for me for many years, at least six years, in the voiceover industry. And I finally decided, well, you know what? I mean, people talk about the TLM 103, and I Gillian (10:47.464) Mm-hmm. Gillian (10:57.774) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (11:05.763) I actually went for that one before I bought my 416, and then I decided that after I got my TLM 103 and I moved to a new studio, I would entertain the 416 because I was also thinking about my 416 for a travel mic. And so I think in terms of microphones, and you were talking about sensitivity before, I know that, you know, Gillian (11:09.806) Mm-hmm. Gillian (11:23.445) Mm-hmm. Gillian (11:29.367) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (11:31.803) I have, you know, sitting outside of the studio, I have a Shure SM7B, which I use because I'm not in my studio, but it's a lot of podcasts, you know, use that mic, podcast hosts use that mic, because it doesn't pick up a lot of external noise and it sounds good kind of no matter what environment you're in. However, the higher the mic price, the higher the sensitivity, it seems. My TLM 103 picks up like, you know, a fly. Gillian (11:36.526) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Gillian (11:56.162) Mmm. Anne Ganguzza (12:00.463) you know, or a breath, like super easily. And my 416 does as well, but I have to be in a particular location, right? It picks up more in the front of the mic versus the TLM 103, which picks up all the way around. So I guess maybe it has to do with, you know, it's something, it's called the cardioid pattern, is that correct? Gillian (12:01.098) Yeah. Gillian (12:11.104) Yeah. Gillian (12:22.522) I know, yeah, yes, we're talking about polar patterns. It's so interesting, I hear you talking and I'm like, I know exactly why you think these things. Because it is interesting, the SM7B is a dynamic microphone actually, but it has a cardioid polar pattern and we use those all the time. I personally don't like the way my voice sounds on it for singing purposes, but a ton of people love it. It's a great studio microphone just in the music recording environment. If you wanna be in the control room, Anne Ganguzza (12:24.819) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anne Ganguzza (12:36.638) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (12:50.291) Mm-hmm. Gillian (12:52.336) singing with stuff playing back on the speakers. It's a great mic because it's dynamic and because of the pickup pattern, because it doesn't feedback the way if you use the TLM 103 with speakers, just the pickup pattern, it would feedback. Anyway, am I losing everybody? I'm sorry. I'm just nerding out. Basically, what we're talking about is TLM 103. It's actually a large... Anne Ganguzza (12:54.778) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (13:02.419) Right. Gillian (13:17.154) I'm pretty sure it's a medium or large diaphragm condenser mic. And so the polar pattern is more wide and the capsule is bigger, so it's more precise and it picks up more sound. The issue that I personally have with the 416 that we can talk about is not everyone has good mic technique with it. And because the pickup pattern of that mic is so precise, I don't know... Anne Ganguzza (13:21.138) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (13:40.999) Mmm. Gillian (13:46.262) I don't know exactly what the pickup pattern is of it, but it's definitely cardioid if not like super cardioid, which means the pickup pattern area is even smaller. I find people love that mic because they say, oh, I hear a lot of things that like, once I have this mic, then I'll sound great. And people get a 416, they spend a lot of money on it, and then they're outside the range of where the mic picks up. And then it's like, I can't... Anne Ganguzza (13:52.703) Mm-hmm. It's smaller. Mm-hmm. Gillian (14:11.282) hear you, you know? So I don't know, technique is a big part of sounding good on a mic too. It's not just about the gear, it's knowing where the mic's picking up and just positioning yourself in that area so that it gets you the best sound. Anne Ganguzza (14:13.444) Yeah, yeah. Anne Ganguzza (14:26.803) That makes so much sense. And I know that one of the reasons why I love the 416 for travel is because you end up in environments where it's less than ideal. And so, I mean, you're not like in my studio here, I've got all my acoustic panels, it's built, it's double walled. And so I have a really good environment in which I'm recording. But when I go travel and I'm in a hotel, I don't have this studio. And so... Gillian (14:28.834) Mm-hmm. Gillian (14:39.587) Mm-hmm. Gillian (14:49.846) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (14:56.075) I need something that is not gonna pick up the hum of the air conditioner or the fan that's in the room. And the 416 I found to make a huge difference. And yeah, you're so right about understanding like your mic and how to use it and mic technique because I have to be in a particular place in order to make my voice sound good with the 416, close to the proximity. Gillian (15:02.058) Mm-hmm. Gillian (15:23.379) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (15:25.347) versus my TLM 103 where it's not as critical because, but yeah, I couldn't take my TLM 103 to a hotel easily and make it sound as good as I do here in this studio. Gillian (15:30.725) Mm-hmm. Gillian (15:35.038) It picks up everything. Gillian (15:39.614) Yeah, and something interesting about polar patterns when I first learned about them, and you can look it up. There's diagrams that show you basically the shape. of what they look like. I was always thinking, oh, like the pickup pattern, I need to be thinking about what it's picking up. But another big thing about it is thinking about the rejection. Like if it's picking up in a certain way, it's actually rejecting audio from other spaces, which makes everything you're talking about completely true. It's going to reject a lot of the stuff that you don't want in your recordings, which could be a really helpful choice when picking a mic. Like what's your environment like? If you have a noisy studio or if you have a less than ideal situation, then maybe a Anne Ganguzza (15:57.927) Mmm. Anne Ganguzza (16:11.743) Sure. Gillian (16:16.88) condenser TLM 103 is going to pick up too much unwanted noise. So there's a lot of things that go into making the decision and just things to think about to help you find the best mic for your voice and your situation, I think. Anne Ganguzza (16:21.467) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (16:31.935) What would be your recommendations for people starting out? I mean, is there a particular mic that you think would be great, or is there a particular, I guess, methodology in terms of picking out a good mic for your voice? Like, what would you recommend? I mean, there's so many people that post on the forums, and they're like, what should I buy? Like, how do you attack that in terms of selecting a mic for your voice? Gillian (16:51.63) Mm-hmm. Gillian (16:57.326) Um, well, I think my situation is different than most because I work at a bunch of recording studios so I, um... When I was picking my favorite mics for my voice, I did what is called a shootout, where you just line up a whole bunch of mics and you record yourself on all of them and then you see which one sounds the best to you. I know you have a bunch of recommendations on your site and on my site I do as well, but I guess without getting into specific, like you should get this mic, you should get that mic. There are a few places I actually, this past weekend I went into New York City, if anyone Anne Ganguzza (17:12.295) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (17:22.975) Mm-hmm. I do. Gillian (17:36.016) area, B&H, photo, video, whatever, that technology store has a room and you can go in and there's a technician that sits with you and you can try out all of the microphones. So really like my advice would be to have a chance. I know at music stores too you also have that. If you go to like Sam Ash or Guitar Center, you can totally go and try a few microphones before you buy them and all the ones that we're talking about, the 416, the TLM 103, Anne Ganguzza (17:39.076) Oh yeah. Anne Ganguzza (17:47.843) Oh, that's wonderful. Anne Ganguzza (17:53.986) Mm-hmm. Gillian (18:03.414) the SM7B, those are all there, because those are very popular microphones. So if you have a chance to try them, great. If you have a friend that has one that you could try it. But also, if you can't do a shootout in person, there's a lot of resources on YouTube of people. Anne Ganguzza (18:05.907) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (18:12.616) Mm-hmm. Gillian (18:18.626) testing out different microphones. Sweetwater is one of my favorite resources. They give you so much information and they do recorded mic shootouts so you can hear what they sound like on a voice or on the same voice and maybe just determine what you think sounds good for yourself. And then also be aware of your price range. Sorry, I'm just giving like a bullet point list of advice and maybe look into a company like Warm Audio that has a remake of the U87 Anne Ganguzza (18:22.431) Mm-hmm. Water is one of my favorite resources. Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (18:42.64) Mm-hmm. Gillian (18:48.64) for most people's voices but is cheaper than a real U87 to get a similar sound without paying the full price. That'd be my advice to do a combo of all those things. Anne Ganguzza (18:53.053) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (18:59.116) And also I know that certain companies like Sweetwater, you can buy and they have a great return policy. So it's kind of like try before you buy or, you know, and I think it's just wise for anyone who's trying out a mic. I mean, don't, I wouldn't go on blanket advice from anyone really. I think you still have to, you have to get that mic and it has to be in your environment. I remember Gillian (19:04.246) Mm-hmm. Gillian (19:15.92) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (19:23.847) Gosh, a long time ago I went into a studio and I loved the way I sounded on this particular mic and I went and I bought it immediately. And when I put it in my studio, it did not sound the same. And of course that makes a lot of sense because the studio I was in versus the studio that I had at home were completely different. I mean, number one, the studio I was in was a huge studio, had different acoustics than what I had in my room and I just didn't like it as much and I ended up returning it. Gillian (19:47.182) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (19:52.871) And so I feel like, yes, I have lots of recommendations of like, here, I think this would sound good. But I think you should always try first and put it in your environment and see if you like it. And then always have that option to return it. Gillian (19:59.426) Mm-hmm. Gillian (20:09.842) Yeah, I think that's a great point. And Sweetwater too, they have representatives that you can talk to and get on with them and be like, this is my situation. This is my pre-empt that I have. This is what I'm using my mic for. This is what my... and they can give you recommendations as well. And I don't... I've never returned with them, but I do know they have a good return policy. And also, I mean, we've said this in previous episodes, like people... Anne Ganguzza (20:19.827) Mm-hmm. Gillian (20:32.066) glamorize the microphone, but really, first off, no one ever asks you what microphone you're using. And as an audio engineer, I don't care what microphone you're using, as long as you sound good. If you sound good, I don't care, I'm happy. And there's so many other things within the chain that we've talked about, the computer, the preamp, all of those things that contribute to how high or low quality your final sound is. Anne Ganguzza (20:34.879) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (20:39.647) Hmm. Anne Ganguzza (20:55.139) Mm-hmm. I do know that there are some studios or some clients that do request a particular mic, but I have a feeling it's if you're trying. Yeah. Gillian (21:04.215) Really? Anne Ganguzza (21:08.687) I think what they're trying to do is they're either matching or trying to match like a sound from the mic from before, but it's very rare. It's not, I don't think it's typical. As a matter of fact, in most of the work that I do, nobody ever said to me, you need to have this type of microphone. It's in very rare instances where they say, and maybe in promo or something like that, you need to have a 416 or... But I also feel like... Gillian (21:13.029) Mm-hmm. Gillian (21:18.143) Mm-hmm. Gillian (21:26.743) Mm-hmm. Gillian (21:34.239) Yeah. Anne Ganguzza (21:37.743) I could be just saying that. I know I've read that, that it's very infrequent, but it does happen. But for the most part, I've never been requested to have a particular type of mic. As a matter of fact, nobody's ever asked. And so I've just only heard if my mic, or if I didn't sound good, and that had a lot of different factors to it. Wasn't just the microphone that was at play there. Gillian (21:51.212) Mm-hmm. Gillian (22:00.366) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree. Facts. Anne Ganguzza (22:06.455) So any other good tips that you have in terms of, I guess, purchasing a mic or for a person just starting out? I mean, in terms of price point, do you think, like, I mean, if a microphone costs $79, do you, you know, is that something that you think is a good price point to start with or is it, you know, what are your thoughts? Gillian (22:30.618) Yeah, I guess that's a good question. I never think about it like that, but I think um Obviously if you can avoid a USB microphone, I would just because I think we might have talked about this previously or I just talk about All the time basically with a USB microphone. You're paying the price which is usually lower than most for all of the you know a to D conversion Your microphone your preamp all of that in one and then the power source is Coming fully just from like that USB a so everything within that mic is usually lower quality Anne Ganguzza (22:43.067) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (23:04.275) Mm-hmm. Gillian (23:07.888) afford to have a preamp and mic even if they're not very expensive. And in my head, not very expensive is like $200. I would say like $200 microphone, $150 microphone, even some that are like $100 and then preamps same sit at like $100, $115, $200. Then that's what I consider inexpensive. And then anything in like the $250 range is like mid. Anne Ganguzza (23:17.467) Yeah. Anne Ganguzza (23:22.925) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (23:28.818) Yeah. Gillian (23:37.948) like 300, 400, 500, I would say that's like higher than all of the like super pro super expensive stuff is usually closer to a thousand dollars. So that's what in my brain what the range is. Anne Ganguzza (23:40.871) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (23:45.81) Yeah. Anne Ganguzza (23:50.791) Well, I know that when I'm recommending to a student, and I have a studio gear page, and I know you do too, and it really depends on their budget, number one. I think if they aren't sure that this is a career for them or Gillian (23:59.81) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (24:08.499) They may not get into it more than a few hours a week, or they're just not sure about it. I say don't invest a ton of money right away. I mean, you can get some really reasonable equipment. And I'm not talking USB. I would never recommend a USB as a mic for you to use for creating audio for your client. It's good for webinars. It's good for maybe some quick. Gillian (24:17.966) Mm-hmm. Gillian (24:24.366) Mm-hmm. Gillian (24:31.979) Mm-hmm. Gillian (24:36.174) here. Anne Ganguzza (24:37.603) Auditions, even then I say, oh, try not to because you want to put your best foot forward. So, I mean, but there's some really inexpensive mics that I think sound great as long as you've got a good environment. And audio interfaces, like I would recommend, the AT2020 mic I think is a great mic. The Rode NT1 mic is great. It's not more than a few hundred dollars. And audio interface, we've talked about this before. I love the Steinberg. Gillian (24:44.93) Mm-hmm. Gillian (24:56.412) Mm-hmm. Gillian (25:04.392) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (25:05.351) and I think the Steinberg is a great interface and it's $169. So you're not talking about a large investment and it's something that you can probably resell easily if you decide you don't wanna get into the voiceover. Yeah, absolutely. Gillian (25:09.667) Mm-hmm. Gillian (25:15.718) And reuse. I mean, everybody is online now. Zoom meetings, it's just. so much better to have some sort of microphone. And I have, there's one USB mic that I've heard that is actually like, I've been like, oh, what mic is that? Thinking it was, you know, an interface and it was just like a gaming mic, but that was like a $200 USB microphone. So even like, when I was talking about USB microphones, I'm talking about like the $50 ones, the $20 ones that you see on Amazon that it's like, oh, just get this and you'll have a microphone. That's not Anne Ganguzza (25:23.321) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (25:33.299) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (25:36.883) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anne Ganguzza (25:45.631) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (25:49.905) Yeah. Gillian (25:51.724) enough quality for professional voiceover, I don't think. Anne Ganguzza (25:56.111) Agreed, agreed. And I think, you know, going along with, if somebody doesn't have a huge budget and they're just getting into the voiceover industry, I think you have to pay equal attention to your microphone as well as the space that you are recording in because you want that sound, right, that potential audition or that sound to be decent. Gillian (26:13.486) Mm-hmm. Gillian (26:21.291) Mm-hmm. Anne Ganguzza (26:21.979) You know, and to really, again, first impressions are everything. And so I think it's a combination of, you know, a decent mic with a place that's not gonna be, you know, having a ton of echo or, you know, I mean, that's probably the first thing that we do as casting directors is when we get an audition is throw away somebody that has poor quality audio. And the mic is a part of it, you know, the mic is a part of it, so. Gillian (26:27.722) Mm-hmm. Gillian (26:45.571) I agree, 100%. Anne Ganguzza (26:51.131) Absolutely. Well, we could probably talk all day about microphones, but I think this is a great primer on microphones for those bosses that are just starting out. I mean, absolutely. I think, you know, Gillian, I'm sure if you had any other recommendations, can people go to your Studio Gear page? I know VIA Boss has Studio Gear as well. Mm hmm. For for recommendations. Gillian (26:58.315) Yeah. Gillian (27:14.558) Yeah, yeah, it's gear recommendations. So you can check it out. And I will say outside of. gear issues and mic issues. My next biggest gripe, which we can do an episode on with voiceover audio that I am like, I wish this was different, is over or incorrect processing. So that's really that starts to be almost worse. So we will leave it there. But just so you know what's in the near future for you guys, I know we're going to have much, much more to talk about. Anne Ganguzza (27:36.424) Ah yes, agreed. Anne Ganguzza (27:47.145) Well, thank you so much. Yes. Thank you so much, Gillian, for those words of wisdom. Absolutely. Bosses, take a moment and imagine a world full of passionate, empowered, diverse individuals giving collectively and intentionally to create the world they want to see. You can make a difference. Visit 100VoicesWhoCare.org to learn more. Gillian (27:49.467) Oh, thank you for having me. Anne Ganguzza (28:10.111) And I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, IPDTL. You too can network and connect like bosses. Find out more at IPDTL.com. You guys have an amazing week and we will see you next week. Thank you. Bye.

In this episode, Anne & Lau share their experiences from a recent conference + discuss how to harness the momentum that comes from events, classes, and workshops. As voiceover artists working in home studios, staying connected and motivated is crucial. Discover how meaningful conversations and collaborations can propel your business forward. But it's not just about business…delve into building relationships beyond work and find support through mentors, coaches, and networks. Whether you're a seasoned pro or new to voiceover, tune in to ride the wave of momentum and elevate your success. Transcript Anne: All right. Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the BOSS Superpower series. I'm feeling super powerful today, by the way. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with my VO BOSS co-host, Lau Lapides! Lau: Hey everyone, good morning or good afternoon, wherever you are. (laughs) Anne: Lau, I'm feeling powerful. Definitely business superpowers. And you know why? Lau: So many reasons, but tell me. Anne: Well, I am still riding the high of the last conference that we were both at, where I'm so excited that we met each other for the very first time in person, which was so, so wonderful. And I'll tell you, people ask me, so how was the conference? What was your biggest takeaway? Was it great? And I'm like, you know, I think the very best thing about this conference was the energy. The energy that I have received and gotten and been motivated by and inspired by. And I feel like it's time to take action, to move forward and grow, and really just run full speed ahead with my business. And I think we should talk about taking action. Lau: Oh, I love that. I'm going to second that. I felt like I got out of there and I was like Rosie the Riveter. You know, I just felt like I wanted to jump on things. I wanted to follow up. I wanted to stay in touch, keep the momentum going. There was an energy and momentum in an event like this that's hard to craft and create completely on your own. Just that group synergy, that team love, that family feel, right? And you and I meeting, oh my! Anne: I know! Lau: Wonder Twin powers activate. Anne: I know. I feel like we've known each other forever though. It was like, oh, there's Lau, but it was like, oh my God, it was in person. It was so, so wonderful. And I think there's that extra special juice that you get when you are in person with people that can really help to motivate you. And I know it is so hard for voice talent, as we are so isolated in our booths and working from home a lot of the time by ourselves. And now that we're just starting to get back out into the world, I feel, a little more carefully, but we're getting out there, which is just wonderful. I think even I didn't realize how much I missed, you know, that energy. And I, you know, gosh, I used to have events all the time at my home and people are like, are you going to bring them back? Are you going to bring them back? And I'm like, oh gosh, you know, thinking about putting on events, it's a lot of work. But I'll tell you what, you get so much out of it. Lau: Oh, the energy is infectious too. It's like you can't be sad. Even if you're shy or introverted — I had a few clients say, oh, I didn't make it, I'd like to go next year, but I'm a little, I'm not great with crowds, I'm not a very social person. I said, that's okay, because guess what? There was a room for everyone. There was a space for everyone. And you could be in an X session with 12 people. You could be in a speaking room with 40 people. You could be in a private meeting with someone in the lounge. So in my mind, whether you're an extroverted introvert or an introverted extrovert, you could come and enjoy and maybe not sit in a ballroom of 700 if that makes you feel uncomfortable, right? Anne: Absolutely. And then just the people that you've always wanted to meet, that you've been working with them online, maybe they're in your accountability group, maybe you've been posting and exchanging messages back and forth. And when you finally meet, you can just go to a private area and just motivate, inspire, and all the good stuff. And I really came away thinking, wow, that was, even more than Anne Ganguzza — who I've been to conferences over and over and over again, and it just has been so long. It was just so refreshing. And so I think it would be good to talk about, what do we do now? What do we do now with all of that good energy? And how do we take action to really move ahead and move forward? Because I think this is the time to do it. Lau: Right? And there's a, to me, it's like surfing a wave. I'm not a surfer, but I can visualize what a surfer is doing. And there's a wave coming. As it's coming, you're preparing for it. And then you start riding it, which is our conference event. We're riding that wave. But then it starts to come in and starts to crash, right? And then it kind of turns into a minimal, almost nothing anymore wave. So you have to ride the wave as long as you can while people's energy is up and excited. I actually had people, I'm sure you did too, Anne, that said to me, Lau, I want to reconnect before my momentum goes or before my energy leaves me. So there is that magical moment that you want to capture your clients and your colleagues in. You don't want to miss that window of time. Anne: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think, and this, I want to just not make it so much, well, of course, we just came back from an in-person event, but also I want to talk about when you have even an online class or an online workshop or an online meeting, something that inspires and motivates you. I mean, we've been getting together week after week after week recording this podcast, and you inspire me, you motivate me. And I think the energy of each other, right? We really pump each other up. And I think that's the time when we're taking notes, we're brainstorming ideas. That's when we can really help each other to grow in our businesses and really feel fulfilled. It is such a tough thing to work on your own and not have that energy. So I would say that even if you have a really great workout class -- you know, I do the VO Peeps online, because it's hard for me to do them now, of course, in person. And it allows people from all around the world to join. And I'll tell you what, there's energy that can be received from those sessions as well. And so I think that if you are taking notes and you're jotting things down and you have goals, I think this is now the time to make sure that you've written them down and read them again and then start a plan for achieving those goals, right? Lau: Absolutely. And no way am I saying you have to be in person in order to get that kind of energy and juice from your people. You can be online, you could be at your accountability group, you could be in a coaching session, you could be in a rehearsal session with a buddy. But the point is as creatives, we are oftentimes better at creating and motivating and keeping our momentum alive when we are with others that are like-minded. Anne: Yes. Lau: And I always say, you know what my precious dad taught me in business, one of his business principles was, surround yourself in the room with people who are so much better than you. You should not be the smartest person in the room. Be the dullest person in the room. That way, you can challenge yourself, you can learn things, you can share growth, and you don't have to feel like you're spinning your wheels. None of us want to feel like we're getting lazy or we're not engaged or we're spinning our wheels. That's why I love these conferences, because I feel like it's for every level. Someone coming in early entry, someone who's super advanced, who's been doing it for 15 years, they all belong. They all can find their peeps in there and they can learn and grow from them. Anne: One other thing that I got from this too is that in-person energy. And of course, if you can, I always say, if you can have in-person meetups, I think they're absolutely worthwhile. There's something to be said about -- there's people that I hadn't seen in so long, and the past few years has been tough on social media. And I am the first to say it has been tough. I am all over social media because I'm selling events to people on social media and organizing audition demolitions and things like that. And so I am a lot, I am very much into social media. I have been, in terms of engaging in social media, I've stepped back just a little bit outside of here's my event and I hope you guys can come and posting what I hope to be inspiring and motivational messages. But I have noticed that if I'm reading social media a lot, there's certain times that it becomes not inspirational or motivational and a little bit toxic, or what I perceive to be a little bit self-serving. Okay? But yet when I was in the room with maybe the same person or people that I have thought, well, maybe they're self-serving or what is that post all about? You really get to feel like, you know what? I get it now, I see. What might've seemed self-serving to me then became, oh, well, they're really feeling good about themselves. And it really just softened and gentler and more, I'm going to say, emotional, heart to heart. I had many, many times during this conference when I was like close to tears, just by being motivated and inspired by people. Lau: Yeah, and I think we've got those cues that we don't often get, sometimes we even miss on Zoom, like the nonverbals, the energy, even just like the scent of someone. It sounds weird, but you've got the scent, the pheromones, the olfactory, which gives you memories. When you've got someone's energy right next to you, and they're looking into your eyes, and they're shaking their head and they're drinking coffee with you, there's a sensibility about that, that just as human beings, we need to have in our life to support all of our online work. It can't just be online. We have to also have that real intimate time with a real social distance, you know, so that we get that sense that -- I don't know if it's a group, a team, a village. I don't know what to call it, but it's, I'm in humanity. I'm part of humanity and I'm part of my industry's humanity. I'm part of something that's larger than myself. It's almost like it's almost like the military. My son's in the military, and it's like, why do you want to do that? Oh, because you're a part of something that is much larger than you are, that has a common goal in mind. And that's what our industry is, where all of a sudden we remember we're part of a much larger mosaic of people and creatives that that give us more meaning as to why every day we do what we do. Anne: Yeah. And I don't know if you were there and you heard the Team Challenge project at the very end. It was people coming together to create a commercial for, I think it was the local ASPCA or a local animal shelter. Yeah. And just people coming together and doing amazing things. And I think that when we come together, we can do amazing things. So when we are talking about taking action, BOSSes, I would say, you know, do what you can to get yourselves an accountability group or a group of peers that you are meeting with, and make it a point to meet with them, you know, once a week, once a month, whatever that is, just to maybe go over what are some goals, what are some issues you're trying to work out. And as I've always said, I like to write things down because when I write them down, it then cements it in my memory. It gives me something that I can go back and look at and something that I can say, all right, keep on top of so that I can do what I need to do to achieve that goal. So for me, it would be get yourself a group of peers that can be accountability buddies, or even just having coffee once a week and just discussing the industry. Having a podcast together. I feel like, right? Lau: Who knows? Who knows? Anne: You know, really anything like that and write it down, write down actions that you want to take and goals that you have. Lau, you've got any other tips that can help you to really take action on this energy that we're getting? Lau: Absolutely, don't limit yourself when you do find your people or your different groups of people that you're going to frequent and be a part of. Don't limit yourself to only professional talk and only business talk. I tend to fall into this problem myself, just because I love my business, I'm really passionate, I always want to talk about it. But when you're together, make sure you, you know, observe moments of each other's lives. What is the family doing? Or, wow, that outfit. Anne and I, before we get on air, we're talking about our makeup and our outfits and our jewelry and our hair and our because that's part of who we are as people. You know it's part of our fun. It's part of our fun time. So don't forget the fun, and part of the fun is talking about something or doing about something that's not business related. It may be, you know, maybe you guys go out bowling together or maybe you guys talk about animals together or whatever because that really helps bond and cement your relationships through things that matter to you alongside your business, but not only your business, right? Anne: Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, when it comes to networking with people, that's really where the hook is. You know, not so much the business part of it, but when you are connecting with other people, are those personal things, those things that you have in common. I had a student who, you know, who brought me a gift of a stuffed kitty. Oh, my God, the cutest thing, because who doesn't know that I love cats? And some other wonderful person that brought me an amazing pair of red boots and a wonderful piece of jewelry that says VO BOSS in case you guys haven't noticed, with my birthstone. My very favorite, Lau, thank you so much for that. But knowing that, right? And so now I've got something here that I can wear that can inspire me. And I'm not saying you have to get everybody something to wear, but that personal touch, you can carry it with you. And also, I'm gonna say, because, again, our businesses are so personal, it's our voice, it's our personality that we're bringing to a read that story-tells, brings things to life, that the better you know a person, even outside of their technical prowess of being able to voice something effectively -- I know for me, when I help brand people, or I help select, what would be a great piece of copy for this person? And I know what they're passionate about. I know what their likes and their dislikes are. But I will tell you, it's always a great way to meet someone, right, when you're not initially attacking them with, you know, oh, I'm a voice artist. Can you hire me? In reality, what can I do for you rather than, you know, hire me, hire me, hire me? So I think, you know, always meeting people and approaching these groups with, what can I do to help you, is, I think, a wonderful way to approach that. And I think that's going to help you be more motivated and more inspired. I know for me, helping others inspires and motivates me. Just to want to do better and do more. Lau: I would even add in, come up with an idea every now and then. It doesn't have to be a major breakthrough that you're sharing with everyone. It's just like a little mini idea. Like, for instance, you're a branding goddess, so you might have a quick little tip on branding that you're going to bring to your group, you're going to bring to your team, you're going to even bring to a conference where you're speaking on and say, let me lay this one on you, you guys. No one would think about this as a branding tool that also develops your rapport and deepens your relationship. That's part of your expertise that you can give to people. That may be non-tangible, you're not spending money on it, it's just coming from your creative mind, that it's a gift that keeps on giving, literally, because someone could run with that ball and say, wow, Anne taught me this, Lau taught me this, now I'm using it in my business, now I'm doing whatever. That's where we want to go. We want to give value, give education, and give ideas at times too. Not your most precious ideas of your business. I'm not inferring you should give all that away. I'm just saying there's always these tips of value that we're looking to do, whether we're doing a podcast or we're doing a blog or we're doing whatever, right? That's what we're looking to do. And that in itself helps people bond to you because they see it's coming from an honest place. Anne: Yeah, yeah, I think really that's key, is honesty and authenticity. And also it doesn't always have to be about voiceover, guys. Your support and motivation and inspiration can work into every aspect of your group's lives or the person that you're trying to help and move forward. You know, this is such a crazy industry and it's so volatile sometimes, and when you're first starting out, and it's hard to get your wheels spinning and see success. I think that's where a lot of times motivation and inspiration is very helpful. I know I've got some students that I mentor that sometimes it doesn't, it's not about voiceover. It's about how am I going to be able to continue to pursue what I love and start to see success while being able to pay the bills, right? So there has to be something practical there. And so a lot of times, you know, my advice may or may not be like, okay, pursue voiceover, pursue voiceover. Be like, look, we need a parallel path. And so you can do this because you've got these skills. And so why not think about a side hustle in this or think about this, or I know it's hard, don't worry — you know, that kind of thing. A lot of times when talent will get frustrated and say, I'm just not seeing any success, you know, I don't know what else to do, and they're at their lowest point. I mean, here's where an accountability group, you know, can really help to inspire and motivate or a good coach. Lau: And maybe you even need to dig deeper and have a support group. Accountability groups do offer support by nature, but maybe you need something even deeper and more emotionally or psychologically driven. Like you gotta find out what you need to be happy, balanced, and successful. And that has been a theme that's been running throughout our week post this event, Anne, is like, I loved this particular event because it validated my thoughts that I don't have to listen to everyone or listen to noise to be successful. I can also listen to myself and my own voice. And so get that coach, get that support group, get that friend in place that reminds you — we always need those reminders — you're good enough. You're working hard on what you do. You're doing the due diligence. And you're on a track that suits you, like just keeping you on track, right? Anne: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, I mean, we're our own worst enemies, aren't we? I mean, and even people such as myself, and Lau, I'm sure you would agree that even though we've been in the business, sometimes we even have our, we need our people too. We have our questions about, you know, and we need that guide. I need guidance every once in a while saying, Anne, so you're on the right path, it's okay. It's going to be fine, don't worry about it, and that will help to reel me in. But I think the whole writing the energy, taking action, writing notes, right, setting goals, and continually revisiting that and revisiting your people, whether it be online, whether it be in person, or a combination of both. I mean, I think both is amazing. And, you know, it's always like, people talk about that discussion about, online learning, do you like online learning or in person, which is more effective, right? And I think honestly, if you can have a combination of both, right? Because obviously I voice a lot for some online learning places. And so, but I've always been a fan of in person communication and in person growth and working and classes and sessions that are in person because you get a whole lot out of that. Yeah. Lau: I got one more for the road. Here's my last goody for the road. My last goody is -- and this is my specialty, I always think of myself as an idea person. I always say I missed my calling, Anne. I should have worked for some advertising agency -- before you step in with your group, whether it's a conference or an accountability group, before you step in, have two or three ideas ready to go of how you can work with people. I naturally do that because that's what energizes me. So before, for instance, before I podcast with Anne in the morning, I sit with my coffee and my smooth bossa nova jazz music. And I come up with not just helpful themes for the podcast itself, but how can Anne and I work together? How can we better each other's and grow each other's businesses? How can we energize and stir the pot of what we're doing? So I can come in and say, I'm excited. I have an idea. I have an idea. People love that, Anne. And I don't see that as much. I don't know if you do, but when I get together with people, they're working on their stuff, which is great. But very rarely do I say, I have an idea. Let's do this together. Let's make this happen. Let's form a group. Only a very small minority of people think in that way. You think in that way. I think in that way. I want the listeners to start thinking in that way. Create. Anne: Yes. I love that you brought that up because I cannot tell you the amount of, the benefits that I have derived from working with other people and teaming up, teaming together with people on multiple things. Lau: Invaluable. Anne: Invaluable, teaming up. Lau: Invaluable, and it spirals too. Anne: Yeah, it does. Lau: It's like my hair in the heat. It just keeps going up and up and up. It just spirals out of control. Anne: Yeah, partnering. Lau: It's like, it's that rabbit hole where you just go down and down and down and down, and you just keep coming up with more thoughts, more ideas. And that doesn't mean that they're all gonna pan out or they're all gonna be successful. It means you keep the cobwebs out of your brain and you keep your motors going so that as a business owner, someone could come to you and say, hey, I need ideas for this. You say, I don't know, and I'm not sure. Let me think about it. And they're like, no, I got ideas for you. Here we go, here's the first one. Here's the second one, here's the third one. Anne: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Think of how you can team up with someone to do something amazing. I really think that that can help to also, as you go along with your own independent business of voiceover, you can be contributing greatly to, let's say, becoming a resource for the community or a community. It doesn't have to be the voiceover community, But gosh, there's so much talent out there in our industry. I mean, we could do just about anything. You know, it doesn't have to be contained for voiceover. Think of people that you know and have gotten to know and that would be great at doing a lot of different things. I mean, probably every one of the people that I work with that's on my team, I have come to them because they've had a special skill that I don't have that I need and that I want and that I'm happy to pay them for because they help me to grow my business. And, you know, it could be a skill that isn't voiceover, right, but skill that could be video editing, audio, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be voiceover specific. Even team leading or groups that they're a part of that we can be like a referral network for each other. So it's really incredible the things that you can do when you team up and you ride on that energy and they can help you take action in your business. So I ask all of you BOSSes to really just consider, consider partnering up with someone, getting your peeps together in a motivational, you know, accountability group and working together and writing things down and really taking action, taking action on the high and the motivation that you've gotten from in-person networking or online networking, whatever that is. Lau: Yes, and finally, know the difference between the people that you can grow with, that are growth people and people that are not in that sphere. It doesn't mean they're not creative or they're not energized. It means they're in their own little private Idaho. They're good with what they're doing. They're not as interested in helping you or them grow specifically. They're happy with where they're at. Just kind of know the difference. Don't have the same expectations of every person. That was something a financial adviser I heard say and that kind of rocked my world. They said know who your growth people are, and she was specifically talking to the team that you're growing. Like some people are great for now but they're not going to help you grow. Other people are going to come in and they're growth people know the difference. Anne: Growth people, if they're part of your team, by the way, you have to, you have to, you have to motivate your growth people appropriately, okay? As Gary Vaynerchuk says, you know, no one's gonna be as excited about your business as you. However, when there is motivation and there's inspiration and there's -- like I say, you always have to be like, what can I do to help you, right? When there's something in it for them as well, right? And it's obvious that you're not just about, oh, you're my employee, let me pay you. 'Cause I don't have a lot of money, let me not, let me pay you the cheapest amount that I possibly can. My, you know, my team members, I mean, I pay them. Because I think of myself, like, how is it that they're gonna promote me, right, in my business, when I'm not paying them what they're worth, or if I don't think they're worthy enough to pay a decent salary? And that's part of the motivation, that as well as, you know, constantly encouraging, referring, doing what I can to help them move their own careers forward. And sometimes that means letting them go too. Do you know what I mean? Because they've outgrown me. And that's okay. I mean, I love that actually. Lau: Yeah, and you need to be their cheerleader, but they also need to be your cheerleader. So you want to train cheerleaders, in essence, to be growing one another. And if the growth is stopping and everything's dying or stagnant or going the wrong way, then you may not need to be together anymore. You still stay connected and be a great associate and always leave things on a really great note. So you could come to back together if you want to come back together. But know who your growth people are. Anne: I love that. Know, if you take away anything guys, know who your growth people are and really take action on that inspiration, motivation that you get from your growth people, absolutely. Lau, thank you so much. Lau: My pleasure, as always. Anne: Yeah, so wonderful as always to chat with you about all these wonderful topics for BOSSes. And BOSSes, I am going to say that as individuals, as we were just talking about, it can seem difficult to make a big impact. But I tell you what, as a group, as we just saw, as we've been talking about all podcast, we can contribute to the growth of our communities in ways that we never even thought possible. Visit 100VoicesWhoCare.org to learn how and learn more. So big shout out to our sponsor, ipDTL. I love ipDTL. You guys can also love ipDTL and be BOSSes. Find out more at ipDTL.com. All right, guys. Have a great week. We'll see you next week. Bye. Lau: Bye!

Are you ready to revolutionize your business policies and guidelines? In this episode, Anne and Lau dive deep into the importance of setting firm and consistent terms of service. They explore the world of contracts and documentation, discussing the significance of having clear terms and conditions, backing up legal documents both online and offline, and the role of cultural differences in client interactions. Anne & Lau are here to help you navigate the murky waters of friendships and business, emphasizing the importance of professionalism and drawing clear boundaries between work and pleasure. They discuss setting expectations with employees and clients, and how to balance paid work with volunteering or pro bono projects. Don't miss out on these crucial insights that will set your business on a path to success! Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey, hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the BOSS superpower series with my wonderful, lovely host Lau Lapides. Lau: Hey everyone. Woo! Anne: Happy weekend, Lau. Lau: Happy Saturday. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Love that. Anne: So, oh, BOSSes, our secret is out. Now, they know that we record on Saturdays because honestly, it's about the only time I have. to really record. But yeah, it's always wonderful to see you on a Saturday morning, Lau. Lau: And now they know for sure we're absolute workaholics. Anne: (laughs) For sure. That's a six day a week, almost seven. Lau: Can't deny it. Anne: Almost seven days a week. BOSS work. Anyways. Oh my goodness. Speaking of having to be a BOSS, Lau, this week was trying for me. As you know, I have multiple, and I always like to call them tendrils -- I don't know why I call them tendrils of my business. I'm sure there's a much more professional name for them. But the components, the other divisions, the other brands in my business, my VO Peeps, this VO BOSS podcast, my Anne Ganguzza Voice Productions. Well, I constantly have clients who try to, how shall I say, not adhere to the terms of service or the guidelines or policies that I have in place. And I will tell you that even though I've been doing this for so long, and I've created the policies much because I've been doing this for so long, and I've run into every single -- I'm so sorry, I couldn't make it to my session today because… or I'm sorry, can I get that discount? I forgot to sign up under my membership ID. I'm sorry, can I just get a refund? No guys.(laughs), I'm gonna say, I have terms of service built into everything and guidelines or policies for a reason. And I think it would be a great time to talk about that, Lau, because as business owners, we need to really set forth policies so that we can run a business. I mean, it is expected that you run businesses so that you can make a profit, not lose your money.(laughs). Lau: And I really do think that ignorance is bliss sometimes. Meaning we can all live in a blissful place. I forget what they call it. There's a legal term for that. But because I don't have the knowledge and I don't know what it is, I can't be held to that. I don't know if plausible deniability is that, but anyway, we'll have to look that one up. We'll have to ask our attorney friends on that. Plausible deniability. Anne: Thank you for that big word of the day. Plausible deniability. Lau: But that's a biggie. Anne: Yeah. Lau: That's a biggie. Like, please excuse me, I didn't know. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Or please excuse me. I didn't see it. I didn't read it, I didn't catch it. And I think there's that huge gray zone in there that business owners have to really take a step back and say, okay, now we don't know if it's true or not. Literally we don't know if they know it or they don't know it. We only know what they're communicating to us. Anne: Right, right. Lau: That we have to make these judgment calls all the time. based on the knowledge of that client. Is this someone I know? Is this someone I don't know? You know, we kind of have to be judges in a courtroom. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Now that I think about it. Anne: We do. Lau: Right? Anne: And I need to stop beating myself up trying to figure out a polite way. Well, how should I put it? Because whenever I get that request, and I'm like, I could not have listed it in more places in my website. I could not have spelled it out or sent you email reminders enough. And I think what it is, I feel assaulted, or I feel hurt that maybe they're not paying attention, or they're not listening, or they're trying to take advantage. And I'm going to say, in terms of policies and guidelines, every time you sign up for a mailing list, or every time you have a client that you sign a contract with, do you not read that contract? I mean, if all of a sudden your voice is being used in perpetuity, and you didn't know it because you didn't read the contract well, I don't think that the company's gonna come back and say, well, I'm sorry. Oh, let me take that off. No, I think that we have to be BOSSes and be able to really set those guidelines. So for every client that you create that's a new client, or even old clients, make sure there are contracts and guidelines in place. Lau: I agree. Anne: So that you can get paid fairly and compensated for your time. Lau: Yeah, I agree. And I think that your clients that are running clients that are really credible, because you know them, you have some history with them, you have time, that's a discussion that you can have if you see fit that there is a real excuse, there's a real reason why something is going awry. If it's someone brand new, someone that you're really not familiar with, right, we always, I always jump to the assumption that they either know and they don't care, they didn't take the time to look at the material, or they may intentionally be pulling something. And so I just kind of go through those scenarios super quick in my mind, and then I just land on something, and I go with it. Because I do think the bigger your business gets, and the more complex your business gets, the more problem solving and decision making that you have to make. And sometimes yes or no answers don't always work based on the relationship you have with the client. So I'm with you all the way. I think that establishing early that you have policies that are there for a reason — I would also give people the reasoning behind the policy as well. So whether you do it in writing, whether you have a disclaimer, whether you have them opt in or sign something, I think it's so important, because you can always rely on that. One thing my dad always taught me is, think of your work as a legal document at all times. Anne: Yes. Lau: So if this were in a court of law, how would it be viewed? Do you have something physical in writing? Is it there? And does it say what it needs to say? And so oftentimes that's gonna stand on its own versus a verbal agreement or what you're just saying to someone. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. And it can hold up in court if it needs to, right? So BOSSes out there, what is it that they need to establish in terms of, what are we going to be sending to our clients or our new clients? I think that some form of written communication, documented is absolutely necessary. An email can serve as a contract, an actual contract can serve as a contract. And very clearly within that document should be the terms of service. What can that client expect from you in return for this deal that you've negotiated or this job that you've negotiated? You can expect to receive audio files in MP3 format within 24 hours or 48 hours or for this attached script. And I think it needs to be spelled out specifically for first-time clients, even more so. And it's easy to do that, I think, for first time clients to just have everything already in -- I have an email kind of attachment that I send Jodi Krangle, I know she, God, for the longest time, she attaches the terms of service or she's got a terms of service right on her website. And I also have terms of services on my independent websites as well. But she's had hers forever, and it's great. And it's what the client can expect when they hire her for a job. "You can expect my very best work. You can expect that I will be delivering files to you in wav format, blah, blah, blah." And it just steps it through. And it's a really wonderful way, I think, to cover yourself and your business in case things go awry. And I always say this, like, I probably said this multiple times, but I am so proud in the 16-plus years that I've been working that I have always gotten paid. I'm gonna knock here on -- Lau: See, that's amazing. Anne: — wood. Lau: That is amazing. I'm amazed by that. To not get burned once or twice is really a feat. Anne: Yeah. Lau: You're doing something right. That's great. I'm glad too you talked about emails, because there was a day when email was too new, it wasn't a valid form yet of a legal document. Now it's absolutely legal documents. So you really gotta keep your folders and make sure you don't delete them by accident. Because like if you're in Gmail and you're doing a string and you delete the string, it deletes the messages in the folder. and then all of a sudden your legal documentation is gone. So I always say keep paperwork. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Do both hard copy online, back it up. have it, have it, have it. What we do is a letter of understanding or a letter of agreement. So they sign that. Anne: Statement of work. Lau: It acts like a contract. It just says, hey, give us these amount of business days to turn this around. Here's the format is gonna -- just like what you're saying, all of that is in front of people so that they don't have the guesswork of that. Anne: Yeah, right. Lau: And then once in a while, there's a question or two, and sometimes I run and I add it right into the letter of agreement. Because I didn't think of it and it's important. Or it's an update and it's very, very important to have it in there. So it's also important that you are updating your legal documents. And I would look at those every three to six months. Like I would not let that go a year, because in a year, so much happens in our industry that you just have to put in there -- Anne: And follow up on them. I mean, you've signed a contract. Don't let it be the be all, end all. Even if you've worked with your agent and you expect your agent to take care of that. No; follow up on every contract that you signed in. And you know what? People may make fun of me that I never delete an email. But that is one of the reasons, Lau, that I don't delete emails. So I always have a trail of my client relations. And so if I did a job 10 years ago, I can do a search in my Gmail for that client, and I will have that job. I'll have all of the documentation. I'll have everything in a folder, the contract signed, and like you said, I back up my backups. And that allows me to always have recourse, including audio files as well in case a client comes back to me years later and says, hey, can you update this? Or we need a new something and you've gotta try to match your files from what you've done before. So I definitely feel that if you're upfront and you are present and you're really with new clients, enforcing that right away, it's not gonna be such an issue as if you've had, let's say, clients who like all of a sudden are kind of maybe slipping a little bit or trying to maybe take advantage. And then it gets to the point where I sit there and I go, oh my gosh, how am I gonna say to them, no, you need to pay me. Why do I always feel so stressed about that? And even after all these years, I mean, I still feel stressed. I'm sorry. No, I cannot give you a refund. You are going to have to pay for that. Yeah. Lau: Well we talk about this all the time. I mean it's a combination of being women. It's a combination of our generation. It's also a cultural thing. You know? You and I are part of certain ethnic minorities that are very much about caring and giving and pleasing and cooking and doing and providing, which is not a bad thing. It's a wonderful quality to have as a coach and as a business owner. But you can get a little carried away. You have to have a very fine line that be careful, if you go into the friendship zone with clients and there's always that fine line, 'cause iIf you do that and it feels good to do that. At least to me it does. The paperwork can get a little muddy. The services can get a little muddy for us, the water. Anne: Excellent advice. Excellent advice. Lau: You have to be very careful of that, like just keep it straight in your mind. that you've got a structure, you've got a service, you have to be paid for that. And if you're gonna be friendly outside of that, okay, but that doesn't dismiss this. Now you're feeling bad, is that guilt that many of us have for not providing or making someone uneasy or whatever, not coming through in the way we thought they wanted us to? We have to separate that. Like we have to objectify It just -- Anne: I have stop. I have to stop. I don't know why I go through it all the time. Lau: You have to not do that. We have to not do, we can't emotionalize transactions because when we emotionalize transactions, we give it more worth than it's worth. It's a monetary transaction for a service. It shouldn't be an emotional heart wrenching thing. Anne: This is not personal, it's business. And I like that you said watch out when it becomes friendship, 'cause a lot of times if you have a relationship with a client, especially for a long period of time — and I've had clients for years. And I've had students for years too. And sometimes when that gets closer to more of a friend level, then it's kinda like, oh, come on. Can you let that slide? And my recourse is, and I think any BOSS can say this, my recourse is, hey, it's nothing personal. It's a business. I need to run my business. And if there are feelings that get hurt, I mean honestly, so be it. Because right now I have to look out for my business. It's just the way that it is. Lau: I also think too, the timing of that is really important. So I was notorious for the first half of my business — because I was an actor for many years turned into everything, director, producer, coach. When you're an actor, you're never trained in the protocol of the difference between your creative life, your business life, and your personal life. Everything is just -- Anne: Jumbled together. Lau: — in there together, in there. Jumble, jumbled. So a lot of our relationships, a lot of my closest friends are my people. They're my coaches, they're people I work with, which I love. I love it. But it causes a problem in that the clear lines of delineation of like, you are offering a service, I'm paying you for service, then it's done. And then we can still be friends, has to be done upfront. Like you have to set the stage and set the standards upfront and make sure it's okay. Especially if you have a more personalized relationship with that person. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Right? Just say, hey, I'm paying you for this hour where you're a guest, whatever. Okay. Is this amount of money good for you? Is it right for you? Yes. It's great. Good. Put it in writing. Done. Done. Anne: Exactly. Lau: Let's go back and have our friendship. I think that's the respect that we wanna have. And it's also very difficult tightrope for a lot of people to walk. So when you're in doubt, I would say keep business and pleasure separate, if you can. And with the few people that you're very, very close with and work very closely — like you and I are friends, right? Anne: Yeah. Lau: But I mean, if you ask me to do a service, if I ask you to do a service, I wanna be able to pay you for that. Anne: Yes. Absolutely. Lau: I wanna be able to respect your time and your knowledge. Anne: And absolutely. And we've discussed doing projects together, and both of of us respect each other's business enough to say, okay, let's see how we can make this work in a business sense. And then once we're done with that, that's it. We're done. So we respect each other enough to know to come at it as a business. And we both are business owners long enough to know that. Lau: And that's kind of a gift, isn't it, Anne? Anne: Yeah, it really is. Lau: Not a lot of people can do that. Anne: I'm very appreciative and grateful. Lau: We're very nuanced in that way to be able to have close friends. Some of my coaches now that work at my studio are 30-year friends. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Like friends and like family. And I'm very careful. I wanna make sure I do the right thing. I wouldn't pay them for their time. I want it to be going great. I don't wanna say, oh, they're friend, they'll take it for nothing. They'll take it for less. They'll -- be careful of that because then you run the risk of corroding the business relationship and the friendship. Anne: Sure. Yeah. And I was just gonna say, employees, like your coaches and my employees, it's one of those things where, yeah, I mean I've had, gosh, I've had employees for I believe over 10 years now. And so that's a long time to have employees. And so you do get close. And I always have to approach it -- I think Gary Vaynerchuk said it, but it's something that I always kind of figured out. Like no one will ever be more excited about your business than you. Right? And so when you have employees, like your employees are not gonna be more excited about your business than you. And so therefore, if you have problems with employees, right? Let's say you need to maybe fire an employee or you need to talk to them to say that your work is not up to the standards or the way it used to be — that is always a tough thing to do. But I think you have to do it because again, it is a business. You're paying for a service. And if that service is not being fulfilled, then you have to be able to be BOSS enough to talk about that and not feel like you're jeopardizing a friendship. Lau: That's right. And you have to delineate very fast the difference between pro bono expected volunteer work, which is set up that way and work, which has monetary compensation. I mean, that's where my husband came in handy years ago because I was an artist who -- I was a director and I was directing for years, like directing for free while I was doing every-- teaching, and at a certain point he said, and luckily he's, he's a CFO, he's an accountant. He said, what are you doing? Don't you see you're giving away value and you're not getting it in return? And I said, I'm getting a lot of return. I love what I do. People appreciate me. I'm getting a lot of accolades. He said, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean true value, like get paid. You see? Now I can't say that it's the difference between men and women, 'cause I think, you know, a lot of women are great and smart and think that way too. But it just reminded me that, oh, I made it very fluffy. I made it very gray. I made it very nuanced when it wasn't. It was like, I'm doing a job. Anne: Right. Lau: There should be an understanding and then you should get paid. Unless it's volunteer. If it's volunteer, then you walk in knowing it's volunteer, you accept it and it's okay. That's fine. Right? But we're building businesses. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: How many times have you thought or said, I don't run a charity? Anne: Oh, in my head all the time. Lau: We give to charity a lot. But this isn't a charity. Anne: Yeah. I'm like, I don't understand people. I just don't understand people. Like what do they expect? Do they not read things that I — do they not read policies on websites? Do they not read emails? Do those clients not understand? Lau: Yes, yes, and yes. (laughs) Anne: And I'll just shake my head and just, yeah. Lau: Oh wait, can I add one more thing to that thought? Anne: Yes, yes please. Lau: And this is all the psychological stuff that we talk about. Okay. So whatever happens, happens; you either agree to something you shouldn't have. Someone burned you, didn't pay you, something happened that shouldn't have happened. I say, forgive yourself. Forgive that person and walk away a whole lot smarter. Not to say you shouldn't fight back or if you need to take them to court and it's fine, whatever. I'm saying psychologically, don't do the damage to yourself and rip yourself down and blame yourself and do all -- don't do that because we need to make those mistakes. We need to make those errors so that we can fix it. And we know how to run better and smoother and cleaner. If we didn't do that, we wouldn't really know. We would never really — there's no checks and balances, in other words. Right? So that's a moment of checks and balance. And don't get bitter. Get better. Anne: Ooh, I love that. Don't get bitter. Get better. I love that. Yes, I do. Lau: It's easy to get really like cringey and toxic. It feels so good to get like -- don't do it because your whole spirit of your business will go downhill if you start to do that. Anne: Yeah. I don't know. For me it's just like, don't be putting that toxicity out on the internet. Try not to spread that around. I mean, unless of course you're trying to get action from some company that's clearly done undone you some injustice. But I still say be careful. Lau: Anne, it reminds me (laughs) — you remember way back when in the dating scene when you'd meet someone and they would just unload everything on you about their last relationship. Anne: And then I'd be like, okay. Lau: And be like -- Anne: Bye! Lau: And be like, I got, I gotta work a little bit. You start to hold it. You carry it, it gets in the molecules of your muscles. And then it starts to show in your business. So we have to be super aware of that. Anne: So BOSSes, emails, terms of service, make yourself a terms of service. There's lots of examples out there. You can just search for voiceover terms of service or voiceover statement of work or what else too is a great book, and I'm just gonna promote this guy 'cause I love Rob Sciglimpaglia, (Lau laughs) VO Legal. I love him. He's got templates that you can use. He's my lawyer and I'm proud to say that. He has literally been by my side through every contract that I've ever had a question with. So highly, highly recommend him. So make sure when you're working with a new client, you have those terms of service. On your website, it's a great idea to put a terms of service on your website. You'll notice that most companies do these days, right. And so if you wanna be seen as a professional service or professional business, then get yourself a page that has terms of service. Those are templates that you can get online, and you can have your web person throw one up on there. It's like it can be on the footer of your webpage, terms of service. And it's really simple and you cover yourself in that way. And if you happen to be selling online, if you have, like I have multiple places where I sell online, make sure that those terms of services are there as well. Lau: You took the words right outta my mouth 'cause I was just about to say, get a really great attorney. Like if you can get an entertainment attorney, even better. But have an attorney on your side, because you can take boiler plates off online, which is fine, but you wanna, you wanna know -- Anne: Sometimes you just don't know. Lau: -- melt it. And you wanna make sure the language is accurate to what you do, you know, and not generic. It's gotta really cover exactly what you do. So it's worth an hour or two of sitting with a pro, a couple hundred bucks to say, yeah, you can say this. Yeah, you can't say this. Yeah. This is what this means. I think it's really worth doing that. Anne: And by the way, VO BOSS has interviewed Rob Sciglimpaglia more than once. Make sure you check out the episodes. I've got links to his book. I've got links to templates. And also with the new up and coming synthetic voice, I'm gonna say that there are companies, I work from the organization called the Open Voice Network. I'm on the synthetic voice study group. The whole focus of this group is to come up with policies and guidelines and standards for the AI community in working with synthetic voices. And so Rob has also been on a committee to help with that. And also I will give a shout-out to NAVA, the National Association of Voice Actors. They've got lots of templates and great stuff on their website. I've also worked with them as well with synthetic voices. And so there's lots of places out there that you can go for help. But I always say, yes, you cannot beat a lawyer because yeah, if you go get the template and you put it up on your webpage, sometimes that might be something that doesn't apply to your business there. So,it's so worth your investment to have somebody. And I think Rob, he also has his service where he's on monthly retainer, which is a new service that he just, yeah, put out. Lau: That's awesome. Anne: BOSSes, there's no reason why you shouldn't be prepared for when things don't go the right way, that you can be fairly compensated for your time and your efforts in your business. Lau: Yeah. I wanna throw in one more thought, Anne. If it's appropriate, make sure you're disclaimers are there and make sure they're accurate. So when you're qualifying your language, you're qualifying your business, make sure the disclaimers say exactly what they need to say because — and I know Rob would talk about this a lot — specific words like will and may are totally different things. I am going to do this with you and for you. I may do this with you for you. So there's a lot of open door words, there's a lot of closed door words that you always wanna have — I hate to say an out, it sounds negative. I don't mean it that way. Anne: No, I, I got that. Yeah. Lau: You wanna have flexibility and leeway in the language so when someone comes back to you and says, well, you promised me this, you guaranteed me this, you can say, I didn't promise this, and I didn't guarantee this. I said… Anne: As you can see, and I'm constantly quoting my terms of taking screenshots of it. Lau: And you rely on it, don't you, Anne? Like a little -- Anne: As you can see — yes. Like put a link. As you can see my terms of service on my webpage, or as per our previous email, you can see quote, here's where we specified the terms of the job. Lau: Yes. I got three words for you. And I'm not a lawyer and I don't give legal advice, but three words I love that come from my lawyers, my business, and I know you know this so much, look how excited I get — ready, ready? Anne: Yes. Lau: Ready? Subject to change. Anne: Ah, yes. Always. Lau: I just turned into Marilyn Monroe for a moment there. Anne: That's a lovely -- Lau: Because it's true. Anne: — lovely set of words there. Lau: It's life. It's called life. And you wanna be able to legally, do the best you can 100%. But just in case something happens, you don't wanna be on the hook. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Great, great conversation, Lau. I love it. Lau: Love it. So necessary. Anne: BOSSes. Get out there, get out there and research and educate yourself on terms of service and go set up some terms of service. Get yourself a template that you can use in your email and something you can post on your website and yeah. Good stuff. All right. I am going to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more with ipdtl.com. And also if you have a local nonprofit that's close to your heart, and if you've ever wished that you could do more to help them, you certainly can. I want you to visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. You guys, have an amazing week, and we'll see you next week. Lau: Bye! Anne: Bye! Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

In this episode, Anne is joined by vocal health expert Nic Redman to unlock the key to vocal mastery. Together, they delve into the significance of warm-ups, breath control, and overcoming imposter syndrome. Discover the holistic approach to warming up that saves time, enhances performance, and ensures the longevity of your voice. Explore the vital role breath plays in voiceover and gain techniques to master longer phrases while maintaining the sentence and breath system. Don't miss this opportunity to elevate your voice and take your skills to the next level. 0:00:01 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to welcome podcaster, voiceover actor, speaking and recording coach, Nic Redman, to the podcast. Hey, Nic, how are you? I'm so delighted to be back. Yes, i love gosh. I've had you and also Leah from the VO Social podcast voiceover social podcast a couple of times already and now I get to have you all to myself. 0:00:31 - Nic Yeah, we don't need Leah to have a good time. We can do this on our own. 0:00:35 - Anne There we go, and absolutely So. I've been dying to talk to you about your, what I, what I feel is your specialty. You are like the guru of vocal health and I have been wanting to talk to you about that for quite some time, and I know that our boss listeners will have such value out of the wisdom that you have to share about vocal health. So, thank you, thank you, thank you. So let's start, and actually I will say that you know, i rushed into my booth this morning and I did not warm up. And I am speaking and I want my voice to be in tip top shape and I know that everybody always says well, what you know, what vocal warm up should I do and are they, are they important and what can they do to help me get into tip top performance shape? 0:01:26 - Nic Right. So first thing in the morning there's a couple of things I think are really important and also just a dispel if you miss that kind of put people off, warm ups, i think as well. Sometimes, you know, because people are like oh, i don't have time to warm up. I don't know what to do. Like my voice is fine, I don't need to warm up Like there's. You know, I hear all of the excuses on all of the excuses. 0:01:47 - Anne I'm sure you do. It's like. It's like getting on the exercise bike. Right, i'm going to do what I'm going to do and I know it's good for me, but I don't do it. So let's talk about why we should. 0:01:57 - Nic So the thing about a warm up is it's about preparing you to be like the best you can be as a speaker. That's basically it You might be able to get. I mean, we all speak without warming up every day, like that's just life I can communicate with my husband, i can talk to my child and whatever emotion that requires at the time. 0:02:14 - Anne I can order coffee, You know I can. 0:02:16 - Nic I can do what I need to do And I could. But the thing about a warm up is when you're let's call it an elite vocal performer like all your listeners is that it's good, isn't? 0:02:25 - Anne it, i'm an elite vocal performer. Elite vocal performer? Yes, you are. 0:02:30 - Nic It's that. It's that you kind of find something extra right, and also you've sometimes got to speak in a way that is maybe slightly outside of your habitual place, like if you're in a really excited read or a really kind of sensual read or a video game or a character or something that even requires you, for example, audio book narrators. They have all of my respect. They have to record for like thousands of hours for like days and then read another book in the evening and then do another book. I mean, like it's insane. So elite vocal performers have to find something else, and I think that something else can just be longevity and consistency, you know, and a healthy voice that will be there for you and sound the same in the morning as it does in the afternoon or the evening, or that something else could be going outside your comfort range to play a really big character, or do loads of grunts or something that's just different. The thing about what a warm up does is helps you prepare for that. So the main things to focus on for a warm up are the fact that it's like for me, more than about just tongue twisters, and clarity, because that seems to be where a lot of people start like I need to warm up, peter Piper, peter Piper, peter Piper, peter Piper, and like sure, that's that's the first place they go. So what I advocate for because that's what I was trained as as a voice practitioner and as a performer is like a full body, holistic body, mind, breath approach. That being said, still doesn't have to take very long, and so it's all about remembering that you do have a body underneath your larynx, so that needs a little bit of like yes, yeah, i'm well done. Can you imagine if we were all floating larynxes Like I feel like that would actually be quite nice for me because I love larynx, but I like the visual, I think yeah just a little larynx on feet floating around, just floating. So it's about getting the body, the breath, even your head, in the game a wee bit. And that's what I love about warm ups is that you can use them. And this is my sort of, this is my current soapbox is that you know when people say, well, I don't have time to warm up, It's for it doesn't have to take a long time. So five to 10 minutes of the right exercises, because often people are doing things that aren't the most efficient for their voice. And secondly, your warm up can actually save you time. And it does save you time Because if you take five to 10 minutes to warm up before you start, you will trip up over less words. 0:04:51 - Anne So you will have less editing or let's pick up. That's important, so important. Would you see editing, yes, please. Oh my God, i mean really, i think that's all there. I remember when I had my first you know stack, that someone prepared for me that I could apply to my audio file And I was like, oh my God, i just saved so much time. If I can save even more time on me at my editing, oh my gosh, i can do more jobs and be happier, that's for sure. 0:05:15 - Nic So it saves you time because you don't have to do like pickups because you trip over your tongue. She says tripping up over her tongue. 0:05:20 - Anne That always happens. 0:05:22 - Nic I mean the irony of all that, that's my that's me taking the Mickey out of myself. Like you know what I mean posture syndrome. Like you think you're so good at this, i'm going to show you. 0:05:33 - Anne No, you have to give a viable example. 0:05:35 - Nic So I probably the problem. 0:05:37 - Anne And that's interesting because I will say that I know that when okay, before I was a voice actor, I I taught and so I worked at a school and I would do these day long seminars or day long workshops where I would have to use my voice and I would absolutely be feeling it by the end of the day, And I'm quite sure that it is a muscle and that it needs to be worked. And especially because I do a lot of narration I don't do audio books, but I do a lot of e learning, I do a lot of corporate narration And I'm always talking to my students that it is a muscle that needs to be worked And it gosh. It would really help to not trip up so much. Right, I'm always say be more efficient in the booth, So you have to spend the less time editing. Yeah, that way, get it right in the booth, and so I can totally see that. And I will say that sometimes I'm doing other things like marketing, or I'm coaching or doing other things, and by the time I get to those auditions late at night because I think my, i think all of my agents are in cahoots with one another because they send me these auditions late at night at the end of the day And I am so tired And I will notice sometimes my jaw gets a little bit sore And I'm like there's got to be something here that I'm doing that is not right. That's making my jaw sore, like I'm holding tension somehow somewhere in my jaw. 0:06:56 - Nic Yeah, there's loads of different things that we can play around with to sort of minimize those little niggles that creep up, because sometimes those niggles, over a period of time, become something that's much more sort of Much more of an issue, you know. So, yeah, we can talk to you about John, we can have a little release, but just before we do it, in terms of the warm-up and the why, yeah, save your time, because the tongue trip ups also. Save your time because and, if you like, do some exercises to release tension. Like you said, the jaw, the tongue, the lips, the Throat, the body get the breath moving. Play with your range as well, so you get lots of vocal color and expression in there. Then, when you get to your script and you are thinking about What you've got to say and the lines are there and who you've got to communicate with and all that kind of stuff, all you have to worry about is the words and the person that you're talking to. You don't have to think about your voice, right you don't have to think about being interesting and changing color and doing weird things with pitch and weird, strange things with the prosody To make it sound interesting. Because that's one of my bug bears sometimes with voiceovers is I feel like they're trying too hard to make Their voices sound interesting, yes, instead of focusing on the listener. So like what? I love about a warm-up is that when you give someone really a really simple warm-up, it prepares them and frees everything up so that their voice goes wherever their intention needs it to in order to communicate the message. 0:08:14 - Anne So I don't see your time. I love that and I and I love the fact that that you mentioned that People they tend to to try to sound like you know, or predict what people want them to sound like. So they're trying to do all these Like vocal acrobatics when in reality, we just need to be, we have to have intention and we and we need that intention to be able to Not betray us when we want to express an emotion. In that, and I feel that, yes, having not to have to listen or worry about your voice, you know, not necessarily being there for you, i think is is amazing. So I love how you've turned it into not like something that's like, oh god, i have to do a vocal warm-up into how it really truly helps your performance and I think, really to be a better actor, right Yeah 100%. 0:09:03 - Nic It's just prepping all the bit so that they're go where you need them to go without you thinking about them. That's what you know the right kind of muscle memory and prepping everything and also, like my approach is about making it like fun and interesting and nice. So I'm making it quick and easy and something that sort of slots into your routine and can become a habit. And the other thing I said it came across recently as a bit of a warm-up is useful because theory is that, because it works on the body And the breath, and I always advocate a wee mindful minute before you start, just to focus on what your body needs and what your breath feels like it needs And how your voice is feeling is. It is actually almost like a wee bit of a mindfulness practice or a mental health practice as well. So if you're someone who likes a bit of meditation or body work or breath work in the morning, You can incorporate all that into your warm-up and then you're getting like two or three birds with one stone. 0:09:52 - Anne Yeah yeah, and I think, in addition to the vocal work, the breath work too is so important And that is part of a good vocal warm-up, i assume in your, in your, in your recommendations, because I feel like for me, i, you know, a while ago I had a health issue and had surgery and I wasn't able to breathe as well because it's surgery in my chest area And I noticed that I had to start learning how to really breathe and take Diaphragmatic breaths, like big, deep breaths, and the really cool thing about that is that, yes, i healed, but also it allowed me to really understand how powerful breathing is to my performance and how power especially when you're doing long Format and when the copy isn't necessarily written pretty or written well, yeah, when the copies all over the place and you need to be able to execute that effortlessly That is where a good, strong breath is so empowering, really truly empowering, more so than I ever imagined. So in a way, it was good that I kind of learned that I needed to breathe and how much power it could really give me for my performance. 0:11:03 - Nic Yeah, I think one of the things that excites me about breath is Sorry. 0:11:12 - Anne I thought maybe yeah, yeah, well, you know, that's what happened, he's fine Breath yes, yes I love working on breath. 0:11:23 - Nic It's one of my favorite things, particularly with voiceovers, because there are some like interesting misconceptions and hangovers from like earlier breath Dementorologies in voice world that that make breathing for that make people who are doing voiceover sort of have to seem like they have to work A bit harder because they don't quite understand what's going on with the breath. Sure, so what? so what I work with in terms of breath is I I don't I kind of get people to forget about the diaphragm completely. Okay because every breath is diaphragmatic, right, it's the primary muscle of breathing. So you can't, you can't not breathe with your diaphragm. So it's kind of a semantics with the language in one thing. 0:12:02 - Anne But well, maybe I was, maybe I was meaning deep breath. Yeah, exactly, okay, Okay. 0:12:07 - Nic Yeah, so like got it. So what I might? when, when people come to me and they say I need to breathe from or with they're using my diaphragm, what I find they're trying they're trying to, they're trying to do it rather than letting it happen, and what that leads to is people trying to breathe through their belly or Deep and all that kind of stuff, and that leads to engagement of muscles that don't need to be used. Ah, so so what I advocate for and tend to explore is Just is release and flow and movement, because Big breaths are great for, you know, long phrases sometimes and For, sometimes for powerful stuff, if that's what you need. But also, similarly, breath is as much about knowing that sometimes you only need a little breath or you only need a medium-sized breath, because actually what we need is the right amount of breath for the sentence We've got to say no more, no less, and that in itself is sort of an interesting skill to play with in a choir. So all the work I do around breath is like Diver from be gone Okay, and just work on release of the belly, a little bit of gentle engagement on the out breath and on the voice And just understanding what you're capable of. Really breath like my big love, love, love breath. 0:13:19 - Anne I. So that just that intrigues me, because I I'm always talking about when, when you have that long run-on sentence right, and a Voice talent doesn't necessarily anticipate it, and they run out of breath at the weird part, right at the part where it doesn't sound natural. I'm always trying to get them to kind of you know, read ahead, understand where you might need to breathe in order to make that sound natural. How does that come into play with your breathing? 0:13:48 - Nic Yeah, so. So my thing is making sure that the breath system is responsive enough and free enough to breathe quickly when those little top ups are needed quickly and easily and silently, and silently When those little top ups are needed, because I know that often in voiceover there are various things that get in the way of feeling like you know how much type of breath you even need Right. Or you know you're halfway through ascending and you realize it's four times longer than you thought it was going to be Right, absolutely Right absolutely So. there's a really interesting thing about breath whereby, when we're talking in conversation to our mates, right, we don't run out of breath. Our body knows how much breath we need for the thought, but when you're working with other people's thoughts, in voiceover you don't know where they fucking end Like in. Some of them are, like you say, not written very well, so you could be halfway through and you suddenly realize it's like loads longer than it needs to be. But ultimately, as long as we're like engaged and connected to the words and what we have to say, that ascending is going to sort of be as long as it wants. As long as our breath is free and we know which bits to release when we need the breath to come in to top up for us, and you keep that intention of that thought in the background until the end, you can sort of breathe as much as you want. The reason I think this is important and crucial is because sometimes voiceovers push, push, push, push right to the end of a thought, and then everything gets a little bit kind of like tense. 0:15:10 - Anne Yeah, and it's not good for your breath and it feels horrible And it doesn't sound connected. It sounds like, oh my God, I'm going to run out of breath. Yeah, And the list? it doesn't jar. 0:15:19 - Nic It's not nice for the listener. anyway, sure. But, us as, as social listeners, we are used to hearing really long meandering thoughts with our friends and our on our family. Like we're used to people starting a thought and not really knowing where it's going, and then they breathe a bit to top up and then they go off in another direction And we stay with them because we're interested and because their intention is true, like they want to tell us the thing right. So the theory is sort of the same, with voiceover for me, that the sentence can be as long as a sentence in fact needs to be As long as you are, like, committed to communicating that sentence and the breath system behind it is free to respond and be flexible and and fill it when you need to, then that's okay, so, yeah, so I work a lot with helping people understand how to get the breath in nice and, quickly and silently, how to support the breath when they need to. Also how to know where the point is Sure That they need to top up. 0:16:11 - Anne That makes sense, like the organization of the thoughts. 0:16:14 - Nic Yeah, like we speak. 0:16:15 - Anne I always when I'm, when I'm talking to my students, i'm like look, we don't. You don't hear us breathe when we're talking to to one another. We're basically breathing before we start talking, maybe after we finish talking, and then where there's commas or intended commas, and so that's typically where I say you've got to figure out where that breath goes. If it's super long, just kind of organize the thought and then speak that thought. I mean, that's, if you're in that scene, you'll speak the thought without necessarily, you know, running out of breath in the middle of it. Now I'm so conscious of my breathing right now I'm like it's beautiful And you're doing great because, look, you're alive. 0:16:51 - Nic Yeah, right, that's why you're alive and you're making voices perfect. Yeah, i interviewed Barbara Housman for my for the voice quits podcast one of my podcasts And she's this remarkable voice practitioner I have a massive. I've worked with her on and off for years and I train with her at drama school and stuff And she's amazing And she always says well, this is what she said to me was because there used to be a thought in kind of drama training that was like one breath, one thought, one breath one thought. And then you look at Shakespeare and the thoughts are like 19 sentences long. 0:17:20 - Anne This is never going to work. 0:17:22 - Nic So she reframed it for me and she said it's not about it being one breath, It's about it being one thought. So like I can keep that thought going and breathe wherever I need to, because breath is part of the communication as well. Now, i know for some types of voiceover you have to take the breath out and it's like fine, although I feel like with the event, like this AI nod. So this is going on. We need the breath because it's real and human. But that's just, that's just me. But, like you can, as long as you, as long as you really know that you need to say the words, you need to communicate the thing and you need to affect the person listening, you can let the breath come in whenever you want to, as long as it's very easy. So so that's what I work on. I work a lot on making the breath easy, responsive, habitual and kind of instinctive. I try and take people back a lot to noticing breath completely at rest, and then we build up from there and then we build on sound and then we build on thought lengths and things like that. 0:18:16 - Anne So, yeah, love it, wow, breath by breath. So so, in addition to breath being incredibly important when we're talking about performance in an extreme emotion or extreme, let's say, in video games, or we're having something that's highly emotional, where we have to probably utilize our voice more than a normal conversation level, what are your tips for helping? like you know, i don't want to scream the night before I have to record, maybe because I don't want to hurt my voice, or, you know, a lot of times people are like well, don't, you know, don't cough, like try to like clear your breath, or like gently, and there's so many different things that people tell you to do to kind of preserve your voice What sort, what tips do you have for? 0:19:04 - Nic that. So for extreme sessions, definitely a full body warm up And I would also put in place some sort of mid session resets. So two or three minutes of release exercises for the body and the vocal tract, so the throat, the tongue, the lips and the jaw and things every every, you know, half an hour or so. Just ask for a couple of minutes just to reset things so that if any strain has taken place or if any tension is creeping in, you can reset things and release things a little bit. So that's really useful. Always hydrate, of course, at least the day before, if not, like the week before. Can you hydrate too much? Oh, my god, yeah, you can have. Okay, too much of a good thing. People get a bit obsessed with, like the fact that it needs to be water And they carry these water things around that like petrol cans. Like I got eight litres of water, yeah, yeah, that's like my arm would fall off a and be I'd be, i'm waiting all the time anyway, like the last thing. It is eight litres of water. So the the the general guideline at the moment is Is one mil per calorie burned right per day. 0:20:12 - Anne Is sufficient to keep you hydrated. 0:20:14 - Nic So for for a female that's like 1500, for a male That's about 2000, depending on your exercise. So if you exercise more you might need a little bit less. Right you're lazy, alfakar, and you're on the sofa all the time, then you'd probably be fine, but it's also about your diet as well. So if again, if you are a Raw food vegan living in a rain forest, you're probably gonna need you're probably getting more water from your food and hydration from your food than someone who, like, lives in the city and eats frozen pizza all day. But right so it's a whole list, completely holistic thing, like its environment, it's food, it's the fluids you take in. all fluids count towards systemic hydration, so that's hydration of the whole body. So anything you drink that's wet will help you hydrate and counts that even coffee I was gonna. 0:21:07 - Anne I was just gonna say so. I have to have my cup of coffee every morning. You know I have about one, one cup, and people are always like don't drink coffee, it will hot D You know it will, you know it'll dry you out. And I'm like, well, i always chase it with a lot of water. So I mean that's oh good, that for me it worked. So I really do. I mean, i try not to drink a ton of coffee before a session in the morning. But here's a question Sometimes these days, these days, i utilize the morning hours because my voice just tends to be a little bit lower Before it's warmed up to actually do some voiceover work. Is there a way that you can warm up so that you can maintain that kind of a? and what is that phenomenon? What is that phenomenon where your voice is lower in the morning typically? 0:21:55 - Nic so my hypothesis for this is that you're more released, so the vocal folds to. To change pitch, i e go higher and lower the vocal folds Get longer and thinner to go high Okay and shorter and fatter to go low, and it's also about and then they vibrate. Have different number of oscillations per second right because of the size. The. The higher and lower you, the higher you go. This slightly more stretched, intense the vocal folds get. Mm-hmm the lower they are, the more slack they are. Okay, yep, been asleep on lion flap with your lovely natural breath, you know, not worrying about anything. All your muscles are released, your throat's released and rested, and lovely, i would imagine in the morning your vocal folds are just a little bit fatter and more released. Ah, no offense, look at those fat folds. 0:22:50 - Anne Vocal foes. Hey, I don't mind having fat vocal folds and I sometimes people pay me for those. For those fat vocal folds, show me a fire in the morning, yeah great, it's great, so I think that's what it is. And then the more you talk during the day, mm-hmm the more your body ticks on. 0:23:04 - Nic A wee bit of tension, the more your larynx takes on a wee bit of the tongue, everything takes on a bit more tension, so it's slightly harder to get those folds to that more relaxed. 0:23:13 - Anne God, the fat place and is there a way to get them back to the fat place outside of? I'm gonna say vocal placement Right, right to do that, or tension release, really Yeah. 0:23:24 - Nic So I'm interesting gentle exercises That encourage a bit releasing the muscles around the larynx and in the vocal tract So you can do tongue release, jaw release, yawns to open and release the the back of the throat a little bit. Okay, Yeah gentle kind of rehab style, glides up and down your pitch on Whatever. A particular semi-occluded vocal tract exercise works best for you. So semi-occluded exercises are exercises that utilize a sound that sort of partially closes the mouth, so a classic one that everyone knows is a little For some people a little is quite a lot of effort and not the right one for them other versions might be a gentle, puffy kind of Signed and or another one might be just a puffy th, so So, hmm, kind of sounds create a particular acoustic environment in a throat that allows vocal full vibration with minimal input. 0:24:22 - Anne Mmm, and that's a way to release tension. Yes, oh, okay, so do you win? Okay, so You, you work with students independently on vocal exercises, health preparation for. so take me through like what's a what's a typical with you, like, how do you assess my vocal health and my vocal performance? Okay, or just tell me what. you don't have to take me through it. I'm just don't describe what. what's the process of that? 0:24:57 - Nic I I do a lot of ninja listening, so, uh, if the first time you have with me, you're probably like why are we chatting so much and not like just getting started And then I'm like I've been listening to you. 0:25:07 - Anne Uh, but I talk to people. Have you been listening to me so far? 0:25:15 - Nic Like now. 0:25:15 - Anne I'm really piqued my interest. 0:25:18 - Nic So yeah, i do a little. Uh, i don't know if you have Sherlock Holmes, the uh program, like the British program with Benedict Cumberbatch over in America, but he does these like really amazing scans where he looks at somebody and does nose. Everything about him is like so do a cheeky weekend of Sherlock Holmes scan Like voice assessment with that's what part of my training is is being able to listen and go. Oh, i hear this, i hear that, i hear the other. Um, so I do that while we're having to be, chat and make a few notes. I also collaborate that with why you've come. So you know, someone may have come going. I'm losing my voice and I don't know why. Sure, And I will listen and go. Well, that's this, or someone will go. I'm losing my voice And it's because X, y, z And I will go. I don't think it is actually. I think it's this, or or I'll go. Yes, you're right but, let's all try this. So so it's a bit of a collaborative process And I I talk a lot about you know what the needs are, uh, what they expect from it, you know how long we've got together that kind of thing, and we just sort of piece together a bit of a strategy. It's very explorative and it's very bespoke and back and forth And I describe it like kind of sadly as a journey. It's like a journey you know, like. so we like I don't do one to one's really anymore, i do two session, quick top ups or six session kind of packages, because we start together in one place And sometimes by session three we've actually realized it's something completely different and that's often can be a bit disarming or exciting or interesting and you just have to, as a voice, as a voice technique coach, you just have to respond to that. You know I have to teach what's in the room or the zoom. 0:26:49 - Anne Sure That makes sense In front of me Same with any coaching really. 0:26:53 - Nic Um. So you know there's no one size fits all. Right, it's a very back and forwards process. Sometimes I give you stuff I said go away working that for a couple of weeks, give me a shout, how's it going, and we go. Well, this is working. That's not working. And you know, we, we assess it really as we go along. Um, so it's a. It's a really lovely, lovely process. I love one to ones because it's so bespoke. And at the moment I tend to get a lot of people who are like I've tried this, i've tried this coach or that coach or the other coach, and we still can't work out what this is. So, um, and sometimes that's nothing to do with the coach, it's just the learning place the person is in, or you know what's going on in their life. Maybe they weren't open to receiving certain information you know, but you know some. Often it takes a wee while to find the right coach for you and stuff, and you know people come to me and maybe go someone else, like like that's just what happens, um, but yeah. I do get a lot of. what's this weird noise My nose makes, or I can't work out what's happening on this cluster of signs, All that kind of or why am I? you know? quite specific stuff. I'm not the moment, uh, Mike, specific stuff, which is what my book's about. It's like, it's it's voice for Mike users. 0:27:59 - Anne Oh, so let's talk about that, because you do, you have a, you have a new book out, i do. And let's talk about that, because I was just going to ask you about um for being on the mic. What are your tips for being on the mic? So this is phenomenal that you've got a new book out. I do. 0:28:15 - Nic It's called on the mic. Okay, straight forward. 0:28:19 - Anne There you go. 0:28:20 - Nic It's called on the mic and it's voice training for voiceover artists, podcasters, speakers and presenters, so basically anybody who uses a microphone, because that seems to be the people that come to me Sure. Sure, absolutely. And yeah it's been really it's been a really interesting and exciting journey, kind of consolidating all my knowledge into what I'm doing, Into that sort of a place, Um, I think, for there are a couple of things with Mike. Speaking is number one. Um, there's a different type of energy that's needed. So and this again, this can differ from me sat here in Mabouth with this mic to somebody stood on a stage doing an expert speaking gig, Um, so it's about understanding the energy that you need for the space that you're in and the breath that you might need for the space that you're in and I think also as well the style of the delivery is really interesting and how you can use the right kind of voice warm up exercises to get you to a particular space. So if you have to sound conversational for your podcast, there are certain things you can do that are good for that. If you need to get ramped up and deal with your adrenaline to host a conference, then there are certain things you can do for that. So the whole point of the book is to like go through a lot of scenarios, go through the voice training process that I advocate, which is body, breath, sound speech, and just end up with a big fat, a toolkit of things that you can piece together in a way that works for whatever mic context you need. 0:29:44 - Anne I love it. I love it Now. Is this your first book? 0:29:48 - Nic Yes, I mean, I think I'd written Instagram Instagram captions. I was about it Right. 0:29:53 - Anne Right, well, i know I feel like I've written a ton of blogs and I know you've got a great blog out there too. Um, and I'm part of your newsletter, so, um, yeah, so that's so. It's very exciting. So, your first book, and what was that process like? Did it take? like I I'm, because I, of course, you know I'm, i'm thinking about it, and of course everybody says, and you need a book. So, um, writing a book to me, i'm just, i have so much respect because I know how much time well, i know how much time it must take, so what was the process like for you? 0:30:26 - Nic Um, I really enjoyed it, actually really enjoyed it. The hardest bit was starting like with everything, Right, i did a lot of procrastinating. I did a lot of having my whether you believe in it as not imposter syndrome on my shoulder going what are you doing? Who do you think you are? Um, so I did a lot of inviting my imposter syndrome to sit with me while I while I explored what was happening, i was like come on then. 0:30:48 - Anne We'll do it together. 0:30:50 - Nic Um, as soon as I started each little writing session, I I was great, I loved it, I mean you get to the end of the first draft and then you're like what the hell is this? So, actually, what was more exciting and interesting and fulfilling was the editing process and playing around with it. So my advice is set we, set we taught. Set we targets, we regular targets that are achievable for you. Don't edit as you go, cause I got caught up in that and it took me longer, longer than I wanted to to get to the end of the first draft, but just get a first draft done And you could let you. and, interestingly, what happened for me was it started as one book and by the time I'd finished the draft it was another book. So you know it sort of had to go back and and, um, change things up a wee bit. But I actually really enjoyed it. I feel, very proud, but also, you know it's scary, it is a scary thing putting it out there, but you just have to remember who you're writing it for. You know I spent a lot of time as well, you know, basking in the shadows of the greats who've come before me And like there are so many incredible practitioners out there who I still learn from daily and whose books I read and who I just think are remarkable. And I did do a lot of. what if they think my book's terrible? and my business coach was like, who are you writing the book for? And I was like well, my clients. and they're like so does it? like I know what matters to you. 0:32:13 - Anne Do they think you're terrible? Probably not. No, do they care? 0:32:17 - Nic No, they have been asking you for a book, So they're going to be really excited. And do you think those people who you think are amazing are going to look at you and go, ugh, gross, you wrote a book. Or are they going to go? 0:32:29 - Anne that's well done, we've been there actually About time, right About time, there we go, fantastic. 0:32:34 - Nic Yeah, i've had some lovely. I reached out to a few mentors to help me, like, edit a little bit and they were really complimentary, so I'm really pleased with it. I feel it is the first one. 0:32:47 - Anne Well, I am so excited I'm going to rush out and get it. So how can bosses get this book? 0:32:54 - Nic Yeah, so it is on my website. If you go to onthemikbookcom Okay, Onthemikbookcom it should take you to the page we can buy. Perfect, Actually, it'll be. It's on Amazon. 0:33:09 - Anne And it'll be on Amazon as well, yeah, just do that Fantastic. And how can people get in touch with you in addition to buying your book? How can they get in touch with you if they want to work with you? 0:33:21 - Nic Oh well, probably my website, Nicrebinvoicecom. That's probably the best thing I'm also on the island, stern tic-toc and all that kind of nonsense too. So you can probably find me anyway by putting Nic Redman in Perfect perfect. 0:33:35 - Anne Well, Nic, it has been a pleasure. Congratulations. I'm very excited I'm going out there and getting a book now because I and I actually I want to be contacting you because I do have some questions about how maybe you can custom work with me with some of my voice questions that I have. So thank, you so? much again. Yes, absolutely, bosses. Do you have a local nonprofit that's close to your heart? Well, if you ever wish that you could do more to help them, you certainly can Find out more at 100voiceswhocareorg to learn how. And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network like Bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Bosses, have an amazing week, Nic. Thanks so much. We'll see you next week. Bye, all right. Transcribed by https://podium.page

Anne & Gillian continue their discussion on Boss Equipment Necessities, providing even more valuable insights on what essential audio equipment you need in your booth. They discuss the importance of selecting studio headphones that offer both comfort and accuracy. They also delve into the convenience and limitations of USB microphones, as well as providing a comparison of costs and quality of audio interfaces. Additionally, they share tips on where to get tech support and test gear in person. You definitely don't want to miss this conversation... It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host Anne Ganguzza, and I'm excited to bring back to the show today creative freelancer, audio engineer, musician Gillian Pelkonen for another episode in our BOSS audio series. Gillian: Hello (laughs). Anne: Hey, Gillian. Gillian: How's it going? Anne: It's going great. So we've had some really intense conversations about our home studios. First of all, talking about where to locate your home studio in your home, where good place is, a little bit about sound absorption. Then we had a really cool, interesting episode, I think, on all the equipment that people don't think about that's required to run our voiceover business. Now we're gonna talk about all the obvious ones that I think people always, they love to talk about these, and -- Gillian: This is the exciting stuff. Anne: I think the other stuff is exciting. I think actually people don't get excited enough about the other kind of technologies. So -- Gillian: I mean, (laughs), we know you're gonna marry the internet. Anne: Yes. Gillian: I have a spiritual connection to unboxing Apple products. Anne: Yes, there you go. Gillian: But the air quotes exciting stuff that everyone loves to harp on. Yes. Anne: I dare say that I have a spiritual connection to my headphones, (laughs) to my headphones, and, and I know that people are always asking me, what are your headphones that you wear? Because I love wearing colorful headphones because it's part of my brand. And I actually have like all different colors of headphones right here with me. Gillian: Wow. Anne: I've got a lovely deeper blue here. Gillian: You guys, if you're not watching, go to YouTube right now and you gotta see this. Anne: Then we've got the royal blue here, which I love, and then of course I've got black. I actually have an alternate pair of the red ones and okay. So I think, can we talk about headphones (laughs)? Gilliann: Yeah. I mean, let's start. Anne: I've already started. Gillian: So we talked computer, you have your computer, you have your internet connection, you have your isolated space, and it's soundproofed to whatever fits your budget and what you need right now to be isolated. Anne: And your internet connection and website. Gillian: Oh yes. Anne: Right? Gillian: Yes. Oh, and website. Yes. Anne: And website. Gillian: That is definitely important. Headphones. So important because you can't, you can't be playing out loud while you're recording (laughs). Anne: Now here's the thing, there's reasons why we wear headphones. Okay? So what are the primary reasons you wear headphones, Gillian? Gillian: Well, just in my everyday life, there's the convenience of being able to listen to whatever I want and to be able to hear that. But for recording, when you're recording voice, if you are playing out loud what you are recording, you will get feedback. And I don't think you will on the scale of a small computer, but there are a few studios that I've worked in, and when I was very new and prone to making mistakes -- obviously continue to make mistakes and learn from them — but when we had big speakers and we were recording in the same room, you definitely get a nice ear cleaning with that high pitch feedback. Because having an open source, you're DAW, armed and ready to record, and that -- it just creates a loop of sound, if you think about it, what's going into the mic, coming outta the speaker, into the mic, outta the speaker, and that just ruins it. Anne: So well, okay. So there's a big debate in the voiceover world about, do you need headphones while recording? Because there's a lot of people that say you do not. It helps you to sound more natural. Okay? And of course you don't wanna have your speakers on either or your monitors. Gillian: Oh yeah. That's what I'm thinking of. But this is interesting. Anne: Yeah. So do you have your headphones on while you're recording? Because a lot of times, it's distracting listening to yourself, what you sound like in your headphones. So for me, okay — some people adopt the whole, I'm not gonna wear my headphones at all because it makes me sound more natural. I'm not listening to what I sound like in my ears. Some people do one ear on, one ear off to help that as well while they're recording. And some people wear them. Now I, years ago, started wearing them because I had a lot of sound outside of my studio. And I needed to be able to put my headphones on to hear if it was going to come through in the recording. And some things like my naked ears couldn't hear like the vibration of the truck that was a mile away coming down the road, and somehow vibrationally it came up through my studio. And the jackhammer that was maybe not right outside my door, but down the road because they were constructing new homes. So for a long time I got used to wearing my headphones just to make sure I could step in the studio to make sure that I couldn't hear those sounds coming through my microphone. And then I just continued to wear them. Now I've done both, take them off when I'm recording or keep them on. A lot of times, if you think of it this way, (laughs), and this is not a popular opinion, I will have my headphones on while I'm recording because I feel that whatever you hear in your headphones is just you amplified. And if you are an accomplished actor that can act like you, without paying attention to what you sound like in your headphones, you can wear headphones. And for me it's something that, it's kind of on a day-to-day basis. I'll probably wear my headphones more often than not, just because I've been doing this for a very long time, and all I do every day when I coach is tell people not to listen to what they sound like and to just be themselves. And so I wear my headphones. Plus I do a ton of editing, I do a ton of coaching, and so I need to, and I don't have monitors, number one for the very technical reason is honestly I just don't have space. I don't have space to put a nice pair of monitors on my desk. So I wear my headphones when I edit. And so headphones to me have to be comfortable. And they have to be studio headphones of course. And that should be a given. Anybody, any BOSSes out there that are just starting in the industry, make sure they're studio headphones, and they're not any other type of headphones that's gonna add more base or more treble or that adds prettiness to it. You just need studio headphones so you can hear the raw output. Gillian: Yeah, it's definitely an interesting conversation. I think my advice is gonna be the same as always. My advice is just try 'em all and see what works. I personally, when I am singing, I do one ear on, one ear off, mostly for pitch, because how you sound in your head, it's all relative and different. I think that there are some things to be concerned about. Obviously if there is extraneous noise coming on your recording, you wanna be aware of that. But if you're connecting to a client, really if there's an engineer on the session, they should catch that. Like, that's my job when I'm working with talent. Another issue, sometimes I hear the movement of headphones, but I've never really asked talents what they're doing. And maybe it's putting them on and off, but there are a lot of moments functionally during a session when a director is gonna wanna get your attention. And so if you're just rocking without headphones, that's something to just consider. Anne: Yeah. You'll have to hear them. And you just said something, I don't mean to interrupt, but you just said something that made me think the physical sound of your headphones. Believe it or not, if like -- these headphones, the exterior is, there's some plastic components here. As they get older, believe it or not, if I move my head, because we're very physical as voice actors behind on the mic, as I move my head, they make noise. And that noise comes in through my recording. And I, I remember for the longest time there was this tiny little click, and I was like, I don't have a mouth click. Where's that coming from? It was coming from my headphones. And so for me, I found a way to, I actually had bought a new pair of headphones so that they didn't -- they weren't really squeaking, but they were making plasticy noises. And I know that's not a technical term, but it's a noise where like if I do this (clacking nails on headphones) -- Gillian: Yeah. Anne: — you can hear that. It wouldn't be that loud, but it would be something similar to that. And so -- Gillian: Interesting. Anne: Yeah. For those of you guys listening to that, I was simply just squeezing the headphone earpiece with the headpiece together -- Gillian: To get that plasticy -- Anne: To get that plasticy sound. Gillian: — noise sound. Well, there's another thing that I've noticed with headphones that's important to note -- just this is more function than which headphones to get. But, and it could be 'cause people are taking them off. But a lot of times I'll be working with the talent's audio from a session we just did, and through their recording I can hear everyone else talking. And this doesn't really happen during the recording, but I can hear myself slating things not recorded. So I don't know, if you're taking your headphones off and you're putting them down, you gotta think about, okay, if someone starts talking or if there's other noises, those are gonna get directly into the mic. Or if your headphones are too loud, there's gonna be too much bleed. So just things to think about when we're talking about headphones. Anne: Two good points. I wanna actually go back on that, right? If you put your headphones down and obviously you're not hearing (laughs) other things, right, other noises can come through them. And also you mentioned bleed. Bleed is important because right now I'm really, really close to my microphone. And depending on the volume that you have your headphones turned up to, and I'm a little older so I might need a little higher volume. And so sometimes you have to be careful that the sound coming through your headphones doesn't bleed back through your mic. And for that reason I have closed headphones. And that's why I recommend closed headphones for most voice actors, if that's the case. If you're gonna be sitting out just doing editing all the time, I don't think they need to be closed backed. If you're just gonna use 'emfor editing. Gillian: If you're watching us, I have open back headphones. But I just got these recently, these are like the Sennheisers, I think the HD 600s. That's what I thought. And I have these mostly for mixing and I I listen through them 'cause they're really comfortable. But my closed headphones, I also have AudioTechnicas. They were my first headphones, like pro headphones; they're amazing. The pair that I had was under a $100. I've had 'em for years. They're amazing. So whoever is saying that you need really expensive headphones for amazing sound, you don't. There's lower models that are great and then you can upgrade. There's a whole range of AudioTechnicas that get more precise or, or just have different features that you can invest in if you wanna spend more. But there should be no barrier to getting, I think they're $70 or something like that, which -- Anne: Well, I'll have to tell you about mine that have the color. because people are always asking me. And I do have, I do have a studio gear page off of AnneGanguzza.com and as well as the VO BOSS page studio gear that I recommend. And by the way, I don't put anything on this page that I don't use or have not owned. And I will say that I love AudioTechnica headphones as well. And of course before this turns into an AudioTechnica podcast -- which it's amazing, there's lots of great headphones out there. The one thing that I love about AudioTechnicas is for me they're super comfortable. I literally wear my headphones when I'm on coaching days and I'm coaching eight hours at a shot. I have them on my head eight hours. Because again, like I said, I don't have monitors in my room and plus my husband works upstairs, and so I wanna be able to keep things at a minimum. And so they have to be super comfortable. I have to be able to hear the talent, right, to be able to direct them. So for me, they are amazing. They're a little more than $100 because of the color, the special additions they are the MX 50s and in whatever color -- I don't believe they make the red anymore, but if you're lucky you can find them somewhere, somewhere out there. There'll be an extra pair that somebody has that's still new in the package. I've bought three pairs of red 'cause red is discontinued. My royal blue has been discontinued. Every year they come out with a new color. And so every year I find it necessary to buy another color just because I'm on the camera a lot and I love -- and they make me happy. Right? If you're gonna have on your head for a long time, they should make you happy. Gillian: And comfortable, most important. Anne: Yeah, and they should be comfortable. Gillian: -- don't need a headache. Anne: — be accurate as well. Right? So for that reason, the AudioTechnics are my faves, and I do own a pair of Paradynamics. I've owned the Sony, oh gosh, I think it was the 7507s, I believe. And the one thing that I didn't love about the Sonys, although I love the sound, was the actual cable that connects was a twisted cable. And what happened is they never traveled well. They became entangled within themselves. And if you've ever had a coiled wire get tangled in itself, and you try to pull it apart, it's horrible. It just gets twisted onto itself. And so I love the AudioTechnicas 'cause they always have the straight cable that you can use and it doesn't get twisty. And that may seem like a very silly reason to love the AudioTechnicas, but that's one of many reasons why I love that. But it's a viable reason because the twisty turn coiled cables, they're not fun to get them untangled when they get tangled, especially when you travel with them and you're trying to wrap them around -- Gillian: No. Anne: — the headphones. Gillian: Definitely not. And something to think about when we're talking, all of these things are essentials. And I'll just tell a brief, brief story, but the other day I was doing a session with a voice talent, and we were having all of these issues. I still don't know -- I was on the session, but I wasn't the head engineer of it. So I don't know exactly what happened. But we think that between when we were testing with the talent to when we pulled the client in, their headphones broke because they magically could not hear us. Anne: Oh wow. Gillian: And you need to have an extra pair because you can't be on a session without having an extra pair of headphones. It's super — and I'm sure we'll say, and I know, Anne, you've said before in the past, you need backups of your backups. But definitely even if you have your splurge pair and you have a less expensive pair just to use in case of an emergency, there could be a chance that you're on a session, and in the middle it breaks, and you can't continue the session without the pair of headphones. So just don't forget about having some, a little insurance on your sound. Anne: Yeah. And you know that, it's interesting that you mentioned that, and I talk about headphones so much because when I'm connecting with students through ipDTL -- and this would be just like me, I would be the studio and they would be connecting through Source Connect or ipDTL — you have to have headphones to avoid that feedback. when you're connecting via those methods. And simply earbuds are not the best because sometimes they don't fit your ear properly. There's bleedthrough and honestly closed back headphones are probably the best for any kind of studio session you're going to have. And I just say yes, I totally agree with you, Gillian, about the backup. Because I have had people who like all of a sudden they're like, oh, I can't hear you. And I'll be like, do you have another pair of headphones? And at that point if you even have a backup like set of EarPods works but in a pinch. But really have an extra set of headphones in case that happens. Because the last thing you want is for you to lose connectivity with your client to be able to hear what they're saying and to do your job. I mean it is part of your job. So have a backup, and honestly most headphones are not expensive. I, I'm going to tell you the AudioTechnicnas, even these, the new versions that they come out with are about 160 some-odd-dollars. The navy blue ones I just bought were like $169. So they're not tremendously expensive at all. And I know you can get some fabulous head phones for less than $100 for $99. I think that's what my Sonys were that I bought. So well worth the investment. So in terms of headphones, make sure that they're studio headphones. Make sure -- I like to say close back if you're gonna be using them for any kind of recording at all 'cause you don't want the bleedthrough. If you're gonna sit there and edit all day, yeah, maybe open back or others will work fine for you. Make sure they're comfortable for your head. And especially if you wear glasses 'cause you don't want them to push in on the glasses and then have the glasses give you a headache. That's the last thing. Gillian: Yeah. Anne: All right. Gillian: Okay. Should we lightning round a little bit the rest of some of the other things that we might need? Anne: Yes. Gillian: Because I know, I know what I'm thinking. Anne: Microphone. Gillian: Microphone. Yes. And we'll do a whole episode on microphones about the different types and and what kind you might need. I personally always say large diaphragm condensers for voice actors. There are amazing -- you know, everyone knows the TLM 103 that's upwards of $1000. There's also amazing mics that if you're a beginner, and you're not ready to invest that much money, that will not sound exactly the same but will be a large diaphragm condenser mic and will do the job, will make you sound great. Anne: Absolutely. I used an NT1, a Rode NT1 for at least six years of my career full-time before I bought a 416. Actually I bought the TLM 103 and then I bought a 416 as well. So now I have both of those in my studio. But guess what? Also sitting on my desk here, I have a USB AudioTechnica AT 2020, and that works for some of my other connections. Believe it or not, that works for my Clubhouse connections because my Club Deck software doesn't like my audio interface so I have to use a USB mic and it makes me sound a whole lot better. And so those USB mics, they come in handy for lots of applications. Maybe not for your professional recording but for other applications that help enhance the sound of your voice. Gillian: Yeah. And here's the -- I'm not going to say that people shouldn't use USB mics. I mean the audio engineer and me, always, I love an interface and a mic just because. It's so funny, I wrote a whole blog post on this so if you're interested you can go read my blog about the core differences between like the functionality of what a USB mic or like a USB and interface does, and the pros and cons of both, 'cause there's pros and cons of both. When you have the interface, there's more things to know, there's more things that can go wrong. There's just — Anne: One more thing in the chain Gillian: — sensitivity. Yeah, exactly. But if you are interested and you want a USB mic, there's definitely options that will make you sound as good as you need to sound to start out. And I don't wanna get on here and say that you can't book a job or get started in voiceover using a USB mic, because there's so many uses for it. And once you upgrade, if you choose to upgrade to an interfacing mic, then you have that other option to use for things like, like -- Anne: Any mic. Gillian: Yeah. Anne: That's what I love about. I think really if you've got, I say for any voice talent in a pinch if you have to, you can use a USB, if you've got a good recording environment, in a pinch, but it's not recommended. I would say even if you're traveling, I've tried it all. I do have, I've got a great Tula mic, which is a USB mic and it's amazing. So if I have a good space, you know, my little Tula can hook up USB, and I can get a decent audition. I wouldn't necessarily use it for any type of work that you wanna send to your client, broadcast type work, but in a pinch, like absolutely. But for every day kind of voiceover I recommend condenser with an audio interface. And again, you don't have to have the $1000 mic. There's lots of great mics and there's so many discussion rooms and forums on what mic should I get? But I also have recommendations that I think work. It really depends on your voice and your comfort level, and work with a vendor that you can send it back if you don't love it. Gillian: So important that you can either -- I mean I know in big cities -- I'm not entirely sure 'cause I haven't done this in a while, but I know I'm in Guitar Center, I went there all the time growing up to play the instruments, and I know that they have a mic room where you can try stuff. I know that -- I'm pretty sure it'd B and H in New York City, you can try mics there, but I love Sweetwater. You can chat with agents there, you can talk to them. I'm pretty sure they have a great return policy because if you get the mic and you're investing all this money and you don't love it for your voice, even though everyone on the forums is saying it's top VO mic, don't keep it. Find something that makes you sound great because no one in the end is gonna know what mic you're using. They're just gonna know how you sound. Anne: Well, exactly. And I also think though it's worth mentioning that if you get a mic and you want an assessment of what you sound like, Gillian, my goodness, like what you do all the time, the sound assessments, right? Gillian: Yes. Anne: Gillian can absolutely give you an assessment of how your voice sounds with that particular mic in your environment. I think there's a lot of things at play here. It's your environment and also the mic, and there will be a difference. So for me, I can say, you know what, I like the way this mic makes me sound, but I haven't recorded a file with it and sent it to somebody. Because again, sometimes if you're just starting, it's very difficult. You don't necessarily have an ear yet. Sending it to someone like Gillian is very important, who is, you know, this is what Gillian does; she's an audio engineer. She listens to sounds all the time and every day so she can make an accurate assessment and also tell you if this suits your voice or this doesn't suit your voice. And I really believe that you also have to be happy with it. And don't forget, there's some people who mistakenly think that, well, I can use this mic and then I can process my voice to make it sound even better. And in reality as a voice actor, that's not what we wanna do. I mean, we simply wanna be able to give the cleanest recording that we can, and maybe our mic should, like what sorts of things should mics do for our voice? You know what I mean? They shouldn't change our voice, but they should enhance our voice. Gillian: Yeah, they should -- I think I said this in the first episode we did together, but microphones are microscopes picking up your voice. And so every mic has a different capsule in it. It has a different way of processing, whether you're using dynamic mic or ribbon mic, all the different types of mics, they all react differently to sound. And so some people love singing on ribbon mics because it's quieter, it's more sensitive. I have a super cardioid condenser microphone that I, I love using on my voice and I tried the U87, all these other things. So it's really about, and this is a difficult answer because it's like you need to find what works for you because the mic that makes Anne sound great might not make me sound great. And all the processing in the world — obviously you can EQ it and change it a little bit, but really it's like finding a pair of jeans. Like you gotta find one that fits you and makes you look and feel your best. Maybe not look but jean analogy sound like you. Anne: Yeah. Gillian: You know? Anne: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I don't think that there's any mic that will make you sound better than you. I mean your whole goal is really to make you sound the best that you can sound. And there's lots of mics -- and again, you could have a really like inexpensive mic in a great environment and sound amazing. You can also have a very expensive mic in a poor environment and sound horrible. I remember back in the day before I really had secured my environment sounding as best as it could, I purchased a shotgun mic, and it wasn't a 416, but I purchased one of the knockoffs and I actually hated it. I hated the way it made my voice sound. But I found that once I got the 416 and I had my environment, I love the way it sounds now. And it's really interesting because before I was like, well I held off getting a -- it's why I got the TLM 103. And for me now I realize for my voice, the TLM 103 is a little bit of a brighter sound. And the 416 will pick up a little more of the bass sound, and that's typically true for most voices. But again, until you try it, you're not gonna really know, and it really has to be up to you. And again I think sending sound audio files to engineers who have the ear, who this is what they do, like Gillian, is really worth an investment to get the overall assessment on yes, this mic is good for you. Or also it will help you to determine if maybe (laughs) like how many times, I think we talked about this, Gillian, somebody might have had the installation of their mic backwards, and they were speaking into the back of the mic versus the front of the mic. Gillian: Yeah. Anne: A lot of times people don't sidedress their mic, right? They're speaking right into it. So there's a lot of plosive. So there's a lot of things that, Gillian, you can help talent to assess with their sound. And most people think it might be a mic problem, it may not be a mic problem. Gillian: Yeah. Sometimes it's really simple stuff. Your room sounds really loud because your gain is up too high and you're not close enough to the mic. So it's picking up everything. Or it's on omni when it should be on cardioid, or you're facing the wrong way. There's so many things that someone listening could hear if you have a trained ear. Before we go, I know we have to go very soon, but don't forget your pop filter for your plosives. Anne: Ah yes. Gillian: So important. Anne: Oh my gosh. Gillian: I know you have like the pop filter shield sort of thing. That's what it looks like. Looks like you have, if you're using an interfacing mic, you need an XLR cable to connect the two. So important 'cause how are you gonna get from mic to interface from point to the other? So you get your mic, you get your interface, you don't have an XLR cable, you can't work. A mic stand. So important. What are you gonna do do without a mic stand? (laughs) You can't hold it. Anne: Well, exactly. You really can't. And I think that again, more equipment besides your mic stand, I actually prefer --and this is just me, I always tell my students for me and my studio, I like the boom arms that can be mounted on the wall. Because a mic stand to me, I can't tell you how many times I've heard talent like trip over the tripod-like feet. Gillian: Oh my gosh. Lemme show you my cute little stand. Anne: With their mic. Yeah. Gillian: I have this like, everyone watching, this like cute little baby stand that I just put on my desk. I think that those are really smart, the ones that clip right on. This little guy just sits on my desk and I can take 'em wherever. Anne: Okay. Well, that's if you're sitting at a desk. But if you're standing and you have one of those tripod-like standing mic stands… Gillian: They're hard to maneuver. Yeah. Anne: They're hard. They're hard to fit in a lot of studios. I used to trip over mine all the time, so I basically have boom arms that I mount on the wall in my studio. They save a lot of space at my feet when you don't have a ton of space. And also, like you said, you can't hold it. And then we do need to mention the most important thing from the mic, right, that goes into your audio interface, your audio interfaces, and then everybody has questions. What's the best audio interface? Now I have been through the gamut of audio interfaces, but the main job of your audio interface is to translate the analog signal that comes from your microphone into a digital signal before it goes into the computer. Correct, Gillian? Gillian: That's what it does. And typically it does both. It does the analog to digital conversion and then most audio interfaces have a headphone jack. So really we monitor off our computers, but you can monitor off of there where it goes digital right back to analog for you to listen to. Anne: Oh right. Absolutely. I wasn't even thinking of that. You're right, because that's where my headphones are plugged in all the time. I started, gosh, I started with the Personas. And I'm trying to remember, I think I probably at one time had a Scarlet Focusrite, which I don't love those interfaces -- and I know we had a conversation in one of our podcasts about interfaces. I then, when I bought my studio here, I have a Mackey because I was intending to be able to do talk back to people in this booth to rent this booth. And ended up having a technical issue with that, which I sent it, it got fixed, it was under warranty that is now my backup interface. And then I purchased an Apollo. And my Apollo, I have a mostly love relationship with my Apollo because of the plug-ins that work with it, which I absolutely love. But however, when we talked in our last episode about computer and keeping your computer up to date, well the (laughs) latest version of Mac OS is not up to date with the latest version of the Apollo. So you just have to make sure that you are aware of what's happening. The one that I recommend in terms of like a really great price, and I think works for the majority of people is the Steinberg UR22. And that is like about a hundred and — I wanna say $170. And I had one that I used for years, and it was just a workhorse and I love it. And that does all of the conversion, versus Gillian, if I'm correct, in saying with a USB mic, the conversion happens at the base of the microphone, right? So converting analog to digital. So there's a chip there that's doing that conversion. Gillian: The biggest difference between the two is that when you use an interface, the mic just gets to be a mic, but within the USB mic it's all happening. And usually you'll see a little headphone jack too. It does A to D and then D back to A conversion. Anne: Yeah. Gillian: You pay less and you get everything is gonna be slightly lower quality because you're paying for -- Anne: You gotta fit into a tiny, little -- Gillian: — a microphone — all of the conversion, all of those things in one small device versus, you know, separating them out. So that's kind of where don't use USB mic comes from just because you can get higher quality with the separate. Anne: You have so many more choices. Right? Because you can have a Focusrite or a Steinberg or an Apollo. Gillian: You get to mix and match. Anne: And you can have whatever microphone you want (laughs) connecting up to it. Gillian: The other thing that I love about that is that there's room to upgrade. So let's say you wanna splurge on a really expensive mic and you're, just, you know, oh, I wanna start with this interface. Or vice versa. You wanna splurge on an Apollo for $1000, but you wanna use a $200 microphone and then say I'm gonna wait a couple years and then upgrade. Personally I've used Apollos, I've used UAD. I kind of struggle with the software issue even though I've used the plugins. They're awesome. I like Focusrite stuff. I like the Scarlets. I think it's great. I think voice actors really only need one input, possibly two. If you wanna have two mics set up just to switch between, you know, a shotgun and a large diaphragm condenser, if you want 'em at the same time. I like Apogee as well. The Apogee Solo and the Duet, those are great too. Those work really well. So those are my faves. Anne: I'll just disagree with you on the Scarlet only because I've just had a lot of voice talent that have had bad luck, and I think mostly it's -- and I myself have thrown away two of them. And I think mostly a few years back, I think they used a bad chip set. I'm not sure what it was. Or they created these bundles where you got headphones, microphone, and interface all in the same package. And I think they used lower quality parts. And what would happen is voice actors would find, all of a sudden they'd get some sort of a noise or hissing, and nobody knew what it was, and it ended up being the interface. So for me that just kind of, I tossed that one to the side and said, I'm not gonna recommend that one anymore. But Scarlet, typically Focusrite had an impeccable reputation there for a while until I ran into bad luck with it past few years. I think if you buy a bundled package, (laughs) meaning from a manufacturer or something, especially at Costco, as much as I love Costco, right, there are packages made, packages that are made for Costco. Sometimes they use cheaper parts in those, and sometimes you'll find that the quality won't last as long. Sometimes though you'll buy stuff at Costco, not necessary technical equipment, but you'll find things at Costco that's better (laughs) than you would find at other stores. But that's just my personal experience. Gillian: I see. I've never had any bad experiences with Focusrite. I've used the larger hardware as well, the professional studio models of stuff. And those sound amazing. I think I've had a lot of friends and myself who've used the Scarlet interfaces and haven't had issues. So, that's my experience. And it's so funny, I've been wondering why people don't recommend bundles because I wouldn't buy audio gear from Costco (laughs). But there's a few places, like Sweetwater is my favorite place to buy gear. Anne: Yeah, but they'll bundle individual pieces together. Now, I'm talking about manufacturers that create whole bundled sets of things together. Gillian: Well, Sweetwater is awesome. And B and H, they also have some great bundles. And with Sweetwater specifically, if there's a bundle you like, but there's a piece of gear you don't like, you can reach out to them personally and swap it around and get a discount from sort of buying in bulk. And they have some pre-made stuff so that if someone was trying to set up their home studio, didn't know where to start, it gives you a little place to get started. Anne: And one thing I will say before we go, one thing that I love about Sweetwater is you get tech support. Oh my God, that is like unheard of these days. Like if you don't know, if you're having a problem installing the interface, you can call them up and get help. And that to me is invaluable. Gillian: They're amazing, Anne: They're wonderful to work with. So. Gillian: Yeah. Very knowledgeable. I love Sweetwater. It's my favorite place to put my money. I have a few friends that work there as well, and all of their employees are highly trained and they know -- Anne: Very educated -- Gillian: — about the gear. It's like a prerequisite to work there. Anne: Wow. We could go on forever, but, uh… Gillian: We could. Anne: Good stuff, Gillian, thank you so much. Gillian: Thank you. And for anybody who is interested to get your audio assessed by me, I know we did a few episodes about it, but if you missed them, you can just head to my website, GillwiththeG.com. It'll, I'll be linked down here and I have some audio assessments. I have a little free course on, on setting up your home studio and a few blog posts or a bunch of blog posts just talking about different audio things if you're interested in learning more. Anne: Awesome guys. Gillian: So hungry for knowledge, (laughs). Anne: And Gillian is a BOSS. Otherwise, she wouldn't be on the BOSS — she wouldn't be, she wouldn't be on the BOSS podcast. Anyways guys, here's a chance to use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Visit 100Voiceswhocare.org to commit. You guys -- oh, and a big shout-out, before I forget, to ipDTL, who is our sponsor. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Join Anne & Lau as they provide expert insights on overcoming self-sabotage and building powerful connections in the voice over industry. Learn to bring your authentic self to every performance, acknowledge negative self-talk, and rise above self-doubt. Discover strategies to take control of your negative self-talk and move past excuses to help you excel in your voice over career. Anne & Lau will also guide you on how trying new things and getting used to small failures can help you break out of a perfectionist rut and take your voice over business to the next level. Transcript It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hello, BOSSes. Welcome to the VO BOSS podcast and the BOSS superpower series with my ever so special guest,(laughs), Lau Lapides. Lau: Thank you, Anne. Hello. How are you? Anne: How are you? Oh, awesome. Look at us. How are you? Lau: Jinx. Anne: What is that punch? What is that? Punch Bug. Punch Bug? Lau: (laughs). Wait, what is that show? Uh, Wonder Twin powers, activate. Anne: Activate. Lau: Form of -- Anne: Right? Business superpowers. Activate. Lau: Activate. Anne: Activate. Lau: (laughs) Ooh, I love that. (laughs) Anne: Speaking of superpowers, activating, sometimes I find that my students have a hard time activating their superpowers, and I'm a firm believer that everybody has superpowers in the booth. However, it takes a lot to get past things so that they can activate those superpowers. It's like they get in their own way. Right? Get out of your own way. Lau: Yes. Get out of your -- if there were a place, if there were a waiting room that we could leave ourselves in when we go into the booth, or a camera, or an interview, or wherever you're going to do your work, we could leave ourselves there and not worry about it until we come out and get ourselves again — that would be a good thing to do. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's so tough. I think I always go back to what we do is so personal, right? Our voice is such a personal extension of ourselves, and we're being asked to bring ourselves to a performance constantly. But yet, there are times when we cannot do that, right? In reality, we think we're trying to bring the performer, right, to the performance, but in reality, we want you to bring yourself to the performance. And I think that is what most people have the hardest time doing, getting out of their own way so that they can bring themselves to that audition, to the booth, to the read, whatever that is. And so how do we get out of our own way, Lau? I mean, I think it's a struggle that everyone that gets into voiceover encounters at one point or another. Lau: I mean, I think that this is a struggle that we encounter throughout our lifetime, whether we're a voiceover talent or not, but certainly actors of all kinds are always going through identity crisis, always going through, who am I now, and am I good enough? That old imposter syndrome? Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: And one thing that I always do, and I do this for myself, and I recommend this as a coach as well, is self-talk scripting. I think self-talk scripting is really important to do. And you guys, you can do this, and you can do this all day long, and you can even do it in your head. But I recommend you start out by doing it on paper and write down your negative script. That is the thing that you are saying to yourself in the moment that is really negative. And then I want you to convert that into something that's positive and probably closer to the truth. Anne: I like that. Lau: Yeah. It just gives you a step. Anne: And hang that in your studio. Hang it in your studio. Lau: Yes. Anne: So you see it. Yes. Absolutely. Lau: Yes. And so it can be revolutionary in the sense of saying, wow, if I'm moving towards some sort of enlightenment in my personhood and in my career, I have to be authentically who I am, which means I'm flawed. I'm not perfect by any means, and I'm not even close to it. I'm a real person who's interesting and diverse and complex and sophisticated. So when I have something that comes in my way to self-sabotage my success, I have to stop and recognize it. I have to take accountability for it, and then I have to change it. Anne: And I think number one, for people really just starting off -- I think people that have been doing this for a while, they understand the process. But the first thing that people will do is judge how they sound. And we've talked about this so many times, right? They're like, oh, I don't like the way that audition sounds. And I don't think it sounds like what they want it to sound like. And that right there is your self-sabotage. The fact that you're saying, okay, it needs to sound a certain way, and you're not in any way thinking, how can I bring myself to this read? Or how can I bring my person to this read to make it unique, to make it something that will really perk up the ears of the casting director and really tell the story. That's what gets in the way, I think, a lot of times. Lau: And even as part of that, like if you're having a piece of copy in front of you, a script in front of you, anything written in front of you, that gymnastics that a lot of times you may go through in saying, I don't know if I wanna do this. I'm not ready for this. I don't really know what this means. And I've never seen — all the stuff, all the excuses we start to come up with -- Anne: Oh, so many excuses. Lau: -- to procrastinate from getting to the job. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Right? I'd love to come up with that first before we even open our mouth. (laughs). Like, what do we say to stop us from getting to the point of doing the job? Anne: Well, I'm gonna say, stop like talking to yourself and beating yourself up about how you sound and spend that time instead getting out of your way. How can you get out of your way constructively? Well, there's a little thing called Google(laughs). Anne GanGoogle says, Google. Right? Especially if you've got a script and you've got some clues in that script that can help you find out more about what that script, that content is about. Because to bring yourself to that party, you've gotta involve yourself in the story of the script. And the more you know about the story of the script, the more you know about the brand that's involved in that script, the more you know about these little clues that are in the script, these little sayings or nuances, the more you can educate yourself on that, the easier it's gonna be for you to bring your point of view to it. Lau: Hmm. I love that. And add on to that, have your circle ready to go. Who's your circle? Your coaches, your family, your friends, whatever. Just have people there that you can call upon to remind you about your greatness and your fabulosity. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Now, make sure they're not gonna rip you down. Make sure they're not gonna rip you apart and make you self-doubt. Because if they do that, then it's counterproductive. You want people who are going to keep building you up, building you up, building you up, so that you have the confidence to face what you need to face. It doesn't mean they're lying to you. They may not even be in the industry. They may not even have the industry knowledge, but you wanna have that circle of people there for you to call upon to say, you know what? I don't feel great today, or I don't think I sound great. What do you think? And they say, I don't hear anything wrong with your voice. Your voice sounds great. So what's your deal? And it makes you just stop and get out of your head. I would say get out of your head and get into the world. Anne: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Definitely you need your network, your VO family. And honestly, as we were discussing before, in a weird sense, I'm gonna say you are more than VO. If you just take a look at the words voiceover, right, there's really not much substance to voiceover in words. It's like a voice, but in reality, you are so much more than just that voice. I mean, you really have to start establishing yourself or thinking of yourself as much more than just the voice. You are the actor, you are the entrepreneur, you are the business person. And with that, I think, comes a sense of something that you can bring to that read or that script that is more than just thinking, oh, it's just about the voice and then stressing yourself out over and over and over again and beating yourself up about how it's not -- what am I doing wrong? Or why is nobody listening to it? What is the feedback? And absolutely reach out to that network, network of coaches, network of accountability buddies that you have to get you out of that funk. Because sometimes it is a funk. Lau: It is. And much of the time, that's all it is. I would even say, do something. Okay? And what I mean by that is, be active and be in action. The moment you're inside your head oftentimes will be inactive, right? Now if you're thinking you're active, but I want you to be interactive. So meaning the moment you have that thought, you need to cut it off by physically doing something. Whether you move to another room, whether you call someone up, whether you go out and take a walk, whether -- whatever you do, you need to break that also with physical energy. It's really important. Because that heady stuff weighs us down and we actually get cut off from the rest of our body. Anne: Yeah. What a great piece of -- we can go home now, Lau. That was a wonderful piece of advice. (Lau laughs) Absolutely. Sometimes just getting up, taking a breath and deep breathing, getting out of the studio. I always like to pet my fur babies. Go see my hubby. Or just do something that gets you out of that, out of that funk, out of that mental -- and you're right, physical can really be a wonderful way to get yourself out of that funk. And when you get out of that funk, and you can actually start to get into the story, get into whatever it is, the dialogue, whatever it is that you are working on in your booth, magic will happen. Lau: I love it. Anne: I always say to people, when it's right, you feel it. You don't hear it, but you feel it. And that's where I think, every once in a while, when you get that script and you just feel it. And it's like, oh, damn. You don't know quite how it happened, but you felt that it was right. And I wanna say that's what we should always strive for, right? Just that feeling that, yeah, I hit that, that worked. And then even if you, let's say, don't get that audition or don't get that gig, be proud of the fact that you have evolved. That's such a beautiful, wonderful feeling, when you're like, oh yeah, that was good. That was really good. And you can feel proud of yourself for that. Lau: Yes. And do a little VO feng shui, meaning do two things. I want you to think up a new idea and learn a new technique that is the implementation of the idea. So it could be something very simple like, oh, today I'm going to, oh, I wanna reach out to this company or these people. I'm gonna reach out to these people in this way. And then I have a new technique for doing that, because I'm gonna do a drip campaign. So that to me is a little feng shui of the spirit of you and your business. You don't have to do exactly the same way every day and get into a rut. You can really say, this week I wanna try something new. And I sat with Anne, I sat with another coach or whatever, and I learned a new idea, a new technique, and now I'm gonna try it. Anne: Well, I love that you just brought it out of the booth and into your business, which is great. So getting out of your own way doesn't just mean performance-wise in your booth and acting wise; it also means in your business. So getting out of your own way in your business. And I cannot tell you, there's so many things, Lau, that a lot of people in their business don't like to do because, number one, maybe they're not familiar or they're not educated, they don't know how to do it, and so therefore they don't do anything. Or they will simply just say, oh, I can't, I just can't possibly do that. I don't either have the money or I don't have whatever the excuses are. And I've heard them all, right? And money is a big one, and I get it right, as BOSSes running a business. Lau: Yeah. Anne: I totally get the money thing. And we've had multiple episodes about money. But I will say is that you have to open your mind for abundance and open your mind for the fact that you need to invest that money and also save that money so you have money to reinvest in your business. And that can help you. Just that alone, money, get out of your own way. Right? Get out of your own way with money. Get out of your own way with marketing. Get out of your own way with all the things, maybe cold calling or whatever it is that can help to grow your business. Lau: I'm feeling an Eleanor Roosevelt quote coming on (Anne laughs), and I have to release it -- Anne: I love it. Lau: — so I don't explode. Anne: Release it, please. Lau: Here it is. Here it is. I just have to do it. Okay? It's like, do one thing every day that scares you. Anne: Oh God, yes. Oh, I love that quote. Lau: Okay. And I'm not saying, God forbid, don't jump off a building. I'm not saying that. I'm saying within the framework of who we are as talent and as business, do one thing that kicks you a little bit, to do something that's a little uncomfortable that may even really scare you and see what happens on the other end of it. Anne: I'll tell you, that's hard. That's not an easy thing to do. And especially if you've been doing this for a long time. And there's so many, and I'm sure, Lau, you get this a lot too. I hear from a lot of students how they're, they're stuck in a rut. Or I'll do consult calls. So people will say, I, gosh, I've been in voiceover for years and I'm in this rut. I need help. And this is great because you're reaching out. Right? But when you reach out for that help, you then cannot say to me, okay, I can't do this because of this, or I can't do this because of that. Or can you give me the quick 15-minute answer? No, that's the other thing. In a 15-minute, 20-minute consult call, I can't give you the answer to all of life's issues. Or how to run your VO business. However, I can say, here's what I suggest to help you to get out of your own way. Lau: And if anything, grab a buddy. Grab accountability buddy. Preferably someone in your business because they get what's going on. They feel it too. They're living it too. Anne: Oh yeah. Lau: And move through the tougher experiences together. Anne: So powerful. Lau: Like hold each other accountable. Anne: Yeah. Lau: You know, have that coffee together weekly or biweekly. and say, you are gonna do this and it's a lot of money. And it's kind of scary. Well, did you do it? So let's do it together. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Sometimes we need that collab. We need that ensemble thing to get us going. I know I'm a creative, I love ensemble. I need that team oftentimes. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: I don't think you have to apologize for that. We're not an isolated being; we don't have to just work alone. We have wonderful people. Like you're on another whole coast, 3000 miles away, and we hold each other accountable to showing up, to giving our all, to caring about our audience, to being awake, to throwing on our lipstick. I mean, that's all hard work. It doesn't look like it is, but it is, because so many would rather lay in bed. They'd rather watch TV. They'd rather go the easy route. Go the difficult route. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: You know, challenge yourself; there's a lot better stuff waiting on the other side of that. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. And I wanna come back to, again, what you said about writing things down. I'm a big believer -- I love that you said to write down the negative thoughts and then cross it out and write, like write the absolute opposite of that. Lau: Yes. Anne: Turn that around. And I love that because I'm the person that likes to write and cross things out as I accomplish them and get them done. So if you have those negative thoughts, write them down, cross it out, and turn that thought around. And also with anything that you've done in terms of not just negative thoughts, but in terms of accomplishments, I think writing down your accomplishments can really work wonders for helping you to gain confidence and to get out of your own way. 'Cause I think a lot of times when you get in your way, it stems from fear and it stems from a lack of confidence. And reading something that is solidly written down, an affirmation, or even like meditation every day, right, can really help to beat that negativity out of your brain. Lau: Hmm. Oh, these are great. And I do, one thing I love that I learned from a wonderful coach that I worked with, do a brain dump. Try to do it every day if you can. It's just a five-minute sitting at your table, your desk, in your car, and I want you to write, write, write, write for five minutes, time yourself, five minutes. Don't pick the pen off the paper. Write, write, write, don't edit, don't critique. Get everything in your head out on paper. And that's gonna feng shui your head, that's gonna empty your head and leave room for focus. Anne: I love that. Feng shui your head. Lau: Feng shui your head. Anne: That's a quote, Lau. Feng shui your head. Lau: Feng shui your head. Anne: And get out of your own way. (laughs). Lau: Because you don't ,believe it or not, you don't have to believe everything that comes into your head. You know? We get backed up. (laughs) Anne: And the biggest -- 'cause I took a feng shui course, by the way, back in the day and it was one of the best things I'd ever done, is that clutter? Right? If you have clutter in your house, you have clutter in your brain. And if you have clutter in your brain, I love that. Do a brain dump so that you can then start to think clearly. Lau: That's right. Anne: And then start to really focus on what you need to do to get out of your own way, to make that marketing effort, to create that website, to go ahead and get that additional coaching, to audition for that job that you're scared about and out of your comfort zone. Wow. All that good stuff. Lau: Yeah, 'cause we don't wanna hold so much in our head and be balancing all of that and then try to give output that is like high productivity. It's very hard for us to do that. We have to release certain things and get them out there that are not priority for us or that are sabotaging us. We gotta get it out. Sometimes you even just like clean your desk or rearrange something. You know? Anne: Absolutely. Or when you come into your studio, clean your studio, or do the brain dump before you do your auditions for the day. I love that. Lau: It's awesome, it's awesome. Anne: A lot of times when we're in the middle of an audition, if we're stressed out about other things that are happening, that's coming out in our voice, right? And so we really just need to (breathes), you know, do a brain dump, do a few breathing exercises to relax, and really focus on the story at hand, which is not gonna be like, I don't know, what you need to finish up or when you have to start dinner or what you have to do at home, or what's stressing you out. Lau: Yeah. And how the things in front of you, whether they're affirmations or mantras, or you just write a little sticky note to yourself to remind yourself -- like one of my famous sticky notes that I love is that I'll just look just for a second and it'll say, you're enough. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Stop trying to be perfect. Stop trying to be too much. Stop trying to be everything to everyone. You're enough, you're enough. And it's just a quick reminder. Like we need those quick reminders when we're busy and all of that, to not overload ourselves with stressors that are not necessary. They're really concocted stressors that ultimately tear us down and get in the way of our productivity. It stops us. Anne: And I think also when we meet people, new people, right, I feel as though, I mean, hopefully anyways, I'm a fairly good judge of people, I think. I use a lot of gut instinct and intuition, and I feel as though that personality that I meet when we meet for the first time, if I initially connect to that, that is what I think you need to get to that level in your booth or in your business. Right? That this is who you are, this is your personality. This is, and I always like to say that if your personality comes from a place of service from the heart, I really feel as though that can benefit your performance, that can benefit your business. If you are coming from a place that doesn't have a bunch of stressors from here and there. And it's really just coming from a place of, let me service this copy. Let me be the best business, let me be the best voice that I can be, and let me network with my client to see how can I help? Instead of coming from a place of what is my talent? I'm not talented enough, or my voice isn't good enough, it needs to come, like, how can I best service my client? How can I best serve my business by bringing myself and my heart of service to it? Lau: Hmm. Oh gosh. I just love that. That gave me tingles. I love that. That's great. I would even push that even farther. And I would say, find a moment that you can sacrifice or give of yourself in a selfless way, because we wanna be selfish. We wanna be self-centered. We wanna get, get, get. Find a moment where you can authentically give. And that is a moment that when you start doing that, it's kind of painful. But then you get used to it and you say, wow, I got so much in return. So like for instance, when I was a working talent all the time, before I became an agent and a coach, I was working talent, I would talk to people and create all sorts of relationships with casting, and they'd say, you're just not right for this, Lau. I mean, you're just… I'd say, well, right, okay. Anne: Yeah. And then worry about it ever again. Lau: Guess what I'd come back with? I had so much chutzpah now that I think about it. (Anne laughs) I'd come back and I'd say, you know what? That's okay. I'm gonna get you the right person. Who do you need? And they couldn't believe I said that to them. They'd be like, well we're, we're looking for this. We'll send you the breakdowns, and maybe you can find some -- I, I always, always would put in referrals. Anne: And then when they need you, you're the first person at the top of their mind. Lau: And the funniest part about for me was it became much more satisfaction than getting it for myself. So (laughs) Anne: Isn't that so telling now that you're an agent? Lau: It's telling. Anne: And that's what you do. Right? Lau: Yeah. It literally built a whole career for me because I started that habit. Anne: That is so interesting because before my career in voiceover, I used to place students in internships and teach, of course. So everything for me is very telling. I coach now. And I also, I love to place my students on rosters. I love to recommend jobs to them. I love to do referrals, I love to cast. And so I feel like there's that match, right? Lau: Yes. Anne: When we know our students or we know our clients and we can put those two together. Lau: That's right. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And sometimes, and this is where you and I have spoken about, be interactive, don't be passive about it. Sometimes they're not coming to you. Like sometimes you're just observing that there are people around you that they need to know they need to meet. You know, something about your friends or your talent. Because remember in business, anytime you make a referral or recommendation, and it works out, it makes you look great. Anne: Oh, absolutely. Lau: Like you become -- Anne: Oh my gosh, yes. Lau: — someone that they can't live without. Right? Anne: Absolutely. So they trust you. Lau: They trust you. Anne: People buy from people they know, like, and trust. Lau: Yes. So don't be afraid and think, oh, but I'm -- Anne: I'm giving a job away. Lau: — myself. Anne: I'm giving a job away. Lau: No, no, no. Because you know what? If they really wanna work with you, they'll work with you. Anne: Yeah. Lau: If it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be. But that doesn't mean you're out of the picture. There are many times, especially in live circumstances, where you can do introductions, you can do referrals. Anne: Sure. Lau: You can do this and that and just plant the seed. And they may not go for it, but a lot of times they do. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And they go, oh my gosh, Lau, you introduced me to this person. This person's amazing. We signed a contract the other day. Do you take a percentage of that? I don't. Anne: But Lau, you don't. But then sometimes you can. Lau: So that's a whole job unto itself. (laughs) Anne: Well, there you go. So look, I'm not gonna say I try to get a dollar for everything, but honestly like that when, when we're talking about the referral and the agenting and then getting other people work, when it turns out to be something profitable, it can also mean profit for you and your business. Now, I'm not saying everything should turn into that, but I mean I've had instances where I've referred clients or I've referred — and I've been offered and I'm like, no, no, no. But it has been insisted by the client that I get some sort of a fee for that. And so, and I think I am worthy. Right? That was a good referral. And both client and talent are now making money off of that or they're being fairly compensated. So I don't entirely dismiss the idea saying, oh no, no, no, no. If somebody's gonna say here, no, I am going to pay, I'm a business short. That's awesome. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: And how else can I help you (laughs)? Lau: Well listen, if you get really good at that and you start doing that a lot, there's all different ways to frame that, whether you do management, whether you do fee for service, whether you do — there's all sorts a way to frame that matchmaking thing that some of us are really good at.,my point is, is like, like just give, just give. Don't worry about giving. You'll get enough back in return. Anne: Well Karma. Lau: Karma. Anne: It's karma. I mean, VO BOSS was started from giving. Literally, if you remember, I tell my story over and over again. I was trying to give up my VO Peeps brand and I was gonna roll it into VO BOSS, 'cause I wanted to continue educating. I wanted this to be a resource, an educational resource for the community. And it turned out to be so much in addition to that, really. Lau: Yeah. Anne: Look, I got to meet you. And I mean there's just so many wonderful things that have come from the place of giving, and I really feel that every business needs to have that aspect to — which is a very popular trend these days with businesses too. Lau: You just brought up a mouthful. The BOSSes would love to know about, without naming any names or titles of anything, you and I met doing an online panel together. Anne: Oh, yes, we did. Lau: But here's the thing I want the BOSSes to know. I can't speak for you, Anne, but I didn't make a penny on that. Anne: No, I didn't. Yeah. Lau: And that was A-Okay by me because that was education to that company and that community. And I love that. I love that. But look what came out of this. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Lau: Look at this relationship that was built out of that. Anne: Absolutely. Lau: And this is the example of what we're saying, like karma. Anne: A place of service, a place from heart. Lau: Look at this. If we hadn't done that, if we said, look, I'm at a place in our careers, we do make money for everything we do, whatever, we wouldn't have met, we may not met. Anne: That's true. Very true. Lau: Isn't that amazing when you think about that. Anne: There you go. And what a great story. What a great story to end on. Lau: Very heartwarming. Anne: Good stuff. BOSSes, get outta your own way. You can do it. Get rid of the clutter that stops you from being the very best you that we know you are. And we know you are the BOSSes. So, all right. Lau, thank you. It's been great. Lau: Do your thing, thing. Anne: Yes. It's been great. And so speaking of giving back, right? As individuals, it can be difficult to make a huge impact. But as a group, we can contribute to the growth of our communities and give back in ways that we never thought before possible. Visit 100voiceswhocare.org to learn how. And a big shout-out to my favorite sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network and connect like Lau and myself like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. Guys, have a great week. We'll see you next week. Bye! Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.