Join Anne & Lau as they embark on a fascinating exploration of the online casting world and analyze the controversial role of Fiverr in the voiceover industry. They shed light on the complex ethical issues prevalent in the freelance industry, emphasizing the significance of transparency, fair compensation, and adherence to industry standards. Listen in as The Bosses discuss online casting’s ability to provide global exposure, momentum, and representation for emerging voice talents. Learn valuable insights into navigating the evolving world of online casting while maintaining ethical practices and fostering a thriving voiceover community.
Transcript Anne: Hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to the VO Boss Podcast and the Boss Superpower Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I have my amazing, lovely, lovely boss co-host Lau Lapides with me. Yay! Lau: Hey everyone! Hi Anne! Back, back, back. We're back. Anne: Lau, I've got a dirty word that I heard. Lau: And I've got a jar that you're going to put a quarter into. Anne: Every time you say that word, that F-word, I mean, and I'm not -- Lau: No… Anne: — talking the F-word that most people think. Or maybe if you're in the voiceover industry, you know what that F-word is? Lau: What? Anne: It's not failure either, because that's also another F-word. But the word Fiverr. Lau: Oh! Quarter in the jar. Anne: Quarter in the jar every time you say the word Fiverr. So I think we're going to be rich, maybe, Lau Lau: Quarter in the jar. Anne: After this podcast. So yeah, it's a hot topic. It's always been a hot topic. And I think that it's a considerably bigger topic because I've been in the industry forever. So before there was Fiverr, there was other places that -- Lau: Always. Anne: — always places that like Fiverr. And I think now we just really hear so much more about it because we're all online and everybody can talk about it in groups easily. And so we should talk. Lau, what are your thoughts about -- and before you just come right out and say what your thoughts are about Fiverr, I mean let's talk about business. I think that when you talk about businesses, you're always going to have businesses that are luxury brands, right? Lau: Hmm, yes. Anne: You know, that sell luxury brands or luxury, you know, the idea of luxury. And then you have the other that are economical. Lau: Yes. Anne: And yeah, cost savings and efficient. And so I'm going to start by saying I think that that Fiverr fits in that model that probably isn't elegant brands, but it is the more cost efficient. And here's where you can get something quick, easy, cheap, and fast. Lau: Yes. Yeah, I'm going to second that and agree with that. But it's interesting because the way I frame Fiverr and sites that are similar to that, the way I frame that in my business brain is under the umbrella or framing in a context of how do I start my business or how do I gain more momentum in my business and how do I get known in my business? This is one way that is a way that you can build your client list. And the interesting part about a Fiverr is if you choose to go that direction, you have to know that people are going offline and it’s wild west. So they're building their client list, they’re charging all their rates that they’re deciding on, they’re communicating directly with their clients after awhile. So they’re utilizing it as sort of a jumping platform to get out there, get known, and have Fiverr do a lot of the marketing for them so they can get found, and once they’re found, then they start to make the rules themselves. They start to build their own clients themselves. So there's something to be said for having a platform. And now this is very common. Marketplaces all over the place are housing voice-over talent and voice-over services so that they are in essence marketing you. You're not doing the marketing, so that potential clients and prospects can find you. Anne: So, we should clarify. I mean, there are some platforms -- I'm not going to talk too much about the other ones, but there are some online casting platforms that you cannot take the client off of. I love what you said about how it's a jumping point. I mean, look, online casting sites, you know, SEO works on frequency of words, right? And so search engines are built to be good search engines. And so if you're looking for a voice talent or a voice actor, and you do a search at the Google prompt, then essentially they want to be a good search engine and serve back the right material. So when you've got online casting sites and you've got people that have thousands on thousands of profiles that say, I'm a voice actor — guess who has the best SEO, right? Those online casting sites. And honestly, it's almost impossible for you as a single individual business to go up against that SEO because you've got so many matches, right? And so the search engine says, well, the first, if you're searching for voice artists, well, the first place that comes up that term or that word, that search term, would be a casting site that has thousands upon thousands of profiles that say, I'm a voice artist. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And so I love the fact that you use it to get your jumping off point, your marketing, use it for its SEO. And it's well known that Fiverr has great SEO, and as well as the other online casting sites, Voice123, Voices.com, they all have great SEO. And so to get yourself found of hundreds of thousands of people, that is absolutely an approach to doing that. And I'll tell you what, starting off understanding the type of business that Fiverr is, or some of these online casting sites, they're in business to make money. And also the people that are on these platforms are making money. Now, are they making great money? Are they making, you know, is it, You know what I mean? Like, if you're on Fiverr and you're making money for your family, I'm not even talking voiceover, but you're doing something — and again, this is a global site where there's lots of representation. And we live in the United States, which is very privileged, I'm just going to say, right? There might be people on there that are from other countries where $5 to them is a lot of money, right? And it’s a way that they can feed their families. And so I can't, I can't, I can never shun the business. I mean, I can, I can say to them, well, I don't like their advertising. I don't like their ethics. I don't like their lack of transparency for any business, right? And I can choose whether or not I want to associate myself with that business. And I do that every single day. Right? Lau: Right. Anne: We do that every single day. So as a voice talent, is it horrible for you to be on Fiverr? And again, there's such. back and forth. And for me, Lau, I've always maintained that, mind your own business. Everybody starts in a different place. Gosh, when I started before there was Fiverr, there was Freelancer. And I'm going to say that -- Lau: I remember that. Anne: And on Freelancer, it was honestly everybody was underbidding. Everybody was underbidding each other to get the job. What's the difference? Whether they call it Fiverr or Freelancer, start with an F. F word. That's what happened but yet when I was beginning, there wasn't a lot of places there wasn't a lot of opportunities. Look if we're gonna be viable businesses we need to have opportunities right for work and we need to know where those opportunities are and so if they show up in a place like Fiverr, that's an opportunity. Now you make the choice whether or not you go and and and act upon that opportunity. Lau: And the coach in me says, listen, you know, as a business person, we're in business. We always talk about this like, mind your own business is right. Anne: Yes, mind your own business. Lau: Like, you want to set industry standards. Yes, you want to have fair working conditions and and good scale pay. That being said, we're still entrepreneurs slash solopreneurs. And we do have to make decisions, sometimes tough decisions, sometimes controversial decisions about how we put plates on the table, how we take care of our families or our rent, how we deal with everyday waking up and going after our business practices. Like we have to make individual decisions, so as you listen to the cacophony of voices that are out there that are making strong suggestions or they’re giving their subjective advice, we have to do that. But we also have to come home and say, let me sift through all of that and let me make my own decisions about what works for my own career. I think that’s important. And I do want to say, one of the perceived negative sides of a Fiverr is the fact that you’re not leading people in. They’re coming in through their marketing and they’re finding you. But they’re also finding a lot of competitors to you on the same site. Anne: Sure. Lau: So you’re in a pool on the same site with direct competitors. So you just have to know, what’s my A-game? What makes me unique and artful? What separates my branding from their branding? What makes me get found? Because they’re not coming in just finding you. They’re finding potentially hundreds of others that are in your category or in your compartment. And you have to work a little harder to separate yourself from the in-house competition that they’re finding. Anne: And you know what's so interesting, too, is, I'm not the person to judge if you're on Fiverr or not. I always say, I'm not here to judge you if you're on Fiverr or you're not on Fiverr. What I am concerned about is that you price yourself what you know your worth and that you price yourself knowing your worth. And understanding that just because you're new or you're less experienced does not mean that you have to price yourself less. Lau: Mm. Anne: And so I always try to instill that you need to price yourself what you're worth. Lau: Well, It's an interesting topic -- Anne: It is, it is. Lau: — because it's like any other, I call it a marketplace because -- Anne: Yeah, it is. Lau: — you may not find other competing businesses to Fiverr itself, but the businesses under the umbrella of Fiverr, many of them are competitive. So it's like you're on a marketplace, you're in a marketplace. It's like you're in a supermarket, right? Who else is on the shelf right next to you? Anne: And you can price yourself low, whether you're on Fiverr or not. That's the thing. And I think that if you do that, then you are undervaluing yourself. And it can be, if you become good at it and you do a ton of volume work at a low price, then it will start to probably impact the industry. If you become known enough, where you do enough jobs, then it can start to impact the industry. If you are not doing it, somebody will. It always happens. And again, it's not under our control necessarily. I think there will always be bottom feeders, and always in any, any industry. And so I think for you, you have to worry again, mind your own business, and worry about what you're charging and making sure that you're charging enough so that you are getting paid fairly. And it's not like, this is an online business, right, like it's a brick and mortar where we're doing unethical things, hiring labor that's not minimum. Now there is the argument that people get paid less than minimum wage. But minimum wage where? Lau: Yeah. Anne: Minimum wage in what country? Minimum wage. And I get that. I mean if you want to make a blanket statement in saying people get paid less than minimum wage. Well, first of all I've been offered less than minimum wage to do voiceover and I always choose to say no to that. Because for all the times that I’ve, and back in the day when I might have said, oh, I'll think about it. I mean, it's always better for me, and I think for most people, to just say no for less than minimum wage, because look, I didn't give up my job, you know, and to go into business for myself to get less than minimum wage. Lau: Right. Anne: And that time is better spent finding somebody who understands my value and values me at my fair rate. Lau: You brought up a really, really important point, though. It's like we're always thinking of Fiverr from our point of view, which -- Anne: Mm-hmm. Lau: — many of us are in the US or in North -- Anne: Yeah. Lau: — America or UK, but people are on there from all over the world. And I know when I've hired a service off of Fiverr, you know, I've met amazing people from Sri Lanka and Philippines and on and on it goes, from Russia, I mean, there are artists from everywhere, creators from everywhere. So in one sense, if you come out of your perspective into a more global perspective, you're giving a lot of artists potential work, where they live and what their experiences are, they would never be able to get on their own. They would never have the money to market their business. They would never physically be able to go to a brick and mortar where they live. So it’s a marketplace that is very important to a lot of people globally speaking that just would not have the placement opportunities that we have here in the states. It’s an interesting way of looking at it. And then of course, when I’ve hired someone, we may go offline, and then their rates completely change. Then we're in a total other stratosphere. We're no longer in the Fiverr territory. We're in this person's business territory. And then I will pay them what they think they’re worth, and that changes, completely changes, and sometimes it actually gets very pricey. It gets very expensive and rightly so, because their services are worth a lot, oftentimes. Anne: Yeah. Lau: So thinking of it as, I don’t know how you would say it, but sort of a layered approach. It’s not just, oh, they don't charge a lot of money, you're not paying people what they're worth. That's the meeting time, that's the launching place. And then where it goes from there is into a very different kind of bargaining and negotiation. You have to expect that too. No one I have met and worked with on Fiverr stays at that beginning rate. No one. Anne: And again, I think that I think that you can off the bat — and I don't know I am not I'm not on Fiverr, and I have I've spent very little time on Fiverr. So it's interesting that we've chosen this. This is our topic today because -- Lau: Yeah. Anne: — I don't have a lot of experience in fiber and I try not to to make statements, you know what I mean, about Fiverr not understanding the impact or having direct experience. I signed up so that I could look for, you know, different types of employees. I've never hired anybody off of Fiverr. However, I've had enough experiences. I understand the concept of Fiverr. I understand, you know, I talked to enough people that are on it, getting their experiences on it. And again I feel it really is one of those things where it is up to to the individual, whether they choose to be on Fiverr, to associate with that. For me, it was just one of those things where I didn't yet need another platform. I just didn't have time to really take part in it or -- Lau: Yeah. Anne: — do what I needed to do. I don't know, honestly, Lau, if I have to start with a certain amount of money or if I have to work up to it and I didn't have time for that because thankfully my business is doing well. And so I don’t have to rely on a platform like Fiverr, but boy, in the beginning, I did. I relied on those platforms, online casting platforms, not Fiverr, but to pick up clients and to get my name out there and to get experience so that I could ultimately be in a successful business where ultimately I didn't need it. Lau: Right. And you're also having, well, you're having tremendous diversity on a platform like that, which I love because I have a vested interest in working with as much diversity as possible -- Anne: Mmm. Lau: — giving people opportunities that they may not have. Anne: Sure. Lau: And also young people, like anyone under the age of 30, I consider young. Anyone under the age of 30, they don’t oftentimes know where to go. They don’t have the business practices. They don’t have advisors, even if they are lucky enough to go to college and get an education. Even in university environments oftentimes, you’re not getting business practices or where to go or any real placement. So you have to think back, for those of you listening in, that if you are 40 and up, where were you at 18? Where were you at 22? What were you thinking at 28? And I know a lot of us were thinking, help, I don't know even what questions to ask. Like, I do a graphic design business, I do a PR business, I create, you know, music for people. I don't know how to get clients. I’m a creative. I don’t have that brain. Anne: Sure. Lau: So a marketplace like Fiverr was also filling a need of so many people that literally had no idea how to build a business. No idea at all in saying, hey, come in, we’ll give you your start. Hopefully you’ll stay with us, but if you don’t, we’ll give you your start, and you’ll be able to make those connections all over the world that you want to make. And now that we’re all online, you don’t even need a brick and mortar in a lot of these professions. So you're all online. So you need the marketplace in order to do that. Anne: Well, and of course, there was a hole in the marketplace. And honestly, it kind of makes me think about, well, what's going on with AI in the creative world? Not just synthetic voices, but we're talking art and writing and copywriting and the creative where AI tools have come out that can write things for you, that can generate art for you. I do believe that ultimately if you can use these as tools, and that includes online platforms, use them as tools to help grow your business, to grow -- Lau: That's right. Anne: — what it is. And of course, now I'm not saying that people that steal art or AI that is stealing art is right. I believe this is evolving to a point where we will ultimately come up with standards, guidelines, and laws that will protect our rights -- Lau: Yes. Anne: — protect our art, protect our writing. And it needs to happen. There needs to be this sense of injustice about it all, or this anger, or this stand up and kind of fight for what you believe in. And I believe in the end it will work out. I'm not going to stand here and stomp my feet if you're on Fiverr and say, you're ruining the industry for me. Because, honestly, I found my own industry. I’ve found my own clients and that's okay, that it works for my business. And again I like to always look at the positive thing ,the positive spin of everything. I think that Fiverr filled the need. If Fiverr didn't do it, it would be some other company that would have filled the need -- Lau: No question. Anne: — for that. Lau: Yeah, no question. Anne: It's just the way business works here. And there needed to be an option for people that were looking for an effective voice. And I'm just going to say, those people, if they didn't go to Fiverr, they were probably going to one of the other platforms, like Upwork or whatever the other ones would be, so that they could get reasonably priced voiceover. Now, a lot of times, yes, do they value voiceover? It's a perception, right? People value things in different ways. I think it's just a fact of life, right? They think, yes, this voice contributes to our brand. And as artists, we want to say, yes, our voice has an impact on your brand, and it can help sell for your brand, and it can help elevate your brand. But there are some people who don't see that value, right? And I'm not going to bother fighting those people, nor am I going to bother trying to get work from those people. Because they'll be the first ones to turn around and complain that they paid too much, and then give me tons of revision. And I've done that enough times in my business to know, right? I've accepted a low-ball offer, not too many times, but enough to know that they're usually the most trouble. So the people that are coming to Fiverr, right? Their expectations, right? And their appreciation of the value may not be where we want it to be. And that’s just something to understand, right? I mean, if we are businesses and we can educate our clients, our potential clients on our value and what we can do for them, then I don’t think we have problems. Lau: I agree, Anne, totally wholeheartedly. And I think that we as individuals and as business owners and as citizens of the world create our own morality. We really do. Like we create our own sphere of morality. Anne: Oh, I like that. Lau: And you really have to go with what your heart and soul is telling you. And you really have to do it with with an honest heart and a full heart. You're not going with mal-intention. You're not going to hurt someone. You're not going to slight anyone. Like you have to believe that in our industry the space is big enough that you're gaining clients. A lot of them have no level of knowledge of what a rate sheet is or what should be charged or what could be charged. So you're in essence, every time you meet a potential client, you're schooling them, you're teaching them, you're building your own morality base to say, okay, we're meeting at this level. Listen, what's the difference between that and giving away a free hour of coaching? Or giving away, I'm gonna do like 50% off of class. I want to introduce my value to you. I want to build trust with you. I want you to have a little taste test of what we do. And if you love it and if you want to buy into that and invest into that, then the investment is going to change. We all know that. It's the same with Fiverr. I want to give you a little taste test. Let me just give it to you for a very low rate. But if you really want to invest in this, then we're going to go to the rates that are established by my business, by me. Because you're already buying into the trust factor of working with me and what I'm offering you is filling the need. So it’s very similar to that if you look at it in that way. There's tons and tons of free offers out there, tons and tons of discounts out there. It's ultimately to get buy-in to invest in what the full rate would be for that product or service. Anne: That's an interesting way of looking at it. Yeah, you're going to buy in or you're going to get a sample. And you know, it's interesting because for me, I want to project my business as not being cheap, because there's a lot to be said, when we've talked about this before, with branding. I mean, there are certain things when I pay a low amount of money, I think, oh, I wonder what's wrong with that? Or I don’t now, is that — and so for me, I've always elevated my business and my voice to be, you know, here's my rate and it's okay if you can't meet that. Thank you. That's okay. You know, I hope to work with you in the future, but that's okay. I will spend time with people who will value my rate. I have no bitterness. I have no, there's no malice. There's, you know, nothing like that. I don't know exactly the rules of Fiverr right now, forgive me for that. But I don’t know if you have to start at a very low rate or if you have to like work your way up to a certain rate. I'm not sure what it is. Lau: I don’t think so, Anne. Anne: Yeah, I think you can start at a reasonable rate. Lau: When you go on the platform, you're going to see, like, let's say you're looking up a service of an attorney, or let's say you're looking up someone, a musician, you want them to create music for you. You may see a layered approach of, I provide this for this amount. But then if you want this, we're going to layer that on at this amount. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Then we're going to provide it at this amount. So it isn't this flat, like, $5 or $10 thing. Anne: Yeah, it's not $5. Lau: It's very much a layered approach to what they do, and some of them start very high. They'll say this is what I'm worth, this is what it is. I'm on the platform that's known as a discount platform, but I'm not offering your discount. And that's what it is. So it's all over the place, it's all over the place. Anne: And again, it's all about your business. And it's all about how you run your business. Lau: It is. Anne: And I truly believe, and I want this for every BOSS out there. I really, really do. I mean, gosh, guys, I've learned so much in my many years. And Lau, you too, I'm quite positive. I've learned so much about valuing my worth and understanding good clients to work with and knowing where to place myself. And if I need to negotiate a specific rate or a custom rate, which is what we do all the time, pretty much, for every single client, and it needs to be a little bit lower to fit a budget, and it's okay with me, and I know I'm going to get more work, or it'll be worth it in some other way outside of monetary value, that is up to me. That is my judgment. That is my business decision, and it is how I run my business. And I will tell you that being able to walk away and saying no, and I've said this multiple times, has given me the confidence to be able to understand my worth and be able to be successful in my business. And I think however you do that, whether you're on Fiverr, whether you're on another casting website, whether it gives you the confidence at some point that you're like, I don't need this anymore, or I can get my own clients -- I think it's all a stepping stone. And I think it truly is what I want for all the BOSSes is that confidence. You're worthy of a fair price, whether, no matter what platform you're on. You're worthy of a fair price. And once you have that confidence and the confidence to walk away from a low ball price, right, or something that deems you as cheap, right, then your business will grow. And once your business grows, it's kind of like, it's just like a wonderful little snowball that just gathers the confidence and it gathers, you know, oh, this is great. Now I know what I'm worth, and my business can grow and I can be successful and I can put some money in the bank, right? And then if that if that next client says no or offers me something too low it's okay I can walk away. I've got the money in the bank. I'm able to pay the bills and boom. Lau: That's right. Anne: And that's what I want for all of you BOSSes out there, however you get there. Know, know, know your worth. Lau: Mm-hmm, and it goes right into your submissions if you were with an agency. I'm an agent, and I can tell you, there are times we're working with a budget that is minuscule. It's like, oh my gosh, who could even work for this? And yet we have a lot of folks that want to book that job for many, many reasons. And then the next one that comes in is overpriced. They're giving us too much budget for it, and they don’t realize it. Anne: But Lau, is there ever really too much? Lau: No, no, but like, if you see it in the same category, right next to each other, and you're like, Oh, my goodness, this one's offering $400 with no usage. And then this one's offering, you know, $2000 with three years’ usage. You're like, oh my goodness, there isn't much difference between these two. And I know for a fact, I can tell everyone hands down, that I have many people who want to audition and want to submit for both. And I respect that. Anne: Now as an agent, will you fight for higher rates? Lau: Oh, always. I mean, that to us is a truism. We're always going to go back and forth on every single thing that comes in and goes, come on, we need another thousand on this. You can do, right? So we're always quoting high. Anne: You're always fighting for the talent, yes. Lau: That's not even to be discussed because that's our job. That's what we do. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And that's what we want to do. But we know, like as negotiators and anyone who's on that business, and we know where it stops. Like if you push just hard enough, you’re going to lose that client. It’s okay, sometimes we’ll lose the battle, but we always want to win the war, so to speak. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: Is that we don't want to lose the client unless it's like completely insane. Anne: Yeah. Lau: We want to keep the clients because we know we have a whole lot of people who still want to submit and work. Anne: Yeah. Lau: They just want to work. Anne: And I love that. I love that you said that, your experience as an agent, because, guys, agents go through it as well. I mean, you're fighting for fair compensation, for good rates. God, it always used to make me wonder, because people would be like, well, my agent shouldn't accept that rate. And I'm like, sometimes the agent has nothing to do with that rate, right? And like you just mentioned, there's a fine line between losing the client forever, right, because you can't push. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And understanding that. I mean, voice talent, sometimes I wonder where they get their assumptions from, right? You know what, you've got to understand this is a business, it's negotiation, and that, it happens. It does. Sometimes there is no budget. Lau: I also don't want to play the omnipotent authority of what everyone could or should be doing. I want to be a conduit to getting people work, and that means at all different rates, at all different levels, at all different -- and those people need to take agency and to self-screen and say, I don't want to do that. Anne: Exactly. Lau: I say, great, you don't even have to let me know, just pass on it. That's okay. I don't make any judgment as to why you're doing it or why you're not doing it. I'm just running on an assumption, you're a professional talent, you want to be in the roster, and you want to be privy to what is coming through. Anne: Yeah. Lau: And that's all I feel. And to me, Fiverr is the same thing. If you want to be on the platform, you want to be privy to what's coming through, and then you make your own decisions and self-screen. To me, it's very, very much the same. Anne: Excellent topic. The F word, guys. Remember, mind your own business and know your worth. And thank you, Lau, for an amazing discussion yet once again. Lau: Awesome. Anne: Ah, good stuff. Lau: I loved it. Anne: BOSSes, I want to take a moment and have you imagine a world full of passionate, empowered, diverse individuals, giving collectively and intentionally to create a world that they want to see. You can make a difference. 100VoicesWhoCare.org to learn more. Also, big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like a BOSS. Find out more at IPDTL.com. Thank you so much, everyone. We love you. We'll see you next week. Lau: See you next week! Anne: Bye. Lau: Bye!