VO BOSS

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by her superpower co-host, Lau Lapides, to discuss a critical issue in the voiceover industry: brand alignment and navigating controversy. Sparked by the American Eagle/Sydney Sweeney campaign, the hosts explore how a voice actor's ethics and personal brand are intrinsically linked to the clients they represent. They emphasize that in the age of social media, protecting your digital reputation is non-negotiable for long-term career success. 00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey bosses, Anne Ganguzza, you know your journey in voiceover is not just about landing gigs. It's about growing both personally and professionally. At Anne Ganguzza Voice Productions, I focus on coaching and demo production that nurtures your voice and your confidence. Let's grow together. Visit anneganguzza.com to find out more.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Ganguzza.  00:47 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Boss Superpower Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with my awesome superpower co-host Lollapetas.  00:56 - Lau (Guest) Hello, Annie, it's so good to be back. I love being in this Zoom room with you. Or it's not Zoom, but it's Riverside, but I love being in this space room with you. Or it's not Zoom, but it's Riverside, but I love being in this space with you, I know I look forward to it.  01:10 - Anne (Host) We get to see each other and it's been so long it's fabulous when we get back together because we have so much to catch up on. I know, I know oh my gosh.  01:19 - Lau (Guest) By the way, I love your outfit today. You look great.  01:23 - Anne (Host) Why thank you my, my jean shirt or my denim shirt? No, what's really cool about this is this is kind of well, I should say it's it's. It's deceiving, maybe because it looks like it's denim but it's actually like French Terry, and so it's super, super comfortable. But you know, speaking of jeans, I was going to say what color are your jeans.  01:50 Well, you know, I have good jeans and advertising campaigns for our businesses. I mean gosh, it's all over the news. I mean the American Eagle campaign with Sydney Sweeney. I mean, you know, she's got good jeans, and so it's a really interesting debate. I think it's something that we could absolutely relate to our own voiceover businesses in terms of associating with now, first of all, like associating with a brand that may or may not be controversial or may or may not be on the side of you know where your feelings align. I think that would be a really, really interesting topic.  02:30 - Lau (Guest) Lau I love that topic because we hear that word floating in the industry now for quite a while branding. Branding is connected to marketing, is connected to selling right and how you represent yourself and who you're connected to. That helps you represent yourself as well. And making some of those concerted decisions on who you want to be attached to and connected to, that really help you design your ethos of your business.  02:58 - Anne (Host) Well, they can help you. They can help you be successful in the industry, or maybe not. They can help you be controversial in the industry, or maybe not. They can help you be controversial in the industry. It's such an interesting. Now you know one thing about that campaign for me, when I first saw it, I didn't think anything of it, because I am a woman of a certain age and I remember the Jean campaign with Brooke Shields and Calvin Klein, and I just remember it, with Brooke Shields and Calvin Klein, and I just remember it, you know. And so, as a girl in, I think it was in elementary or high school. I can't remember when that came out, but it was the 80s, right? All I know is that I wanted a pair of Calvin Klein jeans because I wanted to look like Brooke Shields. Now today, didn't we all did not we Right?  03:41 No, I thought nothing of it, right, I thought nothing really horrible of it. But then it did become controversial because obviously she was, you know, she was young when she did that ad and it was a little bit sexually, you know, promiscuous, some people would say. And so, you know, today that type of advertising wouldn't fly and I think people are comparing Sydney Sweeney with that, because of she's got good genes, you've got an attractive female and a pair of jeans, and you know, of course, american Eagle says you know, it was always all about the genes, it's not always not about the, not about the misconception that jeans J-E-A-N-S is similar to G-E-N-E-S, so there's a lot to unpack there.  04:25 I don't know how did you react to it when it first came out? What were your thoughts?  04:29 - Lau (Guest) Well, you know what's so funny about the Brooke Shields thing that you bring up? That's the first thing I thought of is that everyone who's outraged about it is not old enough to remember the Brooke Shields and that's what they were really copying. I think that was a copycat from 45 years ago Going back to the old let's sell.  04:45 Yeah, but if you remember, annie, it was there was another controversy hooked on to Brooke Shields at that time, based on that commercial, because that was right around the time that she had shot Blue Lagoon, blue Lagoon, yeah, and she was only like 11, 11 or 12.  05:05 - Anne (Host) I think it was 13.  05:05 - Lau (Guest) Well, by that time she was about 13. But she was still very young and the mother was managing her and so there was a huge blowup and controversy about this young girl doing these so-called sexually explicit commercials about my sexuality and my body, about my sexuality and my body. And I remember thinking, and when I saw it again I thought wow, how did she get those jeans on without showing us anything, right in front of us, Like I was amazed and, as a young girl, I yeah, it was a Cirque du Soleil act.  05:35 It was amazing. Yeah, you know, as a young girl, media is so influential right.  05:41 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) So, influential.  05:41 - Anne (Host) The thing is that, as voice actors, we really have a part in playing into the media, right, because our voices are representing brands, and for me at the time, I didn't consider anything wrong with it. All I know is that I wanted to look like Brooke Shields in those jeans and therefore I wanted the jeans. And I'll tell you what it was an expressly popular campaign that made Calvin Klein a ton of money, a ton of money.  06:09 - Lau (Guest) But if you look at it now as an adult and you listen from a voiceover perspective, her voice was very, very young very kidlike and very straightforward. She was trying to be, if anything, a little bit smart or intellectual versus overly sexy and centralized, but yet the perception, the visual right Was that was that.  06:34 - Anne (Host) That's exactly it. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things there, and if you were the voice of a campaign that was controversial, right would. If it was something you believed in or didn't believe in, is that something that, as a voice actor, would you accept? And I think, or an actor, I mean any kind of role right? Do you accept those roles if they align with your belief system or your morals or your ethics or whatever that is, and how can it propel your business forward or not?  07:07 I mean, there's just so much that we have choices in, and as well as influence in, as voice actors, and we think sometimes we're hiding behind this microphone, but no, we're still a very intricate part of a media campaign. And so, really, as a voice actor, how do you decide? Really, is you know, oh, this could really propel my campaign if I decide that I want to align with this brand and be the voice of it, or sometimes it's not even about being the voice of it. It's maybe working with that brand in any capacity. You know, how is that going to affect your business? Because people have opinions, people always have opinions, and gosh aren't they all over the place.  07:56 - Lau (Guest) Now that social media is prevalent, they're the Wild West we like to call it right, Annie, it's the Wild West.  07:59 And I would say in my mind it's likened to all the people, not just women but men too. In my mind it's likened to all the people, not just women but men too, but certainly all the women, who have said for many years you know, I am interested in doing romance novels, exotica work, triple X, adult swim as a voiceover talent, but I'm concerned about how my business is going to be viewed. I'm going to use an AKA, an alter ego, another name, another business name, and so I think that voiceover talent have been making these decisions for a very, very long time. Even though we don't have the visuals for the voiceover talent, we may have the visual for the work and so for the work itself may give visuals and vocals that are not aligned with the talent's vision of their business, and sometimes you don't even know.  08:49 - Anne (Host) Sometimes you don't even know, right. I mean you can tell a lot by the context of the script sometimes, but sometimes you can. You don't know where that's going to end up. And again, now that makes me think of, like, you know deep fakes and AI and you don't know where your voice is going to be used. But if you are, you know, an active participant and you are aware, I think really the best thing you can do if these things are concerning to you, right, the more you know, the more you're educated, the better off you're going to be, because you can make those decisions to determine if you want to be aligned.  09:24 I mean there have been careers ruined by, you know, wrong brand alignment, and gosh knows with today's you know political climate. I mean it comes down to and you know what, laura, it comes down to if you think about it. We're in a business. We need to make money, right, and guess what? So are companies that are advertising, right. They're in the business to make money and so a lot of times our decisions are based on money. Yeah.  09:52 - Lau (Guest) Wake up, smell the coffee right, and it's like who is to judge what one person or one brand identity or one company should or shouldn't be doing. It's really in the eyes and ears of the audience. It's really the perception. So, as many people really disagree, fervently disagree and are angered and outraged by that particular American Eagle campaign, you have a mass swath of people who are buying everything.  10:24 - Anne (Host) That gene that she is, they can't keep. I'm just saying or buying everything that gene, that gene that they can't keep it on the proverbial shelf Exactly.  10:29 Right, Exactly so yeah, and it's interesting because I read a couple of. I read a couple of articles about it and they, of course, american Eagle says it's all about the genes. It's always been about the genes and in reality it kind of is like a return back to marketing. You know, marketing for the last few years has been very concerned with, of course, the shift, notice how the shift in cultural trends, right to making sure inclusivity, diversity, you know, every body type is shown and everybody is represented, which I thought was great. I mean I love that. But apparently, like, if you're in the business, I mean, did it sell? I thought it did.  11:09 Personally, I aligned with it better and I bought, I consumed, just like I did before. However, there is a a huge, there's a huge another aspect to this to unpack, about influencers, right, I mean, in reality, I mean she's a famous actress, right, and so just like Brooke Shields. So if she's going to wear these jeans and feel good in them and look good in them, then that's going to really entice other people to buy and you know, or not, right? And If they, I mean how many times? Lau and I I have very strong ideas about like companies and what they do with their money. So like if they're known to, you know, I don't know, do bad things. I will not support of things that companies do behind the scenes and therefore, when I do find out, I then have a choice, to make a decision whether I want to consume that, you know, buy that or not. And I think that, again, as a consumer and as a voice actor, the more educated we can be, the better decisions we can make to determine if we want to align with that.  12:21 - Lau (Guest) I would totally agree and I would say the irony to me about talking about influencers online is why are they called influencers? Yeah, yeah, they're called influences because they have powerful influence over mass swaths of people who want to look like them, sound like them, live like them, whatever. Of people who want to look like them, sound like them, live like them, whatever. So if we were to make a value judgment, we would have to make it evenly across the board between network television and social media and voiceover and radio and TV, that that is just a no-go, which, of course, no one's going to do. We're not going to do that because you know it's a free country and people are going to run their businesses how they run their businesses girls on Instagram to get that facelift or to get those eyebrows or to get those lash extensions, to feel good about who they are.  13:27 - Anne (Host) Well, oh no, okay, you bring up a really important point here, right To feel good about who you are. So what I do because you know I do a little bit of fashion influencing- I know you are an influencer, actually.  13:39 - Lau (Guest) My well, oh my goodness, put your influencer hat on.  13:42 - Anne (Host) So my influencer hat is and I've been, I've been multiple sizes, I've been big and I've been small, right, I mean, I don't know, I've never considered myself small, but that's a whole nother podcast. So, depending on the size right, I followed different influencers. I found and for the most part, if you think about it, when I was a little bit bigger, I had an influencer who I loved her because she was bigger and she was confident and she was beautiful. And I said, gosh, if I could just be confident. And you know, and as a matter of fact, people in my life I've known, I'm like gosh, she's bigger and she's confident. I wish I could be confident like that. I could be confident like that. And then when I, when I started to lose weight, then I it's funny because I switched, following the one influencer who her body type was a little bit bigger, to an influence it was a little bit more my, my body type size, or maybe even smaller, because it was then helpful, it was motivating for me, or inspiring to me.  14:36 And so, in reality and in every instance, right, the influencer made me feel better about myself. Right, I was either motivated or inspired. To well, people are going to say it might be healthy if you say, oh, I want to look like them. But in reality, when it came to my weight, my body size, it was more about becoming healthy. I needed to become healthy, right. And yeah, the clothes were pretty. I didn't have that option with these clothes at this particular size. So, yeah, there was something inspirational and motivational. And then there was the girl who I still follow. She's a bigger girl who is just beautiful at whatever size she's at, and it's really the message that she's saying. That's really the most important thing.  15:17 - Lau (Guest) But I have a question about that, annie, and I know we're getting a little farther away from the voiceover aspect, but from a performance and business aspect, voiceovers need to be thinking about all of this and how you represent your brand and how you think about what you do. Well, absolutely, my question is you have a lot of these people, including, like Lizzo, for instance she was the first one that came to my mind, yeah who made it very public that they lost a ton of weight and that they are very happy they did that and very happy that they're healthier and very happy at whatever they're at.  15:51 - Anne (Host) Yeah.  15:52 - Lau (Guest) So it makes you question well, wait a second, is this for branding sake, to have those brands out there because they know, like a big part of the population is, say, has a certain look or a certain size or a certain sound? Well, yeah, the biggest demographic, the biggest demographic, right? Yeah, versus the reality of the person actually feeling good in their life, I'm going to argue that they're performers and they're performing and that many of them don't feel good about some of the choices they've made in their life and therefore they go and change it. Or their company representatives say you need to change this brand because it is not resonating with the majority of our audiences and we will never know.  16:38 Never know how much influence comes from which direction. We will really not know, that right.  16:44 - Anne (Host) Absolutely. I mean and again this is I mean for bosses out there if you think we're going off topic, in reality we're not, because we're not talking about marketing and advertising, which directly affects us. I mean, that's where we I mean our voices are representing brands that have fluctuations in the way that they advertise and in the way that they market their products, and it's important for us to understand where it's headed, where the trends are and really what is it that matters. And then, what is it that matters to you as an actor, being a part of that campaign, resonating with a brand that may or may not be controversial? Right, Brands change.  17:26 - Lau (Guest) This is where you have to forgive yourself they shift and change trends over time, because that's the natural state of being a human being, is that you age, you change, trends change whatever. Another one that comes to my mind one of my favorite original rappers and then became actress was Queen Latifah. Yeah, yeah. Who I loved for so many reasons. Yeah she's awesome Right.  17:50 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Rubenesque woman beautiful woman.  17:52 - Lau (Guest) Well, she went on a whole campaign I can't remember what it was, whether it was Jenny Craig or Nutrisystem or whatever it was, but she became the brand ambassador of them to lose weight and she had trouble doing it and she never reached the target weight. When she didn't, they dropped her. Yeah, yeah, okay. So my point is was that her and it made you feel like, it made me feel like you know, when you use Tide or use a laundry detergent and then, all of a sudden, you've been using it and it's been good for years, and then it's like no, all new developed. You think, what have I been using that whole time? It wasn't really good. That's how it made me feel.  18:31 - Anne (Host) Well influencing you know and marketing advertising, influencing in their way influencing right as opposed to, and I think that's why influencers became really popular, because it was real people, it wasn't companies. Well, it was the illusion of real people, right?  18:47 Well, they are real people Right right, oh look, I'm not being paid for this but a lot of times, influencers, they get a little bit of a cut. I mean I, you know, hey, I got a little bit of a cut. I'm encouraged to, you know, try this top or this, you know, this pants set or whatever, and then talk about it so that I can get a little bit of a break or a deal. But I creatively love to curate outfits and, to be quite honest, the amount of time I spend at this point because I don't do it full time the amount of time that I spend, you know, putting together videos and stuff, it takes a lot of time. That's my, that's like a, that's a day of my weekend in reality, and I don't make I don't make half as much money as I do when I'm doing voiceover. So for me that's just like a passion project.  19:31 But what is it that voice actors you know need to do? I mean, I think that you either don't realize that you are an intrinsic part of a brand that could or could not be, you know, I mean, you probably know if they're controversial. It's the same thing with political voiceover, Right, we talked about this like not so long ago. What's you know? Are you on a particular side of the fence? Are you? Is your voice, your voice being speaking things that align with your, what you believe in and your morals and your ethics? Or are you just voicing things to make money, because it happens to be something that pays the bills?  20:09 - Lau (Guest) Right and really paying attention to what your audience is identifying your value as. Like I can come in and say, well, I'm going to provide this, I'm going to do this, but I may not have the calling for that. I have to pay attention. Where is the calling of the audience?  20:27 And then go to the. If I want to go to the full extent of that brand, give them awareness of what it is, awareness of my, you know, professionalism, my ethos in it. Whatever that is, it's not always what I'm starting out to be is what it's going to be. I see that all the time like a mismatch of brand knowledge. Someone would say, well, I do this all the time, I play this all the time and I say, right, but what are you being hired for? What you're being hired for might be very different than what you do in your side life.  21:01 - Anne (Host) And if you think about it, like if you align yourself with a style of voiceover that is, you know, has a message, right, that may or it on levels with brands that I've been associated with, where, if you're not careful and you know I mean with the VO Boss podcast, right, if you're not careful people will associate you with those brands as well, and you know that can be detrimental to your career, to your livelihood, and that is something it's sometimes. It's not an easy decision. It's not an easy decision to make. It's not an easy decision.  21:42 - Lau (Guest) It's not an easy decision to make. It's not an easy decision. You have to realize you're performing a part. So whenever you are in that what I call the awareness zone that's like the industry awareness of who you are Like I feel like I play two parts. One is the real person in the larger world, who may or may not know me, and then the person, the mama, who knows me, who people know me in the larger world, who may or may not know me, and then the person, the mama, who knows me, who people know me in the industry. And when I play that role, I know I'm always to some degree on, you're always on and having that awareness that there is a performance value to what you do. How?  22:15 - Anne (Host) interesting because your brand, since I've known you, has evolved into Mama Lau, which you know what I mean. Because I want to say it's because I started calling you Mama Lau, because that's what I called my mother, and then it turned into Mama Lau, but now as Mama Lau, known as Mama Lau in the industry. Right, you now need to be considerate of. Okay, what does this brand speak about me? And if you were to do something, that would not be Mama Lau.  22:42 - Lau (Guest) Right, so I'm not going to go to Vegas and become a stripper anytime soon. Are you going to?  22:47 - Anne (Host) be an erotic. I mean, would you be an erotica audiobook narrator? I mean, well, maybe not under Mama Lau but, here, you are here you are with. Unless you're going to be a character voice, right, here you are, I know your voice. And unless you're going to be a character voice and I don't recognize that voice, right, our voices are recognizable.  23:07 I mean, some of us have immediately, like I know, this person's voice from you know long you know, far, far away, I can tell that voice and I have that with some of my students that have distinctly unique voices, right, I'm thinking they probably can't go into you know erotica character work if they don't want to know other people to know about it. Yes, you know, if you want other people to know about it, that's fine. But for you, under that brand, you have to. There's a responsibility to that brand, right?  23:34 - Lau (Guest) Yes, there is.  23:34 - Anne (Host) In what you do. It reminds me of. It reminds me of oh my gosh, who was it? Who was it? He was a comedian. He was fired in 2011 due to offensive tweets he made about the Japan earthquake and the tsunami. And it is, oh my gosh, gilbert Gottfried. There you go.  23:50 - Lau (Guest) Oh wow, how could we not?  23:52 - Anne (Host) remember that, yes. I know right Gilbert Gottfried.  23:55 - Lau (Guest) I didn't know that.  23:56 - Anne (Host) Yeah, oh yeah, and it was. It was. That was, I think, when it first, at least when I was in the industry, when it first became evident that social media and what you do outside of your job in voice acting, will have a direct effect, if it's offensive enough, right On your job. And you know, nowadays people have to be careful on social media what they're posting. And because companies can now go check out your social media, because companies can now go check out your social media, and so for you as a voice actor, again, it has to come to mind that if you are known, or if you are known in social media, now your actions, if people were to look you up on social media and find that you're associated with a brand or find that you are, you've done something that I don't know is not something that aligns with their ethics right, it can affect your business.  24:52 - Lau (Guest) So in a way, annie, it's kind of like we're blurring the lines of our real reality of living a life as a person, with our business and our performance career, that there is kind of that expectation that you sort of represent it all of your life, all of your life, and you're not going to go through anything. That's antithetical to that image that is being put out there, which I mean. For me it's easy because I'm kind of like, I'm a mama type anyway, but for the average person I think that would be hard, that would be a challenge.  25:27 Mama Lau as mama Lau would not go to a Coldplay concert and get yourself caught on the probably not. I'd be the person standing outside with food, waving my hand, going what did you do in there? What did you do?  25:37 - Anne (Host) And we should bring that up, because yet there's another like CEO of you know, of a company, and then the director of HR, the director of the people I forget what they call it now. I'm like director of HR, no people, ceo of people. Forgive me for not knowing what her title was. She was HR, wasn't she?  25:55 - Lau (Guest) The head of HR. Yes, Like top HR, you know? Executive.  26:00 - Anne (Host) I think PMO is a people. I forget what it is, but anyways, see it, you know. So, really, if you think about it, what did that do those actions do to the brand? Right To the brand. Yes, they say all all, what is it? All publicity is good publicity, but do you think that this was good publicity for the company?  26:24 - Lau (Guest) No, no, I don't either. I don't think there was any redeeming value to that and that felt to me it could have been happenstance, but it felt like a setup. It felt like someone tipped someone off to put them on the jumbotron.  26:37 - Anne (Host) Oh interesting, I didn't think that it didn't just feel random.  26:40 - Lau (Guest) There was like, like, how many people were there?  26:44 - Anne (Host) 50,000? I don't know. I think I, I didn't think it, I don't think they were set up, I mean, unless you have somebody in the company that's like. Well, I mean, first of all you have to, you have to know the person that's, you know, focusing on the Jumbotron and say, oh my God, wouldn't it be funny if you know I hate that guy or whatever? But think about it?  27:01 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) I don't know.  27:02 - Anne (Host) Your actions in life right can be directly affected these days because of social media, because of the now back in the day when I had to walk to school 10 miles up a hill in the snow. When there wasn't social media, it was a little easier to get away with, I would say, indiscretions like that.  27:24 - Lau (Guest) But now, maybe even now with being a voiceover talent. You've got that anonymity to some degree.  27:31 - Anne (Host) But not as much anymore. I'm saying not as much anymore, remember, because voice actors, we're all about social media, aren't we? Because, guess what we need to get work and what are we doing? We're trying to showcase're all about social media, aren't we? Because guess what we need to get work and what are we doing? We're trying to showcase our brand on social media, and when you do that, you really have to be prepared for repercussions. If you are going to voice a campaign, associate yourself with a brand that may be controversial, and you know something that is a concern for your business. That may not have been so much of a concern maybe 20, 30 years ago.  28:06 - Lau (Guest) It's true, because I think with probably the third generation now, or what would we say, maybe the second generation now, millennials and Gen Zers, who are digital natives, growing, up online on social media like their life online on social media like they didn't see the commercial.  28:23 Their life- is on social media. So their lines are very blurred, like I would say, arguably our generation x not as blurred like I know. When I was younger I used to think, oh, the Brady kids are really like that. Now I realize they're separate people, right, they're separate people than what they did in the sitcom. But nowadays it's like oh, everyone thinks that anything you do online is you, is really you, and so it puts a lot of pressure on those people to say okay, am I in alignment with the kind of brand that I want to have out there or not?  29:02 And a lot of people will say well, you know what do they say? All good, all press, bad press, negative press is still good, press, it's still good. I don't know about that. I don't know about that. I don't think that's true. Yeah, I don't think that's true.  29:15 - Anne (Host) I mean in a way. I mean in a way who said?  29:19 - Lau (Guest) that. Beyonce, who said that Someone big said that I don't even remember, but in a way, american Eagle is benefiting from the controversy.  29:27 - Anne (Host) However, there's really good arguments on either side of it. Again, they're promoting to a crowd you know who are their best sellers. Do you know what I mean? Because, as I and you also talked about in the beginning, we have a certain familiarness with advertising from 30 years ago, right 40 years ago, and so for us, maybe that ad was like oh okay, I didn't think anything of it, but then all of a sudden, because of the younger generation, right, who are like hey, what is this? Or you know, or why, especially with political things going on, what do you mean? Genes like G-E-N-E-S Is that? Then it became a political thing. So I think that we have to be really, really careful, as voice actors on social media, to make sure that we're aware, be aware, educate yourself and be aware of what your voice, what your presence, what your social presence means to your business.  30:33 - Lau (Guest) And I also would add on to that, annie, that we just had a discussion because my group was in New York showcasing of actors and I was really tough, talk about mama, tough. I was really tough and saying listen, I'm just going to tell you this right now If you don't go into your social media right now, before you audition for those agents, those casting directors, those producers, and clean it up and scrub your stuff, scrub it.  30:57 Get reputation defenders. Do whatever you need to do to scrub it. Keep your ideas and ideals separate, because you don't want to alienate people and their whole audience before you even meet them and audition for them, do you? I mean, do you to be a really good note to leave on Digital Digital?  31:25 - Anne (Host) We are digital. We are digital.  31:27 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Your footprint's there.  31:28 - Anne (Host) Digital is traceable, just saying Digital is traceable, you are. Have you ever tried to? And again, we've never really covered this in depth, but if you think about it, if you ever tried to make a comment and then delete it and then it didn't really delete or did, how many people took a screenshot of that? Yeah, you know, before you deleted it.  31:48 So again, things are digital and things, and because we've gotten again on your phone, on your computer, just assume that people are tracing and I know, yes, you can get it's not right and I get that, but just assume and just you know, honestly, just be aware, be aware and protect your business, protect your voice, protect your business and protect your bossness. Guys, be a bossness.  32:16 - Lau (Guest) And I'll leave on this note in saying yes, and I'll piggyback by saying, even just for who you are as a person, be happy and content with the brand you're creating. Because, you're going to have to live with that for a long time. As long as you have your business, you'll have to live with it.  32:34 - Anne (Host) I have people.  32:35 - Lau (Guest) Annie when I go to a conference or something screaming across the room hey mama, how are you? If I didn't like that, I didn't want that, I'd have to change it. I'd have to really change it and make a concerted effort to do that so be happy with what you're selecting and what you're choosing and what your audience is giving to you and, if not, strategize elsewhere, redirect it.  32:59 - Anne (Host) Good stuff, good stuff, amazing Bosses. We would love to hear your thoughts honestly. So you know, write us at theboss, annaviobosscom. We'd love to hear from you right in our community Facebook page. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this. So, Lau, it's been amazing, amazing, as always. Big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network like bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Bosses have an amazing week and we'll see you next week.  33:30 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Bye, see you next time. Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.     

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by Tom Dheere to discuss a foundational topic for every voiceover career: coaching. The hosts assert that every voice actor, from beginner to veteran, needs a coach. The Bosses explore why continuous learning is a necessity in today's saturated market, how to avoid being overwhelmed by industry information, and the combined importance of mastering both performance and business skills.   00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey Boss listeners. Are you ready to turn your voiceover career goals into achievements? With my personalized coaching and demo production, I'm here to help you reach new milestones. You know you're already part of a Boss community that strives for the very best. Let's elevate that. Your success is my next project. Find out more at anneganguzza.com.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:44 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Real Bosses series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm delighted to be here with Mr Tom Dheere. Yay, yay, hello Anne, hi Tom, yes, guess what, tom, it's that time of year again.  01:01 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It is you?  01:01 - Anne (Host) know when everybody's going back to school.  01:05 - Tom (Guest) Back to school. Oh yeah, I already bought my trapper keeper.  01:09 - Anne (Host) Oh my gosh, I used to love those. You know that was one of my favorite things about going back to school is buying office supplies and getting ready, and I was one of those rare. I don't know, tom, if you were one of those students, but I loved school. Love, tom, if you were one of those students, but I loved school. Love, love, love school. And it was always exciting to me to, number one, go back for the social component of things and then to go back and like I don't know. I always wanted to like advance in my subjects, and so I was always excited about learning.  01:37 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, me too. I do love school supplies, like if anyone who knows me as just me, or me as the vo strategist like?  01:47 - Anne (Host) of course he loves school supplies right, you know, sharpened pencils and rulers and everything being organized, paper clips and clothes, clothes, my new school clothes.  01:54 - Tom (Guest) You know, hey, oh, love the school clothes. Gotta get the new school clothes.  01:58 - Anne (Host) Well then, speaking of school, you know. I mean maybe it's time that we have a chat about coaching, coaching in this industry. And does it matter, tom, does it? There's so much information out there. Does it matter? Is it beneficial?  02:15 - Tom (Guest) let's, let's, let's chat about that well, one at first. It's funny that we actually haven't talked about this in the few years that we've done the real bosses podcast and two. You know there's an old saying which is never ask an encyclopedia salesman if you need an encyclopedia.  02:28 - Anne (Host) Yes, exactly so you asking?  02:29 - Tom (Guest) me a voiceover coach. If voice actors need voiceover coaching, we'll say well, of course, the answer is yes.  02:34 - Anne (Host) I know and for me to say do we need coaching? As a coach and demo producer.  02:45 - Tom (Guest) Of course. Of course we're gonna say so. Yes, full disclosure. Of course, we as coaches, yes. But here's the thing about it is that I know ann does not accept everybody that that wants to work with her, and I know that not. I don't accept everybody that wants to work with me for all kind, for all kinds of uh, all kinds of reasons. But every voice, regardless of where they are in their journey, needs coaching. You always need to be learning. The greatest baseball players and musicians everyone has a coach. Tiger Woods has a swing coach. Aaron Judge has a baseball bat swing coach as opposed to a golf swing coach. All the greatest artists and athletes have coaching. Do they know more than most? Can they do it better than most? Of course, that's why they are in the positions that they are in doing what they're doing, making what they're making, being as famous as they are, but it's a constant, constant sort of you know all the arts. There needs to be a constant level of education re-education, continuous learning, as they say, absolutely.  03:49 - Anne (Host) And if you're just starting out in the industry, you have to have a fundamental base. And there is, you know, hey, I am the biggest you know. And Google and gangoozle, and gangoozle, and gangoozle, whatever, I am the biggest lover of you know. Search the internet, find the answers. Because I mean, gosh, back in the day, you remember when we used to have to do research, we'd have to actually go to the library and then you would write, like I'd have to write notes for my term paper on like, on like index cards.  04:17 - Tom (Guest) What is this library? What is?  04:19 - Anne (Host) this library. What is this library? Well, our, I mean the library is at our fingertips and so we can. I mean, there's so much out there and, tom, both you and I put out a lot of content in regards to this industry and you know the business of the industry and performance. I give out performance tips and so I think a lot of times when you're first starting out, it can be really overwhelming, and so having a source, a coach, to go to, to kind of make it less overwhelming, can be an actual advantage as well.  04:52 As for me, what was I saying the other day? Oh, in my Pilates class I was like, yeah, I pay to go to this Pilates class so I can do the stretching on the foam roller that I have here at home and I just don't do Right, so I go and use the foam roller that's at the Pilates studio. But there's something to be said in being in a classroom and and actually saying I am dedicating this time for me to learn something or to, you know, to, to, to grow myself, and coaching is a big part of that grow myself, and coaching is a big part of that.  05:30 - Tom (Guest) I agree, the ability to take time and money to commit to a process that you know in. To a certain degree, you could do some of it on your own, but a lot of people most people, I would say like the reason why I have so many mentorship students that I have is that they're like I just need you.  05:48 I just need to have someone to talk to once a month, bounce ideas off of and hold me accountable for it and when you have, and I love accountability and I love stand up groups and meet up groups, but when they actually have to fork money over to me to basically be a paid accountability buddy, there's something to that, something to that I mean. And also, you know, when you're in an accountability buddy group with an accountability buddy or a mastermind group or standup group, that's all great, but most of them are peers.  06:19 Yes, absolutely With the same level of experience and knowledge as you as opposed to working with you or me or another coach who is just have you know, scads of knowledge and experience and the ability to disseminate that knowledge effectively. And also, I know you and I know you keep up with industry trends on a performance and technology and business and marketing level. So do I. We have to do that to be relevant and effective. We have our means. We read the same blogs and watch the same podcasts as everybody else, but I'm sure I know I have my own little secret methods of how I'm keeping up with things, and I'm sure you do too that we're able to aggregate and have, in a concise Anne, to say this is what's going on in the industry, this is how it applies to you. These are the decisions that you could make based on who you are, your talent level, your experience level, the time you have, the money you have that could get you where you want to go.  07:15 - Anne (Host) Well, and the accountability it doesn't just stop with the student. I mean, the coach is accountable. And that is, I think, where the difference is between peer accountability groups, because peer accountability groups, yeah, we can say, yeah, you were supposed to do this last week, or you, this is, this is on your goal sheet, but the stakes are not as high. I don't believe in a peer accountability group as a coach, because coaches are judged on their effectiveness, right, and they they get business based upon their effectiveness and word of mouth. So when you want to go work with someone where that is a factor, you're going to get education.  07:54 That, I think, really counts and is really intentional and therefore, I believe the quality of that is going to be better and it's going to be directly customized, especially if it's one-on-one coaching, and I do both group coaching and one-on-one coaching. But really, when you get that one-on-one time with a coach, there's nothing better than that, because I mean, I look, I offer group coaching as well, but that one-on-one time is precious. That is where it is all about you. It's customized just for you, your career, your growth. And that is where I think coaching really shines and why it still matters and I think, actually, I think it matters more today than it did in years past, because there's so much more competition out there, tom and there's, of course, you know, the synthetic competition out there there, tom, and there's, of course, you know, the synthetic competition out there and we need to really create something, a footprint for ourselves or a voice print, really for ourselves, that is unique and that is competitive and that can actually connect with our audience, which is what our clients are paying us for.  08:59 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, there are more voiceover opportunities for voice actors of all experience levels than ever ever before. There's more genres than ever. There are more voiceover opportunities for voice actors of all experience levels than ever ever before. There's more genres than ever. There are more casting sites than ever, you know, because when I just started, you know there was radio commercials and TV commercials and you know not that much. I mean there was e-learning, reel-to-reel kind of stuff. You know there wasn't that much more.  09:24 Now there's app narration, explainer videos, you know, audio description. There's just so many other ways to get work. But the flip side of that, Anne, is that it's so complicated because there's almost like there's too many choices and there's too many coaches and there's too many casting sites and there's too many blogs and too many podcasts and too many DAWs and too many CRMs and the ability to navigate that and make sure that their time and money is well spent. It's a huge challenge. I mean, I'm on Reddit pretty regularly hanging out on the voiceover related subreddits and listening and watching and, you know, giving advice and stuff like that, and they all say the same thing I don't know where to find a good coach. I don't know how to vet a good coach. I got ripped off by this coach, isn't?  10:15 - Anne (Host) that funny? That's always the question. That's always the question because I think everybody's overwhelmed with that information. You know, I don't think it's unlike just because it's you know the online world today. I don't think it's unlike choices that you have in most everything, right, where can you find a good one? And so what do we do? We rely on word of mouth, we rely on recommendations from our peers who have had a good coach and can recommend a good coach, and so I think that it's good that we have the community and coaches that are out there. You know, hopefully you have a good reputation and if you don't, and if you're just kind of a fly by night coach, well, people will find that out too. So I think that it's, in a way, it's good that there is lots of talk and communication and I always tell you know people, testimonials are always, they're so worthwhile, and word of mouth and communication, and I always tell you know people, testimonials are always, they're so worthwhile and and word of mouth and recommendations. It really is kind of the way, I think, to get work, to get a good coach to do all of that. But I'm talking for me. I'm involved in the performance aspect of the coaching.  11:19 But you right, first of all, you can have the best voice, you can do the best audition, you can be, have the best performance skills ever, but if somebody doesn't know how to find you, or you're not marketing yourself properly, or you don't have your business set up properly guess what? You're not you're gonna sit there and not get hired. I just spoke to a new student the other day who I literally said he's got four demos. And I and he said, like he's been in the business for six years. And he's like well, I don't have an aging yet and I haven't had a VO job yet. And I'm like well, why have you not had a VO job yet? I mean, he's not like he hasn't spent his money. You know what I mean, and so he needs right.  12:00 And then I went and looked at his website. There's absolutely no. And I said, well, you have no examples of work that you've done. You have, you know, and you can't expect to get it all with just an agent, depending on the genre you're in. And he, basically, I said you can have the best voice in the world, but it's not going to do you any good if nobody can find you. So that's where your business coaching comes into play. So it's not just performance coaching that I think is necessary and business coaching is the non-sexy. It's kind of like I do corporate voiceover and it's like the non-sexy part of voiceover. I think business coaching sometimes gets that same stigma and in fact, it's something that I think people need more than ever, more than ever today. Right, and of course, talk about that, tom, of course as the VO strategist, I always say that everybody should get a business coach.  12:44 - Tom (Guest) But to your point is that you could work with me for years and have the best business model, have the best marketing strategies, but if you're not an effective performer, it's not going to matter.  12:58 Yeah, yeah, just like you said, you could be the best performer in the world, but if nobody knows you exist, it's not going to matter either. So it's this synergistic relationship of developing your what I call your storytelling skills, your VO-101 skills, breath control, microphone technique, your genre skills, you know, to be able to be demo ready, to make that shiny demo, and then you can do the things with the demo, which is what I, as the VO strategist, helps everybody with, and everybody has their own journey. Everybody has their own relationship with themselves internally, which it's our job as coaches to be like. Ok, you know, how does this person tick, how does this person respond? How does this person respond to criticism? How does this person respond to praise? How does this person respond to data? You know, and everybody has their own ideas of what success is for them. And these, you know, these people love these social media platforms and these people hate social media and these people hate all social media, and you know.  14:00 And these people hate social media, and these people hate all social media, and you know. And these people hate online casting sites and so on and so forth. So everybody has their own biases and tendencies and, as effective coaches, on both a performance level and a business and marketing level, you know it's our job to be able to navigate that, and that's why the single most important skill that every voiceover coach performance, business, marketing, tech or otherwise has to have is the ability to listen, which also is the same exact skill that every voice actor needs to be a successful, effective, relevant voice actor. So, if you're having a conversation with someone you're considering coaching with and you can't get a word in because they're talking about themselves or that one cartoon they did 30 years ago, or if it's all sell, sell, sell, that tells you something, because they are not asking you what your pain points are Sure.  14:53 - Anne (Host) Every good marketer Help you solve them.  14:55 - Tom (Guest) Exactly Every good marketer, whether it's a a commercial, tired of using this old mop this way. You know. That's identifying the pain point. If I used to use, I use this mop. This mop stinks. Go use this mop. This mop's great. If there isn't any kind of centered likes, any kind of back and forth, reciprocal. You know what are, what are you going through, what are what challenges have you? What are your struggles? Oh okay, well, based on this, this and this, I can help you with this, this and this, as opposed to some. You know old hack, who's just going to throw these stock scripts at you and you know in three lessons. And then you get your demo using the same scripts that everybody uses or a new hack, who you know?  15:32 - Anne (Host) there are new hacks we've seen a lot of those out there.  15:35 - Tom (Guest) I have noticed quite a few new hacks lately both in the performance and business and marketing categories.  15:42 - Anne (Host) I think also, when you talk about an industry that has evolved and changed so much and especially, you know, this year's been an interesting year I mean you've got changes in things outside of the industry that are affecting, you know, corporations and affecting people who advertise, and affecting the climate of what we do, and so that makes people scared to advertise Sometimes, it makes people scared to spend money. It makes, you know there's all sorts of things happening outside of our industry that affect our industry as well as you know. I mean what's happening in your own personal life as well as you know. I mean what's happening in your own personal life. So we talk about the necessity of performance coaching and business coaching, but there's also, believe it or not, there's something to be said for, you know, coaching of the mind and coaching to be a confident performer, a confident business person, somebody who can be competitive and negotiate in these times where it seems like everybody's vying for the same job, and so there's also mindset skills, I think, that are also valuable to be coached. I think, like you said it in the beginning, like a lifelong learner, I think we always have to be learning. We always have to be learning, and do we have to spend tons and tons of money doing it. No, not necessarily, but I do think that there's an investment there and I think it's something that you need to revisit.  17:08 If you did get coaching prior to your demo, maybe five years ago, and now maybe you need a new demo.  17:15 I personally think that everything needs a refresh and, you know, if you haven't coached in a while, I feel like having someone else's ears listen to you. If you haven't been booking why, why is that? Go to a trusted coach and have them listen to you and see if maybe you've fallen into some sort of a rut where maybe you're not delivering performance-wise I don't know a rut where maybe you're not delivering performance wise. Or, for example, when I spoke to the student yesterday who's like well, I haven't gotten a job yet, and I'm like OK, first of all, I'm looking at your website and you don't have downloadable demos. Your website, your demos, are five years old. You know there's lots of things that can contribute to not getting hired, and so I think that the coaching can. Yes, it's definitely investment, but again, remember, any business, you have investments and I think that again, more than ever, it is important to be educated and understand how you can evolve with the changing VO industry of today.  18:15 - Tom (Guest) I think what I agree with everything that you said wholeheartedly, on top of all, that all voice actors need to invest in empowerment. That is one of the biggest deficiencies that most aspiring voice actors have coming into the industry. They immediately, you know, disempower themselves. They immediately devalue themselves because they have this and this is a system of thought thing that I talk about all the time, Anne is that most people coming into the voice industry think that the industry is vertical, it's a ladder or a mountain and you have to climb it and as you climb it, you kick people in the face and knock them off the ladder or the mountain like it's some reality show and you go ha ha, I take your videos now.  19:01 Haha, I narrate them. You don't blah, blah. That's not how it works. I've always talked about how the voiceover industry is spherical and you're the center of your sphere and your job is to expand your sphere and empower yourself by including as many good humans in it as possible, both agents and managers and audio engineers and coaches and fellow voice actors and your accountant and your lawyer and your graphic designer or your social media manager or whoever to empower you so you can make the best decisions possible to expand that sphere and move your voiceover business forward.  19:36 So to work with an effective coach to be or just to be, just to be educating yourself in general is to empower you you know, on both a personal and a professional level, and the more that you can do that, the better chance you have of making those voiceover dreams come true.  19:55 - Anne (Host) I mean, and and speaking of, we always talk about, what are the red flags? What are the red flags right? How do we know a coach is worthy of my investment? Right, a coach, a business coach or performance coach? You know, I like to start with. First of all, let's let's talk about what it takes to get a good coach. I mean, what are the? What are the green flags Right? What? What do you look for in a good coach? What are some properties of a good coach? Would you?  20:22 - Tom (Guest) say you touched on this earlier. Reputation is definitely one. I mean there's the reputation of someone like a Jennifer Hale who holds the Guinness World Record for the most amount of video game characters ever recorded by a female. So there's a level of something that comes with that.  20:42 Jen also happens to be a great articulator and a great coach, but then there's other coaches that have done one character decades ago hasn't done much work since, and then that's the only thing that they hang their shingle and their reputation on this one character that they played a very, very long time ago. Shingle and their reputation on this one character that they played a very, very long time ago. Jennifer, like you and me and a bunch of our other coaching and voiceover friends are boots on the ground day to day, dare I say, in the trenches. Voice actors. We are working, we are auditioning and marketing and booking regularly. So I always say the first green flag for a good voiceover coach is to go to their voice actor website and go check that out.  21:26 See what they've got, see what they have done recently, see if their demos and YouTube Anne and playlists have been updated recently, check their IMDB profiles and see what work they have done. And layered on top of that, you know, as a voice actor, reputation, obviously, as a voiceover, coach, reputation, testimonials on the website, testimonials on social media platforms, conversations that people are having behind our back on various social media platforms or in subreddits or Discord servers or or facebook groups, like though that's some of the major. Those are two of the biggest green flags is the. You know, because you never know and there is no guarantee of any voice actor achieving any level of success, but you know your chances of empowerment will increase if you work with someone who knows what they're doing, has been doing it for a long time and is doing it today.  22:19 - Anne (Host) Yeah, exactly. So they have evolved over the evolution of the voiceover industry and so they know. They know what agents are looking for, they know what casting directors are looking for, they know what is relevant and current in the industry. So red flags on the other side.  22:38 - Tom (Guest) Well, the red flags are if they just started. There's a lot of voice actors or aspiring voice actors who do a couple of gigs and all of a sudden they hang out their shingle as a voiceover business coach and marketing coach, or performance coach. You and I see it all the time.  22:55 - Anne (Host) I think there has to be some longevity to it.  22:57 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, there needs to be some longevity to it. Yeah, there needs to be some longevity. Now. Everybody has to start somewhere, and you know someone who may turn out to be the greatest performance or business coach ever has to start somewhere, and start with one student.  23:12 And you know what I mean, but for those that haven't been in the industry for very long, that have little or no IMDB credits or have little or no samples on their voiceover website, all of a sudden they're a coach. Well, that's telling you something, and I've seen it from personal experience. People working, for example, with me get some business coaching from me and then a couple months later they're all of a sudden a business coach. And I'm like wait a minute, wait a minute, they never last.  23:38 - Anne (Host) Well, I always think they never last, though.  23:41 You know, for me it's always like and people say this all the time, right, you know the quick success, right, and I see it in. You know ads, in ads like, hey, you don't need expensive equipment or training to be a voice actor. And you know those are designed to sell the dream. And again we have to say it, you know, and it sounds like a broken record, but just if we reach just one person right and I always tell people like, honestly, it's a skill You're becoming an actor. I mean, that doesn't happen overnight. It is a marathon, not a sprint. It really is a marathon, and the people who are truly successful in this industry know that. And marathon by marathon, I'm not talking six months, I'm not talking three months, I'm not talking, I'm talking years, years of working in this industry and putting in the work, doing the auditions, getting the training. Those are the ones that become successful.  24:38 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely. This is a long-term investment. It's just like going to college, going to medical school, going to trade school going to vocational school.  24:49 It takes a long time to develop the skills and collect the tools, both literal, physical, microphone headphones, daw and the other business and marketing tools understanding how to write a business plan, how to create a marketing strategy, how to make long-term investments through blogging and social media, how to make short-term investments through auditioning on free casting sites and then developing your skills, and then maybe moving to pay-to-play casting sites which have higher quality, higher paying auditions and then using that to develop your skills to maybe then you're ready to submit to agents. There are things that have to happen in order. You know, a tomato can't grow until you plant the seed, water it and wait.  25:37 - Anne (Host) Right, exactly. Well, I love that because so many people are like well, I can't invest in another demo or more coaching until I make money in the industry. So, oh gosh, I wish I had a nickel for every time. Somebody said that to me and I'm like but it doesn't quite work like that In reality. You do have to make an initial upfront investment and it may take you a minute before you make that money back. And so you've got to get the skills developed in both running your business, establishing that you know, hanging out the shingle on your online website. There's money involved in that. There's money involved in you know setting up your business or getting you know good business coaching, advertising yourself. And there's, of course, money in performance wise being, you know, coached so that you're competitive.  26:26 In today's industry, you're competitive and doing well, and even the people who do, who are great performers. It's not always an immediate return on investment. I mean, gosh, I mean I've spoken to veterans out there. I mean you have to understand. You have to be in it long enough to understand that you're not going to get a commercial a day necessarily. I mean I don't know anybody that ever has, and that dream can't be sold to you. You really just have to be. I think you have to think what Malcolm? I always go back to Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours, really 10,000 hours of effort and you know to really start to see effective success. And then you evolve into growing into a better performer, a better actor, a better business person. Tom, if somebody's interested in it, how much would you say is when is a good time to invest? When do they take that step and say plunk down my money, here's my money, coach me.  27:37 - Tom (Guest) I would say what has to happen. I think the first thing that has to happen is that they have to invest in storytelling training first. Theater training, on-camera training, singing training, improv training, stand-up comedy training. Pick one of those disciplines.  27:52 - Anne (Host) But does that mean they have to spend money and go to an acting class? Not necessarily.  27:55 - Tom (Guest) I mean improv troops are free. You know open mic night is free. You know there's community theater is free. There's lots of places where they can develop that skill, because first they need to find out if they have that skill they don't want to be on stage.  28:09 - Anne (Host) That's why they're right. That's why they're doing it behind the mic. That's why right.  28:13 - Tom (Guest) So for those people. Right, and the thing about that is they need to find out if they have the ability, through the power of their voice, to engage and be engaging. If you can do that through those, then you can. Then that's when I think is a good time to start your VO training. Here's the other thing, Anne, is that you know. You mentioned briefly AI at the beginning of it. If you are better than AI when you're, you know when you're starting to invest in your training, you're not going to get anywhere.  28:42 - Anne (Host) And what's going to make the difference? And AI reads really well. So if you're nothing but a really pretty reader, yeah, you got no shot.  28:48 - Tom (Guest) You're not going to advance. That's why getting acting, theater, improv, stand up or singing training is going to already you're hitting the ground running by already being better than AI when you're, once you're ready for your VO training. That's why I think you should really start that way.  29:02 - Anne (Host) Yeah, One thing I do want to stress is that my coaching has gone. It was always been acting based. I mean it starts with acting based. So for those people who've never taken acting course, I always I always recommend that they take an acting course anyway, because there's a subtle difference between acting in front of other people or acting with people and then acting behind the mic, and it's nice to have that 360 degree view of all the aspects of the acting. And a good coach will teach you voice acting and not just here's a script, here's how and direct you to a sound that would sound good on a demo, really, and that's why I concentrate. I'm almost obsessed with personally training people to be good actors, because that's going to last them so much longer than just a directed demo. Right, Because if any good director can direct you to a good demo, really it's.  29:55 You know they can give you the read that people are looking for and then you can have a great demo. But then, all of a sudden, when you're asked to produce that or you're trying to audition and you're wondering why you're not booking the jobs, that's because you haven't established the basic skills, the basic acting skills required. Definitely, investment is not just in a voice acting coach, but, yes, in, I think, acting classes, improv classes. All of that can help. All of that can help.  30:21 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely. It's just going to make you that much better, that much faster and that much better of a decision maker than AI, because the real skill, when it comes to true performance, is not about what impressions you can do is can you make strong acting choices quickly, right, right, right. And if you can do that when the client says, hey, abc. That for me, and you can do is can you make strong acting choices quickly, right, right, right. And if you can do that when the client says, hey, abc that for me, and you can give them three takes with different emphasis and different motivations and different levels of engagement.  30:47 That's what's going to get you ahead of the pack.  30:50 - Anne (Host) And honestly, it's one of those things that you have to understand that if you're looking, if you happen to just be getting in this industry and you watch social media, be careful with that, because a lot of what happens on social media is all the positive things, all the hey I booked the gig but I can't tell you about it, or the illusion that you know people are successful, because you know it takes a very special person to be on social media and say, oh gosh, I didn't nail it and I'm so upset Because a lot of times, well, first of all, if it's something that's under NDA, we can't really talk about it anyways.  31:28 But if you give the illusion or you're looking at other people that are giving the illusion that they're successful and making tons of money and they just started or they didn't do it this way, there's multiple ways to be successful in voiceover and there are some people that would say you don't necessarily need coaching. Honestly, I don't buy into that, but I think at some point everybody needs to have that extra ear, hearing them or giving them some sort of education about it, whether it could be a manager, it could be a talent agent. It doesn't have to be an actual voiceover coach, but somebody that's giving you feedback so that you can then take that feedback and improve. Do what you need to educate and improve yourself.  32:12 - Tom (Guest) I think you touched upon something very critical which is one of the most important skills is the ability to self-direct and with COVID wiping out all in-person auditions, at least here in New York City, and for most voice actors, almost 100% of their actual bookings are going to be taking place at home, not being directed. Then you need to learn how to listen to yourself objectively when it comes to pace and tone and inflection and sibilance and regionalisms and mic placement and breath control and, obviously, performance choices. That you should be able to learn how to hear yourself and adjust accordingly, because if you can't do that, you can't be an effective voice actor.  32:58 - Anne (Host) That's a process being able to self-direct, it's being able to develop an ear. An ear doesn't happen overnight, typically, it just doesn't. It's hard for people to actually hear themselves without actually hearing how they sound and to evaluate themselves as an actor. So it is tough. Themselves as an actor. So it is tough. And it does take, I think, a lot of I'm going to say a lot of practice, a lot of you know, auditions, a lot of failing, a lot of just going oh shoot, what could I have done wrong? Or maybe feedback, and so, yeah, there's a lot to that. I mean, gosh, we could just go on all day. But guys, again, you know we're both coaches. Of course we'd love it if you coach with us, but just know that it's valuable. It's valuable in today's voiceover industry to have another set of ears, to have a trusted coach, somebody. That's what they do. They've been established in the business that is guiding you along this career, which, again, is a marathon not a sprint. Good discussion, tom, yeah.  33:57 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Good discussion All right, tom.  33:58 - Anne (Host) Yeah, good discussion. All right guys. I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can network and connect like bosses, like real bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  34:13 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by a very special guest, Aisha Manrique, a distinguished voice talent and coach whose voice resonates across the Caribbean and beyond. In this illuminating conversation, they explore the unique landscape of the Caribbean voiceover industry, where talent must build their careers through hustle and intentional branding. Aisha shares her inspiring journey, from being "divinely called" to the industry to becoming the voice of Disney.

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by the incomparable Melique Berger, a true icon in the voiceover world with over 50 years of acting experience. In this powerful conversation, they explore the central truth of the industry: a voice actor must be an actor first.  

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by her lovely co-host, Danielle Famble, for the Boss Money Talk Series. The BOSSes tackle a fundamental challenge of a voiceover freelance career: managing inconsistent income. Drawing from her past job experiences, Danielle shares practical wisdom on how to budget, save, and build a financial cushion. This conversation redefines "budgeting" as a tool for empowerment and offers a strategic roadmap for every voice actor to take control of their finances, ensure stability, and thrive.   00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey guys, are you ready to achieve those dreams? With MyLife Transformation coaching services, I can help you reach your full potential. Don't let fear and uncertainty hold you back. Take control of your life today. Visit anneganguzza.com to get started.  00:20 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:39 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss Podcast and the Boss Money Talk Series. I'm Anne Ganguzza and I am here with my lovely co-host, Danielle Famble.  00:49 - Danielle (Guest) Hey Anne, hello Danielle, hey, hey, how you doing, how are you? I'm good, I'm good, I'm good.  00:53 - Anne (Host) Well, I am glad to have you back and I have a topic for discussion today, because I've had, on more than one occasion, some students recently talk to me about gosh. I'm just having a hard time finding work and I don't know if I should continue to stay in this industry because it's just getting too hard. I mean to sustain it, and so what should I do? It would be a worthy topic of discussion to talk about, like this particular industry and how we handle our financial situation in times of inconsistency, because it's just a known fact, guys, bosses out there, it is an inconsistent, it is part of being an entrepreneur. Our, our income is inconsistent. So what do we do and how do we budget for those times when maybe it's slow or, you know, when it's not slow, and what do we do when we have inconsistent income?  01:55 - Danielle (Guest) That's such a good question. That's a big part of being a boss, being an entrepreneur and being in this business, and it's good to give the perspective one you know to your students that you're coaching and to anyone listening. You're not alone. It doesn't mean that you're a bad voice actor. It doesn't mean that you're bad at this business. That is the nature of what it is, that we do, and so it has nothing to do with you or your worth or the fact that you're not good. Slow months happen all the time. It happens to the best of us.  02:24 - Anne (Host) And you know, I think it's really something a point worth mentioning is I've been in this industry about 18 years and it's always inconsistent, like there's not been a year where it hasn't been inconsistent. So it is something that I think, if you plan correctly and you're prepared for, it doesn't come as a surprise and it's something that you can absolutely continue to grow and build your business through oh, totally Inconsistent income. So, as long as you plan and strategize, yeah, and you just know this is normal.  02:56 - Danielle (Guest) This has not got anything to do with you. This is a normal thing, you know. It reminds me of I don't know if you know this, anne, but I used to be a waitress for a long, long time. I was a waitress at comedy clubs and the way that I made my money was on tips, and so I got used to living on an inconsistent income and realizing that there's going to be a couple of days or weeks or months where it's going to be great and then it's going to be slow. Maybe you get cut because it's so slow that they don't need you to be there. But you know, the thing that didn't get cut was my fixed expenses, my rent, my cell phone bill, all of those things.  03:35 So I would say to those are stable. Yeah, figure out what your stable expenses are and make sure that you can keep that as your base and plan for your base Anything on top of that. You know when times are great and when you're making a lot more money, you can use that to keep it to the side for a buffer, but really just know what your base expenses are, which then goes back to our longstanding conversation about knowing your numbers and the data and everything else. If you're too afraid to look at what your expenses are, you're not going to know what your base is that you need to be able to maintain at all times. So really like have the courage, look at what are your expenses that are fixed, that are stable, and know what your base is, and you want to be able to hit your base every single month.  04:22 - Anne (Host) So then, budget around your worst month, not your best month. Yeah, absolutely Right. And and that and the and the numbers on your worst month can can actually like I. I mean, I could say what are your expenses and your worst month would be you didn't make anything. Budget around that. That's what I would say. Right, that's your worst case scenario, and so you'll still need to be able to function. And so what does that mean in terms of if I don't make any income for an entire month, does that mean I should give up my voiceover business, danielle?  04:54 - Danielle (Guest) I don't think so, but I do think that you do need to have some way of knowing that there is income coming in from another form. So maybe it's not the income coming in from your voiceover business, because you didn't make anything that month but you do have a nine to five or you do have a babysitting job or you do have. You know, you do Uber on the weekends or what have you. Just know that there needs to be, that money needs to be coming in from somewhere else. If it's not coming in from somewhere else, then we need to find how can we get to our first dollar. Is it in voiceover? Is it in another way of making money? But make sure that you know that there is some income coming in so that, even if the income from your voiceover business is at zero for the month, you know that there is income coming in from somewhere else that's going to be able to offset and still hit your baseline goal.  05:43 - Anne (Host) And I think your budget right for those months you don't live on that budget. I mean it should be a budget for a budget that is a low-income month, not necessarily like I'm going to continue to go to Starbucks every morning or I'm going to. Maybe that's a necessity, maybe you feel like that's worked into your bare necessities, but is that something that you're willing to give up in a low-income month? Or is going out to dinner? I think that's the biggest one. I think, like my husband and I are like okay, we got to stop going out to dinner, right, because that's an unnecessary expense. If we're trying to tighten our budget during a low-income month, it's mostly like oh, and we're going to go out and spend money doing this, or are we going to go out and spend money doing that? A lot of times it's based around food. Why is that?  06:25 - Danielle (Guest) Yeah, I mean, that's mine as well. It's food, but then sometimes it's you know, if you're going to be spending additional money on things in your business, maybe it's that you forego coaching for the next couple of months because you don't really have the money for that, or maybe you need to forego some other things in your business and subscriptions that maybe can be paused. It's not just what you're doing in your life, it's also things that you can cut back in your business too, so that you can make sure that you know. You know, I know that my fixed expenses for the operations of me are this these are the things that will you know, that are always going to stay the same my housing, food, you know, basic necessities, business expenses.  07:10 - Anne (Host) Business expenses as well, I'm going to say rocket money. I had a free trial and I used it. It's great for finding out those recurring monthly expenses that you have that all of a sudden like oh, that Sirius XM like subscription that I have for my car, which I don't drive very often because I work from home, right, but now I can play SiriusXM everywhere, but still that subscription costs, and it used to only cost like $12.99. Now it's like $25 a month, and so that can help you keep track of those subscriptions that creep up on you that you may or may not be utilizing.  07:44 - Danielle (Guest) And everything is a subscription nowadays, so really you have to. It's so sneaky, but you can find a lot of unused subscriptions and then you can recoup some of that money back just by saying no, thank you to those subscriptions.  07:59 - Anne (Host) Think about your Starbucks as a subscription. That's true, really, if it's something you do every day, I mean really. I mean I know there's a lot of people that that's a daily habit, and you know. Think of that as a subscription. And one other thing I wanted to mention, and I would not have even thought of this really until I incorporated and became an S Corp but I am required to pay myself a salary, right, and that's something that you know.  08:22 When you're trying to like skimp on your, your budget, or you're trying to figure out your expenses, don't forget you need money to live, you need money to buy the groceries, you need money to pay the rent you need, and so I think it's always a good idea, even if you're not an S-corp, to really kind of think about here's the money coming in. A portion of that should be set aside for my expenses, for me, right, that's my salary, and then pay yourself on a set schedule. I think that helps you really get an idea as to okay, here's the money I need to live on, here's the money that's profiting in my business. I don't know. It's just one of those things that maybe it's worth it to take a look at.  09:03 - Danielle (Guest) Absolutely. That should be a core staple that everyone should be doing is you know we're doing this. We're in business to make a profit, and so the idea is I need to get paid, and making sure that you pay yourself first so that you are getting used to, and your business is getting used to, that expense of making sure you're paid. That's the study and that's actually how you can stay steady is okay. I know that I'm going to be paying myself a certain amount every single month. That is the expense of my business to pay me, but that's also how I'm able to pay my bills, keeping that steady, and it doesn't need to be that you wait until you are an S-Corp to do that. I would say try to start doing that as quickly as possible. Once you have established the fact that you're doing this business, you're in business.  09:51 - Anne (Host) I would not have realized that until you know I really started an S-Corp and I should have actually. Again, I needed to take a look at the numbers.  09:59 - Danielle (Guest) Here's the deal when you do have those lean months, it doesn't come as such a shock no-transcript Because if you wait, that is going to be a surprise likely to you where you're not really expecting it. And then you get into a really unfortunate situation where this inconsistent income has caused an inconsistent pattern in how you're paying yourself and how you're putting money to the side. So make sure that when you're paying yourself you're also making sure to take care of your tax liabilities.  11:01 - Anne (Host) Yes, Excellent idea. And another thing, as I look at you here in your brand new, shiny, sparkly studio, right and we've talked about this so many times before is having that financial cushion, right, Having that emergency fund. But I think honestly, like, if you can have more than just that emergency fund, which doesn't get touched under the extreme circumstances of an emergency, but consider having another fund which is, you know, just a one to three cushion fund, right, Right that you have to live in the event that you have a slow month, right, and having that separate fund where you feel secure and confident that you can take from that fund and you're not dipping into that emergency fund. Because I always feel guilty if I'm dipping into my emergency fund. Well, number one, because my emergency fund is heavily invested in my high-yield savings account, which doesn't mean that you can't have a one to three-month cushion also sitting in a high-yield savings account, and so I always feel like, oh, I don't want to touch that because I want to keep earning interest on the greatest amount of money possible Sure yeah.  12:06 And so that's my emergency fund, but also maybe having a separate fund just for, oh, times are lean this month and you know, and I'm going to say, maybe, in order to give me better mental health, I do need a Starbucks today or I do need a pair of earrings today. But I'm going to be a caution. I'm going to caution people to not necessarily go out and shop your, your financial worries away, because you know, that's me. I've definitely been in that trap where, oh, I just need to feel better. Let me go out and buy some new clothes, yeah, or a new lipstick, yeah.  12:41 I think try not to do that. But you know, I think that one to three month other fund that you have will help you to pay the bills.  12:47 - Danielle (Guest) Absolutely. And so then you can use sort of a system where you're making sure that when things are inconsistent and times are a little bit leaner and you're not making as much money, you know what your baseline, your core base expenses are. And then, when things are going really well and you're making a lot more money and you had a really great month, you put some of that money to the side in that cushion fund that's not your emergency fund and when things are low, you use that cushion fund to make sure that you're staying afloat. I like that sort of cycle of making sure that you are taking care of yourself. It's not necessarily feast or famine when things are going really well.  13:28 You have already looked ahead and taken care of yourself, because you know that this is a cyclical business, this is inconsistent. It's an inconsistent income kind of business and you know that one day you're going to need to use the money that you are currently making. Don't just spend everything that you're making. Put it to the side so that when it is inconsistent and when it is a slower month, you're pulling from the times when you had a really great month to keep yourself, you know, in balance. And that's, I think, the way to do it is you should look at this month or any given month, as am I taking care of me now, or am I taking care of me now and me in the future? But always make sure that you are doing that delicate balance.  14:16 - Anne (Host) Speaking of, you know, setting aside money for taxes, and setting aside, you know, that money. Don't forget about retirement guys. Don't forget about a retirement fund. Please don't forget about retirement. One thing I want to say is that and I'm not a money girl, right, or I never thought of myself as a money girl, but can I just tell you, the software companies are making it easier and easier. Like your credit cards are now categorizing your spending, right, Because, of course, they want you to use the credit card more. So they're going to categorize it and you can find out where your expenses are going, and if you use the credit card, you can get 3% back. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. They want to encourage credit card spending, but also you can use that as a method for really finding out where is all your money going.  14:57 Quickbooks like I never thought. Like my QuickBooks Online. Like you can generate a report literally a report in a matter of seconds, Whereas before it used to be really difficult, man, If you were doing like spreadsheets. And I don't know, Danielle, I can't remember what product you use, but I mean I need something simple, something that does the work for me. Some people are really hardcore and go right into the Excel spreadsheet and that's how they track their budget. But, like for me, I just generate, I flip, I generate a report really quickly in QuickBooks and it tells me, oh my gosh, I spent so much money this month on my expenses going out versus what was coming in, and so I can really then make an educated and strategized decision based upon those reports.  15:39 And I can do, I can generate those reports at the flick of a button. And even if I hate finances right which I know a lot of people don't like to look at their, their money yeah, it's again one of those things. This is your business and it is something that, if you're not looking at it, pay somebody else to do it, like my accountant. Then talk with your accountant and say, hey, look, where's all my money going. Or I found that I had a slow month. And then have that weekly meeting or that monthly meeting that says here, OK, they can break it down for you and say, look, you're, they can generate the reports and they say, look, here's what you're spending on lipstick and or here's what you're spending on restaurants going out, and here's where you can maybe potentially save money. Or think about taking this money that you have left over and putting it into this type of an investment account.  16:23 - Danielle (Guest) This money that you have left over and putting it into this type of an investment account and taking care of future you.  16:29 So you've got sort of the shorter term future you of this one to three months cushion for when times are lean. You've got your emergency fund, which usually I say you know, six to eight months I say closer to for me, yeah, six to eight months, which is a pretty big emergency fund, but that's because we're self-employed and so I want to have a pretty good cushion, or the longer term fund being your retirement. And there are ways, depending on how you have it set up, where, if you're investing in your retirement account, that helps you in tax time because it might lower the amount that you are paying on your taxes.  17:05 So it is always forward looking. It's looking at what's happening today and it's looking at what would be happening in the shorter term future or longer term future. And how can you use the windfall that you have or maybe are not experiencing now? How can you use that to keep you afloat, you know, with your core base expenses. But it really is again going back to do. You know what those core base expenses are Right, and how can you stay, you know, level with them. And if you need to dip into the bank of you, then you can do that with no shame and no problem, knowing that you've already done the work to take care of yourself.  17:44 - Anne (Host) From a girl that's a little less of a money girl to a girl who is a money girl. One thing that always sneaks up on me are those antics annual fees or the recurring right subscriptions or that come up once a year. Because I went from let's not do it every month, let's save and let's do yearly subscriptions, but every once in a while, if I'm not paying attention, that yearly subscription will come up and it'll be taken out of my account and I'll be like whoa, how do you do you prepare yourself? I do For those things. So talk about how you prepare you know some of those things.  18:18 - Danielle (Guest) you know we use the word like surprise expenses, when, like it's kind of like these are super noble things, like yeah, I signed up for that credit card that has that high annual fee.  18:27 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It was me.  18:28 - Danielle (Guest) It wasn't like some, somebody impersonating me Right large expense, that is, a knowable expense. I typically will put a calendar alert in a month in advance so that I can remind myself that this is coming. For example, my credit cards. I have the American Express Platinum card, I have the American Express Gold card and they have very high annual fees and for some reason I applied for them around the same time of the year and different years. So they, the annual fees, they come and they hit like roughly, like right, one after the other and I always think to myself Danielle, what did you do?  19:05 Why did you do that? Why did you do that? Why did what were you doing in December that you really needed a new credit? Why did you do that right in the same time. And that's, you know, my own personal journey. But I know that it's coming, so I can prepare either a little bit every single month to make sure I'm ready for that, yeah, or because I've given myself that calendar alert saying hey, danielle, just so you know this is coming up next month, I'm already mentally and financially prepared that that hit is about to happen. Most of those, you know, those subscriptions, those annual subscriptions, those are things that are knowable expenses, albeit big expenses. So your calendar is your very best friend. Give yourself the heads up and know that it's coming.  19:49 - Anne (Host) I agree I live by my calendar anyway for a day-to-day schedule of things that I'm doing. And I think if you have a calendar, a financial calendar, I mean my goodness. I mean you could make an easy financial calendar. I use Google Calendar for everything and they're color-coded when do I have coaching sessions? When do I have monthly workouts coming up, when do I have all of these things, holidays and that sort of thing, so you could have a financial calendar that has all of your subscription renewals and or your monthly costs, like those base costs that we talked about, so that you're prepared.  20:25 This month I'm going to plan on spending this amount of money. And also, again, it's one of those things that if you have an accounting software that can be generated in an accounting software easily, your monthly budget, absolutely, and you know it's something that you need to like. And again, I'm talking from a girl. I'm not a money girl, but I have to force myself to do that and take a hard look at what's going out every month and how can I cut? And I recently just said, ok, how can I trim the budget in my company, because I had been like, oh, let me try this software. I'm a big risk taker Danielle, and we talk about this thing, I hoard software too.  21:04 Yeah, I buy software subscriptions, I try things out and then I forget about them sometimes right.  21:10 I was like, oh, I haven't used it. I tried that out, I paid for the subscription, I forgot about it. So every once in a while I have to revisit what am I putting my money into, and has it given me a return on my investment? And if not, I need to trim the fat. And so I really I did that more recently so that I could have money to invest in something different.  21:31 So again I had, and I invest in in people who who work for me, and again I wanted to invest in some additional advertising, and so I needed to get that money from somewhere Right. So I had to kind of figure out where can I consolidate my expenses Right? Can I get, now that you know I've evolved in my business so many years, maybe I don't need this particular, I don't need as much social media, maybe I don't need, you know, that monthly subscription to this particular? You know, pay to play. Am I really using this pay to play?  22:07 And again, you know, figure out what am I? Where's my money coming in? Where am I making the most of my money? And do I want to reinvest my money coming in into that, into getting more of that, or do I want to reinvest my money coming in into that, into getting more of that, or do I want to diversify and maybe explore another genre of voiceover, or I want to get more voiceover work in this particular genre? What's it going to take for me to get there? So I think, really again taking a look at the money, and if you hate looking at money, I suggest, even if you hate looking at money, it's something that you got to do. Consider it an education in running your own business.  22:40 - Danielle (Guest) I would consider, if you hate looking at money, that you really need to look at money.  22:46 - Anne (Host) If you don't like it, then you really need to do it If you don't like it, that's a flag.  22:50 - Danielle (Guest) That's a flag, that's a flag. Run toward it, run toward it.  22:55 - Anne (Host) I love it.  22:55 - Danielle (Guest) I was told by my financial advisor to have money dates with myself, and I think what you're talking about would be a really great thing to do twice a year of these sinking funds, these mini emergency fund or emergency fund, so that you know where you need to divert more of your money in the good months, in the months where you're making so much more money than you planned for. That's really a great thing to do and I would say once or twice a year to reevaluate that, because maybe your one to three month or your short term emergency fund, let's say, is about a couple thousand dollars under. So you know. Ok, you know what. Why don't I put my money and my focus on beefing that up so that when we have these inconsistent months or when we have lower months, I know that I'm good. You won't know until you take the time to really look at it. So give yourself the money date of taking a real look at your money and knowing your numbers about what is your core expenses, what can you maybe trim or what can you press pause on, and then what can you run toward when it's time and when you have the money for it.  24:18 I love the idea of sinking funds. You have a fund specifically for your education, for your just slower months, for things that you do when you book that really big job and maybe you want to take yourself on a nice you know nice dinner or something like that like ways to celebrate. You can have multiple of these sinking funds. That's what something like that, like ways to celebrate. You can have multiple of these, these sinking funds. That's what I like about some of these online accounts where you can have a bank account that will give you an unlimited number of smaller, you know, virtual accounts where you can just put that money to the side I love that that's great.  24:52 - Anne (Host) It's a really great hack that I use.  24:54 That's a new concept and and what I like.  24:57 What I like about how you're talking and you're phrasing this whole conversation is you're talking about funds, right, you're talking about fund accounts, yeah, versus when, when and I don't know if this is just me and my age, but, like whenever I was talked about, well, you need to set up a budget that had a negative connotation and that meant that I wasn't making the money that I should have been making, or I was. You know what I mean? I was somehow lacking in whatever, mostly in money, right, I was lacking in money and the ability to either manage my money or whatever it was, but it had a negative connotation and I think that we need to reframe that whole concept. Again, if we talk about, like, money blocks, right, it could be a form of a money block and, in reality, the term budget, you can rephrase it to say you know, your money funds or your fund account it's giving you more of like a permission to celebrate it because you are strategizing, you are creating a future with a purpose, yes, and your purpose is focused, strategized and smart.  26:03 - Danielle (Guest) Absolutely, and it's purposeful. It's what you've decided that you're going to do. So budgeting for me, when I think about it, it's what am I deciding that I'm going to be spending my money on and this money is allocated towards that thing that I already decided. If you take away the concept that a budget is restricting you, it's not restricting you. It's where you have already pre-purposed and pre-determined where your money is going to go, and then you just do as you set out. It gives you freedom and it puts you in the driver's seat. You decided that you want to spend your money on the Starbucks or your whatever, and isn't that what we?  26:44 - Anne (Host) yeah, Exactly, Isn't that what we decided? Bosses right, we are in the driver's seat. We are the boss Totally, and you know you need to be the boss of all aspects of this business. And I think, if you really take a look at your budgets and or your funding accounts and I love what you just said about the virtual accounts there, Danielle that's a concept that I actually was not aware of, so now I'm going to be researching that because I love that, I love being able to it's like my content buckets for social media, right? This?  27:15 is going to be my fund buckets for Ann's Lipstick, no, for my business. Right For that Starbucks account. I've got money in it. So I think that really gives us a much clearer strategy and purpose when really looking at our business. And again, you always want to go forward and move forward in your business and this is one way that you guys can get there Totally.  27:38 - Danielle (Guest) You are in the driver's seat. These are not things happening to you. You can make the decision as to where you spend your money when it comes, and if you need to dip into the bank of you so that you future you is taken care of, because the you of today did the work to make sure that they were taking care of future. You Love that. That's. What I love about being an entrepreneur is that I'm taking responsibility for myself and taking care of responsibility of myself today and also future me, by putting money into the spending buckets or to the sinking funds, to my retirement account, to my emergency fund, and then I am making these financial decisions with me in mind, because that's my job is to take care of myself and also the people that are around me that I touch with my business, with my life, with my purpose.  28:32 - Anne (Host) And with that lovely words of wisdom, danielle, I'm going to thank you so much. What a great conversation. Yeah, this is a great conversation. Love it, love it, love it. Bosses, I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and network like the money boss that Danielle is. I absolutely love it. I love, love, loved our conversation. Thank you again, bosses. Have an amazing week and we will see you next week. Bye.  28:58 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

BOSS Anne Ganguzza is joined by Lau Lapides for a discussion on the most fundamental skill for a successful voice actor: storytelling. From breaking out of a predictable melody to using props and sensory cues, Anne and Lau provide actionable tips and acting techniques to help you bring authenticity, emotion, and life to every script.

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by Tom Dheere to tackle a topic many voice actors fear most: marketing. In this episode, they break down the essential difference between direct marketing (you go to them) and indirect marketing (they come to you). The hosts discuss how to make both strategies work for you, offering a powerful, actionable roadmap for building a sustainable voiceover business. 00:01 - Anne (Host) Hey boss listeners. Are you ready to turn your voiceover career goals into achievements? With my personalized coaching and demo production, I'm here to help you reach new milestones. You know you're already part of a boss community that strives for the very best. Let's elevate that. Your success is my next project. Find out more at anneganguzza.com.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:44 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Real Boss series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with Mr Tom Dheere. Hello, hello, hello, the Real Boss, Tom Dheere.  00:56 - Tom (Guest) Hi, I'm seeing the light ring in my glasses. I'm going to change. I want to change these.  01:01 - Anne (Host) Wait, I thought you said I'm seeing the light.  01:03 - Tom (Guest) I'm seeing the light. Well, yeah, no, but the light was seeing me and my glasses, so I'm switching over. I have, like different pairs of glasses for where I'm at.  01:11 - Anne (Host) No, really. So like these are better. I hear that. I hear that Yours are part of a marketing strategy.  01:18 - Tom (Guest) Mine are purely because my eyeballs are decomposing. I can hear them.  01:22 - Anne (Host) But me too, though, I need them as well, and I figure I might as well make them part of a marketing strategy. And speaking of marketing, yes. Great segue, isn't it? I think it's one of the most feared things for any voice actor is to actually think and do marketing, and so it's a great topic to talk about, because, I mean, we could talk like multiple podcasts about it, but let's talk about marketing Indirect marketing, direct marketing. They're both important.  01:49 - Tom (Guest) Yes, absolutely.  01:50 - Anne (Host) Let's distinguish the difference.  01:52 - Tom (Guest) Right, and this is the thing that when most people come into the voiceover industry, they think and their instinct is correct, so I need to market myself. What does that mean? For most people, it's slamming into social media sideways and talking about what they had for breakfast, or it most often means cold calls and cold emails. Now, you can clearly lump all of that stuff together into marketing, but there's a lot more to it. It's a lot more nuanced than that.  02:18 - Anne (Host) You say the word cold calls and I think people go cold. I know they do. They're like oh no cold calls now.  02:25 - Tom (Guest) So the way I talk about it is that there is direct marketing and then there is indirect marketing, also known as active marketing or passive marketing. So direct or active marketing is when you are seeking out specific potential clients and you are basically grabbing them by the lapels and saying, hey, you give me money to say stuff out loud.  02:48 - Anne (Host) Here I am. Hello, this is me.  02:50 - Tom (Guest) Hello, right Now that's a cold call, that is a cold email. There's also follow-up emails and getting your seven touches.  02:57 - Anne (Host) And that's direct, because it's direct contact with a potential client.  03:01 - Tom (Guest) Exactly. And then there is indirect marketing, which is where you're kind of like doing your thing over here in hopes that people or robots will notice you Right and come to you Right. So, for example, working on search engine optimization on your website, that's a form of indirect marketing or passive marketing, because if somebody's searching for you, hopefully your website or your content will rank higher on Google, bing, yahoo and they'll be like, hey, who's this person? And then they reach out to you Right.  03:30 - Anne (Host) Or they're seeing you on social media.  03:32 - Tom (Guest) Social media, exactly, is another perfect example of indirect marketing. So that's where you're kind of like demonstrating your value, your progress, your humanity as a voice actor and a person, in hopes that it will get voice seekers' attention and be engaged with your content and hopefully you'll stay top of mind for future projects.  03:50 - Anne (Host) An easy I would say an easy way of thinking about it is direct marketing. You go to them In direct marketing. They're coming to you.  03:58 - Tom (Guest) Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right.  04:00 - Anne (Host) I think, equally terrifying for voice actors yes, yes, I think that it's great that we made the distinction now between the two.  04:09 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) And.  04:09 - Anne (Host) I think the one that really causes people probably the most terror is the direct marketing part of it, because they have to reach out to someone who is a complete stranger to them and that we are a complete stranger to them and they're a complete stranger to us. And so direct marketing, I think, requires, I think, a little more knowledge, so it makes it a little less scary.  04:29 - Tom (Guest) I think so too.  04:36 - Anne (Host) That's the way I see it, and what I try to explain to a lot of my students who talk about marketing and their fear of marketing is, of course, all the indirect methods, which they're probably much more apt to do, because they can create a blog, they can go on social media, they can create a video, they can do things like that, and that to them, I think, is more of a concrete path than oh my God, I got to go find someone. Who do I reach out to, what do I say and how does that work? And so I think the first distinction that I want to make with direct marketing is to make it less terrifying. Is that I want to make with direct marketing is to make it less terrifying is just an understanding that people have needs. How many times can I bring up the Chanel lipstick, right?  05:09 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) How many times it's a great example.  05:10 - Anne (Host) I just keep going back to it where here's the Chanel lipstick. It is part of my brand and I want to work with this company, chanel, and so ultimately, they don't know who I am. I mean, I kind of know who they are, but I don't know exactly who I should contact. And so when does Chanel have a need for voiceover? Right, when they have a campaign, right when they have a campaign and when maybe they have a voiceover and they want to replace that voice, and so it's very much based on need and when they need voiceover, a voiceover.  05:41 It's not that. Oh, I'm going to reach out and I never heard back and therefore that's a bad lead or it didn't work or I'm done. I failed. You cannot think that, guys, because it's all on a timely basis, so when I need a new lipstick, I'm not constantly searching for a new lipstick, but when I need one, then if an email comes my way or a social media ad comes my way talking about a new shade of red, I'll be like, oh, I need that, let me look into it.  06:10 And that's the same thing that, as a voice actor, you need to understand about direct marketing.  06:14 - Tom (Guest) Right, put it another way. And what are the client's pain points? How can you cure what ails them? How can you solve their problems? So I'm going to take your Chanel lipstick example and I'm going to continue it. So let's put it in voiceover terms Chanel wants to advertise that lipstick. So they want to make advertisements of some sort. It could be print, it could be digital, it could be TV, radio streaming or whatever. Right, chanel?  06:42 - Anne (Host) Look to me, Chanel. I talk about you all the time. I'm just saying In my podcast Please make Anne a compensated endorser for your lovely products.  06:51 - Tom (Guest) So Chanel usually would have to hire a marketing agency or an ad firm or something like that to come up with whatever. The concept would be. Okay, well, this is Chanel, it's this type of lipstick, we're targeting this type of audience, or they?  07:04 have it in-house or they have it in-house and they'll say, okay, well, our demographic is women of this particular age range.  07:19 Okay, so we need to make sure that the content and context of the advertisement is making sure that we're targeting that particular demographic.  07:22 It needs to appeal to them on a visual or an auditory level or some other combination of that. Maybe we need to get an influencer in here or a celebrity or something like that, but we still need a voice actor to do whatever the radio or streaming or TV is. So they come up with a concept, they write the script. Now they need to get a production company to turn this script into reality and then the production company now this is where they have choices. They can go to a casting director and a casting director and the casting director can then reach out to agents and managers to find the voice actors. They can post that casting notice on a casting site like a Voice 123 or a VO Planet or a Badalgo, or they can have their own roster of voice actors that every time a casting notice comes up, they go through their own list of voice actors. That every time a casting notice comes up, they go through their own list of voice actors and then send the casting notices out to the appropriate voice actors to collect auditions right.  08:12 - Anne (Host) Before you continue, I'm going to intercept and say all right, let's talk about how often do they need this right? That is something that is the big unknown right. How often are they needing a new campaign? And that is something that I think is the most ambiguous, maybe, to the voice actor, because we don't know we don't work for the company, we don't know how often they need these new ads. So what I don't want people to expect, and I think what a lot of people do expect, is like well, I reached out to them and they don't want me. Well, they don't have a need for you Yet. Yeah, and I don't think it's appropriate to think that any one company needs a voice actor 24-7.  08:48 - Tom (Guest) Unless you're Joseph Riano.  08:50 - Anne (Host) But that's a different genre, right. That's promo, that's a different genre, that's promo and that's actually a network right.  08:55 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Right.  08:55 - Anne (Host) That, yeah, you're required to do these ads because things change all the time. Chanel lipstick how often are they coming up with new colors? How often are they coming up with new colors? There's seasons, right? How often are they coming up with new lipsticks? Right? That is not necessarily a daily. Companies don't come out with new products every single day, so therefore they may not have a need. So please keep that in mind, guys, because I think a lot of people get discouraged when they don't hear back. Marketing is the long haul. It's a marathon, not a sprint.  09:21 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, getting auditions from your agents and managers and getting auditions from online casting sites. Those are short term. There's an audition right now. You audition for it right now Because they've had a need Right. Using direct and indirect marketing strategies is a long-term investment in developing relationships with clients Big distinction. A lot of people argue oh, agents are better than this and this is better than that, and none of that is true.  09:46 All of it's extremely subjective, based on the genres of voiceover that you want to do and the marketing methods and comfort level that you have with technology and interpersonal stuff. Like some people will be like I'll make cold calls all day. I love doing it. And some people are like I'm terrified of talking to people. I will only post stuff on social media and I will only talk about in a very narrow way and all of that is fine. But to Anne's point. Well, first off, we're thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about us.  10:13 - Anne (Host) Oh my God, yes, amen, amen. That is so very true, because we want to be hired by them.  10:19 - Tom (Guest) Right, of course, and to Anne's point, they don't need any voiceover for a product or service or brand at this moment in time, and when they do, it may not necessarily be you and a lot of the times they don't have any control over the product or service or brand and what the demands there are from the end client or the ad agency or the marketing firm or the campaign that dictates the quality and quantity of the demographics of the voice actors that they're needed for that particular campaign. Right, and with a campaign that dictates the quality and quantity of the demographics of the voice actors that they're needed for that particular campaign.  10:48 - Anne (Host) Right, and with a campaign, typically they want to have, like in any kind of a brand, consistency right. Typically, if there's a product and you're the voice of that product or that brand, it typically is something that will be recurring for a certain amount of time. It's not like today's ad is going to feature my voice and tomorrow it's going to feature somebody else's voice. They want to work in a little bit of consistency for that brand and that includes the voice. So understand that they're not having a need for a new voice actor every single time they're airing the ad or putting it out there on social media. That may be.  11:19 You are a voice for a campaign which runs for a certain length of time, which is why we base our rates especially when it's broadcast right on where it's being played and for how long Because we are a voice for that particular time, for that particular campaign. Now, if they want to extend that right, they will pay to extend that or they'll find a new voice if they're looking for that.  11:42 - Tom (Guest) Right, we love the rebuys where you narrate something and it's good for a certain period. I got that phone call two weeks ago. I did a social media ad and for a six month term, and they literally called me on the phone. They're like, hey, they want to do it again, bill us, yeah, and I just build them. And they're like, oh, and we have two more spots. That's the wonderful part.  11:59 - Anne (Host) But the thing is is like for that particular brand, right Voice actors. If you're going to reach out to that same company and say, hey, I'm a voice actor, hire me. Well, they've got Tom right For reasons within the campaign. If his voice is working and that's what they want, they're going to continue to have Tom. So don't take it personally, don't beat Tom up.  12:19 - Tom (Guest) Tom is like sorry not sorry, Sorry, not sorry Sorry not sorry, sorry, not sorry.  12:22 - Anne (Host) I think we just have sometimes a very narrow view of what it's like on the other side of the glass and to have that need and that desire to create a campaign with a voice, and so you have to be understanding of the way it works.  12:34 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, another point on that is that late last year a voice actor posted on Facebook an infographic that I want to say it was. An explainer video producer posted an infographic. They tracked the amount of hours that it takes to produce an explainer video, which obviously includes concept writing, storyboard, budget, legal department, music and all of that stuff, and the amount, the percentage that involved the voice actor, was 1.5%. Yeah, 1.5%. So often we as voice actors are an afterthought.  13:06 - Anne (Host) Yeah, we're the last part of the journey there.  13:08 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, and sometimes I'll just ask around the office, or their niece, who's a musical theater major, and they just give it to them and that's it.  13:15 - Anne (Host) But yes, obviously casting notices are posted everywhere all the time and it's so funny because I mean, when I'm doing oh, it's funny because I'm dabbling a little bit in fashion and when I'm creating videos, I mean my main thing is that I'm talking about the brand or I'm showcasing the brand, but a lot of times the videos don't even require the voice. Unless I'm directly talking about the brand, I can put music behind it. And it's funny because in my process of creating the video right for, let say, the brands that I'm working for the last thing I put in is the voice. It's the last thing I do, unless I'm doing a direct-to-camera like hey guys, this is an amazing product. Then it all happens together, right, and then the video editing happens and my voice is already there talking about it.  13:57 But a lot of times I'm not necessarily, or I'm doing a voiceover after the fact, and so, yeah, we become like the last part of the project, and so that's something to also be aware of. It's not that we're not important, we're very important, but you have to understand where in the chain of events that it happens. That's why people, when they cast, they want to cast typically like quickly, right, they want to find that voice and just put it into the video that's already been done, and then music and sound effects, because, again, like Tom you mentioned, we're typically the last part.  14:31 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, and from what I've noticed in my casting notices over the past decade or so is that the turnaround time for casting is usually about 48 hours, and then from the recording of it is probably another 48 hours. Sometimes it's even quicker than that. So usually that means if this project took six weeks or two months or whatever that means at most not. I'm not saying a week is spent on the voiceover, it's just that everything that needs to happen regarding the voiceover is probably a handful of hours within one week, and then that's it.  15:04 So the point is, bosses, is that if you are engaging in direct marketing strategies, like cold calls or emails, and you're doing your follow-up emails and reaching out on social media, like directly in sending the messages and stuff like that you have to manage your expectations. I was reading a study that since 2014, the return on cold calls and emails has dropped by 10% every year for the past 10 years. And guess what? 10% times 10 years equals 100%. So it doesn't mean they're not effective at all anymore. But now the expectation of them actually getting your email or answering your phone call and responding positively is between 1% and 3%. It is a very, very small percentage, which means also this is a numbers game.  15:49 - Anne (Host) Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, but it's not impossible.  15:52 - Tom (Guest) No, it's not impossible. You want to be smart about it.  15:55 - Anne (Host) Yeah, what I'm always telling people because I have a Boss Blast product and I know you also do a lot of educational courses on direct marketing. It's something that you need to understand. It's definitely a marathon, not a sprint, kind of a game, and the good thing about it is that once you do connect and once you're in front of the eyes of someone who has the power to hire you and award you the gig, typically you want to stay top of mind, and that's when you're talking about marketing. Staying top of mind is always a good thing. You're talking about marketing. Staying top of mind is always a good thing. That's when they'll call you and say, hey, we want to extend this for another 13 weeks or we want to extend this again. So once you hook them, hopefully you keep them, and that's where the challenge is.  16:36 You know auditions. You know there's a need already. You audition and they cast because they're at that stage in the project where that's what they need. Right, they need that voice. But when you're direct marketing and you're reaching out, they may not have that need right away. They might think about you and say, oh okay, I like that voice. I don't have a need for her right now, but maybe let me put her to the side and let's when another campaign comes up that I think she's good for and I get that all the time when I'm on a few different rosters They'll contact me directly and say, hey look, I think you'd be a perfect voice for this campaign. Can you send me an audition? And typically, boom, that's good because it's a cold lead that turned into a warm lead and that is nice because I didn't have to really do much effort because I'm on his radar.  17:18 So when you're direct marketing, tom, the other important thing to understand is not only how it works right and understand and the expectations. It is how do you know who to contact right? And how do you contact them without being spammed? Because, guess what? We all get spam every single day. I get phone calls still that I don't pick up the phone. I get emails that are scammers, that are just junk email I don't even bother to look at. I see the subject line and I'm like nope, so I'm not going to be spamming. In today's world where it is getting increasingly hard. How do you do it right? That's the question, that's the golden question, right? How do you do it? How do you get their attention?  17:55 - Tom (Guest) Well, I've learned a couple of just some just brief bullet pointy bits of advice is be concise, be brief, be professional, but be you as much as you can If you have a very formal subject line or a very prim and proper paragraph. Hi, my name is this, I do this, I do that, I can do this, and every sentence starts with the word I Delete Immediate turn off.  18:21 - Anne (Host) It's about how you can help the company.  18:23 - Tom (Guest) Yes, it's how you can bring value to their company. It's not about you Solve their pain point. Exactly, solve the pain point. What can you do for them? But don't make it I, I, I Make it about. You need this, you need this. Your problem is this your problem can be solved with my services as a voice actor, but at the same time, be you as much as you can be you, be as personable as you can. Funny goes a long way and showing that you know about them.  18:54 - Anne (Host) Yes, because it becomes like these are two strangers meeting in the night, right? So what makes that meeting more agreeable? Well, if I have done my homework, it's kind of like God the olden days, tom, when I used to go on interviews for like corporate jobs. Right, you wouldn't go into a corporate interview for a job and not know anything about the company that you're applying to.  19:15 Right, I mean that was the biggest no-no was no. You've got to understand what does the company make, what are the products that it makes and what is it that is attracting you to this company? So if you can offer some insight into their company and why it is that you feel it would be a beneficial partnership, then definitely reaching out with how you can solve their pain point and showing that you're interested in them and not just like I, I, I and I'm a great voice actor and listen to my talent. It's not about you at all. It's about how you can help them right to sell their product or to sell their brand.  19:48 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, your job is a problem solver. Yeah, don't treat them like a cash register and your email is a crowbar.  19:54 - Anne (Host) Oh, I like that, that visual.  19:57 - Tom (Guest) You know he's kind of like give me the money to say the things have you said that before?  20:00 - Anne (Host) Did you just grab that from there? That was great.  20:02 - Tom (Guest) I've said it in various permutations of that over the years. But yeah, yeah, I've also said we try to treat voice seekers like ATMs. Yeah, because we only see them as these machines that can give us money. Yeah, absolutely. These are people that have their own needs and challenges.  20:17 They are human beings that have their own struggles creative, logistical, financial, cultural struggles. And if voiceover is 1.5% of their thought processes in any given project, 5% of their thought processes in any given project, you want that 1.5% to be maybe the easiest and most entertaining, 1.5% to make everything a little bit easier.  20:38 - Anne (Host) Don't give them homework. That's what I always say. Don't give them homework, Don't make them try to research you. Don't give them homework. Just be there to let them know that you can help them and that you have a genuine interest in their company, in their product, in wanting to serve them and to help them, to make their jobs easier. Really, I think that's the point, and anybody that's worked in the corporate world knows that they want their job to be easier. They're working for someone, typically, and they have a lot on their plate. They don't want to be bogged down by, oh my God, a big, lengthy email that is going on and on and on and self-serving.  21:14 I know that when I get emails and I like to talk a lot. I think that's the problem, Tom. As voice actors, we like to talk right, and sometimes that transcribes right into our emails. I used to write these emails that were like paragraphs, paragraphs. Nobody has time for that and I would love to write paragraphs of an email and I would spend so much time.  21:32 I remember when I broke down what I did in my corporate job. I spent the majority of my time writing customer service emails and they were long emails and the funny thing is, I would get offended if people three quarters of the way down, if I put an important fact and then somebody wrote me back and then asked me a question about that fact, I'd be like how could you not have read that email? I spent so much time on it Because people don't have the capacity right to read a big, long, horribly boring email and also you are encroaching upon their time. I get so many emails a day, Tom, we've talked about this before. I have like a million some odd unread emails in my Gmail on purpose, because I want to see the marketing. I want to see the marketing that people are doing, and you just have to understand that you're taking up a part of their day, and so I think you need to like, deserve that.  22:18 And you need to prove that you're worthy of that 1.5% of their time. And so that means, if they don't want to hear from you again, if you've presented yourself in a way where they don't have a need for you, or maybe you I don't know, maybe you're all self-serving and they're like I don't need this they need to have a way to not get those emails from you ever, ever again. So there are legal ramifications of you reaching out to somebody unsolicited, typically in any direct marketing. That is the next thing that I want to bring up.  22:46 Tom, in any direct marketing you have to have permission to send an email. And if you don't necessarily have direct permission, you have to offer them a way to opt out of the emails that you send to them. And that includes, when you send that cold email, something at the bottom that says if you would like to unsubscribe to these emails, give them a way to opt out of that. And you also must provide and this is just good business measure you have to provide legally an address of your company on your emails. So when you send those emails out, you have to give them a way to opt out of the emails and you have to give them your business address.  23:23 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely, because you don't want the internet to give you the ban. Hammer if you're sending out hundreds or thousands of these emails at the same time. Manhammer if you're sending out hundreds or thousands of these emails at the same time. So I've heard recently that the era of spray and pray is over, but it's not just for all the marketing value pain points provide value stuff, but it's also because of the internet, as we as a people has just had it with all of these spammy carbon copy templaty desperate has just had it with all of these spammy carbon copy templaty. Desperate, aggressive, obnoxious, self-aggrandizing emails that we're getting over and over again, because we can't tell what's real and what's fake anymore when the phone rings or when an email comes in or when we see a social media post. So people are cracking down and being like we have no tolerance for this. I would rather send less emails that have more value than more emails that have more value than more emails that have value, and hope for the occasional hit.  24:13 - Anne (Host) And again, if you are sending out mass emails and that's a whole nother thing with direct marketing, not many people have the provision to send out thousands of emails at one time because most, unless you're paying for that service, which I do for the boss blast I pay for that service. I am able to send out lots of emails at a time. It's done through a server which doesn't do it all at once. And also the people that I'm sending it to have already opted in to me, marketing to them, and still, at the very least, I have to put. Here's a way to opt out and here's my business address and they only allow from my domain, the, and they only allow from my domain, the VO Boss domain. So anybody that buys a Boss Blast, you are actually getting a list that has already opted in to be marketed to and they have all the legal rights to opt out if they want.  24:58 Most people don't, because they've opted in for a reason, but it's something that I would say most voice actors can't afford because you typically pay by the contact. So my server, which is ActiveCampaign, I pay by the contact, so contact. So my server, which is ActiveCampaign, I pay by the contact. So I have a few hundred thousand contacts that I pay for in order to be able to send emails out to that, and that's not something necessarily that every voice actor has the budget to do, which is why I offered the Boss Blast.  25:22 And this isn't all just about the Boss Blast, but it's anytime you're talking about doing direct mail, quality over quantity unless you have the provision to send out quantity, which is something that I pay thousands of dollars for, and I also make sure I got all the legal ramifications for people to opt out if they need to. But you need to do the same thing on a smaller scale, and direct marketing, I feel, is one of the methods of marketing that needs to be implemented so that in combination with indirect marketing. And you've got to do it. Gosh Tom, how much percentage of your time would you say? I would say 80%, if not a little bit more when things are lean.  25:58 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, when things are slow I immediately go to market, absolutely. But when things are busy, I have learned also to keep doing my marketing. So there, aren't as many slow periods.  26:09 So, yes, direct marketing can and should be part of a balanced breakfast. That is, every voice actor. If you can get quality representation audition through your agents and managers, if you understand how to feed the algorithms of online casting sites, use them to keep the flow of auditions coming in. Direct marketing with thoughtful, value-driven emails. Indirect marketing with thoughtful, value-driven emails. Indirect marketing with thoughtful value-driven blog posts, blog entries and social media posts. You should be doing, ideally, some combination of all of these as often as you can to maximize your opportunities to get the voiceover auditions that you desire.  26:47 - Anne (Host) And always be cultivating your next client, even if you're super busy. I think that's the most important thing that I've learned over the many years that I've been in the business here is always be cultivating your next client, because your clients, even if you've had them for years and years and years, they're never guaranteed. And the best in the business will say the same. So good conversation, Tom. I think we could talk about marketing in 500 more episodes.  27:10 But I think this is a great start guys to understand that it is a necessary evil and it's not scary. It's really not scary. You need to embrace the challenge that is marketing and, again, I like to look at everything as a challenge. That's what gives me joy in my business and also one of the reasons why I did create the VL Boss Blast was because I didn't have a ton of time to do the indirect marketing, although I do that a lot too. So everybody needs a balanced breakfast of both indirect and direct marketing. And, tom, thank you again for always being such a golden nugget of wisdom in my podcast.  27:42 - Tom (Guest) Thank you, I love it.  27:44 - Anne (Host) I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. Yes, you too can be a boss, a real boss and find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next time. Bye.  27:59 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

BOSSes, get ready for an electrifying conversation with a true entertainment icon. In this episode of the VO Boss Podcast, Anne Ganguzza is joined by the legendary Rolonda Watts, an Emmy-winning, talk show host, actress, and award-winning voice actor. Rolonda's career is a masterclass in professional reinvention. From her groundbreaking syndicated talk show, The Rolonda Show, to her powerful voice acting work on Professor Wiseman in Curious George and her on-screen roles in Mind Your Business and Survival of the Thickest, she embodies the art of pivoting with purpose. The hosts discuss how her journey from journalism to entertainment shaped her, why listening is the most important tool for any communicator, and the life philosophies that have guided her to become a true BOSS.   00:01 - Anne (Host) Hey, bosses, Anne Ganguzza, you know your journey in voiceover is not just about landing gigs. It's about growing both personally and professionally. At Anne Ganguzza Voice Productions, I focus on coaching and demo production that nurtures your voice and your confidence. Let's grow together. Visit Anneganguzza.com to find out more. 00:48 Visit anganguza, hey. Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss Podcast. I'mGanguzzayour host, Anne Ganguza, and I have something amazing for you 00:53 , bosses, today.  00:55 Today's guest is a one-woman entertainmentRolondaempire. She's done it all award-winning journalistRolonda daytime talk show host, actor, stand-up comic, best-selling author and one of the most recognizable voices in voiceover. You may have heard her as Professor Wiseman on Curious GeorgeRolonda in the Proud FamilyRolonda kung Fu Panda and now Invincible Fight Girl. She's also the annoucer and promo voice of the Sherry Show, where Sherry Shepard calls her a daytime talk show legend, which I happen to agree. Rolanda Watts is currently lighting up the screen on Bounce TV's hit comedy Mind your Business which I always get to see all the shorts on the Facebook feed, by the way where she plays Lucille, the sharp, sassy family matriarch that keeps it real with tough love and somehow I feel like that just echoes your character to a T. And she I feel like that just echoes your character to a T, and she's also appearing in the upcoming season of Netflix's Survival ofRolondathe Thickest, and was recently inducted into the prestigious Silver Circle by the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences at the 2024 Emmys, recognizing her lifetime of groundbreaking work in television.  02:04 Bosses, please welcome the incomparable Rolanda Watts, thank you. Thank you, rolanda. I have to tell you, you know I'm a big fan. I mean, I've said this to you before, but, bosses, I am the biggest fan of Rolanda. I actually know Rolanda from watching her on daytime talk TV, and that was a while ago. I want to say that daytime talk shows had just kind of come into like being, and you're one of the first that I watched and I just I just you, your personality, just everything about you was just amazing. It's just magnetic, and so I am so excited to be able to interview you, a talk show host. So I was like, oh man, how am I going to prepare to talk to you? But you are just so gracious and wonderful, and so that kind of gave me a little bit of of hope that I wouldn't completely flub it up today, rolanda.  03:05 - Rolonda (Guest) I don't think you would do that, Anne.  03:08 - Anne (Host) My goodness. So for the bosses, who you know don't really know your story and how you started off, I mean, my gosh, you're a media empire, so I don't even like we could have like five days worth of interviews with you, but it all started as broadcast journalism correct interviews with you, but it all started as broadcast journalism correct?  03:28 - Rolonda (Guest) Yes, Tell us about that. Well, I grew up in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and I, you know, I went to well, it's a long story about how I became an actor, but it all started with being 12 years old and going to Broadway with my family and seeing Guys and Doll and I was just like, oh my God, I love the stage and that's what I Anne do. So I went to Spelman and majored in theater arts and then there weren't a lot of roles when I got out of college. There just wasn't a track for folks who looked like me in the acting world, and so I fell in love with journalism, went to Columbia's Graduate School of Journalism and I was a news reporter and investigative anchor woman and producer for many years for New York WABC, WNBC Inside.  04:16 - Anne (Host) Edition, and that's impressive. And all of a sudden. Well, yeah, I was an investigative journalist. I mean you just said it like it came so easy. But I Anne imagine at the time. I mean you must have had to really work to get yourself in that space.  04:33 - Rolonda (Guest) Well, it was a crazy time because it was the 1980s. There weren't a lot of women in investigative news reporting, not in New York City, and so it was a groundbreaking time for women and and there was so much in the news, especially in New York, it was the big gang wars, the mob wars. You know, gotti hadn't even come into into play yet, so it was murder and mayhem. I was covering, wow and yeah, an inside edition. I was more murder and mayhem.  05:04 - Anne (Host) I remember that.  05:06 - Rolonda (Guest) Yeah. And then a man by the name of Roger King, who in heaven remains the number one selling as human being in television, asked me if I would like to do my very own syndicated talk show. So for four years I did the Rolanda show and then, when that was over let's loop back to the 12 year old who wore the subway token around her neck as a good luck charm. I said I'm not going to be on a porch when I'm 80 years old, going I could have, would have, should have. I am going to take my chances and go for my lifelong dream and make that 12 year old inside of me happy.  05:41 And I took off and went to Hollywood and that's where I became an actor and a writer and a producer and had my own production company and stumbled into voice acting and all of these things were part of what so many people call me the reinventionist. But I have had to reinvent my life for so many reasons and so many times. But I believe that isRolondamany different things that I've done and it's all around one thing and that's what we do as voice actors Good storytelling.  06:13 - Anne (Host) Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. And it's so interesting because before I had really come into like knowing you again, after you know, watching your talk show, and then knowing you as in voiceover yeah, the Anne and promo voice of the Sherry show, how interesting. Like you started to talk show, you're like a legend and talk show in my, in my brain. I'm like Rolanda, that's so awesome, like you. And now you kind of came full circle back to it a little bit Right, being the Anne and the promo voice.  06:46 And I was watching a clip of you the other day and Sherry was saying something. She was going on. She was gushing about you, which I get that. She was gushing about you and it was so interesting. She was giving you this credit about talking about your talk show and how wonderful you were and you turned it right. The conversation went right back to her about how wonderful she was and I was just blown away by how gracious that was and I just thought, well, no wonder. Well, no wonder you made such a great talk show host, such a great communicator, such a great actor and stand-up comedian and everything, because you just have this wonderful way of connecting with people.  07:29 - Rolonda (Guest) Well, you're awfully sweet, Anne. I'm going to receive all of that, but I thank you for that. You know it's, it's it. I, you know I was. I get blown away too, because Sherry does not hold back about what. What do the folks say? Giving me my flowers? And it's nice to receive them when you can smell them. You know, you know, know, it's really interesting because we did pave the way for sherry and and kelly and and drew and tamron all of them and I also know the hard work that those ladies are doing.  08:04 This job called talk is not easy. The politics that go on, the struggles day to day, the whole idea that the show is bigger than you as a human. It's very trying and you're out there by yourself. So I of course give her her flowers back because you can hand over the baton, but if the person can't run with it it really doesn't count. So to be able to see that continuum is a beautiful, beautiful thing.  08:29 And you know what's really funny is that Sherry's executive producer, who you see on the show all the time, John Murray. John was a college student when he first came to see my show and that's when he got the TV bug. He was bitten by the TV bug and so I would invite him back. In fact, one time I put him on the show so he could come and see how the producers worked and the behind the scenes working Skip to him becoming the executive producer of the Sherry show, and he said there's no other voice that we would have introduced, Sherry, and pass on the legacy than you. So it's really good. I mean, you got to be nice to kids, because they're coming up and they'll be your boss.  09:10 - Anne (Host) Right. Isn't that the truth?  09:12 - Rolonda (Guest) It is, it's like full circle.  09:13 - Anne (Host) You've, really you've done so much and you are.  09:15 I feel as though you've got. I feel like, look, I know how busy I am and I do a lot of stuff, but I feel like you, you're, you're doing it all. I mean you're, you're in that sitcom and I see, I'm thankful. I see the clips that you're posting on Facebook and it's so funny how the Rolanda that I know right, that I had a conversation with at VO Atlanta, I mean I feel like it is just so true to your character. Tell us a little bit about that role. I feel like you're just having the best time doing it.  09:44 - Rolonda (Guest) Oh my God, Lucille Williams, or Lucille is just one of the most wonderful characters. I mean, she's just great. And this coming weekend she's going to break off into her cougarlicious life, I know, oh wow.  10:05 She and her besties. They call themselves the silver sneakers. The nieces have convinced them that they need to give up the old guys, who just need a nurse and a purse, and go and get some of the young guys to go get some cool you know, be cougars and so we see how that works. But it's very, you know, it's fun to play her. She's sassy, she's the matriarch of the family, but at the same time we're writing storylines that give her a full bodied woman-ness. At this certain age, absolutely, absolutely.  10:42 - Anne (Host) I love that.  10:43 - Rolonda (Guest) But Mind your Business is a wonderful sitcom. It's one of those wonderful family sitcoms. It's produced by Bentley Evans, who did Jamie Foxx and Martin, so you're going to get that kind of zany funniness, but it's. But my character is lost her business almost during covid and calls on her family to come in and help save the business. And so she moves in with the family to save some money and all hell breaks loose. They need more of a referee than they do business partners. Now.  11:14 - Anne (Host) I love it. Now, if I'm correct, you're on season two, is that correct?  11:20 - Rolonda (Guest) We're on season two. That's right.  11:22 - Anne (Host) That's right Will there be more seasons. We certainly hope so. I hope so too.  11:25 - Rolonda (Guest) Listen, we're depending on you to watch and binge and love it. We're on Bounce TV or the Brown Sugar app and you Love it.  11:32 - Anne (Host) We're on Bounce TV or the Brown Sugar app and you can go look up where you can watch it. Yeah, I love that. Well, ok, so All right, we have to. Now we have to come to the voiceover aspect of things. So you actually have been doing voiceover since you came to LA, right?  11:46 - Rolonda (Guest) And well, you know what's so crazy, Anne, is that I was doing voiceover work, promos and Anne and voiceovers, and I didn't even know I was a voice actor, because I was doing all of that stuff for my show. I mean, had I known I was a voice actor at that time, I would have had a very different contract, trust me. But but it let meRolonda you know. But, just being a news reporter for so many years in New York City and on Inside Edition across the nation, people just knew my voice. And when, when I moved to LA and gave up the whole news and talk business to come out here and be an actor and a producer, nine months into the game the writers went on strike and instead of hosting an internationally syndicated talk show, I was on the picket line serving pizza to the striking writers.  12:39 And I was like what am I going to do? And I had to eat, I had to pay my rent, I mean what, what? And it was like I'm not going back to news, so what am I going to do? And I remembered that I used to call 411 back when you used to get information and the operator even knew my voice. They would go is this Rolanda. And so I said well this, I know I've got a voice, I'll go do voice acting. And I could not catch a cold because I didn't understand what the business was about. I had a voice and I had a microphone, but I had no idea what voice acting was about. I had a voice and I had a microphone, but I had no idea what voice acting was about.  13:14 So I went over to Calumson and Calumson over there in Burbank and I took a class and that thing saved my life because those that was the one of the that was the well, it was one of the longest strikes in Hollywood nine months and by that time I had created a whole new career and the voice actors weren't on strike. So I said this is a great backup for my physical acting and there are times and when my voice works more than my physical acting and now that I'm becoming a woman of a certain age those roles aren't coming in as quickly. But, honey, I can play a hot 30 year old.  13:53 - Anne (Host) Well, my voice. I love that you're using the woman of a certain age because, as a woman of a certain age, as well, what are you?  14:02 - Rolonda (Guest) going to do.  14:04 - Anne (Host) Exactly. I mean, I say use it Right, I mean absolutely. And so let's talk just for a brief moment about what. So acting and voice acting, same, different, what? What would you say are the key differences? Because you said, oh, I had to go to Kalmanson and Kalmanson, right.  14:22 - Rolonda (Guest) So there are some things, yeah, oh, absolutely.  14:25 - Anne (Host) Bosses need to know that are different and I absolutely always tell people yes, you should, you should, you know, take acting classes. But also there are some, some differences.  14:35 - Rolonda (Guest) Yeah, I find that there there's. It's just a different set of muscles, I think that's what you would say. One is just strictly your imagination and I think, well, for me, one helps the other. Well, for instance, the character I play we talked about Lucille, lucille talks like this she's got a little quiver in her voice and she just real high pitch, like that. So some of those tricks that we learn in terms of texture and pitch and pacing and all of that that we do as we imagine our characters, I do the same thing when I see the character on the page and I say how does that voice, what? What is it about her voice that's going to make her stand out. And they know that's Lucille, that's part of her, because she doesn't have cause. That character doesn't have this voice, not my voice. So I think that that that helps me find my characters In fact.  15:29 In fact I did a play and I had I did three plays at one time. Craziest thing in the world never been done Did three plays at one time, playing 10 different characters, from a nine-year-old girl to a 76-year-old grandmother, and all of those are different voices. You know, one was a journalist, one was a, you know, grandmother one, a, a little girl who grew up in mississippi. I mean, those are just such different voices and I also have bring my physical things, like when I'm thinking of a character in my voice, acting. I think what would they wear?  16:04 Shakespeare said, the clothes make the man and the woman too. Are they wearing a cape that they sold over there, you know? Are they carrying a sword? Does she have really tight bobs in her hair? I mean, does she have a mustache? So there are all kinds of things that I think. If I'm in my prop room or my wardrobe room and it's just my imagination, what can I do to help bring those things to light? Just the way, when they put the wig on and the clothes and the heels on for stage or screen, you could become that character. You do the same in your imagination, yeah.  16:37 - Anne (Host) I love that, I love that parallel.  16:40 That makes so much sense, actually, and it's interesting. So, for voice actors, who have not necessarily acted, what sort of tips would you have to for them to be better actors? Let's say, because it's funny, I do a lot of the stuff that people don't think you need to act for in terms of voiceover, like corporate narration or e-learning, and they think that you don't need to act. But in reality you're always a character, and so when I'll say to my students, envision that scene, it's just to them they're like what, why? Why do I need to do that? Why don't I just read the words? You know why?  17:20 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) I hear it. Yeah, exactly, you know why?  17:22 - Rolonda (Guest) Because we're not looking for readers, we're looking for actors, and I think that's one of the biggest mistakes that folks make who don't become a VO boss is because they don't understand what this industry is about. It's really not even about your voice. It's not about I mean, everybody has a beautiful, unique voice, because there are no two voices alike but it's the acting that's going to make you so different. It's those subliminal things under those lines. Sometimes you have a whole commercial that tells a whole life story in four lines and they, they fought over those lines. Attorneys, 50 people made all those lines. So they mean something. What is the story we're telling here? Right, and who am I in this story and who am I talking to? You know all of those questions. Where am I? Why am I even this story and who am I talking to? You know all of those questions. Where am I? Why am I even talking about this toilet paper? You know, and I'm a bear.  18:21 Why am I. Even I'm a mama bear. I mean why? You know why am I, and I'm not going to act like a bear, but I'm going to act like a mom who's concerned about her kids not wiping themselves. And that's just real stuff. So how do you tap into the authenticity? How do you make it human? Because what our job is is to connect with another human being. That's something that folks down there on Madison Avenue, the big advertisers, can't do in their suits, so they depend on us as actors, to be human, to be just plain old ourselves and human. No bravado, as we're hearing so much in our copy and in our instruction and directions as actors. Authenticity, throw it away, just give it to me. No salesy, no Anne, and I got to tell you that's the hardest thing in the world to do. Even for us seasoned actors, it's sometimes hard to shake off the the, the formality and just get real with it. You know and feel comfortable and confident with that.  19:21 - Anne (Host) Can I ask you to repeat that, can you that you said, you said what you said. It was hard, it's hard, it is hard, right. It is so hard Like I love it because you create that scene Right. It is so hard, like I love it because you create that scene Right In which those words make sense, right.  19:36 And tell a story and sometimes those words are really we don't know. We don't know that, Like I, have some people that are almost indignant that they don't have a storyboard or they don't. They don't understand the words. So therefore, if they don't, they're just kind of well, let's just say them then.  19:58 - Rolonda (Guest) Right In a melody that I think they want to hear. Rolonda, that's great, then they'll have a melody that they just heard, but they won't have the commercial.  20:03 - Anne (Host) I love it, so yes, so you said it's hard, rolanda says it's hard, it is.  20:09 - Rolonda (Guest) I go on record as saying the hardest thing I've ever had to do whether it was talk, tv or vocal or physical acting is being myself. Now in life, I have no problem beingRolondaauthentically Rolanda. What you see is Rolonda you get. But it's something that happens when we pick up that script and that microphone is in front of us and, all of a sudden, things start changing and happening. We're just not ourselves. I don't sound like myself. I don't like toRolondahear my voice. It takes, it's really acting. When you hear people who sound like how did they get that job? They don't even sound like a voice actor. It's because they are turning themselves Rolonda a virtual pretzel justRolondato sound like that, to sound so normal.  20:58 I remember when I first started doing my talk show um, the, the demand of being a, an actor I mean not an actor, but a talk show host with a talk show called rolanda was that you had to be Rolanda. You couldn't be the news reporter anymore. That was crucial to the success, and so it was very hard to even do it then, and I can remember my bosses and my partners calling going get that news reporter out of there, bring back Rolanda. And I said but I've got this crazy laugh and a raspy voice and I, you know, I'm a Southern accent and that's everything that makes my brand. I mean, it's crazy, but that's Rolanda. When you say Rolanda, that's what you hear. So whatever that is about you, whatever that quirky, crazy thing that you think is your fault, that's going to be your greatest asset. You know, when I was a little kid, they called me froggy and I always played all the guys in all my all girls school plays and I thought that was a real fault of mine. And now I can play women, men, little boys, pirates, anything in this industry of voice acting, and there's no limitation. The only limitation is your imagination. It's not about the equipment, it's not even about your voice. It's about your brilliant imagination and what you bring to that character, not even the microphone, what you bring to that character that nobody else thought about. That made that animator go. Oh, I can't wait to draw this character, um, and to make the casting director's job easy. They want you to win, they want you to get this job, so give it to them, show them your special sauce.  22:43 But I think it takes real practice, practice, practice. Like carnegie hall, they say. You just don't walk up into carnegie hall and start playing the violin. No, you got to learn how the instrument works. You got to learn how to maintain it, take care of it, how to make love to that instrument so it delivers that God given art and craft that you've put into it. You've got to do the work. And a lot of people think, well, I can just go pick this up and read. And the sad thing is, and they don't take classes and they have no idea what they're doing wrong. The worst thing that can happen is you go years and years and years building on the wrong stuff because you never took the time to learn the right stuff. You don't know what you don't know. Yeah, that's so.  23:29 - Anne (Host) I'm.  23:29 - Rolonda (Guest) I'm real big on training and classes so that you get the education and the acting experience and you understand how to break down scripts, you understand the vocabulary of this industry and how to network and and and use your resources that are right there at your fingertips.  23:46 - Anne (Host) Well, I think I think you're probably very much a VO Boss on using those resources and networking throughout your whole career. That's absolutely something that I feel that you've you've done so successfully. What would you say is probably the most important thing tip that you could give to to ensure success in this industry? Because it's a evolving industry and, yes, being the the queen of reinvention, right, you've had to reinvent yourself, and reinvent yourself not only in, you know, voiceover, but in, like all the media and how it's evolved over the years. So what would be your, your best tip to ensure success? Don't quit there. You go.  24:26 - Rolonda (Guest) I like that. The only people who don't succeed in voice acting are people who quit. I like that. You know, even the greatest ones. And you know, when we're at the VO Atlanta conference and we're with the greats I mean we're with Bob, who's Porky the pig, and we're with Joe, who's every network's Anne and when you hear these, these, these major vo stars and pros say, man, I do 50 to 100 auditions and may not nab the job a lot of us went whoa.  24:59 - Anne (Host) thank god, it's just not us, because yeah, I mean I can show you a stack in my head. I'm like oh, thank god, because, yeah, I, I just did a ton, I know, yeah, and look, listen I hear some auditions from this month okay yeah, am, I, am, I am I booking every one of them?  25:16 - Rolonda (Guest) no, but that's but. But you have to change your mindset. Every time I show up that microphone and I'm doing an audition, I'm not going up there. Well, I'm not going to get the job anyway. If you've got a bad attitude like that, it's time for you to jump into a classroom and just realign yourself, because this is a long game. And let me tell you what's going to happen when you get great you nab that job, you go and do that commercial. One hour it's gone and you're right back to auditioning again. So don't put all of your emphasis on just the job, but the but, the practice, the maintenance of it. Uh, going to conferences like the VO Atlanta conference, vo Dallas conference, sosa look up these places. That's a good place to hobnob. This is a very solo business. You're a solopreneur, you're by yourself, you, your microphone, your computer and your imagination. That's it. So get out and join memberships. Like Anne. You can come and take my class, the voice acting masterclass with Rolanda. In fact, I'm going to offer your listeners a very special deal if they're interested.  26:29 But that's another way that we build community and you learn what's the cutting edge. Right now we're dealing with AI. What does that mean? Staying on the cutting edge of things that are going to affect your career and really take it as a business. This is not just a hobby. Understand how your taxes work, understand the legalities and understand the questions to ask when you're signing a contract. Now just don't run out there all willy-nilly and not ask the right questions or your voice will be used forever and you not get paid. You know the video game people just had a strike and got some. Where are we moving forward in the business?  27:10 Be able to talk intelligently about the business. So when you're out there meeting people, they know, oh okay, this is somebody really serious. This isn't just somebody who just got a microphone on amazon and call themselves a voice actor, because there's a lot of that. But I say that um, really, just don't quit and understand that every time you show up in front of that microphone, it's another opportunity to show you a special sauce. And if the casting director doesn't get you into this particular job and that's not their decision, it's the producer's or whoever the client is. If you don't make it then, then at least they've heard you. I get a lot of times where they're. Rolonda same client will keep calling me back and I know I've impressed them in those other auditions I've done, so I know they're looking for something for me, so I just keep showing up, doing the best that I possibly can and finding ways to make it different. Because they've heard the same audition 50 million times, sometimes 500 times.  28:12 So what can you do to make it a little different and still stay within the parameters? So there's Ganguzza kinds of tricks and strategies and all kinds of things that you can do to stand Ganguzza and also how you market yourself like anything else. This is a brand Just because Rolonda have a microphone. Anything else this is a brand. Just because you have a microphone doesn't mean you have a brand. So reallyRolonda you know, that's one of the things I tell my students all the time. Once you get the breaking down the script and understand how the microphone and the vocab let's, let's talk about marketing, social marketing. How do we brand ourselves? How can you be one name like Rolanda and people immediately know what that means, and so that's really knowing your stuff and knowing your own voice too, that's so interesting because for a while, when I first started, I had different names.  29:00 - Anne (Host) I mean I, of course I started VO Peeps, I have VO Boss, and then I have Anne Ganguza brand and I'm like I really just need to wrap it all up into the Anne Ganguza brand. So finally, people say I need an Anne Ganguza, like I need a Rolanda. I need an Anne Ganguza, and so I love that that you have that brand and you build on that brand. But, rolanda, let me ask you a question, because I saw the stack of auditions. Do you I mean still, do you get, still I say still do you get an imposter syndrome?  29:31 - Rolonda (Guest) I think I'm pretty much. I'm pretty much at this time in my life. I know who I am. You know I'm not trying to. I've done enough and achieved enough and have enough confidence in myself. I think you know what I think this is. The other thing about this industry is confidence, because you can hear I can hear through a microphone. If you're not confident and you don't even believe yourself, if you see it, I'm going to see it. If you believe it, I'm going to believe it. And that's half the battle, I mean, and that's also part of the practice of this art and this craft, is learning how to still your nerves. Breathing is so much a part, warming up is so much a part of it and it's a full body job. This is an inside job because your beautiful vocal cords are right here in this body encases it. So you got to work out, you got to stretch. You know I love this. Old morgan freeman used to say that the secret to his great voice was a good, deep yawn.  30:29 Absolutely, you know because it just loosens up everything and these 41 muscles up here need to be worked out. A lot of people just jump right up, start reading, don't even warm up their mouths.  30:40 - Anne (Host) As evidenced by your. I think it was yesterday when I saw you on Facebook and you were like all right, I'm going back to the gym.  30:48 - Rolonda (Guest) I know. I messed up.  30:50 - Anne (Host) That's it. I'm going back.  30:54 - Rolonda (Guest) I'm a hot mess but.  30:56 - Anne (Host) I think that warming up I mean it helps, it absolutely does. Just a physical walk, you know, if you go to the gym, a physical warmup does absolutely help. Now, we did talk, we touched upon the confidence issue. We did talk, we touched upon the confidence issue, and one thing that I'm really excited about is that in let's see, is it in September, on the 17th, we are going to have you doing a guest directorship for the VO bosses on improv to improve your confidence and connection. So we will be talking about how bosses can remain confident or stay confident or get confident in the booth, and I love that.  31:35 You said that we can hear. We can hear that confidence and it's really interesting because even if you're telling a story and it may not be the story that ends up being on the video or the commercial right or the commercial right If we're auditioning and we're telling a story and we're convinced of it and we are confident in it, then the people listening, the casting directors, the people that will cast us, will believe it as well, and I think that's one of the telltale signs that they say, ah, shortlist, or that's what's gonna get you the gig.  32:05 - Rolonda (Guest) I think confidence and that's really believing in yourself and being able to take chances and risks. Because you know, think about it. The casting director is hearing 500 people say the same three lines. What are you going to bring to that story that's going to make a difference? I'll give you an example.  32:23 I did an at t commercial and it was about it. It was a very little short commercial and it was about a young girl who sees her mother, who has gone out for girls night at a salsa club, and she says mom, is this you on social media? And the mother goes oh, yes, honey, we were out with Raul last night and we were just dancing and then I something happened. And I said and I just to world. That was not even a line in the script, but I just had this imagination, cuz I used to go out salsa with my girlfriends in California and, honey, when Eduardo would ask us to dance, we would to world. And that just brought that into that like an aunt Lucille, and that's what got me the gig. And it was, and it was just that little button that we say, you know, because they've heard 500 times that people say the same thing yes, I went salsaing with my girlfriend, but nobody twirled but me, nobody's.  33:26 - Anne (Host) nobody else is twirling except for Rolanda. Nobody else is.  33:29 - Rolonda (Guest) honey, that's how much fun I had, which lets you know what that video must have looked like, that the girl saw.  33:36 Absolutely, absolutely, and listen and the fact that these old ladies were even on social media, lets, you know, those boys were young. They taught him how to tick and tock and twirl, you know. So I'm having a whole imaginative thing about going out with my girlfriends and then my girlfriend, my daughter, catching me. Oh please, child, we had a good time. You know, we don't care about what people think at this age. So bringing all of those things, even my own wisdom at this age, like I don't care, honey, I'm twirling with Eduardo because the guys my age don't twirl, so I'm bringing all of that fun into it, you know.  34:11 Another example was when I did judge Joe Brown. You know I was the Anne for that show and when I was doing the audition we had to, you know, was a promo, so I would have to read the line and then listen to the sound bite and then read the line in between. And listen to the sound bite, read, read the line. And I was so big. Judge Joe was such a crazy, freaking judge show. I would say, coming up today on Judge Joe, I'm going to slit your tire and I'm going to beat Shaniqua Mary can't stand, john and then I'm going to cut your other tire and then I would be.  34:46 And then one time I just went, whoa, the next Judge, joe. Honey, they fell on the floor. I was so busy listening that I was reacting like an at home person and I was like, ooh, on the next Joe. I was so irreverent that they created a little animation called lady justice and it was a little bug and I made up this whole story that lady justice was in love with joe just like the daytime audience was gone. Joe, tell them, joe, that's judge, joe, you know because I know the daytime audience. Yeah, so that's the other question we asked who are you talking to?  35:30 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) absolutely, this wasn't the inside edition audience. This. Don't be afraid to take that risk.  35:53 - Rolonda (Guest) You can do a straight one on the next Judge. Joe and Shanique was going to go, but honey, one time let it rip and show them that you can have fun. Fun is the main key. If it's not fun, don't do it.  36:05 - Anne (Host) Yeah, I agree, I think if you can make, if you can make someone laugh, if you can, if you can, if you can bring a smile to that casting director, that person listening to you, oh my goodness. And speaking of because normally I try to make this, you know, a 30 minute podcast, but I do want to touch upon. I do want to touch upon the fact that you are a stand up comedian as well, and we had quite a conversation at VO Atlanta on that, and so I feel like that's just all embedded in your personality and I think you were always a funny person, like from maybe a young girl. But talk to us about being at stand up comedy is tough.  36:41 - Rolonda (Guest) Oh, it's really tough.  36:42 - Anne (Host) But you know something that's a rough audience.  36:45 - Rolonda (Guest) Know your audience. Who are you talking to? That's true. And you know something Lunell taught me that she said know your audience, be able to switch on a dime, whatever. But I'm going to tell you just, VO bosses, that comedy helps immensely. It helps your timing, you know. So much of comedy comes in threes. So when you're doing animation or even some fun commercials, what's that third line where the funny ABC?  37:10 - Anne (Host) read right Where's that?  37:11 - Rolonda (Guest) Where's that? Third line where the funny? Or they want an ABC. Read Right, where's that? Where's that? Where's the funny? And that also gives you the confidence and the imagination and and I tell you funny, joan Rivers told Sherri Shepherd funny girls always work, funny women, funny girls always work, funny women, funny women always work. So adding a little humor to something I think makes you stand out. But I love the craft of comedy. I'm uh got uh some comedy shows here in New York at the comedy village comedy in Harlem, and then I'm going to go out to flappers in LA this winter December for the holidays and I'm opening for Lunell and that's really exciting so yeah, I'm getting my comedy on Awesome.  37:58 - Anne (Host) Look out for me on Netflix one day. I do not doubt it. Well, rolanda, it has been such a pleasure. I wish I could talk to you for another. Well, another five episodes.  38:07 - Rolonda (Guest) Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute Speaking of Netflix. I got to do this and we're talking about Michelle Boutot's show survival of the thickest.  38:15 - Anne (Host) I'm on that one as well on Netflix. Awesome. Oh, and before and before we actually go, talk to us a little bit about September 17th improv to improve your confidence. A little bit about what we're going to, we're going to be diving into in that class.  38:30 - Rolonda (Guest) Oh, I can't wait to that class because improv is such a great way to gain your confidence, to loosen up and to have a whole bunch of fun. The beautiful thing about improv is there are certain rules that we go by, but it's just fun and it's going to help you tap into your authenticity. One good example we improv every day in life. You talk to your lover very different than you do to your boss, and don't let your best girlfriend call you in the middle of the day, and then, when your mother calls, listen to all the different voices that we have, and that's a lot of improv too. Improv also helps you listen and much of acting is about listening and I think you will surprise yourself, and part of the improv to improve your confidence is finding your own voice and discovering things through this exercise about your own experiences and about your being able to to react on a dime and have fun and laugh about it. Then when you you get those scripts, you can improv in your head.  39:32 I always do a little role play before I start, something Like if I have to play an old grandma, then I talk like an old grandma. Okay, I spin and rush them out. Our teeth don't fit too well. You got a little pain in the rats every once in a while. So you keep building these wonderful things that help you. Listen, you may not get that job, but you know you're going to doggone. Put in the effort because you've done the work. You know you. You will be so surprised, all the places that your voice will take you. And improv too. I mean there are times you're going to meet strangers, a new boss, and going to have to improv too. I mean there are times you're going to meet strangers, a new boss and going to have to improv too.  40:13 So improv is going to be a fun exercise for us. We're going to then take scripts, break down those scripts and do some acting. I'm going to teach you about Uta Hagen's nine questions. We're going to talk a little bit, a bit about Sandy Meisner's techniques, and these are just little things that you can put in your hip pocket that will help you. When you go out into the world and you're in that booth by yourself and you look to the right and the left and there's nobody there but padded walls, what are you going to do? You're not going to freak out, because we're going to learn about warmups and what we do with all this body when we're nervous and behind a microphone, because I can hear nervousness, I can hear it. So let's uh, let's work on that rolanda, did you hear my nerves?  40:57 - Anne (Host) did you hear my nerves when I was interviewing you are so not nervous listen, you need to make it easy.  41:05 - Rolonda (Guest) You've got the ganguza method, that's it there you my own method. I want to be gangouza'd. I love it.  41:12 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) I love it oh my gosh.  41:14 - Anne (Host) Thank you so so much. It has been such a pleasure talking to you today.  41:19 - Rolonda (Guest) You know how much fun we have. We get together and start talking and the sun can come up.  41:23 - Anne (Host) So true, so true.  41:23 - Rolonda (Guest) Thank you, thank you so much.  41:25 - Anne (Host) I so true, thank you. Thank you so much. I'm so excited for you, for our class in September. Bosses, I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and network like bosses, like Rolanda and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom.  41:42 - Rolonda (Guest) I just wanted to add this that if any of your listeners wanted to check out my voice acting masterclass voice acting masterclass I'm going to offer 50% off if they use the code VO Boss 50.  42:01 - Anne (Host) Oh, I love it. Vo Boss 50.  42:01 - Rolonda (Guest) I'll put that on the show notes, guys. Thank you so much, Just for your listeners. 50% off. Vo Boss listeners go to Rolandacom.  42:08 - Anne (Host) Awesome Thanks. Bye bosses. Thank you, Rolandacom. Awesome Thanks, Bye bosses. Thank you, Rolanda. Bye.  42:13 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipdtl.   

Anne Ganguzza and Danielle Famble dive into a crucial topic every voice actor faces: Return on Investment (ROI). In an industry that combines both tangible equipment and intangible skills, the discussion examines which investments are truly worthwhile. From starter microphones to a full-blown studio, and from coaching to building confidence, Anne and Danielle offer a fresh perspective on how to measure the success of your financial decisions. They emphasize that in a creative industry, ROI is not always about money—it's also about personal growth, confidence, and building a sustainable business.   00:00 - Anne (Host) Hey bosses, we now have events, so don't miss out. Our VIP membership gives you exclusive discounts to events and access to workshops that are sure to boost your voiceover career. Find out more at voboss.com.  00:16 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO Boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:35 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss Podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am here with the Boss Money Talks series with my good friend, Danielle Famble. Hey, Danielle, hey, how are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm good, Danielle. I just got an email from Amazon, oh, and the subject said you might like this, or we found something you might like, which I think is such a marketing tactic. It is a good opening line. Works on me, yeah for sure.  01:08 - Danielle (Guest) It works on me. You definitely opened the email, didn't you?  01:11 - Anne (Host) Yeah, because it's based on my previous you know, either browsing or my previous purchases, and so those of you that have ever perused the VioBoss website know that I have a Studio Gear page where I put all the recommendations for Studio Gear, and so I was updating that page and, of course, everything that they sent to me was Studio Gear related, and I was like, oh, look at that shiny new interface, look at that shiny new pair of headphones. Yeah, you know, new colors, new colors. Yeah, it leads me to think about Danielle what Vio expenses are actually worth the ROI? I mean, that is something that I think every voice actor needs to consider when they're spending money and investing in their business. So which purchases are actually worth it?  01:58 - Danielle (Guest) Yeah, and there are lots of little things that you can invest in in your business and some of them are tangible, like you're talking about the headphones or the interface, and then some of them are intangible, like when you're investing in your education or you're investing in yourself with coaching. So I think that that's such a personal question and it also will change as you progress in your VO boss journey. Agreed, the things that are great returns on investment as you progress in your VO boss journey? Agreed, the things that are great returns on investment when you're earlier on in your career? You may not invest in those again when you're 10, 15, 20, 30 plus years in the game. Right, yeah, that's a fun little question.  02:38 - Anne (Host) I mean we could start with the obvious. The obvious would be most people think, well, okay, I want to be a voice actor, so what do I need? I need a microphone. So there are microphones and there I think microphones are an investment that if you're just starting out and you're not sure if this is really the thing that you want to do or you're going to, you know this is a long term investment for you. Maybe just a starter microphone works. That's a few hundred dollars and I think that that would be worth an investment to just get your feet wet, get you know, dip your toes in the water and find out if this is a career choice that you are going to stick with.  03:12 But if you kind of know that in your heart and you've done enough research and maybe you've gone ahead and done some coaching and you're fairly certain, I would say it's absolutely worth your investment to invest in a good microphone. I mean because I think microphones are one thing. We may use them every single day, right, but we're not like handling them too much. We're not, like you know, dropping them on the ground. God forbid, hopefully not. You're. A good microphone is going to last for years and years, like my 416 and my TLM 103, I have had them for already, like going on 15 years, like, literally there's no signs of slowing down. However, at one point they will, but I've certainly made back the money that I've invested in them, absolutely. What are your?  03:56 - Danielle (Guest) thoughts. I agree, I'm kind of more of the grow as you go kind of mentality. So when I started I was using the Synco Mic D1, I think, or something like that D2. And it was billed as the knockoff 416. And then when I actually had the 416, I was able to listen to them side by side. And it is not, but it worked out for the time being. It was what I could afford at the time and then the additional money or the money that I had that I could have spent on the 416 at the time, I put that money into coaching. I put that money into getting a good demo. I put that money into investing in sort of the soft skills needed to win and do well in this business and really in business in general.  04:45 So I think that the ROI, again, like you, can sort of start with what is the starter, and maybe the starter is a certain dollar amount and I don't think there is a dollar amount, but it's the dollar amount that is comfortable for you. That maybe isn't the 416 or the TLM 103, something like that and then you use some of that money to then invest in the soft skills and invest in your coaching, invest in your website or things like that.  05:16 - Anne (Host) I started off with an AT2020 and I graduated to a Rode MT1A, which is not necessarily what I would recommend today, but those were only a few hundred dollars, and I still remember when I actually got my very first like major investment in a mic was a good 10 years after I had. I had been because I made good money with that Rode for at least six, seven years, and then and it just didn't occur to me because I had a great studio at the time, right, and I didn't hear a need or nobody Everybody said, oh my God, you sound great, and so I didn't feel a need that I had to go experiment with microphones. Now, some people are gearheads. You know we've all got our thing, kind of like me investing in lipsticks or in clothing. You know they have to try it all Totally.  06:08 I remember, though, when I did invest in my TLM 103, I actually heard the difference, but I could not have been able to tell the difference. Probably, I think, when you're first getting into the industry, it takes a minute for you to get an ear. Develop your ear For your sound, for your microphone yeah, we don't talk enough about that and maybe that's fodder for another. You know another episode. But developing your ear in voiceover for performance and for good equipment, it takes time I mean years and it took experimentation. It took, you know, trying, and I think it took me, after years of being in the industry, of hearing the difference with a good quality pair of headphones, with a good quality mic in a good quality studio, and so all of those were were back the ROI.  06:55 - Danielle (Guest) That also increases as well. You know things like investing in your booth, investing in where you're going to record. I started recording in my closet and like adding extra pillows, and I was taking pillow cases off of, like my bed, from the couch cushions. I was taking anything that was soft and just bringing that into the closet with me to record and I, you know I did quite a bit of work that way for a good amount of time and then, you know, time progressed and I got a different booth and then I upgraded to the booth that I'm in currently. So if you, I think, if you can grow as you go, you might be getting more of an ROI because you're developing that, your ear, you're developing your business sense, your business savvy, you're understanding, you know what you bring to the microphone, what you bring to the business, and all of that is how you increase that ROI for sure.  07:53 - Anne (Host) You know, and we should talk about ROI Is ROI always positive financially based?  07:58 - Danielle (Guest) No, I don't think so. No right, I think it can definitely be the intangibles as well. It can be exactly how comfortable you feel attacking commercial copy. It can be how quickly you're able to adjust from in a session when you're given differing opinions on how you should, you know, read a line or something like that. It's your ability to speak up for yourself and ask for what you want and negotiate all of those things.  08:22 - Anne (Host) That's such a good point of this topic because ROI, especially in our industry, when our voices I mean our voices are so much more than just physical voices for our product, it has everything to do with who we are, what got us here, our life journey and confidence right. So if a new microphone can make you feel more confident, can make your performance better, that's going to make your product better. So ROI, I think in our type of industry, when it's a creative industry, really can be almost as much intangible as it is tangible.  09:00 - Danielle (Guest) It's what you're pouring into the product that you're offering, which is tangible. It's what you're pouring into the product that you're offering which is yourself. It's what you're pouring into your physical instrument. It's what you're pouring into your heart. It's what you're pouring into. I love the confidence aspect, because that is a huge intangible.  09:17 that is incredibly important, oh my gosh yes, helps you feel good in your booth, in your read, it's what gives you the confidence to go to conferences and put yourself out there, reach out to new agents. Yeah, like that is the product. The voice is the conduit to it, but you, the human being, are the product and so, whenever you can pour into yourself and make sure that you are operating at your best and highest vibration, you're going to get that ROI back because you're putting out a one-of-one, a very unique commodity, absolutely.  09:52 - Anne (Host) You know, not everyone can just get Spoken from the girl who loves to talk about money. I love that, right. I love that. It's just as important, right, I think, for the ROI to be intangible as it is to be tangible. Now, if we talk about the tangible aspects of it, how do you measure? How do you measure the ROI? How do you look at the hard-cold numbers for an investment in a microphone? I mean, are you looking at it on a monthly basis? Are you like, okay, I invested you know a thousand dollars in this microphone and how have I made it back? Right, Are you looking at the jobs you booked? Are you looking at, you know, an agent you just got? And again, how do you track that? Really, in cold, hard numbers? Sometimes you can't Right.  10:36 - Danielle (Guest) Sometimes you can't, but some things you know, for example, like like a microphone or an interface. You know, I look at things pretty clearly in terms of can I afford it or not? That's sort of the start. And if I cannot afford it right now, how long will it take me to be able to afford it? Should I utilize other tools? Should I use debt? Should I put it on a credit card? But I know that I've got some invoices that are going to be paid by the end of the month and so I can pay for it. Can I afford this thing? And then I look at is this thing, let's say a microphone, is it replacing something that I've already used that needs to be replaced? Do I really need it? Or if I'm a gearhead and I just like it, that's fine too. But know that you know before you just acquire new things and then, do I know how to use it? Yeah, that's sort of the intangible.  11:25 - Anne (Host) That's a good. That's a good, that's a good point Can.  11:27 - Danielle (Guest) I use it, you know, with, with. Can I use it how it needs to be used, or do I need to invest in education to learn how?  11:35 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) to use it.  11:35 - Danielle (Guest) For example, I got a new interface and I wanted to make sure I knew how to use it. Can I afford it? Yes, I bought it, great. But then I didn't really know how to use it. So then I invested in coaching with an audio engineer who explained what it was to me and how I could use it. And so then the ROI actually made sense, because when someone said, hey, can you turn up your gain or turn off that 4K button, or we don don't really. We need this, this and this. Can you tell us what your interface is Like? I could speak to it with confidence, because I had put in the time and energy to, yes, buy it, but then learn how to use it. And for me, then, that's how I look at the ROI.  12:15 - Anne (Host) Sure, well, you know, I get a lot of students because obviously I'm a coach and I get a lot of students because obviously I'm a coach and I get a lot of students who will say, well, I want to be able to work in the industry and then be able to pay for my demo or my coaching, my additional coaching. And so that's a tough one, because that's like what came first, the chicken or the egg, because in reality you kind of have to figure out, you kind of have to make an investment in the coaching aspect of things and, of course, the demo too, because I'm a big believer that demos are what helps market that voice, so that you can get the jobs, so you can then reinvest it in your business. And so what are your thoughts about the intangible investments like, well, investing yourself with coaching and with, let's say, demos.  12:57 - Danielle (Guest) I think those are probably, as you're starting out, that's probably going to be what's going to get you the highest ROI. Are those intangibles. It's the coaching, it's the demos, it's the website, it's the marketing materials, it's knowing how to market yourself, it's knowing what genres you want to work in and that you're good at and that it's fun for you that you're finding the joy, that it's fun for you that you're finding the joy. So those things. I think that's really where I would spend more of my energy and my money trying to really invest in those things. But to your point, you need one to beget the other. The work begets work, but you've got to have something to show who you are, what you do and how well you do that thing Exactly.  13:42 So sometimes that may need to be going into a little bit of debt so that you can purchase that, or it is utilizing your nine to five to fund your five to nine. It's having to sort of figure out what is it that I'm trying to get let's say it's a demo or a coaching package, for example and how much is that going to cost me? How long will it take me to save up for it? Or what do I need to do to make that happen, because then, after a certain period of time, I usually say give yourself like six months to a year to try and get that money back. Yeah, yeah, it's a long enough time, if not longer sometimes.  14:22 - Anne (Host) Yeah, and maybe even longer. I think in the beginning sometimes it could take longer because, you know, I remember telling people my first year I made a decision to go full time when I decided to move across the country and I thought for the first couple of months I would look for a job in education. Because I came from education and I was like, so I had worked so hard in my other job, I took a few months off. Well, I actually couldn't have afforded at the time the few months off, because that was that was like the crash of 2008. And so, in reality, yeah, I basically was not successful in getting in the door really for my, my full time job, just because it was a new area and you know I was specializing in technology and so there were lots of factors in that. And so I just decided to pour all of my energy into going full-time in VO and, as hard of a worker as I am, I still, the first year maybe made $1,200. It was really something that I was learning lots of things. I mean, it was a new area. I was trying to get to know new people, new local studios and trying to figure out marketing, because now I was doing it full time and so there was a lot of investment that I made in my own education and in improving my voiceover, improving my getting new demos and that sort of thing. So it did put a lot of money out for that initial investment.  15:49 And so sometimes it can take a little bit of time to see the return on investment and again, like we were talking about before, sometimes you don't recognize it because in this business you kind of have to develop an ear for a lot of things. You have to develop an ear for your studio sound. You have to develop an ear for a microphone Does it fit you? You have to develop an ear for, you know, for your auditioning really, and that's kind of a soft skill right that incorporates coaching and incorporates just doing it and practicing it. So those are so difficult in the beginning, I think, to justify a return on investment. And I think if you're just getting involved in this business you have to kind of expect those things to take more time than you would like them to Absolutely and also know what not to do.  16:37 - Danielle (Guest) So I always try to look at it as what am I doing to get to my very first dollar and anything outside of that Maybe I don't need to be focusing my money on it because I'm not going to get that return on investment as quickly.  16:50 - Anne (Host) I like that.  16:50 - Danielle (Guest) So it may be those things to get to your first dollar are the coaching.  16:55 It's your, it's your marketing materials, it's your demos, it's your learning how to utilize your, your, your DAW or your interface, like it's your demos, it's your learning how to utilize your DAW or your interface, like it's learning about those things. But maybe it's not. Maybe it's not getting like the super fancy website, maybe it's not business cards, maybe it's not. You know all kinds of other things that seem like oh, this is what I should do for the business purposes, a CRM, you know, like just everything that you do for business. It may not be what you need to be doing now, but what can get you to your first dollar the quickest? Because that's a proof of concept that it's working. And if you can get to one dollar, you can get to two. Then you can get to four, six, eight, whatever. So I would, I would look at it like that of where? Where am I putting my energy, my effort?  17:39 - Anne (Host) I know it's probably going to take a bit of time, but I'm driving towards getting to my first dollar and that's how you'll get the snowball going of the ROI and they hang it up like when they open their business, like I don't know if people do that anymore, but in reality, like that becomes like such an important concept, like what are you doing to make your first dollar? And you're right, sometimes it doesn't happen immediately and I think one thing that people just have to understand is that it does sometimes take time, right, but once you make the first dollar, as you said, then comes the second dollar, then comes the third dollar, and I notice it happens over and over in this business where it's like success begets success.  18:29 - Danielle (Guest) Yeah, it does.  18:30 - Anne (Host) And so once you start booking jobs, right outside of an occasional lull right, which happens like seasonally in this industry, and that's something else that you have to get used to Then there's always the capability and the confidence to get to dollar number two and then to get to dollar number three and typically it happens more frequently and then comes the confidence, which I don't think there's a price on that, to be quite honest, because once you have confidence in yourself, in your product and in your business, I don't think there's anything stopping you from being successful, for sure, totally. Let's talk about other things. That, because you mentioned a website and I don't want to let that go, because I think that a website investment is a whole lot more important than some people think, because, again, I'm going old school, right, when people used to actually make their first dollar and then frame it and hang it up in the place of their business. Well, the place of our business now is our studio, and so we really need to be thinking about where you know we're going to celebrate those wins, right, and we want to think about how are we opening our storefront right, where is that storefront? Because it's not physical, it's online, and so that impression that storefront is where people go to buy things.  19:47 I mean, I buy things online every day and I think we all do that. Storefront is important and I think that that is a worthy investment. Now, do you need to make that right away, before you have a demo or before you have right any samples to put up there or even a thought as to what your brand is about? You can always start creating a website on the back burner of things, because as you grow, it develops kind of like your studio, right? You evolve, you change, you grow. I think your website is one of those things. Your storefront grows with you.  20:19 - Danielle (Guest) Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important to have you know you, to place your digital shingle up so that people can find you, because in this day and age, so many people are finding you on your website or digital presence in some way, and then they're coming to speak with you via email. So they need to know how to reach you. So I do think that's important, but some things do. The great thing about a website is that it can change and evolve and sort of that's the point. Can change and evolve, and sort of that's the point. So you start with what you have, and if what you have is just this is my name, this is my picture, this is what I sound like and this is how you can reach me, those basic things are all. That's what a website should entail, anything else showing what you do.  21:04 - Anne (Host) A way to purchase.  21:05 - Danielle (Guest) A way to purchase a product, a way to purchase a product that is really like. It's the gateway to how to get to purchase the product of my voiceover services, me as a person, and how we can work together me, you, the client. But other than that, I don't think that it serves you to wait to put that digital shingle up until you're ready, because there's time that could go to making your first dollar, absolutely Even if that digital shingle is not the way that other people's digital shingles look. But I would say, put the website up and get that out there as quickly as possible. That has the basic information about how to find you, how to purchase your product that you're selling, how to pay you, how to pay you Exactly you have to be able to get pounds so that you're selling how to pay you, how to pay you Exactly Like.  21:54 - Anne (Host) You have to be able to get pounds so that people can hire you and then pay you, and that, I think, is so, so important.  22:00 - Danielle (Guest) And those things will grow and evolve as time goes on. But you don't need to wait until all of these things are in place and perfect to put it out there so that people you know this is the get to your first dollar. It's got to be scrappy.  22:15 - Anne (Host) I agree with you. Now, what about the other things? Like OK, so you've, how are you going to make your first dollar? So then the next biggest question, or I would say one of the biggest questions I always get, is like so how do I get work? How do I get work?  22:29 So there are multiple ways to get work Right and there are investments that you can make in order to get work Right. You can invest in a pay to play. You can invest in you know management. You can invest in a marketing company that can help you to market. You've decided you're going to hang that shingle out and you're going to do it.  22:53 Well, now you've got to make money right. Now you've got to see that return on investment that you've made, and so you've got to make money. So how do you make money and how do you determine what products or what avenues to invest in so that you can find opportunities? Because that's really what you're doing. You're paying to find opportunities, and whether you're paying somebody to help market you in social media or maybe you're doing that yourself, that's really cost of your time, right, which is a cost you got to calculate, and we have a great episode on what's your hourly worth, right? How much do you get paid per hour? So figure out what that is worth. But let's talk about do you see pay-to-plays as being a worthy investment?  23:35 - Danielle (Guest) It can be a worthy investment, depending on the genre that you want to be working in. If you want to be working in a certain genre, that pay-to-plays are more often than not posting jobs for, absolutely yes, and usually those pay-to-plays have tiers.  23:53 - Anne (Host) Yes.  23:53 - Danielle (Guest) And usually those pay to plays have tiers. I started on a pay to play at the lowest tier as a proof of concept to make sure that I wanted to do this, that it made sense for me and was I going to be making my money back. And I found in one or two jobs I made that lowest tier, that I paid for the year I'd made that money back. So it made more sense to consider upgrading to higher and higher tiers and I think that's the way that you can sort of stair-step it. I agree.  24:14 But, if you know that you're wanting to go into a certain genre, that maybe a pay-to-play is not going to be as beneficial for you, then I would make it so that you're getting the best return on your investment of time and money as possible. But then you spend more of your time going into the spaces where that genre is more marketed and maybe that's not a pay to play. Maybe it is an agent, maybe it's not an agent, maybe it is your own time, maybe it's looking on social media sites for different types of work opportunities. So knowing the genre that you're trying to work in will then tell you where you should put your time and your energy and your money. And if you're trying to work in, will then tell you where you should put your time and your energy and your money and if you do want to work in both broadcast and non-broadcast right.  24:57 - Anne (Host) That, to me, separates out the you know which genres there's. Broadcast and non-broadcast. Broadcast require. You know you're going to have an agent and maybe a manager. You're not going to have to invest in an agent, by the way. You don't have to invest money in an agent, but you have to invest money in a demo that will attract an agent and auditions and or jobs that you've booked on, maybe pay to plays or rosters that attract an agent to want to put you on their roster.  25:20 - Danielle (Guest) That's number one and they would probably need to see it on your website or see, like where those types of jobs that you've done or your demos.  25:26 - Anne (Host) Absolutely.  25:26 And I do want to just make one point about the pay to plays, because there's so many many people that that's always the biggest. I think is one of the biggest topics of discussion is pay-to-plays and what tiers and what's worth it. Back in the day when I joined, there was only one tier and it was like a few hundred dollars a year. And I, what I, even if you join on that first tier right and just to dip your toes in the water, remember, to me it's an education because you're starting, because if you have never worked in voiceover, you don't know what real jobs are out there. You might have worked with a coach that gave you scripts they were practice scripts, they weren't actual jobs that maybe had casting specs or a quote. You know like, oh, here we're going to pay you this amount of money and here's the audition I want you to do, or here's the actual size of the job. And so you're really I think if you're even just on a bare bones level of those pay to plays, you're paying for education to find out what jobs are current out there, who's hiring and what types of jobs are they hiring. So I always say a first level investment is always good for people kind of looking to dip their toes in the industry to find out if this is something they really like, because then they could see here are the types of jobs that are being offered out there, and here's what an actual corporate narration looks like, or here's what an e-learning module looks like, and so I think that's a very worthy investment. Then, yes, there are different tiers. Now there's always back and forth about is this tier worth it? Is the most expensive tier worth it? And, of course, I think that just depends on the timing of things and your ability to audition well and timely Agents.  26:58 Don't ever pay for an agent. If you have to pay for an agent, you need to like run. But managers, in terms of return on investment, if you do get a job through an agent, you're typically paying them a fee, a commission, and so that, yes, is a good return on your investment for the most part, unless you've got an agent who's unscrupulous and maybe not, you know, paying you, which actually does happen Something did just happen recently which is unfortunate and then a manager of which you're paying a certain percentage of every job, whether or not you got that job through them. So that is. You know that's another discussion which we actually had a podcast on that, Danielle because you do have a management company and for you it's a very worthwhile investment. Again, depending on the genres that you work in, a lot that is going to determine if it's worth the ROI.  27:49 So one last thing I want to talk about is ROI in terms of marketing. What should we consider a good return on investment for our marketing efforts? Should we hire, should we buy a CRM? Should we hire a marketing agency? Should we, you know, pay a social media manager to get us out there? I mean, there's so many different options and this could be like again like part two of an episode. You know what are those options and how do I determine the best ROI on that? And marketing is tough Marketing is tough Marketing.  28:22 - Danielle (Guest) I even consider, like my agents and managers, part of my marketing budget, because me doing all of these auditions through them and being associated with them on their websites or on their marketing materials is also marketing, and marketing is one of those that it can be that you really are playing the long game. You could be marketing to a potential client for years and years and then finally a job comes your way through them. Well, that's a worthwhile return on investment because you've been consistently reaching out to these people and, as time has gone on, they know you, they can trust you and they want to work with you. And you know the stars aligned where they had something that was a good fit for you. So it really the thing about marketing is that it is a long-term investment in the growth of you and your voiceover business.  29:19 So the ROI with marketing is a little bit more like. It's kind of like when you are consistently investing money into your savings account or into the stock market or into your retirement account. It's harder to track sometimes. It is hard to track sometimes, but you're doing it knowing that you're not necessarily trying to get an immediate return on investment. You're basically investing in the long-term health of your business, because then you're diversifying yourself from the pay-to-plays, from your agents, from your SEO expenses for your website, All of those things, your SEO expenses for your website, like all of those things. It's really just diversification, and that one is harder to track.  29:58 - Anne (Host) And also, you know, it can be a combination of any or all of the above that we've spoken about today and I mean I really appreciate it can be a combination of your investment in yourself and your performance and your auditioning techniques and investment in you know, refreshing your demos and investment in evolving or getting a new website. Investment in you know, maybe paying somebody to help you market yourself, and investment in you know a pay-to-plays and a management company. So all of these things together and as you evolve right, your investments and your expenses evolve. I mean that's really called growth? Yes, it is, and hopefully it spurs in a positive direction.  30:39 - Danielle (Guest) Yeah, you can always also ask yourself you know if it's something that you're going to be putting your financial investments in. Can I afford it, yes or no? Right, how long will it take for me to be able to afford it? And what do I need to do to purchase it? What tools do I need to use to be able to purchase it? And then, what am I trying to gain from it? What does it look like if this were to be successful? What am I trying to get out of it?  31:04 And it can't just be I just want to book a job. That's a little too nebulous. It could just be something more like I want to feel more confident when I walk in my studio. That's a direction that you can go and then you can say, okay, return on investment, I got it, because now I feel a lot more confident. Check the box, but know what is it going to cost me? That could be money or not. And what am I trying? What is the outcome? What's the cost and what's the outcome? And then, when you can figure those two out and you're very clear about it, then go for it, because you'll know when you've had that ROI.  31:37 - Anne (Host) Love it, love it. And the one thing my takeaway is that ROI is not always financial. No, not always financial, not always easily measurable, so bosses out there lots of things to consider, Danielle, as always, what an amazing conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, this was fun. Thank you for bringing it up.  31:54 Absolutely. I am going to give a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network like bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Guys have an amazing week and you know, you guys are absolutely worth our ROI. Absolutely have a good one. Bye, bye. Absolutely have a good one, bye, bye.  32:11 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. 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BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza and Lau Lapides join forces in this episode of the VO Boss Podcast for another installment of their Boss Superpower Series. They tackle a topic often considered taboo in the voice acting industry: voiceover as a hobby. This discussion explores whether pursuing voice acting without the pressure of a full-time income carries a stigma. The episode delves into concerns about hobbyists "taking away" jobs, examines the true meaning of commitment, and highlights how to embrace a voiceover journey for pure creative joy, whether it's a primary career or a cherished passion. Listeners will discover why being a BOSS means defining success on one's own terms. 00:01 - Anne (Host) Hey guys, it's Anne from VO Boss here.  00:03 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) And it's George the Tech. We're excited to tell you about the VO Boss. Vip membership, now with even more benefits.  00:10 - Anne (Host) So not only do you get access to exclusive workshops and industry insights, but with our VIP plus tech tier, you'll enjoy specialized tech support from none other than George himself.  00:21 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) You got it. I'll help you tackle all those tricky tech issues so you can focus on what you do best Voice acting. It's tech support tailored for voiceover professionals like you.  00:32 - Anne (Host) Join us guys at VO Boss and let's make your voiceover career soar. Visit voboss.com slash VIP-membership to sign up today.  00:43 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  01:02 - Anne (Host) Hey, hey everyone. Welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am here with the Boss Superpower Series with the one and only Lau Lapides.  01:12 - Lau (Guest) Hey, Anne.  01:13 - Anne (Host) And Lau 01:14 - Lau (Guest) Love being here, as always. Love it, oh, Lau, it's so good to see you. What would a Saturday be without being in the booth with Anne?  01:22 - Anne (Host) Really, I know, right, I mean it would not be a Saturday, I know right it wouldn't, but sometimes on Saturdays I have other hobbies that I like to do, actually, because now it's actually horse show season and every once in a while I have to go out of the studio and go watch my horse shows, because back in the day.  01:39 - Lau (Guest) I used to own a couple of horses and that was like a passion and a love of mine.  01:46 - Anne (Host) Are you a derby girl? Do you get into the Kentucky Derby? I'm not a derby girl, I'm a horse show girl, a jumper. So, yeah, I mean, I can watch a race, but I'm much more enthralled by watching horses jump over things.  01:56 But speaking of hobbies and alternate passions and other passions we talk about voiceover as a full-time career all the time. Passions we talk about voiceover as a full-time career all the time, but there's a taboo topic about voiceover as a hobby. Maybe we should discuss that, laura. How do you feel about that? Is there a stigma around voiceover as a hobby in our industry?  02:19 - Lau (Guest) I think there is and it took me a while to actually let it come to the front of my brain that that was a real thing that people were distancing themselves from the notion of well, I'm in it to win it. I have to do it full time, I have to make a living and I have to do it like now, and the options are really there on the table for you, whether you would call it a full-time or full-time contractor position, whether it's a part-time and fills the holes in your schedule, in between your other lives, or whether it's a hobby, something creative, something joyful, something you love to do, but it's really not about money.  03:01 - Anne (Host) Well, okay, so let's just talk about the elephant in the room, right? Those that do voiceover as a hobby, right, could potentially be seen as taking away jobs from those people who do this for a living. And so those are the people that I think I see other people talk about them in different groups and Facebook groups and forums about how, oh, are you doing voiceover for a career or a hobby? Because if it's a hobby, then poo-poo, and so there's usually kind of a look of disdain upon those people doing it as a hobby. But I like how we're entertaining the thought of it because, I mean, there's lots of reasons why you want to get invested in voiceover, and not all the time is it to make tons of money and pay the mortgage. I mean, sometimes maybe you're in retirement and you just want a creative outlet, or maybe not even retirement, you just want a creative outlet. And do you feel, Lau, that this is taking away jobs from those of us who do it full time? What are your thoughts on that?  04:01 - Lau (Guest) No, in fact I got to be honest with you, Anne that didn't even come to my mind. It didn't come to my mind because I feel like best person wins the game.  04:10 And if you're in the game to win it and you're serious about it, there's going to be work for you, there's going to be jobs for you. To think about people who are not earning money or living as taking away your work to me is very strange, because it's like, well, it's a capitalistic market. It's like I have to train, I have to have my tools in place, I have to have my protocols and etiquette, I have to know everything that I can know to compete. But can I control the market? Can I control who's in the market? No Right, absolutely. That's true of every industry. I mean, how many times? Let's be honest.  04:43 - Anne (Host) And that's a really good point, laura, wait, wait, I got an honest point for you.  04:46 - Lau (Guest) How many times and listeners, be honest with yourself have you had a problem with your light bulb and your Uncle Harry, who's a retired electrician maybe, is going to fix it for you? Okay, well, you say, of course, let him fix it, sure. Well, he said, of course, let him fix it, sure, I don't even have to pay him. That's really great, wonderful. Well, the reality is is he took away a job from an electrician who's on the market right now. Who would love to get that job? Sure. But the reality is it's like we're built on relationships. We're built on the history of knowing people.  05:19 So not everything is going to be about a competitive job.  05:21 - Anne (Host) Such a great point. I mean and we talk about it in casting all the time I mean, sometimes they choose to go a different direction. Well, what is that other direction? Well, maybe their niece or nephew does voiceover, or maybe it's a friend of theirs that wants to give it a shot, and so, in reality, we don't really have control over that aspect of it. As to the decision of the casting, Again it's like who gets the job?  05:46 I mean is it always the best that gets the job? No, not really. No, sometimes it's just the most convenient or the one that's the cheapest.  05:53 And that is not necessarily our decision or under our control, so I love that you brought that up. I'd like to discuss the fact that I've had students who have tried voiceover and they've tried different genres. Of course you know I have specific genres that I work on and they've decided. You know what. I'm not so sure that voiceover is for me because they find out maybe it's not quite as enjoyable as they thought, or maybe I'm given homework, so maybe they're like I don't want to do Anne homework, so you know what I don't think I'm going to do voiceover anymore, but sometimes you don't know until you explore the path of creative journey.  06:29 - Lau (Guest) You just don't know.  06:30 - Anne (Host) And then all of a sudden, it's like you know what? I don't love it as much as I thought I was going to and therefore, maybe they have a great voice and we would be, maybe, as coaches, saying oh my God, you have a fabulous voice and you're natural at it and maybe they're just like you know. Okay, if I get asked to do it, so I mean there are all sorts of reasons.  06:47 - Lau (Guest) It isn't an all or nothing type of a trade. And besides, if you equate it to any other arts that are out there, like, does that mean I can't paint a painting without selling it? Does that mean I can't create a pot without selling the ceramics? Does that mean I can't dance without getting a job at dancing? It sounds kind of silly when you put it that way, but a lot of us consider it not just a trade but an art form. So to do it as an art form for the creative force of strengthening your voice and communicating and doing all the things that we do in voiceover, I think it's a missed opportunity to not do it because you think it is only meant to be a job and make money. It's also an art form.  07:31 - Anne (Host) And again, yeah, I'm a big believer about it's all about the journey, really not about the end point. Sometimes there's a lot of self-discovery in voiceover because it is a creative. Actually, I think all jobs are creative for the most part. Or they can be made creative or they can be thought of as creative. You can construct them as creative if you want, and so some are just a little more. I would say they lean more towards the creative field where you have more freedom of it. But I think a lot of times it's a journey and that's a wonderful journey to be on. I think we all go through some sort of a creative journey in our lives.  08:08 Absolutely and this is one that can really help you get in tune with yourself, because it is something that is directly in tune with ourselves, our voice.  08:17 - Lau (Guest) Yeah, and not only is it a fun challenge, but it is just that it can be just pure fun. If you get in the booth and you're doing, let's say, an animation character and you love character work, you may be doing that for the sheer benefit of doing it, the process of doing it, sharing with others that you've done it, listening back, enjoying the fun factor of it. You may or may not book that, that may or may not be a job for you, but it is part of that. You used the word journey that you can really have in yourself for other things Like what if you're a teacher? What if you're an educator? What?  08:53 if you are someone who is, or a therapist, or even a doctor, well, you would take these pop moments in your life and you can use them as part of your story, to connect with your audience, to connect with your customers, whoever they are.  09:09 - Anne (Host) Absolutely, and you know our journeys as we go along and I talk about this frequently is I use every part of my life experience in voiceover, and so voiceover is also a part of my life experience, and so I can use that in many ways other than just voiceover. I can, just as you mentioned, to be a better communicator, to really learn more about myself and to evolve, and so I really think that voiceover as a hobby is absolutely something we can entertain. And hey look, who's the pot calling the kettle black? Is that the phrase?  09:40 I have lots of different divisions of my business because I follow lots of different passions and that doesn't mean that voiceover is part-time for me. I mean, my main function here is voiceover. But there are lots of passions that I follow and, for example, my little foray into fashion. There's lots of fashion influencers out there that do it full-time. That might think, oh, who's this girl? Every once in a while I see a post from her and she's not really a fashion. I don't even like to say the word influencer. I just say I want to share my passion for fashion and hey, if I can make a little side income that's cool, but if not, it's not a big deal. I love the creative aspect of curating outfits.  10:19 - Lau (Guest) To me, what it comes down to is the gestalt of how much just as human beings, unfortunately we still love labeling.  10:26 We're very much designer in that way. We want to label people. We want to label what they do, what they have, what they are. We want to type them quickly so that it's easy for us to know oh, this is the girl that does that, this is the guy that does that, whatever. And the labeling can be very detrimental to us, because I see this all the time, with new voiceover talent coming in and actors coming in saying, oh, but this coach told me I need to do that and I need to be invested in this way and I need to be put in this net. And I said well, wait a second.  10:57 That is someone's interpretation of what this career is, based on their own subjective frame of reference. It has nothing to do with you. You've got to figure out your life. You've got to figure out your level of commitment, how you feel about it. In copy, we call it point of view. What's your point of view about this? It's sort of like we want to come in and it makes it easy for us if someone can label us. If they can label us, then we can follow the cookie cutter path of what we're supposed to do. But it's not that kind of career. Artistic careers are not that kind of career.  11:33 - Anne (Host) And again along those lines, is there a path to being a part-time voiceover talent? Is it a requirement that they get training, that they get a demo, that they do all of those things? That typically what we would suggest and recommend that they do for full-time?  11:49 - Lau (Guest) I honestly don't think anything is a requirement. I think it's only a requirement if you're trying to reach a particular level of your craft or career, and then you kind of have to do the due diligence of research. Oh well, if I'm going to use this as a career, then I know I need a demo of this kind. But if I'm not, if that's not my objective and I'm honest about that, I feel really good about that I may or may not need that, I may or may not. Right, it's a different level. I mean, a hobbyist has a different level of everything compared to a professional, sure, and the expectations can be very different as well.  12:26 - Anne (Host) Well, I'll tell you something that my level of commitment to back. When I was younger, riding horses right. It wasn't a job for me. I wanted it ultimately someday to be a job.  12:36 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) You loved it, but I loved it.  12:38 - Anne (Host) I followed my passion and I spent hours. I mean hours and hours and hours. I mean thousands of hours, tens of thousands of hours riding and practicing, and so I don't think you can put a label on oh, you're part-time, so it's a DIY demo. They're not training, they're getting their instruction on the internet. I hear a lot of talk like that and it's really it's negative talk. I'd like to say hey, guys, if you want to explore voiceover, if you have other passions that you want to pursue and you just want to do voiceover part-time, it's absolutely okay. There's no straight path to get there. There's no. You have to do this, you must do this to become a part-time voiceover talent. There's only recommendations on what might work for your journey to evolve and to get better.  13:24 - Lau (Guest) Absolutely. I think that's true of probably every profession that's out there. I think it applies to anything that you want to do. It's like as you move up the ladder, as you go level to level, you learn more about what the expectations are, what the industry standards are, what your competition has and utilizes to book work. But to come into it and to have this false or artificial notion of, oh, I should be doing this, I want to be, that Everyone told me I should be doing this. Well, listen, do you want to be in the cool kids group? Do you want to be in the cool clicky? You know everyone is cool or do you want to be true to yourself?  14:04 - Anne (Host) Right Like do you want to be?  14:05 - Lau (Guest) literally true to your own voice is the question. Yeah, absolutely. You can have many experts and professionals helping you along the way, but it's not about being in the cool kids club.  14:15 - Anne (Host) Yeah, and you know, what's so wonderful about that is that it's freeing, right? If I think about my alternative hobbies, that I do, right, I don't care what people think about me when I'm doing my hobby, I mean, and that allows me to experience more joy. I think Sometimes, oh, I've got a dedicated path to a full-time career and therefore here's what I should do in order to achieve that path, and then I can be judged. But when I decide I'm going to just do this for my own fun, for the creative journey of it, guess what? I tend to not think about what other people think of me and that, oh my gosh, as full-time voiceover talent, if we could, as actors, if we could just employ that attitude where you don't necessarily care what other people are saying about you, especially if it's negative, then I think that's a wonderful thing.  15:03 - Lau (Guest) You know, it brings us back to kids being kids, and like I don't mean kids at 10. I mean no, I mean younger, I mean like the under five crowd. It's like they're just not aware of what someone else thinks in regards to their playtime.  15:20 They're so invested in their imagination and their moments in their mind that they can shift and pivot to. I can be a king, I can be a dog, I can be a truck, I can be right, Like the possibilities of the magic. What if right? I can be anything I want to be and I don't have to worry about the outcomes of it, Like we're not into outcomes yet at that stage of the game. If we could have a moment of going back to that and just honestly play and be present and enjoy those moments without worrying about the outcomes, what people are saying, what people are thinking, then you're really going to free yourself to do your best work, yeah.  16:00 - Anne (Host) It just makes me think of like the judgment sometimes that I see that has passed on a part-time voiceover or voiceover people that are not necessarily studying under a coach or they're doing their own demo or they're auditioning for jobs that pay low. And if you're doing it as a hobby and typically if it's a hobby you're not always needing to make money from it. It's really just again, it's your creative expression, it's your enjoyment, your joy. You're not necessarily having to make a huge salary off of it. So then we kind of get to the point where, okay, are they bottom feeding the market? Are they bringing down the value of what it is that we do? Full time Lau.  16:44 - Lau (Guest) I don't know how to answer that, because I think the world is so large. Do full-time Lau? I don't know how to answer that, because I think the world is so large and the compartmentalization of all the different genres, all the different budgets, all the different potential clients are vast. They're huge. So I don't think there's one answer to that.  16:59 One of the biggest problems that I see as a coach is people coming in who are really hobbyists, who are treating it like they're going to make a living at it and really starting to unpeel the onion and decipher. Well, wait a second, can we be honest about this? This is not your career. Why? Because I'm looking at the time you commit, I'm looking at your level of investment, I'm looking at your strategy. I'm looking at your strategy. I'm looking at your talent. I'm looking at all these things that are the pivotal markers of a career person.  17:33 Right, they're not there yet. You're still in hobby mode. Do you realize that? Right, like, well, wait, can't I write this off on my taxes? Can't I get all of that? I said yes, if you work. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yes. If it becomes a business for you, have income against it, right? So I think the bigger issue in my mind not to divert away from your original question, but the bigger issue is that gap in people's minds between what they think they should be doing and want to be doing and what they're actually doing. And what they're actually doing quite oftentimes is what a hobbyist would do.  18:09 - Anne (Host) And then there's a lot of people I know that are like well, I want to be able to pay for my investment. So if they're coaching or if they're, even if they're doing it part-time and they're going to get a demo, they're like, well, I want to work so I can pay for this demo. And that is where I think that gray area is, because it's difficult for people unless they have a certain level of talent that's just innately without coaching or without having a great produced demo, because, you know, I always put my stamp of approval on that, you know, being transparent as a coach and demo producer. But there's a lot of people who don't necessarily. They want to be able to work so that they can pay for their investment in their hobby, because hobbies can be expensive, right, hobbies can be expensive.  18:55 - Lau (Guest) Exactly, exactly. But I asked the question and I always put it in another context because when you're too close to something, you oftentimes can't see it right. So if I say, okay, that makes sense. Now, if you're going to become attorney and you're going to be in Lau school for three or four years, why don't you work as an attorney and make the money so you?  19:14 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) can pay for Lau school. They say well, that's kind of crazy.  19:17 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) They're not going to let me do that.  19:18 - Lau (Guest) I haven't passed the bar. I don't have any credits. I said right, Are you going to work as a dentist as you go through dental? It's the same thing, Exactly.  19:27 - Anne (Host) That mindset, that's a great analogy.  19:29 - Lau (Guest) I'm like this should be easy for me to do. I should be able to get it so I can pay for my coaching. Say no, the investment in the education comes first. Yeah, and then you go out and look for the work, yeah, and it's like any good hobby.  19:41 - Anne (Host) I mean gosh, so many hobbies I had. But when, I think about when I was a young girl riding horses right? Well, I had to pay for my lessons, I had to pay for my own saddle, I had to pay for my riding outfit, I had to pay entry fees into the shows that I was competing in, and so my hobby was competitive. My hobby was I really dove deep and it was expensive, and my parents didn't let me forget that. But, I was so fortunate.  20:08 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) I always tell people.  20:08 - Anne (Host) well, I worked at the stable so I could work off my lessons, and so that took care of maybe a portion of the payment.  20:15 But my parents knew that I was invested because I was like, oh, and I spent all my time at the stables. I mean I shoveled enough manure to get some good background and investment into my passion, yeah. But I mean, in reality, I mean I invested as much, if not more, I think, into my hobby and then kind of knowing, when I got old enough to go to college, well then I had to go study for a real job.  20:39 But times have changed now right A little bit, so it's just gotten to the point where I love that I've always been able to follow my passions. Not everybody is there at a young age or can follow their passions throughout their life. I've always been fortunate, I think, that I've had this kind of gut to follow my passions in lots of different ways and figure out how I can still pay the bills while I do that, but you were very always pragmatic in understanding that you needed a survival job, exactly you needed to be hustling throughout.  21:09 - Lau (Guest) So, whether it was in your field or whether it was something totally unrelated, that was like a given to you. You were taught that you understood the work ethic of that, so that, I think, separates the hobbyists from the professionals in that.  21:22 - Anne (Host) But the good thing is is I feel like I have always been able to follow a passion where the money can help me pay the bills. And so, however, I fixated on that passion, like, for example, I was good at school, right, so I went to college and I studied engineering because people told me I should, right, but then I got into a job where I was designing creative, three-dimensional artificial hip and knee prostheses, and that creative like, oh, I got to be an engineer and that creativity was like it was my passion, right, following a creative, following something that allowed me to be creative and then ultimately getting into teaching.  21:58 After that right, sharing my love of I'm so excited about this, let me share it. And that was following that passion. And then I was able to teach. And so I think there are people at different stages of their life that all of a sudden say, oh, I need a creative outlet. Where they haven't really looked at where is their creative outlet now.  22:18 And I think people always have a creative outlet. They just don't expand upon it if they can or think about it in terms of it being a creative outlet. But at any given stage of life they get to a point where they say I want to be more creative. That's the majority of people that come to me that say they want to learn voiceovers. Gosh, you know, I'm just looking for something. I hate my job or I'm just looking for something that allows me to expand my creativity and that is following a passion. And at whatever stage you're at the passion and at whatever stage you're at, I don't think it matters whether you decide to do that full-time or part-time. It is a journey of creative experience for you.  22:52 - Lau (Guest) Yeah, I just think one of the bigger mistakes that I see happen and it happens all the time as I meet people is that they mistake the idea that they can quit their day job and leave their life and leave everything and just become a full voiceover.  23:06 Talent and as a contractor. It's just not going to happen that way. It really just isn't. It's not going to happen as any kind of a contractor, let alone this kind of. So you really have to be honest about that. And, like I, have a talent who has worked for a company, an insurance company, for like 10 years or a long time as their spokesperson, as their voiceover. She does nothing else. She does nothing else. She does nothing else. She just had a baby. She'll probably have another baby. She aspires to do more, but in my heart of heart I know she won't. I know she won't because when she hits the level of time and energy that it would take to do that, she stops. She can't go past that and I say be happy, be happy, be fulfilled, be okay with that. If that's what you can do and what you want to accomplish, don't keep pushing for the moon and the stars when the reality is is you're not wanting to really do the work to get to the moon and the stars.  24:05 - Anne (Host) I love that you say that, because some people don't realize it. Some people don't realize it that they don't want to do the work and they say they want to and they, but they don't. But they really don't, they really don't. And here's the deal, guys. I mean, I got out of a corporate job, right. I got out of it and you think oh, it's going to be easy.  24:23 Right, this should be easy. Now, if you're performing and you're being the actor and it feels easy to you because I want to make a distinction here and it feels easy, well, you've probably put in the hours and you're definitely in that moment where you are acting and it seems like it's easy. But in reality the amount of hours you had to put in probably to get there may or may not have been easy. That's right. When it becomes easy and it feels good, then you know you're in that creative moment right where you're expressing your creativity. But to get to the moments where you can do that more often than you have to actually run the business because we talk about that's the work.  25:02 A lot of the work that has to go into it is the business aspect of it, which is why we have this podcast right. There's the whole business aspect, which requires more work than I ever put into my corporate job and I put in a lot of work in my corporate job. I worked three jobs, probably overtime, but I put more work into this full-time voice acting gig than I ever put into my corporate job and I put a lot of work in my corporate job.  25:27 - Lau (Guest) Because you love it. Because you love it, there's a passion, there's an honesty about it. You love it, you want to do it right. It's there for you. I got to tell you I'm a little jealous sometimes of the lives lived gone by that I had as well, where we were doing like community theater, we were doing things that had no money involved, no end game involved, other than the actual experience of doing it and just loving it, just like being, and we were rehearsing every night. We would do it for three, four months and then we would do one weekend of shows you know what I mean and I say, oh wow.  26:04 Sometimes I really miss those days, Anne, because that was the most honest, yeah most honest moments of I want to do this, I love doing this, I love being with the people and I'm doing it. That has ever been in many lives. Once we get tainted a little bit with oh, I have to make, money, I have to make money.  26:26 - Anne (Host) We got to pay the bills right. We got to pay the bills. If we didn't have to pay bills in our lifetime, wouldn't it be nice. We've got to pay the bills right, we've got to pay the bills. If we didn't have to pay bills in our lifetime, wouldn't it be nice. What would? Our world look like if we didn't have to pay bills, If we could just do what it was that we felt was our calling and have creative exploration.  26:42 - Lau (Guest) I also think though, if we're being honest, we do use money as a marker.  26:46 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) As a motivator. It's a motivator too it's incentive.  26:49 - Lau (Guest) It also feels really good when you earn money for something you love to do or do. Well, it feels really good. There's a rightness about it. Should it be all about that? Probably not. Yeah, probably not, because I think you can lose the luster very easily of why you came into it in the first place.  27:09 - Anne (Host) Yeah, I feel like the money is a good motivator. And it's interesting because I say to people like for me, I love the business of voiceover, because I love to see how I can make money, like in many different ways. And it's not necessarily that I well, I love money. I can say I love money but it's not important that I have to have a ton of it, but it's the creative challenge of making money. That's a whole other show, Anne. That's a whole—we've got to do a show on that.  27:35 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) How much do you love?  27:36 - Lau (Guest) money, because I'm telling you, this is like one of our top ten taboo lists that we're creating. Yeah, absolutely, the hobbyist on the taboo list Money. It's okay to love money on the taboo list. There's probably other stuff too that we'll think of along the way, but it's like we're trying to dispel this. It's not even a myth. It's true that you are made to feel this way in our society and it's not accurate. You don't have to feel that guilt. You don't have to feel bad about loving to do something and not wanting to make money at it, absolutely.  28:08 - Anne (Host) Or even if you want to make money at it, you don't have to feel bad. And so you guys bosses out there. You don't have to do full-time voiceover to be a boss. You can absolutely pursue part-time voiceover and be a boss and be the best boss that you can. So great conversation, laura.  28:26 - Lau (Guest) I love that we fixed that one.  28:28 - Anne (Host) Yeah right, that was a goodie. I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network like bosses. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Bosses have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. See you next time.  28:44 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast-to-coast connectivity via IPDTL.