BOSSes Anne Ganguzza and Tom Dheere, your "real bosses" and co-hosts, connect to dive deep into the critical world of online security and scam prevention for voiceover professionals. They unpack Tom's recent harrowing experience with an AI voice cloning scam, offering a candid look into the crucial insights needed to navigate digital threats and build a truly secure business in today's landscape. Listeners will discover the essential role of vigilance and proactive measures in protecting their assets, gain an understanding of emerging scam tactics, and appreciate the power of community in safeguarding their careers. Anne and Tom also discuss practical pathways for secure transactions and the evolving nature of digital defense.
00:01 - Anne (Host) Hey guys, it's Anne from VO BOSS here.
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00:45 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Hey, hey, everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast.
01:04 - Anne (Host) I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza. Hey, hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with my real boss, Tom Deere. I had to think about that, Tom. We've been together so long. I was like what is our subtitle here? We are real bosses.
01:20 - Tom (Host) Yeah, we're real bosses. Thanks for having me back, Anne.
01:23 - Anne (Host) How are you doing, Tom, my real boss? Co-host.
01:26 - Tom (Host) All things considered, I'm doing okay, I had a weird experience recently which it seems like a lot of voice actors are experiencing. I got an email from someone expressing interest in wanting to cast me for a voiceover project. Oh yes, I looked at it and it was this long-form project, something like 9,000 and change words. And I looked at it and I'm like and you know I was reading the ins and outs of it and I'm like, huh, like my spider sense was tingling a little bit, but I'm looking at, I'm like this one is worth replying to and getting some information about.
02:00 So there was a little bit of back and forth about it.
02:03 - Anne (Host) So you did reply, and then there was.
02:05 - Tom (Host) There was more conversation.
02:06 - Anne (Host) Yeah, there was more conversation, which is what I always do when I'm trying to find out more information about a job to make sure it's legit.
02:12 - Tom (Host) Right Now, around the same time, maybe a couple of days after that, someone posted on a Facebook group hey, I got this email. It was saying this and this Did anyone else get it? Does it seem legit? And it looked like it was the same email that I had gotten, so I was following that it turns out.
02:28 It was posted by our friend, bridget Real, who is the co-founder of VA for VO, the virtual assistant site that helps voice actors, and we talked about it a little bit and we're both like, yeah, we're going to keep digging a little bit and see what's going on. And then her business partner, lynn, also got the email and I was getting ready to accept it just to see what would happen. And that morning I got a message from her saying hey, did you accept this project? Yet I'm like no, why? And she said because both of us accepted the project. We both got cast for the same exact project. We both got the same exact script. They sent me the script.
03:00 So then I did this. I went to Gemini, google Gemini, which is my AI bot of choice, and I did the prompts. I said you are an expert at detecting scams. Please analyze this script and let me know if you think that this script could be used to harvest a voice actor's voice to clone it. A voice actor's voice to clone it. And it did its analysis and I've got like the 2.5 advanced. So it takes a little time. And it wrote back oh, yes, it does. And here are all the reasons why this, this, this, this, this, this and this. And then I sent that information to Bridget and Lynn and they're like we knew it. We knew it. So then she created a wonderful post on LinkedIn talking about it. And then I wrote a blog with all the information and, like what happened, it was the most read blog I've had in like three years or something like that.
03:52 Yeah, it was crazy.
03:53 - Anne (Host) What's so interesting is it could have been a legit job, like for payment. You would have done it, they would have paid you for it, but they would have used your voice as an AI voice.
04:05 And so therefore, legally right in the end. Right, if you found out later on they could say, oh no, no, no, we paid you. I mean, it was a job that we paid you for and there was no extenuating circumstances or contracts to be signed which, by the way, I'm going to bring up Nava and the AI writer For all your jobs. You should be attaching that AI writer so that your voice is not going to be used as an AI voice, for sure, for sure.
04:37 - Tom (Host) So, to let everybody know, the website was GigLumin G-I-G-L-U-M-I-N. And if you do a Google search of GigLumin and this is what Bridget had figured out is that the website was only a month or two old. And there's these scam websites that you can enter the URL of a website in and it can tell you how likely that's a scam. It checked every red flag, every box, every single box.
04:56 - Anne (Host) So, yes, vo people, bosses, beware, right. So beware of emails. And you know, it's funny because it's lately, just because of the whole AI thing. Anytime I get an email with a job from someone that I don't know, right, that is just out of the blue, that I didn't audition for, where they have large amounts of words, the hairs on the back of my neck kind of stand up and I immediately, immediately check into it. And I think this really warrants a discussion, bosses, because it's very timely that you want to make sure that these jobs are legitimate. So the more research you can do. And I love, Tom Dheere, how you used AI to fight AI Again.
05:37 We had our previous episode on tools that we use. I mean, we are utilizing it as a tool to help us in our day-to-day jobs, and so I think, being aware of possible scams out there, we absolutely have to be, and I'll tell you if it's somebody that I've never heard of and they don't have a signature file. I've gotten to the point where I don't even like and it's not like from a company.com. I don't even literally take it seriously anymore. I don't know about you, Tom, what do you think?
06:05 - Tom (Host) Yes, I'm equally skeptical these days but, I, really like what you said about when you receive the email, check to see if there is a signature at the Tom of it with the company logo, website and contact information. That is one of many red flags and I don't know how much you've noticed lately, Anne, but since I would say about early April, there has been an explosion of scam attempts going on in the voiceover industry. We've had the overpayment scam. That's been going on for at least 10 or 15 years.
06:37 - Anne (Host) Gosh, at least, and bosses. If you haven't heard about it, Tom, let's talk about the overpayment scam for just a minute. Yeah, yeah, Okay so what happens is it's very common.
06:45 - Tom (Host) It's very common. It's been going on for a really long time. So basically they email you and say hey, we've got a project for you, da-da-da-da-da-da. The classic one was the game show host voiceover.
06:55 - Anne (Host) It has since evolved.
06:56 - Tom (Host) And basically they say that we've booked a studio in the area nearby. We're going to get paid or pay for the studio and then send us back the difference and something like that. And it's never a gig.
07:12 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) All they're trying to do is get you to cash that check and send them money, which is fraudulent, by the way.
07:18 - Anne (Host) And, by the way, I've gotten to the point where, if I have a new client, the only way they can really pay me is electronically.
07:25 And I figure, if you don't have electronic means to pay me immediately before the job and it's even in my terms and I've done this for years, Tom, I always have payment in full prior to job start is appreciated and other options available upon request.
07:39 But if it's a new client, I'll take that out because I must have that money in my bank account before I will even consider finishing that job or sending a file. And I'll tell you what, Tom for all of my career it's worked for me Because if people are serious about hiring you, they know that you're a professional, they know that you're going to get the job done. Of course they have to put their faith in you. But in reality and I'll even say because you're a new client I require payment up front electronically. And here are the ways that you can pay me. And so I'll send them, like a QuickBooks invoice, or I'll give them a PayPal account or however that works, and I expect that money in the account and I wait for that money and I make sure that I have the money and then I'll proceed with the job.
08:21 - Tom (Host) That's a really good idea. There's nothing wrong with even asking for 50% or 25% or just some percentage of it. The fact that they're actually going to fork over money with no expectation of an overpayment or getting it back or disputing the payment or anything like that.
08:37 Once it clears, you know that they're serious. And there's a bunch of like. I use Wave apps, for example. That's a great way to do it and I'm pretty sure they can do a partial payment. Or you can just make one invoice just for the deposit and then issue another invoice for the balance If they're a legitimate client that actually has money that they're planning on paying you with, they would have no problem with paying at least a portion of it up front.
08:59 - Anne (Host) Yeah, a lot of my clients nowadays the larger clients that used to like work off of purchase orders, and then it would be like 90 days after the job has been submitted. We'd have to wait for that check, they'd have to generate the PO and everything. You'd sign contracts like vendor contracts and that sort of thing, which I've done a lot, and so if they've got a contract for you to sign, that's vendor, nda, that sort of thing, and you know the company. It's like a well-known company. They're on the web. They've been on the web for years. I mean you can pretty much trust in that where I'll do the job and then I'll get paid. If I've worked with them before, I know that's typically how larger companies work and so that's when I'll accept a check. But even now most of those companies they're going to electronic deposit, like ACH they call it.
09:42 ACH, yeah, so it's direct deposit to your bank and most of the companies I know will do that and that's a form of payment that I trust and that would be a client that I would trust. So if it's a larger company that I know they exist on the web and they talk about, well, you're going to have to do the job first and then we'll be able to pay you once the purchase order is created, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you sign these contracts. I feel fairly good about that and I don't have to think, oh, this is a scam. But whenever I get an email without an actual signature file that comes from an address that isn't companycom, right, if it's a Gmail or a Yahoo or whatever, even a Microsoft what is the free Microsoft one?
10:20 Hotmail, hotmail, yeah, even if it's Microsoftcom, I feel like there's some sort of free sort of Microsoft. You know what I mean Like email that says that I just don't trust it and I'll immediately. The first thing I'll do is look for a website and when I get to the website I'll look for a phone number and then I'll actually try to call that phone number. What are the steps that you take, Tom, to ensure that your job is legit?
10:41 - Tom (Host) Everything that you just said. I also, by the way, I do love the ACH direct deposit because there's no fee. When PayPal, there is a fee, or wire transfer. That's really nice. Here's one thing that I've been doing lately is, if I get a we'll call it a solicitation, for lack of a better term from a company saying hey, and it'll most often be we found you on Google, we found you on Voice123 or some other front-facing thing. You know what's an interesting thing to do? Go look for them on LinkedIn.
11:11 Look for them on LinkedIn. Look for the company and look for the individual and see if you have any mutual connections. I mean, it could be anybody, whether it's a voice actor or somebody in some other profession, and you can reach out on LinkedIn and say, hey, I got an email from this company and you have a connection with them on LinkedIn. What's your experience with them? And that could give you some really quick insight. Sometimes it's just like, oh, I've been working with them for years, or it's oh, they're a huge scam. I forgot to disconnect with them. Run, run, run. Or I'd sent a rando invite, or they sent a rando invite and I don't have any information for you. But it could increase your chance of vetting them a little bit better. Another thing is that I keep an eye out, for is if they ask me to send them a W-9, the more likely that they are legitimate.
12:00 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, which I find interesting because if they were a real, true scam artist, they would want that W-9, because now they would have your social security number and now they can steal your identity too.
12:11 - Anne (Host) Well, oh my gosh, Tom, and that's scary actually, but that's why you don't put your social security number. You put your EIN number, because you're a company right, and you don't have to give up your EIN number, which is, by the way, one thing. I'm glad you mentioned that like we should all be having an EIN number. I'm glad you mentioned that, like we should all be having an EIN number.
12:30 - Tom (Host) Yes, it's very, very simple to get. It takes very, very little time. So it's a very easy get. I just reminded myself and we just talked about identity theft is that I almost had my identity stolen yesterday.
12:43 - Anne (Host) Whoa, that's scary. Yes.
12:45 - Tom (Host) How do you?
12:46 - Anne (Host) know like what happened.
12:51 - Tom (Host) Okay, so it was about a little after 10 am yesterday is when things started happening, so within a few minutes of each other, I got an email from Credit Karma, norton which, because I have my Norton 360 antivirus software package, I pay a subscription through that and Experian. For those of you who don't know, there are three major credit bureaus there's Experian, there's TransUnion and there's Equifax. I have a free account with Experian and I have a free account with Credit Karma. All three of them, within a few minutes of each other, messaged me and said that there was a hard inquiry.
13:30 - Anne (Host) Yeah.
13:30 - Tom (Host) So what that means is if you are applying for a loan, a mortgage, a credit card or something like that, the company that you're applying to will do a credit check. So they will check your credit and see if you are a safe credit risk to make the loan or to get the credit card, for this was a hard inquiry. If you get enough hard inquiries on your credit, your credit will go down.
13:55 - Anne (Host) Yeah, absolutely. I know that because I'm a stickler about my credit.
13:59 - Tom (Host) Me too. My credit rating, oh my gosh. If mine isn't at least 800, something I freak out, oh my gosh.
14:04 - Anne (Host) Yeah, no, mine has to be like almost close to perfect, and when it goes down like two points, I'm like wait why? Why did that happen? Right? And it's just because you put a charge on it for a few hundred dollars, and then you pay it off next week and then everything's fine, so that's normal.
14:18 - Tom (Host) So all three of them told me at roughly the same time that there was a hard inquiry. So I clicked on all the emails and all three of them said that somebody was applying for a Discover credit card, I think in Salt Lake City, and someone was applying for a Capital One credit card in Delaware, and I was in New York City neither applying for a Discover credit card or a Capital One credit card. I certainly wasn't in Salt Lake City or Delaware at the same exact time.
14:49 - Anne (Host) You know, what's so interesting, Tom, is that, like I don't know, a few months ago I don't know if there was a discussion circulating or maybe I got an email but somebody said, and like I should have done this years ago, I mean you can freeze your account so that if you don't open up a credit card every other day which I'm certainly not right Because again, it affects my credit rating and I'm anal about that and so I'm like well, I don't need to apply for any other credit cards, so you can go and freeze that, so that you can actually reduce the risk of somebody trying to open up credit cards or identity theft.
15:19 So and it's super simple to do it, as I said, everybody should have that free account. You should log in, you should check your credit scores regularly I think they allow you once a month, I think even my credit cards. My American Express will tell me oh, your FICO score has changed, right, so they're monitoring it too, and so literally, I get lots of notifications when that rating goes up and down. But I know that I've reduced my chances of identity theft, which is a very scary thing, by freezing those accounts and it's very simple to unfreeze. So, if you know you want to apply for a credit card. You just got to go and unfreeze it for a certain amount of time so you can apply for it and then freeze it back up again. So that way it reduces the risk.
15:57 - Tom (Host) And all those emails that I got, all those notifications did give me the option to do that. I was also able to say this because it, literally, when Norton 360 popped up and it took me to their website, it literally said is this you and you can check yes or no? And I wrote no and then the whole screen turned red saying okay, we know this is a problem, we will look into it.
16:17 It did it with all those and then I called Capital One Bank. It took me a few people. It had to get escalated a couple of times to the credit card fraud department.
16:25 - Anne (Host) Well, don't you say, they give you a special number, right?
16:27 - Tom (Host) They say call this number if it's not you, or you can call this number. I just called the general number because all that was on the notification, I think, was the Capital One in Salt Lake City or something like that. So I called directly and said please state your problem. I'm like I think I'm getting my identity stolen. And then it got up there and then they manually rejected the credit card application at least for the Capital One.
16:50 And then this morning I got another Credit Karma email saying that there was a check on my Equifax report not the Experian one and I looked at the date of it. It also said yesterday. So that means Credit Karma had my back twice and Experian had my back and Norton had my back twice. Right, right, and Experian had my back and Norton had my back and everybody bosses. This is the takeaway. Creditkarmacom is free, having an account with Experian is free, it doesn't cost you a nickel.
17:18 - Anne (Host) All of them TransUnion, they're all free TransUnion, Equifax, they're all free.
17:23 Exactly and you can check your scores and, like I said, a lot of banks and a lot of credit cards are actually adding that on as like a value add kind of service, but you don't have to pay anything for it. I think there's a lot of it going on, Tom, which is kind of scary. We got to be careful about scammers, that's for sure. And anytime, even in your email, right, if you get like again, if I find something that doesn't have a signature and then they have an attachment like PayPal has been well-known scams where you get like oh, you've got a PayPal invoice, right, and you have to pay this amount and it looks legit. I mean, they've got like the PayPal logo. I've gotten quite a few of those over the last six months.
18:01 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) And.
18:01 - Anne (Host) I just ignore anything. Just remember that most financial institutions will never email you for information and they'll never text you necessarily for that information either, and you should also, Tom. We should have a big discussion on having multi-factor authentication.
18:19 - Tom (Host) Yes.
18:19 - Anne (Host) This is extremely important.
18:21 - Tom (Host) It's annoying as hell or two-factor, two-factor authentication For every account that you have, especially the financial ones, you should have two-factor authentication, which means either they send you a text message and you just click on the link and you're good to go, or it sends you an email and it'll usually give you a passcode of some sort and then you go to the website. When you're trying to log on, you enter that passcode and then it'll let you do it, and most of them are only good. Some of them are only good for 30 days. Sometimes you can check a box saying this is my private computer. It's okay for a certain amount of time, or they make you do it every single time, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Yes, it's annoying.
18:55 - Anne (Host) You know what I just thought about. It is annoying but it keeps you safe. It's funny how much like value you put in that number, that phone number, in this phone which, by the way, I just got a new phone but in this number for the two-factor authentication, right Like text me at this number. So think of the power that these phone companies have right, and that is scary. I mean it used to be a thing where I always thought like the large scale communication companies were a little bit of a monopoly, depending on the area that you're in. I mean, when I lived in the East Coast it was always Verizon right, verizon everything, verizon this, verizon that. Out here it's a couple of different companies but still, if you think about it, I mean I'm glad to have the two-factor authentication and it's super convenient on the phone.
19:39 But, it's interesting to know that you wouldn't want the hackers to get smart right and then start really infiltrating the phone, you know, and impersonating a phone number.
19:50 - Tom (Host) There's a couple of things about that is that, when it comes to authentication, when you're logging on your phone, I've got it set up where I just use my thumbprint for a lot of it.
19:59 - Anne (Host) I love that, or Face ID yeah the Face ID is a great one.
20:05 - Tom (Host) There's also a thing for a lot of the websites where I have a personal PIN that has nothing to do with the PIN or the password to access the site itself. If I am using my phone to log in somewhere, I can enter a four-digit PIN that's different from everything else, so it also increases the chance of having a secure whatever. Also, just as a rule, I don't do anything financial on my phone, with the exception of like Venmo Well, I have mobile banking If I'm like sending money if, like me, and the guys are having pizza, you know what I mean.
20:31 - Anne (Host) I have mobile banking and I do have Apple Pay.
20:35 - Tom (Host) Well, I have GPay too.
20:36 - Anne (Host) Yeah, so.
20:36 - Tom (Host) I'm a Google guy but like I will unless to my bank accounts online or Wave app or Wise or PayPal on the phone, unless I absolutely have to.
20:49 - Anne (Host) Interesting. I go to them quite a bit. Actually, you're probably fine because of all the precautions that you're taking, but I'm just a little extra neurotic about it. Oh, it's constantly got multi-factor authentication, but I get that. I totally get that. Wow, yeah, being careful, and you know what.
21:02 What's interesting is, back in the day and I'm going to date myself when I was working at the school and we had text-based email okay, and text-based email, I could have something and it was all based on like the Unix systems and so like hacking into a text-based, like I don't know how to say this, but hacking into a system like that, like a Unix system, and reading your email with text-based, you didn't always have like the conditions of people attaching things that could be viral, loading a virus on your computer. So I was always proud to say that I used text-based email and I used something called a PGP signature, which was a digital signature at the time, which meant that when I sent mail out, my PGP signature, it would actually negotiate and verify with the person that I would send it to so that it could be a verified digital signature. That indeed, yes, this mail did come from me, and I think that Norton probably has something like that now right. Is that with your email or no?
21:59 - Tom (Host) Yeah, it has all kinds of functions.
22:01 And it works on my desktop and it works on my laptop and it works on my phone. The most important function that it has is when I'm not home and I'm on my phone or my laptop or my tablet is the VPN when you can turn it on to make sure that if you're using Wi-Fi at a cafe or something like that, that it's secure, because apparently there are people who just like sitting around at a Panera or a Starbucks with their laptop and just waiting for someone to have an insecure Wi-Fi connection and they can just steal their life right there through their own laptop.
22:31 - Anne (Host) Well, it's funny how this conversation has turned into a big security conversation, starting off with scamming. Which guys you got to be aware? It's one of the reasons why, for all of my years and because of my years working in technology, I like wired connections. I mean Wi-Fi. I mean it's a wonderful technology and it's convenient as anything. However, it's not as secure as a wired connection, because a wired connection is basically, you know, your digital numbers flowing back and forth along a wire, versus all this information out in the air where, if somebody is sitting outside of my home, they can possibly hack into my wireless network and then they can run some sort of a tracer to see and to actually get my passwords, which is something that you don't really want that to happen. So you should really be cautious, guys, and I think it's always a good idea that, if you are working from home, if you have the opportunity to have a wired connection to your router, I think that that's better rather than using Wi-Fi. Number one it's more stable, right, it's faster and it's also more secure.
23:32 - Tom (Host) I agree. If you have a desktop at home and you are doing any kind of recording or you're doing basically anything, you should have an ethernet connection. That yellow wire with the big old phone jack that plugs right into the back of your computer and plugs into your Wi-Fi router.
23:47 - Anne (Host) And it sounds old school, but it's still the most secure method of data transfer.
23:51 - Tom (Host) Without question so if you are recording from home. If you're doing whatever from home, you have a desktop ethernet. If you have a laptop, I are recording from home. If you're doing whatever from home, you have a desktop Ethernet. If you have a laptop, I think the newer laptops don't even have an Ethernet connection. I have to think about my laptop and whether I even have one anymore, and here's the simple reason.
24:06 - Anne (Host) Think about it. It's a wire, guys. It's a wire. It's not like data floating around in the air which people can listen to. Somehow the frequency of the data traveling in the air right? Wi-fi works on frequencies when your data is traveling via a wire like a physical cable, unless somebody like I don't even know, unless they tap into that wire, right, somehow.
24:26 I don't know how they do that, and we're talking about your wire in your house going from your computer to your router. Right, that's as secure as it gets, right, unless somebody's coming into your house and hacking into the wire and tapping into it.
24:38 - Tom (Host) You've got some foreign embassy bugging your home.
24:41 - Anne (Host) Yeah, yeah, doing some fancy work, you're not going to have to worry about your data being transferred. So if you're working on the internet right, at least the data that's transferring from your house to your router is absolutely secure. And then it's up to your internet provider right on the router, to their routers, to make sure that things are encrypted, things are secure and for the most part I mean that's been handled right. I mean there are hackers out there that they can hack into networks. They can hack into things like that, but you want to be as safe as you possibly can, so wired is best.
25:14 - Tom (Host) Yes, it's fascinating. We talk about hard security and soft security, yes, that's hard security, that's hard security.
25:20 - Anne (Host) So, if we go back to talking about the scams that are floating around these days, one thing I wanted to mention is I think one of the best applications for groups, facebook groups and social media groups and discussion groups is for that thing, so that you and Bridget were talking to one another about this job that you both got, and then it's really wonderful that we can come together as a community and protect each other right and say, hey, look, watch out for the scam. So it is one of the best advantages, I would say, of being a part of the social media groups in that way. Otherwise, we've talked about how it's hard to sometimes they're toxic, sometimes it's really hard to be on social media. But I would say one of the best reasons to be on social media, in those groups and in those forums, would be because of the protection that you're getting of us banding together and saying, hey, watch out, this is a scam.
26:09 - Tom (Host) Absolutely, it's one of the most important things. Community is more than just about you know rah rah and whoop whoop and you know we support you and feel better if you're feeling down, but like just actual education, along with inspiration and commiseration can literally save your identity Absolutely.
26:27 - Anne (Host) Wow, what a great conversation, Tom. So bosses out there, be aware of scams. Be cautious. Research, research. Take a look at those signatures when you get emails coming in, when you get something that's asking for lots of words and a good price and it seems too good to be true, guess what it might be. So make sure that you're communicating with the community as well, checking those jobs out and attach that AI rider to every one of your jobs. Now, it's simple. It's there at NAVA and it's free. You can attach that rider to every job. If you have a new client, make sure you're very careful with the payment options. You know we spoke about that. I always make sure I get money up front, or partial money up front, first to make sure that it's a legit client. What else did I miss, Tom, in this recap?
27:14 - Tom (Host) Hardware and software VPNs.
27:16 - Anne (Host) EINs yes.
27:19 - Tom (Host) Oh yeah, VPNs, EINs, Two-factor authentication.
27:20 - Anne (Host) I love it. Yeah, Make sure you guys are implementing all of that to keep yourself safe and secure. So great topic, Tom. I like geeking out like this.
27:30 - Tom (Host) Yeah, it's fun and helpful.
27:31 - Anne (Host) Yeah, I'm going to give a great big shout out to my sponsor, IPDTL. You too can connect and network like real bosses. Find out more at IPDTL.com. Guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week.
27:52 - Speaker 3 (Announcement) Bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution, with permission. Coast-to-coast connectivity via IPDTL.