The Copywriter Club Podcast

Brainstorming and creativity are often forgotten in the world of online marketing. We often jump straight into what will convert at the expense of the creative tools used by copywriters working in Ad Agencies around the world. In the 379th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with freelance advertising copywriter Shlomo Genchin about his processes for coming up with creative concepts that attract attention and engage readers and passers-by. Shlomo shared some great tips for finding better, bigger ideas for the work we do. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Have you noticed that the work most copywriters do doesn't exactly fall under the description of creative? Yeah, we write about ideas, hopefully big ideas, but the work of most copywriters is pretty common. It's like all of the other copy in their industry. So here's a test, choose a niche, doesn't matter which one, go to Google, find 10 companies in that niche and open up their websites. Then read the headlines. You can actually do this for the niche that you work in. Every time I do this, I'm amazed that about eight out of the 10 make pretty much the same promise in their headlines.  Now, usually it's something like save time, save money. They word it a little bit differently, but it's basically the same. And then the other two headlines are usually so bland that they're not really making any promise at all. They might be trying to describe what they do, but usually that even falls flat. And it's not just websites. With a few exceptions, ads look and feel the same. Even most content blurs into a vast mass of content schlock.  Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I interviewed creative copywriter Shlomo Genshin. Shlomo writes a lot about his creative process, how he comes up with ideas, and how to think more expansively when developing things like headlines, hooks, and more. It's really the answer to this everybody looks the same problem. It's something that copywriters and content writers around the world definitely need to be doing more of. So we think you're going to like this episode.  But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That's the membership for copywriters and content writers that includes not just training, literally more than a hundred hours of training on different topics, but actual feedback on your copy, as well as monthly coaching calls from mentors you can trust, where you can get the help that you need to grow your business. I'm not going to share all of the details here. You can find out more at thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu. That's TCU for The Copywriter Underground, where you can join and immediately expand your network of amazing copywriters who are all working to grow and build something bigger together this year. Okay, let's go to our interview with Shlomo. Shlomo Genchin: So I started just like a lot of people, I just started looking for ways to maybe to get rich online. You know, how to start a business, how to make money online. And I came across all those regular scammers that you would see. They would tell you, get rich in 10 days. And I bought one of those courses. And nothing came out of it, of course, because it was kind of scammy and not really possible to apply… to kind of implement all of that.  But one thing I learned there was copywriting. Like the magic of copywriting, you can basically persuade any person to buy anything. And it's so easy. You just need some words. And it's so simple. And I was like, that sounds interesting. I could sell anything in the world, do affiliate marketing, and whatnot. And then I just went to Google and looked up the best copywriting school in the world. And what came up was Miami Ad School in Berlin. So that's it.  And fast forward, I created a little portfolio, started working for some clients just to get some experience. And I got in. I flew to Berlin and I moved there and started studying copywriting. And then I saw that it was so different from what I've learned before, because it wasn't just about writing hooks, or catchy headlines, or anything like that. It was really about creating concepts, and ideas, and doing PR, and all the things that ad agencies today do. First of all, more interesting and second they're kind of different because they're not just about like persuading people making them buy things because you trick them into this or you were like so clever and all that. But because the work is actually interesting and entertaining and like that's kind of my approach to content and to all those things today as well. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't attend a portfolio school or an ad school when I started out, but I remember when I started my career a long time ago, seeing the ads for Miami Ad School, also VCU, some of the others that are out there. It's like, should I go? What will this add to my career? Tell us just a little bit more about that experience of attending an ad school, the kinds of courses that you took, and also the others that are there. Because it's not just copywriters. There's designers. There's producers, videographers. And how you work together, in some ways, my understanding is it's almost like a student advertising agency. Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, absolutely. It's exactly that. And you even take real clients at some point, like once you like learn the basics, you actually start taking clients like starting from like the second or third semester, which was pretty awesome. And I feel like it's like that experience was amazing, first of all, because They kind of approach education very differently. I guess it wouldn't be possible with other professions. You can do it in med school. You can start practicing right away. But in that school, it's pretty simple. Right from the start, they gave us real briefs. And teachers there, they're all working in ad agencies, and they all created directories. So they could also let us work on some briefs that their clients gave them and introduced us to startups and to interesting companies that we could work on. So that was pretty amazing. And I think in general, it's a very intense experience. I lived with a few roommates back then. during those times and like they just say like they didn't see me for two years basically because I was I was like either like you know at school or in my room just brainstorming all the time like it was such an intense experience and and you know like the school manager he would always say that the goal is to prepare us for the real world. And then once we get to an agency, it would be actually easier for us. Because working at an agency is also kind of intense. But then ad school, I think, is way more. You work all the time. You think all the time. Plus, you're not as experienced yet. So things are taking you way longer. Yeah. So eventually, it made me much, much better, I think. Kira Hug: Can you share contextually when you were in school, ad school, just so I have a better idea of, what those years were? Shlomo Genchin: Sure. Absolutely. So that was 2018 to 2021. Kira Hug: Okay. So let's continue the story then. So you leave school and what happens next? What does that process look like? Shlomo Genchin: Even before I leave school—all the, all the fun stuff happened while I was in school. because first of all, I got into this, into this internship at Ogilvy Berlin. And that was one of the greatest springboards I've ever had because I think something that's very special about this agency, I must say, and there are a few agencies like that, is that they would actually give you real work. You wouldn't be the intern who would look for stock photos or do anything like that. They would actually give you the most interesting briefs and give you an equal opportunity to crack them. And during that time, like during those like three months, you know, Wielder Berlin, I've done some of my best work. Like it was incredible. I've got that. I've got one brief for a ketchup company from Austria. And we won D&AD with those ads. And then, I think, got shortlisted and won some other awards. Anyway, but then we also had a brief for Burger King. And we won a bunch of awards for this one too, print ads. It was about our experience, basically, of all the creatives that worked on that. of how during that time during lockdown we would just sit outside and we would go out to eat and we couldn't like you know it was lockdown in Berlin and we couldn't like sit there at the restaurant or anything like that so we would have to take the food out and just improvise tables at different like random places you know so we would go to like I don't know just sit on the staircase or or like it's yeah just in the park or whatever And then when the lockdown was about to end, then Burger King asked us to create something that would talk about that. And we created this campaign where we just took pictures of people actually doing that thing on the street and said, proper dining is back. You can go back and eat at the restaurants. And that got a lot of words, a lot of views. And that was a really good beginning to my creative career. Rob Marsh: That's amazing. I am really curious about your brainstorming process. So, you know, you mentioned you get handed a brief and then, of course, that's what the work starts. You know, for most listeners who listen to our show, they're freelancers. They're usually not in an agency, although there are a few. So I'm curious about that process because I want to hear or I want to compare your process of brainstorming, coming up with ideas, concepts. hooks, headlines,

How do you get stuff done? What can you do to make sure your goals for the new year don't fall by the wayside. In the 378th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk about their strategies for accomplishing goals and resolutions and what they plan on getting done in the coming year. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. We mentioned a lot of books on this show: The Opposable Mind by Roger Martin The Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham A Million Miles in a Thousand Years by Donald Miller Who Do We Choose to Be by Meg Wheatley Breaking Together by Gem Bendell This One Wild and Precious Life by Sarah Wilson Quiet by Susan Cain Bittersweet by Susan Cain 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Steven Covey The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: We're a couple of weeks into the new year, and if you're like the average resolution setter, tomorrow is the day you quit. 17 days is the average length of time that goal setters, resolution setters, whoever, stick to their goals. And maybe you've already quit, given up on what you expected to get done this month or this year, or maybe you're still going strong. Either way, on today's episode of the Copywriter Club podcast, Kira and I are talking about what we do to make sure we get stuff done. and some of the goal setting fallacies that might keep you from accomplishing everything that you set out to do. Stick around to hear what we shared.  But before we get into all of that, this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters, content writers, and other marketers out there. given the value that you get for the very low price that you pay. There's a monthly group coaching call where Kira and I help you get answers to your business questions, your copywriting questions, whatever. We do a weekly copy critique where we take a look at what you've written and give you advice and insights and things that you might want to do a little bit differently. There are regular training sessions on copy techniques, business practices, everything designed to help you get better. And we even talk about AI and tools and things that you can do in order to stay on top of everything you're doing with AI. And that's on top of the massive library of training and templates that are there. The community is amazing. Lots of copywriters ready to help you with answers to any questions you have, even sometimes sharing leads. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/TCU.  All right, Kira, we're here just you and me again. and just chatting. It's the new year. I think I've got some goals of things I want to do. You've got some goals of things that you want to do in the coming year. You must have some. I know you're very goal oriented, but before we do all, before we talk about the new year, before we talk about, you know, what things we're thinking and maybe share some ideas that might help people get more done. If they're thinking about their goals, if they actually made resolutions, if they have a word of the year, any of that stuff. Let's just do a couple of warm-up questions. I want to find out a couple more things about you. Even though we've been working together for six or seven years, it's hard to believe there are still things I don't know. Kira Hug: Yeah, I know. I know. I guess we can always dive deeper in our relationship. Rob Marsh: Here we go. So first question, when's the last time you were really, really scared? Kira Hug: I mean, how scared are we talking? Rob Marsh: That's a good question because as I was thinking about this, the only time I am really terrified is in my dreams. I'm not sure that there's anything that terrifies me. that much in real life. But from my answer, I was thinking, okay, if I take away dreams, where the bad guys are always trying to kill me or chasing me or do whatever.  But when we were in New Orleans last year for our retreat with the think tank, there was a tornado warning and the tornado sirens went off at the hotel I was at, or it wasn't even a hotel. That was before I arrived. Yeah, I think it was before you got there. And I've been in one tornado before. I live in Salt Lake, so there's not a lot of tornadoes that come through here. The last tornado in Salt Lake City, I think, was in 1998, so literally 25 years ago. So hearing the sirens, the trees like banging against the windows and the place that I was staying, you know, looking around, it was a wooden structure, it wasn't like, you know, there was a brick wall or anything. And the tornado actually did touch down about a mile away from where I was staying. So I'm not sure that I was terrified.  But it's one of those times when that happened. And I'm looking around thinking, I'm not sure what to do in this situation, because it was so unfamiliar and so different from If there was an earthquake, I know exactly what to do because we have those occasionally in Salt Lake. We don't have tornadoes. Kira Hug: So what did you do? Rob Marsh: Well, for a while, I stood inside the bathroom. I know they say get inside a bathtub or whatever. I'm not sure that it would have saved me, though, because like I said, it was a wooden structure. But I kind of got into the middle. And I didn't actually get into the bathtub. But I was like there, like if the roof started coming off, that I could jump in. And so I just kind of sat there for 15 or 20 minutes waiting for something to happen. I don't know. So yeah, that's maybe the last time I was kind of scared or freaked out about something that I can really think of. Kira Hug: Yeah, I miss that. I guess I'm not bummed, but I miss that completely. And I arrived, I guess, the next day in New Orleans. That reminds me of when I was in Bali, I guess, I don't know if this was 2019, with my family, and that I experienced my first earthquake there. And that was terrifying, right? It's like, that's not something I've been exposed to. I've only heard about it. And when the ground is shaking, and you're in a hotel, and we weren't up that high, but it was that same feeling of like, oh, wait, what are we supposed to do? And I did the opposite of what you're supposed to do. I ran out and got the kids out, and we carried them out. And you're not supposed to do that. So good to know, but it was just disorienting when it's something that you're not familiar with. I wasn't, I should have been more prepared for it. But that was terrifying. So that would be one. And then also recently, Ezra almost chopped his fingers off. So he ran into the house. He was fiddling with the garage door, which is an old metal garage door. And I guess somehow his fingers got lodged in there, and then it slammed down. And he just ran into the house and was screaming for me and was just, he didn't want to look at his fingers because he thought they were gone. So he wanted me to do it to see if they were still there. That's when I realized that I could never be a doctor or a nurse. And I, I just, I can't handle those situations at all. But I thought he actually would be missing his fingers. They were fine. They were just bruised. So he survived. But I just don't do well with missing body parts. Like I'm not your go to person in that situation. Just don't come to me. Rob Marsh: I think in most couples, one person has to be the person that's responsible. Like is the one that deals with like broken bones or, or is at least calm when things happen and the other person can kind of freak out. Are you the freak out part? Kira Hug: I think I'm calm. I just don't, I just can't handle blood. So I'm calm and I, I don't even think I'm that calm. So I don't think either of us are calm. So we're kind of… Rob Marsh: You're a bad mix when it comes to that. Kira Hug: It's just a bad mix. But yeah, other than that, I mean, I read, I guess, I read a lot of pretty dark books about real life that scare me frequently. That's just kind of how I operate in life. Like I read one book every week that just terrifies me and it's not fiction. So I'm a regular. I'm just kind of scared about many different things. But I also like that's just how I function. It allows me to stay present. It allows me to feel kind of grateful for what I have when I'm constantly scaring myself with the future. And so I won't go through my book list, but there's some really depressing books in there. So that's just what makes me happy. Rob Marsh: While we're talking about books, I'm going to ask our second question then, which is, which books made you actually think the most? So not necessarily your favorite books, not necessarily the best books that you've read, but the books that have maybe changed the way that you think about something. Kira Hug: Yeah. Why don't you go first? Rob Marsh: I have a couple. When I was doing my MBA, somebody introduced me to a book called The Opposable Mind by Roger Martin. He was the business school dean at a couple of different universities, maybe Dartmouth, if I'm not mistaken, or University of Toronto. I can't remember. Maybe both. But The Opposable Mind is a book that really changed the way that I started thinking about brainstorming and coming up with ideas. It lays out an entire framework for doing it. It's really interesting. It's pretty easy to read, but it's one of those books where after I read it, I'm just like, okay, this has definitely changed the way that I'm thinking about… business or I'm thinking about life or I've heard other people recommend a book called Thinking in Systems. This book does something similar.  I haven't read that book, but The Opposable Mind is my number one. On a podcast interview that we had with Jereshia Hawk, which we actually just reshared a couple of weeks ago.

How do you stand out in a world where more than a million people are calling themselves copywriters or content writers? You've heard all the "expected" ways to do it: find a niche, develop a personal brand, create a unique framework or unique mechanism. Those are all great ideas, but in this the 377th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter and membership strategist Robert Skrob who suggests a very different—and quite possibly better—approach to solving this problem. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy Retention Point by Robert Skrob The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Last time I checked there were nearly a million people on LinkedIn calling themselves copywriters. And almost another million with the title content writer. So how do you complete with two million copywriters? Many of whom are better than you? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh and on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast Kira Hug and I interviewed copywriter and membership strategist Robert Skrob. Robert says that instead of figuring out how to outcompete everyone else, suggests carving out your own niche so you DON’T compete with anyone else. Creating a space where you’re the only on doing what you do.  He also shared how he created a stead flow of clients to his business using a strategy we’ve never seen used by anyone else. It has nothing to do with LinkedIn or pitching or social media or just about anything else you’ve heard the so called experts say you have to do. Robert only works with high-end clients paying him at least $20,000 a month. He told us his “fishing for sailfish” secret for finding them. You’re going to want to hear what he has to say. Before we get to the interview, I need to take a minute to tell you about the Copywriter Accelerator. But before you tune me out and think, I’ve heard about this before, we’re trying something a little different. It’s called The Copywriter Accelerator Fast Track… rather than taking 5 months to go through the program, you’ll go through the business-changing or business-creating program (depending on where you are in your business)you’ll go through the program in 30 days or less. And because this is the fast track version, it’s the lowest price we’ve ever offered for The Copywriter Accelerator before. You owe it to yourself to find out more at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Robert Skrob. Robert Skrob:  It’s my honor to be here. It took, I guess I’m 148 on the list of the most interesting copywriters to talk to. Rob Marsh:   You’re way above that. But, we just haven’t been able to get with you. You’re so busy. Kira Hug:   That’s true. Rob Marsh:   With a such a great business. It’s amazing to have you here though. Thank you so much for being here. Robert Skrob:  I’m honored. I don’t hang out at copywriting events or speak at those things, but I certainly see copywriters struggle and become very frustrated. So hopefully, we can share some ideas that can help simplify this whole business for everybody. Kira Hug:   Sounds great. Well, let’s start with your story first. How did you end up as a copywriter? Robert Skrob:   Actually, back in 1993, I was an accountant at a public accounting firm and hated it. I was there three months and left, took a job as a bookkeeper for a company that did consulting with non-profit associations, and I ended up buying that company about five years later. So, I had 20 associations that I was responsible for doing membership marketing, event marketing, sponsorship sales, and I needed to know how to get this stuff sold. I ran across Dan Kennedy about ’96 and found his how to write a sales letter book. I can remember sitting at my living room coffee table going through that book chapter by chapter writing my first sales letter ever and editing it and getting it out. So, for a number of a years, for the clients that we were working with, I was writing offers for membership sales, selling sponsorships, selling exhibits, and even in some political campaigns. So, it gave me a very quick practice in how to write because I was writing to movers to get them to join. I was writing to motorcycle dealers, to different types of doctors, dermatologists, OB-GYNs, pain medicine doctors, anesthesiologists, and then occupational therapists and geologists, all different types of people. So, it helped me really understand. They’d say you’ve got to learn what the insider language is of the niche and learn what they’re thinking. That experience really helped me learn that. I started doing some freelance copywriting. The date may be wrong, but I think ’03, ’04. Then, I also started sharing what I was doing with Dan back then, and I joined his coaching group and started participating. He said, ‘You know what, Robert? You ought to start sharing what you’re doing with associations with some of these for-profit information marketing businesses.’ I go, ‘Oh, Dan. I’m just copying your formula to the association world.’ He’s like, ‘Yeah, you ought to try to show them.’ So anyway, we did, and I sold a how to create an association product. This is a little bit of a long story, but we created an information marketing association and built that membership. I sold it in 2012. Then, that left me with the figure out what was next, so I started going back to the copywriting route. But, I knew that for me as a copywriter, I didn’t feel like I was interested in competing with the top dogs. Just like, ‘Look at that.’ I’d go, ‘Man, there’s just no way I care to go head to head with a David Deutsch or a Parris Lampropoulos or any of those guys.’ Why would I compete there? Where can I go that is never going to get their interest that I can have my own business? So, after a couple of iterations, I figured out that this whole membership thing was a great place to be. So, I started building essentially what, between us, we could call a copywriting practice, but the clients, I don’t ever use that word. So, we created a nice little business out of that. Rob Marsh:   It’s definitely a good story. So, just to make sure I heard you right. Your background was in accounting and bookkeeping, not necessarily writing. Robert Skrob: Well actually, I still have my CPA license, so yes, at heart, a bookkeeper accountant. Rob Marsh:   So, yeah. So, that’s interesting to me. Are there things from bookkeeping or accounting that are applicable to what you do as a copywriter, or is it more even maybe in understanding the business and the numbers to help you do things specifically, or have you kind of turned away from that and really focused in on the marketing side? Robert Skrob:   I do think it helps me, in particular, in the math portion of the business. So, when I’m looking at a membership business, not only am I able to look at the copy and go, ‘Yeah, I think I can do better than this.’ But, I can also help them calculate what a percentage improvement would mean to their bottom line. So, very often, when I am doing a diagnosis of a business, I’ll have their numbers. So, in a membership, you have some sort of number, your lead acquisition. You have converting leads into maybe a trial member. You have trial conversion. You have 30-day onboarding conversion. Then, you’ve got a long term retention and a retention rate monthly. Maybe you’re even looking at an annual renewal, and so you’ve got first year renewal and then, your renewals after that. So, by being able to be comfortable with numbers, I’m able to take the numbers they have, and if we’re looking at improving the trial conversion rate, I can show, ‘Oh, okay. If we improve your trial conversion from 45% to 50%, that’s going to mean X dollars to your bottom line, and you’re not spending any more money on marketing. We’re just simply making the marketing you do more effective.’ So, it has helped me demonstrate a return on investment for the copywriting services. Kira Hug:   Okay, so before we started officially recording, you said something that really stood out to me. You said that you hung out with several copywriters. You weren’t necessarily teaching copywriters. You don’t want to be a copywriter guru, but you’ve noticed that many copywriters make this complicated, like we just make business and finding clients really complicated, more complicated than it needs to be. Can you talk a little bit about that, and why you don’t call yourself a copywriter, and how you’ve seen copywriters make things a little bit more complicated than they need to be? Robert Skrob:  Sure. Really, it’s applying copywriting principles to your own silly business of selling copywriting services. One of the things I’ve figured out is okay, with a business owner, if they have a problem that needs my solution. They need copy. They need marketing. They need marketing strategy. So, what are the symptoms of that? Well, they’ve decreased business. Their cost of marketing goes up. Their sales go down. What is the most natural thing for a person in that situation to do? Well, slice the marketing and advertising budgets, cut costs so that they’re still making the same amount money, even as their revenue decreases. Well, geez. They’re not thinking, ‘Oh, boy. Let me go find a copywriter somewhere. Let me search for a copywriter.’ If anything, it’s like a marketing agency. A copywriter isn’t the thing that they’re looking for. Most likely, they’re going to search for something along the lines of increasing leads, or a few of them will think of conversion, even that number. They’re certainly not going to talk in terms of funnel. So, as a copywriter, think of it this way. If a dentist was selling the scraping of the teeth,

Too many of us get caught up in the doing of our business instead of thinking about our business. So for this 376th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we are flashing back to another one of our best interviews... this one from business strategist Jereshia Hawk who went deep on selling to high ticket clients as well as what it takes to truly grow your business. She calls it super thinking. We call it CEO time. Whatever you call it, you definitely want to hear what Jereshia has to say about it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Things we mentioned to check out: The Road Less Stupid by Keith Cunningham The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Welcome to the New Year. Whether you’re back at your desk today or still taking a few days to ramp back up for 2024, this interview is just what you need… or at least, it is just what I needed to hear to kick off the new year. It is the perfect compliment to last week’s throwback episode with Seth Godin. Because Jereshia is another expert that I love to learn from. When we interviewed her a little over three years ago, she shared a ton of great information about selling to clients with money… what is often referred to as high-ticket sales. And that’s what we focused the title and promotion of that interview on. But we also covered the idea of super-thinking. That is the idea that we need to be creating space for coming up with new ideas and insights and not just reacting to what’s going on. And quite honestly, a lot of us spent the past year reacting to economic issues, artificial intelligence and a lot of other stuff that impacted the way we work. So I think you’re going to like the throwback interview with business coach Jereshia Hawk. Before we get to that, if you want this year to be better than last year, better clients, better projects, and better opportunities, you absolutely need to visit thecopywriterunderground.com and check out the resources waiting for you there. That’s thecopywriterunderground.com. Now let’s get to our interview with Jereshia… Kira Hug: All right, Jereshia, welcome. We want to kick this off with your story. How did you end up as a high ticket sales coach? Jereshia Hawk:   Well, I kind of stumbled my way here. I was an engineer by trade before even knowing this whole online world existed. And I started doing some of my videos, started getting into coaching, just people asking me to give advice or insight on how I was able to navigate my corporate career and how I was able to position myself for upward mobility opportunities in a nontraditional way or in a way that just wasn’t the same beat and path of how you’re supposed to excel in corporate. And one thing I started recognizing during my coaching calls at the very, very beginning, when I was charging $60 for a month of coaching, less than what you would pay for a fitness class, and the biggest thing that I noticed was the transferrable skills that I had acquired in corporate America. I was a lead engineer of a $400 million pipeline project, I was responsible for managing our money on a day-to-day basis, making decisions based off of input and output, and so I understood how money moved from a corporates perspective, but then I also understood kind of a gap that I noticed in the industry, or that I noticed just from people that I was discussing on, how do you effectively articulate your value in a way that whoever is in the other position, the buying decision or the position of authority to make a decision, how do you articulate your value in a way where they get it and that it also correlates to how it impacts the bottom line or impacts the thing that’s most important to them, and how do you position yourself to be able to do that repeatedly. And once I started to recognize that those three things were really my sweet spot and as I started growing in the coaching business, that’s where high ticket sales was my natural zone of genius. Because I think when you are selling offers that are $2,000 to $20,000, it’s usually the range most of my clients are in, there’s just a different way that you have to articulate your value than if you’re selling something for $500. There’s a different way that you have to position yourself in order to attract people to know just know, like and trust you, but to believe you, respect you and align with you from a value base perspective, to want to be able to invest with you at a higher level. So it was definitely a work in progress. It took about two years to feel confident in myself to be able to kind of own that as an identity in this online world before I really dove head in. It’s really recognizing these transferrable skills and also identifying where is the gap that I see in the industry that we’re in and where can I really be adding value from a unique perspective. Rob Marsh:   So before we jump in to all of the aspects of high ticket sales, I want to ask about your engineering background because this seems really unique to me. I talk to a lot of people who’ve built online businesses, who are working in the online space, and I don’t think any of them are engineers. So is there something from your engineering background in education that made you especially good at what you’re doing today, skills that you learned there that you apply to how you help today? Jereshia Hawk:   Yeah. I have clients that joke and say I’m never hiring a coach that was an engineer after working with you now. I think one of the biggest things is that as an engineer, we’re trained to use the resources that we have to creatively solve problems. So I think that was a mindset shift that individually helped me as a business owner in the online space, or just with my business, because I don’t look at problems as, I don’t know, opportunities of failure exactly. It’s more of a big experiment and it’s like, okay, I’m willing to test and try and experiment until I can figure out a solution rather than if I try once, feeling ridiculously defeated if it doesn’t pan out. And I think that’s a mindset aspect that really does correlate to how I coach my clients is really getting them onboard that it’s really progress over perfection. We’re really here. It’s continuous improvement, not get it right on the first time. And so I think that it correlates into how we teach and coach our curriculum. And I think it makes me a bit different but I think the other thing that really has been a huge advantage for me because of being an engineer is I think very process-oriented. So all of my curriculum is designed in a way where if a client comes in, it’s like an assembly line. How can we design our curriculum in a way that moves them through that assembly line so that they are getting consistent results from client to client, and it’s very predictable, it’s very repeatable. And I think that is a huge reason why we have a very high success rate of our clients. We have a coaching program that’s around the $2,000 price point. I’d say 75%, 80% of our clients earn a full return on investment within the first 90 days, which traditional courses or online programs, they normally have about a 10% to 12% completion rate in our industry on average with our higher programs that are in the five-figure price point, we’re just able to help people grow pretty fast pretty quickly, and I think that’s 100% attributed to how we design our curriculum, and that is something I learned from being an engineer. How do you think about the step-by-step process that would guide somebody through knowing when they need to do what and where their focus needs to be, to be able to produce whatever the desired end objective is that was promised to begin with. So I think just how I think about curriculum is more aligned with maybe how Apple thinks about creating a new product or how maybe software companies think about developing software, it’s this alpha beta, delta launch is through this continuous improvement and this feedback loop that you get from clients to enhance your curriculum. And I think even the clients we get to serve, when they start to think about their curriculum and their client experience journey, it really puts them at a huge advantage against their peers because most other coaches or service providers or copywriters in the industry, they may be amazing at what they do but they may not know how to deliver their client experience and the delivery of whatever they do in that predictable of a manner. So I think those are two things that I 100% attribute to my engineering background, for sure. Kira Hug:   Well, let’s break that down even more because I’m not naturally a process person. I don’t have a background in engineering, so if I want to create this incredible experience for my copywriting clients and also with my programs that we run together, I want high completion rates, I want them to be engaged, I want them to perform well in those programs, how can I do that better? What are some really specific steps I can take, especially if I’m not naturally process-minded like you? Jereshia Hawk:   Yeah, that’s a great question. One of the first things that I recommend and I think really what elevates a client experience and really differentiates a person from peers or competitors in the industry is your ability to be able to anticipate your clients’ needs before they know they need them. So I think in sales or in marketing, a lot of us can default to know, okay, I need to overcome some objections to get somebody to buy. And we think that’s the only time that we’re going to have to overcome an objection. Once a client enrolls and pays and signs on for the copywriting services, you still have to overcome objections that they are going to have to do to provide you the deliverables that you need to produce the website. They need to send over the copy… well,

For the 375th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we brought back Seth Godin. But maybe not quite the way you think. We talked to Seth more than five years ago about creating art, freelancing, and the story you create for yourself. It's such a great discussion, but because it happened so long ago, not very many listeners find it. So for our very first throwback episode, we've pulled this great interview out of the vault and are sharing it again... with a few new thoughts at the end. Even if you heard this interview the first time we ran it, it's worth another listen. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: This is Marketing by Seth Godin The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Accelerator Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: A little over 5 years ago, as we were approaching our 100th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and I were trying to think of who would be an amazing guest for the 100th episode of the show. There are some amazing—even famous—copywriters who came to mind. It’s too bad David Ogilvy wasn’t alive. He definitely would have made the cut. But this show is about more than copywriting. It’s about marketing and showing up and making a difference in the world. And when we added those considerations to the list, one obvious choice stood out. Seth Godin. You know Seth. He’s been a vocal advocate for making art or as Steve Jobs once said, making a dent in the universe. Much of Seth’s career, certainly for the last decade, has been about encouraging people to make their art. So I reached out to Seth and asked him if he would be our 100th guest. And I think it was about 20 minutes later, I got a reply back. I still have it, in fact, let me just read what he said… he wrote… I can happily do this, but my publisher asked me to not have any new podcast interviews until November. Can we record it soon, but have it come out then? That timing meant that Seth wouldn’t be our 100th guest, but we weren’t about to say no. And in fact, I think the timing actually worked in our favor. As you can imagine, Seth appeared on many podcasts around the same time ours went live—all to promote his new book. But because we recorded 5 months earlier, we didn’t have the book, so our interview was very different from all the others that went live at the same time. It’s been 5 years since we recorded this interview with Seth, but I have to tell you I go back and listen to it more than any other episode. Seth’s advice on making art, owning the work we do, doing the difficult emotional work, building spec projects, and what happens when we don’t do those things is even more important today than if was when we recorded this interview more than 5 years ago. Now… this is where I would usually mention the copywriter underground. I’m not going to do that today because we wanted to give you something as a thank you for being a regular listener to the show. Just after the new year, we launch the copywriter accelerator. It’s not a course. It’s an 8 part business building program designed to help you build a six-figure business that works for you. I’m not going to tell you all the things it includes here. You can find that out at thecopywriteraccelerator.com. But I will share an exclusive code only available to you as a podcast listener. This is the only place we’re sharing it. If you go to the copywriter accelerator.com and enter the code: POD200, you’ll save $200 off the price of the program. That’s POD200 at the copywriter accelerator .com. And you can find far more details about what the program includes there. Check it out. And if it’s a fit, join with the code: POD200. Okay, now we hope you enjoy this incredible interview with Seth Godin. Kira Hug:  Seth, welcome. Rob Marsh:  Hey, Seth. Seth Godin:  Thanks. Great to talk to you guys. Kira Hug:  We’re very excited and honored that you’re a part of our show. Before we start recording, we just shared with you that you’ve been such a big influence in our careers and also in creating The Copywriter Club. So my palms are sweaty and I am thrilled that you’re here. Seth Godin: All right. Well, I’ll do my best. That’s a pretty high expectation, but we’ll see what happens. Rob Marsh:  You’re going to deliver. We feel good about this, so. Kira Hug:  So, to kick this off, you talk about becoming a category of one on your own podcast, and you mentioned doing quirky work. That really stood out to me. What does that mean and how can freelancers do that? Seth Godin: Well, there’s two kinds of freelancers. There are freelancers who seek to have a job without a boss, that’s most freelancers. And then there’s freelancers who actually make a living, make an impact, bend the curve. It’s fun to talk about being the second kind, but there’s a cost to it. I think distinguishing between the two is really important. More than ever because there are laptops, because there’s an internet. More than ever people feel like they can make a living on their own in the world. That plenty of people who are professional copywriters used to be on the client side and then they go, ‘Whoa, I just paid that person a thousand dollars if I only did that 60 times a year, I could make a living.’ And so off they go. Their motto is ‘You can hire anyone and I’m anyone.’ The problem with that motto is it’s based on a mindset of scarcity. A scarcity of information, a scarcity of choice, the scarcity that comes from geography. And in my little town, there’s only one florist. So yeah, if you want flowers you have to buy it from the florist, but it’s not true for copywriters. There’s no scarcity. The alternative is to do the scary work of intentionally not being in the middle, intentionally not saying to the client, ‘What would you like? I’m happy to do it for you.’ Because if that’s your approach, then they’ll just find someone cheaper than you. Whereas the alternative is, ‘No, this is my work. This is how I do my work. I’m the one and only at this work and if you want this work, that’s what you get from me.’ That’s different. It’s a whole different way of being in the marketplace. Rob Marsh:  Can we talk a little bit about that other kind of freelancer too? Because I think it’s really important to realize that when we’re that kind of freelancer that doesn’t want a boss, a lot of times we actually end up creating a job with the worst boss of all, and that is ourselves. Seth Godin: Exactly. That most freelancers have an enemy inside and this is the person who not only relentlessly criticizes them, their work ethic, their approach, their quality of their work, but then when it’s time to do the difficult emotional labor of building a career, it says, ‘Nah, we worked really hard today. Let’s just go out for drinks.’ So on one hand, the boss is pushing you too hard and bringing shame along, and on the other hand, the boss isn’t pushing you hard enough and making it easy to hide. Rob Marsh: So, how do we make ourselves then that second kind of freelancer? What are the things that we need to do, really step into that role? Seth Godin: Well, I think it begins by acknowledging that you’re not very good at what you do right now. You’re at the 80% level. That there are plenty of people who do what you do, and many of them are faster and cheaper and more experienced than you. That’s just sheer math. It’s gotta be true. So, when I started out as book packager, I had a Mac. I knew sort of how to set type. I had an MBA from some fancy business school. I said, ‘I’m ready to go.’ But I wasn’t good at it for seven more years. But if you are self-satisfied, and say, ‘Well, why are they getting the gigs and I’m not? Life isn’t fair.’ Then you’re not going to be able to sharpen your knife and hone your skills to admit that, in fact, you could be a lot better at this. That’s the first thing. But the second thing is, you have to say no a lot. You will become the sum of your clients. You can define a freelancer’s life by who their clients are. When you have great clients, they push you to do better work, which gets you even better clients and they pay a lot because they’re happy to, because it’s worth it. When you have lousy clients, they’re in a hurry. They don’t push you at all except on price, and the kind of work they want you to do, doesn’t get you more clients because it’s mediocre. So you have to be able to say to lousy clients, ‘Sorry, I’d love your money, but I don’t want to work for you because you’re a lousy client.’ And then you have to use your downtime to work on spec to earn the attention of great clients. Kira Hug:  Can you talk a little bit more about that, the downtime working on spec to get the better clients because I feel like that’s where a lot of copywriters in our club get stuck? Seth Godin: Well, in the old days, in order to be a copywriter, you needed a bag of gold because you needed to buy a list and buy stamps, so it would be really hard. For example, to effectively prove to L.L. Bean that you could write catalog copy and form letters that would make L.L. Bean’s sales go up because it would’ve cost you tens of thousands of dollars to run that test on your own. But today, you could build a website and have that website attract people and connect people and earn people’s attention until you had 5,000 people in the fly fishing club. Once you earned the attention of 5,000 people in the fly fishing club, you’re not going to have any trouble at all getting great clients in the fly fishing industry because all by yourself for free, you earned the attention of 5,000 high value individuals. That’s the kind of spec work I’m talking about. Or if you don’t want to view it as an online club, find a charity you believe in, show up, and raise them $10 million dollars. After you’ve raised them $10 million for free,

Copywriter and Publisher of Freelancer magazine, Sophie Cross, is the guest for the 374th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob asked Sophie why she decided to publish a print magazine in a time when many printed magazines seem to be struggling to find readers and advertisers. She shared what it takes to accomplish such a Herculean task each quarter. One of our big take aways from this discussion is that you may need to do something BIG to stand out in today's competitive world. Publishing a magazine is that kind of big idea that stands out. And this episode may give you a few ideas that you can use to stand out in your own niche or industry. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Important links to check out: Freelancer Magazine The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Want to build your authority? Then you need to be sharing your ideas, insights and content in places where your audience will find you. Linkedin. Instagram. Medium. Twitter. That’s good advice and it has helped hundreds of copywriters rise above the crowd and get noticed by the clients they serve. But if you really want to stand out… the way to do it is by showing up in ways that no one else has thought of before. Instead of posting on someone else’s platform, why not create your own? Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and magazine publisher Sophie Cross. Sophie is the publisher of Freelancer magazine, a printed quarterly magazine about the ins and outs of working on your own. As you’ll hear her explain, Sophie wanted to create a platform to help her get noticed. So she started her magazine and we wanted to understand what it takes to publish and mail a 100-page magazine 4 times a year. Turns out it’s a lot of work. We also talked about freelancing in the hospitality industry, creating courses and other assets, and Sophie’s advice for anyone working as a freelancer today. Stick around because this one is pretty good. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Sophie. Kira Hug: All right, Sophie, let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as the editor of Freelancer magazine? Sophie Cross: I ended up with the editor because I made the magazine and made myself the editor. Rob Marsh: That is a very good way to start. Yeah. Sophie Cross: I I was already making a magazine, had a little bit of experience in my backgrounds in hospitality marketing before. Yeah. Well, when I went freelance and went freelance, I had the experience making hotel brochures and collateral and things like that. You can only look back at the stepping stones, can't you can't sort of see where they're taking you. I sort of didn't think much of it at the time, but actually now realizing that I had this real passion for printed collateral and things like that, I then started making a magazine for quite a big hotel group in London. And that got pulled at the beginning of the pandemic. So I had a little bit of experience, but not from anything to do with journalism or anything like that. And yeah, I started making courses for freelancers, marketing courses when the pandemic started. And I was thinking about how to create content for freelancers that would put me at the forefront and would show me as an expert in freelancing and marketing. And I was thinking about doing a podcast or a blog. And yeah, I'm definitely more writing than speaking. I already had a newsletter blog that felt a bit past it. But then I went even more past it and went back to I thought, I know how I'll get people's attention. I'll post it through the boxes. And yeah, I just suddenly had the thought that there wasn't already a magazine like it for the community. I was part of quite a lot of freelance communities online. So I knew I would have heard of it, but that was also great to launch it because I was already quite a big part of quite a lot of freelance communities. So, yeah, that's how the magazine came about. Rob Marsh: I'd love to back up just a little bit and talk a bit about hospitality marketing before we come back to freelancing in the magazine. Hospitality marketing strikes me as a really challenging niche because it's in so many ways, it's a commodity. You're buying a room or a restaurant and there are so many options. And yet, there's also sort of interesting ways to differentiate. So will you just tell us a little bit about your experience there at the kind of work that you're doing? how you helped the different brands and companies that you were working with to grow? Sophie Cross: Yeah, sure. So my, I mainly worked with hotel groups before I went freelance, I mainly worked with hotel groups. And then even when I went freelance, largely hotel groups. It's really interesting from the respect that you have rooms to sell, you have a bar to sell, you have a restaurant to sell, you have a spa to sell, so you have all of these different things. I worked with Hilton for a long time, I worked with Holiday Inn for a long time, I worked with Park Plaza, so I've worked for a lot of big hotel groups. And yeah, I think the challenge really is, I think the biggest challenge in hospitality marketing is getting marketing and operations to work together, because it's really easy to put these amazing things in place. But if you haven't got front of house supporting you with that. So I think one of the main things is the relationship building and the training between marketing and the front of house teams, because you can be doing as great a marketing as you like. But if people aren't picking up the phone in the restaurant, then that's not going to do you any favor. So I think Just making friends with the restaurant manager is always helpful. I think just getting back to basics and building your database. I just think that's so important for so many companies, but actually, you know, hotels and restaurants and everything, they have such an opportunity to capture data, which they probably don't take and then create a really interesting newsletter for their local market. And it'd be quite easy to target even if you have a business audience and a leisure audience. You can be creating two different newsletters. If you're a restaurant, then you could be putting some really interesting stuff together about the local area to be making people open that newsletter. I think on top of that, you need to be creating events, you need to be creating packages. So whether you're a restaurant or a hotel, giving people reasons to come and visit you. So with Hilton, we created mini breaks. So we would create heritage, spa, golf and theme park packages. And you're going to other local businesses and asking to get a discount on bulk tickets. And then you're creating a package for people to come and stay. But you could also do that if you're a restaurant, you could do it if you're a bar. I've seen some great things like hotel bars and bars and pubs even, turning themselves into co-working spaces during the day when they've got spare capacity. I mean, it's just reminding people that you're there and putting them at the forefront when they're actually looking to book their birthday dinner out and things like that as well. So, yeah, hospitality marketing is still a bit of a passion of mine. I keep thinking about going back into it in one way or another, but yeah. Kira Hug:  I feel that passion and I'm excited to do it. So are you working in it now? It sounds like maybe you hit pause on it for now. Sophie Cross: Yeah, I did. I hit pause on it when I started the magazine, actually, and really was focused on productizing like before. Before the pandemic hit, I already had half an eye on productising my business and I was really interested in not selling your time one for one. Know how you create, I didn't know quite what it was, whether it was courses, or packages, or I wasn't quite sure. But then yeah, the pandemic gave me the opportunity to go for it with the courses and really start from. I was making, I don't think there's anything wrong with Canva in a lot of ways. I don't know if you guys, do you guys use Canva? Are you familiar with it? Yeah. But I was using it quite badly to make courses. And yes, it gave me the opportunity to really test. Like, I think the content was good, but graphically and things like that were not good. And yeah, just really started from scratch. And yeah, started creating courses and then had the idea for the magazine. So it was then focused on creating this business that was productized and scalable and looking at automating it as much as I can really. But yeah, the consultancy and everything is like, I was actually thinking of starting a newsletter for the hospitality industry next year, but I'm not quite sure. Kira Hug:  Breaking news right here.

We're talking all about online business myths and what to do when you're struggling in your business on the 373rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This episode is a Kira and Rob only show—no guest. And they delve into the realities of running a business today. The path is seldom up and to the right (always growing) and often so challenging, you're tempted to get a "real" job or at least something part-time until client work gets steadier. We cover a lot of ground in this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Almost no one expects to launch a business and have everything go easily from the beginning, but after a few years, well by then, things should be getting easier, right? Well, not always, and not exactly.  I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of the Copywriter Club. And on today's episode of the Copywriter Club podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I talk about a couple of business myths. Like the idea that your progress should always be up and to the right. That is that things always get easier and more profitable year after year. Or the idea that replacing clients with products and passive income is easy. or the all-too-common belief that taking a job in-house is a failure. I also talked a little bit about how to prepare for a business downturn. If you struggle to find clients or your business hasn't been growing as quickly as you hoped, you may want to stay around and listen to the end of this episode.  But first, this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast is brought to you by the Copywriter Underground. You've heard me talk about this for the past few weeks. It truly is the best membership for copywriters, content writers, marketers of all kinds. And let me just give you an idea of what you get for what you pay every single month. First, there's a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice about overcoming any business or client or writing challenge that you have. When we do one-on-one coaching, we charge several hundred dollars an hour for that. it's included in your membership.  There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques. Sometimes that's from Kira and myself. Sometimes that's an expert that we bring in to talk about something they're doing interesting in their business. All of those are designed to help you get better at this thing that we do. We've been talking about new AI tools and ways to use AI in the underground. even new tools, techniques, prompts that you can use to have AI help you get more done quicker. And on top of that, there's this massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters who are ready to help you with almost anything, including sharing leads from time to time. What an amazing value that is. To find out more of what it includes, go to thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu.  And with that, let's get to our discussion for a few suggestions about how to prepare for the inevitable downturns and hard times in your business.  All right, Kira, just you and me again today. And we're going to talk about a couple of things. But before we jump into talking about recessions and making our businesses stronger and all of that stuff, I put together a couple of getting to know you questions that are maybe a little bit different. Let's start easy. Mountain or beach vacation? Kira Hug:  I feel like we've covered that one on the pod already. And I feel like last time you asked me, I was like, I don't, I don't know. I can't choose between mountain or beach. Because the question stresses me out. So I remember it, but I mean, I would probably lean towards beach if I had to choose. I just, I like both. It's hard for me to choose.  Rob Marsh:  Why does it stress you out?  Kira Hug:  Because I don't like choosing. This is like anytime anyone asks me like, Oh, what's your favorite song? What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite memory? How are we supposed to choose when we want to experience everything in life? So anyway, this is why I like to interview people and not be interviewed. That's why. But what are you like? Mountain or beach? Which one would you prefer? Rob Marsh:  I live so close to the mountains and so far away from the beach that I feel like vacation is getting away from what I have or what I know and getting to the thing that I don't have. So, you know, I only see the ocean a couple times a year if I'm lucky. And so I'll take a beach vacation any day. Even a mountain lake beach is a good vacation. I'm like you, I love mountains and you know, somebody said, Hey, yeah, we've got a couple of weeks for you in a cabin in Montana or whatever. I would take it. But beaches just feel vacation-y to me where mountains feel just a little bit more like regular recreation. Kira Hug:  Yeah, and I think because I moved, like it's so weird to live near the beach. I've never in my entire life lived near a beach. And so now, you know, at this stage, living near a beach for the past year, and this is probably where I'm going to be for a while, I think I'm still getting used to the fact that a beach is a mile away like I could walk or jog to the beach and there are beautiful beaches you know a short drive away and so in some ways I think it's just like it hasn't fully set in that it's right there like I don't have to travel and it's really cool at times after after work to take the kids and go to the beach and watch the sunset on the beach and it's just again it's like I'm like, do I live near a beach? I just can't quite handle it. So I think that's also why the question stresses me out and just, I don't know. Maybe I've just moved too many times. So I'm like, I don't even know where I live. Rob Marsh: There's something magical about just the monotony of wave after wave crashing in on a beach. And I think I could sit on the beach and just watch the waves all day long, all week long. It'd take me a long time to get tired of that. Kira Hug:  Yeah, and especially if you have, you know, if you're there during a storm, it's really fun when the waves are so big and crazy, like that's a good time. Or again, like a sunset because everyone gathers and all of a sudden the beach is filled with, you know, with locals who want to experience it. So it is a magical place. So okay, I guess I would choose a beach in the end, even though I live near it now. That would be my pick. Rob Marsh:  Beach. Fair enough. Question number two, this one's a hard one. What's your Bacon number? And just for context, everybody probably knows this, but there's that old internet game of how many degrees to Kevin Bacon you are. And so I'm wondering if you've ever thought about this, like how many degrees away from Kevin Bacon are you? Kira Hug:  Yeah, I figured it out when you were going to ask me that. And I had to kind of figure it out and map it out. And I guess it depends. When you do it, does it mean you have to have had a conversation with someone in order to have that degree and that relationship? Rob Marsh:  Let's just call it a connection for now. Kira Hug:  Yeah, but what warrants a connection? Is it you made eye contact? Is it you were within 10 feet of each other? Rob Marsh: Well, for me, I think it's probably going to be some kind of way where you can say, I am connected to this person. It's like, I know this person from this thing or from this place. So maybe you talked to them, or maybe you do know them personally. But I will leave that up to you whether you go that hard on that definition. Kira Hug:  OK, so I could be two degrees away. Rob Marsh: That's amazing. How? Who do you know that knows Kevin Bacon? Kira Hug:  And how do we get him on the podcast? This is where I was in the vicinity of someone who has a relationship with Kevin Bacon. When I was in SAG for a year and in a movie called Sex and the City, I was on screen with Sarah Jessica Parker. who is one degree away from Kevin Bacon because they were in Footloose together. And so therefore, I am two degrees away from Kevin Bacon. And if we say, well, no, you didn't actually talk to her. Okay, well then I did talk to Kim Cattrall, who was also in the movie, who did acknowledge me and made eye contact and she spoke to me. So that means I'd be three degrees if we're getting technical. But do either of them remember me? Do we have a connection? No. Rob Marsh:  Okay. So that's definitely closer than I think I can get myself. Kira Hug:  Do I win? Rob Marsh:  I think you do. You win. Your bacon number is less than mine. So I think my bacon number is four. I had a roommate in college, Mike, who left to left Salt Lake City, went down to LA to become a producer. He may have done some acting as well. It's been a little while since I've talked to Mike. He's an awesome roommate, a really funny guy.  He's been a producer on shows like Real Housewives of New York City, and he produced Tori and Dean in Love with Tori Spelling. Tori Spelling is two degrees away from Kevin. She was in a movie called Soul Good with Octavia Spencer, who was in Beauty Shop with Kevin Bacon. So if I do that, I'm four links away. Now there may be somebody out there that I know who’s closer connected, but I don't know who that is. Kira Hug:  Okay. Okay. So, I mean, it's good. You actually knew, you know, you knew the connections, which is better than what I do. Rob Marsh:  I could definitely call Mike and just say, hey, it's been a while. Let's talk or whatever. And I'm sure he probably could call Tori and maybe Tori and Octavia. But that's as close as I can do with just some quick looking today. Like I said, maybe there's somebody I know who's got a closer connection. I'll have to ask around. Kira Hug:  Yeah. Well,

Financial copywriter Sean MacIntyre shares insights on AI, positioning as an expert authority, and improving copywriting skills. He discusses the impact of AI on copywriting jobs and how copywriters can prepare for an impending recession. MacIntyre also talks about his journey from homelessness to successful copywriting, the opportunities in copywriting during a recession, and his future plans in entrepreneurship. The podcast explores strategies for navigating uncertainties and provides tips for analyzing and enhancing sales pages.

Femtech Copywriter Lanae Carmichael is our guest for the 371st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, and Kira and Rob asked her about finding her niche and framework (which Kira got a little too much pleasure from making Rob name), user testing copy before you present it to the client, and how she landed 50% of the work she did this year from other copywriters. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. A few links related to this show that you should definitely click: Lanae's Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  What’s your best source of leads? Where do the majority of your clients come from? As you look back on the past year, it’s a question worth thinking about. Do clients easily find you based on your social media presence or your LinkedIn profile? Do you seek out the people and brands you want to work with and pitch them on a project? Or maybe you benefit from referrals from past clients and other people who know you. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter Lanae Carmichael. Near the end of our interview Lanae said something that surprised us. She said that more than half of her clients this year came from other copywriters. This isn’t a new idea. We’ve talked about it before on the podcast. But 50% is a big number. Lanae shared what she did to put herself in position to get those referrals and it’s something any copywriter can do. And we talked about a lot more than that. You’ll want to keep listening to this episode. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Lanae. Kira Hug:  Let's kick off, Lanae, with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?  Lanae Carmichael:  All right, so I started out as a marketing consultant at a small TV tech firm, or a marketing specialist. I don't remember what my title was there. But I was very junior on the team, and I was primarily doing their internal communications. But slowly over time, I started working with the COO, and we were doing executive video scripts, and I was doing some change management communications as the small TV tech firm got bought out by a new company. After three or four years of working with that marketing team, I got pivoted into the product marketing side, and that's where I discovered branding and positioning and messaging, and I loved it.  Shortly after that, I had my first baby, and I knew I didn't really want the corporate lifestyle. I had friends that were in the copywriting industry. I didn't really know what the word meant, but I was already doing it. as is the story that so many copywriters have. But I was living in the Bay Area at the time, and there were startups abundant all around. And so I was on Angel's list, and I just started pitching. And pretty quickly, within two weeks, I had landed a year-long contract doing email marketing. And I didn't realize at the time how lucky it was that I kind of just fell into that great client, really good pay, year-long contract. But it worked out really well, and I had a knack for it. I took a bunch of copywriting courses to build up my knowledge while I approached the projects.  And within four months, they had tripled their email open rates. And there was a new revenue stream coming in through that email marketing. So I worked myself out of a job. They hired someone else full time. And I moved on and started taking on other clients. And yeah, that's kind of where it took off. Rob Marsh:  It's interesting, you got a great client right off the bat. So many people struggle with $25 blog posts and really have to figure out pricing. How did that affect you as then you went to find other clients? Did you go through that low price, terrible project struggle or was it smooth sailing? Lanae Carmichael:  Yes, I think I lucked out finding that client because it gave me the surge of confidence I needed and frankly, some income to play with, to buy courses and learn more. And so I do feel so grateful for that. And for my friends in the industry, because I was sending examples to them to land that client so early on. But I definitely did go through websites for $100 and blog posts for way too cheap. I've been through that pain as well. Pretty early on in my career, I went to a conference for creative entrepreneurs. And that was really nice because I felt like I got exposure to what people were doing in the space. There weren't very many copywriters there, but it was still a great arena to be in and understand how people are running a freelance business on making it work, making good money. And so I think that did give me the confidence to charge appropriately and say no to some projects. But I definitely had a messy meandering through there. Kira Hug:  Can you talk a little bit more about working yourself out of that job? Because I think that's something that many of us end up doing. And in some ways, maybe that's a win. Like, that is success. We should all work towards that goal of working ourselves out of a job, because that means you did a great job. I guess, how did you look at it at the time? Was that a big blow? Or did that feel like a win? And how did you process that when you were doing your job? How did that you ended up losing your job? Lanae Carmichael:  Yeah, that's a great question. So I was doing all of their email marketing, the weekly promo emails and the bigger campaigns. And as it closed out to the end of the year, our contract was not for a set time. It was just month to month. It ended up running for about a year. But I didn't know that it was coming to an end. So initially, I was pretty devastated because I thought that it was a performance-based thing. It seemed sudden. And then I emailed her and I just, we had a pretty good working relationship. So I said, do you mind sharing more of like why this is coming? Because initially she just sent an email like through our Asana communications. So we jumped on a call, and that's when she shared, hey, we've seen a lot of revenue coming from this. We want someone that can focus on this full time, and we want to bring them on sight, like to work at the office. And that wasn't something that I had been willing to do and couldn't do at that time anyway.  So when I got that piece of information, it did feel like validation. It felt exciting to me, and there was, she's been giving me great testimonials after that. we were able to preserve the relationship and it did end up feeling like a win. So I would say, and I've done this recently too, as I've gotten turned down from anything that I've applied to, I've asked why. And I think just following up with that, the bravery, the courage to ask in a kind way can give really interesting insight. Like sometimes I've been told, that my experience wasn't the right fit for their clients in terms of project or industry. Other times it was the pricing was more than they could afford at the time. But I think we tend to make up stories in our mind of why people say no to us. And so whenever I can get clarity and ask, your confidence and motivation to keep pitching can really increase. Rob Marsh:   Okay, so this is an idea more of us should definitely do. So I want to be specific about how you ask. Are you doing that on a call? Do you send an email? Exactly what are you saying to get the person to give you that feedback? Lanae Carmichael:  Yeah, so I've done it a few different ways. I have done it on a call when if we've like if I had a live call to deliver the proposal and we've already spoken on the call, then I feel more comfortable making that ask, hey, can we jp on a 10 minute call to discuss? Often, it's usually just responded to over email. I think that takes the pressure off. It's It can make someone uncomfortable to have to tell you why. But I find if I ask in a way of looking to improve myself and put the onus on me, like, hey, as I'm continuing to pitch and try to land work, what were the gaps that you saw in the materials I send over or in my portfolio so that I can hone those skills more, better serve you in the future? I think asking from that angle really lowers the fear on their side because then they're helping you and responding is something everyone wants to. They want to graciously help. People usually like to give. Kira Hug:  Well, before we move on from that, can you just play it out and kind of share an example of maybe some feedback you received and then how you actually implemented that change and made that change in your business and what that looked like? Lanae Carmichael:  Sure. One of the companies that I pitched about a year and a half ago wanted a full marketing campaign leading up to an event. We were repositioning the messaging across all their channels. The timeline was really tight.

Copywriter Justin Goff, who only works 3-4 hours a day, shares his secrets to work-life balance and building connections. They discuss differing perspectives on vision and process, the impact of AI tools, and leveraging copywriting skills in niche markets. Justin Goff also shares his ideas on leverage and offers advice on consistently growing your business through storytelling.