TCC Podcast #371: Getting Clients from Other Copywriters with Lanae Carmichael

Femtech Copywriter Lanae Carmichael is our guest for the 371st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, and Kira and Rob asked her about finding her niche and framework (which Kira got a little too much pleasure from making Rob name), user testing copy before you present it to the client, and how she landed 50% of the work she did this year from other copywriters. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. A few links related to this show that you should definitely click: Lanae's Website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  What’s your best source of leads? Where do the majority of your clients come from? As you look back on the past year, it’s a question worth thinking about. Do clients easily find you based on your social media presence or your LinkedIn profile? Do you seek out the people and brands you want to work with and pitch them on a project? Or maybe you benefit from referrals from past clients and other people who know you. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter Lanae Carmichael. Near the end of our interview Lanae said something that surprised us. She said that more than half of her clients this year came from other copywriters. This isn’t a new idea. We’ve talked about it before on the podcast. But 50% is a big number. Lanae shared what she did to put herself in position to get those referrals and it’s something any copywriter can do. And we talked about a lot more than that. You’ll want to keep listening to this episode. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And with that, let’s go to our interview with Lanae. Kira Hug:  Let's kick off, Lanae, with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?  Lanae Carmichael:  All right, so I started out as a marketing consultant at a small TV tech firm, or a marketing specialist. I don't remember what my title was there. But I was very junior on the team, and I was primarily doing their internal communications. But slowly over time, I started working with the COO, and we were doing executive video scripts, and I was doing some change management communications as the small TV tech firm got bought out by a new company. After three or four years of working with that marketing team, I got pivoted into the product marketing side, and that's where I discovered branding and positioning and messaging, and I loved it.  Shortly after that, I had my first baby, and I knew I didn't really want the corporate lifestyle. I had friends that were in the copywriting industry. I didn't really know what the word meant, but I was already doing it. as is the story that so many copywriters have. But I was living in the Bay Area at the time, and there were startups abundant all around. And so I was on Angel's list, and I just started pitching. And pretty quickly, within two weeks, I had landed a year-long contract doing email marketing. And I didn't realize at the time how lucky it was that I kind of just fell into that great client, really good pay, year-long contract. But it worked out really well, and I had a knack for it. I took a bunch of copywriting courses to build up my knowledge while I approached the projects.  And within four months, they had tripled their email open rates. And there was a new revenue stream coming in through that email marketing. So I worked myself out of a job. They hired someone else full time. And I moved on and started taking on other clients. And yeah, that's kind of where it took off. Rob Marsh:  It's interesting, you got a great client right off the bat. So many people struggle with $25 blog posts and really have to figure out pricing. How did that affect you as then you went to find other clients? Did you go through that low price, terrible project struggle or was it smooth sailing? Lanae Carmichael:  Yes, I think I lucked out finding that client because it gave me the surge of confidence I needed and frankly, some income to play with, to buy courses and learn more. And so I do feel so grateful for that. And for my friends in the industry, because I was sending examples to them to land that client so early on. But I definitely did go through websites for $100 and blog posts for way too cheap. I've been through that pain as well. Pretty early on in my career, I went to a conference for creative entrepreneurs. And that was really nice because I felt like I got exposure to what people were doing in the space. There weren't very many copywriters there, but it was still a great arena to be in and understand how people are running a freelance business on making it work, making good money. And so I think that did give me the confidence to charge appropriately and say no to some projects. But I definitely had a messy meandering through there. Kira Hug:  Can you talk a little bit more about working yourself out of that job? Because I think that's something that many of us end up doing. And in some ways, maybe that's a win. Like, that is success. We should all work towards that goal of working ourselves out of a job, because that means you did a great job. I guess, how did you look at it at the time? Was that a big blow? Or did that feel like a win? And how did you process that when you were doing your job? How did that you ended up losing your job? Lanae Carmichael:  Yeah, that's a great question. So I was doing all of their email marketing, the weekly promo emails and the bigger campaigns. And as it closed out to the end of the year, our contract was not for a set time. It was just month to month. It ended up running for about a year. But I didn't know that it was coming to an end. So initially, I was pretty devastated because I thought that it was a performance-based thing. It seemed sudden. And then I emailed her and I just, we had a pretty good working relationship. So I said, do you mind sharing more of like why this is coming? Because initially she just sent an email like through our Asana communications. So we jumped on a call, and that's when she shared, hey, we've seen a lot of revenue coming from this. We want someone that can focus on this full time, and we want to bring them on sight, like to work at the office. And that wasn't something that I had been willing to do and couldn't do at that time anyway.  So when I got that piece of information, it did feel like validation. It felt exciting to me, and there was, she's been giving me great testimonials after that. we were able to preserve the relationship and it did end up feeling like a win. So I would say, and I've done this recently too, as I've gotten turned down from anything that I've applied to, I've asked why. And I think just following up with that, the bravery, the courage to ask in a kind way can give really interesting insight. Like sometimes I've been told, that my experience wasn't the right fit for their clients in terms of project or industry. Other times it was the pricing was more than they could afford at the time. But I think we tend to make up stories in our mind of why people say no to us. And so whenever I can get clarity and ask, your confidence and motivation to keep pitching can really increase. Rob Marsh:   Okay, so this is an idea more of us should definitely do. So I want to be specific about how you ask. Are you doing that on a call? Do you send an email? Exactly what are you saying to get the person to give you that feedback? Lanae Carmichael:  Yeah, so I've done it a few different ways. I have done it on a call when if we've like if I had a live call to deliver the proposal and we've already spoken on the call, then I feel more comfortable making that ask, hey, can we jp on a 10 minute call to discuss? Often, it's usually just responded to over email. I think that takes the pressure off. It's It can make someone uncomfortable to have to tell you why. But I find if I ask in a way of looking to improve myself and put the onus on me, like, hey, as I'm continuing to pitch and try to land work, what were the gaps that you saw in the materials I send over or in my portfolio so that I can hone those skills more, better serve you in the future? I think asking from that angle really lowers the fear on their side because then they're helping you and responding is something everyone wants to. They want to graciously help. People usually like to give. Kira Hug:  Well, before we move on from that, can you just play it out and kind of share an example of maybe some feedback you received and then how you actually implemented that change and made that change in your business and what that looked like? Lanae Carmichael:  Sure. One of the companies that I pitched about a year and a half ago wanted a full marketing campaign leading up to an event. We were repositioning the messaging across all their channels. The timeline was really tight.