The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter Kim Kiel shares how she built her business slowly and steadily, focusing on improvement over time and avoiding the hustle. Topics include setting boundaries with clients, managing project scopes, and strategic planning for business success. She also talks about marketing strategies, podcast development, and intentional growth strategies in copywriting.

What does it take to become a copywriter? How do you learn the skills you need? What are the best ways to "get in the game' so to speak? In the 388th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Eddie Shleyner about the process of becoming a copywriter—and how he made the jump from literature student to booked-out-copywriter and author of a book about copy. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Eddie's website Full Transcript: Most weeks on the podcast we take some time to dive into a different copywriter’s origin story. Why they became a copywriter. How they made the switch from whatever they were before to what they do now. It’s a process we all go through, and yet, we tend to skip over a lot of the details. We jump from one client to the next, or from this service to that product. We cover a lot of what and don’t go very deep into the how. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and soon to be book author, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie shared the details of how he learned to write copy, the feedback he got along the way, and the books he found most helpful. And that’s just the beginning. We also talked about sabaticals, burnout and book writing. This is a good one, stay tuned.  But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. We recently updated our guide to finding clients… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… things you can do today to attract a client—maybe even in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take a bit longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free.  But don’t just download this document and let it die on your hard drive. If that’s your approach, don’t bother. This isn’t a one page pdf that’s easy to ignore. It’s a comprehensive… 36 page mini book… that includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will run away from you—the exact opposite of what you want. I already mentioned it includes more than 21 ways to find clients, as well as several templates or scripts you can use to reach out to clients, and finally it reveals the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word and we’ll send you a copy for free. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eddie. Kira Hug: All right, Eddie, we want to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Eddie Shleyner: Oh, well, I guess it was a pretty organic thing for me because I majored in English. I was an English major. I studied literature at U of I, and that's what I wanted to do, I think. I wanted to graduate and write novels and short story anthologies, and obviously that's It's really hard to do right out of college, so I had to get a day job. I got a job in sales, and I was selling software. I was selling computers. It was basically inside sales, but it was trying work for me. I didn't really enjoy it. I think I really wanted to write, and so after about a year in that role, my buddy came home. My roommate came home and he said that his work was looking for a copywriter. And I didn't know what a copywriter was. Actually, I had to look it up. I knew somebody was out there writing these ads, but I didn't know they were called copywriters. So this goes to show how little I knew about this discipline in this profession before getting into it.  But I looked it up and I was like, yeah, sure, I'll try that. And I went in and I think I got the job just on the back of my English degree, because It was a brand new department. They were writing job ads. It was a contract role. I wasn't getting any health insurance. I was making $15 an hour. So it was one of those. And I took the job just because I was like, hey, I can make a living writing. And quickly learned that my worth in that role was based on how many times I can get people to click and how many times I can get people to take an action. And so independently, just kind of doing my research, realized that I was doing something called direct response copywriting. And then I kind of went down the rabbit hole. I got really interested in that profession and that discipline and started consuming as much as I could about it. I started just reading books and watching seminars, listening to podcasts, reading articles. Yeah, whenever I would come into an insight, whenever I would hear a principle or a technique that was really compelling to me, I would try to write about it. And that turned into a very good copy eventually, my blog and my newsletter. And then, you know, it just kind of progressed from there. So I think that that's how I got into copywriting was kind of a slow burn. Rob Marsh: Do you have a novel in your desk drawer that you've been working on in the background, Eddie? Eddie Shleyner: Thanks for asking, man. It's not a novel. It's an anthology of my work, but yeah, there is something that I've been working on, if that's what you're getting at. Rob Marsh: Yeah, we'll wait for that to hit the bestseller list so we can talk about it then. In the meantime, you know, as you were studying, as you're learning, obviously podcast books, whatever, what were like the main sources that you used or that you were there were your go tos that you were pulling this stuff from? I'm asking mostly because I know there are beginners who are listening to the podcast and may want to replicate that, learn and write about these insights and learning ideas. Where'd you go? Eddie Shleyner: Well, the first book I picked up was by Joe Sugarman. It's called The Adweek Copywriting Handbook. And I really wore it out. I mean, it was so overwhelming in its completeness. I just felt like it covered so much. And what was really interesting about that book was when I picked it up and I started reading it, being a literature major and studying English all those years and reading the classics. And I started reading and I was like, man, this sounds like it's like reading air. You know, it was like it was so simple and so plain. I was almost unimpressed at first. I was like, well, you know, is this really the resource that I should be reading? Is this really where I should be gathering information? Because it seems so trite at first, because it was so simple. But I think that was just the first couple pages, and then I realized that this was really just a treasure trove of information about direct response copywriting. And not just that, but it was something to emulate.  It was a writing style that I needed to emulate, and I referred back to it time and time again and copyworked it time and time again so that I can get that so I could get it into me, you know, the type of writing, the tone that he was using and the word choice and just the sentence structure and the simplicity in general. I really wanted to write that way and not the way that I was writing in college. You know, I had an editor that was like, “you write like a fire hose, I need you to write like a nail gun.” And that was Joe Sugarman. Joe Sugarman was so intentional about every word that he used. He was even intentional down to the punctuation marks. He wouldn't use unnecessary commas. He was always trying to save space on the page, make it as simple as possible. And so, yeah, I took a lot away from that, both in the principles and techniques of direct response, but also just in the style and how those guys wrote. Kira Hug: So you shared your lessons. It sounds like you were learning and writing and sharing. Yeah. What was the reason for that initially? I mean, we can look back now and say, that was really smart, because now you've developed this entire resource and website, and you've grown since then. But what was your initial thinking with that? Eddie Shleyner: Well, my initial thinking, I think, was that, you know, I missed writing. This was coming off of an entire writing and literature education, so I missed just the act of sitting down and composing vignettes and these little stories, which is something that I did pretty regularly, I think, in college. And so I think I missed it a lot, and I wanted to have an outlet for that. I wanted to exercise that a little bit. Also, I just thought, hey, if I can write about this clearly and concisely, if I can make it engaging, if I had control of this concept on the page, then that meant that I was ready to use it in my own promotions and my own ads. I think that was probably the driving force. They say millennials want to document everything in their lives. Maybe I just wanted to have some way of documenting all of this effort that I was putting in. I don't know. It's a good question. It's hard to pinpoint exactly why I chose to do that, but somewhere in the intersection of those three things is the answer, I think. Rob Marsh: When you weren't only documenting what you were learning, you know, as part of your blog, you started interviews with other copywriters. Yeah. And there's some really good copywriters that you interviewed for that. Yes. I'm not necessarily putting myself in that category, even though I was part of that, that series. But I am curious, were there lessons that you learned from them as you did those interviews and post those on your website that you look back and think, oh, yeah,

Most copywriters and content writers don't give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that's a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer—especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Jason's Offer for Copywriters The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When is the last time you thought about your client’s experience—that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don’t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you’re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven’t thought about that at all. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again.  But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Jason. Kira Hug: All right, Jason, let's kick off with your story. Let's start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let's start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry. Jason Friedman: Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd. Like I opened the CD case, if you even know, people listen to this, but you don't even know what a CD is, right? But you open the CD case and on the album jacket, it said Lighting Box.  And so there was a company name there. I was like, I'm going to work for that company and I'm going to go on tour with Rush and I'm going to do this. And over the years, I've just been doing shows and doing performances of all these different things. And when I got out of school, I had the opportunity to do anything. Right. So what did I do? I sent my resume in and I went on an interview with that company and they hired me. And it wasn't all glamorous. I worked in the shop. I was coiling cables and washing things and just doing all the grunt work.  But one day came and they said, hey, you want to go out on the road? And I went out with Fleetwood Mac. And it was a small summer tour. It was only like 10 stops, but I was a roadie officially. Like I went out on a rock tour and it was awesome. And then I went out with Rush, which was my dream. And I also went out with Peter Gabriel as a tour and a variety of other smaller groups that probably most people don't know. But it was this culmination of setting that intention and having that kind of clarity of goal and just knowing that you're going to do it. And yeah.  And so it was a wild journey, being out on the road, doing those shows, like being in a situation where you are playing to an audience, right? We all do this in our businesses. We all have an audience. We have customers, we have prospects, but being in that environment where everyone is in a concert, we get there hours earlier, we're tailgating, we're sitting there, we're listening to the songs. We're so excited about what's going to happen.  What would happen if your customers were doing that with your business? They showed up early getting in the mood to learn from you or work with you or do something. And then when they're there, all the problems in the world fade away and they are so present and they're so involved and they're engaged and they're on their feet, they're dancing, they're jumping, they're singing along, they're sharing your words and singing your song for you. And then at the end, they go crazy with the standing ovation.  I grew up with that over and over and over again. It's intoxicating, right? And so being with these groups, you learn this. It's like the Mr. Miyagi, wax on, wax off. You start to see the things, the techniques, the tactics that you use that elicit that kind of response night after night with new people, different audiences, different crowds, how you get them that level of engagement. It was pretty cool. And for the people on the team, the employees, there's no better place to work than when you're creating that kind of joy and excitement and engagement with people.  So you see the front stage, what's going on with the customers and the backstage, what's going on with the team. And it was amazing. So I started there and then I went on to do some more legit theater. So Fiddler on the Roof, Jesus Christ Superstar, Man of La Mancha, same experience, right? Night after night, getting those audiences to have that kind of experience and have that transformation and playing a role, it was super fulfilling, super exciting. Rob Marsh: So while we're talking about that part of your career… that gets me thinking. Obviously, the experience is everything, but there's so much behind the scenes that goes into creating the experience. I mean lighting is just part of it, right? And as you're talking about it, I'm thinking about the message that we have as copywriters—or whatever businesses we're running—is a little bit like the music. We sit down, the musician sits down, writes a song, But then all of this other stuff has to happen to create an experience that is amazing. So talk just a little bit about the elements of how that all comes together. And obviously, the interest is in how you put together a rock concert for someone like Rush or U2 or whatever. But I really want to apply this to my business. What are those elements that I need to be thinking about in order to create an awe experience? Jason Friedman: Yeah. I love the question. Let me just start off by saying, like defining what I think experience is. So we have a frame of reference to level set, right? So, when I think of the word experience, experience is not something you do. Experience is something that someone has. It's not the cause, it's the effect, right? So experience in my mind, a customer experience, it's the result of all the things you've done, right? That allows the customer to feel something. So experience is a customer's perception of the interactions that they've had with your brand, with your business, with your copy, with whatever it is, right? It's a feeling and it's their perception of that feeling.  It changes based on where they start, right? If I come in and I'm having a horrible day, you're starting with me from a very different place than if I came just off that rock concert and I'm on a high, right? And part of understanding all of these things is how do we bring people in? What is that onboarding, if you will, that gets people in? And how do we look at our different customers or different avatars or personas who are going to be interacting with us, and understanding how to meet them where they are? It's not a one size fits all approach. And most businesses, most organizations, we kind of treat people that way, which is like, oh, here's the journey. And here's how people are going to come into our world. And we just assume it's going to be a fit for everybody.  So as we think about this, as you think about your copy, I'm not a world-class copywriter. I wish I was, but I know enough that I try to paint pictures with words. And I try to use as many senses as I can trigger and interact with. And I do that in my copy, but I do that in my business. And so I think about how do I?

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Is marketing unethical? What about tactics like scarcity or significance? Should copywriters be using these persuasive elements in their copy? If not, why not? And when is it acceptable? Our guests for the 385th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast are Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, hosts of their own podcast called Duped where they talk about the misuse of persuasion in marketing. Between the four of us, we figured out the answers to these questions and more (almost). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Duped Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: At some point in your writing career, most copywriters bump up against a persuasion tactic that just feels off. Or worse, they’re asked to do something they don’t feel good about. Maybe it’s as simple as adding a deadline timer to an offer with no real deadline. Or it might be something worse… like selling programs to people who can’t afford them, or who will never get the promised results. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I had a chance to speak with the dynamic duo behind the Duped Podcast, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur. We talked about those dubious marketing tactics, when it’s okay to use them, and when you need to be the adult in the room who says, this is going to far. If you’ve ever wondered where the line is when it comes to marketing ethics, this episode will give you something to think about. But first, I want to tell you abou The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few days. Now, let’s hear what Michelle and Maggie had to say… Kira Hug: All right, welcome, Michelle, Maggie. So good to have both of you here. Let's kick off with the catalyst. What was the catalyst for Duped and that partnership between the two of you? Michelle Mazur: Well, I believe it started with me. Maggie and I vox a lot about things we're seeing and chatting about it. I sent her a Voxer message and said, hey, I think we should do a limited series podcast episode where we dive into some of these topics. And that was the catalyst. We were already creating the content in our Voxer conversations. And we're like, well, what if we just open that up to a wider audience? And we intended just to do, I think, eight episodes and maybe a second season. And then we realized, oh, wow, we have a lot to talk about here. Rob Marsh: So for anybody who's not already heard duped or aware of duped or even met you, Maggie and Michelle, tell us a little bit about, let's just lay that groundwork. What is Duped and why should people be listening to it? Maggie Patterson: So Duped is a consumer advocacy podcast that is really designed to help consumers in the online business space make more critical, nuanced decisions. Because what we tend to see is a lot of stories of, I bought XYZ, or I signed up with this coach, and I had a really negative experience. And from my perspective as a business owner, there's two ways we can approach this. We can try to get every business owner to reform their practices, which we're never all going to agree. It's just not going to happen. Or we can educate consumers so that they're making purchasing decisions that are going to align with their values, their ethics, what they're actually looking for, and really do the job of vetting the things. Because we've all had experiences of things not being quite what we expected, but because these people are really great marketers, a lot of times really are using really amazing copywriters, we're easily persuaded. And persuasion is a double-edged sword. Michelle Mazur: And I think Maggie and I bring a unique set of skills to this conversation because. It is easy for her and I to clock what is happening, like what persuasion strategy is being triggered and being like, oh, they're using scarcity or they're using a combination of these to ratchet up the buying tension and pressure and then putting their solution as the only way to buy. And so we're skilled at seeing that. I really wanted to relay to people that, hey, if you fell for this stuff, it's not your fault. These are very strategic and intentional decisions business owners are making to sell and to sell as much as possible, to have the mythical six-figure, seven-figure business that we all hear so much about. And so being able to deconstruct and show people like, what's really happening here? And here's why you made the decision you did. So don't feel bad and don't stop trusting yourself. Because that's the other thing that really pains me is I see business owners who do get duped And then they blame themselves, like, I suck. I didn't follow the proven formula for success closely enough. And really, it's not their fault. And most of this one size fits all that is sold in the marketplace doesn't work for a lot of different business owners for a variety of different reasons. So taking that pressure and blame and shame off of it and being able to have a conversation and name it for people, I feel is really important. Kira Hug: Yeah, and I mean, copywriters consume a lot of online products and courses. So I think this is a great conversation for our audience. We're also influential with our clients, which I know we can talk about as well. But I want to go back to your Voxer. I want to get into your Voxer conversation. So I need to know the details of when did that conversation start? I mean, I know you two have been friends for a while. When did that conversation ratchet up and turn more serious? Is this 2020? Is this before then? And were there certain events that took place where you two were like, this is bigger than us chatting on Boxer. We need to go larger. Maggie Patterson: I think there's some interesting things in that. Michelle and I have been friends for, what, 10 years, Michelle? We've been friends for a very long time. Michelle decided we need to be friends, so now here we are. Michelle Mazur: Michelle did a little stalking of Maggie Patterson, too, because I was like, I'm gonna be friends with her. Maggie Patterson: And we've both been talking about, I mean, Rob and Kira, we've known each other for a long time, like, it's not a secret. I've always been, for lack of a better word, vocal about these things. And I've just been like, yeah, that doesn't sit right with me. Here's why. And so we've both been doing those things separately. And you know, we'd be having our conversations on Facebook Messenger, and that evolved into Voxer. And then I kind of went through the experience in early 2020, with the pandemic of I had too much time on my hands, didn't we all? And that's when a lot of things like some of the business practices that we had both clocked for a long time as being very, not productive or helpful for potential consumers, they really ratcheted up. And I just started getting more vocal in my own work. Michelle started getting vocal in her own work. Like I was just like, I'm going to pull the ripcord and put this out there. Michelle kind of had the same attitude. And then the two of us were like, Oh, yeah, we need to formalize this body of work more. Because we also knew that as people have been talking for so long, if we didn't talk about it, someone else was going to fill that gap in the market. And we decided to go for it. And then it's just kind of run away on its own three years later. Rob Marsh: So as we talk about this stuff, I think there's a tendency to start out and say, wait, hold on a second. marketing fills a purpose in business, right? And it's really easy. In fact, I've seen people stand up at events or whatever and say, wow, all of this stuff is really bad. And you guys aren't saying marketing is bad. At least my impression is that what you're really trying to do is take us back to a place of integrity. and say, okay, hold on a second. Let's start with helping people solve real problems in a way that doesn't take advantage of them. Does it go beyond that? Michelle Mazur: Yeah, I believe it does because I always say I'm marketing agnostic, but marketing is neither good nor bad, just like scarcity is neither good nor bad. It's all about how you use it. in your business. And since we are a very unregulated industry, Maggie and I talk about this a lot, there are no ethical standards for like, hey, when is it appropriate to use scarcity and when is it not? So everybody is making these personal decisions. So yeah, it's about bringing us back into integrity, helping people realize that, I mean, I feel like this is kind of the premise of both of our separate podcasts of like, there's more than one way to market. There's no one right way to market your business. You have options. And people for thousands of years have been marketing in ways that are in alignment, in integrity. And it seems like in this digital world, we got into … I almost look at it, I feel like it's like a timeshare salesman. We were taught to market and sell like timeshares people, right? Put on the pressure, get the credit card, get them to sign the contract. Give them all the bonuses just for showing up.

At some point in your business journey, you will hit a snag. An obstacle. A bump in the road. These bottlenecks hold you back from the kind of growth or results you want. In the 384th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with business consultant Josh Long about the various bottlenecks that hold us back and what to do to breakthrough and achieve more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Bottleneck Breakthrough by Josh Long (book) The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes Blue Ocean Strategy by Chan Kim. The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Every business—large and small, successful or struggling, profitable or barely scraping by hits it’s share of bottlenecks. If you’re struggling or barely scraping by, those bottlenecks are usually obvious. Not enough leads. Not closing enough projects. Or not enough profit. Identifying bottlenecks in a successful business can be a little more difficult… it takes a deeper look at what’s holding you back or slowing you down. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I had a chance to talk with business consultant, coach and author Josh Long. Josh is the author of a fantastic book, Bottleneck Breakthroughs, that is written to help business owners of all sizes figure out what’s holding them back. And during our conversation we stepped through what it takes to grow and build a business at all stages, and how our businesses are slowed down when we don’t pay attention to the six levers Josh wrote about in his book. We stepped through all six and if you’re a copywriter or content writer with your own business, you’ll definitely want to hear what Josh had to share. But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few weeks. Now to our interview with Josh… Rob Marsh: All right, Josh, I'm familiar with you and your book and some of the stuff that you do, but just to get started here and let our audience know, tell me a little bit about how you became a management consultant, business coach, author and all of the things that you're doing today. Josh Long: Yeah, Rob, thanks. Well, when I was in kindergarten and they said, what do you want to be when you grow up? I just thought, you know, that's what I want to be—a consultant. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Josh Long: Not quite, not quite on the radar. Back then I was trying to get into med school and I had a professor who suggested I get my MBA while I was waiting to get into med school. I didn't even know what MBA stood for. I got in and went to Fresno State. They had an entrepreneurship program. And you could major in your MBA in entrepreneurship. And I was like, that's crazy. And I loved it.  I had met my wife while I was in grad school, and every doctor that I knew that was married before med school wasn't married after med school. I knew that I valued her more than my career, so I decided to go the entrepreneurial route.  I got out, tried a software venture in grad school that failed, but it was a really cool opportunity. Then my roommate was in the mortgage business, so I got into the mortgage world. I quickly learned how little I knew how to run a company. So a friend of a friend introduced me to a guy named Dan Kennedy and I latched onto his stuff and just gobbled it up. And it really helped me understand what it takes to get clients, and to sell to clients, and to understand that dynamic of just building demand and then go from there.  And then I filed bankruptcy. I had a mortgage brokerage for four years, and went down in a ball of flames. And while I was licking my wounds, figuring out what I wanted to do, I had read a guy's book called The Ultimate Sales Machine by a guy named Chet Holmes. And I really liked it so I reached out to him and went to work for him and grew to be his right-hand man in that company for a couple of years. I ended up becoming marketing director and realized I could go out and do consulting on my own. I have done that since about 2010. And so that's how I ended up getting into management consulting through the door of Dan Kennedy and marketing and Chet Holmes and sales and I’ve been doing it ever since. Rob Marsh: So mentioned Dan Kennedy, Chet Holmes, you've worked with Jay Abraham, I think. Josh Long: Perry Marshall. Yep. Got to know Jay through Chet. They were good friends. I spent time down in Jay's office. He's a very kind, generous, brilliant man. Yeah, and I work closely with Perry Marshall. We've been partnering on a project for the last six years called Advanced Mastery Network, where we help companies that are trying to get across what I call a seven-figure desert. Because you can have a really great company in the $1 to $2 to $3 million range that becomes a cash cow. But you don't want to get stuck at five to seven million. You’ve got to get to 10 million if you're going to try to cross that desert. So we've been running that and Perry's a great guy. Obviously how we found each other. Rob Marsh: Perry introduced me to you through sharing your ideas. But you know, as you've worked with these masters of business—not even online business, but business—over the last decade or two, what are the biggest lessons that you've taken away from those guys? Josh Long: Yeah, well, the first one is, They have charisma for days like they're born with it. So anybody that thinks they want to be the next Dan Kennedy, J. Abraham, or Perry Marshall, I will tell you, you can't. It's not possible. You either have it, you're born with it, or you're not. I ended up teaching at Fresno State. I taught for four semesters, business plan writing and feasibility analysis in undergrad for entrepreneurs. The program director, who was my program director, Tim Stearns, brilliant guy, we would talk and we would debate, are entrepreneurs born or can they be made? And obviously, Tim is an educator. He was the chair of the entrepreneurship program. He created it. It was one of the only entrepreneurship programs in the nation. And so he wholeheartedly believes that entrepreneurs can be made.  This is one of the few places on fixed mindset, I would say, that I actually believe in. Otherwise, everything else is learnable and expandable. But I really do think entrepreneurs are born. I really think they have the DNA, the wiring, the charisma, the ability to communicate, the ability to take risks. And seeing that magnified in Dan and Jay and Chet and Perry—they're just wired to be on the stage.  The other fascinating thing is just how brilliant they all are and how fast their minds move and how fast they can synthesize ideas and data and connect dots. So that was really fun. And it was really fulfilling because I got to do that a lot with Chet. He and I would have a weekly call and we'd be going through strategy for clients. I was 15 years younger than anybody else in the company and the consulting side, and yet I was his go-to. I was his brainstormer. So that was really fulfilling to validate my ability to just connect those dots.  Other things I would say, being around those guys helped me realize that for you to get the most from them, you have to be incredibly coachable and wired in a way that you resonate with them. Because as coaches, as consultants, as advisors, there're a lot of different personality types, and there's a lot of ways that things can get done, right? You can skin a cat a lot of different ways. But To work with Dan or Jay or Chet or Perry, you've got to resonate with them. You've got to be in their lane, so to speak, on their frequency. Because their way isn't the only way. It's a very effective way, and it can work really well. And they've got troves of success stories. But I think this was important for me to realize because, like a guy that's really popular right now, Alex Hormozy, right? Brilliant guy. And he's a great educator. But his hustle and grind philosophy does not work with me, doesn't resonate with me one bit. I don't care. I'm not that money motivated. I have a family. I've got three teenage kids. I've got a great wife. I'm not gonna work 80-hour weeks just to achieve something. And so knowing that, I think, is another thing.  And I'd see people that would come into these orbits and feel bad because they couldn't get results following some of these guys' advice. And Chet was probably the most hard-nosed of the bunch. He had a very grinder persona. And caring, I mean, all of them have big hearts. I think Dan is the one that reveals his the least. He tries to be the grumpy curmudgeon, but he really does care about everybody. But Chet was the most grinding of the bunch. And I realized I could fit there, I could get along, but it wasn't my nature. Like, that's not who I am at my core. Rob Marsh: So this is an interesting idea, the made versus born idea, but also how much hustle does it take to be an entrepreneur? I actually posted on LinkedIn about this a little while ago, and there were a lot of people debating back and forth. A lot of people push back against the hustle culture.

Success in business isn't easy. But finding success requires you to do things you may not love—like creating relationships with potential customers daily, working on your business (not your client's) every day, or even going all in on a daily writing habit. In the 383rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob spoke with copyhackers Joanna Wiebe who says these (and several other daily activities) are her non-negotiables. They happen every day—no matter what. If creating your own daily non-negotiable is all you get out of this episode, it will be well worth your time, but there is so much more. So check it out... Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff you should check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It’s been more than seven years since we last chatted with today’s guest on the podcast. In the meantime, she just keeps growing her business. This time around we asked her about the ins and outs of working with family members, building authority, and doing what she calls the daily non-negotiables. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of CopyHackers Joanna Wiebe. Many of you know that Kira and I met in one of Jo’s programs. So we owe a lot to her. But just as importantly, Joanna is one of those online personalities who is just plain generous with her help and advice. And that’s likely a big part of why she’s been so successful. As usual, we think you’re going to want to stick around for this one. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve told you about the benefits you get as a member. We’ve been working hard on how to make The Underground even more useful and helpful to the copywriters and content writers who are members… if you listened to last week’s episode with Csaba Borzasi, you heard him mention the scorecard he uses to close 100% of his prospects on sales calls. We didn’t have a lot of time to discuss what the scorecard includes or how he uses it, but Csaba agreed to share all of that with the members of The Copywriter Underground. That presentation happens later this week and will be available in the Underground for a limited time. If you’d like to learn how to close 100% of your prospects on sales calls—by the way, that’s not a guarantee, but you will see how Csaba does it—you need to be IN the copywriter underground, which you can do by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And Csaba’s presentation isn’t the only upcoming exclusive we’ll be adding in the underground. We’ll have more to tell you about in the coming weeks.  thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Now to our interview with Jo… Kira Hug: All right, I'm gonna kick this off. You know, we're kicking off 2024, feeling mostly good so far, right? But when we look back at 2023, it's hard to not avoid the mammoth changes that took place in the writing space and the impact on the writers that we all know, and how difficult it was for many writers. Not all writers, some writers had great years, but for many, they struggled. And so, I would love to hear from you and your perspective on just like what are these shifts that you saw and what is working today that we should pay attention to in the writers that are more successful? Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. Rob Marsh: That'll only take an hour to answer. Kira Hug: I can't ask that in the last 10 minutes. Rob Marsh: Yeah, we'll just let you go for an hour. We'll end the episode and we'll just have you come back another time for everybody else's questions. Kira Hug: We have you for the next four hours, right? Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I want to hear what y'all have to say about this too. I can say my take. I know 2023 started off super scary for everybody, right? I mean, 2022, November, December was when people started flipping because of chat GPT. What was so funny, wasn't it funny? I was watching, I think it was John Oliver, his HBO show he does once a Sunday, whatever it's called. And they were talking about AI. And they were cutting to clips of this expert on AI who was saying what was going to change. And he's like, so this will impact copywriters and lawyers. And the second he said it, I was like, OK, wait. Suddenly, people know what copywriting is?  For all of these years, no one's had a clue what we do. And suddenly, it's all like, everybody knows what we do. And this is going to be replaced. So I was annoyed by that. But I think that kind of set the tone, like hearing those sorts of things set the tone for a lot of people. And I get it. It was like, It was a get on board, you know, befriend the bear before it eats you and then be a slave to the bear, which is scary and no one wants to do that. Writers already feel so insecure. Everybody already thought they could do our job. So to have this extra layer of like, oh, no, really, you don't have a job anymore. I know it turned off a lot of people who were already kind of spazzing because COVID had hurt everybody so badly, right? Like you're in mental recovery from COVID, then this news that your job is being taken away. And then everybody who's been working for software companies, sees all of those layoffs. So yeah, super tough year. And I think that it's one of those years for me where I'm like, yeah, some people didn't make it through. And God bless them and everybody who did make it through God bless us all. Because it's tough. It's obviously a tough go like that, simplifying it dramatically. The people who stayed are what I'm seeing at least are the people who've stayed and been successful about it. We're never doing the work that AI does. Anyway, they like, and by that, I don't I mean, I think what we've seen is AI can take your research and help you analyze it. So that's good using it as an assistant, which we've all heard, but like, so few people actually do, you know, use chat GPT as their or whatever tool, you can say Jasper, but everybody just uses chat GPT. So yeah, it's those who are able to, use it to make their work better and not be scared or intimidated by it. But that was really hard to come by, right? Like even saying that now, I know people are going to hear that and go like, sure. Like, oh, brother, it's so easy for you to say, just use it. But what if I'm a junior copywriter? Like a junior copywriter who doesn't know how to do what even chat GPT can do.  So those are the ones who, it's hard to admit it, but if you were junior and you didn't take this job very seriously, if you conflate content and copy, you probably had a really hard year and were thinking about leaving or you left. And so the ones that fit the question are like, what's working for those who stuck it out and are surviving now and are seeing their businesses grow. Like the people I'm seeing businesses, freelancing services, taking off in ways that we didn't before and so like it's just to me it's like it's the staying power one take your craft seriously so seriously that it's a no-brainer that I should hire you even if you use AI even if my company uses AI anybody who uses AI knows like wait is this good? Am I allowed to use this? Is this accurate? Is this even right? So if you took your job seriously and you took AI, seriously, not as a threat, but as an opportunity, and you stayed the course, those seem to be the people who are succeeding.  I know it feels like a place of privilege to say that, right? Like, how do you stay the course if you're not making money? How do you take the job seriously if you're still really new at learning it, and juniors aren't getting the same level of employment that more strategic, senior, conversion focused, or even just brand and creative and like big picture thinking focused copywriters are able to make. But I would say those things. Take the job seriously. Take AI seriously. Stick around. That's what I saw working. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think that's all smart. And I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but to me, AI feels like it was a smaller threat than the economy overall, especially in the SaaS and tech space where there were so many layoffs. There were so many changes in marketing budgets. And while, of course, AI has had an impact just like you described, I think that AI is getting blamed for a lot of the other stuff that's happening in marketing.  The other thing, and we haven't necessarily talked about this, but something that's happened over the last year, I'm sure you've seen it—everybody I know has seen it—our inboxes are flooded with the offers, I can find you 30 different potential calls… clients… whatever. I've helped somebody add $40,000 a month to their job. And because that outreach thing has happened (and a big part of that is AI too) I think the way that we have traditionally done outreach and found clients and direct messaged, that kind of stuff has slowed way down as impactful as well. And so it feels like, it's AI's fault, but a lot of it's just the economy and the way people are marketing, too. I don't know. We could have an argument about this. Kira Hug: Let's just blame AI. Let's just blame it. Use AI as a punching bag. It's more fun. Joanna Wiebe: I like having a villain. A villain is good and identifiable. Yes. So I hear you. So for me, the economy, yes, it's been hurting a lot of people. Then there's the other side of like, you know, what's really going on with layoffs? Is it just like a really good chance to scale back on, you know, there's an NPR show about this, people talk about this, the possibility that the layoffs are like, well, I have a bloated team, and it's hard for me to get rid of them. But if the economy is bad, and if Salesforce just laid off 10% of their staff, then I can lay off 10% of mine too. And, and it's not like,

A lot of copywriters talk about building a "real" business, that is a business that isn't solely built on writing copy for clients. In the 382nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Joel Klettke who used his writing and sales expertise, developed as a copywriter, to build a team and service business bigger than what he might have built on his own. And he shared what he's learned from the experience. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Over the past 7 years of publishing this podcast, it’s pretty rare that we bring guests back for a second visit. And the guests that have been back three times? I could be wrong but by my count, that’s only happened twice. Today’s episode makes it three.  Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of Case Study Buddy, Joel Klettke to catch up on what he’s been doing for the past couple of years. Joel has gone from being a top performing, in-demand copywriter to the founder of a million dollar business. And in our discussion, he shared some of the lessons he learned along the way. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the membership for copywriters and content writers… where you can find the training, coaching, copy reviews, and community you need to build a successful copywriting business. To learn more visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now let’s jump into our interview with Joel... Kira Hug: All right, so Joel, I'm not going to ask you how you ended up as a copywriter because we already covered that in episode, Rob, which episode? I know you know. Rob Marsh: Episode 21 is the first time and maybe like 107, I think, is the second time. It's been a while though. It's been a while since we chatted on the podcast. Joel Klettke: Yeah. I like these, it's almost like a snapshot in time, like journal entry to go back and listen to myself on somebody's life. Rob Marsh: How much better life was back in episode 107? Kira Hug: Well, going back to 21, I think that was the one I was listening to and reading the transcript from. That's when you were, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's when you were just starting case study, buddy, right? That was the origin of it when you were getting into case studies. Or was that 107? Rob Marsh: I think it was even before that. Kira Hug: Yeah, it was before that. We were introducing it. You had that business running at that time. Joel Klettke: Yeah, like technically Case Study Buddy is almost eight years old. It was off the side of our desks initially. And then right before the pandemic, we kind of pivoted to focus full-time on that. So that became kind of a big transition point. And then it's continued to be the full-time focus since then. So we've only really been two years, maybe three now, full-time pushing this thing. Kira Hug: Okay, well, let's go back then to before pandemic when you went all in and just curious, like what, what triggered that decision for you and your business partner to go all in on this business? Joel Klettke: I think there are a whole bunch of different factors. I think, you know, at the time, the grass is always greener in life in general, you know, like you always want to be doing that new thing. The headspace I was in at that moment was I had done the freelance thing and I'd done it well, graduated to basically being in a position of consulting for some pretty great brands, some really great projects. You get to the point that you are now making what your heroes made.  I remember listening to Joanna Wiebe talk about charging $10,000 for a landing page and thinking, that's so outlandish. And then I got there. And at that point, I was kind of hitting the ceiling. I felt like I was hitting the ceiling of my potential. I just wanted to keep growing. I wanted to change. I was finding when I was working on projects, I was going through this weird anxiety almost of like, now that I'm on this level, I have to keep delivering at this level. I have to keep being this person in this way. I still had a lot of work.  It wasn't like I was forced into a pivot, but it was kind of like, in the meantime, we have this other thing going on off the side of our desks that is growing under its own steam. It's kind of gone from you know, $17,000 in its first year, very, very part time to, you know, then maybe like 38. And then you had this big jump up to 80. And then all of a sudden, you're 200. And then you're 800. And now you're approaching a million. And meanwhile, you haven't really spent full time energy or effort. So you start to wonder, you know, what could this thing be if we really devoted when I say we I'm talking about myself.  And for those who don't know, there's a partner in the business named Jen who I used to work with agency side. And then we teamed up on this thing. So it was growing a lot. And it kind of looked like, hey, this is an opportunity to maybe build something that might outlast me. It's a chance to grow in new and different ways to build a team, to build a process, to move out of the craft per se and into the business side of business. And so it was that combination of lots of potential growth alongside this desire to keep learning and keep growing myself that just made it seem like, yeah, now we got a strike while the iron is hot. And so we did. Rob Marsh: So we're not going to talk about every piece of your journey, Joel. But just looking back, I'm curious, over the past couple of years, what would you do differently to build? If you're going to build the same business that you've built right now, Are there things that you would do differently that you didn't do the first time that might impact where you are today? Joel Klettke: Yeah, I think I had, in some senses, before I get into the most present, what I do differently. In some senses, I had a test balloon. Because when I was doing business casual full-time, I tried to build a team. And it went miserably. I focused so much on the profit side of it and the potential for that that I overlooked the people side of it and the process side of it, especially, and focusing on making it scalable from the beginning. which, you know, I didn't make the exact same mistakes with Case Study Buddy, but there's certainly things that, you know, I, in retrospect or in hindsight, it's, it's easy to see where you might've deviated.  So one of those things is like, I was petrified of the whole idea of hiring and like full-time, like, how do you know when you can bring someone in and like, isn't there a lot of paperwork and like the government and all, you know, like that whole notion, even though it wasn't that complicated in retrospect, it kept me back from you know, making some of those decisions. And so for a long time, you know, we held off on bringing other people in outside of pure production roles until we absolutely needed to. So for example, one of our first not staff, but more of like a full time retainer was a gal named Morgan on the projects and operations side of things. And the difference that made when I talk about that jump from like, 200 to like 800.  That was the introduction of Morgan and operationalizing the process and having someone whose full-time job was the process. I think when you're so used to coming from a freelance thing where the work is the process and it's just you, you don't realize how quickly stuff breaks and needs to be reinvented and how quickly that becomes a full-time focus until you're in the thick of it. So we held off on that just too long. And once we had someone in that seat, the growth just exploded and the ability to focus elsewhere was colossal. So I would have brought an operations person in much, much earlier. I think By the same token, one of the lessons we're learning now years later, case studies, especially customer stories, are such a variable product and timeline. Namely because there's so many stakeholders inherent in it. There's you and your team, there's your client, there's your client's customer, and then within there, there can be lots of legal PR.  In the beginning, I really looked at this as like a productized business, like set a price, buy a thing, it's this much for a case study. And that worked until it really, really didn't work. Because now when you start to hire these fixed full-time staff, you're incurring overhead all of the time. Whether or not you can execute on that work or not, if a project hits pause and you've only billed $3,000 for it, every month that holds in pause, you're paying somebody to chase up on it and your margin gets eliminated. So I think I would have looked and tried to be more in tune with how the decisions we'd made around the underlying model of the business were influencing the business. But when you're growing, everything seems like it's going great. Like, well, we're growing. How could anything be wrong? And you kind of don't realize until you take a really close look, like, hey, there's some things we really need to address here.  I think one other thing I would mention, it's like the cliche You hear a lot of people talking about hiring slow, firing fast. I'm a people pleaser. I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I want people to win. You want every hire you make to work out. You want to believe that you made the right call. You want to believe that everyone can succeed and thrive and will find their footing.

Want to make your copy better? More persuasive? More conversion-oriented? The way to do it may be understanding the psychology of your reader. In the 381st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Csaba Borzasi who explained how he uses psychology to make his copy better. And maybe more importantly, Csaba also explained how he uses a scorecard during his prospecting calls that helps him close almost 100% of his prospects. This is definitely one you'll want to stick around for. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When many of us start out as copywriters, we're interested in the words. How do we organize them so that they sound right or so that they sound better? Which words should we use to communicate this benefit or this feature? Or which phrase will make the best call to action? But after a while, we tend to become less interested in the exact words, although they are still important, and we still do get a lot of joy out of writing them. And we become more interested in the psychology behind the words. We start asking questions like, which emotions should my reader be feeling as they read this? What beliefs do I need to shift? What do they need to know or think or feel in order to take the next step?  Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club, and on Today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed Csaba Borzasi, a copywriter with extensive training in applied psychology and plenty of experience helping shift beliefs and with writing emotional copy. Csaba shared how psychology applies to what we write every day. He also shared his process for diagnosing his client's business problems that virtually guarantees that they're going to ask for his help on a project. And by the way, this single bit of advice that he gives, this insight could be worth thousands of dollars in new work for you in the coming year. So you're definitely going to want to make a note of it.  Finally, we talked about why his welcome sequence is nine months long. There's some good stuff in this episode, so get out your notepad and your pen because you are going to want to take some notes.  Now, this is when I normally jump in to tell you all about The Copywriter Underground, all the copywriting business trainings that are in there, the monthly coaching calls, the weekly copy critiques, the community. If you've been listening to the podcast for very long, you've heard me mention all of those things over and over, and yet you still haven't jumped in. Don't wait any longer. If you've got plans to grow your business in 2024, visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and find out more about this vibrant community of copywriters who are working hard to do the same thing that you want to do. And now let's go to our interview with Csaba. Kira Hug: All right. So Csaba, let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Csaba Borzasi: Yeah, so great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Well, I was basically born and raised in in the Transylvania region of Romania. So but I'm not a vampire, I promise. But as an ethnic Hungarian, actually. So it was a totally different culture compared to what you might consider conducive to becoming a copywriter, especially in English, especially on the U.S. market. Right. So basically, I like I always liked to read. I was always a little kind of like a black sheep in my family because they don't even speak English, unfortunately. And they were always telling me, like, why are you learning English? Like, where are you going to use English? And I was like, no, no, no. But I can get better information this way. So I always loved getting information.  And then during my studies, I studied psychology, first business, then psychology. And then I landed a job at IBM, which was like the typical corporate job that everybody complains about. So I kind of, I think I've been there for more than a year, one and a half years or something. And then I felt like this isn't for me. Then I became a direct salesperson for a wealth management company, a supposedly prestigious wealth management company, but turned out it was kind of a scam. Well, not necessarily a scam, but they were still ripping people off with stuff and there was lots of dodgy things going on.  So then I had a friend who was already doing copywriting, on Upwork and he said like, Csaba, you like psychology and I know that you like to read a lot, you like communication and persuasion and just studying it, so I think this could be a natural fit for you because you could combine marketing and business and psychology and I was like, but aren't copywriters supposed to like do legal stuff, you know? the typical thing that some people think. And then he kind of showed it to me, like how it works and how he's landing clients on Upwork.  And I was like, well, that's pretty cool. So I gave myself two weeks to actually get as much info as possible on the topic and then start landing a client. And I think after like three weeks, I had my first client, which was a sex shop. So I really learned the concept of writing desire building bullets for all sorts of weird thingies. And that's a story. Rob Marsh: You've given us a lot. Yeah, exactly. Lots of options here. So before we jump into any of the history, there are a lot of people who want to be copywriters who do not start out speaking English. And America, Britain, Australia, they tend to be the biggest opportunities, the biggest markets for copywriting. So how did you bridge that gap? Obviously, you knew English before you started as a copywriter, which certainly helps. But what advice would you give to copywriters who are not necessarily native English speakers so they can polish that language so that it doesn't show up, you know, the way that it often does and puts them at a disadvantage? Csaba Borzasi: Sure, that's a great question. Well, obviously, the better you are at English, the better it is and the easier it is to land clients, especially nowadays when clients are, I think, used to zoom calls or interviews or, you know, stuff like that. But ultimately, I think if you can convey that you're easy to work with, you know what you're doing, and you're just you can solve a problem for a client. They just give you money and you solve their problem. And you start small. You are kind of like, you don't have a big ego. I think it doesn't necessarily matter that much, especially if you maybe bundle something else with just pure copywriting. Maybe you do email list management or something. Maybe you do the button pushing part. Maybe you set up sequences. Maybe you do A-B tests on landing pages or something like that. I think these things are relatively easy to learn and can give you like a one-two punch when it comes to landing those clients and them seeing you as more than just a vendor. Kira Hug: So you gave yourself two weeks to land your first client when you sat down and you're like, I'm going to be a copywriter. What were you doing during those two weeks specifically to then land that client? Csaba Borzasi: So I mentioned that before this, I was working at a job as like a salesperson for a wealth management company and their whole pipeline of commissions. I was working based on commission. Everything took like three to four, maybe even sometimes five months. So for me, landing an appointment and generating a sale for them, it took like five months for me to actually get paid. And when I got laid off from there, they didn't pay any commission. So I had lots of deals in the pipeline and it was just, that's it, like we're not going to pay you anything. And it was, I don't know, like more than $10,000, which was a lot of money for me at that point, a lot of money.  So I basically had like one month savings. And that's why I felt the natural urgency to do something, like I cannot just mess around with this. I have to make it work. So for two days, I started Googling. I went to YouTube. I tried to consume every piece of free, sometimes even paid, like lower priced information that I could. Fortunately, I didn't land on like Dan Lok or, you know, someone like that who was selling copywriting at that time. But I landed, I found the Ben Savenga bullets, for example. I found the Boron letters. I found some stuff from John Carlton. Surprisingly enough, I found a Clayton Makepieces blog. And obviously, I realized that this is huge. I have to focus on one thing there.  And then I think I already had a knack for selling because, as I said, I was a direct salesperson before that. I was making like 50 cold calls per day, which I hated. But still, I mean, it gives you like a natural way to persuade people. And yeah, I think I was also fortunate enough a little bit because I, that friend that I mentioned in the beginning, he also gave me some templates like outreach templates and how to write your proposals. It still took some time and manual labor, but yeah, two, two, three weeks. And I was, you know, ready. Rob Marsh: And since we're talking about that first client, which was the sex shop, tell us a little bit about that experience and what it takes to, obviously, a sex shop has items for sale that are not necessarily boring, but you may have to talk around some things in order to sell them. So tell us about that experience and how you made the products attractive and turned that into additional assignments down the line. Csaba Borzasi: As I said, one of the first things I read was Bencivenga Bullets, and the whole concept of bullets was new to me. So I started Googling, like, what are bullets? What are fascinations? And then I realized, oh, if you can write these desire-building bullets,

Is writing for non-profit organizations any different from writing for other businesses or clients? It turns out, the answer is "yes". Because most of the time your "customer" won't receive a product or service when they "buy". And that means you need to be very good at providing the experiences and stories they want in the copy you write. Our guest for the 380th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Shterna Lazaroff and she's got a lot to say on the topic, so stay tune Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you're looking for a niche with lots of clients and plenty of money to spend, you could do a lot worse than writing for the nonprofit sector. As of a couple of years ago, there were more than 1.49 million charitable organizations in the United States alone and hundreds of thousands more in other countries. And spending at nonprofits accounts for more than $2.46 trillion. And that, again, is just in the United States. If you add in all of the other countries in the world, it's double or triple that. And some portion of that is paid to copywriters.  Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kara Hug, and I interviewed Shterna Lazaroff, who has spent a good part of her career focused on fundraising and helping nonprofits succeed. While many of the principles of good copywriting apply to writing for charity, Shterna tells us that there are a few differences, so you may want to stick around to hear what they are and perhaps use that knowledge to land a client in the nonprofit world for yourself.  Now, this is where I usually break in and talk a bit about the Copywriter Underground. I could do that again. I could tell you about the training. I could tell you about the community. I could tell you about the copy critiques, the copy coaching that happens there every month. You've heard me talk about all of that stuff before. So my real question for you is what are you waiting for? What is keeping you from going to thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and at least checking out all the resources that are listed there?  There's a ton of information there about what it includes and what being a member will get you. And just, you know, as a selfish point, being a member is a great way to support this podcast and all the other resources that we provide for copywriters and content writers. So that URL again to visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU, check it out. And if it's a fit for you, join, join the more than 200 other copywriters in there who are working hard to build a successful business.  Now let's jump into our interview with Sterna Lazaroff. Kira Hug: All right, let's kick off as we do with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Shterna Lazaroff: So every job I've ever had has always had what to do with writing. I was always like the family writer, the one doing every time someone in the family needed something. So when I first was looking for my first job, just ended up was actually the editor of my high school magazine was working at like a small local kids magazine and I had worked with her in high school. She reached out, she's like, Hey, do you want a job editing for me? So that was my first, first job ever. And I had always wanted to be a writer. It was always like when I was younger and you asked me what I wanted to do, I always said I wanted to be a writer. But there was this conception that like everyone used to tell me like writers don't make money and it's not really sustainable income and all that. And then When I left this magazine after two years, I had this period of like, I don't know what to do next. And I was still very young. And I remember having this realization. I was like, wait, I just spent two years hiring writers. Why can't I be one of the writers that people are hiring?  I had until then thought that the pretty much the only way to use like my writing skills was on the editorial side because writers don't make money and I was like I'm paying them money so I'll be the one who's getting paid and so I started writing um I started writing actually the first few things I started with were articles for two of the biggest Jewish magazines that are distributed globally like hundreds of thousands of families read them every week. And I basically started writing for those and eventually discovered copywriting. I had started working part-time in a nonprofit. And as I was researching all the writing work I was doing for them, they were just like, we need an in-house writer. And I was like, sure, I could write. And I like nonprofits. I actually discovered that what I was doing was this thing called copywriting. And that's when I kind of went full force in and took it from there. Rob Marsh: Talk a little bit about that shift from the content you're writing to copywriting, because oftentimes people talk about them being different skills. I actually don't think they're all that different. I think I've been vocal about that in the past. But as you started to make that shift, what did you have to do differently? What kinds of things were you trying to teach yourself and learn so that you could apply those skills in a new way? Shterna Lazaroff: It's a good question. A lot of the core things overlap, like I would say the ability to write under tight constraints or with a tight work hand or to communicate something under very specific guidelines is something that definitely overlaps from content to copy. The main difference is probably that with content, I think you have a bit more leeway to make the takeaway be whatever you want it to be, as opposed to with copy, there's usually a very clear end goal. You're putting that piece out because there's something you want from it, as opposed to with content, or at least the kind of content I was doing as a magazine writer, I was doing a lot of feature lifestyle pieces. It was really just the goal was to entertain. And with copy, the goal is really to not just give people a good way to spend a half hour reading, but to actually get them to do something with what you're saying. So there was a bit more like focused on like with every word that you're writing, you're really thinking about like, is this moving me forward to what we want to happen because of this piece? Kira Hug: Yeah. And with entertainment, I mean, I think entertaining can be hard. So what is something, how do you think about entertaining in your content and your copy? Like what are some of your, I don't want to call them tricks. What, how do you approach it? Shterna Lazaroff: I think it's, it overlaps with the reason why I chose my niche in nonprofit copywriting where as a content writer, I was, I always loved telling people's stories and, and writing those things, someone who had like a very interesting life or did something of real impact and featuring it and giving a spotlight to that. And so the skills that I was using a lot were like these very strong storytelling skills and really drawing people into the narrative and making them feel whatever I wanted them to feel at the time. And it's one of the reasons that I think I was very drawn to nonprofit copywriting aside from, you know, the mission. And I like knowing that my work is meaningful, but I think that the skills actually overlap a lot. And this is something that I've had a few arguments with people about, but I, I would argue that nonprofit copywriting more than other niches, relies very, very much on specifically strong writing skills. I think there are a lot of industries in the copy world where you can, you always have to have a basic level of strong writing, but you can compensate for weaker writing skills in terms of having a really good like CRO background or a lot of industry knowledge and a lot of copy conversion skills, as opposed to nonprofit copywriting, where of course all of that comes in. But at the end of the day, the narrative and the emotion and all of that that you're bringing into it is very much going to weigh heavily on the level of writing skill you bring to the table. So that was something that very much overlaps between the both of them. Rob Marsh: That makes a lot of sense because with most non-profits, you're not really getting anything in return for what you spend as opposed to if you're buying a course or a book or a vacation or whatever. What you're buying is that experience of giving. So I, I'm curious, like, okay, in addition to just like storytelling or being very emotional, are there other things that you're thinking about when you're writing for, you know, a nonprofit clients that you're making that experience of engaging with the, you know the letter, the request for funding or, you know, the donation letter, whatever that is so that that actually becomes an experience. Shterna Lazaroff: So I lean very heavily back on what we were saying, which is the storytelling part of it, the really drawing people in with like a strong hook, a strong narrative, something that immediately puts them in that person's shoes or in that situation where they can feel everything you want them to feel so that there's no doubt in their mind that this is something that they can, not only they can, that they want to be part of in a transformation they want to make possible. Other than that, copywriting, I'm saying I borrow a lot from just typical conversion skills where let's say building in, I wouldn't say scarcity, but always having, answering the question of why now. There always has to be a reason where like some sort of urgency of, oh, here's a reason why you should not just read this letter and be inspired, but read this letter and know that the opportunity to make this specific change is running out.