The Copywriter Club Podcast

Copywriter Kim Kiel shares how she built her business slowly and steadily, focusing on improvement over time and avoiding the hustle. Topics include setting boundaries with clients, managing project scopes, and strategic planning for business success. She also talks about marketing strategies, podcast development, and intentional growth strategies in copywriting.

What does it take to become a copywriter? How do you learn the skills you need? What are the best ways to "get in the game' so to speak? In the 388th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Eddie Shleyner about the process of becoming a copywriter—and how he made the jump from literature student to booked-out-copywriter and author of a book about copy. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Eddie's website Full Transcript: Most weeks on the podcast we take some time to dive into a different copywriter’s origin story. Why they became a copywriter. How they made the switch from whatever they were before to what they do now. It’s a process we all go through, and yet, we tend to skip over a lot of the details. We jump from one client to the next, or from this service to that product. We cover a lot of what and don’t go very deep into the how. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and soon to be book author, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie shared the details of how he learned to write copy, the feedback he got along the way, and the books he found most helpful. And that’s just the beginning. We also talked about sabaticals, burnout and book writing. This is a good one, stay tuned.  But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. We recently updated our guide to finding clients… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… things you can do today to attract a client—maybe even in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take a bit longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free.  But don’t just download this document and let it die on your hard drive. If that’s your approach, don’t bother. This isn’t a one page pdf that’s easy to ignore. It’s a comprehensive… 36 page mini book… that includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will run away from you—the exact opposite of what you want. I already mentioned it includes more than 21 ways to find clients, as well as several templates or scripts you can use to reach out to clients, and finally it reveals the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word and we’ll send you a copy for free. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eddie. Kira Hug: All right, Eddie, we want to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Eddie Shleyner: Oh, well, I guess it was a pretty organic thing for me because I majored in English. I was an English major. I studied literature at U of I, and that's what I wanted to do, I think. I wanted to graduate and write novels and short story anthologies, and obviously that's It's really hard to do right out of college, so I had to get a day job. I got a job in sales, and I was selling software. I was selling computers. It was basically inside sales, but it was trying work for me. I didn't really enjoy it. I think I really wanted to write, and so after about a year in that role, my buddy came home. My roommate came home and he said that his work was looking for a copywriter. And I didn't know what a copywriter was. Actually, I had to look it up. I knew somebody was out there writing these ads, but I didn't know they were called copywriters.

Most copywriters and content writers don't give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that's a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer—especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Jason's Offer for Copywriters The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When is the last time you thought about your client’s experience—that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don’t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you’re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven’t thought about that at all. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again.  But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Jason. Kira Hug: All right, Jason, let's kick off with your story. Let's start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let's start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry. Jason Friedman: Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd.

Brand builder Amanda Goetz shares her secrets for realistic productivity, creating flywheels, and adding 1000 subscribers to her newsletter monthly. She discusses personal branding, social media strategy, career transitions, and building sustainable momentum in achieving goals.

Is marketing unethical? What about tactics like scarcity or significance? Should copywriters be using these persuasive elements in their copy? If not, why not? And when is it acceptable? Our guests for the 385th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast are Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, hosts of their own podcast called Duped where they talk about the misuse of persuasion in marketing. Between the four of us, we figured out the answers to these questions and more (almost). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Duped Podcast Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: At some point in your writing career, most copywriters bump up against a persuasion tactic that just feels off. Or worse, they’re asked to do something they don’t feel good about. Maybe it’s as simple as adding a deadline timer to an offer with no real deadline. Or it might be something worse… like selling programs to people who can’t afford them, or who will never get the promised results. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I had a chance to speak with the dynamic duo behind the Duped Podcast, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur. We talked about those dubious marketing tactics, when it’s okay to use them, and when you need to be the adult in the room who says, this is going to far. If you’ve ever wondered where the line is when it comes to marketing ethics, this episode will give you something to think about. But first, I want to tell you abou The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few days. Now, let’s hear what Michelle and Maggie had to say… Kira Hug: All right, welcome, Michelle, Maggie. So good to have both of you here. Let's kick off with the catalyst. What was the catalyst for Duped and that partnership between the two of you? Michelle Mazur: Well, I believe it started with me. Maggie and I vox a lot about things we're seeing and chatting about it. I sent her a Voxer message and said, hey, I think we should do a limited series podcast episode where we dive into some of these topics. And that was the catalyst. We were already creating the content in our Voxer conversations. And we're like, well, what if we just open that up to a wider audience? And we intended just to do, I think, eight episodes and maybe a second season. And then we realized, oh, wow, we have a lot to talk about here. Rob Marsh: So for anybody who's not already heard duped or aware of duped or even met you, Maggie and Michelle, tell us a little bit about, let's just lay that groundwork. What is Duped and why should people be listening to it? Maggie Patterson: So Duped is a consumer advocacy podcast that is really designed to help consumers in the online business space make more critical, nuanced decisions. Because what we tend to see is a lot of stories of, I bought XYZ, or I signed up with this coach, and I had a really negative experience. And from my perspective as a business owner, there's two ways we can approach this. We can try to get every business owner to reform their practices, which we're never all going to agree.

At some point in your business journey, you will hit a snag. An obstacle. A bump in the road. These bottlenecks hold you back from the kind of growth or results you want. In the 384th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with business consultant Josh Long about the various bottlenecks that hold us back and what to do to breakthrough and achieve more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Bottleneck Breakthrough by Josh Long (book) The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes Blue Ocean Strategy by Chan Kim. The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Every business—large and small, successful or struggling, profitable or barely scraping by hits it’s share of bottlenecks. If you’re struggling or barely scraping by, those bottlenecks are usually obvious. Not enough leads. Not closing enough projects. Or not enough profit. Identifying bottlenecks in a successful business can be a little more difficult… it takes a deeper look at what’s holding you back or slowing you down. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I had a chance to talk with business consultant, coach and author Josh Long. Josh is the author of a fantastic book, Bottleneck Breakthroughs, that is written to help business owners of all sizes figure out what’s holding them back. And during our conversation we stepped through what it takes to grow and build a business at all stages, and how our businesses are slowed down when we don’t pay attention to the six levers Josh wrote about in his book. We stepped through all six and if you’re a copywriter or content writer with your own business, you’ll definitely want to hear what Josh had to share. But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few weeks. Now to our interview with Josh… Rob Marsh: All right, Josh, I'm familiar with you and your book and some of the stuff that you do, but just to get started here and let our audience know, tell me a little bit about how you became a management consultant, business coach, author and all of the things that you're doing today. Josh Long: Yeah, Rob, thanks. Well, when I was in kindergarten and they said, what do you want to be when you grow up? I just thought, you know, that's what I want to be—a consultant. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Josh Long: Not quite, not quite on the radar. Back then I was trying to get into med school and I had a professor who suggested I get my MBA while I was waiting to get into med school. I didn't even know what MBA stood for. I got in and went to Fresno State. They had an entrepreneurship program. And you could major in your MBA in entrepreneurship. And I was like, that's crazy. And I loved it.  I had met my wife while I was in grad school, and every doctor that I knew that was married before med school wasn't married after med school. I knew that I valued her more than my career, so I decided to go the entrepreneurial route.  I got out, tried a software venture in grad school that failed, but it was a really cool opportunity. Then my roommate was in the mortgage business,

Success in business isn't easy. But finding success requires you to do things you may not love—like creating relationships with potential customers daily, working on your business (not your client's) every day, or even going all in on a daily writing habit. In the 383rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob spoke with copyhackers Joanna Wiebe who says these (and several other daily activities) are her non-negotiables. They happen every day—no matter what. If creating your own daily non-negotiable is all you get out of this episode, it will be well worth your time, but there is so much more. So check it out... Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff you should check out: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: It’s been more than seven years since we last chatted with today’s guest on the podcast. In the meantime, she just keeps growing her business. This time around we asked her about the ins and outs of working with family members, building authority, and doing what she calls the daily non-negotiables. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of CopyHackers Joanna Wiebe. Many of you know that Kira and I met in one of Jo’s programs. So we owe a lot to her. But just as importantly, Joanna is one of those online personalities who is just plain generous with her help and advice. And that’s likely a big part of why she’s been so successful. As usual, we think you’re going to want to stick around for this one. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve told you about the benefits you get as a member. We’ve been working hard on how to make The Underground even more useful and helpful to the copywriters and content writers who are members… if you listened to last week’s episode with Csaba Borzasi, you heard him mention the scorecard he uses to close 100% of his prospects on sales calls. We didn’t have a lot of time to discuss what the scorecard includes or how he uses it, but Csaba agreed to share all of that with the members of The Copywriter Underground. That presentation happens later this week and will be available in the Underground for a limited time. If you’d like to learn how to close 100% of your prospects on sales calls—by the way, that’s not a guarantee, but you will see how Csaba does it—you need to be IN the copywriter underground, which you can do by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And Csaba’s presentation isn’t the only upcoming exclusive we’ll be adding in the underground. We’ll have more to tell you about in the coming weeks.  thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Now to our interview with Jo… Kira Hug: All right, I'm gonna kick this off. You know, we're kicking off 2024, feeling mostly good so far, right? But when we look back at 2023, it's hard to not avoid the mammoth changes that took place in the writing space and the impact on the writers that we all know, and how difficult it was for many writers. Not all writers, some writers had great years, but for many, they struggled. And so, I would love to hear from you and your perspective on just like what are these shifts that you saw and what is working today that we should pay attention to in the writers that are more successful? Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. Rob Marsh: That'll only take an hour to answer. Kira Hug: I can't ask that in the last 10 minutes. Rob Marsh: Yeah, we'll just let you go for an hour. We'll end the episode and we'll just have you come back another time for everybody else's questions. Kira Hug: We have you for the next four hours, right? Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I want to hear what y'all have to say about this too. I can say my take. I know 2023 started off super scary for everybody, right? I mean, 2022,

A lot of copywriters talk about building a "real" business, that is a business that isn't solely built on writing copy for clients. In the 382nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Joel Klettke who used his writing and sales expertise, developed as a copywriter, to build a team and service business bigger than what he might have built on his own. And he shared what he's learned from the experience. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Over the past 7 years of publishing this podcast, it’s pretty rare that we bring guests back for a second visit. And the guests that have been back three times? I could be wrong but by my count, that’s only happened twice. Today’s episode makes it three.  Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of Case Study Buddy, Joel Klettke to catch up on what he’s been doing for the past couple of years. Joel has gone from being a top performing, in-demand copywriter to the founder of a million dollar business. And in our discussion, he shared some of the lessons he learned along the way. But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the membership for copywriters and content writers… where you can find the training, coaching, copy reviews, and community you need to build a successful copywriting business. To learn more visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now let’s jump into our interview with Joel... Kira Hug: All right, so Joel, I'm not going to ask you how you ended up as a copywriter because we already covered that in episode, Rob, which episode? I know you know. Rob Marsh: Episode 21 is the first time and maybe like 107, I think, is the second time. It's been a while though. It's been a while since we chatted on the podcast. Joel Klettke: Yeah. I like these, it's almost like a snapshot in time, like journal entry to go back and listen to myself on somebody's life. Rob Marsh: How much better life was back in episode 107? Kira Hug: Well, going back to 21, I think that was the one I was listening to and reading the transcript from. That's when you were, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's when you were just starting case study, buddy, right? That was the origin of it when you were getting into case studies. Or was that 107? Rob Marsh: I think it was even before that. Kira Hug: Yeah, it was before that. We were introducing it. You had that business running at that time. Joel Klettke: Yeah, like technically Case Study Buddy is almost eight years old. It was off the side of our desks initially. And then right before the pandemic, we kind of pivoted to focus full-time on that. So that became kind of a big transition point. And then it's continued to be the full-time focus since then. So we've only really been two years, maybe three now, full-time pushing this thing. Kira Hug: Okay, well, let's go back then to before pandemic when you went all in and just curious, like what, what triggered that decision for you and your business partner to go all in on this business? Joel Klettke: I think there are a whole bunch of different factors. I think, you know, at the time, the grass is always greener in life in general, you know, like you always want to be doing that new thing. The headspace I was in at that moment was I had done the freelance thing and I'd done it well, graduated to basically being in a position of consulting for some pretty great brands, some really great projects. You get to the point that you are now making what your heroes made.  I remember listening to Joanna Wiebe talk about charging $10,000 for a landing page and thinking,

Want to make your copy better? More persuasive? More conversion-oriented? The way to do it may be understanding the psychology of your reader. In the 381st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Csaba Borzasi who explained how he uses psychology to make his copy better. And maybe more importantly, Csaba also explained how he uses a scorecard during his prospecting calls that helps him close almost 100% of his prospects. This is definitely one you'll want to stick around for. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: When many of us start out as copywriters, we're interested in the words. How do we organize them so that they sound right or so that they sound better? Which words should we use to communicate this benefit or this feature? Or which phrase will make the best call to action? But after a while, we tend to become less interested in the exact words, although they are still important, and we still do get a lot of joy out of writing them. And we become more interested in the psychology behind the words. We start asking questions like, which emotions should my reader be feeling as they read this? What beliefs do I need to shift? What do they need to know or think or feel in order to take the next step?  Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club, and on Today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed Csaba Borzasi, a copywriter with extensive training in applied psychology and plenty of experience helping shift beliefs and with writing emotional copy. Csaba shared how psychology applies to what we write every day. He also shared his process for diagnosing his client's business problems that virtually guarantees that they're going to ask for his help on a project. And by the way, this single bit of advice that he gives, this insight could be worth thousands of dollars in new work for you in the coming year. So you're definitely going to want to make a note of it.  Finally, we talked about why his welcome sequence is nine months long. There's some good stuff in this episode, so get out your notepad and your pen because you are going to want to take some notes.  Now, this is when I normally jump in to tell you all about The Copywriter Underground, all the copywriting business trainings that are in there, the monthly coaching calls, the weekly copy critiques, the community. If you've been listening to the podcast for very long, you've heard me mention all of those things over and over, and yet you still haven't jumped in. Don't wait any longer. If you've got plans to grow your business in 2024, visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and find out more about this vibrant community of copywriters who are working hard to do the same thing that you want to do. And now let's go to our interview with Csaba. Kira Hug: All right. So Csaba, let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Csaba Borzasi: Yeah, so great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Well, I was basically born and raised in in the Transylvania region of Romania. So but I'm not a vampire, I promise. But as an ethnic Hungarian, actually. So it was a totally different culture compared to what you might consider conducive to becoming a copywriter, especially in English, especially on the U.S. market. Right. So basically, I like I always liked to read. I was always a little kind of like a black sheep in my family because they don't even speak English, unfortunately. And they were always telling me, like, why are you learning English? Like, where are you going to use English? And I was like, no, no, no. But I can get better information this way. So I always loved getting information.  And then during my studies, I studied psychology, first business, then psychology.

Is writing for non-profit organizations any different from writing for other businesses or clients? It turns out, the answer is "yes". Because most of the time your "customer" won't receive a product or service when they "buy". And that means you need to be very good at providing the experiences and stories they want in the copy you write. Our guest for the 380th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Shterna Lazaroff and she's got a lot to say on the topic, so stay tune Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: If you're looking for a niche with lots of clients and plenty of money to spend, you could do a lot worse than writing for the nonprofit sector. As of a couple of years ago, there were more than 1.49 million charitable organizations in the United States alone and hundreds of thousands more in other countries. And spending at nonprofits accounts for more than $2.46 trillion. And that, again, is just in the United States. If you add in all of the other countries in the world, it's double or triple that. And some portion of that is paid to copywriters.  Hi, I'm Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today's episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kara Hug, and I interviewed Shterna Lazaroff, who has spent a good part of her career focused on fundraising and helping nonprofits succeed. While many of the principles of good copywriting apply to writing for charity, Shterna tells us that there are a few differences, so you may want to stick around to hear what they are and perhaps use that knowledge to land a client in the nonprofit world for yourself.  Now, this is where I usually break in and talk a bit about the Copywriter Underground. I could do that again. I could tell you about the training. I could tell you about the community. I could tell you about the copy critiques, the copy coaching that happens there every month. You've heard me talk about all of that stuff before. So my real question for you is what are you waiting for? What is keeping you from going to thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and at least checking out all the resources that are listed there?  There's a ton of information there about what it includes and what being a member will get you. And just, you know, as a selfish point, being a member is a great way to support this podcast and all the other resources that we provide for copywriters and content writers. So that URL again to visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU, check it out. And if it's a fit for you, join, join the more than 200 other copywriters in there who are working hard to build a successful business.  Now let's jump into our interview with Sterna Lazaroff. Kira Hug: All right, let's kick off as we do with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Shterna Lazaroff: So every job I've ever had has always had what to do with writing. I was always like the family writer, the one doing every time someone in the family needed something. So when I first was looking for my first job, just ended up was actually the editor of my high school magazine was working at like a small local kids magazine and I had worked with her in high school. She reached out, she's like, Hey, do you want a job editing for me? So that was my first, first job ever. And I had always wanted to be a writer. It was always like when I was younger and you asked me what I wanted to do, I always said I wanted to be a writer. But there was this conception that like everyone used to tell me like writers don't make money and it's not really sustainable income and all that. And then When I left this magazine after two years, I had this period of like, I don't know what to do next. And I was still very young. And I remember having this realization. I was like, wait, I just spent two years hiring writers.