The Copywriter Club Podcast

Want your copy to stand out and get notice? Communication Specialist Sam Horn is my guest for the 443rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Sam talks about how to take “regular” ideas and make them “pop”. If you want to get noticed by potential clients, or want to help your clients get noticed by their customers, this episode is for you. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Sam’s LinkedIn Pop!: Create the Perfect Pitch, Title and Tagline for Anything by Sam Horn Tongue Fu by Sam Horn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: Want your copy to get noticed and remembered? There are a couple of simple tricks that will help you do that. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. The ability to help your clients get noticed and remembered is one of the main things they pay you for. And to find clients in the first place, you need to be able to get prospects to notice and remember you. If you can’t do this one thing… you really can’t help them with anything else because they never engage with you. There are lots of psychological techniques that help people notice you… or help people remember you… or make people want to engage with you. So what are they? I asked communication specialist Sam Horn to walk through some of these techniques. Sam is the author of the book Pop: Create the Perfect Pitch, Title, and Tagline for Anything. She walked me through a bunch of the tricks she uses to coin new phrases so her readers raise their eyebrows. One of the things you’ll notice as you listen is that Sam uses these techniques as she talks with me… you’ll hear rhymes, juxtapositions, cliches, and patterns that demonstrate exactly what she is sharing as we talk. The ideas and insights we discuss go well beyond typical persuasion techniques like urgency and scarcity to create a more fun, human, and interesting connection between the ideas you write about and your audience. This is a different sort of interview… because Sam actually workshops an idea for a presentation I am planning on offering to listeners of this podcast. As she goes through the ideas I share with her, you’ll notice she starts throwing out ideas and insights I might use when I’m ready to share my presentation. It demonstrates the insights she shares—especially her advice to show the shift as we communicate what we sell. Near the end of the interview, Sam walked me through the questions she asks as she starts writing a book—and she’s written a bunch of them. If you’re thinking of writing a book yourself, some of these questions may be useful for you. I think you’ll like what Sam has to share. Before we get to my interview with Sam, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. Unless you are hitting the 30 second skip button when you get to this point of the show, you are no doubt familiar with The Copywriter Underground. I talk about it every week. The Underground includes more than 70 different workshops—and accompanying playbooks to help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. The Playbooks make it easy to find quick solutions to the challenges you face in your business everything from finding clients, conducting sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn YouTube or Pinterest, and dozens of other workshops. You also get dozens of templates, including a legal agreement you can use with your clients, monthly coaching, regular copy and funnel critiques, and more. You can learn more by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Sam Horn… Sam, welcome to the copywriter club podcast. I would, I mean, I’m thrilled to have you here. You know, author of nine books, everything about language and communication. But before we get into all of that stuff. I would like to know how you got here. How did you become an author, speaker coach, I guess, an intrigue expert, and all of the other things that people have called you.  Sam Horn: Okay, so how about I’ll go two places with that. Sound good? We’ll, we’ll start with the original origin story. Okay? Because I think our originality is in our origin story. So I grew up in a small town, more horses than people, and I was, like, elected as valedictorian of my class. A small town, big deal, right? So I put together my little graduation speech, and I shared it with my dad, who ran Future Farmers of America for the state of California. And you may know they understood speaking was very important. So I asked for his feedback, and he said, it’s an okay talk. He said, You just didn’t say anything I hadn’t heard before. It was the little bird leaving the nest homily, you know? And I said, But dad, there’s nothing original under the sun. And he says, of course there is. He said, You know what the definition of original is, if we haven’t heard it before. And you know, Rob, I at a very early age, I realized that if I’m going to ask people for their valuable time, mind and dime, it is my responsibility to create and craft something that they haven’t seen or heard before. Rob Marsh:Okay, so that was origin number one, what’s origin number two.  Sam Horn: Origin number two. You may know that I helped start and run the Maui Writers Conference. Writers digest said it was the best writers conference in the world, and we did something that was unprecedented at the time. You could jump the chain of command. You could pitch your screenplay to Ron Howard. You could pitch your novel. People to the head of Simon and Schuster. I mean, that had never been done before. And after the first round, a woman came out with tears in her eyes. And I went over, I said, are you okay? She said, I just saw my dream go down the drain. And I said, what happened? She said, I put my 300-page manuscript on the table. The agent took one look at it and said, I can’t read all that, tell me in 60 seconds what it’s about and why someone would want to read it. And I talked with Bob Loomis, who was senior VP of Random House that night, and I said, Bob, I’m seeing a lot of people’s dreams go down the drain today. What’s going on? And he said, Sam, we’ve seen 1000s of proposals. We make up our mind in the first 60 seconds whether something is commercially viable. And Rob that next day, I stood in the back and I watched the pitch sessions, and I could predict who is getting a deal without hearing a word being said. Guess how  Rob Marsh: I’ve got to guess that it’s in the look of the face of the person they were pitching—they were interested in something.  Sam Horn: It gets really specific, the eyebrows. Because see, like, if we’re telling someone our idea, if we’re proposing something, if we’re pitching our book or whatever, if the decision makers eyebrows like, crunch up your eyebrows right now. Don’t you feel confused? Right? Confused, or like I’ve got to look into this deeper, maybe, or I don’t understand exactly. You know what’s going on here. Get you know that happens rarely, however. You know today’s attention span, right? If people don’t get it, they’re gone, right? So if people’s eyebrows are knit, furrowed, crunched up. It means they don’t get it and are confused. People don’t say yes. Now if their eyebrows don’t move, it means they’re unmoved, or they’ve had Botox. Now, lift your eyebrows, if you would. Ah, do you feel intrigued? Curious? Like you want to know more. You know, I became a woman on a mission. I founded the entry agency. Because if we want other people to care about what we care about, we’ve got to turn info obesity into the eyebrow test.  Rob Marsh: Okay, so let’s, let’s talk a bit about that, because this is not just so I’m thinking about this in two different ways. Number one, copywriters and content writers are working for clients, and the work that we do has to get the attention of their customers. Whatever we put out there has to get attention, otherwise it doesn’t work. But maybe even more importantly, before that can happen, copywriters and content writers have to get the attention of their prospects and their future clients, and if that doesn’t happen, they never get to write anything. So how do we do it? How do we get attention?  Sam Horn: Well, as you know, there’s a whole book pop, and my book got your attention on that. So here are a few specific techniques. And by the way, rob your audience is copywriters. I hope they have 10 and paper right now, because we’re going to jump right in and I’m going to share techniques that have helped my clients, you know, get millions in contracts, deals, etc. So grab your pen and paper and… Rob Marsh: I’m just going to underline that… you mentioned, Pop your book. Before we started recording, I said, I think this is one of the better books the writers ought to be using. It’s not really about writing so much as it’s about how to make your words pop, literally, the title of the book. So if you haven’t got it, we’ll link to it in the show notes. Make sure you pick up a copy. But yeah, let’s talk about some of those ideas.  Sam Horn: Good. Well, let’s talk about how content writers and copywriters have two bosses, right? First, their decision maker, right, to get their attention and their favorable attention. Oh, I am here. Oh, that’s clever. Oh, yes, that will work. And then it needs to drive business, right? It needs to actually drive traffic to the store or registrations for the whatever. So I’ll give you a quick example of how we do this. Is that I believe, don’t repeat cliches, rearrange cliches, right? So whatever the topic or the product or the demographic is, we can just start writing down what do people know is true about this? What do they believe about this? You can just go to the cliche dictionary and put in what are cliches around this, right? But we’re not content to be common, because George Washington Carver said, when you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world.  So see, we take what is known, and our goal is to make it unknown. We take what’s familiar, we want it to be fresh. So Avon is an example they were going to hit. They were having their breast cancer walks, right? And they were looking for a tagline. So if you go to the COVID cliche dictionary and you put in, you know, walks, right? Well, they couldn’t find anything walk, don’t run, on and on. So now you look for cliches. It’s alphabetical order with a keyword that’s alliterative, that starts with the same sound or letter as yours. They came up with a wonderful slogan. Do you know what it is?  Rob Marsh: I should know what it is. I don’t have it at the top of my head, though. Sam Horn: It’s good things come to those who walk. Nice, right? You shift off weight. And now, when you’re close to what’s familiar, and you give that little twist, the eyebrows go up, right? You know how Einstein knew he had a good idea? Rob Marsh: I’m guessing that it made his eyebrows go up. Sam Horn: He laughed out loud, right? Because I know, when I’m working with clients, you know, I’m taking notes on what they’re saying. I’m inking it when they think it et cetera. And when the dots connect and I get a new entity, it’s like the eyebrows fly up and out comes this, aha, right? This bark of laughter. That means, Eureka, we have found something that’s worth pursuing. From a psychological standpoint, the newness of the idea of a cliche that’s been changed a little bit. It’s almost like unlocking a puzzle and it clicks in your brain and it makes it stick, which is maybe another part of making sure that we’re memorable. In fact, in a moment I’ll get, I’ll share my formula for turning what’s forgettable into what’s repeatable and retweetable. Sound good? Rob Marsh: Yes, let’s do it.  Sam Horn: Let’s go back to your first question about another way we can make something pop—how we can pop out of the pack instead of get lost in the pack, how we can stand out from the crowd instead of get lost in the crowd.  We’re going to Mary Oliver our life. I bet everyone who is part of your community understands that our life is our lab, right? We constantly have our antenna up and we Mary Oliver. She said, instructions for life, pay attention. Be astonished. Tell about it, right? Anytime we’re astonished, oh, isn’t that? I haven’t heard that before. It’s got potential, then we figure out how we can run with it so that it is practical and relevant and functional, going to drive results. So I’ll give you an example. The University of Hawaii asked me to do a program and conflict resolution, uh, boring, right? And if we’re a bore, snore and unsure, it’s not gonna work. So I turned it into dealing with difficult people without becoming one yourself. Now that’s a good title, because it’s Alliterative. When you put it in a beat, you make it easy to repeat, right? So it’s dealing with difficult people without becoming one yourself. So that is it pretty good title. Here’s the thing, though, you go in and you put into search difficult people, 1000s of people, right? Speaking about that, hundreds of books. So see, it won’t pop out. It’s clever, but it still is not one of a kind. It’s still one of many. Well, I was very fortunate Rob, because at our first break, there was a gentleman in the front row. He didn’t get up to go get a cup of coffee. You know, go outside. He just sat there, gazing off into space. I was curious, and I went over. I said, What are you thinking about? And he said, Sam, I’m a real estate broker. He said, I deal with some very demanding and arrogant people. He said, I’m tired of it. He said, I took this course because I thought you were going to teach us some zingers to fire back at people and put them in their place. He said, that’s not what this is about. And I agreed, this is not about putting people in their place. It’s about putting ourselves in their place so we can respond with compassion instead of contempt. And he was the one who said, I’m a student of martial arts. He said, I’ve studied karate, taekwondo, judo. He said, what you’re talking about is like a verbal form of Kung Fu, isn’t it? Eureka, Tongue Fu, right? Tongue. Fu, an original word I was able to trademark that I’ve been able to merchandise and monetize it. It’s still selling around the world. It’s the one of the top business books in Turkey for 20 years, number three in South Korea, 20 years after it was published, they said it’s changing the patriarchy.  Now, let’s put it into practice for your community, for everyone watching and listening is like, I hope you have a word bank. If you’re working with the client and they want you to sell a product or a service or a new launch, whatever, just come up with 20 words that you would use when frequently explaining that describing right? That’s your word bank. Now, alphabetize each word. Take a word, run it through the alphabet, changing the sound of the first syllable to match the corresponding letter. So see, let’s take Tongue, Fu, Un Fu, Bun, Fu, Sun. Fu, Done Fu…. So you go, Oh, Fun Fu, that’s how to handle hassles with humor instead of harsh words, Gung Fu, Gong Ho, Kung Fu, there’s a Lung Fu, Run Fu for when Tung Fu doesn’t work. Tongue Su for lawyers. It’s Young Foo for kids. Do you see how, if you take a core word, it’s meaningful to your client, you run it through the alphabet, you can come up with first of their kind words. Maybe can get the domain around it, you know, maybe have a one of a kind campaign about it all for just a little bit of brain work.  Rob Marsh: I remember the first time I saw Tung Fu and also your title, talking on eggshells, those kinds of unique twists. I mean, immediately I just, I thought, That is freaking brilliant, you know. And it’s one of those things where I’m like, Man, I wish I had come up with that. It’s such a unique idea. But oftentimes, you know, we’re not, we don’t have the luxury of, you know, being in a conference with somebody, you know, talking back forth. Oftentimes, when we’re trying to come up with these ideas, we’re sitting at our desks, and it’s not always easy even, you know, with some of the tools that you’re sharing. Like, you know, alphabetize it or find the cliche Right. Like, so, how do we make ourselves more creative in these office spaces where sometimes the creativity is pulled out of us? Sam Horn: Okay? Paper and pin right? Okay, put a vertical line down the center right now, because people say, Sam, how does your brain work? I juxtapose everything. Rob, it is the quickest way to make complex ideas crystal clear. Furthermore, my Got Your Attention book was published by Barrett Kohler, who is publisher of the year. A few years ago, Steve presente was the publisher. And I said, Steve, what is your criteria for publishing a book? He said three words, ready? Okay, show the shift. Show the shift. So everyone right now think of something, a campaign. They’re working on a client. They’re working with some type of copy they need to write over on the left, right now, put beliefs and behaviors that sabotage success all right—so put beliefs behaviors that sabotage success. Now over on the right. Put beliefs and behaviors that support success. So it’s sabotage on the left, support on the right. Now also on the left. Put compromise. You know, what are attitudes and actions that compromise our effectiveness? Over on the right? What are attitudes and actions that contribute to our effectiveness. So in a moment, we can do this for a campaign you’re working on, or you’re going to name your book, or something like that. We can play I’ll give you an example of how this works. Is that we just were talking about Tung Fu, so I gave a tongue food workshop for Kaiser Permanente, and I went back three years later as a patient, and when I walked in, the receptionist recognized me, and there wasn’t anyone in the lobby, and she beckoned me over, and she pointed, and her “words to lose words to use” reminder card was still taped to her desk.  And now here’s the story. She said, Sam, they hired me because I’m the first point of contact. I’m pretty nice, and I never used to understand why people were so mean to me when I was so nice to them. And then I took your workshop, and I realized I was using all those words on the left, you know, well, I’d like to help you, but, well, you should have called earlier. I’m sorry, but I can give you an appointment right now, because you know he’s out, you know, he’s out of the office this week, whatever. So, and then replace it on the right. So what I’m telling everyone, if over on the left you have what doesn’t work and what does when you are writing copy, people read left to right. And furthermore, you know, if it’s long, they’re gone. So if we have a paragraph longer than four lines, people don’t read it. They skip it or skim it right. However, if we put over, you actually put a vertical line right down the center of a website. You put it down, right down the middle of a pitch, and over on the left is like, you know, you may think that did that, did up. Are you struggling with deduct? Did that? You know? Are you tired of deducted? Up, bullet, bullet, bullet, right? Because Rob, they can eyeball it. They don’t have to read it. They can eyeball it. Now we have, yes, that’s exactly what I’m thinking. Yes, that’s how I feel. Yes, I’m dealing with that. Would you like wouldn’t it be wonderful if? And now, here is the preferred behavior. Here is, you know, the solution to the problem, etc. However, here’s the thing. Is that if you write that out, you know, people’s attention span these days, they’re going to start skimming, scanning it, and they don’t. Get the shift right? They don’t get the Yes, that’s true for me. Yes, that’s happening in my life. Yes, that’s a problem for me. And they don’t get the AHA, the immediate gratitude, gratification, right? Of like, yes, I would like that. It’s the opposite of this, yes, that would be wonderful. And it’s, do you see how that framework can be used. I just used it for one example. However, I use it at the end of every chapter in every book, because it summarizes it, it reinforces it. And guess what? Now you have like a business card people put on their refrigerator, and they’re keeping you in sight, in mind, instead of out of sight, out of mind.  Rob Marsh: This is a technique that should be familiar to copywriters anyway, because we are our very jobs depend on our ability to take somebody from the pain or the problem or, you know, the concern that they have right now, and help them see how the product or service that we’re writing about is going to produce a transformation, a result a better future, right? And so you’re basically saying, draw it out and use it, you know, as part of the brainstorming session, the naming, you know, in the thinking process, as we’re trying to figure out, okay, how do we stand out?  Sam Horn: Yeah, you see, Rob, I knew that this would resonate with you, because it is part of what you do. And we talked a little bit in advance about infobesity, right? Everybody over on the left put infobesity won’t want, won’t want. Gone right? We can’t earn a living if we’re spewing in obesity. We’re not going to get deals. We’re not going to get results. No, we’re not going to earn our living. Over on the right is the eyebrow test. Okay? If, if, in that first 60 seconds, even someone who is skeptical or busy is now motivated to pay attention. So would you like a specific technique that that your community can use around that? Yes, please. Okay, so juxtapose it over on the left, put infobesity Over on the right. Put eyebrow test over on the left. Put tell, over on the right. Put ask. Now we both believe you give a real life example to show how this works in the real world. Then we unpack it, we reverse engineer it so it’s replicable, correct? Yeah. Okay, so here’s the real life example. I was pitch coach for Springboard enterprises, and they’ve helped female entrepreneurs generate 91 billion in funding and valuation contracts at this point. So Kathleen calendar was one of my clients, and she came to me, Sam, I got good news and bad news. I said, what’s the good news? She said, I’m speaking in front of a room full of inventors and investors at the Paley Center in New York. I said, that’s fantastic. I said, what’s the bad news? She said, I’m going at 230 and I only have 10 minutes. She said, Sam, you can’t say anything in 10 minutes. I said, Kathleen, you don’t have 10 minutes. You have about 60 seconds. 60 seconds. That’s right, they will have heard 16 other it’s 230 in the afternoon. Well, Rob, here is the 62nd opening we came up with that not only one. Kathleen calendar of pharma jet millions in funding. She was business week’s most promising social entrepreneur of that year. So now first perspective, infobesity on the left. Do you know how Kathleen used to introduce what she had invented her business, etc. Ready? I don’t, yeah, tell me. It’s a medical delivery device for subcutaneous inoculations. It’s a what look. Oh, no, those eyebrows, right? She just explained it. She told me what it was. And a lot of times it’s confusing, right? We don’t get it. We’re gone. Now listen to this 62nd opening ready. Did you know there are 1.8 billion vaccinations given every year? Did you know up to a third of those are given with re used needles? Did you know we’re spreading and perpetuating the very diseases we’re trying to prevent. Imagine if there were a painless one use needle for a fraction of the current cost. You don’t have to imagine it. We’re doing it. She’s off and running. Are your eyebrows up?  Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, it almost sounds like the beginning of a TED Talk.  Sam Horn: Well, hey, I work with a lot of people on their TEDx talks, or South by Southwest talks, the UN talks, or Davis talks. And I cannot tell you, you know, how many people are gone in the first 62nd this talk we’re going to it’s like, yeah, no. So you are right now. Let’s unpack it, because everyone watching, listening. I want you to think right now. In fact, Rob, what is something? Are you giving a presentation in the near future, or you have a campaign, what’s a priority? And we’re going to do this in real time.  Rob Marsh: I don’t have a formal presentation coming up, but I am actually going to be working on a workshop on AI Artificial Intelligence and how to use it to create custom gpts for writers in their business. So basically, to help some of that repetitive task stuff get done by an AI, as opposed to having to go through that ourselves. Okay, so that was a pretty boring way to talk about my, my upcoming workshop.  Sam Horn: Yes, well, we’re going to do, we’re going to go over to intrigue. We’re going to go over to eyebrows up, right? So, first, here are the three steps, so that everyone who’s listening and watching can do this for their priority while we’re doing it for your priority. Okay, step number one. What are three? Did you know questions you can ask with startling statistics that get eyebrows up and people are thinking, Where do I find these startling we just, we just Google it, right? It’s like, you know, and we need to put in what are surprising statistics about this demographic, about this product, about this problem. And our goal is, if we’re an expert and it’s like, oh, I didn’t know, is that bad? Oh, I didn’t know it’s getting worse. Oh, I didn’t know that many people being affected. I didn’t know it cost that much. I didn’t know it took that long. Do you see? Oh, right. Now, furthermore, since we’re asking instead of telling, we just turn this into a two way conversation instead of a one way conversation, right? Explaining is one way, you know, no, asking is two way right.  Step two, use the word imagine. The word imagine pulls people out of their preoccupation, because they’re picturing our point. They are seeing what we’re saying. And when something confusing becomes clear, fact right over on the left, confusing, over on the right, clear. Do you know what people say when something comes confusing becomes crystal clear. I finally understand it now, or I get it. Oh, I see now, really, literally and figuratively, they see it now, right? That’s the power of that word imagine now link it still step two, link the word imagine with three benefits or advantages of what it is you’re recommending or requesting. For example, go back to calendar, you know, Kathleen. Think about her decision makers. What are they worried about? Thinking about? Well, they’re thinking about those reused needles, so we made it one use. They’re thinking about painful inoculations. We made it painless. Most decision makers care about money, so we made it a fraction of the current price. Do you see how, in a world of infobesity, we crafted a one sentence? UVP, unique value. Where people going sounds good. Who wouldn’t want that in one sentence? Right? And plus, there’s continuity, right? Because we’re referencing back what we said in the beginning, third step. Write down these words right now. You don’t have to imagine it. We’re doing it now you come in with your precedence and your evidence to show this isn’t pie in the sky. This isn’t speculative. This is a done deal. Here’s a testimonial from a satisfied client. Here’s some recent a recent article that talks about your company or about this, this new advance, right?  So you’ve got the three steps. Now, let’s do it for you. All right. All right, okay, so the workshop. What’s your title of the workshop?  Rob Marsh: I don’t have a title just because, again, I just started thinking about this earlier today, but I would probably say it’s something like how to create a custom GPT for copywriters.  Sam Horn: Yeah, very basic, right. Okay, so we start there and now, Rob, how about we have an agreement and I do this with all my clients and audiences. If I say something, if it is in alignment with your vision, voice and values, you’re welcome to run with it. If I say something, you think, No. Doesn’t work for me, interrupt me, and we’ll tweak it or toss it, okay? Rob Marsh: Okay, sounds great.  Sam Horn: Okay, because I’m gonna jump in with both feet here. So how to something once again? How to what?  Rob Marsh: How to create a custom GPT for your writing business, or for your copywriting business, for your writing business.  Sam Horn: Okay, now I know you’re a copywriter, so there are pros and cons of how to right is, the pros, of course, is that people feel they’re going to get taught. And in the old days, a how to book was a business book was, you know, and there’s a promise of deliverables there. Well, in today’s infobesity world, sure, sometimes people don’t want to be taught, right? And how to if they’re low on bandwidth. So let’s see if we can play with that and and let’s use the word surprising, right? Not even seven, seven steps two, which is still prescriptive, still for someone who’s low on bandwidth is feeling like it’s eight o’clock. At night, I just don’t have the energy, but surprising ways, right? Unexpected. Do you see we’ve just up leveled it, we curated the content a little bit. Now we have a creative chat GBT for your business, but let’s put a verb in there. Is this growing? Is this scaling? Is this future proofing, what would be a verb that would pop that growing is probably good. There’s also probably some ideas just around creativity or coming up with, you know, more options. So and growing kind of lends itself to that kind of an idea too, right? Okay, all right. Now we’re playing, you know, this is, this is like word chess, right? We’re thinking a couple of moves ahead. So we have one option of using a verb, like growing your business. Now we’re back to what George Washington Carver said. He said, When you can do a common thing in an uncommon way, you will command the attention of the world. So we go back and you ask yourself, is growing charged enough, right? Is it? Is it got? Because John Carter, out of Harvard, said, You know what the number one prerequisite is for change?  Rob Marsh: I don’t know what he said, no. Sam Horn:  A sense of urgency. Okay, so does that have urgency? The word growing, right? Rob Marsh: Yeah, probably not, because growing your business is almost a cliche in itself, right? We’ve heard that now for 20 years. So it’s gonna fade in with everything else that’s out there.  Sam Horn: Okay, now, by the way, this is why we ink it when we think it. You had a little pop opportunity there, because the cliche is, grow your business. Maybe you would say, flow your business, right? How to flow your business? Right? Now, that’s a LinkedIn blog, right? Because we’re riffing off what. And just like jazz musicians riff off common chords to make uncommon music. You could do that. So that’s an opportunity. Let’s come back here to no surprising ways to create chat, chat gbts. What did you use? Form systems? What? Well, Rob Marsh: I said a custom GPT to get…  Sam Horn: Yeah, custom GPT, custom GPT. Okay, is it, I’m just playing, is it a three step custom GPT? What is it? Rob Marsh: It could be. It really depends on what process we’re trying to automate with the GPT. So it’s, it’s, I mean, it’s pretty easy to do, but you have to understand what it is that you’re building from start to finish.  Sam Horn: I understand, and I also think we have an opportunity here, because a lot of people in this space, even in the title, we want people to say, I haven’t seen that before. It’s specific enough, if it’s pragmatic enough, it’s intriguing. It got my attention. And even in the title, I already have a little trust in faith that this is going to be an ROI, right? And as you know, numbers matter, right? It’s seven habits. Stephen Covey, you know, it’s four agreements, etc. So if you say surprising ways to create a customized three step chat. GPT, you know, or something like that. Do you see we up level the promise, a little bit in terms of the deliverable, all right. And now, now we’ve switched to to something your business. We need a bottom line. It is to and boy Rob, every day I fight not going over to the dark side, you know, because we know all the gimmicks, right? You know, just for today. Just count, you know, only for you. I try not to do that. I really try to be in integrity, honor, psychology, and do it in a way that I’m not pulling a bait and switch on people, right? So, now we come down to, it’s not just for your business, right? It’s for your business to do what, or for you to do what? Run with that for a second.  Rob Marsh: Let’s say that we were building a custom GPT for a research process. When you talk about the three questions, the questions might be something like, do you realize, or did you know, the average copywriter spends 20 hours researching before they can even start writing? And then the promise of this GPT might be to reduce that from 20 hours to 10 minutes, right? That almost sounds like too big of a switch to be believable, but it literally can do that kind of a shift. So that kind of a promise. Now you can start to see, oh, now this opens up so much more opportunity for me to spend my time actually writing copy, creating the thing that I want to do, coming up with better ideas, right? Sam Horn: I love what you’re doing. In fact, you’re already coming up with your three questions. So, did you know the average copywriter… we’re not going to say average copywriter, right? It’s in most copywriters, whatever. Most copywriters spend a minimum of 20 plus hours researching their project, their campaign, or something, right? That, Oh, wow. And now we’re going to go another. Did you know we’re not going to duplicate that? So what is something else that gets my eyebrows up?  Rob Marsh: So another idea that might be interesting is the importance of the headline. So I think David Ogilvy is famous for saying that 80% of an ad’s punch or power comes from the headline, but most copywriters literally spend no time or only write one headline, right? So there’s a question that I would probably build around that idea where there’s not enough effort going into this one singularly important part of an ad sales letter, email, whatever.  Sam Horn: That’s excellent, because, see, it’s like pearls on a necklace, right? It doesn’t just say the same thing a different way. It jumps to a whole new aspect, a whole new ROI win of this, right? So for you to say something like, do you know we’re just playing but do you know the majority of copywriters spend less than 60 seconds on their headline, when that can determine whether or not something gets read. I’m getting too long here, but we need to give that teeth, right, right? When that is the most important part of their campaign, or something like that, right? So, how would you craft that sentence with the metric, but the consequence of it, yeah. I mean, this is the kind of thing that should take us hours to come up with. But, you know, you’re not putting your time on the most important task is really the idea that I want to get to. Okay, so since this is our first chance to get them, we’re going to say 20 hours, you know, research, you know. Did you know that most copywriters spend seconds on their headline not understanding it can undermine everything they’re trying to do, or something like that, right? We need that consequence now. What’s the third?  Rob Marsh: I’m not sure exactly how to word this, but I would probably be asking a question around the fact that this is an artificial intelligence tool, and most of us don’t know how to use them to get the results that make them effective or make them usable. So you know, maybe the question is, did you know that you could use an AI tool to do all of this for you in minutes, or to get the kinds of results that it would take us hours to get before something along those lines? And again, I know I’m being too wordy here, too, but that’s the idea we draft and then we craft, right? So now we’re going to save that for the imagine, right? Because that’s when Imagine if you could do all that in seconds. Imagine if you could get better results. So that’s part of our imagine. We’re going to come back to this and and did you know something about, did you know many copywriters are using AI generators ineffectively and inefficiently, you know, and in a way that actually sabotages their success, or something like that, right?  Okay, so see, boom, boom, boom. Now, imagine if there were a way for you to use AI effectively and efficiently to to reduce your research from 20 hours to and it’s nice to do 20 hours, 20 minutes, you know, or 10 minutes. So it’s alliterative, you know? And the next one was headline, and could generate commercially viable, clever headlines that would never have occurred to you otherwise, or something like that, right?  Imagine it. That’s what we’re going to cover in our 60 minute workshop, or that’s what I’m going to cover in this Youtube series or something. And look at all that you’ve done in 60 seconds. Rob Marsh: I really like this process because, like you were saying at the very beginning, everything fades into the background. And it only takes an idea to show up one time before it’s copied endlessly. And so thinking about this stuff over and over, every time you relaunch a product, every time that you show up on stage, it’s almost like you need to go through this process again just to make sure that it still stands out, that it still catches attention. And that it’s not becoming the cliche. All cliches were original once, but by the fifth or sixth or 100th time we see it, now it’s the cliche and and we ignore it again. Sam Horn: I tell you, we cannot rest on our creative laurels. The good news is it’s an intellectual Disneyland, you know, Katherine Graham said to do what you love and feel that it matters. How could anything be more fun? So see, I take my notebook everywhere with me. I mean, I’m out on a stream trail walk. I got my notebook, you know. And so when, when I hear something that gets my eyebrows up, I write it down, or I record it to capture it in the moment, because they don’t call them fleeting thoughts for nothing. And if we do that, this becomes a skill. And I tell you, for me, it’s permanent employment, because AI cannot do this in and cannot do it in the moment in a unique way that at least give someone a competitive edge. I’ll give you an example. I’m speaking at conscious capitalism, and when I do a book signing, normally, you know, people stand in line and they clutch their book and they don’t talk to each other. And if you talk to a couple people, they leave because it’s going to be too long before we get to them, right? So I always form a little community, and we brainstorm, strategize people’s projects. So here’s a man, it gives me my question is always so you know, what are you excited about achieving this year? So it makes it topical and timely. And so this man said, Well, I’d like to do more paid speaking. I said, Great. I said, What’s your topic? He said, leadership. I said, Uh oh, right. Common topic, 1000s and 1000s. So if he wants to get more paid, speaking on leadership, even if he has a great platform of credentials, there’s still 1000s of people out there. So juxtaposing over on the right is his topic leadership.  Now I ask another question I ask all my clients. It’s like, what do you do when you’re not working, right? Because if you’re a pilot, if you play pickleball, you know, if you ride horses, if you coach or whatever, he said, I host salons where we do Shakespeare sonnets. Well, that’s interesting, right? Yeah, that’s different, right? So there’s potential there, right? So the way my brain works, because I have integrated all of these processes. So it’s just how I roll these days, I’m thinking, okay, a Shakespeare leadership, Shakespeare leadership. Oh, and I Einstein laugh. I laughed out loud. I mocked up a book cover, and I said, okay, I’m going to show you in the group something, and if you like it, go to GoDaddy right now, because if no one has taken this, you just got yourself a million dollar brand name book title and presentation title, all in seconds. I said, ready, and I showed it to him, and it said to lead or not to lead. Guess what? Rob, no one had that in all these years of speaking and writing about leadership, no one had ever said to lead or not to lead. So the next day, he came back grinning from ear to ear. Got that for 12 bucks, and it’s because we’re using these processes, and it’s not hard work, Rob. It is great fun. Rob Marsh: We could talk about these techniques all day long. It’d probably be better for people just to buy the book and, you know, to start going through them. But you also started talking about how you’ve made this your career. Can we talk a bit about this with I mean, we’re just talking about this AI workshop. A lot of people are threatened by AI. I’m tempted to think that AI can help with some of this kind of thinking. But what are your thoughts on this, and what we as creatives bring to the table? You know, if I wanted to be the next Sam Horn, you obviously are filling that role, so there’s no need for another Sam Horn. But if Rob Marsh wanted to do some things like what Sam Horn does, helping people come up with ideas, helping people stand out with their messaging, and really tightening it up like that. What do we need to bring to the table so that we’re not replaced by the content bots? Sam Horn: Okay, so in a moment, we’ll talk about AI, because I understand you’re using it and almost as part, oh, is using it ethically, right? Using it efficiently. So we’ll get to that in a second. However, the answer to the first question is to Rod Laver your career. Now, what are you a tennis player? By any chance, Rob: Rob Marsh: I wouldn’t call myself a tennis player. I’ve played tennis. I’ve played pickleball. I enjoy tennis. Let’s say that… I wouldn’t call myself a player.  Sam Horn: Well, you’re a pickleball player, and Rod Laver, as you may know, won the Grand Slam of Tennis twice. So the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon, and the US Open, I had the previledge of working with Rod Laver on Hilton Head Island. So we would put on tennis camps, national tennis camps, and he would be showing someone how to volley, and he would go, it’s like this. People go, flop, flop, flop, flop. He looked at him. Was like, No, it’s like this. You know, crisp, crisp, crisp, crisp, flop, flop. See, it had been so long, Rob since he had gone back and even thought about the mechanics, right? He just thinks, no, you know what? He’s playing tennis, chess. Okay, they’re over there. I’m going to pull him out of position. I’m going to drop it.  Rob Marsh: You know all that curser of knowledge we forget what it’s like to be new at something.  Sam Horn: We’re going to remember it because there in lies the key to our organic creativity. So I’m going to ask people when they get an idea, when they come up with a Winning Campaign, when they get a yes to a project that they take a few minutes to reverse engineer it. All right, how did I turn that skeptic into a believer? How did I get that amount of money for that contract right? Because if we start staying alert to our process, and if we codify it so it is replicable, we make shortcuts available to others. So what can AI not do? Ai can’t be in your life where, where you’re reading something and the passage lights you up, and your mind riffs off it and comes up with something in the moment that’s relevant to your audience or your campaign or whatever. And you write about that because you’re first to market with it now, unfortunately, people run with it these days, you know, but you were there first, and at least you can leverage the originality and the creativity and get known for doing it for your clients, because you have developed that muscle and that ability and that way of having your own organic creativity and just feeding it into a machine and letting them do it for us and have cognitive creative decline.  Rob Marsh: Yeah, it makes total sense. Obviously, we have to have the experiences that we bring to the table in order for this to even have a starting point, right? Sam Horn: It’s so funny you say that because, okay, 60 second story, but it really does have a point. So I just finished a very intensive consult and my son, Andrew called, and he sensed something in my voice, and he said, what’s up, mom? I said, Andrew, I’m so exhausted I don’t know how I’m gonna get on that plane tonight. I’ve got to fly back to DC, back to San Francisco in a couple days for a keynote. I don’t know how I’m going to do it. Well, thank heaven for Andrew, because he said, Mom, there’s something about you I don’t understand. You have your own business. You can do anything you want, and you’re not taking advantage of it. Well, out of the mouths of 20 somethings. I gave away 90% of what I owned, and I took my business on the road for a year by the water, and I interviewed people, and it ended up being, you know, some days, not a day in the wake book. Here’s the thing. The phrase right now is like, Oh, I couldn’t take time off work, right? Right? Not taking time off work. It’s taking time on life, right? See, I went places. I swam in Walden Pond, you know? I swam with Zach the dolphin. I sailed the Chesapeake Bay, right? All these new experiences. I’m riffing off them. I’m interviewing people. Are you happy? If so? Why? If not, why not? I’m codifying their answers so I have anecdotal evidence. Wrote a book: Someday is Not a Day of the Week, speaking on that. Now, before I went, I announced that at the National Press Club, and three people came up to me afterwards, and one said, Sam, are you sick? Because, see, she was assuming I had to be in my deathbed to do something like, right? This is that bucket list trip that. I’m on a mission to change people’s mind. The next one said, Sam, is this a midlife crisis? I said, No, it’s midlife clarity and and the third was a big investor from Tiger 21 and he said, Sam, you better not let this story get out, because if your clients and meeting planners find out you’re off the grid, you’re going to be out of sight, out of mind, and you’re going to come back and your business won’t be waiting for you when you’re ready for it. So I had kind of a crisis of conscience.  I am risking everything I built for the last 30 years. Was this frivolous, right? And what I discovered is, what you and I are talking about is when we intentionally immerse ourselves in an intriguing life, we meet people where we haven’t met before. You know, we are going places we haven’t been before, and we marry all over it. We are coming up with creative observations inside. Epiphanies, and we become known for that, and once again, it’s H, I, human intelligence, and not AI, Rob Marsh: Once you have that baseline, though, that’s what AI actually can help magnify, because now AI can help us make some of those connections, because it’s so good at looking at massive data, and our brains are really good at focusing on somewhere between one and seven things at a time or whatever. And so when you can marry a wide range of experiences like that and start to use AI to find some of those connections, and then that spurs even more H, I human intelligence as we’re thinking about it. That’s where the power of that tool works with us to produce great work. Sam Horn: I guess you can tell I’m a little bit on a mission around this. And here’s why, you know, I’ve got a pretty good community on LinkedIn. And I would say 95% of the content on LinkedIn these days is AI generated, yeah, and you know that that lib Jen and made a took millions of books without permission, without attribution and without compensation. They took nine of my books, they just fed it into AI. Thought leaders that I really used to respect are using regurgitated content that does not belong to them, it’s on the backs of other people’s proprietary AI that was not compensated, no respect to copyright law. So you and I both agree that AI can be an efficient tool when used ethically and before we relegate our original thinking to a machine that we become reliant upon so we cannot do it ourselves. You and I are talking about longevity and about the ethics of our trade, and furthermore, the intellectual Disneyland of getting good at this, because it is our sustainability, right? If we rely too much on AI, we are one of many if, if we really want to be doing this five years from now, 10 years from now, and people cannot compete with us because they’ve lost the ability to do this, then, then we are doing it, I believe, for all the right reasons. And I’m a business woman. So I’m not just talking about doing this ethically altruistically, you know. I’m talking about with my business head on and with my individual head on, that we make a commitment. You know, we talk about Rod Laver. Rod Laver spent 1000s of hours working on his fitness and on his strokes, etc. The equivalent in our industry of copywriting, creative content, etc, is that we continue to put in our 10,000 hours. We don’t abdicate it or delegate it. Rob Marsh: I don’t think that the US Open would be the same if we had two robots hitting tennis balls to each other. It might be kind of fun to watch for a minute or two, but without the back stories, without the effort, you know, without all of the things that go into making those players human, we lose a lot. Well, we only have a few more minutes. I’m actually really curious about your writing process. So as I’ve gone through a couple of your books, it feels to me like you’re a bit of a collector. You’re always collecting quotes and ideas, and then somehow they all come together as a book. When you’re ready to sit down and write, we just talk about how you approach a project like that. How do the ideas for books occur to you? And then how do you go about making them happen? Sam Horn: Okay, well, two, there are two questions there. One about, how do books occur to me, etc? We’ve all heard pick a lane, right? We understand that, you know, the riches are in the niches, etc. And I understand that I just have elected not to do that, you know what? Because I, quite frankly, I like being more of a renaissance creative, you know. So I write about Tongue Fu. I write about what’s holding you back, about ConZentrate, about Take the bully by the Horns, about Talking on Eggshells, Pop, etc. Because I have elected to move on and explore topics that I think are tangibly useful to us as human beings. When I write about them, they’re not saturated. I don’t read other people’s books on my topic, because I don’t want to wake up at three 3am with a great idea. It’s not my idea, it’s Stephen Covey’s idea, right? So this is organic process. So once I come up with the topic that’s congruent, it lights me up. I feel it’s not saturated. I think that it will add value. Then I Mary Oliver my life. I really like street interviews Rob. I talk with almost all my Uber drivers, and I talk with people and I. Ask questions. In fact, I have a 10 W quiz when I’m going to do a deep dive into a topic, you know? So, let me ask. Let me do it for you again. What are you working on a book right now? A new book?  Rob Marsh: Oh, I’ve always got like, five or six ideas for books. So, yeah. So, of course, I’m always working on something. Sam Horn: Okay, so like, what’s one of the working titles or topics of your books?  Rob Marsh: Let me give you the title that I’ve recently outlined. So I want to help writers build their authority, because again, it’s really hard. You know, when there’s a million copywriters out there, it’s hard to not just capture attention, but to get people to trust you if you don’t have some kind of authority attached to your name or business. Sam Horn: Excellent. Okay, so this is our topic—trusted writer authority, right? Developing ways, you know, a 10 week, way 10 step seven step, way whatever, to establishing your trusted writer authority. All right. So now, if we were going to do the 10 W quiz that you do everywhere you go, and you’re thinking, well, this waitress isn’t a writer, oh, but she could have a wonderful insight, right? Sure. So the first question is always, what is the definition of this? Because you could interview 10 people and they’re going to give you 10 different answers for what it means to have trusted writer authority, right? Yeah, for sure, that’s number one. So we have clarity around our terms, and it may be very you have yours however you honor other people’s interpretations of it. So you’re bringing them along from the get go, and you’re asking, right?  All right. Number two is like, so who is a walking, talking role model of this, right? So let’s go to your benchmark. Who do you think is exhibit a shining example of this?  Rob Marsh: Historically, probably the best is David Ogilvy, who is the one copywriter who’s ever lived that was, you know, on nighttime, you know, television shows, pretty much everybody knew who he was, right?  Sam Horn: I love that because, see, you already started to unpack it. He did what I call he jumped the genre, right? He wasn’t just an ad guy. He was his business guy, who’s a visionary. He was a thought leader all that, right? And a very elegant and classy guy too, right?  Okay. So see, you already have in your mind what it took and what your values are. Do you see how one question is like a little war shark test, right? It’s like, okay, I want to jump the genre. I want to be an elegant, classy guy. I want to be a thought leader in my space, right? So do you see one question, who is a benchmark, who’s an exhibit or a poster child of this? Just reveals so much. Now, question three, who is not a role model of this? Who is the opposite of that? Now, who might that be? Rob Marsh: So this is a starving writer who’s operating at a content farm. They’re working for pennies per word, or even less. They’re struggling because people don’t know who they are. So even if they do reach out to prospects, they get ignored because they’re not familiar. Sam Horn: See, do you see you hear your copywriting itself, don’t you? Rob Marsh: For sure? Yeah. I’ve thought quite a bit about, you know what, what needs to go into the book. So some of those answers are maybe coming a little easier for me than somebody who might be thinking through a different idea at the moment. But I totally get how this process leads you to an outcome. Sam Horn: And look, content and context, right? Because we’re not just coming up with benchmarks, who you can reference throughout the book with attribution. You know, by honoring them, you are context. You’re once again, coming up with values of all the people you could have picked. Here’s the criteria, our ingredients that are meaningful to you. Now we go to who, you know, who does not do this. Now the copy is, once again, we go back to the you know, are you working at a content farm? Are you getting pennies or whatever? Do you struggle to make your copy, you know, land, a deal or something? So see, you’re now.  The next question is, when is a time you had trusted writer authority? Put me in the scene where you think, yep, that’s what that looks like. Rob Marsh: So me specifically as the author of this book? Sam Horn: Yeah, because we’re working on your book.  Rob Marsh: Okay, so that probably happened in 2018 when we launched our first ever event, invited about 18 other well known copywriters tto come join us on stage. And because they’re there, several of whom were A-list Copywriters, literally making hundreds of 1000s of dollars, maybe even more. And because we’re there on the stage with them, everybody in the audience is saying, You, we recognize. You are part of this illustrious group, Sam Horn: As the curator of the group, the organizer of the group, right? So it’s definitely, as you said, it’s not just status that you’re one of them. You’re actually the convener of them, right, right? That goes in your book, too, right? Because if you’re talking about, you know, establishing trusted writer authority. And you reference an event where you convened the authorities, boom. That’s instant authority for you, right, as a thought leader in the space, someone respected, etc.  Now the next question, when is a time you didn’t… Rob Marsh: I mean, there are a lot a lot of examples of that, but when I have felt frustrated, you know, reaching out cold pitching clients or cold pitching prospects, not clients, because they weren’t becoming clients, you know, worried that I was, you know, going to run out of money before. You know, somebody said, yes, those kinds of experiences, and yeah, there that’s happened, you know, at various times in my career. Sam Horn: And now see, as you know, for writing to resonate these days, we need to be relatable, and that often means being vulnerable, right? It’s not just all our success stories. And then I did this, and then I did this, it’s like, well, in that time I didn’t get that, that contract I was counting on that time I walked out of the room and I knew the answer was going to be no, right, right? So we can share honestly the times that it did not work out, and then we reverse engineer it. And I realized, you know what, I did most of the talking. And my mom used to say, whoever does the most talking has the most fun, you know. And my goal in a pitch is that they do 70% of the talking, you know, and I do 30% and I did something like that, right? Okay, so it pulls out a real life story. We’re vulnerable and relatable and honest and true and accessible, not just the expert. We’re accessible. People now feel okay, right? If you’re going to go first, then I’m going to do it too. You just gave me permission to be honest, instead of perfect, right? Yeah. So the next question is, Why is it important for us to be a trusted writer authority? Rob Marsh: Well, it leads to better clients, higher paying projects and more opportunities so that we can have, you know, the things that we want in our lives, whatever that looks like. You know, more time with family, more time to travel, you know, what? Again, to reach our goals. Sam Horn: So I’m sure that you codify that, right? So here are all the benefits. Here are all the advantages here, all the bottom line. ROI, and now, guess what the next question is, Rob Marsh: I’m not sure I can. Is it going to be something around you know, how do you get there? Sam Horn: Almost. It’s… why don’t we do that? If we know it’s a career maker, if we know it’s what people want, if we know that it’s important, then why aren’t we doing it? So now just speculate. If people go, I know it’s important, but I can’t do it because I don’t have an MBA. I can’t do it because… whatever. What would be three or four reasons that are the barriers to entry? Rob Marsh: Number one is always going to be confidence. You know, I don’t believe that I can do it. I’ve never done this before. Another one would be, I don’t have the connections or the network that successful people do. A third one might be, I’m not sure that I know enough about the thing that I’m doing. So because I’m talking to copywriters, content writers, they’re thinking I’m not sure that I know enough about copywriting to be able to lead and say I can get this done for my clients. And closely related to that, even if they have done it, maybe they don’t have, they don’t feel like they have the proof that they can deliver on the promises that they want to make.  Sam Horn: So see, the book is writing itself, again, isn’t it? You can see a chapter, once again, you codify that, because it’s like you become a docent of your body of work. You say, Well, in my 20 years of working with copywriters from all around the world, from countries like this and this and this, from, you know, multi million dollar copywriters to people just getting started. Do you know what I’ve discovered? Right question, two way conversation reveal right is that here are the seven most frequently given reasons that are barriers to entry, that people think it’s not an option for them, and when you codify it, if you don’t name it, you don’t own it, right? So if this is just in paragraph form, people do not perceive its proprietary and they will either skim or scan it, or they’ll run with it. If it’s your name. The seven reasons why people don’t whatever. At least scrupulous people will honor your name that this is codified proprietary IP, and they will reference you now, and it’s positioning you as an expert, all because you’re reporting back on your discoveries and your anecdotal data, right? Yeah, all right, then you know, when I bet you go to conferences and like, the first question is, so what’s a challenge you’re facing? And it’s like there’s something called the evolution of intimacy, folks. And if the first question is to tell us what’s wrong with our life, that’s like a breach. To me. It’s a breach of trust. It’s a one down. I just put you down. My first question to you was, what’s wrong with you in your life? Rob Marsh: Nobody likes starting with a failure. Sam Horn: Exactly. So see now, even in this quiz, we honor that human understanding of honoring people, and we say, so what’s your best pest? Best piece of advice, right? What have you learned if you’re going to give advice to someone starting out in this career, you know, even if you’ve only been in it six months, what is something you’ve learned that’s a non negotiable? So let’s honor their intelligence and their expertise, right? And give them an opportunity to contribute your thoughts. I can see you. You’re about to say something. Rob Marsh:  So this isn’t necessarily my thinking in the book, but I’m getting this from potential readers and then reflecting that book back inside the book, correct? Sam Horn: You just said something so important, because, once again, I don’t read other people’s books, right? So when I wrote Tongue Fu, I didn’t read all the books under the sun. On conflict resolution. I interviewed moms, I interviewed lawyers. I was doing so many public workshops at that point. So when people would come in, well, I agree with you, but you don’t work for my boss, you know? And then they tell a story, and then we talk about how we could turn around. And many times they would get back in touch with the success or with what happened, with their permission, I use those stories so you are right. This isn’t a way to generate original content through interviews, where we’re asking people for their best practices, their interpretations. And guess what? Now you look at your book, it’s not a one voice book. It’s not one person sharing your recommendations or success stories. It’s like, you know, it’s a single mom of three kids, you know, it’s the multi million dollar CEO. And it makes the book more relatable, real and one of a kind, because it’s not a one voice book, yeah, yeah. Rob Marsh: It makes a ton of sense. So is that all of the questions? Sam Horn: Number number nine and number 10, what do you know that I’m going to do a workshop on this, or I’m writing a book? What is something we could discuss in this book that would really be worthwhile, right? Yeah, and Rob you and I’ve been doing this for a while, it makes my day when someone says, Well, you know what I’m dealing with. Or, you know this happened? Yes, someone was teasing me, and they said, can’t you take a joke? And I It felt so wrong, and I just didn’t know what to say, you know. So ask people, What could we cover in this book that would make it, you know, worthwhile reading? And they will, they’ll give you the answers to the test, won’t they? Right? And now, once again, you’re monitoring your answers. Maybe all the answers are about money, and maybe you’re going to talk more about content or business stuff, but you realize, seems what everyone cares about is money, so I better stack the deck and put that first right. Because if I think I’m going to talk about money in the last third of the book after this. No, no, they just told you that’s not their priority. They won’t wait for the last third of the book. Rob Marsh: And the final question. Sam Horn: Final question is, Who do you recommend I interview on this? Okay? And it’s so wonderful, Rob. Because, you know, people say, Well, John Mackey, who is founder of Whole Foods, gave the cover endorsement of my Talking on Eggshells book. So I had interviewed Mickey Agarwal for the book, and I said, Who else do you think would be a great interview? And she said, Well, John Mackey would be great. Well, I interviewed John and he ended up giving the cover endorsement for the book. So, boy, is that a payoff.  Rob Marsh: That’s fantastic. You. I mean, you’ve given me two workshops in this one interview. Amazingly helpful for me, but also just seeing inside your process and the way you think, the way your brain works. I know I’ve mentioned the book Pop a couple of times. I honestly think that copywriters, content writers, this should be on the shelf, because when you are looking for ideas and how to stand out, just the tools that you give in the book, we’re getting my mind thinking I you know, as I’m reading through the book, I’m hopping online, looking for cliches, for ideas that. I work with things that I’m thinking about, and so we’ll, like I said, We’ll link to it in the show notes. But if somebody wants to follow you, Sam, get you know, in touch with you, or even come and hear you speak someplace, where should they go so that they can get inside your world? Sam Horn: Well, first, I really hope that we connect on LinkedIn, that’s my life. It’s my lab and and often, at least once or twice a week, I’m on LinkedIn sharing something that just happened in a riff off of it, or a technique. One of my clients just got back in touch and said, Wow, look at how this works. So check me out on LinkedIn. Sam Horn, Intrigue Agency on LinkedIn, and then on my website. You know, we’ve got our clarity weekends where people come and do a deep dive into what they want clarity about, or my coaching or and I do love to speak for groups. So if they’re saying, Wow, we should have her come in and speak to our group, reach out to me. It’d be wonderful to hear from you. Rob Marsh: Thanks so much, Sam for just sharing so much of your knowledge and your ideas. And I’m really looking forward to sharing this with our audience. Sam Horn: Thank it’s a joy. Kudos to you for the work you do. Rob Marsh: Thanks to Sam horn for walking through several of the techniques that she talks about in her book pop. I have links to her book in the show notes, and highly recommend you pick up a copy if you want to get better at attracting and keeping attention. I’m especially grateful that she took real ideas and worked through them a bit. We talk a lot about ideas on this show, but actually working through them live shows a different level of application and helps you, the listeners, see how to apply the insights that she shared on the show. Again, Sam’s book does a lot of this and is worth putting on your shelf. When it comes to getting attention, there are a couple of workshops inside the copywriter underground on creating hooks and writing great leads that will help you grab attention so you can move your prospects from where they are to where they need to be in order to buy the products and services that you write about. You can find those workshops and playbooks at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. Be sure to check out the links in the show notes, get Sam’s book and connect with her online.

What’s the best way to learn copywriting? Could it be hand-writing sales pages and other great copy from expert copywriters like Mel Martin and Gary Bencivenga? My guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Derek Johanson, the writer who created CopyHour, a program designed to help you learn to write by hand-copying great copy. We also talked about getting affiliates, mentoring, and a lot more. If you want to improve your copywriting skills, be sure to listen to this episode (and click here to learn about the CopyHour program). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: The CopyHour Course Gary Bencivenga’s Olive Oil Sales Page The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh: What’s the best way to learn copywriting? Would it surprise you that handwriting great copy is possibly the most successful technique? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. There must be something like a thousand different courses for copywriters to learn how to write copy. And probably another thousand more that talk about content—as if it’s a separate skill set. And there are probably an additional thousand more free videos in places like YouTube that promise to teach you the skills you need to succeed as a copywriter. With that many choices out there, you would think the world would be crammed full of phenomenally skilled copywriters, but it’s not. This should tell us that not all courses or workshops that promise to teach writers how to write copy and content actually work. So what does work? Is there a course out there that many copywriters talk about or recommend when it comes to writing engaging sales or conversion copy? And it turns out there is. One course recommended by people like Dan Ferrari, Chris Orzechowski, Elise Savaki, and hundreds of others is called CopyHour. Unlike many other courses, CopyHour focuses on handwriting great copy. Does that really work? I asked Derek Johanson, the writer who created CopyHour to be my guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to answer questions like… why does hand-writing teach copy structure and pacing where other methods don’t appear to have the same level of success?  We talked about the genesis and evolution of the CopyHour program and what it includes… things like writing great offers, writing headlines and bullets, and how Derek has improved the course over time. Now I want to be upfront about something… I came to this interview as a bit of a skeptic when it comes to hand-writing copy. I’m all in on studying good examples of emails, sales pages, and other good copy. In fact, I have a swipe file with more than 500 different sales pages that I’ve saved to study… those swipes are part of The Copywriter Underground… But handwriting? I wasn’t so sure… I think Derek may have changed my mind. And if you’re a skeptic on this topic, you may want to hear what he says about the science of handwriting and learning. If you’re convinced by the end of this episode that you want to know more, you can go to thecopywriterclub.com/copyhour to find out more about Derek’s course. It’s open for new members the week this episode goes live, so check it out today… thecopywriterclub.com/copyhour Before we get to my interview with Derek, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard me talk about how we’ve recently rebuilt The Underground dashboard to make finding the ideas and insights you need easier. But as I started recreating this new dashboard, it occurred to me that no one has time to watch more than 70 different workshops—even for those workshops that help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. So I’ve taken more than 30 of those workshops on finding clients, having sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn, and dozens of others… and I’ve created playbooks that break down the ideas in the workshops into easy-to-follow steps. Each playbook is 3-5 pages long. You can read through one and implement the ideas in minutes. And then if you want more detail, you can watch the accompanying workshop. Each playbook even includes a checklist so you don’t miss any steps and can ensure you get things done. I’m working on completing playbooks for all of the workshops and training inside The Underground. They should all be ready by the end of April. You can get the first 30 or so right now by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Derek Johanson… Derek, welcome to the podcast. I’m thrilled to have you here. Before we hit record, I was mentioning you know, you’re you’re talked about by everyone. Your program is relatively well known. But before we get into all of that, I’m curious: how did you get from the beginning of your career to where you are now, where you are literally on the lips of so many copywriters around the world? Derek Johanson: Wow. Do you want the long version or the short version? Rob Marsh: We’ve got an hour. So you tell me how much time we should use up in your story. Derek Johanson:  Yeah. So, I mean, I can take you back to the very, beginning, oh, man. I got started online about 1516, years ago. And when I first got started, I was bouncing all around to different countries. Actually, I graduated from UCLA and kind of got out of school and was working in the music industry. I wanted to, I wanted to be in the music industry. I wanted to play music actually. But I’m going to tell you the long version, because I don’t really know how to short version, yeah, we might need more than an app. I don’t know. So I wanted to work in the music industry. And I got out of college, and. And immediately got a job and started working for a small publishing company. And really had one of those moments where, I read The 4 Hour Work Week, and my brain just got destroyed by the possibility of traveling the world and working. I had traveled quite a bit before that, and I was like, Oh, my God, if I can make that work, I can do this, or if I can make that work, that I’ll be set right. If I can make $1,000 a month and live in Thailand, I will be golden. So that book destroyed my life. And then from there, I worked for about eight or nine months at that company, and I started looking around and looking at my bosses, who were all in their 50s, and nobody seemed happy. And I was like, You know what, this is where I’m headed if I don’t get out of here. So I saved up all my money or saved as much money as I possibly could. I shared a bedroom with my best friend at the time, and I actually had a mattress that whenever our landlord would come over, I had to shove into the closet because we weren’t supposed to have that many people in the house or in the room. So basically, I just saved every dollar I could and I quit, then started traveling. I went down through Panama, Costa Rica, Colombia, and Argentina, and all along the way, I was working with one of my other friends. We were just trying to figure out how we’re gonna make money as we’re going. So my first foray was into affiliate marketing. So I set up some blogs. I had a blog on acne. I had a blog on dating—just setting up kind of weird, random little websites, and started to actually make some money with those. And what I really didn’t understand at the time is what I was doing, and when I say a little bit of money, I really mean a little bit of money. What I didn’t realize was that I was actually doing copywriting. And so fast forward a little bit. I came back to the States, and I met a guy in Thailand that I became fast friends with. He had a publishing company or wanted to start a publishing company. We called it dangerous publishing. We were trying to find “how-to” experts in various fields. We had an acting coach. We had a yoga instructor, like he was like a yoga master for yoga instructors, and a few other small clients, some in kind of on the business side, biz, op stuff. And so I traveled to Philadelphia, where he lived at the time. After we met in Thailand, he came back to where he was from, which was Philly. We started working together, building this publishing company. And then about, let’s see. About six months into that, we get a knock on our loft. We had this loft in Philadelphia, and my wife is in the other room right now, and she’s laughing because she was there. And we get a knock on our door in the morning. On a Saturday morning, I hear and then I hear keys jiggling, and our landlord runs into the house—I have problem with landlords. I’m just realizing, as I’m telling you the story—he runs into the apartment and he’s like, “David, where’s my money?” And at that time, I had no idea that there were any problems at all, but it turns out my then-business partner was funneling money from our business bank account into his own personal account to pay down a DUI. I’m from San Diego. I live in San Diego. I was on the East Coast in Philly, 3000 miles from home, and I was still young at the time, like 24-25 in that range, and decided that this was not somebody that I wanted to be in business with. And so from there, I left that business, I basically dumped all of the money that I had into that business, and then I took a couple of clients that I had or that we had from that business. I started working with them and trying to help them grow and doing all of the online business activities and marketing activities that we’v all heard of. So setting up a blog. I was running Facebook ads, building landing pages, and writing sales pages. I wrote some VSLs and we actually started publishing some books on Kindle with a few different people. And so I realized that I was copywriting, right? Everything that I was doing, I hadn’t really figured that out. Up until that point. I had read some stuff by Carlton. I knew that. I knew what copywriting was, but I didn’t realize that everything I was doing centered around writing and writing copy. So I did that for about six or seven months. I considered it like marketing consulting, and I was working with an actor. Again, he had a business of acting course, and so I was helping him grow. I started to see the amount of money that we were making, I was making for him, and basically, I was running everything for him and not making a ton of money with it. So I was like, Huh, what could I do? How could I start something on my own? And I knew that I really liked writing. I’d always loved writing, and I really enjoyed the copywriting that I was doing for that client. So what I did was I posted in this forum. It’s called the Dynamite Circlefor entrepreneurs that are trying to travel. And, yeah, sorry, Rob, this is the long, long version. Rob Marsh: It’s all good. I’m there with you. I remember Dynamite Circle. It was a really big thing not too long ago. Derek Johanson: Yeah, it’s still going. And so I posted in that forum. You know, I was in the kind of in the copywriting subgroup in there, responding to people talking about things. I was talking about, the Facebook ads that I was running and for that client. And so I eventually stumbled on Gary Halbert, the hands-on experience newsletter. So it was like that hit, you know, Gary Halbert newsletter, and then the title of it was hands-on experience. And in it, he talked about hand copying and handwriting. And so I thought, “Oh, that’s really interesting.” And I started to do it, the handwriting, and I really enjoyed doing it. It just kind of seemed to fire something new in my brain. I always felt very motivated and ready to write after I did it. But the problem that I had is that I just kind of fell off from doing it. Certain ads that he recommended that we hand copy. Had no idea, like, why it was working. What was the point of all of this? Like the one about the expedition, I can’t even, I don’t know why. I can’t remember because I didn’t really end up hand-copying it all that much because I hated it. So there were little things like that happening. I started to want to hand copy more and realized that was kind of hard. And I was in this copywriting group, and I just kind of pitched a few of the people in it. John McIntyre was in that first group, and I just pitched some people. I said, “Hey, send me $20, and I’ll send you the ads, and I’m going to deliver it via email. I’ll just send it every single day. I’ll send you the ads to hand copy. I’ll set up a little forum, and we can talk about what we liked about the ads, why we thought they converted, and what made them good, right?” And so I set that up like, kind of woke up one morning and just or woke up like very early morning, woke up at like 3 am and was like, I’m gonna write a sales letter for this. And wrote a sales letter for the just basically like an accountability hand copying program, right? And the first time I put that out in the Dynamite Circle, I got 20 people, 20 people paid me 20 bucks. And I was like, maybe there’s something here. And so that first group went through, and everyone was just jazzed, really excited about it. I wasn’t teaching anything in those first, first few versions of copy hour. I was just literally sending ads to people. And everyone seemed to be getting great results. Just, like, wow, this is really cool. Like, I learned XYZ. John McIntyre—I don’t want to exactly put words in his mouth—but I think, literally, that inspired him to start his entire business going through and he became the autoresponder guy before auto responders were really even a thing. And so from there, I kept my client work, but kept running different versions of CopyHour and just kind of honing and refining and making it better. Eventually, I got to the point where I decided I was just going to start training a little bit, adding in some extra exercises and structure to the entire program, like how to do leads. How do you write a headline? How do you write a lead? What do you think about what comes after the lead, which is the sales argument? How do you write the offer? How do you do bullets? And kind of added in my own flair to it based on personal experiences that I was having. And then from there, I just started adding in extra programs to CopyHour and in 2017 Copy Hour became a full, complete program. Then I quit my client work in 2017. So to get back to the very first question that you asked me is, why are people still talking about it? Handwriting works, number one. And number two, I’ve been working on it for 12 or 13 years now. And when you can iterate on a product for 12 or 13 years—which some people have told me, is a mistake, to keep updating and making things better or making things different—I’ve just continued to do that for 12 years. I’ve actually talked to a couple of different business coaches who said, stop editing this product, stop and focus on new stuff. And I’m like, this could be better. I can do this better. I can teach this better. And I think that’s probably why, 15 years later, people are still talking about it. Rob Marsh: I want to get into what CopyHour is, but before we do that, I think I saw you mentioned that in your launches last year, you know both, both of your launches for this program were over six figures, which I think in the marketing space right now is a little bit of an anomaly. There are definitely programs out there that are doing well, but I’ve heard so many people talk for the last almost, almost two years now that, you know, course, sales are really hard, you know, and launch numbers are down, and you know, all this stuff’s going on, and yet you still had success, aside from the content of the program. What do you attribute that to? Why are you still able to have these big monster launches when other people are struggling? Derek Johanson: Okay. That’s a really good question. There are a couple of different things, I think. First of all, let me start with the sales page, right? So after all of this time, I’ve built up some pretty incredible social proof, or testimonials, or whatever you want to call it, where I have various people who have gone through the program, who have gone on to sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of products and not everyone is like CopyHour is the thing that made me sell $200 million, but CopyHour seems to be this launching point, like that launch pad, the starting point for a lot of different copywriters, a lot of different people. So Sam Parr, who sold the hustle for $30 million, ended up creating his own version of CopyHour and tried to call part of it CopyHour, or he said that he called it his CopyHour. But anyway, Sam Parr tried to rip off CopyHour. And it’s out there if you want to look for it. But he went through CopyHour, then sold the hustle for $30 million. here’s Dan Ferrari who went through and he sold, I don’t even know how much he sold… Rob Marsh: Dan is famous for being Motley Fool’s big copywriter and has sold probably hundreds of millions of of dollars worth of products at this point. Derek Johanson: Yeah, for sure. And then also, you know, Ian Stanley went through it. Ning Lee, who I think is probably going to do about a million dollars in per. Personal income this year from his copywriting. So I’ve got some of those big, big testimonials we’ve I’ve been around again for like, 12-13, years, so people kind of hear it. And also, I think that depends on what type of course you’re trying to sell as well. So copywriting seems to be still something that people are interested in. Copywriting courses still, still seem to be something that business owners know about. People are still interested in that topic, versus maybe some of the other topics that people might be struggling to sell a little bit. And then also, on top of that, the type of traffic that that I get, I get a lot of word of mouth, which I think, obviously, is I’ve been around for 12-13 years. A lot of people who have copywriting courses have gone through CopyHour. So I’ve trained almost up some. I really sound like I’m bragging or something right now, but I’m just answering the question. So I’ve got that. Then there are some bigger affiliates that, when you have a sales page that has amazing testimonials, frankly, they’re amazing. When you have that page and you have a good affiliate who’s willing to push hard and send hard you can, you can sell quite a bit. And so I think that that that played, played a big factor in, in those big launches. I don’t know if there’s much else that I can think of right now that would say that, and then also, just like the way that I email now, after all these years, I think is the right way to email people, and just giving as much value upfront. We can talk about this later, but just giving as much value upfront, I think, is extremely valuable, and I’ve proved that to myself this past year. Rob Marsh: Is there a secret to finding good affiliates? And this is maybe a selfish question. I know a lot of copywriters aren’t really out there looking for affiliates, but obviously, you’re building a relationship with somebody, and so that’s something all copywriters need. But do you do anything special in order to connect with the people who are selling your courses? Derek Johanson: I would sell this to you, Rob, if I could. If I had that one magic secret, I would sell it. And I’ve thought a lot about this, because one of the major parts of my business is getting those initial customers into the door. And I always say this, that’s how I pay for traffic. At this point, you have to pay for traffic in some way, shape, or form. The way that I do it is, I pay affiliates. Then once you have those good customers in the door from the affiliates, then on the back of that, you can promote your own stuff, promote other affiliates, and kind of boost that lifetime value. I’m kind of talking against paid ads right now, but like on top of that, you also get upfront money. You’re typically getting paid to get a new customer, which is something that paid traffic doesn’t allow you. So affiliate traffic can be great. It can also not be so great because of the reasons that you’re mentioning where it’s very hard to find people that are good affiliates. The way I’ve done it is not necessarily super replicable, but I go meet people, that’s the way I’ve done it—meet people in person and so, and you meet kind of networkers in person, if possible. Networking is kind of a terrible word that nobody likes, but it really is the truth. So if there are people going to events that you know of, you should probably be going to those events. If I was just starting out now and I didn’t have a family and two very young kids, I would be traveling… Does Brian from Titans have a mastermind coming up? Rob Marsh: He’s got something coming up in late summer or early fall, and obviously, there are all kinds of content and different events out there. Derek Johanson: I met Ian Stanley in person, basically after he had gone through CopyHour and we became business partners. At one point, Ian actually bought my business, and I bought it back from him, if you we could talk about that if you want to want a little bit. But so, Ian’s an amazing affiliate. And so it’s really just like getting out there, meeting people in person, developing those relationships, and then you got to kind of get a little bit lucky. You can kind of see from how people run affiliate promotions, who’s good at it too. So like, Justin Goff is great at it. He retired. Obviously, people probably know that. And then Ian is fantastic. I know just through Daniel Throssell‘s never promoted me, but I know through other people that he’s extremely good. And so there are people like that. If you see people doing heavy promotions, and they seem to be having success with it, it’s kind of hard to tell sometimes, but that’s kind of the way that you get yourself in the door, and you start to find people. Rob Marsh: So let’s talk a little bit about hand copying copy and CopyHour. I have to admit, for a long time, I’ve sort of pushed back against this idea of hand copying, primarily, probably because it just makes my hand hurt, because my hand aches when I when I try it. And I’ve always thought that more important than actually copying the words is the studying of the sales page that you’re doing. But obviously, there’s some science around handwriting and neural connections. So let’s talk about this. Why do you do it? Why did you do it? Why does it work? And obviously, it is working. You’ve got lots of successes from your program. Derek Johanson: Yeah, so there is some science, and I think it’s probably best to start there, just for people that are, that are listening in, because that is, I mean, it’s much more. There are woo connections. And then there’s the scientific side of it. And the scientific side of it is not, is not directly tied to sales copy itself, but the little science that we do have on handwriting is that it is basically recall. So, handwriting helps with the recall of characters. And recall of language is the science that’s out there. You’re better able to recall what you learn. It’s in a testing situation, and so college students who handwrite their notes tend to do better on tests or do better on tests than people who don’t. So the way that I’ve thought about it, if we’re speaking from more of a scientific standpoint, is that sales copy is a language, right? Like, you know sales good sales copy, when you read it, you know what it looks like, you know what it feels like. You know how it makes you know how it makes you feel, right? And so my thinking is that when you are hand-copying stuff, you are better able to recall that kind of sales language. It almost kind of flows out of you naturally when you’re when you’re sitting down to write. And I think speed is really important when you’re writing copy. When you are trying to write something right, like, so you’re trying to write a sales letter, and you start typing, you’re writing the headline, and then you get where you get to the point where you want to write the lead, or kind of depends—I typically start with the offer. I’ll write out the offer and then I’ll go back from there. But say you’re starting out, you’re writing the headline, and then you get to the part where you want to write the lead, and you’re like, “Hmm, what I want to say for this part?” And then you go and check your notes, and now you’re in another document. And you’re away from the actual writing itself. And what I think happens is it just becomes choppy. If you have to constantly reference your notes when you’re writing, you’re just not going to write as well. You’re going to be kind of scattered. It’s gonna hurt your focus when you’re actually in flow, right? So you kind of lose flow whenever you have to go back and reference the things—reference your notes and reference everything else when you’re writing. So hand copying and this is basically just my opinion, but backed by a little bit of science, is that when you hand copy, you are now able to recall things much more quickly, and that helps keep you in the flow for writing, which is, in my opinion, is extremely important. When you’re actually in the act of writing, you are not only in a state of flow, but you’re also in a state of hyper-confidence in what you’re doing. And if you’re not extremely confident in what you’re going to say, how things are going to flow. It takes you out of that kind of subconscious writing and back into your conscious mind. And we can talk about all of that stuff if you want. I can, you know, I can talk about Zen Buddhism and some of these other things, and some other states of states of flow, that that I think come into it, but that’s generally why I think it works. And, I mean, my sales page goes into it, into it a little bit more if you want to, if people want to dive into that, but that’s, that’s generally what I think, what I think is going on with hand copying. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ll link to the sales page in the show notes so people can check that out, because the copy there is, it’s a great sales page, and you talk about some of that stuff, but it also feels like there’s something else that’s going on in addition to just like the flow or the writing, like there’s some other learning that starts to happen. And maybe this is separate from the handwriting itself. But as you’re constantly looking at a Gary Halbert sales page or a Bencivenga sales page or a Carlton sales page, right? Like you’re going back and you’re seeing their ideas. You’re almost thinking through the copy the way they’re thinking through, at least the final draft of their copy. And so, you know, even if the hand hurting part, it doesn’t work for you like it doesn’t work for me or hasn’t in the past, there’s still something really valuable about going through that mental exercise. Derek Johanson: I agree. So are you? Are you a baseball fan at all? Rob Marsh: A bit. I’ll dip in and out. I live in Salt Lake, so I don’t have a major league team yet, although we’re hoping that we might get the Florida team here. But, yeah, I’ll watch, I’ll watch games from time to time. Derek Johanson: Nice. Okay, so you know, like when somebody is just on a on a hit streak, oh, yeah, or if you even played baseball yourself, when, when you’re locked in, right? What ends up happening is there these, these things called mirror neurons, which basically, like the studies that they’ve done, are on on monkeys. So if, like, a monkey is watching another monkey use a tool, it will the same neurons that are firing in the monkey that’s using the tool will also fire in the monkey that’s just watching, right? So when you’re using a tool, pen, pencil, whatever, what’s what’s happening is, and then again, this is just kind of just getting out there a little bit. What’s what’s happening is that some of those same neurons that were firing for the copywriter themselves might be firing for you as well. Again, I know that’s kind of that’s kind of out there, but that’s something that I’ve thought about. And then back to the baseball reference. Is whenever a hitter gets on a on a streak they talk about, and I experienced this. I played baseball growing up. You get the bat almost becomes just an extension of your hands. Right. The Bat becomes an extension of your arms, and so and what that does is, when you are in the zone, you’re kind of freed up to think about what the pitcher is thinking. And so you’re thinking about what the pitcher is going to throw. The bat is just like this extension of your arms. It’s like it’s nothing in your hands. It’s like you’re literally just throwing your hand out to hit that ball. That’s how easy it is. And so. I think what’s going on when, if, if it’s not memory and recall, if it’s not getting into flow, it’s being able to when you’re hand copying, you’re kind of in that state where you are thinking along the same lines as what the copywriter himself or herself is thinking as they’re going through it, and it makes sense to me, I and like, literally, like, I have to say all of this with like, this is me just going back and trying to explain what the hell is going on with everyone that goes through the program that’s like, this is the best exercise I’ve ever done. And I have no clue why. I don’t know why this is working. Yeah. Rob Marsh: I mean, again, I love studying sales pages, and so, you know, as I’m going through and I’m thinking, Oh, that, that line there, it’s not saying, hey, this proves it, but obviously he’s showing proof, right? And, and I think the more you do that, the more you see that, the more it copy almost becomes like Lego bricks that you kind of fit together and like. So, you know, it’s like, okay, yeah, I get headlines subhead, you know, lead, hook proof, introduce the expert, like all of the elements that are typically there. But as you see different copywriters just doing it in different ways. It’s almost like your toolbox just opens up and suddenly there’s way more possibilities than you ever had on your own. Derek Johanson: for sure. And I think part of it too is like, almost like a synthesis of notes, or like when you people that take notes generally do better remembering things or learning, right? So when you are hand copying, and as long as you’re not doing it, I mean, you can do it mindlessly, but as long as you’re not doing it too mindlessly, I think what’s going on is that you are, you’re slowing down, right? And you’re, you’re better analyzing what it is that you’re you’re doing, and you’re looking at your notes and and, and you’re taking notes essentially on a sales page, whereas if you just try to go through and read it, you can read it, but you can also add in this, this connection here, which is very powerful for stimulating your brain. So oddly, my my uncle, is a like a United States famous, I wouldn’t say, world famous, hand surgeon, which I didn’t know until after I had started copy hour, and he was talking about this connection here between your thumb and your pointer finger stimulates brain activity at a higher level than than not. So like when these two things are together, your brain is at is firing, is activated at a higher level, more neurons are being stimulated when those two things are working together and so that notes slowing down, yada yada, yada. Yeah, it makes sense. Hand copying rocks. Rob Marsh:  Obviously coffee hour includes more than just, hey, copy this. You’ve added some other elements. What else does it include that helps with that learning and growing, you know, beyond just the handwriting. Derek Johanson:  Yeah, so it’s, it’s a full training course, and so the you basically just get, kind of my take on on how to write sales pages, and then how I broken copy our down Now is that we focus on the four different sections of a sales page, or a sales letter, and this is kind of all, you know, the four sections are not anything new. I tried not to create, like, new terms for different sections of the sales page, just to eliminate some confusion, like, I know a lot of copywriters like to name, or, you know, gurus like to name every single thing. You got to come up with your own stuff so you can talk about it. No one else can. Yeah, exactly. So there’s I, you know, like, basically the program follows five different modules. We start with the offer, then we get, like, so I like to start with the offer, because a lot of times what you can do is you can extract from your product, whatever it is that you’re selling. You extract that that main benefit, and then you kind of put it back up into the headline. Is generally what you want to do, not always, but that’s, you know, good rule of thumb. So start with the offer. I teach how to basically write a good offer, how to come up with with an offer. And then we go into the lead, we go into the sales argument, then into the close and then kind of putting it all together. And and. And, you know, at the end of it, at the end of it, not only have you hand copied all of those different sections. So, like, when I’m talking about the offer, I’m showing you offers. When we’re talking about the lead, I’m showing you leads and how they work. And the there are eight different types of leads that I talk about in copy hour, which is eight different ways to start a sales message. And then, you know, with sales argument, same thing and close, same thing, we’re looking at each individual element of the close and, yeah, at the end of it, you’ve seen all the different versions. You’ve seen all the different pieces of of writing. You’ve hand copied. If you want to hand copy, you don’t have to hand copy, but that’s part of it is you want to do it, and at the end of it, you should have a sales page ready to go, sales letter ready to go. Rob Marsh: How does this apply to email writing? You know, if I’m listening, I’m thinking, I don’t write sales pages. So I’m not sure that this is helpful. How does this translate to, I guess, not even just email writing, but other kinds of copy, even content that other copywriters might be working on. Derek Johanson: Yeah, so I’ll start with email. And I do, we do cover email marketing in copy hour, and I have a separate program on on writing email that that I sell as well. It’s called Email Copy hour. But the the idea genius at naming, aren’t I? So the basically, you can view a lot of different kind of depends on what type of emails you’re sending, but the headline, a lot of the stuff that I talk about with hooks and headlines is going to be your subject line. And then, and actually, you know, we do some, some hand copying of of emails. And so, yeah, you can view your email as, like, just a lead, really like. So I teach you how to write a lead, how to how to have a start. And basically, if you successfully do your lead, people want to read the rest of the message right? So that rest of the message could just be a click to a sales page, or whatever it is that you’re sending people over to. So or, you know, there are sales pages, and actually one that we look at in the course that you can write an entire abbreviated sales letter with a lead, a sales argument, an offer, a close within the email itself. And so, you know, email can be viewed like an individual email could be viewed as just like an abbreviated part of the structure of the, you know, of a sales letter. And so basically, my idea with copy hour is I’m going to teach you how to write a sales page, sales letter. I’m going to teach you how to write a 10,000 word sales letter, if you really wanted to, although I don’t necessarily recommend it, especially for my type of business, I don’t write giant sales letters. I don’t think you need to. I don’t think you have to. I don’t think people want to read it for my particular business. But I will teach you how to write that giant sales letter if you wanted to, and then you can abbreviate it. You can take what you’ve learned from that overall structure and apply that to any type of sales writing. I don’t think it really works in reverse necessarily, like I think if you start off by writing emails, which is, which is great. I mean, it’s a great way to get your foot in the door. That type of copywriting, I think it’s going to be harder to learn how to go from email to a sales page. And frankly, like sales pages, sales letters are going to get you paid the most anybody that I know that’s pushing towards a million dollars a year is writing sales pages, sales letters, offers, creating offers, that type of thing, and so I think it’s the best thing to start with, even though it might be a little bit more difficult than other types of copy, I think it’s the best place to start. Yeah, same can apply to content and everything like depends on, you know, I don’t teach SEO writing. But any sort of like content that could lead to a sale, or does lead to a sale, is the type of copy that that we talk about. Rob Marsh: Do you have a favorite sales page out of the course? One that’s like, wow, this is the this is the top. This is the gold standard. Derek Johanson: I love. Gary Bencivenga’s olive oil letter. Rob Marsh: So that is my all time favorite as well. I’ve done a breakdown of that letter in my own community, and our membership is it’s just, it’s a work of genius. Derek Johanson: And yeah, 100%agree. Yeah, I love it, and I love that it’s still running, as far as I can tell. Like, that same letter still going. Yeah, I think it’s, this has a couple minor tweaks over the years, but, yeah, a version still running. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love that one. It’s fantastic. I’ll link to that for anybody who’s listening, just so you can check it out. It, I mean, it’s got story, it’s got science, it’s it’s so good at selling, it’s really hard to to read that and think, Well, I’m just gonna go to Costco and buy my olive oil after that. Derek Johanson: yeah, exactly. And then Aaron winter is really good. So he used to work for Motley Fool, and now he’s got kind of his own agency with Dan Ferrari. But Aaron winter stuff is really good. The Trillion Dollar War for your living room from Motley Fool, that’s a giant epic sales letter, but I love that one. Mel Martin has some bangers. I like, I love Mel Martin stuff, just like pure bullets. I don’t really use bullets all that much in my copy, but I love Mel Martins. You know, they’re like, you know, it’s like a direct response, sales space, ad type thing, not, not a sales page, but I love those. And then, you know, like, if Carlton stuff is just wild. You know, a lot of it you can’t use today, but I just love the big, giant, strange, weird ideas. And, yeah, Eugene Schwartz, like Eugene stuff is really cool. Just like, lay down on the ground and cure all of your illness. Rob Marsh:  yes, rub your stomach and cure cancer or whatever. Derek Johanson: yeah, yeah, exactly. His stuff was kind of crazy. Rob Marsh: So talk a little bit about your own approach to email. So as I’ve looked at your email, been on your list, I noticed a lot of stories, a lot of open loops, actually, that you don’t close at the end of your email. Sometimes, you know, multi stage, uh, emails to go on for a few days. Yeah. How do you look at email? And you know what you’re trying to do with your own audience? Derek Johanson: Yeah. So this is the stuff that I really love to talk about now, especially because I’ve made a big switch in my email approach and also just my business in general. So I have gone from and, you know, actually, this might answer part of the question, that part of the problem that people are having selling courses this day and age is because a lot of the like, I think a lot of the lower level copywriting, freelance copywriting industry has been completely chopped off, partially AI, partially just fear of AI and content farms— just the market itself. And so the I made a big switch about a year and a half ago to I just want to talk to I do like talking to copywriters, but I think all copywriters want to start a business, their own business. I know that I did, but I made a switch from talking to specifically freelance copywriters. I want to talk to solopreneur business owners. I want to talk to that audience, because that is who I am. Those are the problems that I’m solving every single day. I haven’t done client work since 2017 so for me to feel good about writing and what I’m doing, I want to talk to the people that want to run the same business that I want to run. And that shift has been awesome for me. I kind of got out of talking to freelancers about what they could do that I did. You know eight years ago, it’s more, hey, I’m running a business right now. Here are the challenges that that I’m overcoming, here’s here’s what I’ve done to solve different problems. And so that’s kind of the overarching idea of of my emails, is that I do actually week long tutorials. So I hired a business coach end of last year and or beginning of last year, and he helped me come up with a kind of entire system for sending tutorial emails. So all Monday through Friday, my emails are are all interconnected, right? So I teach a topic like, basically a how to topic, some problem that I specifically myself have solved, and, and, and so I string them all together. Monday is typically an open loop about, like, what exactly I’m going to do for the rest of. The week, what I’m going to teach you Tuesday, I show you an example of of what you know, like, what that particular topic is that could be in story format, or it could just be literally, like, some sort of visual example, or a breakdown of, like, of the topic that I’m going to talk about, I should have a topic in mind when I’m telling you this, because it’ll be easier to describe it. And then Wednesday is kind of a step by step. And then Thursday, I’m basically answering some sort of question that’s probably going to arise from trying to implement those steps. And then on Friday, I’m just kind of doing a recap action plan, type email, and I just cycle through those. And I, you know, my whole thing now is a I am only talking about things that I have actually done and and nothing like, here’s how you could do it. Here’s how I not even like, I got rid of some products that I have or like, here’s what I would do. Everything that I do these days is, here’s exactly what I’ve actually done to produce results. Here’s the step-by-step of it. I try to give away literally, as much as I possibly can. Most of the time, people are telling me that, like, the emails that I’m sending are better than a lot of the different courses that they buy, and I’m sending those for free. I’m literally just trying to give away as much as I possibly can. And like people will talk about, Oh, I gotta give away 90% and leave the 10% for paid products. I found that I don’t even know what the heck that means. So for me, I’m like, give it all away and then in my products, I’m gonna just continue to give it all away and see, yeah, I don’t even know where it’s gonna lead, but it’s like, that’s, that’s my that’s my mindset. And since I adopted that mindset, you know, like these, these bigger launches have happened, it’s really just about owning your expertise. And I’ve, I had to hire a coach and a therapist to kind of tell me, like, Hey, dude, you’re an expert. You’ve sold millions of dollars worth of these products. Like, start talking like you’re an expert. A big issue that that I had in the past was that I was just kind of sending little story emails about my life with no real teaching in them. There wasn’t any sort of value. And that’s great for getting attention. That’s great for having people feel like you’re a friend of theirs, building a relationship in that way. But when when it came time to buy stuff, I was finding that people weren’t buying from me as much as I wanted them to buy. Now, I’ve kind of switched to hey, I’m an expert. I know how to do this stuff. Like, I’ve been doing this for 15 years now. Here are all the different things that I’ve learned. Here’s what’s worked for me, here’s what hasn’t worked for me. And I get a lot less emails from people being like, Oh, I love you, Derek. And I get a lot more sales now. And for me, I’d rather have the sales at the moment as much as I’d like my ego to be stroked like anybody else. It’s like I got two small kids. I live in the most expensive city, one of the most expensive cities in the entire country, and I’m just trying to make money. Rob Marsh: No reason, no reason that the bank account going up doesn’t stroke your ego as well. So you mentioned the shift in confidence. Talk a little bit about that, like, because this is marketing industry-wide, you know, where we have so many experts who are afraid to show up as experts. I’m sure that I do it. Almost everybody I know does it. Some people realize that they’re they’re not, you know, they’re not doing that. But this is obviously my mindset issue, getting rid of the head trash that says you don’t know what you’re talking about or but how did you get through that? Like, what was the process? You know, or maybe I’m asking you to help me with some therapy here, help me step through this problem myself. Derek Johanson: Yeah, well, I’ve got three recommendations, two of which I’m hesitant to tell anybody to do. But let’s start with the first one, hire a business coach. So hiring a business coach was a was a big, gigantic step for me, and what that business coach was able to explain to me that no one really. Had talked about before, was was again, what I had said earlier about owning what you actually have done. So write about what you have actually done, not just what sounds good. And so when I’m writing from a place of what I’ve actually done, I am extremely confident. Because how can you not be confident in something that you’ve you’ve already done? I think where a lot of people get into a lot of trouble when they’re they’re writing, and especially kind of writing in this scenario, where you’re writing to other business owners, or where you where you really need to be the expert. It’s not necessarily like if you’re, you know, writing for a company where you’re selling, you know, a workout program, or you’re writing about like some sort of supplement, but when you’re when you’re writing about what you’ve actually done to to to a group of people that are trying to do similar things to you, it just, yeah, I don’t know it sounds so it kind of sounds, not It sounds too simple or something on the surface, but when you when you’re actually writing about things that you’ve actually done, there’s a confidence to that. And it also just kind of, you know, like you just, you feel better about what you’re doing and, and I think that’s a major issue for a lot of of different copywriters, is they don’t really, like feel good about some of the copy that they’re writing, or that they have to write. And, you know, they almost feel like they’re lying, or like an imposter. Like imposter syndrome is huge. I experience imposter syndrome quite often, until I just kind of forgot all that stuff by writing about what I actually do. Because when you’re writing about what you actually do, then how you How could you be an imposter? Right? So there, and there’s, like, some hard work that’s involved with that too, right? Like, you can’t just kind of phone it in. You actually have to be doing things. So like, for example, I was, I was writing about, forget what exactly the topic was, but I wanted to tell people why I thought something worked, like, some some, maybe it’s like some marketing tactic that I had worked like, how does it work? Like, how well does it work, right? Okay, so I was writing about putting just a simple wait list, like, putting up a wait list for a product that you have on your sales page, put, like, a little wait list box up top. And I was like, how does the strategy work? Does this strategy work? Like? And I was like, writing like, yeah, it works extremely well. And then I was like, Well, how do I know it works extremely well? And I was like, I don’t, I don’t really check the numbers on it, like, I’m not checking my my stats religiously on this opt in box, and how it how it directly relates to the ultimate amount of sales that I got. And so instead of saying, Hey, it works really well, I started talking about, how, about how I don’t have close tracking on the things that I do, and kind of owning the fact that, like, I’ve still built up a pretty successful business without honing in on all the different little metrics, whereas, you know, I feel like most people would kind of just make up, like, make up things and not get specific about numbers. And it was like, I’m not getting specific about numbers because I can’t get specific about numbers, so that’s just a small example. So that’s step one. The two that I have a hard time like recommending to anybody will be therapy. Therapy has helped me immensely. I’m not going to tell somebody to go out and get a therapist, because that just sounds I don’t know, I don’t know that I would hear that well, but a therapist just kind of helps you talk through any of the, any of this shit that’s floating around in your head. That’s helped me a lot, and and then psychedelics, so, mushrooms, so, and I can’t really recommend that to anybody, but mushrooms, basically, just help you understand that everything’s gonna be okay. Rob Marsh: At the very least, a business coach or a little help from somebody who’s been there. And we’ll, we’ll leave those last two steps if, if it feels right for anybody. Derek, this is, this is great, I believe, as we’re going live, CopyHour is open for new students, and we’ll link to it in the show notes. And there’ll be a bonus if you obviously, they can search for it online and find it, but if they buy it through the link on our website, there’d be a little bonus for people to consider. But where else should people go to just find out about you be on your list? You know, to hear to be more in your world? Derek Johanson:  Yeah. So the the easiest thing to do is to go to copyhour.com one word. If you want to dive in and kind of hear about my methodology for writing a sales page, go to copy our.com/framework and that’s a big, long article. I think it’s like things 22 minutes read on exactly how I look at writing a sales page. And you can kind of get your feet wet there, and then, yeah, and then that’s, that’s the best place. I think Rob Marsh: Amazing. I appreciate you taking the time to talk through this, especially salespage handwriting, you know, it’s, it’s always out there in my brain, I’m thinking, you know, I should do this, and then I do it, and my hand hurts, but like, I get the science maybe this time, maybe, maybe I’ll start writing this week. We’ll see. Derek Johanson: It doesn’t have to be for the rest of your life type of thing. I think a lot of us get caught up in, in, oh, this has got to be the thing that I do forever, and then that just makes it so daunting. But it’s like select like bursts of time, like 30 to 90 days of concentrated effort has lifelong effects. Like, even from an from an exercise standpoint. Like, I’ve done some programs, or it’s like a 90 day program, and then I’m done, and I might get a little bit fat again, or whatever you want to, you know, say, like, put on some pounds, and if I wanted to get back in shape, I generally, I mean, I’m 40 now, so I don’t know how true this is, but, like, I generally, I generally know that, like, I can get back to a decent place a lot more quickly than than if I hadn’t done that initial uh, 90 day workout program when I was younger. So I think the same thing applies with with this. It’s like, you got to learn. I mean, copywriting like, this is your podcast, right? Like, copywriting is such a foundational piece. It’s, it’s the thing that has enabled all of the income that I’ve made in an online business situation. Being good at copywriting is, like, the number one skill, if you’re good at copywriting or good at coding, like, those are the two things, like, what else is there? You know, like, what else? What else is going to allow you to make a really, really good income? I don’t know. So it because copywriting is sales, right? Sales, salesmanship and print. Rob Marsh: Yeah, exactly. That’s good advice. Thanks to Derek for talking about his program, learning copy by handwriting, and how he attracts new customers using affiliates, which seems to be working even over the past couple of years when so many online course sellers have struggled… which may be another reason to check out copy hour by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/copyhour to learn more. A course that continues to sell this well is likely effective at delivering on its promise… helping copywriters get better at what we all do for our clients. Let’s talk a bit more about the science of handwriting… there aren’t any studies specifically about learning the principles of copywriting when writing things out by hand, but activating the connection between your hand and, specifically, your forefinger and thumb and the brain has a proven impact on learning all kinds of skills. So it’s not too crazy to think it has an oversized impact on learning how to write copy. In addition to the nerves that fire between your hand and brain, when studying a sales page, your brain is also breaking down why the words work the way they do… why they are in the order they are in… and how the words impact your thinking. If you’re going to practice this on your own, make sure that the copy you are hand-copying is effective and actually sells because practicing on bad copy could result in bad writing habits… again, this might be where checking out Copy Hour at thecopywriterclub.com/copyhour will help you become a better writer because you know all of the examples you’ll be handcopying in the course are proven winners. If Copy Hour isn’t right for you, or if what Derek said about hiring a coach a few minutes ago resonates with you… This is something I help copywriters with in The Copywriter Underground. I can’t help with mushrooms or therapy, but I can help you build a more resilient, successful copywriting business in The Underground. In addition to the coaching, you also have access to more than 70 workshops and playbooks that help you implement the strategies they teach, templates, and accountability as you build your business—that’s in The Copywriter Underground at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. One more thing… Derek mentioned his emails and what people have said about them. He’s right, I’m on his list, and they are very readable. You may want to jump on his list as well, just to see what he’s doing. Again, you can do that at thecopywriterclub.com/copyhour  All of the stuff I’ve mentioned is linked in the show notes for this episode.

Yes, you write. But when it comes to marketing, you can do a lot more than that. Today, clients are looking for help from specialists like copywriters who bring more to the table. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Emily Reagan about how writers can offer additional services and expertise to their clients. Emily helps virtual assistants step up into a more helpful role as Marketing Assistants, and it’s something we think more copywriters need to consider. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff we mentioned: Atomic Habits Emily’s Podcast Emily’s Instagram The Authority Framework The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  You’re a copywriter, but you can do other marketing stuff like design or email systems. Is there a need for that? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. As a copywriter, you probably have a hand in all kinds of marketing activities—everything from the overall marketing strategy to brainstorming lead magnets, to creating and posting content, or writing and managing ads, to figuring out which email systems will help increase engagement and purchases… you probably already do a lot of this stuff. What’s more, a lot of clients want smaller, more nimble teams these days, and that means working with people who can do more of the tasks they used to depend on an entire team to get done. Some people taking on these expanded roles call themselves marketing assistants. Whether that title works for you or not isn’t important. What really matters is that there is a growing need for writers of all kinds to take on this larger, more inclusive role and contribute more, often using A.I. to bring it all together. My guest for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Emily Reagan. Emily started out offering marketing support especially related to Facebook ads, but she expanded beyond that to include copywriting and other marketing services. And she’s spent the past couple of years helping others do the same thing. We talked about the importance of adding additional marketing services to your copywriting business to make yourself more valuable—maybe even indispensable—for your clients. It’s yet another way to stand out from all the other writers out there who don’t offer clients anything extra. While we talked, Emily also shared a lot of details about her business—she works with clients and helps other writers grow their marketing skills. As she tells it, her business grew serendipitously… going from one thing to the next as it made sense. It’s not exactly a path that others can follow, but it is a strategy for finding your own path to the work you love doing. I think you’re going to like this discussion. As usual, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard me talk about how we’ve recently rebuilt The Underground dashboard to make it easier to find the ideas and insights you need. But as I started recreating this new dashboard, it occurred to me that no one has time to watch more than 70 different workshops—even for those workshops that help you gain the skills and strategies you need to build your business. So I’ve taken more than 30 of those workshops on finding clients, having sales calls, using A.I., building authority on LinkedIn, and dozens of others… and I’ve created playbooks that break down the ideas in the workshops into easy-to-follow steps. Each playbook is 3-5 pages long. You can read through one and implement the ideas in minutes. And then if you want more detail, you can watch the accompanying workshop. Each playbook even includes a checklist so you don’t miss any steps and can make sure you get things done. I’m working on completing playbooks for all of the workshops and training inside The Underground. They should all be ready by the end of April. You can get the first 30 or so right now by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Emily Reagan… Hey Emily, welcome to the podcast. And let’s, let’s just start out by saying this is a long time coming. The last time we saw each other, it’s like five years ago. And I don’t know why we haven’t had you on sooner than the now, but I’m glad you’re here now that you’re here. Yeah, tell us. Tell us your story. How did you become a copywriter? Emily Reagan: Yeah, it’s been five years in the making. The last time you and I were together was right when the pandemic was happening in 2020, so it’s a completely different time. And my business has changed a lot since I showed up to your conference in real life. But you know how business owners, especially the online ones, are running around like crazy, trying to wear all the hats, do all the things, and keep all the marketing and all the gardens happy? I am the person who started training the marketing assistant to help within that marketing department. It started because I was a military wife for 20 years, had this hodgepodge of journalism and PR jobs, and was just lucky to find a job only to move a year or two later. And it kind of all came together beautifully in the online space, and then I just started teaching my friends how to do it. So when I went to your conference, I wasn’t officially calling myself a copywriter, but I was still finding myself doing that work. Had I known about it back in 2007 when I was freelancing my first press releases, I would have just gone all into Copyright. Marketing, but I didn’t know what I didn’t know. So yeah, now I train virtual assistants to be in the marketing department, because marketing, it’s more fun, it’s creative, it’s flexible, it pays more. And that’s where I’m happy. I love that, and I’m really glad we started here because so many copywriters in The Copywriter Club. People who listen to this podcast start out as VAs, and they come to that realization, wait a second, I’m doing way more here than just being an assistant. And the cream always rises. I mean, “Assistant” never would have appealed to me, so I’ve really struggled with my own marketing. I’m like, do I use the title: virtual assistant? Because that’s the SEO word, but it’s so much more. And I think the term virtual assistant is just really getting kind of dumbed down. When I get into my Kia Carnival, and I see the little button for a virtual assistant, I’m thinking of AI. And so this job title has evolved since I even started, you know, training people four years ago, and that’s why I kind of went all in with the idea of a marketing assistant, because there’s just so many options online, and then you start adding different skills like copy or customer service or podcasting content marketing, and you’ve just created a whole different type of unique specialization for yourself. So it’s really fun to see how it all comes together online. Rob Marsh: So let’s talk about being a marketing assistant. You just kind of listed off a bunch of the things that they might do. But let’s, let’s go a little bit deeper with this idea, because I really like it. I think that there’s space maybe for a lot of people who have been vas, but they feel like they’re doing more, but maybe they’re not ready yet to call themselves a copywriter or a designer or a CMO or whatever the next thing is, there’s kind of the space out there. So how do you define that marketing assistant? Emily Reagan: Yeah, and especially getting confusing when you see AI can help. You’re seeing things being delegated and outsourced overseas for super cheap. So you know, all businesses have six main departments. We have operations, customer service, HR, finances, you know, accounting, product development, and then we have marketing and sales. And so this marketing, I think, where a lot of business owners get it wrong is they’re trying to find a virtual assistant to do everything and save their business by Thursday and launch and video edit, you know. And so, really drilling down into what department I am in and what kind of results I am going after? A lot of us hold ourselves back, thinking we need a four-year marketing degree, and those kinds of days are a little bit over. Rob Marsh: So, if I wanted to maybe step into that newer role, do I need to know how to write copy and also use Canva and edit video for the person that I might be working with in order to get things onto reels or YouTube? What are the things that I need in my skill wheelhouse in order to be able to, you know, start calling myself a marketing assistant? Emily Reagan: I think you need to combine, like, complimentary skills, for sure. And what’s interesting is, in my course, I am teaching, I say, I, you know, I’m teaching you how to grow an audience online and help your clients sell to that audience, right? And so we’re nurturing, and we’re selling, we’re converting. And so that’s kind of the role of the marketing assistant, is, which channels are we driving traffic? Like, how are we nurturing them? How are you getting them on the list? Which algorithms like, like, what? Right? So that’s a little bit of the game. But in my course, I teach the tech, I teach the strategy, and I’m always saying and complimenting you. The next thing is copy. You have to learn how to sell with words. So I think anytime you can add copy to a specific or niche or even general marketing, you know, service, you are going to be sitting pretty. You’ll you’ll have, you know, more career flexibility. You know, easier retention with clients because clients really want that long-term help. I mean, I don’t know about you, but in the online space, I’m seeing a lot of teams simplifying, streamlining, and condensing. We don’t all want 20 employees in our business anymore. We’re looking more at profits. The online space is changing. So if we can find someone who can offer a little bit higher value, you know, they can also, you know, charge more too. So it’s figuring out, what is the right way to add copy in there. And I think copy is a must. That’s something I preach. And, like I said, when I was starting, I didn’t know it was a thing. I kind of fell into it, and it started with, like, Okay, well, I need to whip out this thank you page; my client gave me nothing, and it’s holding me back; I’ll just take care of it. So that’s kind of how it started with me. Or, like, blogging, or, you know, Pinterest. How do I get the click on these, you know, simple Pinterest pins I’m making? Rob Marsh: You just said something that really like, rings a bell, and it’s that I’ll just take care of it. It’s as if they’re the person who is right for this kind of title or role is the person who cares about the business of the person they’re working for. Is that right? Emily Reagan: Okay, so we’re finding how we can, like, fit our copy words into marketing systems. So like, if you’re already naturally doing that and thinking in terms of strategy or what comes next, and you’re enjoying it, and the client is asking you, that’s such an opportunity to, you know, level up into the next role. Like I said, assistants are leveling up to specialists to marketing managers and strategists. I don’t know about you, but I know a lot of copywriters do way more than just copy. They’re coming in and now advising on the strategy of the funnel or the launch or the webinar, and so those are opportunities to start wearing that you know are dubbing yourself like the higher title that you might not feel ready for because you’re already actually doing it you just you know might not recognize that. That makes sense. So you were saying when we met each other at the conference in San Diego, you were kind of struggling with how to call yourself, or what to call yourself, how to make that shift. So what was the thing that, like, snapped for you, that that you know, like, changed everything you’re like, Oh, I see now what I really am or where I can make that contribution. I’m going to tell this story in reverse and spoiler alert. It ends with you, but it starts with you. I actually went on to do a hodgepodge of skills and enjoyed it. I like variety. I have this crazy skill set, and one of the jobs I’ve worked with a lot of high-end copywriters and marketers, some of them, you will know that I will never mention their names on this podcast, and I found myself in this role as an ads manager, combining my unique skill set, I’m doing the tech the audience. I’m doing the copy, and I’m doing a little bit of the design. Am I going to do a perfectly produced Facebook ad? No, at some point, like, I will hire out the specialist. So let me just throw that out there. And I’m like, chuckling because the ads are going live, and everyone’s like, this guy is so great. His copy is so good. I’m studying it, and I’m like, It’s me, it’s me, it’s not him. And I’m, you know, it’s going great, and then all of a sudden, the funnel breaks, it doesn’t work, and who gets thrown under the bus? It’s me, the ads manager. There’s only so much in my control if the button’s not working, the landing page isn’t loading, and the tech isn’t delivering what it said I got I got hosed. And so I found myself at this moment with a very high-end funnel expert who everyone would know if I said his name, just staring me down, and he looked at me and he said, Are you a copywriter? Because they’re doing like a funnel audit, and I’m just like fudge. I quivered. I went silent. And I regret that moment to my day, and I should have reflected back to the fact that if you’re doing copy, you are a copywriter, and just own it. And you and I had that conversation in the bar in San Diego where I told you, I don’t know why I’m here at this at this conference with all these copywriters. I look at you and your experience and everything you know with advertising and marketing, and you know your method for writing copy, and I don’t bring that to the table, but I bring something else, right? And at that bar, I told you, hey, I don’t feel like a copywriter, and you just like, anointed me one right then and there. And so it’s permission to call yourself that. And, you know, take responsibility for what you do bring to the table and own that. And I’m just putting it out there for your listeners, like I buffed it, even after you annoyed at me, I got fired. Long, long story short, they needed to fire me. They had no right to run ads to a broken funnel, right? So I think about that moment that was really pivotal for me to own my experience and what I bring to the table that will never happen again. And I have since done ads for other people. Like, right now I’m doing, I’m actually working with an ads manager, but, like, I know enough about copy messaging and how it should work, where now I’m, like, managing it as a CMO, and we’re doing great. Like, it had nothing to do with that one-time client experience. I did ads for another client, like in January, and we did great there, too. So I don’t know, I don’t know if that made sense, but it was just like a fun story that kind of brings it all together. And it’s really about like positioning yourself as an expert, but really feeling it and believing it. Rob Marsh: Thanks for sharing that. I forgot that conversation. I remember hanging out with you at the bar, but I totally spaced that, that that had even happened. I was in a fog, and that whole week was kind of crazy. But yeah, so I guess if anybody’s listening and they’re thinking, and wait a second, maybe I’m ready to step up, you and I together, we can knight them right now and say, look, if you’re writing copy, you’re a copywriter. If you’re writing copy for yourself… if you’re writing it for just one client… if you’re a VA or you’re doing something else, but you’re still helping them with that stuff, lean into that and grow that experience. And, you know, do the things that you need to do in order to really step into that role. Emily Reagan: Yeah, I’ll go, don’t be shy. Offer that support to your clients. At some point it’s a fuzzy line, right? Like, when are you going out of scope? When are you doing too much? But I think it’s easy to flex it with the clients you have now. Build the confidence, build the competence. We know about that loop. You just have to insert yourself into that. And there’s so much to be said with just the job title. I mean, I coach a lot of my students with the job title, so it’s so funny that I got stuck on it too. You know, thinking about all of the talented copywriters we had there, I remember Justin Blackman staying on the stage, on the stage, saying he got this huge contract, and even he was scared. And I was like, wow, if Justin’s scared, I can be too. And I still add value to my clients. They need help. They have a hard time finding someone who can do marketing. It’s hard to find fractional good marketers right now, and so feeling good about what I bring to the table is really key, and being able to partner with them ongoing and long term, I’m fitting a void that a lot of freelancers don’t do. Rob Marsh: So while we’re still talking about this, how, let’s say that there are skills that somebody’s thinking, Okay, I have been writing copy, but I don’t know enough about marketing or some of this other stuff. How would you recommend they go about adding these kinds of skills so that they’re actually practitioners of them, and they’re not just, you know, reading a book or taking a course? Emily Reagan: Oh, that’s a good question. Obviously, we all feel good if we take a course or we learn from someone ahead of us, right? Like, that’s like the fastest track for doing anything. But I would just be really intentional with how you combine things like, you know, an obvious one for a skill stack for copywriters, learning funnels. You know, clients need help. They want somebody who understands marketing strategy, the automations, how we can be really strategic and personal right now, especially with these conversations that are happening. So if you can offer a combination of at least the strategy and the copy, it could be that we hire out the tech, but if you enjoy the tech, like sometimes my brain enjoys shutting down a little bit, and doing some of that can be very black and white. I think funnels are an obvious low-hanging fruit, like easy money on the table whenever you can get involved. How is the world adapting with launching? And how can you stay in the forefront? I don’t know about you. I’m seeing a lot of people doing more evergreen or less live, launching more ongoing containers. Like less pressure to launch. I think automation is a big one. Figuring out, like many chat funnels right now are huge or any kind of bot assistance, so like combining them in the right way, I like to use my current clients for practice. And you can always obviously practice on your own business. I think that’s the safest place to do it. Rob Marsh: So another thing that occurs to me while we’re talking about this is obviously the copywriting world is changing as well, and a lot of copywriters are struggling to find work. Maybe it’s AI, maybe it’s the economy, but there’s this sneaking suspicion, and it may not be wrong that at least some of that lower-level copywriting work is gone and maybe gone forever. Thanks again to AI, and so there’s probably an opportunity here for even copywriters or content creators to expand their skill sets into maybe they wouldn’t call themselves a marketing assistant, but it’s more of a marketer CMO type thing by adding these other skill sets so you’re not just writing email and sending off a doc with copy in it, but you’re also loading that into an ESP, or setting up the welcome sequence, or the abandoned cart sequence, or helping the clients identify the missing pieces where money’s kind of leaking out of their business. And more of us need to be doing that in order to ensure that there’s work in the future. Emily Reagan: Yeah, or taking it to the next step. I was thinking of a brand voice person I worked with—a client, and she gave us all of these amazing messaging points, and then what we need help taking it to the next step. And so I know that she has since pivoted and added, like, building the AI copywriter to go with it, with my brand voice, and so like making it that full package, just a higher value, we would have paid probably $10,000 for that instead of the five, because now I have something I can turn around and give to my team. Who I pay. I do pay for lower-level tasks for some of that. But here’s what’s never going away, like the data analysis, somebody to sit down and have the oversight. Copywriters are so good at being strategic with surveys. You know, before we hit record, I was talking about Brittany McBean, and I got a chance to see her brain working in a launch for my course. The way she analyzed the survey data just blew my mind. I’d never seen that. And that’s the kind of stuff that my little AI copywriter can’t do at her level. And what I we ultimately need is that final messaging right? And that’s what copywriters do so well, they do the market research. This is why I always get hesitant to call myself one, because I like to come in with, like, the final product and, like, make decisions, but that final messaging stamp is just getting noisier and harder to stand out. I mean, you have a lot of good podcasts here on the show talking about, like, how to write the hook, but we need the people to, like, oversee them and make sure it’s actually moving the business forward right like businesses are kind of struggling right now on the online space. So we got to stand out. We’ve got to convert even better than before. Rob Marsh: Okay, so let’s talk about how your business changed. Then, you know, from where we were five years ago, and kind of in that struggle giving yourself permission today, your business is really different. Yeah, I have always kind of had my like, mutually exclusive things, like, I do the client work. I’m still a practitioner. I enjoy it. It keeps me relevant. So I have some client work, I’ve just had to be very intentional and strategic about who I say yes to, which is always the freelance like boundary and like problem we get into, like, which clients do we say yes to? So I have kind of streamlined that. And I basically work like CMO projects over there, or ads, like something that can be like high level one time, on and off. Emily Reagan: I found myself doing a lot of quiz funnels, you know, I worked with Chanti Zak, and I took her course, and I was able to do that. For a lot of the work, I partnered with a copywriter. I was actually doing a lot of the tech, and then the ads, and so that’s kind of where ads kind of fell into my lap, and it’s really fun to watch what copywriters turn in. And I’ve always learned that way back when my clients called me their VA, I can remember them hiring copywriters and me just eating it up because I was the one making the changes, like going into the landing page and like, oh, they that makes sense. So I never had actually taken a copywriting course, which is why I felt like an imposter back in 2019, so I kind of found a way to marry my knack for writing and copywriting and design and build these funnels. And then I started teaching people how to do the work, too, because it’s been so empowering for somebody like me. There are a lot of over-educated, underemployed military spouses or women who had a baby break, or people transitioning to staying at home or making a change in their careers. And I just realized, like, you don’t need a marketing degree in this day and age if I can teach you how the algorithms work and what business owners are trying to do so we can give you the whole picture. You can learn how to do this and start with a couple of services. So there’s like two parts of my business now, and it’s pretty wild to go from behind the scenes to the face of my business, which is slightly uncomfortable, but you know, when you know you’re helping other people, you’ll, you’ll do it and, yeah, what do you want to talk about in there? Because there’s, like, so many little side conversations. Rob Marsh:  You’ve got a lot of different moving pieces as well. I think you’ve got a community. You’ve got a podcast of your own. Yeah? I mean, in addition to, you know, copywriting, you’re doing PR, and, you know, a lot of the moving pieces in the background for your clients. So there’s almost not even a title for all of the things that you’re doing. Emily Reagan: When somebody was like, what do you do? Because I always lean into my PR experience. I knew how to write a press release and get it printed in a Podunk paper, word by word, like, that’s, that’s what I knew how to do. And that press release turned into media kits, which turned into me looking at Google Analytics, which turned into Pinterest, which turned into blogging, which turned into landing pages and funnels. So it was like, not a like, a linear thing at all. So I do, I have done some pitching and like, use the skill set over there. Ads are really easy. It’s like, you kind of want to go where, like, it’s easy and natural for you, and you almost feel kind of bad about it, because it comes so natural, you know? Rob Marsh: But there’s, like, a trade-off with that too. Oftentimes, when something comes naturally to us, we don’t price it properly because we were like, Oh, this is easy. Like, this isn’t work, and so it must not be valuable. And so we end up staying in those lower roles even though we’re doing this higher level work. Emily Reagan: Yeah, I think the more teams I work on, the more I see a what a hot mess. A lot of people are. They look very successful online. I mean, all of us are struggling. So even the most organized person who might look intimidating might not be creative and need your skill, and vice versa, if you’re one of those integrator organized, you know, EOS people like somebody needs the talent you have out there. And I agree it’s like really easy to undervalue your work, but isn’t that the goal to find what you’re most passionate about? What you’re good at? And what you love? What people are paying you for? I always struggled, what do I call myself? And I was kind of joking with my teammate, and I was like, I’m a unicorn. And it turns out there is such a thing as a full-stack unicorn marketer. I didn’t even know that. I was just kind of combining my PR with this, like, new world of online business, I discovered and dubbed myself a unicorn, and then it kind of became a thing, and that is part of my branding now, which is funny, because I’m very much Sporty Spice and not a sparkly unicorn girl, but it is the essence of what we’re all trying to do, like find that sweet spot for us. We all come from unique backgrounds and experiences. And I will never forget Chanti telling me that one of her first blogs she wrote was in podiatry like that was her passion? And you, you know, you’re like a health nut. You’re really into, like, a little plantar fasciitis protection like that could be like the dream business, writing content and copy for, I don’t know, that type of doctor, podiatrists. Rob Marsh: It’s interesting… this kind of skill stacking, and how we all put it together. We’ve always called it finding your X-Factor when we’ve taught these workshops in our programs.It is the way there. We’ve said this a whole bunch of times, but like, there are over 750,000 copywriters on LinkedIn. There are over a million content writers on LinkedIn, if you add content strategists or social media strategists, there’s 2 million more of those, right? So standing out in that crowd is really hard. But when you start doing this kind of skill stacking where you’re matching this thing that you like and that thing you like, it’s pretty easy—once you have four or five things you’re combining in unique ways—to be the number one in that combination. So you don’t have to be the very best copywriter and compete with those millions, but you do have to be the very best copywriter who works in your niche, who brings to the table your three or four skills, and writes in the voice, or can mimic the voice, right? And you combine these four or five things together, that’s your X Factor, and that’s basically what you’re you’re helping your clients do as well. Emily Reagan: And then you add in SEO, and you’re really golden. Rob Marsh: Exactly, or AI, or whatever, yeah. The more you add in, the more unique you become. Emily Reagan: I was reading, is it James clears book? I’m so bad at quoting people, but he talked about Atomic Habits, right? That’s James Clear, yeah? He talked about combining his masters and like, a way to stand out. Like, if you can’t compete with Michael Phelps in Olympic swimming, like, create your own create your own field. And he talked about how you combine his major in a unique way, which just made him special. Like, that’s exactly what we’re doing. You change the playing field that you’re on. When you do that, I will tell you that a lot of copywriters don’t, and because I’m implementing a lot of the work, they don’t understand design UX. How many times have I been like, if that headline doesn’t fit, or your Facebook headline doesn’t fit, because there are only so many characters, and then SEO is a big one, like, that’s never going to go away, and especially with AI like skimming everything? So right off the bat, those would be two things, but I’ll tell you this, I think I appreciate copy more as I run my team, I’m going to throw my team under the bus when I see their responses sometimes in emails and customer engagement, even if they’re just set or sending out an email as a reminder to attend an event, I see the lack of copy, knowledge and messaging in their writing, and that drives me crazy as a business owner, and I will never hire someone again who doesn’t know how to write. And I don’t I mean beyond grammar, like the copy of reminding people, why are we showing up to this happy hour for the work group? And it’s not because we are shooting the breeze and we just like to hang out and take it easy. No, like, there’s a deeper mission impact and like, reason, they’re in this community, and we’re meeting up, and all of that was lacking from these little I’m going to call them piddly, like, internal communication. And for me, that’s eye-opening. Some clients just won’t get it, but the clients who do, I mean, they’re keepers. They’re keepers. Rob Marsh: Well, I think more and more the clients who don’t get it, they’re using content farms or AI or whatever like they never were looking for that higher level stuff. But the keeper clients need humans more than ever, and they value that, and they will keep you, and they will pay well for that. And that’s why that messaging, I think, is just so important to bring to the table. So you’re talking to copywriters, marketers, marketing assistants all the time. Where do you see the biggest opportunities in online marketing today? Emily Reagan: Oh, definitely. AI and  finding a way to combine it and be more efficient. Even whether it’s in your own work, streamlining your own work so you’re not trading as much time or being able to do it in that deliverable, like we talked about with that other brand voice person I was working with, and then the AI can go into even more automations, like I was thinking about how I used to manually listen to my clients, Facebook, live, transcribe it. I’m that old, transcribe it, then create blogs from that. I mean, that was like a full day experience. I learned her business so deeply, but now I can do all of that so quickly and just deliver such a better quality. And I think, and I think AI is really where it’s going. And I don’t mean that in a way to scare people, because I do have people in my work group who are like, Oh, my God, AI is replacing me. And like, it’s really not, if you can just add it into what you’re doing. And honestly, if I have somebody I’m interviewing for my team and I know they’re using AI, I trust them more. You know, they’re not going to be like, just sending me this giant invoice of all these dumb man hours. There’s this, like something, when someone’s ahead of it and incorporating it, it shows that they’re, like, on the forefront, cutting edge, that they’re thinking about my business like, there’s a lot of trust that goes into that. Rob Marsh: There’s also an opportunity here that I think a lot of us are missing, and that is, you know, even when a copywriter or a content writer gets feedback from the client that says, Oh, we’re using AI to create that now, well, somebody at their business still has to be using the ai, ai to do that, right? And so why them instead of you? And I think sometimes we’re afraid of having that conversation with the client saying, okay, I get it. We can use AI for that. Let me handle that. Obviously, it’s we’re not gonna be charging 20 hours for the project anymore. It’s only gonna take us an hour. But that also opens up the other hours we were working for them to do more, right, even if using AI or to bring more ideas to the table or things that they weren’t able to get to. And I just think sometimes we’re as as freelancers or contract workers, we’re afraid to have that conversation because, well, sometimes it actually is going to end up in less work for us. Emily Reagan: Yeah, I think it’s also music to the client’s ears. And I know, you know, kind of thinking about that fractional role, what we’re missing is the oversight, the consistency and branding, and messaging like it can feel so disjointed you get all these other people doing it. So I think that when you pitch yourself to the client, you kind of show that, like quality will actually improve. And yeah, I think sometimes a lot of people are afraid, but I know from all the business owners I’ve worked with, the ones that I’ve coached, or they’ve turned around and hired, are unicorns. They all want somebody to just take the reins and get it out of their brain and, like, start, you know, spinning those plates. And so offer it. Don’t be afraid to offer it. Rob Marsh: While we’re on that topic, let’s talk about finding clients because a lot of people are struggling with that right now for a variety of different reasons. You see a lot of clients, a lot of requests for copywriters, content writers come through your group. I know what are people looking for, and why does it feel so hard to connect with clients today? This would probably be a two-hour discussion. Emily Reagan:  Oh, my goodness.  Okay, I want to start with we’ve had over 3,000 jobs that we’ve shared with my little work group, and I like to check the data. I was looking at the top. What are people asking? And granted, like, this isn’t like a clean data set, right? It’s people coming from marketing assistance, but the number one thing they want help with is email marketing. Like, that’s just not going away. So I think if you can offer services, or especially for somebody new, that people actually want and need, is just the best way to get your foot in the door. I feel like I see a lot of service providers who get really rigid about what they do and what they don’t do, and such a double-edged sword, you know, but when you’re getting started, it’s like, you gotta, like, fit the market demand. Like, what do people actually need? And maybe get really good at that and build off of that. The other three, I didn’t have the data right in front of me, but social media came high up there. And I know that social from, I don’t know, a few years ago, you could just kind of post whatever and not really have any intention. But social media gets a bad rep. But you add an AI, and it’s not that hard to take a concept, sales, email, create tons of, you know, social posts off of that. So I think that would also be like a good starting service to go in there and again, meet where the demand is right. What are you seeing with the client work? I think that there is a lot of new people, if I’m in a rift for a second, starting businesses, who don’t have any right to start a business, who got sold into a dream that I just do this one digital revenue stream, and I’m going to. Be rich, and they’re not thinking about what it takes and cost to run a business, and it takes, it does take time. It takes human capital. And so they do this initial like, oh, start with very little, and then they’re not thinking about the long term, like, who they hire first, what they actually need. How do they actually sell? And so I think we are kind of recovering a little bit from that as service providers and seeing the aftermath. On the flip side, I’m just going to keep going, Rob, I was seeing a lot of this Freelancer culture, of people who didn’t make it in corporate, who didn’t really cut it, who thought it would be easy to just start this type of business over here, and they’re kind of doing us dirty too, because they’re not delivering, they’re ghosting, they’re turning in bad work or Yeah. And so it’s like we’re kind of getting, getting it from two sides. And I think it’s really hard for us right now. Just like to pick out the good clients and the good work and not let everything else, plus AI, get us down. Rob Marsh: I think if somebody could invent the quality signal thing that is able to show clients that, yes, this copywriter is really good, and that one is one you maybe shouldn’t like, that person would be a billionaire overnight. You know, this is like to be able to communicate that you do good work, that you deliver on deadlines, that you do what you say, that you stick to, you stick to the proposal, or to the scope of the project, that you know you’re helping your client solve real problems. Like, I mean, I don’t want to call them a unicorn because there’s more than a handful of people who do that, but also, you’re probably in the top 20% of copywriters if you can do that stuff. Emily Reagan: It’s the soft skills, 100% how you show up, how you make the client feel. What does that look like? How you communicate. It’s the soft skills that make the difference. I have a couple of people in my work group who want to niche into copywriting, and they’re a couple of them have been a little bit whiny. I hope they don’t listen to this episode, but I want to tell them, like, if you want to be hired for these services, like, you have to demonstrate that you’re good at this. And this doesn’t mean your portfolio has all the writing you’ve ever done, but it starts with your own business. And if you don’t look like a professional or somebody I can trust, like, why is anyone going to hire you to do like that sales page that you really want to charge $10,000 for. And so I think that is hard, is I don’t see people putting effort into their own business and their own marketing so that we do trust you with everything else going on. Rob Marsh: This is such a weird ethic, like you. I mean, I think I saw, saw the start, you know, as the pandemic was going on, a lot of people had to stay home, like, hey, this stay-home thing is pretty sweet. I’m gonna, I’m gonna do a job that’s like that. And so immediately it’s like, oh, copywriter, you know, I can write. I learned how to write in second grade. You know, I can, I can do this thing. And they jumped, I mean, I’m kind of repeating what you’re saying earlier. They jumped in without the marketing knowledge without having gone through, you know, any of the formulas, or trying to teach themselves anything. They just put up the shingle and said, yeah, I can write. Obviously, a small percentage of them do and can, but writing is like any other skill, and you have to know the formulas and the frameworks. You have to know how to get somebody from where they are to where they need to go. You’ve got to be able to talk about transitions and transformation and results and all of those things. I’m preaching to you, hopefully people listening that this is helpful, but if you can do those things, then, yeah, you’re, you’re probably going to be okay. I hope somebody listening just feels good that, like, Okay, I am. I’m in the top 10% like, I’m doing well, and I can charge for that because I do that, I put that effort, and I do the research, and it’s not just like delivering fast copy. I think that’s really the difference maker. Emily Reagan: Yeah, and then it’s just a matter of laddering up from the clients you have to clients that can afford to pay more, who have bigger problems to solve and leveraging, you know, one client to move on to the next. And, I mean, it is, it’s work that, I mean, that’s really what it you know, it’s like, it doesn’t happen by itself. People don’t find you when you’re at home, or even if you have a great website, like, you still have to put in the reps and do the work. Referrals have always been huge for me. I was fortunate to start at a time when I didn’t need a website. There wasn’t enough of me to go around. I booked out really quickly. But I see a lot of people that think like, if I just turn on the light, I’m open for business. Clients will come. Or if I’m just good, the work will come to me, but there is this level of, I don’t want to say self-promotion, but like visibility, that you have to do. Yeah, never just start a freelance business and hide behind the keyboard, and clients land in your lap. I mean, if you’re transitioning from a career where you already have those connections, it will be more easy for you. But a lot of us are not. And so putting in the work after you do the course, or after you build your website and write beautiful copy, I think that’s really hard, is the client marketing acquisition system, like, how do you get those leads? And a lot of us, I know in my community, we don’t all want to be dancing on Tiktok to get clients. I’m never onna say never. But like, no, that’s not my style. So it’s like, it there is a level of content marketing, like building the right high authority, you know, assets that show you as an expert. It’s a little bit of the outreach, it’s the strategic partnerships, but it’s, it’s the stupid networking, right? People have to know who you are. And I know in the copywriter circle, all the business owners, and this happened with the VAs, they’re like, Who are you working with? Who do you love? And they’re just whispering and tossing names around in boxer, and that’s like, the goal is, like, how do you get your name in that conversation? Rob Marsh: Okay, so how do you grow your list? What are you doing to attract subscribers? I’m asking this a little bit selfishly, because obviously I want to steal all of your ideas for list building, but I think you’ve done some pretty unique things. Emily Reagan: Yeah, One of the first things I did starting my business, because I knew how important it was, right, like I got to grow the audience, was I did that quiz. I did Chanti’s quiz course (Note: there is a short workshop about creating quizzes inside The Copywriter Underground), and built a quiz. It does need refinement now, yeah, but what I loved about quizzes, and what I found with my client work, was the cost per lead was really low. And, you know, there have to be levels of you have to go back and fix the messaging and just refine it, because it can attract a lot of people by, like, really narrowing it down. The quiz is really great. At one point, I was running a quiz for a client. We were getting 25-cent leads, and her quiz, we just left that ad on, is doing so well. Now, on the flip side, she’s not selling well at the end, but like, that’s on her, right? Like, that’s not me. It’s gonna point that out. But yeah, that quiz is working well. How do I grow my list? You know what? I feel like a black kettle saying this. I really like blogging. I really like SEO. I play a good SEO game. One of the first things I did when I started being visible in my business was blogging and like, trying to really, like, dominate my industry and be a key person of influence, not necessarily that influencer that you know, you know, self-promoting Instagram influencer, but just really trying to show that I’m a leader in this space and people can come to me. So blogging has been good ads. I will always stand by ads is like the fastest way to do it. I think it’s harder. After working with copywriters, it’s hard to attract people who are sophisticated and know there’s going to be an order bump, and an upsell, and a sales sequence. And so it’s trickier, I think, for you as a copywriter. But, yeah, I don’t know. I’m just gonna fizzle out on that question. What should I do? Rob Marsh: Well, I wanna, I wanna, actually, to go back to the idea of blogging, because you’re not the first person I’ve heard from this, although I think blogging has changed in some ways that are pretty significant since, you know, 2008 when it, you know, was really maybe at the high point when conversations actually happened on blogs and comment sections and all that and that. That still isn’t really happening, but I’m seeing a lot of people blog less on their own home pages, which you should probably still be doing because of SEO and because AI reads all of that stuff and, you know, puts that into their engines, that’s still good. But a lot of those blog posts are showing up as Facebook posts or as LinkedIn posts. Everybody goes to LinkedIn, but I’m actually, I think the algorithm in Facebook is starting to serve more and more content to people in the feed over what they used to prioritize, groups, conversations and that kind of stuff. So are you just blogging on your site, or are you sharing those posts in other ways as well? Emily Reagan: I try to share them, but definitely blogging on my site to increase my domain authority. Like, that’s working really well. Sometimes I get my friends to do guest blogs too. Like, I want to keep the content going there. I know with, like, AI and, you know, ChatGPT, it’s a little different. Now, things are changing. I’m not the best SEO person to talk about that, but, you know, I have a blog on niches for virtual assistants, and this is my top blog, and I get a couple of 1000 every month, people just looking for, like, where do I go? And I mean, I wrote that sucker a while ago. I’ve had to go back and fix it, optimize it, monetize it. But that’s doing really well. Another funny thing is, I think my CM client right now, because I asked him, how did he find me? And he said, Google. And that’s amazing. I’ve also had somebody find me through ChatGPT because it asked, like, who are the fractional marketers that I should hire? And my name popped in, that’s because I have a strong online presence, right? And dancing on Tik-Tok. No, just kidding, but yeah, I think that the SEO one is one, if I were telling any freelance business owner or service providers, like, got a couple of core Cornerstone articles up just to demonstrate your authority and, like, thought leadership on it, on a thing or two, like, related to your service? Rob Marsh: This is another thing, everybody listening should go try this. They should go ask chat GPT or clot, or whichever LLM you use, and say, I want to hire a copywriter or a content writer in this niche. Who would you recommend? Don’t, don’t put in your name, but put in your niche, and it’ll be really interesting, what you see. I tested that and was really happy, you know, I said, Hey, if I want to learn about copywriting or creating a copywriting business, who should I go? And it gave me four people that it recommended, one of whom was me. And I was like, Oh, amazing, awesome. We did something right. Now obviously, AI is scanning the Internet all the time, and new content comes up, and in order to keep that current I’m gonna have to continue producing content. But like you’re saying, if somebody’s not doing that on their own blog or, you know, out in the world somewhere where it can get captured, and it may not be getting captured on Facebook or LinkedIn the way that it does on your blog or, you know, in other places. So even if you’re posting there, you should probably copy all of that into your own website as well. Emily Reagan: Yeah, if I, if I had it more together, if I had my marketing assistant doing more, I would definitely rewrite everything for medium. I would do the LinkedIn article game. Like, oh, man, oh, wait, I have a business win. Let me pop over there. Yeah, but let me tell you how I got in Business Insider. So I was stalking out, using my PR skills, my news jacking skills, I was like, stalking out the articles. And I’m like, they’re really playing a heavy SEO game. So this, like, I want you to steal this. They’re playing a heavy SEO game. You know, they’re drowning in content. Like every newspaper editor, magazine editor, and online publication, they need content, right? That’s the name of the game. So I pitched myself based on keywords alone, and said, like, you’re already doing this. This is why this is the next step. This is why your audience needs this. Basically, there were some virtual assistant articles, and I could tell they were old, but I could tell by looking at the slug that it was a keyword game. So I pitched it, and they’re like, great. Can you write it? We’ll pay you $300. Great! I would have done it for free. And it was shameless self-promotion. I was telling my story. They paid me to do it, and I’m like, what good credibility, having my own byline. That made me hot and sweaty. I couldn’t wait to tell my journalism professor. All I did was promote myself. That was the dream there, but that was me just being savvy with, like, okay, PR SEO my own writing over here, and that has helped a lot, too. But obviously, you can play the whole PR game after that and, like, use your as-seen-in feature things. But that was my first big media get, and, yeah, and it was just understanding marketing and then, and I mean, even if you didn’t go on to do more, like being able to leverage Business Insider should be open all kinds of other doors for additional PR, and they did ask me to do more. I was waiting for my divorce to be over, and they’re like, will you write this article? I was like, Sure, let me get a final degree first, and then we can take that to the next level. But yeah, I was paying attention to what kind of articles they are publishing right now. And they are into how people are making money online, like it was a good fit for me, and it can fit for other people too, but going to the right beat reporter, the right editor with the right pitch, it was key. And, you know, and if it didn’t work, I didn’t die. I wasn’t gonna die if I got rejected. Rob Marsh: So okay, this is a really, another really important principle, because this goes across the board. When we’re pitching clients, or whatever it is, rejection is so difficult to deal with. And obviously, if you’ve got tons of clients coming in, you’re not really dealing with rejection, but a lot of copywriters are, and because of that were afraid to take that step forward. Emily Reagan: Yeah, I’m thinking about the pitches I’m getting right now. I get pitched out the wazoo for copy help the cold ones, you know, usually people in Eastern Europe, but they always start their pitch with hope you’re doing well, and then they’re making that, like classic mistake of assuming I’m looking for help instead of just engaging, and they want to immediately offer me an audit, and they’re immediately like, you’re doing your LinkedIn all wrong, and your YouTube sucks, and your Instagram isn’t growing, and it just makes me feel like, S, H, I T, and I don’t want to read, I don’t want to watch, you know? And so I was just thinking that they should feel rejected like they did. They did do it poorly. But you know, if they were coming from a different place, and I was like, hey, like, not right now, I actually don’t need this help right now, maybe it wouldn’t sting so much, but I don’t. Obviously, I don’t even respond. But when I think it’s hard, when you do put a lot of effort into those but if you’re doing it well and you’re not doing making those mistakes like you can’t feel bad if somebody doesn’t need help at that time. Rob Marsh: The other thing that kills me is the pitches without doing any research. So this, in the last week, this is a true story. I’ve had two different pitches from two different people at two different companies, saying, Hey, I love what you’re doing at the copywriter club, we would love to help you launch a podcast. Get your first four episodes up and live and create some social media content around that. And I’m just like, huh, how much do you love what I’m doing? If you don’t realize my number one way of showing up in the world is a podcast that’s been going on now for eight years. Do you even know who I am? Yeah. So my response back to both of them was, hey name, why don’t you Google The Copywriter Club and then get back to me? And of course, they don’t ever get back to me. If you’re going to pitch, at least know something about the company you’re pitching, the person you’re pitching. Like you said, don’t assume anything. Don’t assume they need help, that you like you’re trying to establish a relationship, a friendship, even, and that pays off six months from now or a year from now. And if you’re looking for it to pay off on Thursday, you just, you’re not going to hit right? There’s just no way it’s going to work. Or very, very often it’s not going to work. So every once in a while you’ll get lucky and that maybe that one is going to keep you going, you know, with this crazy pitch style, but most of the time it doesn’t work. Emily Reagan: Oh my gosh, yeah, I have heard that. Like, the work we do now affects our freelance business three months from now. Think Brittany McBean told me that. But I’m like, Yeah, I see that. Like, I went into a little bit of a closet in July in my business, and then, like, I paid the price because I wasn’t doing X, Y, Z. I think about those pitches, I think what people do wrong is assume that I need the work. I get a lot, by the way, for people who are like, I’m a virtual assistant, I’ll come work for you. I’m like, if I am going to hire anyone, it’s going to be someone from my program, 100% but if we just looked at that person that were want to work with, like, as a friend, as a connection. I’m well connected. I would probably refer you, like, 10,000 times more than I actually need copywriting help her right now. And so I think, but they, I think they just get the big, like, saucer eyes and think, like, oh, you know, she’s just gonna hire me. And like, she’s, she’s my sucker. And they’re not really thinking about it as like a network expand, expansion moment. Rob Marsh: Yeah, for sure. Networks are everything. Relationships are everything, and especially when you’re not showing up in the office or you don’t, you’re not connecting with people in real life, like you have to be doing this offline. Emily Reagan: Yeah, for sure. I feel like we should talk about, I don’t know. I’m kind of bouncing backward, but something I am seeing in the online space is a lot of like launch agencies who offered the big ticket, 30k 50k projects, like not doing as well right now. And so I was just thinking about, well, if I were new and I was trying to get copy clients, I think, Oh, what am I trying to say here? I would just start with some of those projects that are smaller, that you can get a quick win and maybe impress them and kind of let go of the ego. Like, that’s got to be really hard if you’ve been in charge of these, you know, big website overhauls and sales pages and whatnot. But like, it can be really advantageous to go in in a different capacity and help somebody for that connection. And I see that all the time with, like, our email tech specialist, they’re like, I only do VIP days. And like, how many of us actually know? Like, I need a VIP day to fix my Active Campaign. So I have to have had to coach people in my group, like maybe for this well-connected client who just needs someone for three hours to do XYZ, you kind of acquiesce a little bit and offer a package that fits her knees. Guess who’s getting all the referrals. Now I’m thinking of Janelle in my workgroup. Janelle because she went in and helped somebody while connected, do something small. And so I’m thinking about those outreaches. Maybe they should be something a little smaller, a little more tangible, less daunting, so we can build that trust. Rob Marsh: Yeah, getting the first win, and then being able to leverage that, I think, is is, especially if you’re starting out, you you have to do that. You have to get that first win. And yeah, leading with a big project or leading with big promises and nothing to back it up is a great way to get ignored. Emily Reagan: What do you tell your copywriters when they’re working for big names and they’re not allowed to tell anybody? Because to me, the second I hear like, oh, Sally was in Jordan Gill’s business, and she. Helped her make millions. I’m like, I want to hire Sally, but like, how do we do that as copywriters? Rob Marsh: So there are two things. One that I would say is, you can talk about any case study or any client anonymously. So you know, you can always say, Hey, there’s this expert in this space. Some people will get it who it is, but most people won’t, right? But also, when you’re talking to somebody one one-on-one, I think in that situation, it’s okay to say, hey, look, I will tell you who the client is, but I’m, you know, I’ve agreed not to talk about them publicly or whatever, so you can’t share that. So the clients know one on one, it’s like, oh, yeah, I did help someone at that level, you know, make that that big thing. It’s, it’s funny. I think it was the second TCC IRL that we did. We were in Brooklyn, and Ramit Sethi came to the party. And I’m like, this is awesome. I’ve watched what he’s done for a long time. He wasn’t part of our event, and he certainly wasn’t there to endorse us, but he had friends there, and we’re just like, yeah, come and I asked him if I could get a picture with him, and he’s like, yeah, no problem. But you have to promise me you’re not going to use that, you know, like to say you’ve worked for me. Like, I’m like, I’m not going to, you know, I’m, this is totally ethical. I just want a picture with this guy that I’ve really admired or whatever. I’ve never used that picture anywhere. It’s still sitting on my hard drive. It’s that stuff. You have to honor your word to people. But there are times when you can talk about things that are, you know, maybe shouldn’t be disclosed, you know, publicly, or that kind of a thing. So I would just say, be, be super careful about it. Obviously, if you tell somebody that you’re not gonna, you know, publicize it, don’t. On the other hand, I would put in your contract and only take it out if they insist the right to talk about the project, work that you do in your own marketing. Like, that’s just should be part of all of our standard contracts. It’s like, Hey, you have all the rights of the work. Everything that I deliver is yours, entirely yours, but I reserve the right to talk about the creation process, you know, the thinking that I did, even the deliverables that I delivered. And if they say they want me to do that, and honestly, okay, I’ll do that, but that’s in that’s in my contract. And I because I want to be able to talk about how I help people, how I solve their problems. Emily Reagan:  That makes me want to hire anyone. It’s that social proof that testimonial. I’ve done this work for so and so, and the selling is like 90% done for me. When I hear that from a copywriter. Rob Marsh: We’re almost out of time. Emily, but where do you where do you see your business going in the future? This is what’s next for you, is really the question? Emily Reagan:  You know, sometimes I’m like, Wait, am I just competing with Upwork? I’m like, no, no, I’m different, like having an existential crisis. There. I am really putting a lot of my effort into my membership, because that’s where I’m having the most fun and enjoyment and just trying to be more aligned. I think for the last eight years, I’ve really been just like grinding and hustling, like I kind of talked about my divorce. I could see it coming, and I knew I needed to get some ducks in a row to be able to feed my babies, and I knew I couldn’t count on the military paycheck. So I’ve been really hustling, and in that season of, probably burnout, just to be honest, like, I think I’m too, like, numb to like, admit I was probably in burnout, but I’m just trying to be really smart about that. I am trying not to do all of the things. And so I think, though, I think my membership is really what I’m focusing on this year, and just helping them up level and their own businesses. A lot of us service providers are introverts. We don’t sell well, we don’t put ourselves out there. We don’t do the visibility we need to. So I’ve been doing some things under the surface to help them with an assessment and what to focus on, and accountability, and pushing my $47 membership to be something more higher end. So I’m in that transition right now and then figuring out, how can I not live launch and still make money? Because that was exhausting last year, going through a divorce and trying to launch a course and pay for the operating expenses of my business. Now, I’m probably telling you too much right now, but I think it’s kind of insightful, because we all go through these evolutions of like, what, what’s our actual capacity? What do we love doing? And where is the money just kind of flowing, right? So I am about to rebrand my podcast. I think my new cover title will come out next week, and really leaning into the marketing freelancer, I have a top 1.5% podcast, which is crazy. That’s awesome. Yours probably is too. But it’s such like a niche audience, it feels really good, because sometimes we’re like, Oh, I’ll never be that or that. And it’s actually doing really well. So really like leaning boldly into. To this little area I’ve carved out. I mean, it started as a VA, and then I said unicorn VA, and then I said marketing assistant. And so now we’re in that next evolution of the marketing freelancer. Rob Marsh: If somebody wants to connect to you, get on your list. Where should they go? Emily Reagan: Yes, I have a couple of things. One, find my podcast, or you can connect with me on Instagram, and it’s Emily Reagan PR to that in the show notes, as always, thank you. I added PR because in the beginning, I started with PR services, and Emily Reagan was taken and I’ve just, like, left it and not cared about it. But honestly, if anyone’s listening to this and they’re interested in hiring a marketing assistant, referring a marketing assistant to their client. The best way to help me is to go to hireaunicorn.com. Share that. This a way for me to take a job and share it with my community and help a lot of email tech specialists, marketing assistants, and marketing managers get work, and that is really what lights me up. Like helping people make money online on their own terms, using their skills, getting paid. Rob Marsh: Thanks, Emily for sharing so much about expanding our influence as copywriters into other marketing services. Be sure to check her out at Emily Reagan pr.com she’s Emily Reagan PR on Instagram as well, and I’ve included links in the show notes to her podcast, so that you can click through and hear my episode on her show, which should be available in the next couple of weeks. At one point during the interview, we were talking about how to differentiate from the millions of other copywriters and content writers out there. Specifically, I mentioned that your unique combination of skills, experience, deliverables, industry, clients, pricing, and voice is a big part of how you stand out and how you become the number one person who does the thing that you do. I call this your X Factor. Putting all of that together can be a bit of a challenge, so I’ve put together a couple of resources to help you do it. If you go to the copywriter club.com, forward, slash authority, you’ll find a short workshop that steps through how you create your own authority so potential clients can trust you and hire you. That workshop is free. When you visit the page, you’ll also have the opportunity to add on bonus bundle of additional workshops that will help you through the process of figuring out your X Factor and how to share it with the world. That bundle is just $17, and it will help you determine where to show up and the audience that wants to hear what you have to offer. Before today, these workshops were only available to members who paid $1,000 a month to join the copywriter think tank, but you get them for just $17 today, and because no one really needs another workshop to watch even at two times speed, 2x speed, I’ve created a playbook for the authority bonus bundle that walks you through the strategies in the workshop, step by step, so you can apply them in your business immediately. It may be the best value that we’ve ever offered. Be sure to check out thecopywriterclub.com/authority and then get the bonus bundle. And, of course, all of those resources are also available inside The Copywriter Underground, along with templates, the legal contract, and more than 70 other workshops and playbooks, monthly coaching. You get all of that at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.  

Allison Evelyn, a talented ghostwriter and copywriter, shares her journey from traditional projects to ghostwriting for business leaders. She dives into the vast opportunities beyond books, highlighting the importance of capturing authentic voices and personal storytelling. Allison discusses the shift from short-form writing to longer projects, emphasizing collaboration and deeper connections. She also touches on embracing one's own voice as a ghostwriter and the supportive role of AI in storytelling. Tune in for inspiring insights and practical advice!

A lot of copywriters want to expand their businesses beyond client work. But what does it take to do that? How do you come up with a new offer? And how  do you test whether your audience actually wants it? Ross O’Lochlainn is my guest for the 439th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. He shares what it takes to come up with and validate a new offer. We also talked about how he found his first clients (and idea that works today) and how A.I. is affecting marketing and a lot more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: Ross’ Website The Client Studio How to Write Like a MoFo 10 Energizing Hook Frames The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  How do you go from copywriter or content writer to problem solver and irresistible offer maker for your clients? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. A lot of copywriters jump into client work with both feet, they find some success and create a business that makes money, but also find that it takes a lot of time they may have been hoping to use for non-work activities. Spending time with family. Having lunch with a friend. Or taking in a movie in the middle of the day. Serving clients is time-intensive whether you’re doing research, writing copy, managing the client relationship, or looking for and pitching your next client. And of course, there’s the bookkeeping and marketing and the other basic office stuff that takes up time. It’s pretty common that copywriters tell me they want to change up their business a bit so they have more time for the personal things they want to fit into their days. But the constant stream of client work makes it hard to fit in the other options like products for your niche or templatized services ready to buy off the shelf and easy to fulfill on. And once you have an offer you want to make… how do you test whether it will work with your audience? How do you find the problems you can solve or the gains your potential clients want to get? On this episode you’re going to hear about a process that can help with that validation and how you identify not just the problem, but the kind of client you want to work with on these non-copy products. My guest for this week is Ross O’Lochlainn. I met Ross a few years ago when he came to our Copywriter Club in Real Life Event in Brooklyn. Since then, Ross has built a pretty unique business where he works a few hours a day helping his clients solve big problems. Then he spends his free time training in Brazilian Ju Jitsu and spending time with his wife. Ross is a copywriter but he does far more than just write copy. He’s become an expert in client attraction, moving customers into high-paid coaching opportunities and like I said a moment ago, solving big marketing problems. From the outside, it appears to be a great business model, so I wanted to see how Ross built that business and what we can learn from his approach. As we talked Ross also shared the idea that having a product is not enough. Having a lead magnet is not enough. There’s some alchemy to making the elements work together to generate a “lead with intent”. The intent here makes a ton of difference. Finding “perfect fit” prospects to join your email isn’t easy. And Ross shares how he does it. Oh, and we talk about A.I. in this one too. You’ll want to listen to this episode right up to the closing credits. It’s a good one. As usual, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. This episode is all about creating a business that works for you and provides you with the time you need for the life you want to live. And The Underground is packed with resources to help you gain confidence and help your clients solve big problems like Ross does. From templates to get you started (including a legal document and a proven onboarding process) to workshops to help you build your authority, attract clients, create products and services your clients want to buy and more—The Underground is like a starter-kit for your business… or a complete business-in-a-box that you can almost plug and play. As questions come up, you also have access to monthly group coaching and regular feedback on your copy. I’ve been inside a lot of memberships, and The Underground is the best value for content writers and copywriters I’ve ever seen. You can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu Ross, welcome to the podcast. It’s been a while since we talked in person. It was 2019, one of our live events. Catch me up on what’s going on and and how did you become—you’re so many things. I mean, copywriter, coach, mentor for so many. How did you get here? Ross O’Lochlainn:  Yeah, it has been a while. We were just chatting about that before we hit record. um There was obviously a whole global disruption in between the live events that I haven’t really gone back to live events and since. Part of that is the last while here has been kind of building out my own little world of conversion engineering and just like growing our coaching program and helping folks, you know, want to grow their online, online businesses. That’s kind of the destination of kind of where we’re at. As you said, part of that is, you know, helping my clients who are in the education and coaching space. And like I had them with, how would you describe it? Like it’s part creative director, part conversion consultant, part coach, it’s very much, hey, here’s a system that works. Obviously, you have to show up and be yourself for your marketing to resonate with the right people, right? Like you have to be your authentic self. No system, I think, is perfectly like a paint inside the colors blueprint. So how do we take the principles of what we know is going to work, from all the data I’ve seen with my clients over the years being like a director of marketing and and CMO for people, like there’s clearly certain ways to offer coaching and programs and courses that work and other ways that don’t. So how do we make that work for you? And with anyone that’s offering those sorts of services, there is kind of a, well, what’s the system and then how do I make it my own? and I think that’s really the magic that we kind of look to add for folks. And how I ended up here is quite interestingly, I would say the exact process that I help people through right now. Right. Like you’ve all kind of got your own unique experience and strengths and skills and whatnot. And my story is—I used to be an engineer. I come from a long family of engineers and I kind of ended up in engineering because I have a math brain. I enjoyed physics and chemistry. And when I was in secondary school—high school in the States—and you know the career counselors kind of just, oh, you’re good at that? Well, you should be an engineer because that’s the minimized risk option where you’ll definitely have career prospects. And I kind of ended up in engineering just by default. Like my dad’s an engineer, of uncles and cousins. I then got a job at Intel and it was very obvious to me that I was not happy in a very corporate structured engineering environment, which with retrospect was very… um obvious because growing up I was also an artist. I was the guy who was hanging out with the the artists and the musicians and I used to draw and I loved like painting and but graphic design and and and all of the visual elements of that and and and writing for I would say writing sake like telling stories like the art side of things was always very meaningful to me and engineering had had none of that and and so i i was firmly in the world of not doing any business or marketing of any of that sort until i bumped into Ramit Sethi and Tim Ferris actually and they kind of back in and what was it 2010 2011 they were like running the game and everyone was talking about them and and whatnot. And they opened my eyes to the world of online marketing, digital marketing, what it could be. Then because I was a writer, even though I didn’t identify as a writer, I had the ability, clearly, because when I was in engineering classes, I was not the guy that was showing up to do extra hours in the lab. I was the guy that would barely show up to the lab. But then when it was a crew project and it was time to write the report, I would see what the guys had written. was like, God, engineers of the worst. Let me rewrite that, guys. And I would contribute in that sense. I knew I could write. And then I learned that copywriting was earning money online with words, it was such a rabbit hole. And then a massive, I would say, and negative limiting belief journey of well, can I be a marketer? I didn’t go to university to be a marketer and all that kind of career transition, mental junk you go through when you’re first getting into freelancing. And then the wide world of copywriting opened up and I started to gradually see over time that my unique ability is partly the engineer’s brain, right? Like seeing the big picture and, and the systems and how it works, but also understanding like humans and psychology and how people feel and talking to them and then writing and and including like, you know, expression of what you think is resonant and meaningful to others in order to get them to take action. And that’s that’s kind of, you can see the picture clearly, right? Like when you look back, but you know, where we kind of ended up was finding the path between what I definitely didn’t want. And then what I did want, and then bumbling into all manner of, I would say, obstacles and, you know, little moments that I also didn’t want, like getting into the launch game. Like everyone kind of fetishizes the launch game in the copywriting space until you’re in it. And then you’re like, screw this. This is exhausting. Right. And realizing that’s not what I want. yeah. so yeah so that’s kind of the the the shorthand version of my entire life story and how we ended up with like being the part creative director system designer and then helping people kind of implement it and and make it their own one as they figure out their own Rob Marsh: I love that you mentioned the dealing with the head trash around, you know, as you’re getting started out, how do you how do you be credible? How do you even know that you’re capable? And, you know, working through that, that’s something I think a lot of us struggle, even beyond the first couple of clients, you know, or as we switch niches sometimes, or as we add products, or we move on from one thing to the next, like it it feels like there’s a whole new set of head trash that we’ve got to get through that. Talk to me a little bit about how that went for you and how do you overcome that? Or what’s that process for working through those negative feedback things that keep us from moving forward? Ross O’Lochlainn: It’s a really good question. I’m a big fan of Dan Sullivan. and I will share one of his ideas, which I now use as like my default way to think through this, which I didn’t have for many years, but which I now use as a really good guide because I look at all the capabilities I’ve built over time and it all followed this pattern. And the idea is what he calls the four Cs. What he describes is entrepreneurs or anyone who’s trying to grow and develop, like what they all want is confidence. Like I want to feel confident that I can go do that thing. And what that really means is risk has been minimized. I can go do that and not feel exposed that I’m going to be paying some massive consequence socially, financially, emotionally…. that if it goes wrong, I’m screwed, right? Like that’s like none of us wants to feel insecure and not confident when we do a thing, but you can’t start at confidence, unfortunately, right? You have to go through that. That’s the fourth C in a series because to be confident, you have to have a capability, right? But you can’t, you don’t start with a capability, right?  That means you need to put yourself in a situation where you don’t have the capability and you’re trying to build it. And that requires courage, which is the third C. And then even then, courage is hard to muster because it’s easy to not do the scary thing. And so it all starts with a commitment. So you have to start with the commitment that I will build this capability and then you can make that commitment to yourself or publicly. ah And then from that commitment, you’ll draw the courage, which will put yourself in situations in order to to say, I am going to suck at this. There’s no two ways about it. There’s no way you can build a capability without being incapable. Like it is by definition what is required. And It’s only after you’ve got the capability that you can be confident and then do it repeatedly. And so what I now do is I push myself at least once a year to say, well, what is the capability that I don’t have that I’m going to make a commitment to myself and others that I am going to go and acquire? Because I feel like if you’re able to take yourself through that process, it builds a different type of confidence. and that confidence is in your general capability. Now I have such a marketing capability and that’s not me like blowing smoke and trying to pump my own ego, but because I have developed such a core skillset, like if there’s something I can’t do in marketing, I’m very confident I would be able to figure it out because I have all these adjacent skills that I can just go, So how do YouTube ads work? Why do I know about ads that I can just retool to find the principles of how the nuance over here works? Which would be very different to me building a capability in skiing where I have no reference experience. Rob Marsh:  Great. Ross O’Lochlainn: You know what I mean? But I think at the macro level, if you look at your history of how you have managed to build capabilities over time, like most of us have a very strong track record of taking something on and being able to figure it out and then go do the thing. And I think it just comes back to what is the commitment you’re making to yourself and do you want it enough? Because if you want it enough, then working through the fear with some courage is not an option. You have to do it, right? When I made this wish to be freelancing, I lost my job and my employment. And I was like, okay, well, I guess I have to make it work now. Right? Like there’s no going back. I was in Canada at the time and I lost my working visa and I was like, okay, well, I literally cannot get a job in this country. I can’t be employed by anyone here. So I guess I’m going to have to figure out a way to make money with freelancing and charge clients in the States or Ireland or whatever. Right? And if Immigration Canada is listening, that’s totally a story for marketing reasons. But point being, once there’s a commitment made that there’s no going back, then it’s just about acknowledging that you are going to bump into beliefs and fears and all sorts of negative self-talk, which are useful from a risk management perspective, but not useful from a big picture winning perspective. You know what I mean? Risks are there to be aware of and to be managed. I don’t think it’s useful to see risk and then not move forward. Like fear should be a signpost to act cautiously, not to turn around and go the other way. You know what I mean? Rob Marsh: Yeah. So working through that, how did you find your first client? Very first client. Well, what did that look like? Ross O’Lochlainn: Oh yeah. Yeah. So I got my first client through Ramit Sethi’s Earn 1K program. And I, at the time, had started to learn some marketing, some Google ads at my company that I was working for, convinced them to buy me at Perry Marshall’s course, Perry Marshall Google ads course. And then I had a client, my cousin actually, here locally in Montreal. He was running a residential electrician company. And I knew he was running Google ads. And I was like, Hey man, I think I could, I learned some of these cool, like tactical strategic tips from this crazy dude, Perry Marshall. Like, can I apply them for you? I’ll only charge you $20 an hour. And he’s like, sure. And I did like five hours of work for him and I got a hundred bucks. And that was just mind blowing to me that I was able to charge for money on the side while working a full-time job because I had never done any official freelancing like that. Thinking back, I had done odd jobs as a kid, like you know clearing gardens and newspaper deliveries, but I had never done something like, what is a skill that I have that I can identify and sell to someone else and package? And that was my first client. And then very quickly, I found another two or three people because I did a good job with him. He says, you know anyone else that needs Google Ads? And got a few more jobs, but yeah, just remembering that, and that was the first freelance client I got for sure. Rob Marsh:  And that’s a little different from where you’re at today. What does your business look like today? Obviously, you’re not doing Google ads. Well, maybe you are doing some Google ads for your own business, but you’re not doing it for clients anymore. What does it look like? Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah, we do have clients that run Google Ads. I’m not the one doing it for them. So yeah, I kind of moved from a done-for-you services um approach, and then I kind of evolved into copywriting, not just Google Ads, but then I copywrite and offer and USP design. And then I did a full-on done-for-you service for a number of clients who are just paid on results. And that was awesome. But that was very much an agency model that I really didn’t like. But I did figure out a system that I found to be very effective with how to sell online courses and coaching programs without the launch model. And then I started my own coaching program, which is very much a done-with-you service. It’s not a… Hey, here’s the course and go do it. And it’s not like a mastermind where it’s a bunch of talking. It’s more, come on in. Ross would be your creative strategic director. Help you figure out what your growth project is. Give you the strategy. And then you’re going to collaborate on the messaging, the execution, like campaign design, the ad funnels, like all that stuff. And it’s very much done in a and a group format with calls and a community kind of forum access. And then some hybrid kind of one-to-one where I meet with clients like every six to eight weeks and we figure out what the next project is. And then they go and ship that and we kind of do the execution in a group format where other people in the group can also kind of peer over their shoulder and give them input and they can do the same. And yeah, folks come in and they work like for a year, a year or year or more. We have clients that are worth it now for like three or four years and they’re continuing. But it is very much, here’s a job, go and do it. And then we’ll interpret the data, see what the next marketing growth project is. And we just like to repeat that cycle over and over so they can hit the growth goals that they’re looking for. Rob Marsh:  And you’re obviously charging more than $100 for the project. Ross O’Lochlainn: Yes, yes, yes. So yeah, the fees we charge for the year, like and it ranges on the level of program and the type of client. and But like it’s anywhere from in our low-level program, people will pay like five grand a year up to a higher-level program, which is like 18, 20 grand for the year. And then there’s private clients who want a little more access, and then they’re obviously going to pay more than that is again. But it is very much in that kind of ballpark of… Yeah, working with us for a year and it being around 18, 20 grand for the most part. Rob Marsh:  So you do some pretty interesting things, I think, to get people into your wheelhouse. Before we started recording, I was telling you how much I admired the Black Friday special that you ran this last year where you were offering like five different programs for $200. And I was hovering over the buy button about 10 different times, messing with your page analytics as I kept pulling it up and reading through it. But you know obviously you’re doing you’ve got these kinds of programs as well at that entry level. I think some of them, How to Write Like a Mofo, Creative Studio, tell us about some of these programs. Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah. So I, I run a model that I’ve kind of developed for myself and and looked, like I’ve been in a lot of coaching programs, other people’s coaching programs. I’d been in like strategic coaches. I mentioned with Dan Sullivan, I found a way that I like to do things. and I call it the creative mofo model. Creative mofo being a creative motherf***er. Motherf***er not in the crude sense, but in the formidable, remarkable, like he’s a bad mofo, right? He is. He makes some creative stuff. Like that’s the kind of aspirational outcome that I want for myself, but also from other people, right? Like it’s very much like he’s got something to say and like he’s got a way of doing things. And I find you can do that when you overlap your, I would say, artistic expression with your commercial production, right? like you It’s not just about slinging products. It’s about like, what is your, what have you got to say about this? I don’t mean art in the sense of, like pretty pictures. It’s more in the sense of like what’s real and meaningful and resonant about your profession and how you do things and what is the emotional reality and think if you can tie that into your work, it just instantly gives it a unique selling proposition. And most of the clients I work with, they don’t have that. And that’s often the reason why their stuff isn’t and is it working as well as they would like. All of the products you mentioned are all born in what I call the client studio, where I am the creator for my own business. I look at my clients almost as a studio. They are the environment in which I’m going to create and they’re giving me the raw materials like their obstacles and their problems through which I create. These are my paints and my canvas. So I’m very much looking at like, well, what do they need? And then how do I use that as inspiration to create things the way I want to create them? And so, how to write like a mofo was born out of the observation that a lot of my clients had big email lists, but they were not mailing regularly. And for me, like, the more you mail, the more you make, right? Like it’s an irrefutable law of marketing that the higher the email frequency, there’s just all sorts of downstream revenue and profile and branding benefits, but they were avoiding it because of reasons. And so I was like, I’m going to solve this problem, right? And it was less about like, how do you write and I don’t know how to write an email. How do you write a good copy email? like It was far more about their relationship with the creative process. right like They were judging themselves or they didn’t have a good enough ideas to write about they’re writing about stuff that they’re not energized by. And like I have a process and a system for the creative process through a lot of my experience with music production and also free writing and my time at Intel, actually, funnily enough. And I was like, I’m going to teach this system. And I created it for them. But the success of it, it also then led to a very obviously successful front end product where I could just sell that training. Now, it was created for the people in my coaching program. And so I’m creating it as a training internally. But when you package things correctly, it’s very easy to then turn those individual trainings that are born out of the content curriculum in your coaching program and turn them into front-end products that you can advertise or that you can use to create customers. Like someone like yourself, you’re on my email list, right? You may purchase one thing here or there, and then that starts the cycle of, oh, that was really good. I’ll check out another thing. And then you know six months later, you’re like, you know maybe Ross can help me with this problem I’ve got. I should look at his coaching program, right? And so I don’t sell the courses or the courses you see me sell. I’m less offering those as a means to generate revenue, if that makes sense. like I’m not selling courses to make money. like I’m not going to shake my fist or turn my nose up at the revenue they generate, but they’re very much a means to like… bring people in my audience closer into my world and center so that they want to step into my studio itself, right? And actually work with me and collaborate with me in there because that’s the place that all the solutions and the strategies and the products that you’re seeing are born from. It’s me co-creating that stuff by working in the trenches with my people like week after week and seeing, oh, wow, like they were really interested in how I use workshop tickets to create customers and turn those into products. I should turn that into a training and then sell that externally. Does that make sense? Rob Marsh:  That makes total sense. Yeah. And as you’re talking about it, ah obviously you’ve done a lot around offer development, but this is one part of creating a killer offer. It’s not enough to have a webinar or a workshop. Obviously there’s a lot of other stuff that goes into an offer. So how do you think about offers as you sit down, think ah either this thing that I have would make a good offer or part of a good offer, or I need to create a new offer. What’s your process that you go through for that? Ross O’Lochlainn: This is a really good question. The word offer—so I’m going to dissect what we mean by offer so my answer will make sense. Because you hear a lot like, you have to have one offer. And I’m like, you can’t grow a business with one offer. You can certainly have one primary product and you want to have a good offer for your primary product and you don’t want to have like a gazillion primary products because then you just confuse yourself. But like a lead magnet is an offer. A webinar is an offer. Those are free offers. Or you can do a paid workshop, which is an offer. And so you want to have many offers. But what you don’t want to have is overhead around managing all of these things and not being clear about how you use these how you promote these things in order to achieve your big objectives like my big objective is i’ve got one primary product which is called the chamber and i just want 43 people in it that’s it so everything i’m doing is intended to bring people into the chamber and that’s like when it’s full it’s it’s full we’re at like 30 right now right so the the way I think about it is an offer is a combination of a promise, a product, and a proposition. The promise being like, what do I get out of this? The product being like, well, what is it and how does it work? And then the proposition is like the terms. What’s the deal? Is it free? Is there a guarantee? Do I have to pay? How long is it going to take? the terms of the exchange. And so for most people, what they don’t have is one primary product within the compelling expression of the offer for why they would want to join that. And that’s usually down to the fact that the promise isn’t clear, right? Like, what do I get out of joining your program? and that’s one of the main things I help a lot of people with. And that’s usually about making it concrete and specific. Like if I join this thing, what outcome will I get in what timeframe and in what sense? Like what will and will not happen when I’m in that future state? Like, am I going to have to sell on the phone? Am I going to have to use launches or do I not want that? Will you help me get to 20K a month without using a sales call funnel? Like that’s a clear promise. That’s a clear promise And so once you’ve got the main thing defined, then I’m always looking for, well, what are the smaller offers I can make that are like small things along the way? Like, for example, maybe you want to be more consistent with your writing because you know, if I just wrote more, I would make more money, right? And so what you’re looking for and what you’re thinking about is, man, if I could just get three emails a day, sorry, three emails a week out, like things would be so much better. like that’s ah That’s a great observation for someone who’s helping that type of client to see and say, I can create a mini training on that or a product on that that might be part of my larger program, but where I solve one discrete problem that is part of the overall problem set. Like if you’re If you’re helping a group of clients, it’s often going to be a problem set that you’re solving across time, not just one individual problem. And so I’m always looking for what are my people needing help with? Where are they falling down? And how are they thinking about the problem? And then if I can create a product to solve that, does it generate interest with the other people in my group? Because if I’m solving a problem with you, Rob, for example, and I mentioned it to everyone else in the group and no one is interested in it, like if it’s not even interesting in passing the people in my studio, the chances of it going to be competing to people who are like that outside the studio low. But if there’s interest in it, then I’ll offer it externally to my email list and… If it does a good job of creating customers and then those customers turn into clients, then I know I’ve got a promotional tool in order to generate more interest from my email list or I’ve got something I can advertise, right? Like the big lead magnet that’s been very successful for me is like a template for an offer doc that I help people use to sell without like sales calls and launches. That worked very well on paid traffic, not because I’m some sort of genius who’s like, I’m going to knock this paid traffic funnel out of the park, but because the people in my studio, it’s what I help them with day in and day out. And when I gave this training on how to create these offer docs on my email list, people lapped it up and then a large and large number, well, a large percentage, relatively speaking, and of them came in and wanted to become a client in the program. So that gave me tons of insight to be like, this is an offer I should advertise externally. Like if it’s working to convert people in my audience into customers and clients, the chances of it working to code traffic is much higher. But I think where people fall down is that it’s too much guessing and not enough like observation of what people are already asking for that you can then promote, if that makes sense. Rob Marsh:  Makes total sense. I imagine there may be some people listening thinking, oh, I’d like to do this. I’m going to create my first offer, but I don’t have a group to test it with. Where would you recommend they start sharing that offer to get the feedback that says yes or no, this is a great product? Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah, totally. So how like the client studio model is one that I’ve mentioned. And there’s kind of two parts to it. The first is like a studio is like a space, right? Like it’s the group where you have people and they can hang out. But it’s also a more of an abstract concept where you use your clients as a studio? And so you don’t need a group to start applying the principle of observing a client that you would like to work with or have more of and asking what is the problem that is frustrating them that they would like a solution to, or what is a problem that they would like be excited to solve or a pain they’d be excited to turn into again? And how can I have that one person solve that one thing? I think people in the, when they’re trying to get their first offer out, they kind of look at the, after picture of people who’ve been in the game for a long time and think they need to replicate that. Like, for example, you could look at me and go, oh, he has all these courses and trainings. That’s what I need to create. But they don’t see that all those started with me, even though I have a group, getting on a call with one person and going, so Rob, like you should be writing more emails. Why are you not writing more emails? What’s the obstacles you’re experiencing? And then like co-creating that with one person and getting the process, like working with just simple Google Docs and some instructions. And then taking those Google Docs and going to someone else and say, you have the same problem. Do you want to solve this? So try this. I have this process. Does this work for you? Because all of these offers and whatnot, they’re just productized processes. And then they may be packaged as a course or a video training to get leverage. But at the end of the day, it’s a solution. It’s a solution that someone who wants to solve the problem will find compelling. And you got to just start with ah who’s the person? What’s the problem? Can I solve the problem? And do I have a documented, repeatable process that I could share with someone else so that they could also solve the problem with or without me? And I think that’s the easiest place to start is… asking which clients would I like to replicate or which clients would I like in a group and and starting that process by just engaging with an individual. Rob Marsh:  And then as we do that, we’ve got our offer where you know we know that it’s been tested. We’re putting it out there. We’re even writing the authentic emails that we touched base on. Is that enough to get conversions on autopilot? Or do I need to be thinking through other things, other pieces of marketing or places that I need to be showing up or doing in order for this to become you know the stream of leads that then allows me to make additional offers or move people up funnel, all all of that. Ross O’Lochlainn: How I tend to think about it is I want to know why personally, and for anyone that I think wants to shortcut the route to success, you want to work from the market and offer back, right? So a lot of people want to generate the leads first and then figure out the offer. and that can work, but I think what’s more useful is if you’re figuring out the individual and the offer and just getting that validated and then looking to build the audience around that. If you want what we call automatic conversions, like you, you need to be definitely getting a stream of new leads coming in that you can make the offer to. Now, most of my sales don’t come from my new leads. like we had 18 people join one of our programs like last week. like When you look at when those people joined my email list, like I just sent five emails to my list. I sent them a doc and we had 18 people join. And some of those people were in my world for like a week. They had just opted into an email funnel like seven to 10 days ago. um Some people were on my list for two years, right? And so when they came on my list, I don’t really care. I’m more interested in how many of them buy and are they going to continue to pay me. Like my automatic revenue isn’t coming from new core sales. It’s coming from a recurring revenue within the programs that I’m getting people coming coming into So, if you want people to be buying like ah a training automatically, like yeah you can run a cold traffic funnel and that’s great. But my perception is the big asset is, are you getting emails? Are you getting email addresses that you can nurture over time and make offers to over time so they can buy whenever you’re ready or whenever they’re ready, I should say. And i that comes down to Who are you looking for and what are they interested in so that they are going to have a level of intent to solve the problem that your main offer solves? Right. So if the offer is, for example, I had people write more frequently so they can make more money, like maybe the lead magnet then needs to be, you know, appealing to that psychology of like, how do I sit down and actually build a writing habit? If that’s your primary offer. Oftentimes, people will generate leads, but they don’t because the lead magnet they’re using doesn’t signal intent to solve the problem that you solve in your main program. So having the offer is definitely not going to be enough for automatic conversions. But when I’m thinking about automatic conversions, it’s more, how can I get some sales for my new leads to pay for all the lead gen that I want to do so that I’ve actually got an audience that I can make offers to over time, right? Like that, that’s really the win is having two groups, like your internal client group and a group of people that are kind of in your email following and because then you’ve got the ability to make offers and collect more data. But the mistake I think a lot of people make is generating leads without an intent, if that makes sense. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, totally makes sense. That also has me thinking about then the nurturing process. You know, as you you get all these people on your list, are you thinking about the program the next program that you’re going to be selling? Are you thinking about the things that brought them to the list in the first place? Or are you just waking up thinking, I’ve got to get out an email today and these are the three ideas that I have? Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah, so like the way I think about nurturing, I think about even misinterpreting the concept of nurturing, right? like they think when it comes to nurturing, it’s about getting people who are small fish into your world and then making small offers to them, hoping that they’ll be ready for the big offer. Like I’m not, I think that’s a flawed mistake. I think what you want to be doing is getting perfect fit people for your main program to come into your email list. And then the purpose of what you’re doing with your emails and offers is demonstrating your capability and character so that they see you as someone who can help them now. right like i’m I’m looking for advanced… people who have already in the game of, you know, having a program and whatnot, and they have some emails and an asset, and they’re just looking for a way that works better for them. I’m not looking to get someone who hasn’t got a course or coaching program ever, and then show them how to launch a course and coaching program so that they can then use my main system. It’s too many, it’s too many steps. So that’s the first thing when it comes to it is making sure that the people you’re putting in are the sort your list or the sort of people that will hire you and can hire you or your program or course like today, not they need to transform in order to be buyers. Then once I have that, I’m assuming those people are in my audience, right? And so, of course, my audience is not going to 100% be full of those people. But the reality is 80% of my email list is never going to give me a penny. I’m not trying to speak to everyone on my email list. What I’m doing is I’m looking at the people who are in my studio And I’m looking at what they’re dealing with. And I’m talking about what I’m doing with them. And what I’m offering to my email list are the solutions I’m creating for them, right? Because if I am constantly talking about the context that they’re in and creating solutions for the context that they’re in by definition, it’s going to appeal to the contexts of people who are in that same context outside the paid space, if that makes sense, right? Like if someone is at a million dollars and they’re sick of selling on the phone, as an example, and they’re looking for a way to solve that, and I solve that solution, and then I say, here’s how to get off the phone without dropping your revenue before me below a million dollars, Anyone that’s in my email audience that wants that same thing, like will go, oh my God, that’s perfect. Right. And so like when you were saying like, oh, I saw Ross’s offer, it was so compelling. Like the reason for that is because it’s been created in the forge of working along people like you and it’s addressing the problems that someone like you who’s running a business like you do, face, right? It just seems so tight and relevant that the desire is quite high. But if someone’s like a brand noob, like they’re to look at my stuff and go, ah, this doesn’t really seem what I’m looking for. And that’s and that’s by design. So what I am talking about today is just directly informed by talking about what’s happening inside the studio and the solutions I’m creating for those people. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, definitely makes sense. I want to change the conversation just a little bit. You mentioned the names of several mentors. Dan Sullivan was one, a few of the people you worked with early on, Ramit Sethi and ah others. How do you look at mentorship for yourself? Now, I mean, you’re already, you’re a mentor for other business owners, for copywriters, for offer owners, but how do you sharpen your own skills and choose who to work with next? Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So I think paying for access and help from the people who are already asked where you want to be is just one of the biggest life hacks ever and like Kevin Rogers was a guy I worked with for years. He’s awesome. Through Kevin Rogers, I found Dean Jackson. ah Kevin gave me the advice many years ago. Very relevant for copywriters, right? Would you get into the copywriting game? You’re surrounded by people who are able to make ideas compelling and feel like you’ve got massive FOMO, that you’re not engaging with this idea, right? The issue is that it’s actually quite distracting. And there’s so many different ways of making it work that like if you try to do them all, you kind of end up Frankensteining it. And so he gave me the advice. He’s like, pick one person and make that person your guy. And for Kevin, he chose John Carlton. And if you look at Kevin’s copy and how he speaks and whatnot, very influenced by John and like he doesn’t hide that. He’s obviously got his own very distinct and amazing voice. And so for me, I picked Dean Jackson. Dean Jackson’s my guy. He’s the master at which I am eternally and looking to refine my ideas against. I’ve been to, I don’t know how many of these breakthrough blueprints in Toronto, in Florida—for people who don’t know Dean, he does like a three-day come and I’ll strategize with you across his core philosophy, which is called the A-Profit Activators—and he does like amazing small three-day small room events with like eight to 12 people. And I’ve been to 10 of those in Florida, Toronto, London, and Australia… Where else? There’s probably more, but… I will never stop learning from Dean and Dean will always be like a mentor to me. And I then dimensionalize my understanding of Dean. So another guy that you, if you look at him and and you compare his work to Dean, you can see Dean’s fingerprints all over it is a guy called Taki Moore, who’s huge in the coaching space. And she he’s like 10 years ahead of me. And then Dean is like 10 years ahead of Taki. And as soon as I kind of discovered Tacky’s world and I was moving into the coaching space, I was like, I got to get a guy in this guy’s world. How do I understand Dean’s stuff better through how Taki applies it? And Taki’s got a superpower of being able to take ideas and and and clarify them and simplify them and then make them actionable. And once I got into his world and saw how he did that with Dean’s stuff, it gave me a whole understanding and appreciation of Dean’s philosophies and then how I can modify and take those principles and and and do the same. And so I think going deep on someone that you know is really able to steer you towards the future that you want to go to. I think that Dean calls it the buy and hold strategy, right? Like I will always be in Dean’s world. And similarly, like I’ve been in Strategic Coach for many, many years. Similarly, because Dan Sullivan’s world has had a huge influence on Dean. Dan is Dean’s mentor. And I’m like, well, it’s good enough for Dean, it’s good enough for me. So I spent four years there. I’ll go back. I still use their concepts to this day. And so like, this is very much stuff that you have to feel. I feel like if you’re trying to pick your person, like whose stuff just feels right to you. And that like, you get a sense of like, this is the person who’s clearly a master that i can understand I can spend time with and go deep with because I feel like the breath is important, I would say in developing your skill, but it’s not as important as as depth for my my personal experience and and finding the few people that you can go deep with and then finding different dimensions for that ah is super important. And then looking for other people who resonate with that, like my current coach, I did not discover him through Dean. But looking at how he shows up and the strategies he teaches, they’re very complementary with all the stuff I’ve learned through Dean. And so I’m like, yes, this guy’s exactly where I want to be in five years. i want to spend more time learning what he does and how he makes it work from him so I can absorb and make it my own as well, but also get his guidance and help on on that front. Rob Marsh:  Two things I’m taking away from what you’re saying here. One is this is a very deliberate process and it’s not the kind of thing where you just hop on somebody’s list and you’re all in. Like you’re really thinking about, you’re starting to apply, you’re testing things out as you move into somebody’s world. But the second piece that is really obvious as you start talking about the different ah people that you’ve connected with is the relationships that open up when you get into somebody’s world, whether it’s in their programs or whether it’s other people who are participating or even just, you know, talking about them. Those relationships are pretty critical when it comes to building skills and new things in your business. Ross O’Lochlainn: For sure. Like you could say it’s deliberate. It’s also like the decision to choose Dean was deliberate. I don’t want to say Ross has this perfectly defined mentorship strategy. I’ve never even thought of it right from the perspective until you asked me the question. Buy and hold would be how I articulate it and seeing what I’ve seen. But I think the, the, the, and the Yes, finding the right people is huge. And once you find the right people and you’re clear about what you want, then it becomes more obvious what is and is not the right decision and which person is and is not the right person to engage with. Right. I think that. There’s a difference between this is a good idea and pursuing this is going to get me where I want to go. And I would say the part that I was clear on is like where am I trying to get to and what kind of marketing do I want to do and what beliefs do I have about what it should and should not be done, that I’m very clear on. And then when you’re kind of operating from that frame, then the choices kind of become… more obvious where it’s not like a deliberate map out, but looking back, you can see, oh yeah, that’s why I went through those things. Those were the obvious steps because I was clear later on what I was trying to create, if that makes sense. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Another topic shift, AI. Obviously changing marketing and copywriting in really big ways. I actually had a call with somebody this morning who was ah talking about how scared she was about the future with AI and and even you know recent things that have been happening. How are you looking at AI and using it in your business? Ross O’Lochlainn: I’ve been using AI, and A little before the curve, like obviously you blew up with ChatGPT, right? I had kind of experimented with it. Prior to the explosion of ChatGPT, I was actually using AI much more for like images, like tools like mid-journey. like I was just fascinated that it could create these two like these images. So now it’s just like so standard. So it’s funny how quickly people’s expectations of what’s normal change. But… but the use of AI is something that I have strong opinions about. I think it’s going to only be a massive benefit for most humans. I think there are a lot of negative consequences. from a societal tyrannical AI detection and censorship level. But also I will say, and again, I don’t want to get into a politics discussion. Like what I, what I didn’t have on my bingo card was like AI being used by the Doge crew to go in and analyze massive data sets to reveal whole bunch of like, corruption right like i think the narrative was very much going to be ai would be used to oppress people and then the first major societal shift is looking at to like read through these massive omnibus bills so politicians can’t hide stuff in there like all this hide stuff in volumes of information problem and that was used to hide corruption it’s kind of gone now and so i i have no idea how it’s going to play out in the macro, but I think there’s a lot of fear mongering around it. And what I’ve observed is there’s so many benefits also, right? And so it’s certainly going to be transformational, but like, is it all going to be roses? Like, I don’t think so. Now, my overarching perception on this is that what’s happening now in like thought work and copywriting and and and and creative work is the same thing that happened to automobile manufacturing in the seventies and the sixties, when they started bringing in these robots, right? Like humans have not been replaced from the manufacturing process, but what was clearly illustrated was like the value of a human is not like picking something up and putting it over here and pressing a button. Like a robot can do that way better and way faster and way more efficiently. And I think what people are starting to see in the creative space is that the typing of the words is not actually the value and the creation of the pixels is not actually the value, right? And I think what we’re going to start seeing is very much but what does it mean to be human? And how do you need to use these tools for your own benefit? Personally speaking, I don’t use AI to do my writing, but I use it in my writing. I’m not trying to get AI to write the ad or the page, although occasionally I can, you just write me a paragraph description here for this low value thing I’m giving to my wife backstage in a project plan or whatever. But personally for our marketing, I’ve put a 100% human guarantee on everything that we do. Meaning if you ever see a digital video of me or an image that looks photo realistic, or if you see words from me, that is always going to be me. I’m never going to use AI to create a sock puppet image of myself or a video of myself where it wasn’t actually me there. And if you see the words in an email, like a human wrote those words or at least… Like, you know, there might be a couple of sentences in there that were generated by AI, but the whole thing wasn’t like, write me an email and boom, I send it. Because I feel like we’re going to enter, and we’ve already started to enter a world where people are just not going to be able to trust digital media anymore. And the two principles of all marketing is trustability, right? Like just like your email copy doesn’t matter if your deliverability sucks, your videos and all this other stuff doesn’t matter what the content of it is. If the person doesn’t trust, this is actually a real human trying to communicate with me. And so that’s why I put the 100% human guarantee on it because I’m like, if people start to feel like this is just some robo churned out thing and I’m not stepping into the real world, like they’re going to tune it out. So that’s why I kind of went in that direction. But at the same time, I just started using OpenAZI, the ChatGBT Pro, $200 month version that a new thing called deep research where it spends 20 minutes researching a topic. That thing is incredible. Like I don’t think thought workers can go back to the way it was. What has happened is a thought calculator, like a calculator to help you do thought work has been invented. And just like engineers can never go back to the back chair to calculators, a life without calculators and spreadsheets, like you’re just not going to be able to operate without it at a certain level, but  having worked with a lot of clients, right? I’m also very clear that clients do not want to do the work themselves. They don’t even know what they want. So to think that this is going to be like, the client is not going to have someone to take responsibility of outcomes who can then run the robot is just like, that’s just devoid from the reality of what clients want and operate. So I feel like it’s on everyone to integrate it into your process, But I am emphasizing that you should treat it as a creativity and quality enhancer, not as a cost reduction technology. Like I think I’m in the video game industry, you’re seeing a lot of software companies trying to use AI and generative AI as cost reduction. And it’s just a lot of pushback on it because it’s just leading to shittier quality products. And I think I think what will… Who will succeed will be the individuals who enhance their output and creativity for the benefit of the audience, not the benefit of their pocket, if that makes sense. Rob Marsh: I love your idea of the 100% human created. going to borrow that. I think that one of the real opportunities, i already think it’s emerging now, but ah one of the real opportunities in the world of AI is going to be that humanness and the trust that you’re actually talking to a real person and not to a machine. There’s going to be, I think, additional value added to those kinds of relationships that we haven’t had in the past because, you know, the poor quality discussions, you know, with say a ah call center or whatever, they were still human to human, maybe backed up by scripts or whatever else. That’s no longer the case. And I think that the future is going to be ah ah a big chunk of the future will be written around how we actually have real relationships with real people. Ross O’Lochlainn: Totally. Totally. My human guarantee was born out of the fact that there was a guy that I was following and he was at the bleeding edge of all this stuff. And and and he was expressing and showing how the AI tools work. And he had these videos on his Twitter. And they were like small little one, two minute talking head videos. And I would watch them regularly. And I quite enjoyed them. And then he revealed that for the last six months, that actually hasn’t been me. That’s been ah that’s been an AI. I kind of trained the bot. And then it’s just been doing it And I felt i said like such an idiot. I felt duped. Rob Marsh: Yeah, snookered, right? Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah, and then I haven’t watched one of his videos since. And I was like, holy shit, like that’s how people are going to feel. And then I incorrectly predicted that AI was going to be a huge controversy in the recent political election. And it wasn’t quite used as deceptive as it was because I don’t think it was currently at the quality where it is, it’s not totally indistinguishable. But it was used, there were a couple of political ads where it was like parody and they were using the other person’s voice. But what I also observed was how many people on both sides were making false claims that the other side had generated images. Like you were seeing the Trump crowd going, look, the Kamala crowds are fake. And then you looked into it and they were real. They wanted to project their reality onto it. And when they wanted to discount it as not real, like, and probably a scam, they were very easy to do that. And I think that’s why, like, if I think about what can I trust, like, I will always trust people the the Joe Rogan podcast being published on the verified Joe Rogan podcast channel on Spotify or the or the and the, like if something is published on CNN’s official channel, like I trust that they are putting live reporters on there. So like verified sources, you’re going to be able to assume and trust, yeah, that’s that’s that’s a real world a real world human. But all these cold sources, untrusted sources, like you’re just not going to be able to believe anything. Or do it with a massive grain of salt. Rob Marsh:  Yeah, we already see both sides of so many issues have their own set of facts and it’s so hard to verify what’s real, what’s not. So I think that that’s going to be a huge opportunity. Ross O’Lochlainn: Totally. A hundred percent. And I think what you will also see is you are going to see an emergent technology of AI where, where you will be able to verify that it is not influenced by either political side. And then, you’d be able to like get it to go, hey, can you actually genuinely fact check this for me? Right. Like not one of the political style fact checking, but can you spend 10 minutes just researching multiple sources and come back and report on the biases of this piece? And like, I would never spend the time to do that. Like part of the reason marketers as well get away with like, propaganda and whatnot is because they rely on the sensational headline, but they’ve kind of like tweaked it. And then like the detail is in below, but people don’t spend the time digging through the information because they just, they don’t, they don’t care enough. But when you have a tool like this, that will do the digging and you don’t have to invest the time, I think it will start to reveal the truth of things much more. And I think you’re going to see that play out in politics, but also in marketing, right? I don’t want to be staring too much into politics. I see a big overlap in marketing and politics all the time.  Rob Marsh:  I think there’s a huge opportunity for identifying the truth or the falsity in claims and marketing with AI. Ross O’Lochlainn: Sure. A hundred percent. And so I think what you’ll start to see as we see the second order of this play out, like you’re ah you’re already seeing it now, right? Where like Google ads are slowly going away because we’re all searching in chat GPT, right? And so now how do you get your product found in that environment should you be relying on Google searches? Like I even find myself now asking, GPT, can you find me good, well-reviewed products now that I’ve kind of done my research with you and I kind of know what I’m looking for? like Can you go find products? And so I think what you’re going to start seeing is total transparency from a business perspective. like If you want to be found and… and and Like if people are going to have the robot saying, could you like research Rob’s mastermind for me? Like it’s now upon you to not only have an amazing product, but to make sure that should someone want to research it, that they are deployed their bot in this case, that it’s out there. Rob Marsh: It’s out there. Ross O’Lochlainn: Right. And I think that’s, I think that’s good in some ways. I think privacy and whatnot will take a further hit. But I think for sure you know, the people who are worth working with would be, it’d be much more obvious for sure. Rob Marsh:  Fingers crossed and that it’s that and not the total opposite. where we may still be at a crossroads here. Ross O’Lochlainn:  Yes. Rob Marsh:  Ross, this has been awesome. Just getting a look inside your business and the way that you look at marketing and doing this for your clients. If somebody has been listening and they’re like, okay, I’ve got to know more about Ross. I’ve got to get into his world. I know you’ve got a couple of different things that might appeal to our listeners. right ah yeah the How to write like a mofo, lead refinery, you know a couple of things. Where should people go to get into your world? Ross O’Lochlainn: Yeah. So I’ll send a link through. There’s one tool I think because I know there’s a lot of writers listening to this. If you’re interested—How to Write like a MoFo—I have a tool. A big part of that is like, how do you engage your writing with high energy? Because I find that most of the time people don’t do the writing because it’s a very emotionally painful experience because they’re not energized by the idea that they’re writing about. So I have a tool called 10 Energizing and Entertaining Hook Frames, which is a technique I’ve got for how do you come up with base ideas from your life and then turn those into things that are energizing for you to talk about. I’ll send that link through to you. You can check the show notes for it and Apart from that, if you’re interested in the idea of the client studio, ah you could go to conversionengineering.co/client-studio. And that’ll give you a look there. If you’re looking for opt-in to download and watch a video about it. I will send through a link for that as well. And that will kind of give you a guide about how the model works and a kind of a walkthrough video of it. But those would be the best places to check it out. ah The website is conversionengineering.co, but if you want to, check out how to write like a mofo, check out the hook frame tool, and if you want to check out the client studio, I’ll give a link for that to download the guide and the walkthrough. Rob Marsh:  We’ll have both of them linked in the show notes. I’ve watched that video and it’s a great walkthrough. Like it’s one of the things that’s kind of said, yep, I’ve got to pay more attention to what Ross is doing. So yeah, check that out. If what we’ve been talking about today appeals to you. Thanks again, Ross, for your time. I really appreciate it. I’m looking forward to sharing this with our audience. Ross O’Lochlainn: My pleasure, Rob. Yeah, it was a pleasure. It was a jam. Thank you. Rob Marsh:  Thanks to Ross for explaining how his business works. It’s a model that I think a lot of copywriters could use to work on bigger problems with the clients in their niche—though the kinds of clients you need to attract have to be able to do the work you strategize with them or pay you a high amount to get it done for them. I want to point out that what Ross shared about how he got his first client is a process that still works today… and even if you have worked with a client or two, is worth trying out if you’re struggling to land your own clients right now. He bought a course and learned a skill then looked for a prospect in his warm network—a friend who needed the help of someone with the skill he was learning. After offering to help his friend, he leveraged that project win into several more clients. Each new client was an opportunity for another win and a new case study or testimonial or referral to leverage to land yet another client. There’s no magic here, just learning, applying skills to solve a problem, then using that to find the next opportunity. If you’ve struggled to find clients recently, this process will almost certainly work for you. You could do this with social media ads, email sequences, webinar creation, and so many other skills that clients need help with. All of these are copy problems, but clients aren’t always looking for copywriters to fix them. They’re looking for ad specialists, or webinar specialists or email specialists. If you position yourself as fixing a problem, it will help you connect with the clients you can help the most. What Ross shared about his mentors rings true with me. Finding a coach or mentor who you resonates with is important. Have they built what you want to build? Have they done the thing you want to do? Have they helped others do what they say they can do? If you answer those questions with a yes and you resonate with the person, then find a way into their world. At first it may be enough to join their email list or listen to their podcast or watch their Youtube channel, but ultimately you should join one of their paid programs—like a membership—so you can interface directly with the mentor you’ve chosen. Show up. Do the work. Finish the course. Ask questions about the content. And let the mentor get to know you as you learn from them. As Ross said, you do this by feel, but in order to feel who you can go deep with, requires showing up and opting in. Of course you can do that with Ross or with dozens of the other experts we’ve had on the podcast. And of course, if you resonate with what you hear on this podcast, you should check out our membership, The Copywriter Underground, where you can build relationships with the other members and me. I’d love to see you inside. Check out thecopywriterclub.com/tcu for more information.

Esai Arasi, a savvy copywriter and agency owner, advocates a minimal approach to social media. He discusses why focusing on genuine relationships can yield better results than frequent posting. By sharing strategies for effective client engagement, he emphasizes understanding client needs and nurturing connections. Esai also highlights the importance of storytelling in fostering engagement and how mentorship plays a vital role in business success, urging listeners to rethink their social media strategies for lasting impact.

Finding a “real” job isn’t easy. But more copywriters and content writers are interested in trying. In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Copy Chief Matt Snyder who has hired lots of copywriters over the past couple of years. He shared the mistakes copywriters are making and what it takes to get the attention of a hiring manager. Even if you don’t want a “real” job, what Matt shares in this episode will help you connect with high-paying clients and land more work. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Matt’s newsletter Matt’s LinkedIn The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Want to land a real job as a copywriter or content writer? It’s not easy. But help is on the way. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. Most of the listeners to this podcast are freelancers or contract writers. If you’re like them, you generally work on projects or retainers for a variety of clients. And you’re good at it. But some writers crave the stability that comes with a regular job—either part-time or full-time—with an actual employer paying wages and maybe even providing benefits. A handful of freelancers I’ve worked with over the years have dipped their toes into the corporate world to work primarily for a single client, or for those who are looking for part-time jobs, have landed work that provides some security and regular income to go along with the unpredictabilty of freelancing.  But finding those jobs isn’t easy. They’re out there for sure, but within hours of a copywriting or content writing job posting on LinkedIn or any other job board, the hiring managers receive hundreds of applications. Getting found in that slush pile isn’t easy—even for the very best writers. Recently in The Copywriter Underground, I invited a friend of mine who worked for decades as a job placement specialist for creatives, to share her best advice for copywriters looking for “real” jobs. That training is inside The Underground now. When I announced we would be hosting that training, another copywriter, Matt Snyder, reached out to offer his advice. Matt is the Head Copywriter at a digital agency and works with a team of five or six writers. He hires a lot. And he sees a ton of applications, resumés and other creative attempts to get his attention. So when he offered, I suggested we record our discussion and share it here on the podcast. That’s what this episode is. Now, I know I said this is about getting hired to real job with a company. But everything Matt shares is applicable to getting hired by freelance clients as well. I think every copywriter, every content writer, and every freelancer writer who listens to this episode will get a lot from what Matt has to say. So stay tuned. As usual, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. We’re talking about getting work today, so I should probably mention the resources available in The Underground that will help you do that. Starting with the workshop with my friend, Jessica, the placement specialist. Her advice will make a difference if you’re applying for what we tend to refer to as “real” jobs. We also have workshops from experts like Laura Belgray who shares how you can stop waiting in line and “duck under” the velvet ropes holding you back. And Parris Lampropoulos who shared the exact pitch he used to get his first five clients, then how he went on to double his income every year for the next five years—do the math, that’s a lot. There’s also our in-house training about ways to find clients and an entire course on sales. Plus dozens of other workshops, templates, copy critiques, monthly coaching, and more. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Matt Snyder… Matt, Welcome to the podcast. I was checking our back episodes because I swear we’ve had you on the podcast before and turns out we haven’t. So we should have probably had you before, but I’m glad that we’ve waited because what we’re going to talk about today kind of came out of a lot of things that have happened since the last time you and I were even on a call together. So this should be pretty good. But let’s start with your story. How did you even become a copywriter? Matt Snyder: Um, great question. Uh, I feel like I’ve lived many lives, so it’s kind of hard to turn it down. But, um, I, I always like to say my love affair with writing online or publishing anything online started with a Zynga account, like way back. Rob Marsh: That’s a long time ago. Matt Snyder: Yeah. Way back in like 2003. So, Um, like right when I got into college, I was like, I’m real. I, I kind of was dabbling into journaling and I thought that this online medium was going to be kind of cool. Um, so that was like, I think blog spot was maybe starting. And so I just started publishing stuff on Zynga and it was ridiculous. I don’t even bother looking cause I don’t even remember what my account was or anything. Um, it was, it was ridiculous, but I just, I feel like a lot of trial and error started there, but that’s kind of when I realized that like, I was, I kind of had a knack for writing. And then, um, a lot of my professors in school were like, Hey, you’re pretty good at writing. And I was like, great, but I didn’t want to go that route. Uh, I was like, I’m gonna go into ministry. That’s why I went to school for undergrad, um, left. And, uh, decided that, you know, I wanted to do mission work, didn’t know where I want to go. So I kind of did this, this, uh, year long mission trip adventure thing. And they gave everybody a blog, uh, posts or like a blog to, to document their journey on or whatever, and their thoughts. And so I did that and, uh, it kind of took off. And even the, the organization was like, Hey, you’re, you’re pretty good at this. So when you come back, do you want to work for us? and kind of help us market the programs. And I was like, sure. So that’s what I did. When I got back, I mean, it was great because when I was away, that’s when the market collapsed in 2008. And so I got back and I kind of had a weird job. But I’m a self-taught marketer and that’s kind of what I did. I just read every book, talked to everybody I could, and it was just trial and error. And so I kind of fell in love with marketing that way. Did a lot of blog writing, content writing. Um, and yeah, just learning in and out of, uh, stuff for nonprofits, but then on the side, I started freelancing and I was like, I think I’m going to help other people do the same thing. And so I did content writing, uh, SEO development stuff, started writing for websites, mostly nonprofits, um, dabbled in and out over the years. I’ve been traveling a lot. And then, uh, lived a life, got married, had, you know, a lot of stuff. And then I got a job at a church, this was after grad school, got a job at a church as a communications director. And all that was great. I thought I wanted to go back into church ministry. I’d been out for a while. I ended up being like, I got to get out of this. It just wasn’t, it wasn’t for me. Um, nothing against that environment or that world for anybody, but, uh, I started freelancing on the side full-time and then, uh, or mostly full-time and kind of pivoted into the freelance email marketing. Got into that world. I got connected with y’all at The Copywriter Club. Um, I joined The Accelerator program. Because I was like, I’m going to take my business seriously. And it really helped me take off, which is great. So yeah, I really pivoted hard into copyright. I can tell you the, not the date exactly, but I can tell you exactly where I was when I was like, I’m going to go hard into copyrighting full time. Uh, my wife and I took a trip to Tulum. I think this was like in 2006, 2016, 2017, something like that. And I was sitting on a rooftop of this place we were staying in Tulum overlooking the jungle. And I was journaling. I was like, I really want to pursue copywriting full time and talk to my wife about it. And she was just like, sounds great. Go for it. So. No, we didn’t have kids. We had a dog. We didn’t have a mortgage at that time. So it wasn’t a big deal. And so there was just a lot of freedom to take risks. And I did it. And I mean, I’ve done well myself. So yeah, freelance. Y’all really helped me set me up for success with my freelance business, which I kind of stopped viewing as a freelance business and just as a business. Which is a great mental shift, by the way, for anybody listening. And then I ended up, an agency slid into my DMs one day. Grace Baldwin, who’s an alum of my Accelerator program and Copywriter Club stuff, she connected this person with me and said, Matt might be interested in this job. And so my DMs got on call with them. It was the end of 2021, I think. And it’s that time of year, it’s Q4, business slows down and it’s like, you kind of get bored. And I was kind of stressed about, you know, will my retainer clients renew for another year kind of thing. Rob Marsh: Right. Matt Snyder: And, uh, I was like, you know what, I’ll give it six months and see, I had, I had to like, what’s supposed to be a 15 minute call with this agency Homestead, uh, studios actually where I work now. And, uh, I was like, that 15 minute call turned into, um, an hour. And then I just really jived with the partners that I was on the call with and I was like, I’ll give it six months. And so we’re over three years later, I’m still there. So it worked out well, I went from being just an email copywriter, writing on you know, six, seven, eight accounts to now I’m the director of copy and oversee the entire copy department across the whole agency. So, uh, it’s, it’s a lot of fun to have a whole team, um, get to really help people grow, not just their craft and their skill, but grow as professionals with people. And it’s, it’s just so much fun. We work with a lot of cool brands and, uh, yeah, I like a lot, but anyway, that’s, that’s kind of how I became a copywriter and how I got to where I am. Rob Marsh: Uh, So we’re definitely going to jump into the agency stuff. But I’d like to go back to, you know, when you went all in on copywriting is about the same time that, you know, you were taking your business more seriously and really figuring stuff out. How did you connect with your first clients? What did that look like? And what were you doing? Because you did okay. Like, I know there was, there was a, it took a little time to get moving. But once it started, like you seem to have some pretty good success. Matt Snyder: Yeah, I think I’m trying to figure out how I got my first clients. My first client client when I was freelancing, like full time was an old college friend. He had he had a cybersecurity business and he needed a content writer. And so at that time, I’ll just say yes to everything. That was kind of like my ethos. Just say yes to everything. I really wanted to do email marketing exclusively, but I was like, I’ll just take anything that comes my way. And so I did. And he connected me with other people. It kind of snowballed from there. I realized that If you do really good work and you’re just dedicated to it and you communicate well, referrals just come in naturally. And so he referred some people to me and then I just headhunted a few others through connections. I was really involved with the nonprofit world, especially here in Atlanta. And so I had some connections there that got me involved. And I got a referral from another, it was just really like my pipeline at first was just word of mouth. Um, I didn’t do much cold pitching. In fact, I had really poor success with cold pitching. Um, and my best, my best, uh, MO was, was word of mouth. And so I ended up, uh, turning one of my former employers into a retainer client, which was a fantastic, uh, face. I highly recommend that Avenue if you can, if you can get away with it. Um, but yeah, I’d say word of mouth is kind of how I really got my pipeline filled up at first and just saying yes to everything. And then it was through that, that I realized email marketing was pretty much my shit life. That was what I was really good at. Um, I could go into accounts, audit them. It was just like second nature to me, figure out what people needed to do, um, to, to be profitable or successful or fundraise, whatever they need to do. Yeah. So. That’s kind of, I don’t know if that answers your question, but yeah. Rob Marsh: No, that answers it perfectly. And then when you got to the agency, to Homestead Studios, you were introduced by a friend. So, you know, again, relationships networking helped facilitate that. But what did you do on that call with the partners? You said you really vibed with them. Like, what’s the secret of that? Matt Snyder: Be yourself. I think this was what was interesting to me about that conversation is. He asked me in the dm. It was just on twitter when it was still twitter, I’m not active on that platform anymore, but it was Jacob. You can go online and figure out who he is. He’s awesome. He DMed me and was like, hey, are you interested in a full-time job with our agency? He said, you’ve been recommended to us by Grace. I can’t remember what it was exactly. And I just said, no, I’m not interested. But because I’m playing hard to get. Yeah, no, I was like, I’m not really that interested. But I said, I will always take a call and make a new connection. I was like, I’m happy to meet with you. And so he’s like, great, let’s do it. And so he’s like, just a 15-minute call. We’ll just take your break. And I was like, great. And so it was supposed to be just me and Jacob. It ended up being me, Jacob, and Kelly, who’s also a partner at the agency. And I didn’t know who she was from Adam. But it ended up just being… I had nothing to lose in that conversation. They came to me And that kind of really put the ball in my court, more than anything, and in my favor. And so I asked them questions about the agency. They asked me questions about my experience. I hadn’t sent them a portfolio or anything. I didn’t apply for anything. So he’s like, do you have any copy that we can just look at? And I was like, well, I know I did this website for this nonprofit agency. And so let me pull it up. So I pulled it up in Google and showed him everything. And I went to the website. I was like, this is what this looks like. And he’s like, they sat there on the call and read through some of the stuff. He’s like, great. And I said, you know, I just did this sales sequence for this client. And so I pulled it up, they read through it. I just did the sales page for this coach. So I pulled that up and I was like, it’s just copy. It’s not even been designed yet because it was an active client. And they read through it and he’s like, that’s great. You seem to know, you know, what you’re doing. I’m like, yeah, thanks. And then, um, he said, you know, we’ll get back in touch with you, you know, that kind of thing. And so they emailed me within the hour, uh, an offer letter and I was like, God, I don’t even know if I want to do this. And so that’s when I really had to think about it. But I think that the secret to that whole thing was not that I was playing hard to get, it was just that. I approached that whole thing as just like a networking call and I don’t know, I wasn’t desperate. There was that and I felt the freedom to just be 100% me and be really honest about my shortcomings and my mistakes and how I could add value maybe, but I was just like, this is kind of it. I feel like that helped stand on the call. It was also an interesting era for the agency. Homestead at that point had just started within the previous four months. Their retention side of the agency, they were mainly just acquisition-focused on unpaid social. And so they were trying to build out their email team. And so when I came on, it was me, one other copywriter, and two designers, and Jacob and Kelly. That was it. And so we were lean, and we were taking on clients left and right. It just, yeah, it was ripe for explosion. So it was just a good time. I don’t know. Dudos to Grace, always. I always thank her so much because it was such a good connection. Rob Marsh: Yeah, Grace is an amazing human being, a great copywriter as well. Before we go any farther, though, let’s talk about the agency because people think different things when they think agency. You know, some people will have in mind, you know, Mad Men, you know, Ogilvy, you know, these big creative boards, presentations, you know, that kind of thing. You guys are a little different from that. Tell us, you know, what’s the work you do and what does working at your agency look like all day long? Matt Snyder: Oh yeah, it’s a good question and yeah, a good distinction to make. I like to tell people, when friends ask about where I work and I say I work for a marketing agency, they think Mad Men and I think they think a big branding house or something where it’s like, Yeah. Madden NS. Yeah. You’re, you’re standing in a boardroom. Rob Marsh: You look just like Jon Hamm. You’ve got the square jaw. Matt Snyder: Yeah, exactly. And for us, it’s nothing like that. Like, you know, we’re, we’re a gross marketing agency. Like we specialize in acquisition and retention services for mostly D to C brands, like direct consumer brands. Um, some, some B to B stuff we’ve dabbled in, but D to C is our wheelhouse. And mostly it’s like brands that are doing anywhere from like one to a hundred million dollars in revenue a year. So it’s like, Uh, it’s kind of I mean, you know, there’s a big difference between a 1 million dollar brand and even a 10 million dollar brand or 20 million dollar brand so when you hit that 100 million rev mark, it’s What you’re doing for them is very different than what you would do for a 1 million dollar brand But anyway, it’s like brands like hexclad we work. These are on our website. So i’m not like giving up but like Thanks Cloud is one of our biggest accounts in the past. T-Rex, Grubly Farms, Veggie Casely, The Woobles, Dose, Pink Friday, Mail, which is a Mickey Minaj’s brand. We worked with a lot of really cool ones, a lot of good small brands too that deserve mentions. But we mainly just Do again, acquisition and retention. So paid social. So ads, landing pages, UGC type stuff, and then retention services. So mostly email and SMX. And we do a lot of content strategy across all those areas. A lot of consulting with brands. They might have… We add value to like, you should change this on your website. You should do that. We don’t do websites, but we give a lot of good pointers. I’m sorry, when I came on, I think we were maybe towing like 30, 40 people across the whole agency. We’re 100% remote, spread out across the US, North America. We have people in Europe, we have people in Asia, Southeast Asia. I mean, it’s like, we have people that travel all the time. So it’s like, Japan’s the hotspot this year. Everyone’s going to Japan this year for some reason. Rob Marsh: I’m jealous. Japan is on my list. I’d love to go. Matt Snyder: Same. I’m like, why, why would I not? But yeah, we’re, we’re over 70 employees now. Um, last year we went on a big growth spurt, um, which was challenging in its own right. But like, it’s, it’s been really good. We’ve built out some solid teams. Um, so pretty, pretty enjoyable, but like our goal, um, is not to be the biggest agency. It’s to be the best agency. And we had rather go a lot deeper, uh, with fewer clients and do higher quality work than just, you know, make a buck and do a bunch of rush jobs. Um, and I think that, that kind of focus and that goal, you know, it translates into our commitment to development, like really like hiring top notch employees, but like nurturing those people, nurturing their growth, um, and figuring out like, you know, what do you want to do? Where do you want to be in five, 10 years? Um, and I always, I always tell people, you know, when I’m hiring for my team, for the copy team, like I’m under no impression. that people are going to be at this agency for their entire career. Most people don’t go to an agency and be like, I want to work at an agency my whole life. Unless you’re at Ogilvy or one of those big places. But it’s like, what do you want to do after this? I want to make sure that when you come in here, you’re getting equipped for what you’re going to do after. So when you come into Homestead and you spend time here, you’re like, I really love who I worked with. I love the clients, like just had a wonderful experience. They prepare me for what came next and they were supportive the entire way. Um, that’s what I want to hear. So, um, anyway, we’re, yeah, we’re, we’re, we’re a strange agency in some ways, but like, I honestly, it’s the best job I’ve ever had. Um, it’s the best agency I’ve ever worked out cause it’s the only one I’ve ever worked out, but like, it’s, it definitely flies in the face of, uh, those agency rumors, people are like, they’re horrible, you know, and you’re overworked and underpaid and underappreciated and homes, we, but no, that’s not our MO at all. And I think a lot of our, our employees would attest to that. So. Rob Marsh: That’s good. So you went from being a copywriter to now you’re the copy chief or you’re managing other copywriters. How did you do that? Matt Snyder: I don’t know. No, I think, um, showing that I could do work number one. Um, you know, when I, so yeah, when I started, I was one of two copywriters that was just doing emails and I think I was on like six accounts and then, uh, we hit a rough spell. We had to, uh, let people go. And so then I was the only copywriter and I was writing for, I remember one, one month I was writing for 18 accounts. By the way, that’s not sustainable. Yeah, that’s nuts. That’s crazy. Yeah, everybody knew it. And so there was a lot of grace. Our CEO was writing copy and sending it to me for review. Everybody was pulling their weight. We had to do what we had to do. And then we finally were able to hire more people and grow. And so I think the longevity of my time being there and showing that I could crank out the copy went a long way. And it was a good copy. It wasn’t half-assed. But then that helped. And then as our team grew, I kind of became, I don’t want to say a shepherd of sorts. A mentor? A mentor, yeah. Our next copycat, she was solid. She is solid. And I will sing her praises all day long. But I didn’t really feel like… I felt like a co-worker to her, a lot of our senior team, because we’re all in the trenches at the same time. But then it got to the point where we needed to hire, we needed to have a lead copywriter to kind of manage, be the bridge between the leadership team and the copy team and just kind of managing their day-to-day. And so I think the reason I got promoted into that role was just because of my leadership background from previous life experiences and just my natural, not candor with the team, that’s the wrong word, rapport with the team, maybe. Um, that’s the word poppy right here. Um, yeah, my national report as a team, I think it really helped. And so that kind of evolved. And then over time, like our, as our team kept growing, like I got, uh, taps to help with recruiting and hiring, um, mainly just getting to sit on our interviews and have a say. Um, cause our, again, like our, our head of staff now she’s phenomenal and she could pick a diamond out of the rough. And so yeah, then last year, they’re like, hey, we’re growing and we need your help on the paid side of the agency. Because my focus was purely on the retention side. And so they promoted me up into the director role. And so they’re like, yeah, now everything that is copy related agency, it’s yours. Um, so that’s pretty crazy. Um, so that’s how I kind of got into that role. But again, I think it goes back to, um, that leadership experience. No, it’s more than just copy. Like, I think there’s a tendency in a lot of workplaces where it’s like, just because your best employee does the best job and can do X, Y, Z, um, doesn’t mean they’re actually going to be the best manager or leader for a team. And so I, in a lot of ways, like, My senior copywriters, uh, that I get to work with, uh, I think they’re better writers than I am, um, by a long shot. Um, and I, I mean, Joe Bailey, you know, I’ll name them like they’re fantastically talented, um, writers in. Can write me right circles around me. Um, but like, I do bring a certain leadership ability to the table that I think helps with the whole of the team. And so. Yeah, it’s just showing up every day, doing the work, being committed, not being a prude about it. I think a lot of it’s just added to that value of growing there. Rob Marsh: So this interview is happening because I sent out an email a month and a half or two ago talking about a workshop that we were doing in the underground. And it was about how copywriters can find full-time or even part-time jobs working with in-house type clients. So, you know, businesses that might have a creative team, or maybe they don’t have a creative team, but they’re working with freelancers on a part-time or full-time basis. Agencies like the one that you’re in. And you responded back basically saying, I got a lot to say about this. We’re hiring a couple of copywriters right now, and I gotta tell you some stuff. And unfortunately, we weren’t able to get you on that same training that we did in the underground, but we’ve got you here now, and I can share some of the stuff that Jessica, my friend who did that interview, what she shared, but you’ve got thoughts about how you get hired as a copywriter in I mean, your agency specifically, but would also be applicable to all kinds of different businesses. So let’s talk about some of that. What are you seeing? What are you seeing that people are doing wrong? And maybe let’s start with wrong so we can end on a positive, you know, what should be doing it right. But what are you seeing that’s just you’re pulling your hair out over? Matt Snyder: Oh man, um, that’s, that’s a great question. Rob Marsh: And I know, I know we could, we can be kind of brutal here. Uh, I know you’re not picking on any one person, but there’s some stuff that’s going on that, that we really ought to call out. Matt Snyder: Yeah. I mean, I knew we were going to talk about this, so I kind of wrote down some ideas, things to touch on. And I think before this call we were talking, I’m like, I mean, I, I could sound really mean, like, but there are, there are, There are people who apply for copywriting roles that have no business applying for a copywriting role. And it’s kind of maddening. To give some context, We just, we opened up a role on a Friday morning. I think it was, uh, our most recent one, which we’re about to put out an offer for, I believe. Um, so don’t apply, but put it on a Friday morning. By the end of the day, I had 98 applications, uh, in my queue. And then I was like, great, I’m going to go over those on, on Monday. Well, it was an okay weekend. So Tuesday I logged in, I like 170 some. And then by the end of the day, we had over 200. I think we ended up with like 206. Um, and I, I dm’d our HR guy. I was like, please take it down. Um, there’s no way I can keep up. I was like going through these applications left and right. And I’m like, I’ve just seen my queue get longer. I was like, there’s. Yeah, this is crazy. So know that when you apply for a job, especially in today’s market, that’s what I’m seeing as the hiring manager. And it’s like, I have a lot to go through. And so to stand out and say 206, a stack of 206 applications, I feel like I have something to say. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Well, and it’s not just your agency. I see this anytime I see a copywriter job on LinkedIn and you click through to see, you know, what are they looking for? Whatever. Almost always it’s like 180 people applied, you know, see where you stand or how you compare or whatever. So this isn’t just you guys. This is literally every copywriting job in the world right now. Matt Snyder: Yeah, no, I have, I have a family member who’s appointed for jobs and she’s like, look, like the job market is awful right now. I’m like, no, it really is. I said, and I told her, I explained what just happened now. Like we just got tutored some applications. She goes, I, I believe it. She said, I feel like I’m just throwing my name out and saying a prayer. I’m like, I mean, that’s basically what you’re doing. Um, but so some context, like what I’m looking for when I hire a copywriter, um, at Homestead, um, you know, it’s, it’s not just somebody that can do the job and then clock out at the end of the day. Like I’m looking for a member of my team. Like if I wanted somebody to just write an email or an ad, I would hire a freelancer, but we kind of, we don’t try to hire freelancers. We try to hire full-time employees. Um, so we’re, and we’re not looking for somebody who just wants to work here for six months and then leave. We’re looking for somebody who wants to help build and help grow. And so I’m, I’m looking for, for someone with long-term potential because I know how things operate once they get into the agency. And it’s like, we really do focus on development. Um, not just hard skills, but soft skills and then life skills, um, and a lot of different ways. So it’s like, we’re, we’re 70 some people, but we’re really tight knit and we have a very unique culture or it’s just specific. I mean, it’s just good to us. And so when I’m hiring a new copywriter, I’m looking for someone that’s honestly self-aware and empathetic, that checks their ego at the door. One of the most important things is that they need to be teachable, curious folks, eager to grow, and that eagerness has to come through, like that desire to learn. Rob Marsh: So let me stop you there, because as we go through this list, how do you know if somebody is eager to grow? It’s one thing to show up on a call and act humble, but then show up with an ego. So what are the filters that you’re using to even, and especially because you’re looking at resumes and cover letters, you’re not even talking to people at this point, right? So how do you filter that? Matt Snyder: One of the biggest helps for me, and this is this is awful, and you’re listening and you do this. If it works for you, great, but it doesn’t work for getting my attention, that’s for sure. But people who send cold emails to blanket agency lists. um that’s a surefire way to get on my do not hire list um and it sounds awful but like number one those emails usually go to my spam but also when you’re spamming my team and they’re like hey why am i getting a message from this guy i might just ignore it like and they’re offensive because they’re trying to get your attention And so they just say really stupid things like, I’m going to throw a brick at your window. Okay, well, that no, like fired before you’re hired. Like it’s stuff like that. Like, um, I, I don’t want to categorize the type of person that typically sends those emails, but they’re usually male and they usually like to flaunt their successes. Um, and there, there’s no air of, uh, humility about what they write or how they present themselves. So that does come across in their copy pretty well. And I think we all know the brands that are really good about, um, you know, executing on that ethos and mentality. So to me, it really comes through in your copy, um, in the way you answer your application questions, especially, um, maybe in the way, like you answer some of the questions, like every single question I have in our application, I have for a reason, like they’re intentional. um, and there to reveal something. I think one of the most, the most telling ones for me is like we have, um, I think I wrote it down somewhere so I wouldn’t forget, but like, uh, why do you think you’d be a good fit for Homestead and for this role? Um, it says a lot about somebody if they can answer that well, just because it’s like, if you know enough about our agency and how we operate and how we function and the clients we serve, like you will answer that question with like a phenomenal, like finesse. Um, but if you just are applying for a job and you just hope that you’re going to get like an interview that comes through to, um, we just interviewed somebody who, uh, she was so hungry to like her, her application questions were very short and brief. We’re talking like one sentence answers to all of them, which doesn’t sound like an easy way to stand out, but they were. Oh, good. And I was like, this is exactly what I’m looking for. But one of the things she mentioned was. how eager she was to learn from our team specifically. And she mentioned people. And I’m like, that shows somebody who’s aware of what of our team and what’s happening. And they clearly follow us like, and I knew they followed us online. And so that that kind of stops it out. So it’s like, if if you can get yourself out of the way enough, the way you present yourself to like, show that, hey, I’m interested in helping you become the best version of you or whatever it is. It’s like copyrighted one on one, like, make sure you’re talking to your audience. And say what you know they want to hear or need to hear. And I don’t feel like enough copywriters approach job applications with that mentality. It’s like you’re writing a pitch, you’re writing a sales letter to me for you. use those same tactics that you would for a sales letter in your application. We had a girl, we also interviewed her. She was awesome. Her cover letter was written like an email. It was awesome because she knows how we write emails and that’s what we’re hiring for, that email copywriter position. And she gave us different concepts and different ideas with it. It was very creative and it stood out amongst the staff and I was like, this is awesome. I don’t know if I answered any of your question. I kind of went off on a rabbit trail, but, um, yeah, I think it comes, it comes off in your copy. If you’re, if you’re humble and you don’t have an ego and if you’re curious, like it, it’s just evident, um, across the pool of your portfolio and application. Rob Marsh: Yeah, so obviously breaking through is huge here because, you know, if you’re one of 207 people and you’re just sending a resume in the typical, you know, I’m a match for the job because of X, Y, and Z, you know, I’ve looked forward to talking, whatever. You may be the greatest copywriter in the world, but it’s so easy to get lost in there. In some ways, that’s making you, as the copy chief, or the hiring manager, whoever, do the work of trying to figure out, is this person really as good as they say? Hearing it is, you know, the cover letter written as an email that your agency would send out. So they’re clearly aware of the work that you do. That stuff stands out. What if, uh, what if somebody sent you a box with a shoe in it that said, uh, I just want to get a shoe in the door or foot in the door, you know, that, which, which is, I think Luke Sullivan writes about this in, uh, Hey Whipple, that he had a closet full of shoes, uh, because of that. But does that stuff stand out too? Or like, what do you, when it comes to big ideas, what are you looking for? Matt Snyder: I would, I would, that would be alarming to me because I want to know how they got my address. Uh, you know, we don’t, we don’t have a, like a headquarters, so it’s not, I’m never going to get a package that you send to me. Like when clients want to send us stuff, we give them a spreadsheet with our address on it, but they ask. But I think, yeah, stuff like that goes a long way. The people who stood out the most with this last round were people who had engaged with me regularly on LinkedIn. or via email previously, like had a bit of an interest in the role. We had people who had applied for a previous position last year. They applied again and sent me an email, hey, I applied for this again. And I was like, oh, I recognize you. So the DMs and the emails that are genuine and kind and not that templated, like, you know, I wish this email was a brick. Literally came through today, by the way. Uh, I think those, those stand out the most. And I, I personally, like, I recognize, I try to engage with every single person who, who emails me, who DMs me, who leaves a comment on my LinkedIn post or, you know, my newsletters or replies to my newsletter emails. Um, I try very diligently to respond to every single one. So if you’re engaging with me, you can better believe that I’m going to recognize your name and I’m going to recognize genuine engagement. And I try to reward that with my time. So I think that in today’s online world, that really does go a long way. And those same people who DM me and email me, they genuinely know what’s happening with our business. They know the clients we’re working with. They they make make mentions of it. Uh, they’re like, yeah, I saw this email that just went out for this brand I hope you guys are still working with them. That was awesome Uh stuff like that that really does carry weight it carries volume. So um, you you mentioned something about uh Kind of doing work beforehand and making sure that they’re a good fit. That was one of the tips I wrote down. I think if people pre-vet themselves for the positions, it saves me time and it saves them time. Rob Marsh: What do you mean by that? Pre-vet. Pre-vet. Like, yeah, I’ve never written copy before, so maybe this isn’t a fit for me yet or… That could definitely be one of them. Matt Snyder: I think, again, emailing or DMing or the hiring manager or even agency, like, I have questions about position before I apply. Who can I ask those questions to? I had several people do that, um, this last round. And there were a few that I was like, you’re just one person. Sue is But not like if anybody’s hiring and they need to senior copywriter, let me know because I will send you her her details but um, she was overqualified for the role. And I was like, look, you have an amazing portfolio. Like you have a great work history. You clearly know what you’re doing. You’re overqualified for the position we’re hiring for because we’re not hiring a senior writer. Uh, we’re not hiring a junior writer. We’re hiring a mid-level writer. And so if you are wanting to work with us, like we can’t pay you, um, what you’re worth. And so like, I, you know, later in the year or some other time, if we’re hiring a senior role, um, please say your name and hat, but it’s going to be evident. And so I think being able to ask those questions like, hey, before I buy, I just want to make sure like, what’s the salary band for this? Or like, what’s the expectations? Like, is this a mid-level role? Is this a senior role? What am I going to be writing and working on? That starts the conversation already. And so that helps you pre-vet yourself and know whether you want to put in the time to answer the application questions, piece together a portfolio, that kind of thing. I had a guy email me yesterday. He was like, Hey, I want to be a junior copywriter. I’ve admired your agency for a long time. We’ll love, like, I know you, who you are because of your work online. And, um, I know Homestead because of their influence and place in the DTC world. We’d love to work with you, but I want to work as a junior writer. Um, and I was like, well, he was a solid fit for a junior role. We’re not hiring for a junior writer. So like, you know, keep your eye on the website, like, uh, in our careers page. Like if we’re hiring, you need to throw your name in the hat. Um, it’s something that like goes a long way to prevent yourself, make sure that you’re going to be a good fit for the role. If you have questions, um, I had people apply that. It’s like, you’re a technical writer or like you should be writing case studies. Uh, you write long form content. These are short, quippy emails for e-com brands. You’re not going to like, do you pull that off really well? Great. In my experience, I’ve seen those kinds of writers struggle to adapt. And in this situation that we’re hiring now, we need somebody that can hit the ground running quickly. I don’t have time to like, train you how to write an e-mail. And yeah, clarity is king, brevity is key. So yeah, it’s the pre-vetting beforehand to make sure that you’re going to be a good fit for the position. It can go a long way. Rob Marsh: What else should people be thinking through? So one of the things that came up in the training we did in the underground, Jessica suggested that every single role that you apply for, you should probably be rewriting your resume so that it is objectively aimed at what’s required for that position. And while that is a total pain in the butt, Uh, it’s, it goes a long way because, uh, you’re not seeing the generic stuff on your resume. You’re seeing things that apply directly to, you know, this particular position sucks if you’re doing this 30 or 40 times, but like if the key is to break through, you know, that kind of, or, or, you know, the generic, uh, cover letter is kind of the same thing. Um, so what else are you looking for? Matt Snyder: Yeah, that’s definitely one of them. I look at resumes and when I’m looking, I don’t care if you send me a generic resume. I care about your cover letter and I care about your portfolio and I care how you answer the application questions. That’s how you’re going to get through to me. Your resume is great. It’s a great snapshot of your history. I always ask for a link to your LinkedIn. Um, again, I’m very active there, so, um, I will go to your LinkedIn and I’ll look at your work history. I’ll look at your posts. I’ll see what you’re talking about. I’ll see how you present yourself. So that, that matters to me. Your resume is great. It’s just a snapshot of your work history. I think some, some businesses, you know, it matters more than others in ours. I’m like, I like to know where you’ve been and what you’ve worked on. I think that’s important, but I want to see the work that you’ve produced. So your portfolio, um, carries more weight to me than your, Somebody looked at my resume, and I’ve worked at Blockbuster, I’ve worked at Ministries, I’ve worked at Brewster Coffee for five years. My work history is all over the map. It’s like someone’s like, you’re doing what you’re doing now? It’s like, yeah, I know, right? So I take your resume with a grain of salt. I take your portfolio and the rest of those things with a lot more weight. So when it comes to your application, again, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I put a lot of thought into the questions that I ask. They are all there for a reason. Ask about AI tools, preferred writing style, why you’d be a good fit for us, the latter demonstrating your awareness of the business and what we’re actively working on. um Writing style is kind of a tell too. I’ve had a lot of people who with journalism backgrounds that again are used to like long-form content writing They’re like apa style. I’m like, that’s not what i’m asking um, and it’s more than i’ve framed the question more than just preferred writing style, but it’s like That’s i’m interested. That’s the way you interpret it, but that’s not what I meant Rob Marsh: That’s a really good strain or sifter for the right person if they answer that way. Matt Snyder: It really is. It’s such a big tell. If they ask for your cover letter, a resume, and a portfolio and you don’t include it in your application, It’s an immediate no for me. Like, especially like, you’re applying for a copywriting role, you’re applying for a creative position to not include a creative portfolio demonstrating your ability. Like, man, you’re off the rocker. Like, I gotta see this. Like, I gotta see what you’re made of. Rob Marsh: I recently saw a post on LinkedIn where they were so, they were that specific. It was for a direct response agency. And one of the things they said, you know, it’s like, you know, send in your cover letter, your resume or whatever. And then they even went and said, if you do not include a cover letter, you will not be considered, which like it should go without saying, but clearly people don’t follow instructions. Matt Snyder: Yeah, I mean, that cover letter is your elevator pitch. So like, that cover letter could be the same thing you send to me via email to vet yourself out for the position. Like, I mean, it’s not, don’t make it difficult, but like, include it. It goes, like, it helps me interpret what I see before I see it. so i think that’s that’s huge i think um here’s a uh daniel drossel has like the anti cover letter um strategy course thing like that that would be worth looking into i don’t know anything about it but like apparently it gets results so um there you go shout out daniel um also great email lists to be subscribed to so that’s important. I check for errors. Um, especially if you are like, I’m a copywriter and you send me stuff that has grammatical errors or mistakes or spelling mistakes. Guys, put your best foot forward. Um, I think another thing is important. Don’t insult the hiring team or the business when you’re answering the questions. So it’s not funny. Give an example of that. Yeah, it’s not a place to air your grievances about the way an industry operates, for example, or that that question is being asked in the first place. I had somebody like, why are you wasting my time with this question? You should be asking this instead. And I was like, declined. It’s funny. Come on, man. Rob Marsh: Have you had anybody reach out? It’s like, if you had me, your website wouldn’t be so bad or your response rates would be 10 times what they are. That comes back to what we were talking about, the lack of humility. But that seems really offensive. I mean, for me, it’s like, hey, I can see your website isn’t performing. How can you see that? You have no idea what my back end looks like. I get those all the time. Yeah, that’s okay. Matt Snyder: Yeah, I’ve had those. Rob Marsh: I’m not the only one. Matt Snyder: I’ve had people put ultimatums in their application, like, I’ll send you my portfolio if you give me an interview. I was like, no. You’re not going to do that either, dude. I will say, guys tend to be the bigger offenders than women out there. So take that information as you will. But dudes, you need to straighten it up. But I think application, yeah, resumes are great. Cover letters are really important. Answering all those application questions is super important. Also, Don’t answer your application questions using AI. It is very obvious when you do. Last year we were hiring, we hired two roles, a junior role and a mid-level copywriter role. And I had both rounds. I had people answering, like, I was like, describe your experience with copywriting or just describe your preferred writing style. I can’t remember what it was exactly. I removed the question. But I had probably 15 or 20 applications that gave me the exact same response. Exact same response. Did it have the rocket emoji in it? No, no emoji. But I was like, can you just show some like effort at least um and change these a little bit and i had one person that did it was the same point just rewritten but same as everybody else like it’s an instant no for me um i want you to show that you can think critically and uh think like how you would think i don’t care how chat gbt would think or quad or deep seek or whatever it is like i don’t know how you’d think like One person in this last round, they answered the AI question like, yeah, I use AI tools. I used it for this. And this is why I used it. And this is how I used it. And this is how I changed it. And I’m like. That sounds awesome. Like it wasn’t, it wasn’t like copy paste. One person had copy and pasted chat. GBT said blank. I was like, wow, come on. Um, so, so don’t do that stuff. And then, um, I, I’ve noticed a lot of people too, like, you know, talking about boosting conversion of the websites and stuff. A lot of this, this is maybe a red flag for, for some freelancers, even pitching anybody for anything. Um boasting about the result that they can get client um, I would caution people about doing that to uh, hotly because it’s like I didn’t want to see receipts I want to see the client testimonials I want to see the LinkedIn recommendations. I want to see the screenshots from their Klaviyo accounts or MailChimp accounts or whatever it is or Shopify store. Like I want you to prove to me that your copy really did make that conversion. Um, otherwise I can’t, I have no reason to believe it. Um, cause I don’t know you from Adam. So bring your receipts. I had somebody was like, I did this for this person. I did this for that person. I did this for them. And I’m like, I don’t know if I should believe you, because you’re also the same type of person who sends blanket blasts to just lists you don’t know who’s on it. And so, yeah, I think be cautious of boasting your success. Please boast your success, but there’s a difference between confidence and cockiness, and one’s off-putting and the other’s not. And a good copywriter ought to be able to thread that needle. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think, I think it’s really important. We talk about portfolios. Um, cause I’ve mentioned this lots, but like, if your application doesn’t include a link to your portfolio, it’s a hard pass for me, brother. Um, I think something that a lot of copywriters that have applied this last round that overlooked is their portfolios were not easy to access or navigate. Um, there are websites that you are just for copy portfolios. So those are fine. They’re clunky. Some of them, I don’t even remember the names of them. Um, I don’t tip. I don’t even have a portfolio. Uh, but I would make one if I, if I was applying for a job, but like, make sure they’re easy to access and navigate. And then if you have to password protect it because of client NDAs or whatever, I totally understand that. But like, make sure you give your password with your application. And then also make sure that password is correct. So I had several people this last round who did not give me a password or they gave me an incorrect password. I was like, ah, detail. You overlooked that. Sure, it was a great portfolio, but you’re out. Um, and again, I had 206 applications to go through. I’m like, surely it was somebody else’s link to their portfolio. Um, I think, you know, Google docs work fine. I did Google, uh, folder drive, whatever. Um, that works fine. Most people come to me that way. Um, a notion database with tags, uh, has someone sent me a notion database. Um, Did that look good? I know it’s easy to put together. The tags were really helpful because I was able to be like, okay, emails, boom. Ads, cool. Landing pages, even better. And so it was like they knew what they were applying for. They curated that portfolio, it was clear. They knew they’d be writing ads, emails, landing pages, and text. And so that’s what they included in their portfolio to me. And I was like, this is money. They got an interview, by the way. um and then uh figma figma board was probably one of the best ones i saw recently uh they had just big old figma file it took forever to load but once it loaded i was like this person’s sick Uh, they did get an interview. Um, and they are awesome Canada, by the way. Um, but there are categories too, like ads, landing pages, emails, they did websites, they did, they did a sales pages. They had, I mean, they had, it was everything portfolio, but like, I could get to where I needed to go, um, to see what I needed to see. That was, that was great. But I think, yeah, if you’re putting together a portfolio, make sure it’s specific to the role you’re applying for. The number of people who, yeah, they want, they just want to work at Homestead or they just want an agency job or whatever it is. And they send me, like, long form content pieces. I’m like, I mean, number one, I don’t know if Claude or chat GBT wrote that, but also, you know, it’s just in a Google doc. Um, I want to see it on a website. I want to see it live. Um, and I want to see the kind of content that you’re going to be writing for me. So, uh, please include that stuff in your portfolio of whatever you’re applying for. Make sure that it’s there. If you don’t have. e-com ads or stuff like that. I accept spec work as long as you tell me that it’s spec work. I’ve had people apply to spec work and it’s top tier spec work. Even more, if you look at our portfolio on the website, like, oh, they wrote for Hexslide or they do emails for the Woobles or whoever it is. And then you spec work a piece of for that client. Like I can then see if you really have what it takes to write for us and our clients because I’m that voice. Um, so that’s, that’s huge. And even if you’re, um, you have content in your portfolio that matches the type of whatever you’ll be writing for that, that, uh, agency, um, it’s still to go a long way back. Hey, I did this for this brand. It’s pretty cool. I think too, I love to see designed content. Um, A lot of people send over just Google Docs with their copy. That’s fine. We write our copy in Google Docs. We send it to Design. Design drops it in Figma. We send clients the final product to review, copy and design. And so it’s like, If you have a design piece versus just a copy content piece, it’s kind of a hidden tell. I can tell that you can work with the design team to get your ideas from concepts to like reality. And so I prefer to see portfolios with fully designed pieces. I tend to favor those more. Do without what you will, audience. But I think that really says a lot. Yeah, we talked about curating content to the position. Yeah. I mean, those are just some, um, some thoughts with portfolios, but portfolios huge, uh, for a copyrighted role. Like if you don’t have one, don’t bother. Like just don’t bother applying. Rob Marsh: That’s, yeah, that’s important. So a couple of things are slightly different kinds of questions. We’ve talked about junior level, mid-level and senior level copywriters. How do you guys break those into different bands? I know this differs a little bit from place to place or, you know, agency to agency, but there’s some pretty good break points, I think, for this. So what are you looking at for each level as far as experience and capabilities go? Matt Snyder: Yeah, I think we have… So at Homestead, we spent a lot of time, our leadership team, developing role progressions. So if you enter Homestead as a junior copywriter, you know what your responsibilities are, you know what your… These are your main tasks, the main deliverables we want you to hit. These are your milestones, your growth opportunities. And so if you want to then become like, we have, we do junior, copy one, copy two, which those are mid-level, and then senior copywriter, lead copywriter, head of copy or direct of copy, whatever I do. And so if you want to move from the junior to copy one, you know what you have to do to get there. And yeah, it goes a little bit beyond your job description, but it’s like showing that initiative. Um, I tend to work with the team. So it’s like I make those kind of growth milestones, like your goals. So those are things we work on. Um, and you know how long you have to be in that position to qualify for a move up and what you have to do. So they, it kind of does that with each role as they, they progress at Homestead. Rob Marsh: So if you’re, if you’re hiring for a junior copywriter, is that a pure beginner or what kind of experience are you looking for there? Matt Snyder: Kind of a pure beginner. I’m looking for somebody that has copy chops. That’s what I like to say. They have the ability to write well and they also demonstrate a desire to learn, to be curious. We just interviewed somebody who That came off the screen. I mean like it was just so obvious like they wanted to learn and grow and they said I want to learn this, I want to learn that, I want to learn this, I want to be able to do this. And I was like okay, you know what you need to do, you know what you’re capable of now, like you know where you want to go, like that’s so helpful to me. Because I’m like I can kind of guide that and push you in the right direction. Um, it’s the people who come to me that are like, I know it all. I’m like, I want one. I’m going to hire you. Um, so a junior writer though, as somebody who’s hunger hungry, they’re teachable. They know they need to grow. Um, when we hire them as a junior writer, it’s like, you’re, you’re starting out with just emails and SNS. Like that’s it. And like the, the big piece for me there is like, I’m going to teach you not how to just write emails and SMS really, really well, our Homestead way, but I’m also going to teach you how to do content strategy. So you learn to master content strategy like that first year, writing emails and SMS, and you start dabbling into other areas like building out ads, learning how interpersonal connections, communicating well with clients, contributing to internal projects, you start to move up and expand your skills. As you move into copy one and copy two, your contributions kind of expand. So you’re not just writing emails and SMS and doing content strategy. You’re doing that and you’re helping the pay team with landing pages. And you might be contributing to ad copy. And so you do that. There’s a lot of other details at play, but like growth milestones. And then when you move into a senior role, it’s like you’re working obviously on bigger accounts. You’re working on fewer accounts, but with a lot more depth. And so these might not just be like a million-dollar brand a year in revenue. They’re like $50,000, $75,000, $100 million in revenue a year. They’re a big account. And so you have less clients on your plate so you can do even better work. That’s more focused. And you’re controlling the narrative across paid, landing pages, email. You’re helping the whole team with the whole funnel. Rob Marsh: It sounds like you’re doing more strategy work at the highest level. Matt Snyder: Yeah, yeah. We have one of our seniors, she’s very involved with audits and helping with pitching new business and she’s really good at deep diving. One of the things I’m really bullish on is having people identify Like, what do you want to learn? What do you want to be good at? Like, if there’s a specialty or a niche and the coffee space and, and our industry, especially that you want to get good at, we’re going to pour resources into cultivating those skills for you because they’re going to be a benefit to us as an agency. And so like, we, we have a team that’s just, we have some really good researchers. We have people that are really, really great with creative strategy and developing like Um, you know, customer persona and doing customer research and building a really well thought out customer avatar and, uh, buyer journeys. I mean, it’s somebody’s clients were like, this is just crazy what you guys are pulling off. It’s like, it’s because we taught, we help our team learn how to do this stuff so that they can add the value back to you. So it’s like when I, somebody comes into the junior, I’m looking for potential. Rob Marsh: And at the mid-level then, are you looking for, obviously they’ve been doing some of this, but are you looking at time? Like I’ve been doing this for three years, or are you looking at like, now I have examples of landing pages in addition to the emails and maybe some other, you know, some of the stuff that your mid-level person is working on? Matt Snyder: I’m looking at time. I’m looking at, yeah, the portfolio. Like if, if you’re at the mid level, like you’re going to be doing a lot of emails and a lot of landing pages. I need to know that you have a, not a broader understanding of the industry, e-commerce especially than just email. Um, and so like the people who I, who we’ve been interviewing, uh, diligently in the last week, it’s like they have a portfolio that supports that and they have experienced that support. So like, I, like we’re talking about two to three years experience, five to six, probably, probably two to three. Um, a junior, like if you have like a year of experience, I’ll, I’ll look at you. Um, but if, yeah, if you have like six months. Probably not a mid-level copywriter. Yeah, but a mid-level writer. Yeah. You’ve got like two or three years underneath your belt. Um, but yeah, one of the ones we’re talking about right now, she has had experience helping grow a B2C brand in all aspects. So she’s touched copy and all the areas of my. That is useful to me because you are going to be able to not just execute well on those deliverables. You can empathize with the client. You kind of know their pain points and where their focus is at certain periods of time. So I look at that stuff. And then for seniors, I personally prefer to promote from within. So I will hire a senior if it comes down to it. we have some really, really good riders, mid-level riders right now that deserve to be seniors. And so I would rather promote from within into a senior role than hire a senior. That makes sense. Rob Marsh: Well, thanks, Matt, for sharing all of this. It feels like, you know, we’ve kind of opened up the secret door on hiring in some ways. Hopefully it’s enlightened a few people and we can improve, you know, if we’re applying for those kinds of in-house roles or even part-time roles. If people want to connect with you, I know you’re really big on connection and follow up, that kind of thing. Would you say LinkedIn is the best place? Matt Snyder: LinkedIn is probably the best spot to connect with me. Matthew Snyder on LinkedIn. You can also have a newsletter. It’s free. It’s always going to be free. It’s called the Copy Minimalist, copyminimalist.com. I have like, you can sign up, you get access to my swipe file. I add to it every Friday. There’s hundreds of examples in there. You can also like on that same website, you can get a playbook I made about just some principles that I follow when I’m writing copy to keep it simple and short. So yeah, LinkedIn is the best place. You can also email me. My email is on LinkedIn. You can DM me on LinkedIn if you want to meet and have a call. I’m happy to do it. I’m always happy to connect. So yeah, just don’t be strangers. I’m an open book. I will share anything. So this is great. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks for being here. I appreciate everything you’ve shared. Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me. Rob Marsh: Thanks to Matt Snyder for sharing his thoughts about getting hired as a copywriter. Did you notice that Matt mentioned many of his writers are better than he is? That’s the mark of an agency or a company that hires A players. They want to work with people who are better than they are. They want to bring in new people who add new skills and add to the collective skill set. And if you want to be part of a group like that, you need to bring new skills and new ideas and show off how you’re going to elevate that group too. Not just show up and write the thing that your boss hands you.  Matt was pretty brutal in his assessment of the people who should not be applying for copywriting jobs. And this is true of pitching for work as well. You have to be able to deliver. There are table stakes. Even at the entry level, you need to show that you can write, you understand grammar and spelling, and can be trusted to get those right. And if you’re not there yet, practice before you flood the inbox of a hiring manager or a client that you want to work with. The job market is tough right now, but if you follow what Matt shared, it will be a lot better for you than those who didn’t listen to this episode all the way through.  And if you want even more help related to finding a real job as a copywriter or a content writer, jump into The Copywriter Underground where there are additional resources to help you do that. And there are even more resources for freelance writers looking for high-paying clients, so everyone should visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to learn more now.  

Writing Video Sales Letters is an art. It’s not enough to simply record someone reading a regular sales page. They depend more on stories and keeping listeners engaged because you can’t afford to lose your viewer’s attention. In the 436th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with Svet Dimitrov about this challenge and he shared why you need to take a different approach when writing VSLs. We covered a lot more than that, so click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Svet’s LinkedIn Svet’s Facebook The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  If you applied for 200 different projects or jobs, each time sending a new cover letter with your pitch, I imagine you would learn a thing or two about what works and what doesn’t work in the application process. That’s what Svet Dimitrov, my guest on this episode of the podcast, did. But that’s not even the reason I asked Svet to join me on the podcast. I heard another copywriter talking about how Svet is one of the best VSL copywriters in the world today—VSLs are video sales letters and they’re different from regular sales letters because you can’t afford to lose your viewer’s attention ever. We talk about that in this episode and what you can do to improve your own VSL writing skills. If you want to write VSLs, don’t skip this episode. We also talked about Svet’s contrarian advice that copywriters—especially copywriters who are just starting out—should not have a website. Obviously, that’s not the way most of us think. Websites are there to build credibility and help clients see the various ways we can help them. But Svet argues, and I think I agree, that there is a better approach that connects personally with your prospects. You may want to stick around to here what Svet does. As you might expect, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve completely rebuilt the content vault to make it more useable and useful and in the process I’ve added more than 70 differnt  workshops to it. And there are even more coming.  Workshops taught by expert copywriters like Parris Lampropoulos, Joanna Weibe, Stefan Georgi, Jack Forde, Chanti Zak, Laura Belgray and dozens of others. And it’s not just copywriters, we’ve got marketing experts teaching how to build funnels, how to market using tools like Linkedin and Pinterest, how to put yourself in the right mindset to succeed and so much more. And that’s just the workshops. There are dozens of templates, a community of like-minded writers holding each other accountable, and monthly coaching with me. It’s time you joined us inside. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now, my interview with Svet Dimitrov… Svet, I’m thrilled to be able to chat with you. I’d love to start just by hearing how you got where you are. How did you become a copywriter? Before we started recording, I mentioned that I’ve heard your name because people have said you are one of the best VSL copywriters in the world right now. So how’d you get there? Svet Dimitrov: Thank you first for inviting me, Rob. It’s a pleasure to be here. And yeah, my story goes back, I would say, probably Probably by the time I was doing my master’s degree actually, I was really struggling. That was 2009-2010 to finish my master’s thesis. And I did read, so this was in the era when you couldn’t find a lot of stuff on Google. So I had to sift through a ton of pages, I think I went to like the 10th page of Google, which probably nobody goes there these days, just to find, just to do research. But I think that’s when I really started to understand that research is really important. I appreciate it, love the game, although I was struggling to find a good way to express my thoughts in my master thesis. And I think I sift through like maybe 10 physical books. Then I mentioned research on Google. I think I probably went through more than 100 PDFs that I found online and all that stuff.  And it was kind of a crazy couple of months just doing research and research and not getting anywhere, which was frustrating. But then there was this mindset shift that I said, hey, if I’m going to say, hey, I can’t do it, I won’t be able to do it, right? But when I said, hey, I need to do it and I will do it, things started to get better. Um, so after I finished my master’s degree, I started applying. It was actually in European policies and politics. So I started applying for different positions in the European Union related to politics, management and all that stuff. And I couldn’t land any, and I probably sent like more than a hundred different applications. Most of those applications were not only consisting of a CV, but also a cover letter.  So I wrote a ton of cover letters. And later, like years later, I realized that has helped me a lot to master my skills in writing and also in persuasion, because when you’re writing a cover letter, you have to convince the other party to hire you, right? So I realized that that has helped me a lot, but I needed a few years to really understand that I was not cut out to be an employee for first of all the European Union’s different institutions. And I also realized that writing all those cover letters and stuff was really helpful to put in the reps, because I was probably writing every single day. I was changing stuff here and there. Obviously, I wasn’t writing a completely new cover letter, but I was constantly trying to change and see how it’s going.  And then a few years later, I had an office job which was not related to what I was studying, and I didn’t enjoy it at all, so I quit it after a week and a half. And since I had some money saved, and just like a month before I quit my job, I actually met a Chinese girl at a hotel while I was traveling with my family doing a European trip. And I met a Chinese girl and I chatted with her a lot and then she invited me to go to China. Long story short, a few months after that I went to China and I really enjoyed it there. And I was like, hey, maybe I can start learning some Chinese and find a job in China. I still wasn’t 100% certain I was going to do a freelance career, and I had no idea what copywriting was. But since I’ve already studied and learned English and then French, I was like, maybe I can start studying some Chinese.  Obviously, I wouldn’t master Chinese because it’s a completely different, much harder language. But still it would help me to land a job and a few months after that I landed unpaid internship although it was. It was a full-time job, I would say, in China. And while I didn’t enjoy it very much when I went there, because I realized it was very, very different from what it was supposed to be, I enjoyed living there. I enjoyed connecting with the people. And there’s a saying in Bulgaria that one year abroad is like two years at home. Well, I would say that when you go to China or probably another country in Asia, since they’re so much different from, let’s say, Europe, Western Europe and the US, I would say that one year in China is like three or four years at home.  So I spent only three months, but it felt like a year or more. So when I came back, I was like, I definitely don’t want to find a job, but since I had so many different experiences and impressions from China, I decided to create a website to write about like a travel blog, although I was also writing about lifestyle, healthy living, healthy eating. And since I knew that I wouldn’t be able to support myself with a new website, a new blog, I also started looking for content writing jobs first. But I use my website as a portfolio. Obviously, it’s not a necessity nowadays to have a website. And I would probably even advise people not to create a website at first. This is my experience, and I used that, and I think it actually played quite well. And I started lending a few jobs here and there about content writing, and then, I’d say a year and a half later, I started exploring copywriting and I realized it’s not just like copy and pasting words on a google document is completely different and it requires a lot of persuasion. Most of the time it’s much better paid than writing articles for other companies. That’s the short story in like five minutes. Rob Marsh: Yeah, how you shifted over. So let’s go back to just the experience of writing these hundreds of cover letters. I’d love to know what you learned from that experience or what tips you have for writing a good cover letter. And the reason I ask this is there’s been over the last few months, a little bit of a move for some copywriters to try to find a real job, either a part-time job or a full-time job, so that they have some steady income as the economy’s been a little less predictable, things like AI and some of the layoffs that have happened over the last couple of years. So, uh, but they’re struggling. They’re struggling to find those jobs just as much as they’re struggling to find freelance work. It’s hard to make those connections. So what did you learn from that experience that really helped you sell yourself when you were reaching out with cover letters to resumés? Svet Dimitrov: Well, I would say that I learned how to get to the point as quickly as possible. So in the first one or two paragraphs, I would try to grab their attention and then also try to share what are my biggest strengths and why they should hire me. Obviously, I wrote very, very bad cover letters at first. And some of them were starting with a very weird question and some of them were like trying to express my wealth of vocabulary, which I think is something that you should never do when you’re writing copy, unless you’re writing for, let’s say, Harvard Professors for example probably they would appreciate flexing your vocabulary.  But I think, yeah, definitely, I learned that I have to be very succinct and concise and straight to the goal, straight to the point when I am writing a cover letter. And it’s probably the same with copywriting, when you’re writing an email or even a VSL, which is a very long postal time, or at least 1500 words or more, which is probably longer than most cover letters anyway. You have to go straight to the middle of the action. That’s how I actually was able to land an internship. It’s called an elite VSO internship with Fran Reirengil. Probably you’ve heard of him. You’ve been in the game for very long. He’s one of the best VSO writers in the world and one of the It was a very elaborate process to hire those co-copywriters for his internship because it’s free but you have to pass through different phases. And one of them was to hand copy a whole VSL, which was 8,000 words and it took me like 14 hours.  And the second thing or part of that phase was also writing a cover letter, which had to be between 750 to 1500 words. And yeah, that cover letter was I used a lot of storytelling and I got straight to the point in the middle of the action. So that’s what I learned from writing so many cover letters. So yeah, that’s a good tip for beginner copywriters, but I would say for most copywriters, because I would see sometimes even Those copywriters that are a little bit, let’s say, old school or that have come from a different generation, they would rely on different, I would say, they are not accounting the changing environment of the new generation where we have, I would say, lower attention span. So sometimes they will start with a paragraph or two about just kind of like fluff. And I think it’s better to just go straight to the point, grab the attention, grab them by the eyeballs, and then move on. Rob Marsh: So a quick follow up on that, you mentioned stories and I think that a lot of cover letters in particular, as I think about the structure for them, you know, usually saying, hey, I want this job and here’s all the reasons that I should get the job and you list out your qualifications and if you’re doing it Well, you’re trying to match the qualifications in the job description, but almost never have I thought through that that’s a great place for a story. So are you telling your story or are you weaving this in a framework that made it into a story in some way? It feels like you’re doing something a little bit different from what most people do. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah especially for this one that because i’m very very very proud of those i was the only non-native copywriter that landed or kind of got hired for that internship and fran also told me i had the best cover letter out of all the three that were the last the last three three people that got accepted. So I used my own story and then tried to tie it in with the VSL that I had hand copied. And it was a very beautiful transition because it made a lot of sense. For example, I haven’t shared this with a lot of people, but I have a physical problem with my gut, where the esophagus or the food tube is very narrow before it goes to the stomach. And this means that when I eat very solid food, for example, bread or meat or something fatty, it can get stuck in the esophagus. And I had to go to the hospital every, quite a while actually, I went to the hospital last week to do this, they insert a tube, and there’s also a balloon that has to be pumped so it makes the esophagus wider so I can swallow better.  I call this process deep throating because it goes really, really deep, like 20 inches deep. And I used that story because I was copying a cover of the video sales letter about the product so it tied in very beautifully with that story. And the first line of that cover letter was that. I was puking every single night for three months, which is a true story. I was 11 years old. So I didn’t say, hey, this will be a story about, well, I just started, I was puking every single month. So it’s like, what the hell is going on? This is a cover letter and he’s talking about puking. This is how I grabbed his attention and then I tied that in with the VSO as well, because I was talking about the deep throating and then ED and all that stuff. And then I mentioned that I can tie in different elements, which is very helpful not only for VSOs, but also for emails, for example. Rob Marsh: I’m glad I asked that because what you are doing is a massive pattern interruption from all of the other kinds of cover letters that would be out there. And so I think that this is one of those ideas that anybody who’s listening and thinks, yeah, I am going to apply for a real job, you know, in air quotes. to use stories or to do something different so that the hiring person, the creative director, whoever it is, will actually notice you. And then at that point, you can at least have a conversation where you can talk about your skill set and hopefully make that personal connection. So you also mentioned, and I want to follow up on this before I forget, that you don’t actually recommend that a lot of copywriters start with a website. Why not? I mean, I know there are lots of places where you can connect with people without a website, but a website tends to be a really good place to share success stories, build trust, that kind of stuff. So why do you think that it’s not necessary, at least at the beginning? Svet Dimitrov: Because it’s a waste of time in the beginning, I would say, because you can just open a Google document, you can create your own portfolio. You can even add some design elements, maybe on Canva and then try and transfer those to Google Doc or just create your portfolio on Canva. But both of those applications, I would say, are free and they don’t require any crazy amount of no knowledge compared to when a website because if you’re creating your own website and if you’re using let’s say a wordpress.com sub domain, then it wouldn’t be a very, very, very good website. If you’re creating that on Wix, for example, it’s going to be an ugly website. So if you want to create an eye-catching website, you’re going to spend a lot of time. You’re probably going to invest some money into buying a domain. You’re going to invest some money into a designer. And it’s going to take you hours. Instead, you can just go create a Google Doc. You can add those images of people saying Google stuff about you. You can be a little bit more creative. You can even have a cover letter. in front of your portfolio. This is how I usually do it. And I’m not even sharing my website anymore. I’m now rearranging the website.  I’m probably going to share it anyway soon. But this took me like four or five years. I haven’t updated my website and I haven’t shared it anywhere. And people that have paid me five figures for VSLs and for other copy projects have never asked for a website. They just want to see a Google document. And what I would do is I would just write like, I don’t know, like a few paragraphs, something like, hey, and I would try to personalize it. Hey, Mark, below you, you’re going to find my most recent portfolio. But before that, I want to share a few benefits of working with me. And if I really like the person or if I really like the opportunity that’s presented to me, I would probably even have a cover letter in a way that I would probably touch upon things that I have found on his or her profile.  For example, I kind of created a very, very short cover letter in front of the portfolio for a person that wanted to do a rev share project with me. And he really appreciated it. He was like, oh, my God, nobody has done this before. And it took me like five to ten minutes. You just go to their profile, you just do some research. That’s what we are, what that’s what that’s what Coca-Cola operators are for. Right. So you do research, you try to find something that you have in common, maybe, or just something that can draw the attention and say, OK, this guy went to my website or went to my social media or whatever. and include that before the portfolio and then you just and you can even do that with most prospects you’re speaking to because you have that as a Google Doc, and then you create a copy, then you change the name, then you change some of the benefits. Maybe if it’s a person, for example, if most of my clients are in the US, and I always say that I’m based in Europe, which means that I am like 7 to 10 hours ahead of them, which means that they’re going to get their copy in the morning much, much earlier.  So that’s kind of a benefit if they are based in Asia and would try to come up with something different but these are like very small things that add a lot of. value to your portfolio because they would just expect a Google Doc with one or two samples, but then they get a lot more. Sometimes I would even include a picture of me doing something crazy because it adds this element. And sometimes I would even shoot a short, long video which would talk about my experience and I would probably just open the Google Doc and just go through it and say, hey, this is me. But then they would also see my face and it would be a very cool experience. Rob Marsh: I really like this idea. I mean, in some ways it is a website, but it’s not, you know, the typical website, right? But what you’re really doing here that I think makes the difference is you’re personalizing this message or this site that you’re creating with a Google Doc to the person you’re talking to every single time. And even though it may be based on a template, the communication is one to one which is not the typical website experience this feels unique in some way that I think is your really big advantage. Svet Dimitrov: And it’s one hundred percent free it just takes  very little time and also money but if you are, as you said, I actually didn’t even think about that if you send them to website is not gonna be that personal obviously, and this is very very unique and then you cannot even just talk to that google doc to make it a little bit more humorous and spicy in a way so people are like oh this guy has a sense of humor this is great. Rob Marsh: Yeah. No, I mean, you mentioned doing it with Google Docs. I can imagine people could do the same thing with a Notion template. There may be two or three different kinds of ways to do this, but it’s a great idea. Virtually free, like you said, and personal. Yeah, this is definitely something I think, especially with beginning copywriters, but even experienced copywriters can use this kind of an idea to their advantage. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah exactly, I actually started using one with a little bit more experience because I think I got even more confident in a way that I can use that. I also see sometimes when they’re hiring for a senior copywriting position, they always want to see a long video. And even if they don’t ask for it, I would sometimes still shoot a long video and find some stuff that makes sense. Sometimes I would just try to provide some free value in advance even, and say, hey, I imagined this and that, or I checked your website and here’s what I found that can be fixed very, very quickly or something. So these two things, something very personal in whatever you’re using, whether it’s Canva, whether it’s Google Doc or Notion, as you mentioned, probably Notion is even sexier in a way than Google Docs. And then if you even include a long video, then it’s like, oh, my God, you’re going so much. You’re doing so much more than the average person who is applying. So it sets you apart.  And I think people are saying that competition is getting fiercer and fiercer these days. And it kind of is true that there are more people that are calling themselves copywriters or that are still copywriters. But at the same time, they’re getting so lazy with AI, they’re just sending irrelevant stuff, and sometimes they would even make a small mistake in the outreach, they would sometimes spell my name because sometimes I have hired junior copywriters and content writers for some of my own projects. They would spell my name Sven or whatever, something, which is probably sometimes like an auto-correction maybe? But still, that doesn’t make sense when it’s like, hey Sven, and it’s like, okay, come on. Rob Marsh: That should be the first thing you catch is the person’s name. But we’ve all seen the email that goes out even with the first name block without names. Stuff like that. So you started writing copy… how did you become so well known for VSLs and writing in the health niche? How did you move in that direction? Svet Dimitrov: Well, maybe I could start with the second part of this question, how I started with the heavy health management. And probably it would make a lot of sense because as I said, I had this health issue with my esophagus and to curb the I wouldn’t say it’s pain, but it’s a lot of the discomfort and happens most of the time when I’m stressed and especially when I’m eating sunny food. So I had to learn to eat more slowly, which is actually better for your health. And anyway, I’m going to enjoy the food more. But I also started eating in a much more healthy way as well. Like I would avoid sugar. I would eat a lot of fruit and veggies and lean meat and all that stuff. So it kind of makes sense because I’m also very active physically or used to be a little bit more now that I have a very young daughter, it’s a little bit harder to find that time to go out and do a workout every day. But before that, I was very active. I was working out almost every single day for at least 10 to 15 minutes, sometimes twice a day, and eating in a healthy way. So it just made sense to be arriving in the health niche. I know a lot of people say it’s the most competitive niche right now, and it probably is. But at the same time, if you’re good, there’s always this hunger for the best of the best, right? And it doesn’t matter if it is getting better and better. People say that I will. Replace copywriters and I say. Copywriters who can use a i will replace other copywriters this is this is so i am always saying to begin with you have to learn. Or you have to master co-op writing very, very quickly, or at least master the fundamentals, and then start using AI. And you wouldn’t have any trouble finding work. But if you’re a beginner and your English is not great, or your co-op is not great, you’d have to work much, much harder than it used to be before. But once you get to a certain level and you start using AI, you won’t have any problems. You will actually be having probably more work than ever. So I think I lost my train of thought. Rob Marsh: I was talking about… Yeah, I think as far as connecting with, you know, health clients in the health space. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I started then. I had… Yeah, I had one guy who was running an agency got referred to me and the first He was mostly active in the health space and I wrote a few ads for Facebook and a few landing pages for some of his health clients. And I actually really, really enjoyed it because I was already writing a lot of content for my website. As I mentioned, it was not only about travel, but also healthy living, healthy lifestyle. And the health niche is very specific in a way because you have to do a lot more research and they have to support every single claim of yours with very credible sources. Otherwise, you would get into a lot of trouble. You cannot be saying this would increase your testosterone levels by 25% unless you have prove from a credible source like the national center of biology or whatever it’s called, or Harvard University or some university, it doesn’t matter what university, it has to be from a university or from a very credible source. And I think that’s where my love for research, which materialized probably as i mentioned during my master’s degree around fifteen sixteen years ago really kicked in because right now i’m actually doing another health project which involves a ton of research and i’m actually even having a little bit of a hard time because i was i did probably like 30 hours of research this month just on a project that is not even certain But I kind of enjoyed it a lot because it just got me back to my roots, just like going, exploring like the first, at least the first two pages on Google, which nobody goes to the second page anyway. And yeah, health, as I said, even when I was writing content for my website when I was quoting something I would always look for a credible source and nowadays I’m also the co-op chief for a Brazilian DR company. And the copywriters who write all the vsl so we say hey where did you get that idea from you have to like have the source you have to have the source we need the source i have to see the source i have to double check if it’s true the fd and fdc are more. Stringent than ever these days so every single claim we have it has to be substantiated otherwise you will get into trouble. Rob Marsh: Yeah, the laws around that in Europe and the U.S., the law in the U.S. is called DSHEA. Yeah, there’s all kinds of rules there about not saying that something cures or mitigates a disease. You know, there’s limits. You can talk about ingredients, you can talk about the research that’s been done on ingredients, but just because something includes an ingredient doesn’t mean that the thing can do what the ingredient does. So writing in this space can be a little tricky, and it’s good to know or to have writers who understand this kind of stuff. How important is showing that kind of knowledge to a copy chief or to a company that’s hiring writers? Or is that the kind of thing that they say, well, we can train you on that. We’d rather have you be a persuasive writer. Svet Dimitrov: I would say the second part being a more persuasive writer is more important, but the ability to combine those two and also to really know how to do research well and really know to distinguish between a thing That’s really worth researching more and more. It’s gonna really help you and I think I’ve probably got a little bit rusty in the last few months because as I said, I spent so much time on research. But I finally started digging some gold and I think I actually had an email to my address this morning that’s—if you remember the ad by David Ogilvy—about Roll Royce, sixty miles per hour is the only thing you hear is the clock or something? Yeah, the ticking of the clock. Yeah. So he said that he spent, or he at least could claim that he spent, I think like three weeks digging through different papers to find that kind of exact quote from somewhere. And this was the most successful ad of Rolls-Royce, I think, all over the years.  So it pays off to do a lot of research. But sometimes you can get lost in a lot of research. So I’m not saying I’m the best researcher in the world, but knowing how to do research, how to do it somewhat fast and how to especially find the best big ideas. Because the big ideas are what really sells and make a promo go to seven figures or even eight figures is the big idea that nobody has found. And this big idea has actually to be. It doesn’t have to be completely new or alien, but it has to have this And I remember this when I was part of Copy Accelerator and we had a live event in Tampa. And Stefan had a presentation saying that this new idea or new mechanism has to be 10% different. Because people have to have heard of it in a way, but it has to be a new Just just a little bit otherwise if it’s very very new nobody’s gonna believe that right. Rob Marsh: Yeah people are looking for things that are familiar but different enough that they notice them if it’s too familiar they don’t notice but if it’s not familiar enough it’s seen as strange and weird and we push those things away. Yeah, exactly. So let’s talk about writing VSLs, this thing that you do mostly now. How is it different from sales pages? What are some of the things that we need to consider in addition to finding that big idea as we start to structure a VSL? And just in case anybody doesn’t know what a VSL is, video sales letter. So it’s really a sales message in a video format. Yes. Svet Dimitrov: Well I would say the big idea of the mechanism which are a little bit different but let’s let’s say they are there the same for the sake of this argument so the big idea of mechanism are kind of. Like when you’re looking for them whether it’s a sales a sales letter or text sales letter or vsl you are probably have the same approach but when you are writing a vsl. It’s kind of different, it’s harder in a way, because with TSLs or the text sales letters, you have the headline, and then you have subheadline, bullets, and all that stuff. And people can skip and skim, and then they can stop and see, oh, okay, this sounds interesting.  With a VSL, Most of the time, you can’t skip ahead. So it has to flow much, much better. Obviously, the sales letter has to also flow very, very well. But with VSL, if you lose the reader for just a couple of seconds, they’re just going to leave and that’s going to be it. With the text sales letter, it’s a bit different, obviously. If you lose the reader a few times, even with your subheads or the bullets or the primitive design, they’re still gonna leave. But the VSL has to flow very, very, very well, especially in the first part, the lead. The good thing about VSL is that the headline is not that important as with a text sales editor, because with text sales editor, you have to grab their attention A headline that is a very sometimes it’s very elaborate there’s like a few lines of the main headline there and there’s the sub headline and there’s something else with a vsl it’s usually a very short headline but then you have to be. You have to be very very persuasive in that lead in the first i would say at least. 30 seconds, maybe even five to 10 seconds, and then the next 30 seconds, so they really want to pay attention to the rest of the VSL. Rob Marsh: And I know there’s a lot of training and books about how to write great leads. Do you have a favorite as far as what you’d like to start with, or is that determined entirely by the research, the idea that you come up with? Svet Dimitrov: I would say it’s more it more depends on on what the research and what the market is and I would most of the time when somebody hires me to either write leads or a whole vsl i would ask whether they want a particular kind of leads or they want me to send my ideas for example last year. A person who is very well known in the help me to write a few days and ask them and I sent him a few ideas I think like four or five ideas for leads. with the Loom video and said, hey, I have these four ideas or five ideas, which do you like the best? So because he wanted to like just two leads and he said, OK, go with this one and this one. And that’s how I wrote those leads. So I would usually prepare a few more than they are asking for, at least the ideas. And sometimes if it’s like a new client. Probably and especially if the lead is not very, very long, I would probably deliver at least another lead, or maybe, for example, a new health client hired me recently to write three Facebook ads, and I delivered four, just to make sure I’m over-delivering, but also not over-delivering by a crazy amount. Because if they hire you to write two leads and you deliver one more lead, that’s kind of too much. If it’s like a short phase book and you deliver one more, that’s fine, I would say. So there has to be a fine line between over delivering and then delivering way too much that the person can then abuse you in a way. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Yeah. You open yourself up to when you start breaking those boundaries. Yeah. There is a fine line between over delivering and and, you know, giving up basically everything that you’ve got. So yeah, I agree. Svet Dimitrov: And so but that said, I think with leads, I would say the most or the ones that I really enjoy writing are the ones that I actually that you mentioned this so-called pattern indeed interrupts, where you would say, for example, there’s a story that I shared about my deep throat experience was a kind of a pattern interrupt. So I think those perform very, very well. Sometimes it will be like, take a look at this weird object or something that’s completely not related to, let’s say, the health niche or the Pro pro pro pro state neutral doesn’t matter it has to be something completely alien to what the market has heard of. I think those always like almost always convert very very well of course you have to like it’s not only the lead the offer has to be good. But if you can do a great, great job with the lead, and the offer is good, I think that’s a win-win situation. Rob Marsh: I really appreciate what you’re sharing about the fact that a VSL has to flow in a way that a normal sales letter doesn’t. As I’m thinking through this idea, a lot of copywriters, you know, we get caught up in features and, you know, mentioning, you know, the bullet points in a sales letter. And I hadn’t really considered how much that would get in the way of a video sales letter and how much more important a through line, a story that you can weave the entire time. So as I’m thinking about some of the best VSLs that I’m that I’ve seen, they really it’s almost like one story after another story after another story. It’s, you know, open loop. almost don’t close the loop before you start the next story to close the loop. And so it’s in some ways like dialing up the persuasion, almost every paragraph. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah, I actually didn’t think that the VSL has to flow that much, but I recently read it somewhere and it makes so much more sense because I actually enjoyed it. I thought before I started writing VSLs that they’re so much more difficult to write. But then when I started writing, I guess it was more a more natural process that it has to flow better. And every single sentence has to flow with the other one. That’s why it’s really important to read the copy out loud a few times, because that’s where you spot those weird transitions or clunky flow. and you can fix it if you don’t read it out loud there’s a very high chance at least some of those paragraphs or sentences wouldn’t flow that much and if you don’t like rereading or listening to your voice you can just copy and paste the whole vsl into an app and it can read it out for you maybe Probably it’s even better because you hear it from another person or it doesn’t matter if it’s like AI voice or not. But it’s really helpful to hear it. And actually I think that’s also when I was doing my bachelor’s degree and my master’s degree because a lot of my exams were oral and I have to present them and talk, I would always, when I was studying the course materials, I would always read it out loud and it would help me a lot more to memorize it. Rob Marsh: Okay, we’ve mentioned AI a couple of times. How are you using AI in your business? And I know you’re probably not just saying, hey, chat GPT, write me an intro or whatever. Have you set up various agents to help you, you know, or these super prompts that you’re feeding into it all the time or examples of your work? Like how do you use AI to get good copy or at least good ideas out of the system? Svet Dimitrov: Yeah, that’s a great question actually, I just shared on my Facebook just a few hours ago that I was using AI probably since 2010, but it wasn’t there—it wasn’t Chat GPT or Claude, but it was google chat on translate because we will translate also kind of fall on fire and. Before I started getting into freelancing and copywriting I was doing a lot of translations. And when you just copy and paste a lot of text into Google Translate, especially back then, 15 years ago, it would give you a very, very bad translation. But if you copy and paste just sentence by sentence, it would give you a much better translation. So my point is that right now it’s similar. Obviously, AI is much more advanced. And even the first version of ChatGPT or Gemini or Cloud would give you a much better result with a very bad prompt. The more elaborate your prompt is, the better it will be. If you can provide it with a very good brief, it will give you a much better output and result. But what I found is, let’s say if you give a prompt to whatever you’re using and say hey can you write me this video even if it’s the biggest. Brief that you can imagine if you say right the whole video or the whole sales letter. It’s not it’s not going to create a great video but if you do it section by section and you give it great examples that say hey this is a great lead from.  Whatever this this has grossed eight eight eight million dollars you can follow this lead closely just change whatever. it’s going to give you a very, very, very good first draft. And then you have to just edit it very, very slightly. And if you do it section by section by section, it’s going to give you a great output. Obviously, the more elaborate and your own prompt is the better. But in my experience, if you do it, just do it by parts. And I also saw a post or actually a video of David Garfield, he was also mentioned that he was using the same approach. He would just do it section by section, and the result would be 10 times better.  So this is kind of my approach. I also use it for research. Though I found that using AI for research can be great, but it also can be a double-edged sword because it will give you, especially for the health, naturally it will give you sources that don’t exist, so you have to double-check them. Sometimes it will give you, sorry for that, it would give you ideas that are great but there’s no claim that there’s no source for those claims so you have to be really vigilant about those sources and claims. And you have to be very, like, it can give you a lot of ideas very, very quickly. And I have found some great ideas. But then I would see an idea and I would go to Google and do my own research. And then I would use AI again to distinguish between what is the strongest, strongest idea, for example. But I wouldn’t ever rely 100% right now on AI just to give me ideas. It can give me ideas, I would then consider them, do my own research, and then start writing. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that makes sense. So I want to ask you a different kind of question here. There is a belief, and it’s probably true, that it’s very difficult to make a living as a copywriter as a non-native speaker. And, you know, there are a couple of exceptions to that rule. You are one of them. What advice would you have? Well, I guess, I mean, you’ve proved that you can survive because you’ve done very well as somebody who didn’t start out speaking English. But what is what advice do you have to those who maybe are English as a second language? They want to be copywriters. They want to be able to connect with clients with good work, high paying work. How can they go about developing these skills like you have in order to succeed? Svet Dimitrov: That’s a great question. And I think I get this question almost every single day by somebody following me on social media. Rob Marsh: That’s interesting. Yeah. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah. Well, probably not every day, but at least a couple of times per week, because obviously they can see I’m not a non-native speaker of English. and they would see that I’m somewhat successful. Obviously, I can be a lot more successful and I strive to be successful every single day, at least by 1% as James Clear writes in his book. But yeah, I think the most important thing is to really practice copywriting every single day. It doesn’t have to be a lot of time at the beginning, but if you say, I’m going to write just twice per week. It could be more time, let’s say two hours per week during the weekend. You could write for 10 minutes every single day, which would be less than two hours. It would be probably 70 minutes, right? But it would be better because you would be practicing your craft every day.  So I advise that people devote, let’s say, that doesn’t have to be a time frame. It could be like 300 words, 400 words, 500 words, even less every single day. And once they see it’s getting easier and easier, they can ramp up that either the time they spend on writing or the number of words. So I would say, Practicing every single day is the most important thing. The second most important or their kind of equal is to read good copy or read any kind of copy every single day. Obviously, the better the copy, the better. And then the third thing, and probably the most important if you want to grow really fast is to hire a coach or a mentor who would help you go there. I think that’s, I actually don’t think, I believe that’s what helped me really increase my income by maybe like six or seven times between twenty twenty and twenty twenty three. And now probably even more in the last few years is when I started investing in courses in my masterminds. As I mentioned I was part of Copy Accelerator for a few years and meeting those people who are more experienced than you, you will learn more about copywriting—how to write better copy, but also because those people are successful and the people you surround yourself with are very very important. Factor in your success because if you’re just around people who are struggling to get there or haven’t done it. you will also struggle obviously you can’t surround yourself only with people that are super successful because if there’s a very big difference between their level and your level you will probably get demotivated in a way so there’s like there should be people that are a little bit lower at a lower level than you, but also people at a much higher level, so we have this incentive to just become better and better and better. So I’d say, just to sum up, write every day, read every day, and write every day, or write, or hire a mentor so we don’t write in a vacuum. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I asked about non native speakers, but all three of those things apply to native speakers as well. If you want to copywriting, you should be doing all three of these things. So there’s, there’s not, there’s not a secret sauce to any of this. It’s put in the work, put in the reps, get feedback and do it all over again. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah, so for non-native speakers, I would say that they shouldn’t like, for example, with me, it was very different because I came from an academic background. I had my master’s degree. I did a lot of research. I was trying to impress people with my vocabulary. And when I started my travel blog, and my travel and lifestyle blog, I would try to flex my vocabulary, which I think was working against me when I switched from content writing, which is probably fine, but still, you don’t have to learn English at a superb level, you have to understand the nuances, but you have to write really basic copy. It’s better to write very, very basic copy at first, no less, say, a thousand words or less, than to have a very rich like a very rich vocabulary but then you want to be trying to sound very very weird and not conversational so for example probably. You want a lot of people on this. while listening to this podcast episode would recognize Evaldo from Brazil, Evaldo Albuquerque, I think it’s. Rob Marsh: Yeah, he’s the one exception most people mention when they say, oh, anybody can make it if Evaldo can make it. Svet Dimitrov: And yeah, the idea is like, especially because Fran told me, because he’s a friend with Evaldo, his English was like five words, like 10, 15 years ago. So the thing that really helped him write a very good copy was his limited level of English, because he would have a very limited amount of words to use, and he had to make the best use of them. And I think there’s a lot to be said that where you write very common conversational copy, most of the time it would work, where sometimes people would just write this very long sentences very long leads that are like this first sentence is like twenty five words or fifty words or whatever life i’ve seen very different cases. This is gonna work most of the time against them because the market most of the time is not. Sophisticated at all so we have to write at the very basic level between the fifth and sixth grade sometimes even lower. So every single job jane or john can understand. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. This has been great learning from you. I’ve got a couple of ideas, especially around the personalized website. I just think there’s such a great idea there to share. So I appreciate you sharing all of this stuff, Svet. If people want to follow you and see what you’re up to, where’s the best place to go? Svet Dimitrov: I would say they would follow me on Facebook. Maybe they can also go to my website, copywriting.com, and I have a few links there that they can follow me on social media. But if they type my name, Svetoslav Dimitrov, or Svet Dimitrov on most social media, most active on Facebook and X, You and I actually connected on LinkedIn. I kind of quit LinkedIn, but I’m still checking, but I’m not going to be posting because I just don’t see the value in it right now. Maybe I will come back later with a better strategy. But yeah, these are the most the places that I’m most active on. Rob Marsh: I’ll link to those in the show notes for this episode so that people can connect with you easily. And yeah, I appreciate you sharing everything that you have. This has been a fun conversation. So thanks, Sven. Svet Dimitrov: Yeah, it was my pleasure, Rob. Thank you so much for inviting me. Rob Marsh: Thanks to Svet for sharing his story and his path to becoming a successful copywriter. As we were talking, Svet mentioned that he doesn’t have a website. Obviously, that was a big part of the initial part of our conversation. His old website doesn’t talk about his current business at all, and he doesn’t refer people there. And he instead uses landing pages customized specifically to each prospect that he’s vetting in his discovery process.  Naturally, I wanted to know more about this. We talked a bit about it here, but to see what he’s sharing with his clients. Can’t really do that on a podcast. So this thing that I’m calling the no website website, I asked Svet after we finished recording, if he would share this idea, this no website website with me. And he sent me a couple of examples to look at. It’s so simple. And I think the no website website idea is one that more copywriters could benefit from using, especially copywriters who are just starting out or who are doing a lot of pitching and want to personalize what their prospects are seeing on their website. So I asked Svet if he would share that exact template that he uses and walk through a couple of examples for the members of The Copywriter Underground.  Like I said, this idea is simple, but the real power of the No Website website is that no one else is doing it. So it stands out, which is a huge part of getting clients to pay attention to you. If you want to see how to use this No Website website strategy to land clients, jump into The Copywriter Underground before March 12th, and you’ll see what Svet does and how you can use this strategy to land your own six-figure clients. You can learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.  

It’s pretty common to hear copywriters recommend that you study old sales pages and even sales emails, but what about old magazine ads? The kind that are printed on paper in actual periodicals? Today, where so much advertising happens online or in your social media feed, Ad writing is a bit of a lost art form. But that doesn’t mean we can’t learn from it. In the 435th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I interviewed Lewis Folkard who breaks down old ads for his newsletter readers. And he shared what copywriters have to learn from his approach. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: Lewis’ Website The Olive Ad Breakdown The Silk Cut ad The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Copywriters seem to revere old books by Eugene Schwartz and Vic Schwab. But what about old ads? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. If you’ve been a copywriter for more than a few weeks, you’ve probably heard other more experienced copywriters mention books like Breakthrough Advertising by Eugene Schwartz, How to Write an Advertisement by Victor Schwab or Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples. They make up a large part of the official cannon of copywriting. In fact, David Ogilvy once said no one should be allowed to write a single word of copy until they had finished reading Caple’s book seven times. Of course there are new books that ought to be added… books by Joe Sugarman, Ann Handley and Matthew Dix.  In addition to books, there are a lot of copywriters who like to study old sales pages. They create swipe files full of them. I do this. My swipe file has more than 1,000 differnent sales pages I’ve collected over the last decade. Some copywriters even suggest you hand write sales pages as part of your learning. I don’t go that far, but I think you can learn a lot by studying the persuasion techniques that copywriters have used in their work. But what about ads? One page with an image, headline, and a few lines of copy?  Are they worth studying? And what can we learn from them? My guest on this episode is Lewis Folkard. Lewis has made a bit of a name for himself by picking old print ads from advertising award books, analyzing them, and writing about why they are effective or not. Lewis’ breakdowns are more than interesting reading, they’re mini-lessons on copywriting, attention-getting and persuasion. He told me why he does it and how it’s impacted his business in this interview. Stick around to hear what he had to say. As you might expect, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve mentioned that I’ve been rebuilding the content vault and adding a ton of additional workshops to it. Workshops taught be expert copywriters like Parris Lampropoulos, Joanna Weibe, Stefan Georgi, Jack Forde, Chanti Zak, Laura Belgray and dozens of others. And it’s not just copywriters, we’ve got marketing experts teaching how to build funnels, how to market using tools like Linkedin and Pinterest, how to put yourself in the right mindset to succeed and so much more. And that’s just the workshops. There are dozens of templates, a community of like-minded writers holding each other accountable, and monthly coaching with me. It’s time you joined us inside. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu And now, my interview with Lewis Folkard… Lewis, welcome to the podcast. I would love to hear your story and how you became a copywriter. Lewis Folkard: Okay, well, I mean, I guess a lot of copywriters say very similar things in the sense that I feel like I’ve always had an interest in people and communications. I mean, some of the earlier nonfiction books that I read were kind of about human psychology and communications. I think there was a How to Win Friends and Influence People and another one by Brian Tracy, I believe. But I was young and just always enjoyed learning about how the human mind works and how we can kind of translate that or how not to say how we can, but how that translates into behavior. But yeah, a career into marketing to copywriting and marketing started. Uh, I guess alongside uni, uh, I graduated with a degree in materials engineering and had every intention of following that path. Um, and. I don’t know, really, I don’t know how or what the, the kind of compelling idea was to, to leave and to start marketing, but it kind of happened. And of course, when it had a small business online selling vintage jewelry and yeah, I sort of helped him out as best I could. and end up discovering copywriting and haven’t really looked back since, to be fair. It’s sort of scratched itches that I didn’t realize I had. I’ve kind of always been more sort of mathsy, so to speak. Numbers, binary answers, right or wrong, you know, this either works or it doesn’t. And heading into copywriting in this kind of world was like, well, actually two opposing ideas can both be true. Uh, and it’s kind of challenged me in ways that I never really understood, but I really enjoy those kinds of challenges. There’s obviously loads of paradoxes in human behavior, especially consumer behavior. So. Rob Marsh: A lot of copywriters come from different backgrounds. You’re the first person I’ve talked to. It doesn’t mean you’re the first copywriter that’s had a materials engineering background, but that is a big jump. Engineering to selling jewelry is your first client, but marketing, copywriting. Are there skills that you learned in materials engineering as an engineer that are directly applicable to what you do as a copywriter? That’s a good question. Lewis Folkard: I think a lot of materials engineering is like looking at components that have broken and you then have to kind of find out why they’ve broken and how you can not help. So they don’t break in the future, basically. Um, so reverse engineering. those kind of concepts, I think have always stuck with me. That’s something that kind of pulled me into that in the first place. Um, and it’s definitely something I do now, especially with like rewriting old ads and sort of looking at how they work. Um, it’s kind of sort of leaned into that a lot more and understanding how some of the best performing pieces of copy work it’s, and help me sort of reverse engineer and apply those to my own pieces, I guess. Rob Marsh: So you started working for your friend, selling vintage jewelry. How did you turn that now into a business? You got the first thing done, probably for not a lot of money, I’m guessing. How do you leverage a free project into now lending clients and doing the kind of work that you want to do? Lewis Folkard: Uh, okay. So, well, I, I kind of did it on the side. So I did follow the materials engineering path for probably around six months after graduating. Uh, and I was sort of doing this on the side and helping out in the evenings as best I could. And yeah, he’s running ads on, on Facebook and Instagram. And I sort of wanted to find out, how can I help these ads perform better? As probably no surprise, first client, you’re a bit like a deer in headlights. You don’t know what’s going on and everything. And yeah, that’s where I ended up finding copywriting, in particular, Joe Sugarman’s copywriting handbook. And yeah, I sort of stuck at the job for a little while. And I guess it’s kind of the case of a lot of things. When you go on to a path that you’re kind of in control of, you’re like your own sort of freelancer. You’re in charge of what you earn, effectively. it seemed a lot more kind of fulfilling and inspiring and exciting. So I ended up leaving that job. It wasn’t because I didn’t like the job, but it was just, it was more stimulating doing my own thing. And yeah, I remember the first day that I sort of left and woke up and was like, well, what do I do today? Kind of thinking like, how is this going to work? How am I going to get money from this kind of thing? And yeah, I ended up, I actually led into, again, at the ads that I still look at now, Um, it was like, well, I need to kind of keep learning. I’m, I’m certainly no, no copywriter at the minute and just get reading books. And then I sort of found old pieces of direct mail and sort of thought, Oh, that technique looks familiar. I’ve seen that somewhere else. And that kind of spurred on the idea to, well, why don’t I sort of look at these in more detail and throw myself into the shoes of these copywriters and see why they’re saying and doing what they’re doing to effectively help me do the same thing. Um, and yeah, it’s a practice that I’ve continued to do since. Rob Marsh: And were you cold pitching clients? Were you reaching out to friends and family? I mean, this is really the big challenge for a lot of copywriters. How do you find the clients? Lewis Folkard: I was in some ways fortunate and in some ways unfortunate. There was a couple of local networking events that I went to. I met a few people. And a few months after that, nothing directly happened immediately after that. that, um, that event and then COVID happened and everybody started to look to move things online. And I was sort of positioning myself as like a, an ads copywriter. And when everyone was sort of like, well, I need to find someone who can help me bring my business online. And I happened to be there with a few touch points. I met a few other people, um, and a local agency. And that sort of gave me the first level of experience I needed. And it’s kind of grown from there really few agencies and yeah. Rob Marsh: How does that work working with the agencies? Again, this is something that we talk about a lot in our programs that agencies can be great clients. Obviously, you make the connection, but what does the workflow feel like? Are you asking them for work from time to time? Are they just dropping things in your lap? What is that whole process? Lewis Folkard: I mean, it does depend on the agency. Different agencies run it differently. The one that I worked with the closest was that, okay, we’d had projects come through and do you want to work on it? Yes or no. And then a brief came through and that was basically how it worked. So I kind of got to miss out on all the onboarding, which in some ways was nice, but I feel like that experience could have been helpful at the start because there’s lots to learn like later on, but it was also handy that I could just kind of get given a brief, do the work and get paid for it. And at the start, I just needed to get experience under my belt and learn the ropes really. And that definitely helped. Rob Marsh: So your first project was free. As you moved into agencies, help me understand how your income has grown over time. Lewis Folkard: I mean, I do less work for agencies now. I definitely do more independent. But that’s just, I guess, having kind of roots in one place and being able to kind of build more of a foundation to build a business from. At the start, I was kind of naive to how. I thought it’d be a lot easier than what it was, put it that way. And that was definitely a wake up call. Again, that first day was thinking, oh, right. Okay. I don’t have anything to do today. I also don’t have any money coming in. How am I going to do this? And you, I did cold pitch as well. I tried a lot of things and you certainly expose weaknesses when you’re, when you’re cold pitching, because it needs to be, it’s a very difficult thing to do. Um, and especially with no experience, I’d, I’d, I’d love to look back on some of those early emails to see what they look like now. Um, and yeah, just kind of building a base and. Agencies have been really helpful as like a, an extra, an extra step up. So when things have been tough, they’re like another, another source of income basically. So, yeah. Rob Marsh: be helpful. So one of the ways that you got on my radar is your newsletter and the breakdowns that you do there. It might be interesting to do a breakdown of some of those earlier pitches that you were sending out. You break down old ads and basically talk about what works, what doesn’t work, and your thinking around them. I would love to hear the origin of how that came about, why you started sharing those thoughts, and then maybe we can talk a little bit about the process of actually breaking down ads to understand how they’re working or not working. Lewis Folkard: No, of course. So yeah, it started off very, very early when I had very little copywriting experience. It was like, well, a lot of copywriters sort of preach writing or rewriting old direct mail pieces. And I did that. But I really wanted to sort of throw myself in it further, I guess, and to really understand like, well, what does this line actually do? It’s all well and good writing and having a similar style to, say, Gary Halbert or Richard Foster. But you kind of need to understand the why behind it as well as that. So yeah, with a little bit of sort of copywriting books, again, Joe Sugarman’s copywriting handbook was definitely the one that taught me a lot of these different techniques that are going on. And I started to spot them in other pieces and I’m thinking, oh, I could actually look at that. I had a leaflet come through the door and thought, oh, they’re saying that because that does that, for example. And just even basic things of like, well, we’ve had 8,000 reviews. Well, that actually performs a function that’s not there just for the sake of it. And obviously when you’re new, you don’t realize these things. And I sort of pieced it all together and it’s kind of developed from there really. Rob Marsh: So maybe we can take a look at it. I don’t know if a specific example comes to mind, but let’s walk through that process with an ad. And do you start at the top and look at the headline, how the images work together? Let’s kind of go through the process. Lewis Folkard: Yeah, so I think it was probably three years ago, I met a copywriter, a well-known copywriter over here, Lawrence Bloom, and he was in a lot of the annuals that I get the ads from. So that was a great touch point for me. But I have probably close to 40 old advertising annuals stored away that I literally flick through and think, oh, that one actually looks quite interesting, that one grabs my attention. And that is the first thing that I do is find one that grabs my attention and then I sort try and dissect it. Uh, and I probably got enough, enough, enough ads in those books to last me the next 10 years, I reckon. Um, but there’s no like immediate or performance based things. It’s, it’s done more from like a creative point of light. Well, sometimes the timing could be right. You might see this ad and think today it doesn’t do much for me, but in two weeks time, when you’re working on a similar brief, it could be like a stepping stone to something that helps you. And these breakdowns now serve more of a function of that. of like, well, these are inspiration. There’s nothing necessarily that these are the best performing ones. These are ones that are obviously somewhat respectable because they’re in the annuals themselves, but it’s more as like a creative stepping stone, I guess is the best way to put it. Rob Marsh: So do you have a favorite ad that as you’ve gone through these, you’re like, wow, this, this one is just tops. Lewis Folkard: Oh, the one I always mention is Richard Foster did one for Sainsbury’s, which is a supermarket over here. And he did it for an olive of all things. And It’s just the cadence and the rhythm of how he writes was just something so meaningless and olive. And it flowed so well like a story. And I thought, you know, if someone could do this for an olive, well, what can they do with something that’s actually genuinely quite exciting? Yeah. It’s definitely one that stands out. Rob Marsh: And then you do the breakdowns, but obviously you’re learning from them. At some point you started sharing these as well. Lewis Folkard: Yeah, that was a mere coincidence. I think I just thought, you know, I’ll just post it on LinkedIn as again, desperate for work at the very start. I think I looked at a smoothie bottle first was how it started and was like, well, they had about six or seven lines of copy on that. And I thought, well, each line or each sentence had like a function that at least it looked like to me. And I shared it online and it did. for relative speaking, it did quite well. It went quite far. And I thought, well, why don’t I try these with another one? And that was way before I got these annuals as well. And the annuals sort of just ignited that excitement for it and I’ve carried on looking at them. Rob Marsh: Obviously, you’ve been sharing them, not just on LinkedIn, but you started an email list. How has that grown? And what’s the impact that that’s had on your business? Lewis Folkard: Uh, it’s, it’s still growing for sure. Um, it’s something that I’ve, I’ve kind of done for the selfish that sounds for my own interests, um, than for generating business. It’s more than I want to help, help excite other creatives and see, you know, like the work. That’s come before us has helped shape and more of the industry that we work in. And I don’t want to kind of lose sight of that. Um, Yeah, this is like we as humans haven’t changed that much and the drivers behind these ads are still relevant today. They still tick the same kind of evolutionary desires and tap into those. And I just want to create a way of showing, you know, all these things have come before us. They’re not useless. I think many other industries like film, music, they all look back to see what’s come before them and to learn from. those that have, again, shaped and molded their industry, whereas in marketing, we’re very quick to dismiss, I think, like looking for the next silver bullet. And I think it’s important to look back to see what’s come before us. Rob Marsh: As you’ve done that, have you compiled a list or you’ve got like, hey, these are the persuasion techniques or the headline techniques, the hooks that seem to be working. Have you kind of figured out like, okay, these are the formulas and maybe you start there or is it just really more of just kind of an artistic exercise? Lewis Folkard: I mean, this is probably more the engineering side, the math side of it. I have a very large spreadsheet of all the books and ads that I’ve looked at, and I’ve kind of segmented them all out into different techniques. Okay, this is for headlines. Is this for boosting credibility? Is this for, you know, like smoothing transition between a headline to the first line of the copy? I’ve got that and I use that and I often refer back to that to kind of get the ball rolling. But yeah, the first ads, the first ones I look at are more just a gut instinct. And then I sort of look to dig more because there’s normally more going on than what meets the eye initially. And I guess that’s what makes a good ad a good ad, is that we don’t realize that it’s sort of a sales pitch that doesn’t feel like a sales pitch. And I yeah first first is always got feeling where this is interesting and I’m like well why is it interesting and then I sort of start probing and looking back at other ads and techniques and they’re always like stepping stones they just keep building out so yeah the documents that plan these end up getting quite long and it’s quite difficult to cut out what what doesn’t go in and what does go in again it’s the same as all copywriting is in that sense. So yeah, there’s a big extensive spreadsheet that maybe, I don’t know, I might turn into something that’s actually useful, but it’s just my eyes only and it’s quite a mess, but it works. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’m curious. I’d love to see it. But I wonder, what are the techniques that you see happening over and over and over that are just clearly like, these are the table stakes, the basics that every ad really ought to have? Lewis Folkard: That is a good question. I mean, there’s normally some form of storytelling, and it’s kind of the old cliche that story sells. But how those stories come across they differ between the ads. And some of them again, some of the ones I look at, I guess, for the listeners, like, are not always copy heavy. Sometimes they are just an image in the headline. Sometimes they are copy, or very heavy body copy. And I guess there’s something that we can use for our longer forms of writing, because you know, the images, our brains process images a lot faster than what they do words. And a long piece of copy isn’t usually just words, there is normally some kind of imagery that goes with it or media. I like to look at visual metaphors. So I’ve tried to include those in longer form pieces of copy where I can. But obviously you like, you can’t overcomplicate it too much and sort of throw too much to the reader. So how you present that is normally a bit of a challenge. But yeah, I’d say a lot of the ads I’ve looked at have some kind of visual metaphor. They do a lot of work by pulling in symbols from other areas. One that comes to mind, I actually wrote a post for LinkedIn yesterday. that’s coming in the next few weeks. And it was just a picture of a happy baby for cow and gate baby food. I’m not sure if you guys have that over, over the pond. Rob Marsh: At least I’m not familiar with that brand, but baby food for sure. Lewis Folkard: Yeah. And it was just a means of having, having a picture of a happy baby on the front with like, it was the red and was very slight symbolic of the brand between a cow and the gate in the imagery. It was like a dad holding, holding a baby in the field. And Happy Baby does a lot of work without us really thinking about it. There’s so much that goes on sort of subconsciously that helps us process and evokes a lot of emotion without really having to say anything at all. And we can use those same techniques in our copy to deliver more pack for less punch, I guess. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think that’s a really important point. I have a ton of old advertising annuals as well, from the 80s and 90s. And as I look through them, oftentimes just for inspiration or just to put myself maybe in a more creative mind, one of the things that I have realized is so much of the work back then was in this golden age of magazines, when visuals were really important, copy was sort of shrinking in ads. And the challenge for a lot of copywriters is, We’re hired to write words, not necessarily ads. Most magazines, so many magazines are defunct now, and that kind of art has shrunk. It’s still there in places. But as far as applying these kinds of ideas into blog posts or emails or so much of the content that we’re asked to create today as a copywriter, what do you see is the best way to do that? Lewis Folkard: I remember reading a book probably a couple of years ago by Orlando Wood. And it was sort of discussed—the different ways that different sides of the brain have kind of dominated in different sort of phases of history and how that kind of looks in art. And something that we see a lot today is kind of a quote, kind of left brain society, so to speak, is that everything is very short term and kind of spoon fed that a lot of the better ads from way back when where they sort of trusted the reader to figure them out a bit more. And I feel like that applies to all copywriting is that we make it too simple and too obvious. It’s kind of a sign of the times, I guess, in some ways, but we can just put more trust into our reader to figure out what we mean. We don’t have to state every little detail, we can let their minds figure things out. And our brains generally enjoy doing that as well. And so if those positive associations come from thinking and solving a sort of a problem, so to speak, then those associations sort of stick with who they’re getting them from. And that helps come to mind sooner, which then helps advertising and copywriting in the future. So there’s like a long-term effect of letting our reader do a bit of work, basically. Rob Marsh: Yeah, I really like that. I’ve noticed you’ve mentioned that a few times. In fact, I’ve got a swipe file where I’ve collected what I call puzzle ads. It’s where you’re basically forced to complete the connection between the headline or the image. One series that I remember, you’re probably too young to remember these live, they probably are in your annuals, is Silk Cut Cigarettes, which was a brand in the UK. had an outdoor campaign where there was always some combination between a sharp object and this purple, this beautiful purple silk. And I remember seeing them all over Scotland when I was there in the 80s. And I just kind of fell in love with these ads that were just, it was intended to make your brain have to think about what was being advertised because it was not clear. And as the campaign builds, obviously every time you see this purple silk with a pair of scissors or a knife or something, you started to see the silk cut and it’s the kind of, it stuck with me. And there are other campaigns that do something similar. Absolute Vodka in the 90s ran, they’re basically puzzle ads where you kind of had to figure out what was the bottle and what was the connection to the thing. Lewis Folkard: I think I’ve seen one, it was like an x-ray bottle, wasn’t it? Yeah, there’s all kinds, right? Rob Marsh: So they would have one that would say like, Absolute Manhattan, and it would be a photograph looking down at New York City and Central Park. was shaped as an absolute bottle. And which, you know, it’s not, but you would look at it like, oh, a familiar image, tweaked a little bit to, you know, advertise this cool brand. So that’s a little harder to pull off in a blog post or in an email, but there are probably ways to create these kinds of puzzles and connections and help our readers think a little bit so that, you know, like you said, they’re spending a little mental energy and it makes the work more memorable and more effective. Lewis Folkard: It’s definitely a tough balance to get right. Because if you make it look too complex, then no one’s going to even bother attempting it. But if you make it too simple, it’s kind of insulting that it’s just boring and not entertaining and engaging to look at. And if we’re putting ourselves in front of all these people in all these different ways, the least we can do is make it somewhat enjoyable to like to read. And yeah, there’s obviously loads of different ways that we can do it. And I just they always put a smile on my face, seeing something that, you know, just the two or three seconds of thought, you think, ah, it’s normally the product, but then like completes the message as well, is kind of the missing piece. But that’s, again, it’s a sign, again, of more left brain advertising is that there’s no kind of thought, it’s, you need to be able to prove it, and there’s too many reasons for something not to work, whereas more right brain, which is more like sort of dialogue based, and there wasn’t much about the product in a product ad, for example. Um, that was something that, you know, you trusted the reader to fill out the archive. The actual answer to this is the brand of advertising here, whereas now it seems too risky, but yeah. Rob Marsh: So if you, as you’ve spent so much time looking at these ads, dissecting them, trying to figure out what works, how has that impacted the work that you do for your clients? It’s really helped me sell work, um, for one. So how, how does that work? Lewis Folkard: For example, if I’ve written a website, it’s a lot easier for me to justify each line because I know what techniques I’m using here and why that’s being used on this page here and this position on this page. And obviously everything should earn its right, but it’s sometimes difficult to kind of justify everything. But these, having the techniques and seeing it in different formats have really helped. They’ve also helped me critique other people’s work. So in different sort of like groups that I’m in, if we’re sharing different pieces of work, it’s easy to sort of pinpoint and say, well, have you thought about doing this technique to add credibility here instead of the one you’ve used, for example. So there’s different ways like that and obviously then I feel like a lot of the creative decisions that we use, like obviously we have constraints to work with this undeniably some science behind what we do or a lot of science but there is a little bit of wiggle room for some creative work and a lot of these decisions that we make come from our unconscious and the more that we can kind of draw attention to those in different ways, whether we study, whether we write them, we then kind of give us a conscious, that ability to kind of use them in our work. And they come out sometimes naturally, or sometimes we have to kind of like actually apply them and go back and intentionally insert them sometimes. And it depends what we’re working with, but it has helped for sure. Rob Marsh: So I’d love to shift our conversation a little bit and just hear more about how you work. What does your typical day look like when you get up and start thinking about a project or working on a project? How does that all come together? Okay. Lewis Folkard: So for the last three, three years or so. Um, I have just been living out of a backpack, traveling the world with my girlfriend. So my days do vary quite a bit. Uh, I usually, depending on which side of the world or my clients have always stayed in, in the UK. So sometimes that involves me working in the evening. Sometimes it involves me working in the mornings, depending on where I am. Um, but yeah, I normally keep my evenings aside where I can. I tend to prefer to work in the mornings and just sort of do the, to eat the big frog first, I think is the saying goes and to do the heaviest, most kind of demanding task and then save emails and calls for afternoons as best I can. Rob Marsh: And I mean, traveling and working is a challenge. It’s one of those things. I think a lot of people who work for themselves think, oh, I can do this so that I can travel. A lot of us don’t travel. It’s something that I’ve done with my family a bit. Talk about some more of the challenges of that because it’s not just as easy as saying, well, I’m going to work late or I’m going to work early. In my experience, my family and I, we lived in Europe for seven or eight months while I was working. The balance between everybody else wanting to go do something, me having to get work done, it was not an easy thing to strike. Lewis Folkard: I know it’s yeah, it’s definitely posed its challenges. I’ve quite enjoyed working from different places and seeing how different places kind of inspire different trails of thought. Yeah, it’s been interesting to observe how people act in different places and scenarios. And it’s definitely granted me that opportunity. But the lack of routine has been very challenging. So sometimes it’s a matter of squeezing work into an evening if I’ve got a flight and I’m changing time zones, for example, I know I’m not gonna be able to do much the next few days. And just settling into that took a little bit of time. But it’s been exciting, but it is definitely difficult. And yeah, trying to find times where You have to sort of think on tap rather than like plan when you’re going to have your times and you don’t know when that’s going to be. If you’ve got an hour before a flight, okay, well, it’s what can I do that’s not too demanding here and saving and it forces you to sort of manage your time a lot better, I think is the best way to put it. What are your favorite places where you’ve been? Probably Thailand, I think takes the top, the top draw. And why is that? The food, the beaches, the people. It’s just, yeah, it’s lovely. Good coffee shops. And there’s always good places to work. So, I think that takes the biscuit. But I’m back home now.  Rob Marsh: And when I reached out to you, I know you were in Australia. And what are some of the other places that you’ve been? Lewis Folkard: So we did, I guess, Mexico, Columbia, we’ve been in and around Southeast Asia from like Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia. That’s amazing. Yeah, Australia, we’ve done obviously a lot of places in Europe as well. It’s a lot closer for us. Rob Marsh: And were you carrying your annuals with you or how are you finding the images? I’ve got a suitcase packed full of them. Yeah, exactly. That’s heavy stuff. Lewis Folkard: That was a lot of preparation. So I took enough pictures of the annuals before I went and I’ve got an album that’s got close to a thousand pictures of different ads in there that I kind of pull from. And when I need to find another one for the next newsletter or however many in advance I’m doing, I’ll just go through and see, okay, this one’s really taken my fancy here. But yeah, I had to really think about what information I was going to need because I can’t just flick back through them books and find the bits. So there’s a lot of note-taking that goes involved into that, but I’ve got them with me now. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. So now that you’re back home, at least temporarily, are you looking at your business differently? Do you do anything differently because you’re in the home base or is it more of the same? Lewis Folkard: I mean, I’ve only been back about a month, um, but I definitely have the. The desire to, it’s one I, I can do the same thing. I can follow a fixed routine, which is nice. And I can actually go and meet some of these clients in person, which I’ve not been able to do. So I’m hoping it’s going to have a positive impact in that sense that, you know, I can solidify the relationship a bit better than what I can via email and video call. And also just the kind of to go out and speak to local people and attend more in-person events that I’ve not been able to do. Um, so there’s. It’s happening slowly. Um, but again, I’ve only been back a few weeks to kind of make the most of that. Rob Marsh: So where do you see your business going from, from now and, you know, in the coming years? Lewis Folkard: I would like just to keep doing what I’m doing really, I really enjoy and ever since I started it, I’ve enjoyed it and I still enjoy it to this day. Obviously it’d be, I mean to say work fewer hours, I don’t know. I think the best thing about being a freelancer is that you can pick and choose how and when you want to work. If you want to do more, you can. If you want to do less, you can. Obviously, it comes with its risks and challenges, of course, but I’m really content with how things are and don’t want to change too much, really, as naive as that sounds. Rob Marsh: That makes sense. So if you could go back in time, you know, to Lewis, who is maybe, you know, just coming out of uni, materials engineering, you know, working on that first client, what kind of advice would you give him in order to help him make progress or do things differently, you know, have success faster or something like that? Lewis Folkard: It’s all kind of come in waves. I think I would tell myself that when things are good, they probably won’t stay this way. If you’ve got lots of projects coming through all at once, there’s going to be periods where these projects do not continue, even if you think they’re going to continue. So keep planting seeds for the future and don’t put that off. Just keep doing that consistently. That’s been a lesson that’s been quite difficult over the years, and especially when I’ve been other parts of the world. sort of really relying on people finding me via online somewhere or another, is just to keep going. Don’t stop with planting seeds because you need to keep nurturing them as you go along. Rob Marsh: Obviously what you’re posting on LinkedIn, that’s planting seeds. What other ways do you plant seeds in order to connect with clients? Lewis Folkard: I’m in a few different groups of copywriters and business owners that I now attend to as well. They were online, but I’m now able to go out and see them in person. I mean, just doing things that I quite enjoy doing, and you never know who you meet or who that person knows. There’s been a lot of relationships and clients that have come from sort of word of mouth referrals that very, very slim off chances. And now I kind of have this idea, you know, well, you never know who you’re going to meet and who you’re going to talk to is just to try and spike up conversations in day to day. If I’m out in coffee shops, you never know who that person might know. And that’s proved pretty, pretty positive. Rob Marsh: So, yeah, that’s, I think, a really critical piece of advice that I think a lot of people need to hear over and over and over. is these relationships matter. Striking up conversations matters. Creating friendships matters. And I know a lot of people shy away from networking, the concept that you’re out there looking for work or asking for work. But when it comes right down to it, people work with the people they like and the people that they know. And the more we can get out there, the better it is for all of our businesses. Lewis Folkard: 100%. And yeah, it’s been, again, a tough lesson to learn over the months, over the years that, you know, you really don’t know who you’re talking to. And sometimes the least expecting ones can be the ones that provide the most, whether it’s on LinkedIn, whether it’s in person, you know, you just have these conversations and there are opportunities to learn about people as well, which obviously is a very big part of what we do. And yeah, if you kind of see it as a game and a bit of fun, you can Have a good time doing it. Rob Marsh: And I do. Any other advice that you would offer copywriters looking to grow their businesses and do some of the things that you’re doing? Lewis Folkard: Again, plant the seeds and just be consistent that these things, I was naive thinking, you know, within six months I’ll have all these clients and all these different things to do. And it takes a lot longer than what you think you’re going to take. I don’t want to dishearten people, but the reality is that, yeah, these things do take time and anything that comes quickly normally goes quickly. So if it’s a slow builder, you’re normally in a safer position in the long run. So prepare for the future and yeah, just keep, keep planting those seeds. Rob Marsh: Amazing. Lewis, if people want to see your creative breakdowns, be on your list or find wherever it is that you’re posting, where should they go? So my website is lewisfolkard.co.uk. Lewis Folkard: That’s L-E-W-I-S-F-O-L-K-A-R-D.co.uk. And yeah, the newsletter was on there as well if you wish to sign up to that. If not, I’ve got all the past ones on my blog for you to look through. So they’re all there. Rob Marsh: We’ll link to it in the show notes. We’ll also link to the olive, the breakdown that you have of the olive thing. I remember when that one came out and you’re right, it’s interesting. If a copywriter can wax poetic about a single olive, you know that they can write. So we’ll link to that so that people can find it. I really appreciate you taking some time this morning to talk to me.  Lewis Folkard: Perfect. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.  Rob Marsh: Thanks, Lewis.  Thanks to Lewis Folkard for sharing his story, details about his newsletter, and how he breaks down older ads.  Breakdowns are tremendously useful. Seeing how other copywriters think about copy, copy written by them or even by others, that helps us see techniques so that we can find them in other copy that we read later or even copy that we write ourselves. In fact, having an experienced copywriter look at your work and make suggestions about how to improve it is perhaps the best way to see things that you miss and ultimately it makes you a better writer. Lewis mentioned that we as humans haven’t changed all that much over the past centuries, let alone decades. So we can learn a lot by looking back at what has come before.  And Lewis didn’t mention this, but one of the reasons that I like to look back at old ads is that it puts me in a different frame of mind for thinking about headlines and hooks. There’s something about studying clever ideas that helps you flex your own clever muscle and can make your headlines more intriguing. These kinds of reviews are something that we do a lot of in The Copywriter Underground.  I even broke down one of my all-time favorite sales pages by Gary Bencevenga, showing how Gary uses more than a dozen different persuasion techniques. I think there’s 18 or 19 of them that he uses in a single sales page. I’ve also broken down web pages, sales pages, social media posts, emails for different members of The Copywriter Underground. You can see them all inside The Copywriter Underground.  If you’re not already a member, you can jump in at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.   

Everyone starts from scratch. But what if you had to earn six figures a year from the very first day you were in business? That’s the challenge Jon Morrow had. He’s my guest for the 434th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. I asked him about how he did it. We also talked about how he is using A.I. in his business (his approach is pretty good, which is what you’d expect given he’s been using it for more than ten years). We also talked about what he would do if he had to start over… he suggested a strategy I’d never heard before. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. Stuff to check out: SmartBlogger The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Full Transcript: Rob Marsh:  Would you be willing to work for free—for two full years—in exchange for a simple favor? This is The Copywriter Club Podcast. You already know this but succeeding as a content writer or a copywriter is not easy. And building a reputation when you’re just starting out is a huge challenge. But what if you knew that you needed to earn six figures a year, beginning on the day you launch your business. No time to ramp up. No time to figure out client acquisition. No time to create and test the products and services you offer. You have no choice but to succeed at a high-level from day one. What would you do? That’s the challenge Content Strategist and founder of SmartBlogger, Jon Morrow, faced. But he did it. He succeeded in creating a six-figure business from day one. Jon shares how he did it and why it was necessary in the first few minutes of our interview. And once you hear what he says, you may find yourself without an excuse for accomplishing big things in your business. Because if Jon can do it with the limitations he faced, you can almost certainly do it even if the world is conspiring against you. I didn’t expect this when we set up the interview, but what Jon shares about how he uses A.I. in his business, to write sales letters, create courses, and run his businesses will either frighten you or inspire you to step up your writing game. His approach is impressive. As you listen to this episode, ask yourself these questions: What are you willing to give up in order to get what you really want? How are you diversifying and changing your business in the face of A.I.? What can you do differently to make sure your approach to email actually makes money for your business or your clients? And what can you do to create more connection and community with the people you want to work with? But before we get to all that, this episode is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. we’ve been rebuilding our content vault and adding a ton of additional workshops to it. These new workshops are jammed full of practical ideas for building your writing business, creating new products like VIP days, lead magnets and more, getting attention and building your authority, showing up on social media with the right content to attract your ideal clients and lots more. The more templates and training we add to The Underground, the more I realize there is a crazy amount of valuable resources, in addition to monthly coaching and regular copy critiques ready for you to use. And you can get immediate access for less than you spend on a dinner out with your family. Learn more at thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And now, my interview with Jon Morrow… Jon, welcome to the podcast. As I mentioned just before we started recording, you’ve been on my list for a long time to have as a guest. I think I’ve followed you or known of you for close to 15, maybe even more years than that. We’d like to start with your story. So I’m guessing that there might be one or two people in our audience who don’t know who you are. So tell us how you got to where you are. Jon Morrow: So yeah, my story has many chapters. So the thing about me that’s unusual is that I have muscular dystrophy and I can’t really move any part of my body except my face. I use Dragon, naturally speaking to type. I have people that take care of me around the clock. Despite that, I mean, I’ve built several successful businesses. I’ve written tons and tons of copies. And it hasn’t really held me back at all. So that’s the first piece that if you’re listening to the audio, you wouldn’t be able to hear me being nervous probably, except for my voice is a little scratchy. That’s one of the symptoms. But yeah, that’s a big part of my life. And then my career really got started when I went to work with a blog called CopyBlogger. That used to be huge. When I left Copyblogger, it was 35 million pages a month. A lot of the best writers in the world worked there. And I started out as a writer, eventually worked as an editor. and then started also learning and mastering copy while I was there. My first mentor was Brian Clark. My mentor after that was Neil Patel for a little while. After that, Frank Kern for a little while. I’ve worked with a lot of people and really been blessed to learn from the best of the best. Rob Marsh: One of the things that I love about your story is how you actually launched your own business. You know, as copywriters, we’re always thinking about offers and how to sell them. And you made an offer to Brian Clark at Copyblogger that to me is off the charts valuable for him. Would you mind just sharing that story? Because I think a lot of people don’t get started. They have excuses, you know, all of the reasons why they can’t do something. Obviously, that doesn’t work here, you know, if you’ve succeeded, obviously, you know, excuses aren’t enough, but you did something pretty original that made Brian take you on and then really launched your career. Jon Morrow: Yes, I was in the bad spot where I was dependent on Medicaid to pay my medical bills. It was about at the time 150 grand a year of medical bills that they were paying. But the limitation was they limited your income. You have to be in poverty to receive the service. So I couldn’t earn more than $800 a month. So I had to figure out a way out of that trap. What it meant was I couldn’t gradually scale up my income. I had to go from $800 a month and then immediately flip to $600 a month. And how do you do that? So I made a brand new deal that I would work with them and edit, hopefully, full-time for two years. And at the end of it, I would ask him for a favor, and he did not say no. And that was the deal. And the favor that I asked was that I wanted to email all of the subscribers to Copyblogger and tell them I was launching an agency and to endorse it. And that was it. That’s all I wanted for two years of work. And Brian did it. It was the only time he ever endorsed anyone. And I had my 500 clients overnight. I literally couldn’t help everyone who was coming to me. Rob Marsh: Did you know you were going to make that request when you started, you know, the two years? Or was it, hey, there’s just this favor I’m going to ask later? Jon Morrow: I didn’t know. Yeah. Rob Marsh: That, yeah, to me, that story is, I mean, in one instance, it’s great faith in your ability to, you know, figure something out and just knowing that you had the time to do it, but also in having Brian there to make good on that promise, which, yeah, I mean, sending you out to the entire client list of Copyblogger, I can’t think of a writer who wouldn’t want that kind of a thing. Jon Morrow: Yeah. And I mean, I guess there was, he had enough confidence in me to say, okay, I accept the deal. And I had enough trust in him because he always, everyone around him—he treated them well. So it wasn’t, I wasn’t really worried about, is he going to screw me over? because he never screwed anybody over. Everyone around him was happy to work with him. And because of that, we made a deal. And it really, one thing I would point out to anyone who’s just getting started, do you know that your reputation is infinitely more valuable than getting paid on a contract? I’m not saying you shouldn’t do both, but if you had to choose between accelerating your reputation and accelerating your bank account, choose your reputation over that. Rob Marsh: Yeah, really, really good advice. Did you launch SmartBlogger? Did you launch that at that time or had that been already going while you were writing for Brian? Jon Morrow: So, the order was I worked for Brian, then I did consulting and agency work for about a year. And I worked for him until he was one of my clients from my email. I helped Neil launch a blog called Kissmetrics. And we went from zero to a quarter million views a month in 16 days. And when I did that, I just looked at myself and I was like, why do you do this for other people and not yourself? You’re obviously going to do it. So I launched Smartblogger. Neil promoted it. Brian promoted it. And I had 13,000 email subscribers before I even started the business. Rob Marsh: Wow. Again, reputation and relationships. Yeah. So what does your business look like today? Jon Morrow: So, it’s been through several stages. For a long time, it was my only business, and it grew up to 16 employees at its peak. There is a murder there. And we monetized by teaching classes on freelance writing of all types. And we had 70,000 or more students go through our programs. And it was the dominant writing brand and still is today. for a long time. Nowadays freelance writing is changing because of AI. And because of that, I’ve diversified into other businesses, other offers. Now I work a lot with course creators because I’ve made over $15 million from selling out on courses. So that’s another business that I have. I’m also an active investor. But SmartBlogger still exists. Now we have four employees. And it’s really just passive income for me at this point. Everything is automated. Rob Marsh: The other businesses are less passive. That’s where you’re spending all of your time. Yeah. So you mentioned that AI has changed the writing business. How are you seeing the biggest impacts? And just to set the stage, obviously, a lot of people freaked out when ChatGPT came online. Writing is over. And then maybe it kind of transitioned a little bit to you’re not going to lose your job. but you might lose your job to, or AI won’t take your job, but somebody using AI will take your job. Maybe it’s not even that, but there’s been so much just disruption happening, and I think scaring people out of the industry. At the same time, maybe bringing in people from the industry who are using AI. How have you seen it change the various businesses that you work in? Jon Morrow: The biggest impact has been on search. SmartBlogger for years got four to six million visitors per year from Google. And a lot of those were what’s called information inquiries, like how to become a freelance writer. We rank for that. We rank for how to get freelance writing clients, stuff like that. What’s changed is two things. Now there are what Google calls AI overviews, where they just answer the question with AI, and then they have all the links underneath. So that cut everyone’s traffic on informational queries by 30 to 60%. The other big change is Google search is dying. Now, people are going to change everything and typing in their question. Now, they’re going to perplexity and typing in their question. And so, it’s affected search the most. In terms of creating content or creating copy, One great writer can now do the job of a hundred writers. And what that means is if you’re really good at what you do, and if you know how to use AI, you get rich and you take all the jobs out of the marketplace. With AI now, I mean, it used to take me, I don’t know, 20 hours to put together a really good sales letter. Now it takes me 30 minutes to an hour. The productivity increase is massive and that’s driving down costs and also What it means is, if I were a freelance copywriter, and I’m not, I could now do 20 times more contracts than I could before. So if you’re at the top of respect and a push for burnout, it’s a gold mine. If you’re a beginner, it makes it harder than ever before to get started. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s what I’ve seen happening in the people that I talk to as well. The people who’ve embraced it and have been using it are getting better and better at using it as well. There’s a bit of a learning curve, but those who don’t have the skills to even ask ChatGPT or whatever the tool is, you know, what they need to get out of it, They have a hard time knowing if the copy’s good or that they’re asking for the right stuff, that they’re prompting in a way that actually creates something that’s valuable. Jon Morrow: Right now, the one thing AI doesn’t have is taste. It can’t tell the difference between good copy and bad copy. If you’re using AI, the most important thing to know is the difference between good copy and bad copy. That’s step number one. Step number two is to get really good at prompt engineering. My prompt is not writing a sales summary. My prompt is first generating a copywriting page, then feeding that copywriting page into a series of six prompts that are on average about 300 words each. Okay? It goes a hell of a way. And if you really want to have examples of every section of the sales letter, The next step beyond that is an agent that can do it all for you. And that’s what I’m building now, is AI agents. Rob Marsh: So are you primarily just using ChatGPT and the actual tools? Or are there writing, editing tools that you’re also using that harness AI as part of how they function? Jon Morrow: No, I use ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini for different things. But no, I’m at the stage now where I connect to the APIs of those tools and I’m creating workflows and really code for software to do things. That’s the highest level of AI. So if you combine a master-level copywriter with an AI engineer, that’s very hard to do. Very, very hard. Rob Marsh: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s the maximum or the best combination in the people that I’m seeing use it in the copywriting world as well. So beyond the way that you’re using AI to create things like sales pages, has it impacted the work that you do, say, with course creation or any of the content that you’re producing for the world? Jon Morrow: Everything is AI assisted. Every piece of content, every course, it’s all AI assisted. We’ve come up with classes where I’ll have a human interviewing me on the topic for about three hours. Then we get the transcript for the assembly AI. And then we use that transcript to where I have a project manager that can generate the entire course off of that three-hour transcript. And I don’t do anything. My involvement is a three hour interview. Rob Marsh: And the project manager is AI or is human? Jon Morrow: Human. Rob Marsh: Okay. Jon Morrow: Yeah. Rob Marsh: That’s not a bad workflow for creating a course that then can generate plenty of money. Tens of thousands of dollars, maybe more. Jon Morrow: I’ve been seven figures on courses like that. So over the past two years, every course has been generated that way, that I’ve done, and every problem upgraded has been from AI. And I’ve made no ends meet. Rob Marsh: So it seems like somebody listening might think, oh, cool. I can just use AI to generate a course, but you’re actually starting with your brain and the stuff that’s in there, decades of experience. So, you know, obviously it’s not, it’s not really an AI course. It’s a Jon course augmented and made possible using AI tools. Is that correct? Jon Morrow: Yeah. My project manager. He has been doing instructional design for five years. So he knows the difference between a good lesson and a bad lesson, a good homework assignment and a bad homework assignment. And he’s shaping that all the way through. Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s amazing. So before we started talking, you mentioned something that’s really intriguing to me, and I want to make sure that we get to this really quickly, or before we run out of time. And that is, you said that you’ve gotten really good at maximizing the lifetime value in emails. And this is yet another challenge that’s maybe even gotten harder for people using AI, because AI is not great at maximizing lifetime value. Talk to us about that. What’s your process for making sure that email makes money? Jon Morrow: I call it funnel stacking. So I’ve worked with a lot of seven figure businesses and I’ve noticed they almost never do enough with email. Let me give you SmartBlogger as an example. When someone subscribes by downloading our lead magnet, and by the way, we have over a thousand people a week, can be up to 2,000 people a week, who download our lead magnet and subscribe. So that’s a lot of leads. Yeah. We have An initial offer and follow up next with content, introducing them to the business. And then we, the next week we have another funnel. The next week, another funnel. They get four, um, multiple offers in a row. over 30 days, mixed with content. With that process, we tripled the cost of ad spend, for example, in profit. We did it three times more or less. And then what we do, every week, we have a promotion. for either a low-ticket offer or a mid-ticket offer. And we do one every single week. All of those are automated. So the way it works is through what’s called broadcast triggering. So we’ll send a broadcast offering free content, okay? When they click the link, it triggers an automation. And it starts the funnel. All of our funnels are evergreen. So when they click the link, it puts them into the funnel. And everything happens automatically, all the way to park racing. So what that means is, if we send out to rebroadcast emails. We may get 3,000 people to enter that automation. Now what happens is if they don’t enter the automation, then we send out content for the remainder of the week. then the next week it starts over. So it’s taking people and segmenting them by interest on a weekly basis and they get to see a new problem. every single week. The compounding effect of that over a year is like a 50x increase in LTD. It’s absolutely enormous. And because you’re sentimental, it doesn’t burn out the list. Ever. You can do it forever. Rob Marsh: So let me make sure that I understand it. So you’re sending out, after those first four sequences, you send out, or however many sequences it is, you’re sending out a broadcast that is informational in nature, but it has a link, or it basically gets them interested in a product that you give them an opportunity to. If they click that link, they’ll drop into a sales funnel for that. And if they don’t click that link, You’re not continually sending them messages, selling them stuff. You’re just sending them two or three more emails that week with other information. And then you do it again the following week with an opportunity to drop into a sales funnel. Jon Morrow: Exactly. Rob Marsh: Yeah. This is really similar to something that my friend Todd Brown has talked about. And I think that it’s one of those ideas. And like you said, it’s game changing. I hadn’t heard 50X. That’s an amazing number. But I’ve heard some pretty nice results from doing this kind of stuff. And I like the way you talk about it, broadcast triggering. Jon Morrow: Yeah, it’s definitely an advanced tactic. But anyone that does it, There are two problems that plague a lot of businesses. One is a low LTV, and the second one is inconsistent income. They do launches twice a year, something like that, and it’s feast and famine. This has the benefit of literally delivering daily revenue. off of existing subscribers. So if for some reason my ad account got shut down, or we got banned from Google search, we would still make money from all of the subscribers that are still on the list. So the value is massive. I can predict my quarterly revenue with a 10% margin error just based on existing subscribers. Rob Marsh: What is the content need on the front end? So, you know, the reason I’m asking this is I imagine somebody who’s listening saying, well, that’s easy for Jon. He’s got 15 plus years of content that he can send people to. How often are you creating new content in order to send either the daily email or the stuff that you’re sending people, you’re directing them to in order to drop them into a sales sequence? Jon Morrow: I created content for years, I still create some. But for example, let’s say you put up a YouTube video on funnel stacking. Let’s say I was doing a YouTube video on that. Then what I might do is email my list about that YouTube video. Anyone who clicks the link gets moved into an automation to sell them a course or a service on funnel stack. So it’s literally, and then I might circle around. So that’s one asset is a video. Later, I might do a challenge, a 30 day challenge where we map out your funnel stack. That’s another email I could send and something I could sell. Later, I might take everything I’ve done and write a book with AI called Bubble Stacker. Now that’s another quick wire I can sell. Now I have three different bubbles off of one piece of content that can be used throughout the year. Rob Marsh: And how often are you reinventing that or thinking, okay, here’s the next offer. Is this something you’re thinking, I’m going to do one of those, you know, one piece of content, three or four offers every month? Is it every couple of months? How do you think about that? Jon Morrow: I repeat offers, but change the broadcast email at once every quarter. And nobody notices. It’s just a different broadcast email on the planet, but all of the funnel is the same. So it gets repeated once a quarter. Rob Marsh: That’s interesting. Okay. Well, this is definitely an idea worth stealing, especially if people have products to sell, but maybe more importantly, it’s an opportunity for copywriters to step up as strategists for their clients and help them build these kinds of funnels, these kinds of opportunities for the clients. Jon Morrow: Yeah, the more, the better you can get at optimizing people. What most copywriters do is they create one funnel and they send people to it and they expect a positive ROI based on that one funnel. That is a mistake. In really big business, when you get to seven, eight figures, you’re almost never making money on the first funnel. You’re always doing a series of funnels. And for people who do have the luxury of breaking even or making money on the first funnel, they don’t realize if they stack career movement bubbles with email sequences and automations behind that. They might literally triple the revenue overnight. Rob Marsh: Is this something that you’re, so you mentioned that you work with course creators. Is this a big part of what you do with them to help them sell more or is that different? Yeah, I do two things. Jon Morrow: I consult. on strategy around funnels and marketing calendars and monitoring strategy. I also did this as a service every now and again. And I just charge like 10% of the extra revenue that we make the client. And I do that every now and again too. Rob Marsh: So there’s another can’t say no offer free work from Jon that results in a nice outcome at the end, assuming that everything goes well. Jon Morrow: Yeah. I mean, I mostly do that with businesses where I expect to earn them two to three million a year extra by doing it. And so 10% is just fine. Rob Marsh: That’s pretty meaningful. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. So a lot of people in the course world have said that the last year or two has been a little bit crazy. It’s harder to sell courses. It’s harder to sell through webinars, all of the things. Have you seen that? And if you have, how have you been helping course creators overcome that? Jon Morrow: There is a deficit of trust. If you are not trusted, it’s much harder. If you are trusted, nothing has changed. So it really becomes a question of how can we make people trusted? And what that means is nurturing is way more important than ever before. By email, by retargeting, the days of expecting to have no social media buttons and not getting rid of their emails to nurture, those days are over. you have to be nurturing and building trust and authority with your audience to make seven figures, eight figures for sure. Rob Marsh: One of the things that you also mentioned earlier as we were chatting that I’d love to get your thoughts on, you mentioned that you had worked with Neil Patel and Frank Kern, obviously Brian Clark. Talk about what you learned from these personalities. Some people might call them gurus or experts. How did they impact the way you think and the stuff that you do? Jon Morrow: Brian taught me that writing a good copy is not a creative exercise, which a lot of people would disagree with. But he said it’s really, almost like, paint by numbers. You have to have all the components. And maybe there’s a little bit of creativity in the order you put those components in. But otherwise, it’s about having everything in place someone needs to make a purchase. It’s not about being clever. It’s not about having brilliant players. None of that matters at all. In fact, it probably hurts you. It’s about really paving the way for a purchase decision. And to do that is a mechanical process, not a creative one. That was a huge answer. But Neil, I learned about delegation. Neil was a master of doing nothing. Of getting smart people around him to do everything. It really just taught me about the value of leverage of all kinds. So those were, I mean, they’re way more lessons than it was, but those are the two big ones. I think so. Rob Marsh: I think a lot of people now look at you as the expert. You know, what are the things that you are trying to teach the world or the people that you’re trying to have the biggest impact with? What are the lessons that you’re passing on? Jon Morrow: The big lesson I’m trying to pass on now is that everyone is worried about AI, but there are certain things that are not going to change. Um, an old Brainian nursing home is not where the one-eyed robot lives. It doesn’t matter if it’s better. It doesn’t matter if it’s cheaper. She’s going to want the human being. When people learn, they don’t want the most intelligent teacher. They want a teacher they can identify with. The thing that’s not going to change is human connection. And even our loss is going to become more valuable than ever before. Because people are going to thirst to learn from another human being. Rather than omnipotent AI. They’re going to thirst to talk to another human being when they’re deciding whether or not to buy. And so putting ourselves in a position where we are trusted and have a connection with millions of people that is about you that’s not going away. Not in this episode. Maybe never. As long as humans are around. And so, I find myself talking a lot more about immersion, about brand, and about really building trusted connections. And all of the other formal optimizations, stacking, AI to accelerate sales leaders. All of that is flashy, but everyone’s going to do that. It’s not a competitive advantage. On the other hand, if you have a million people to love you, to respect you. That’s not something other competitors can just create overnight. So, the power of love is really what I spend a lot of time trying to push. Rob Marsh: Yeah, it’s more good advice for anyone, which kind of leads into my next question. So let’s say that you lost everything today. You no longer have the businesses that you have. You don’t even have the relationships you have. You had to start over. What would you do? Would you do the same thing? Would you do something different? And again, the reason I’m asking, you know, earlier we were talking about AI making it so difficult for copywriters, content writers to break in now. It’s become immensely more challenging. What would you do to overcome that? Jon Morrow: So where I’ve also lost my skills. if I was starting over or do I still learn less skills? Rob Marsh: Well, let’s say that you have the skills that you had, you know, as you started writing. So, you know, you’re basically a beginner, but you, you maybe haven’t figured out the whole, uh, broadcast trigger stack, that kind of stuff. Jon Morrow: I would build an audience on Facebook, which catches a lot of people off guard. But there’s an enormous advantage to Facebook that everyone overlooks. On Facebook, you can send a friend request to just about anyone. So what I would do is I would start writing things for free for people with a lot of friends, people who already had big brands. And when I asked, what do I want to be paid, I would say nothing, just bring me on Facebook. That’s all I would ask for. Now that sounds ridiculous, but then I would go to all of their friends, and I would bring them. And just say, hey, it’s great to meet you. You know, how do you know Rob? By the way, I just wrote this weird thing for it. Do you know anyone who did that type of writing? And I would keep doing that until I had thousands of friends and so many people who had started to trust me because I was friends with people they respected on Facebook. And that’s how I would start getting work. And the reason why they would pay me is not because of the best copy. It would be because of the trust that they’ve gotten from the employer and endorsements of just being a friend with someone. That’s what I would do. Rob Marsh: I want to see somebody do this. I mean, it goes back to the same idea you started with. It’s all about relationships and making sure that those are really solid before you do anything else. Jon Morrow: Yeah, next week, I’m actually going to, we’re teaching this. I’m launching it to my list—I believe Facebook is the best platform to get started. Now, do you want to stay there? No. But in this story, you could get to six figures within a website with just Facebook posts, friends, and DMs. I’m sure you could. Rob Marsh: What are some other thoughts or ideas in addition to that, things that you might do in order to, you know, maybe it’s launched the first course or, you know, create the first information product or, you know, however the next step is to grow the business? Jon Morrow: For information products, the first big hurdle is proof. So what I would do is I would sit down and I would say, What are the things I have done in my life that other people would love to replicate? And I would start there. Then once I have a list of those, I would say, what visual proof do I have that I accomplished this? It could be a screenshot. It could be, let’s say you’re a mountain climbing instructor. It could be a first review on the top of Mount Everest. That’s visual proof. So I would connect my accomplishments with my visual proof. Then if I were a beginner, I would make this offer. I would teach you how to do this for, let’s say, $1,000. And here’s the deal. I really need testimonials. So if you do every step, if you do every homework assignment, and you give me your honest review at the end, I will give you back. your full tuition of $1,000 at the end. If you miss one full month assignment, you don’t get it. Okay? And I would do that for that testimonial. Then I would want the next version not offering people their money back. That’s how it gets started. Rob Marsh: I love that idea too. It’s a no loss for the person creating the product because either they get paid or they get the testimonial which they can leverage into getting paid again. So yeah, it’s really, really great advice. So John, last question for you. If you could go back in time and just give yourself some advice that would help speed up the process or make things easier for you as you were starting out as a copywriter or content writer, what would you say? Jon Morrow: I would tell myself to think even bigger. Yeah. Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, what do you mean by that? Because you thought pretty big. It feels like you were thinking pretty big. Jon Morrow: One of my regrets is staying in a small market of freelance writers for a decade and never branching out. into anything bigger. I’m proud of what I’ve accomplished. And at the same time, I know that if I’d gone to a bigger market, I’d be a hundred times richer than I am today. My choice of market, it wasn’t a waste. But I have monotonically underperformed my potential. Even though I made dividends, I’d probably be worth, I don’t know, a couple hundred million, maybe a billion dollars by now if I just chose a different market. That was my biggest mistake. Rob Marsh: And obviously you’ve got the skills you could make work in any market. So, so taking that anywhere else you go. I want to, I want to thank you for your time, Jon. I’ve admired you just the way you overcome obstacles, how hard you work, the way you’ve built teams, as I’ve watched sort of from the sidelines. It’s, it’s one of those experiences where, you know, sometimes I’m thinking, ah, I wish I’d thought of that, or I wish I’d done that. Jon got there first. And so I find the advice that you’re sharing and just your experience incredibly valuable for me personally, and hopefully for our audience as well. So thank you for that. Jon Morrow: Thank you for having me. I’m honored. Rob Marsh: Thanks to Jon Morrow for walking through his business, what he’s built, what he’s building for the future. I’m inspired by John’s work and what he’s accomplished in the face of some pretty big challenges.  Now, I have to admit, Jon’s advice about building an audience on Facebook was a bit of a surprise to me. Obviously, we’ve got a very large free group on Facebook, The Copywriter Club, but over the past year or so, we found that getting traction on posts in the group is getting harder and harder. Jon’s approach of connecting with prospects, then connecting with their friends and making an offer is really interesting to me. And given that it’s so different from the hundreds of pitch emails showing up in our inboxes right now, I think it just might work. It may work even better than I imagined, thanks to the implied endorsement that you get with their friends who you refer to in your friend request. If you try this tactic, I want to hear from you about how well it works. Email me at rob@thecopywriterclub dot com and let me know how it goes.  And if you’re looking for other ideas on how to connect with your ideal prospects and pitch them for work, there are close to a dozen workshops inside The Copywriter Underground that will help. You can try The Underground right now, watch those workshops, try out the ideas that we share there, and if you like what you see and you want to stick around to use the templates, training, community, and coaching, no problem. And if it’s not for you, that’s also not a problem. Just let us know within seven days and you’ll get every penny back. There’s no risk. So why not check out thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu now.