TCC Podcast #452: Surviving an Economic Downturn with Topaz Hooper

What do you do when the worst happens in business? Are you prepared? In this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I spoke with copywriter Topaz Hooper about the steps you should be taking now to prepare for an economic downturn. The ideas we talk about here are good business practices even if the economy booms. But they become more important when things are uncertain. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

American Copywriter Co.
Topaz’s new Instagram
The first interview with Topaz
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Research Mastery

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Are you prepared for the worst in your business… economic downturns, recessions, the loss of clients and ongoing projects? If not, this episode is for you. This is The Copywriter Club Podcast.

In today’s episode I’m catching up with Topaz Hooper who was a guest on the show several years ago. Topaz’s business has followed the trend that so many copywriters and other freelancers followed through the pandemic and afterwards. Most of us saw a nice bump in clients and revenues but then things started to change and she’s had to reinvent her business to adjust to the changes. We’ll get into that in the interview.

Topaz also happens to be the second American expat who is living and working in The Netherlands that I’ve had on the podcast over the past couple of weeks. That wasn’t intentional, but maybe this was a hint that more of us could be living overseas and working with clients here in the states. I don’t know.

The big topic we covered in this podcast is how to survive in a recession. We are not in a recession—at least as far as the general business cycle goes—at the moment, but there have been some difficult economic events that have scared a few people and caused them to predict that a recession is somewhere out there on the horizon. We are not predicting a recession, but we are talking about how to be prepared for it if it happens to come… maybe this year, maybe next, but certainly at some point in the future.

But beyond the general economic environment, there have been micro effects in the copywriting world… things like A.I. taking on a lot of work, especially at the lower end of the spectrum. And some industries, finance and tech come to mind, have suffered their own downturns with layoffs and clients cancelling projects. So while these haven’t shown up in the overall macro-environment, what you see happening in your niche may be close to a what an actual recession might feel like. If you’ve felt that, you’ll want to listen to this whole episode.

One more thing I want to mention, I talked about this topic—preparing for a recession—at The Copywriter Club In Real Life in 2020… that was right before the last mini-recession happened. Topaz and I talk about some of those ideas on this episode, but you can go even deeper with them in an article written by Anna Hetzel. I’ll link to that article in the show notes if you want to check it out. It’s worth reading.

Before we jump into our interview, this is probably the last time I’ll mention this for a while but I want to share with you all of my research secrets… especially my 4:20+ research method that helps copywriters like you uncover the ideas and insights you need to write great sales copy. It’s part of Research Mastery which also includes more than twenty different techniques for capturing ideas, all of the questions I use to learn more about my client, their product, their customers and their competitors as well as the documents you need to capture your research and several tutorials on how to use A.I. to speed up your processes and even help with your research itself.  There’s a bonus on using Airtable to collect and sort your data and more… You can learn more about this unique resource at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery… research mastery is all one word. Check it out now at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery.

And now, my interview with Topaz Hooper.

Topaz, welcome back to the podcast. It’s great to have you here, excited for this discussion, talk, chat, whatever we’re gonna whatever we’re gonna call it, but you were here a few years ago episode number 305, catch me up. What has changed in your life since we talked about cruelty free copywriting and sales and all of those things.

Topaz Hooper: So the first time we chatted, thanks for having me back, Rob. It’s so good to be here. Yeah, life has changed quite a bit. Cruelty Free copywriter was my baby in 2021 I think I jumped on the pod, like you said in the 300th episode somewhere. And at that time, vegan food, plant based fashion, clean beauty were all rising and they were really heavily funded, and they needed copywriters everywhere. And I couldn’t be everywhere, but I had a very good, successful business. And since then, you know, people are feeling a bit of a financial pinch these days, and those industries are not doing as well. So I’ve had to pivot quite a bit and launch new things and do new things. So I’m excited to get into how I’m sort of pivoting in this era of quasi recession, energy and maybe how others can learn from what I’ve done.

Rob Marsh: Okay, this is really interesting, and I think it’s going to be a really good conversation, because, like you said, things have changed. Especially here in the States, there’s a lot of uncertainty about what’s going to be happening tomorrow or next week, or what’s not going to be happening. And things seem to be up in the air. There is talk of recessions, political policy, maybe bringing that faster or slower. But regardless of, even if you set all of that stuff aside, the business cycle itself, every 7 to 10 years, we go through some ups and downs. And this last cycle, we’ve had things like AI, we’ve had some layoffs in the tech sector because of that, which has brought more people into the copywriting world. And so before we start talking about some of the things that you’ve done to shift as you were looking at your business, what made you realize that things were changing? What were some of those first indicators where you’re like, I need to start paying attention or like, for a lot of us, sometimes that just goes over our heads and suddenly we just don’t have money, or we don’t have clients, and we’re like, Okay, we got a problem here.

Topaz Hooper: Honestly, I was paying attention to my clients on social media. Every single client that I have, or potential client. I follow them on social, and I like all their stuff, and so the algorithm sends me all their posts. And I just started seeing more and more of my favorite brands closing. And I was reading time after time due to unforeseen circumstances, we’re closing the business, or, due to this sort of difficult time to launch a company, or to grow a company, or, you know, import, exports, you know, all these sort of business owner terms, I started to see that people were just closing shop. They’re just like, people aren’t buying our shoes anymore, or people who don’t don’t have money for this extra special thing, and we’re closing so I start to see this trend happening, probably like middle of last year, 2024, to about now, 3 or 4 years after the other started closing, and I started to look into why that was happening. And so that’s when I started to get a little bit worried.

Okay, you know, if these are the people that I know of, imagine all the other brands in my niche that I typically serve. What are they going through? I also started to pay a lot of attention to LinkedIn. Some bigger brands were closing meaty, which is a popular vegan mushroom brand, sold for less than their value this year. I think they were valued at 50 million and they sold for 4 million recently. Those are signs that, you know, my industry is not doing well. And so what I started to notice was my favorite brands were closing shop, and that’s why my inbox started to sound a little empty, a little bit like a cave with an echo. And so that’s when I started to think, okay maybe something’s wrong. And so I kind of had to become a bit of a quasi economics professor, and start digging into what is supply chain, and what are factors that make businesses close or open, and what does this mean for my business?

Rob Marsh: This is interesting. So obviously, we need to be paying attention to the industries that we’re working in if we’re seeing this kind of stuff happening in our industries as well. What do we need to be doing? Let’s talk about recession proofing, or preparing for what could happen with an economic downturn. 

Topaz Hooper: Yes, first of all, kind of circling back, you got to become an economics professor or something. I know many of us, we are in the copywriting business because we love writing, or we love marketing or we love sales. We’re not economics people. Maybe we know how to do our bookkeeping, but we don’t look at inflation necessarily. And in the context of our business. We might think of it in our homes, oh, the price of milk is up or something. But we don’t think about, what does that mean for my clients? 

You know, I think we all need to start reading the jobs report. We should all start listening to the federal Federal Reserve Chair. We need to all be looking at the growth trajectory of our niches in the last six months or a year. And so I think we all need to start putting on our economics hats, because that tells us why we’re not getting clients. It’s more so those factors that impact the businesses that we serve, and less about whether your marketing was good that day or whether your social post was seen. And so for me, the big recession proofing process has been just that deep dive. Is it me or is it the market? And when I started to realize it’s not me, my website still converts, my emails are still good. The market’s not doing well. I started to say, Okay, what do I need to do now? And so I think step one is just getting in tune with the local economics of your area. I know the copywriter club serves, you know, has people from all over the globe, and I know if tech is declining here, but tech is doing well in India, and is doing great in China or wherever. People are listening. You know, we have to sort of think about our own local economic situation. And so, you know, be an economics professor. Read all the nerdy stuff, you know, look at Forbes, whatever you need to do to get a sense of your industry. So that’s number one.

Rob Marsh: So before we move on from that, let’s talk a little bit about inflation. There was worldwide inflation that happened over the last two or three years, and at the same time that a lot of the prices were going up for our businesses, for our personal lives, we also had in the marketing world, AI come on the scene and start to push down some of the things that at least copywriters in the middle ranges and the lower ranges were able to charge and so we sort of had pressure from two sides happening here, where prices were going up, but our ability to charge more was stymied a bit by that. So that kind of an impact starts to show up, even if you’re not able to watch a lot of the economic indicators that you’re talking about, that starts to show up in our P&L, or when you look at the end of the month and there’s no money there, this is part of why that is going on. That’s not really a question. But I just want to throw that out, because it is the reality that we’re all dealing with.

Topaz Hooper: You’re so right, Rob, and I would say if you want to recession proof your business in the era of AI, you have to take the bull by the horns, so to speak. You know, I am so guilty of being the person saying, AI is never going to take my job. You know, honestly, I’m good like, I don’t need to learn it. I don’t need to engage with it. It’s just going to be there. And if clients want to use it, great, but other clients will use copywriters like me, and that’s not untrue, but more and more clients are saying, can you please use AI to speed up your copywriting process, or can you run that headline through AI, just so that we, you know, have another idea here. And so copywriters who are feeling a little bit threatened by AI right now and aren’t able to charge the rates that they usually do, keep your rates steady. Just use just but jump on the AI train. 

I know that The Copywriter Club has done so many episodes about how to engage with AI, and I do think that is going to be a tool that’s going to save your business in the long run. For example, I was doing some Substack content writing for a thought leader in the clean beauty space, and she used AI for a ton of her articles. And I’m like, there’s nothing wrong with that, but they’re not that good. Let me use what you’ve written with AI, and let me make it more human. Let me adapt it. Let me clean it up. Let me target it better. And those articles performed better. I didn’t tell the client to stop using AI, but I jumped on top of it and said, Okay, let me fix it for you. I still charge my same rate. I just gave her a better article with AI. So I would suggest people to not fight it, but to own it and to use it, and to take the power away from AI and make it a tool for you instead of a replacement for you during approach.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, it reminds me of the way that I talk to my kids about bullies. You know, you take, you take away their power by doing certain things or whatever. And I suppose that’s an apt analogy here, because some of us have seen AI as a bully. To us, it’s taking away our livelihood, or it is impacting the way that we work, or the way that clients are thinking about the value that we bring to the table, and so taking away its power, it’s just a good reframe on that. 

Okay, let’s talk about what do we need to do to prepare for this is the reality we’re in? What do we need to do to make sure that we’re gonna actually survive the next year or two, assuming that things may get worse?

Topaz Hooper: Let’s get personal here. We all live in a place where we pay rent or mortgage. We have to go get food, we have, we have living expenses. And more and more copywriters use their business funds just for living. Many of us live hand to mouth. Many of us, you know, maybe 80% of our income from copyright and go straight into our personal living expenses. If you want to prepare for a recession, please lower your cost of living. Maybe it might be a little too late. Maybe you’re stuck in something that you can’t get out of. But if you can get out of a high cost of living area, if you can get out of paying for an extra bill or an extra car or an extra thing, please try to reduce your cost of living before it’s too late. And the reason why I say this is because during the peak of the pandemic, we copywriters, I know we’re making six figures. I was making six figures. It was a great era. Times have changed, and now my friends who upgraded their life during the height of the pandemic, they got new Teslas, they got a new mortgage, they got a new this. Now they’re saying, oh my goodness, this is way too expensive, and I can no longer afford it like I could in 2022 and so my suggestion is, before the pandemic comes, try to save 50% of your business income. I know it’s hard, because we all have living expenses, but if you can save 50% put half away, use, use the rest, you’re going to thank me in a year when the when the actual height of the recession hits, or knock, knock on wood, hopefully it doesn’t hit, but you’ll be happy in a half a year.

Two years when the recession has come. And the truth is, there are, there are recessions within the United States. They’re always there. It has nothing to do with you. It’s always going to happen. So the more that we can prepare by keeping our cost of living low, the better. In addition, you also want to lower your business expenses. Maybe you were an agency in 2022, 2023, 2024 you had subcontractors. You had a lot of tools. You had a lot of apps. Now you’re starting to realize, did I really need to spend $130 a month on SEMrush for one project that I do once a year? Or could I have just done the free version? Or do I need eight subcontractors? Maybe I just need one or two. And so, you know, how can you diminish the cost of working so that you can save that 50% of your business income and put it away, put it away, put it away. So, yeah, cost of living, and then saving 50% of your income is going to be a game changer for the recession. That’s how so many of us survived. That’s how I’ve survived those good and bad months. Save, save, save, cut, cut.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love this advice. This is something that I’ve done in my own business recently, and looking particularly at software tools where I see, okay, I invested in this tool because it’s got five or six different things that I might use in the future, and ultimately, I’m only using two of them. Is there a tool out there that actually gives me those two, and I’m not paying for all of these extra features, and because of that, I have changed email service providers. I’m looking at alternatives to tools like Asana. Asana is not incredibly expensive, but you know, if you’re paying a couple of $100 a month and can switch to a tool that’s maybe 25 or $30 a month for you know, that’s going to cover 80% 90% of what you’re using a tool for those kinds of trade offs can be very worthwhile. And at the same time in personal business, you know, do you really watch Netflix and Prime and Disney+ and Max and, you know, there’s places where we can say one at a time, we can cut back so that our personal number helps reduce the pressure on our business to provide for this high cost of living. And I’m being a little flippant in saying streaming services is the problem. There’s this conversation out there that all you need to do is give up avocado toast and you’re gonna have a safe retirement. We’re not being flippant about that. There are legitimate things that people can do and enjoy life, but at the same time, you want to be careful that you’re not over indulging in things that you’re not using in order to bring your expenses down.

Topaz Hooper: Oh my gosh, you nailed it. Rob, one cool thing that I’m so, like, surprised that I didn’t know about was Google Tasks, which acts like a note taker, slash Task recorder that does something more. It’s more basic than Asana, but it can act as an Asana. So look at all the tools out there that can do, what your favorite tools do, but a little bit cheaper or free. You know, I worked at Google for two years. There’s a ton of tools… for example, my phone is now on Google Voice. I save money by changing my phone from a $90 a month bill to a 100% free internet based phone. People can still leave me voicemails. People I can still call my mom like nothing’s changed, except that I don’t pay anything anymore. And so it’s just one of those things that if you can find tools that are free or low cost that do exactly what you need them to do, go for it, find it, do it. And especially when you’re in a slower period and you’re feeling like your business is walking into a recessionary period, this is a great time to start digging around and cleaning house, fixing things, screwing in light bulbs, you know, repairing and painting the the facets of your business that were kind of looking crusty when you were at your height, and now you have the time to fix them. So go for it. 

How? You know, go under construction, do some auditing on your expenses, and figure out, how can I save $300 a month for the rest of the year? One other thing I would mention, and that saved me, is, instead of getting an app and spending monthly on it, buy the one year payment of that app. So for example, I use Calendly. It’s like 90 bucks a year. Instead of paying, you know, $8 a month, I pay 90 bucks a year, and that bill goes away for an entire year. So during the peak of my business, when I’m super rich and everything’s going well, I buy all my subscriptions for the year, so that during my slow month, I don’t even have to look at a bill anymore. It’s just all running on its own. That can be a really cool way to kind of have it out of sight, out of mind, and you’re not worrying about something month to month. When you’re in your slow period, that’s a really good idea if your business cycles through, you know?

Rob Marsh: So a lot of us have very quiet periods. Say, the end of December into January. Sometimes there’s a quiet period around tax season. Sometimes summer quiets down a little bit, just because of the realities of the school year, the business year, the business cycle. So being able to stagger those expenses to make sense? Well, obviously it makes sense. Back in 2020 at TCC, IRL, I gave a presentation on stage. It was basically, how do you prepare your business for a recession? This was right, as COVID was hitting, we were all looking, you know, down very similar kind of a situation where we’re very unsure of what the future was going to look like. And the very first thing that I talked about was, don’t run out of money. And that’s exactly what we’re talking about here. Is you’re just ensuring that you’re going to have enough money to make it through the month, or you’re gonna make it to the next positive client experience so that you can keep going. And so all of this stuff is really about, how do you make sure that you don’t run out of money?

Topaz Hooper: Yes, and that’s a great segue into my next tip for how to recession proof your copywriting business multiple streams of income and building a backup business. Now, some of us started copywriting as a side hustle. You know, we had a full time job and we started a copywriting business, and it was our side hustle. Now it’s a full time thing, but maybe you need a side hustle for your copywriting business or an adjacent one. So for example, cruelty-free copywriter gave me six figures. I loved it. I saved everything. And then when the industry started to decline, I started to look around and say, Hmm, is there another industry or niche that I can serve? Are there other services that I can offer that still make me feel good. I’m I’m an expert in them. I feel confident in those subject matters or in those deliverables. But I can build it while cruelty-free copywriter is still running strong. I can build an adjacent business on the side. Lots of big companies do this holding. Holding companies have eight different companies underneath them, and they all run them separately, and when one goes down, the other one rises, and they manage to keep themselves afloat by having multiple companies in their portfolio. Copywriters can think about it in the same way. Let me have a business that’s just for cruelty-free, and let me start a new business that’s for real estate or luxury or a totally different construction, a totally different industry that has a different market and has different fluctuations. So I’m super happy to announce that I just launched a new copywriting business. 

It’s called the American Copywriter Co and we help global businesses reach American audiences. This for anyone that knows me, they know that I’m a traveler and I’ve always, always, always loved building relationships with global companies, global people. I love being everywhere. And many of the companies I would meet are like, wow, you seem like a great girl, but your niche didn’t cool too free, and we’re not, we’re furniture, or we’re or we’re tech, or we’re not quite Are you sure you want to work with us? You seem like you don’t serve us. And it was very hard for me to say, Oh no, I do serve you, I promise. And they look at my website, they’re like, Are you sure? Now I’ve created a business where I can say, Yes, I do serve you. I do serve global companies that want to launch and grow in the United States, and I’m their translator in chief, their copywriter in chief, to help translate their French furniture brand messaging into something that an American in New York City or LA can understand and relate to and want to purchase from. This is something that I think is in demand and makes me unique. It still leans into sort of what makes you special? What are you an expert in? This idea of copywriting and building your niche, but it leads into a new, untapped niche that’s growing. And so I would highly recommend any copywriter who’s looking at their niche, whether it’s tech or health and wellness or something, and they’re just like, oh, is this gonna keep going down? Like, I need to do something without totally abandoning what you’ve done. Build another side business and see and then grow them, cultivate them, you know, together and lean into the one that really serves that season and, you know, scale down the one that is kind of in a dormant state.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, this is really good advice. Let me add to that just a little bit for those who are thinking, Well, I don’t really want to run two separate businesses. There’s also a way to do that within an existing business, and that is to come up with several different offers that are doing different things. So if you have in the past been writing case studies and white papers, maybe it’s time to branch out and start offering your clients something more like emails or sales pages, or maybe you’ve been writing sales pages and emails, but your clients are leaning into more content that could get picked up by AI in order to be found in AI search, right? So here’s an opportunity to expand your offers. Making more offers within an existing business does something similar. So I admire what you’re doing, building, you know, entirely a second business focused on a second set of you. Niches, clients and offers, but there’s maybe an easier way to, like you said earlier, create a side hustle for your side hustle, and that is, you know, make more offers to your existing clients in your existing business.

Topaz Hooper: Nailed it. You’re totally right. I think if you’re someone who has a brand name that’s not totally niched, it’s like, you know, Topaz Hooper copy or or something that can be reinvented or expanded upon. Go, diversify your deliverables. Super, super smart as copywriters, we’re taught to do social listening. We’re taught to listen to what our clients want, their their customers. What are they saying? Let’s practice social listening in our business. Go. Let’s walk over to our ideal client, or our past clients, and say, How are you doing? What? What are you struggling with? What do you need now? Oh, you don’t need a website anymore. You need ongoing email. Well, I don’t quite offer that, but I can. And so I think we all have to go back into the clients that we’ve served and start doing some social listening about what the market needs. What I’m hearing now is people are moving away from, you know, certain deliverables, and they want more different types of deliverables, like, maybe they’re doing more trade shows. They don’t want websites anymore. You did that for them last year. It’s beautiful. Now they need some trade stuff, or they need packaging, or they need brand strategy, because they’re looking to rebrand soon. You know, how can you listen in and say, Is there something that you need that you would like this season? And some of them will tell you they’re like, Yeah, we could really use more packaging stuff. Do you do that? And you can say, Yeah, I do that. Yeah. I do that. Quickly. Add it to your website.

Yeah, definitely expand your deliverables. Don’t be afraid to listen in and be adjustable to your comp, to the companies that you serve. This advice of listening goes back to what you were saying when you first started talking about the reason for your shift. If you can see that your clients are struggling, you know to make sales or to do something in their business, and you can see it early enough so that you can actually help them solve that problem, create some value for them, help them launch a new product, or create sales for an existing product line. You’re watching them and seeing what’s happening in real time. That’s an opportunity where you can step in and say, hey, I can see what’s going on in the business, and I may be able to help you fix that. I may be able to bring more customers to the table. I may be able to help you reduce churn so that you’re not losing customers all of these things, all these problems that we can solve for our clients. But if you’re not watching your clients, paying attention what’s going on in your business, you’re gonna miss those opportunities. Yes, and that’s a great way to recession proof your business is leaning on the relationships that you have existing if you’ve done great work for a client and they love you, they just don’t need any more website stuff, you can totally lean in again and say, How can I help you this season? How can I help you next week? How can I help you next year? And cultivating those relationships can lead to more work, especially during a recession, when people are usually cutting their full time staff and looking to lean back into freelancers or sole sole solopreneurs. I guess you could say who they trust. And so, you know, how can you be the trustworthy person who has the right deliverables at the right time and you show up in their inbox on the perfect day? And so I would say, don’t be afraid to Yeah. Adjust your deliverables, pivot your niche a little bit as well. That’s one thing I learned with cruelty free copywriter. I was so heavily niched in plant based CPG, which is consumer packaged goods, for those that don’t know, basically plant based snacks, vegan fashion and beauty, that there was people in the luxury realm that are also cruelty free or sustainable that were like, Oh, we’re kind of in your niche, but we’re not quite Are you open to ethical diamonds, like lab grown diamonds? Oh, maybe that seems Are you open to sustainable furniture? Okay, maybe or, or are you open to compostable gloves. Is that something that you serve, you know, it is cruelty free, it is plant based, but it’s not quite in those specific niches. So, is there some kind of outside, quasi neighborhood niche that can also meet your business’s criteria, or, you know, or offer the or for people that want the deliverable that you offer. You know, Can you expand a little bit? Can you pivot? And so that’s what I learned, too. So I did, I took on an ethical diamond company, and it was awesome. And I took on a French furniture brand that does, you know, sustainably made, handcrafted furniture from the coast of Brittany, and it was great. And I was like, There’s nothing that’s not vegan or cruelty free about this. It’s just not food, fashion or beauty. And so there are some ways that you can still keep your company’s mission, your company’s direction, your company’s goals, your deliverables, and just sort of see what else is ancillary or what else is neighboring around, which. Where that industry is growing.

Rob Marsh: You mentioned these relationships and really dialing in on those. And I think this is a really important point as far as recession proofing a business, not just the existing relationships, although those are really good, you know, it’s easier to sell a customer who’s happy with your work and you’ve worked with before than it is to find a new customer. But this is the time that we should be building our network of friends and relationships outside of our customer base of the few copywriters that we’ve talked to, because those relationships take time to build and develop, and they don’t pay off, sometimes for months, sometimes for years, but when the recession hits, if you don’t have those relationships in place, building them becomes desperate, and you’re you’re sort of too late to make it work, and clients start to see it not as a relationship, but as a desperate plea for money and work.

Topaz Hooper: Oh my goodness, networking is such a dirty word for some people. It feels icky for introverts or people that kind of don’t like that. But I want to reframe networking in the context of recession proofing your business, which is networking should not be a tit for tat. Give me this. Give me that I’m using you. You’re using me. I think a lot of people approach networking in that way, and it leaves a really icky taste in everyone’s mouth. Networking should be a

relationship building tool and a reputational amplifier. You walk into conferences and say, Hi, my name is Topaz, and I do American copywriter CO and and Hi, that’s just what I do. What’s your name? Show me a picture of your dog. What do you do on Sundays? And the sort of relationship building aspect is so much more sustainable. And what happens is you start to become friends with people. Like, networking is like professional friends. It’s like, LinkedIn, you know? It’s like professional friends. And then whenever someone’s like, Man, I really could use a copywriter for something, you’re the first person that they think of because they met you two weeks ago at a conference. And so I would say your network is your net worth, and those and people that you know are oftentimes the people that will hire you. And I think as long as you lean in on networking as a relationship tool instead of a give me this, give me that you’re gonna have so much more success than other people during this processionary period. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s exactly right. It. We have to think about networking as friend making or relationship making, instead of, like you said, the tit for tat, you know, you give me this, I give you that, the cheesy, you know, mixer, cocktail party thing that we envision. I can think of several people that I’ve met over the course of my career who have become true friends. You know, we go to lunch, we hang out, who also, as time goes on, you know, every six months or so, there’s an opportunity for me to provide a lead for that person or for them to do it. For me, I don’t maintain the friendship because it’s going to lead to that kind of a thing. They are friends, and I enjoy going to lunch. We, you know, talk about our families, you know, things that are going on in our lives. But you know, because that friendship exists, sometimes these positive benefits for our businesses come out of that, and that’s how we have to look at building networks. It’s not too late. Start today, but look at it like I’m looking for friends, I’m looking for people to hang out with. I’m looking for people to talk with online, just to share ideas and thoughts, and not necessarily to beg for work,

Topaz Hooper: yes. And I think one of the things that has changed since the since the pandemic is that people are looking to meet you in real life like we. I think many of us in the copywriter world got kind of lost our networking chops a little bit because we were stuck in our houses during the pandemic. I mean, everyone lost everything was online. Yeah, everyone from all ages, lost their social skills during that period. But we got so used to doing online things, networking online, and now people are like, so do you want to get coffee again? And we have to be like, Yeah, I will I will walk, I will take a train, I will take a bus, I will bike ride, I will drive to go get a coffee with you. And I think something really powerful is cultivated there when you start to have these relationships with people, where you’re meeting in person, and they see you again and again and again. For example, I was working with a CPG company, and I started having coffee with the founder. I just met her through some networks. I was like, we should get coffee. You seem like a girl that I would love to nerd out with about this or that. We started becoming friends, we started hanging out. And then all of a sudden, she asked me to do some work for her. And I was a little bit surprised, because I never pitched her at all. I was just like, Hi, I just happen to be a copywriter. So what’s your favorite color, you know? And she said, I really want.

Work with you. And I said, why she’s like, because I know you. And that was it. That was the only reason why she wanted to hire me, is that she knows she knew me. And so if you want to recession proof your business, continue to be known, continue to go to networking events, to private parties, to to places where you don’t even think there’s clients, but just be that person that’s like, hi, yeah, I just don’t happen to be a copywriter, but I’m also a really great tennis player. Do you want to play tennis sometime and just see what happens to

to your business when in those desperate moments when you really do need clients, you don’t have to beg. You can just say, Hi so and so it was nice meeting you last week. It just so happens that I’m open to client work. If you know of anybody that is looking for a copywriter in the email or launch, just let me know and send them. Send them my way. I have gotten,

I would say, 6k to 8k worth of work just from that casual, let’s play tennis together, relaxed thing alone, and now I’m not struggling during this recessionary period or this quasi recessionary period, because I just made a bunch of friends. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah, another place to make these friends, it’s been really beneficial to me personally, and you’ve seen this, I’m sure, in your business, but sometimes in joining a program or a membership or a mastermind, something like that will connect you with the right people.

I’ve mentioned this once or twice on this podcast, but I joined a mastermind and met, you know, a bunch of other copywriters, one of whom connected me with somebody that was in her network and she didn’t have time to help them with a project. So I hopped onto that project, which then turned into, like, four or five other projects, and I made almost six figures from that one contact. And that would never have happened if I hadn’t joined the membership where we met. And so I know, you know, on this podcast, I pitch our membership quite a bit. The copywriter underground, it doesn’t have to be that particular membership, but being in programs with people who are doing similar things to what you are doing is a fantastic way to build that network of other people that you could reach out to, again, not not necessarily for work, but for friendship, for Help that results in these kinds of positive business outcomes.

Topaz Hooper: Yes, I was part of The Copywriter Club membership, and I met a woman named Michelle Carrington, who is a beauty copywriter. And again, she and I were just friends. I’m like, hi, you’re in the same you know, membership, let’s be friends. We became friends. And then I started to notice a dip in my business, and I thought it was me. I was like, maybe it’s me. And I reached out to Michelle, and I said, Hi, Michelle, it’s so good to see you again. Blah, blah, blah, I’m noticing, you know, I would love more clean beauty clients right now. Is there anybody that knocked on your door that, you know, just didn’t seem like the right fit? She said, Actually, yes, there were two people that didn’t seem like the right fit. One wanted website copy, but it wasn’t quite beauty. And one woman wanted social media support, but I don’t do social media stuff, and I’m like, Well, I do, do you want to send them my way? She said, Sure. One of those clients became a regular client for six months, and the other one, I did a four figure website copy revamp for and so sometimes you meet people in networks that you again, you never pitch them. You just happen to say hi, just if you have anybody, let me know, and then they do. And so like The Copywriter Club is a gold mine of brilliant, amazing, smart, well connected individuals who are just fantastic humans, but also people that maybe can help you during

a recessionary period, and why not lean on them? Why not get coffee with them? Why not tell them that you need help from time to time? And let’s see what happens. And that’s another thing. I hate asking for help. And there is a way to ask for help or ask for support during a recession that’s not desperate, and there is a way to lean in and tap your networks without being like, beggy, and that is doing what I did with Michelle, reaching out and just saying, hey, let’s get coffee. Let’s have a life update. And here’s what’s going on in my business. And sometimes people really are like, you’re an amazing copywriter. I know people let me, like, make some phone calls and all of a sudden, when you thought your business was sort of declining, it’s rebounding. And so that simple tool alone to help bulletproof your business from recession is literally asking for help, leaning into your networks and doing it in such a way where you’re open to receiving new clients or new support.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, as we’ve been talking about this, you kind of made a comment, and we’ve skipped over that. I want to go back to when you were talking about as your business started to decline, you started to look at different, related areas in the business that you could serve. You mentioned the French furniture company, I think, and some others. And that comes to this point where you need to be thinking about how you’re framing your business, the problem you solve, the message that you’re putting out into the world. And it might be time, as you look at your copywriting business, to reframe it in a different way, so that either you go more narrow into a niche, or maybe you broaden out a little bit so that you can take on additional clients. But the way that you’ve been talking about your business for the past two or three years may not be the way that you need to talk about it for this coming year, or for the challenge that we’re moving into.

Topaz Hooper: Yes, you are right on the money. And I would say that that could be just a simple messaging rebrand. Should you rebrand your messaging? Do you need to say something different this year? Back in the pandemic, people might have said, Oh, you know, clients are now online, and your website looks terrible. Let me help you. Nowadays, people might need to hear. Listen, there’s so much competition. I can help you stand out. And so have you looked at your messaging? Have you reimagined your ideal client? Your ideal client can change companies, change their demographics all the time. You know, I served plant based CPG for years, and for years, it wasn’t just vegans buying plant based meat, it was health conscious omnivores that said, Oh, maybe I should try something new for my heart or whatever. Now those health conscious omnivores are like, you know, I kind of did like the steak. I think I’m good. I don’t need to go back to beyond. And now those companies are like, Well, what do we do now? We’ve been targeting omnivores this whole time. How do we switch it up and go back to vegetarians or vegans or so on. And so you can do the same thing in your business. You can look at your messaging and say, Has my client changed? And the answer is yes, your client probably has changed. Your client probably is in a different place. They probably launched different products. They’ve targeted different people. And so what you can do, kind of circling back to the very beginning is again, do that deep research on look at your website. Look at your client’s website. What is their messaging these days? Does it seem like their clientele has changed? Can you learn more about their new clientele so that you can write better copy for them in the future? You know? What can you do to rebrand, reframe? And that’s why I started a new company because I figured out I wasn’t going to be able to make the hard pivot from culture free copywriter to American Copywriter Co. It was just too hard of a pivot. The domain was purchased. I couldn’t do it. I needed to start something new. And so if you feel like you can rebrand, amazing, do it, refine your messaging, re target. But if you feel like you just kind of got to keep that ship afloat, but go buy a new one and start something new. You can do both, too.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, some ideas aren’t expandable, and that’s when you need to say, Okay, we’re going to do something new. Some ideas are and you should lean into it. So, yeah, thinking about the way that you’re framing, talking about the business, talking about the problems that you solve, talking about the clients that you serve. Clients that you serve. Huge part of getting ready for a potential downturn. What else? What else should we be thinking about and preparing for?

Topaz Hooper: I think people have to remember that it’s not just them, and that’s a psychological thing to prepare for a recession, people get very nervous that they were the problem. You know, their social media didn’t work, or their landing page is no longer converting. And I think one thing to know is that it’s not sometimes it’s not you. You did everything right. What you can do is change your mindset and say, What can I do to pivot? And that’s sort of the big picture for everything. If you want to recession proof your business, start with your mindset. Remember that it’s not always what you wrote that caused your decline. Is there something bigger? And what can you do to pivot? And I find that it can be difficult for some people to pivot, because they really got so used to being in tech that, you know, they’ve been in tech for five years, they’re happy there. But maybe there’s something else beyond tech that you can do, and maybe there’s some skills that you can expand upon. Some of my favorite copywriters during down periods, they like to re skill. For example, I’ve had five people come up to me and say, Hi, do you do paid ads? And it’s been embarrassing for me to say, No, I don’t do paid ads, but then I’m like, should I be doing paid ads? And that’s what all my clients want now. So how can I re-skill? How can I make my business bulletproof by adding skills that are high, that are highly advantageous, are growing right now and that my ideal client wants. So let’s take this time to reskill. Let me, let me go, take a new course. Let me go, join a membership group. Let me, let me retool and then come back sharp and so, bulletproofing your business often means re imagining and rebranding and re and retooling. So just take advantage of that downtime. Enjoy it, you know, go on a second, you know. You know, walk today and listen to a copywriter club podcast episode and think about what you can do to retool today, you know.And so there’s so many things that you can do that are mental, that are financial, as we discussed, that are networking, and that are also just straight up rebuilding from the ground up. So I would just say, Don’t be stuck in your ways. That’s one way to be a sinking ship. There’s nothing worse than being someone who got really stuck in their ways and now the ship is down. You have the tools to pull yourself out, to reinforce your ship, to add new gadgets when there’s no rain and when there’s no waves, and then when the waves come, you’re stronger than ever.

Rob Marsh: I really love this idea of re-skilling. Obviously, you know, we have courses and things that can help copywriters add to their skills, but this is really vital or crucial, especially, you know, as we’ve talked about, ai, ai in particular, is a skill that every copywriter needs to be leaning into learning how to use, whether it’s knowing how to prompt to get good content or ideas out of it to building AI agents. I saw something today as I was going through some email that I think it was Upwork, or maybe Fiverr had mentioned that requests for jobs around AI agent building, and you know, the kind of work that these process tools can help with, has gone up something like 15,000%

which is a ridiculous number. Now it’s probably going from a very low number, so it’s easy to make that number look high, but even if you’re starting with just, you know, a few dozen that massive increase shows where part of the market is moving and so are skilling to take advantage of those kinds of needs that clients have, or at least they’re expressing, is a massive part of preparing for a downturn,

Topaz Hooper: And again, I had to change my mindset around that. I was really anti AI forever, and now I’m seeing you gotta, you gotta go for it. You gotta go with it. You can’t beat it. You gotta join it. And you know, one final thing I would say around how to, how to recession proof your business is try to be open to part time roles. There’s a there’s a it’s like a bit of a sin in the copywriter community to say that you took a full time in house copywriting job. It’s like you’re not a copywriter, a freelance copywriter, anymore, and it sort of has a stain. People feel like they have to announce that they’re no longer trying to stay 100% freelance, but what if you did a full time freelance copywriting in-house gig? That is still a contract rule, you know, and you still get benefits, but you’re not looking for eight clients a month. You’re just you’re working with one big one. That’s how I survived in many, many years of cruelty free copywriter, I just had one gigantic 30 to 40 hour per week client, and then any other copywriter, client, copywriting clients that came my way, I was like, Okay, I’ll make room for you in mid March or this or in this area, but I’m good. And so what I’ve done this time around as well as I’ve secured a 20 to 25 hour part time role with an amazing supplement company that’s doing a lot of great work, and I’m happy there, and I’m good, and the recession is going to come and go, but I’m good, I’m anchored. And so copywriters can also start to think about you’re not less of a business owner. If you work a certain amount of hours or have a very stable client. You’re not an imposter, right? You’ve just found a way to secure yourself to a good, solid client. And then whoever comes in between can come right? And it takes the stress off of your business, it takes the stress off of the monthly, day to day expenses, and then you’re not as scared and desperate as you would be otherwise.

Rob Marsh: I’m really glad you mentioned that, because I have seen this happening over the last year where a lot of copywriters are taking on part time roles, maybe even moving into a full time role with a company and keeping their freelance business as the side hustle. We’ve even created some resources in the copywriter underground, just note, because we know this is happening to help people find those kinds of roles.

But you’re right. It is not a failure of any kind. In fact, it’s a really smart move, especially if you struggle finding clients, or struggle with all of the business things that happen around serving clients when you have an in house role, the process, the structures, they’re all in place around you, and you’re able to just write. Hopefully you have a manager or somebody there who can give you positive feedback. Help you grow, help you learn. Help you increase your skills, if not.

But oftentimes those companies have budgets where you can hire coaches, join programs and get that kind of feedback to help you. So it’s a hugely advanced, an advantageous opportunity, sometimes, to move out of the struggle and into something that becomes a bit of an anchor for your business, and then maybe a year or two from now, the opportunities change and you’re ready to move back out into freelance, maybe a different role, in house, somewhere else, or at an agency. All of these are legitimate ways to work as a copywriter.

Topaz Hooper: Yes, and I love being a part of a team. Again. I’m not the only copywriter at this part time role. There’s another copywriter that’s just focused on content and brand strategy, and I’m focused on PDPs and landing pages, and it’s fantastic. And now I’m like, Hey, can you take a peek at this PDP does this make sense? Do you think this is gonna work well with your you know what, what you’re doing? She’s like, No, change this and change that. And I’m like, it’s so nice to have another copywriter there. So if you’re also someone who has been a solopreneur their entire career, you know you’ve been in this echo chamber with your copy, and you’re not quite sure if it’s still kind of good. Sometimes getting a part time role and getting other opinions, getting some other marketing folks to kind of peek at your stuff is a great way to rebuild your confidence, too. After some months of being like, wow, clients are kind of declining. Is it me? Does my copy suck? Have I lost my chops? No, you haven’t just get some other folks to work with that might offer you a confidence boost and some new copy ideas.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, while we’re talking about some of these mindset things as well, I want to just add staying positive is really critical here, and it is not easy to do if your business has suffered a downturn, if clients are leaving, if you’re struggling to increase rates, or, you know, people are asking for reduction in hours, reduction in projects, those kinds of things. It’s really hard to stay positive, but it is so important that you do stay positive, that you’re reflecting, you know, these, these positive outcomes, not only for yourself, but for your clients, because people see that they’re drawn to positive energy. And you know, if we, if we start approaching clients negatively or in desperation, you know, all of these things that we might be feeling internally, it sort of goes against this industry advice that you need to be vulnerable. You need to be sharing everything. And there are times when that’s appropriate, but when you are trying to find clients, when you’re trying to find work, when you’re trying to connect with people, build your network, build friendships or relationships, that is not the time to be evoking all of these negative energies. So stay positive.

Topaz Hooper: That’s true. And one way to keep your spirit up, if you’re someone that just really loves to give, you really love the act of giving copy and writing copy, because it’s an act of service for something. You can volunteer. It’s incredible. You can join a board and do some of the copy for the for the for the Board’s website. For example, I just recently started volunteering at an animal sanctuary, and they’re like, We need a copywriter to help us. And I’m like, great. I’m like, they’re like, they want three hours a week. I’m like, I can do that. And what it does is it still keeps my optimism high. I’m like, I’m still valuable. I still have something to give. It’s not that I am valueless because my clients have shriveled up these last three months, I still have something to give, and I’m doing it for a very good, good cause. And kind of circling back to the networking thing, what happens is, is when you volunteer, you get introduced to new people. And those new people say, Wow, this animal sanctuary websites, amazing. Who wrote this? Of course, the founder is happy to say, this person that I know is a copywriter, and she’s fantastic. And then companies start to look at you and say, Oh, well, we actually are hiring, you know. Do you have some time, you know? And so sometimes a volunteership, or, you know, helping your kids, you know, school organization with some marketing stuff, or spending your energy in a positive way can reinforce the positivity in your mind and your business, but also continue to operate as a networking tool as well. And so keeping yourself busy is fantastic, and it’s a good way to keep your spirit high if you’re feeling like the recession is looming. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love that. This whole discussion, I think, has been a really good reminder of the things that we should be doing in our business all of the time. They become a little bit more critical as we approach some kind of a potential downturn or a recession or a change in business. So this is the stuff we should be doing. If you haven’t been doing it, start. Start doing this stuff more. Do it now. You know, work on your systems. Work on how you’re talking about your business. Look for new relationships, new friends. Stay positive. All of these things are so critically important.

Topaz Hooper: Yes, and just keep your mental, your financial and your business health in order at all times, if possible, especially at your highest times. You know, don’t be afraid to go back in and say, How can I keep this strong?

And I just would encourage all the copywriters just to really know, like, if you’re feeling there’s a slowdown, it’s not you. I just want everyone to know it’s not you. Your copy still rocks. You know, you’re still an amazing business owner. Keep going, and there’s always a rainbow at the end of the storm. So we will get through this. We will survive, and we will have amazing copywriting businesses.

Rob Marsh: Absolutely. That sounds like a really good place to stop, but topaz, if somebody wants to catch up with you, follow you. Find you as the American copywriter living right now in Europe, helping businesses, you know, Americanize their copy or reach new audiences. Where should they go?

Topaz Hooper: Yeah, so you can find me at americancopywriterco.com, and also you can find me on Instagram, at the same handle, and on LinkedIn, you can punch in American copywriter CO, and you’ll find me in the company section, but yeah, those are great places to connect with me. And if there are any global businesses out there that need copywriters or need a copywriter to help them translate their amazing business into a message that American audiences will understand, I’m your girl, so thanks again for the time, Rob. I really appreciate it. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah, of course, I will link to all of that in the show notes, so people can find you easily. Go back and listen to episode number 305, when Topaz talked about her first business, you get to know a lot about her as well. This has been a great conversation. Thanks Topaz for making it happen. I appreciate it.

Topaz Hooper:  Thank you so much. 

Rob Marsh: Thanks Topaz for sharing the details of your career journey, business change and what you’re doing to prepare for an economic downturn. It’s hard to predict where the economy is headed with changes to inflation, tarrifs or not-tariffs, the just flared up war in Iran that may spike oil prices which can have effects on other parts of the economy… it’s quite possible we don’t see a recession this year or next. But it’s also very possible we see one, so it makes sense to prepare. Getting ready for the inevitable, won’t hurt your business in the meantime, but it will help if the worst actually happens.

I’ve linked to Topaz’s website in the shownotes, as well as our first interview with her a few years ago, and the article on our website about prepping for a recession. You can find them all at TheCopywriterClub.com

There’s nothing new about these ideas we’ve been talking about… building your network, starting a side hustle, making more offers, cutting expenses both in your business and personal life so you don’t run out of money, and staying positive… if you do this stuff in addtion to building a great busienss by solving big problems for your clients, you’ll do okay when the worst happens.

Finally, I mentioned this at the top of the show, our course, Research Mastery will give you the ideas and insights you need to write better copy, get more impressive results, and increase sales and conversions that will keep clients coming back to you for more. You can learn more about this course at thecopywriterclub.com/researchmastery. Get it today.

That’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast.

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