Sexvangelicals

What did you want to be when you grew up? In EMPish (Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal) settings, growing up is commonly centered around finding your soulmate, getting married, having kids, and enhancing the church community. Or, as Julia says, “A person's dreams must serve the greater purpose of evangelism.” “When we consider gender,” she continues, “the complications get worse. Women support the “dreams” of their husbands. Husbands support the “dreams” of the larger church dictated by the pastor and the broader goals of the American Christian church, often supporting white nationalism and other conservative agendas.” We talk with Nicki and Stephen Pappas, authors of the upcoming book Becoming Egalitarian, about how, by attempting to adhere to the standards of the church, they lost themselves and their dreams. They talk with us specifically about: Making Dreams Come True (2:00): This episode explores the Gottman principle of making dreams come true, individually and within a partnership. Jeremiah gives the example: “So when we consider life dreams from the partnership perspective, we may be referring to individual or shared dreams. For example, Julia and I have individual dreams of writing two different books. And we also have a shared dream of what we want to create with Sexvangelicals. Nurturing and supporting both individual and shared dreams are vital for the health of a relationship.” Gender and Dreams Within the Church (7:00): Julia explains “Sadly, a person's dreams must serve the greater purpose of evangelism. And then when we consider gender, the complications here get worse. Breaking it down. Women support the quote-unquote dreams of their husbands. Husbands support the dreams of the larger church dictated by the pastor and the broader goals of the American Christian church, often supporting white nationalism and other conservative agendas.” Gearing up for Marriage (19:00): Nicki shares what the confines of dating within the EMPish Church looked like: “There was kind of a lighthearted playfulness between us—flirty, just fun. Because of the pressure and the whole movement bolstered by I Kissed Dating Goodbye, it becomes this serious vibe of ‘Would I marry this person? Because if not, then we can't waste time.’ And I can't be emotionally cheating on my future spouse by being flirty with this person. That very much dampened our playfulness in a big way.” Motherhood and Marriage (27:00): Nicki describes existing as a woman within a Christian structure: “I want to be the definition of success in a space, right? And so when I'm told that being a wife is what I'm called to do, and then that being a mother is God's highest and holiest calling, this is what gets me like the currency in this space. This is what gets me the social capital is to be the best helper.” All desires and dreams are stripped, and the only true callings are motherhood and marriage. She goes on to say: “I can't be the best teacher and be the best wife and mom.” The Church however does not set up structures to aid people through this emotionally or physically. It is challenging to chase after dreams that are not allowed to exist within the confines of the Church walls. Lack of Sex Education (41:00): Stephen talks about how men and women were taught about sex, and how women are taught to never deny sex and to consistently encourage it once married, while men are taught no sex before marriage and that men have naturally high libidos which will activate on the wedding night. “[Nicki] was told you either can't say no to sex, you say yes or convince me. That was this model that was upheld. For me, you know, growing up in the church, it's always like no sex before marriage, that's sinful, right? And so, I didn't. And even got to the point where it's like, okay, no kissing because it's too tempting to do that and not go further.” This idea plays into the light-switch theory once again, and how the second “I Do” is said, all the knowledge and desire of sex will just flow through your veins with no education or knowledge. What Happens When You Don’t Perform the Gender Scripts, Sexually or Otherwise (45:00): Jeremiah adds: “Thinking about the cultural messages, not just the religious messages around, you know, what happens to women who have very quick sexual accelerators, the slut shaming that happens, all the negative language, that women are given both inside and outside of marriage. And then also the same thing for men who have a higher brake system, the shaming language, often the homophobic language that gets directed towards men who have a stronger brake and the dual response cycle that you were referring to.” The Church tends to hurl homophobic and sexist language at people who differ from their idea of the norm, harming folks who do not fit into the rigid mold the Church prescribes to people. No Room for Dreaming (49:00): Stephen talks about how challenging it is to realize how controlling the Church makes life. ”It can seem so weird, like how could you live like this? Looking back on it and talking about it now, it made so much sense to me. It just seemed like this is the way It's supposed to be and this is what the Bible says, and this is what it means. Therefore, this is what we're supposed to pursue, and on so many levels, whether that's relationships or how we live in the world, how we spend our money, how we spend our free time. I was just thinking about how controlling it sounds and because it is, and, I'm really just starting to see that more clearly now. It's a big process for me to heal from.” Nicki and Stephen will talk with us next week about how they rediscovered ways to build dreams individually and together. We can’t wait to share that episode with you. Let’s heal together!

Purity Culture isn’t just a collection of pithy quotes and misappropriation of Scripture about bodies and relationships.    It’s a creation of a myriad of businesses, media, and political systems that work together to showcase and reinforce the existence of particular types of relationships.   We’ve learned that understanding the larger context of Purity Culture, from the intersection of theology and American history to the cultural icons and legislative processes that these create, has helped us in our own deconstruction process.    Which is also true for our guests this week, Teddi and Nick from the podcast Oh God I Forgot About That. They study cultural and literary artifacts from the 90s and 00s and talk about how each of these got used and enhanced to propagate the larger goals of Purity Culture. They talk with us this week about:   Cosmic Consequences (10:00): “I say this basically every single episode. When you attach cosmic consequences to anything you guarantee it's going to be messed up. You're creating trauma. You're creating anxieties. And that's what I did.” Nick highlights the quintessential issue within the Church, and that is attaching God-given consequences to actions. For instance, if you have sex before marriage, you are going to go to hell. This type of thinking fosters intense anxiety within folks because it gets rid of their ability to explore life without feeling like they will be punished for stepping out of line. Deconstruction Within Relationships (12:00): Julia and Jeremiah both speak on how deconstruction happens within relationships, romantic or not, and how it is not the solo experience it is so often pictured to be. Julia says: “I’ve also noticed that some folks in the early stages of deconstruction can sometimes understandably overcompensate because they've been in these enmeshed communities for maybe decades. And so understandably, they want to start making their own individual autonomous choices as we should. However, as Jeremiah and I are relationship therapists, the deconstruction world doesn't always give good resources for how we still live in relationships all the time, not just with partners.” She mentions that many folks may struggle with moving too far into an isolated space as a form of regaining autonomy. Jeremiah adds:  “And a good reminder that deconstruction happens in relationships. This isn't a person like sailing away on their own solitary boat out into the great blue ocean. This happens through the conversations that y'all are talking about and, sometimes with partners, sometimes not with partners and that's exciting. It's complicated.” He talks about how deconstruction is happening within the context of our relationships, and it’s important to have these conversations because deconstruction looks different for everyone, however we all have people in our lives and it’s important to figure out how to navigate this enormous change. Physical Contact Through a Sexual Lens (22:00): “My partner said something brilliant, we were just having this conversation about the reason men misunderstand their sexual urges and desires. Especially men in the church are two-pronged. The first is what we've already talked about, which is you're always already in sexual temptation. But the other is, that men are conditioned to not be physical with each other, except in the context of violence. Or competition, right? So you can, you can have a football huddle. You can do the bro hug where you do the weapons check and the smack on the back. You can punch fists. But, there is no physical intimacy encouraged or allowed in masculine spheres. And then when you're man to woman, boy to girl, forget it, it's off limits. You are, as a human being, boxed into this corner where no physical intimacy, except maybe your parents. So then because the only valence for physical contact that you as a man in the church are given is sexuality, right? Yeah, all of your desire for any sort of physical contact or physical intimacy that isn't necessarily sexual. Gets filtered through that sexual lens.” Nick describes how the Church creates an environment in which physical touch is only offered to men through a violent lens or sexual one. This also creates a world view where sexuality is informed by violence and feeds into the idea that men are inherently violent.  Creating the Podcast (27:00): “Eleanor Roosevelt said something along the lines of like you'd be like delighted and disturbed to know how little people are actually thinking about you. And that proved true with the podcast. Like I have heard from no one about it. I mean, they could all be listening. All the people from my youth could be listening and discussing it behind my back. Perhaps they're not. I've had a few people who are more in the deconstruction stage of their faith, say that they're listening and that it's helpful to them, they almost presented in a kind of envious way, like, I can't wait to be on the other side and be able to talk about this the way you guys are talking about it, but for those who are deep in the church, like, I haven't heard anything from them and occasionally I will wonder what they're thinking, because how can you not?” Teddi talks about the challenges that come along with creating a podcast that talks about the Church, after years of being deeply rooted within it. The Church creates a Panopticon system, where everyone has the fear of being watched and told on, but is not sure if they are being watched at that moment. It generates an environment where trust is a challenging thing.   Separating the Individual and the Institution (32:00): “That's a conversation I've had with a few people in my life about the podcast because I know a lot of folks who are still in the church are still in conservatism and they have listened or they've like known that I've done it. […] I'm in a much better place where I can let everyone have their spiritual journey, and that's a very beneficial and important place for me, but the thing that I emphasize in those conversations is, again, the difference between the institution and the individual, right? When we look at somebody like Rob Bell, or we look at something like the Eldridge, you know, John and Stacey Eldridge's books, right?  They feel fluffy, they feel vapid, anodyne, but they're put in this context where they become defining for not just the culture, but patterns of thought.” Nick talks about how it’s essential to let everyone have their own spiritual journey. Many folks who deconstruct are confronted by the people in their lives who still subscribe to Church ideologies, and many of those people feel personally attacked when someone is deconstructing. What is important on both sides is allowing folks to have their own relationship with spirituality and religion. Another point Nick covers is how Christian authors define thought, despite clearly lacking deep and meaningful research. As discussed many times on Sexvangelicals, Christian authors will use small sample sizes in their research, will fall back on Biblical principles, and sometimes, just straight up lie. What is dangerous however is their impact on thought within the Church and especially on young folks to whom these books are distributed too.  Doctrine Over Relationships (46:00): “Jeremiah and I always come back to the idea of a relationship. We had a conversation with Tia Levings, who people probably recognize from Shiny Happy People, and she describes fundamentalism as anything that puts a doctrine or a dogma over a human relationship.” Julia discusses a fundamental issue within the Church, which is putting doctrine over people. A key example of this is an unmarried couple who will abstain from sex because they believe they will go to hell for engaging in sex or with their sexuality. This is putting doctrine over relationships because this can and will harm many folks and their relationships because it makes sex the enemy and then sex becomes an enemy that has to be engaged with for the rest of their married lives. 

While much attention has been given to the Evangelical contingent of American conservative Christianity, it's important to note that even though systems of worship may be different, Pentecostal Christians navigate sexuality, relationships, and bodies in similarly troubling ways as Evangelical and Mormon communities do. This week, we're thrilled to have Teddi and Nick, co-hosts of the podcast Oh God I Forgot About That, to talk more about how their upbringings in Pentecostal communities impacted understandings of gender, dating relationships, and sexuality. We talk specifically about: Defining EMPish (10:00): “So in the post-Christian, in the deconstruction world, the denominations and the language that gets used most commonly is Evangelical. But what we find is that Mormon churches and Pentecostal churches, that their structures are very similar to Evangelical churches, Baptist churches, and non-denominational churches. So the styles of worship may be a little bit different, but the leadership structures, the communication patterns within the church for the sake of our expertise, the communication around bodies and sexuality, very, very similar.” Jeremiah highlights and defines the similarities between the EMPish circles covered. Even though some of these churches may come off as more charismatic by incorporating music and fun, they still project the same messages around sexuality, marriage, and purity.  Purity Rings (20:00): “So we worked at a stable together and I remember her like showing me this like glistening ring on her fourth finger and she was about maybe 14, 15. And she explained the promise ring concept to me. And you know, it was all so exciting. It was like, she got to pick out the ring and her dad gave it to her. And then the Pentecostal church that I was in, we had something called the Missionettes program for girls. I want to say around 14, you had the opportunity to do a promise ring ceremony where the girls wore white and then they got their ring from their fathers. And then the whole church attended. So there was just so much excitement built up around it and I, it was one of the first times that I like paused and was sort of like, oh, like, this is like something that I'm planning for that I am anticipating, which the great irony of this being, I wouldn't have been thinking about sex had the church not brought it to my attention, like I was still very innocent.” Teddy shares her experience around purity rings and talks about how the Church brings sex to the forefront of children’s minds when sex would not have been on their minds if not for the constant shame. The Church consistently shames people for thinking about sex and sexuality all while making that the main focus of sermons, learning, and life. Jeremiah adds: “Teddy, thinking about the role that fathers play in this fairy tale as well. The father-daughter relationship in the evangelical and Pentecostal church. The connection between the father-daughter relationship and the purity ring ceremonies. The fact that father's jobs in theories are to simultaneously protect their daughters from objectification. But Teddy, also like what you're saying, protect their daughters from objectification when they're like eight.”  Double-Edged Sword (23:00 - 25:00): “[This] two-pronged thing where sexuality was always pitched to me and the other boys as a source of temptation. It was exclusively and explicitly a temptation that was inevitable and shameful. And any single woman or girl you know could be the target of this uncontrollable thing that you unleash, right? So it created sort of this two-pronged, like, struggle with any sort of friendship that could be potentially viewed as a romantic relationship, you know? Having friends that were girls. When I was a boy, just, oh, are they thinking this about me, or, oh, you know, I try to just do something that's a normal friendship thing, and it gets misconstrued as an advance, or something that needs to be defended against” Nick speaks about the double-edged sword the Church presents young men with, which is that they cannot control their sexual impulses and any attempt at friendship is misconstrued into an advance. Julia then adds: “I think I say basically every single episode that what you're describing around the gender construction is this awful combination of both misandry and misogyny at the same time that you as a man are this inherently sexual predator. And that women exist as floating bodies that are the object of objectification. And also, for men, there's this double bind that they are these sexual monsters, and that's how God made them. But also they have to fight it, and it's such a mindfuck!” She highlights once again this idea that God made men sexual predators and they must fight this instinct, but also how this idea shrinks women down to essentially objects because they cannot and do not have any sexual desires or thoughts.  Passiveness (32:00): “It was just boring as hell and at its worst it made you passive in your own life. It made you just a spectator to your own life. So I think that that probably explains why I didn't even become really all that interested or willing to pursue relationships until college, or even like curious about my identity until college because there was no script for what it looked like for women to pursue, talk about these things, explore these things because you were just waiting.” Teddy talks about how women were given no script or support or even an idea of what sexuality looked like for them. This plays back into the light switch metaphor touched on last week, and how the script essentially does not exist until your wedding night, and suddenly it’s just supposed to flip on then and there. “And you could argue that that passiveness also creates another narrative about women being objects in the passivity. Prior to marriage, women are essentially these asexual beings, and that asexuality is what protects the purity of the relationship.” Julia highlights how the idea that women are asexual pre-marriage, protects the integrity of the relationship from the sexual predator man that they are dating, feeding into the misandry/misogyny the Church spews. Infantilization (42:00): “That double bind is perfectly encapsulated by these two moments that I very vividly have in my mind. The first is, I remember going on a trip with her church, and her youth pastor had taken over the church, and we sat next to each other on the church van, and he leans in the church van over her, and he starts, like, jamming his hand between our thighs. And like doing this and I scooted over and he goes, just making sure there's room for the Holy Spirit. And then he closed the door ominously on and we went off. So there's that like infantilization.” Nick covers an aspect of the Church’s approach to sex and sexuality which is the infantilization of teenagers and adults. Within EMPish circles, people are encouraged to get married incredibly young, which is a very adult decision, yet they have hands jammed between their thighs in Church vans to leave room for the Holy Spirit.        

SHOW NOTES   Positive Perspective (4:00): “Let's very quickly review what we mean when we say the positive perspective, specifically as it relates to sexuality. As you may be, and are probably intimately aware, folks from Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal communities, EMPish communities, often struggle to have a positive perspective about sexuality when dominant messaging from these communities focuses on no.” Julia starts us off by defining positive perspective in the context of EMPish communities, as most of the sexual education is focused on denying sexuality. Jeremiah adds: “Positive perspective is not necessarily about the emotional expression. It could be about emotional expression. But it's more so about supporting you in creating an openness to possibility. The possibility to have a mutually pleasurable sexual experience.” A positive perspective focuses on a positive outlook rather than just positive emotions, and a positive outlook on sexuality is not fostered within EMPish circles.   The Post-Marriage Script (9:00): “The enmeshed nature of Christian relationships, which we will come back to at the end of this episode. In one of the classes about sexuality, the instructor talked about the importance of abstinence during the dating and engagement period because, and I quote, this is the only time in the course of your relationship that you won't be having sex.” Julia shares her experience during “Leap of Faith” in which an instructor perpetuated the EMPish myth that a healthy non-stop sex life will come about the second people get married. Jeremiah says, “So that's a perfect example of what I mean when I say that the post-marriage script not only focuses on the expectation of sex but the expectation that sex will always be present on a very regular basis.” The post-marriage script essentially promises people that sex will be regular and consistent but gives them no tools to actually create a healthy sex life.   Communication (14:00): “Communication skills for navigating sexuality are essential for couples to develop a sense of sexual positivity. In EMPish communities, couples do not learn about how to solve problems or negotiate differences between couples outside of prayer and these weird metaphors for sacrifice like washing feet.” Jeremiah talks about how the only system in place for couples to negotiate differences is prayer, but no other systems are put in place to aid in communication. He continues: “EMPish communities also say that sex is a representation of Jesus caring for the church. Which, going back to the Joshua Butler book that we talked about a few months ago. When you're representing Jesus and the body of Christ, that puts a lot of pressure on the sexual relationship without either general communication skills or sex-specific communication skills.”    Light Switch (29:00): “That is actually the myth that we are debunking. So I'd like to come back to the idea of the light switch that both of us referenced. The myth from the church is that upon getting married, we transition seamlessly into marital sexual bliss. I've noticed that a similar myth in the deconstruction and sex therapy world […] So when folks leave religious communities, or maybe they are still a part of a religious community and they are unpacking and unlearning some of these negative messages, they expect a similarly fast transition for healing to occur.” Julia speaks about the light switch metaphor which essentially boils down to the idea that the second people get married, their entire sexuality and sexual life just switches on. This is harmful because when that doesn’t happen, people feel ashamed of themselves. The light switch metaphor also applies to deconstruction, because many folks find themselves confused that after they leave the Church that all their problems have not disappeared overnight. It is important to give ourselves patience and time to heal and grieve.      Enmeshment, Individuation, and Differentiation (35:00):  “I want to talk about three things. One is enmeshment. Two, individuation. Three differentiation: ENMESHMENT: “Enmeshment is a relational marker. Enmeshment is essentially a lack of healthy boundaries. One way this looks is that a person's sexuality belongs to the community or a spouse. A person's not allowed to make individual choices. They must conform to the dictates of the community. And if you are a woman, you must submit to male authority.” Jeremiah defines our first term, which is key to understanding EMPish relationships. The relationship is not private, it is held to the standards of a group and thus has no room for individuality and choice. INDIVIDUATION “In the early stages of deconstruction, they sometimes overcompensate when moving into individuation. And individuation is a process of doing things for yourself, regardless of what other people might say.” Jeremiah notes that as people move through their deconstruction journey they may go too hard into individuation, which then erases the needs of their partner and relationship.  DIFFERENTIATION: “Differentiation is a process of doing things for yourself in a relationship with other people. This means that you have to take into account that your partner may want to do something completely different. Or their style or personality traits means that the way that they do the thing you want to do is different from the way that you want.” Jeremiah closes out by defining differentiation, which Julia and Jeremiah use examples to contextualize further.  Relationship 101 (51:00): “Relationship 101 today is in two parts, and both of these will sound very basic and very simple. In some ways, they are basic in the sense of being foundational, but not so simple in practice. So number one is talking about a sexual experience before, during, and after. And number two is paying attention to differences.” Julia lays out foundational relationship 101 for today. One of the key elements is talking about and engaging with sexuality before, during, and after. Sex does not begin with foreplay, a sexual experience can begin hours before with sexting or flirting with your partner, which can make for a more extended and meaningful experience. 

We're back from our month off hiking the Alpe Adria in Austria, Slovenia, and Italy. And we pick up today where we left off, talking about the Sound Marital House model from couples therapy gurus John and Julie Gottman.   For a friendly reminder, the first three levels of the Sound Marital house are curiosity, appreciation, and leaning toward your partner. And this week, Julia and Jeremiah talk about the fourth value: the positive perspective, including: Defining Terms (10:00): “For the sake of today, we're going to say that being positive about sexuality in a partnership means being positive about the existence of eroticism in a relationship, which to be clear is not the same as sex. […] To simplify it for today, eroticism is ultimately about the presence of sexual desire, whether or not you consummate that sexuality. So we'll be focusing on positivity about the presence of sexual desire, and since this is a relationship podcast, We'll talk about the presence of sexual desire within a partnership or whatever other relational structure you have.” Julia defines positive perspective, eroticism, and sexuality in terms of today's episode. Defining clear terms is an important value for Sexvangelicals, and it is important to have a clear understanding of how we will be using these terms to navigate our topic. Hierarchy (17:00): “The gatekeeping around marriage creates an exclusionary social hierarchy in which you've got married Christian folks at the top, accessing all their God-given sexual rights. And unmarried Christian folks, one rung below, who are either dating or pursuing marriage in some sort of explicit way. Eventually, those folks may have full access to the post-marriage sex script. But until marriage, they are inherently limited. Unmarried folks who by choice or not by choice will not ever get married are the next level lower. They are not able to access the joy of sexuality in marriage.  […] And all of this is important in setting up the episode today because we are highlighting that dichotomy of the pre-marriage sexual script and the post-marriage sexual script. And I suppose if we have this hierarchy... The secular folks are just outside of this system because they refuse to participate because they're relishing in their heathen ways. Like us. Us unmarried folks who are still having sex.” Julia highlights the hierarchy within EMPish communities based on marriage status. EMPish Churches only have two scripts, one for those pre and post-marriage, creating a system where only those two realities exist. This is incredibly damaging as all your relationships in the “pre” sphere exist as a march to the wedding, as Julia will go on to share today. Preserving Purity (19:00): “So due to the gatekeeping around marriage, the dichotomy between the pre-marriage and post-marriage scripts inherently function to protect the system of social and sexual hierarchy that we just described […] So, if the pre-marriage script focuses on preserving the purity of your sexuality until you can access the post marriage script, folks hoping to get married face some, some unique sexual challenges.” Jeremiah talks about how the pre-marriage script is incredibly limited in fundamentalist communities and that the only information people hoping to get married receive is that they will unlock all these secrets about sex when they’re already married. This causes a lot of pain and grief, because the reality is without proper sex education and knowledge around sex, most of people confronted with the post-marriage script do not know what to do. He also says: “Depending on the level of fundamentalism in a person's community, the rules limiting access to sexuality may vary in strictness while still serving to protect sexual purity.” This statement encapsulates the issue at hand because the rules around sexuality in fundamentalist communities are structured around preserving purity, however, once you are married, your “purity” goes away.  It’s All About Sex (28:00): “Because I wanted to have sex. Even at the time, I had some shame around that because I knew, according to the church, that I as a woman was not supposed to have those sexual desires. Interestingly, by eradicating any meaningful sexual expression, the church's teachings actually make dating relationships all about sex.” Julia speaks about how by repressing any means of sexual expression, the church inadvertently makes dating all about sex. A lot of young couples instead of enjoying their time dating, spend time focusing on “not giving in to sin.” This puts sex on a pedestal, which in turn makes people want it more.  Shame and Grief (40:00): “The reason that this story is so essential to this episode is that you met someone that you liked, you briefly dated, you enjoyed some sexual experiences, which would be completely developmentally appropriate for a 19-year-old who's working during the summer months while in college, but instead of enjoying it, instead of learning about yourself and exploring relational and sexual values, you obsessed over your sin.” Jeremiah says in response to Julia’s story. He talks about how instead of being able to relax into developmentally appropriate desires she had to spend her entire relationship worrying about sinning. Julia then adds: “Yes. I'm sad for my 19-year-old self, and I know that this story is not unique. I can't tell you how many times I've supported clients in grieving what they lost due to sexual shame. And I'm not specifically grieving the relationship itself, I'm grieving that I lost the opportunity to get to know myself and I'm grieving how much pleasure and fun not just sexual pleasure and fun that the shame stole from you.” She shares the grief of not being able to have those “normal” experiences because of the fundamentalist community she was in. EMPish communities have a focus on teaching people shame, not on teaching people about sexuality, and shame dictates the pre-marriage script.  Lack of Eroticism (49:00): “Sex was finally allowed. And that actually killed a big part of the eroticism for me and for many people. The massive barriers to sexuality created by purity culture actually make sex pretty sexy. But folks like me and like so many others didn't know how to create and build eroticism on their own without those barriers. Which often causes sex to be pretty disappointing after the barriers of purity culture are no longer present.  […] Second, sexuality was now not only allowed, it was expected. Which I know you'll discuss more in your episode, Jeremiah, and that generated a lot of sexual pressure for me. This thing, intercourse, was expected, but I didn't have relational or individual literacy about sexuality or tools to co-create a pleasurable experience.” Julia shares how after the barriers to entry were removed, there was no eroticism present nor was there a way for her to engage in sexuality due to the lack of resources and knowledge. EMPish communities foster an environment where people are forbidden to have sexual desires and thoughts up until their wedding night, and they are just expected to know right after they say “I Do.”   Beginning the Conversation Around Neutrality (1:04:00): “Neutrality means that you do not actively want sex. And you are open to go full circle to the possibility of a sexual experience. So, I learned that you don't have to wait until you really want to have sex to have a great sexual experience. So, if the responsive desire is a big part of the sexual template for many individuals, many couples, or throuples or whatever your group, then we've got to actually figure out what to do with that. Simply knowing that responsive desire is important for folks or the dominant template for folks isn't enough. And in future episodes, we're going to be talking about what does it mean to take that neutrality. Take that responsive desire and build something that hopefully is really fun and pleasurable.” Julia explains what neutrality and responsive desire are, a topic that will be explored more in the coming months. It is important to highlight in this Relationship 101 that sexual desire looks different for everyone and to not hold yourself to the same standard as everyone else, because it looks different for everyone as Jeremiah notes:  “And one of the things that we'll come across when we do this, just to skip ahead a little bit, is the idea of conflict. Yes. Because... How you access sexuality, Julia, is going to be different from how I access sexuality. And we've got to figure out how to navigate those differences and to create something that works for both of us. That both of us really enjoy. And conflict doesn't have to be scary, it doesn't have to be fighting, anything like that. Even though some emotions will probably come up for folks, even for you and I, as we navigate this.”

After our month-long foray into the disturbing literature from the Evangelical Christian publishing industry, we continue our new series The Sex Ed We Wish We Had. Last month, we interviewed Doug Braun-Harvey, who describes the six sexual health principles that we and many other sexual health providers use as their rubric for co-creating healthy sexual encounters. We begin with a two-part series on consent, which, to quote the Harvey Institute (8:40): “Consent means voluntary cooperation communicates permission to try and reach sexual satisfaction and intimacy with willing partners. Consent transforms the act of sex from invasion, intrusion, or violation into an act of transformation. Establishing consent throughout each step of a sexual interaction provides each sexual partner space for sexual safety and pleasure that's consistent with their sexual desire.” We also address: Consent in Church and the Country (9:50): “Consent in our country has been about folks, primarily men, getting as far as they can sexually while escaping rape allegations or charges. Similar to the church, American culture has given women the responsibility of gatekeeping men's sexuality. While keeping themselves safe from violence,” Jeremiah says. Consent is a tool used by men to absolve themselves from any hurt or crime they may have committed. It is not seen as something that should be intrinsically tied to sex. Julia then makes the connection that, “so often the Christian Church establishes themselves as countercultural. However, in terms of sexuality, the status of so many sexual health principles are quite similar. Within and outside of church walls, we have long taught women best practices for avoiding assault.” The conversation around consent usually centers around the metaphor of wearing a bulletproof vest instead of just banning guns.  The Process of Affirmative Consent (11:55): “Learn that consent is the proactive negotiation of pleasure. To catch onto this concept, a religious university in Ohio was the first to develop a model for affirmative consent.” Julia notes as we give props to a Christian institution on this podcast for probably the first time. They then list the seven principles of affirmative consent:  Explicitness. A yes must be expressed verbally. Voluntariness. The yes must be given voluntarily without pressure or coercion.   Ability to consent. Intoxicated people, people under a certain age are unable to give consent. A shift of responsibility. They mean the person who initiates the sexual act has the responsibility to obtain the consent of all participants in non-coercive ways. Freedom from presumption. Consent must be obtained repeatedly for each new sexual act. Informedness. All participants must know what consent is being given for, in particular, when we think about the role of the receiver, what would it be like to have a sexual experience where the initiator says, hey, this is what I want to kind of work through. Revocability. A previously given consent can be withdrawn at any time.  These seven principles are without nuance, which we will dive into next, but still are a strong framework and guide to affirmative consent. As well as, great starting points and rules for someone to follow.  The Simplifying of Consent (15:40): “Consent is actually very complicated. Even in more progressive circles, I've noticed this impulse to try and make consent as simple as possible. We actually have so many different contextual factors to take into account with each sexual scenario. With each of the seven principles, we can't actually package consent into a simple formula.” Julia adds to the conversation about affirmative consent, saying that even though this is a great framework, consent cannot be distilled into a simple idea. It is okay that consent is nuanced and complicated, and that is what they are exploring today. Heteronormativity (21:00): “Heteronormativity relies on narratives about how men and women enact sexuality differently inside the church. As we talked about in reading the Butler series and in the seven deadly sexual sins according to the church, but also outside of the church, we have the false narrative that men are inherently more sexual and that women have the duty to perform sexuality according to the socialized norms of what men crave sexual,” Jeremiah says. We explore the effects of heteronormativity throughout different episodes, but pertaining to the idea of consent, this heteronormative dynamic affects how consent is given and received. Many women in heterosexual relationships feel the need to say yes, and many men feel the need to initiate sex, even if they do not want to have sex.  Sex Therapist Training and Consent (31): Jeremiah talks about his experience how, in one of his sex therapy training classes, he learned what consent actually looked like, and also how his heterosexual relationship fit into a larger context within society. “I was also so stuck in the emotional cycle of protecting my ex at the time, that I didn't have the wherewithal to realize the larger societal context for our relational interaction. But in this particular class, I internalized this.” He then talks about his experience unpacking much of the ingrained ideology about martial consent within the context of Christianity.  Christianity and Consent (39): “The most heartbreaking part is that we were both trying hard to be the best partners that we could be, and the patterns that developed from our best efforts, which were modeled to us by Christian culture and Christian leaders were strong contributors to our divorce and set the stage for both of us to have years of non-consensual sexual experiences," Julia talks about how Christianity establishes that consent happens only once at the altar, and never again. This has negative repercussions as sex does not equal an enjoyable and safe experience for the people involved, but quite the opposite.  These are hard conversations to have, and next week, we’ll talk more about Julia’s experience navigating sexuality and consent in her marriage, before concluding with some Relationship 101. Let’s heal together!

16 years ago, Linda Kay Klein embarked on a storytelling journey that would change her life (and the lives of many others). In her 2018 book Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free, Linda captures the experiences of hundreds of women, herself included, who grew up within and confronted the consequences of the Evangelical purity culture movement in the 90s and early 2000s. Through Pure and her nonprofit, Break Free Together, Linda has created numerous spaces to bring folks together to share their stories about repression, bravery, and ultimately freedom. We are thrilled to have her as a podcast guest! Freedom comes in expected and unexpected ways. For instance, in this episode, learn how shrimp tails and boxes drawn on a dorm room wall were formative experiences that helped Linda access the bravery to tell the story that she was so afraid to share. “The great thing about doing something that you’re really, really afraid of is the feeling when you survive.” Linda, Jeremiah, and Julia also discuss: What makes purity culture particularly appealing and damaging to adolescents (10:00): At a time in which youth are particularly vulnerable, leaders within the purity culture movement combine language of belonging and intense emotionality to create a culture of conformity. Linda describes, “When I left Evangelicalism, I had to contend with how damaging it was. I went in with a pretty good sense of myself and the world.” Sadly, the confines of purity culture had long-lasting, devastating consequences. The grief and anger that accompanied the writing process (21:30): Initially, Linda was hopeful when she met other women who could relate to her story. “But then, when the numbers started to add up, and it became clear that this was a lot of people who are hurting, that became something to grieve over time.” Additionally, the systemic coverup of overt and covert sexual abuse in churches and the ensuing silencing of survivors showed that the people who were supposed to protect a generation of women had failed to keep them safe. The confusion in finding your freedom (30:00): As a sexual health coach, Linda’s clients often want to dive right into “fixing” sexual problems. Linda wisely takes a step back and asks people to explore simpler decisions. After all, purity culture’s rigid binary system increases the anxiety around the decision-making process. Identifying what you want sexually is really challenging when you’re not even sure how to decide what you want for dinner. What it’s like to have relationships with people who are “worried” about you (42:00): When a person leaves Evangelicalism, those within the community tend to worry about your wellbeing, and even your salvation. Linda describes her experiences of navigating this, and Jeremiah and Julia introduce a potential support group: Moms of Millenials Straying from the Church. How motherhood impacts sexuality (58:00): Linda describes how she talks about sexuality with her 19-year-old stepdaughter differently than she experienced in the church, and how parenting a newborn can introduce a new type of intimacy within the couple and family relationships. Wherever you are in your journey toward sexual freedom, we hope that you can find comfort and healing in the power of telling and sharing stories. Let’s heal together!

Tia Levings is a writer and content creator whose work explores the female narrative in patriarchal spaces. A survivor of church-sanctioned domestic violence, Tia shares the realities of Christian Fundamentalism, and sheds light on the strategic influence high control religion has on our society and headlines today. Her memoir releases in 2024 with St. Martin’s Press and you can find her videos on Instagram and Tiktok. We are thrilled to have Tia share her experience of surviving and escaping a religious fundamentalist community, discovering healing and self-exploration, and using her story to help others find their own versions of healing. In this episode, Tia talks with us about: Religious fundamentalism (6:00). Tia defines fundamentalism as “putting ideals over people. Nothing is more important than the idea. Human-to-human connection gets shunned because there’s danger about connecting around a human need.” For three decades, Tia’s cultural context was rooted in “a base human fear, and someone else in a position of power who presents an attractive solution. These folks can take the things that mean the most to me to exploit and serve their purposes. When it doesn’t work out, the person gets blamed, not the system. They never want to admit that their system may not be working.” Women in fundamentalism (12:00): Tia reminds us that "Christianity teaches at its heart that a young girl [Mary] was impregnated by a deity and became a vessel. She is objectified and used for a purpose.” This young woman gets very little character development, despite her importance, and Tia draws upon the parallel process to describe the role of women in these systems: “I had one job—satisfy my husband and bear babies. A woman’s brain never factors in. What’s necessary is her hands, service, womb, and vagina.” Messages around sexuality (24:00): Tia describes purity culture as such: “My job as a Christian girl was to stay pure and refine my Christian sweetness. No touch, no hand holding, no relationship, no crushes because you don’t want to hold someone else’s spouse’s hands. You’re pure. You’re sweet. He [because same-sex marriages are unacceptable in conservative Christianity] decides that he wants you and says that he’s sent from God. That’s how engagement worked.” Tia was married by 19 and had three children by the age of 23 in the name of being a “good Christian girl”. Deconstruction (43:00): Tia’s marriage and community gradually became more conservative and, in her case, extremely dangerous, but Tia found online platforms, specifically blogging, as her first system for practicing deconstruction. She says, “The virtual spaces gave me a space to exist. I wasn’t allowed to be me in the real world, but online, I had control and agency on how to present myself. The relationships with these people were folks who hid me when I was on the run. There’s power when you have a space to exist and grow.” The dangers of change (58:00): When one person in a system begins to change, typically, the other members of that system will do whatever they can to keep said person stuck in their known, familiar roles. Tia compares her change experience with war, an especially potent metaphor given the fact that conservative Christianity is invested in war. She explains, “Your life is preparing for the war so you can usher in the second coming in Christ and bring the rapture. You’re either going to get raptured in the beginning, middle, or all the way through, which is the big Armageddon. This becomes self fulfilling prophecies because they’re creating the end times in the ways they’re behaving.” Tia’s change resulted in her being excommunicated from her religious community (she’s in good company, having her life threatened, and having to go into hiding. Knowing yourself and the nervous system acclimation (1:23:00): Healing involves learning and listening to the type of person that you are based on your own traits and needs, rather than the type of person society tells you to be. In Tia’s case, this involved reengaging with her high sense of sensitivity, which involves creating buffers for transitioning in and out of certain experiences. We discuss differentiation, and Tia says, “you’ll know you’re in a differentiated relationship when someone will take care of you whenever you start taking care of yourself.” Tia concludes, “I had been waiting for rescue my whole life. Someday my prince will come. Someday God will save me. When it came down to it, I had to get us out of there. I’m the heroine of my own story.” The healing process from navigating and leaving religious fundamentalism is extremely daunting, and we hope that Tia’s story provides courage, imagination, and resilience for those who are in similar contexts. We heal best when we heal together!