Sexvangelicals

Transitions are a natural part of life. There are big transitions, such as a person leaving home or a child aging into adolescence. There are smaller transitions that happen everyday, such as leaving to go to work or switching from topic to topic in a conversation. A family system has to be adaptable enough to respond to transitions, and many relationship and family problems are rooted in challenges transitioning. In this episode, Julia and Jeremiah discuss three strategies to help you and your partner call effective audibles and transition effectively. We talk about: Unilateral Decision Making (11:00): Jeremiah talks about how EMPish gender scripts affect unilateral decision making: "I learned that being a good Christian man meant that I needed to take charge no matter the circumstance. I also learned that women are fragile and need caretaking. I actually, as a result of those, call quite a few audibles." Making Adjustments (13:00): Julia discusses the second "stuck point" and how that looks like in her experience. "Depending on the stakes or the level of the audible, I can get mildly anxious or even fairly panicked if it's a big audible. This can paralyze me and I struggle to take the first step towards whatever adjustments are necessary, which further reinforces the problem." Sexual Context and Audibles (16:00): Julia draws a connection between responsive sexual desire and audibles: "Responsive sexual desire means co-creating a sexual experience that one or both or all partners want, but you don't necessarily experience arousal or motivation or maybe even a high degree of interest in the sexual experience before it happens. You trust that as you and your partners move into the sexual experience that the arousal, the desire will grow and you will have a great experience. This can be true for me and maybe for you when you think about calling audibles. As I mentioned, in a moment of anxiety, I have a hard time trusting that I and you and us will be able to move through the audible well. However, what helps me is to remember a version of responsive desire, but not in a sexual context." Aftercare (19:00): Jeremiah offers the third stuck point: "Not debriefing or providing aftercare. Calling an audible means that a couple has very little time to make adjustments, which is usually stressful, and communication may be inherently limited." Preparation (21:00): Julia talks about the importance of calling smaller audibles for when bigger ones arise: "Calling smaller audibles may not need as much relational work when the stakes are low. And debriefing a very small audible might seem strange. For example, how well did we handle taking a different train than the one we had originally expected? But I would argue that these are good opportunities to practice for when you and your partners are managing the inevitable higher stakes audibles." Let's heal together!

"Romantic comedies and chick lit reflect messages that are prevalent in both secular culture and religious spaces. Although Christian spaces give lots of lip service to being counter cultural, they usually repackage the same message from popular culture with a different wrapping paper." We continue our mini-series Let's Kick Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse, with Katherine Spearing, co-founder of Tears of Eden and author of Hartfords, a historical romantic comedy. Katherine talks with us about how literature can often reinforce some of the rigid, unhelpful ideas about gender and relationships, and how writing Hartfords positively impacted her own healing process. Join us as we explore: Jane Austen and Subtle Messaging (6:00): Jeremiah muses, "The way that Katherine sets her story within the 1840s culture and subtly challenges the gender norms of the day reminds me of what makes Jane Austen so successful. Her writing doesn't incite social revolution, but the critiques about gender and family in Victorian England that she makes are noticeable enough that her female audience can explore a world in which they can push back against the boundaries in meaningful, subtle ways. Katherine [also] finds that sweet spot." The Fear of Art Within the Church (16:00): Katherine notes, "Art in general tends to be like a decade ahead of just like culture in general. One of the reasons why like fundamentalist cultures are terrified of the arts and seek to control the arts is because what the arts will make us aware of." Art as a Means of Survival (21:00): In a context with no control, Katherine offers how art was a vehicle for self-expression, "Art, and specifically theater and writing, were a big reason why I never fully lost access to my intuition within the context of a world that suppressed your internal voice and made you fear your internal voice. I do believe that I remain somewhat connected. And then when I started to understand the dynamics of abuse and trauma, that intuition came online pretty fast. It was always kind of there and I was always somewhat connected to it because of art." Psychology, Art, and the Church (26:00): Jeremiah discusses how psychotherapy, art, and the Church intersect: "The practice of psychotherapy is an intersection of science and art, and there's a lot of research and conversation that gets put into science and quantitative research, things like that. It's a lot harder to get funding for research around the art of therapy, around the ways that connect, from dialogue to more experiential types of activities." Rom Coms and the Church (31:00): Julia reflects on how romcoms reinforce Church narratives: "I am actually scared to watch a lot of movies from the 2000s in particular, especially movies that have the romantic element, because it does remind me of what I learned growing up and the ways that I learned about my body, the ways that I learned about the bodies of other people. And although the churches in my life pretended to be so counter cultural,Anything that I could watch or consume outside the church just reflected exactly what I was learning within the church walls." Friendship within Hartfords (35:00): Katherine discusses the central themes to her novel Hartfords, "Male female friendship throughout the whole story is the central relationship in the story. And that was very important to me because of expanding our view of what intimacy can look like, and we don't have to just have that in the context of a committed relationship." The Power of the Pen (40:00): Katherine shares, "Writing helps me in the family that I grew up in of just having agency. I can decide what happens here I can decide what happens with these characters. I am God here. I have the pen. I can decide and no one else can tell me how this world is supposed to be in a very different way than what was happening in real life." Deconstruction and Hartfords (45:00): Katherine talks about the novel and how it reflects the deconstruction journey, both joy and sadness: "Everyone who was in the deconstruction world can have that experience of, 'I have changed and these people that I love have not. And so we now have this natural separation that occurs because we're not in the same place anymore. And that is a good thing, yet it is so very sad. To some extent this book, as bright and happy as it is, does have that thread of grief. And I see it more now. I think of Hartfords being this lighthearted tale, yet having that sadness a little bit interwoven within the story." Healing (59:00): Julia brings the two-part episodes to together, and the movement from spiritual abuse to the healing process: "The important, dark reckoning with spiritual abuse, and as heavy and awful as it is, that is a necessary part of the healing process individually, relationally, and hopefully systemically. And today, we got to experience healing through the creative arts and through the rebelliousness of what it means to use fiction to challenge social norms in and outside of religious contexts." You can learn more about Hartfords and Tears of Eden at www.katherinespearing.com. Let's heal together!

Happy New Year! January is Spirtual Abuse Awareness month, and so we're kicking off the New Year with a couple of episodes with Katherine Spearing, host of the Uncertain Podcast and founder of the nonprofit Tears of Eden. Katherine defines spiritual abuse as "invoking a religious text or deity as a way to maintain power and control over both individuals and communities." In this episode, we describe the multiple systems in Katherine's life that practiced abusive dynamics--family of origin, churches, the Evangelical system at large. Katherine talks with us about: Stay at Home Daughters (7:00): Katherine discusses, "Women are very much just raised and indoctrinated to you will be a wife and mom, and you're going to stay in your father's home and be under your father's protection and authority. And then that will then be transferred to your husband. You're not allowed to go to college. You're not allowed to have a career. Everything you do is supporting your father's vision." Women as Property (9:00): Jeremiah responds, "The word that came to mind was property." Women function as property to be managed and transferred within these systems, and any attempt at autonomy by women is seen as a threat. Double Binds of Womanhood (13:00): Julia talks about the double bind women exist within in the context of the church: "I was thinking you experienced both infantilization as a woman, because you were essentially the property of any man and you were parentified and expected to over function. And that's one of the mind fucks that exists for women in spiritually abusive context." Arrested Development (17:00): Katherine explains, "I was a teenager when I left home at 26 and moved away from my hometown at 28. I was very responsible. I would fulfill my duties. I would show up on time. I would meet the deadlines.But in terms of just knowing myself and having healthy relationships with people and being able to just even describe how I felt about something, I couldn't even do that until I started going to therapy in my thirties." Labeling Abuse and Defining Spiritual Abuse Once More (25:00): Katherine talks about being able to label her upbringing as abuse, "I remember telling my story in that context. That was the first time that I used the word abuse publicly to talk about that. And then I think it was a few years later where I heard the word spiritual abuse and I was like, "Oh, that's it. Using God and the Bible deliberately to manipulate people and control people and twisting the Bible to make it say something. And deciding what verses you're going to use and what verse's you're not going to use and deliberately manipulating people." Finding a Voice You Never Had (29:00): Katherine discusses how healing tools typically used for victims of abuse do not always apply to folks entering deconstruction: "A big healing tool for trauma is finding your voice again, getting your voice back. Well, how do you do that when you never had one to begin with? And that is a really, really challenging thing to work with. How do you even discover who you even are when you never were allowed to have a self? Individuation (31:00): Jeremiah explains, "In the family therapy world, we refer to that process as individuation. The ability to separate from your family of origin and practice being your own person, which is hard enough of a process as it is, but then you add some of the elements of manipulation of guilt of those types of things." Phobias and Leaving Cults (39:00): Katherine talks about the process of leaving her abusive family of origin: "There's a common phenomenon that happens when someone leaves a cult, it's called phobias. And you have this feeling of God is going to strike me dead … I did something to violate God's laws or favor, and I am about to be destroyed." Silent Patriarchy (45:00): Katherine details her experience working at a Church and the lack of investment put into her as opposed to her male counterparts, because of the assumption of marriage. Patriarchy insidiously pulses through the framework of the world, "They would never say you as a woman shouldn't go to college and you should be a homemaker, but the environment lent to that for women. And I remember working for a church and my male counterpart in the youth ministry was very obviously receiving a lot of investment because he was going to be a pastor and I was not receiving the same investment and I eventually raised this. Cause I'm in seminary. This is my vocation. Where is my investment?" Tears of Eden and Healing (55:00): Katherine talks about her organization: "The watering hole idea of this is a place that people can hang out, learn some things, learn about the experience, connect with other people who've been, been through this, and then they move on to something else. If that's six months, five years, 20 years, however long they need it. It's to help people navigate those initial experiences and figure out and name what happened, knowing that they are not alone in this." Learn more about Katherine's work by visiting tearsofeden.org. We're so grateful for her influence and passion for helping folks in the early stages of deconstruction! Let's heal together!

Happy New Year! We hope that you had a safe, peaceful, and festive holiday season with family and friends! For most of us, this week will be about transitioning out of the excitement and chaos that comes with the holiday season and into the rhythms of everyday life. That transition process can be really challenging on individuals and relationships. To help us, we invited our marketing and communications extraordinaire, Maddie, to be our first guest of 2024. Maddie talks with us about: Reverting and Growth (7:00): Maddie describes, "I think it's like universally accepted that when you go back to your family, you revert to your angsty high school self." She reflects that she's asking herself questions to engage with her family more as an adult: "Going into this situation, how can I address this as it comes up, not just being from a reactive place?" Applying Growth to the Relational System (11:00): Julia discusses the importance of communication: "When I don't communicate what is wrong or what my needs are or what I would hope to be different, people don't know. And then they see a negative response, or what they perceive to be a negative response. because I haven't taken the individual growth and applied it to whatever the relationship is." Deconstruction Culture and Antagonism (17:00): Jeremiah explains, "Deconstruction culture, if we're not careful, sets older generations up in this antagonistic way … I also think that there are some people in the deconstruction community who can move into a space of avoidance and cut off the process prematurely. I think it is a really good reminder, at least for me, to be a little bit more brave, to be a little bit more courageous this holiday." Engaging in Conversations about Deconstruction with Religious Family (21:00): Maddie continues, ""If you attack someone's beliefs it feels like an attack on you. And that's true in the deconstruction world, but it's also true for people who aren't going through deconstruction. You're coming in here saying, I don't believe this. This hasn't worked for me. This is harmful. This is disgusting. Well, they're going to feel attacked, obviously. And I think having conversations like, Hey, listen. We don't agree on this, this, and this anymore. I love you. And our relationship is more important to me than crapping on everything you still believe in." Recharging (24:00): Jeremiah discusses the idea of ramps and off-ramps. "It's also the transitions. It's moving in and out of those static spaces. Introverts tend to have longer on ramps, longer transition times than extroverts do." Little Ways to Reconnect (28:00): Maddie talks about her methods of reconnecting and creating space during the holiday season: "Having support and having my updated book list." Holidays as an Adult (33:00): Maddie discusses the values of, "realizing that no one is trying to take anything from me, or take my autonomy, realizing that I'm an adult who has made adult decisions. And I can stay strong in that, even if I am with a bunch of people who disagree with me, that has no impact on myself or my beliefs or my lived experience." Managing Conflict and the Pressure Cooker (44:00): Maddie shares her theory of what traveling with someone during the holidays: "Traveling for the holidays, and just traveling in general with another person, is like a pressure cooker to really get to see how you act together, who they are, therefore how you handle things. I think you learn more in like six days and you would in six months." Relationship Anarchy (46:00): Julia highlights the importance of relationship anarchy, which is the practice and belief that different relationships meet different needs within your life and not one relationship can fulfill them all: "It really debunks the idea that romantic partners or sexual relationships are the most important. And so I'm very passionate that the close friends in my life are not less valuable than my relationship with Jeremiah or less valuable than my family of origin." Sexting in Church (50:00): Julia shares a fun way to cope with entering traumatic religious spaces this holiday season: "Just let them know that if they get a sext, you might be in some sort of traumatically religious space. But you're going to reclaim that and you're going to make that a space of sexuality."

One in six people worldwide experience infertility, according to the World Health Organization. As the holiday season focuses on the celebration of children and families, infertility creates its own holiday horror story for individuals and relationships who experience it. We're excited to have Dr. Niko Wilson, director of the Couples and Family Therapy program at William James College, join us for a special episode of Sexvangelicals. Dr. Wilson's research focuses on the qualitative experience of infertility; also, each of the three of us have been personally impacted by infertility in some capacity. Join us for conversations about: Being Seen During the Holidays (6:30): Niko explains, ""During] the holidays, there's an expectation of energy levels and expectation of engagement and positivity. And yet we can't put a pause on the things that we're actually experiencing in our personal lives. And so I think being able to be mindful of how to hold both intentions at the same time...can create room for connection and for people to feel heard and seen and supported and safe." Pressures of Distance and Proximity (12:00): Niko shares, "Proximity might equal pressure, but distance can equal isolation. They're two sides to the same coin. Each person has to tune in and communicate with their partner. And if they can do that, then they can create the environment that they want for the holidays. But both sides of the spectrum come with difficulties." Gatekeeping Grief During IVF (15:00): Jeremiah talks about his time running groups about IVF: "What commonly came up in those groups was how partners felt this obligation to shepherd [and] to gatekeep around the emotional experience, the grief that their female partners were going through. That one that came at the expense of them accessing their own emotional experiences, their own sense of grief." Benefits of Relational Satisfaction (18:00): Niko discusses infertility-related research: "We can see that when one partner is experiencing more relationship satisfaction or connection to their partner, the other partner actually feels less depression related to their infertility or less shame related to their infertility. So I think that that really speaks to the crux of how partners can support each other during the holidays." Children and the Holidays (26:00): Niko reflects on the child-centric nature of the holidays: "It can leave people feeling like if they don't have children to bring the family to have these experiences, then a lot of times people say that something feels like it's missing. Like there's something lacking, which actually compounds on the emotions of shame and sadness and guilt and loss and grief, because this is not in our control." Navigating Feeling Invisible (32:00)": Julia shares, "I've also noticed that folks want to be supportive around these really difficult issues, but they don't always know how often because they want to be sensitive to the vulnerability of it. I am grateful that on Mother's Day, typically my mom will acknowledge that I've had two pregnancy losses. And she's usually one of the only people to do so...I've sometimes wondered, "Do other people in my life not know how to ask me about this?" Wanting to be Supportive Without Knowing How (34:00): Niko encourages, "A lot of times, we tend to kind of recoil when we don't know how to engage, we get uncomfortable. We'd rather not cause more harm. So I'm just not going to say anything. So if you start with, "I want to be here for you, if you'll let me, how can I be helpful to you? What do you need from me?" Then you can create an open dialogue." Communicating and Sitting with Grief (38:00): Jeremiah describes an experience that intersected the holidays, infertility, and ensuing silence. He ponders, "I wonder what might have been different had my parents and I found some sort of a way to talk about that. Because in this conversation, we're talking mostly about the partner's situations, but I'm also finding myself sitting with the grief of that experience as an eight-year-old." Societal Acknowledgement (41:00): Julia describes, "I wish other people in my life would even just acknowledge that something might be uniquely painful for me emotionally or physically, whether or not that's part of their experience. Sadly, I have other folks in my life who have experienced infertility or pregnancy loss, and so over the holidays, we'll check in with each other. But I think it would be so powerful to have more acknowledgment from the broader society and from the people who aren't our partners or the people who aren't in our support groups, or who aren't personally experiencing." Grieving within a Positive Moment (43:00): Niko encourages folks to be "brave enough to say in the moment when you need to process the emotion that's coming up. I think a lot of times, if I'm in a positive experience or there's a fun thing happening around me, my brain says, well, no, you can't feel that right now. And yet it would probably breed even more closeness and connection if it did come up in the moment, as opposed to feeling like you have to hold it and contain it and keep it secret." Endometriosis During the Holidays (46:00): Niko describes, "The reality is that we might have a really fun date like that planned. And then I might be having a pain flare up or, and then I'm totally limited or I don't feel like engaging in anything sexual or romantic because my body is telling me a different story in the moment. And I think for me, what has happened a lot in the past is that instantly kind of triggers this feeling of shame because you feel like you don't have any control over your own body, and then you kind of get sucked into that mindset. And so I think it's especially difficult with those pressures." Emotional Aftercare and Rest During the Holidays (53:00): Niko concludes, "When we have action, then we need rest. And when you were talking about the holidays, there's so much output of energy in these holiday months. And then the season passes and we need rest. January is recovery month. It's rest month. It's processing, or it's taking space and being distracted doing something fun, or doing what you need to do to recover. It doesn't have to look like intensive therapy. It could be whatever it needs to be for those partners." A huge thanks to Niko for her wisdom and willingness to share her story. If you suffer from or have experienced pregnancy loss, infertility, and/or endometriosis, please know that you're not alone. Let's heal together!

What would holiday celebrations be without women? No really. They would not exist without women. The holiday season often represents the worst part of Christian relationships, where gender roles define behavior and eliminate collaborative dialogue in the process. Julia notes, "Even Hallmark movies join the nativity story, relying on women sacrificing--either their singleness, their autonomy, their career, or all the, for the sake of the relationship." This week, we're joined by the amazing Kelley, Kelly Anne, and Emma of the Woman Being podcast. They talk with us about: The Hallmark Agenda (3:00) Gender Norms & Christmas Movies (14:00) Bearing the Weight of the Holidays (16:00) Shame During the Holidays (19:00) Unpaid Labor (22:00) Hysteria (28:00) Expectations of Vulnerability (34:00) Burden of Decision Making (37:00) Grief During the Holidays (42:00) The Weight of Marriage (48:00)

The Christmas story starts with a teenage girl, Mary, and an angel of God. Kelley Werner, co-host of the Woman Being Podcast, explains: "She's portrayed as this passive participant in her faith. There's an edification of her. "Lord, whatever you say, I will do. So be it." She's passively impregnated by an angel, and becomes this side character in the narrative of Jesus. That angle was always impressed upon us as young women: Keeping our posture very open to whatever God or men determine is like our best path." The Christmas story, as we talk about with Kelley, Kelly Anne Carter, and Emma Williams, has significant implications on how we, and especially women, engage with our bodies. We talk more about: Implications of the Idea of Mary (11:00): Jeremiah notes how Mary's passiveness paves the way for women to be treated as weak and passive: "There's a parallel between God non consensually disseminating his sperm into Mary and Mary being like, I guess that just happened...That gets played out in the church..women are expected to be passive people that will just like go along with whatever is suggested." What About Joseph? (14:00): Emma discusses how Christians's obsession with Mary doesn't translate to Joseph, because he embodies an accepting man who believes his wife: "For men, why don't Christians also say, oh, you need to believe your wife? Why don't we say you need to blindly follow her path?" Gatekeepers of Sexuality (22:00): Kelly Anne shares how her family pressures her, not her husband, about when she will be having a child: "I'm the one that's preventing my husband from spreading his genes. Which is kind of interesting to think about because we're sitting with this together." Julia adds: "When we're talking about gatekeeping around sexuality being the role of women, the fact that people ask you about pregnancy versus your husband is super significant to that." Induced Grief (32:00): The Church is built upon pillars of shame, and the holidays, instead of a time for joy and being with loved ones, are centered on the idea that we are all bad, shameful, sinful people who must repent. Kelley frames this as induced grief: "It's built on the fact that you need to be reminded that you are the worst, and nothing you could ever do would be enough. And therefore, Jesus must come and save you, right? That is why this beautiful baby had to be born. That's, to me, an induced grief...We're talking about an added reminder of insufficiency that doesn't relate to grief in the way that I think of grief." Sensuality Around the Holidays (40:00): Julia talks about how engaging in joyous activities can be perceived as indulgence, thus feeding into the Christian idea that the holidays are for loving Jesus, not gluttonous celebration: "Because sensuality has a connotation with indulgence and indulgence has a connotation with gluttony or excess, all of those things can be demonized in Christian culture, especially for women and especially around the holidays." The Holidays and Healing (42:00): Kelly Anne describes, "To me, the holidays are a sensual experience and, to me, that is a part of the purity culture recovery. It is reclaiming the delight of the senses. And so the holidays, if you have the capacity, and if it's something that you're in the right place for, can be such a beautiful healing experience." Christian-ish and Incorporating Former Traditions (50:00): Kelley discusses how to incorporate former Christian traditions that bring joy, but adjust them to fit your current stage of life and family: "[What has] resonated most with me is this idea of being Christian-ish and the idea that I was raised within the Christian faith. It's built my morals, it's built my value system, and it's very much my culture and family history. Learning to embrace the parts of Christianity that bring me joy or feel like a part of my tradition feels comforting to me without necessarily having to fully believe everything."

While individual growth and self-discovery are vital to our healing and human evolution, we live in the context of a myriad of relationships. And the end-of-year holidays are a time of year in which many folks are engaging in a lot of different relationships at the same time or in close succession. This December, we're presenting a series called Holiday Horror Stories. The holiday season replicates the most narrow practices of family, gender, and relationships; spend three hours watching The Hallmark Channel for more information. Sometimes the advice from the psychotherapy and wellness world is helpful, and often it isn't. This series is focused on surviving through laughter. We're joined by our editor and creative genius Nicole Marinescu, who shares her experiences of: Orthodoxy and Culture Shock (22:00): While discussing how the Orthodox Church functions, Nicole shares her experience with culture shock, "When I went to my first Catholic service with my boyfriend, he stood there the whole time and he spoke in English, which shocked me. Because I genuinely thought all of these services were just Latin, or Greek, or whatever. And it was only an hour, people shook hands and they left." Romanian Orthodox Christianity is not approachable, even to its own followers, and like EMPish communities focuses on dedication to God and the Church, even if that Church does not function in an accessible lounge. Opulence (27:00): When discussing differences between EMPish Churches and Orthodoxy, Nicole points out how Orthodox Priests wear lavish gold gowns and big headpieces. Though both Church and State are intertwined in America and Romania, one tries to hide it better from the public eye: "We're opulent. So I think if you see a picture of [the Priest], then you understand politically how the church functions within these countries and how they're held in higher regard than the actual government that gives you most of the context you need." Blood in Context (32:00): During a discussion of how pig's blood is openly cooked with, Julia points out the disparities in our societal view towards different types of blood: "Jeremiah and I were recently on a menstruation podcast and I'm thinking we're obsessed with the blood of Jesus, the blood of pigs, but we can't even talk about periods using accurate language. We just have sanitary items. It makes me sad that the blood of a pig would be more important than the blood that I lose every month." Relationships During the Holidays (35:00): Jeremiah notes societal and religious pressure on spending the holidays together as a couple, when the choice to do them apart may be healthier and more beneficial for certain people. "During the holiday season, American culture commercializes what many religious contexts do--the idea of marriage, the enmeshment of relationships, the two shall become one. That's really cool, Nicole, to hear how you and your partner have said, no, you know what, we're not going to practice that." Holiday Advice (43:00): Nicole discusses her favorite tip for surviving annoying Uncles who ask silly questions during the holidays, who are looking for an argument: "The best piece of advice I heard is when he says, "What do you think about gay people?" You look him dead in the eye and you go, "Kind of weird that you asked me that, why'd you ask?" Their faces go blue." Sometimes we do not or cannot always argue, but we can make them feel uncomfortable for asking a silly question. Bad Holiday Tips (47:00): Julia notes how the pop psychology advice of "just put up boundaries" does not work in a multitude of contexts, immigrant families, EMPish families, etc. "I was having a conversation with my best friend about this, who is also a part of an immigrant family. And Jeremiah, you and I have had conversations about this ad nauseam, the super simplistic pop psychology language of setting boundaries and just cutting toxic people out drives me fucking crazy for a lot of reasons."

In the initial stages of what we typically call deconstruction, folks tend to focus heavily on meeting individual needs, self-advocacy, engaging the body in different ways, and finding new personal connections. And while all of this is fantastic, much of the resources within deconstruction communities, and popular psychology for that matter, use the language of boundary setting. Just set those boundaries. And, if we're not careful, individuation comes at the expense of our most important relationships. In today's episode, we explore how I statements aren't always helpful, how to integrate personal growth into relational growth, and ultimately how to reclaim the "We" in our relationships. Join us as we talk about: Crumbling Foundations (3:00): "Even when I got married within a fairly progressive Christian community, at least progressive compared to my growing up community, my ex-husband and I centered our lives around the church community and the social services connected to it. Then the Jenga tower started to fall. When the Jenga tower of my faith crumbled, so did the foundation of my marriage. My ex-husband and I had the choice to get divorced or create a new shared meaning. In my case, I got divorced." Individuation (6:30): Jeremiah recaps last week's episode and the process of individuation: "In the initial stages of what we typically call deconstruction, folks tend to focus heavily on meeting individual needs, self-advocacy, engaging the body in different ways, and finding new personal connections. And while all of this is fantastic, much of the resources within deconstruction communities and popular psychology for that matter use the language of boundary setting, just set those boundaries and individuation at the expense of our most important relationships." My Voice, Your Voice, and the Relationships Voice (21:00): Julia offers the metaphor of the sports team's health, which boils down to, even if one player is not doing great, the health of the team (relationship) still can be. "Think about a relationship like any team, and if there's two people in the relationship, maybe you're playing doubles volleyball. If you're in a family, maybe you do have an entire football team. And, if a coach only focused on the health of each player rather than the health of the team, the team would probably not do very well. So, what we are going to talk about in the next chunk of time is what it means to consider not just the health of each player on the team, but the health of the team in general." Relationship Anarchy (31:00): Jeremiah explains, "Relationship anarchy suggests that decisions about the function and operations of a relationship are based on the specific desires and needs of the people in that particular relationship." Sexual Menu and Relationship Anarchy (38:00): Julia shares, "This idea of relationship anarchy takes a very common intervention in sex therapy, which is the development of a sexual menu, and says you can have a menu for any other number of functions in your relationship. So if you have a shared business together, hey, you get to create a menu of what that means. If you're co-parents together, you get to determine what that means." Deconstruction and Sex (41:00): Jeremiah talks about how sex is not the singular most important element of a relationship, and can be de-centered, going against pretty much everything EMPish communities preach about marriage. "In this process of deconstruction and rediscovering what a shared meaning might be, you may decide that sex plays a less significant role in your relationship, especially during the initial season of deconstruction. Or, as we're seeing in our work, that sex plays a more significant role, but there's a desire to explore sex with other people, often with folks of the same gender." Differentiation and Religion (51:00): Jeremiah covers how differentiation is a process that requires communication: "Healthy differentiation requires us to consider three things in decision-making processes: me, you, and the relationship. And ultimately, relational health requires decisions that lead to outcomes that work for the relationship and each partner communicating in ways that align with their values." Julia adds: "We acknowledge that this is an especially difficult task for people moving out of religious spaces, because for many couples, some element of the religious world was the shared meaning. And, when you take religion out of the equation, that can be destabilizing for some couples, such as us in our first marriages."