Sexvangelicals

Happy New Year! January is Spirtual Abuse Awareness month, and so we're kicking off the New Year with a couple of episodes with Katherine Spearing (@katherinespearing), host of the Uncertain Podcast (@uncertainpodcast) and founder of the nonprofit Tears of Eden.    Katherine defines spiritual abuse as "invoking a religious text or deity as a way to maintain power and control over both individuals and communities." In this episode, we describe the multiple systems in Katherine's life that practiced abusive dynamics--family of origin, churches, the Evangelical system at large. Katherine talks with us about:  Stay at Home Daughters (7:00) Women as Property (9:00) Double Binds of Womanhood (13:00) Arrested Development (17:00) Labeling Abuse and Defining Spiritual Abuse Once More (25:00) Finding a Voice You Never Had (29:00) Individuation (31:00) Phobias and Leaving Cults (39:00) Silent Patriarchy (45:00)  Tears of Eden and Healing (55:00) Learn more about Katherine's work by visiting tearsofeden.org. We're so grateful for her influence and passion for helping folks in the early stages of deconstruction!

Happy New Year! We hope that you had a safe, peaceful, and festive holiday season with family and friends!   For most of us, this week will be about transitioning out of the excitement and chaos that comes with the holiday season and into the rhythms of everyday life. That transition process can be really challenging on individuals and relationships.   To help us, we invited our marketing and communications extraordinaire, Maddie, to be our first guest of 2024. Maddie talks with us about: Reverting and Growth (7:00) Applying Growth to the Relational System (11:00) Deconstruction Culture and Antagonism (17:00) Engaging in Conversations about Deconstruction with Religious Family (21:00) Recharging (24:00) Little Ways to Reconnect (28:00) Holidays as an Adult (33:00) Managing Conflict and the Pressure Cooker (44:00) Relationship Anarchy (46:00) Sexting in Church (50:00)  This episode is a fantastic way to kick off 2024! Check out Episode #52: Holiday Horror Stories: How to Recover from the Holiday Season, with Maddie Upson, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

One in six people worldwide experience infertility, according to the World Health Organization.    As the holiday season focuses on the celebration of children and families, infertility creates its own holiday horror story for individuals and relationships who experience it.   We're excited to have Dr. Niko Wilson, director of the Couples and Family Therapy program at William James College, join us for a special episode of Sexvangelicals.   Dr. Wilson's research focuses on the qualitative experience of infertility; also, each of the three of us have been personally impacted by infertility in some capacity. Join us for conversations about: Being Seen During the Holidays (6:30):   Pressures of Distance and Proximity (12:00):  Gatekeeping Grief During IVF (15:00) Benefits of Relational Satisfaction (18:00 Children and the Holidays (26:00) Navigating Feeling Invisible (32:00) Wanting to be Supportive Without Knowing How (34:00) Communicating and Sitting with Grief (38:00) Societal Acknowledgement (41:00) Grieving within a Positive Moment (43:00) Endometriosis During the Holidays (46:00) Emotional Aftercare and Rest During the Holidays (53:00)

What would holiday celebrations be without women?   No really. They would not exist without women. The holiday season often represents the worst part of Christian relationships, where gender roles define behavior and eliminate collaborative dialogue in the process.   Julia notes, "Even Hallmark movies join the nativity story, relying on women sacrificing--either their singleness, their autonomy, their career, or all the, for the sake of the relationship."   This week, we're joined by the amazing Kelley, Kelly Anne, and Emma of the Woman Being podcast. They talk with us about:  The Hallmark Agenda (3:00) Gender Norms & Christmas Movies (14:00) Bearing the Weight of the Holidays (16:00) Shame During the Holidays (19:00) Unpaid Labor (22:00) Hysteria (28:00) Expectations of Vulnerability (34:00) Burden of Decision Making (37:00) Grief During the Holidays (42:00) The Weight of Marriage (48:00)

The Christmas story starts with a teenage girl, Mary, and an angel of God.    Kelley Werner, co-host of the Woman Being Podcast, explains: “She's portrayed as this passive participant in her faith. There's an edification of her. "Lord, whatever you say, I will do. So be it." She's passively impregnated by an angel, and becomes this side character in the narrative of Jesus.    That angle was always impressed upon us as young women: Keeping our posture very open to whatever God or men determine is like our best path.”    The Christmas story, as we talk about with Kelley, Kelly Anne Carter, and Emma Williams, has significant implications on how we, and especially women, engage with our bodies. We talk more about: Implications of the Idea of Mary (11:00):  Jeremiah notes how Mary’s passiveness paves the way for women to be treated as weak and passive: "There's a parallel between God non consensually disseminating his sperm into Mary and Mary being like, I guess that just happened...That gets played out in the church..women are expected to be passive people that will just like go along with whatever is suggested.” What About Joseph? (14:00): Emma discusses how Christians's obsession with Mary doesn’t translate to Joseph, because he embodies an accepting man who believes his wife: “For men, why don't Christians also say, oh, you need to believe your wife? Why don't we say you need to blindly follow her path?" Gatekeepers of Sexuality (22:00): Kelly Anne shares how her family pressures her, not her husband, about when she will be having a child: “I’m the one that's preventing my husband from spreading his genes. Which is kind of interesting to think about because we're sitting with this together." Julia adds: “When we're talking about gatekeeping around sexuality being the role of women, the fact that people ask you about pregnancy versus your husband is super significant to that.”  Induced Grief (32:00): The Church is built upon pillars of shame, and the holidays, instead of a time for joy and being with loved ones, are centered on the idea that we are all bad, shameful, sinful people who must repent. Kelley frames this as induced grief: “It's built on the fact that you need to be reminded that you are the worst, and nothing you could ever do would be enough. And therefore, Jesus must come and save you, right? That is why this beautiful baby had to be born. That's, to me, an induced grief...We're talking about an added reminder of insufficiency that doesn't relate to grief in the way that I think of grief.” Sensuality Around the Holidays (40:00): Julia talks about how engaging in joyous activities can be perceived as indulgence, thus feeding into the Christian idea that the holidays are for loving Jesus, not gluttonous celebration: “Because sensuality has a connotation with indulgence and indulgence has a connotation with gluttony or excess, all of those things can be demonized in Christian culture, especially for women and especially around the holidays.”  The Holidays and Healing (42:00): Kelly Anne describes, “To me, the holidays are a sensual experience and, to me, that is a part of the purity culture recovery. It is reclaiming the delight of the senses. And so the holidays, if you have the capacity, and if it's something that you're in the right place for, can be such a beautiful healing experience.” Christian-ish and Incorporating Former Traditions (50:00): Kelley discusses how to incorporate former Christian traditions that bring joy, but adjust them to fit your current stage of life and family: “[What has] resonated most with me is this idea of being Christian-ish and the idea that I was raised within the Christian faith. It's built my morals, it's built my value system, and it's very much my culture and family history. Learning to embrace the parts of Christianity that bring me joy or feel like a part of my tradition feels comforting to me without necessarily having to fully believe everything."

While individual growth and self-discovery are vital to our healing and human evolution, we live in the context of a myriad of relationships. And the end-of-year holidays are a time of year in which many folks are engaging in a lot of different relationships at the same time or in close succession.   This December, we're presenting a series called Holiday Horror Stories. The holiday season replicates the most narrow practices of family, gender, and relationships; spend three hours watching The Hallmark Channel for more information. Sometimes the advice from the psychotherapy and wellness world is helpful, and often it isn't. This series is focused on surviving through laughter.   We're joined by our editor and creative genius Nicole Marinescu, who shares her experiences of:   Orthodoxy and Culture Shock (22:00): While discussing how the Orthodox Church functions, Nicole shares her experience with culture shock, "When I went to my first Catholic service with my boyfriend, he stood there the whole time and he spoke in English, which shocked me. Because I genuinely thought all of these services were just Latin, or Greek, or whatever. And it was only an hour, people shook hands and they left.” Romanian Orthodox Christianity is not approachable, even to its own followers, and like EMPish communities focuses on dedication to God and the Church, even if that Church does not function in an accessible lounge.    Opulence (27:00): When discussing differences between EMPish Churches and Orthodoxy, Nicole points out how Orthodox Priests wear lavish gold gowns and big headpieces. Though both Church and State are intertwined in America and Romania, one tries to hide it better from the public eye: “We're opulent. So I think if you see a picture of [the Priest], then you understand politically how the church functions within these countries and how they're held in higher regard than the actual government that gives you most of the context you need.”   Blood in Context (32:00): During a discussion of how pig’s blood is openly cooked with, Julia points out the disparities in our societal view towards different types of blood: “Jeremiah and I were recently on a menstruation podcast and I'm thinking we're obsessed with the blood of Jesus, the blood of pigs, but we can't even talk about periods using accurate language. We just have sanitary items. It makes me sad that the blood of a pig would be more important than the blood that I lose every month.”   Relationships During the Holidays (35:00): Jeremiah notes societal and religious pressure on spending the holidays together as a couple, when the choice to do them apart may be healthier and more beneficial for certain people. “During the holiday season, American culture commercializes what many religious contexts do--the idea of marriage, the enmeshment of relationships, the two shall become one. That's really cool, Nicole, to hear how you and your partner have said, no, you know what, we're not going to practice that.”    Holiday Advice (43:00): Nicole discusses her favorite tip for surviving annoying Uncles who ask silly questions during the holidays, who are looking for an argument: “The best piece of advice I heard is when he says, "What do you think about gay people?" You look him dead in the eye and you go, "Kind of weird that you asked me that, why'd you ask?" Their faces go blue.” Sometimes we do not or cannot always argue, but we can make them feel uncomfortable for asking a silly question.   Bad Holiday Tips (47:00): Julia notes how the pop psychology advice of “just put up boundaries” does not work in a multitude of contexts, immigrant families, EMPish families, etc. “I was having a conversation with my best friend about this, who is also a part of an immigrant family. And Jeremiah, you and I have had conversations about this ad nauseam, the super simplistic pop psychology language of setting boundaries and just cutting toxic people out drives me fucking crazy for a lot of reasons.”

In the initial stages of what we typically call deconstruction, folks tend to focus heavily on meeting individual needs, self-advocacy, engaging the body in different ways, and finding new personal connections.  And while all of this is fantastic, much of the resources within deconstruction communities, and popular psychology for that matter, use the language of boundary setting.  Just set those boundaries. And, if we're not careful, individuation comes at the expense of our most important relationships. In today's episode, we explore how I statements aren't always helpful, how to integrate personal growth into relational growth, and ultimately how to reclaim the "We" in our relationships. Join us as we talk about: Crumbling Foundations (3:00): “Even when I got married within a fairly progressive Christian community, at least progressive compared to my growing up community, my ex-husband and I centered our lives around the church community and the social services connected to it. Then the Jenga tower started to fall. When the Jenga tower of my faith crumbled, so did the foundation of my marriage. My ex-husband and I had the choice to get divorced or create a new shared meaning. In my case, I got divorced.”  Individuation (6:30): Jeremiah recaps last week's episode and the process of individuation: “In the initial stages of what we typically call deconstruction, folks tend to focus heavily on meeting individual needs, self-advocacy, engaging the body in different ways, and finding new personal connections.  And while all of this is fantastic, much of the resources within deconstruction communities and popular psychology for that matter use the language of boundary setting, just set those boundaries and individuation at the expense of our most important relationships.”   My Voice, Your Voice, and the Relationships Voice (21:00): Julia offers the metaphor of the sports team's health, which boils down to, even if one player is not doing great, the health of the team (relationship) still can be. “Think about a relationship like any team, and if there's two people in the relationship, maybe you're playing doubles volleyball. If you're in a family, maybe you do have an entire football team. And, if a coach only focused on the health of each player rather than the health of the team, the team would probably not do very well. So, what we are going to talk about in the next chunk of time is what it means to consider not just the health of each player on the team, but the health of the team in general.”  Relationship Anarchy (31:00): Jeremiah explains, “Relationship anarchy suggests that decisions about the function and operations of a relationship are based on the specific desires and needs of the people in that particular relationship.”  Sexual Menu and Relationship Anarchy (38:00): Julia shares, “This idea of relationship anarchy takes a very common intervention in sex therapy, which is the development of a sexual menu, and says you can have a menu for any other number of functions in your relationship. So if you have a shared business together, hey, you get to create a menu of what that means. If you’re co-parents together, you get to determine what that means.”  Deconstruction and Sex (41:00): Jeremiah talks about how sex is not the singular most important element of a relationship, and can be de-centered, going against pretty much everything EMPish communities preach about marriage. “In this process of deconstruction and rediscovering what a shared meaning might be,  you may decide that sex plays a less significant role in your relationship, especially during the initial season of deconstruction. Or, as we're seeing in our work, that sex plays a more significant role, but there's a desire to explore sex with other people, often with folks of the same gender.”  Differentiation and Religion (51:00): Jeremiah covers how differentiation is a process that requires communication: “Healthy differentiation requires us to consider three things in decision-making processes: me, you, and the relationship. And ultimately, relational health requires decisions that lead to outcomes that work for the relationship and each partner communicating in ways that align with their values.” Julia adds: “We acknowledge that this is an especially difficult task for people moving out of religious spaces, because for many couples, some element of the religious world was the shared meaning. And, when you take religion out of the equation, that can be destabilizing for some couples, such as us in our first marriages.” 

Deconstruction can be an exciting time for folks. We read new books. We explore the world and build relationships with a more diverse group of people. The world gets bigger. We see numerous amounts of options for living a happy life. However, especially for folks in long-term relationships, deconstruction can result in some really challenging relationship dynamics. As we talk about in this week’s episode of Sexvangelicals, individuation, the practice of self-discovery for the sake of learning about oneself, independent of the larger world, can result in quite a bit of relational harm, especially if you and your partner don’t have healthy ways to navigate differences. And if you grew up in the Evangelical or Pentecostal church, you likely did not learn healthy ways to navigate differences with your partner. Julia and Jeremiah talk about how self-discovery interfered with our ability to build collaborative dialogue with former partners.  And we provide ways that you can begin to talk with your partner about the new things that you’re discovering about yourself, without threatening the relationship or trying to protect the other person. Shared Meaning  (3:50): “Couples, or folks in other relational structures, create shared meaning by developing a purpose or vision for the relationship, which incorporates both individual and joint dreams and goals.” Julia then adds: “Each person in the relationship has a strong individual voice. They have their identity as I or me. The relationship has a voice too. This is the We. In healthy relationships, we can hold on to our autonomy. Without losing the strong, secure foundation of We. Of course, this is easier said than done, especially if you grew up in an Evangelical, Mormon, or Pentecostal {EMPish} community.”  How the Church Skews Rituals (8:00): “The Gottman principle of creating shared meaning through the development and use of rituals, roles, goals, and symbols might be challenging for folks from EMPish communities whose experience with these things were damaging or limiting.” Jeremiah talks about how relationship rituals and symbols may be tough for folks from EMPish communities to create due to a painful callback to the Church’s rituals. Part of the deconstruction process is taking elements the Church may have created painful associations with, such as rituals, and redefining and re-contextualizing them into meaningful and helpful things.  Christian Marriage Model (19:00): “Here's the script.  A couple meets,  courts each other with the intention of marriage, gets married, and then lives in this codependent state for the rest of their lives. Leaders hold up this enmeshed relational model as the standard of excellence. Enmeshment goes by the name of, quote, unity in these cultures.” Jeremiah offers the script used for EMPish dating which creates unhealthy codependency patterns, Julia then adds: “Within EMPish communities, many folks like me meet, date, and get married within that two to three year window before the bonding ends.” Differentiation v.s. Individuation (22:00):   Jeremiah defines: “Differentiation is the active ongoing process of defining self. Revealing self, clarifying boundaries, and managing the anxiety that comes from risking either greater intimacy or potential separation. {Ellen Bader’s Definition).” Julia defines: “Individuation is the process of individual growth and self-discovery that exists within isolation without any consideration of the myriad of relationships that exist in that person's life.”   Sacrifice Seesaw (28:00): “Think about this like a seesaw.  In, mutually engaged relationships, differentiated relationships can move like a seesaw in which sacrifice moves back and forth between partners, different seasons of life may require more sacrifice from one person than the other. And we think about not then as a vacuum, but in a greater context, Jeremiah, I like the language that you used around damn the consequences, because what I've heard in pop psychology and what I've heard from friends is exactly that damn the consequences. And while that might be an important step towards self-growth. Well, Damn, the consequences mean that there could be some very real consequences from those choices. And we have to walk into that with some awareness.” Julia discusses how sacrifice in a relationship functions like a seesaw.  Seeing the Light (36:00): “We see these two dynamics a lot in couples where one or both people are leaving behind religious ideas and communities or are beginning to deconstruct. One person will begin to quote, see the light, so to speak, perhaps they'll have conversations with their partners about it, but in having conversations about it, that injects anxiety and destabilization into the relationship, or perhaps they won't talk about it, as what happened with me and my ex, the decisions that get made about community, faith practices, and communication will become unilateral, will become secretive even.” Jeremiah talks about how when the deconstruction process begins, one partner may be moving more rapidly through that process, leaving their partner behind.  Ultimatums (41:00): “I started with a differentiated approach in which I wanted to really kindly and sensitively explain my experience to my ex-partner. When he understandably had some difficult emotions arise,  I very, very quickly... moved into that ultimatum space. I didn't give him much time to sit with it. The really challenging situation that we were in. Now, ultimately, we got divorced. And even if I had practiced a more differentiated approach, we still might have ended the relationship. My regret and what I failed to do was to practice this conversation  about other sexual relationships from a differentiated perspective. I said, I'm doing this and you can get on board or you cannot get on board. That is not a healthy relational process.” Julia talks about how offering an ultimatum instead of an ongoing conversation about boundaries and practicing a differentiated approach hurt her and her ex-partner.  Relationship 101 (48:00): Julia and Jeremiah go through four tips in today’s Relationship 101 #1: “Talk to your partner about your new interests and self-discoveries, or ask your partner about their new interests and self-discoveries.” #2: “Assess what shared interests still remain.”  #3: “Find new ways to bond with your partner.” #4: “Stay calm and patient. Don't panic.”