Sexvangelicals

SHOW NOTES Positive Perspective (4:00): "Let's very quickly review what we mean when we say the positive perspective, specifically as it relates to sexuality. As you may be, and are probably intimately aware, folks from Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal communities, EMPish communities, often struggle to have a positive perspective about sexuality when dominant messaging from these communities focuses on no." Julia starts us off by defining positive perspective in the context of EMPish communities, as most of the sexual education is focused on denying sexuality. Jeremiah adds: "Positive perspective is not necessarily about the emotional expression. It could be about emotional expression. But it's more so about supporting you in creating an openness to possibility. The possibility to have a mutually pleasurable sexual experience." A positive perspective focuses on a positive outlook rather than just positive emotions, and a positive outlook on sexuality is not fostered within EMPish circles. The Post-Marriage Script (9:00): "The enmeshed nature of Christian relationships, which we will come back to at the end of this episode. In one of the classes about sexuality, the instructor talked about the importance of abstinence during the dating and engagement period because, and I quote, this is the only time in the course of your relationship that you won't be having sex." Julia shares her experience during "Leap of Faith" in which an instructor perpetuated the EMPish myth that a healthy non-stop sex life will come about the second people get married. Jeremiah says, "So that's a perfect example of what I mean when I say that the post-marriage script not only focuses on the expectation of sex but the expectation that sex will always be present on a very regular basis." The post-marriage script essentially promises people that sex will be regular and consistent but gives them no tools to actually create a healthy sex life. Communication (14:00): "Communication skills for navigating sexuality are essential for couples to develop a sense of sexual positivity. In EMPish communities, couples do not learn about how to solve problems or negotiate differences between couples outside of prayer and these weird metaphors for sacrifice like washing feet." Jeremiah talks about how the only system in place for couples to negotiate differences is prayer, but no other systems are put in place to aid in communication. He continues: "EMPish communities also say that sex is a representation of Jesus caring for the church. Which, going back to the Joshua Butler book that we talked about a few months ago. When you're representing Jesus and the body of Christ, that puts a lot of pressure on the sexual relationship without either general communication skills or sex-specific communication skills." Light Switch (29:00): "That is actually the myth that we are debunking. So I'd like to come back to the idea of the light switch that both of us referenced. The myth from the church is that upon getting married, we transition seamlessly into marital sexual bliss. I've noticed that a similar myth in the deconstruction and sex therapy world […] So when folks leave religious communities, or maybe they are still a part of a religious community and they are unpacking and unlearning some of these negative messages, they expect a similarly fast transition for healing to occur." Julia speaks about the light switch metaphor which essentially boils down to the idea that the second people get married, their entire sexuality and sexual life just switches on. This is harmful because when that doesn't happen, people feel ashamed of themselves. The light switch metaphor also applies to deconstruction, because many folks find themselves confused that after they leave the Church that all their problems have not disappeared overnight. It is important to give ourselves patience and time to heal and grieve. Enmeshment, Individuation, and Differentiation (35:00): "I want to talk about three things. One is enmeshment. Two, individuation. Three differentiation: ENMESHMENT: "Enmeshment is a relational marker. Enmeshment is essentially a lack of healthy boundaries. One way this looks is that a person's sexuality belongs to the community or a spouse. A person's not allowed to make individual choices. They must conform to the dictates of the community. And if you are a woman, you must submit to male authority." Jeremiah defines our first term, which is key to understanding EMPish relationships. The relationship is not private, it is held to the standards of a group and thus has no room for individuality and choice. INDIVIDUATION "In the early stages of deconstruction, they sometimes overcompensate when moving into individuation. And individuation is a process of doing things for yourself, regardless of what other people might say." Jeremiah notes that as people move through their deconstruction journey they may go too hard into individuation, which then erases the needs of their partner and relationship. DIFFERENTIATION: "Differentiation is a process of doing things for yourself in a relationship with other people. This means that you have to take into account that your partner may want to do something completely different. Or their style or personality traits means that the way that they do the thing you want to do is different from the way that you want." Jeremiah closes out by defining differentiation, which Julia and Jeremiah use examples to contextualize further. Relationship 101 (51:00): "Relationship 101 today is in two parts, and both of these will sound very basic and very simple. In some ways, they are basic in the sense of being foundational, but not so simple in practice. So number one is talking about a sexual experience before, during, and after. And number two is paying attention to differences." Julia lays out foundational relationship 101 for today. One of the key elements is talking about and engaging with sexuality before, during, and after. Sex does not begin with foreplay, a sexual experience can begin hours before with sexting or flirting with your partner, which can make for a more extended and meaningful experience.

We're back from our month off hiking the Alpe Adria in Austria, Slovenia, and Italy. And we pick up today where we left off, talking about the Sound Marital House model from couples therapy gurus John and Julie Gottman. For a friendly reminder, the first three levels of the Sound Marital house are curiosity, appreciation, and leaning toward your partner. And this week, Julia and Jeremiah talk about the fourth value: the positive perspective, including: Defining Terms (10:00): "For the sake of today, we're going to say that being positive about sexuality in a partnership means being positive about the existence of eroticism in a relationship, which to be clear is not the same as sex. […] To simplify it for today, eroticism is ultimately about the presence of sexual desire, whether or not you consummate that sexuality. So we'll be focusing on positivity about the presence of sexual desire, and since this is a relationship podcast, We'll talk about the presence of sexual desire within a partnership or whatever other relational structure you have." Julia defines positive perspective, eroticism, and sexuality in terms of today's episode. Defining clear terms is an important value for Sexvangelicals, and it is important to have a clear understanding of how we will be using these terms to navigate our topic. Hierarchy (17:00): "The gatekeeping around marriage creates an exclusionary social hierarchy in which you've got married Christian folks at the top, accessing all their God-given sexual rights. And unmarried Christian folks, one rung below, who are either dating or pursuing marriage in some sort of explicit way. Eventually, those folks may have full access to the post-marriage sex script. But until marriage, they are inherently limited. Unmarried folks who by choice or not by choice will not ever get married are the next level lower. They are not able to access the joy of sexuality in marriage. […] And all of this is important in setting up the episode today because we are highlighting that dichotomy of the pre-marriage sexual script and the post-marriage sexual script. And I suppose if we have this hierarchy... The secular folks are just outside of this system because they refuse to participate because they're relishing in their heathen ways. Like us. Us unmarried folks who are still having sex." Julia highlights the hierarchy within EMPish communities based on marriage status. EMPish Churches only have two scripts, one for those pre and post-marriage, creating a system where only those two realities exist. This is incredibly damaging as all your relationships in the "pre" sphere exist as a march to the wedding, as Julia will go on to share today. Preserving Purity (19:00): "So due to the gatekeeping around marriage, the dichotomy between the pre-marriage and post-marriage scripts inherently function to protect the system of social and sexual hierarchy that we just described […] So, if the pre-marriage script focuses on preserving the purity of your sexuality until you can access the post marriage script, folks hoping to get married face some, some unique sexual challenges." Jeremiah talks about how the pre-marriage script is incredibly limited in fundamentalist communities and that the only information people hoping to get married receive is that they will unlock all these secrets about sex when they're already married. This causes a lot of pain and grief, because the reality is without proper sex education and knowledge around sex, most of people confronted with the post-marriage script do not know what to do. He also says: "Depending on the level of fundamentalism in a person's community, the rules limiting access to sexuality may vary in strictness while still serving to protect sexual purity." This statement encapsulates the issue at hand because the rules around sexuality in fundamentalist communities are structured around preserving purity, however, once you are married, your "purity" goes away. It's All About Sex (28:00): "Because I wanted to have sex. Even at the time, I had some shame around that because I knew, according to the church, that I as a woman was not supposed to have those sexual desires. Interestingly, by eradicating any meaningful sexual expression, the church's teachings actually make dating relationships all about sex." Julia speaks about how by repressing any means of sexual expression, the church inadvertently makes dating all about sex. A lot of young couples instead of enjoying their time dating, spend time focusing on "not giving in to sin." This puts sex on a pedestal, which in turn makes people want it more. Shame and Grief (40:00): "The reason that this story is so essential to this episode is that you met someone that you liked, you briefly dated, you enjoyed some sexual experiences, which would be completely developmentally appropriate for a 19-year-old who's working during the summer months while in college, but instead of enjoying it, instead of learning about yourself and exploring relational and sexual values, you obsessed over your sin." Jeremiah says in response to Julia's story. He talks about how instead of being able to relax into developmentally appropriate desires she had to spend her entire relationship worrying about sinning. Julia then adds: "Yes. I'm sad for my 19-year-old self, and I know that this story is not unique. I can't tell you how many times I've supported clients in grieving what they lost due to sexual shame. And I'm not specifically grieving the relationship itself, I'm grieving that I lost the opportunity to get to know myself and I'm grieving how much pleasure and fun not just sexual pleasure and fun that the shame stole from you." She shares the grief of not being able to have those "normal" experiences because of the fundamentalist community she was in. EMPish communities have a focus on teaching people shame, not on teaching people about sexuality, and shame dictates the pre-marriage script. Lack of Eroticism (49:00): "Sex was finally allowed. And that actually killed a big part of the eroticism for me and for many people. The massive barriers to sexuality created by purity culture actually make sex pretty sexy. But folks like me and like so many others didn't know how to create and build eroticism on their own without those barriers. Which often causes sex to be pretty disappointing after the barriers of purity culture are no longer present. […] Second, sexuality was now not only allowed, it was expected. Which I know you'll discuss more in your episode, Jeremiah, and that generated a lot of sexual pressure for me. This thing, intercourse, was expected, but I didn't have relational or individual literacy about sexuality or tools to co-create a pleasurable experience." Julia shares how after the barriers to entry were removed, there was no eroticism present nor was there a way for her to engage in sexuality due to the lack of resources and knowledge. EMPish communities foster an environment where people are forbidden to have sexual desires and thoughts up until their wedding night, and they are just expected to know right after they say "I Do." Beginning the Conversation Around Neutrality (1:04:00): "Neutrality means that you do not actively want sex. And you are open to go full circle to the possibility of a sexual experience. So, I learned that you don't have to wait until you really want to have sex to have a great sexual experience. So, if the responsive desire is a big part of the sexual template for many individuals, many couples, or throuples or whatever your group, then we've got to actually figure out what to do with that. Simply knowing that responsive desire is important for folks or the dominant template for folks isn't enough. And in future episodes, we're going to be talking about what does it mean to take that neutrality. Take that responsive desire and build something that hopefully is really fun and pleasurable." Julia explains what neutrality and responsive desire are, a topic that will be explored more in the coming months. It is important to highlight in this Relationship 101 that sexual desire looks different for everyone and to not hold yourself to the same standard as everyone else, because it looks different for everyone as Jeremiah notes: "And one of the things that we'll come across when we do this, just to skip ahead a little bit, is the idea of conflict. Yes. Because... How you access sexuality, Julia, is going to be different from how I access sexuality. And we've got to figure out how to navigate those differences and to create something that works for both of us. That both of us really enjoy. And conflict doesn't have to be scary, it doesn't have to be fighting, anything like that. Even though some emotions will probably come up for folks, even for you and I, as we navigate this."

After our month-long foray into the disturbing literature from the Evangelical Christian publishing industry, we continue our new series The Sex Ed We Wish We Had. Last month, we interviewed Doug Braun-Harvey, who describes the six sexual health principles that we and many other sexual health providers use as their rubric for co-creating healthy sexual encounters. We begin with a two-part series on consent, which, to quote the Harvey Institute (8:40): "Consent means voluntary cooperation communicates permission to try and reach sexual satisfaction and intimacy with willing partners. Consent transforms the act of sex from invasion, intrusion, or violation into an act of transformation. Establishing consent throughout each step of a sexual interaction provides each sexual partner space for sexual safety and pleasure that's consistent with their sexual desire." We also address: Consent in Church and the Country (9:50): "Consent in our country has been about folks, primarily men, getting as far as they can sexually while escaping rape allegations or charges. Similar to the church, American culture has given women the responsibility of gatekeeping men's sexuality. While keeping themselves safe from violence," Jeremiah says. Consent is a tool used by men to absolve themselves from any hurt or crime they may have committed. It is not seen as something that should be intrinsically tied to sex. Julia then makes the connection that, "so often the Christian Church establishes themselves as countercultural. However, in terms of sexuality, the status of so many sexual health principles are quite similar. Within and outside of church walls, we have long taught women best practices for avoiding assault." The conversation around consent usually centers around the metaphor of wearing a bulletproof vest instead of just banning guns. The Process of Affirmative Consent (11:55): "Learn that consent is the proactive negotiation of pleasure. To catch onto this concept, a religious university in Ohio was the first to develop a model for affirmative consent." Julia notes as we give props to a Christian institution on this podcast for probably the first time. They then list the seven principles of affirmative consent: Explicitness. A yes must be expressed verbally. Voluntariness. The yes must be given voluntarily without pressure or coercion. Ability to consent. Intoxicated people, people under a certain age are unable to give consent. A shift of responsibility. They mean the person who initiates the sexual act has the responsibility to obtain the consent of all participants in non-coercive ways. Freedom from presumption. Consent must be obtained repeatedly for each new sexual act. Informedness. All participants must know what consent is being given for, in particular, when we think about the role of the receiver, what would it be like to have a sexual experience where the initiator says, hey, this is what I want to kind of work through. Revocability. A previously given consent can be withdrawn at any time. These seven principles are without nuance, which we will dive into next, but still are a strong framework and guide to affirmative consent. As well as, great starting points and rules for someone to follow. The Simplifying of Consent (15:40): "Consent is actually very complicated. Even in more progressive circles, I've noticed this impulse to try and make consent as simple as possible. We actually have so many different contextual factors to take into account with each sexual scenario. With each of the seven principles, we can't actually package consent into a simple formula." Julia adds to the conversation about affirmative consent, saying that even though this is a great framework, consent cannot be distilled into a simple idea. It is okay that consent is nuanced and complicated, and that is what they are exploring today. Heteronormativity (21:00): "Heteronormativity relies on narratives about how men and women enact sexuality differently inside the church. As we talked about in reading the Butler series and in the seven deadly sexual sins according to the church, but also outside of the church, we have the false narrative that men are inherently more sexual and that women have the duty to perform sexuality according to the socialized norms of what men crave sexual," Jeremiah says. We explore the effects of heteronormativity throughout different episodes, but pertaining to the idea of consent, this heteronormative dynamic affects how consent is given and received. Many women in heterosexual relationships feel the need to say yes, and many men feel the need to initiate sex, even if they do not want to have sex. Sex Therapist Training and Consent (31): Jeremiah talks about his experience how, in one of his sex therapy training classes, he learned what consent actually looked like, and also how his heterosexual relationship fit into a larger context within society. "I was also so stuck in the emotional cycle of protecting my ex at the time, that I didn't have the wherewithal to realize the larger societal context for our relational interaction. But in this particular class, I internalized this." He then talks about his experience unpacking much of the ingrained ideology about martial consent within the context of Christianity. Christianity and Consent (39): "The most heartbreaking part is that we were both trying hard to be the best partners that we could be, and the patterns that developed from our best efforts, which were modeled to us by Christian culture and Christian leaders were strong contributors to our divorce and set the stage for both of us to have years of non-consensual sexual experiences," Julia talks about how Christianity establishes that consent happens only once at the altar, and never again. This has negative repercussions as sex does not equal an enjoyable and safe experience for the people involved, but quite the opposite. These are hard conversations to have, and next week, we'll talk more about Julia's experience navigating sexuality and consent in her marriage, before concluding with some Relationship 101. Let's heal together!

16 years ago, Linda Kay Klein embarked on a storytelling journey that would change her life (and the lives of many others). In her 2018 book Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I Broke Free, Linda captures the experiences of hundreds of women, herself included, who grew up within and confronted the consequences of the Evangelical purity culture movement in the 90s and early 2000s. Through Pure and her nonprofit, Break Free Together, Linda has created numerous spaces to bring folks together to share their stories about repression, bravery, and ultimately freedom. We are thrilled to have her as a podcast guest! Freedom comes in expected and unexpected ways. For instance, in this episode, learn how shrimp tails and boxes drawn on a dorm room wall were formative experiences that helped Linda access the bravery to tell the story that she was so afraid to share. "The great thing about doing something that you're really, really afraid of is the feeling when you survive." Linda, Jeremiah, and Julia also discuss: What makes purity culture particularly appealing and damaging to adolescents (10:00): At a time in which youth are particularly vulnerable, leaders within the purity culture movement combine language of belonging and intense emotionality to create a culture of conformity. Linda describes, "When I left Evangelicalism, I had to contend with how damaging it was. I went in with a pretty good sense of myself and the world." Sadly, the confines of purity culture had long-lasting, devastating consequences. The grief and anger that accompanied the writing process (21:30): Initially, Linda was hopeful when she met other women who could relate to her story. "But then, when the numbers started to add up, and it became clear that this was a lot of people who are hurting, that became something to grieve over time." Additionally, the systemic coverup of overt and covert sexual abuse in churches and the ensuing silencing of survivors showed that the people who were supposed to protect a generation of women had failed to keep them safe. The confusion in finding your freedom (30:00): As a sexual health coach, Linda's clients often want to dive right into "fixing" sexual problems. Linda wisely takes a step back and asks people to explore simpler decisions. After all, purity culture's rigid binary system increases the anxiety around the decision-making process. Identifying what you want sexually is really challenging when you're not even sure how to decide what you want for dinner. What it's like to have relationships with people who are "worried" about you (42:00): When a person leaves Evangelicalism, those within the community tend to worry about your wellbeing, and even your salvation. Linda describes her experiences of navigating this, and Jeremiah and Julia introduce a potential support group: Moms of Millenials Straying from the Church. How motherhood impacts sexuality (58:00): Linda describes how she talks about sexuality with her 19-year-old stepdaughter differently than she experienced in the church, and how parenting a newborn can introduce a new type of intimacy within the couple and family relationships. Wherever you are in your journey toward sexual freedom, we hope that you can find comfort and healing in the power of telling and sharing stories. Let's heal together!

Tia Levings is a writer and content creator whose work explores the female narrative in patriarchal spaces. A survivor of church-sanctioned domestic violence, Tia shares the realities of Christian Fundamentalism, and sheds light on the strategic influence high control religion has on our society and headlines today. Her memoir releases in 2024 with St. Martin's Press and you can find her videos on Instagram and Tiktok. We are thrilled to have Tia share her experience of surviving and escaping a religious fundamentalist community, discovering healing and self-exploration, and using her story to help others find their own versions of healing. In this episode, Tia talks with us about: Religious fundamentalism (6:00). Tia defines fundamentalism as "putting ideals over people. Nothing is more important than the idea. Human-to-human connection gets shunned because there's danger about connecting around a human need." For three decades, Tia's cultural context was rooted in "a base human fear, and someone else in a position of power who presents an attractive solution. These folks can take the things that mean the most to me to exploit and serve their purposes. When it doesn't work out, the person gets blamed, not the system. They never want to admit that their system may not be working." Women in fundamentalism (12:00): Tia reminds us that "Christianity teaches at its heart that a young girl [Mary] was impregnated by a deity and became a vessel. She is objectified and used for a purpose." This young woman gets very little character development, despite her importance, and Tia draws upon the parallel process to describe the role of women in these systems: "I had one job—satisfy my husband and bear babies. A woman's brain never factors in. What's necessary is her hands, service, womb, and vagina." Messages around sexuality (24:00): Tia describes purity culture as such: "My job as a Christian girl was to stay pure and refine my Christian sweetness. No touch, no hand holding, no relationship, no crushes because you don't want to hold someone else's spouse's hands. You're pure. You're sweet. He [because same-sex marriages are unacceptable in conservative Christianity] decides that he wants you and says that he's sent from God. That's how engagement worked." Tia was married by 19 and had three children by the age of 23 in the name of being a "good Christian girl". Deconstruction (43:00): Tia's marriage and community gradually became more conservative and, in her case, extremely dangerous, but Tia found online platforms, specifically blogging, as her first system for practicing deconstruction. She says, "The virtual spaces gave me a space to exist. I wasn't allowed to be me in the real world, but online, I had control and agency on how to present myself. The relationships with these people were folks who hid me when I was on the run. There's power when you have a space to exist and grow." The dangers of change (58:00): When one person in a system begins to change, typically, the other members of that system will do whatever they can to keep said person stuck in their known, familiar roles. Tia compares her change experience with war, an especially potent metaphor given the fact that conservative Christianity is invested in war. She explains, "Your life is preparing for the war so you can usher in the second coming in Christ and bring the rapture. You're either going to get raptured in the beginning, middle, or all the way through, which is the big Armageddon. This becomes self fulfilling prophecies because they're creating the end times in the ways they're behaving." Tia's change resulted in her being excommunicated from her religious community (she's in good company, having her life threatened, and having to go into hiding. Knowing yourself and the nervous system acclimation (1:23:00): Healing involves learning and listening to the type of person that you are based on your own traits and needs, rather than the type of person society tells you to be. In Tia's case, this involved reengaging with her high sense of sensitivity, which involves creating buffers for transitioning in and out of certain experiences. We discuss differentiation, and Tia says, "you'll know you're in a differentiated relationship when someone will take care of you whenever you start taking care of yourself." Tia concludes, "I had been waiting for rescue my whole life. Someday my prince will come. Someday God will save me. When it came down to it, I had to get us out of there. I'm the heroine of my own story." The healing process from navigating and leaving religious fundamentalism is extremely daunting, and we hope that Tia's story provides courage, imagination, and resilience for those who are in similar contexts. We heal best when we heal together!

This week we highlight a few of the reasons we began Sexvangelicals and what is to come in the following weeks. We will be doing a Summer Rewatch Series highlighting three of our favorite episodes, which include new content at the beginning of each episode. It is important to reflect and realize how we have grown and evolved and we want to share that with you. In this mini-episode (or trailer) we reflect on some of the reasons we started this podcast to begin with and what episodes we will be covering in the next month! Relationships and Deconstruction (6:00): "Our focus within the sexuality and deconstruction sphere is on the relationships that have survived a church exit or the relationships that are forming for the first time without the rigid confines of the dictates of purity culture." Jeremiah talks about their work within the sex and deconstruction sphere is centered around what happens to relationships after you leave the Church and a big portion of this podcast is dedicated to exploring that question from multiple angles. Julia adds: "Building flourishing partnerships and sexual relationships after leaving an Evangelical Mormon or Pentecostal community, or as Jeremiah has coined, EMPish religious structures are uniquely hard work." These organizations make it so that it is hard to leave and just jump into fulfilling relationships, and friendships, and just have a healthy sex life in general. Deconstructing the 'Right Way' (6:30): "I've noticed that folks leaving EMPish communities put a lot of pressure on themselves to deconstruct the quote "right way" and transition smoothly to a whole new way of engaging themselves in the world." Jeremiah notes this idea that there is only one way to deconstruct and that it is linear, clean, and simple. None of that is true and that is another motivation for this podcast, to highlight different deconstruction processes, to show that it is inherently messy in nature and that's not a bad thing. Positive Sex Ed (7:30): Engaging in positive and pleasurable sexuality takes time to build and develop, especially if you received sex-negative messages for years and maybe even decades of your life. Something that we talk about in our interview with Amber Wood several months ago. What happens when you haven't received good relational and sexual health education until sometime in your adulthood? So you might be for me, 27 - 30. Operating in some ways with the sexual resources of a teenager. So that's part of what I mean when I say, oh, I was 28, but perhaps engaging with sexuality for the first time." Julia shares how because of the system under which she grew up she was working under the sexual resources of a teenager as an adult when she left the Church. It is essential to give ourselves space and to reflect on the resources we have been given and not shame ourselves for not being "ahead" because there is no such thing, there is only our journey, our pace, and our lives.

We are continuing our summer series called Partnership Building, where we discuss how sexual health is relational health, and relational health is sexual health. We're talking about seven principles of healthy relationships, according to relationship experts John and Julie Gottman. Last week, Luke and Lauren from the amazing podcast Filled to Flourish talked with us about the ways that Purity Culture encourage turning toward God, and as a result, away from oneself and one's partner. This week, they discuss the ways that they learned to turn toward each other, and the ways that protected the relationship as larger systems began to turn against them. This is a really sad, difficult episode, but also a celebration of their relationship and a source of encouragement to others who may be actively experiencing something similar. We discuss: Unconditional Positive Regard (9:00): Lauren describes, "Gottman uses this idea of unconditional positive regard. We saw each other in the best light and we knew we were doing the best we could amidst all the dysfunction unhealed trauma we were still swimming in. We had this regard for one another, and that helped us to weave this beautiful tapestry versus imploding." Messy Work (17:00): Jeremiah sets realistic expectations around the work of deconstruction and relational healing: "Problems tend to begin three to four years before the beginning of couples therapy Shifting and development of new interaction patterns takes a lot of time. This isn't just something that happens overnight. You walk out of the church. You leave the church, whew, thank god that's over. And then I can live and skip into a new life. There's a lot of work that happens after that and it sounds like y'all did a lot of coming back to each other, getting messy, coming back to each other, getting messy, coming back to each other. I think that that's really important to name that that's a realistic part of the process." Turning Toward Each Other (25:00 - 29:00): There are a few horror stories throughout the episode, including the involvement of a missionary organization criticizing Luke and Lauren for not enacting traditional gender roles. Luke summarizes, "Where I think the starting of us turning towards each other and not feeling safe and saying like, babe, I'm safe with you, but I'm not sure we're safe here." He notes that this rejection led them to turn towards each other because the Church labeled their relationship as "bad," and when they both knew that was not the reality, they chose to be with each other and on each other sides, instead of playing the blame game. White Saviorism (35:00): We have a side conversation about transracial adoption—Jeremiah is a transracial adoptee, and Luke and Lauren have adopted children of color. The elections of 2016 and 2020 enabled Lauren and Luke to speak out against racism and sexism, which the Church did not like. Lauren explains, "So it wasn't so much I started questioning gender roles. But what happened was my outspokenness prior to this was more of a value to a lot of folks, family included, because it was their agenda and their narrative. So I think this is the very confusing thing about outspoken women in the church." Luke and Lauren chose to turn towards each other because the Church and their families did not agree with their ideas. There is no Hate like Christian Love (40:00): Luke describes, "I was healing and so I started getting more of a voice and speaking out and having more conversations and being more educated. And every person that we had a conversation, invited a conversation. It became hostile, angry, and abusive. We got stuck in America for Covid. So 2020, we were in America and we ended up losing 25% of our support because we were speaking against racism and our church told us to stop talking about it or they were gonna stop supporting us 'cause we were missionaries and we represented them and they didn't agree with us. […] We didn't feel welcomed at the church anymore." This encapsulates the Church perfectly: We love you until you don't agree with us. Lauren expands, "We were no longer the tool that we once were. And as soon as you're not a tool in a system of power that only uses people, you are invaluable to them. Your inherent dignity and worth as a human is not a consideration. It's irrelevant and everyone thinks that they are exempt from that." When the Church deems you not useful you no longer have a community or support or anything. They push people out who have their own thoughts and ideas. Again, a huge thanks to Luke and Lauren for their vulnerability and wisdom. Please check out their business, Flourish Therapy. Let's heal together!

We are continuing our summer series called Partnership Building, where we discuss how sexual health is relational health, and relational health is sexual health. We're talking about seven principles of healthy relationships, according to relationship experts John and Julie Gottman. In the first four episodes of this series, we've discussed two foundations of healthy relationships: curiosity and admiration/appreciation. In the next two episodes, we'll talk about the third principle of healthy relationships (according to the Gottman's): turning toward each other. And we have amazing guests, Luke and Lauren Smallcomb from the brilliant podcast Filled to Flourish. Luke and Lauren are the founders of Flourish Therapy. They live in Chiang Mai, Thailand with their kids and 3 cuddly dogs. Luke and Lauren talk with us about: An Unquestioned System (6:00) The Unforgivable Sin (14:00) Eroticism (20:00) Lack of Freedom (25:00) Falling Back on Gender Roles (34:00) Good and Bad (49:00) Luke and Lauren will talk more with us next week about how to turn toward each other when your systems of origin begin to turn away from you. You won't want to miss it!

We are continuing our series on Partnership building by comparing the messaging from a classic relationship book in Evangelical/Mormon/Pentecostal (EMPish) circles, Love and Respect, by Emerson Eggerichs, alongside the work of couples researchers John and Julie Gottman, and their principle of nurturing fondness and admiration. As we talked about last week, practicing this principle can be challenging when you've grown up learning that admiration and fondness exist along problematic gendered norms of the Love and Respect model. Julia explains, "Admiration roughly translates to respect, which women show through deference to male authority and obligatory sex based on socially conditioned standards for male pleasure, love roughly translates to affection and emotional intimacy. Which is good, but in manifestation, often coddles women dismissing their intelligence and erasing their sexuality. All under the guise of love." We also talk about Earning Respect (12:50) God Made You This Way (18:00 / 26:00) Gendered Lines (28:40) Surviving a Gendered World (35:24) Power Dynamics (53:00) For those of you who have read Love and Respect, what are some parts of the book that stood out to you? What are you trying to unlearn. For those of you who haven't read Love and Respect, we highly encourage you not to. Let's heal together!

This summer, we're talking about seven principles of healthy relationships, according to relationship experts John and Julie Gottman. In the last two weeks, we've discussed the foundation of healthy relationships: curiosity. And in the next two episodes, we're talking about the practices of admiration and appreciation. Be curious. Be positive. Sounds simple enough. Except EMPish (Evangelical, Mormon, and Pentecostal) communities identify the success of the relationship not based on the ways that people solve problems together. Successful marriages happen when men and women effectively play the gender roles ascribed to them. And no Christian resource describes this better than Emerson Eggerichs' Love and Respect: The Love She Most Desires, The Respect He Desperately Needs. In this episode, we compare the Eggerichs' and Gottman's processes for exploring admiration and appreciation: Parental Models (7:00): "We talked in church spaces and school spaces about being kind and grateful and positive, but I didn't see a lot of it modeled." Young children model after their parents, and when the models do not admire each other, we tend to mirror that in our own relationships. This episode is about initially breaking that pattern. Jesus' Admiration (10:00): "I do have a deep hole within myself that the church told me only Jesus can fill, but perhaps the church created that hole with constant legalistic scrutiny for over two decades of my life, and now I am just constantly in need of someone telling me that I'm worthwhile and valuable. That is for my own therapy." Julia shares how the Church created this idea that the only person that can fill your heart is Jesus. This does not actually teach anyone how to do relationships, and, when coupled with the anxiety that you constantly have to ask Jesus and an erratic God into your heart, this creates a compulsive need for validation from others rooted in a fear of never being good enough. Defaulting onto Gender Norms (11:00): Jeremiah shares, "If someone doesn't overtly teach you how to do something in a relationship, the easiest thing to do is to fall back on gender expectations. For me as a man, the most important gendered message was that men are leaders. Assume that you're gonna be in charge and that people want you to be in charge." When admiration for our partners is not taught or modeled, people can default onto gender norms as a way to show their appreciation. Appreciation then becomes about performing the gender role as opposed to celebrating the holistic person and uniqueness of the relationship. What Does Respect Actually Mean? (27:00): Julia reflects, "I remember reading that sex was one of, if not the primary way, that men feel respected. The book also reinforced that I should be well groomed, made up, and lingerie wearing for when my husband comes home from work. Because of course I'm not working and he just needs sex for his own gratification." Jeremiah responds, "Respect communicates a power hierarchy, and adhering to the power hierarchy means men are at the top." The idea that women are "depriving" men of sex is a toxic idea that feeds into non-consent and un-enjoyable sex and relationships. When sex is viewed as a thing to be given and taken, it stops existing as a thing occurring between consenting people, but instead as a process of conquering. We conclude the episode with Relationship 101, where Jeremiah states, "For you and I, practicing the Gottman value of nurturing fondness and admiration requires us to develop new interaction patterns that move away from gendered scripts of love and respect, and into collaborative and non-gendered dynamics based on admiration and fondness." The Gottman's labeled these six practices, the 6 magic hours, and Julia and Jeremiah offer advice on how to incorporate these into everyday life: 1. Partings. The Gottman suggests learning one thing that is happening in your partner's life before they leave for the workday or whatever else they may be doing. 2. Reunions. The Gottman suggests at least 20 minutes at the end of the day for a connection point that is purely for the sake of reestablishing intimacy and closeness. Julia offers, "For those of you who may be less inclined to physical touch, or need some other forms of connection before moving into a physical space. A reunion could include going out for ice cream, a short walk, or even just a curious conversation in which you take an active interest in your partner's day. Questions beyond "How was your day?" 3. Admiration and appreciation. Be explicit about what you love and value about your partner. Jeremiah shares how because of the context in which he grew up he sets reminders on his phone to text Julia appreciation and admiration, which can be helpful for those who also grew up in similar contexts. 4. Physical Touch. The Gottman suggests physical affection every day, especially before going to bed to be clear. This is not necessarily sexual affection. There will be episodes in the future tackling the topic for people who may not be comfortable with physical touch. 5. Date Night. The Gottman's encourage a two hour date night, once a week, the setting. "So do you go to a restaurant? Do you go out for a movie? The setting is less important than the process for communication and exploring deeper things about the other person." Julia says, and then adds that though this may not be attainable weekly for many people, even monthly or bi-monthly is great, and everyone is just doing the best they can. 6. State of the Union meeting. Jeremiah explains, "Gottman encourages a one hour business meeting each week to discuss practical and logistical aspects of your relationship, such as finances. Trips, meal planning, childcare, chores, et cetera." The state of the union keeps the administrative part of the relationship out of the romantic part of the relationship. Healthy relationships include all six of these items; this week, focus on developing two of these in your relationship with your partner. And then, for the next month, build one item a week into your relationship building. Let's heal together!