“And then you're like, actually, I can't know what it's like to be a bat—again, the problem of other minds, right? There's this fundamental divide between a human mind and a bat, but at least a bat's a mammal. What is it like to be an AI? I have no idea. So I think [mind perception] could make us less sympathetic to them in some sense because it's—I don't know, they're a circuit board, there are these algorithms, and so who knows? I can subjugate them now under the heel of human desire because they're not like me.”Kurt GrayWhat is mind perception? What do we know about mind perception of AI/robots? Why do people like to use AI for some decisions but not moral decisions? Why would people rather give up hundreds of hospital beds than let AI make moral decisions?Kurt Gray is a Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he directs the Deepest Beliefs Lab and the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding. He studies morality, politics, religion, perceptions of AI, and how best to bridge divides.Topics discussed in the episode:Introduction (0:00)How did a geophysicist come to be doing social psychology? (0:51)What do the Deepest Beliefs Lab and the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding do? (3:11)What is mind perception? (4:45)What is a mind? (7:45)Agency vs experience, or thinking vs feeling (9:40)Why do people see moral exemplars as being insensitive to pain? (10:45)How will people perceive minds in robots/AI? (18:50)Perspective taking as a tool to reduce substratism towards AI (29:30)Why don’t people like using AI to make moral decisions? (32:25)What would be the moral status of AI if they are not sentient? (38:00)The presence of robots can make people seem more similar (44:10)What can we expect about discrimination towards digital minds in the future? (48:30)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

Dr. Kurt Gray, a psychology professor at UNC and author of "Outraged," explores the roots of societal divisions and the psychology behind moral indignation. He discusses how perceptions of harm and victimhood shape our moral judgments, emphasizing the role of group loyalty in navigating offense. The conversation highlights the power of personal narratives in fostering understanding between differing political perspectives. Gray offers insights into hope and humility as essential tools for bridging divides and promoting empathy in a polarized world.

Ethan Gilsdorf, a writer and performer, shares how Dungeons & Dragons helped him navigate life’s hurdles and find empowerment. David Fajgenbaum, a physician and Castleman disease advocate, discusses his battle with illness and the transformative power of storytelling in healing. Kurt Gray, a psychology professor, delves into the hero's journey as a framework for personal growth, encouraging listeners to reshape their narratives. Together, they explore how embracing life's challenges can create meaning and resilience through our own heroic tales.