740: How to Lead Organizational Change, with Michael Bungay Stanier

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Jun 30, 2025

Michael Bungay Stanier, best-selling author and host of Change Signal, shares vital insights on leading organizational change. He emphasizes that change can be messy and advocates for understanding the emotional realities involved. Michael discusses the importance of engaging team members rather than imposing compliance, suggesting that strategy should be a living conversation filled with experimentation. Drawing inspiration from Emily Dickinson, he highlights the importance of gradual truth-telling in the process of transformation.

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INSIGHT

Leadership Answers Change's Messiness

Change is fundamentally complex and inherently messy to manage and lead effectively.
Leadership, not management, is essential for successfully navigating change.

ADVICE

Audit Before Removing Fences

Before initiating change, thoroughly audit the current reality and understand existing initiatives.
Don't leap into action without understanding why systems or rules exist where they do.

ANECDOTE

Policy Change Hurt Relationships

Dave shared a story of quickly fixing a policy violation without understanding why exceptions existed.
This approach harmed relationships and required time to repair, illustrating rushed change pitfalls.

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Michael Bungay Stanier: Change Signal

Michael Bungay Stanier is best known for The Coaching Habit, the best-selling coaching book of the century and recognized as a classic. He was a Rhodes Scholar, and was recently awarded the coaching prize by Thinkers50. He’s now the host of the new Change Signal podcast.

If you’re doing change right, it’s going to be messy. In this conversation, Michael Bungay Stanier returns to show us where to start, the key mindsets to have, and the first steps for getting traction.

Key Points

If you’re doing change right, it’s going to be messy.
Before you remove a fence, figure out why it’s there.
Take inspiration from Emily Dickinson: “Tell all the truth but tell it slant.”
Beware giving lip service to the emotional realities of change and then moving forward without really addressing them.
Strategy is a living conversation. Run experiments. Fire bullets before cannonballs.
Motivation is a critical factor in change. Better to be less efficient and have people with you than to force compliance with a “perfect” plan.

Emily Dickinson:

Tell all the truth but tell it slant —
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth’s superb surprise
As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind —

Resources Mentioned

Change Signal podcast hosted by Michael Bungay Stanier
The Coaching Habit* by Michael Bungay Stanier

Related Episodes

Engaging People Through Change, with Cassandra Worthy (episode 571)
How to Approach a Reorg, with Claire Hughes Johnson (episode 621)
How to Prevent a Team From Repeating Mistakes, with Robert “Cujo” Teschner (episode 660)

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