Being the boss isn’t about power trips—it’s about leaving your jerk card at the door.

Turns out, surviving the workplace often comes down to one simple rule: don’t be an asshole. Kim Scott and Amy Sandler sit down with Stanford’s Bob Sutton, author of The No Asshole Rule and The Friction Project, to talk about how real leadership means treating people like people, not just cogs in a machine. Bob gets straight to the point about why toxic behavior kills productivity, how organizational “friction” can be both helpful and harmful, and what it takes to build teams that fight fair and thrive together. They also tackle why efficient isn’t always effective, how to spot—and stop—assholes before they do lasting damage, and why the best bosses aren’t afraid to show up with both candor and care. As Kim puts it, sometimes it’s better to have a hole than an asshole. Whether you're leading a team or just trying to survive one, this conversation is your reminder that treating people with decency is never optional—and if you're stuck choosing between keeping an asshole or leaving a hole, always go with the hole.

Get all of the show notes at RadicalCandor.com/podcast.

Episode Links:

• Radical Friction: The Editor/Author Relationship
• Books | Bob Sutton
• Work Matters | Bob Sutton
• How To Get A Radically Candid Boss | Radical Candor Podcast 3 | 12
• Don't Let A Bad Boss Derail You | Radical Candor Podcast 6 | 18
• Are Assholes More Effective? Bob Sutton Weighs In

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Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction
Kim and Amy introduce Stanford Professor Emeritus Bob Sutton.

(00:01:35) The No Asshole Rule Origin Story
How Bob’s research into organizational decline led to a focus on workplace jerks.

(00:07:02) Layoffs Done Right (And Wrong)
Kim and Bob trade stories on compassionate vs. catastrophic layoffs.

(00:11:16) Good Friction vs. Bad Friction
The Friction Project and why not all efficiency is actually efficient

(00:16:23) Building Emotional Trust
How emotional trust grows and fuels creative partnerships.

(00:24:58) The Asshole Survival Guide: 4 Ways to Deal
Strategies for handling difficult people and navigating toxic environments.

(00:29:50) Certified vs. Clueless Assholes
Recognizing the moments when you might actually be the asshole.

(00:33:47) It Happens at the Listener’s Ear
How context shapes whether something feels candid or cruel.

(00:38:59) Decision-Making, Simplicity & Reversibility
Questions friction-fixers ask to decide when to slow down or speed up.

(00:46:15) Gossip as a Strategic Tool
The ways gossip can help you avoid toxic work environments.

(00:52:03) Fixing Friction at Stanford
Bob shares his current work helping Stanford reduce internal friction.

(00:55:54) Where to Find Bob Sutton
Where to find Bob and his books — plus a final note on long emails.

(00:56:50) Conclusion