Lenny's Podcast: Product | Growth | Career

Managing nerves, anxiety, and burnout | Jonny Miller (Nervous System Mastery)

Jan 28, 2024

Jonny Miller, founder of Nervous System Mastery, helps tech leaders tackle stress and burnout. He shares how focusing on the body over the mind can alleviate anxiety and the transformative power of breathwork. Jonny introduces the A.P.E. framework for emotional awareness and discusses 'emotional debt' and its impact on well-being. Listeners discover energizing breath techniques and the critical role of interoception in recognizing burnout signs. This episode offers practical tools to enhance resilience and emotional regulation.

01:14:15

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Episode guests

Jonny Miller

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Quick takeaways

Burnout starts with subtle signs in the body and should be addressed before it reaches severe consequences.

Focusing on the body state rather than the mind helps individuals stay calm in stressful situations and respond effectively to signs of stress and burnout.

Embracing and feeling emotions gives individuals a competitive advantage in business and prevents the accumulation of emotional debt, which can lead to negative consequences.

Deep dives

Recognizing Early Signs of Burnout

The speaker explains the feather brick dump truck phenomenon as a way to show how burnout starts with subtle signs in the body. The feather may be feeling tired or exhausted, while the brick represents ignoring these signs. Eventually, the dump truck comes in the form of a health crisis or other severe consequences. The key is to notice the feather and make adjustments before reaching the dump truck stage.

Tactical tips for calming body down when anxious

02:51

Rejuvenate with a 14-Minute NSDR Practice

00:32

Recognizing Emotional Debt

01:36

Recap of Breathing exercises for slowing down or getting more energy

01:05

Intro

5min

Breath and Balance: Managing Anxiety Through Awareness

16min

Energizing Breath Techniques

6min

Harnessing Interoception for Emotional Awareness

9min

Recognizing Early Signs of Burnout Through Interoception

5min

Understanding Emotional Debt and Somatic Healing

21min

Exploring the Connection Between Trauma and the Body

2min

Burnout and Leadership: A Contrarian Perspective

10min

Engaging with Listeners and Course Offerings

2min

Jonny Miller is the founder of Nervous System Mastery, a course that has helped hundreds of founders and tech leaders cultivate calm, reduce nervousness, enhance resilience, and elevate their sense of aliveness. Having personally benefited from Jonny’s teachings, I’m especially excited to have him on the show. In this episode, we discuss:

• How shifting your focus from the mind to the body can help ease nervousness

• The power of breath in changing states

• The importance of “interoception”

• Specific breathing exercises to both calm and excite your nervous system

• The A.P.E. (awareness, posture, and emotion) framework for recognizing body signals

• The “feather, brick, dump truck” phenomenon

• The concept of emotional debt and how to release it

• The competitive advantage of feeling emotions

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Jonny’s five-week boot camp, Nervous System Mastery, will equip you with evidence-backed protocols to cultivate greater calm and agency over your internal state. Learn to rewire maladaptive stress responses and improve your sleep (use code LENNY for $250 discount). Apply here.

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/managing-nerves-anxiety-and-burnout

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Where to find Jonny Miller:

• X: https://twitter.com/jonnym1ller

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonnym1ller/

• Website: https://www.jonnymiller.co/

• Podcast: podcast.curioushumans.com

• Email: jonny@curioushumans.com

• Course: https://nsmastery.com/lenny

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Jonny’s background

(07:19) The bottom-up approach to nervousness and anxiety

(09:42) The power of breath in changing states

(11:47) The concept of state over story

(13:56) Personal experiences with nervousness

(15:01) Breathing exercises to calm you down

(20:40) The “espresso” breath exercise to give you energy

(25:44) Interoception and the A.P.E. framework

(34:47) The “feather, brick, dump truck” phenomenon

(37:40) Recognizing emotional debt and avoiding burnout

(40:47) Using somatic-oriented therapy for healing

(45:26) Telltale signs of emotional debt

(48:13) The competitive advantage of “feeling the feels”

(50:20) Advice for people overwhelmed by stimuli

(52:36) The NSDR (non-sleep deep rest) practice for emotional release

(55:38) Daily practices for emotional well-being

(58:23) Thoughts on meditation

(01:01:26) The Body Keeps the Score

(01:01:58) Contrarian corner

(01:04:43) Lightning round

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Jonny’s If [This] Then [Breathe] Recipes:

• If [overwhelmed], then [hum]

• If [anxious], then [breath of calm]

• If [lethargic], then [espresso breath]

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Referenced:

• The Operating Manual for Your Nervous System: https://every.to/p/the-operating-manual-for-your-nervous-system

• Afferent vs. Efferent Neurons: https://www.osmosis.org/answers/afferent-vs-efferent-neurons

• Insular cortex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_cortex

• Jonny’s TED Talk, “The gifts of grief”: https://www.ted.com/talks/jonny_miller_the_gifts_of_grief/details

• Humming (Simple Bhramari Pranayama) as a Stress Buster: A Holter-Based Study to Analyze Heart Rate Variability (HRV) Parameters During Bhramari, Physical Activity, Emotional Stress, and Sleep: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10182780/

• 14-Minute Guided NSDR (non-sleep deep rest) practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjXX2c72fYY

• Breathing Techniques to Reduce Stress and Anxiety | Dr. Andrew Huberman on the Physiological Sigh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSZKIupBUuc

• Interoception: the hidden sense that shapes well-being: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/15/the-hidden-sense-shaping-your-wellbeing-interoception

• Exteroception: https://dictionary.apa.org/exteroception

• Interoceptive Awareness and ADHD: https://chadd.org/adhd-news/adhd-news-adults/interoceptive-awareness-and-adhd/

• Childhood Trauma Affects Stress-Related Interoceptive Accuracy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6813623/

• The Hour Between Dog and Wolf: How Risk Taking Transforms Us, Body and Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Hour-Between-Dog-Wolf-Transforms/dp/0143123408

• Somatic Experiencing: https://www.somaticexperiencing.com/

• Hakomi Institute: https://hakomiinstitute.com/

• Decisions and Desire (about Antonio Damasio’s work): https://hbr.org/2006/01/decisions-and-desire

• When enough is enough | Andy Johns (ex-FB, Twitter, Quora): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/when-enough-is-enough-andy-johns-ex-fb-twitter-quora/

• What Is Yoga Nidra?: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/what-is-yoga-nidra

• Becoming Fully Yourself, What AI Wants, Family Rituals & Rites of Passage, with Kevin Kelly: https://podcast.curioushumans.com/episodes/becoming-fully-yourself-what-ai-wants-rites-of-passage-with-kevin-kelly

• Tim Ferriss: https://tim.blog/

• The Power of Sensations: Intermediate’s Vipassana Body Scan: https://insighttimer.com/carola.ananda/guided-meditations/the-power-of-sensations-intermediates-vipassana-body-scan-meditation

• Vipassana Meditation: https://www.dhamma.org/en/index

• The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0670785938

• Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma: https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Tiger-Healing-Peter-Levine/dp/155643233X

• Consolations: The Solace, Nourishment and Underlying Meaning of Everyday Words: https://www.themarginalian.org/2015/04/29/david-whyte-consolations-words/

• The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable/dp/0990976904/

• The Conscious Leadership Group: https://conscious.is/

• Recapture the Rapture: Rethinking God, Sex, and Death in a World That’s Lost Its Mind: https://www.amazon.com/Recapture-Rapture-Rethinking-Death-World/dp/0062905465

• Kubo and the Two Strings on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/Kubo-Two-Strings-Charlize-Theron/dp/B01K5BSWX0

• Wolfwalkers on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/wolfwalkers/umc.cmc.amuoq00hqelfi98j0gvg641x

• Scavengers Reign on Max: https://www.max.com/shows/scavengers-reign/50c8ce6d-088c-42d9-9147-d1b19b1289d4

• Jerry Colonna on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerry-colonna-reboot/

• Ra Optics “Sunset” blue-light blockers: https://raoptics.com/collections/night-lenses

• Nurosym vagal stimulation device: https://my.nurosym.com/vns1564/

• Pulsetto vagal stimulation device: https://pulsetto.tech/new-year/?gc_id=20124962116&h_ad_id=686249897188&gad_source=1

• Apollo vagus nerve stimulator: https://apolloneuro.com/products/apollo-wearable

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Additional research:

• Cellular allostatic load is linked to increased energy expenditure and accelerated biological aging: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453023003001

• Somatic experiencing: using interoception and proprioception as core elements of trauma therapy: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00093/full

• Relationship between interoception and emotion regulation: New evidence from mixed methods: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032718323723

• Out-of-the-blue panic attacks aren’t without warning: body sends signals for hour before: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21783179/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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