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How to Think Like a World-Class Marketer | Rory Sutherland

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Dec 9, 2025

Guest

Rory Sutherland

Rory Sutherland, former Ogilvy vice chairman and author of Alchemy, shares his insights on marketing and human behavior. He reveals how contrast influences decisions and critiques the obsession with efficiency that often undermines value. Rory also discusses the importance of trust in persuasion, the value of exceptional customer service illustrated by Dyson's approach, and why emotional connections will always trump mere metrics. He offers practical tips on writing compelling copy, emphasizing the art of conversation and the power of storytelling.

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insights

INSIGHT

Choice Requires Contrast

People rarely accept a single option; they choose by contrast and need multiple choices to decide.
AI interfaces that return one 'perfect' result misunderstand how humans actually choose.

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ADVICE

Dont Cut Tacit Human Value

Do not optimize purely for visible cost savings; preserve tacit human value in roles like a doorman.
Prioritize value-creation functions that metrics often miss, not just measurable efficiency.

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ANECDOTE

Postman Beats Metrics

Royal Mail found brand affection tracked with liking the postman, not delivery metrics.
Personal human interactions often outweigh objective service performance in customer perception.

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AI, choice, and the need for contrast

01:21 • 3min

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Efficiency vs psychological value

03:51 • 55sec

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The Dorman fallacy and hidden human value

04:47 • 2min

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Why friendly staff outperform metrics

06:59 • 2min

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Invest in call centers and human staff

Transaction utility and Thaler's beer experiment

17:53 • 2min

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Trust, manipulation, and psychopathic intent

19:56 • 7min

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Brand quake and customer recovery moments

27:10 • 1min

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Dyson's customer-first call center approach

Map versus territory in business decisions

38:54 • 56sec

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Customer value companies vs shareholder focus

39:51 • 4min

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Founders, family firms, and long-term marketing

44:18 • 6min

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Why Dyson's service justifies premium pricing

50:19 • 4min

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Tech bros, consultants and technoplasmosis

54:40 • 4min

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Lessons from Buffett: management consistency

58:44 • 5min

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Buying scarce assets and paying a premium

01:03:36 • 8min

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High-trust societies, law, and common sense

01:11:50 • 7min

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Cancel culture, outrage and media incentives

01:18:41 • 7min

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Why people buy luxury goods and signaling

01:25:41 • 18min

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How to write persuasive copy

01:44:08 • 4min

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Marketing fat tails and the value of big ideas

01:48:38 • 8min

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What success means to Rory

Why America Succeeds Only When Its Citizens Can Act

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Alchemy

The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business and Life

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In this book, Rory Sutherland explores the art and science of creating magic in brands, business, and life. He combines scientific research with entertaining stories and case studies from his career, including campaigns for AmEx and Microsoft. Sutherland emphasizes the importance of understanding human behavior, highlighting how decisions are often influenced by subtle external signals rather than objective qualities. The book challenges traditional marketing strategies by advocating for a more holistic and creative approach, using techniques such as storytelling, social proof, and framing to influence consumer decisions. It also explores how these principles can be applied to various social aims beyond just selling products.

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Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland reveals the formula for persuasion, why people make decisions and how you can use psychology to your advantage.

Rory is the world’s leading advertising strategist. He spent almost four decades as Ogilvy studying why people behave the way they do and how to change that behavior.

He explains why contrast drives choices and efficiency often destroys value, and how trust, friction, and design shape real-world behavior.

+Rory was previously on the show, check out episode 19.

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Approximate Chapters:

(00:00) Introduction

(01:31) AI and Decision Making

(03:48) Are We Looking for Efficiency in the Wrong Place?

(15:52) Ad Break

(18:09) Ice Cold Beer Thought Experiment

(19:56) Trust and Manipulation

(27:15) Dyson Customer Experience and 'Brand Quake'

(29:21) Customer Value Thinking

(34:28) Why Is Dyson So Effective at Marketing?

(36:28) Ad Break

(38:51) Map/Territory Problem in Business

(39:27) The Problem with Shareholders

(42:29) The Problem with 'Tech Bro' Decision Making

(45:14) Warren Buffett’s Approach to Choosing Management

(47:52) John Bragg’s Approach to Buying Infrastructure

(51:23) High Trust vs Low Trust Societies

(58:45) What Can We Learn from the Mad Men Era of Marketing

(1:03:59) The Danger of Bad Marketing

(1:17:47) Navigating Cancel Culture with Common Sense

(1:29:59) Signalling to Ourselves When We Purchase Something

(1:39:06) Changing of Societal Norms

(1:43:27) How to Write Good Copy

(1:56:30) What Is Success for You?

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