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The Tim Ferriss Show
#699: Apollo Robbins, The World’s Most Famous Pickpocket — Pickpocketing the Secret Service, Manipulating Attention, Famous Con Artists, The Psychology of Deception, Self-Defense Techniques, The Secret Language of Thieves, and More
Oct 19, 2023
Apollo Robbins, The Gentleman Thief known for pick-pocketing the Secret Service, discusses topics like manipulating attention, famous con artists, self-defense techniques, the secret language of thieves, and more. He shares stories about childhood adventures with animals, blending animation techniques and Ikeeto for body manipulation, taking risks in Las Vegas, handling failed pickpocketing techniques, exploring biases and curiosity, the structure and roles of a pickpocket team, historical figures and card mechanics, redefining boredom for increased imagination, covert learning strategies, and deceptive practices.
02:34:06
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Quick takeaways
- Develop a unique style in magic by combining influences from animation, martial arts, and jazz.
- Mentors play a crucial role in shaping and guiding a magician's career.
- Taking risks and exploring different angles can set a magician apart from others.
- Confidence, observation, and surprise are key elements in captivating an audience.
- Deception can be a valuable tool when used strategically and ethically.
- Understanding cognitive illusions and biases enhances a magician's ability to amaze and captivate.
Deep dives
Finding a New Path
After reading magic books and experimenting with different techniques, the speaker was encouraged by a hypnotist to pursue magic full-time. He left his job as an artist and took up performing magic. He had already been performing professionally, so he had acts ready to go. He focused on developing a unique style influenced by animation, martial arts, and jazz, which allowed him to manipulate and control his audience's perception and create a personalized experience.
Meeting Influential Mentors
The speaker met several influential mentors throughout his career in magic, including a magician named Darryl Martinez who inspired him to move to Las Vegas and pursue magic seriously. Another mentor, Ben Stone, introduced the speaker to different magic books and taught him the importance of reading and learning from different perspectives. He also mentioned Ed Dillard, a hypnotist who helped him see the power of creating experiences for the audience. These mentors played a key role in shaping the speaker's style and guiding his career in magic.
A Significant Turning Point
A turning point in the speaker's career was the encouragement he received from a hypnotist during a lunch break. The hypnotist planted the idea that it would be an amazing story later in life to say he quit his job as an artist and became a magician because a hypnotist told him to. This idea resonated with the speaker, and he decided to take the leap of faith and quit his job. Shortly after, an opportunity arose for him to fill in as a performer for a corporate event in Las Vegas, which solidified his decision to pursue magic full-time.
Developing a Unique Style
The speaker's unique style in magic was developed through various influences. He combined animation principles, martial arts, and jazz to create a fluid and dynamic performance. He incorporated techniques like Equivoke, a form of mentalism that influenced people's choices and gave them the illusion of free will. He also embraced the art of misdirection and used his skills in stealing and blending in to create a distinct and captivating performance. His willingness to take risks and explore different angles in magic set him apart from other magicians.
The Art of Deception and Misdirection
The speaker recounts a story of how he used his skills to deceive and entertain at a performance. He shares an experience where he stole a man's pen, inserted his own water refill into it, and challenged the man to steal something from him. This interaction demonstrates the speaker's unique style of using misdirection and sleight-of-hand to surprise and engage his audience.
The Importance of Confidence and Observation
The speaker emphasizes the significance of confidence and observation in his style. He narrates an instance where he confidently interacted with someone who doubted his ability to steal. By carefully observing body language and exploiting the individual's focus, he successfully stole his pen, leaving the person bewildered.
The Element of Uncertainty and Surprise
The speaker discusses the element of uncertainty and surprise as essential components of his style. He shares a story where he impressed two Secret Service agents by stealing their belongings, highlighting the importance of surprise, suspense, and premeditation in his performances.
The Role of Psychology in Influence
The speaker explores the influence of psychology in his style. He showcases the power of attention and perception, manipulating individuals' sightlines, and creating situations that challenge their expectations. By understanding cognitive illusions and biases, he enhances his ability to amaze and captivate his audience.
The Power of Deception in Social Interactions
Deception can serve as a social lubricant and is a valuable tool in navigating various situations. While lying is generally frowned upon, there are pro-social uses of deception that can benefit individuals and society.
The Role of Deception in Various Aspects of Life
Deception is not limited to interpersonal interactions, but can also be used in different fields such as medicine, advertising, and even addressing societal problems like malaria. The use of deception can be powerful when employed strategically and ethically.
The Impact and Importance of Questioning Beliefs
Deception and its role in shaping beliefs is explored, highlighting the need for critical thinking and questioning what we think we know. By understanding the construction of beliefs, individuals can update their belief systems and approach information more thoughtfully.
Exploring the World of Thieves and Con Artists
The podcast delves into the fascinating world of thieves, con artists, and pickpocket teams. The discussion includes the various roles within pickpocket teams, such as the wire, the stick, the shade, the stall, and the steer, and the importance of situational awareness to protect oneself from such activities.
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Apollo Robbins (@ApolloRobbins) is often referred to as “The Gentleman Thief.” He first made national news when he pick-pocketed the Secret Service while entertaining a former U.S. President. Forbes has called Robbins “an artful manipulator of awareness,” and Wired has written that “he could steal the wallet of a man who knew he was going to have his pocket picked.”
Robbins’ entertainment credentials include the Warner Bros. film Focus, with Will Smith and Margot Robbie, along with appearances in Brooklyn 99, and the TNT series Leverage. He was a producer and co-host for National Geographic’s Brain Games, which was nominated for an Emmy for Outstanding Informational Series. Robbins applies his expertise in magic and misdirection beyond entertainment, pulling back the curtain to show how the principles behind these illusions can enhance strategic thinking and decision-making.
His contributions to attention and perception research have been published in Scientific American Mind and Nature Reviews Neuroscience. He has delivered lectures at Harvard Kennedy School, MIT Sloan School of Management, and the Society of Neuroscience. He has been profiled by The New Yorker and featured in The New York Times, The Atlantic, National Geographic, and The Wall Street Journal. Robbins’ TED Talk, “The Art of Misdirection,” is ranked in the 20 most-watched TED Talks of all time and has been hailed by the TED editors as a revelation in the flaws of human perception.
Please enjoy!
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[07:51] Was Apollo a naturally dextrous wunderkind?
[10:26] The influence of Apollo’s blind minister father.
[14:10] Apollo’s slide toward agnosticism.
[17:24] Ben Stone enters the picture.
[21:08] Taking in orphaned animals as a youngster.
[23:31] An early lesson on the value of money.
[25:20] Bear in a box.
[28:19] Seeing magic as a ticket to the larger world.
[30:55] Shoplifting for fun, profit, and education.
[32:19] Equivoque magic and Jazz-based mentalism.
[38:09] A magic book club and a year-round Santa.
[44:10] Apollo’s first fateful trip to Vegas.
[52:14] A false accusation leads to a real job and a vampire code.
[55:27] Jimmy Carter and the Secret Service.
[1:03:44] The pros and cons of becoming legendary.
[1:05:39] Academic accolades.
[1:08:01] A sauce less secret isn’t necessarily less rich.
[1:09:28] Recovering when the reps get rough.
[1:11:12] Sheet music versus jazz.
[1:14:10] The introduction to — and enduring influence of — Apollo’s wife, Ava Do.
[1:22:27] Perception science perceived but not yet entered into the lexicon.
[1:26:16] The significance of Apollo’s silver ring.
[1:27:01] Meeting (and stealing from) Penn Jillette.
[1:29:10] Demonstrating the confidence of a con man.
[1:33:03] Hallmarks that differentiate Apollo’s style.
[1:40:14] Who has the advantage with arguments in the Robbins household?
[1:41:18] 40 Elephants in the modern world.
[1:42:52] Teaching kids about the cons — and pros — of deception.
[1:45:50] Paltering and puffery.
[1:49:14] Perceptual shaping and change raising.
[1:51:14] Slick re-thievery.
[1:54:01] Influential reading.
[1:56:38] Whiz Mob.
[1:59:22] How is a team of pickpockets organized?
[2:04:54] The pandemic of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
[2:08:37] Best practices to avoid becoming a target for theft.
[2:11:14] The Illusion of Knowledge Project.
[2:15:28] The Unsinkable Titanic Thompson and other noteworthy charlatans.
[2:19:06] Rod the Hop, Kevin Mitnick, and Whizmob Inc.
[2:23:11] How one word can make a difference to an impressionable child.
[2:26:38] Parting thoughts.
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For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show, please visit tim.blog/podcast.
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Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show include Jerry Seinfeld, Hugh Jackman, Dr. Jane Goodall, LeBron James, Kevin Hart, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Jamie Foxx, Matthew McConaughey, Esther Perel, Elizabeth Gilbert, Terry Crews, Sia, Yuval Noah Harari, Malcolm Gladwell, Madeleine Albright, Cheryl Strayed, Jim Collins, Mary Karr, Maria Popova, Sam Harris, Michael Phelps, Bob Iger, Edward Norton, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Neil Strauss, Ken Burns, Maria Sharapova, Marc Andreessen, Neil Gaiman, Neil de Grasse Tyson, Jocko Willink, Daniel Ek, Kelly Slater, Dr. Peter Attia, Seth Godin, Howard Marks, Dr. Brené Brown, Eric Schmidt, Michael Lewis, Joe Gebbia, Michael Pollan, Dr. Jordan Peterson, Vince Vaughn, Brian Koppelman, Ramit Sethi, Dax Shepard, Tony Robbins, Jim Dethmer, Dan Harris, Ray Dalio, Naval Ravikant, Vitalik Buterin, Elizabeth Lesser, Amanda Palmer, Katie Haun, Sir Richard Branson, Chuck Palahniuk, Arianna Huffington, Reid Hoffman, Bill Burr, Whitney Cummings, Rick Rubin, Dr. Vivek Murthy, Darren Aronofsky, Margaret Atwood, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Dr. Gabor Maté, Anne Lamott, Sarah Silverman, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and many more.
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