The Tim Ferriss Show
#687: Justin Gary — Taking the Path Less Traveled, The Phenomenon of “Magic: The Gathering,” How Analytical People Can Become “Creative” People, Finding the Third Right Answer, and How to Escape Your Need for Control
Episode guests
Podcast summary created with Snipd AI
Quick takeaways
- Overcoming self-doubt and imposter syndrome is crucial in unlocking creative potential.
- Challenging assumptions can lead to innovative and unexpected solutions in game design.
- The core design loop in game development consists of inspiring, framing, brainstorming, prototyping, testing, and iterating.
- Transitioning to entrepreneurship requires financial security, risk mitigation, and a proactive mindset.
- Effective marketing strategies, such as eye-catching visuals, can attract attention and differentiate games at trade shows.
- Targeted feedback and proper playtesting methods are essential for improving game design and creating a positive player experience.
Deep dives
Magic career arc: From winning nationals to redemption at worlds
After winning the US national championships in Magic: The Gathering at the age of 17, the speaker faced the disappointment of losing at the world championships. This loss became a motivator for seeking redemption and making it back to the national team. After five years, the US loses again and the speaker gets a chance to prove himself once more. With intense preparation and a dedicated team, the speaker leads the US national team to victory at the world championships in Berlin. This achievement marks a significant turning point in the speaker's magic career and sets the stage for the next chapter.
Transition from law school to game design
Despite a law school acceptance and familial pressure to pursue law, the speaker realizes that he feels unhappy and unfulfilled in that field. Through an internship opportunity and working on a Marvel comics card game, the speaker discovers his passion for game design. Taking the risk to follow his true passion, the speaker quits law school and embarks on a career in game design. This decision is initially met with resistance from family but ultimately leads to greater personal satisfaction and happiness.
Discovering creativity and game design process
Entering the game design field, the speaker initially struggles with imposter syndrome and doubts about his creative abilities. However, through reading books like 'A Whack on the Side of the Head' and seeking guidance from experienced designers, the speaker begins to demystify creativity and develop a step-by-step game design process. Embracing random constraints, challenging assumptions, and exploring multiple right answers become valuable tools in the creative process. The speaker also highlights the importance of deadlines as a catalyst for creativity and overcoming self-doubt.
Challenging assumptions and adapting game designs
Continuing the discussion on creativity, the speaker recommends challenging assumptions as a powerful exercise for breaking out of linear thinking. By consciously surfacing and questioning assumptions, designers can reveal new possibilities and explore alternative approaches. The speaker shares an example of reimagining a digital trading card game as a physical card game through this process of challenging assumptions. This exercise encourages designers to think beyond the expected and opens up new creative paths.
Importance of Prototyping and Testing
The core design loop is essential in game development, consisting of six steps: inspiring, framing, brainstorming, prototyping, testing, and iterating. The inspiring phase involves finding the core idea that excites the creator. Framing sets constraints, including deadlines, to guide the next steps. Brainstorming generates a plethora of ideas, followed by organizing and eliminating to refine the concepts. Prototyping involves creating a minimum viable product to test assumptions. Testing involves gathering feedback from players and evaluating the game's mechanics and engagement. Iterating involves learning from feedback and going through the design loop again. The key to creativity in game design is effectively navigating this process, continuously refining and improving the game.
Taking Risks in Entrepreneurship
Transitioning from working for a company to becoming an entrepreneur requires risk-taking and strategic planning. Justin Gary shares his experience of starting his own game company. He emphasizes the importance of having a cushion of savings to provide financial security during the early stages. By understanding the worst-case scenarios and having backup plans, he was able to mitigate risk and confidently pursue entrepreneurship. Justin learned that the difference between leaders and others is their willingness to make assertions and take responsibility for the outcomes. He highlights the value of defining what you want and creating the freedom to pursue it, embracing a proactive approach to shaping your future.
Drawing Attention in a Competitive Market
Stand out from the crowd and gather attention by utilizing effective marketing strategies. When showcasing games at trade shows like Gamma, it is important to have eye-catching elements to attract visitors. Justin Gary shares his experience of using shiny beads and visual displays to captivate attendees. He also highlights the importance of finding unique components or visuals that differentiate your game from others. By leveraging visual appeal and creating an engaging atmosphere, you can generate interest and curiosity, enticing attendees to stop by and explore your game.
Effective Playtesting for Game Development
Playtesting is crucial for improving game design and ensuring a positive player experience. Justin Gary stresses the significance of targeted feedback and proper playtesting methods. Asking specific questions and observing non-verbal cues are essential when collecting feedback. It is important to focus on different aspects of the game during different stages of development. Justin emphasizes analyzing patterns and themes in feedback from players in the target audience. Additionally, recognizing that readers are often accurate in identifying issues but not necessarily in providing specific solutions is vital for effective iteration and improvement.
Cultivate Comfort with Uncertainty and Impermanence
Justin shares his mantra of cultivating comfort with uncertainty and impermanence. By embracing the unpredictable nature of life and accepting that things will inevitably change, one can find freedom and peace.
Letting Go of Control to Empower Others
Justin recounts his transformative experience of taking a three-week trip to Thailand, leaving his team to run the company without him. By relinquishing control and trusting his team, he discovered that he had been holding them back and hindering their growth. This realization led to a shift in his management style and a newfound appreciation for empowering others.
Lessons from Facing Failure and Bankruptcy
Justin candidly shares his experience of facing failure and nearly going bankrupt. Despite the hardships, he learned valuable lessons about resilience, accepting failure, and making difficult decisions. Through renegotiating debts, reducing overhead, and focusing on clear goals, he was able to turn his company around and come out stronger on the other side.
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Justin Gary (@Justin_Gary) is an award-winning designer, author, speaker, and entrepreneur. He is CEO of Stone Blade Entertainment and creator of the innovative and award-winning Ascension deck-building game series. Prior to designing games, Justin was the youngest ever Magic: The Gathering US National Champion. He has studied creativity and applied the principles of design to create dozens of products over his 20 years in the industry for brands that include Marvel, World of Warcraft, and the Wharton School of Business. Today, he designs, consults, and teaches creativity around the world as a digital nomad.
Justin is also the author of Think Like a Game Designer: The Step-By-Step Guide to Unlocking Your Creative Potential and host of the Think Like a Game Designer podcast.
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[07:43] An origin story steeped in Magic.
[11:23] A debatable past.
[16:38] The life of a full-time Magic competitor.
[18:24] A philosophy major.
[19:45] Monopoly lessons learned from a family of lawyers.
[23:28] Innovations that made Magic an instant success.
[26:40] Magic game balance considerations.
[30:06] Justin exits his Magic career with an altered mindset.
[36:43] Too cool for law school.
[41:34] Risk is relative.
[43:39] From playing games to designing games.
[46:10] A Whack on the Side of the Head.
[49:53] Surfacing our assumptions.
[54:47] The core design loop and effective brainstorming.
[1:00:20] Brainstorming tools.
[1:02:01] Prototyping.
[1:06:26] The value of ugly first drafts.
[1:09:37] From company man to entrepreneur.
[1:15:45] Fear-setting and contingency planning.
[1:18:13] The early stages of startup life.
[1:24:05] TTP.
[1:25:21] Taking the company to the next level.
[1:31:43] Gaming GAMA and other trade shows.
[1:37:02] Eliciting feedback at the playtesting stage.
[1:42:32] Ascension debuts at Gen Con.
[1:47:04] The finances of game production.
[1:51:27] The pros and cons of selling a game to another company.
[1:53:54] Favorite failures.
[1:59:17] Maintaining relationships through failures.
[2:00:45] Lessons learned through trial and error.
[2:03:39] Putting the rule of three to work.
[2:05:21] Why Justin’s team communicates via Discord.
[2:07:49] How a trip to Thailand helped Justin escape his need for control.
[2:11:25] Justin’s billboard.
[2:12:49] Parting thoughts.
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