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What sets great teams apart | Lane Shackleton (CPO of Coda)

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Oct 1, 2023

Guest

Lane Shackleton

Lane Shackleton, CPO of Coda and former Google and YouTube product specialist, shares his journey from Alaskan climbing guide to tech leader. He discusses the principles that set great product managers apart, emphasizing trust and shared experiences. Lane introduces innovative team rituals and the concept of two-way write-ups to enhance collaboration. He also reflects on the impact of public endorsements, like Tim Ferriss's newsletter, in shaping startup trajectories. The conversation is packed with insights on career growth and effective communication in product development.

01:29:51

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volunteer_activism

ADVICE

Systems, Not Goals

Focus on systems, not goals, for achieving long-term success.
Establish default-on systems like regular customer interaction instead of outcome-based goals.

volunteer_activism

ADVICE

Cathedrals, Not Bricks

Help your team visualize the "cathedral," not just the "bricks," by connecting them to the bigger picture.
Use various mediums like metrics, mocks, and write-ups to show different facets of the overall vision.

volunteer_activism

ADVICE

Developing Principles

Develop principles by reading broadly and reflecting on recurring advice given in mentoring.
Consider what resonates with you from various fields and why you offer specific guidance repeatedly.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Lessons from Climbing to Product Management

04:26 • 17min

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Building Connections and Cultivating Growth

21:08 • 19min

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Effective Communication and Product Review Innovations

39:57 • 7min

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Enhancing Collaboration through Product Development Rituals

46:47 • 24min

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The Impact of Influential Endorsements on Startups

01:10:52 • 2min

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The Evolution of Work Communication

01:13:22 • 6min

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Separating Strategy from Execution: Insights on Planning

01:19:22 • 2min

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Lightning Round Insights

01:21:31 • 8min

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#643

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The Score Takes Care of Itself

My Philosophy of Leadership

Bill Walsh

This book provides insights into Bill Walsh's philosophy of leadership, gleaned from his successful career as the head coach and general manager of the San Francisco 49ers. Walsh stresses the importance of creating a strong culture, setting high standards, and thorough preparation. He advocates for leaders to focus on the process rather than the outcome, emphasizing that 'the score takes care of itself' when the right principles are applied. The book also touches on Walsh's personal struggles and the toll of relentless pressure, highlighting the importance of maintaining a balance between work and personal life. It offers practical advice on leadership, applicable not only in sports but also in business and other fields.

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The Inner Game of Tennis

Timothy Gallwey

This book, first published in 1974, focuses on the 'Inner Game' played within the mind of the player, against obstacles such as self-doubt, nervousness, and lapses in concentration. Gallwey introduces the concept of two selves: Self 1, the thinking brain that analyzes and judges, and Self 2, the 'feeling and doing' brain that can master skills naturally if not interfered with by Self 1. The book provides strategies for achieving 'relaxed concentration' and overcoming internal mental and emotional obstacles, making it relevant not only to tennis but also to other areas of life such as music, writing, work, and personal relationships.

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Turning the Flywheel

Jim Collins

This monograph, a companion to 'Good to Great', delves into the flywheel concept introduced by Jim Collins. It explains how successful organizations, such as Amazon, Vanguard, and the Cleveland Clinic, have used this concept to gain unstoppable momentum. Collins teaches readers how to create their own flywheel, accelerate its momentum, and maintain it in shifting markets. The book emphasizes the importance of understanding the sequence and components of a unique flywheel and provides seven steps to construct and optimize it.

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Good Strategy/Bad Strategy

The Difference and Why It Matters

Richard Rumelt

In *Good Strategy/Bad Strategy*, Richard Rumelt clarifies the distinction between effective and ineffective strategies. He argues that a good strategy is a specific and coherent response to overcoming obstacles, harnessing power where it will have the greatest effect. Rumelt debunks elements of 'bad strategy' such as equating goals, motivational slogans, and financial targets with actual strategy. He introduces the 'kernel' of strategy, which includes a diagnosis of the challenge, a guiding policy, and coherent action. The book uses diverse examples from business, nonprofit, and military contexts to illustrate these concepts and emphasizes the importance of analytical rigor and focused effort in strategy development.

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The Creative Act

A Way of Being

Rick Rubin

In *The Creative Act: A Way of Being*, Rick Rubin distills the wisdom he has gained from a lifetime of working with artists across various genres. The book is not just about music production but about the broader creative process and how it applies to everyone's life. Rubin emphasizes the importance of reconnecting with a state of innocence, being aware of the world, and tapping into what he calls 'Source'—an infinite and constant flow of ideas and inspiration. The book is structured around 78 areas of thought, providing practical wisdom, philosophical insights, and encouragement for anyone seeking to enhance their creative expression.

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Waking Up

A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion

Sam Harris

In this book, Sam Harris argues that there is more to understanding reality than science and secular culture generally allow. He explores the scientific underpinnings of spirituality, suggesting that how we pay attention to the present moment largely determines the quality of our lives. The book is part memoir and part exploration, discussing the illusion of the self, the benefits of meditation, and the importance of understanding consciousness through both scientific and philosophical lenses.

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This Is Marketing

You Can't Be Seen Until You Learn To See

Seth Godin

In 'This Is Marketing', Seth Godin presents a transformative view of marketing as a generous act of helping others solve problems. The book focuses on key principles such as targeting the smallest viable market, delivering anticipated, personal, and relevant messages, and building trust through permission marketing. Godin argues that effective marketing is about creating positive change and helping people become who they want to be. He provides actionable insights, case studies, and a strategic focus on storytelling, tension, and customer-centric approaches. The book is designed for entrepreneurs, small business owners, freelancers, and marketers looking to reframe their marketing strategies and connect meaningfully with their audiences.

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The obstacle is the way

Ryan Holiday

In 'The Obstacle Is the Way', Ryan Holiday presents a framework for turning obstacles into successes. Drawing from the philosophy of Stoicism and the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Holiday outlines three disciplines: perception, action, and will. He illustrates these principles with historical anecdotes from figures such as John D. Rockefeller, Amelia Earhart, Ulysses S. Grant, and Steve Jobs. The book emphasizes the importance of perception in shaping one's response to obstacles, the need for intentional and creative action, and the cultivation of will to persist through challenges. Holiday argues that by adopting these Stoic principles, individuals can transform their obstacles into opportunities for growth and success.

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Endurance

Shackleton's Incredible Voyage

Alfred Lansing

This book details the almost two-year struggle for survival of the 28-man crew of the Endurance, which was beset and eventually crushed by ice floes in the Weddell Sea during the Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition of 1914-1917. The crew drifted on ice floes, salvaged lifeboats, and eventually reached Elephant Island. Shackleton then led a perilous journey to South Georgia Island to secure rescue, culminating in one of the most remarkable survival stories in history. Lansing's narrative is based on extensive research, including interviews with surviving crew members and access to their diaries and personal accounts.

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Storyworthy

Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling

Matthew Dicks

In 'Storyworthy,' Matthew Dicks provides a comprehensive guide on the art of storytelling. The book is divided into three parts: Finding your story, Crafting your story, and Telling your story. Dicks shares his own stories to illustrate key points and offers tips and exercises to help readers improve their storytelling skills. He emphasizes the importance of identifying a 'five-second moment' of transformation or realization in every story and provides techniques for making stories engaging and memorable. The book is designed to help anyone become a better storyteller, whether for personal or professional purposes, and highlights how storytelling can deepen connections with others and enhance one's own life.

Brought to you by Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments | Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security | Ezra—The leading full-body cancer screening company

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Lane Shackleton is CPO of Coda, where he’s been leading the product and design team for over eight years. Lane started his career as an Alaskan climbing guide and then as a manual reviewer of AdWords ads before becoming a product specialist at Google and later a Group PM at YouTube. He also writes a weekly newsletter with insights and rituals for PMs, product teams, and startups. In today’s conversation, we discuss:• Principles that set great PMs apart• Rituals of great product teams• The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters• “Two-way write-up”• The story of how skippable YouTube ads were born and lessons learned• How to gauge personal career growth• “Tim Ferriss Day” and its impact on Coda’s history• How Lane bootstrapped his way to CPO from the bottom of the tech ladder

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Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-sets-great-teams-apart-lane-shackleton-cpo-of-coda/

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Where to find Lane Shackleton:

• X: https://twitter.com/lshackleton

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laneshackleton

• Substack: https://lane.substack.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Lane’s background

(04:03) Working as a guide in Alaska

(07:32) Parallels between guiding and building software

(09:12) Why Lane started studying and writing about product teams

(12:49) How Lane came up with the career ladder and guiding principles

(14:10) The five levels Coda’s career ladder

(16:30) Principles of great product managers

(21:06) The beginner’s-mind ritual at Coda

(24:05) Two rituals: “cathedrals not bricks” and “proactive not reactive”

(27:46) How to develop your own guiding principles

(31:17) Learning from your “oh s**t” moments

(36:03) Rituals from great product teams: HubSpot’s FlashTags

(42:15) Rituals from great product teams: Coda’s Catalyst

(47:01) Implementing rituals from other companies

(49:48) How to navigate changing vs. sticking with current rituals

(53:02) “Tag up” and why one-on-one meetings are harmful

(55:27) Lane’s handbook on strategy and rituals

(57:10) How skippable ads came about on YouTube

(1:01:46) Lane’s path to CPO

(1:07:02) Advice for aspiring PMs

(1:10:53) Tim Ferriss Day at Coda

(1:13:24) Using two-way write-ups

(1:19:30) The fine line between OKRs and strategy, and why it matters

(1:21:41) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Endurance: https://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shackletons-Incredible-Alfred-Lansing/dp/0465062881

• Bret Victor’s talk “Inventing on Principle”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGqwXt90ZqA

• Jeremy Britton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremybritton/

• Comedian on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/60024976

• The Score Takes Care of Itself: My Philosophy of Leadership: https://www.amazon.com/Score-Takes-Care-Itself-Philosophy/dp/1591843472

• The Creative Act: A Way of Being: https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Act-Way-Being/dp/0593652886

• AlphaZero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaZero

• Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint-Exup%C3%A9ry

• Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life through the Power of Storytelling: https://www.amazon.com/Storyworthy-Engage-Persuade-through-Storytelling/dp/1608685489

• The Moth: https://themoth.org/events

• Seth Godin’s website: https://www.sethgodin.com/

• The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph: https://www.amazon.com/Obstacle-Way-Timeless-Turning-Triumph/dp/1591846358

• Tony Fadell’s TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOMectkCCs

• FlashTags: A Simple Hack for Conveying Context Without Confusion: https://www.onstartups.com/flashtags-a-simple-hack-for-conveying-context-without-confusion

• How Coda builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-coda-builds-product

• 100-dollar voting ritual: https://coda.io/@lshackleton/100-dollar-voting-exercise

• Pixar’s Brain Trust: https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Trust

• Lane’s product handbook: coda.io/producthandbook

• The rituals of great teams | Shishir Mehrotra of Coda, YouTube, Microsoft: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/the-rituals-of-great-teams-shishir-mehrotra-coda-youtube-microsoft/

• Principle #4: Learn by making, not talking: https://lane.substack.com/p/principle-4-learn-by-making-not-talking

• Phil Farhi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/philfarhi/

• How to ask the right questions, project confidence, and win over skeptics | Paige Costello (Asana, Intercom, Intuit): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-ask-the-right-questions-project-confidence-and-win-over-skeptics-paige-costello-asana-intercom-intuit/

• Chip Conley’s website: https://chipconley.com/

• Jeff Bezos Banned PowerPoint in Meetings. His Replacement Is Brilliant: https://www.inc.com/carmine-gallo/jeff-bezos-bans-powerpoint-in-meetings-his-replacement-is-brilliant.html

• Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Working-Backwards-Insights-Stories-Secrets/dp/1250267595

• Dory and Pulse: https://coda.io/@codatemplates/dory-and-pulse

• Turning the Flywheel: A Monograph to Accompany Good to Great: https://www.amazon.com/Turning-Flywheel-Monograph-Accompany-Great/dp/0062933795/

• Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636024

• The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance: https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314

• Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239

• The Last Dance on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80203144

• Full Swing on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81483353

• Stephen Curry: Underrated on AppleTV+: https://tv.apple.com/us/movie/stephen-curry-underrated/umc.cmc.23v0wxaiwz60bjy1w4vg7npun

• Arrested Development on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70140358

• Shishir’s interview question clip on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lennyrachitsky/video/7160779872296652078

• The Ultimate Reference Check Template: https://coda.io/@startup-hiring/reference-checks-template

• SwingVision: https://swing.tennis/

• Waking Up app: https://www.wakingup.com/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

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