The Church Lobby

Winn Collier, Eugene Peterson's biographer, discusses the impact of Peterson's life and work on pastoral ministry. They delve into Peterson's critique of the church growth movement, emphasizing personal connection over bigness. Topics include the importance of pastoral presence, pushing back against size obsession, and the value of inefficient hours in a pastor's schedule.

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity.There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed.Links:Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the ChurchKarl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Author Karl Vaters discusses the unhealthy focus on church size in America, warning of the dangers it poses. He explores the origins of the church growth movement, unintended consequences, and the importance of prioritizing integrity and discipleship in church leadership.

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends.In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advantages, including:The Happy Birthday EffectSeeing and adjusting our aesthetic cuesStone Soup planningThe value of small-church symbolsHow to ask better questions about our worship experienceAnd so much moreTeresa Stewart is the author of The Small Church Advantage: Seven Powerful Worship Practices that Work Best in Small Settings.Teresa’s approach is simple, practical, and applicable in most small-church settings. She challenges some of the ways we’ve thought about small-church worship, offers viable alternatives, then gives some wonderful step-by-step advice about how to curate worship to be more participatory without letting chaos reign.Links from this Episode:WorshipNerds.comTeresa@smallchurch.org  Bonus ContentThe Role of Conversation in Small-Church Worship, with Teresa StewartKarl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about conversation can be incorporated into the small-church experience. She encourages us to start slow and small. And she helps us curate the experience so it doesn't become a free-for-all. As Teresa wrote in her book, “Conversation in worship is not an anything-goes pursuit. It should serve and deepen the worship. Begin by curating worship in one element of your usual order.”On a very practical level, Teresa talks about the three levels of questions and conversation. Knowing these levels will help you approach this with wisdom and patience, allowing people to participate while maintaining a sense of direction.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Pastor Ian Borkent discusses pastoral burnout, the need for congregation support, avoiding bigness obsession in churches, and the five-fold ministry gifts. They touch on Bunjee Cord Leadership, asking for help, and the discomfort of not doing everything.

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect.Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation, which Karl listed as one of his top ten books in 2023.If a conversation about brain science sounds intimidating, it’s not. Both the book and this conversation put the cookies on a low shelf for all of us.Michel is the Director of Life Model Consulting at LifeModelWorks.org where he works with churches and organizations to help bring maturity and the transformation of character back into the center of Christian practice.Links:The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual StagnationRenovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That TransformsThe Pandora Problem: Facing Narcissism in Leaders & OurselvesLifeModelWorks.orgBONUS MATERIALThe Importance of Joy and Gratitude in MinistryKarl Vaters talks with Michel Hendricks, the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation about the concept that “God designed our brains to run on joy like a car runs on fuel.”The conversation includes why joy "leaks", how to refill our joy tank, and the three importance points of convergence about joy.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

This is the second of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule.This episode features the message I preached in January 2024, on the day our church honored Shelley and me for our 31 years of serving the church on staff.In this message, I talked about what we’re doing next, including why God has called us to the ministry of Helping Small Churches Thrive.It includes some of the key points we teach to Small Church Pastors, like:The Theory of the Long TailThe Grasshopper MythThe Pastoral Prime Mandateand more. It also includes how people can support us in this new era of ministry.We will no longer be receiving a salary from the church, but we’re raising all our own funds to be missionaries to the small churches in need. But the churches that need the help the most can afford it the least.To become a financial supporter, please visit https://karlvaters.com/support/.The message ends with one of the most touching stories I’ve ever heard about a Small Church Pastor who, like so many others, is one of the unsung heroes of the faith.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

This is the first of two very special episodes that we’re doing in back-to-back weeks, instead of our usual bi-weekly schedule.In January 2024, Karl and Shelley Vaters were honored by their home church as they ended 31 years on the pastoral staff—25 years as lead pastor, six years as teaching pastor. This, and the next episode of The Church Lobby are taken from that Sunday service.This episode features an on-stage interview in which Gary Garcia (the current lead pastor), asks Karl about their time at Cornerstone. It’s a helpful look at the value of longevity for the pastor and the church and some insights into how they were able to navigate a healthy pastoral transition.Be sure to stick around after the interview for some of Karl's important takeways for people in ministry.You can watch the entire service on the CornerstoneFV YouTube channel, here.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

A little over a year ago, A.I. came into our lives in a big way. Suddenly, it seemed to be everywhere.Karl Vaters talks with Jason Moore about what A.I. is, why it came into our lives so suddenly, and what its strengths and dangers are. Then they spend the bulk of this slightly longer-than-usual episode with Jason physically walking us through using A.I. in real time, showing it to us on his computer screen.This is a great episode to watch on our YouTube Channel, but we also describe everything verbally, so you’ll get all the key information if you’re listening to audio only.Links From This Episode:This podcast episode on YouTubeBard.Google.comChat GPT: Chat.Openai.comClaud.aiMagai.coElevenlabs.ioEmail: Mail@MidnightoilProductions.comhttps://www.facebook.com/midnightoilproductions/To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Everyone has an opinion about live streaming, pro or con. As I sift through it, I only want to give a platform to the most helpful, thoughtful voices, and Tim Fox is one of them.In this podcast, we talk about the content of a Facebook post Tim wrote that challenged the reasons most churches live stream their services, while offering some thoughtful alternatives.Tim is not anti tech, but he is good at asking deeper questions about what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. He offers eight points, all of which are thoughtful, including two that really caught my attention. And all four of his alternatives are helpful.Tim is a denominational leader in Georgia who spent several years leading a small church into a healthy turnaround.Also, this episode marks a change in the way I close podcasts. From this point on, if I have closing words after the interview (and I may not always) it will be to add something new to the conversation, not just to give a summation of it. And that’s what I do at the end of this episode, so stick around for my additional thoughts.Links From This Episode:Tim's Original Facebook postTheRethinkingLeader.comglooChurchTracTextInChurchBonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel)Creating A Digital Disciple-making Strategy, with Tim FoxAsk better questions. This is the essence of Tim Fox’s approach to ministry and his advice for us. In this bonus content, Tim talks to us about how to think better about how we engage people online as a lead-in and as supplemental to our in-person service, not as an alternative to it.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.