Fame and celebrity have many downsides. But Daniel Darling brings a balanced approach to this subject by reminding us that fame is also what allows a good message to get through the clutter.In this episode, Karl talks with Dan about a Twitter thread Dan wrote expressing appreciation for the fame of Tim Keller.It was Tim Keller's platform and the celebrity status it gave him that allowed Dan and so many others to be introduced to Keller’s teachings. Dan’s perspective on the value of having a platform is an important balance to our conversations about the dangers of celebrity.Dan Darling is the director of The Land Center, a columnist for WORLD and an opinion contributor for USA Today.Links:Daniel Darling Tweet from May 20, 2023DanielDarling.comDaniel Darling's newsletterDaniel Darling booksKarl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible?That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county they were ministering in.Dave talks honestly and vulnerably about how the Holy Spirit challenged him to reach out to the misfits and the marginalized. This challenged him and the church in huge ways, including a massive drop in attendance that he had to find his way through emotionally, financially, and spiritually.Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Guest Scot McKnight discusses the dangers of a meritocracy in the church, warning signs of toxic church culture, problems with narcissistic leaders, and forming a goodness culture to resist power abuse. They explore the concept of Tove in Scripture, the impact of church growth movements on discipleship, and the dangers of Christian celebrity culture.

Bob Smietana, columnist for Religion News Service, discusses unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement with Karl Vaters. They talk about dangers of bigness, the homogenization of worship songs, and the need for diversity in church culture. Smietana's insights shed light on reshaping American churches and addressing declining youth attendance.

Winn Collier, Eugene Peterson's biographer, discusses the impact of Peterson's life and work on pastoral ministry. They delve into Peterson's critique of the church growth movement, emphasizing personal connection over bigness. Topics include the importance of pastoral presence, pushing back against size obsession, and the value of inefficient hours in a pastor's schedule.

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity.There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed.Links:Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the ChurchKarl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Author Karl Vaters discusses the unhealthy focus on church size in America, warning of the dangers it poses. He explores the origins of the church growth movement, unintended consequences, and the importance of prioritizing integrity and discipleship in church leadership.

Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends.In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advantages, including:The Happy Birthday EffectSeeing and adjusting our aesthetic cuesStone Soup planningThe value of small-church symbolsHow to ask better questions about our worship experienceAnd so much moreTeresa Stewart is the author of The Small Church Advantage: Seven Powerful Worship Practices that Work Best in Small Settings.Teresa’s approach is simple, practical, and applicable in most small-church settings. She challenges some of the ways we’ve thought about small-church worship, offers viable alternatives, then gives some wonderful step-by-step advice about how to curate worship to be more participatory without letting chaos reign.Links from this Episode:WorshipNerds.comTeresa@smallchurch.org  Bonus ContentThe Role of Conversation in Small-Church Worship, with Teresa StewartKarl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about conversation can be incorporated into the small-church experience. She encourages us to start slow and small. And she helps us curate the experience so it doesn't become a free-for-all. As Teresa wrote in her book, “Conversation in worship is not an anything-goes pursuit. It should serve and deepen the worship. Begin by curating worship in one element of your usual order.”On a very practical level, Teresa talks about the three levels of questions and conversation. Knowing these levels will help you approach this with wisdom and patience, allowing people to participate while maintaining a sense of direction.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Pastor Ian Borkent discusses pastoral burnout, the need for congregation support, avoiding bigness obsession in churches, and the five-fold ministry gifts. They touch on Bunjee Cord Leadership, asking for help, and the discomfort of not doing everything.

Our brains are the most important, but least understood part of our body. In this episode, Karl Vaters interviews Michel Hendricks about the fascinating place where faith and brain science intersect.Michel is the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation, which Karl listed as one of his top ten books in 2023.If a conversation about brain science sounds intimidating, it’s not. Both the book and this conversation put the cookies on a low shelf for all of us.Michel is the Director of Life Model Consulting at LifeModelWorks.org where he works with churches and organizations to help bring maturity and the transformation of character back into the center of Christian practice.Links:The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual StagnationRenovated: God, Dallas Willard, and the Church That TransformsThe Pandora Problem: Facing Narcissism in Leaders & OurselvesLifeModelWorks.orgBONUS MATERIALThe Importance of Joy and Gratitude in MinistryKarl Vaters talks with Michel Hendricks, the co-author (with Jim Wilder) of The Other Half of Church: Christian Community, Brain Science, and Overcoming Spiritual Stagnation about the concept that “God designed our brains to run on joy like a car runs on fuel.”The conversation includes why joy "leaks", how to refill our joy tank, and the three importance points of convergence about joy.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.