The Church Lobby

As we come to the end of our ten-part series based on De-sizing the Church, we’re highlighting portions of conversations Karl Vaters had with five church leaders from various backgrounds about their first reactions to reading the book.Drew Dyck (author and editor) talks about the dangers of Christian celebrity.Peyton Jones (author and church planter) discusses how churches operating under the church growth paradigm are more likely to be in decline than growth.Greg Atkinson (author and church consultant) highlights the importance of broadening our understanding of church size and health.Stan Givens (pastor) comments on the importance of churches working together, and the essential role of discipleship.Sean Nemecek (author and soul care coach) looks at the high rates of burnout due to chasing numbers, and digs into the revivalist history of the Great Awakenings. Links:De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What’s NextChurch PlantologyThe Weary Leaders Guide to BurnoutTo get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Author Mike Rubino talks with Karl Vaters about the dangers of idolizing church growth outcomes, the difference between trending and transforming churches, and the importance of prioritizing health over size in the church ecosystem. They highlight the need to balance metrics with spiritual growth and focus on biblical obedience instead of fixating on results.

A conversation with Matt Steen about the potential dangers of replatforming fallen pastors too quickly.This is the first of three First Reaction episodes in which I talk to people who read advance copies of De-sizing the Church to get their response to some of the issues I raise in it.As the co-founder of Chemistry Staffing, which helps churches find great staff members, and staff members find awesome churches, Matt has a unique insight about the right time to replatform pastors after they’ve failed morally.Matt and I also address the issues of Platform Addiction, the effect on victims when we replatform fallen pastors too quickly (or at all), and the important idea that restoring someone back into ministry doesn't always mean getting them back on a platform again.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Fame and celebrity have many downsides. But Daniel Darling brings a balanced approach to this subject by reminding us that fame is also what allows a good message to get through the clutter.In this episode, Karl talks with Dan about a Twitter thread Dan wrote expressing appreciation for the fame of Tim Keller.It was Tim Keller's platform and the celebrity status it gave him that allowed Dan and so many others to be introduced to Keller’s teachings. Dan’s perspective on the value of having a platform is an important balance to our conversations about the dangers of celebrity.Dan Darling is the director of The Land Center, a columnist for WORLD and an opinion contributor for USA Today.Links:Daniel Darling Tweet from May 20, 2023DanielDarling.comDaniel Darling's newsletterDaniel Darling booksKarl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible?That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county they were ministering in.Dave talks honestly and vulnerably about how the Holy Spirit challenged him to reach out to the misfits and the marginalized. This challenged him and the church in huge ways, including a massive drop in attendance that he had to find his way through emotionally, financially, and spiritually.Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Guest Scot McKnight discusses the dangers of a meritocracy in the church, warning signs of toxic church culture, problems with narcissistic leaders, and forming a goodness culture to resist power abuse. They explore the concept of Tove in Scripture, the impact of church growth movements on discipleship, and the dangers of Christian celebrity culture.

Bob Smietana, columnist for Religion News Service, discusses unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement with Karl Vaters. They talk about dangers of bigness, the homogenization of worship songs, and the need for diversity in church culture. Smietana's insights shed light on reshaping American churches and addressing declining youth attendance.

Winn Collier, Eugene Peterson's biographer, discusses the impact of Peterson's life and work on pastoral ministry. They delve into Peterson's critique of the church growth movement, emphasizing personal connection over bigness. Topics include the importance of pastoral presence, pushing back against size obsession, and the value of inefficient hours in a pastor's schedule.

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity.There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed.Links:Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the ChurchKarl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.To get Bonus Content every week, click here to become a Financial Partner, or here to subscribe to the Free Weekly Newsletter.

Author Karl Vaters discusses the unhealthy focus on church size in America, warning of the dangers it poses. He explores the origins of the church growth movement, unintended consequences, and the importance of prioritizing integrity and discipleship in church leadership.