
Fringe Legal
The Fringe Legal Podcast is a collection of conversations with legal innovators on how to put ideas into practice. Each episode is a discussion with a change-maker who shares their ideas, insights, and lessons from their journey.
Latest episodes

Jan 16, 2025 • 37min
Practice, Profit, Power: James Markham and Darren Mee of The Legal MBA
James Markham, co-author of 'The Legal MBA' with a knack for operational improvement, and Darren Mee, an expert in process strategy, discuss transforming legal education. They highlight the vital need for legal professionals to embrace broader business principles to boost efficiency in law firms. The duo shares insights on integrating legal technology effectively and the challenges firms face in tech adoption. Additionally, they introduce the Legal MBA Academy, offering workshops aimed at refining legal business skills for increased client profitability.

Sep 3, 2024 • 22min
Balancing Technology and Human Connection in Legal Services with Joey Seeber
In this episode of Fringe Legal, recorded live from ILTACON 2024 in Nashville, Tennessee, Ab sits down with JoeySeeber, CEO of Level Legal. Joey discusses the journey and growth of Level Legal over 15 years, starting during the Great Recession. The conversation delves into various aspects of building a business for longevity, maintaining a startup mindset in a small company, and delivering services in a human-centric way. Joey shares insights on their framework and principles for doing business, client feedback, handling competition, and the role of technology in enhancing efficiency. Read the episode takeaways at: https://www.fringelegal.com/balancing-technology-and-human-connection-in-legal-services-with-joey-seeber

Feb 14, 2024 • 33min
Law Firm Revenue Management with Ayora.ai - The $36 Billion Opportunity
Stefan Ciesla, Co-founder and CEO of Ayora.ai, discusses how Ayora's smart lockup assistant helps fee earners in law firms make revenue management decisions. The assistant scans a firm's data related to matters and provides recommendations on monitoring scope, estimates, budgets, resourcing, and billing. The challenge of balancing AI with human control and building trust in the recommendations is emphasized. Key takeaways: Ayora's assistant helps fee earners improve revenue management skills, prioritizes transparency and user consent, and never takes action without the attorney's knowledge.

Jan 16, 2024 • 34min
Building a tech-enabled culture in law firms
Conan Hines, Director of Legal Technology at Fried Frank, discusses the importance of building a tech-enabled culture in law firms. He emphasizes the need for trust, starting small, and balancing short-term impact with long-term goals. The role of vendors and incentives for adoption are also explored. Integrating technology training into legal training and demonstrating the value of technology are key. Having fun, stepping away, and embracing hobbies and perspectives are also highlighted as important aspects of problem-solving in a tech-enabled culture.

Oct 12, 2023 • 43min
Reinventing Associate Training with Abdi Shayesteh (AltaClaro)
Abdi Shayesteh, founder and CEO of AltaClaro, discusses reinventing legal education and training. AltaClaro uses experiential learning techniques to provide associates with hands-on practice. The podcast covers Abdi's early entrepreneurial experiences, issues with traditional law firm training, learning science principles used by AltaClaro, and training trends for law firms in 2023.

Sep 15, 2023 • 43min
Workflow Reimagined: How Generative AI Transforms Legal Operations
Stephanie Corey and Brandi Pack from UpLevel Ops discuss the transformative power of generative AI in legal operations. They explore topics such as early access to GPT-4, growing adoption of AI, the changing landscape of legal teams, GenAI as a workflow tool, and the future possibilities of AI in the legal field.

Sep 8, 2023 • 30min
Moving Past The AI Hype - A Conversation With LexisNexis' Jeff Pfeifer
Jeff Pfeiffer, Chief Product Officer at LexisNexis, discusses legal AI progress, hype versus reality, law firm adoption, and tangible benefits. Topics include navigating the AI hype cycle, enhancing legal workflows with AI, growing law firm interest, avoiding disillusionment, and real-world benefits driving adoption.

Aug 14, 2023 • 31min
Definely’s Blueprint for Disrupting Contract Workflows
In this episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswat interviews Nnamdi Emelifeonwu and Feargus MacDaeid, co-founders of legal tech startup Definely.Key Takeaways:Definely creates software plugins to simplify drafting, reviewing, and analyzing legal contracts in Microsoft Word using AI/ML.The idea originated from Feargus' need as a blind lawyer to access information in documents more easily.They validated demand with a scrappy prototype and early pilots despite its flaws.After leaving law firm jobs, their mission-driven approach focuses on access, efficiency, and transparency.Their blueprint for innovation includes launching an MVP, inclusive design thinking, gathering user feedback, and carefully leveraging AI.Maintaining ethics and reputation is central, not rushing new technology to market.When solving problems for underserved groups, solutions often benefit everyone.A framework for evaluating AI: accuracy and understanding real-world impacts.Connect with Nnamdi EmelifeonwuConnect with Feargus MacDaeidLearn more about Definely

Jul 24, 2023 • 38min
Decoding ESG: A Practical Guide for Legal Teams
ESG (environmental, social, governance) factors have become essential considerations for companies seeking to manage risk, attract investment, and operate sustainably.Yet myths and misconceptions persist around what ESG is and how best to approach it. This leads many legal teams to view ESG as an amorphous compliance exercise rather than a strategic priority.Recently on the Fringe Legal podcast, Abhijat Saraswat interviewed ESG expert Kai Gray, CEO of advisory firm Motiv, to demystify ESG and offer practical guidance for legal professionals. In this episode, learn what ESG means and how legal teams can pragmatically prioritize it. Get clarity on ESG frameworks, strategic rollout, and avoiding common pitfalls.

Jul 14, 2023 • 32min
Why "New and Shiny" Tech Often Flops at Law Firms with India Preston
Summary:In this insightful episode of Fringe Legal, host Abhijat Saraswat has an in-depth discussion with India Preston, Director of Platform Solutions at legal tech startup Lupl. They delve into India's winding journey into legal project management, tactical approaches to driving adoption, and how to effectively challenge established processes.India shares learnings and advice drawn from her diverse experiences - from helping build out Linklaters' LPM function from the ground up to make the leap to an early-stage legal tech startup. She provides a rare longitudinal view of how legal project management has evolved from a little-known concept in 2013 to a widely recognized, if still poorly understood, discipline today.Key Takeaways:While LPM has gone from barely existing in 2013 to being commonly known today, there is still substantial room for education on how to apply it effectively. LPM principles empower lawyers to run matters like projects, but specialized LPM roles create incremental value on complex matters.Project management qualifications alone don't cut it for legal project managers to be successful. Soft skills to integrate smoothly with lawyers and legal teams are just as important, if not more so. Technical skills can be learned on the job.Identifying concrete problems that need solving is absolutely crucial before adopting any new solution or technology. Without an anchor in specific pain points, adoption will struggle no matter how exciting the new solution seems at first glance.Rollouts of new technology or processes should start small and be targeted before expanding more widely across a firm. The tendency may be to go big with a splashy firmwide launch, but this rarely succeeds.Resources like use case guides, template libraries, and informal user communities help drive adoption by making the novel feel familiar. However, these need to be grounded in solving real firm problems.Process mapping workshops - with the help of an unbiased external facilitator - can challenge status quo thinking and processes in extremely constructive ways. Just asking "why" repeatedly can unearth entrenched inefficiencies.Actionable Takeaway: Start Small Before Going WideExplore in detail at Fringe Legal.
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