80,000 Hours Podcast

Allan Dafoe, Director of Frontier Safety and Governance at Google DeepMind, dives into the unstoppable growth of technology, illustrating how societies that adopt new capabilities often outpace those that resist. He discusses the historical context of Japan's Meiji Restoration as a case study of technological competition. Dafoe highlights the importance of steering AI development responsibly, addressing safety challenges, and fostering cooperation among AI systems. He emphasizes the balance between AI innovation and necessary governance to prevent potential risks, urging collective accountability.

In this discussion, Rose Chan Loui, the founding executive director of UCLA Law’s Lowell Milken Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofits, dives into Elon Musk's audacious $97.4 billion bid for OpenAI. She explains the legal and ethical challenges facing OpenAI's nonprofit board amidst this pressure. The conversation highlights the complexities of balancing charitable missions with investor interests, the implications of nonprofit-to-profit transitions, and the broader societal responsibilities tied to artificial intelligence development.

Will LLMs soon be made into autonomous agents? Will they lead to job losses? Is AI misinformation overblown? Will it prove easy or hard to create AGI? And how likely is it that it will feel like something to be a superhuman AGI?With AGI back in the headlines, we bring you 15 opinionated highlights from the show addressing those and other questions, intermixed with opinions from hosts Luisa Rodriguez and Rob Wiblin recorded back in 2023.Check out the full transcript on the 80,000 Hours website.You can decide whether the views we expressed (and those from guests) then have held up these last two busy years. You’ll hear:Ajeya Cotra on overrated AGI worriesHolden Karnofsky on the dangers of aligned AI, why unaligned AI might not kill us, and the power that comes from just making models biggerIan Morris on why the future must be radically different from the presentNick Joseph on whether his companies internal safety policies are enoughRichard Ngo on what everyone gets wrong about how ML models workTom Davidson on why he believes crazy-sounding explosive growth stories… and Michael Webb on why he doesn’tCarl Shulman on why you’ll prefer robot nannies over human onesZvi Mowshowitz on why he’s against working at AI companies except in some safety rolesHugo Mercier on why even superhuman AGI won’t be that persuasiveRob Long on the case for and against digital sentienceAnil Seth on why he thinks consciousness is probably biologicalLewis Bollard on whether AI advances will help or hurt nonhuman animalsRohin Shah on whether humanity’s work ends at the point it creates AGIAnd of course, Rob and Luisa also regularly chime in on what they agree and disagree with.Chapters:Cold open (00:00:00)Rob's intro (00:00:58)Rob & Luisa: Bowerbirds compiling the AI story (00:03:28)Ajeya Cotra on the misalignment stories she doesn’t buy (00:09:16)Rob & Luisa: Agentic AI and designing machine people (00:24:06)Holden Karnofsky on the dangers of even aligned AI, and how we probably won’t all die from misaligned AI (00:39:20)Ian Morris on why we won’t end up living like The Jetsons (00:47:03)Rob & Luisa: It’s not hard for nonexperts to understand we’re playing with fire here (00:52:21)Nick Joseph on whether AI companies’ internal safety policies will be enough (00:55:43)Richard Ngo on the most important misconception in how ML models work (01:03:10)Rob & Luisa: Issues Rob is less worried about now (01:07:22)Tom Davidson on why he buys the explosive economic growth story, despite it sounding totally crazy (01:14:08)Michael Webb on why he’s sceptical about explosive economic growth (01:20:50)Carl Shulman on why people will prefer robot nannies over humans (01:28:25)Rob & Luisa: Should we expect AI-related job loss? (01:36:19)Zvi Mowshowitz on why he thinks it’s a bad idea to work on improving capabilities at cutting-edge AI companies (01:40:06)Holden Karnofsky on the power that comes from just making models bigger (01:45:21)Rob & Luisa: Are risks of AI-related misinformation overblown? (01:49:49)Hugo Mercier on how AI won’t cause misinformation pandemonium (01:58:29)Rob & Luisa: How hard will it actually be to create intelligence? (02:09:08)Robert Long on whether digital sentience is possible (02:15:09)Anil Seth on why he believes in the biological basis of consciousness (02:27:21)Lewis Bollard on whether AI will be good or bad for animal welfare (02:40:52)Rob & Luisa: The most interesting new argument Rob’s heard this year (02:50:37)Rohin Shah on whether AGI will be the last thing humanity ever does (02:57:35)Rob's outro (03:11:02)Audio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic ArmstrongTranscriptions and additional content editing: Katy Moore

Karen Levy, a seasoned expert in global health and development, discusses the pitfalls of overly fashionable concepts like 'sustainability' and 'holistic approaches' in development projects. She critiques the misguided focus on these terms, arguing that they can lead to ineffective solutions. Levy highlights the successful scaling of deworming initiatives, sharing insights on the challenges faced in implementation and funding. Through her experience with community engagement in Kenya, she emphasizes the need for realistic, evidence-based approaches to bring about meaningful change.

The podcast dives into the intriguing debate over the moral status of AI and whether digital minds can truly experience sentience. It contrasts perspectives from experts addressing the ethical implications of creating conscious AI. The discussion raises essential questions about responsibility towards potential AI welfare and the risks of misunderstanding their capacities. The need for research into assessing AI's moral status emerges as a critical theme, highlighting both the potential risks and benefits of advancing AI technology.

Nova DasSarma, a computer scientist at Anthropic and co-founder of HofVarpNear Studios, dives into the critical realm of information security in AI. She discusses the immense financial stakes in AI development and the vulnerabilities inherent in training models. The conversation touches on recent high-profile breaches, like Nvidia's, and the significant security challenges posed by advanced technologies. DasSarma emphasizes the importance of collaboration in improving security protocols and ensuring safe AI alignment amid evolving threats.

Sharon Hewitt Rawlette, a philosopher and author, explores the intrinsic values of pleasure and pain. She argues that positive feelings are fundamentally valuable, while suffering holds negative intrinsic worth. The conversation dives into the historical evolution of hedonism, the complexities of moral truths, and the balance between intrinsic and instrumental values. Rawlette also examines how personal experiences shape morality and decision-making, questioning the role of genuine connections beyond mere emotional benefits.

Ian Morris, a bestselling historian and Willard Professor of Classics at Stanford University, dives deep into the evolution of human values over millennia. He discusses how moral landscapes have transformed from slavery being deemed natural to modern views on gender and equality. The conversation covers the interplay of warfare, energy sources, and social dynamics in shaping cultural norms. Morris argues for a provocative view that society evolves towards organizational systems that enhance survival and efficiency, revealing the fascinating parallels between past and present.

Bear Braumoeller, a noted political science professor, delves into the contentious debate surrounding the decline of war. He argues against the popular notion that warfare is decreasing, citing compelling data and historical analysis. The conversation spans the complexities of modern warfare, the paradox of Enlightenment ideals fueling conflict, and the role of religion in warfare. Braumoeller emphasizes the need for careful interpretation of conflict data and highlights geopolitical tensions, particularly between the US and China, as pressing indicators of potential future conflicts.

"A shameless recycling of existing content to drive additional audience engagement on the cheap… or the single best, most valuable, and most insight-dense episode we put out in the entire year, depending on how you want to look at it." — Rob WiblinIt’s that magical time of year once again — highlightapalooza! Stick around for one top bit from each episode, including:How to use the microphone on someone’s mobile phone to figure out what password they’re typing into their laptopWhy mercilessly driving the New World screwworm to extinction could be the most compassionate thing humanity has ever doneWhy evolutionary psychology doesn’t support a cynical view of human nature but actually explains why so many of us are intensely sensitive to the harms we cause to othersHow superforecasters and domain experts seem to disagree so much about AI risk, but when you zoom in it’s mostly a disagreement about timingWhy the sceptics are wrong and you will want to use robot nannies to take care of your kids — and also why despite having big worries about the development of AGI, Carl Shulman is strongly against efforts to pause AI research todayHow much of the gender pay gap is due to direct pay discrimination vs other factorsHow cleaner wrasse fish blow the mirror test out of the waterWhy effective altruism may be too big a tent to work wellHow we could best motivate pharma companies to test existing drugs to see if they help cure other diseases — something they currently have no reason to bother with…as well as 27 other top observations and arguments from the past year of the show.Check out the full transcript and episode links on the 80,000 Hours website.Remember that all of these clips come from the 20-minute highlight reels we make for every episode, which are released on our sister feed, 80k After Hours. So if you’re struggling to keep up with our regularly scheduled entertainment, you can still get the best parts of our conversations there.It has been a hell of a year, and we can only imagine next year is going to be even weirder — but Luisa and Rob will be here to keep you company as Earth hurtles through the galaxy to a fate as yet unknown.Enjoy, and look forward to speaking with you in 2025!Chapters:Rob's intro (00:00:00)Randy Nesse on the origins of morality and the problem of simplistic selfish-gene thinking (00:02:11)Hugo Mercier on the evolutionary argument against humans being gullible (00:07:17)Meghan Barrett on the likelihood of insect sentience (00:11:26)Sébastien Moro on the mirror test triumph of cleaner wrasses (00:14:47)Sella Nevo on side-channel attacks (00:19:32)Zvi Mowshowitz on AI sleeper agents (00:22:59)Zach Weinersmith on why space settlement (probably) won't make us rich (00:29:11)Rachel Glennerster on pull mechanisms to incentivise repurposing of generic drugs (00:35:23)Emily Oster on the impact of kids on women's careers (00:40:29)Carl Shulman on robot nannies (00:45:19)Nathan Labenz on kids and artificial friends (00:50:12)Nathan Calvin on why it's not too early for AI policies (00:54:13)Rose Chan Loui on how control of OpenAI is independently incredibly valuable and requires compensation (00:58:08)Nick Joseph on why he’s a big fan of the responsible scaling policy approach (01:03:11)Sihao Huang on how the US and UK might coordinate with China (01:06:09)Nathan Labenz on better transparency about predicted capabilities (01:10:18)Ezra Karger on what explains forecasters’ disagreements about AI risks (01:15:22)Carl Shulman on why he doesn't support enforced pauses on AI research (01:18:58)Matt Clancy on the omnipresent frictions that might prevent explosive economic growth (01:25:24)Vitalik Buterin on defensive acceleration (01:29:43)Annie Jacobsen on the war games that suggest escalation is inevitable (01:34:59)Nate Silver on whether effective altruism is too big to succeed (01:38:42)Kevin Esvelt on why killing every screwworm would be the best thing humanity ever did (01:42:27)Lewis Bollard on how factory farming is philosophically indefensible (01:46:28)Bob Fischer on how to think about moral weights if you're not a hedonist (01:49:27)Elizabeth Cox on the empirical evidence of the impact of storytelling (01:57:43)Anil Seth on how our brain interprets reality (02:01:03)Eric Schwitzgebel on whether consciousness can be nested (02:04:53)Jonathan Birch on our overconfidence around disorders of consciousness (02:10:23)Peter Godfrey-Smith on uploads of ourselves (02:14:34)Laura Deming on surprising things that make mice live longer (02:21:17)Venki Ramakrishnan on freezing cells, organs, and bodies (02:24:46)Ken Goldberg on why low fault tolerance makes some skills extra hard to automate in robots (02:29:12)Sarah Eustis-Guthrie on the ups and downs of founding an organisation (02:34:04)Dean Spears on the cost effectiveness of kangaroo mother care (02:38:26)Cameron Meyer Shorb on vaccines for wild animals (02:42:53)Spencer Greenberg on personal principles (02:46:08)Producing and editing: Keiran HarrisAudio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic ArmstrongVideo editing: Simon MonsourTranscriptions: Katy Moore