Ditching Hourly

Jane Portman joins me to talk about her new book, Your Productized Consulting Guide. Links Jane's book - Your Productized Consulting Guide Jane's SaaS - UserList.io Jane's home site 20% Off Ditching Hourly listeners can use coupon code DH20 for 20% any package of Jane's book. Thanks Jane! ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Blair Enns delivers an impromptu master class on the strategies and tactics of value pricing creative work.Blair's BioBlair Enns is a 25-year veteran of the business side of the creative professions. In 2002, he launched Win Without Pitching, which has worked with thousands of creative professionals in numerous countries through direct engagements, seminars, workshops & webcasts. Blair is the author of "The Win Without Pitching Manifesto" and the forthcoming "Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour"LinksPricing CreativityWin Without Pitching2Bobs PodcastBlair on TwitterBlair on LinkedInImplementing Value Pricing: A Radical Business Model for Professional FirmsJonathan's notes on "Pricing With Confidence" by Reed Holden"The Big Lie of Strategic Planning" in HBRTranscriptJonathan:Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. On today's show I'm joined by Blair Enns. Blair is a 25 year veteran of the business side of the creative professions. In 2002, he launched Win Without Pitching which has worked with thousands of creative professionals in numerous countries through direct engagements, seminars, workshops and webcasts. Blair's the author of the Win Without Pitching Manifesto and the forthcoming Pricing Creativity: A Guide to Profit Beyond the Billable Hour. Without further ado, here's my interview with Blair [00:00:30] Enns, enjoy. Blair, welcome to the show.Blair:Thank you Jonathan, my pleasure to be here.Jonathan:I am super excited to talk with you today especially about your new book Pricing Creativity. Could you start off by giving listeners a little bit of context about what the book is meant to do for its readers, who's targeted at, what led you to write it just sort of the big picture.Blair:Yeah so my businesses is Win Without Pitching, it's a sales training for creative professionals. We work with [00:01:00] independent, typically owners of independent creative firms of various types usually design or advertising based but often going into the kind of adjacent markets and their teams and we help them get better at selling what it is that they do and you know there's some right there in the name Win Without Pitching there are some ideas around the conventions that we help to challenge. Pricing Creativity is meant to be a [00:01:30] desk reference ... an enjoyable readable reference manual for anybody in the creative professions who sets, negotiates or delivers price.Jonathan:Excellent. Well that's right up our alley here. We have had similar paths over the years, we've read a lot of the same people, I know Alan Watts is big on your list, Ron Baker, many many others [00:02:00] I think we probably have the same set of 20 pricing books on our bookshelves.Blair:Yeah, probably.Jonathan:And also we both have spent at least a decade I think you probably have at least two decades of actually implementing this stuff or experience in a field that you're now implementing these theories in, actually converting them into practice so it's going to be ... it sort of comes as no surprise to me that we have lots and lots and lots of kind of like shared ... I don't want to say revelations [00:02:30] but it just like, wow this stuff does work, it is tricky to implement and it takes some doing, there's a perhaps more art than science at some points but it definitely works and largely in my case I'm super anti hourly billing in case you couldn't tell by the [inaudible 00:02:51] portal, but I know that you do talk about some types of hourly and [00:03:00] for your target market, for people who are making payroll and they've got a bunch of bodies that they have a lot of capacity I should say, it does make sense to perhaps sell blocks of time.Kind of want to talk about that at some point. Maybe we don't have to dwell into that now but you have this great framework called the four phases of client engagement that talks about this sort of decreasing value curve as you come down [00:03:30] from the discovery phase or I think you call a diagnostic phase and the and that moves into recommendations. Maybe you could talk about the four phases just briefly because people, listeners are familiar with this concept I've talked about you before.Blair:The four phases in any engagement of any expertise space business would be diagnose, where you come to understand the client situation, prescribe, where you prescribe a therapy if we wanted to use continue with the medical analogy, [00:04:00] the deliverables of the diagnose phase would be diagnostic findings, the deliverables at the prescribe phase would be a strategy and then you have what I call the apply phase or the initial application of therapy. Then you have ongoing reapplication of therapy so diagnose, prescribe, apply, reapply, and the highest value offering that you have is first and foremost your ability to accurately diagnose the client's challenges, [00:04:30] assess the scene as it were and from there if you're not able to diagnose properly then it doesn't matter how good your prescription is if it's not targeted to the challenge that's really there.Then when you get into reapplication, excuse me you get into the fourth phase reapplication, that's the highly commoditized stuff of redoing things over and over again where you're adding very little value. It's mostly you're getting paid for things that you do with your hands and your [00:05:00] feet mostly your hands a little bit of your brain still but I do like to break those four phases of the engagement into two separate categories. I refer to the first two diagnose and prescribe as the thinking stages or phases and then the latter to apply and reapply are the doing phases so your point is the highest value offering that you have is in the ... I call them stages, the thinking stages and then once you get into doing that tends to [00:05:30] be more commoditized.I think from time to time it makes sense to package up a whole lot of that doing. Sometimes it does make sense to sell that as units of time. It really depends on the business, it really depends on how you sold the previous stages of the engagement, it depends on how your business is set up, how your clients businesses are set up, so I really do like the idealism of value based pricing. Ron Baker who I'm sure we're going to talk about [00:06:00] has been a tremendous influence on my thinking on value based pricing and he read an advance copy of the book as did you and he had some really good feedback for me and one of his points of feedback where I had to say, "Well I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one," is he's just adamant that at no point should you ever sell time.I like the idealism of that I think practically there are times when it makes sense to sell time and one of those times might be when [00:06:30] you're selling that fourth phase, the ongoing reapplication work and it's just a whole bunch of busywork. It might make sense to sell that in units of time.Jonathan:I think you ... I see this as well, I tend to tackle it in a little bit different a way but again I think this is because of different audiences. There ...

Corey Quinn is a consultant who helps companies fix their horrifying AWS bills. In this episode, Corey explains how he monetized his technical expertise by selling sponsorships for his weekly mailing list. Links Last Week in AWS Quinn Advisory Group Corey's Twitter Corey's sponsorship page ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Former software consultant Brian Dunning talks about transitioning from hourly billing for dev work to donation supported content production. Description My guest today is Brian Dunning. Brian is an old friend who I met back when we were both building FileMaker solutions for clients who we billed on an hourly basis. Over the years, Brian has transitioned away from trading time for money to the most purely value-based model I've ever encountered: he now runs a donation supported non-profit called Skeptoid Media. As a former dev, I wanted to have Brian to hopefully inspire you to consider packaging up and selling your expertise in an novel way. Enjoy... Links Skeptoid podcast Brian's personal site Brian on Twitter Closing The next time someone asks you for your hourly rate, this is what you should say: "I don't have one." To learn what to say next, visit http://valuepricingbootcamp.com to signup for my free email course. Again, that url is: http://valuepricingbootcamp.com ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Shopify guru and former Wordpress developer Kurt Elster explains how he monetized his technical expertise by selling sponsorships for his podcast. Links Kurt's press page Kurt's Twitter Kurt's sponsorship page ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Dr. Sherry Walling, a licensed clinical psychologist and expert in promoting well-being among high-performing professionals, discusses the unique anxieties entrepreneurs face. She shares insights on the emotional challenges of transitioning from employment to running a business, emphasizing the need for a shift in perspective. Effective communication and empathy are highlighted as vital in client relationships. Sherry also addresses the importance of community and support in remote work, while providing strategies to prevent burnout and manage stress.

Money is worthless if you can't exchange it for something you want. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Push past your clients self-diagnosis to unlock more valuable outcomes. ----Do you have questions about how to improve your business? Things like:Value pricing your work instead of billing for your time?Positioning yourself as the go-to person in your space?Productizing your services so you never have to have another awkward sales call or spend hours writing another custom proposal?Book a one-on-one coaching call with me and get answers to these questions and others in the time it takes to get ready for work in the morning.Best of all, you're covered by my 100% satisfaction guarantee. If at the end of the call, you don't feel like it was worth it, just say the word, and I'll refund your purchase in full.To book your one-on-one coaching call, go to: https://jonathanstark.com/callI hope to see you there!

Explore the intriguing concept of the subjective value of money through a relatable story about a family outing. Witness the stark contrast between perceptions of worth as they tackle a claw machine challenge. Discover how personal experiences shape our understanding of services and pricing. The discussion also dives into strategies for more effective business practices, like value pricing and productizing services, ensuring you feel valued in your work.

Jason Swett shares lessons he’s learned in the process of ditching hourly. Guest Bio Jason Swett is a web developer from Sand Lake, Michigan, who has been freelancing since 2011. Jason has historically billed by the hour but in the last couple years he has figured out how to start transitioning into value-based pricing." Links Million Dollar Consulting by Alan Weiss Better Training Exercises by Reuven Lerner Jason’s Book Jason’s Consultancy Transcript Jonathan Stark: Hello and welcome to Ditching Hourly. I'm Jonathan Stark. Today I'm joined by a guest Jason Swett. Jason is a web developer from Sand Lake Michigan, who's been freelancing since 2011. He has historically billed by the hour but in the last couple of years he has figured out how to start transitioning into value-based pricing. Jason welcome to show. Jason Swett: Thank you. Jonathan Stark: Can you tell folks a little about yourself, what you do? Jason Swett: Sure. I'm a software developer, I have been for most of the last 15 years. I got started writing code for money in about 2000. My first job was actually working for my dad. We did that for a little bit and then got my serious start in 2005, doing PHP stuff, did that for a while and switched to Rails and been doing that ever since. The vast majority of that time has been either regular employment or hourly contracting but then in recent months, recent years, I've been transitioning into other better types of billing, which I think is what we're going to talk a little bit today. Jonathan Stark: That would be great. We've exchanged a few emails leading up to this and you sound like a really big win that you had this year in the training space, which I'd love to talk about. But in the pre show you also mentioned something about ... We were talking about how people will tend to call themselves consultants when really they are just freelancers or contractors and that there is a distinction there. It's not like you can just say, "I'm a consultant now." Even though I think it's good to push in that direction, to move yourself to be perceived or fulfill the role of a consultant because it's higher value. Can you talk a little bit about what you see as the distinction between contracting and consulting. Jason Swett: It's a great question. Freelancing 101 is like don't call yourself a freelancer because when you use that word and then prospects or clients hear that, there's something about it that conveys low value. Like you are a tool that's to be used. They tell you what to do, they make the plans and they tell you to implement the plans. So it's much better if you're perceived as a consultant. And the differences there to me is that rather than being an implementer, you're somebody who helps formulate the plans and then somebody else does the implementation. So that's a much better term to use. Consulting is way better than freelancer. But I think a lot of people who call themselves a consultant would really, 100% of their work is contracting. So the difference between consulting and contracting is again, with contracting you're an implementer. Somebody else is coming up with the plans, they have an understanding of what the reasons are behind what they're doing and they made all the decisions and now it's your job to just do what you're told. Whereas when you're a consultant, you're more being paid ... Let me put it this way. A contractor, they pay you so they can tell you what to do. When you're consulting, they pay you so you can tell them what to do. Jonathan Stark: Absolutely and it's not just as simple as labeling yourself that, one or the other because in my experience people who are used to being a freelancer, or a contractor whatever you want to call it, have their entire business and mentality organized in a way that optimizes for being told what to do and for doing things like nailing down really specific scope of work so that they can turn around and blame the client if it goes over budget, while I just did what you told me to do. It's not as simple as just saying, "I'm going to call myself a consultant." You actually have to make that shift. A big difference for me I think, when you start to feel yourself or if you're a freelancer now or you call yourself a freelancer or a contractor now, on a relatively, regular basis, you push back on clients and say, "Now I can't let you do that. That is a major mistake." The way a doctor would if you said, "Hey, take out my appendix." And they're like, "Your appendix isn't the problem." The doctor is not going to take out your appendix just 'cause you told them to. When you start behaving like that, then it's safe to start calling yourself a consultant, because you're right. The client is looking for someone who has expertise in the space, that they respect, they trust the consultant, they value that honesty and expertise. Jason Swett: I don't think it's a binary thing like you kind of alluded to. Just because you're a contractor, doesn't mean you're not going to be doing consulting type stuff some of the time, hopefully you are. Just because they're paying you to tell you what to do doesn't mean that you can't offer opinions and advice and stuff like that. Jonathan Stark: It's a good sign when you find yourself doing more of that. Some people listening to this will recognize that they do a lot of that at the beginning of an implementation, they don't charge for it, or they just charge for the hour by it or it's perhaps even part of the scoping of the work and may not even be paid to get the proposal together for the estimate. So if you recognize that you're doing that kind of stuff, then you're a candidate for perhaps orienting your business a little bit more around that, more high value, those more high value activities and less around the labor. Jason Swett: And just this is kind of a quick side note. I've found that it can be very difficult to start a relationship in a contracting kind of arrangement and try to move it more toward a consulting type arrangement 'cause you've already sent them the signal that you're a pair of hands. So it's very hard to shake that off once you've sent them that signal. It's much easier to start the relationship off under the understanding that they're paying you for advice and guidance and stuff like that, rather than try to retroactively become that person. Jonathan Stark: It's like trying to get out of the friend zone. Jason Swett: Exactly. Jonathan Stark: It's hard. I see it often that it's probably no more difficult to attract new fresh clients for this new fresh position or maybe a new product or service that you're going to orient around, a more prescriptive or diagnostic offering than it is to try and change the way past clients view you. It can be very tricky. I've seen people do it, but they're usually people who are more mature business wise and have really been sort of straddling the consulting/contractor world with their clients. Jason Swett: Here's another really significant thing about that, is there's one thing, which I mentioned which is the perception thing. At the beginning of the relationship, they have a certain perception of who you are and what they're paying you for. The other thing is that, at least I have found, the kinds of buyers who buy contracting work and the kinds of buyers who buy consulting work, don't have a heck of a lot of overlap. Like for...