Overtired

TW: Suicidal Ideation Taylor Swift is Time’s Person of the Year, mostly thanks to our tireless promotion at Overtired. Brett’s having dark thoughts and the gang helps him clarify a few things. Sponsor Aroundsquare Find your next beautiful, unusual, functional item for the mind and body at Aroundsquare. Use the code OVERTIRED at checkout for 15% off. Show Links 211 988 The forgotten employee T Swift Time Profile Brett’s Favorites 2023 Artifact Folx Download Station Readwise Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Person of the What? [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome to Overtired. I’m here with Christina Warren and Jeff Severins Gunsel. Uh, trigger warning at the top of the show. Um, we may be discussing some themes of suicidal ideation. Uh, we’ll see how that goes, but just, uh, just be warned if that is a trigger for you. Uh, maybe skip this one or fast forward to the next chapter. [00:00:28] Brett: We’ll see. How are you guys doing? Better than you, obviously. [00:00:33] Christina: I was to say, I well, I was doing okay. And then heard, uh, heard that. No. Um, I mean, I’m fine, but I’m, I’m more interested in how you’re doing. [00:00:46] Jeff: Yeah, I feel like, uh, let’s, let’s, let’s go. [00:00:49] Brett: Get that, [00:00:50] Jeff: Hi, Brett. Hi, Christina. [00:00:52] Mental Health Corner (TW: Suicidal Thoughts) [00:00:52] Brett: Let’s get that off the plate at the top. So I have been going through. Some dark, uh, dark [00:01:00] thinking. And it’s not all the time. It’s, uh, especially evenings. I just, I start, I’m not planning suicide. I’m not thinking about what I would do or how I would do it or anything like that. I’m just thinking how much I would like to not be here. [00:01:18] Brett: And, um, it’s not at the crisis level where I want to call a hotline, which I have done. Um, I’ve done the hotlines and, uh, anyone in Minnesota, 2 1 1 is a great resource. Uh, and Nationwide, 9 8 8 is a great resource, but, um, like I’m not It’s not at a crisis point where I’m like, if I don’t talk to someone, I’m going to hurt myself. [00:01:43] Brett: Um, I’m not hurting myself, but the thoughts get very dark and they scare me. And I don’t like to tell anybody about them because people aren’t equipped to deal with that kind of, my partner isn’t equipped to deal with those [00:02:00] feelings. Um, they’re very scary when you hear someone close to you, or even tangentially. [00:02:06] Brett: Like for me, when I, I was watching Welcome to Wrexham last night and I had been having a pretty good night. And then this girl that was kind of a main character in that episode, uh, talked about how her father had committed suicide and they were showing pictures of like him being happy and like a loving father. [00:02:27] Brett: And just like, it hit me like how dark, how people can be so outwardly. affable, and be so hurting inside. And just hearing about other people and, and suicidal ideation and suicide itself, uh, it, it hits me in the gut. Like, I cry just like, I sob when I hear that stuff. Um, it feels, it feels a little too close to home for me. [00:02:57] Brett: So, so that’s my mental health [00:03:00] check in. How are you guys doing? [00:03:03] Christina: I’m really, really sad to, I mean, thank you for sharing that. I’m, I’m really, I, I completely understand the hesitancy in sharing this stuff because you’re right. People don’t know how to deal with it. And my experience is it’s, it’s one of two responses. It’s either people who are really disturbed and really upset by it, or, uh, what I would find is arguably even the worst response, which is they’re not concerned at all. [00:03:26] Christina: They just assume that you’re full of shit and, and that, that you’re just saying stuff and that they [00:03:31] Brett: Yeah, that, that would be awful. I, I haven’t run into that. Everyone who I have talked to takes it very seriously. [00:03:38] Christina: um, with all respect, you’re a guy and, that, and, and that, that’s a, it’s a, it’s a massively, massively. Massively gendered thing. Um, uh, as, as mental health is in general. [00:03:51] Christina: Um, you know, like, like women are, have been historically treated so differently when it comes to our mental health than men have. Like, we were the ones who were sent to sanitariums. [00:04:00] We were the ones who, you know, are called hysterical. Like it’s, it’s, it’s a whole thing. So. I am glad people are taking it seriously. [00:04:08] Christina: Um, I makes me think, you know, you, you haven’t had, manic episodes in a while, right? But this definitely feels like this is like a depressive episode for, right. And, and as somebody who has been low key depressed for a couple of years and was in a really bad place, Earlier this year, um, you know, and I’m, I’m doing better now. [00:04:30] Christina: Like I, I can completely relate to, to what you’re saying. Um, I hope that your, your doctor, you know, you can look at like med opportunities and other things to try to find the right balance. [00:04:44] Brett: it’s weird Like I was I don’t have a relationship with my psychiatrist where I feel super Like I can tell her I’m doing okay. Like I I am by all measures like[00:05:00] [00:05:00] Christina: But you’re not [00:05:02] Brett: I know, I know, [00:05:03] Christina: that this, th th this is the trap though. This is the trap. We’re doing okay. I’m not actually gonna do anything. I just sometimes think about it, and I just would maybe rather not exist. I’m not planning anything. I’m not actually going to, you know, take those steps. It’s fine. It’s not fine. [00:05:19] Christina: Like that’s, that’s depression and that that needs to be worked on. And, and I, I get not having a relationship, maybe having that trust level, [00:05:26] Brett: so I did have, I did have plans to talk to my therapist very seriously about it very openly. Um, like I am, I have developed, my relationship with her is very open and honest and I will tell her like exactly how much I drink. I will tell her exactly like how my relationship with Elle is going and And I had every intention of talking to her about this, but she got sick this week and cancelled, so I have to wait a week, which is, it’s fine, I’ll, I’ll make it, but, [00:06:00] um, she’s, she, more her than my psychiatrist, which, she doesn’t prescribe my meds, um, and the, the, the shitty thing about being bipolar is It’s hard to treat bipolar depression because every psychiatrist is worried that they’re going to make you manic by giving you antidepressants. [00:06:21] Jeff: worse, they’re not worried. [00:06:23] Christina: Right. Right. But, but in this case, I mean, I do, like talking to your therapist is great and I completely understand the, um, hesitancy of talking to, um, your psychiatrist. But if this is something like in most cases, at least in my experience, this isn’t something that it doesn’t just go away. Um, and, and given your bipolar and given like the, Other like history of, of stuff you’ve had, I would be concerned, you know, about like, is this a metalignment thing? [00:06:53] Christina: So even though I completely understand not necessarily wanting to, to talk about this stuff, I do [00:07:00] also, I encourage you to talk to your psychiatrist. Um, because I, I think that, I think you have to, if, if, if you want to, you know, treat this the best way that you can. [00:07:11] Brett: Yeah, I find myself trying to be so upbeat when I talk to her because I don’t want her to fuck with like, what is working. Um, [00:07:19] Christina: and I, and I get it. Um, I, I completely, I, I, this year I get it more than anything. But, I also, like, is it really working? That would be the question I would ask. Um, you know what I mean? Like, like, cause, cause that, that’s, that’s the thing. Like, we can all be in our places. And, and this is why I think, like, depression is so fucking insidious. [00:07:40] Christina: Is that We will convince ourselves, we’ll go through so many mental gymnastics to convince ourselves that we’re not depressed and that things aren’t that bad and that everything’s okay. And, and we go out of our way to hide things. And that is why, to your point, why there are people who will look on the outside like they just have. [00:07:58] Christina: everything going for them and just have [00:08:00] the most awful personalities and are in a lot of pain and That is not an accident In my opinion, I think that most most of us who are depressed like you’re a very good liar. You’re a very good actor And, um, it, and part of that is because you feel a sense of shame around being depressed. [00:08:19] Christina: You feel a sense of obligation to not let people know you’re depressed. You feel a sense of just general, like, embarrassment. And then also there’s this aspect of, Oh, well, if I just fake it, it’ll get better. And, and there’s a certain truth to You know, how you act and how you put yourself out can have a real impact on your mental health and your energy and whatnot. [00:08:38] Christina: Like it certainly is better to be out with people, in my opinion, and to do exercise and do other stuff that can all genuinely have real, um, impact on, on your endorphins and on your serotonin levels, but it’s not enough to get you out of like a dark place. And, and so, um, we, we delude ourselves into thinking things aren’t that bad. [00:08:59] Christina: [00:09:00] Um, and then. If it goes on too long, it is that bad. So [00:09:05] Brett: have, I do have one friend who is also very open about her mental health. Um, and she suffers from extreme anxiety and depression and, um, and suicidal ideation, and I have been able to, um, be completely open with her and we can tell each other, you know, what you’re feeling isn’t. Real. Like, it’s real to you, but, but people do actually want you around and your life is actually important and we can, like, just basic affirmations. [00:09:40] Brett: Um, and that has been really good for me. We have her over to the house once in a while and just have a fun evening, but then our Facebook messages are where, like, we can kind of confide our darker thoughts in each other and, and support each other. And she’s been really good for me. [00:09:58] Christina: that’s really good. And I’m glad you have, you have a [00:10:00] person, um, like that. Um, you can talk to that openly. Um, cause I think it’s really important. And it’s rare, like even people who like, again, as you said, like people who. People in your life, your partners, family members, whatnot. The level of understanding is different. [00:10:15] Christina: Some people will take it very seriously. Some people won’t. And then there is a, there’s also kind of the fear which is like, okay, is someone going to take this to the level that I don’t need to take this to? Because like you said, you’re not calling 2 1 1. You’re not calling or 9 8 8 or whatever the, the number is. [00:10:29] Christina: Like you’re not at that point. It’s not at a crisis point. It’s just kind of a low level, you know, like Always I’m putting words in your mouth now, but but at least my experience It’s [00:10:39] Brett: correct so far. [00:10:40] Christina: it’s like it’s like a low level like always on kind of like malaise kind of undercurrent thing where when especially when you’re alone You have these intrusive thoughts that you can’t turn off that again It’s not to a point where you’re going to be, you know doing something to harm yourself, but you do have kind of this You know, like thought like, what if I just didn’t wake [00:11:00] up? [00:11:00] Christina: What if I just wasn’t here? You know, how much easier would things be if I didn’t have to do any of this? And, um, and then that’s, I’m really sorry you’re going through this. And again, I really encourage you, even though it’s difficult to talk to your doctor because Again, like, and I, I say this with full empathy because it’s what I’ve been dealing with for the last six months, but you think your med situation is okay. [00:11:32] Christina: It’s not if, if you’re still going through this. So I totally get wanting to salvage what’s working, but also like do some deep thinking about is it really working? Right. Because clearly what. You’ve been on has done a great job in stopping your every three week manic episodes. But it might have, you know, gone too far in the other direction and that that that’s that’s not livable either and in any I don’t know your psychiatrist [00:12:00] I know there are plenty of terrible psychiatrists out there. [00:12:03] Christina: I cannot imagine a psychiatrist who would be like, Oh yeah, we would much rather have someone be low key suicidal than, than, than have a manic episode. You know what I mean? It’s like, no, you need to find a balance. So anyway, I, I, I’m, I’m sorry you’re going through this and I love you and, and, um, if you ever need to talk off pod about anything, I’m obviously here. [00:12:21] Christina: So [00:12:22] Brett: Thanks. Just been quiet. [00:12:25] Jeff: You’re like, I’m not going to call it a hotline, but as soon as we start recording, I’m, I’m not, that’s not making fun. And I’m just, it’s a loving laugh at how funny we are as people. [00:12:37] Christina: totally. [00:12:38] Jeff: It’s such a hard feeling that maybe I don’t want to be here. And I’m sorry that you’re having that. I have had that feeling sometimes. [00:12:48] Jeff: I think. I’m not prescribing this to you, or even, but sometimes I think, wait a minute, actually, what I really need is for the rest of the fucking world to disappear for like two days, and just give me some [00:13:00] space where I don’t have, because for me, when I feel like that, half of it is that like, I’m anticipating some kind of either, connecting, uh, force coming towards me. [00:13:10] Jeff: Someone calls or is in my space or whatever else. And I just need to not have someone in my space, not have someone calling or asking anything of me. Um, and what I really wish I sometimes like, I wish I could just press pause in my life. I’m like, no, I just want to press pause on everything around my life. [00:13:26] Jeff: And I think I could just enjoy myself for a little bit. Oh [00:13:29] Brett: Don’t tell my employer, but we’ve gone through more management changes and it has left me in, um, a no man’s land where everyone thinks I’m working for someone else. And during this period of depression, um, I basically. Have been doing like the bare minimum and nobody seems to care. Like no one even notices. [00:13:58] Brett: It makes me worry about the long [00:14:00] term steadiness of my employment. But right now, I haven’t had to take disability. I just, I have just been granted this no man’s land where I have no weekly meetings with any manager. [00:14:16] Jeff: my God. [00:14:16] Brett: I have managers that are like, reach out if you have any questions. And I’m like, I, I don’t have any questions. [00:14:22] Brett: I can, I have automated a good portion of my job, which, you know, [00:14:27] Jeff: of course you have. [00:14:28] Brett: I deserve to be paid for that. That’s fine. Um, but yeah, it’s been actually, I’m really grateful that, uh, my, my day to day employment has kind of just worked out to. To work with my current state of mind, [00:14:45] Christina: Do you remember that, that, that story? I think it’s on, I think I just found the Google thing. I think it was from the early 2000s called, like, About the Forgotten Employee, about the guy who was, like, hired at this place, and they just, like, literally forgot that he existed, but he was still [00:15:00] getting his paychecks every week, even though he was literally doing nothing. [00:15:04] Christina: Um, and, um, yeah, that was, like, a great, um, [00:15:12] Brett: Yeah I get I get paid way too much for as little as I’m doing these last couple of weeks [00:15:18] Christina: I mean, but this is fine. A, A, this is a little bit on them for doing like the management thing that, that your employer is known to do, and hey, that my, um, employer’s owner is also known to do. Uh, B, it’s the holiday season, so everybody’s checked the fuck out. Like, everybody’s checked, from this point of time as we’re recording this, everybody’s gonna be checked out until like the week after New Year’s. [00:15:37] Brett: for sure [00:15:38] Christina: Like, everybody’s, everybody’s completely out of it. Um, and C, you do a lot, um, you know, and you’ve been productive in other ways, so like, let them figure it out. Like, I, I trust me, like, my, my self review for this, like, first half of the year, like, I’m not getting promoted, which sucks, because I really would like to be promoted, right? [00:15:54] Christina: I’d really like to get promoted, but I’m also like, no, I’m not getting promoted, but I’m also not getting fired, um, even though, like, I’ve been going [00:16:00] through a lot of shit and probably should have taken disability, um, so, like, be grateful that we work. Um, in an industry, um, unlike what Jeff does where we can actually like half ass it to the extreme and still be okay, which is kind of like, it kind of sums up what’s wrong with corporate America and, and the tech industry in general. [00:16:21] Christina: But you know what? I’m tired of like never taking advantage [00:16:24] Jeff: No, you were, when you were talking about this, I was thinking about how like I’m, I’m part of this member owned research collaborative and there’s like nine of us and we all work on teams together and we all, we’re all responsible. The, I’m like, oh my God, it sounds so nice. Although what I would like more than what you have, Brett, is more like what Big Head had in Silicon Valley where like, um, he’s, did you watch the show, the two of [00:16:45] Brett: I can’t remember [00:16:46] Jeff: He, he gets into a situation with all these other, these people that hang out on the roof where like they couldn’t cancel their contracts. And they need to just let them run out their contracts. And, but, and they need to be on premises. So they just sit on a roof doing nothing. [00:17:00] Um, and, uh, and I was like, every time I see them, like, I want to work at corporate. [00:17:04] Christina: Oh, no, totally. And it’s, although, the interesting thing is at this point, I think they’ve all figured out, like, this would be funny, I would love, I, in some, like, I miss Silicon Valley so much for so many reasons, like, it’s a great show, um, and, and they nailed the, the parody and the other stuff just, like, perfectly, but, um, it was also one of those things where I, um, am like, okay, um, they, uh, I would love to see them do it like today because today I think that they would just find a way to get out of the contract or they would just like pay the penalty and they’d just be like, yeah, you’re done. [00:17:37] Christina: You’re fired. Um, but, but I agree with you that that would be like the ideal thing, um, would just be to be like, yep, I just can sit out this. But in general also, yeah, I totally understand what you’re saying. Like Jeff, like Jeff has like real responsibilities and like has real people around and has like works in a, in a field there where people will definitely notice when you’re not doing it. [00:17:56] Christina: Um, and I think it’s hard for people like Brett and I who have come [00:18:00] from jobs where we had real responsibilities and people really noticing, it’s hard for us to then go into places where people don’t. [00:18:06] Jeff: Oh yeah. [00:18:07] Christina: where even, even better, where like, the bare minimum will make you be seen as a hero, and you’re like, wait, what? [00:18:13] Christina: And, and, and, and, because it moves so fucking slowly, um, in comparison, you’re just like, oh, [00:18:20] Jeff: No, it sounds [00:18:20] Christina: how people actually work. [00:18:21] Jeff: to me, like, I think I would be, I would be, um, mostly at peace with it, um, but it also sounds like, just the lack of definition is hard. [00:18:31] Christina: With lack of definition and slowness, I think, I think you’d be bored at certain times. [00:18:35] Brett: I wrote three articles this year, like my job, technically, I’m a technical writer, even though my, my job title is software developer. Um, I’m a technical writer and I wrote three total pieces of content. [00:18:50] Christina: But didn’t, but weren’t they some of the most successful? [00:18:52] Brett: one of those pieces of content made it into the top 20 pieces of content for the entire [00:18:58] Jeff: you’re a fucking great writer. [00:19:00] Which is not something that the people in your job before you [00:19:02] Brett: And so at my, at my, at my quarterly review, I got to say, yeah, I was in the top 20, uh, developer content that went out for the year, even though like I didn’t have much else to show that I did the bare minimum and, and I got patted on the back, [00:19:18] Christina: Absolutely. [00:19:19] Jeff: Yeah. [00:19:20] Brett: got, I got a bonus. [00:19:21] Christina: You got a bonus and, you know, you automate the shit out of a bunch of things. You build tools for a lot of other people to do stuff. Like, you’re a great, great, great writer. If I were hiring someone for a documentation team, I wouldn’t necessarily hire you to be a writer. I would maybe hire you to be like, maybe an editor, maybe someone to look over certain stuff, maybe someone to help with style guides, but I would really hire you to be like the tooling person and to be like the person to like help like come up with the efficiencies. [00:19:45] Christina: Not at all. That’s [00:19:46] Jeff: Cause you’re not gonna be able to help yourself, you will write the documentation. [00:19:49] Brett: that is, that, that is my niche for sure. [00:19:52] Christina: And, and I mean, I’m just, you know, being again, like, candid. It’s like, you’re such a good writer. Like, okay, I put Brett on like the really hard things, but I don’t want to waste [00:20:00] his time or his talents and having him do the day to day bullshit documentation stuff that anybody can do. [00:20:05] Christina: Like that’s, that’s not why I hire Brett. Like I would hire Brett to do the stuff that’s more complicated. Like the same thing, like you don’t hire me to write your code. Um, I can, I can come up with a great demo and, and I can, I can certainly, you know, like, like explain how stuff works, but like. That’s not why you hire me. [00:20:23] Christina: Um, if I needed to make that as like my day to day career, I could do that, but that’s not why you hire me. You hire me to be your person who’s hosting events and who’s giving talks and who’s, you know, kind of being like a, a public face of, of your company. Like, that’s why you hire me. You don’t hire me to be the person who’s, you know, building all the. [00:20:40] Brett: scenes writing. Yeah, [00:20:41] Christina: right. I mean, I’d be, I’d, I’d, or even behind the scenes as like a PM, like, I’d be happy to do that, but like, if I’m really gonna be in a PM role, it’s gonna be, needs to be one that’s more public facing, you know, that is the person people can blame or praise, um, to be clear. [00:20:56] Brett: We are so opposite in that regard. Like [00:21:00] by my, my current manager, who is actually like a VP, um, he keeps suggesting that I do presentations, um, that I do webinars or go to conferences and present, and that is not what I signed up for. Um, I try very hard to talk him out of. Relying on me for that kind of public facing stuff. [00:21:24] Brett: I’m like, you should get Christina Warren in here, because she could kill this. [00:21:31] Christina: Yeah. No, I mean, but so we should, we, we, we should start a Dere team with Yumi and, and, and Jay. Like, you know, honestly [00:21:38] Brett: Yeah, [00:21:39] Jeff: Hire me to [00:21:40] Christina: or, or even better Dere as a service where we [00:21:43] Brett: there you go. [00:21:44] Christina: rented out by like other teams. [00:21:45] Brett: Mercenary DevRel. [00:21:47] Christina: I mean, kind of, I, you know, okay. Like saying this out loud, I kind of don’t hate the idea. [00:21:51] Christina: I’ve been trying to, I’ve been trying to come up with like a Dere as a service plan for like years. I think that [00:21:55] Brett: Kind of brilliant. I love it. I love it. [00:21:58] Jeff: Is there a job opening for [00:22:00] someone to push the Raspberry Pi supercomputer around on a pallet jack over at your employer? Because that sounds fun. [00:22:07] Christina: Yeah. For you for sure. Also, you would be like, you could help be like our, our, our, our content strategist. [00:22:12] Brett: Do you know about, do you know about Chris, do Benson’s Pi Cluster? [00:22:17] Jeff: That’s what I’m talking about. Isn’t there a Raspberry Pi, like, supercomputer, [00:22:20] Brett: got laid off. [00:22:21] Jeff: Oh, so there is a job opening for pushing it around on a [00:22:24] Brett: no, they, they apparently didn’t appreciate his obsession with this thousand pie. [00:22:30] Christina: But it was so cool! [00:22:32] Brett: It was so cool. And like, it was the center attraction at some conferences. [00:22:37] Christina: yes, at Oracle World, I was gonna say, like, wasn’t, like, the only news that, like, came out of Oracle World one year was that? Like Like, what the [00:22:43] Brett: and he was so good at it and he made great video content. Like he had the whole setup with like the overhead cameras at the electronics bench and everything. And, and he was so dedicated to it and there was like an interpersonal conflict with him [00:23:00] and one of our three managers at that point. And, uh, and, and he got cut, which. [00:23:06] Brett: Sucks. I, I should check in with him. I assume he landed on his feet. He’s a goddamn genius. [00:23:12] Christina: Oh yeah, I have no doubt, um, that he, anybody who’s smart and has, you know, had gout would hire him. Um, but that just seems like such a waste. [00:23:21] Jeff: he’s now like Guilfoyle in a garage somewhere in Silicon Valley with his pie cluster. [00:23:25] Christina: That’s true. [00:23:28] Brett: So, before we wrap up Mental Health Corner, how are you guys doing? [00:23:31] Christina: Um, I’m okay. I’m, I’m okay. I’m in a, I kind of already talked about mine a little bit, like, I’m, I’m doing okay. Like I’m, basically, I think, I’m in a better place than I certainly was like earlier this year. And I think, uh, I’m looking forward to it. You know, seeing where things go. Like I said, I’m now at this point, I’m like at a month or so on no meds other than dexedrine and that’s been, that’s been doing okay. [00:23:56] Christina: So, you know, fingers crossed. [00:23:59] Brett: Yeah. [00:23:59] Jeff: He [00:24:00] just reminded me I haven’t taken my meds today. I was gonna, I was gonna rattle my meds for you here and then, [00:24:08] Brett: gonna, you’re gonna pop some Vyvanse in the middle [00:24:10] Jeff: not much. No, I can’t take my meds anymore. Uh, yeah, it. It caused a, I mean, I was, I had a sort of manic episode that was stronger than any I’d had since I was diagnosed. It wasn’t anything like that, but it was more, it more existed in like in the way my body sort of, shit in my body just banged around inside. [00:24:30] Jeff: Um, and I only have one medication treating that, um, which is Lamictal. And, uh, And I was taking Vyvanse and it was, it had been a month of just this on and off like rattling in me and I was not in a good place. I was having a hard time working. It wasn’t the kind of manic where it’s like, woo, at least I’m getting shit done. [00:24:47] Jeff: Um, and I, I met with my medication manager for the first time for a long time, like since I went to Kenya. I mean, I, which was like in June or July. And, uh, we’re going through everything. I’m telling her what’s been going on for me and stuff and she’s, and she’s listening [00:25:00] and let’s just check in on what medications you’re still taking or whatever. [00:25:02] Jeff: Um, it was five inches thick. Wait. Have you been taking the Vyvanse this whole time? I was like, yeah. She’s like, I think you need to stop. Let’s just see what happens if you stop. And I was afraid to stop, like, to just cut it completely, um, cause it doesn’t, it only takes a couple days to get over the weirdness of cutting Vyvanse completely, but like, sometimes those days really suck. [00:25:24] Jeff: And uh, but I did it cause I was like, I was just, I was in a really, I was having really bad end of days, basically. Now that was the end of my days, but like, [00:25:33] Brett: sure, sure, sure. [00:25:34] Jeff: I just realized I’m actually very good about taking my medication in the morning, but I have misplaced my pill sorter. And so, uh, when I’m done talking here, and I only have a little bit to say for my mental health check in, although that was probably it right there. [00:25:47] Jeff: Um, I, uh, You know, one thing that happened for me this week that was really helpful is, for various reasons known mostly to my therapists, I’ve been pretty paralyzed when it comes to trying to sit [00:26:00] down and work lately, which is something I’ve experienced for decades. It’s sort of a dissociative experience. [00:26:08] Jeff: It takes a long time to get into that, but it’s almost like the way I describe it is like, I’ll sit down at my desk feeling pretty clear headed about what I need to do, and then it’s like, It’s like a dream where like, there’s a thing in front of you and when you reach out for it, it disappears. When you put your hand back, it appears. [00:26:26] Jeff: Reach out for it, it disappears. And my, I, I actually experienced my brain just like going blank when I’m trying to just work. Um, and, and actually this wasn’t what I was going to talk about, but I, I rejiggered my Stream Deck. which I’ve used for a long time as like almost assistive technology because I’ve, if I’m in a meeting or something, often it’s just because my brain is thinking about too many things at once. [00:26:51] Jeff: Um, but if I’m in a meeting and, and I need to kind of pull up a document or I need to just quickly sort of reference something, the spark happens to do that. [00:27:00] Like the little neuron fires, but because I’m also in a relational experience where I’m talking to people, cause I’m very like in meetings, very sort of relational based. [00:27:09] Jeff: Um, it’s hard for me to then. Start just pulling up documents. And so for a long time, I’ve had my stream deck in front of me in meetings for whatever project I’m on. And the main documents are there. Cause I can just like reach over and press the button and it pops up. Um, even though I could do Alfred, I could do a million things. [00:27:24] Jeff: That is the thing that, that creates a kind of [00:27:26] Brett: Yeah, the physical button [00:27:28] Jeff: physical button. It’s kind of like how I still want knobs on my stereo in my car, which is why I still drive, drive a car that’s very old. Um, but, uh, but anyway, um. I kind of rejiggered that because I’ve been just really kind of freezing up. And so like one thing I added, just silly, but like, it’s not silly, but it’s a, it’s massive, it’s like, I have a shortcut on my computer without, like, if I run the shortcut, it’s a Mac shortcut or whatever. [00:27:53] Jeff: It just shows me my next five calendar events and I. Can run that a hundred times a day. Cause my brain, for [00:28:00] whatever reason, I can hold all kinds of stuff. Like I, I work at like a high level, right? Like I write a lot. I do a lot. I talk about a lot. And when it comes to that basic kind of executive function stuff, I can really, there’s just something that there’s something gets interrupted. [00:28:14] Jeff: So I have that button. Then I have a new one because every project I’m on has a damn Google, Google drive folder, which like I don’t love. Um, but I made another like. Uh, Mac shortcut where it’s like, I press a button on my stream deck and a little menu comes up with my, you know, five main projects. And it’s the main Google drive folder selected. [00:28:33] Jeff: It comes open and you have, that’s like loosen me up a little bit. Cause I was really dealing with this kind of like paralysis and I’m still dealing with it, but the thing that really helped me this week was my therapist was like, so part of a whole wider conversation, but she was like, I think it’s time for you to just kind of look at your environment that you’re working in and think about not just. [00:28:53] Jeff: Are there things you should take out, but are there things you should put in? Right. And, and it happened to be just the right kind of therapy [00:29:00] appointment where when she suggested that and I hung up, it was a Zoom thing, I was able to look around and be like, oh shit. Like I like my aperture was wide. I was like, yes, this and this and this and this and this. [00:29:10] Jeff: These things kind of stressed me out and they’re like all around me. And um, and I went and just like, I just actually sat in my, in one place and made a list of things that I think might be a little stressful for me. And then I went and started boxing ’em up. And it was great because I had, I mean, I keep a lot of like bullshit around like little trinkets, little like things that help me think of people or times or whatever. [00:29:31] Jeff: But like, most of those things are not neutral times or neutral people. Um, and, and most of them are almost like Battlescar type of stuff. And even if it’s like Battlescar, like it was a band that broke up and it was a painful breakup or something. And there’s a picture of me playing with that band or whatever. [00:29:48] Jeff: And so I went through it. I just kind of cleared that stuff out. And it felt so good, and I’m not done, I’m actually looking, you listeners can’t see this, but you can, I’m looking off to the left because I have, it almost looks like I got fired. Like, I have like a [00:30:00] box in the corner of the office, like a couple of picture frames popping out. [00:30:03] Jeff: Um, but the other thing my therapist was saying is like, so also think about what Could come in and, and that’s been huge for me. So I’ve really simplified, but then I’m bringing things in. I’m trying to talk my family and to let me take my son in eighth grade, had a, had a, had a class, an art class where they were also see making structures that people were making, like. [00:30:23] Jeff: Castles, and someone made a little princess house, whatever, and he made a fleet farm. And I’m like, trying, [00:30:30] Brett: don’t know if Christina knows [00:30:31] Jeff: farm, it’s just like, the best ever, like, it is a big box store in a certain sense, like a Home Depot, but it’s really a farm supply store, and it’s really an Ace Hardware magnified, right? Like, you can buy actual cow bells [00:30:45] Brett: When, when Ivanka Trump, when Ivanka Trump came to my town, she did a photo op at Fleet Farm because, because it was supposed to make her feel more relatable to rural [00:31:00] Minnesota, which is also why I don’t shop at Fleet Farm anymore. I shop at Menards. Um, [00:31:05] Christina: I know Menards. I’m familiar with Menards. [00:31:08] Jeff: it’s like Menards, but a thousand times better, like, [00:31:11] Christina: So is it like Menards and like a Home Depot combined? [00:31:14] Jeff: no, it’s Menards, a Home Depot, a tractor supply store, and a farm supply store. Like the one in my hometown has live chicks. Not like [00:31:22] Brett: if you want barbed wire and a shotgun and you want some feed [00:31:27] Jeff: And a bag of nuts. And a really big bag of nuts. [00:31:30] Brett: and, and maybe some bulk, like, um, what are those little puffy orange candies called [00:31:35] Jeff: Oh yeah, [00:31:36] Brett: always had? Yeah, um, like, if you want all that at once, you go to Fleet Farm, and it’s, it’s a disorganized mess, really, cause there’s just so much stuff, [00:31:46] Jeff: to your flea farm, but not in mine. [00:31:48] Christina: I [00:31:48] Brett: really, it’s well or, it’s, it’s organized, but you have to ask somebody, where am I headed in this [00:31:54] Jeff: Well, you know why I don’t have that experience? Because my obsession with Fleet Farms, and I’ve been to every one in the region, [00:32:00] is that it’s a place that I just go through every single aisle. Because at some point, I’m going to be like, whoa, horse mane shampoo. Like, it never occurred to me. [00:32:09] Brett: while you’re [00:32:10] Jeff: Yeah, like, anyway, so he made a fleet farm and, and I want that at my desk, like right in front of me, like it’s the kind of stuff I want like right now. [00:32:19] Jeff: And the interesting thing was that as I sort of simplified the space from things that were a little just Yeah, it just felt a certain way for me, um, including some like professional books that were like part of a transition from one life to another in a certain way. I realized I felt more and more like myself now. [00:32:37] Jeff: Like it was, it was such a, it was nice. Um, I often think that like by having all these things spread around me, it is sort of evidence of, it’s like evidence that I have lived. Um, and, and it is like, well, it’s in me anyhow, so here it is. But, um, moving it out was just like, oh, I do actually feel a little more. [00:32:55] Jeff: Like grounded in this moment without all these things, cause I would see him in my zoom thing and I would [00:33:00] see, you know, um, anyway, that was nice. I just, everyone talks about in productivity and stuff, your environment. Uh, and, uh, and I think mental health is another context to talk about how you construct your environment. [00:33:11] Jeff: Not surprisingly, I still have a lot of cash sitting in front of me right now. That makes me feel good too. [00:33:16] Brett: I, uh, I went, I went to the bank, um, um, instead of buying, instead of Christmas shopping this year, I am just sending 50 bills to all of my nieces and nephews, [00:33:29] Jeff: And podcast co hosts? [00:33:31] Brett: which, which I’ve done before. And it feels like the cheap way out, but honestly, as a kid, the [00:33:38] Christina: love it. [00:33:39] Brett: The gift I look forward to most every year was the 100 bill my grandma would send me. [00:33:45] Brett: I didn’t, like, every, everything else was, like, Um, uh, with ephemeral, like you’re going to like this toy for a month and then you’re going to be done with it, but a hundred dollar bill that, and I saved as a [00:34:00] kid, I had a savings account. Like I, I didn’t go out and blow it on candy and toys. Like I built up a savings account. [00:34:08] Brett: What it was, it was, it was like a, an endorphin rush to see like, Oh my God, [00:34:13] Jeff: I wish I had that [00:34:14] Christina: I was [00:34:15] Brett: a 10 year old kid with a thousand dollars. And [00:34:29] Christina: a, a fair amount in savings. It’d be more if I had a house and other things, but like, you know, I, I could do better to be very clear. [00:34:35] Christina: I could do a lot better. But I, um, definitely, um, as a kid, like, they would call it the Bank of Christina. And, and, I mean, I got to the point, like, I actually had to get, like, a lock on my door because my dad, like, really literally was, like, using me as, like, a personal ATM, and it was a problem. [00:34:51] Jeff: I’ve done that with my son, I’m like, Do you have a 20 up there? I’ll get you back. [00:34:54] Christina: Yeah, um, no, it was, like, a problem, but, like, you know, and I had a savings account, and then I got a checking account, and I would put money in it, but, you know, I couldn’t [00:35:00] put stuff in all the time, but, like, I would, like, take, like, the 20 I would get for allowance and other things and, and gifts, and I, I would, like, save it. [00:35:06] Christina: Like, I, I, I’ve saved enough. For one year, like, I basically bought, like, the, the monitor for our computer and the printer, um, uh, for, for, for the family computer. Um, I remember I had enough money one time and this was, like, the best, like, pre Christmas thing ever. So when the Nintendo 64 came out, this one, it was, like, this is the first console I remember that was, like, impossible to find in stores. [00:35:28] Christina: Like, I’m sure that there Difficulty finding other things, but like, from the time it was released, you could not get a Nintendo 64. And the games were really limited, too. Like, there were only a few games out at launch, and they were really hard to find. And nine days before Christmas, I was at a Target, And I saw some family like buying one and they didn’t have any accessories or anything. [00:35:48] Christina: And I went up to the guy and I was like, do you have any more Nintendo 64s? And he put one up on the counter. And I was like, I will be right back. And I went to my mom and I was like, mom, I was like, I have 250 in [00:36:00] You know, it’s like, like stored, um, in, in the, um, uh, the living room and in the drawer where you keep your Bibles, where dad won’t go. [00:36:08] Christina: And I will, I will buy this. I will give you the money as soon as I get home. I was like, but I, I, I, I need this. [00:36:15] Jeff: Picture your dad opening the drawer of Bibles and being like, Whoa, shit! Closing it really fast. Like, that’s safe. [00:36:20] Christina: Totally. So, so she, um, so, so I got it and, and, um, I had to rent a game because you literally could not get Mario 64 anywhere. So I’d like rent the game. [00:36:30] Jeff: a Redbox for video games? [00:36:32] Christina: Well, it was, it [00:36:32] Jeff: Well, the video [00:36:33] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it [00:36:34] Jeff: right. I forget that. It’s a generational difference. [00:36:36] Christina: Totally. It was a home, it was a home video, but it might have, actually might have been Blockbuster. I think home video didn’t have Nintendo 64 games yet. Um, so I think it was Blockbuster. I got that in a Wayne Gretzky game and, um, I, uh, uh, because like those were the only two games I could play and, and memory cards so that I could like save my progress, um, myself and then transfer it, um, uh, to, to the new game, uh, when I was able to finally get my own. [00:36:58] Christina: And my mom, this was the, the worst thing. [00:37:00] She still made me freaking like wrap it up under the tree. I bought it myself, and I still had to wait nine days. I still had to wait nine [00:37:07] Brett: are like that. I bought my parents a Loamy the like, uh, the thing that turns your kitchen refuse into compost overnight. Um, [00:37:16] Christina: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:37:17] Brett: I bought them that, uh, it was on Yeah. Oh, it’s amazing. I use, I use it, I use it daily. Um, so I thought they would like one. They were super interested. I bought it for them and I had them order it and I would just pay for it and they got it and they called me and they’re like, all right, we got it. [00:37:34] Brett: Do you want to come over and wrap it and we’ll open it on Christmas morning? And I’m like, no, start using it. [00:37:41] Jeff: yeah, that’s so funny. [00:37:43] Brett: It’s your Christmas present now. Take it and go. Um, do you guys remember savings bonds? [00:37:49] Jeff: Oh yeah. I had a, [00:37:50] Christina: I’m aware of them. I’m aware of them. I don’t think I ever got any. [00:37:55] Brett: oh, my aunt and uncle used to send me a hundred dollar savings bond every Christmas, which [00:38:00] is, it costs like 50 bucks, and you give it, I think, three to five [00:38:04] Jeff: later, it’s worth 110. [00:38:05] Brett: And, and I collected those all through my childhood and it felt like a big gift, but it wasn’t money you could spend right away. Um, so those all got set aside and it wasn’t until I was in like a financial crisis that I remembered, Oh my God, I have this drawer full of savings bonds. [00:38:24] Brett: And it added up to like 3, 000, but it sucked because I needed that 3, 000 just to get through like my current crisis. And then it was just all gone. So. [00:38:34] Jeff: all that time. [00:38:36] Brett: it felt like, it felt like a lot of, um, a lot of saving and a lot of effort for something that, it saved my skin, but it felt, it was disappointing. I, I really, as a kid, I really thought that was going to be [00:38:49] Jeff: Yeah, no, I did too. I was like, this is gonna be amazing. It’s like in No Country for Old Men when he’s like, do you know how long this quarter’s been on this journey to you? like those savings bonds, they were [00:39:00] just on this journey to help you with that one week. [00:39:03] Brett: I don’t think they, I don’t think you can buy savings bonds anymore. Or is it CDs? [00:39:07] Jeff: I mean, my grandma gave them to my boys up until about 15 or 20 years no, no, they’re not 20. Up until about 15 years ago, um, or maybe 12 years ago, she was still buying them. But I think she actually may have bought them all in bulk when they like, when each kid was born, she would buy a bunch, and then give them out, um, so [00:39:29] Brett: Oh, so maybe they were already matured by the time she gave them. [00:39:32] Christina: Yeah, I, I, I was gonna say, I think, cause it wasn’t the whole thing, cause like a CD is different, but like, from what I understood, and I, I never had relatives who got me saving months, like, uh, my, my father’s family who had money never gave us money for shit like that because they’re bad with it and, and whatever, um, and, and, and fuck his mother, but like, um, [00:39:55] Jeff: I wasn’t gonna say it. [00:39:56] Christina: well, I mean, you know, like if there’s a hell she’s there, but like, [00:40:00] um, My mom’s family, who ironically, like, didn’t have money and then wound up when they died, not only were their funerals completely, like, plots, everything prepaid, had they, you know, saved enough to pay for, like, all of their, their medical expenses and other things. [00:40:18] Christina: And paid off the house and, and other stuff. They still had like money to leave for the kids. Like it was kind of wild actually. Like that these very like simple, like, like people who like lived a very like modest life actually had like far more money to leave to their family than like the millionaire who turned out actually wasn’t like, um, was like living off the company money and like had the. [00:40:37] Brett: people are the worst tippers. [00:40:39] Christina: Oh, yeah. I mean, well, it depends on how rich you are. Like, like there’s like old money, rich people will tip well, but yeah, it totally, totally depends. But like, um, so they didn’t give me savings bonds. What they would do is I would just, I would get like, um, candy money is what my grandmother would call it. [00:40:53] Christina: And she [00:40:54] Jeff: my my aunt called it ice cream money. My great [00:40:56] Christina: yeah, she would call it like, you know, she put like, like, like 20 or something, you [00:41:00] know, for like, you know, a holiday and whatnot. But I always thought that savings bonds were like a scam. Like, that’s what I, my understanding always was, was that like there’s people like thinking that it was going to be worth way more and then it’s like, [00:41:13] Brett: it’s guaranteed money. Like, [00:41:15] Christina: I know [00:41:15] Jeff: It’s guaranteed to be a very poor return on [00:41:17] Christina: Well, that’s what I meant in terms [00:41:18] Jeff: like, it’s like, it’s a contractually, uh, [00:41:21] Christina: Right. Well, that’s what I meant. Like my scam, I meant like the return on investment for these things is like non existent. Like obviously it’s, it’s like, uh, you know, the, the, the bond is guaranteed, but like, you know, like it was one of those things that I think that you’d have, I always just imagine, and this is just from TV, which is my. [00:41:36] Christina: Mostly, my knowledge of savings bonds, you know, like door to door salesmen, they’re like, oh, it’s going to be such a great return on investment. This will be how you’re going to pay for your kid’s college and this and that, and just buy this. And it’s like, no, really what you want is you want like a, you know, whatever the, the, the sort of a Roth account is, and, and you want to do like these other things, like that’s how you really save for college, but like, you know, to get like [00:41:55] Brett: You know, until there’s a financial crash and your, your IRA becomes [00:42:00] worthless, [00:42:00] Christina: I mean, fair, fair, but, but, um, I mean, at that point, we had bigger fish to fry. [00:42:10] Brett: Alright, did we, did we just spend 40, 42 minutes on a mental health corner? [00:42:15] Christina: We did. We did. [00:42:16] Jeff: meandered [00:42:17] Brett: So [00:42:18] Christina: out. We’ve got a lot of other things. [00:42:20] Brett: I [00:42:20] The Pivotal Role of Overtired in Taylor’s Success [00:42:20] Brett: feel like it’s important that we acknowledge the pivotal role that this podcast played in Taylor Swift becoming a Times Person of the Year. [00:42:31] Jeff: And that’s you too, I came in late, so I [00:42:33] Christina: I mean, you came in late, [00:42:34] Jeff: little humble about it. [00:42:36] Christina: okay, you can be a little humble, but it is, it is more Brett and I, um, but I’m, I’m going to give you credit here, Jeff. Like Brett was really ready to like, not talk about Taylor Swift ever again. And you, and, and, and you, and you’ve been like willing to let me continue to talk about her. [00:42:50] Christina: And you’ve been willing to like, let me continue the conversation, especially this year, which was the pivotal year. So, so I know, I think, I think obviously it was our podcast. It was the [00:43:00] three of us. And that is why, did either of you read the profile? The profile was actually really good. [00:43:06] Brett: I, it was really long. Um, I, I skimmed it. I read, I read paragraphs that jumped out at me. I did not read the whole thing. I got some interesting tidbits. Um, she, she has led an interesting life and she has She has a lot of, she’s made some powerful decisions, uh, that have benefited her. Well, I did enjoy the story about her first, like right at the beginning of the article, it talked about her first heart, yeah, her first heartbreak when she was like scheduled to open and it was going to change her [00:43:40] Jeff: got the Kenny Chesney tour, it would change her career, she’d get so much money, and [00:43:44] Brett: And then he got sponsored by a beer company and she wasn’t old enough to be involved and he came back to her at like her 18th birthday party and gave her a check for all the money that she probably missed out on, um, [00:44:00] by being the opening act and she was able to like pay her band bonuses [00:44:05] Jeff: yeah, let me [00:44:05] Brett: for tour buses and [00:44:07] Jeff: yeah, that was good. I was gonna say, let’s just do the list of things that she paid for with that check. And then let us try to figure out how [00:44:15] Christina: How much that shuck [00:44:16] Jeff: check was for. So he is like, I’m sorry, this kid couldn’t tour with me, it would have been a big deal for her, she would have made a Ton of fucking money. [00:44:23] Jeff: And so he sends her a birthday check. Right. And it’s like, Brett just said, I’m searching this as I look. It’s like, she paid bonuses to her band. It paid for her tour buses, to her buses. Right. Like it paid for so much. How much was this check inflation considered? [00:44:44] Christina: I don’t know probably a million dollars I don’t know. [00:44:46] Jeff: And when I know Kenny Chesney makes a lot of money, but I think of people at his level of fame, which is probably bigger than I think, as like, not able to cut a million dollar check. [00:44:58] Christina: think in [00:45:00] 2006 I think he would be able to very easily because you got to think you got to think about a couple things there. One, the economy for the music industry had not completely collapsed yet. Like people were still buying CDs and and um, and so And he was selling a shitload of CDs. Like we didn’t listen to him because we’re not as demographic, but he was selling a shitload of CDs [00:45:19] Jeff: Hey man, I saw him in 07. It was Girls Night Out at the Indiana State Fair. I went with my mother in law and my wife. Girls Night Out. [00:45:26] Christina: okay. So you, which is, that’s, that’s a big thing to play too. Right? Like, like, so he’s playing like big venues, like Indiana State Fair is like, you know, he’s getting paid well for [00:45:34] Jeff: venue. [00:45:34] Christina: Well, not to mention the merch sales. Right. So like, you know, so you’re getting merch, you’re getting touring, you’re getting still CD stuff. [00:45:41] Christina: So. I think he probably could cut her, I don’t know what it would be pre inflation, but like equivalent of a million dollars now. And, and yeah, she’d be able to do it, which she didn’t expand upon in that article, but I do know from past things with her, cause this is brilliant. So they, they bought their, their buses and I think they actually bought [00:46:00] them from Kenny Chesney and they, um, [00:46:03] Jeff: this is money laundering. This is starting to look like a different deal. [00:46:06] Christina: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [00:46:09] Jeff: Now I get [00:46:10] Christina: Now you get it. Yeah. No, I’m sure there’s some money. Definitely. Definitely money laundering. No, they bought the buses. But then what they did is they would rent them when they were not in use to other acts because her dad is, is like an actual, like financial, like advisor, like, Analyst, like, you know, stockbroker, like a guy who’s actually very, very good, like was paid for a very long time to manage other people’s money and like in the, you know, many, many millions of dollars. [00:46:36] Christina: So he’s, he’s the sort of person who you would be perfect to be like the dad of like a burgeoning like, you know, country pop star, right? Like this is not Britney Spears family who’s like, how much money can we suck out of this girl? This is like, oh no, okay, what, how can we leverage this the best we can? [00:46:53] Christina: And so he’s like, okay, well, we’ll. Buy the buses and then we’ll rent them when we’re not using them. And that way we can [00:47:00] get tax write offs, but also we can continue to make these, make money for us even when we’re not on the road. And like they, they [00:47:05] Jeff: income tour buses. [00:47:06] Brett: So what, what does Taylor Swift’s mom do? [00:47:09] Christina: she was in marketing and then I think she was a stay at home for, for Maryland and then she’s a stay at home mom. [00:47:15] Christina: Um, [00:47:16] Brett: so the, the, the [00:47:18] Jeff: And now she’s a baroness. [00:47:19] Brett: To becoming a billion dollar time person of the year is to be one, insanely talented, two, have a financial manager for a father, and three, have a marketing person as a mother. [00:47:33] Christina: Yeah, who’s also [00:47:34] Brett: and you’re, and you’re, and you’re well on your way. [00:47:37] Christina: And you’re [00:47:37] Brett: Yeah, and a check from Cheney. [00:47:39] Christina: and then the check from Kenny Chesney. Yeah No, I mean to be clear like she like it’s her talent alone I think probably she would have gotten a record deal, especially when they were giving everyone record deals. [00:47:50] Brett: Sure. But a lot of people got record [00:47:52] Christina: Oh, no, to be very [00:47:53] Brett: We don’t hear about them [00:47:54] Christina: Oh, no, no, no, absolutely. And to be very clear, I think the reason she’s been so successful, and she, I think, would be the first to admit [00:48:00] this, is like, she came from money. Her family was willing to move to Nashville for her. Like, they literally, like, picked up, like, were on, went from their, like, their palatial estate or whatever in, in, in, you know, um, Pennsylvania, went to Nashville, like, to help her pursue her dream. [00:48:15] Christina: They had the money to do it, and then they had the money to invest. And also, when she was, originally, she was signed to, um, a songwriting deal with, um, with one of the record labels. And they were like, they didn’t want her to perform her own songs. They were like, we’ll give you a record deal, but we want you to sing other people’s stuff. [00:48:29] Christina: And she’s like, this isn’t right. I’m not going to do it. I’m going to back out. And her mom is like, God, you know, we’ve worked so hard, you know, I can’t believe you’re going to do this. But she was like, okay, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll trust you. And that was when she then met Scott Borchetta, who let her do her own stuff. [00:48:44] Christina: And of course that relationship ended awfully, but it was very productive for like the first decade or 15 years or whatever of her career. So, um, Yeah, but to be very clear, like, having the right support system around you, which almost no one of [00:49:00] her age ever has, like, the dividends, and to this day she even says in the article, she like, that she considers her, you know, her thing like a small family business, because her dad’s still involved, her mom’s still involved, her brother’s involved, like, you know, they, they keep it tight. [00:49:17] Jeff: a friend who would frequently reference his family’s small business, and then I realized he was a trust fund kid who didn’t have to work, and that that family business was massive, but it was controlled by a small number of family members. It’s like, oh, [00:49:29] Christina: I think is basically this, [00:49:31] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. That’s amazing. [00:49:34] Jeff: My mother in law, when we went to see Kenny Chesney, I kept calling him Kenny Mick Chesney, I thought his name was. She thought I was being an asshole. [00:49:40] Sponsor: Aroundsquare [00:49:40] Brett: uh, now that we’re in a lighter mood here, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do a quick sponsor break. Um, this episode is brought to you by AroundSquare. You know that experience of learning something new that would have been so useful last week, or finding something special that you hadn’t realized you’d been missing all these years? [00:49:58] Brett: Well, today might be one of [00:50:00] those days. AroundSquare is a company that you Probably never heard about, but for certain people, the brand, the products, and the ideas just really resonate. Since 2007, AroundSquare has been designing and producing beautiful, unusual, functional goods for the mind and body. [00:50:16] Brett: Their specialty is a range of intriguing little objects for everyday carry. Many of these things could be described as skill toys, dexterity trainers, or fidget items, but they really don’t conform to these labels, and none of them really do the product justice. They’re striking minimalist, striking minimalist objects more akin to jewelry than play things, but they’re also serious tools designed for creative exploration and peaceful manipulation things to keep the hands busy and the mind at ease by providing just the desired level of stimulation. [00:50:50] Brett: A round square’s eclectic range goes way beyond this and includes stationary jewelry, functional clothing, and much more. Check it out at [00:51:00] www. aroundsquare. com and use the code Overtired at checkout for 15 percent off. That’s aroundsquare, A R O U N D S Q U A R E. com, uh, and use the code Overtired. [00:51:16] Anyway, back to Taylor Swift [00:51:16] Brett: and now back to Christina for the Taylor Swift update. [00:51:19] Christina: And, and then now, now back to me for the, for the penultimate, for the, for the, uh, ending on this. So again, this very long article, but it’s really good one. And this comes towards the end. And basically the author is just kind of written about how he was kind of evaluating when he was talking to her. [00:51:34] Christina: She was kind of telling the story about how 2016 was this really low point in her life. And she didn’t think that anybody was going to listen to her music again. And, and that she thought that she, you know, had to go into hiding and all this stuff. And, and he kind of was thinking himself like, eh, but you know, you actually. [00:51:50] Christina: You know, that that lead single off that next album sold, you know, uh, that, that hit number one and the album sold 1. 3 million, um, you know, albums its first week and, and, [00:52:00] you know, you had this massive thing and, and, and it didn’t look, um, you know, like anybody’s career died. You know, you look like you were a superstar who, You know, I’m gonna read from him. [00:52:08] Christina: She looked like a superstar who was mining her personal experience as successfully as ever. I am tempted to say this. But then I think, who am I to challenge it, if that’s how she felt? The point is, she felt cancelled. She felt as if her career had been taken from her, something in her had been lost, and she was grieving it. [00:52:23] Christina: And then this is, this is I think really brilliant. Maybe this is the real Taylor Swift effect, that she gives people, many of them women, particularly girls, who have been conditioned to accept dismissal, gaslighting, and mistreatment from a society that treats that, that treats their emotions as inconsequential, permission to believe that their interior lives matter. [00:52:40] Christina: That for your heart to break, whether it’s from being kicked off a tour, or by the memory of a scarf still sitting in a drawer somewhere, Or because somebody else controls your life’s work is a valid wound and no, you’re not crazy for being upset about it or for wanting your story to be told. [00:52:55] Brett: That seems fair. [00:52:57] Christina: And I think, I think that’s like, I think he’s right. [00:52:59] Christina: I think that [00:53:00] is like the real, like, that, that’s, I think that encapsulates like why this year in particular, finally, like, I think she even says in the article, like, that she feels like she’s like, at like this precipice moment at 33. I don’t think anybody anticipated that she would have the year that she had, but I think that’s it, is that it’s, you know, it gives people, especially women and particularly girls, like permission to be like, yes, this shitty thing happened to me, and I might be over dramatizing it in my own head or I’m not, but I can feel this. [00:53:33] Christina: And that’s That’s pretty fucking great. [00:53:36] Brett: Well, [00:53:36] Jeff: goddamn video about it. [00:53:38] Brett: goes back to like what we were talking about. I’m talking about with depression, [00:53:42] Christina: Yes. [00:53:43] Brett: the, it’s the same feeling that like, uh, this can’t be that bad. Even though it feels wrong for me, I like, let’s put it in the context of everybody else and I’m not special and I don’t deserve to have these feelings. [00:53:59] Brett: And I think it [00:54:00] speaks to that kind of, [00:54:01] Christina: Yes. [00:54:02] Brett: yeah. [00:54:03] Christina: No, I mean, and you see it like at the concert. I can’t wait for you guys to watch the, the tour movie when it comes on streaming, um, and Plex accounts. Um, [00:54:11] Brett: saw it in the theater. No, I’m just kidding. I didn’t. [00:54:14] Christina: you did not, you liar. Um, it, [00:54:16] Jeff: They had the Taylor Swift popcorn buckets when I went to see Ghost in the Shell with my son. He brought me there, I didn’t bring him [00:54:22] Brett: Wait, Ghost in the Shell was in the theater? [00:54:25] Jeff: Yeah, it’s like a remastered version, this is a really good one. It’s good. Yeah, anyway, sorry, but we almost ended up with Taylor Swift popcorn buckets at Ghost in the Shell, which is funny. [00:54:35] Christina: that is funny, actually. No, but no, I can’t wait for you guys to like for, for that to come out so you can see parts of the, the, the concert because I’m not going to make you watch all three and a half hours. Don’t worry. But, um, it is actually, [00:54:46] Brett: a half hours. [00:54:47] Christina: she performs for three and a half hours. [00:54:49] Brett: Oh my [00:54:50] Christina: Oh, and they cut, and they cut, they cut, they cut songs from the, um, release version. [00:54:54] Christina: So it’s only three hours in the theatrical release. They cut like six songs. Um, [00:55:00] uh, well, I mean, genuinely it is like the most amazing, like, achievement of like artistic, like, um, athleticism I’ve ever seen in my life because, [00:55:10] Brett: I watched King Kong with a notebook and just mark down all the [00:55:15] Jeff: that was the name of a movie. [00:55:16] Brett: I thought they could cut. I think King Kong could have been a two hour movie. [00:55:22] Christina: yeah. [00:55:23] Jeff: That’s the hill you’re going to die at. You’re like of all the movies [00:55:26] Christina: Of all the [00:55:26] Jeff: to, to be like, you know, where [00:55:28] Brett: was that was [00:55:29] Jeff: fucking King Kong. Give me my notebook. [00:55:31] Brett: so Lord of the Rings like that could have been cut too. Um, but but like King Kong is the one I feel most wasted, like hours of my life. And like, I am almost vindictive about how long King Kong was. [00:55:48] Jeff: Um, before off of the Taylor Swift topic, I want to just tell you how this article highlighted a problem in Instapaper, which is that when I open it in Instapaper, [00:56:00] it says this, here’s the headline. Taylor Swift is Times 2023 person of the year. Bye. Taylor Swift comma time. I don’t know how that ended up happening, but it’s pretty, like, she really figured out how to [00:56:13] Christina: really figured out how to control everything. She, she even figured out how to like, like make Instapaper. Like, yeah, I know that’s very funny. [00:56:19] Jeff: She hacked into Marco Armet’s thing and that hacked into the New York Times and now here you go. She [00:56:24] Brett: Speaking of, speaking of Instapaper, should we do some Graptitude? [00:56:28] Christina: some Graftitude. [00:56:29] Grapptitude [00:56:29] Brett: Oh man, so I’ll kick it off. I just published my, uh, Brett’s Favorites 2023. I do this every year on my blog. Um, there is a second installment coming, uh, but I listed probably 30, 30 apps that I love this year. So I’m going to link that in the show notes and people can check it out. [00:56:51] Brett: Um, I think. Based on the mention of Instapaper, I want to highlight Artifact. [00:57:00] Have you guys used Artifact at all? [00:57:02] Christina: Um, that’s the uh, that’s the, that’s the news app from the Instagram guys. Yeah. [00:57:08] Brett: it is, it is pretty They went through a recent change where they started highlighting user comments more than news stories. Um, so it takes a little extra work to use it as a news app than it used to. Um But, I, I love it, it has AI generated summaries of every article, um, and then if you click it you go to the actual article on the web so that, that author gets like, you know, ad money, whatever, um. [00:57:40] Brett: I do love that if enough people report a headline as clickbait y, they will have AI rewrite the headline based on the content of the article in a non clickbait y fashion. So you can, like, I go through Apple News and I get frustrated [00:58:00] because It’s, it’s so many Newsweek articles. So many Newsweek articles [00:58:05] Jeff: Oh yeah. [00:58:05] Brett: get boasted on me. [00:58:07] Brett: Um, and, and Artifact has actually led me in the categories that I tell that I’m interested in. Um, it has provided a lot of Really good news from a variety of sources and not, uh, not just an echo chamber of what it thinks I want to hear. It’s, it’s pretty good. The, the algorithm is, um, people centric in my opinion. [00:58:33] Christina: Yeah. I like it a lot too. And, and obviously it’s, it’s from the, um, uh, Instagram, uh, the original Instagram team, um, that, uh, Mike and Kevin, who, you know, I think, uh, regardless of, I mean, look, however you use Instagram now and however it’s evolved, like, I think that is probably one of the most impressive apps ever. Like, to have a, a team of nine people sell like an app for over a billion dollars and it to remake a, a, a, a massive tech company [00:59:00] to be like one of the central like things like I think Instagram as a, you know, product and I think Facebook as, as a company like was greatly, greatly hurt when the two of them left like four years ago. [00:59:09] Christina: But yeah, so, so, um, uh, kudos to Artifact. Um, I actually, do you, do you have yours, um, um, Jeff Ready? [00:59:17] Jeff: Yeah. [00:59:17] Christina: Go for it. [00:59:19] Jeff: Uh, well, it’s, it’s really, so it’s, it’s this torrent app on setup called Folks, [00:59:26] Christina: Oh yeah! [00:59:27] Jeff: And like, it is a good app in a, in that any torrent app could be good. I mean, they’re all, it’s such a shit show that you’re navigating. And, and so it’s, it’s. Clean. And I, I get my stuff quickly and I don’t have to look at crazy ass ads ever. [00:59:40] Jeff: Um, and, and I’ve really appreciated it cause I haven’t found anything better. I don’t like love it the most, but I want to just say if anybody knows of anything that’s even cleaner and more elegant and has a, uh, even better search functionality, uh, I’ll, I’ll look at it. Um, [00:59:57] Christina: so you’re looking for something that can search for [01:00:00] stuff, not just something that will manage torrents. [01:00:02] Jeff: Yeah, and even just, I don’t even, I don’t seed shit. I’m a, I’m a one way Johnny. [01:00:07] Christina: Right. Okay. [01:00:08] Jeff: that, put that season one of Columbo in my pocket, and I’m [01:00:11] Christina: it. Okay. So, so Transmission won’t give you the search, but is a very clean interface if you have another way to use it. So Transmission, which was recently Within the last year or so, like, it finally got a massive 4. 0 upgrade. Um, 4. 05, I think, came out two days ago, so that’s now finally being actively developed again. [01:00:27] Christina: Um, and, and it runs natively on M1 Macs now and whatnot, and, and that is, um, it’s on, it’s on a number of platforms, but it was originally a Mac app. Um, that’s, I think, like, the best all around clean client. However, uh, it’s not gonna give you, like, the, the searchability stuff, so [01:00:44] Jeff: Yeah, and I mean, and I do, I, part of why I’m interested if there’s something better is not, I mean, cause they do an amazing job when you consider the shitscape that is Searching Torrents online. I mean, what you have to navigate to show you something. [01:00:57] Brett: you have a Synology, don’t you, Jeff? [01:00:59] Jeff: I sure do [01:01:00] have a [01:01:00] Brett: Um, there are transmission is available for Synology. Uh, there’s also a default package called download station that actually [01:01:10] Jeff: yeah, [01:01:10] Brett: really, really decent search, uh, really decent, like it’ll automatically find magnet links. And then you can just like. Pick a torrent and then come back the next day and you don’t have to sit and watch the number of peers and percentage download and everything and it just goes to your Synology while you sleep and [01:01:31] Jeff: tell me when the first three police academies are ready. [01:01:33] Brett: it works pretty well, yeah. I have found, I have found many, many a TV show unavailable on streaming using Download Station. [01:01:42] Christina: Yeah, Download Station is great and, uh, and Usenet, and, and Usenet is still a great thing too if you’re willing to pay for, um, uh, you know, some of the, the Usenet services. You can get a lot of really great stuff from [01:01:54] Brett: There are still Usenet services? [01:01:56] Christina: yeah, no, they’re, well, okay, again, it’s, it’s just for file sharing. [01:01:59] Christina: So, [01:02:00] um, but, but there’s GigaNews, there are a bunch of them and basically, like, they will have, like, really long retention times and you can use things like Sonar and Radar to search. and find basically anything you want and whatever quality you want and then just queue it up and it’ll download for you. [01:02:14] Jeff: Okay. Got it. Cool. Thank you. I will, I will start [01:02:17] Christina: We should have like a piracy episode sometime. Uh [01:02:20] Jeff: That’d be fun. Is there a great piracy guest we could bring? [01:02:24] Christina: huh, I’m thinking about [01:02:26] Jeff: An actual pirate? [01:02:27] Christina: mean maybe, maybe. I was actually, I was actually thinking maybe we could get one of the torrent freak guys on to talk. [01:02:32] Jeff: Oh yeah. I would love to pepper questions at a torrent expert slash piracy slash pirate. [01:02:42] Brett: Guaranteed to get us, um, top billing on the podcast apps. [01:02:48] Christina: I mean, you never know. I mean, like, it depends. Like, are they algorithmically determined? If so, then yeah, probably. [01:02:53] Brett: I [01:02:54] Christina: If there’s no human, like, curating that stuff, then like, yeah. [01:02:58] Jeff: Man. What’s yours, [01:02:59] Christina: [01:03:00] Okay, so we were talking about, um, uh, ReadIt, um, uh, later apps, and I have to say, like, I’ve been using, for the last year or so, I’ve been using, um, uh, ReadWise is, uh, Reader. [01:03:10] Christina: And, and it’s awesome. And so Readwise is, is a service, uh, Readwise. io. And, um, I, uh, and they have a reader service, which will also kind of act as like a read it later thing, which is really, really good. Like you can, it’s basically the idea is that you can kind of like import all of your highlights from like your Kindle and your Instapaper or iBooks or, you know, Pocket or whatever, you know, if you’re wanting to kind of keep track of that stuff. [01:03:34] Christina: And then Reader, they basically built like a read it later for Power users is how they describe it. And. I love it because you can basically bring in RSS, you can bring in PDFs, you can bring in like YouTube videos, you know, you can bring in other read it later stuff, you can bring in EPUBs, you can connect newsletters to it, and so it’s, they literally built an app that like, Would be like I remember when I first read about it. [01:03:57] Christina: I was like, okay This is the the perfect app for me Like [01:04:00] this seems like this was done for me and like I I’m still you know I think I might I have to check I think I still pay for Instapaper Pro I don’t even know anymore, but I was like a line I was like a but I was like a lifetime Instapaper person even though I haven’t used that actively in a really long time and and I never really got into pocket because I was team Marco and you know like Whatever. [01:04:22] Christina: Um, and, and like old grudges die hard, frankly. uh, cause I remember when that first started out as like a Firefox extension and they kind of copied like, like Marco’s whole thing. Anyway, um, like everything’s under the bridge now, but like, you know, I, I’ve always, like, uh, we used to say at, at Gizmodo, it was like, people were like, oh, we’ll just use Pocket, and we were like, no, we were an Instapaper family. [01:04:43] Christina: Um, and, but now I think I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m a, um, a Readwise reader family. Um, it’s a really, really good app, and so if you’re looking, go on. [01:04:53] Brett: I had heard about this, but I had never checked it out before. And I’m looking through the feature list and, um, yeah, [01:05:00] bringing like, especially if I can combine my like Kindle reading, uh, and my highlights in eBooks with stuff I find on the web and read later, tagging and, and note searching and it can sync to our sometimes sponsored notion. [01:05:17] Christina: Yep. [01:05:18] Brett: Yeah, that’s, this looks pretty great. [01:05:20] Christina: Yeah, no, it’s really, really good. And, um, the pricing of it, um, is, uh, like, uh, you know, you can, you can use, you can try it out. Um, but I think it’s like eight dollars a month or something, which for me is completely worth it. So, [01:05:36] Brett: Nice. [01:05:37] Jeff: and to any listeners who now have the song under the bridge in their head like I do, just because Christina said the words under the bridge, I see you. But I cannot help you because I can’t even help myself. [01:05:48] Christina: I’m sorry about that. But yeah, it’s a great song, though. [01:05:54] Brett: Last thing, last thing I’ll mention for anyone who has bought an Ultimate [01:06:00] Hacking Keyboard based on my recommendation. Um, they just came out with, they call it the Riser 60, and it is a, uh, tenting mechanism for your keyboard that gives you, I think, up to 60 degree Tilt, uh, from the side, which is ergonomically fantastic. [01:06:21] Brett: Like I tent mine at like 10 degrees using the built in feet, but I’m so excited to have it tented like almost vertically and tight from the side. That’s so [01:06:31] Jeff: wait to show you the keyboard that is, that is custom built for the three fucking fingers I use to type, because it’s gonna, it’s gonna do to you what all this does to me. You’re going to be like, well, I don’t know how to use a machine so complex. [01:06:44] Brett: I, you, I’m showing you, I did this to my finger and. [01:06:48] Jeff: showing me a cut finger which he’ll now retract. [01:06:51] Brett: it’s, [01:06:52] Christina: ha! Fuck off, Siri. Oh, okay. That was [01:06:55] Jeff: hard to understand. [01:06:57] Brett: uh, but I, I butchered my finger [01:07:00] and I couldn’t touch type with, with, because every time my keyboard was covered in blood, it was, it was wicked. So I started trying to type with my two, like, four fingers. [01:07:10] Brett: And trying to like, hunt and peck type, and I can’t do it. Like, my brain is so geared to touch typing, that I don’t know, it takes me so long just to type the word the. It took so much effort, it was insane, I don’t know how you do it. [01:07:27] Jeff: Well, see, now when everything gets even worse and people have their fingers all cut up, look who’s gonna still be writing. And you’re gonna be over there with your fucking tent typewriter or whatever the fuck it is you’ve got. I’m kidding. What are you doing? [01:07:40] Brett: It’s like a homeless shelter for typewriters. [01:07:43] Jeff: Aw, that’s nice. Alright. Oh, [01:07:46] Christina: We should have, um, um, his book, the shipping has been delayed because of slipcover madness, but when, um, when Martian’s, um, um, book comes out, like, we should have him back on the pod. [01:07:56] Jeff: Slipcover Madness would [01:07:57] Brett: have paid for that. I am anxious to get it. [01:07:59] Christina: Me too, [01:08:00] me too. It’s probably not going to happen by Christmas, but um, [01:08:03] Jeff: He was a guest when I was away, right? Wasn’t he a guest when I was away? [01:08:06] Christina: yeah, I’d love to have him back to talk with you, because you guys would like, I mean, look, he just, he fits this pot, like, perfectly. [01:08:11] Christina: Like, I met him. [01:08:12] Jeff: he tent his keyboards? [01:08:16] Christina: I mean, he has like the most insane typewriter and keyboard collection, like, of anybody you’ve seen. He literally wrote this book about, like, the history of [01:08:24] Jeff: I love it. [01:08:25] Christina: stuff. And, and he and I, um, met and like became friends because we talked about, um, about, um, uh, sneakers one day for like three and a half hours in Twitter DMs. [01:08:36] Jeff: The movie or the article of clothing? Okay, got it. Great. Does anybody call them sneakers still? [01:08:41] Christina: Uh, usually kicks, but yeah, I mean, something people come to. Yeah. [01:08:44] Jeff: That’s what the kids are saying. [01:08:46] Brett: up kicks. [01:08:47] Jeff: the [01:08:48] Christina: right, foster the people. [01:08:49] Jeff: I’m gonna, I’m gonna, [01:08:51] Jeff: fight you with [01:08:53] Brett: good to see you guys. [01:08:54] Jeff: under the bridge. Get some sleep under the bridge downtown. Bye.[01:09:00]

Brett and Jeff hold the fort down, with mental health checkins and some very, very nerdy talk of clean installs, Brett’s projects, and their favorite apps. Sponsor Notion Notion AI can now give you instant answers to your questions, using information from across your wiki, projects, docs and meeting notes. Try Notion AI for free when you go to Notion.com/overtired. AroundSquare Find your next beautiful, unusual, functional item for the mind and body at Aroundsquare. Use the code OVERTIRED at checkout for 15% off. Show Links MaxQDA Homebrew Homebrew Bundle MAS CLI Marked and Bear Peek PEP440 mdless Paste LaunchBar PopClip Fathom analytics Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Maybe A Little Too Nerdy [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome to Overtired. Christina is gone this week, but she will magically be back thanks to multiple technological miracles for an ad read of Notion, who is this week’s sponsor, so stay tuned for that. I’m Brett Terpstra, I’m here with Jess Severins Gunsel, and I think, I think we’re doing okay. [00:00:28] Jeff: Yeah, yeah. You just, you just reminded me of that. So Minnesota Public Radio, obviously our public radio station here, um, there’s just a lot of good people that either left or were laid off over the last few years. And some of them, they keep their voices on the spots. And, and they’re people who like it. [00:00:44] Jeff: Leaving was hard or was painful or was unfair, anything, right? And then they still come on, on the radio being like, you know, well, you’re listening to Minnesota Public Radio. What about, you know, it’s just like, wow. Anyway, but Christina is, is definitely coming back. She wasn’t laid off, [00:00:59] Brett: No, [00:01:00] she was not. Um. [00:01:02] Jeff: You’d lose a lot of income getting laid off from Overtired. Anyway. Hi, [00:01:08] Brett: that will you lose that sweet, sweet notion money. [00:01:11] Brett: Uh, [00:01:12] Jeff: man. [00:01:13] Mental Health Corner [00:01:13] Brett: Yeah. So, um, let’s, uh, let’s just kick it off right off with a mental health corner. Um, if you would like, I will start. [00:01:22] Jeff: Yeah, do it. [00:01:23] Brett: Um, so the holidays have proven to be, I never realized how stressful holidays were on me. Um, and looking back, um, it’s. I, I dread, uh, hanging out with my family. [00:01:41] Brett: It triggers me in all kinds of ways, um, but I’ve always just accepted it as kind of a, a price of existing. Um, [00:01:51] Brett: and with my last two partners, Um, they have hated my family enough, understandably, [00:02:00] that if I chose to hang out with my family, I felt like I was disappointing them. And if I chose to skip family gatherings, I felt like I was disappointing my family. [00:02:14] Brett: So I get faced with this no win situation, no matter what I choose. And I have this huge fear of disappointing people. Like, it has Huge, a dramatic effect on my, um, my well being, even on my physical health. Uh, I, I can’t stand to have people feel like they’re disappointed in me. Um, or even, or even for me to feel like they’re disappointed in me, even if they’re not. [00:02:44] Brett: Um, and, [00:02:45] Brett: and, [00:02:46] Jeff: we decide that that’s true and it’s not true. Yeah, yeah, totally. I experience that. [00:02:50] Brett: Well, and this, like, with my parents, I project all of the beliefs of the church onto them, even, and I don’t know that they [00:03:00] hold these beliefs, I just, I’ve amalgamated all of the things I learned in my childhood And, and put it on my parents. And, and like, I react to anything they say with that lens of, okay, you believe everything this fucked up church has ever told you. [00:03:20] Brett: And maybe they don’t. But they, they also continue to support that church, um, that has had, A horrible impact on many kids my age. Um, not that I’m a kid now, but like, I talked to you, [00:03:35] Jeff: That kid is in you. [00:03:36] Brett: I, I moved, I moved back to the town where I went to that church, and I have become friends with multiple ex Ex Pleasant Valley kids, kids who went through that youth group, kids who went through that church, and we all carry our own version of religious [00:04:00] trauma, um, and by and large, like, a lot of the, a lot of the people I know who survived it, um, are queer, and like, the damage that that church did to queer people is It’s unforgivable. [00:04:18] Brett: Um, like nobody can call themselves Christian and damage kids in that way. Um, so all of that is on my mind when I hang out with my parents. Um, my siblings are less problematic in that way. But, um, but I do, I do hold my parents accountable for a lot of that trauma. Not just to me, but to my peers. Um, and man, like, so this comes up in therapy, uh, in couples therapy and, uh, and I get, because when I imagine, or when I try to understand how I [00:05:00] will feel about something in the future, I project myself into that situation and, and I imagine all of the feelings from it. [00:05:07] Brett: And, and. Doing so will give me immediate stomach problems. Um, like I think three days after my last couples counseling, not the last one, the one before it, I was sick and like it takes a physical toll on me. And honestly, I never, I never put together that the holidays did this to me. [00:05:31] Jeff: Oh, yeah. [00:05:33] Brett: understood exactly how stressful, exactly how much of a no win situation the holidays were. [00:05:42] Jeff: And does that, when you say the holidays, does it start with Thanksgiving for you? Because that’s the first, right? That’s the first gathering. [00:05:47] Brett: My, my whole family got together in Ohio and I was invited and I declined. Um, so that was forgivable. Um, [00:06:00] missing Christmas would be less forgivable. But missing Thanksgiving, like I got text messages from the family saying, Hey, we’re having a great time. Hope you’re well. Like, nothing judgmental or, or ill intentioned. [00:06:14] Brett: Um, so that actually went okay. Um, I didn’t come out of that feeling a lot of guilt. Um, Christmas is going to be a We don’t have full family plans for Christmas. Like, no one’s traveling. It would just be, my parents are in town, where I live. Um, so I need to see them to feel like I have fulfilled familial obligations. [00:06:43] Brett: Um, so what we’re gonna do is, prior to Christmas, we’re gonna go out for pizza, and Um, at a place where I can have a whiskey sour and, and comfort myself. Um, and my mom will be on good behavior [00:07:00] because we’re in a public place to some extent. Have you, have you ever had someone close to you that loves sending stuff back to the kitchen? [00:07:09] Jeff: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I’ve definitely had this experience. [00:07:13] Brett: Yeah, [00:07:14] Jeff: Or worse, the person who’s like, you know, you really should send that back and you can’t just like get them off that horse. [00:07:20] Brett: yeah. So my mom is, my mom is the lady who will always If anything is wrong, send it back to the kitchen and make a big deal about it to the waitstaff. And then, like, dock waitstaff’s tip [00:07:34] Brett: because the kitchen mess, like, [00:07:37] Jeff: up with the tip. Never fuck with the tip. [00:07:39] Brett: dude, I tipped 30 percent last night because we had a server that was just, it was a quiet night at the grill. [00:07:48] Brett: Uh, she was just so attentive and would like sit and talk to Elle about like Yarnology stuff, like knitting and, [00:08:00] uh, she was just fantastic. So I left a, left a 30 percent tip on a 90 tab. It was, it was, well, my mom would never do that. Um, and going out to eat with my mom is always a little bit stressful, but not as stressful as dealing with her in her own home. [00:08:18] Jeff: I can’t. Yeah, okay, got it. Yep, yep, yep. It’s a little safer. [00:08:21] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:23] Jeff: um, I’m not going to just free associate on restaurant, uh, ethics, but I have a lot of thoughts as you talk, but that’s not what this is about. [00:08:32] Brett: I, uh, well, I’m done. If you have something to say about restaurant ethics, [00:08:35] Brett: I’m open to it. [00:08:36] Jeff: so a couple of things, like one is I will never, um, I will never, uh, not tip at least the, the, the, you know, the base fair amount. Um, and part of that is, and I’ve had plenty of shitty surfers, right? But it’s like, maybe you’re shitty. You have to deal with people all day, and people are horrible. [00:08:54] Jeff: And I don’t know, maybe I’m horrible and I don’t even know it. Like, maybe I’ve done something in this interaction that is like, God, [00:09:00] I hate it when the, you know, like, yeah. You should also be tipped for having to do this job when it’s miserable for you. [00:09:06] Brett: so in Europe, tipping is unusual, um, tipping is if something is just fucking fantastic and, and you need to note it, but as a general rule, like this idea of a 20 percent tip is it’s non existent, but they also pay their servers a living wage. [00:09:29] Jeff: Right. Right. [00:09:30] Brett: Like, we get away with paying servers less than minimum wage, [00:09:35] Jeff: and then one other follow up that you maybe think of is, um, about being good Christians. Uh, so I was raised Catholic, um, and Lutheran at the same time, divorced parents. And, uh, I remember with my stepdad, we were leaving. Church one day, it was the Catholic Church, and everyone was just being a little rude and inconsiderate in the parking lot. [00:09:59] Jeff: He got [00:10:00] upset, and I think he was only half kidding. He’s like, these are not people who are being good Christians! And I thought of that, so the other night our family went to this Gaza Solidarity event. Um, and uh, at, at the, at the Heights Theater here, it was the, it was a international day of solidarity with the Palestinian people and that what was happening is in theaters all around the world, people were reading something called the Gaza monologues, which are the [00:10:25] Brett: I, that happened, that happened here in [00:10:27] Brett: Winona [00:10:28] Jeff: so these kids from the Gods of War in 2010, which feels a lot like the one now, um, it was really beautiful. But this theater, they have a church behind the theater and there’s a parking lot there. And at night when movies are happening, there’s no, the church has no use for that thing. But the church is so vindictive about towing people that if you go to this theater’s website, the first thing you see in all bold, almost like an old angel fire site where it’s like be blinking is like, do not park in the church. [00:10:52] Jeff: So here was the thing. Not only does this church tow you, um, Uh, from an empty parking lot, if you choose to use it for the movie [00:11:00] theater, the little independent arts movie theater. But they, this is in Minneapolis and they contract with a St. Paul, uh, uh, towing company. So you have to go to [00:11:08] Brett: Oh no. [00:11:09] Jeff: then you have to pay apparently an unusually high amount. [00:11:12] Jeff: And I was like, That is some fucked up Christian behavior. That is not Christian behavior. I don’t, whatever, if you’re like a textualist, there’s nothing about parking lots in the Bible, Old Testament or New, but I feel like you can infer that you should find a way to just allow people to park or at least make a mistake, right? [00:11:30] Brett: We, uh, there was a night in Minneapolis, uh, we were at our practice space, and our drummer Clay’s car got towed, and we walked to, it was in Minneapolis, it was near the Walker, there’s like an impound lot [00:11:46] Jeff: Oh, I know this lot. I, my car has been in this lot. [00:11:48] Brett: and, and we climbed the fence with a coat over the razor wire, and then drove his car through the fence, And just kept [00:12:00] going. [00:12:00] Brett: And as far as I know, to the best of my knowledge, there was never any repercussion from this. [00:12:07] Jeff: That’s like Breaking Bad when they, when they liberate the RV. [00:12:10] Brett: Yeah. [00:12:12] Jeff: That’s great. I think that that’s perfectly fair and just. [00:12:16] Brett: Fair play. [00:12:16] Jeff: Yeah, not all laws are meant to be followed. What did the John Lewis thing? That’s good trouble right there. That’s good trouble. [00:12:26] Jeff: I guess for me, uh, in terms of like mental health stuff, it’s, it something that has been on my mind a lot is not exactly about me. Um, so I, I’m doing this. work with a new client and there is this really amazing organization in Minnesota called Foster Advocates. [00:12:43] Jeff: And they, they do work to sort of promote the rights and needs and agency of foster kids. And in most states, definitely in this state where we have 87 counties and we have also tribal governments. Um, you know, foster care is, [00:13:00] is managed a little differently in all of these places, right. And so there’s, there are state Guidelines in their estate rules, but like, not only if you are a foster kid, like, and if there’s anyone out there, I don’t mean to speak for you. [00:13:11] Jeff: I’m kind of sharing what I’ve picked up over my lifetime is that not only are you in an incredibly precarious and ungoverned position by even just being in a foster home. Right? But you are in a precarious and, and, you know, there’s regulations for the system, but it just feels very ungoverned in many ways. [00:13:28] Jeff: System, right? And, um, so part of what I do and what I’m doing with this organization is like, they’ve done all these, um, group interviews with fosters in all the different counties, basically, in Minnesota. And, um, and they’re really amazing conversations. And also this organization, I mean, uh, uh, I think a majority Definitely a majority of the staff running this organization are ex Fosters, which is really cool. [00:13:51] Jeff: Um, and uh, and so I’m working with the transcripts of all these focus group sessions, focus groups used loosely in [00:14:00] the qualitative sense, not in the, you know, we’re trying to make sure that this, this Hollywood Marvel movie appeals to China kind of way, not like that, but like, um, not to pick on the Chinese, but I’ve come to learn that that’s really becoming a problem for the quality of these movies. [00:14:13] Jeff: Um, but anyway, um, So I’ve been working with these, um, interviews and part of what I do, I use special software and stuff and I, and I go through looking for patterns or whatever ways of sort of like, um, sort of representing the experience in a way that can be turned into something, turned into advocacy [00:14:30] Brett: Is that that MaxQDA [00:14:32] Jeff: Yeah, [00:14:33] Brett: Yeah, yeah, [00:14:35] Jeff: I wish I knew about it when I was a journalist. It’s just an amazing way to look at a lot of text and search across it and you code it and you can do just, it’s amazing. It’s my favorite thing to do. Um, anyway, so what will happen when I have When I work with a client like this is they might, you know, have a bunch of interview data or I might do the interviews and then they’ll say, can you look at these interviews? [00:14:56] Jeff: These, maybe it’s 12, maybe it’s 50, maybe it’s a hundred interview transcripts. And, [00:15:00] and can you look at it for, for this theme? So it might be like, uh, you know, um, you might be looking for a theme of, of harm versus hurt. Like what are qualities of, of harm in the system as they’re described, and what are qualities of hurt? [00:15:12] Jeff: So no one’s necessarily saying it explicitly, but you’re sort of drawing it out. Right. And in this case, I’m helping them. Among many other things, I’m helping them look at, um, over medication, over prescription, forced prescription, forced, you know, medication. And not only that, but like denial of medication, you know, the whole thing. [00:15:29] Jeff: It’s like, what’s in there? What are people talking about? And the thing that has just been haunting me all, all week, because I spent a day on this early last week, Um, that I hadn’t really thought about. It’s like, so my own experience being diagnosed bipolar two years ago, and then going through really a hell in trying to find the right medications. [00:15:48] Jeff: Like I was over medicated for it at first. And I sort of, I consented to that. I, I, the manic episode that led me to diagnosis was scary enough to me that I was like, yeah, hit me with the stuff, you know? And [00:16:00] we talked about this on past episodes, but like the work it takes to witness yourself when you are Essentially, I remember my medication provider said, look, I’m just going to say it straight. [00:16:13] Jeff: It’s always an experiment. It’s always an experiment. We don’t know what’s going to work. If it fails, we don’t know how it’s going to fail. And, and, and I, I don’t know about your experience of bipolar, but like, because, because like after, you know, a lifetime of having manic episodes, now I recognize that we’re not nearly this sort of. [00:16:33] Jeff: impactful. When I had one that was that impactful, what happened to me is I, and this was the hardest part, is I, um, I, I realized maybe I can’t trust myself. Maybe I can’t trust what I’m thinking or what I’m feeling because you have that experience of sort of grandiosity and you have that experience. And, and for me, I don’t know if this is true for you. [00:16:53] Jeff: I know this is a symptom of bipolar and like mania is like, I can be so fucking certain of what I’m [00:17:00] thinking and so righteous about it. And I’ve always tried to temper righteousness in my personality, even though I [00:17:05] Brett: course you have. Yeah, for sure. [00:17:07] Jeff: But I try to temper it because relationally it’s just a bad thing. [00:17:10] Jeff: You know, like it shuts off. It just. Kills relationships, right? But when I, when I was, had this manic episode and then when I was on some of the wrong medication, that righteousness was so intense. And I got to the point where I, what happened was, if I was feeling it, I could be like, oh, this isn’t real. [00:17:26] Jeff: Like there’s a, and there’s enough of a kernel of truth in it that you can defend it until you You know, turn to ashes in your shoes. But like, but like, I’m, uh, part of what my experience has been in the last two years is all these different ways in which I can be like, Oh, I’m feeling this thing. It feels very real. [00:17:41] Jeff: That means it’s not. And, and, and that is a really shitty feeling, right? [00:17:46] Brett: for sure. [00:17:47] Jeff: so it’s not just, so in the context of that, then trying to witness yourself and be like, I’m feeling this thing, I think it might be the medication. I need to talk to my medication manager, or I need to advocate for myself if my medication manager is [00:18:00] feeling certain that this is the right thing, whatever. [00:18:02] Jeff: And then what you experience, and I know you know this, when you do decide to switch, and even if you’re fully supported in switching, you may go through a whole new hell, right? And what I was reading in these transcripts, that was just crushing my heart, was all of the examples of young people saying, I knew this wasn’t right in me, but all that I would hear back is, Well, you’re not behaving well, you’re fucked up or whatever. [00:18:28] Jeff: You just take your meds. We decided what the meds are. You got to take them. There’s no, not only might you not inherently at that point, have the ability to advocate for yourself, or even understand that advocating for yourself is a thing, that you have that power, that you are inherently, Uh, the, the, the person that is most expert on you and your body, even if you have to learn what to trust and what not to, you are the expert, right? [00:18:53] Jeff: And it’s in everything you need to be the expert is there and it’s only there for you. I guess that’s kind of what I mean to say. And, and the [00:19:00] way that kids talked about how, um, they would try to say this doesn’t feel right. This doesn’t feel good. And what would come back is essentially like, Hey, look, you’re a fucked up kid. [00:19:09] Jeff: This is just what you need. We need to trust us, right? We’re the professionals. And in some cases, the quote unquote professionals are really just the foster parents who Maybe don’t have any kind of like intelligence around mental health or child development, right. Or any of that stuff, same problem with the juvenile justice system, the so called juvenile justice system, which treats, you know, kids as if they couldn’t possibly be expert on anything except being shitty kids. [00:19:33] Jeff: And, and even then it’s like, you don’t even know why you’re a shitty kid. Do you like it? That’s, that’s the like internalized message, or at least in the hundreds of interviews I’ve gone through, that certainly comes up. So anyway, from a mental health perspective, I was just. Realizing, and one of the things, and if anybody has any information along these lines that’d be interested, is like, am certain that for fosters there probably isn’t any really good sort of guidance out there in the world to be like, here are some sort [00:20:00] of ways of listening to your body and trying to understand, right? [00:20:04] Jeff: Uh, it’s complex, right? Or it’s complicated. It’s not always complex, but, um, But I just realized there’s no advoca there’s no, there’s no tool. There, there must, I, I don’t think, if you think about, if you think about the, the kinds of rights that foster kids, um, deserve, need, are sometimes given, at least in legislation, about, you know, whether it’s visitation with siblings or, um, access to mental health treatment or, um, you know, um, all these different things that you might have. [00:20:33] Jeff: It’s very difficult, um, To imagine a lot of energy around somehow, what, legislating? This idea that like, you deserve to have a voice in your medical care, which is a little easier to imagine than You deserve to be helped to understand what is happening in your body and what it might mean or what to expect. [00:20:59] Jeff: And I get the [00:21:00] sense that there’s just none of that and you’re all alone. I just think of these kids like you’re already so goddamn alone and you’re also alone in this fog of medication hell. Um, and I’ve just been thinking about that a lot. So, and, and, and of course, like thinking about it because I’ve had my own sort of experience in the last couple of years that, um, I hadn’t previously had of just like how, how not yourself you can feel and how hard it can be to trust yourself and how hard it can be to get good help. [00:21:26] Jeff: Like I had a medication manager I really liked, but that person made some really bad decisions on my behalf. And it impacted me in really significant ways that, that involved my body and [00:21:37] Brett: you went through it with the support of your family. [00:21:40] Jeff: yeah, and a, and a partner who’s a therapist and, but, but, but, but it’s, it’s still a, she’s my partner, not my therapist. [00:21:48] Jeff: Right? And so, so there’s still going to be dynamics where she might see one thing that seems really obvious and I’m still in a place where I’m like, no, no, I don’t see it. And, and in fact, yeah. Thing I’ve decided is what I’m staying with, you know, [00:22:00] whatever. So there’s like all over the place, but I mostly just want to say, just remember that, um, there are a lot of kids out there that, uh, deal with some of the stuff we talk about all the time and have no frame of reference for it. [00:22:13] Jeff: And, um, and almost no agency. [00:22:15] Brett: Yeah. Oof. [00:22:17] Jeff: Yeah, that’s my mental health check in. It was, it was hard to read. It was really hard to read over and over again. Um, which isn’t, you know, that’s, it’s, having to read it is a lot less problematic than having to experience it. But [00:22:29] Brett: I’m gonna link MaxQDA in the show notes because it is pretty amazing software for anyone doing text analysis of any kind. [00:22:41] Jeff: Yeah, one of the things I love to do in it, when I’m starting, especially when it’s interview transcripts with Well, mostly I’ve done this with interviews, transcripts with kids, either in the like juvenile justice system, so called, or now the foster system. It’s like, it has all these different ways. It’s like MaxQDA opens up a thousand [00:23:00] windows for you to look at text. [00:23:01] Jeff: And so I think traditionally the, not exactly, but like the most, I think assumed method of like coding and interviews. So, you know, you’re like, Oh, this section is about hurt. This section is about family, right? Is to read it. Front to bottom, or top to bottom. Um, but the way that I’ve come to do this work is almost exclusively to come at it. [00:23:21] Jeff: Sideways and diagonally and whatever else. And one of my favorite things to do with MaxQDA, which is just one simple feature. It’s not even one of the most powerful features is they create these sort of sentence diagrams so that you, you can put a word in and then it’ll show you where that word goes. [00:23:37] Jeff: Right. And like a really nice looking, almost like, who’s the Tufti, who’s the, whatever, like, it’s that, that style of like data visualization. And one of the things that I came to really, that I’ve come to really rely on is what I call I statements, which is like, The first thing I’ll do is look at that sentence tree for, I wish, I can’t, I never, I want, um, uh, and, [00:24:00] and, um, and it’s incredible when you take just something like, I wish, which I don’t mean at all to sound like, this isn’t like, um, The Children Are Our Future, kind of [00:24:10] Brett: Mm. Sure. Yeah. [00:24:11] Jeff: about what they wish, they’re talking about what hurts the most, often, right? [00:24:15] Jeff: Um, and to see the directions that the words I wish can lead to, and then to be able to, what, what’s been so powerful to me is like when you’re working with kids and stories, um, that are often like stories of harm, or they’re at least like entangled in harmful systems, like, Oftentimes people fall into the trap of putting a story in front of you, which can be kind of voyeuristic and, and I think a little, um, and it’s ethically just a little not good. [00:24:45] Jeff: Um, and, and just from a cosmic standpoint, like, don’t just put my story out there so that you can make people react a certain way. But now what I do when I’m helping people do either advocacy or maybe they’re trying to facilitate sessions with the people [00:25:00] that. Uh, have power over these kids or whatever is you can curate these statements like an I wish statement And and if you have and have done this and if you have sort of like a curated diagram of these Sentences and where I wish can go what you’ve done is created like A sort of map of the ecosystem of the child, right? [00:25:18] Jeff: Because they’re they’re not just going to be talking about the system And they’re going to remind you through this or it’s going to remind you of all the Basic needs that we all have as humans. But we totally just box these kids in into like, Oh, well, their primary need must just be, I don’t know what to be free of the system, to have a better judge, whatever the fuck it would be. [00:25:36] Jeff: And, and in reality, um, it’s so many like, uh, intertwined, uh, desires and longings and, and rights and needs. And anyway, and, and, and so Max QDA, cause I am really just talking about software, um, just, it’s been amazing for me as a person who loves. People’s, who loves to like work with people’s stories in a way that hopefully honors them, like it’s amazing to [00:26:00] see all the ways you can come. [00:26:01] Jeff: And, and just one last thing, Brett, through, through the wonder of Torrance, I have, I’m a huge, I’m a Tolstoy freak. I fucking [00:26:10] Brett: Sure. Sure. [00:26:11] Jeff: angry bearded man. Um, and And I’ve always wanted to be able to look across text files of his books by a certain translator. And in this case, it’s a couple, it’s like a married couple. [00:26:25] Jeff: Um, and I, through the wonder of torrents, I got, I got the EPUB files of all of these. Uh, and like Resurrection, War and Peace, Anna Karenina, we’ve all heard the names, right? And, um, and I put them into text files and I did I wish statements. And, and it was incredible because if I looked across a book, like, if I looked just at I wish statements and Anna Karenina, there were only like 13. [00:26:48] Jeff: But they actually created an enough of an outline of the story that it brought it all back to me. But the thing I’m doing next is like If anybody’s read Tolstoy, you will know what I’m talking about, like, and that sounds like a pretentious statement, and [00:27:00] I don’t mean it to be, and I had to create a book club to read Tolstoy because I could never get through of it. [00:27:03] Jeff: But anyway, the way that he can tell you what a piece of shit you are by describing how you use your lips like one of my favorite things about Tolstoy, and so I’ve always wanted to do like a comprehensive review of how he describes particularly your lower face. when he really hates you. Um, so stay tuned. [00:27:23] Jeff: Uh, maybe I’ll do a reading in a future [00:27:25] Brett: Excellent. [00:27:26] Jeff: Also Max QDA. Anyway, sorry, that was a long. Woo! [00:27:29] Sponsor: Notion [00:27:29] Brett: All right. Um, so we’re going to use some of that magic, magic of technology right now. And we’re going to get a, uh, sponsor read from Christina. [00:27:40] Christina: Hey everybody, it’s Christina here, and I’m not on the show this week because I’m on a train to Portland to get a new laptop. Uh, more details on that later, but I could not let things go without talking about, our sponsor of this week’s show, Notion, and their new, Q& A feature. So if you’re anything like me, you might already be familiar with Notion, [00:28:00] which is the sponsor of today’s episode, as I said. [00:28:02] Christina: I use this all the time for, for notes, for documents. I have internal wikis of various things that I collect and I really love the interface and I really love how easy it is, , to, create docs. But, but now I also like how easy it is to find things because of a new AI tool they’ve launched called Q& A. [00:28:19] Christina: So this is basically a personal assistant that responds really fast with exactly what you need right in your doc. So. Here’s a real world example from me. I have a Notion doc filled with links and information about various discounts that I get as a corporate employee. This is kind of a difficult document to like, suss through because it’s actually the combination of like five different documents that I’ve sourced from a bunch of different places. [00:28:46] Christina: So it’s not super well organized. Well, this is why this was perfect to use Q& A with because I can just ask Notion’s Q& A I can say, okay, show me my discount code or my [00:29:00] discount URL for Avis and it will give it to me and I don’t have to go searching for, okay, was it in the transportation section or was it in the car rental section or was it in some other discount section? [00:29:11] Christina: It’ll just give me the information when I ask the question and this is the sort of thing that it can do for anybody. It doesn’t just have to be, you know, your weird, you know, link collections and, and, and documents. It can also, use your own personal notes, your docs, your projects. All that is going to be together in one beautiful space, and then you can navigate that space using Q& A, um, to, ask questions maybe about, like, next month’s Like, roadmap, uh, that you’re doing for next quarter or next month or, you know, a marketing campaign proposal that you’re looking for. [00:29:40] Christina: Um, or, you know, like I said, like what I’m doing all the time, digging up long lost links because that’s a problem that I personally have and that, uh, that Notion definitely can help, can help me out with. So if you haven’t used Notion, um, I think that you should definitely give it a shot and Notion AI can now give you instant answers to your [00:30:00] questions. [00:30:00] Christina: Using information from across your wiki, your project docs, your meeting notes, etc. So you can try Notion AI for free when you go to Notion. com slash Overtired. That’s all lowercase letters. Notion. com slash Overtired to try the powerful, easy to use Notion AI today. And when you’re going to use our link, you are supporting our show. [00:30:23] Christina: So once again, that is Notion. com slash Overtired. Try out the Q& A feature. Try out the Notion AI stuff. It’s really slick. I’m a big fan. Thanks a lot, Notion. [00:30:32] Sponsor: Aroundsquare [00:30:32] Brett: You know that experience of learning something new that would have been so useful last week or finding something special that you hadn’t realized you’d been missing all these years? Well, today might be one of those days. [00:30:42] Brett: AroundSquare is a company you’ve probably never heard about. For certain people, the brand, the products and the ideas just really resonate. Since 2007, a round Square has been designing and producing beautiful, unusual functional goods for the mind and body. Their specialty is a range of intriguing little objects for [00:31:00] everyday carry. [00:31:01] Brett: Many of these are things that could be called skill toys. Dexterity trainers or fidget items, but they don’t really conform to those labels and none of them really do the product’s justice. They’re striking, minimalist objects more akin to jewelry than playthings, but they’re also serious tools designed for creative exploration and peaceful manipulation, things to keep your hands busy and the mind at ease by providing just the desired level of stimulation. [00:31:27] Brett: Around Square’s eclectic range goes way beyond this and includes stationary jewelry, functional clothing and much more. Check it out at www. aroundsquare. com and use the code overtired at checkout for 15 percent off. That’s aroundsquare. com, A R O U N D S Q U A R E dot com. [00:31:50] On Clean Installs [00:31:50] Jeff: It’s just so nice to hear your voice, Christina. I mean, it’s your absence here and now to have you back for just that moment. [00:31:57] Brett: So this is going to be, I think, a [00:32:00] pretty technical episode, um, now that we’re through the mental health corner, which is messy as hell. Um, as, as so many of us are, but Jeff, we’ve talked before about your clean installs, um, that are a matter of habit for you. Um, but. [00:32:22] Jeff: This is an [00:32:23] Brett: it. Got a little different, like something changed. [00:32:26] Jeff: Yeah, I got medication. So this is the funny thing is that I haven’t done a clean install of my computer since I started becoming, uh, since I started medication for bipolar. And, and what I recognize, and Brett knows this from working with me for years, is that what used to happen to me all the time, and I think these were, this was a result of manic episodes of some sort, which is that I’d be looking at my computer and all of a sudden I’d be like, It’s all wrong. [00:32:53] Jeff: It’s all messed up. I’ve configured everything weird. I got to start from scratch. And then I would, I would very [00:33:00] abruptly do a clean install, which is not the way to do a clean install, right? Um, and, and I would do that clean install maybe in the middle of a workday. Not thinking about the fact that the next morning I have a Zoom meeting and I won’t have downloaded Zoom and I won’t yet have logged into my work email [00:33:16] Brett: Oh [00:33:16] Jeff: Mac so that I can quickly get into Google Drive or whatever the fuck it is people make me do, um, and, and, and it would become this horrible, um like obstacle course for me for weeks. [00:33:28] Jeff: And I will have messed up my basic like file system. I will have thrown everything onto an external hard drive called like clean install, you [00:33:34] Brett: mm-Hmm. [00:33:35] Jeff: Pro 2013 or whatever. um, and then I start from scratch without properly moving everything over. And it was actually very, like in its own way, when they talk about like, um, manic episodes, like that you would have sort of a tendency to, um, take risks. [00:33:54] Jeff: Right. [00:33:54] Brett: Right. [00:33:55] Jeff: It really disrupted my. My work life for probably two weeks at a time, whenever I would [00:34:00] do that. And when I would do it, I’d be like, Oh God, it’s coming. I know I got to do a clean install. Um, so anyway, I just did the first one in like two years and I’m not going to lie. I’m not sure it was the best and most stable decision, but I. [00:34:13] Jeff: I did it in a way that was very mindful. I got everything back up and running real quick. So I’m not running into like, oh, I never put this thing back on, right? Um, Homebrew makes that nice. Brewfiles, right? Like there’s, I’ve also developed ways to protect myself. [00:34:28] Brett: with like a brew file, like where you like, yeah, [00:34:31] Jeff: so if you use Homebrew, if you don’t use Homebrew, Package Manager like helps you, you know, download all kinds of apps and tools and you can create whatever you’ve downloaded for me over the last two years since the last clean install or two and a half is all on one list and I can just say, please install [00:34:46] Brett: It can, it can even do Mac app store [00:34:49] Jeff: Yes, if you install MAS. [00:34:51] Brett: Yep. [00:34:51] Jeff: You can even do Mac App Store apps. So anyway, why are we talking about this? Because before we came on, Brett and I were talking, and I said, Brett, I did a clean install. [00:35:00] Like, I felt like I had to come clean. And no pun intended. And what was cool this time is I realized It’d been so long. [00:35:08] Jeff: So I realized how many apps were just running back there that I’d really forgotten about that were really impacting my experience of my computer in a way that were really great. And like the example I gave Brett was like the App Peek, which is like a, an app you can get from the app store. And it, it not only allows you to do quick look, quick look on a lot of files, you know, you press the space bar and your file comes up a little preview, but it allows you, I mean, it’s like, there’ll be, um, if it’s code, it’s got the like, Proper sort of [00:35:37] Brett: syntax highlight. [00:35:38] Jeff: can copy and paste. [00:35:39] Jeff: If it’s a spreadsheet, you can do like a column. Like it’s incredible. [00:35:44] Brett: And if it’s Markdown and it has multiple headers, you get a table of contents for viewing your Markdown file and you can copy paste out of it, which is a big deal since like Mavericks, like when they stopped allowing select and copy and paste in quick look [00:35:59] Jeff: [00:36:00] Yeah. So, well, okay, that’s a question for you. So, that, there was a point at which QuickLook suddenly did not, I was like, [00:36:05] Brett: Yeah, I think it was around, I think it was around Mavericks, yeah. [00:36:10] Jeff: And so, having forgotten that it was Peek that was allowing me to do this, because I use QuickLook all the time in this context. When I did my first QuickLook and it just showed the icon of the file. [00:36:21] Brett: Yeah. [00:36:22] Jeff: do I, how do I get back to the thing? What the hell happened? Um, and so Peak was just a really great example of just something just absolutely, like, wonderful impacting my life in the background. Do you have, what’s something that you didn’t build that, um, that has that impact for you? [00:36:38] Jeff: That’s just kind of back there, making your life different on your computer? [00:36:42] Brett: I guess I would say Hazel. [00:36:44] Jeff: Hazel. [00:36:45] Brett: Haz [00:36:46] Jeff: it. I’m sure most people know what it is who are listening, but [00:36:48] The Magic of Hazel [00:36:48] Brett: So, Hazel watches for file changes and acts on files. Um, and you can have any set of criteria. If the file matches this file name, [00:37:00] if it has this label, if it’s this old. Um, and then have it run any series of actions on that file. Um, I would say Like, for me, my most common Hazel task is if I name an image file in the name, if it says percent, percent, and then a series of characters like R600 means resize to 600, O means optimize. [00:37:29] Brett: C means convert to JPEG. H means create 1x and 2x images. Half. H for half. And so I have just gotten in the habit of when I save a file to my desktop, I give it A name with percent percent and then the series of characters and Hazel just picks that up and I come out with, um, all of the necessary files for publication to whatever medium, um, and I [00:38:00] don’t Think about it being Hazel when I do that. [00:38:02] Brett: It just, it’s just the way I save files. Um, files in my download folder get labeled based on their age and anything that ends up with a red tag need, either needs to be deleted or dealt with. Um, anything with a blue tag gets ignored. Like, so if something is, this is a permanently a part of this folder. I just give it a blue tag and it gets ignored. [00:38:27] Brett: Everything else gets aged over time, one week, one month. Three months. Um, so I can see, like, what needs to be most urgently dealt with. Um, so yeah, Hazel is one of those things that is integral to my, uh, daily system that, in general, I haven’t actually opened Hazel, probably for months. [00:38:52] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:54] Brett: like, you get It set [00:38:55] Jeff: doesn’t break. [00:38:56] Brett: just works. [00:38:57] Brett: It just works. [00:38:58] Jeff: I, one of the silly things I use [00:39:00] Hazel for is like, I’m one of these, um, Just monsters who keeps a folder on my desktop called Desktop. And, um, and, and Hazel just knows like if something’s been on my desktop that isn’t that folder for more than a day, I’m just going to put it in that folder. [00:39:17] Jeff: And that just becomes Where all that stuff lives and with downloads, I have a downloads like archive folder inside of it because I don’t want to search too much. And if it’s been there for more than a day, it just moves in. [00:39:26] Brett: mine is just called, mine is called Stuff2Review, and if it sits, if it sits in my downloads folder long enough, it gets moved to Stuff2Review, and I should have one that just automatically deletes anything after three [00:39:39] Brett: months. [00:39:39] Jeff: Yeah. I wish I had that in my physical space as well. If I have not laid a finger on this, [00:39:45] Brett: I do that, I, I do that with organizing, uh, when I, like cleaning my office, anything that I’m not currently using gets put into a series of boxes, and if over the next three months, I have [00:40:00] to open that box and dig through and find that thing, that thing gets moved into a more permanent location. If after three months, I haven’t looked for that thing once. [00:40:11] Brett: And I’ve forgotten it even exists. That box can go to Goodwill. Um, [00:40:16] Jeff: it. I heard of I’ve heard of people doing this. I almost think I can and I can’t. [00:40:21] Brett: it’s not easy. Like, it takes, like, I have to separate from my, uh, archival instincts. Like, I have this, this need to keep everything I’ve ever owned or ever written or ever read, like, somewhere where I can access it in the future. But the fact is, so much of it I just don’t need in my day to day space or my day to day, like, data life. [00:40:49] Brett: Um, and I do the same with, like, Envy Ultra notes. Um, every once in a while, I’ll just do a spotlight search for anything that hasn’t been updated or [00:41:00] modified in the last year, move it, move it to an archive folder, not delete it. Just move it out of the space. So if I need it, I have to search for it. And if I search for it, it gets moved back into regular rotation. [00:41:14] Brett: But after three months, that whole folder just gets moved to like, I don’t delete it, but it gets moved to like this analogy, uh, as like archival storage. [00:41:26] Jeff: Now, theoretically, what you could do with a, maybe you could do this with Hazel, you could certainly script it, is like, you’ve got that whole system going where like, if it hasn’t been searched, you’re moving it over. But you could also make it that if you do land on it in a search, it just automatically gets put back in. [00:41:40] Brett: Yeah, it, it’s feasible. You could do that. [00:41:44] Jeff: Because you can actually script Hazel too, right? So it’s like, yeah. [00:41:47] Brett: you might have to use some tagging to make it work, but [00:41:50] Jeff: Brett, I know you’re okay using some [00:41:53] Brett: oh, absolutely. [00:41:55] Brett: I [00:41:55] Jeff: just found my notes when I made you early when we started working together. I’m like, we’re going to spend [00:42:00] at least three hours with you talking to me about tagging. [00:42:03] Brett: I [00:42:03] Jeff: such good notes. [00:42:04] Brett: I have given up. I’ve given up on trying to convince people about tagging. If you haven’t gotten it at this point, um, you’re, you’re, you’re probably not a tagger, but I still, I still consider it like vital to a real file management system. [00:42:20] Jeff: there anything, um, and this is kind of probably an ignorant question, but is there anything about the way the OS has changed over the years, besides there was one major change in tagging. Um, but like, is there anything that’s changed your sense of. How tagging can be useful and how your own system works. [00:42:40] Brett: Like, so, there was, we used to use OpenMetaTagging, which put, uh, K O M user tag, no, O M user tags. Attribute onto files, and that’s how, and tags were able to move with the file wherever it went in the system. And then, I think it was [00:43:00] Mavericks again, where Apple kind of Sherlocked that and made the KOM user tags, and it worked exactly the same as OpenMeta, and OpenMeta became irrelevant instantly. [00:43:12] Brett: Since, since that time, I don’t think anything has changed other than Apple increasing adoption of this file attribute on iOS. So now your tags that you apply in Finder on your Mac show up on iOS and vice versa. Um, other than that, no, like nothing has changed that either promotes or detracts from the idea of tagging. [00:43:40] Jeff: And, and we, I don’t have to get into your specific way of tagging, but you, you changed my life with your tagging approach, especially from my work archives. It’s just amazing the way I can navigate through them now. Um, it’s really awesome. [00:43:53] Brett: It’s so much more intuitive than nested folders. [00:43:57] Jeff: Yes, which, yeah, yeah, which is like, what a [00:44:00] mess. And I still sometimes, if I’m in a hurry, I make a bunch of nested folders and I look at it and I’m like, what have I just done? This [00:44:06] Brett: Yeah. I, so I wrote an app, or I wrote a utility a long time ago, a time ago called TagFiler. Um, that That lets you tag using colon separated, like, lengthy tags and then automatically files them into a relatively shallow folder system. Uh, you can go as deep as you want, but the idea is to keep it relatively shallow but still organized so that if you ever were to You don’t lose all your tags, like you, you run them through like Dropbox and they come back with no tags. [00:44:43] Brett: You still have a shallow folder system to help separate your files. So that’s like the initial logic behind it. But in practice, like what it does, I don’t, I don’t look for folders. [00:45:00] I, when I want to find a file, I don’t look for folders. I look based on tags and macOS, if you separate, if you have a tag name that has a colon in it, you [00:45:11] Brett: can search, [00:45:12] Jeff: of the Brett Terpstra [00:45:13] Brett: can, you can search the portions of the tag name separated by colon. [00:45:18] Brett: So if the tag name is work, colon. mdless colon design, a complete theoretical tag. You can search any of those three parts. You can search mdless, you can search design, and you can group files based on this kind of hierarchical tag that you’ve created. Um, uh, macOS, their tagging system isn’t hierarchical. [00:45:45] Brett: It’s, it’s very flat, but using punctuation, right. But using punctuation of any kind, you kind of can nest tags. And it works really well. [00:45:56] Jeff: Well, and you know what? I was, I was revisiting Bear, the app Bear, which [00:45:59] Brett: [00:46:00] Yeah, yeah, [00:46:01] Jeff: way to write [00:46:02] Brett: it is. [00:46:02] Jeff: in Markdown files, but they, they introduced like this a few years ago, they introduced nested tabs where if, so normally a tab with them is like you do hash and then the, the word and that’s the tag, but if you then put a slash in, it not only becomes an actual nested tag, but in your like sidebar, it becomes a sort of nested folder of tags, which reminded me of your thing. [00:46:20] Jeff: Did they steal it from you or what? [00:46:21] Brett: No, no, that’s theirs, but did you see the marked preprocessor I wrote for integration with Bear? [00:46:30] Jeff: No! [00:46:30] Brett: Uh, there’s a, I’ll link it on my blog, let me make a quick note, but [00:46:35] Brett: um, Uh, about a month ago maybe? [00:46:38] Jeff: No, how did I miss this? Well, I only just started using bear again. I go back and forth, [00:46:43] Brett: Yeah, so I wrote a preprocessor for Mark that handles tags and nested tags and creates actual links, so if you click it in the preview document, it will open that nested tag in Bear, [00:46:56] Jeff: You motherfucker. [00:46:58] Brett: I created a new [00:47:00] preview style that exactly mimics Bear’s Markdown Preview, and Bear, Bear a long time ago integrated Marks, so you [00:47:08] Brett: can go to Note, Preview, and Marked, and you can see your note, but I added a preprocessor that handles all, like, highlighter, like, equals, equals, [00:47:18] Jeff: Yep. [00:47:19] Brett: uh, it handles all of the special Bear [00:47:21] Brett: syntax. [00:47:22] Jeff: Okay, good to know. [00:47:24] Brett: Yeah, you should check it out. I’ll, I’ll link, I’ll link it in the show notes. [00:47:27] Jeff: will you educate me, even though I could Google this, when you said, um, this term, Sherlocked, which gets used, what does it mean? Where does it come from? [00:47:36] Brett: so there was this app called Sherlock, um, that at, at one point in Apple’s OS development, I can’t remember what year this was, uh, but they turned it into Spotlight, and they didn’t buy Sherlock, they just duplicated it. And put Sherlock out of business [00:48:00] by just making it part of the operating system, which in the case of OpenMeta, they didn’t, OpenMeta was an open source standard, but they never acknowledged it. [00:48:11] Brett: They just made it part of the operating system, invalidated its existence. You know, outside of the base OS and, and like, they’ve done it multiple times over the years. I, I couldn’t even name all of the, all of the innovations in Mac OS that are the result of them just duplicating another app’s functionality, like a third party app that really nailed something. [00:48:39] Brett: And instead of buying it, they just stole it. That’s, that’s Sherlocking. [00:48:44] Jeff: Okay, well, while we’re doing this, what is dogfooding? [00:48:47] Brett: I don’t know. [00:48:48] Jeff: Hmm. What is dogfooding? Software engineers are hungry for excellence. Dogs are hungry for dogfood. No, that’s not what I’m looking at. Software development, the jet brain, the jet brain’s way, [00:49:00] dogfooding. A practice especially popular in software development industry. [00:49:03] Jeff: It means that a company fully tests its products first on itself, and now I’ve run out of the preview text. Hold on. So you not heard this term? Let’s see. It means that a company fully tests its products first on itself, using them as end users would, and effectively the company eats its own dog food. [00:49:19] Brett: Okay. [00:49:21] Less for Markdown [00:49:21] Jeff: Oh man. That’s, that’s fine. Sorry. That was way out. So let, I want to ask you a question. Um, you’ve been, you’ve been making these updates to your tool MD, MDless. And, and I, I love when you suddenly have a bunch of blog posts because you’re making changes to something and you’re making always very thoughtful changes, like it’s never, I know that if you posted about an update, I’m not going to be like, why am I reading this? [00:49:43] Jeff: It’s because it’s not only going to be an awesome update to that tool if I use it, but paradigmatically. It’s going to be inspiring and interesting. So will you talk about what MDLESS is first, when you made it and why, and what did, what caused you to make these changes and what are they? [00:50:00] Go ahead, caller. [00:50:02] Brett: So mdless is, okay, so if you’re, if you use the command line, you’re familiar with the command less and less is basically paginates any text document and allows you, and it has like built in tools for like vim style searching and Up and down navigation and, um, it’s just kind of like the default pager for most Linux and macOS systems. [00:50:31] Brett: Um, but it doesn’t do anything special with markdown. So, I wanted a markdownless, uh, something that would Process and Highlight, Syntax, Highlight, Markdown in a more readable way. So that say my, the readme file for the open source project I was working on, it didn’t have to open up in Markd or in another editor. [00:50:56] Brett: I could just view it on the command line, but view it [00:51:00] with some styling. Um, and that’s where MDless began. And the original version of MDless was all based on regular expressions. [00:51:09] Jeff: Oh my God. Really? Wow. [00:51:12] Brett: it would, it would detect, like, this is a code block, this is a list item based on regular expressions, and that led to a lot of edge cases, uh, where it was not behaving the way a Markdown processor would, um, so I [00:51:29] Brett: recently [00:51:29] Jeff: bit, something about Markdown [00:51:31] Brett: Yeah, yeah, so I, I recently re, remade it. [00:51:35] Brett: Um, there’s a Ruby library called, uh, Red Carpet, which is a red cloth, Uh, kind of revision that does all, uh, it’s a Markdown processor. [00:51:48] Brett: It’s, it’s one of the original like Ruby Markdown processors. Um, and Red Carpet, uh, it’ll basically generate the [00:52:00] outline for an HTML document from a Markdown file, but then it lets you write your own. [00:52:07] Brett: Um, Renderers, so you can create a renderer that, uh, you know, it sends you a request for a paragraph and you tell it what to output for a paragraph or a list or a list item. And so I basically made that work with command line and output like ANSI escape codes to colorize and and output all these elements. [00:52:32] Brett: So it, it lifted the burden of markdown, uh, Uh, interpretation parsing for me and let me just work on the output. Um, it got really complicated, like, with things like lists. Uh, it doesn’t, when it calls for rendering a list item, or an entire list, it doesn’t tell you if that list is nested, it doesn’t [00:53:00] tell you, uh, an index for the list item, it doesn’t give you any of that, so I had to write in all of these things that output Markers that then I could go through with regular expressions and replace with correct indexes for like numeric lists and indentation. [00:53:20] Brett: Like I had to be able to create, because in HTML, you just put a UL tag around the list and if it’s already inside another list, it’ll indent, uh, based on your styling. You can’t do that in terminals. So I had to write. A whole series of functions that would indent and then correctly index each list item, uh, which got, it, it, I spent three days getting numeric lists to work properly when they were nested and when they were interrupted by another list. [00:53:56] Brett: Um, [00:53:57] Jeff: is the thing that always goes wrong [00:53:59] Brett: [00:54:00] yeah. [00:54:00] Jeff: when rendering Markdown, like a preview, right? [00:54:02] Brett: So I was dreaming for two nights, I was dreaming about the problem and, and I came up the first night. I thought I had the solution when I woke up and I tried to implement it and realized immediately that there were major flaws in the plan. And I, I futzed with it for a day and then went back to bed and had a dream the second night that led me to the final solution. [00:54:28] Brett: And now it is, it’s pretty flawless now. It’s a sturdy solution. [00:54:33] Jeff: that’s awesome. And is, are lists the hard, when you’re trying to create something that processes Markdown for a preview, are lists the hardest thing? Is [00:54:41] Brett: Um, so the nested elements are the hardest thing, which are a part of lists. Um, because within a list, you can nest paragraphs and you can nest code blocks. And to maintain list formatting, when you’re dealing with. [00:55:00] Nested block elements, um, yeah, that is, I think, the hardest part. Um, for a command line parser, the second hardest part is dealing with And the escape codes. [00:55:13] Brett: So like you have a, you have a paragraph and you start it with the paragraph coloring, but then you hit a bold tag. And so you switch to the bold, like maybe it’s bold, maybe it’s a different color, maybe it’s underlined. After that tag ends, you have to go back to the paragraph coloring, but there’s no marker that says, okay, now it’s back to a paragraph you’ve just inserted an escape code. [00:55:40] Brett: into the paragraph that changes the color and then leaves it as is for the rest of the paragraph. So I, I had to write Uh, functions that looked, when there was a span element inside of a paragraph, it had to look at the text before that element happened, determine [00:56:00] what ANSI escape code would replicate the text right before that tag, and then reinsert it after that tag. [00:56:07] Brett: Um, it’s, [00:56:09] Jeff: What I love about this is that this is in such stark contrast to the simplicity and mission of Markdown itself. [00:56:15] Brett: right? Yeah, [00:56:18] Brett: yeah. [00:56:18] Jeff: amazing. [00:56:19] Brett: It gets complicated. Yep, you bet. [00:56:22] Jeff: I have a sort of related question. I don’t know where we are at on time. I don’t see a timer right [00:56:26] Brett: 52 minutes. [00:56:28] Jeff: Okay, just a, maybe we can save this, but I, if anybody’s still listening, they will also want the answer to this question. Anybody who isn’t interested is gone. [00:56:36] Jeff: Um, I, the thing that I have, I mean, the, the real, like, issue I want to be so much more seamless, and, and it will allow me to work in Markdown as a collaborator as much as I want, is for exports to be dependable. If I want to export a document I’ve created in Markdown into a PDF or a Word document, or whatever it is. [00:56:57] Jeff: And I’ve, I’ve never quite, [00:57:00] I mean, I think Mark does a great job with PDF stuff. I’ve, I don’t know that I’ve tried with Marked with, with DocX, [00:57:06] Brett: Oh, it’s not great. I’ll [00:57:08] Brett: tell ya, it’s not [00:57:09] Jeff: of Marked right now. So, cause I was starting to use Bear again and I wrote a whole ass like memo to a client and I’m like, Oh, shit. I just wrote this whole thing in Markdown and not in a Google doc. [00:57:19] Jeff: And so when it came time to export it, I was like, this looks like shit. And, and I’m wondering if, is there hope if I were to really nail down. A very specific style, a very specific, like say Pandoc template or something. Like, is there, is there a mountaintop I could get to where I was like, every time I write a memo in, for a client in Markdown and I export it, it does not look like some weird ass fucking Frankenstein that I didn’t have time to fix because I finish everything the second before I need to send it. [00:57:50] Brett: is your answer. [00:57:51] Jeff: And, and with Pandoc, what I’ve done in the past, you, you create. Like, say if it’s a Word document, you create the template, the basic template. These are what the headers look at, whatever. [00:58:00] Um, and I wonder if, so I’ve had good luck with Pandoc for sure, if it’s not a complex document. Um, if there aren’t a lot of images, if there aren’t, it’s images that start to really mess things up, or like graphics or whatever. [00:58:11] Jeff: Um, but, but, are you, are you encouraging me to go a little harder with Pandoc to try to find my special place in that? I will, I will climb that mountain. [00:58:22] Brett: There is [00:58:22] Jeff: get me up that mountain. [00:58:23] Brett: There is no substitute for Pandoc, especially when it comes to Word documents. Ulysses does an excellent job of creating structured Word documents. What Markt creates is basically an RTF file with Docx encoding. Um, but it’s, like, your H1 headers aren’t Objects that you can then style with a template. [00:58:48] Brett: It’s, it’s, it’s a hack. It’s a, it’s a bit of a mess. Um, I’ve, I’ve never promoted Mark’s, um, DocX capabilities. Pandoc, [00:59:00] if I need to create an EPUB, if I need to create a DocX file, If I need to create anything other than your basic PDF and HTML, Um, Pandoc. It does everything. And, and with, with a little tweaking, you can create a, a single command. [00:59:17] Brett: You can have like, make, makememo. sh and, and it’ll pull in your docx templates and make you the perfect document. [00:59:29] Jeff: I need to go deeper. I’ve used it forever for very simple things. I use Pandoc commands just to quickly convert like a bunch of RTF files to Markdown or a bunch of Word doc files to Markdown. I usually go that direction and [00:59:39] Brett: and it’s great for that too. Yeah. [00:59:42] Jeff: Um, that’s great. Thank you. For anybody who’s been listening this long and feels like we’re just trying to signal the other secret Soviet spies that we work with, with all of these various code words, uh, sorry. [00:59:53] Brett: Oh, I put, I put PEP 440 on our [00:59:58] Brett: topic list. We’re [01:00:00] not going to get into it, but I’m going to summarize. I just discovered this today because of a Sublime Text update. But are you familiar with semantic versioning? Like [01:00:13] Jeff: Only, not in a way I could speak it. [01:00:15] Brett: So like the, uh, a version number that’s like 2. 0. 12. You have your major, your minor, and your patch. [01:00:24] Brett: Two. [01:00:25] Jeff: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, got it, got it, got it. Yep. [01:00:28] Brett: So that’s pretty simple. And that’s what Apple uses. That’s what most software developers use. There’s this new standard that came out of the Python project called PEP440, P E P 4 4 0. And it adds all of these like. Epoch versioning, so if you’re using semantic versioning, but you’ve always used date format, so you like have like year, month, day, or whatever as your version numbers. [01:00:55] Brett: Now you can add an epoch to that, so you add like one exclamation point, [01:01:00] and then you can switch to like a regular semantic versioning, and it will know when it sorts them. That 1. 0. 2 is later than 2023. 12. And, and it adds, it adds handling for, uh, alpha, beta and release candidates. It adds handling for local versioning and dev versioning, and it is. [01:01:25] Brett: It’s complex. I’ve written parsers for semantic versioning for multiple of my apps, especially my command line utilities that can determine this version number is newer or older than this version number. And I can use it in rake files for things like bumping a version number by patch or minor, major. Um, this would require, uh, Like three times as much code to accomplish. [01:01:52] Brett: I’m, I’m kind of, it, it makes sense as a versioning standard. Like it covers, it covers all these edge cases, [01:02:00] but it’s so complicated. Um, but that’s a boring topic. We should definitely [01:02:05] Jeff: Although I have to say like epoch, like epoch, uh, IDs or numbering sounds. So, uh, that sounds like such hubris, like I feel like what if you even then went further and you’re like, you know, like, uh, what are the, what do they call, like the, the period of like the bronze age, the priest, or age? What are these, the, what kind of eras? [01:02:21] Jeff: I guess epoch seems like it’s more important than an era. Um, anyway, all right. Grab up aptitude. This has been all gude. [01:02:30] Brett: it, it kind of [01:02:31] Brett: has, [01:02:31] Jeff: still got [01:02:32] Brett: we got a lot of app links in here. You want to go first? [01:02:35] Grapptitude [01:02:35] Jeff: Yeah. Well, I already mentioned, um, Peak, which I really recommend. It’s on Setapp, which I also really recommend. That was the one other fun thing about doing this clean install was like, Oh, I just opened Setapp. [01:02:46] Jeff: It’s like a brew file and Setapp and then whatever, a little bit. Um, but there’s something I hadn’t been using that felt like a little too intrusive, but I really love, which is called Paste. And it basically remembers, like, God [01:03:00] help you, like, a lot of your Clipboard history. And if you hit the keyboard shortcut or you, you click it in the menu bar, this little, um, like graphical interface comes up at the bottom of your screen, which is in my case, my last, like, I think 10 clipboard ads, uh, sorry, the last like 10 things I added to my clipboard and I can just hit one of them and, and, and use it again, or when this is, I think even better, and I used to use some other. [01:03:29] Jeff: tool for this, maybe it was in Alfred. I used to use Alfred for this, but like, if I need to, if I’m looking at a document and I want a paragraph from up here, paragraph from down here, paragraph from the bottom, and then I want to paste them together, um, I can use this. I can just be like, one, two, three, there they all are. [01:03:44] Jeff: Um, And, uh, and I love it. So anyway, it’s a really fun tool and, um, man, set up has gotten good. I like, I, it’s been a while since I did, I went through every app and set up just to like, see, is there anything I want that I don’t use, or is there anything I want to use that I used to use? And I forgot [01:04:00] about, and, um, instead of first came out, I was like, eh, there’s like five things I really want on here. [01:04:05] Jeff: And I already own licenses to them. Um, but I loved how they worked and you described how as a developer, it’s a, it’s a better option in terms of. Getting paid. Um, and so I, I became dedicated based on that. So even if I have a license to hoot a spot or to clean shot or whatever it is, I, I use that, um, version now. [01:04:24] Jeff: Um, but I, if nobody uses Setapp, it’s like a subscription service and you can use a zillion apps [01:04:31] Brett: like 10 a month. [01:04:33] Jeff: like the Netflix of apps! [01:04:35] Brett: save so much money [01:04:37] Brett: because, because half the apps on there are subscription anyway. And, and you would be paying five to 10 a month per app. But with Setapp, you pay us a flat 10 a month and you have access. It’s up to over 200 apps now. [01:04:52] Jeff: God, we’re throwing sponsor money away right [01:04:53] Brett: I know, right? [01:04:56] Jeff: we’ll send this to you, Setapp, and if you’d like to hear this and more, [01:05:00] um, yeah, [01:05:01] Brett: as a counterpoint to your pick, um, I don’t, I’m sure Alfred has all the capabilities, but I use LaunchBar, and with LaunchBar on my system, I can hit Command Option Backslash, and I get all, everything that’s been in my clipboard, and And I can use, I can use type of head searching to find exactly what I copied, you know, 10 copies ago, I can find it and hit enter and it’ll paste it. [01:05:29] Brett: And it gives me command CC so I can highlight a paragraph, hit command C and then go highlight another paragraph, hit command CC, and it will append it in the clipboard to that previous paragraph. So I just keep hitting command CC until I’ve got everything I want to combine. Then when, when I hit command V it pastes. [01:05:50] Brett: The combined output. Um, PopClip. PopClip has functionality for concatenated copies too.[01:06:00] [01:06:00] Jeff: yes. I have, I am trying to operate without PopClip right now after my clean install. Uh, just out of curiosity. [01:06:06] Brett: Okay. [01:06:07] Jeff: use it all the time. I mean, I use it all the time, but I was like, I, it’s actually because, it’s not because I don’t love it, it’s because I want to know just how much it does for me, you know? [01:06:16] Jeff: Like, I want to, I want to appreciate it again. [01:06:18] Brett: You’re funny. It’s app mindfulness. [01:06:21] Jeff: App Mindfulness. That’s, that’s it. That’s it. Oh, that’s, I’m glad you reminded me of that because, and it actually feels less like a sort of counterpoint and more as, I can imagine using that more. I’m remembering now the Alfred, whatever plugin I used was something like that. Although this thing where it pops up a bar along the bottom and it’s all of you, it’s like looking at your search history. [01:06:42] Jeff: It’s like, Oh, wow, I was, why was I searching, uh, you know, like odd sizes of metric bolts, uh, [01:06:49] Brett: there was a, there was a utility, um, in the early days of my use of Mac OS. [01:06:58] Brett: Um, [01:07:00] no, no, there was, there was one that was specifically for clipboard. It was called like Clipboard Plus or something. And it gave you, like, when you would hit the shortcut, it would give you a sidebar on your screen with like little previews of images and text. [01:07:15] Brett: And, and rich text that you had copied and you could just click one and paste it. Um, I find the launch bar integration a lot more because I use launch like launch bar is always up for me. So it just makes sense that I would use its integrated features. Um, but yeah, it’s nice to have that little preview window and everything. [01:07:36] Jeff: Yeah. Okay, wait, now what’s your gratitude? Sorry, I just [01:07:39] Brett: Oh, so I’m torn between two. I’m going to go with Fathom Analytics. Um, this will be for a certain segment of our audience, but if you run a blog and, or you run an online shop, or you do anything where you use Google Analytics, you are giving [01:08:00] away your customer and your reader’s data to Google. For all kinds of nefarious purposes. [01:08:07] Brett: So I went out searching, when I really locked down privacy on brettterpstra. com, I, I knew I had to get rid of Google Analytics and I went out searching for a replacement and there are multiple options, but the one I landed on is called Fathom, F A T H O M, and it is. Very privacy oriented. It doesn’t collect any demographic info. [01:08:32] Brett: I mean, it’s, it’s a significantly less amount of info than you would get from Google Analytics. But for me, what I really needed to know was what pages were popular, how many people were visiting it, uh, where they went, uh, from one page to another, and, um, they recently added You can set up custom events without creating them [01:09:00] first in the interface. [01:09:01] Brett: Like normally, previously you would have to create the event and then add the code for that event into your JavaScript so that when that event happened, it would trigger. [01:09:12] Jeff: Yeah, [01:09:13] Brett: Now you can just write JavaScript, add a name for the event, add a value if you want, optionally, a value to the event, and it will just show up in your dashboard as this event happened this many times. [01:09:26] Brett: And you can create unlimited number of events so you can have them dynamically created. Like right now, every project on my website gets a custom event. So I can see exactly how many downloads. Each individual project got in a day and it makes, yeah, it’s super nice. [01:09:47] Brett: And, [01:09:48] Jeff: in that? [01:09:49] Brett: um, yeah, uh, less surprising. NVL still gets like 50 downloads a day. [01:09:56] Brett: Um, uh, search link, I was [01:10:00] surprised how many people were downloading search link and the Markdown service tools are surprisingly popular, even though I haven’t updated them forever. [01:10:08] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They’re great. Yeah, [01:10:11] Brett: And, and I recently discovered I can get Statistics on how many people have installed my gems, my ruby gems. I, those had always been untrackable to me, but I realized that like on the main gem site, I forget, rubygems. [01:10:30] Brett: org or whatever. Um, it’ll actually tell you how many people have downloaded total and how many people have downloaded the current version. And it turns out I have like half a million [01:10:41] Brett: gem, gem downloads. I know. [01:10:43] Jeff: Wow. [01:10:45] Brett: I know it was crazy. I know, I mean, there are blogs out there that get that many hits in a [01:10:50] Jeff: Oh, yeah, [01:10:51] Brett: for me, that’s, that’s kind of a big deal, [01:10:54] Brett: so. [01:10:55] Jeff: Yeah, that’s amazing. [01:10:56] Brett: Yeah, so my pick is Fathom Analytics. Um, [01:11:00] I, if you are looking into increasing user privacy and you care about things like that, uh, Fathom. It’s like, I think I pay 140 a year. So I don’t remember what the monthly cost is, and I’m not going to do the math in my head. Um, but it’s not free. Google Analytics is free, but you’re selling your users [01:11:25] Brett: data. [01:11:25] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [01:11:27] Brett: and that wasn’t, that wasn’t a compromise I wanted to make. [01:11:31] Jeff: Um, just a quick thing. I downloaded NV Alt for fun. I’m one of those people about two weeks ago. So I’m on your, I’m on your list there. And after, you know, many years and also becoming an NV Altra user. But man, I was NV Alt. Ooh, I was like, I’m going to try this out. I walked in. It was like, it was like a childhood home. [01:11:51] Jeff: But like, nothing’s changed. The furniture hasn’t changed. It’s just, everything’s a little dusty and, and smaller than you thought. That’s like how it felt. It’s like, [01:12:00] it was an amazing experience. Anyway. [01:12:03] Brett: Yeah. Uh, Envy Ultra is different enough from Envy Alt that. I, I’ve given up on going back to NvAlt. I haven’t run NvAlt for probably over a year. Um, just because there are things about NvAltra that, there are things about NvAlt that NvAltra is missing and I find it frustrating, but I don’t have the power to change, [01:12:28] Jeff: Encrypted notes. [01:12:29] Brett: sure, uh, simple node integration, which has recently, um, as one user put it, it has been in shitified. Um. [01:12:40] Jeff: I just looked at Simple Note yesterday because I, I, I’m clean installing. I’m like, let’s look at everything, you know? [01:12:46] Brett: so like NvUltra, like you can sync with iCloud or Dropbox or Google Drive or whatever sync system makes sense for you, um, and honestly for me, uh, syncing with [01:13:00] iCloud and then tying OneWriter on my phone into the [01:13:05] Brett: same, yeah, into the same box, like we have a version of NvUltra for iOS, but OneWriter is always going to be better than what we put out, like we want to complete the ecosystem But OneWriter is such a great [01:13:21] Brett: app. [01:13:21] Brett: I, [01:13:21] Jeff: way where like one writer on the Mac is not, [01:13:23] Brett: no, yeah, [01:13:25] Brett: but that, but the two work together [01:13:28] Jeff: Yeah, [01:13:29] Brett: They’re perfect [01:13:29] Jeff: your folder of notes. Put it wherever you want. [01:13:31] Brett: that is, that is, portability man. That’s the beauty of it all [01:13:35] Jeff: it’s great for someone like me who gets impatient and tries a million like notes apps is it’s always just off the same folder. And so there’s no, no problem. No [01:13:44] Brett: Honestly, if, if, if Notes app on Mac, which has come a long [01:13:50] Jeff: Oh man, [01:13:51] Brett: it is a fantastic app these [01:13:54] Jeff: So good. [01:13:54] Brett: If it could work with individual text files, I would be [01:14:00] sold. [01:14:00] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure Tim Cook is still listening. Uh, so, Timmy Boy, T Dog, T Bone. [01:14:08] Brett: Alright. Well, that was, that was good. I, [01:14:11] Jeff: I love a good nerdy overtired. [01:14:13] Brett: we miss Christina, but yeah, we, we didn’t have any pop culture this episode. [01:14:19] Jeff: That’s true. We’re the pop culture. [01:14:22] Brett: I feel poppy. [01:14:23] Jeff: Poppy, super poppy, poppy. [01:14:25] Brett: Hey Jeff, get some sleep. [01:14:27] Jeff: Yeah, but not till later. [01:14:29] Brett: Fair enough. [01:14:41] Christina: Hey everybody, it’s Christina here, and I’m not on the show this week because I’m on a train to Portland to get a new laptop. Uh, more details on that later, but I could not let things go without talking about, um, our, our sponsor of this week’s show, Notion, and their new, uh, Q& A [01:15:00] feature. So if you’re anything like me, you might already be familiar with Notion, which is the sponsor of today’s episode, as I said. [01:15:06] Christina: I use this all the time for, for notes, for documents. I have internal wikis of various things that I collect and I really love the interface and I really love how easy it is, um, to, um, uh, create docs. But, but now I also like how easy it is to find things because of a new AI tool they’ve launched called Q& A. [01:15:25] Christina: So this is basically a personal assistant that responds really fast with exactly what you need right in your doc. So. Here’s a real world example from me. I have a Notion doc filled with links and information about various discounts that I get as a corporate employee. This is kind of a difficult document to like, suss through because it’s actually the combination of like five different documents that I’ve sourced from a bunch of different places. [01:15:51] Christina: So it’s not super well organized. Well, this is why this was perfect to use Q& A with because I can just ask Notion’s Q& [01:16:00] A I can say, okay, show me my discount code or my discount URL for Avis and it will give it to me and I don’t have to go searching for, okay, was it in the transportation section or was it in the car rental section or was it in some other discount section? [01:16:17] Christina: It’ll just give me the information when I ask the question and this is the sort of thing that it can do. For, for anybody. It doesn’t just have to be, you know, your weird, you know, link collections and, and, and documents. It can also, you know, um, use, use your own personal notes, your docs, your projects. All that is going to be together in one beautiful space, and then you can navigate that space using Q& A, um, to, you know, ask questions maybe about, like, next month’s Like, roadmap, uh, that you’re doing for next quarter or next month or, you know, a marketing campaign proposal that you’re looking for. [01:16:48] Christina: Um, or, you know, like I said, like what I’m doing all the time, digging up long lost links because that’s a problem that I personally have and that, uh, that Notion definitely can help, can help me out with. So [01:17:00] if you haven’t used Notion, um, I think that you should definitely give it a shot and Notion AI can now give you instant answers to your questions. [01:17:09] Christina: Using information from across your wiki, your project docs, your meeting notes, etc. So you can try Notion AI for free when you go to Notion. com slash Overtired. That’s all lowercase letters. Notion. com slash Overtired to try the powerful, easy to use Notion AI today. And when you’re going to use our link, you are supporting our show. [01:17:32] Christina: So once again, that is Notion. com slash Overtired. Try out the Q& A feature. Try out the Notion AI stuff. It’s really slick. I’m a big fan. Thanks a lot, Notion.

The hosts discuss topics such as internalized homophobia, the Grammy nominations for Best New Artist, their love for Wario games, and the recent news of Open AI imploding as a company.

Jay Miller joins Brett and Christina to talk about life in Developer Relations, a little bit of Taylor Swift, and some intriguing app discussions. Sponsor Show Links Jay’s HBCU list On the 1989 re-release Julia Zahra – Wrecking Ball Powerpoint Keyboard Maestro 11 ImageMagick Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript The DevRel Episode [00:00:00] Christina: Hello, you’re listening to Overtired. That’s right. There was not an error in your podcast feed. Uh, we are actually back with another episode. I’m Christina Warren, joined as always by Brett Terpstra. Jeff Severins Gunzel could not be with us this week, but that means that we are with, back with one of our very favorite guests, um, uh, your friend and mine, Mr. [00:00:25] Christina: Jay Miller. Jay, welcome back! [00:00:28] Jay: It, uh, getting on here the first time felt like a fluke, and now, now I just feel like I’ve, I’ve, I’m on to something. [00:00:37] Brett: Do we have a new co host? If, if, if, if Jeff ever, if Jeff ever bows out, we’ll give you a call. [00:00:44] Jay: as, as long as we don’t have to go through voting like 57 times to elect me as the, the new Overtired speaker, [00:00:54] Brett: Yeah. Christina, Christina is part of the Freedom Caucus. She’s gonna, she’s gonna block [00:01:00] your, uh, your, uh, nomination every time. [00:01:02] Christina: That’s exactly what it’s going to be. I’m going to be like, no, look, there, there are too many Atlanta people now. And so [00:01:08] Jay: I love it. [00:01:10] Brett: So, uh. We, just fair warning, we may be off again next week, but then we’re going to get back into a weekly, uh, uh, session again and try to stick with weekly episodes moving forward. We had a, we had a very extended summer break. [00:01:31] Christina: we did and we needed it. It was, it was, it was okay. Like, honestly, since the pandemic, uh, Brett, we’ve been insanely consistent. Like, like, like we’ve had a couple of like dips and dots that were big in there. But given the fact that we once went, I think, 14 months between episodes, I think that having like a few weeks away for our longtime loyal listeners, and thank you very much to those of you who’ve listened to us for a long time, um, Um, we were good actually at the top of that, [00:02:00] when I was at, um, all Things Open a few weeks ago, uh, I ran into Cullen, um, who told me that, um, Brett and, and I had gotten him through some really tough times and that was like the nicest thing that anybody has ever just like walked up and told me. [00:02:15] Christina: And so Cullen, I, I don’t know if you’re listening or not, uh, I don’t know if you still listen, but the fact that I had an overtired listener come up to me at all, things open and I had overtired hadn’t even been on in a while. And I hadn’t even announced that like I was gonna be there. Like that was the nicest and coolest and, uh, like most affirming thing. [00:02:31] Christina: So [00:02:32] Brett: Yeah, that always, that always feels good. Um, as someone who over shares constantly, um, I get, I get a fair number of emails. Um, at least weekly, sometimes multiple days in a row of people just saying, Hey, you, you made my life easier. You made it easier for me to talk about my mental health at my job. You made it easier for me to talk to my family about my mental health. [00:02:59] Brett: And [00:03:00] yeah, there’s a, there’s a place for us. We have, we have a purpose in the world. [00:03:07] Christina: There’s a place for nerdy geeks who really like to talk about automation and, um, nerd tools, uh, pop culture and, uh, and mental health. So yay. [00:03:16] Mental Health Corner [00:03:16] Brett: Speaking of mental health, should we kick off a mental health corner? [00:03:21] Christina: We should do it. We should do it. [00:03:23] Brett: Um, I, I can go, but I want to open the floor to Jay. Jay, do you want to kick off the mental health corner? [00:03:32] Jay: yeah, let’s, let’s talk about this. So, um, all of us have this fun role that we call DevRel. Um, no one really knows what it is. I love how every interview starts off with, how do you define [00:03:49] Christina: Yes. Thank you. So funny. [00:03:52] Jay: a large part of that for me was being out in the community and just hanging out with people. And, um, for those [00:04:00] that don’t know me, hi, I’m Jay, I’m black, and my voice sometimes does not show that. [00:04:05] Jay: Um, but, the other side of that is, I go to these conferences and I play this game of, like, how many fingers do I need to count the number of black people at conferences with me? Um, Usually it’s the single digit ones where I don’t go back, but, uh, I’m, I’m happy because I’ve been on the conference scene again lately. [00:04:28] Jay: Um, two weeks ago I was in Durham, North Carolina for DjangoCon US. Uh, that’s a Python web framework conference and like got to hang out with. I think we had like 30, not 30, sorry, wrong conference, about like 12, 15 like black folks there, which for a 200 person conference, that’s actually a higher number than you’d expect, um, but then, but the other side of that was [00:05:00] I started this community because I was tired of being the only person there called Black Python Devs. [00:05:06] Jay: We got to have our first in person meetup at that event. And it was so cool to be like, at an ice cream parlor with folks from, you know, different parts of Africa, different parts of the US, Latin America, and just be like, Yo, we came here for ice cream, but also to like just hug each other and be like we exist There are a lot of spider man meme photos Being taken and no we don’t all look alike, but that’s okay But then I got to go to like the reverse polar of that which is refactor tech, which is like a conference in Atlanta Designed for like, this is a space where no shits are given. [00:05:50] Jay: Like everyone is like, we’re here. We’re here to address these things that happen. Kim Creighton was one of the keynotes, like, um, and I got to give a talk that I’ve [00:06:00] been thinking about for almost a year now, which was called Python versus hip hop, how we can remix code, community, and culture, and. Just the compliments that I got were like so fantastic. [00:06:15] Jay: So I feel like I’m on cloud nine right now just because I’ve had two of the best conference experiences I’ve had in my career. Um, and they just happened to happen like back to back. And then next week I get to go to GitHub universe and hang out with super awesome, cool people. So like. This has been a good conference season for me mentally. [00:06:37] Christina: That’s so great. That’s, that’s really, really, I’m, I’m glad to hear that. And I hope, I, I, I don’t know, I’m afraid that GitHub Universe is not going to have the sort of, like, I, I, it’ll be more than one hand. But I, I don’t know, like, what our diversity stats will be for, for the attendees there. I hope on the community track we’ll have more people there. [00:06:56] Christina: But, um, yeah. [00:06:59] Jay: I’ll [00:07:00] get to hang out with some of my co workers that I’ve worked with for two years and never gotten to meet in person, so I’ll probably just be focusing a lot on that. [00:07:08] Christina: Yeah, yeah, but definitely, like, give us, legit, like, give us your feedback, not, and I, and I know you will, like, in terms of what you see and what not on that, because we talk a big game about that stuff, and, and I don’t know If we always do as good of a job as we can, um, although like on my immediate team, um, you know, we’ve done better than, um, a lot of other places that I’ve worked in terms of actually looking at like hiring diverse people. [00:07:31] Christina: And by that, I don’t just mean black people. Um, and, uh, but you know, we can always do better. So, um, I am glad to know that there were that many people, uh, at the, uh, the, the DjangoCon, like that’s, that’s really. Like, good to hear. [00:07:48] Jay: Yeah, I interviewed that organization team and they were just like, we’ve been working on this for ten years. Um, But I think the challenging part with that is, I then ask them a very [00:08:00] easy question. Hey, North Carolina A& T is 20 minutes away, did you reach out to them? And North Carolina A& T, for those that don’t know, historically black college and university. [00:08:08] Jay: One of the largest, like, collectives of black education, like, pursuers and leaders. And they’re just like, awww. Missed an opportunity there. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things that like Brett knows I am absolutely not shy about getting up somewhere and being like, where the hell are the black people at? [00:08:28] Jay: And they like sitting there in, in their confusion. And in the end, it’s just like, Oh, if you actually try, you get results. But also don’t be happy with your results. There’s always ways that you can improve. [00:08:44] Christina: Right. Right. No, I mean, and that’s the thing, right? And, and I think actually you bring up a good point on the education front. Cause I run into this, um, with, or I ran into this at Microsoft. I don’t know if this is the case at GitHub and I, I’m not going to pretend it’s, I don’t know if it’s still the same case at Microsoft now, [00:09:00] but when I would talk to our, like our, uh, our student team and like kind of like people who are trying to do recruit, recruitment and trying to, you know, bring in like more people from more diverse backgrounds. [00:09:09] Christina: I would often be like, okay, so why are all the colleges that we’re focusing on, like you say you want to do this, but you’re not going to a lot of historically black colleges and universities, you’re not going to a lot of, like, uh, you know, public universities that might have, like, good schools but, like, diverse backgrounds, like, you’re still focused on your very, like, Elite number of schools and, and then the University of Washington, because it’s local. [00:09:33] Christina: Um, like, do you, do you not understand why that’s a problem for your pipeline? Because you’re only looking at places that if you look at, you know, A, the number of students they have, which is usually small, and B, the percentages of, you know, people who are like, not white or Asian, who are like, Students there do not understand, and male for the most part in the engineering schools, do not understand why, like, this is why this is [00:10:00] the only people that you say you can hire. [00:10:03] Christina: Like, because you’re literally only looking at, you’re still focusing on, on these specific institutions, even though every single study shows that that doesn’t really determine the outcome of success for people, uh, by any means. [00:10:18] Jay: Can I shamelessly promote something that I made like two years ago? So I created this list pulled from the department of education’s like data set. And it’s just called HBCU list. It’s a GitHub repo. And all it is is sorted out by state, every single historically black college and university, or primarily black institution, which just means that they have a, like more than. [00:10:40] Jay: Large percentage of black students. Like I’m, I’m sharing this with, uh, the Python software foundation for this year. We’re going to be in Pittsburgh for PyCon US and like the goal is literally. Pittsburgh, surrounding states, finding every single school on this list and at least just inviting them and saying here are some free [00:11:00] tickets. [00:11:00] Jay: Like, it’s driving distance, you can come. Like, if you need to get a hotel, we have grants available. Like, it’s… It always amazes me how like, these little actions, you get like two or three people to show up and then the next year like 20 show up. So just, just doing something and yeah, feel free to use this list. [00:11:20] Jay: It’s, I mean, I stole it from the Department of Education. And I only say stole because this, the link that I got this from is no longer available. So I wonder if they want this out there. [00:11:31] Christina: Well, I mean, [00:11:33] Brett: Minnesota has zero historically black institutions. [00:11:38] Jay: That makes sense though. I mean, most of them are in the southeast. They kind of move north. I feel like the further west you go, the harder it is to find them, but if they don’t have any PBI’s, then that, I mean, yeah, that, that also kind of makes sense, but [00:11:56] Brett: Yeah, [00:11:57] Jay: think Minneapolis would have [00:11:58] Brett: I would think [00:12:00] so, [00:12:00] Jay: Yeah. [00:12:01] Brett: but we do like compared to Atlanta, like we have no black people compared to Atlanta. Um, it’s, you know, there is a, there is a population. There’s a, there’s a whole George Floyd incident. I don’t know if you heard about that. [00:12:19] Jay: Oh yeah. I heard about that. [00:12:21] Christina: yeah, I [00:12:21] Brett: a historically racist police department in Minneapolis. [00:12:26] Brett: I don’t know if you’re familiar with this at all, but [00:12:29] Jay: Yeah. Uh, no, it’s, it’s not ringing a bell. Um, I, [00:12:34] Brett: I’ll send you some links. It’ll be fine. [00:12:37] Christina: Washington also, not surprisingly, does not have any historically Black colleges or universities. We’re not as racist as Oregon, but, I mean, that’s a small bar, but we are very close to Oregon. So, you know. [00:12:52] Jay: I feel like that should be on the state flag somewhere. [00:12:55] Christina: Yeah, not as racist as Oregon. Like, we weren’t literally created [00:13:00] as a state to, like, have no black people, so, you know, slightly better there, but, yeah. [00:13:07] Brett: Alright. Is that what you got, Jay? [00:13:09] Jay: That’s what I got. [00:13:10] Brett: Alright. Christina, do you want to go or should I? [00:13:13] Christina: Uh, you go ahead and go. I’ll finish up. [00:13:16] Brett: So, I’m currently looking for a new therapist. Um, I don’t dislike my current therapist, but what I really want to do is internal family systems therapy, and she has decided she is not qualified. to do that. She, like, she started researching, she started reading books, and ultimately realized it would take 80 hours of online training to get certified as an IFS therapist, and that just wasn’t feasible for her. [00:13:47] Brett: So we’ve been looking around at options. In the meantime, I can, I’m continuing doing CBD with her, um, but, uh, I’ve been contacting I have [00:14:00] contacted 12 therapists, uh, in the state, uh, for telehealth sessions. And I have one that has a two month waiting list, which is fine. That’s, that’s not a big deal. Um, but everyone else is like, we’re not taking new clients and we. [00:14:21] Brett: Don’t foresee ever taking new clients or like, we can’t tell you when we’ll actually be able to take new clients again. Um, so I have, I have one, I have one hope for IFS. Uh, in the meantime, I’m working with my current therapist. We’re kind of using IFS language, which is like for anyone unfamiliar, like, IFS is this idea that you have all of these parts within you that are often frozen at various points in time and, and they can take, uh, like, um, uh, [00:15:00] guard roles. [00:15:01] Brett: in your forefront personality and, and can bring forward beliefs maybe that you don’t have, uh, like as your actual self and can make noise and, and react to things in a way that isn’t true to who you actually are. Um, and you deal with them by showing compassion, talking to these individual parts and Integrating them into your true self, uh, so that with the ultimate goal of acting from true self, which is like a compassionate, uh, uh, reasonable human being, which is what I want to be, um, And I, it’s, there’s parts of it that sound like a lot of woo to me. [00:15:51] Brett: Um, but also when I read about like what the goals of it are, it’s something I do really want. So I [00:16:00] am exploring finding an IFS therapist to go through this with me. Um, that said, I have found. My loudest voice is this little Christian boy that seems to be frozen around the age of 10. And he has a checklist of all of the things I do that are going to condemn me to hell. [00:16:25] Brett: And he is constantly fighting to make me feel terrible about things that I consider part of my identity. Uh, so working with my current therapist, I, I’ve been writing a letter to the little Christian boy. Um, I haven’t given him a name. I think it might be helpful to name him. Um, but, uh, writing a letter expressing. [00:16:54] Brett: Uh, Who I actually am and where, well, so the first, the first [00:17:00] draft of this letter I wrote about who I actually am and all the ways he was wrong. And, and I went into like all this detail about like, you believe this and here’s why this is wrong. And that was… That was the incorrect approach. What I actually need to do is say, you’ve done a good job, uh, with what, you know, and, and you’ve, you’ve really looked out for me doing the best you can in, in this state you were frozen in and just show some compassion to this part of me. [00:17:32] Brett: Uh, but like everything from my identity as like pansexual or my history with drug addiction and all of these things that. He considers, like, you know, reasons I should go to hell. Um, and I don’t need to spend time convincing him that I don’t believe in hell anymore. Um, I need to say, hey, good show, buddy. [00:17:57] Brett: You tried. Um, [00:18:00] and just kind of accept, uh, Or get him to accept that he did, he did his work and he’s done and he can fuck off now. Um, so that’s, that’s my, that’s my like current, uh, therapy status. I also have been in a lot of discussions with my partner about, um, our kind of, the way we behave in social situations. [00:18:27] Brett: Um, it started with a conversation about how I love to pick up other people’s check at dinner and she sees this as like a way of me showing off, a way of me like lording over them that I make more than they do and that’s not In any way, what it is for me, like for me, it’s like, Hey, how can I be generous and show these people that I love them and thank them for hanging out with us? [00:18:55] Brett: And like, this is like, we want to do it again. So I’m going to make it as easy as [00:19:00] possible. And I just, like, I’ll intercept the check when I see the, the, the wait staff coming up, I’ll just like, hold my card out and be like, just one check, take it all. Um, and then. And then the people at the table will be like, Hey, so where’s the check? [00:19:18] Brett: I’ll be like, don’t worry about it. I got this. And like, L sees that as like, um, haughty, I guess. But like, so, so I’m reworking like how I do this. And I want to make it more, um, I want to give them some agency in the matter. I want to, I want to stop and say, Hey, do you mind if I pick this up? And I don’t want to say you can get the next one, which was suggested to me when I brought this up on, on social media, they’re like, just say, I’ll get this, you can get the next one. [00:19:53] Brett: But I don’t want people to not hang out with us because they feel like it’s their responsibility to not pick up [00:20:00] just their check, but also mine. Like, I don’t want to put that out there. So I just want to, I’m going to, I’m going to start asking. Can I get this? Um, we’ll see how that goes. Uh, the other topic that has come up is When I don’t know how to fit into a conversation, I tell a dad joke. [00:20:21] Brett: Um, I will, I will interrupt a train of thought to tell a stupid fucking joke. And that’s my way of like, breaking in. Um, 4L, that entirely disrupts. Like the, the, the deeper conversation she was fostering for me in a party setting, like everything’s fair game. Like, let’s, let’s switch topics. Let’s keep this conversation like surface level and just skimming around. [00:20:52] Brett: But she likes to dig deeper. She likes a deep dive in her conversations. And, and I always screw that [00:21:00] up. Um, so what we figured out is We don’t, we need to not have conversations with the same people at a party. We, we attract different types of people. The people that will enjoy a conversation with me are different people than the ones that will enjoy a conversation with her. [00:21:20] Brett: And she spends time trying to rescue people I’m talking to from me. And I spend time trying to rescue people she’s talking to from her, whereas. What really should happen is we should get to the party, we should separate. We should talk to the people that each of us attracts or are attracted to and then, you know, check in with each other on occasion. [00:21:45] Brett: Do you need another drink? How’s it going? Um, you good? You ready to go? Etc. Um, but like, have separate conversations, which makes perfect sense to me. It doesn’t offend me at all, and I think [00:22:00] she’s down with the idea. Like, I’m not a person who’s like, I can’t believe you spent all night talking to someone and didn’t include me. [00:22:06] Brett: Like, I don’t care. I’m [00:22:08] Christina: Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that’s probably the right thing, and then maybe what you could find is that, okay, if you, you know, wind up, uh, being in a place where, um, you both, like, you meet someone who you think that L might like, or, or you kind of gravitate towards the same person, then you can have, like, kind of a, a shared conversation, right? [00:22:27] Christina: Like, where, but, [00:22:28] Brett: or at least an introduction and then bow out. [00:22:31] Christina: totally, [00:22:32] Brett: not the person for me, but you might be the person for Elle. [00:22:35] Picking up the check [00:22:35] Christina: Or, you know, if you think you might both like them, like, maybe you would have that comfort where you won’t do the interrupting while she’s talking thing to insert a, you know, unnecessary dad joke, um, uh, you know, which, uh, I, I totally get your impulse there. That’s also something maybe recognize that, like, if people are talking, like, you don’t always have to find your in that way, but, um, [00:23:00] I, I, I have a similar thing with you on picking up the check. [00:23:02] Christina: I. And I’ve never even thought about it as people thinking like, Oh, you know, she thinks she’s better than anybody else. Cause it’s… Never been about that for me. It’s like, I appreciate being with you and I would like to show that. I think the thing is, I think people like, I think like, uh, you said, asking people if that’s okay, I think that’s a good thing. [00:23:18] Christina: Um, the only thing there is you just have to be okay with, with people saying no. Um, [00:23:23] Brett: Well, and I am. Like, it’s not like a moral obligation I have to pay the check. I just think it’s a nice, generous thing to do. And if I can afford it, why wouldn’t I do it? If they’re like, Oh no, we got this, or we got ours, let’s split the check. Fine. Totally fine. I’m not offended in any way. [00:23:43] Christina: Yeah. [00:23:44] Jay: Kind of two interesting things on that, like the, the splitting the check thing, uh, Brent, you and I have talked about this before, like I clearly make more money than everyone in my family. So, yeah. And, and in some ways they remind me of that, not in a [00:24:00] aggressive way, but like, uh, Hey, we should go somewhere. [00:24:04] Jay: Uh, it’s not really in our budget to go somewhere right now. Um, okay, cool. Either I can choose to say, well, I want to go, so I will cover it. Or that’s cool. We’ll think of something that isn’t, you know, or that is more in your budget. We’ll do a, a game night at home. Like we’ve made investments, we got a pizza oven just to like. [00:24:25] Jay: Have my sister come over from college and be like, yo, let’s make pizzas and hang out. Like, you don’t have to spend money now. But I, I definitely feel that whenever I am with people of equal or greater, like, financial position that it gets, it gets weird. Cause then it’s like, uh, and usually the to cover it. [00:24:51] Brett: Yeah. [00:24:52] Jay: Like, I’m not going to say, Hey, Brett, Christina, let’s go to like, you know, Ruth’s Chris on me, or let’s go to Ruth’s quiz [00:25:00] period. Like if I’m balling on like McDonald’s budget, [00:25:03] Brett: Well, I think it’s, I think it’s a thing that you can, you can specify in the invitation. If you say, let us take you out to this restaurant. Instead of like, let’s go to this restaurant, let us take you out, and like, just set up that expectation from the beginning, and then if you say, let’s go, let’s meet at this place, then understand that the, the understanding is that you’ll be splitting the check. [00:25:33] Christina: Yes. Yeah, that’s how I feel. Like, I, I, I mean, yeah, that’s what I do. I mean, like, if I, if I want to invite someone someplace, and, and I’m in a similar situation with, with you, um, Jay, where I would say at this point about half my friends make the same as, or in some cases more than me, but a lot of my friends, like, especially my journalist friends, like, I now make way more than them. [00:25:54] Christina: So when we go out, thank you, Jay. Especially if it’s someplace that is pricier or whatever, like I usually [00:26:00] will buy like the first round of drinks or something else just because I understand sometimes that we’re in a, you know, situation where I’m like, okay, I know that I’m in a much better situation than you are just from a Paychecks point of view, um, although some of them might do better with savings and whatnot than me, um, but, you know, uh, and maybe if I’m there, you know, if I’m in New York or whatever, like I’m there on, on for work and, you know, um, I’m just like, okay, I’m, I’m. [00:26:28] Christina: In a place where I can totally just get the check or, or, or get our drinks or whatever. Um, but I, I also feel like it’s sometimes one of those situations where, like you were saying, Brett, you just have to know the expectations. Where if, if the whole reason that somebody doesn’t want to go out is because they can’t afford it, if I know that, then I’ll be like, Oh no, I got this. [00:26:45] Christina: You know, we, we can go out and do this. But if it’s one of those things where it’s like, you say to somebody, Let’s meet here, or have you wanted to go to this place, then I, I guess maybe wrongly, I, I kind of trust them to tell me if they can’t [00:27:00] afford it, or if it’s not something that’s within their budget right then, um, and then we can either find another place, or, you know, if it’s a place I really want to try, I can be like, hey, my treat, but, you know, generally, um, I don’t know, it’s weird, I think I have a good budget. [00:27:14] Christina: Like read at this point on what types of friends I can invite to really expensive places and what types I can’t and it is not always based on income. There are some friends who will just budget and use their money for those things. Then I have some friends who are really freaking rich but are cheap as hell and I would like never invite to like, uh, you [00:27:33] Brett: common, [00:27:33] Christina: you know what I mean? [00:27:34] Christina: Where I’m like, I would never invite them to an expensive restaurant because I know that they would like. Be weird about it. [00:27:41] Brett: I have been invited to restaurants that I know that I can’t afford. Like I can’t afford my check, let alone picking up someone else’s. Um, and in those situations, I’ve, I’ve accepted the invite because I have assumed this person makes enough money. They’re going to buy both of [00:28:00] our meals. Uh, even though it wasn’t explicitly stated, I know that if someone’s going to bring me a 200 steak, I’m not going to be the one paying for it. [00:28:10] Brett: Cause I would never do that to myself. And it’s always worked out. Like, uh, [00:28:15] Christina: Oh, that’s cool. [00:28:16] Brett: people that have taken me out, like in San Francisco, they’ve always, like, it’s never been a question. I got this. [00:28:23] Christina: that’s interesting. I think like there’s like this weird like wasp part of me that would like never ever assume that someone else was paying the check and would feel like compelled to pay my part even if I was completely broke and didn’t have it because otherwise like unless it was like very clear like with the invite, oh we want to take you out. [00:28:41] Christina: Or if you’re going out with, you know, a certain boss or something like my, my old boss, Prashant, Prashant pays for everything always. And that’s just how it is. And you go to really expensive [00:28:49] Brett: well, bosses, bosses should pay. Parents, parents should pay when they take their kids out. [00:28:56] Christina: It depends. [00:28:58] Brett: So, okay, the way I was [00:29:00] raised, I have never, ever paid for my meal when eating with my parents, or, you know, whatever partner I have at the time, like, they have never paid. And that is, like, that’s the way I learned. [00:29:14] Brett: If you take someone out, you pay for the meal, like, [00:29:16] Christina: Yeah, no, and I, I, I only do if I want to, right? Like my parents, it’s one of those things where I’m like, no, I’ll, I’ll take care of this. I mean, the assumption, yeah, I’ll be honest. The assumption always is for me that my parents are going to pay, but I, I, there have been times when I’ve been like, no, actually I would like to, you know, pick up the [00:29:33] Brett: Yeah. Well, and that’s your, that’s your option. That’s always an option. Um, but it’s never an assumption. And I think that’s for my parents. I think that’s a familial thing. I imagine when they go out with their peers, they’re not just assuming they’re picking up the check. Like they pick up the check for family, but I translated it in my brain to like whoever makes the invitation [00:30:00] And I don’t think that’s true, uh, for anybody. [00:30:05] Brett: I don’t think that’s even true for my parents who taught me this. Like, we invited you out for dinner, so we’re buying you dinner. Um, I, I’m working, I’m working through some stuff. [00:30:16] Jay: I, I can’t imagine, like, I think the last three times I’ve gone to dinner with my parents, I’ve picked up the check. But again, I know a lot of that is like, They are very content with eating the exact same meal every single day. Like, they’re like, we’ve budgeted for this. It’s pork chops and rice today. [00:30:35] Jay: It’ll probably be pork chops and rice tomorrow. Like, so for me, it’s like, if I don’t want to eat the same thing, I’ve got to be like, hey, let’s go here, my treat. Like, I’m more than happy to [00:30:46] Brett: to, to be fair, my parents idea of eating out is like Perkins or the Green [00:30:51] Jay: Yeah. [00:30:52] Brett: and like the check is never more than 80 for like a party of four, so [00:30:58] Jay: Yeah.[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Brett: It’s a different story than going out to an actually good restaurant [00:31:04] Christina: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, but my parents are Bunch is a little bit more than that, but it is a similar thing. Like, it’ll be like, you know, like a chain thing unless it’s like a birthday or, you know, like a special occasion. And then even if it’s like their birthday. They always pay, which, you know, weird, but like, [00:31:22] Brett: It’s my birthday I get to pay for everyone’s dinner. [00:31:25] Christina: Okay, but you know what? [00:31:26] Christina: This year I took my mom to Las Vegas for a week to see Adele, and I paid out the ass for Taylor Swift era’s tour ticket. So honestly, at this point, [00:31:35] Brett: you can pick up your own meal if you want to. [00:31:39] Christina: for this year, absolutely. For this year, I’m like, I’m like, you know what? I’m good. [00:31:43] Jay: that’s a good rule of thumb too. Like, if, if you’ve been paid for. Substantially, like, make the effort to cover it once or twice, like. [00:31:55] Brett: yeah. [00:31:56] Jay: Even if it’s like, yo, let’s go to Burger King, my treat, like [00:32:00] just, just the act of being like, Hey, you, you really hooked me up [00:32:04] Brett: You, you spent ten grand on me, I can spend fifty bucks on you, [00:32:08] Christina: Totally. But I think that actually goes back to like the first thing you were talking about, Brett, which is just I think just showing like the whole reason I think a lot of us do these things is because we want to show that we care and we want to show gratitude. Like I’m sure for some people it is a flex. [00:32:19] Christina: But I don’t get that’s not the sense with you. Like that’s not the sense [00:32:22] Brett: And that’s not the sense I’ve ever gotten when someone picks up my check. It has [00:32:27] Jay: don’t hang out with [00:32:27] Brett: it has never felt like a flex to me. [00:32:30] Christina: No, I mean, I’ve only had that in a couple of instances, and it’s been when, like, it’s been like a really rich guy. I remember one time I went to, uh, one of Wiley Dufresne’s, uh, restaurants, uh, WD 50, which I don’t even think exists anymore, but, um, in, in New York City, and, um, it was like a 400 prefix thing per person before Uh, Wine. [00:32:49] Christina: And we had the wine tasting too. And, um, and Grant’s boss at the time, like, picked up the whole thing. And that was an understood thing, because again, like, if you’re going someplace where you’re talking about [00:33:00] probably, it was probably 6. 50 per person before, um, tip, you know, that’s a different sort of thing. [00:33:06] Christina: Like, I, although I have, I have been invited to go to French Laundry with people before, and they said, normally, you know, we would pay, but, you know, this is a, a special, more expensive menu, so. If you would like to come, you know, like with the, and I’m like, well, yeah, it’s French Laundry. I would not assume that you would pay for me in this context, but it, but in the, the WD 50 situation, it was a flex for sure. [00:33:28] Christina: And I absolutely accepted it. I was like, you can flex all you want. Thank you very much for the very expensive, you know, meal. Um, and, and in presentation, like that is, that is fine. Like you can absolutely. Be, uh, you know, showing off that you are a rich asshole. Like that is completely fine with me. [00:33:45] Brett: What does WD 50 mean? Is that 10 better than WD 40? [00:33:50] Christina: So the guy’s name, the chef’s name is Wiley Dufresne. And so I think that it was just kind of like a play on like, [00:33:56] Brett: Dufresne, sure. [00:33:57] Christina: so it is a, uh, molecular [00:34:00] gastronomy is the sort of [00:34:00] Brett: yeah, okay, yep. [00:34:03] Christina: So, so the whole, and then I think, naming after a chemical thing, actually it was a pretty great restaurant name. It was a good restaurant too. [00:34:08] Christina: I don’t, like I said, I don’t know if it still exists, but, um, it was a, it was a really good restaurant. But that was one of the more expensive meals, um, I’ve, uh, I’ve ever been to. No, it does not exist anymore. It closed, um, in, uh, uh, 2014. So shit. Yeah. Well, it, it, no, it was open for 11 years. [00:34:26] Brett: Alright, alright, that’s a good run. That’s a good run. [00:34:30] Jay: Brett, I have a question about the second thing you were, you were talking about with just kind of different. Not friend groups, but I would say maybe like friend types. Like, do you hang out with a lot of neurodivergent [00:34:41] Brett: Oh, 100%. Like, I don’t hang out with neurotypicals at all. [00:34:46] Jay: I, I wonder how much of a problem this actually is for the other, like the person in the conversation, because I’ve hung out with both you and Elle at the same time, and I am completely able to track [00:35:00] both the, both of the conversations, including the inserted dad jokes and just keep going without a step being missed. [00:35:07] Brett: So, The, yeah, um, the difference is when we hang out with you, it’s been in a situation where we were, where we will, we were all kind of already comfortable with each other. Um, and we had certain understandings in place about each other’s personalities. Um, the situations I’m talking about are party situations where you’re meeting people you’ve never talked to before. [00:35:34] Brett: You’re creating those first impressions, um, which. For me, first impression is like, I’m going to lay everything on the table. And if you can’t deal with it, we’re going to move on. And for Elle, it’s like, let’s feel this out. Let’s let’s discover each other’s like special interests. Let’s dive deep on things we share. [00:35:55] Brett: And for me, it’s just like, I’m going to spill my guts. And if you don’t [00:36:00] like it, you can leave and I’ll move on to the next person. Uh, it’s a different situation than one where there’s already a mutual respect and kind of a, like an acceptance. [00:36:14] Jay: Yeah, [00:36:14] Christina: Well, it also seems like this is a thing that might not bother the people that you are with, but this is just a thing that, that really bothers Elle. And so that, that, which, which is fair. Right. [00:36:24] Jay: I get that. Yeah. Like Brit. [00:36:26] Christina: that’s the case where it’s just like, it’s like people you’re with might not even be bothered by it. [00:36:29] Christina: Maybe they, they will be kind of like, you know, [00:36:32] Brett: Honestly, okay, to be fair, if I thought people I was talking to were bothered by a random dad joke, I wouldn’t tell it. Like, I have some, I have some inhibitions where if I don’t feel like something is appropriate, if I feel like people will react badly to it, I’m not gonna do it. Like, these are situations where I think it’s appropriate. [00:36:57] Brett: Um, but they, it offends. L. [00:37:00] It like breaks L’s concentration more than anything. [00:37:03] Christina: I was going to say, that’s, that’s honestly, that’s the real thing, right? Like it’s, it’s not so much about like what the, what, what it’s doing for the other people, cause yeah, you, you can have a read on whether it’s an appropriate time to insert something like that or not. But it’s the fact that, yeah, with her, it’s taking her out of it. [00:37:17] Christina: It’s making her, you know, like it’s changing, you know, whatever her, you know, concentration level or, or her feel on the conversation was, and it’s, it’s disrupting that, which totally fair. That’s, I think that you’ve come up with a good solution, which is just at a party when you’re meeting people, don’t meet them at the same time. [00:37:33] Brett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:37:36] Jay: This is so fascinating. Like Brittany and I are so different, like my wife Brittany, um, I talk all the time. I don’t shut up. She never talks. So we have like the exact opposite problem where people who are meeting us for the first time either think that I’m super talkative or that I’m like. speaking for her, or the, or the, or the worst is [00:38:00] like, oh, well, she doesn’t like us because she didn’t say anything. [00:38:02] Jay: It’s like, no, she just doesn’t talk to like anyone. Um, so if we want the conversation to continue, I, I pick up on that and like, I just speak. Um, but it’s, I would be I’d be interested to understand more, like, the feeling of like, hey, we both have things that we want to talk about, but we’re, we’re bumping into each other in the process. [00:38:30] Brett: yeah. It’s like, I honestly, in a party situation, I don’t want to talk about anything. Like I keep everything very surface level. When I’m first meeting someone, I’m testing the waters. [00:38:44] Christina: It’s a vibe check. [00:38:46] Brett: it’s a what? [00:38:47] Christina: It’s a vibe check. [00:38:48] Brett: Oh, yeah. So vibe check. Yeah, it is totally. And, and Elle is like, let me find the one common interest we have and like, dig into that. [00:38:58] Brett: And I’m [00:39:00] like, let’s find out how you react to [00:39:03] Christina: Right, [00:39:04] Brett: offensive jokes or stupid jokes. [00:39:07] Christina: right. Do I want to actually talk to you enough to even find out if I want to [00:39:11] Brett: Right. [00:39:12] Christina: Yeah, that’s, that’s how I am at some place. Like, hey, well, I mean, I’m like you, you, Jay, like I’m a talkative person and I’ll talk to anybody about anything, like, you know. It’s actually weird for me when I’m in a situation where I’m with someone who I cannot get To talk back at all. [00:39:27] Christina: And I’m not talking about quiet people, because that I can deal with. But I mean people who like, will just like, not give you anything at all. And you’re just like, okay, so we’re just gonna sit here in silence. Like that’s, and I can do that. But that’s, that’s weird and rare for me. I can usually get almost anybody to talk [00:39:44] Brett: Right. Yeah. When I meet a quiet person, that’s like a challenge. I’m like, I’m like, I get you. Like, I, I, I understand your social anxiety. I understand what you’re going through right now. I’m gonna. I’m gonna break your shell, and we’re gonna [00:40:00] find, we’re gonna find a common thing that’s gonna bring you out of your shell. [00:40:03] Brett: That’s like a challenge to me, and I won’t, I’m not, I don’t like, I’m not overbearing. I’m not gonna like, you must talk to me, or, or you have failed. Like, it’s like, I’m just gonna test the waters, I’m gonna keep trying things to kind of crack your shell, and see if we can like, bring you out, And like, that’s, that’s fun for me. [00:40:24] Brett: Like, I enjoy that. [00:40:25] Christina: No, I do too. I do too. Like, I think that that was the only, sorority rush was such always like a complete bullshit and like nightmarish week and whole situation and the whole thing is dumb. But the one part of that that I did enjoy was like, you have to have. 10, 000 conversations with random girls, you know, for like five days straight as you’re trying to kind of get to know them more and figure out like, who will you, you know, you know, present a bid to and who will you, you know, not and all this bullshit. [00:40:54] Christina: And so you have to, you’re faced sometimes with really awkward… Like conversations [00:41:00] and trying to get people to talk and get out of their shell. And this, this girl who wound up being my little sister in my sorority and like somebody who I loved deeply, I met her and I could not get her to talk to me. And it was the most awkward. [00:41:12] Christina: And like, I felt so failed and I was like, what the hell? But she kept putting us at the top of her bid list, like every single day. And we came back and wound up like, not only did she accept, like. I was the one that she liked the most. Like, she wanted me as her big sister. And then we, we wound up getting, I invited her over to my house, um, once she became a Pledge. [00:41:31] Christina: And I got all the Pledges drunk, um, and then we went out to a club. And, um, cause that’s what I, that’s how I, like, make friends. Is, I’m just like, we’re gonna get fucked up. And we’re gonna, like, Go. Like, you know, and then like, like, you’re making the freshmen do really stupid shit, you know, which like, like, they’re always like, Oh, no, you can’t, you know, tell the pledges to drink. [00:41:50] Christina: I’m like, yeah, you can. Um, I can absolutely tell you, I will absolutely peer pressure you into getting fucked up 100%. Um, and [00:42:00] I have zero regrets about that. But like, she, we you. She wound up really liking me, and like, once, like, I, her ambitions, like, like, her, um, guard was down a little bit, like, she was a completely different person, and I just realized, okay, she just really has to take things in, and, you know, wouldn’t put anything out there, but once she felt comfortable around me, then, like, she’d never shut up, and it was great, but it’s just, I always, I always try to, like, remember that to myself, because I thought that it was the most awkward, like, You know, um, like a warmed conversation, that’s what we would call them, warmed conversations. [00:42:33] Christina: I thought it was like the most awkward thing I’d ever had in my entire life. I was like, that girl hated me, this was awful, like I have never in my life had anybody just not respond. And, you know, I was pulling out all my tricks, nothing. And… Ended up being, okay, that was just a misread because, and I’m sure that she’s neurodivergent, um, but like, that was just, at the time I didn’t know that. [00:42:55] Christina: I was like, okay, that’s just, you know, once I got to know her, I was like, okay, no, she just really takes [00:43:00] people in first and then, you know, [00:43:03] Brett: Here’s my question that’s gonna make this okay for me. [00:43:06] Christina: yeah. [00:43:07] Brett: Did you protect a fucked up pledge? If you got them fucked up, did [00:43:11] Christina: Oh, yeah. [00:43:12] Brett: for them? [00:43:13] Jay: Yeah. [00:43:13] Christina: thousand percent. Without a doubt. Always. Yeah. [00:43:17] Brett: You didn’t just dump them at the club and [00:43:20] Christina: Are you kidding me? No way. No no no no no no no no no. Absolutely not. [00:43:23] Brett: That was my assumption. I just needed it stated clearly. [00:43:28] Christina: No. Absolutely not. No, especially if like, if they’re younger, they’re the pledge, like, even if they’re older, like, if they’re the pledge, no, you protect them and you make sure that they’re not gonna go home with somebody and that like, nobody’s Yeah, no no no no. Absolutely not. Like, no matter how fucked up I would get, like, you make sure that you’re not as fu you’re not too fucked up to like, you know, [00:43:46] Brett: All [00:43:46] Christina: protect Yeah. [00:43:47] Christina: One thousand [00:43:48] Brett: I just had to check. [00:43:50] Christina: No, no, no. I mean, good, good, good, good, good check. Good check, but no. Under no circumstances would I ever. Now, if I was with a, a, a sister, and, and we [00:44:00] were getting fucked up, um, no, I, I’m not gonna, like, necessarily look out for her the same way, because now, like, we’re, we’re on the same playing field, and if we both decided to get fucked up together, like, it’s not really my fault if you decided to fuck a guy in the bathroom. [00:44:13] Christina: Like, that’s kind of on you. But, like, if, if it’s a pledge to you, I, like, Was basically, you know, like peer pressuring into, you know, doing multiple shots before we got in the, in the taxi or whoever was, you know, um, driving us his car, you know, to go to the club. Yes, of course, I’m going to make sure that she’s completely okay. [00:44:32] Christina: Yeah, [00:44:33] Brett: So Christina, how’s your mental health? We’re like 43 [00:44:37] Christina: I know. [00:44:37] Brett: and we’re still on mental health [00:44:39] Still on mental health [00:44:39] Christina: I know. I know. Um, okay, so it’s, it’s, it’s good and it’s bad. Um, so the good news is, is that, uh, I’m not really feeling depressed anymore, which is great. The bad news is, is that the medicine, which I was really hopeful about. Not going to work at all. So today is actually my second day being off of it completely. [00:44:59] Christina: Um, so [00:45:00] far the withdrawal has not been super bad, which is good. Um, I had a little bit yesterday, but this is one that my doctor says does not have a big withdrawal thing. He was like, yeah, you can just go off of it. Like I’d been taking it twice a day. I dropped down to once a day, um, because I, I had to get off of it and, and, um, I didn’t have a call with him for like another, you know, like week. [00:45:19] Christina: And so, um, uh, and he was like. Um, I was like, so I was like, I’ve been on it, you know, taking it to once a day. I was like, you know, should I cut it in half? What I do? He’s like, no, you can just go off of it. So the long and the short of it is, although the depression was gone, um, and it was no longer giving me that initial side effect I had where I felt high without the euphoria. [00:45:41] Christina: Then it was going into this thing where I could just like. Read an article or be focused on something and be in it for like five or six hours and have no Level of urgency to actually get anything done that I needed to get done Like at all so it wouldn’t matter like how important I had a deadline or like you have to you [00:46:00] know Do something else or you need to book your travel or you need to brush your teeth or whatever Like I just would have absolutely no feeling of urgency to do anything at all and just continue focusing on whatever I was doing So it wasn’t like I was completely zoned out because I would actually be you know sometimes doing things and sometimes Occasionally productive things, but that sense of like, you know, that thing in the back of your mind that’s like, No, you need to do this so that you can, you know, function as a human. [00:46:24] Christina: Right, it wasn’t even hyper focused though. It was just more like, I didn’t care. Like, I would know that there were consequences to my actions. And that this was bad and that these were going to be bad things and that would maybe bring a little bit of anxiety in me, but not enough to actually get me to actually do those things. [00:46:42] Christina: So it was fucked up, right? And then I, and I explained this to my doctor and, and he was like, well, that’s not great. I’m like, no, that’s going to get me fired. Like that’s going to, this is the sort of thing that will get me no longer employed. So I cannot be on this. And, um, I think that he was [00:47:00] really kind of scrambling to try to find some way to salvage it. [00:47:03] Christina: Well, maybe we add another drug into it and this and that. And I was like, you know what? I think we need to just call this and say that this was a good experiment, but this didn’t work because I don’t have time. It’s so busy right now with universe and stuff. Like I genuinely don’t have time. To fuck around with this right now. [00:47:16] Brett: time. [00:47:17] Christina: And, and so, um, I’m only going to be on Dexedrine now, going forward. We’re going to figure out what my baseline is, and then we’re going to maybe look at some other things, but I would need to figure out kind of like what my baseline place is. And this will be the first time that I’ve only been on Dexedrine in like six or seven years. [00:47:34] Christina: And so, it’ll be a good time. I, I A number of years ago I was stupid and, and ghosted my shrink, um, who was still my current shrink and like went off of all my meds cold turkey, which was a dumb ass thing to do. Um, and that lasted like a year and a half or so. Um, but that has been, um, Like, like I said, it’s been close to seven years now that like I’ve been back with him. [00:47:56] Christina: So this will be the first time, um, in a really long [00:48:00] time that the only thing I’ll be on is dexedrine. And so it’ll be a good time, I think, to evaluate where things are and then we can go from there. And then I’m, I’m at, I’ve, as we kind of talked about, um, a few podcasts ago, I’m at the point where if I feel like if I’m trying other medicines, if I’m going through the same. [00:48:19] Christina: Issues that I went through this time, then if I have to take, like, medical leave or something, I’m gonna do that, because I, I can’t… I can’t risk like my, my career, you know, um, and that’s, that’s been a hard thing in some ways to kind of come to terms with, but that’s also, I think, been like the most mature thing that I can, you know, an adult thing I can do about it is to say like, okay, don’t be afraid if there’s going to be a job for you when you get back, don’t like have those things going through your head. [00:48:49] Christina: Do the right thing. Prioritize your mental health. Prioritize getting, you know, the right thing going on. Um, but I’m hopeful that, you know, we’ll figure out where things are. I’m also hopeful that maybe, [00:49:00] even if this medicine ultimately didn’t work, if it got me out of the massive depression I was in, and, and I, I don’t anticipate that I’m going to fall back into one because I’m not bipolar and, and that typically doesn’t happen. [00:49:11] Christina: That if, if it got me out of that, then, then maybe that’ll be… Uh, and then, you know, have time to start looking at, you know, other, um, alternatives because of, you know, uh, the reason I’ve been on something, um, consistently is been because like my doctor has been afraid, like because of how bad my, my depressions have been, especially when I was younger. [00:49:34] Christina: You know, it would be, it would be something I would have to be on like almost like as a maintenance and like as a preventative thing as much as anything else. Um, and, and I think that’s fair. Um, so it’s probably not a long term solution, but I think that I at least have some time to, uh. You know, not be drugged out and not be, like, horrifically depressed and then figure things out. [00:49:59] Christina: So hopefully [00:50:00] things are on the upswing. [00:50:01] Brett: All right. How much do you know about disability protections in our line of work? [00:50:07] Christina: I don’t. [00:50:09] Brett: I don’t either. Like when I, when I, uh, filled out my, uh, like onboarding stuff for Oracle, I, I said, I have a disability and they didn’t, they didn’t specify, like they listed what qualifies as a disability, but they didn’t make you say which one. [00:50:29] Christina: Right, exactly, because I can’t. [00:50:31] Brett: And then Moom. In the first three out of like six managers I’ve had now, I was, I clearly stated like, here are, here, here’s my disability. Here’s what to look out for. Here’s why I got like a month’s worth of work done last weekend. And here’s why I am going to be offline for the next two weeks. Um, and, and they were accepting of that and they, but it wasn’t at a corporate [00:51:00] level. [00:51:00] Brett: Um. And since, like, I’ve been through, like, manager upheaval for the last six months, like, I’m on my third manager in six months, and I haven’t had that, like, one on one discussion to, like, let them know where I’m at, and I, I’m always curious if, if I hit, like, a period of depression, just as an example, that takes me offline for a while. [00:51:28] Brett: A couple weeks or more. Um, do I have any protection by law? [00:51:35] Christina: Um, I think that it depends. I mean, I think the thing is, is that, again, this is usually what disability insurance is for, which, you know, companies will offer. And, like, they can’t fire you. If you let them know that this is like a disabled, like a thing, but if you pass a certain number of days that you are off, uh, I do know that, uh, at most places, and this is covered by law, it will go from, you know, sick leave, whatever, to [00:52:00] now you actually have to go on disability leave. [00:52:03] Christina: And, and, and, and, and that’s it. And the number of those things, that’s going to depend on, on where you work. Um, but, um, There is a certain point, a certain number of hours where it does, it switches, um, and, and you have to, uh, you know, go on, take your disability leave or whatever. [00:52:21] Jay: Yeah. That was my, the talk that I gave a few times last year was like dealing with, Hey, I have ADHD. What would I have? What would I have told myself? How would I have navigated this process? Um, as I was getting hired and I mean, again, like they can’t force you to tell them the ADA, uh, American Disabilities Act, um, the way that they define it as a disability is anything that requires some level of assistance to do your job. [00:52:53] Jay: So if you do disclose it and you can say like, Hey, [00:52:56] Christina: Mm hmm. [00:52:57] Jay: I do need assistance, like regular [00:53:00] therapy appointments, talking to a professional, certain equipment things, if you’ve specified that you need those things and they ignored them and then. terminated your employment agreement because of the things that you specified, then potentially they could be liable. [00:53:18] Jay: But a lot of that is if you have disclosed officially, probably with even including like HR, um, which again, I understand that there’s always that like, One, I don’t work for HR. You should talk to your HR before you go and like, listen to me just spouting off, but in the process of preparing for this, I talked to a few folks who are HR professionals and they all basically said, if you tell your boss, if you tell HR and you specify, these are the things that help me to do my job better, that does provide at least some level of initial protection for you. [00:53:56] Jay: But the, the problem is, is they [00:54:00] only have to. Accommodate you based on the needs of the role. So if they say, we can’t, we can’t meet those needs, and you know, the job wouldn’t be the same if we met those needs, they have to show proof, but so do you. [00:54:16] Brett: Sure. [00:54:17] Jay: you know, how much of a, of a battle with, and how many lawyers does your company have? [00:54:21] Jay: It’s kind of the challenge there. [00:54:24] Brett: Yeah. Alright. Well, that’s good info for the listeners. [00:54:29] Christina: Yeah, uh, yeah, and, and I’ll say too, one of the, one of the things is, is that just like if you go on any sort of leave, like if your job is eliminated for, Like some reason that they’re saying is, is not associated with your work or anything like that, but just there was a reorganization and this job no longer exists. [00:54:45] Christina: Then again, like you need to talk to an employment lawyer at that point, but, but they, they, they can do that. And, and that’s not, that’s not a thing that unfortunately, just like if you go on, you know, maternity or paternity leave, and when you come back, your job is not there. That’s a real thing that [00:55:00] happens. [00:55:00] Christina: And, and there’s not a lot of recourse you have over that, unfortunately. [00:55:04] Brett: And that makes sense. I mean, from, if I were a corporation, I, I don’t, I don’t support the idea of finding back roads to eliminate somebody, uh, to eliminate their position, but if honestly, I don’t support the You need to reorg and that position no longer exists. You shouldn’t be held responsible because that person had a disability. [00:55:30] Brett: Um, just from a very capitalist perspective, um, it makes sense that you can eliminate a position if you want to. You just can’t fire someone specifically for their disability. [00:55:44] Christina: Right, right. The only thing you’ve got to be careful with in that is that unfortunately there are, um, you know, not, um, uncommon situations where people will use that as an excuse to get rid of someone who might actually have a dis you know, because they have a disability [00:56:00] or some other thing, [00:56:00] Brett: Yeah. And I don’t support that. [00:56:02] Christina: No, no, I know you don’t. [00:56:03] Christina: I know you don’t. I’m just saying that that, that’s the thing is that they can use that sometimes as an excuse to really get rid of people they want to get rid of, but you know, um, uh, and every state is different. California is obviously going to be significantly better than any other state when it comes to employment rules. [00:56:16] Christina: New York would then be, um, next best after that. Um, but yeah, um, uh, there are like federal rules, but, you know, our federal government doesn’t really give a shit. Um, so, you know, check with those things, check with your employment lawyers. But I don’t know in terms of like our specific professions, like, that has been a concern of mine in some senses. [00:56:36] Christina: Just it’s like, okay, well, am I gonna, you know, like, that’s always been my fear about taking any sort of leave is… You know, will, will there be a job when I get back, you know, um, and I, I guess I’ve, I’ve kind of gotten over that to the point where I’m like, well, even if there’s not, you’ve got to do the right thing, you know, for your, for your health first, which as I said, that’s a new thing for me, uh, because historically I would not [00:57:00] prioritize my health. [00:57:01] Brett: Sure. [00:57:02] Christina: I would not prioritize anything over my career, [00:57:04] Brett: that’s, that’s an amazing development because you have, you have potential, like you could work for almost any company, same with Jay. I feel like I have a certain amount of potential. Um, we can. We can prioritize, we can prioritize our health, we can prioritize our well being over some cushy corporate job and know that we’re going to land on our feet. [00:57:31] Brett: Not everybody has that, uh, that security. Whether, I think a lot of people have that security and don’t accept it about themselves. Like, me for one. Like, I feel like if I lost my job, I’m fucked. Uh, even though, like, I think you would, you would both say, I have options. [00:57:55] Christina: No, see, I was gonna say, I think a lot of us have that same feeling where, like, [00:58:00] other people would tell us what you’re telling us, and then we would tell you the same thing that we’re telling you, or, you know, that you’re telling us. Um, but internally, we’re like, Oh, no. I’m fucked. Like, there’s no way I’ll ever get hired again. [00:58:11] Christina: And I think it’s especially hard, um, doing the sorts of things that we do, because a lot of times we are some of the first roles eliminated. Uh, and we see that, and we don’t necessarily take stock of our own situations and go, Okay, well… Our situations might be a little bit different than, you know, some of our peers, not, not to say they always are, but you know, we might not give ourselves the credit that we, we should give ourselves [00:58:33] Brett: this brings me back, uh, so at the beginning, Jay was like, nobody knows how to define DevRel, and I was talking with coworkers, Victor and Aaron, who have both been on this show, um, About how there’s also no metric for determining our effectiveness and success. Um, like we can say the [00:59:00] company’s stock value increased and sure. [00:59:03] Brett: We may have been a part of that, or we may not have, um, like our roles are very hard to quantify and therefore our jobs are always insecure, [00:59:15] Christina: No, totally. I mean, and, and there are ways that you can do OKRs and that you can get metrics out of it. And, and I’ve had various success in trying to identify those things on various teams I’ve been on, but you’re right to actually show the real value. A lot of it is a, is a complete hedge and is complete bullshit. [00:59:29] Christina: And so my. What my answer to that has always been, okay, um, you’re right. You, we don’t have traditional metrics and you can’t do traditional, um, things that you could do in a lot of other roles to show, you know, this number of, you know, bugs was quashed and, and quality software quality has increased this amount and we’ve shipped this many releases and this and that, like, those are not things that you can do what you can do. [00:59:51] Christina: And, and, and again, it’s, it’s going to be nebulous and it’s going to be unofficial because. The role is, and because a lot of these things are impossible to [01:00:00] really measure, but that means to me, I think, the way that you show your value is that you tell a really good fucking story. And you go out of your way to show your value that way by saying, these are the sorts of engagements that we’ve had, and these have been direct things we can draw from that, right? [01:00:14] Christina: Because in some cases you can say, hey, like, you know, I had an engagement with this customer, and then they increased their spend by this much, right? You don’t always have that, but you can. You can show No, not always, but I’m saying that you do have that occasionally, and when you have those things, you have to use that as your, whether that, whether that result was because of you or not, right? [01:00:33] Christina: Like, you have to, like, almost take credit for that, right? And so, you know, okay, you know, we had this many more people, you know, at our, our conference, or we grew our social media followings by this amount, or we had this many engagements, or whatever the case may be, you have to find these things that are not always attributable to what you did. [01:00:50] Christina: But find a way to then fucking tell that story to show this is the value we have. Um, but, but that’s… Way easier said than done. [01:00:58] Brett: For my year, [01:01:00] for my year end review, I wrote an article about advanced query parameters in the Oracle OCI, uh, command line tool, which was super niche. Like, I don’t, I don’t know who would be interested in it, but it made it into the top 20 articles on Oracle developers for the year. And I get to claim that and like, that’s a metric. [01:01:29] Brett: I can say this had, this had enough engagement that it rose to the top, top 20 out of thousands of articles that were published last year. So I. I have Ametric. [01:01:43] Jay: Christina has has definitely heard me share like the highlight of my career is, as our lawyers would say, I suggested that my work had been plagiarized by major publications and that was just a thing that I was not [01:02:00] mentally prepared for. So yeah, like any, any time that you can be like, yo, this thing happened and while it was good, also look at, look at the direct source from where this came from. [01:02:13] Jay: But it, it is kind of fun because I, the, the people in this call like match up to this theory that I have for like a really solid DevRel team where you have three aspects. You have a. General hype beast, a flava flav if you will. You have like the super technical like Chuck D type person and then you have like the producer who like makes things palatable and like makes things work. [01:02:43] Jay: Um, [01:02:44] Brett: name in Public Enemy? [01:02:46] Jay: I feel so bad because I don’t [01:02:48] Brett: Yeah, I can’t remember either. I want, yeah. I can remember NWA’s DJ, but I [01:02:53] Christina: I mean, uh, Fl Fl Flav, right? [01:02:55] Brett: No, Flava Flav was the hype man. [01:02:58] Jay: Yeah, he just shouted. [01:02:59] Brett: [01:03:00] and Mike D was the MC. [01:03:02] Jay: Chuck D. [01:03:02] Brett: Chuck D. Sorry, Chuck D. Oh, [01:03:04] Christina: Oh, uh, well, I had to look this up. It’s DJ Lord. [01:03:08] Brett: Org. Wow, I don’t even know that name. He just never, [01:03:11] Christina: no, no, no, no, no, no, you’re right. No, he didn’t know, because he’s right. Because he he didn’t join until the 40th anniversary. 40th world tour, so that was 99, so he’s not it. So Wikipedia failed me there. Sammy Sam? [01:03:22] Brett: Yes, that sounds right. Yeah. [01:03:25] Christina: would that would be correct, okay. [01:03:27] Jay: but like, good devrel [01:03:28] Brett: just to finish your metaphor here. [01:03:31] Jay: yeah, but like, good devrel teams need all three. Like, you can’t just have someone who… Like, I can write a super technical blog post, but then, like, don’t share it with anyone, or don’t get up on stage and have those conversations with people that point back to that blog post. [01:03:52] Jay: Because, I mean, that’s my problem. Like, I’m in, I’m in the Python community. Python people don’t go to Microsoft. com to learn stuff about Python. [01:04:00] So, like, you have to go where they are. And, and sometimes you just need someone who can get into that room and shout Flava Flav as loud as possible. [01:04:08] Christina: Bingo. [01:04:09] Jay: And, I mean, you, you do really need all three. [01:04:12] Jay: You need someone that can, like, manicure a really tight production, someone who can get super technical, super deep on things, and then someone who literally just shouts Flava Flav. Now go look at that blog post. And exactly, like, and it’s cool that, I think good advocates know kind of where they fit in that model, and then they surround themselves with the other individuals. [01:04:41] Brett: Yeah. [01:04:43] Christina: No, I think you’re exactly right. Um, and, uh, yeah. And I, um, I’m also just a side note to close the ones. I’m so glad that you were able to give that talk, um, about, uh, uh, hip hop and the Python community, because when you talked to me about that at a, what was it, it was a scale this year, [01:05:00] like that I was like, yes, I need to see that. [01:05:02] Christina: So I’m really glad you were able to, to get that talk, uh, written and accepted. [01:05:05] Jay: The first comment that I heard was like, but for real, can we just stop and talk about Jay’s talk straight fire? I was like, yes, that’s, that’s going on my, uh, my highlight reel. [01:05:18] Brett: Nice. All right. So we are Over an hour in, and we just finished Mental Health Corner. [01:05:26] Christina: that’s just the episode. We’re just going to have to go into gratitude. I think. [01:05:30] Brett: do, do you, okay, how much time do you guys have? [01:05:35] Christina: I mean, I have time. [01:05:37] Jay: I have time, I don’t know how much time our listeners have. [01:05:39] We had to do some Taylor Swift stuff [01:05:39] Brett: Sure, you know what, if they sat through a DevRel discussion, they’re still with us, I think they deserve to hear Christina’s thoughts on the 1989 re release. [01:05:53] Christina: Okay. Thank you. I will try to be brief. Alright, so, background. Taylor Swift is re recording all of her [01:06:00] albums, at least the ones that she did for Big Machine. Um, so that’s gonna be her first, uh, six, uh, debut, Fearless, uh, Speak Now, Red, 1989, and Reputation. So far, Fearless, uh, Speak Now, um, Red, and as of this week, 1989, have been re recorded. [01:06:17] Christina: 1989 being her, her biggest… The commercial selling album, the one that has Blank Space, Style, Shake It Off, uh, Wildest Dreams, New Romantics, and I’m missing a single as Out of the Woods as the singles, uh, you know, [01:06:33] Brett: A. K. A. her best song, sure. [01:06:36] Christina: I mean, I, I mean, I would argue [01:06:38] Brett: Bratz Top Picks. [01:06:40] Christina: Brett’s top picks, absolutely. I was going to say most people’s top picks. [01:06:42] Christina: Most people, when you hear Taylor Swift, you are thinking of those songs. Like, at least if you came up, if you became aware of her during her pop era. Um, so this is her biggest album, um, and, and so this is the big one to be re recorded. And it came out on the 9th anniversary of the original release, [01:07:00] which was exciting. [01:07:01] Christina: And I, I’m going to be honest. The re record of Red… I wasn’t in love with because I thought the mixing was wrong, and I thought the mixing was bad, to be honest, on a lot of tracks. Some tracks I was not at all happy with what happened, some I was fine with. The thing that saved that album for me was that A, we got the 10 minute version of All Too Well, which is the centerpiece and a masterpiece, and we got the short film. [01:07:26] Christina: And we had some really, really exceptional, um, uh, bonus tracks, uh, or from, from the Vault tracks. And so that… To me, kind of let go of my, uh, I guess, disappointment with the fact that songs like Holy Ground were not mixed well. And, uh, the vocals were great, but were not mixed well. And that means that I will forever be listening to the original versions. [01:07:46] Christina: And, and Swifties who are like, you can’t listen to the original versions. Go fuck yourself, first of all. I will stream or listen to them as much as I want because I bought them. I bought all of them. And I bought many, many, many, many copies of all of her Taylor’s versions. And I’ve spent [01:08:00] thousands of dollars on her for concert tickets. [01:08:02] Christina: And fuck off. I will listen to whatever versions I want. And she’s still getting half of the royalties anyway because she’s the songwriter. So… Honestly, she’s a billionaire now. She doesn’t need you to defend her. Moving on. I was hopeful about 1989 because Speak Now, her third album, the re record on that was excellent. [01:08:21] Christina: The mastering was really good. The vocals were good. There was one lyric change that I’m still not over. But aside from that, like, it was great. Like, Enchanted, which is in my top three songs, I was very concerned that that would not be able to be recreated well because her voice is older now and better. [01:08:39] Christina: It was brilliant. It was perfect. So I was very hopeful that 1989, like my second favorite Taylor album, depending on the week, was going to be good. Listeners, I regret to inform you that she fucked up. And she, um, if you are not a person who has listened to that album hundreds or thousands of times as I [01:09:00] have, you won’t pick up on all the intricacies of how the fuck up happened. [01:09:04] Christina: Out of the Woods is fine. Style is not. Style, which is… Also one of my top three songs. The mix is terrible. It is just, if you listen to the two back to back on Spotify or Apple Music, or from your own collections, you will hear that the mix is fucking terrible. And I, my new favorite Twitter account called, uh, TaylorIsALiar, um, which that has been the Which is, that has been their username for a long time. [01:09:26] Christina: I love this Twitter account. And they were sending out some of the funniest memes about what she did to style. And I was like, I am following you now. And they followed me back because they saw some of my tweets. And I was like, I feel, um, good, uh, that we are like on the same page here. Um, but no, the, the mixing is… [01:09:45] Christina: Not great on a lot of the tracks, and I’m going to put it to you like this. She, for whatever reason, did not bring back Max Martin and Shellback to produce the album, especially Max Martin. And they co wrote most of the big hits on [01:10:00] the album. Shellback did come back for Red, and he did 22, um, um, uh, We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together, and um, uh, Um, the one with the, anyway, um, I Knew You Were Trouble. [01:10:15] Christina: He came back and produced those, and he also came back and worked on, um, Wildest Dreams, which was also one of her singles, and that was re recorded and re released earlier because she wanted to sell the sync rights for it. He did not come back on any of the other tracks on Red and Max Martin, or not, uh, excuse me, 1989, and Max Martin has not been involved in either. [01:10:35] Christina: The rumors are that Taylor, uh, didn’t want to pay Max Martin the money he wanted, and that he wanted You know, maybe like more producing credits than she was willing to give him. I think that was a mistake. Um, uh, that album is every bit as much his as it is hers. And he would not have mixed it the way that it was mixed. [01:10:53] Christina: That’s all I’m saying. Like you can, I’m not saying he’s the greatest producer or songwriter in music history. I’m not claiming that. I am saying that he [01:11:00] would not have mixed it the way that it was mixed. The Jack Antonoff song sounded better than the Max Martin Shellback songs, but Jack Antonoff then got in his studio and did all of his Jack Antonoff shit and made it like. [01:11:10] Christina: There are some background things that are good, and there’s some where I’m like, I get what you were doing, dude, because you had no adult supervision and no editor, and you wanted to make these things different and sound better, but I don’t know if this really was additive or not. But it didn’t take away, but the Max Martin tracks The mix is terrible, and so, I’m very, very upset, and uh, I think that she, I think she whiffed it. [01:11:32] Christina: It’s not gonna matter, this will still, I think it sold over a million copies, uh, which is insane for a re recording. Um, and, and it’s gonna be this monster hit, and she’s gonna now be able to sell the music rights, uh, to all the different, you know, commercials and movies and anything she wants, so she’s gonna be fine. [01:11:48] Christina: But, um, yeah, no, I regret to inform you, it’s not good, and, and I’m very upset, and that’s, that’s my rant. [01:11:55] Brett: That was, that was under 10 minutes, and I have to say, I was watching Jay’s [01:12:00] face through the whole thing, and he was fascinated. I don’t think he gives a shit about Taylor Swift. Like, your level of nerdery, your like level of knowledge about this was like, he’s like, oh my god, that’s [01:12:15] Jay: I, so only because I do want my wife to hear this at some point, I am actually a bigger Miley Cyrus fan than I am a Taylor fan. Um, but my, in my head, I was just like, Hmm, it sounds like Taylor needs to reorg her DevRel team. [01:12:34] Christina: Yeah, yeah, she does. Also, Taylor, and I love, she does, and here’s the thing, I love Taylor, but I was having this conversation with my friend Shantani about this, because we were all of us, we stayed up late, we were like listening, we were all excited, and then we were like, wait a minute, and some people were like, well, it’s just because it’s different. [01:12:50] Christina: If you had never heard the originals before, you wouldn’t have any problem with this. You’re probably right. However, the originals do exist, and, and your, your goal is now to convince me to listen to the [01:13:00] new ones, not the, um, old ones, and you failed. Failed. I do like some of the vault tracks, but, like, I’m never gonna listen to these other re recorded versions ever again. [01:13:09] Brett: I don’t understand how someone with Taylor Swift resources… Would fuck up a mix. [01:13:15] Christina: It’s hubris. She didn’t think she needed him. And I don’t know how much she cares about… I don’t know. Like, to me, Speak Now was done with a ton of care, and it was almost proof that, like, I feel like that’s maybe, like, her favorite album, secretly. Like, I feel like maybe she loves that one the most. And Red, the whole thing wasn’t fucked up, it was only a couple of tracks. [01:13:40] Christina: And again, the All Too Well thing was such a big part of that, that it made me think that was the focus. But it makes me wonder, if like, she just doesn’t give that much of a shit about 1989. Like, she knows that her biggest, most successful album, but she’s also kind of like, Well, this set me up for like, a really genuinely awful part of my life, when everybody came after me, after the success of that [01:14:00] album. [01:14:00] Christina: So maybe she was just kind of like, I just need to get this so that I can sell the sync rights. I don’t really care and I don’t think I need Max Martin because I have Jack Antonoff and I have these other guys and fuck you Max Martin, you want a million dollars, you want, you know, producing credits, I’m not going to give you that. [01:14:16] Christina: And I think that’s a mistake because I think that, again, every bit as much his album as hers. And… I don’t think he would have let it go out with a mix like that. I’m just saying. Like, maybe he would have. Maybe I’m wrong. But I don’t think he would have let the mix go out sounding the way that it sounded. [01:14:30] Jay: I wonder if it’s, I wonder if it’s similar to the situation Jay Z had when he became the president of Def Jam. Like a part of the deal of becoming the president was he got rights to all of his tracks that were under them. So getting, getting rights to your masters is like. A super big deal as an artist and for him it was more like I don’t really care about the music. [01:14:53] Jay: I want my kids to be able to do whatever they want with [01:15:00] the art that I’ve created. And I feel like maybe in Taylor’s case there’s this level of like I don’t really care how it sounds as long as I can say it’s mine. [01:15:12] Christina: I think that that might be true, but I also think that she does care very much about the stuff. But I think she cares about the originals, right? Like, This is my, this has been my working theory. She is doing everything she can to devalue those original masters, so that she can buy them back for like 150 million. [01:15:28] Christina: And she’s close to doing that at this point. Because at this point, all of the streaming services will not playlist. Any of the originals, they will only playlist her versions. And that means that the way that the next generation of fans are going to hear these albums, they will never hear the originals. [01:15:45] Christina: They will only hear the Taylor’s versions. And that also means because she’s the songwriter, the only way that these things can be, um, uh, licensed to, to television or movies. are if they license the Taylor’s version and she will never let those original copies be [01:16:00] licensed. So at some point, the owner of those masters are going to, I think, be faced with a situation where they have to write down, you know, their purchase. [01:16:08] Christina: And I think she’s just waiting for that to happen. And then the second that happens, she’s going to resell us the originals. Because She loves those, like those she, she did work on, and she did care about, and like, she’s compared them to, like, in many ways, like, you know, like, her scrapbook of, like, growing up, which is true, like, the music videos are literally, like, it’s her childhood and, and early, like, adolescence and, like, early adulthood are those albums, and they are owned by someone else, and that has to be devastating. [01:16:38] Christina: But with the exception of Speak Now and Fearless to a certain extent, I don’t think she’s put in that much care, at least in the mixing aspect of 1989. The one thing I will say that is better, also sometimes not, because it doesn’t, maybe being better doesn’t matter, her vocals are So much better [01:17:00] in the in the nine years and and it’s it’s one of those things where you hear the power and you’re like Wow, she’s been taking voice lessons and that is actually pretty amazing to hear because you expect it maybe on the earlier albums I didn’t expect to be able to hear that difference Between 1989 and now, because in my mind, 1989 still feels like it was released a couple of years ago. [01:17:21] Christina: Uh, blame COVID, blame whatever, you know, blame the fact that it is, you know, one of the biggest albums of the last decade, but like, it doesn’t feel like that album is, is, you know, a decade old. But the vocal difference is profound in some cases, and, um, the production just isn’t. So, better vocals, worse production, some decent bonus, uh, vault tracks, but I’m, I’m never going to intentionally stream. [01:17:46] Christina: The Taylor’s versions. I’m just, I’m just not. [01:17:49] Brett: Alright. [01:17:50] Jay: game, if the long game is to [01:17:52] Brett: Oh, you’re gonna keep this conversation [01:17:54] Christina: no, no, no, no, [01:17:55] Jay: I’m genuinely [01:17:56] Christina: No, no, I love it! I love it! Do it! Do [01:17:58] Jay: If the, if the long game is [01:18:00] to re release the originals with, with Taylor being the owner. I feel it benefits her to have the sound be just sonically different so that people have a reason to want the originals back. [01:18:15] Jay: Uh, [01:18:15] Christina: Yeah, I mean, to be clear, it’s close enough that if, again, if you didn’t know, and most people who are gonna hear this on the radio are not gonna be listening in, like, high end headphones, And you’re not gonna know. [01:18:24] Jay: people that buy the album, they’re going to be the people that stream it on YouTube or Spotify or Apple Music. The people who are going to buy the album will definitely notice the [01:18:31] Brett: buys albums? [01:18:32] Christina: Taylor Swift fans. [01:18:34] Brett: Okay. [01:18:34] Christina: Genuinely. Like, she sold, I think she’s gonna do a million pure sales, or close to that, of this album. Most of it in vinyl. Um, and, and, and it’s, yeah, most of it in fucking vinyl [01:18:44] Jay: Cassettes flying off the shelves. [01:18:46] Christina: cassettes, yeah, vinyl cassettes and, and different colored CDs. Um, I think she had seven different vinyl colors this time. [01:18:53] Christina: Um, yes, I bought all of them. Whatever. Um, You know, like, it is what it is. [01:19:00] Yeah, no, but Taylor Swift fans are the ones who buy albums. So, I think you’re right, Jay, like, when she re releases them, who knows what’ll happen on streaming. But, yeah, maybe she wants it slightly different. I just think that, that’s just my personal theory, is that as soon as she can get them cheap enough, she will buy them back. [01:19:17] Christina: And then re release them to all of us, and make us buy them in, like, a big, huge box set. [01:19:24] Jay: 200 box [01:19:24] Christina: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And they will fly off the fucking shelves. [01:19:29] Brett: should we do some Graptitude? [01:19:30] Christina: Let’s do it. [01:19:35] Brett: I, I, [01:19:36] Christina: thank, thank you, Brett, for indulging me. [01:19:38] Brett: Honestly, like we could become a Miley Cyrus podcast. [01:19:43] Christina: actually. We would love that. [01:19:44] Brett: I’d be down with that. Uh, [01:19:46] Jay: I’m also, just, [01:19:48] Brett: when Jay becomes a co host, we’ll, we’ll consider rebranding. [01:19:53] Jay: I, I, Noah, most talent. [01:19:57] Christina: Noah’s very good. Noah’s very good. [01:20:00] Yeah. [01:20:00] Jay: But, but I do, I do love the evolution of Miley just [01:20:04] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of fascinating, [01:20:06] Christina: Actually, it’s funny. It was like all, like, me, Brett, and, and, um, and Jeff have all talked about that. Like, we really do love Miley. Um, Noah, I, I kind of agree with you most talent, but she doesn’t have the, she doesn’t have the star appeal. That’s the problem. Like, like, like Miley. Has, like, the it factor. [01:20:21] Christina: She just does. [01:20:23] Jay: I feel like it’s mentorship though. Like I, I could imagine in 30 years, Miley is the Dolly Parton of that era. [01:20:33] Brett: You think [01:20:34] Jay: And again, that’s, that’s who her mentor is. Like [01:20:36] Christina: Uh, I don’t know. [01:20:39] Brett: I don’t think Miley has had a Jolie or a 9 to 5. [01:20:43] Christina: No, [01:20:44] Jay: Well, she recorded those, but… [01:20:45] Christina: she [01:20:46] Brett: did, she did. And she did a damn good job [01:20:48] Christina: okay, here, [01:20:49] Brett: It was, it was spot on. [01:20:51] Christina: Here’s the thing. I think that, like, God, and it’s a decade old now. My God, I cannot believe this. But, like, We Can’t Stop is, is, [01:21:00] is a fucking, like, nearly perfect pop song. [01:21:02] Brett: A banger. [01:21:03] Christina: it is a true banger, um, from bangers. Uh, so, so I, I don’t know if that was intentional or not, Brett, but very good work. [01:21:11] Christina: Um, I mean, everybody always talks wrecking ball, but like, honestly, the, the song from that album for me is we can’t stop. Like that is the song for me. Um, I mean, wrecking ball is iconic, but we can’t stop. Like, I just, I watched that. I, I just get happy every time I hear that song or watch that music video. [01:21:26] Christina: Cause I’m like, that actually looks like like a. person who’s like 20 years old’s party, like genuinely, you know, like [01:21:34] Brett: I’m gonna. In the show notes, I’m gonna drop, um, an acoustic version of Wrecking Ball, a cover that, honestly, like anyone who cares at all, or even if you don’t care, even if you think you hate Miley Cyrus, this acoustic version of Wrecking Ball, You’ll be like, I [01:22:00] gotta admit, that’s a good song. [01:22:01] Christina: It is. It is. Now, to be fair, she did not write [01:22:05] Brett: Oh, understood. She, I don’t think she has writing credits on a lot of her stuff, [01:22:10] Christina: Most of them she doesn’t know. On her last two albums, she does. Um, uh, and she does have a writing credit on We Can’t Stop, but she’s way on the bottom of the list. So that goes that far, but no, Wrecking Ball is, is a Dr. Luke song. So, [01:22:25] Brett: yeah. But it’s a, it’s a good song and she made it. [01:22:29] Christina: She made it great. [01:22:30] Grapptitude [01:22:30] Brett: All right. All right. Craptitude. Let’s, let’s kick it off with Jay. [01:22:37] Jay: Um, I, I was conflicted by this. Um, I, I, I work for Microsoft. I’m not telling you that you should spend the money and get an Office 365 license. But I will say that, um, one, if you do, make sure you put in a note somewhere that it was directly because of me. Um, again, [01:22:57] Brett: Sure, cause that’s the only metric [01:22:59] Christina: Yeah. Cause[01:23:00] [01:23:00] Jay: exactly. Exactly. But, but the other side is if you do presentations, consider PowerPoint. [01:23:08] Jay: Like, there are so many new features, especially if you haven’t touched PowerPoint in like, There’s so many new features like automated transcriptions, things to do like, you know, practice a lot of the stuff that that Apple released in Keynote has been in PowerPoint for a while. Uh, we were talking earlier about like the easiest way to. [01:23:31] Jay: Build PowerPoints now is literally to start with a white background, black text, put what you want on the screen and then hit the designer button and just let it like wrap your images and move things around and come up with custom icons for them. Like it is absolutely fantastic. And YouTube has me pegged because now whenever I look at YouTube shorts, at least 15 of them in like, Three minutes will be, [01:24:00] here is some PowerPoint hack that, you know, takes you 30 seconds to learn. [01:24:05] Jay: And I am genuinely having fun nerding out on like, as I’m trying to do more eccentric styled talks, like I’m just nerding out on like, how can I really like add pop and flair to these? And again, it, it sounds corny as hell to be like, yeah, PowerPoint, you should totally check that out. Also Excel, Python, it’s coming. [01:24:27] Jay: Um, That’s enough promotion for my employer, but like, for real, if you haven’t played around with PowerPoint, just like, open it up and see what’s in there, and like, try to do some really fun stuff with it, like, you can, you can definitely get away with doing something. [01:24:42] Christina: Yeah. [01:24:43] Brett: about the toolbar? [01:24:45] Jay: I don’t even think about the toolbar. [01:24:47] Christina: Yeah. The ribbon, the ribbon’s like, that’s, I don’t know. I feel like that’s an old conversation at this point. Like I feel like, yeah, because it’s been changed significantly over time and it’s [01:24:56] Brett: can’t even, I can’t even use it. Like, I, I have to use [01:25:00] PowerPoint for work, and I have been impressed with the designer and transcription and stuff like that, but it loads up, and I get that toolbar overjammed with things that change as soon as [01:25:15] Jay: no. [01:25:16] Brett: as soon [01:25:17] Jay: Type in help and go directly to what you’re looking for. [01:25:19] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say that’s what I do. [01:25:22] Jay: Or look for the, if you can set up panes, like, the arrangement. The thing that completely morphs your window and puts everything in a bunch of different rows and you can slide them back and forth, that’s flashy and all, but like, if you go to the actual arrangement, like selector, it’s literally just a list that you can drag up and down. [01:25:41] Jay: And like, that’s the easiest way to select specific assets, like on a particular slide. So [01:25:47] Christina: Yeah, and I would say actually in that regard I think it’s like better than, than, than Keynote, um, you know, at this point, uh, because, you know, Keynote’s inspector or whatnot, like, it’s just, I, I agree, like, seeing that pane and seeing, like, how it visually shows off how that stuff [01:26:00] works is really nice. Um, Control Command U, Brett, uh, just remember that, that’ll immediately get you to just, like, typing in, like, the search bar, and yeah, I, I would agree with, with Jay, I usually just search for what I wanna do rather than fucking with any of the… [01:26:12] Christina: The menus. [01:26:13] Brett: Control command U. All right. That’s [01:26:15] Christina: But, and I’m gonna plus one you because I haven’t, I’ve been afraid to share this, um, publicly, but yeah, PowerPoint at this point, it’s kind of like my usual go to if I’m not doing my thing in like a markdown situation. Um, uh, sorry Google Slides and, and sorry Keynote, but I feel like Keynote, which was the greatest app for… [01:26:34] Christina: Years and years and years has basically just become abandonware and Apple is like completely in keeping the lights on mode with all of, you know, their office products and, uh, yeah, like the transcript stuff and the designer stuff alone, not to mention the fact that it’s more compatible with everything at this point means that like, I, I don’t really use Keynote anymore. [01:26:56] Brett: true. Pages, keynote numbers have not [01:27:00] gotten, they haven’t been part of a keynote address for as long as I can remember. They are keeping the lights on. You’re right. You’re right. [01:27:12] Jay: PowerPoint, that’s me. [01:27:15] Brett: All right. Christina, tell us what you got. [01:27:17] Christina: All right, so my pick is going to be Keyboard Maestro 11, which came out, uh, I think like last week. And, uh, this is just like, this is an app that we’ve talked about before. Um, I love it. I, um, really, really, um, Like it’s one of these apps that I don’t use as much as I could, but that every time I jump into it just a little bit, I realize how much I like it. [01:27:37] Christina: And there are a lot of different automation apps out there. Um, you know, there, there’s a better touch tool and, and obviously you can do some similar things with things like text expander, but I really love the interface and the stability of, um, Keyboard Maestro. And so I oftentimes use. All three of those for different things. [01:27:54] Christina: But, um, if you’re somebody who, you know, wants to have a really good way of automating stuff or, or [01:28:00] doing very specific things with keystrokes, I love, love, love Keyboard Maestro and the new version includes a CLI. Which is very exciting. So now you can just run Keyboard Maestro, um, in your command line to run, um, some of your automations, which I think is really cool. [01:28:17] Christina: And, uh, so, um, uh, congrats to them for, you know, uh, continuing to put out a really, really good app. And, and this was one of those things I got the email about my upgrade and I was like, that is absolutely, I was like, this is the easiest, like, 18 dollars or whatever that I could spend. Yeah, totally. So, Keyword Meister is my pick. [01:28:36] Brett: not just for, for keystrokes, like you can, you can find so many different things as triggers and keyboard maestro, um, like MIDI keys, for example, like you can have, you can have a chord on your, on your MIDI keyboard next to your desk, launch an app. [01:28:54] Christina: yeah, you can use it with your, uh, with your, with your stream deck. [01:28:57] Jay: Yep. [01:28:58] Brett: Yep. All kinds of crazy [01:29:00] stuff. [01:29:00] Brett: Um, I think, [01:29:02] Jay: Bunch. [01:29:03] Brett: yep. Yep. I, I do actually. I use [01:29:07] Jay: I think I have a [01:29:08] Brett: my Stream Deck to trigger Keyboard Maestro to trigger Bunch. Um, but it’s, uh, the, the, when Shortcuts came out, And they included a command line utility for running shortcuts. I feel like that prompted some of the automation, all, some of the like venerated automation apps to like come up with a command line utility, which I think has been a good step forward because a lot of us, a lot of us who are capable of creating complex keyboard maestro actions. Probably want to call it from the command line, um, you know, or through a script. And so I think that’s a, a very wise addition. [01:29:57] Jay: Oh, yeah, I, I have [01:30:00] definitely written a video about using Keyboard Maestro to launch other automation tools like Bunch. Also, shout out to like, two years ago, Hair, oh my goodness, that was, that was a phase. Uh, [01:30:16] Brett: All right. So my pick for the week, here we are. We’re an hour and a half in, this is going to be, this is a [01:30:23] Jay: stop bringing attention to it, they won’t notice. [01:30:25] Brett: They’ll never notice. Cause this has been so riveting that no one has paid attention to the progress of time. Um, I. I’m gonna pick ImageMagick, and, uh, I had originally had, uh, Things vs. [01:30:41] Brett: OmniFocus on my list here, but then we started talking about how I’ve automated my, uh, giveaway posts on my blog and every one of those posts starts with a picture of a robot holding the icon of the app I’m giving [01:31:00] away and then ends with a picture of the robot holding the icon on top of a confetti background. [01:31:06] Brett: And it’s the same for every post and I thought, I thought, God, I should be able to create these automatically. And RetroBatch could do it. RetroBatch can’t overlay images in that way. So I dug in and I got down to ImageMagick, which is a command line utility you can install with Homebrew. And it’s… It’s, um, capabilities are immense and it’s command line options are intense. [01:31:38] Brett: Um, you will have to Google everything you want to do, uh, in order to put it together. But now I can type robot and then the name of any application on, uh, my local machine or on Either the Mac App Store or the iOS App Store, [01:32:00] and it will automatically generate the robot holding that icon, and it will generate the confetti image, um, in, in one keystroke, and it will automatically create the, uh, WebP and I, I, uh, Twitter and Facebook sharing images for that, uh, post header and it is, it’s. It’s an intensely complex command line utility, but, uh, honestly, like, there’s nothing else that can do what it does. [01:32:36] Christina: Yeah, nothing even comes close. Like, it is, it’s literally the FFmpeg for images. Like, if you’ve wanted to use something, you know, similar to FFmpeg, uh, but dealing with images, like ImageMagick, and the, um, the maintainer of it is, is really great. And, um, you know, the stuff that’s added, like, like Brett was saying, you have to look up every single thing you do. [01:32:57] Christina: It is insane. [01:32:58] Brett: There is, [01:33:00] there is room, there is space in the app community for a graphic interface to ImageMagick. Like, someone who could do something like what RetroBatch, have you guys ever seen RetroBatch? [01:33:15] Jay 2: I was going to bring up RetroBatch? [01:33:17] Brett: Like, it can do so much stuff, but if it could do what ImageMagick does, if it could provide a graphical user interface, a GUI, if you will, to Retro, uh, to ImageMagick, it would, it would be an amazing tool. [01:33:35] Christina: No, I totally agree. Um, uh, we’ve talked about, it’s been a previous Graftitude pick of mine is, um, uh, FFworks, uh, which is an FFmpeg front end, which is really, really good. Uh, I, I would wish that somebody could do that or, you know, if, if Gus wants to, you know, expand, um, you know, um, a retro batch to, to taking on more of the, uh, uh, image magic stuff, uh, that would be greatly appreciated [01:34:00] too. [01:34:00] Jay 2: I wonder if there’s like a, uh, just a simple endpoint that you could add similar to like what Brett does half the time. We’re like, Hey, if you want to just do some scripting type thing, just paste this code in, like Keyboard Maestro does this, Bunch does this, Alfred does this. Like. Yeah. [01:34:16] Jay 2: RetroBatch, just give me access to the CLI for ImageMagick, and then like, now you can do everything else, which I’ve been using, I’ve been using Pillow because it’s a part of like the whole Python image library stuff to do automated, what are those things called? [01:34:31] Jay 2: The meta tag cards. [01:34:32] Christina: Yes, [01:34:33] Brett: Open Graph. [01:34:34] Jay 2: Yeah, I would love to switch that out to use ImageMagick because, like, right now, it’s, it’s so janky. Like, anytime you have to add text to something, I’m just like, I, I give up. [01:34:50] Christina: no, totally. And now would actually be a great time for somebody to do a GUI tool because to your point about the Open Graph things, you know, Twitter got rid of the fact, well, headlines on [01:35:00] links. And so what I think that people need to do now is you need to do an overlay of what your headline is on top of your image. [01:35:08] Christina: And that’s something that you could completely automate with ImageMagick. So if somebody made like a good GUI tool, you know, to kind of take on that feature. You could sell shitloads of copies to basically anybody who publishes anything on Twitter, whether they want to or not, because now, [01:35:24] Brett: take, if you take the sample code for an image magic command overlay text, it’s going to, it’s going to work, but it’s going to look like shit. And it takes, it takes some knowledge and finesse to actually make it look good. And a GUI could totally make that customizable and easy without constantly tweaking drop shadows and kerning. [01:35:48] Brett: And yeah. [01:35:49] Christina: and, and yeah, and the thing is, is that people who are publishing a lot of times these things are never going to do that anyway, and so if you were able to do that, you could Yes, absolutely! You know, like, [01:36:00] look, I don’t want somebody to just do it for, you know, publishing to Twitter, but it you if you, um, you know, even, or, or publishing to open graph stuff. [01:36:07] Christina: But like, if, if you made a, a good gooey tool, you could have like a quick like part of it that would let you do just that and you could again, like sell so many copies because that’s a, that’s a thing that people a need to do already, and b, increasingly. Um, I’m, I’m waiting, like I’m shocked that the New York Times and people haven’t already built this into their CMSs, to be honest, because they have the resources to do so, you know, having a way to like, overlay the text on those images so that, yeah, when people now look at these things on Twitter, they can actually know what the fuck they’re clicking on. [01:36:38] Christina: I [01:36:40] Brett: All right. I feel like that wraps up a 90 minute episode [01:36:43] Christina: think so. [01:36:45] Brett: Alright. Jay, thanks for being here. Appreciate it. [01:36:48] Jay 2: Anytime. [01:36:50] Brett: Alright. you, guys, get some sleep. [01:36:53] Christina: get some sleep. [01:36:54] Jay 2: Get some sleep. [01:37:00]

A little dive into Guardians of the Galaxy and Brett’s history with raccoons. The group does mental health, Grapptitude… and ‘Grapptibitching.’ Sponsor Show Links Charles Edge TRS-80 Journal CLI No Name Bar The Spotify playlist for No Name, Sept 28, 2023 The mentioned Rocket Raccoon podcast is no longer available due to copyright claim Rocket was the real protaganist Giveaways on BrettTerpstra.com Interlink https://interlinkhq.com/ Spillo Pins Deckset IA Presenter Noteplan Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Rocket Was Always the Protaganist [00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:03] Brett: Welcome back, Overtired listeners, it has been a minute. Um, [00:00:08] Jeff: I’m Sam Sanders. Sorry. [00:00:11] Brett: we, we have been, we have been on a little bit of a break, but I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Jeff Severins Gunsel and Christina Warren. How you guys doing? How you holding up? [00:00:22] Jeff: I wish I was Sam Sanders and I wish he was still hosting. It’s been a minute because he’s phenomenal. It’s still a great show. Sorry. I’m good. Hi, Christina. Hi. [00:00:30] Christina: Hi, I’ve missed you guys. [00:00:32] Brett: Yeah, how long’s it been? We, we took a couple weeks off. I think two, maybe three. Um, we had a lot of, there was a lot of travel, a lot of end of summer stuff going on. And, uh, and we, and we have zero sponsors for the foreseeable future. So if we need a week off, we’re taking a week off. And, uh, [00:00:53] Jeff: Does anybody have like a, like an AA sponsor they could bring on? I’m [00:00:56] Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, or, or, hey, but, but genuinely, if you have, um, a, [00:01:00] uh, you know, a product service app that you would like to get out to an audience of, uh, you know, um, nerds and, uh, and whatnot, uh, hit us up and, um, sponsor, sponsor the pod. [00:01:11] Brett: for sure. I, um, it’s, it’s kind of nice not being beholden to anybody. [00:01:17] Christina: Oh, totally. I’m just saying. [00:01:19] Brett: But yeah, I mean, and I know from experience that people will forgive this show for disappearing for like up to a year at a time, and they keep, and they stick around, they keep coming back. We had a couple years of very sporadic podcasts, and when we started back up, our downloads were about the same as they were when we left off. [00:01:44] Brett: To be fair, In the past, when we were on 5×5, our show got 30, 000 downloads a week, which is very respectable. These days, I’m not going to throw out numbers, but it is far less than that. [00:02:00] Um, it is, it is a fraction of [00:02:03] Jeff: select group of people that we allow to listen to this [00:02:05] Brett: But we have very loyal listeners who, who know us and, and if they met us on the street, they would all be very kind. [00:02:13] Jeff: I love you, Danny Glamour. [00:02:15] Mental Health Corner [00:02:15] Brett: We all love Danny Glamour. Um, uh, so anyway, we should kick off a mental health corner, find out where everybody’s at. Uh, Jeff, how you doing? [00:02:26] Jeff: I am doing pretty good. Um, I, I am doing pretty good. I have, uh, yeah, I’m doing good. I, I said that six times now, which probably means I’m not doing good. No, I think I am. Um, I, uh, I’m, I’m in the midst of, uh, preparing for a, um, Pretty whack a doodle, uh, uh, yard sale of tools. Um, that is, uh, the tools I will be selling cover a bizarre range of things from the industrial to the eccentric and, uh, [00:03:00] and much of what’s there is the result of a, what I, what I, you know, now understand was a, a manic episode. [00:03:07] Jeff: Two and a half years ago, a month long, I’ve never had anything like it. I’ve, I’m diagnosed with bipolar, um, but I, and, [00:03:16] Brett: Type one. I [00:03:17] Jeff: and type, yeah, whatever the one where people go, oh, bummer. Um, and, uh, And, and I’ve, and I now understand what manic episodes have looked like in my life and they never looked like this. And I was obsessed with this idea that I was burned out in my work. [00:03:35] Jeff: And I loved working in my workshop. I have a kind of extensive workshop. I like doing metal work. I like just like doing random commissions. I like, uh, fixing old, old things. Um, and, and I decided that’s, I’m going to figure out how to make a life. Out of this, and it’s going to be funded by flipping, uh, by flipping old tools that I, that I restore using my great judgment, which of course, when you’re manic, your judgment is incredible. [00:03:59] Jeff: [00:04:00] Um, and so I started going to, I started bidding in auctions for about a month. Closed, like steel factories that were closing down and like, uh, this old man in Spooner, Wisconsin had died, Charlie, and he was basically they were like auctioning off his entire shop and I bought a bunch of like, valuable vintage tools for nothing and, and bought way too much of them and, and almost, almost destroyed my van trying to drive it home. [00:04:27] Jeff: Um, and so anyway, I, I thought it was the best month of my life until I realized it was probably the worst. And I brought home so much stuff in that month and, and spent so much money. Um, and it really kind of brought my whole life, uh, to a grinding. Halt, I guess. Um, as I sort of lost that energy and realized what had happened and it was difficult in my home, in my relationship, it was difficult for me because the workshop I loved, that I was already struggling to keep clean now, was basically, [00:05:00] you couldn’t navigate it. [00:05:01] Jeff: And I, and because that led to my diagnosis and, and that led to a long period of trying to find the right medications, which led to gaining a bunch of weight, which led to getting diabetes, which led to getting diabetes meds that caused me to lose a bunch of weight, like, uh, not to mention, you know, different the way different drugs impact you and how long it takes you to realize it. [00:05:21] Jeff: And then how painful it is when you stop, you know, like it was a two year process that ended not that long ago, maybe like six months ago. And I feel great now and I feel really even and I, and that’s just wonderful. But, um, I had to let all that stuff just stay in this terrible condition. I had to just, I essentially made it a time capsule. [00:05:38] Jeff: And, um, and, and recently through just a lot of hard work and therapy, I was able to kind of face it cause like one of the things that I learned about having a really destructive manic episode is like. It’s really painful to feel like you can’t trust yourself, because I, I’ve always felt like I can trust myself, trust my gut, and I have, I think, been able to do that, and it’s served me well, [00:06:00] um, but my judgment in that period was so fucking off, and, um, and it was, it was exaggerated parts of real me, right? [00:06:09] Jeff: Like, it wasn’t like, oh, I’m not me, it was like, no, I’m definitely me, and, and all of the, the, the dials, and I’m not going to see up to 11, it’s overused in our culture, but all the dials are just, all the faders are up, [00:06:21] Brett: then some. [00:06:21] Jeff: Yeah, I was fucking Jeff, right? Like, um, and, uh, and so anyway, it’s, it’s this beautiful thing. [00:06:29] Jeff: Cause I, I finally realized, okay, I think I can go in. I think I can sort through this stuff. I think I can make sort of a really fun sale. And the concept of the sale. Is it’s, um, I’m, I’m liquidating my Uncle Ray’s, uh, uh, workshop and collection. My Uncle Ray was a little bit of a hoarder. Uh, he, he passed recently. [00:06:49] Jeff: Um, he was an eccentric. He’s a wonderful guy. Uh, and I, I really love him. And he asked me in his last dying wish was just make sure my stuff goes to a good home. And if it can’t [00:07:00] take it to the dump, um, and, and I, I created that idea, which I may not even go with because I loved the possibility. Let me tell you, when I have this sale, it’s going to draw in some weirdos. [00:07:10] Jeff: And, um, and, and so I didn’t want to have to argue with people about whether something works or the value of something I wanted to be like, look, man, I can’t tell you if that thing’s working. It was Uncle Ray’s and I can’t tell him. I wouldn’t lie. I wouldn’t say something works when it doesn’t. I literally sometimes don’t know if it works, right? [00:07:27] Jeff: Like the cables cut or something, but it’s like a really valuable thing with a cable cut, whatever. Maybe. So the leftover manic part of me still thinks probably. Um, but I, [00:07:38] Brett: how are you advertising this? [00:07:40] Jeff: Well, I only decided today I’m finally going to do it next week. My, my wife was like, here’s the deal. Have the sale you can have. [00:07:48] Jeff: Because I was like, there’s going to be a popcorn machine. There’s going to be, you know what I mean? Like, [00:07:54] Christina: You’re like, this is gonna be a sale. This is gonna be like a good old batch of like, rummage [00:07:58] Brett: This [00:07:58] Jeff: We’re gonna have, we’re gonna have [00:08:00] balloons, uh, you know, and, and Laurel at one point was like, you know, I, I see you, I love this Uncle Ray thing, I think it’s great, I think it’s a great way to kind of have fun and probably part of healing from this thing and having a little distance from it so you don’t have to answer the question of why do you have all this stuff, dude, right? [00:08:16] Jeff: But she’s like, I see you possibly spending too much time on the backstory of Uncle Ray. And I was like, fair enough, fair enough. And then the other thing she said that was so helpful was exactly that, like, just have this lady you can have, have it next weekend. So until the moment we started recording or met up here, I’ve been prepping for this yard sale, which is about so much more than selling tools. [00:08:39] Brett: Wow. [00:08:40] Jeff: Yeah. [00:08:42] Brett: Yard sale as mental health coroner. I [00:08:44] Jeff: Yeah. We’ll see. I don’t like, I do not like, uh, having garage sales. I don’t want, I look at people that come and look at my shit and I’m like, what the fuck are you doing looking at my shit? Even though I put it out there, you know, it’s [00:08:54] Brett: don’t deserve [00:08:55] Jeff: You don’t deserve this. Yeah, you don’t know what to do with this. [00:08:57] Jeff: Uh, so, we’ll see if I can [00:09:00] pull it off. That’s why it’s good that it’s Uncle Ray. I’m thinking of having a picture of Uncle Ray with like a born and death date. And then, and the last bit is, anybody who, who says, who is, are you Uncle Ray? They get a 20 percent discount. If they figure it out, they get a discount. [00:09:14] Jeff: So, I’m not trying to just straight up lie to [00:09:16] Brett: uh, [00:09:17] Jeff: Um, that’s my story. That’s my check in. [00:09:21] Brett: I went to a garage sale once when I was maybe 16, and… There was an Oscar, like the computer, the, like, briefcase computer, the Oscar, um, and they were real cagey when you first started asking questions about it because clearly they wanted it to go to a good home. I believe the magic words were when I asked, is that a 300 Baud modem? [00:09:51] Brett: And… And they were like, okay, this guy, this guy might want this. Um, maybe it wasn’t even the Oscar. Maybe like I bought [00:10:00] that summer, I bought an Oscar and I bought an AT& T Unix machine, one of their first [00:10:05] Jeff: Damn. [00:10:06] Brett: AT& T machines. And that was the one that had a 300 bud coupler modem that like came out the side and you. [00:10:12] Brett: You put the phone receiver into it and, and like, and then it was like a 300 baud connection to your gopher servers or whatever. [00:10:21] Christina: right, right. [00:10:22] Brett: Um, I learned Unix on that AT& T machine. That is where I learned most of my Unix skills. Um, but anyway, I, I feel like the idea that people who have garage sales really do want their shit to go to people who will cherish it. [00:10:42] Brett: Oh, nice. [00:10:43] Jeff: TRS 80, the Trash [00:10:46] Brett: Trash [00:10:46] Jeff: I just pulled out my Mint Condition Trash 80, which I’ll talk about after this. I just want to say a little bit about vintage computing when we’re done with our check ins. [00:10:54] Brett: 80. Jeff is currently holding up a Trash 80. [00:10:57] Jeff: A portable Trash 80. [00:10:59] Christina: I have to be [00:11:00] honest with you guys, um, I’d always like, heard like, what a trash AD is or whatever, but like, I didn’t know what it looked like until maybe, I don’t know, like a year or two ago, and then I was like, oh, damn. That’s [00:11:10] Brett: had [00:11:11] Christina: Cause, no, no, no, did, did all of them have, um, integrated screens or were, or was that only some of [00:11:15] Brett: Like, one line screen. [00:11:17] Christina: Yeah. [00:11:18] Jeff: this one’s like a, I think a five line [00:11:20] Christina: Yeah, yeah, [00:11:21] Jeff: Yeah, [00:11:21] Christina: did they all have [00:11:22] Jeff: there was like a desktop [00:11:23] Christina: Okay. Okay. See, this is why I was confused because in my mind I’d always anticipate, I’d always thought that it was like a, a desktop thing, right? And, and normal desktop computer, you know, home computer thing. But then I saw it with the screen and I was like, oh shit, if I’d known that it looked like that, like I would have been way more into it. [00:11:38] Christina: So I think, I think that’s what it was. [00:11:39] Jeff: since we’re in it, I’ll just give you the quick story of this thing. So I had posted a photo that my sons volunteer at a place here called Free Geek and, and part of Free Geek is just taking apart electronics so they can recycle them. The other part is a electronics thrift store. Um, and, and so last week actually, I saw a Commodore 64 executive, which is like, you [00:12:00] pick it up with a big handle and it’s got a little integrated screen and the keyboard comes out and they had one of the old Heath kit computers there. [00:12:07] Jeff: Anyway. So we had picked up a, uh, an old like 90s PC pre Pentium and the boys run Doom on it and play Doom on it. And I put a picture of that on Facebook and, and Eric Ringham, who’s, I knew when I worked at Minnesota Public Radio, greatest voice in radio, um, had worked for the Star Tribune, which is our local Minneapolis paper. [00:12:26] Jeff: And he messaged me and he’s like, Hey, I have a TRS 80 if you want it. And I was like, yes, I want it. And I went over to his house the next day. It’s in mint condition. It still works. And it had the Star Tribune’s, um, instructions for use, which called it instructions for using the Trash 80 is what it said. [00:12:42] Jeff: And it actually was, he took it to China and he used it as a foreign correspondent, but because he could never figure out how to use the modem, um, he, he still had to call his editor and read the copy that he, that he typed on this. And sadly he had programmed Space Invaders into it, but it’s still, it doesn’t exist there [00:13:00] anymore. [00:13:00] Jeff: So anyway, that’s how I ended up with the Trash 80. Um, it’s beautiful. [00:13:03] Brett: Do you guys know who Charles Edge is? [00:13:06] Jeff: Oh, name only. [00:13:07] Brett: Um, I met him a while back and he is, he contributes to like Huffington Post and he writes books. Um, but he is basically, aside from being a computer scientist, he’s a historian of computing. And that guy, you give him like a model number and he can tell you like the history and the capabilities of just about any… [00:13:33] Brett: Historical machine. He’s very interested. He’s also very good looking. Straight, straight, but very good [00:13:39] Jeff: You know, I, just a thing about Huffington Post, cause it’s been the case for many, many years, maybe nigh on decades, that saying you write for Huffington Post is the same as saying you write for Myspace. It’s like, it’s not, it’s not a thing that was like, we’re picking you anymore, but that’s all right. [00:13:53] Jeff: That’s all right. [00:13:54] Brett: Yeah. Um, let’s see. He also writes for ink. [00:14:00] com. That counts for something, right? [00:14:01] Jeff: Sure. Is that a tattoo rag or? Uh huh. [00:14:05] Brett: All right. Christina, how’s your mental health? [00:14:08] Christina: My mental health is good. Um, I think that the new antidepressant is working. So yay. Um, applause everyone. Um, so that’s really, really good. So I actually spent, like last week, this week has been fine. I’ve been just doing work stuff. Um, work is starting to get hectic, but last week I actually had like a, a week of like concerts that. [00:14:27] Christina: The concerts were great, but it was also one of those things where, like, I’m reaching the age where I go to see concerts and, like, I look at the crowd and I see how old the crowd is and it, like, makes me uncomfortable with my own mortality. So I went and, so the first thing, so my friend Erin and I basically did, like, a week of concerts. [00:14:42] Christina: So she lives in Raleigh. We work together. She’s my GitHub work wife. Um, I, I usually get married to at least one person, um, per job, but she’s my GitHub work wife. And, um… She was, she was in Seattle visiting some friends that she has. Yeah, I think that’s you. And, [00:15:00] uh, so we went to see, cause we, we have similar taste in music. [00:15:03] Christina: And so we went to see at a winery and I’d never been to this winery before. I’d never been to this part of, um, Washington before, Woodinville. And I’ve been wanting to go there. We saw Dashboard Confessional, who I’ve seen many, many times and we’ve talked about on this pod. And I saw Counting Crows. And Counting Crows is one of my favorite bands ever. [00:15:20] Christina: And they’re actually one of the best bands, amazing band. And live, they are phenomenal. Um, Erin had never seen them live. And I told her, I was like, no, like they’re one of the best bands you will ever see live. And she was like, it’s kind of skeptical. And then afterwards she was like. Holy shit, you’re right. [00:15:36] Christina: I was like, yeah, I know. Um, they, uh, they were amazing. They did this right after the, uh, Prepare to Feel Really Awful, the 30th anniversary of August and Everything After. [00:15:46] Jeff: Oh, dude, everything’s the 30th anniversary for me, and we’re getting up on 40th with some of these [00:15:50] Christina: But, but, no, but, no, but that would like mindfucked me and, uh, but they, they, they were amazing. They did a lot of great songs. They opened with my favorite Counting Crows song, which I was not [00:16:00] expecting. And so that was kind of like a whole thing. And, um, they cover Taylor Swift actually, like on their, on their set list, which like was to me, like they covered the one from, um, Folklore, which I, I was not expecting at all. [00:16:13] Christina: And I was like, okay, my two worlds are colliding here and, and, and I don’t know how I feel about this, but I love it. Um, but then so, so we did that on, on Saturday and then on Sunday we flew to Raleigh and I stayed with her. She was gracious enough to host me and we saw Ben Folds on Wednesday in Raleigh. [00:16:30] Christina: Um, he’s doing, um, solo piano shows, um, across the U. S. because he just released a new album and I love Ben Folds. Love, love, love him. But he’s from South Carolina. And we, um, uh, basically that was like the, the hometown show. Like we, we paid to do the meet and greet. We did not pay for the photo op because I’m not going to pay 75 for a photo. [00:16:50] Christina: I already have photos of me in binfolds. I’m not going to, to do that. But I did pay 75 for the meet and greet, which had an AMA part, which was great, which was lovely. And like his [00:17:00] One of his original music teachers was there from like elementary school, as well as like a guy that he went to high school with. [00:17:05] Christina: Like it, so it was, it was pretty cool, like just in the, in the audience. So that was pretty cool. And, um, and he was great. And then we, so, so we, our whole thing is, so we were like, okay, we’re going to go see him in Raleigh. And then we got on a plane at 5 AM on Thursday morning and flew to DC to see him at the Kennedy Center. [00:17:26] Christina: And, and so I spent the weekend in [00:17:28] Jeff: Damn, that’s quite a week. [00:17:30] Christina: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was, it was really, really fun. And, you know, this is the sort of shit that I usually do, like, when I’m feeling like me, like, I will totally just be the sort of person who’s like, yeah, one of my favorite bands is playing two shows, and they’re a city apart. get on an airplane and do it. Like, I do that shit, right? But I haven’t done that in a But I haven’t done that in a really long time, and I planned this when I wasn’t feeling [00:18:00] good, but I’m so glad I was feeling good when [00:18:04] Jeff: That’s amazing. [00:18:05] Christina: I did it. And then we went to a Nationals game, saw the Braves. The Braves beat the Nats, go Braves. [00:18:12] Christina: Um, I just had a really nice weekend in Washington, D. C. with my friend, and I just, I was like, I don’t know, it like, hit me. I was like, I feel like myself. Like I’m gonna cry because I felt like myself for the first time in a long time. [00:18:26] Brett: you planned this when you weren’t feeling like yourself, did, were you? Yeah, exactly, were you, did you plan it in the hopes that you were gonna feel like yourself in time? [00:18:36] Christina: I think so. And, and, and if not, then it was one of those things where I was like, well, I’ll just, I’ll do it right. Like I can just, this couldn’t just be one of those things that I just kind of like, you know, suck up and do. Right, right. But, but it, but it wouldn’t have been the same thing because live music, um, invigorates me and, and sustains me in a way. Basically, like nothing else. That’s why I always go on like my concert adventures, like [00:19:00] people, you know, some people, people spend their money on different things. I don’t judge, um, and, and so I know people look at me sometimes and they think it’s weird, you know, um, that I’ll, I’ll fly to different cities, um, frequently, you know, to, to see concerts, but, um, live music really does, um, um, Invigorate me. [00:19:17] Christina: And, but this, yeah, you know, I, I planned this before I was feeling good and, and I, I, I guess I, there was a hope in the back of my mind that I’d be feeling good, but I, I didn’t, I didn’t appreciate how much better it was to feel good and do that, you know, and, and, and also to just, you know, be with my friend and, um, you know, uh, like, and you never know, that’s the thing too. [00:19:39] Christina: You never know when you first I guess like travel with someone and you’re with them for like a long period of time like is this going to work out like are we the types of friends who can travel together or not? And, and Aaron and I definitely are which is great. Um, I found that out earlier this, this year too with my friends Catherine and, and, um, Alex when we went to Disney World together. [00:19:57] Christina: But like, you know, we, we, Yeah, [00:20:00] and like, we had like, you know, we were adults at Disney, not adult Disney fans, to be [00:20:05] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That’s an important distinction, I [00:20:07] Christina: is an important distinction, but like, when we did that, like, you know, but that’s always a nice thing too, because you never know, um, especially like, when we are adults, like when you travel with people, it’s not like when you’re in college and you can just kind of like… [00:20:18] Christina: Go along with it. You know, if somebody’s lame and you’re like, okay, it’s whatever, like it sucks if you’re spending like seven days with someone who you don’t really like that [00:20:27] Jeff: god. No, that’s not something to do. [00:20:30] Christina: No, no, no. So we, so Erin and I travel well together and, and which was fantastic for both of us to learn, which was great. So, um, yeah, so that was, that’s, that’s my update. [00:20:39] Christina: Um, I’m feeling a lot better. I’m feeling like myself again for the first time in a really long time. So yay. [00:20:45] Jeff: Congratulations. [00:20:47] Christina: Thank you. [00:20:47] Jeff: I love it so much. That’s amazing. Uh, yeah. Brett, I know you got some business to tend to. [00:20:55] Christina: The raccoons. I’ve been promised raccoons. [00:20:58] Brett: yeah, I think, honestly, I [00:21:00] think I wanna make the raccoons a section after Mental Health Corner. We’re gonna, we’re gonna get [00:21:05] Jeff: might be my favorite sentence, uh, in, in the history of this podcast. [00:21:10] Christina: of it all. [00:21:11] Brett: As far as mental health goes, um, things are actually pretty good. I had a brief manic episode a couple weeks ago, uh, for the first time. It was right after I told you guys that I hadn’t had a manic episode for like six months. It [00:21:24] Jeff: Someone’s listening to the podcast! Heh [00:21:26] Brett: Literally the next day, literally the next day, I realized that I was manic again, but it only lasted about two and a half days and then it ended. [00:21:36] Brett: The depression was mild and I have been stable ever since then. Um, in the interest of collecting data about this kind of thing, I can’t remember if I had this out last time we talked or not, but I, I wrote a, a command line tool called Journal. [00:21:54] Christina: yeah, we didn’t talk about it, but I’ve been following your blog and I’ve been obsessed with it. [00:21:57] Brett: And you can, [00:22:00] using a YAML config file, you can, you can add questions, um, [00:22:05] Christina: I love you so [00:22:06] Jeff: I’m not following you enough! [00:22:07] Brett: to ask yourself, and you can give yourself, like, numeric ratings on a question, you can give yourself text input, um, you can ask yourself, or you can add, like, weather data, and I just today added moon phase, Data that you can collect. [00:22:25] Brett: So go ahead. [00:22:27] Jeff: Pause. So I normally keep up with what you’re doing. I used to look at your, your site every day because I wanted to see what new fucking bananas thing you were working on, but I only just logged on having, having learned just now about journal and I already know how deep in you are because your most current post is historical weather for journal CLI. [00:22:44] Jeff: It’s like, Oh fuck, I missed a lot. [00:22:46] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Because like one of the features is if you miss a day. So like the idea was it stores your info in a JSON structured data file that you can then [00:23:00] use for analysis and querying. That was the important part to me, but it can also store markdown journal entries and it can. Add to day one. So however you want to journal, but to me, the important part was I needed, I was scoring my, our couple’s therapist asked us to rate our own kind of bandwidth and our partner’s bandwidth, uh, daily on a scale of one to five. [00:23:27] Brett: And I started doing that in day one and then realized I had no way to query or output. These specific numbers, and I couldn’t correlate them to any other factors, so I wrote journal just to allow me to keep this JSON file of all of these numbers and all kinds of other peripheral data that might affect them so I could draw correlations later. [00:23:53] Brett: So that’s the primary function of journal. Um, it is already led to some [00:24:00] enlightening. Uh, Discoveries. I am interested to see how Moonphase… affects some of these scores because I’m not into astrology. I don’t, uh, at all, at all, not even a little, [00:24:13] Christina: completely fake. [00:24:15] Brett: I have noticed that on full moons and the two days surrounding full moons, I don’t sleep as well. [00:24:22] Brett: And I don’t know if that’s just extra light in the room or what, but [00:24:26] Christina: the thing. I think that there’s Okay, I’m gonna like be a hypocrite here. I think that like, astrology, like the co You know, like, like horoscope, all that stuff is complete Bunking [00:24:35] Brett: total bullshit. [00:24:36] Christina: complete bullshit. There’s nothing. I mean, that, that, that is, that is fantasy on a level that like, I’m not like, like religion. [00:24:42] Christina: I, I can sort of, I can understand the appeal behind it. I can’t even understand the appeal behind this because it’s literally made up nonsense. Right. But I think that when it comes to like the stuff that can happen with moons and the tides, I do think that can, that can affect how you [00:24:57] Brett: because it’s, it’s legit [00:25:00] gravitational changes. [00:25:01] Christina: Yeah. [00:25:01] Christina: Like, like, [00:25:01] Brett: could, that could affect, I don’t know, things like mood and sleep, and so, so I’m tracking this, and now I’m collecting this data as well, um, and I’ve been slowly writing, like, Journal itself, the CLI doesn’t offer any query tools, um, like basically you, you get a JSON file that you can um, parse and work in whatever language you like and do whatever you want with. [00:25:28] Brett: Uh, so I, I write scripts in Ruby that output different correlations and I’d be really curious. It also, I found out there’s like this data view plugin for Obsidian that [00:25:41] Jeff: that’s a great plug in. [00:25:43] Brett: it could use YAML. Headers in your journal entries and output different, like, different ways to view your data. So, Journal now, when it outputs a markdown entry, which you can point to your, your [00:26:00] Obsidian vault, um, it includes all of your numeric and weather data as YAML headers that you can then use, uh, Obsidian data view to, to map and… [00:26:15] Jeff: Because we’re still in Mental Health Corner, I need you to stop saying Obsidian because I’ve had to bar myself from using it because I, um, become so obsessive in using it that I, I lose all of [00:26:24] Brett: Yeah, I feel like that’s a major pitfall to Obsidian. I, I honestly, like, I test it once in a while, and I see, I see all the potential. It is. It really [00:26:36] Jeff: awesome! I still read the changelogs. [00:26:38] Brett: I remember [00:26:39] Christina: is, and I use it, but like I have the same problem where like I could literally lose 12 hours and, and I’m, I’m not actually even being like Christina hyperbolic. I’m being completely serious. I could lose 12 hours of my life to configuring and dealing with all the little things that I would want. [00:26:54] Christina: And maybe that would be a good use of 12 hours. I who, who’s to say, but, but, but I could, I can [00:27:00] totally like get sucked down those rabbit holes. I completely understand. [00:27:02] Brett: I talked to, I talked to a developer from Obsidian early on, I think maybe even before their first public release. And he, he said to me, I don’t see this as competition for NB Ultra. Um, however, it 100 percent is [00:27:19] Christina: Oh, but absolutely. [00:27:20] Brett: it is, and it does so much more than NB Ultra even aspires [00:27:24] Christina: Which I think is a good thing. I think that’s the one area where it’s not competition, right? Like, it absolutely is. And for some people, I think it will replace exactly what they would use in VUltra for. But in another sense, I think this is, it’s almost a good thing for you, where you’re like, okay, if you need to go beyond, I don’t have to build that. [00:27:41] Brett: And here’s the thing is both apps work with a folder full of markdown files. So you can access your Obsidian data in NVUltra and you can use NVUltra for quick entry into Obsidian. So there is, there’s some [00:27:57] Christina: path for [00:27:57] Brett: synergy. Can we say [00:28:00] synergy? [00:28:00] Christina: no, definitely, right? And look, I think that they definitely, and I think they even admitted it, like, took, you know, things from Indie Alt, right? Was, was definitely inspiration for it. Um, but I think that in one case, cause we’ve talked about the, this before, but yeah, they were like, Oh, we don’t see it as competition. [00:28:15] Christina: It’s absolutely competition. But, I think they serve different purposes, and for you specifically, Brett, like, I think that it’s actually good that there’s this app that in many ways could go down all the Brett rabbit holes, but you’re not the one building it, and you don’t have to be in charge of it, because you can just make your app your app. [00:28:33] Jeff: You guys, stop. I opened Obsidian. It’s not good. It’s not [00:28:36] Brett: is, there is so much that if I could convince, Fletcher, my partner on NVUltra is very, like, you have to absolutely convince him with data that a feature is worth adding before he will consider adding it to NVUltra. [00:28:54] Jeff: in beta? [00:28:56] Brett: It is, it is, it [00:28:57] Jeff: I’m saying that knowing that this is not on [00:29:00] you. I would never say that if it was strictly your situation. [00:29:03] Brett: So like, there are all these things that Obsidian does that I’m like, Oh my God, we should totally figure out like an even better way to do this thing. And it’ll just be a no go with Fletcher because I can’t. I’m not a logical person. Like I can’t, I can’t debate. I can’t debate. If, if a debate is all about like logic and data, I’m kind of lost. [00:29:29] Brett: Like I get screwed over when the conversation becomes overly technical, uh, in any kind of debate. Uh, I have, I have [00:29:38] Jeff: You’re a doer. [00:29:40] Brett: but I have an ADHD brain that doesn’t retain a lot of facts and, and data points that I can use to prove my argument. So I get. I get, uh, bulldozed very easily when I’m dealing with someone who is very logical. [00:29:56] Brett: But, anyway, um, so [00:30:00] journal aside, mild manic episode aside, I also DJ’d at [00:30:06] Jeff: I was gonna ask you about that. [00:30:08] Brett: At Ed’s No Name Bar. It’s no longer called Ed’s because Ed sold it. But back in the day, this guy named Ed Hoffman, uh, wanted to open, and originally it was supposed to be a wine bar. He was going to open a high class wine bar, but he gave up on that and opened A dive bar, but dive bar in like, in a hipster way, like a very, like a hipster bar with like the Christmas lights around the, the, the liquor selection and everything. [00:30:38] Brett: And, [00:30:39] Christina: bar parenthesis aesthetic. [00:30:41] Brett: and, and he didn’t, he didn’t come up with a name. So it just became known as Ed’s No Name Bar. Um, he sold it. Now it’s literally. registered as no name bar. Um, and I had a friend bartending there and I tweeted, I tweeted, uh, Spotify had given me this [00:31:00] list of recommended songs and I’m like, holy shit, I want to, I want to DJ this for a crowd, um, for anybody who would listen. [00:31:09] Brett: And so I tweeted that and, and Christian was like, Hey, uh, Ed’s on Thursday. Four to four to eight. So I showed up with my iPhone and my playlist ready to go. Nobody there. And nobody was there for the first three hours of my set. Um, but it was still a blast to sit. at the dive bar and talk to Christian and listen to fucking old school punk rock for three hours and then people finally started showing up but it was at the point I got to about two hours into the playlist and I decided to mix in something other than classic punk uh and it went to like Sage Francis, and Fugazi, and Mudhoney, and K [00:32:00] Flay, and it kind of like, it became a more diverse playlist at that point, and that’s when everyone started showing up. [00:32:06] Brett: So people missed out, like, the first six songs on the playlist are Rise Above by Black Flag, California Uberalis by the Dead Kennedys, Fuck Shit Up by Blatz, Ever Fallen in Love by the Buzzcocks, I Love Living in the City by Fear. [00:32:20] Jeff: love living in the city! [00:32:22] Brett: Yeah, and Living in Exile by Blood for Blood, and then it just goes on with that kind of theme from there, but it was so much fun just to, just to be in a bar, even though there was nobody there. [00:32:36] Brett: Uh, just to be in a bar, listening to it, yeah, exactly! It reminded me so much of the bars [00:32:43] Jeff: want to play dice in the corner? I, [00:32:45] Brett: We’d hang out in bars in New York City, like in, in Queens, and we’d be in this like just shitty bar, almost nobody there, and they would have a jukebox, and we would play whatever Runaways, whatever Joan Jett, whatever [00:33:00] N. [00:33:00] Brett: W. A. they had, and we would just kind of run the sound system for an almost empty bar, and it did remind me of being on tour. Yeah, [00:33:11] Jeff: like practice, but we’re in Pittsburgh. [00:33:13] Rocket the Raccoon [00:33:13] Brett: you guys want to talk about Raccoons? [00:33:15] Christina: Yes, let’s talk about raccoons. [00:33:17] Brett: Okay. [00:33:17] Jeff: wait. Can I ask a journal question really quick? Um, first of all, this reminds me of, um, Simon. What’s his last name? I’ve talked about it before, but his, um, dataset, uh, [00:33:29] Christina: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Willison, Willison. [00:33:31] Jeff: Yeah, and his, like, personal, uh, lifelogging, uh, sort of attachment, yeah, [00:33:36] Christina: Simon Willison. Yeah, he’s the best. Yeah, [00:33:38] Jeff: it has that spirit, but I wanted to ask, like, so, you’re building this stuff in, I assume there’s at least six or seven more things that’ll be built in in the next month, and by the way, without a manic phase, nice work. [00:33:48] Jeff: Um, and that’s, that’s amazing. I just wanted to point that out. Uh, but is it, is there a way to just like say, I want to hook this API to journal as a user, uh, and, and, [00:34:00] and, and there’s like a pathway to that. Can that be a thing? [00:34:03] Brett: No, but that, it can be a thing. [00:34:05] Jeff: Yeah, that’s what I mean. Can it [00:34:06] Brett: good idea. [00:34:07] Jeff: Yeah. Because I love that thing of like, you’re, you’re identifying all these things that you wonder maybe impact your mental health and, and I can imagine then my brain racing off and being like, I’m going to go grab a, uh, baseball scores. [00:34:20] Jeff: Um, I do not watch baseball, but that’s [00:34:23] Brett: define a key and a question type. And a question type right now can be numeric, it can be an integer or a float, it can be, uh, text, it can be multi line text, it can be weather. Like, you have all these different types. And I could easily Have a type that was API and either through a plugin architecture or just if there was like a URL you could query and, and bring in like JSON or any kind of structured data, then yeah, I could add that. Yeah, [00:34:56] Jeff: I’ve noticed I’m always a little off when the International Space [00:35:00] Station passes over. [00:35:01] Brett: there’s [00:35:01] Jeff: A, that’s an [00:35:03] Brett: There’s only maybe 200 people using Journal [00:35:06] Jeff: 201 after this podcast [00:35:08] Brett: or 200 who have tried it. I don’t know how many kept using it, um, but I have yet to receive any major feature requests, just some bug reports, um, so I will consider that a valid feature request, consider it on the docket. Okay, so when I was, when I was in my 20s, um, My ex wife and I were driving along a road and we saw a baby raccoon and We pulled over because it looked lost and we had just seen a dead raccoon in the road a little bit before, so the safe assumption was that that was the mother and this young raccoon was lost and we picked it up and we brought it home and it had nothing in its eye [00:36:00] sockets, just empty eye sockets, a totally blind raccoon, so Uh, apparently born that way, just, it didn’t look, there were no scars, just born without eyes, and we named it Charlie, uh, a Ray Charles reference, and, um, and, and we cared for it for probably three weeks, um, feeding it and, and loving it, and it be, it was super sweet, like, it would, it would, it would do itself chirping, uh, when you’d come in, and it would feel your face, and, And, like, uh, [00:36:36] Jeff: Amazing! [00:36:38] Brett: and it, like, got to know Aditi’s face even better than mine, I think. [00:36:42] Brett: And, uh, we eventually found a sanctuary in Baraboo, Wisconsin that would take him. And, uh, We went back to visit him multiple times and he would come running up and he would feel Aditi’s face and just start [00:37:00] like chirping like so happy to see her and her nose ring he she he loved her nose ring [00:37:06] Jeff: Oh god, careful! [00:37:08] Brett: but like [00:37:09] Jeff: Yonk. [00:37:10] Brett: So, have you ever felt a raccoon’s paws? [00:37:13] Christina: No, [00:37:14] Brett: They are, they’re human. They’re so soft. They’re, it’s like human skin. And, and they’re very gentle with their paws, and they just, they pat and feel and, and. And wash their hands in water, if you’ve ever seen that, it’s adorable. Um, [00:37:30] Jeff: paws once, but we can talk about that later. [00:37:32] Brett: but I, I came to love raccoons and then when I first saw Guardians of the Galaxy, I felt a connection to Rocket. [00:37:42] Christina: right. [00:37:42] Brett: Um, [00:37:43] Jeff: Trash panda. [00:37:44] Brett: and then I saw Guardians of the Galaxy 3. In which you realize that the story was never about Star Lord, the story was Rockets the whole time, and Rocket becomes, I won’t, no [00:38:00] spoilers, everyone should absolutely see Guardians 3, um, you should probably watch all three in order, but, um, Rockets. Storyline, when you look at it, he goes from victim, like you get his full backstory in Guardians 3 where he is, uh, the product of experimentation and is almost, like, put to death because he has served his usefulness, he goes from victim to advocate to, to hero, to leader. [00:38:35] Brett: And, and you see, um, you see the progression of him emotionally, and it is… Every time I watch Guardian 3, which is three times now, I sob. I cry the whole way through. There’s a part where, where Rocket almost dies. And I know, after the first time, that he doesn’t die. I know, I know in my heart he’s gonna be okay, [00:39:00] and it’s still. [00:39:01] Brett: Hits me. James Gunn is a goddamn genius and, and obviously he wrote this story for Rocket. Like, this was Rocket’s story all along, and it has, like, it has led to all of these deep realizations about my own trauma, about my own story, and honestly, like, No, I rarely cry. Like, I’ll tear up a little for an emotional scene. [00:39:29] Brett: But this is like, I watch Guardians 3 and there are tears streaming down my face. And I have to like, I’m like, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. It’s snotting into my shirt and it’s, it’s amazing. I, uh, have you guys seen Guardians 3? [00:39:45] Christina: I haven’t, um, I’ve wanted to, is it on Disney Plus now? [00:39:48] Brett: Yeah, yeah it [00:39:49] Christina: cool. Alright, I’ll watch it, uh, cause I, I wanted to see it, um, this summer and I just wasn’t able to. Um, but, uh, but I like the first two and, and I always kind of agree with you. I thought that Rocket was like, [00:40:00] uh, a very underrated character and like, should’ve like had more, especially after the second one, I was like, okay, this character fucking rules like this. [00:40:06] Christina: I, I, I’m, I’m, I’m into the, the [00:40:08] Brett: Well, he’s got this whole, like, tough guy persona. He has to be, like, the toughest guy in the galaxy, right? But he’s just covering up his own insecurity and pain. And there’s this amazing scene where, I can’t remember the character’s name, the blue guy, Yondu or something like that, um, starts yelling at him about… [00:40:27] Brett: He’s like, I know who you are. I know what you are. And he starts explaining like all of these things that hit Rocket to his core. And then he’s like, I know who you are because you’re me. And Rocket’s response is, what a pair we are. And like, it’s, it’s so cutting. It’s so biting. It’s so good. Um, I’m going to link a, um, a podcast on Rocket. Um, I can’t remember the name of the podcast, but it’s, uh, um, uh, [00:41:00] Filmmaker and a psychologist and… I want to say a film critic, um, that come together to talk about Rocket’s kind of trajectory through this whole thing. Um, anyone who is at all touched by this, whether you’ve seen Guardians 3 or not, um, go check out this podcast. [00:41:19] Brett: It’ll be in the show notes. It’s, it’s a YouTube video podcast, a videocast. Um, but it, it is absolutely worth seeing. Even, you could watch it as a prequel too. To seek, to seeing, actually seeing Guardians 3, but yeah, so that’s my raccoon thing. Oh, and Elle is knitting me a raccoon. Um, she started this before Guardians 3 came out because she knew I loved raccoons to begin with. [00:41:51] Brett: Um, after we saw Guardians 3, I’m like, We are naming this stuffed animal you’re making me, we’re naming it Rocket. And she, [00:42:00] so I have this brand on the inside of my right forearm that is this spiral that I made with a twisted up coat hanger and a blowtorch and it represents, for me, it represents like serious trauma and depression And healing. [00:42:18] Brett: Like, there’s like a whole story to it, and she’s gonna tattoo, and we’ve talked about like doing couples tattoos, like her taking on this brand as well, in the form of a white tattoo, but she’s gonna put this onto my stuffed raccoon, and I was like, oh my god, that is, that’s amazing. Will mean so much to me. [00:42:40] Jeff: Yeah. That’s beautiful. Also, if I’m not mistaken, the picture of you in the blind raccoon is gonna be the show art. Right? [00:42:47] Brett: It will, yes. [00:42:48] Jeff: I love that photo so much. When I, when I showed my kids, they’re like, is this the same one that had an arrow through its head? I was like, I don’t think so. [00:42:56] Brett: That did happen, though. Was that a goose? [00:42:59] Jeff: No, you.[00:43:00] [00:43:04] Jeff: First of all, thank you for that. Secondly, how the, I don’t think a goose could have an arrow through its head and be walking around. It was a raccoon. You told me the story. You and Aditi actually both told me the story. The one time I met her and the first time I met [00:43:16] Brett: Yeah, [00:43:17] Jeff: uh, that, that you looked out your, I think your, your deck sliding glass door and there was a raccoon with an arrow through its head walking around. [00:43:25] Brett: yeah. That sounds very true. My memory is so foggy, but, um, speaking of pets though, speaking of rescued animals, so, we, I’m sorry, I’m taking up a lot of time here, but, um, [00:43:40] Jeff: That’s all right. [00:43:41] Brett: We got a cat from the Humane Society, uh, we went in and we looked and there were a couple of long hairs that we really wanted, but they were like, there’s four people on the waiting list for these already. [00:43:54] Brett: So we brought home a cat whose name at the Humane Society was Connie, short for [00:44:00] Concrete, having something to do with her origin story, but she had been fostered and returned because was too underfoot, um, she was too loving, and they considered her dangerous to have around the house. So we named her Hazy, short for Safety Hazard. [00:44:20] Brett: And we spent, we spent a week with her, but she proved to be, um, an exceptional escape artist. Uh, we just spent thousands of dollars getting new windows in her home, and they have these screens that you can squeeze and pop out. And she figured out. How to pop the screens out and I came home from getting groceries and there was a screen lying in our front lawn and sure enough she was gone. [00:44:46] Brett: She didn’t go far. I sat down on the front porch. She came up. She was, she was wrapping herself around my legs within minutes. So we thought, okay, from now on we can only open the windows from the top because both sides slide, right? [00:45:00] So we open it from the top. Next day, we’re watching a YouTube video in the living room, and we look out the front window in the rain, and there’s a very wet hazy looking in at us. [00:45:10] Brett: Um, and that’s untenable to never be able to open windows in our house again. So, so we took her back, and when we did, they’re like, So you know those four people waiting for these long hair cats? They all, they all bowed out [00:45:27] Jeff: Oh my [00:45:27] Brett: and were like, perfect. So right now up in my room as like the quarantine room, I have two long haired cats. [00:45:34] Brett: We’re debating on names. We have considered Data and Lore. We have considered Wilhelm and Jacob, uh, the Grimm brothers. Uh, we have considered Niles and Frasier, but right now we’re kinda leaning towards Morris and Dick, or Richard. And, because, like, I had an Uncle Morris, she had an Uncle Dick, and we’re gonna name them after our uncles, the personalities [00:46:00] fit pretty well. [00:46:00] Brett: One of them is super gregarious. And like, just out there loving you. And the other one hid under my bed for the first 24 hours he was home. And now is like coming out and it’s like being a little more social. But I love these cats. I really think they’re gonna work out. Still have to introduce them to Bod. [00:46:20] Brett: But I’m excited. [00:46:22] Christina: That’s great. Thank you. [00:46:22] Jeff: That’s [00:46:23] Brett: I’ll shut up now. I have talked for like 10 minutes straight. You guys, you guys. [00:46:27] Jeff: No, I got nothing. [00:46:29] Christina: Um, [00:46:30] Jeff: also close to a gratitude [00:46:32] Grapptibitching [00:46:32] Christina: I was going to say, I was going to say, it’s almost Gratitude time. Uh, before we get into Gratitude, uh, I want to do, um, uh, uh, Grapto Bitch and, um, complain a little bit about some, uh, [00:46:41] Brett: Oh, yes. [00:46:41] Christina: of the things with macOS, uh, Sonoma, which I have to admit, I look, I didn’t test a lot of the things in the beta. [00:46:47] Christina: Like I had it in on like an external drive. I did it in VMs. I didn’t do it on like, you know, bare metal or whatever, because I’m not about that life anymore. I don’t have to be, so I’m not, so fuck that. Um. But, okay, [00:47:00] first of all, the default behavior of when you click on the desktop. What the fuck, guys? What the fuck? [00:47:07] Brett: You don’t like that? I love that. [00:47:09] Christina: I [00:47:10] Brett: That makes me so happy. Okay. It makes me happy because I, I added like 10 widgets to my desktop and now I don’t have to use the, the mouse gesture. I can just click anywhere on the desktop and see my widgets. That works for me. [00:47:26] Christina: which is fine, but like, okay, but didn’t there used to be a way, like, you could do basically two things. Like, one, which is I could click on my desktop and keep my windows there, fine. And then there was also an option where you could just see your desktop the way, with all the widgets, well, everything moved away. [00:47:41] Brett: like a five finger swipe out on a trackpad would move all your windows. Yeah. [00:47:46] Christina: And that’s gone now. I don’t have that option anymore. And [00:47:49] Brett: No, that’s like, you can, oh, maybe better touch tool gives it to me, [00:47:53] Christina: Maybe better touch [00:47:54] Brett: trigger it. [00:47:55] Christina: I mean, I’m going to have to set up a better touch tool to do that, though, on like, across a bunch of [00:48:00] devices. So that pisses me off. Like, don’t fuck with my default behavior like that. Like, that’s number one. Don’t move my cheese. I’m becoming that person. But the real thing that I want to rant about is Okay, it is the year of our lord, 2023. [00:48:11] Christina: It is almost 2024. What the fuck, Apple Music for Mac? What the fuck? Like, actually, what [00:48:17] Brett: used it. Is it bad? What, what [00:48:19] Christina: still, it’s still awful. That’s the point. Like, Spotify is what I use on desktop. I cannot open the music app. I know, [00:48:28] Brett: Spotify on [00:48:29] Christina: Yes. Yes. [00:48:31] Brett: It, like, it glitches every, like, 15 seconds or so my sound cuts out, ever since I installed Sonoma. Oh, it’s been bad. [00:48:39] Christina: Okay, mine doesn’t do that. So, uh, but they did update the interface in a way that I don’t like, but that’s beside the point. It’s still better than the shitshow that is Apple Music for the Mac, where, I, I, like, I don’t know, guys. Like, what the fuck? Like, genuinely, I, I, I know that you had to kill iTunes or whatever, but, like, did you? [00:48:57] Christina: Because, honestly, it’s, it’s this [00:49:00] shitty, shitty, shitty app that runs poorly. I don’t know what it is supposed to be. And here’s the worst part. People, And when I bitch about this on, on Macedon or, or Twitter or whatever, but usually on Macedon because that’s where I mostly do my, my, um, tech bitching because Twitter is whatever. [00:49:16] Christina: Um, [00:49:17] Brett: it’s called X now. [00:49:18] Christina: oh, fuck you. I’m never going to, I’m, I’m going to, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, that, that, that should be like the, the preview for our, uh, for, for our episode. That should be the, the, the, the teaser. Oh, fuck. You know, actually it’s called Macedon. It’s called X now. It’s called Macedon. It’s called X now. Fuck you. Yeah. [00:49:33] Christina: Um, no, no, fuck off for real. I’m never calling it X. Um, Fuck off. No, but like, when I, when I bitch about this on Mastodon, I’ll inevitably get people who will be like, Oh, well, just use the web app. Okay, first of all, fuck you too, because [00:49:48] Brett: For Apple Music? Oh, God, no. [00:49:52] Christina: correct, correct, correct. That’s a weird being so far up Apple’s asshole, right? [00:49:59] Christina: [00:50:00] Honestly. But B, I would, except the whole reason that I use Apple Music, the entire reason why I like it over Spotify. The only thing that it has over Spotify for me is that it has the Decades, and it is plural now, of music that I’ve purchased from, from iTunes in the cloud. Um, not all of which, in, in fact, a fairly substantial amount is not available on Apple Music. [00:50:24] Christina: And it has the decades, again plural, of music that I’ve uploaded over the years that I’ve gotten from other places that might not be available in Apple Music. So that’s the whole reason that I prefer it, because it has my cloud. It’s basically a cloud version of like my local library that I used to have to carry around all the time, as well as the entire catalog of songs. [00:50:45] Christina: Otherwise, I would just say, fuck you, I’m using Spotify, they had better playlists anyway. But I can’t because I like having some of my specific, you know, versions and other things. So I primarily use Apple Music on my phone and my iPad for mobile, [00:51:00] and then I use Spotify on the desktop. I would like to use Apple Music on the desktop, but I can’t because it’s a piece of shit because it consumes so much memory and it’s awful. [00:51:08] Christina: And if I open it, it does all kinds of things and it’s just a bad experience. And so, but here’s the, here’s the kicker. The web version of Apple Music does not let you listen to any of your local library uploads. It doesn’t let you listen to any of your iCloud uploads. So it ruins that for [00:51:22] Jeff: which you can do on your phone, [00:51:24] Christina: yes. [00:51:25] Christina: And on your Mac, but not on the web service [00:51:27] Jeff: No, I’m saying you could use that everywhere else. And it’s, it’s not, [00:51:30] Christina: not, not, not there. Exactly. So, so fuck you Apple for, for ruining, like you had the best music app thing in the world and you threw it away, um, more than a decade ago when you ruined iTunes, but like started with that goddamn icon, but like fucking. [00:51:48] Brett: so much more money on it [00:51:49] Christina: I, I know, and I don’t care, and like, can you dedicate some of your resources to making the fucking desktop app work so that I don’t have to live in this weird two universes? [00:51:59] Christina: I’m [00:52:00] sorry, that was, that was a really long rant, and that was [00:52:02] Brett: No, that’s cool. I, um, I actually don’t use Apple Music on the desktop, so I haven’t, I, like, it frustrated me a long time ago, and Spotify was just [00:52:13] Christina: Better. [00:52:14] Brett: Um, I, I really appreciate Spotify, however, I cannot use Spotify on my Mac right now. Um, every, every 15 seconds or so, it cuts out for maybe two seconds and then comes back, not paused, like it’ll skip two seconds of whatever I’m listening [00:52:34] Christina: god, that’s awful. [00:52:35] Brett: yeah, so it’s unusable. It’s, it’s absolutely pointless for me. Um, so I have just been listening on my phone and pushing it to my speakers in my office. Um. Through my echo, weirdly enough, um, completely outside of Apple’s ecosystem, but, uh, [00:52:58] Christina: fuck them, man. [00:52:58] Brett: it works. [00:53:00] And, and I, I do love Spotify. I really [00:53:03] Christina: I do too. I think their playlists are so much better. It’s like scary how much better they are. Like, it’s, it’s like scary. [00:53:09] Brett: for sure. Apple, the last couple of times I’ve loaded Apple Music, I haven’t even seen the For You playlist. I don’t even know if they’re doing [00:53:17] Christina: No, they are. They are. In fact, they’re making it better. They’re supposed to introduce like a 4U station and they’re trying to do other stuff. But, but they’re so far behind what Spotify does for Spotify. Spotify Discover, but also Spotify will take like, they’ll customize playlists based on your listening thing where they’ll be like, okay, this is a playlist for this type of genre or this thing and we’ll customize it. [00:53:37] Brett: six a day [00:53:39] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:40] Brett: genres. [00:53:41] Christina: But, but even beyond that, they’ll be like, this is a playlist on this thing, but for Christina Warren. So it’s, it’ll be like their own kind of, so really a cross between curated and algorithmically determined based on your history, like, which is fucking brilliant. Like it’s. And I discover so much, I discover so much new music from Spotify that I never [00:54:00] discover new music on Apple Music ever. [00:54:01] Jeff: Oh man. Yeah. Spotify is incredible for that. [00:54:04] Brett: I, all, all of the bands I have learned about in the last year have been because they’ve, they’ve created a playlist for me that is about half songs that I have loved in the past or songs that I listen to frequently. And then half songs I’ve never heard, but makes sense based on my listening history. [00:54:25] Brett: And I have found like so many new bands. All the new bands I listen to are because Spotify suggested them. [00:54:32] Christina: Same. Same. I like, I listen to all these like, you know, like 20 year olds who are making, you know, like indie lo fi throwback to like, you know, late nineties, early two thousands music. And I’m like, God, I don’t even want to contemplate the fact that this is throwback for you, but I love, but I love it so much. [00:54:49] Christina: And I’m like, and I find about, I’ve learned about it on Spotify, you know, uh, like Apple Music. You tried, but, and I pay you still, so fuck you, but like, I, I [00:55:00] pay, [00:55:00] Brett: the, I do the Apple one. [00:55:02] Christina: same, but I, I, I still think I pay, I pay regardless, but like, because of, again, I like having my local music stuff, but the Spotify stuff is just so much better. [00:55:11] Christina: It really is. [00:55:12] Jeff: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. [00:55:14] Grapptitude [00:55:14] Brett: All right. We should do Graptitude because I have yet another thing to interject in my Graptitude, [00:55:20] Christina: Okay. [00:55:21] Brett: but I’ll keep it short. I promise I’ll keep it short. But Christina, I think you have one to go start with. [00:55:26] Christina: I do, I do. Okay. So my pick this week is called Interlink, and Interlink is an app from the creator of Pins, which is a cross, uh, it’s a not cross platform, but it’s a Mac and an iOS, uh, Pinboard, um, um, app and pinboard, meaning pinboard dot i n. Here’s the thing with Pinboard, uh, Brett and I have both used it for forever. [00:55:46] Christina: I don’t know if you’ve ever used it, Jeff, but, um, okay. So we’ve, we, all three of us have used this for forever. I think we’ve all noticed that it has basically been in maintenance mode for a while. In fact, I think that, uh, Message, like, took, like, a year plus off and, like, [00:56:00] didn’t do anything with it. Like, I don’t even know if he was responding to, you know, user requests, because there used to be, like, a monthly thread on, on Hacker News, like, is Pinboard still alive? [00:56:09] Christina: Um, and so, and so he’s ostensibly, I think, back, but… He’s not putting any effort into it. And that concerns me a little bit as someone who has like tens of thousands of links in this app or, you know, in this service. So it also, I think, concerns the creator of Pins. So he’s created this app called Interlink, which is basically, it’s a link, it’s basically Pins, but with, uh, his own kind of backend, um, to address Pins shortcomings, mostly due to API limitations. [00:56:36] Christina: And I’m reading this from, um, his, uh, from, from the, the, the Mastodon, um, account. Um, Fast forward to 2023, I’m building a new link organizer to address Penza’s shortcomings, mostly due to API limitation, limited syncing capabilities, lack of bulk link management, batch processing, among others. While I’m aware of similar offerings, bookmarking is so last century, I want something mobile first instead of web first. [00:56:59] Christina: [00:57:00] This becomes Interlink’s roadmap. Kind of has a whole thread on that. Um, it’s only available in TestFlight right now, uh, for, for Mac and iOS, but it’s really good. It will import all of your links from pins. There’s a bookmarklet, uh, that’ll work on browsers as well as a browser extension for Chrome browsers. [00:57:17] Christina: Um, and, uh, if you go to interlinkhq. com, there are some docs. Like I, I will be happy to pay whatever he needs to, to charge for this, um, once it’s, it’s ready. Um, I’m, um, I’m, I’m, I’m in, like, this is, this is really great because it’s basically pens but better and with somebody who seems, you know, mostly committed, I think, to actually, uh, keeping this up and running. [00:57:45] Brett: Yeah, so that, that would be my concern is Pinboard did this interesting payment plan where everyone who signed up paid like a penny more than the person who signed up before them. [00:58:00] So signing up now costs you like, what, like 15 bucks a month? I don’t even know. [00:58:04] Christina: I’m not sure about that, but with you, what, what it was is that it used to be, you used to be able to buy like a, um, like a, a lifetime plan and, and I think you and I were definitely on that. But I eventually upgraded to. Being able to pay, like, I think to make things like, I pay like a certain amount for archiving, um, [00:58:21] Brett: Oh yeah, 25 bucks a year. [00:58:23] Christina: or $33 a year or something like that. [00:58:24] Christina: And, and I do that just because I get so much use out of the service. And I even asked him, I was like, look, how will you get more money if I, if I, you know, opt into paying you, you know, for an account, um, that I, that I have or buy, you know, doing the, um, archiving. He was like, what you’re doing is fine. So, but that was a couple of years ago. [00:58:42] Christina: I don’t know what the situation is [00:58:43] Brett: so, longevity is my concern. As you mentioned, we both have thousands of links in these services. Um, uh, Pinboard imported my Delicious links. [00:58:56] Jeff: Oh, yeah, same [00:58:58] Brett: all of, Pinboard’s API is [00:59:00] basically a duplicate of Delicious. Um, that was his goal, was just parody with delicious, and then he did, he stopped. Like, he didn’t, it didn’t need much more than that, and it works fine for me. [00:59:14] Brett: Um, if I were going to switch to a new service, I would need to know that they were dedicated to… Longevity, and I would need an API similar to Delicious or Pinboard, uh, to access my bookmarks, uh, because I do, I do a lot of command line work with my Pinboard bookmarks, and, and it, it works, like, he can take a year off, I don’t care, like, it works, and everything feels safe. [00:59:43] Christina: yeah, I think the problem that I had, like, there was a certain amount of, um, stuff where, um, like, uh, people’s, like, backups were not working, and, and so that, that was sort of the problem, right? So, [00:59:56] Brett: like exports or? [00:59:58] Christina: like, like, like, like, so that [01:00:00] was, that was sort of the problem, so I, I, I, and I can understand that, so, um, anyway, [01:00:07] Brett: Yeah, cool. No, I’m excited that there’s, you know, some forward movement in this space because, yeah, nobody should be using browser bookmarks anymore. [01:00:18] Christina: no, [01:00:18] Brett: They’re unmanageable. There’s, there’s a limit to, uh, how useful they can be once you have more than, say, a hundred. And. And for like, read later applications, they’re pointless, like, just a waste of, of… [01:00:34] Christina: 100%. And, and I like matter a lot and I like what they’re doing a ton, but I just, this, these things, like they accomplish different things for me. So, um, like I, I can, I can siphon some things that I use in Pinboard or interlink into matter, but there are some things that are just different. Right. [01:00:50] Christina: And obsidian is the same way. Like, I can have my, my links ex, you know, different stuff that I want. But like, I, I love, I mean, I don’t know, I, I use Pinboard, um, so much. [01:01:00] Um, and so anyway, Interlink is my pick. Um, I’m still using Pinboard. I’m still, you know, using both because I’m, I’m, you know, whatever. I’m never going to stop using Pinboard. [01:01:07] Christina: But like, um, but, but I’m, I’m excited about, about Interlink and, and he updated the test flight, uh, just the other day and that’s why I thought of this. And so, um, I, I hope that he continues like working on it because I really like pins and, and he updated pins as well. But like, I, you know, I, I, if he’s getting frustrated with limitations with the API and whatnot, like that says something. [01:01:26] Christina: And so I’m, I’m glad that he’s scratching his own itch. And I hope that. That this can be something that can be sustainable. [01:01:32] Brett: I’m still using Spillow even though it is not terribly compatible with more modern operating systems. Pins is good. Uh, Spillow offers a more, um, newsreader like interface that I love. Um, but anyway, I’ll, I’ll add Spillow and, and Pins to this show notes. Jeff, what do you got? [01:01:55] Jeff: I’ll be brief because I’ve already mentioned it, but I’m actually like in a phase of not trying new apps [01:02:00] too much because of how fiddly I can get. And I’ve had so many deadlines. Um, but I’ve had to, I’ve had to build decks for client work and client presentations over the last couple of weeks and, um, deck set. [01:02:14] Jeff: I know there’s, it’s not the only thing that does this, but you know, it’s, it allows you to create a deck from Markdown file and my, um, My ability to create a, like an effective and cohesive slide deck that does not have me working on stupid formatting, like is incredible. I also just, I mean, there’s something I’ve never said about what I love about it, which is that, yeah, I’m not working with a client. [01:02:39] Jeff: And they’re like a large organization and they, a lot of their information is stored in PowerPoints. And, and that is like the craziest way to write, uh, your information because you’re, it’s not even a creative constraint, right? You’re constrained by when the font gets so small that you can’t. Use it anymore in a slide, right? [01:02:59] Jeff: Or like [01:03:00] you’re, you’re constrained by the time that you waste, um, trying to make that diagram that nobody understands anyhow. Um, and, and what I love about, uh, writing a deck in Markdown is that I can, I can write without worrying about, does it fit on the slide? And I can break up the slides later. And And it’s made me such a more effective sort of like, not just deck creator, but like facilitator with decks. [01:03:22] Jeff: I hate using decks. I hate them. Um, but I just, I’m so glad for Deckset and, and, and obviously by extension for plain text and Markdown in general. [01:03:34] Christina: Yeah. Um, and I’ll, I’ll mention once again, DexEdit is great, but I’ll also mention, uh, because I mentioned this, uh, a few Graptitudes ago, IA Presents, IA Presenter rather, which is new at, and does a similar thing from the people behind IA Writer is fantastic. It’s really, really good. [01:03:49] Brett: I don’t, I don’t know about IAPresenter, but I love that DexSet makes it easy to add builds so you can have, like, uh, line by line, uh, bullet lists [01:04:00] that come [01:04:00] Jeff: I still never use that. I’m in too much of a hurry because here’s how I create decks. I don’t know how it works, but I always finish my deck two seconds before I log onto the Zoom. And so that’s about when I, that’s about when I want to do that build. [01:04:12] Brett: I went to, I went to Sal Segoyan’s Command D conference a couple years back, a few years back, and, um, I wasn’t on the speaker list, but then Andy Hidnako canceled. He got sick, and he canceled, and they came to me, and they’re like, hey, can you do, like, can you do the keynote presentation? For, for this. Um, and, and I was like, shit. [01:04:40] Brett: Yeah. Okay. Um, so I sat down with deck set and wrote out an entire presentation in markdown about O s A script, the command line, apple Script utility, and, and I output a deck that I was able to use on stage. And yeah, deck [01:05:00] set has saved my ass multiple times. [01:05:03] Jeff: That’s great. And, and IA Presenter looks really cool, by the way. I’m going to download it and just peek at [01:05:07] Christina: Yeah, you should. It’s really, really good. And, and obviously the people behind it make really great apps. [01:05:12] Brett: I don’t know how actively DexSet is, uh, developed [01:05:16] Jeff: I don’t think it is. There’s not really a community around it [01:05:18] Christina: There’s not that this is, this is why I got into iPresenter, um, and you might’ve been gone for that, that week, Jeff, um, when, when I, uh, talked about this one, but yeah, cause this is, this is one of the ones that I’m, um, uh, I’ve started using it because yeah, I mean, I work at one of, uh, uh, GitHub is not huge on, uh, like storing things in, uh, presentations, but I have to give a number of presentations and whatnot. [01:05:43] Christina: And, and it’s very nice when I can build them out, um, in Markdown. And then, if I have to go back and format it into something else, I can, but it’s really nice to just be able to do it that way. [01:05:56] Jeff: That’s awesome. Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah.[01:06:00] [01:06:00] Brett: of Markdown, my pick for the week is Noteplan. Have you guys ever used Noteplan? [01:06:07] Jeff: I just started using it again. I do that every [01:06:09] Brett: Yeah, yeah, I, I had let it go for a few years and then was talking to the developer and got myself ushered into a free license and, and started making more use of it, [01:06:25] Jeff: It’s on Setapp too. [01:06:27] Brett: yet. Is it really? Are you sure? [01:06:29] Jeff: Mm hmm. [01:06:30] Christina: I see it right now. [01:06:31] Brett: I could have been using it this whole time and I didn’t know it. [01:06:36] Christina: I haven’t used this in a long time, um, but, but I’m, I’m into this. [01:06:41] Brett: I have to update a certain YAML file now. [01:06:43] Jeff: Also allows you to just work out of a, out of a file of Markdown, you know, like a folder of [01:06:49] Brett: So like, so like the idea behind NotePlan is you store daily notes and they can contain to do items and it [01:07:00] has an interface. If you start typing a date, it’ll pop up a little date picker for you and you can. Schedule due dates and defer dates, and keep everything in plain text, um, but with like project management capabilities. [01:07:16] Brett: So you can see all of your upcoming to dos, all of your to dos for the day, and you can create checklists just using real simple Barkdown syntax. Uh, and organize it all in one place. And it is all stored as plain text that you can open and edit in other applications. And it’s, it’s a very impressive, like it’s, it’s just super elegant for, for as kind of complex as the idea is. [01:07:50] Brett: It makes everything super easy. I [01:07:52] Jeff: Yeah, it has these, [01:07:53] Brett: enjoy it. [01:07:54] Jeff: I love the idea of sort of the day file. So you open up a day file and if you create a to do list in there, it’s really easy to [01:08:00] actually have it moved to the next day. And I actually use it and I, I don’t ever fall into a sustained pattern with no plan, but it does so much that I need. [01:08:11] Jeff: The thing that I always feel like it has the most potential is because it’s integrated with your calendar, I can go through the week and I can just create, I can kind of use a template to create meeting notes for all the different meetings. And I can, that are going to happen that week. It’s going to, it’s going to live in that day. [01:08:25] Jeff: So I won’t see it until I get to that day. And then I can also kind of create prep stuff where it’s like, okay, I have this meeting in a, in a, in on Thursday. Here’s what I need to add to my prep for now, whatever. I’ve never been able to really, truly integrate it, um, into my workflow, but like, that just seems like something that should be amazing for [01:08:45] Brett: just the idea that you’re mixing notes with to do items. Like, you can use something like, uh, Things or OmniFocus, and they focus on to dos, to which you can add notes. But, [01:09:00] Uh, Noteplant kind of reverses it where you’re writing notes, you’re writing journals and notes and, and incorporating to dos into the notes instead of vice versa, which is, once you, once you get into it, it’s actually a really fluid way to kind of document and plan. [01:09:20] Brett: I, I really appreciate it. It’s a good app. [01:09:23] Jeff: It’s awesome. [01:09:24] Christina: That’s great. I like that. I tend to do that myself, and so it’s funny that I, I think I’ve used Notepad before, maybe I haven’t, but now I’m definitely going to be, um, using it because [01:09:34] Jeff: And, oh, [01:09:35] Christina: this totally just fits my mind model. [01:09:37] Brett: So [01:09:38] Jeff: this is something that’s very actively developed. [01:09:40] Brett: yes, speaking of Noteplan, um, just a heads up, I am offering giveaways right now on BrettTerpstra. com. Every Monday I’m giving away a different app. Noteplan is coming up. Uh, just to give you a taste, uh, upcoming apps include Timing, Hookmark, Text [01:10:00] Expander, Scrivener, Hazel, Noteplan, Default Folder X, Towers, Solver, Spam Sieve, AppTamer, Kaleidoscope, Curio, Keyboard Maestro, Bartender, MarsEdit, FastScripts, Taskpaper, OmniFocus, Tech, uh, Black Ink, Things for Mac, Bike, FlexiBits Premium, which gets you access to Fantastical and Scheduling and Cardhop, uh, Eagle Filer, Unite 5, Omni Graffle, BBEdit, OmniPlan, and Dropzone. [01:10:29] Brett: Yes. So, [01:10:30] Christina: all my favorite apps. This is like a graphics tool smorgasbord. Like, shit. [01:10:34] Brett: so all of these, all of these will have free licenses, uh, offered to random drawing winners over, like I have them, they’re spread out through April now, um, so check bretterpstra. com every Monday, subscribe to the RSS feed, if you get on the mailing list, you’ll get it. Notifications every week about what’s, uh, what’s being given away. [01:10:57] Brett: Um, my, my mailing list has [01:11:00] increased by 400 people since I started this series. So I’m pretty psyched about it. Every developer I talked to is like, Oh yeah, cut me in. I’m a hundred percent. And I have not had a single rejection yet. And every time I think of an app, I’ll like email the dev and they’ll be like, yep, cut me in for five, 10 licenses. [01:11:19] Brett: Um, Omni was like, yeah, we’ll give you three, three pro licenses for every app we have. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s going to be awesome. So keep track of that. [01:11:30] Jeff: That’s great. [01:11:32] Brett: All right. I feel like we’re, we’re now hour 11. [01:11:36] Christina: Yeah, I think we’re [01:11:37] Brett: And honestly, zero edits. [01:11:39] Jeff: No, I can’t. Yeah. Yeah. It’s great. [01:11:42] Brett: That’s great. [01:11:43] Christina: yeah. [01:11:44] Brett: All right. So thanks everyone for listening to this unedited episode of Overtired. You guys get some sleep. [01:11:53] Jeff: Get some sleep. [01:11:55] Christina: Get some sleep. [01:12:00]

The gang’s all here once again to talk mental health, macOS video reactions, and our favorite software of the week. Show Links Sonoma video reactions Ivory Insane Mastodon thread Arc Boost Zap Lossless Cut Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Overtired 335 [00:00:00] Christina: [00:00:02] Christina: Welcome back, everyone. It’s me, Christina Warren. You’re listening to Overtired. Yeah, that’s right. I’m back. We’re actually doing an Overtired episode with all three of us, which means I’m here with Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severns Gunsell. Hello, boys. How are you? [00:00:19] Jeff: Man, one of those people is me. [00:00:21] Brett: it’s been like a month since people have heard your voice. [00:00:24] Christina: I know. I know. And it’s been like a month since I’ve heard either of your voices. So, and it feels like even longer, uh, because of the various things that… I’ve been going through this summer, so [00:00:34] Mental Health Corner, Part I [00:00:34] Brett: Feels like, feels like we had a summer vacation. [00:00:37] Christina: It does, it does. And, and uh, maybe we should do like a little bit of a round robin on that. [00:00:42] Christina: Like, what did you do on your summer vacation [00:00:44] Jeff: it’s funny, my, [00:00:45] Christina: health corner? [00:00:45] Jeff: my kids go back to school on Tuesday, so it feels very [00:00:48] Christina: because uh, Labor Day, [00:00:49] Jeff: Yeah. [00:00:51] Brett: Um, yeah, let’s, let’s do that. Let’s, uh, let’s kick off a mental health corner that includes what did you do this summer? [00:01:00] Which for some of us might be the last two weeks, but, uh, uh, Jeff, do you want to start? [00:01:06] Jeff: Yeah, actually, mine is directly, it’s not exactly what did I do this summer, but for my oldest son who’s going into senior year, it was the last summer break of, you know, potentially him living in our home. And, uh. [00:01:20] Christina: Last one is a family unit. [00:01:21] Jeff: Yeah, and, and that’s, that hits in a new way or in a new context like all the time and it’s really hard for me right now, like, we are a super tight family and like loose family, but like tight, like we joke with each other, we have good shared bits, we, I think I would say that both of our sons have like a real sense of freedom to bring up any kind of topic and not worry about us freaking out and, um, And we have a dynamic between the four of us. [00:01:50] Jeff: My youngest is, um, is 14. And it’s a balance, right? Like, it’s a balance of these four personalities that have, like, developed even as, you know, we’ve developed [00:02:00] as parents, right? Like, and, and we’re at a point that we love, like, we don’t, neither, we were talking about this this morning, I see people with babies, and even though I’m, like, pre grieving my oldest son leaving, I Do not at all look at people with babies and go like, Oh, if only I could turn the clock back. [00:02:15] Jeff: Because like, I don’t want to, I loved, I loved being a parent at every single stage, being a father or dad or whatever at every single stage. But there, there’s never been a point when I didn’t love the current stage enough that I didn’t wish for another stage. I wished for when they were more snuggly, for sure. [00:02:32] Jeff: They might, like, come into our bed or something, that’d be super weird now, so it doesn’t make any sense to wish for it now, um, but uh, but yeah, like, I’m, you know, he’s looking at schools out of state, um, and that, and I get that, man, I get it, I fuckin shot off like a rocket when I almost finished high school and it was over, um, and uh, so I understand, you know, like, that’s just like a part of… [00:02:57] Jeff: In our culture, at least, like, definitely in American [00:03:00] culture, that’s a part, that’s a ritual of growing up, is you go away, way away, um, and he’s looking at that, he’s also looking at schools closer, but like, um, my actual, like, my mental health corner topic today was exactly this, it’s like, it’s like trying to get out of the trap of pre grieving something that hasn’t happened yet, even though… [00:03:21] Jeff: It’s not like it’s, there’s that thing of like, don’t, don’t wallow in something that may not happen. Like this is definitely happening. Um, and, and it’s so great for him because it feels like an end for us, but it’s like the beginning of everything for him. And I, I have such a different perspective now on. [00:03:42] Jeff: For instance, the way that when I was like 22, I went to war zones. Like, I now know that 22, a child who’s 22 is not going to feel like an old child, right? Like, he’ll definitely feel like someone who’s growing into adulthood, whatever. But like, I now don’t understand how my parents… Stood [00:04:00] that. Um, so anyway, like, I was dealing with this in therapy this week. [00:04:03] Jeff: I was like, I don’t want to spend the next year getting sad every time I think about him leaving, or every time he talks about being excited about going to school in Los Angeles if he gets accepted and stuff like that. Like, I don’t want that to be weighed down or burdened by my own, like, kind of sorrow, because I know that he’ll have some too, and, and it doesn’t help us, like, and it doesn’t… [00:04:23] Jeff: And it takes me away from really just continuing to enjoy what I know will be this last year with him. And, uh, and then also just the, this isn’t about grieving, but this is my last bit about this, is also just realize that my 14 year old, like, we’ll have three years of him in the house where we’re a three person family, like, practically in the house, right? [00:04:46] Jeff: Definitely a four person family. Um, And I, I only realized that recently, and I, I’m like, I have no idea what that dynamic’s gonna be like. He’s gonna lose, he, he and his brother are so close, they’ve never, I’ve never [00:05:00] seen them fight, I’ve never heard them fight. And no matter what we do, if they’re with us, they are behind us, walking wherever we’re walking, just like, bullshitting with each other. [00:05:10] Jeff: And, and so he’s also gonna lose, like, And, and like, yeah, like a role model, for sure. Um, and so I’m just in this space of like, holy shit, I didn’t realize how Destabilizing, this would be inside me, even a year before it happens, and so I’m really trying to work on not wallowing in grieving something that hasn’t happened. [00:05:32] Jeff: Especially when the grieving exists because I love what we have. So it’s like, just be there, be there! [00:05:41] Christina: be there, but I think it’s also okay for you to acknowledge that you’re going to be grieving and there’s going to be a loss and to be going through those emotions proactively so that it doesn’t just hit you in May. You know, or, or, or even worse, like next August. Like next August is gonna be really hard, but you don’t want to only start dealing with it then. [00:05:58] Christina: I think it’s smart for you to be [00:06:00] dealing with it now. I think what’s exciting though for your youngest son, like as close as he is with his brother, and there will be that loss and like that, you know, fear and whatnot. But this is also gonna be an opportunity for him to figure out who he is without his older brother. [00:06:10] Jeff: exactly. Yeah, I’m excited for that. I think the part, you’re right about kind of preparing and that’s definitely a thing. The part that seems untenable is that I’ve had a couple weeks of like, I just practically start crying whenever I think about it indefinitely if I’m talking about it. And so I’m like, okay, that’s too intense right now. [00:06:30] Jeff: I need to recognize what that is and like, be like, that’s actually amazing. Um, but then like, like you said, like, figure out a way of kind of holding the reality but not Uh, being sort of just stricken with intense emotion every time I think about it, you know? Because here’s the thing, if he goes to some college somewhere far away, and he calls us after week one, and then also month one and month two, and he’s like, I am so happy here. [00:06:55] Jeff: I will not feel that sadness. I will just be glad that he’s happy. Now, if [00:07:00] he’s super miserable, that’s its own thing, but I’m definitely not thinking about that. That’s a bridge I’ll cross another time. So anyway, that’s my, that’s my [00:07:07] Brett: Have you, have you studied, uh, attachment theory at all? [00:07:11] Jeff: Yeah, I mean, I’ve, insomuch as I have attachment issues, [00:07:16] Brett: Yeah, same, same. You’re not alone. Um, do you, it sounds like you actually have a pretty secure attachment to him. Um, it doesn’t seem like an anxious attachment. [00:07:28] Jeff: and vice versa, I think not to speak for him, but I really think that’s the case. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s good. That’s a nice, that’s a nice element to bring in. It’s like, my therapist kind of got to that too. It’s like, you guys have a great relationship. That’s Yeah. Thanks. That’s a lot more than you may realize right [00:07:44] Brett: yeah, yeah, for sure. [00:07:47] Jeff: Yeah. Anyway, the other thing is though, he, both of our boys, somehow we got them like a few years ago to each have a post dinner responsibility. One, one cleans up and puts away all the food and wipes the counters down. The other [00:08:00] one loads the dishwasher, although the other one is 17 and does that at one in the morning. [00:08:04] Jeff: Um, [00:08:04] Christina: Hey, but he still gets it done. [00:08:05] Jeff: but yeah, my wife and I were just like, we’re going to [00:08:08] Christina: We’re gonna have to, we’re gonna have to clean up. Ha! [00:08:13] Brett: You’re losing your free labor. [00:08:15] Jeff: the more selfish, less emotional, uh, uh, like, pre regret. So anyway, that’s me. [00:08:20] Brett: That’s just an adjustment. That’s not an emotional, an emotional loss. Um, Christina, do you want a Rochambeau for who goes next? [00:08:30] Jeff: Ooh, Rochambeau. [00:08:30] Christina: Uh, yeah. [00:08:33] Brett: All right, you ready? One, two, on three. One, two, [00:08:37] Christina: two, three. [00:08:38] Brett: god damn it. I, we both drew, we both had scissors. All right, try again. One, two, three. You go, you go, [00:08:51] Christina: Alright, I’ll go. Alright. [00:08:53] Jeff: We [00:08:53] Christina: Okay, so, um, what, how have I been, my mental health corner update slash what I’ve done on my summer vacation. They’re [00:09:00] kind of the same thing. Um, so as I was talking last time, um, trying a new, um, antidepressants, that is actually why I was not on the last pod and I was very sorry to, to miss our friend Jay, but, um, I, um, woke up and I was like having withdrawal and other issues. [00:09:17] Christina: I was just like, I can’t do it. I’m out. Um, things seem to be going better. This week has been a lot better than past weeks. Um, so I think that I’m now through all of the… Withdrawal hoops, and I think even some of the side effect hoops, we will see. But so far, it is, this was the first week, like I would say basically from like Tuesday on, where I’ve felt better. [00:09:40] Christina: There was a period of time where I was not, like, the depression was better, but I was definitely not. feeling like myself and I was like, I’m going to have to go off of this stuff. This is not going to work. But now I’m kind of hopeful that that’s not the case. So, um, I’ve got another, I have an appointment with my doctor, I think on like [00:10:00] the, the 11th or the 12th. [00:10:01] Christina: Um, let me check. I think it’s Apple Day. Um. No, it is the 13th. It is the 13th. Um, also, uh, side brief tangent, this is gonna get us cancelled, or not us, this is gonna get me cancelled, but, um, [00:10:17] Jeff: take me with you! [00:10:18] Christina: it’s, it’s been in the last four or five years or so, but like 9 11 is finally funny, and, and, and I, I keep like wanting to know, like, and it, and look, as like the generation who like, it was my friends who like went off to war and died, like, I feel like I can, I feel like, Older millennials and New Yorkers are the people who are most impacted, and so I feel like all of us know that it’s, it’s sort of funny now, like, obviously the event is not, but like, we can like poke fun at various aspects of it, like the memes. [00:10:46] Christina: I finally feel like it’s great to use the memes, but I keep wondering, like, when is it going to be safe for Apple to schedule an event on 9 11? Like, like when is that gonna be a thing where it won’t be just like [00:11:00] this taboo thing? Cause like if you, if you, if, cause like if you had, if you had been on D Day, like nobody would give a shit, right? [00:11:06] Christina: Like people wouldn’t be like, whatever, right? But like, so when is it gonna be okay for someone to have like a big press event on 9 11? [00:11:12] Brett: I feel like you’re right, like, the statute of limitations is kind of up on that, um, like, you could schedule it and some, like, right wing news source would be outraged, and maybe take a few people with them, but most people would be like, yeah, September 11th, that’s fine. [00:11:31] Christina: exactly, right? So, anyway, going, that, that was just a slight pivot and, and apologies for that. But like, um, so I’ve got an appointment with my shrink in, in two weeks, or a week and a half I guess to assess and see. Where things are and if I’m going to continue on this medication, things seem to be going a lot better. [00:11:47] Christina: Um, but my summer, to be honest, you guys, like has been me coming to terms with the fact that I had been depressed for years, um, And I knew that, but I hadn’t really wanted to focus on it, and then it [00:12:00] got to the point that the depression was so bad that it started impacting my work. And that was when, as I always do, like, you know, the first time I ever had one of the debilitating issues and I couldn’t get out of bed, it was when I was in high school. [00:12:13] Christina: And then I was in college, and now, you know, I’m, I’m an adult. And so, it’s been a difficult summer insofar as having to… Face the reality that, yeah, you’ve been depressed for years, and now it is finally at the point that it is impacting, you can’t cover it up anymore, it’s not just a thing that’s impacting your personal life and your at home life, like, it’s actually impacting your work, and if you don’t get this under control, you’re going to have to, um, take a leave of absence, and, and that was honestly my biggest fear, I was like, I don’t want you to have to Take a leave of absence and have to, you know, try to figure things out or God, I don’t even know if going into like a treatment facility would help, right? [00:12:50] Christina: Like, I have no fucking clue. I don’t think it would, but I don’t know, right? Like, you know, but I definitely didn’t want to have to take like medical leave. And so this was sort of my wake up moment [00:13:00] when I had to, that was end of June when I had to kind of face that. And then, you know, the last, you know, two months have really been all about, um, Trying to try out new drugs and, and get out of it and do a lot of self assessment and thinking and talking to friends and talk to my mom and talk to my shrink and, you know, get out of my own head. [00:13:23] Christina: And so I feel like it’s been good. I feel like the light is coming out of the tunnel. Um, but it’s felt like it’s just, it’s really been a summer of rebuilding and, uh, [00:13:34] Jeff: Yeah. Wow. And that, I mean, just hearing you say that when you start asking yourself that question, like, is there maybe an inpatient solution here? Um, I’ve been to that point once, and it’s really intense. Even though my friends who have done it, it’s like, I’m so happy for you. Right. Like, but wow. Uh, so just, just [00:13:53] Brett: Or even, even [00:13:54] Jeff: to that? [00:13:54] Brett: Even intensive outpatient treatment. It sounds, it sounds like, [00:14:00] um, I’m I’ll, I’ll talk about it in my, in my little segment of this segment, but, uh, it has been suggested to me that I might benefit from inpatient treatment and it sounds like so much. Work? Like, to, to take time off work and spend time, if I’m going to take time off work, I want to enjoy myself. [00:14:25] Christina: No, that’s kind of where I’m at. And so that’s been the thing that’s been a struggle like balancing and I felt kind of like an asshole because I, I mean, look, it’s been a slow period at work, which I’ve been lucky about. It’s about to get really busy. And so that’s okay too, that I’ve been able to sort of, you know, Not be super on it this summer, um, but I’ve had to even be more candid with people than I normally am. [00:14:47] Christina: I’m like, yeah, I’m going through medication change issues, which I’ve never had to do as an adult with, like, a corporate, you know, high paying job before. Um, I mean, I’ve had to do it when I was going through, like, awful medication [00:15:00] withdrawals. But that’s different than, than trying out new drugs and getting the side effects and dealing with that. [00:15:05] Christina: Like, withdrawal is one thing. The side effect fuck up shit is completely different and not knowing if it’s gonna work or not. And that’s why I put off admitting to myself how depressed I was for so long. Because if I’m being completely candid, I was at the point when I probably should have started doing this probably two years ago, right? [00:15:24] Christina: And… Um, I just let it, you know, fester and fester and fester and then it got to the point that I couldn’t anymore. So, I’m, I’m glad that I’m taking care of it. I’m glad that I’m at least able to recognize where I’m at and I’m glad that I didn’t get to the point where I would have to, yeah, like, go on medical leave and, you know, and the reason I think that I would maybe potentially do an inpatient thing, because, because part of me is like, is like, would that be any better than doing what you’re doing now? [00:15:54] Christina: And I’m like, well, yeah, maybe you’d be forced to do it. [00:15:56] Jeff: yeah, yeah, it [00:15:59] Christina: that would force you to [00:16:00] actually focus on it. [00:16:01] Jeff: I’ve always wondered about that, like, so I know, when I think about that, it feels like such a fracture in my entire story, right? But that’s not what it’s been for the people I care about who have done it, right? It’s been like… Yeah, I needed that. And also, I just want to acknowledge, we put a false frame around this, given what you’re talking about, of summer. And you’re describing something that’s two years, more than two years in the making, and that you’re, sounds like you’re very much in the middle of. [00:16:30] Christina: Yeah, but [00:16:30] Jeff: that, is that true? [00:16:32] Christina: It’s true, but it feels like I’m coming out of, right? So it feels like the nice thing has been summer and, and the break or the things that that represents. And it’s weird, you know, again, this is such an American thing and this is not the case for all industries at all. But at least, you know, in my world of tech, like I’m fortunate that, that Microsoft as a company is basically off in August. [00:16:52] Christina: And as a result, GitHub as a company, even though we have slightly different cadences and do different things, we are not going to [00:17:00] be as active either. And, um, that was a complete kind of shock to my system because the news never stops. You have slower periods, but the news doesn’t stop. But I was incredibly grateful for the fact that August is essentially A no one is around month, and you can, historically what I’ve done is I’ve used it to actually get shit, shit done and like, kind of, you know, uh, get myself prepared for, for, for the future. [00:17:26] Christina: This time I was able to just kind of like, okay, get yourself into a place that once it starts getting busy, you know, because September through, you know, early December is gonna be. Bam, you know, a ton of shit, um, you know, step up. So I’m feeling like I’m in a good place though, but that’s, that’s my long, what I did on my summer vacation slash mental health update, which to me kind of feel like the same thing. [00:17:54] Christina: Oh, there was also, there were also three Taylor Swift concerts in the middle, which, uh, which honestly was, was [00:18:00] good, was good therapy and was good, good stuff. And she’s going to be bringing that experience to movie theaters this October. [00:18:07] Jeff: Oh, nice. [00:18:08] Christina: everyone can [00:18:09] Jeff: was there? So, okay, I have a question about the Taylor Swift concerts. I, I’ve only seen so many, uh, I’ve only seen a few aspects of the stage design and, and performance. And the one that obviously you see the most is when she dives into the stage. Um, That must, now that I’m thinking of it in the context of how you’re feeling, I’m curious, is there one aspect of that show that you saw three times that felt like, I imagine that feeling like a relief? [00:18:36] Christina: That… [00:18:37] Jeff: yeah. [00:18:38] Christina: And then, so, I mean, the thing is, it’s such a weird experience because it’s like three and a half hours, but the whole day, like, you’re there for like six hours, right, if you, you know, by the time you get there and you’re just with all these people dressed up and everybody’s singing at the top of their lungs and screaming and excited and it’s unlike any concert or music or any experience I’ve ever actually been around. [00:18:57] Christina: before because I’ve never been around that many [00:19:00] people that much, you know, like everybody comes to it with their own perspectives and their own stories and their own affections, but I’ve never been around that many people who all love the same thing that you love. Um, that’s kind of fucking powerful. Um, but when she does the all too well 10 minute version on her guitar, that’s and everybody is, is singing every word of that 10 minute version of like my favorite song. [00:19:29] Christina: And it’s been my favorite song of hers before it was the fan favorite. Like the minute, like Red leaked on the internet before it came out on like, it’s supposed to be out on Friday and it came out on like a Wednesday night and I got like a pirated copy of like the deluxe edition or whatever. And I remember listening to it, you know, back to front, front to back, whatever. [00:19:46] Christina: And I remember coming back to that track five after I listened to the whole thing again, listened to it again and again. I remember, I think I remember even saying to Grant, I was like, This fucking song is really good and he just, he was dismissive but like, I remember like that it was [00:20:00] enough and I knew he’d be dismissive and that’s fine but I knew, I was like, I loved that song and then when she, you know, wrote the 10 minute version which I do not at all believe were the lyrics that she wrote originally in 2012. [00:20:13] Christina: I do not believe that for a second. Uh, [00:20:15] Jeff: So part of it is it’s expanding on this thing that already meant so much to you. [00:20:20] Christina: Yeah, and then she made the short film about it, right? But then doing that live, because I’ve seen her do the song, um, live before, actually before this tour I’d never seen, yeah, I had it on the Red Tour, yeah, I’d seen her do it live before and I’d watched millions of videos, but seeing that song would be enough within the 10 minute version, because it’s 10 minutes long, and it’s like, everybody in the crowd is just like, it’s this very emotional song and everybody just kind of, you know, screaming all the lyrics out is just, I don’t know, it’s kind of, uh, it’s kind of, like, exhilarating. [00:20:48] Jeff: Yeah. Sounds [00:20:49] Christina: So that, that, that, that, that’s, that’s the moment. But I love the, the stage jump moment, too. That’s, that’s so cool. That transition’s my favorite transition of all of them. Because then it looks like she swims underneath and then comes out the other side. It’s [00:20:59] Jeff: [00:21:00] since I have an opportunity to actually ask, what is the context of the stage, and to describe, right? I’m sure everyone’s seen it. She jumps into what looks like water, it’s a hole in [00:21:08] Christina: It looks like water. [00:21:09] Jeff: on some slide underground, and [00:21:11] Christina: Yep. So, so, so basically, I think that the setup for that particular one, I’m trying to think what she’s getting ready for, it’s switching one of the setups between like two of the eras, and I can’t think of what era to what era it’s doing. But basically, that’s how they’re transitioning. [00:21:27] Christina: I think, oh, I think when she comes up, that’s when I think that the, um, um, Uh, Folklore Cabin comes up, and she starts, um, doing, um, songs off of Folklore, um, I think, uh, when, when, uh, when she comes up, because they, uh, there’s, uh, a number of different set pieces, but one of the big ones is that the cabin for Folklore, which was featured in the music videos, but she also used it in her Grammy performance. [00:21:52] Christina: That’s on the main stage, which is not where she spends the majority of her time. She spends the majority of her time like on the catwalk or at the diamond in the center or at like a [00:22:00] front stage, but there is like a back like main stage area where this cabin comes up like from under the ground and it looks like it’s all moss covered and tree covered and it looks like it’s coming out of the earth and the trees are coming in. [00:22:12] Christina: And you know, it’s like this whole other world is taking you by. It’s actually pretty cool. The, the cool thing about this is, because they, so she announced this week that she’s bringing the experience to movie theaters, which is unreal. Um, and it’s going to be, I’m sure, you know, they’ve shot incredibly well. [00:22:29] Christina: So people will be able to see. What this was, and I’m sure it’ll then come to streaming, but it’s, it’s, it’s unheard of for something like this to go to theaters this way, um, And, uh, uh, Brett, some details about the financials behind it. She’s fucking smart. Her, and her, her parents are fucking smart. And, it’s, I, I now think that she’s trying to take on like, she’s trying to do Barbie sized dollars at the box office is what she’s trying to do. [00:22:54] Christina: And I think she will. Anyway, I’m done. That’s, that’s my whole, sorry, [00:22:57] Jeff: just to, now Brett, we gotta get to [00:23:00] you, I just wanna say my favorite phenomenon from this whole Taylor Swift thing, and a couple friends did this, is people getting registered as security guards. And, and, and working. So I have a friend who did that and he’s right, his back’s right to the stage, but then of course she’s walking around. [00:23:12] Jeff: So you’re still, you have like a front row seat. And, and I don’t think you have to do that much work as a security guard at a Taylor Swift [00:23:19] Christina: no, nobody’s, no, no, that’s the thing. Everybody knows they’re like, oh, there are snipers. There’s nobody’s getting close to that stage. Like, everybody, it’s, it’s like very [00:23:26] Jeff: Wait, are there literally snipers? Okay, [00:23:29] Christina: no, I mean, I don’t know. [00:23:31] Jeff: I get it, I get it. [00:23:33] Christina: I, I don’t think so, but at the same time, I probably think so. Like, if I’m being honest with you, [00:23:37] Brett: like, you don’t know, and that’s what keeps you from, that’s what [00:23:40] Jeff: Yeah, that’s the point. [00:23:41] Brett: You can’t be 100% [00:23:43] Jeff: be snipers. Alright. Heh heh. [00:23:47] Christina: In South America, I guarantee you there will be snipers. [00:23:52] Brett: Alright, so I have a question for both of you, um, leading into my, my mental health corner. Uh, you’ve [00:24:00] both talked about, uh, certain destabilizing. Hey, there it is! We’ll get, we’ll get to, we’ll get to that in a second, we’ll, we’ll try to figure out why that happened, but, um, uh, so you’ve both talked about certain destabilizing events, uh, that have brought forward mental health issues that you hadn’t been forced to deal with before. [00:24:24] Brett: And I have also had the same experience recently. Um, I am currently completely destabilized and flailing, but at the same time, I find myself really grateful that, um, that I’m being forced to deal with things that had always existed, [00:24:44] Christina: Mm hmm. [00:24:45] Brett: but that I had never… Uh, been bothered to deal with before. Do you guys have a certain feeling of like gratitude for this destabilization? [00:24:59] Christina: [00:25:00] Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there’s frustration sometimes with myself for waiting as long as I waited. Right. But no, but, but, but no, definitely I think there, when there are things that, you know, have been there that you’ve been able to avoid and that you’ve like put off, and then no. There is a certain sense of, of gratitude to be forced into dealing with it. [00:25:17] Christina: I think so. For Absolutely. Because you know you need to deal with it, [00:25:22] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Like the stuff that I’m going to therapy for right now is stuff that I know I’ve felt before it’s stuff that has come to the surface before, and I’ve always found ways to circumvent it. Um, but instead I’m being forced to actually confront it. And that’s been. That’s been good. So, okay, what I did this summer was work and exist and then last weekend I went to Minneapolis. Our couples therapist [00:26:00] recommended that I give Elle some time Because I work from home, and she works out of the house, so I get hours every day where I have the house to myself. [00:26:11] Brett: Uh, but if she’s home, I’m home. And I don’t go out much, and she doesn’t get much of a break. She never gets the house to herself, so I’ve started trying to schedule more, like, Instead of doing lunch with friends, I’ve been doing dinner with friends, um, drinks with friends. And I decided to give Elle a whole weekend and I would just take off and go to Minneapolis. [00:26:36] Brett: I got to see Jeff. I got to eat a bunch of great food. I got to meet Jeff’s kids, which was awesome. [00:26:41] Jeff: I just assumed your therapist said you needed a weekend where you got to see me and meet my kids. [00:26:46] Brett: sure. [00:26:48] Jeff: Heh heh heh heh heh. [00:26:48] Brett: Like, it doesn’t hurt to, um, increase my social FaceTime with other people. Like, that was also recommended by a therapist. So, it was a kill two [00:27:00] birds with one stone. Um, by the way, the, uh, the asteroid… Hitting the earth that killed the dinosaurs. Greatest, greatest historical ratio of killing birds to one stone. [00:27:16] Brett: Um, so, [00:27:18] Brett: it was a great trip. Um, I had a great time. Uh, honestly, I don’t think it was enough time for Elle to feel truly like refreshed and like ready to have missed me. Um. I think she needs more like 10 days before she’s actually like, Oh my God, I can’t wait for you to get home. Um, three days was… It was enough for her to get some sleep, I guess, but, um, but yeah, it was, it was good. [00:27:48] Brett: Uh, and then the other thing that I’ve been doing in the last month is walking on my treadmill desk. Like, I have a treadmill desk, and I’ve always [00:28:00] had the option to be walking while working. Um, but I, for a long time, have rarely taken advantage of it. Uh, since… Since the beginning of July, I have walked between 3 and 10 miles a day, every day. [00:28:16] Brett: And I really thought that would help me lose more weight than it did. Um, it turns out my body just has a set weight that it wants to be at. But I’ve built up a lot of strength and a lot of endurance and, and I am no longer like winded. Going on, going on 30 minute walks with the dog because I’m walking hours a day anyway. [00:28:42] Brett: Um, so that’s been good. I’ve also been lifting. Um, so some of my failure to lose weight could also be attributed to gain in muscle. Um, [00:28:53] Jeff: well done. [00:28:54] Brett: un unknown. I guess I don’t have a… A [00:28:57] Jeff: why I, when I’m trying to lose weight, I [00:29:00] never lift weights, and in fact, I never lift weights at all. [00:29:05] Brett: Yeah, [00:29:06] Jeff: I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna fuck up the data. [00:29:08] Brett: but I’ve been stable as far as bipolar goes. I’ve been stable for six months or more. [00:29:14] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, it’s been so long. I’m so proud of you. [00:29:18] Brett: Yeah. Well, yeah, like there’s a certain in historically that’s been a kind of shitty thing for me because, because without mania I don’t get anything done. But I have found, I have found that new stable that I was looking for, where I am actually like energetic and productive without tipping over. [00:29:41] Christina: I was going to say, that’s the thing, if you can find that point where you don’t have to use, because I, I don’t want to speak for you, but having been on this pod with you for so many years and talking to you, it does feel like sometimes maybe you’ve used those periods of mania as a crutch. Knowing that you could, you know, get things done and do other things and almost like, you know, [00:30:00] you, you kind of like, you know, use it as this thing and not to say that there can’t be good, it, it, not that it’s not amazing that you could do great things with it, right, but I think it’s even better if you are able to get things done without it. [00:30:11] Brett: agreed, [00:30:12] Jeff: In the past, you’d be like, Ooh, organic cocaine. Um, excellent. Uh, I also wanted to say, Brett, about that six months. I almost, it makes me wonder, this is a question to you. Um, I wonder, has it allowed you to get, I wonder if there was just an amount of time in which you are going to be bound to be asking yourself, what am I without X, right? [00:30:35] Jeff: But then after six months, you have to have answered that. [00:30:39] Brett: Yeah, so between the, uh, extracurricular meds I’m taking, um, and, and just a general shift in my overall, uh, like mental stability, like the new, the new [00:31:00] stable kind of just came about without Um, after, after a few months, I just found like a way to be productive, a way to keep coding, a way to keep creating, uh, without the mania. [00:31:16] Brett: And honestly, like the point I’m at right now, I could comfortably exist in for the rest of my life. Um. Like, I, I no longer feel a need to like, try to trigger mania, just to, just to get that spark of creativity, just to get that, um, uh, burst of productivity, like, I finally have like, a stable, and it’s every day, right, like, instead [00:31:47] Jeff: kind of count on it, you’re not flinching, maybe, or are you still flinching sometimes? Like, oh boy, is this it? [00:31:51] Brett: Oh, no, there have been a couple times when I’ve gotten, like, a bad night’s sleep, and I think, Oh, God, now I’m going manic. Um, that happened on my last [00:32:00] night in Minneapolis. Uh, I switched to a different hotel, and the bed was uncomfortable, and the AC was too loud, and it was just a shitty hotel. Um, and… I didn’t sleep at all that night and I drove home, I drove the two and a half hour drive back to Winona on about two hours of fitful sleep and I thought for sure that was gonna be the trigger that made me manic and it, it didn’t happen. [00:32:31] Christina: awesome. I [00:32:32] Brett: Yeah, and that night that I, it was like Southside Minneapolis and I was pretty far from, uh, the kind of centers of good restaurants, like the, the clusters of good restaurants. But there was this place right across the street from my hotel called, uh, I want to say the Clay Pot, and it was an Indian restaurant. [00:32:59] Brett: And [00:33:00] they had little symbols on their menu for gluten free, dairy free, and vegetarian, vegan. And, um, 90% of their menu was gluten free and dairy free. And then, like, 70% of that was also vegan, which is, like, that’s my sweet spot, right? Gluten free, dairy free, vegetarian. And I could order anything. And I… I had such a good time there. [00:33:29] Brett: And they asked me, do you want spice level one through seven? So I was like six, I can do six and it was mild. And I wish I’d done seven. And then I wish I’d asked, do you have like a white people versus like Indian people scale that I can like get in on? Cause I, [00:33:50] Jeff: example of, of totally useless, um, data definition. [00:33:55] Brett: right. Um, I’ve been really into hot [00:33:58] Jeff: six? Are you kidding me? [00:34:00] Like, you go up to six and six is not hot? That’s just a one, two, three [00:34:03] Spicy, Policitcal Digression [00:34:03] Brett: yeah, yeah. Um, I’ve been really into watching Hot Ones lately. [00:34:08] Christina: the Hot Ones. [00:34:08] Brett: It’s, it’s so great. If you love celebrities and you want to see them sweat, it’s [00:34:13] Jeff: And if you love good interviews! [00:34:15] Christina: I was gonna say, he’s a remarkably good interviewer. Like, you know? [00:34:18] Brett: Yeah, um, I introduced my, we’ll call her my sister in law, I’m not married, but my, my girlfriend’s sister, um, I introduced her to it just last night and, and we had a blast watching, um, Anna Kendrick and LL Cool J. [00:34:35] Brett: Um, [00:34:36] Christina: You should, um, you should watch the SNL parody of Beyonce on [00:34:39] Brett: seen it, I’ve seen it. [00:34:40] Christina: really good. It’s so good. [00:34:42] Brett: um, but I watched so much of it that I was like, I wanna order these hot sauces and do this along with them. Um, so [00:34:50] Jeff: that a thing? Is that a thing, or is that your invention? [00:34:52] Brett: yeah, no, you can do that. Um, so I’ve been like, doing the wing challenge along with people and getting that [00:35:00] fuckin body buzz you get from Excessive heat. [00:35:04] Brett: Like I have the, I have the Last Stab XXX, which is like three versions of the X Pepper, which is the hot, hotter than ghost peppers. It’s, and I love it. Like I can eat, I can, I can drink that right out of the bottle. My spice tolerance is insane right now. [00:35:22] Jeff: Awesome. Christina, you just went into sports broadcaster mode, with that microphone all of a [00:35:26] Christina: I did. [00:35:27] Jeff: Yeah. [00:35:28] Christina: I know, I know. Well, I’m sitting on the floor to record this. And so I, um, so I’m just, yeah, wanting to make sure that it’s near my mouth. That’s all. [00:35:36] Jeff: I just learned, I don’t know if any of you listen to the Political Gapfest podcast, it’s one of the few [00:35:40] Christina: Yes, I have for years. I go on and off, but it’s probably my longest lasting podcast. Because it’s been on for almost 20 years. And I’ve [00:35:46] Jeff: I haven’t, I haven’t, oh yeah. I haven’t missed an episode in, I think, 10 years and, and it’s not even like I totally relate to everyone’s politics all the time. But anyway, for people that don’t know, it’s John Dickerson, who is just a very kind of like, [00:36:00] he may be sort of center, but he’s got such a heart and, and he’s got such an amazing way of talking about political conflict. [00:36:06] Jeff: And also he’s amazing at analogies and metaphors. And then you got David Plotz, who’s just like, kind of like, I mean, he’s the animal, the wild animal of the bunch of them. Like he’ll, he’s the most willing to say something that everyone else is like, what the fuck? And then you got Emily Bazlon, the, the New York times reporter. [00:36:22] Jeff: And, and she works at Yale law school. She’s yeah. So anyway, I just learned that Emily Bazlon in one of the podcasts, not only I knew she recorded in her closet every episode, but she records on her knees. In every episode. And apparently has in the entire, like 20 years, they’ve been a podcast. I was like, man, if I was on my knees, I couldn’t get up. [00:36:42] Christina: That’s nuts, because I used to always think, because it originally started, they were, they all worked for Slate. Now I don’t think any of [00:36:47] Jeff: none of them work for Slate. [00:36:48] Christina: But it is still Slate produced and Slate distributed. Um, but I thought they all worked out of, like, probably the Slate DC office is what I [00:36:55] Jeff: they used to. Yeah, they used to. Yeah. Yeah, they used to. Now they’re all over the place. I mean, I [00:37:00] think John [00:37:00] Christina: Oh yeah, no, I know, I know they all have a [00:37:01] Jeff: studio, [00:37:02] Christina: Exactly. John Dickerson’s in the CBS studios. David Plotz has his own empire of various things that he’s bought. And, and Emily with her, you know, uh, you know, distinguished Yale professor and, and New York Times Magazine, you [00:37:14] Jeff: they still act like they’re in a tiny sweaty studio together. I mean, I [00:37:17] Christina: They do. [00:37:18] Jeff: love that podcast [00:37:19] Christina: love that pod so much. And I love, again, like I love the, um, their cultural gab fest is one that they’ve had. That one’s had like a rotating thing of crews, but, but Dana Stevens has been with that, um, for a long time. But yeah, like I love that they are still all with it and they do it. There’s something comforting to me. [00:37:36] Christina: About the Political Gap Fest. Like, I just, I love it. [00:37:40] Jeff: It’s [00:37:41] Brett: Is it at all like Pod Save America? [00:37:43] Jeff: They’re such bros. And, and these three are, they are so different and none of them for me, I mean, they’re all just such wonderful personalities. And I’m never like, Oh, fuck, now he’s talking or she’s talking, you know, and with Pod Save America, I’m just like, I don’t want to listen to this guy [00:38:00] again. [00:38:00] Brett: All right. [00:38:00] Jeff: And I loved it. I mean, leading up to the Trump, like the [00:38:04] Christina: I used to like it and then I just got, [00:38:05] Jeff: I was obsessed. I was obsessed. Do you like it, Brad? I mean, we sat here shitting on [00:38:09] Brett: I have enjoyed it in the past. Um, I feel like their YouTube episodes are way too long for my attention span. Um, [00:38:19] Mental Health Corner, Part II [00:38:19] Brett: but anyway, last thing I’ll mention before. [00:38:21] Jeff: Yeah, sorry, . [00:38:22] Brett: Um, I have been a I’ve been officially diagnosed with PTSD, um, as a result of religious trauma, although that’s not part of the official diagnosis, and, and, like, technically it’s complex PTSD, which is PTSD that results from repeated, um, trauma, and not from a single role. [00:38:46] Brett: instance of trauma. Um, and, uh, I, it has been suggested that I do inpatient treatment for this PTSD because it kind of rules my life right [00:39:00] now. And, and I didn’t realize this until things were destabilized. Um, but like I said, inpatient treatment, there, I have some stigma around the idea. And also it just sounds like such a. [00:39:15] Brett: Dedication? That I’m not at a point yet where I’m eager to do that. Um, [00:39:23] Christina: I see, I understand both of those things. I mean, the stigma, I think, no matter what we all talk about, I mean, look, we are all open and honest about our issues, but there is always a stigma around those things, because, at least for me, I always hold up, I’m like, okay, well, there are, you know, people like me, and then there’s, like, legitimately fucking crazy people, and I don’t want to be one of those, like, legitimately fucking crazy people. [00:39:47] Christina: Um, and, [00:39:49] Brett: hour holds and, and suicide watches, and yeah. [00:39:53] Christina: and, and, you know, uh, acting deranged and, you know, seeing, um, hallucinations and, and doing all kinds of [00:40:00] shit, right? So, um, people who are, like, in a frequent state of psychiatric breaks. So I, I understand that aspect, that there’s a stigma involved. But I think the… I mean, I think the thing there is because you’ve, you’ve, you’ve done rehab, right? Right. So like, you understand that sometimes it’s not about anything with you. It’s like, okay, this is what I need to be able to take the time to focus on this. But I under, also understand from your point of view being like, okay, this seems like this would be so much work. And even though it’s work you need to do, it might not be a work that you are wanting to, like, [00:40:35] Brett: Like, I’m going, I’m going to two different therapists right now. I have a couple therapists, and I have a, a private therapist. And that seems like enough work to me. Like, I am… And I’m actually, I’m actually seeing my personal therapist twice a week right now. [00:40:52] Christina: Yeah. I mean, you’re doing a ton. I mean, I would ask two things. I would ask one, would this actually be that much more work? Because it, [00:41:00] I, I kind of feel like it wouldn’t [00:41:01] Jeff: that’s an interesting, that’s a great question. I would [00:41:03] Christina: I mean, I, I think one would be that, like, would it actually be that much more work, like emotionally and whatnot? Because I, I, now that you’ve talked about all the stuff you do, I kind of feel like it wouldn’t be. [00:41:11] Christina: But I think then the second question is, Is this something that right now, at this moment in your life, you think is important enough for you to be able to take a pause on everything else? That you have to go do this thing for however many weeks? [00:41:23] Brett: cause that’s the thing is like, this destabilization has brought up issues that I’m kind of desperate to deal with. Like, I kind of want these over, I kind of want these solved, I kind of want a way forward. So, the answer to that question is yes, I do think it’s worth… Taking a pause. And I think I would be more likely to consider an outpatient program, like an intensive outpatient program, um, where I had some time in between sessions, uh, to just live my life and maybe take the [00:42:00] time off of work, but, but be like actively daily working on some of these issues. [00:42:07] Christina: That might be, that might be like a good counter, like, like, middle ground because I know like for me when I was kind of, and I wasn’t at the point where a doctor was suggesting anything to me, I was just doing my usual thinking 10 steps ahead of every potential outcome thing, which is what I do, I was, Like, my, my big, like, I guess, fear, like, you know, concern about inpatient things is like, okay, I know that you need to focus on this, like, outpatient might be better, because I was like, look, I, I can understand that this needs to be focused on, but I also don’t want to be in a scenario where it feels like I’m in jail, like, I don’t ever want to go to any place where they’re like, oh, you can’t be on the internet, you can’t do whatever, like, fuck you, like, like, I, I, I’m not, you know, like, if I’m paying money for this, and I’m choosing to do this to better myself, if I’m not being held by the state, if I’m not being ordered By by, you know, the government, if it is not part of, like, my way to get out of jail, I’ll be goddamned if you tell me what I [00:43:00] can and can’t do, [00:43:00] Brett: As someone, as someone who has done that and has been in locked ward treatment programs, um, there is a certain, uh, relaxation that comes a couple days in when you realize you just no longer have the option to be on your phone, to be on the internet, to be involved in any way in your day to day circumstances, and you have been given the freedom to Just focus on the issue at hand. [00:43:30] Brett: Um, there’s a, there’s a relaxation that comes [00:43:33] Christina: Oh, I, I, I don’t doubt that. I think I would just want it to be my choice, right? Like, I would want it to be my choice to be, to say, I’m choosing not to talk about anything work wise, I’m choosing not to engage with anyone in my life, but if I want to relax and read An article on the internet or whatever, or watch videos on YouTube. [00:43:53] Christina: I can do that. I don’t wanna be, you know, deprived of, of those things. Or if I wanna talk to a [00:44:00] friend, you know, I don’t wanna be like deprived of that, which to me, that would be the things that I would have to look into personally. Like, I’m not speaking for you, but like, if I were ever to go in an inpatient thing, it’d be like, yeah, okay, so what are the restrictions? [00:44:10] Christina: Because if, if it’s gonna be like jail or like drug rehab, When I’m not a drug addict, and I’m not here by, you know, force of someone. No. [00:44:20] Brett: of my longer stints in rehab were entirely voluntary, um, which does make a difference because I’ve been in like 48 hour recovery centers that weren’t my choice, um, and that is That’s a total freakout, kind of like, yeah, uh, agency is paramount in that kind of break. [00:44:47] macOS Sonoma Celebrates Your Pain [00:44:47] Brett: But anyway, so, okay, next topic, and it doesn’t have to take long, but, uh, you guys were matching the balloons that were coming up in my avatar. [00:44:56] Brett: And this has been a thing because I do telehealth for [00:45:00] therapy, and I’m running Sonoma, and [00:45:03] Jeff: is what, I don’t even know what that [00:45:04] Brett: the latest macOS. [00:45:06] Jeff: Oh, duh. Oh man. I am out of touch. I used to watch all the events. [00:45:10] Brett: And, and like, it has this thing called reactions that apply to anywhere your video camera is used. So I would be in like a private portal for a therapy session, and I would be talking about trauma, and balloons would come up over the screen. [00:45:28] Jeff: some good AI. That’s some great AI, man. [00:45:30] Brett: and I still haven’t figured out what triggers it. Like, you guys saw it, but I wasn’t doing, I wasn’t making [00:45:35] Jeff: Let me just say that there were three points at which balloons came up and it was a super fucked up contrast. [00:45:41] Brett: Exactly. And, and you can imagine how thrown my therapists were as I’m talking about intense trauma. [00:45:50] Christina: what’s fucked up to me, like, I understand in FaceTime, why this would be active. Why are they putting this for any app that uses the fucking video API? Like, [00:46:00] that’s fucking [00:46:00] Brett: a very good question. And you can disable it, but you have to disable it one at a time for every app that uses your camera. So it can surprise you if you’re using like Teams for the first time, all of a sudden you have to go in and disable reactions there. Um. And there’s a bunch of reactions that are supposed to, like, you’re supposed to be able to make a thumbs up, and it shows a thumbs up on the screen, like a little emoji [00:46:27] Christina: Right. [00:46:28] Brett: of the thumbs up, and, like, I can’t actually trigger these on purpose. [00:46:34] Brett: And, and I, and it’s always accidental, and it’s always a surprise. [00:46:39] Jeff: I’m thinking about checking myself in for treatment, balloons. [00:46:44] Christina: Yeah, it’s like, [00:46:46] Jeff: Balloons. [00:46:47] Christina: my cat died, balloons, like, [00:46:50] Brett: Yeah. It’s very, [00:46:51] Jeff: 9 11 is funny now, balloons! [00:46:55] Christina: I mean, that would [00:46:55] Jeff: I have, I have, I want to pick up on that topic before we’re done, but, uh, I have some, uh, [00:47:00] it is actually funny, but it’s a different kind of funny. Okay. [00:47:03] Brett: Okay, that was all I had to say, is I think it’s a, it’s a weird future, feature that needs some smoothing out. Um, [00:47:12] Jeff: It’s just, that was generous! [00:47:14] Christina: it needs to not be enabled by default, and it needs to not be enabled on third party apps at all, like, [00:47:20] Brett: I agree. [00:47:22] Jeff: That’s definitely an opt in situation. [00:47:25] Brett: for sure. [00:47:26] Jeff: Opt in to balloons. I mean, the chaos monkey in me loves it. [00:47:31] Brett: because [00:47:31] Christina: Oh, me too. [00:47:32] Brett: when I, when it started [00:47:34] Christina: Oh my god, can you imagine the Jeffrey Toobin Zoom scenario with this? [00:47:37] Jeff: Yes! [00:47:38] Christina: Holy shit. They come in and not only do they see them whacking off, but they also see balloons everywhere. [00:47:44] Brett: the, uh, the, when it started happening, I did not know why. All I knew was in all of these conversations I was having video with people, uh, just randomly balloons were coming up. [00:48:00] No matter what app I was using, balloons were coming up. And it’s the only one I’ve ever actually triggered. It’s the balloons, [00:48:07] Jeff: what are some of the other options? I guess I should look [00:48:09] Brett: There’s like thumbs up, there’s smiley face, there’s like, I don’t know, you have video, you’re seeing people’s faces and their hands, like why do you need to emphasize that in any way? But when it’s [00:48:24] Christina: you have a [00:48:25] Jeff: have a theory, I have a theory. [00:48:26] Brett: When it started happening, though, I had no idea why, and it took me a while and some, some Mastodon posts to come down to, like, Oh, you can go up to the camera icon in the menu bar and disable reactions for each app. [00:48:41] Jeff: So, this could be the fault of Big Hot Air Balloon because when I search Sonoma Balloon, I get a lot of Sonoma County Hot Air Balloon [00:48:50] Christina: Ha ha ha. [00:48:52] Jeff: Those people got their fingers in this. Dirty little hot air balloon fingers. Oops. Ooh, episode title. [00:49:00] Uh. [00:49:01] Brett: uh, should we take a quick sponsor [00:49:02] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:49:04] Sponsor: Lackadaisical Attitudes [00:49:04] Brett: All right, this episode is brought to you by Lackadaisical Attitudes. Lackadaisical Attitudes is your podcast getting fewer sponsors than normal. Is your work giving you a smaller bonus than you’d hoped for? Try a Lackadaisical Attitude and just do your best to be interesting. [00:49:20] Brett: The sponsors will come back. The market will improve. In the meantime, a lackadaisical attitude can help you get better sleep, have more energy for the things you care about, and spend more time with your family or pets even if you don’t have enough money for them. Lackadaisical may also be sold under the brand names lazy, half hearted, laid back, or passive. [00:49:41] Brett: Side effects may include dizziness, explosive diarrhea, unexpected hair growth on the brain, and in rare cases, imaginary discharge. Thanks lackadaisical attitudes. [00:49:53] Jeff: Did you make this up? [00:49:54] Brett: Yeah, I just [00:49:55] Jeff: Oh, every once in a while you write a comedy sponsor [00:49:58] Christina: No, I love, I love, I [00:50:00] love that. Now I understand why you asked me something before the pod started. That’s a great sponsor. And also, you can take Lackadaisical Attitudes with GiveZeroFucks. And it’s a great combo. [00:50:11] Jeff: good. [00:50:12] Brett: Yep, that should have been in the read. [00:50:14] Jeff: Um. I wanna just… [00:50:16] Christina: known what you were doing, I would’ve like, helped you, like, punch it up. I would’ve like, helped you on this. Cause I’m, cause I also, [00:50:20] Brett: we should have workshopped this [00:50:22] Christina: we should’ve worked on it, I was gonna say, cause I have, I, I’m having a, I’ve had a big seeping heem, um, you know, spoonfuls of, of uh, lackadaisical attitudes as of late. [00:50:30] Christina: Fuckin love it. We [00:50:31] Dark humor out of collective trauma [00:50:31] Jeff: Um, I want to pick up on 9 11 and then probably we should just do Graftitude, huh? Um, so I, I had a bad habit for a long time. Anytime someone said, you know, uh, Oh, that will be like, if you’re setting an appointment together, how about 9 11? [00:50:49] Jeff: I would have to, I would either say or have to hold back, never forget. Um, and I recognize that that wasn’t. Really funny, but I also just want to say in terms of, of anything like that, [00:51:00] any mass trauma event being funny, it’s an exhale, right? It’s like a, because it wasn’t just that event. Like, so for me, two days later, there were so many flags up everywhere. [00:51:09] Jeff: And I was biking home from my job at the Newberry Library in Chicago, and a car came by me with a flag haphazardly Tape to the antenna. And that flag almost blinded me. It almost went straight into my eye. And I just remember thinking like, this is both funny, not funny right now. But like this, if, if it continues like this, we get to own some of this and say, this is absurd, right? [00:51:31] Jeff: So the tragedy of it, it’s not funny, but the like historical moment in which Clear Channel, my son just researched this. I didn’t even know the extent of this when Clear Channel sent out a list of songs that radio stations. They owned Could Not Play. That list of songs is bananas. [00:51:46] Jeff: My baby, she sent me a letter that was banned, um, because it had an airplane in it, right? Like. [00:51:53] Christina: Eat World had to rename their album Bleed American to Jimmy Eat World because Bleed American was like not, and it [00:52:00] happened to come out like on 9 11, so it was a whole thing, and they had to like rename the fucking album so that it could be released in stores. [00:52:07] Jeff: Yes. You know, if I’m, if I’m not mistaken, the hip hop group, The Coup, yeah, I’m confirming that now, had a record that was supposed to come out maybe on [00:52:16] Brett: Oh, that’s [00:52:17] Jeff: and, and it showed exploding World Trade Center. Um, And anyway, so it was an insane time and I think anyone who lived through it, um, has every right to exhale, to like blow off, like, I remember once, um, I was, I did a, I spent three days with a forensic anthropologist who’s basically developed the field of unearthing and examining bodies in mass graves, right? [00:52:41] Jeff: And, and I, he was showing me a picture from Guatemala where he was working and there was the families of the people that were being dug up or that they hoped would be in there were sitting in lawn chairs, eating ice cream at the edge of the grave. And one child had an ice cream cone and was kind of laughing. [00:52:54] Jeff: And I said, talk to me about this, this context. And he’s like, you know what? When you’re in a [00:53:00] situation like that, you actually have access to every human emotion, because you have so much of the hard stuff that people never experience, but you’re also human, and so there’s going to be boring moments, there’s going to be humorous moments. [00:53:11] Jeff: And, uh, and I think there’s something in that for this, but I just wanted to share a couple of stories about this. So… Uh, just like, but as part of my work, um, uh, organizing against the Iraq war in 2003, cause I’d been traveling back and forth and stuff, I was doing a, a tour, like I was traveling around the Southwest with my friend Raheem El Hajj, who’s a incredible oud player. [00:53:33] Jeff: He was actually jailed. In Saddam Hussein’s Iraq for writing protest music without lyrics, um, and was tortured the whole thing. Right. And so we were driving around the Southwest together, but at one point we got to go to Taos, New Mexico for a film festival that we were going to speak at. So basically what happened is like, I’d tell stories from Iraq. [00:53:51] Jeff: He we’d like go back and forth. He’d tell stories and then play a song. I’d tell stories. He tells stories. But it was awesome. And so, um, he, we [00:54:00] were at an airport to take a small like prop plane to, um, Taos up, but we were, we actually flew along the Rio Grande. [00:54:06] Jeff: It was amazing. And, uh, he had his oud case, which is a very, it’s a, it’s an unusual looking instrument if you’re from here. Um, and, and, and it has an unusual case, no matter where you are, it’s cause you can’t see it’s an instrument. And the security guys, we were checking in, it was a little airport thing, right? [00:54:21] Jeff: It was like, yeah. Okay, what is this? And he’s Iraqi, right at a time when Iraq is considered our enemy, you know, like whatever. And, uh, he’s like, what is this? And he’s like, well, it’s an oud. And he goes, don’t worry. I know how to fly a plane, but I don’t know how to land. [00:54:40] Christina: ha ha ha ha. [00:54:42] Jeff: I was like, holy shit, too soon, but amazing. [00:54:46] Jeff: And it wasn’t too soon because he His entire family and country was about to be destroyed because of a lie about September 11th. He gets to make whatever fucking jokes he [00:54:55] Brett: I feel like, I feel like having a sense of humor takes, [00:55:00] um, some bite out of trauma. Um, I mean, I feel like the entire comedy industry is full of people full of trauma who have learned to laugh at their own… [00:55:11] Christina: Totally. Well, cops. You know, gallows humor. You know, you will never find people who make, like, more, like, fucked up, but, like, pretty fucking funny jokes than, like, police officers. Because they’ve seen some shit. And, [00:55:21] Jeff: I mean, and I want to just I want to asterisk for all the shit about police. But yes, they see every shitty thing every day. No, no, I know. And that’s fine. I just had to explicit it. Not because you were doing anything I felt like was wrong. [00:55:34] Brett: We had to explicit [00:55:35] Jeff: Okay, but let me just here’s another one. And this is more about Coloring in, um, the story of 9 11 and, and some of its victims, and I don’t speak for anybody except this, except to describe this one amazing person. [00:55:48] Jeff: So I was working for like a, you know, peace organization or whatever, right? After 9 11. And we helped to organize, um, a delegation of people who had lost loved ones. in the World Trainsetter Attacks, [00:56:00] who wanted to go to Afghanistan, um, and, and make the point that this is not what we wanted, right? Like, um, and one of them was this woman, I’m not even going to say her name because, but she was like in her, um, early seventies and her, I don’t know if you remember this story, but there was a guy who, um, died because he was trying to help someone in a wheelchair get down. [00:56:19] Jeff: And, and this was her brother. And, um, And so she’s, you know, this isn’t, this is, by the way, is only, it’s not even a year after 9 11, right? And, and so she wants to take that grief, but also say, fuck you, you can’t have it, um, to, to kind of destroy Afghanistan. And, uh, so she goes to Afghanistan and she, when she comes back, she comes to our apartment where we also ran our organization out of. [00:56:43] Jeff: And she’s sitting and having coffee with us. And I was like, so tell me like what, tell me something about the trip. She’s like, I got to fire an RPG. And I was like, wait, [00:56:52] Christina: yeah. [00:56:53] Jeff: She’s like, yeah, it was somebody, one of these guys had an RPG and there was like an old, like a destroyed car. And he’s like, do you want to shoot the car? [00:57:00] I was like, fuck yeah, I want to shoot the car. And so like here, this is what I love about humans. It’s like, they were on an honest to God, like peace activist mission, but she’s like, yeah, which is what I would like. Fuck yeah. If, if I had, if I was actually offered to shoot an RPG, hell yes. [00:57:17] Christina: Agreed, I’ve never shot a gun, I’ve never wanted to fire a gun, but if somebody offered me, like, the chance to, like, blow up a tank or something, like, fuck yeah! [00:57:24] Jeff: So just [00:57:24] Christina: if I know no one’s, I know no one’s gonna get hurt, I know, like, what, like, absolutely. [00:57:28] Jeff: yes, [00:57:29] Christina: why not? [00:57:29] Jeff: There had to be, yeah, there had to be moments of levity like that because it was such a, it was first a national trauma and then it was a national absurdity, um, while, while people were [00:57:39] Christina: While still being a [00:57:40] Jeff: trauma. Yeah. Like clearly, [00:57:41] Christina: an absurdity while it was a trauma, and then it became, like, uh, yeah, it became used for these other things. Lies told by the people, you know, um, uh, propagated by the press, you know, to, to sell these things that didn’t happen. Uh, this is funny. Judy fucking Miller is an idiot. And this is how I know that she’s an actual fuckin moron. [00:58:00] I was in the green room with her, uh, not the green room, I was in the makeup room with her at [00:58:03] Jeff: we’ll say something lying ass New York Times reporter that basically assisted in a way in making the case to [00:58:09] Christina: The only good thing about her was that she did go to jail, rather than giving out the sources. I will give Judy credit for that. Well done. But, she fucking sucks. But, I was, I was, we were both in the makeup room at Fox. I was going on one channel, she was going on the other. Bitch didn’t know how to do copy paste on her iPhone. [00:58:27] Jeff: Oh. Nice. [00:58:28] Christina: had to, I had to show her how to copy and paste something on her iPhone, and, and I did, mostly so I could tell the story that I had to show Judy Miller in like 2013, 20, no, like 2014, 2014, I had to show Judy Miller how to copy paste on her iPhone. [00:58:42] Brett: a writer, all [00:58:43] Jeff: the New York Times reporter at the [00:58:44] Christina: she’s one of the most famous journalists, like, yeah, she like went to jail rather than giving up a Scooter Libby. [00:58:50] Brett: okay, [00:58:51] Jeff: I mean, you don’t go to jail rather than giving up someone named Scooter. [00:58:55] Brett: right. [00:58:55] Jeff: You just don’t. And I had a big brother type named Scooter, but, and I [00:59:00] would go to jail for him. But, um, that’s amazing. Wow. Yeah, what a time. I mean, and just to like, be clear that if anybody’s doubting we understand the gravity, I was, um, I lost nobody. [00:59:12] Jeff: I was in, um, I was on the Lower East Side a week after the, uh, a week after September 11th, and I will never forget, there was nobody, and the walls were covered, and everything was, every surface was covered in missing person, um, flyers, and I, and that haunts me. Haunts me. That was a week after though. [00:59:32] Jeff: That was when driving from Chicago to New York. It was incredible because it was this like parade of construction workers heading to help, right? Like, despite health risks, despite everything, that was a moment to be [00:59:44] Christina: Everybody, everybody, everybody came together. 100%. And then it turned into this, and then it, it turned into this, you know, like, uh, jingoism, you know, like, other thing against the wrong fucking people. But I digress. Um, not, not that like Saddam didn’t have [01:00:00] plenty of reasons to be against him, but like not under these reasons, like it was such, so, yeah. [01:00:04] Christina: Uh, [01:00:05] Brett: I just thought of the perfect episode title that I absolutely will not use. 9 [01:00:09] Christina: Okay, tell us. [01:00:10] Brett: 11 is a joke in your town. [01:00:13] Jeff: Oh my god! Wow! Yeah, I was just gonna say, how’s that not happen, but exactly the reason you’re not gonna name it is why that [01:00:21] Christina: love it. I love it. But no, it can’t happen, unfortunately. That’s some always, that’s some always sunny shit. And uh, and even they might be like, eh, I don’t know. And they’ll do anything. [01:00:32] Jeff: And also, just to end this, I just, a little paradigm shift, um, it wasn’t the three thousand who died on 9 11, it’s the hundreds of thousands who died alongside those three thousand in the response, and I don’t think, I don’t think anybody who can’t accept that is, is, is truly in touch with their brain and heart. [01:00:52] Jeff: Anyway, uh, [01:00:53] Christina: But also, but also, but also the George Bush, like, reaction memes where you’re saying like, you know, [01:01:00] Ariana Grande is dating Spongebob, like, and it’s, you know, somebody whispering into his ear, [01:01:05] Jeff: Yeah, that’s right. [01:01:05] Christina: My Pet Goat. That’s fucking funny. That’s fucking funny. [01:01:09] Jeff: That was something. [01:01:10] Brett: this would be an awesome time to lead into a sponsor, but we don’t have [01:01:13] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. [01:01:15] Christina: It would. If you do want to sponsor us, because we find things like 9 11 funny, um, you can, uh, contact us at, uh, sponsors at, at overtiredpod. com, um, or, or contact us other ways, but yeah, please sponsor [01:01:27] Jeff: for listening to our season finale. [01:01:30] Christina: Absolutely. [01:01:31] Grapptitude [01:01:31] Jeff: Series finale. Um, all right, should we do Graptitude? Just for like a totally bizarre shift? Tweetbot, [01:01:39] Brett: I can kick it off. [01:01:40] Christina: You kick it off. [01:01:41] Brett: Alright, I’m picking Ivory. Um, from the people who brought you TweetBot, the, what was formerly TweetBot, right, we all love TweetBot. We all, we all used to love Twitter. [01:01:53] Jeff: miss you. I still have it installed [01:01:55] Brett: I’m sorry, X. Um, Yeah, no, I, [01:02:00] I also, I also cringe at the thought of actually saying X. Um, it’s so stupid! But, anyway, Macedon has become my new home. [01:02:12] Brett: Um, I’m on Threads, I’m on Blue Sky, I’m not on T2, cause… I don’t care. Um, and uh, Macedon, like I accumulated a critical mass of followers and following uh, that it is interesting to me daily in the same way that Twitter used to be. Um, and Ivory is my client of choice. Uh, Tweetbot creators, Tapbot created Ivory and uh, if you have a Tweetbot subscription I don’t know if they’re still doing it, but it would allow you to, uh, switch your subscription over to Ivory, um, and support them in that way, uh, [01:03:00] which I gladly did, and I’m running Ivory on Mac and iOS, and I love it. [01:03:07] Christina: Yeah, it’s a great app. Um, my, um, Twitter, uh, my TweetBot subscription ended, like, my yearly one, like, was right at the time that basically they had to shut down, so there might have been, like, 14 cents or something. That was remaining, but it was one of those things where I was just able to not have the, you know, subscription renew and it wasn’t a big deal. [01:03:28] Christina: So it hadn’t like renewed for another year or anything. So I was fortunate about that. But then I, of course, immediately did like the 2499 or whatever the thing is, you know, to, to be able to support them, get the Mac app and the iOS app. And, um, uh, they’re, they’re great people. It’s a great app. Um, I’ve been spending a lot more time on, on Mastodon as well. [01:03:46] Christina: I haven’t been on any social media for the last few weeks. That’s been sort of a choice. Might talk about it at another time. Um, but, uh, when I do, like, I, I definitely, I… There are parts of Mastodon that I definitely, um, like to [01:04:00] dunk on. There was a person who genuinely, this was not a joke, and then had like very long conversations with people afterwards that I desperately wanted to dunk on and now the moment has passed, who very earnestly said that if you call Twitter, Twitter, and not X, that that’s this, that’s akin to deadnaming. [01:04:19] Christina: And, um, [01:04:20] Brett: fuck [01:04:20] Christina: and, and, and that, exactly. And that’s the sort of, that’s the sort of Tumblr, like, internet eating your brains. That’s the sort of 2014 Tumblr bullshit that I love and I adore. But I also really want to dunk on, like, And, and the only thing is, like, 2014 Tumblr, you’d have those unhinged stuff and you could absolutely dunk on them and nobody would come at you. [01:04:39] Christina: There are some of my Mastodon followers who would be like, You’re punching down, you’re being mean. I don’t care, honestly, if you’re that unhinged, if you’re that dumb, like, I feel like we should all be able to call you out on being a fucking psycho. But, um, I do love moments like that on Mastodon, I’m like, never change, you, you weirdo, like, far too left to be actually useful, like, [01:05:00] fuckers, um, it’s, it’s akin to deadnaming, um, for that reason alone, I’m never gonna call Twitter [01:05:06] Jeff: Wait, what is deadnaming? I don’t know. I feel so [01:05:09] Brett: It’s when you call someone who’s transitioned genders by their old name. [01:05:15] Jeff: Oh, Jesus. Okay. Yes. I know this phenomenon. I did not realize it was called that name. [01:05:19] Brett: Which is a ridiculous comparison to renaming a corporate brand. [01:05:24] Jeff: Yes, [01:05:24] Christina: and on every level, it’s, they’re like, oh, this is respecting this and that. I’m like, okay, there’s [01:05:29] Brett: Respect for whom? [01:05:31] Christina: exactly. And then, and then, then, uh, like you, like, this person, like, they got into like, maybe I’ll actually put the, put the thread, um, of this in the show notes, because it was truly remarkable. [01:05:41] Christina: They got into like, yeah, A lot of people had, like, very good faith conversations with this person, who, again, was not shitposting, was being completely earnest and honest about this. Like, they thought through a lot of things and were just very committed to this. And it wasn’t a bit. If this had been a bit and they were committed to it, I would have found it hilarious. [01:05:56] Christina: But they weren’t. This is not a bit. This is actually genuine. And I’m, like, [01:06:00] horrified, but also sort of obsessed. Anyway, um, Ivory’s great. Love it. [01:06:07] Jeff: Awesome. Oh, Jeff. Um, last week, uh, Jay and, and prior to that, Christina had mentioned the ARC browser. Um, and, and I finally gave it a shot because I do, I, well, I’ll just say like, I’m repeating, but I also want to talk about it one particular feature. Um, it is, who’d have thought that you could be awesome. Utterly stimulated, even overstimulated, by the reimagining of the browser. And, and that is what happened to me. And I, and I’m still, you know, part, so I have this like really hard balance, which is, it’s so much fun to play with it that the part of me that tries to tweak everything and then doesn’t get shit done. [01:06:48] Jeff: is, is like, is really activated, especially with this feature I want to talk about, which is so cool, but which I have to keep my hands off of, which is Boost, which allows you to basically, I mean, you [01:07:00] can customize how a site looks in like developer mode on any browser, right? But it allows you to kind of save your customizations so that you can change any website. [01:07:08] Jeff: In any way you need to, um, and leave it that way for anytime you go to it. And so doing that almost killed me. Cause the first thing I wanted to do was change Hacker News, which someone has done, you can use their boost, but I was like, Oh my God, my first thought was like Hacker News, like I can make it bigger so I can read it, I can take it. [01:07:24] Jeff: So the part that I love in there that isn’t unhealthy for me is inside of these. This boost functionality are zaps and with zaps, you can basically highlight any type of element on the page and you can just say, I don’t want to see this. You don’t want to see that one, or you don’t want to see all elements like it. [01:07:38] Jeff: And that is so fun to play with because you can really simplify sites. I did that with Hacker News for sure. I, I zapped a ton of data under each link. Cause I just don’t, I don’t engage at that level. I don’t care that it’s being voted up or how many times I get it. It’s on the homepage. Right. Um, And I had so much fun and I really think I should probably block out some time for myself to just, [01:08:00] without guilt or shame, play with ARK, but nice work fucking re imagining the browser, my god, it’s like re imagining the bed, it’s like, what the fuck? [01:08:10] Christina: No, I, I And, and I love the, I love the workspaces stuff. Like that’s where I can also lose like a shitload of time by just like customizing every workspace for all the little features and things that I want. Like this is what model I’m in, which for me works a lot better than profiles. Um, Because I have a million browser windows open always. [01:08:27] Christina: But if I have, you know, certain things, yeah, I really like Arc and I haven’t played, I haven’t played with the boost stuff because I didn’t know what it did. To be honest, I didn’t look into it. And now this is going to be a thing that I look into and play [01:08:39] Jeff: it’s so fun, um. [01:08:41] Christina: it. [01:08:42] Jeff: Alright. [01:08:43] Christina: All right, my pick, and I don’t think I’ve ever given this one before, but it’s called Lossless Cut, and it is a kind of a front end for ffmpeg for editing like mp4 or other sorts of files losslessly. [01:08:58] Christina: So like if you needed to cut [01:09:00] out like 20 minutes at the beginning of a video or 20 minutes in the middle, you could use QuickTime for that. And QuickTime Pro, RIP, QuickTime 7 Pro. Used to be even better, where if you needed to do, and again, I don’t want to open up my NLE, I don’t want to open up, you know, Final Cut or Premiere or whatever, I’m wanting to do this losslessly, I don’t want to have to re encode, I’m just needing to move like the, you know, trims a certain part of it. [01:09:24] Christina: I can do a lot of this in QuickTime, but I can’t do, like, More hyper specific things, or if I want to like combine a cut where I’m like, okay, I’m going to, you know, grab these two parts out, but then I’m going to keep the rest of it. Um, Lossless, uh, cut lets you do that. The interface is not great. It’s, this is open source. [01:09:41] Christina: Um, it’s available for all platforms. I think that it’s written in some sort of either Python thing or in, um, you know, it’s, it’s not written in kind of a native thing. So the interface… It’s not great. I don’t care. It gets the job done. It’s free. This is like the sort of good open source software shit that [01:10:00] I’m glad exists and that, you know, um, I, I do wish that maybe like a, a, a, a good like Mac designer, um, um, uh, you know, coder would step in and, and help with this. [01:10:13] Christina: Um, it’s kind of like, it’s better than Colibri, which is, It’s a fucking monstrosity of a piece of software, but also necessary. And so I’m grateful for that guy, but I’m also like, God, this is a piece of shit. But I’m also like, but there’s nothing else and you’ve done all this work for free. So thank you for this, you know, book, e reader software. [01:10:32] Christina: It’s better than that. But like. That’s a low bar. Um, but this is, this is my pick of the week because I needed to do some stuff where again I did not want to have to transcode. I did not want to have to re encode. Which when I take things into my NLE I have to, and even with, you know, M1 processors, M1 maxes, like, that takes time to, you know, export those files. [01:10:54] Christina: And it’s stupid if you’re literally just taking something from the middle or taking something from the top or [01:11:00] bottom. So, [01:11:01] Jeff: Yeah. [01:11:02] Christina: Lossless Cut is, uh, is my pick. [01:11:04] Jeff: It looks awesome. Wow. Um, cool. I’m gonna play with that. Uh, just a final word. Um, school’s starting up, or it has in some places, and I just wanna salute all you teachers out there. Cause holy shit. Thank you. Especially if you’re good. Hehehe. [01:11:23] Brett: I saw a really interesting video on… Um, Christian homeschool parents who made the decision to send their kid to public school and like the top reasons that like led them to trust public schools even though like a lot of far right Christian churches are very… I’m scared of public schools, uh, convinced that they are factories of the devil for churning out atheist children. [01:11:58] Brett: Um, if I [01:12:00] can find that video, I’ll link it, [01:12:01] Jeff: Okay. [01:12:03] Brett: but yes, it was in support of, of teachers and our hardworking, especially public school teachers who, who, uh, are doing their best to raise up smart, critically thinking children. [01:12:19] Jeff: And the private school teachers who bust their asses well sometimes. And maybe get paid [01:12:24] Brett: No, [01:12:25] Christina: Uh, no, they usually get paid worse, actually. They actually usually get paid worse. [01:12:28] Brett: no shade on [01:12:29] Jeff: yes, the public school, I mean, just to say, like, my sons are going into their school that has no air conditioning, it’s gonna be almost a hundred all week next week, we were in there to see his classes. Last week, each teacher has about six industrial sized fans, um, so public school teachers, it’s different. [01:12:45] Jeff: I see that. It’s different. And thank you. Extra thank you because you are in the trenches. [01:12:52] Brett: All right. [01:12:53] Jeff: Awesome. Get some sleep, teachers. [01:12:55] Brett: to see you. [01:12:56] Christina: you. Good seeing all of you. [01:12:57] Brett: Get some sleep. [01:12:58] Jeff: Get some sleep. [01:12:59] Christina: Get some sleep, [01:13:00] everybody.

Jay Miller joins Brett and Jeff to talk mental health, espresso machines, and, of course, our picks for Grapptitude this week. Sponsor Show Links Internal Family Systems No Bad Parts Prince – Discog Dive Living Colour Cult of Personality Curio Arc Browser Synology DS App/Synology Routers Sublime Text VS Code Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript More Mental Health, But With Jay Miller This Time [00:00:00] Jay: Hey all you cool cats, parakeets, llamas, and alpacas, you’re listening to Overtired. Uh, I am your overtaking host, Jay Miller, and with me are my beautiful co host Jeff Severance Gunsel, and the mad genius of the internet himself, Brett Terpstra. [00:00:19] Jeff: How did you get ahold of our demographic, uh, report? [00:00:22] Jay: Oh, I mean, you know, if you listen to one podcast, you listen to all of [00:00:25] Jeff: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Hi, Jay. [00:00:29] Jay: Hey! [00:00:30] Jeff: And we do not have Christina here today, although we’re committed to doing this exact same guest lineup with Christina sometime down the [00:00:38] Brett: we will repeat this, um, and apologies to our regular listeners, we took, we took some unintended time off, um, life got in the way, but we also weren’t beholden to any sponsors at the time, so we gave ourselves a break, and, and literally [00:01:00] took a break, so [00:01:01] Jeff: Which was lovely for me, because I came back from a family trip to Egypt and Kenya, and then had a colonoscopy, and then had oral surgery, and then got sick. And so, it’s awesome to have a break in that context. [00:01:12] Brett: that sounds, that sounds like it was a much needed break. [00:01:15] Jay: I was jealous when you said Kenya and Egypt, and then you jumped straight into colonoscopy, and I was like, well, [00:01:22] Jeff: what? I deliberately scheduled it for the week I got back, because I’m like, I’m gonna be so out of it anyhow that I might as well just hit myself with all the stuff. Um, and I did. Yeah. Great. [00:01:34] Brett: I haven’t, I, so yesterday I had two root canals and two crowns. [00:01:39] Jeff: what, yesterday you had two root canals? What’s going on with that? [00:01:44] Brett: well, [00:01:44] Jeff: that a thing? [00:01:46] Brett: yes, apparently so, because it happened to me, um, I had, I had a filling fallout in a back molar and I, I scheduled like, it, it wasn’t hurting me, so the dentist like scheduled me a couple months [00:02:00] out, and in the meantime, decay started happening between the broken filling and the tooth next to it, so I had this like, spot of decay that covered two teeth. [00:02:10] Brett: And in order to fill it, they would have had to drill into the nerves, which is, I guess, when you do a root canal. And so I had a bunch of scans done. I even got a second opinion because that sounded excessive to me. Um, but they’re like, yep, you’re going to need two root canals and then you’ll have to crown them and it’s going to cost you about five grand. [00:02:32] Brett: And so, and then, so I went in to have it done and I had a brand new dentist that I had never seen before and he gave me a total of 13 shots of Novocaine and it didn’t take. It didn’t take. He would start drilling and I would scream. Like, it did nothing to me. And I blame a combination of hallucinogens and Vyvanse.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Jeff: I’m serious, I’ve learned that because I’m a hard one to get to and I finally found a dentist who’s like, well, here’s what I had to do to make it work, he calls it like the, Winer esque it technique, and uh, I think the needle pretty much went through my cheek. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think the needle went through my cheek, literally I think it did, but, but it was the first time it was ever perfect on the second try. [00:03:20] Brett: I, yeah, it, it did not take, it did not stick. So yesterday I didn’t take any Vyvanse or any of my other medicinal, uh, drugs. And, um, they gave me a, uh, oral sedative that put me in like a semi conscious state. [00:03:40] Jeff: sedative. [00:03:42] Brett: Like you, they like, they grounded up and put it under my tongue and like [00:03:47] Jeff: is this dentist? [00:03:49] Brett: let it, I let it dissolve. [00:03:51] Brett: And then I went into this like very woozy trance-like state, and I was like [00:04:00] aware of what they were doing, but none of it hurt. And, and I had like memory loss when I came out of [00:04:07] Jeff: you, have you yelped this guy? Cause, [00:04:11] Jay: where you at? [00:04:12] Jeff: yeah, come on. [00:04:13] Brett: basically, basically they’re [00:04:15] Jeff: no sponsors. [00:04:17] Brett: If, uh, if, uh, if Novocaine doesn’t take, we have to do… It’s basically somewhere in between Novocaine and, like, IV type. Anesthesia, and so it’s like, uh, a midway anesthesia that doesn’t require any needles, which I assume also doesn’t require any special licensing. [00:04:38] Jeff: Welcome to the dental health corner. Ah, can I just say, can I just say at the end of this, can I say at the end of this, my cousin who lives out in the suburbs, um, I went to visit him for the first time ever and realized he’s in the scary suburbs, like the, like, um, I, I drove by a house first that had like a giant sign that said, um, that said taxidermy outside. [00:04:59] Jeff: And [00:05:00] apparently sometimes there are bears curing out there. And then next to him was a yard that had recently inflated balloons that are apparently refreshed and like a big sculpture of an, of a green alien and all this stuff. And then I got to his house. And I’m like, what’s the deal with those two? Like, I was hoping they’re, they’re friends or whatever. [00:05:18] Jeff: He’s like, Oh, they’re totally friends. He’s like, but you know, I was, I, he had two teeth pulled because of an infection in the front of his mouth and he was in so much pain and he was talking to the neighbor with the aliens and the neighbor offered him heroin. And I told him, I said, like, I mean, which makes sense, right? [00:05:32] Jeff: In a certain way, I guess. I’ve never used heroin, but here’s the thing. The taxidermy guy, it’s rumored, goes out in his backyard with night vision goggles and his AR 15, and in the night, and apparently with a silencer, which I don’t think is a thing for everybody, and shoots deer. And I told my cousin, I’m like, you know, half of our family won’t come to the city, won’t come to Minneapolis anymore, ever since like the uprising and the police decided to just say, fuck all of you. [00:05:58] Jeff: And I’m like, this [00:06:00] is scary. Like, my neighborhood is not scary. Anyway. [00:06:04] Jay: I thought it was weird, we just moved cross country, and we moved to like, We’re on the city, like, border between one town and the next, and the next town over, uh, it was interesting when people were like, Oh, hey, you’re moving to the place where it’s illegal to not own a firearm. [00:06:22] Jeff: Right, right. [00:06:23] Jay: I had to like, I had to like, pause and think about that for a second. [00:06:26] Jay: I was like, wait a minute, you said not? Like, yeah, not, you have, you have to be back, like, Open carry permits, like, Happy quinceañera, here’s a Glock, like, I don’t, [00:06:39] Jeff: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, how’s that going for you? [00:06:42] Jay: You know, guns aside, I guess, um, You know, it’s, it’s been good. Um, I, I guess for, for some context, I’ve moved to the Atlanta area. Um, my family lives about two hours South of Atlanta. The other half of my family lives, uh, [00:07:00] two hours North of Atlanta. And then like some weird third contingency lives on the Southeast of us. [00:07:06] Jay: So it’s. It’s kind of nice being close enough to family that like, they can’t just come in when they want to, but they can still show up. Like, they can, you know, call and be like, hey, what are you doing this weekend? Let’s, you know, let’s hang out. Like, that’s been pretty cool. Um, [00:07:23] Jeff: And you moved into the Atlanta area from where? [00:07:25] Jay: San Diego. [00:07:26] Jeff: Whoa, San Diego. Wow. [00:07:28] Jay: the land, I mean, I paid taxes for no rain and it rained like, For the first three months this year, I knew it was time to go. [00:07:34] Jeff: Yeah, San Diego, and I haven’t been there since the 90s, but it was like the land of the peacoat back then, like the navy, like, long blue coat. [00:07:41] Jay: It’s, it still is. [00:07:42] Jeff: I think I got a peacoat there, actually. [00:07:44] Jay: I mean, that’s, that’s how I got there was through the Marine Corps. I got stationed there and my wife’s from LA and we were just like, this is nice. We’ll just stay here and do that thing for a little bit. [00:07:53] Jeff: I love it. [00:07:54] Jay: But all in all, I mean, the weather’s nice. We have AC for the first time, you know, I feel like people [00:08:00] really underestimate the power of central air, like it’s life changing. [00:08:05] Jeff: is life [00:08:06] Jay: My electric bill is probably gonna be life changing too when I get it, [00:08:09] Jeff: It, yes. [00:08:10] Jay: it is what it is. [00:08:11] Brett: I have one window unit to cool the entire house. [00:08:14] Jeff: Oh man. [00:08:15] Brett: we, we just don’t have, it would, it would take an entire retrofit to fit central air in here. So we have one window unit in my bedroom that cools the entire house. And it’s not ideal, but in Minnesota, in the summer, it’s a necessity. We survive. [00:08:34] Jeff: When I was a kid, my dad had a window unit just in his room, and the rest of the house was just like sweltering. And so I’d have to like sneak in there when he wasn’t in there and just like bring a book or something. It’s unfair, dad. Yeah. You could have put one in my room. There’s no reason you couldn’t have done that. [00:08:51] Mental Health Corner [00:08:51] Jeff: Anyway. Uh, hi! Let’s do our, so we’ve done Dental Health Corner. Yeah. Uh, that’s a great segue into Mental Health Corner, I can’t think of any other rhymes.[00:09:00] [00:09:00] Brett: I say we go with [00:09:01] Jeff: Compartmental Health Corner? Sorry, I’ll just stop. I’ll stop. I’ll stop. It’s dumb. [00:09:09] Brett: Well guess first. I know Jay has some stuff to talk about. [00:09:13] Jay’s Mental Health Corner [00:09:13] Jay: Ah, so there’s kind of like these, these like, two weird feelings, like again, the whole moving cross country, uprooting everything, spending tens of thousands of dollars to go from like, one time zone to another, cause… It sucks if you try to do it any cheaper than that. And then, like, and then still coming out okay has left me with this sense of like, have, did I finally make it? [00:09:41] Jay: Like, Am I in a position in, like, for the first time in, like, my family’s history where you can sit there and drop a bunch of money at one time and not be worried about what’s going to happen to you? Like, am I going to have to, like, donate plasma for the next year or something like that? And it’s like, I’m [00:10:00] good. [00:10:01] Jay: And that has been this weird eye opening, like, I’m bougie now, like, I am, I feel the, the middle class crust, like, hitting my skin, but there’s this other side of that, that, you know, I’m sure, I’m sure Brett In all of our fancy tech job glory, we keep hearing about all the AI stuff. And like, I’m not an AI skeptic. [00:10:28] Jay: I’m also not an AI evangelist. Like, [00:10:31] Brett: I read your last post on that. [00:10:33] Jay: yeah, like, I feel this constant tug from my employer to be like, you have to preach the gospel of AI. And I’m just like, I don’t want to do that. So now I’m like struggling with this depression of like everywhere I go, I just keep hearing it screamed in my ear and I’m like, no, I don’t want to listen. [00:10:51] Jay: I don’t want to listen to like, it’s like, but I also want to protect that level of financial security that I’ve reached [00:11:00] and what that’s brought me is. Uh, my favorite type of depression, uh, which is impulse buying mode, um, I just bought an espresso machine. [00:11:11] Jeff: Mmm. Mm [00:11:12] Brett: therapy. [00:11:12] Jeff: hmm. Well, you work in tech Wait, can I ask you, what’s the context that you are now facing the bougie situation that you’re describing? [00:11:21] Jay: I mean, it’s, it’s [00:11:22] Jeff: it a job that suddenly [00:11:24] Jay: uh, well, I got my, my bonus, um, and then I also had to sell a bunch of stock and that left me with like tens of thousands of dollars left over from the tens of thousands of dollars that I had and was like, whoa, wait, what’s happening? I thought. Everything was going to be miserable. [00:11:44] Jay: Like, I’m sure the IRS is going to slap me in the face later, but like, I don’t, for the moment, I’m just like, Hey, I can spend a thousand dollars on espresso machine stuff and Hey, I can buy baseball season tickets, you [00:12:00] know, for my favorite baseball team next year. And like, I can do all of this stuff that. As a kid, you’d have been like, Oh, hey, cool. I have a small cafe in my house now with beans from single origin farms from Ethiopia. Like I look in the mirror and I’m like, who is this person? I don’t, I don’t, I don’t recognize you over, you know, the sound of your smugness. [00:12:24] Brett: Did it work? Did you cure your depression? [00:12:28] Jay: Um, I have another 200 worth of stuff that I just ordered from Amazon. So, but I need it. The house is empty. I need to fill it. Like it’s, so it’s. It’s just that weird, it’s this very weird state of like, all of this could go away in a heartbeat if I refuse to not preach AI. But at the same time, like, I just don’t want to do it. [00:12:53] Jay: And like, that’s just the worst feeling ever. But also like, the constant [00:13:00] reminder of how good life is right now. And if you just like shut up, close your eyes, take your medicine and like do the thing you don’t want to do, you could probably ensure that for, you know, a few more years until the next thing comes up that you don’t want to do. [00:13:16] Brett: When I, when I left AOL Tech, it was because, like, things had gotten, like, it was, it was a very similar predicament. I was being asked to do things that I didn’t really want to do, and my passive income was such that I was making My salary, again, from like apps and, and blog sponsors and things like that. [00:13:42] Brett: And I thought I could live with half the money and just, you know, do my own thing and not have to, you know, for example, write posts about AI. Um, and it went very poorly for me. I would not recommend, I [00:14:00] would never recommend if you have a cushy corporate gig. You know, don’t sell your soul, but, but [00:14:09] Jay: would argue I’ve done that already. [00:14:11] Brett: but also don’t fail. [00:14:13] Brett: Yeah, [00:14:14] Jay: Yeah. And that’s kind of the interesting point is I feel like right now I’m mostly just Just verbally echoing, like, look, you, you want me in my element, like, you want me talking about the things that I, like, I’m, I’m building templates for like the, the Microsoft Learn ecosystem for all of the Python stuff and the end result is hopefully we’ll be managing. [00:14:41] Jay: 20 or 30 different examples using one repo, one code base. We make one update and put in like propagated out to all of our samples. Like this is some cool stuff that I’m doing. And then all of a sudden they’re like, yeah, we need you to present this to the executive leadership team, by the way. Is there any way you can [00:15:00] sprinkle some AI in there? [00:15:01] Jay: And [00:15:01] Jeff: Oh, that’s it. That’s the thing, huh? You gotta sprinkle it. You got to sprinkle it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So compulsive spending, but you have the money. Uh, is that what you’re saying or no? Is it like, I’m not trying to be flip about it. I’m, [00:15:17] Jay: it’s, you know, I’m, I’m a parent. I have a house that we just bought. That’s, you know, it was made in the nineties, which makes, I mean, that doesn’t sound like a long time ago, but apparently all the inspectors think like, Hey, you should probably tuck some money away for when water heaters decide to explode or something. [00:15:36] Jay: So like, there’s this moment of like. Responsible me, like always cautious of the next time that you’ll have nothing again, is like, you should really be putting all this money away and not touching any of it. And then I look and it’s like, yeah, but I don’t have the right color glasses to go with the other glasses in the cafe area. [00:15:58] Jay: So like, what, what do [00:16:00] you do? [00:16:02] Jeff: that’s awesome. So what did you do? [00:16:04] Jay: Uh, I mean, I bought [00:16:05] Jeff: got the right, yeah, yeah. You have to come correct. I mean. You’re around people. I don’t, I’ve never around people. [00:16:12] Jay: and, and to be fair, this is, this is stuff that I’ve looked at and I’ve said, like, I, I, yeah, right, I’m, I’m probably never going to have these things. And now it’s like I have them and I’m like, this is pretty cool. Like I’ve, I’m probably over caffeinated just, I’ve, I’ve had like seven espresso, like double espresso shots in the last, like, two days. [00:16:32] Jay: It’s, you know, it’s. It’s great and I’m learning a lot and I’m learning about things that I want to learn about. I’ve talked about taking like whiskey sommelier courses and like getting Glencairn, uh, you know, Glencairn glasses and things like that. And I understand that this is like. The utmost privileged stuff like people that I grew up with don’t like they’re like whiskey like like Jack Daniels [00:17:00] is like the Highest level of whiskey you can get for them. [00:17:03] Jay: Maybe some black label and they’re like, whoa [00:17:06] Jeff: Southern Comfort? [00:17:07] Jay: yeah, I mean so like when when you’re able to go and have these experiences when you’re able to go and like do stuff and and there’s really not Anyone in your immediate circle that you can kind of relate to or that you can, you know, talk to about these things and they go, Oh yeah, you know, I’ve totally run into that problem. [00:17:28] Jay: It feels so bad. Like it’s like one of the shittiest feelings ever where you’re just like, I under, like, I’ve become that person that people looked at and was like, Oh, I hate that guy. And you know, it’s, It’s a weird feeling, but I also understand it’s like I’m just getting the things that I’ve always wanted to get or that I’ve wanted to get for the past few years. [00:17:50] Jay: So it’s like, wow, I have, do I hate who I’ve become or who I’ve aspired to become? And honestly, I’d like, no, I’m still the same, like [00:18:00] radical, like. You can, you can’t see my love black people like you love black coffee sign, you know, behind me. But like, I still have that, like, I’m going to stand up for people. [00:18:10] Jay: I’m going to try to get them hired. I’m going to try to elevate their lifestyles, their careers and all that stuff. I’m still that same person. I’m just that person with a nice handbag. [00:18:19] Jeff: And that’s also the person, you’re also the person you want in that space. And if you can then also, because of that, get things that are beautiful to you, great. [00:18:29] Jay: yeah, [00:18:31] Brett: Yeah. No, it’s tough. I, um, I will say that. Like I grew up being very much an activist, being very much an anarchist. And when I started making money, um, I felt very out of place going to rallies. I felt out of place, um, going to activist meetings and I kind of stopped. Like I felt like. Oh, I’m not allowed, like, I’m not allowed to be an [00:19:00] activist anymore. [00:19:01] Brett: Um, and that’s been, that’s been years that I’ve, I’ve felt that way. I know what you’re talking about. [00:19:07] Jay: yeah. I mean, I think the, the, Not to prolong the discussion on it, but like one of the big reasons we moved to Atlanta was like, I’m, I’m in a biracial relationship. My daughter is mixed. We grew up in a, you know, she’s grown up to this point in the area that is predominantly white. And, um, you know, And it’s like, that’s, it’s cool. [00:19:29] Jay: She’s getting a multitude of cultures around her, but she’s not experiencing. Oh, I guess. Oh yeah. For the people who’d never met me. Hi, I’m Jay. I’m black. Um, that, that’s a thing. Some people can’t tell when I talk. Um, so like, I was like, you know, cool. We’re going to Atlanta. There’s like. A ton of black people here. [00:19:46] Jay: There’s a ton of successful, like, there’s the black culture here is different than any other place in the world, in my opinion. And then we enroll her into like a private preschool and it’s like, I don’t [00:20:00] mean granted that was all because. She wouldn’t be starting school this year in California. So, like, we got there, they’re like, Hey, school started last week, you gotta enroll your kid. [00:20:10] Jay: By the way, because of her age thing, she’s still in pre K, but it’s too late to sign up for pre K, so she’s gonna miss a year, but we wanted her to get friends. So then it’s like, well, there’s this, like, private school around the corner that you can send her to, and all of her friends will go to the same school for the next ten years, and you’re like, I guess we’re doing that, but in the end, I’m like, okay, great. [00:20:32] Jay: I’ve just taken her out of this like public school system and away from that culture, uh, in some ways that I, we moved here in part for her to experience. [00:20:41] Brett: Yeah. [00:20:42] Jeff: Well, I mean, I also, hearing you talk and thinking about some friends who’ve been in a similar position, I just feel like maybe we’re, this is oversimplifying, maybe we’re entering an era where wealth isn’t just for the assholes. Um, which is kind of nice, right? [00:20:56] Jay: Nice people can have nice [00:20:58] Jeff: Nice people can have nice things. Yeah. Cause I [00:21:00] grew up similar way. [00:21:00] Jeff: Like we did not like grew up in apartments and for the most part. And, um, you know, like tax refund time was when we spent money. Like my mom was just like, it’s coming. And, uh, [00:21:11] Jay: tax tax free weekends? [00:21:13] Jeff: And that’s when we would just like spend all the money. And then the rest of the year, it was fairly tight. And I’m also in a situation right now. [00:21:19] Jeff: I’m not making a bazillion dollars, but I’m definitely making more money than a kid with no high school diploma ever expected he would. Um, And, and have nice machines and have nice things in my house. And I really, I, I just, I relate to that so much. And there’s also a part of me that resonates, something you said resonates where it was like, I actually realized late, I’m like, Oh, we’re not like exactly middle class or like working the middle class anymore, or like somewhere in like middle upper, if you’re talking about class and I have been such a reflexive class person my whole life that it took me a minute to figure that out. [00:21:54] Jeff: And I was like, Hey, you should examine that. Like you just kind of let yourself kind of float into this [00:22:00] new tax bracket and, uh, and forgot to, um, revise some of your, some of your class reflexes. But anyway, I don’t know if that, I hope that didn’t feel like too far astray from what you’re [00:22:15] Jay: Nah, I think that hits the nail on the head, you know. [00:22:19] Jeff: Yeah. And another bit, which I, we talked about after my trip, but like, my wife is like a credit card miles hacker, like a genius. And we ended up in business class, my whole family. And that was like a serious thing. Because like, every time I board a plane, I’m like, these motherfuckers won’t even look me in the eye. [00:22:35] Jeff: And there I was sitting and I’m like, I’m just gonna look at my champagne glass. And I was like, wow, how quickly I became the other thing. And maybe it’s not quite so binary. [00:22:44] Jay: Oh, the, the previous Overtired episode where it was like, everyone has experienced business slash first class and I was like, this was me last year, this was me flying to Ireland last year, where they were like, Mr. Miller, would you like a glass of Prosecco? And I was like, I didn’t, I [00:23:00] didn’t tell you what my name was, I appreciate this. [00:23:07] Jeff: Yes, yes, [00:23:11] Brett: Okay. Anything else, Jay? [00:23:13] Jay: No, um, I’m tired of talking about myself now. [00:23:17] Brett: I understand. I [00:23:19] Jeff: says the podcaster. [00:23:22] Jeff’s Mental Health Corner [00:23:22] Brett: Uh, Jeff, you got a mental health coroner? [00:23:25] Jeff: Yeah, kind of, um, so I just mentioned I didn’t graduate from high school, and I was, I was two credits short, and I, I went to a really rich high school, um, We’re like, kids drove Mercedes and stuff, and I, I drove my beloved 1984, uh, Cutlass Sierra, Powder Blue, Bad Brain sticker on the back, uh, and, and like, uh, felt really alienated from that culture, because it was an alienating culture, um, and, uh, And so anyway, I didn’t graduate, um, and then I refused to, uh, find my way to the [00:24:00] paperwork, um, worked in a lot of warehouses and dishwashing until a mentor, like, pulled me into a whole new life that led to everything after that. [00:24:09] Jeff: But anyway, um, My 30th class reunion came up and I’ve, I’ve never gone to one. I don’t keep in touch with almost anybody. I made the mistake early Facebook days of letting some alums in. And then I realized you have to be a cold blooded killer about that. Um, and you have to not worry about the fact that they’re writing you and saying, what the fuck? [00:24:27] Jeff: I requested it, you know, you’re like, we weren’t friends. I, I do not want you in my world. Um, so I’ve had this like extremely sort of adversarial thing about that school, about my classmates. It’s, and it’s been, uh, something I’ve worked on hard in therapy because I was holding on so much anger. My wife was finally like, this doesn’t make exactly make sense. [00:24:46] Jeff: Cause you’re happy. You have a great life. Like, why does this thing still like live inside of you? So, so kind of white hot. So I started doing some work in therapy, which resulted in me. Considering my [00:25:00] 30th anniversary when an old friend, my friend, Laura, um, from high school was like, come on, we’ll be each other’s like emotional support people when she like laid out exactly the perfect thing that, and it’s what I’ve done at parties forever, which is, she’s like, we’re going to, we’re going to go to a corner table and we’re going to post up in that corner and we’re not going to mingle. [00:25:18] Jeff: Uh, we might make trips to the bar, uh, but then we’re going to be back in the corner and then we’re going to just hope for some surprises, some pleasant surprises, couple of people roll up. It feels good. That’s all we need. We go home, hopefully not Retraumatized, . And, uh, and so we did that. We actually recruited one other person into the, into the scheme. [00:25:36] Jeff: And, and I, I decided to go to this thing. Um, and, uh, when I got there, I had forgotten my ticket. I didn’t have a, a, a, a diploma and I was the only person without a name. Despite paying 60 fucking dollars to go to this thing, and this, this woman who had been a girl when we were in high school who was managing everything, and I remembered but didn’t remember me, she’s looking, Gunsel, Gunsel, Gunsel, doesn’t [00:26:00] remember me, she’s like, I’m so sorry, you know, I’m like, you know what, this is actually perfect. [00:26:03] Jeff: In my head, I’m like, I’m undocumented here. Like, I don’t have a diploma, I don’t have a ticket, I don’t have a name tag. I don’t look anything like I looked in high school because I had like a baby face with beautiful long hair. Um, and so I am basically like, I realized like there were years ago when I told someone the only way I want to go to my reunion is if I could be invisible and anonymous and sit in a corner and observe, right? [00:26:23] Jeff: And that’s exactly what happened. I went into a corner. I had no name tag. Nobody recognized me. Um, and I could just take it all in and then I could decide who I wished would be. at the table with me. And, and then my friend Laura would go and summons them. It was her idea. She’s like, who, who should we see? [00:26:42] Jeff: I’m like, go get Wilcox. So she brings this guy to the table. Or like, there was one guy, I didn’t even know who he was. I’m like, he looks very kind. Let’s bring him to the table. You know, and it was like, it was such an interesting way to do the, Reunion, which was otherwise really hot and people were super drunk and we had committed we’re just gonna sit here and drink San Pellegrino [00:27:00] all night long and sweat and, and bring some people over and that ended up being such a wonderful thing to me and, and the mental health part of this is like, you know, when something is traumatizing, which that school was to me, um, and to my friend and to the person we also pulled in, we all had this in common, um, Trauma, uh, exists in my head and in people I’ve talked to as like frozen pictures, right? [00:27:25] Jeff: Like, almost like a slideshow of pictures that never change. Um, and, and you’re looking at them and it’s flipping through the slideshow like over and over and over. And what this thing allowed me to do… was have new pictures that just kind of, I could even feel displacing the other pictures. So I had a new picture of myself, um, as like a person who like, despite all of my worry about being like lonely for the rest of my life when I was in high school or like not knowing how to get to the thing I felt like could be true about my life. [00:27:59] Jeff: [00:28:00] Um, and seeing all the other people that had been making the apparent right decisions that I had not quite made. I just thought, For me, it’s not going to be good. And, um. And it is good. And, and I got to sit there and just be present in that. Like I made a lot of, I did a lot of work on that before I went, like that day. [00:28:18] Jeff: I’m like, don’t go as the kid that hated these fuckers. Go as the like, man, which is something I still have a hard time applying to myself. Go as like the man who has a family who he loves, who loves him, who has a job that he loves, um, and is, and is appreciated at. And, um, yeah. Just go as that person and stay rooted as that person. [00:28:38] Jeff: And it worked. And, and afterwards, I just felt things falling away for days afterwards. I felt this like stuff falling away so much so that I was able to go into the Facebook group because I had been very anonymous at this thing. Right. I mean, I had to walk through people I remembered exactly, and I knew probably might’ve been a nice conversation, but I wasn’t there for it. [00:28:58] Jeff: I couldn’t do it. I had to be back [00:29:00] to the wall, see who comes up. And so, um, afterwards I was like, we had, we’ve lost 10. People in our class, um, a lot of women to cancer, uh, two of my friends to one alcohol related death, one an overdose, um, and I was really struck by that. And so, several days, or a couple days after this thing, I was still thinking about the people who had passed, and how like, this Facebook group for this class was just full of like, we should’ve rolled a J under the… [00:29:30] Jeff: Fucking bleachers, you know, it’s like, it’s just stupid shit. That was like, wait, we’re adults now. Do you remember that part of how we’ve 30 years has passed? Right. And you’re talking like when you were 18. Um, so I, I decided to like put myself out there and I, I created a post that basically just said like, Hey, I keep thinking about the people we’ve lost. [00:29:48] Jeff: Um, some of whom are friends, some of whom are people I just would have loved to seen at this reunion. How about we fill this thread with memories about these people, with pictures, maybe you want to address somebody directly, [00:30:00] like, maybe you just want to share a word that means something to you, but not to anybody else. [00:30:04] Jeff: And I started it by writing my own thing to the mother of a person who’d been a friend in high school who recently died, um, and I wrote directly to her because she was in this. Facebook group. Um, just as a message to her as like a little bit of witness from the shadows. Cause I’ve, I’ve, I’ve known mothers who have lost their children and that is a really, that is a special kind of grieving and loss that transcends almost anything. [00:30:30] Jeff: And there’s no word for it, right? You have a word for like a woman who’s lost her husband, but you don’t have a word for a mother who’s lost her child. Um, and so I just started with that. And then, man, That stuff just rolled in for, it still is, it’s like two weeks later and people are writing the most beautiful things. [00:30:46] Jeff: People that I thought of as not very thoughtful are writing the most thoughtful beautiful things, which is on me, right? Like, I didn’t think they were thoughtful. Um, and that too became just like part of like, I was like, I put myself out there. I was hiding in school. I wanted to be invisible, right? Like I hated my [00:31:00] body. [00:31:00] Jeff: I hated, I hated, uh, my presence. I was a big guy, like tall. And like, I felt like I was like, I had like body image issues that I don’t really understand now when I look back. Like whatever, it’s like, and uh, and so I put myself out there in a way I never wanted to in high school, and like, yeah, this beautiful thing happened. [00:31:16] Jeff: I’m like, okay, cool. I can sign out now and feel like I did the thing. [00:31:21] Jay: That feels very reminiscent to, um, you know, I’m, I’m kind of still, I’m, I’m removed enough from high school that it was like, I don’t ever want to see anyone from high school ever again, except for a few people. And it’s, it’s not, it’s more of just like, I don’t want to go back to where I was. when I was that age. [00:31:44] Jay: And so like you saying, you know, going there and bringing who you are now, not necessarily who you’re not trying to think about who you were back then was kind of interesting. And it makes, it makes me more think about the, the military side. Like, you know, I’m a Marine Corvette. It’s, it’ll [00:32:00] be 10 years this year, this coming month that I got out. [00:32:05] Jay: And there’s a part of me that’s like, Wow, like, I was brainwashed, you know, 15 years ago. Very different person, very different mindset, and I wonder how many of those people now are, you know, how have they grown? But then also, like, I know… I know of at least three people who aren’t there anymore or who, you know, just due to mental health issues that didn’t get looked at and didn’t, you know, they didn’t talk to somebody. [00:32:38] Jay: Um, and that’s something that I, you know, I take personally now when I talk to people who are veterans, I ask them, you know, straight up, just how’s your mental health going, um, because I don’t want to lose any more people like that. But I, I just think about high school and the military, both so much emotional, like trauma. [00:32:59] Jay: can [00:33:00] happen in those settings that I do think it’s hard to want to go back and, you know, do anything that reminds you of those times. But I do think that there might be some value kind of like you’re saying of like, Not looking at it as, this is how I was back then, but more of like, this is who I am now. [00:33:21] Jay: Which, I mean, of course, someone’s gonna hear me say something that I said when I was stupid and like, oh, now cancel J and like, you know, culture, culture nowadays, some people should be canceled for the things that they did when they were in high school and in the military. Uh, some people were just stupid. [00:33:35] Jeff: just stupid adolescents without fully developed brains. [00:33:38] Jay: it’s, it’s definitely hard to, you know, I, I can’t, there are definitely things that I did. I regret now that I think back to now like, oh wow, like I, I do hope no one ever, this isn’t an invitation to start going and digging through those crates. Like, please don’t. Um, but also like, [00:34:00] I think there might be some health in there too. [00:34:02] Jay: Like some, some healthy, um, benefits to it. [00:34:07] Jeff: Yeah. [00:34:07] Brett: Here’s, here’s what’s happened to me. Um, I went to my 20th high school reunion, um, mostly because I could show up in an Audi TT convertible and make everyone feel [00:34:22] Jeff: Alligator boots? [00:34:24] Brett: It didn’t, it didn’t matter. No one saw my car. Um, no one asked me like what I was doing, but the weird thing was. When I showed up, the girl who was handing out the nametags knew immediately who I was. [00:34:37] Brett: And I don’t remember many people from high school. And the whole night, like, girls were asking me to dance, guys were talking to me at the urinal, like jocks that I barely remembered were like, Hey Brett, what you been up to? And, and it was like, I realized that I was not the outcast I portrayed myself as. [00:34:59] Brett: Like, [00:35:00] I always felt completely alienated, and then I had a dinner more recently with my quote unquote best friends from high school, and immediately fell back into old patterns and immediately realized I didn’t matter to them. Like these were the people that I associated with, these were the people that were my crew, and they didn’t care. [00:35:26] Brett: How my life was going, they didn’t care. I, I barely got a word in edgewise. They all had a life together without me, and it felt exactly the way I felt all through high school. And it made me realize, holy shit, I was friends with the wrong people the whole time. And the people that I thought hated me actually thought I was great. [00:35:50] Brett: And the people that I thought were great actually hated me. [00:35:53] Jeff: did I hit myself? [00:35:55] Brett: Exactly. Exactly. [00:35:58] Jeff: I see. I’m the [00:36:00] one. [00:36:00] Brett: yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I see. I’m the problem. It’s me. [00:36:04] Jeff: Oh, you did it. Nice job. [00:36:06] Jay: there’s this, there’s this weird thing that happens where like, maybe it’s just a podcaster problem, I guess. But like my parasocial relationships. That have kind of bloomed into actual relationships, like friendships are way healthier than the like people that I grew up with, like those friendships, like I’m going to give him his flowers since, since he’s on the pod with us, but like chatting with Brett for the first time when I was like this stupid kid that was super into productivity and stuff, but then also wanted to learn how to program and Brett was doing some really cool shit. [00:36:44] Jay: And I was like, I want to be like that when I grow up. And then, and then like actually like meeting Brett a few, like, was it, was it last year or was it the year before last at MaxTalk? [00:36:56] Brett: Mac sucked last year. Yeah. [00:36:58] Jay: Yeah. And it was like this moment where [00:37:00] like, we had talked and like, we had had conversations before, but it felt like it was like. [00:37:06] Jay: It’s a like 99% parasocial relationship and then just meeting and being like wow He really is as cool as he was like on the tin like it like it was it was is the the actual in print like the in presence was Exactly what I hoped for where that had not been the case for so many people in the past like and and I understand that kind of like you were saying it was I first learned of Brett, I was super like inbox zero productivity, like I want to meet all these people and I met so many of them and I was like, they’re all kind of douchebags. [00:37:48] Jay: Like, and I mean, granted, some of them are really cool, but there are a lot of them that I was just like, you were nowhere near as cool as I thought you were. And then [00:38:00] like, I met Brett and Brett was just like. What’s up? Nice to meet you. Like, like, [00:38:05] Jeff: Unpack, Unpack Nowhere Near is cool. Say more about cool, like, break that word down. [00:38:11] Jay: you, okay, [00:38:12] Jeff: Kind? [00:38:14] Jay: this, this is where I, uh, I self promote. Um, I do a show called Conduit. It’s, it’s for, it’s a productivity show for people who hate productivity shows. Um, it, it is. It’s the idea that we all suck at this. We all understand that we suck at this, and we’re just trying to see if we can make it like two weeks at a time. [00:38:34] Jay: It’s more about accountability, like, hey, did you, you survived the last two weeks. Good job. Let’s, let’s keep it moving. And I think the more, the deeper and deeper I tried to dive into, like, let’s actually be productive. Like, let’s have productive lifestyles. I understood how, like, physically unhealthy that was, how mentally unhealthy that was at times, and then also the people trying [00:39:00] to teach you how to do this, that’s their job. [00:39:04] Jay: That’s not, like, that’s not, like, they don’t understand. I worked at a help desk and people were like, yeah, you should only check your email, like, once a day, and I’m like, if I do that, I get fired. [00:39:14] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. [00:39:15] Jay: So, so being able to, like, have, again, someone like Brett who is like, me building these things is often due to me disregarding some responsibilities, but also, this is where I’m at at the moment and this stuff is really cool and I just want to keep building it, like. [00:39:37] Jay: I related to that, but then also I was like, okay, where’s, where’s the but, where’s the like, as he says, as he hops into like a Bentley and then drives off, you know, into the distance smoking a cigar or something. And it was like, that part never came. It was still the like, punk rocker, like, let’s, let’s just talk, let’s like nerd out and talk about building stuff, which I [00:40:00] mean, that’s, that’s what made Bunch so cool for me. [00:40:02] Jay: It was like, This was, this was a thing that like, Hey, I know the person that built this. And then it was like, Hey, what if, what if you did this? And then like three days later, it was like, thanks. You, you threw me into another rabbit hole, but now this feature [00:40:16] Jeff: Yes, yes, yes, [00:40:17] Brett: You have, you have both had that [00:40:19] Jeff: Yeah, we have. [00:40:22] Jay: It’s, it’s cool seeing features that I’m like, I think I asked for that. [00:40:26] Jeff: Right, right. Totally. I, my thing, Brett and I have talked about this, maybe even on the podcast with, I went through a similar thing with the productivity people. I didn’t meet a lot of them, but I realized at some point, like, I think you must be dishonest because I’ve never met anybody who. is committed or loves or gets fired up by various productivity tools who then doesn’t fall apart, um, inside of them, uh, every so [00:40:55] Jay: advocates do you know? [00:40:58] Jeff: And I, you know, like, cause to me, the [00:41:00] experience of, um, returning or like building systems, which mine always fall apart, it’s like the important thing for me, and this True with my mental health as well, it’s like that I call myself back and, and in the case of like productivity tools, that’s me calling myself back to those systems. [00:41:19] Jeff: And for me, it’s an indicator of how like healthy I am at that moment. So things really fall apart. But as long as I’m always calling myself back to these tools that I’ve built or some new tool, even if I get lost in it at that time, it’s actually like a really good, really good sign. Although I also have to know that I’m going to quit. [00:41:38] Jay: We have this goofy thing where like every. Once every quarter we do a systems check because people see productivity on the tin and they’re always like what apps are you using? We’re like, we don’t really want to talk about that stuff, but we, we appease people once every three months. And, uh, one of the things that we’ve done is we always give what we’re doing a [00:42:00] name. [00:42:00] Jay: And it’s always just something that we make up. And I always use artists that I’m listening to at the moment. Like the first one was like the Silksonic method cause Silksonic had just come out. Then it was like the, the JD, the JD Beck and Domi paradox or something like that. And then like. The Thundercat system, like all this, all this fun stuff. [00:42:21] Jay: And like, there was something about it because you knew that it was going to change. You knew that you were giving it permission to adapt and you were stating that by just renaming the thing every time. You’re like, yeah, it’s kind of similar to this thing, but like, it’s different because I’m doing this and this and this instead of this. [00:42:39] Jay: So it’s kind of like this weird jazz break. So that’s why it’s like Thundercat, you know, cause Thundercat does these cool breaks and then I do these cool breaks and like, cool. Like, and, and in the end it’s supposed to be silly. [00:42:52] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:53] Jay: And I think that’s what, that’s what makes it like, that was the thing that I missed talking to, [00:43:00] you know, the, the business coat types that were just like, it’s always about ROI. [00:43:05] Jay: It’s all about lifestyle brand. It’s all about, it’s like all of these things. I’m like, I kind of just want to sit down with my espresso machine and like have fun and then look at my notebook and be like, do I have stuff to do today? Yeah. Okay. I guess I better do that [00:43:17] Jeff: Yeah. Right. Right? [00:43:19] Brett: I feel like someone needs to ask you what kind of espresso machine you got. [00:43:23] Jay: Uh, uh, Gaggia Classic Pro X, which is, I [00:43:27] Jeff: there was gonna be an X. There’s always an [00:43:29] Jay: yeah, it’s not the, I mean, it’s, it’s a 500 machine, uh, which in the world of espresso, people are like, oh, so you went to Walmart and [00:43:38] Jeff: Reasonable. Yeah. [00:43:39] Jay: it’s definitely, the thing I liked about it actually was that it’s, For espresso machines, it’s considered like the hacker’s espresso machine. [00:43:46] Jay: Like you have people who have like raspberry pies and arduinos attached to it for like temperature control. And like I had to replace springs to change my pressure output and I was like, yeah, this is, this is, this [00:44:00] is the right [00:44:00] Brett’s Mental Health Corner [00:44:00] Jeff: Mods. Brett, what’s your mental health corner check in? [00:44:05] Brett: speaking of, um, productivity people turning out to be as cool as they are in real life, um, I’ve met Berlin Man a couple of times and every time I’ve been blown away by how personable he is. And when I, I recently posted about kind of the CPTSD stuff I was going through and he reached out and called me on the phone and And it was, it was a great conversation and I fucking love Merlin. [00:44:36] Brett: He’s a, he’s a really good guy. Um, so, [00:44:40] Jay: scared Merlin. [00:44:42] Brett: oh yeah? [00:44:43] Jay: Yeah, we did a, I was in this podcast mentorship thing and they were like, do an episode on someone that you look up to. And I did one about Merlin and like, I messaged him and like relayed FM slack and was like, Hey. I don’t want to be weird, but like, I did this thing, like, [00:45:00] you don’t have to listen to it, it’s cool, but I’ve listened to a lot of your shows in the past, big inspiration, yadda yadda yadda, like, cool. [00:45:07] Jay: And then I, there was like this moment in like another episode where, um, he and Alex were talking about something and he was like, Should I listen to the thing? And I just, no, I was like, yeah, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve ruined any, uh, that first impression was terrible. I Merlin, if you hear this, I hope that we can, uh, one day be cool. [00:45:27] Brett: he’s a really good guy. I’m sure he would love you. Um, I have gotten into internal family systems. Have you guys heard of this? [00:45:37] Jeff: in it now. Yeah. It’s the root of my therapy. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:45:40] Brett: When I started with my new therapist and I told her about my religious trauma syndrome and, and my complex PTSD, she was like, we’re going to solve this with CBT, like cognitive behavioral therapy. [00:45:55] Brett: And, and I was like, okay, but I had read that CBT was the [00:46:00] wrong response to religious trauma syndrome. Um, but I didn’t have a better answer for her. And then a couple of people mentioned IFS, uh, Victor. [00:46:11] Brett: of the show, Victor Agreda, and, um, and my girlfriend had both, uh, pointed me towards IFS. So I bought the book, um, No Bad Parts. [00:46:23] Jeff: no bad parts. [00:46:24] Brett: Uh, by the guy who invented, uh, created IFS and I started reading it and immediately I was like, Oh my God, like this, this feels real. And it’s weird because it’s a little bit, the idea is that you have, um, A multitude of parts within you, some of which got frozen in time and are burdened with the idea of protecting you from whatever, at the point they were frozen, whatever they were protecting you from. [00:46:58] Brett: And it became [00:47:00] immediately obvious that there is a little kid in a three piece suit ready for Easter Sunday church who has a checklist of all the things that are going to send me to hell. And he has been doing his best to stop me from doing things that I grew up believing would send me to hell, but my adult self no longer believes that. [00:47:23] Brett: My adult self no longer believes it, but every time they come up, this kid tries to take like foreground and And tell me you can’t do this, you’ll burn in hell. Um, so he’s protecting me from death and hell. And, like, he was the first part that I discovered. And, and, like, the idea behind IFS is you, you talk to these parts. [00:47:48] Brett: And you thank them for their service. And you express gratitude and love and compassion. And you get them to let down their guard. And it seems… Like, it feels [00:48:00] to me, like, very woo, um, like the idea of talking to myself feels ridiculous, um, but I’m willing to try anything at this point, and, um, I honestly believe that IFS taps into you. [00:48:18] Brett: Like a very, like, like shadows on the wall understanding, a very platonic, what do you call something that’s Plato esque? Platonic? Um, like, [00:48:31] Jeff: it Plato esque. [00:48:32] Brett: Plato [00:48:32] Jeff: No one’s gonna beat you up for that [00:48:34] Brett: This idea that we have found a way to interact with a neuroscience that we don’t fully understand yet. Um, much like a lot of Freud’s, some of Freud’s, like theories were Proven to be neuroscience. [00:48:50] Brett: Oh, some of them were proven to be horribly [00:48:53] Jeff: were proven to be cocaine. [00:48:54] Brett: right? Um, and like, but like this idea that maybe this [00:49:00] IFS thing taps into something that we don’t understand from a neuroscience standpoint yet. Um, and maybe, maybe it’s a rudimentary way of accessing something a little bit more scientific. But for right now, it feels very real to me, and I’m actually making a lot of progress. [00:49:21] Brett: So I talked to my therapist about it, and she’s like, Yeah, I’ve done IFS. I, I, I think you might be on the right path. So instead of CBT, we’re going to approach my, my trauma with IFS and, and that feels more productive to me and I’m actually pretty excited about it. [00:49:41] Jeff: Yeah, and the part of IFS that helped me, which is actually exactly what helped me go to my reunion. Present is this idea, same thing about a part, like there’s a kid back there who is trying to protect himself from these people, um, because I wanted so bad just to [00:50:00] escape so I could start my life and there’s all kinds of other reasons I was protecting myself, but my therapist said something is like become like paradigmatic for me, like I’m always thinking about this, which is like, okay, so can you picture that kid right now? [00:50:12] Jeff: Right? Like, yeah, I can picture. Is there a way that you can Bring him forward into the future so that he can know, like, you’re safe from that now and whatever. And that idea of taking the parts and identifying them and then just being like, can you bring that one forward is like, that just, it hit me on such a deep level. [00:50:30] Brett: One of the things when you’re talking to your parts, one of the things you’re supposed to do is ask them how old they are and then tell them how old you are and the parts [00:50:41] Jeff: nice way to do that. [00:50:42] Brett: And the parts often act with surprise, like, holy shit, you made it to the age of 45, even though I’m stuck here at like six years [00:50:51] Jeff: Just so you know, six year old, I’m old as dirt now. [00:50:53] Brett: Yeah, right? Yeah, no, it’s been interesting. Speaking of high school though, I um, I [00:51:00] posted, I use my Facebook, if I’m gonna post random song lyrics, it’s to Facebook where I, I, it, I don’t know, I have a weird, a weird collection of friends, but I have always friended anyone from my high school who asks. I have always just accepted it, um, because I’ve realized that while I thought I might hate this person or I thought this person hated me, uh, the relationship might’ve been very different than I consciously believe it to have been. [00:51:32] Brett: Uh, so I posted just the line, not about to see your light. And. The kid, my first day when I moved to Winona, Minnesota, at the age of 12, um, I got pushed to my knees in the gravel by this kid, um, at the Winona Middle School. Uh, between the middle school and the library, he like shoved me down and I felt very… And [00:52:00] I developed a real hatred for this kid, um, who apparently doesn’t remember this incident at all. Um, but when I, when I wrote the line, not about to see your light, he responded with, um, if you want to find hell with me. And I was like, you are the last person that I expected to bond with over Danzig lyrics. [00:52:20] Brett: Like, I did not expect that. And, and like, in his mind, I think we were always cool. Uh, but in my mind, he was a horrible person who hated me and wanted to hurt me. And, and it’s just this weird… It’s, it’s weird being, being old enough to like look back on that stuff and maybe take it with a grain of salt and not feel as traumatized by it. [00:52:48] Brett: Anyway, [00:52:49] Jay: that that, uh, Casablanca quote of like, you know, but I think about you every day and it’s like, Oh, I’m sorry. I don’t think of you at all. [00:52:58] Brett: I love the, [00:53:00] in, uh, Leonard Cohen’s, um, Chelsea Hotel number two, when he’s like, that’s all I don’t think of you that often. Yeah. Um, anyway, we, we, this has been another mental health episode. We just filled up a full hour, [00:53:17] Jeff: Dental mental health. [00:53:18] Brett: dental mental health. Um, do you guys want to do, uh, Graftitude before we wrap up? [00:53:25] Jay: Sure. [00:53:27] Grapptitude [00:53:27] Brett: alright. Um, I’ll kick it off, is that cool? I, I believe I’ve picked this before, but it has been a forefront for me in the last couple weeks. Uh, Curio. Um, I don’t use it daily in my life, but when I have a project, I want to brainstorm and I want like all the tools necessary for brainstorming an idea. And in this case, uh, it does a really good job.[00:54:00] [00:54:00] Brett: If you save your Curio document to iCloud, you can share it with somebody and it does a really good job of handling stuff. So two people can share a document. Most recently, Elle and I started getting, started talking about getting, uh, partner tattoos, like couple’s tattoos. And, and we started brainstorming like, what would this be? [00:54:24] Brett: What would be meaningful? What would represent our partnership? What would, what would we not regret? You know, five years down the line and we started brainstorming and. In case you’re curious, what we ultimately decided, and we’re going to wait until some current, uh, upheaval is settled, but I have this brand that I did on my, [00:54:50] Jeff: see it. [00:54:51] Jay: It looks like the [00:54:51] Jeff: That’s okay, nobody can see it. Oh yeah, there we go. Looks like what? [00:54:54] Jay: It looks like the Debian logo. [00:54:55] Brett: it does, [00:54:56] Jeff: It’s a Debian brand. [00:54:57] Brett: it’s a spiral. I, I like, [00:55:00] I was in the midst of What was undiagnosed manic depression and, um, or I mean, bipolar depression. And, and I didn’t have any way out of it other than pain because I had just gotten out of rehab for the third time. I was clean and I didn’t have the drugs that had always medicated me. [00:55:22] Brett: Oh my God, this turned back into mental health corner. But I took [00:55:26] Jay: Skintle Health Corner. I [00:55:27] Brett: I [00:55:27] Jeff: oh! [00:55:28] Brett: I took a coat hanger and twisted it into a spiral, heated it up with a blowtorch, and just jammed it into my arm. And, and it worked. Like, it got me out of my head for a little while. And, and that took a while, but it healed. And to me, this brand on my arm represents… [00:55:48] Brett: Not only like the depth of despair, but also the healing and the transition out of it. And we talked about all kinds of different tattoos. I had elaborate designs where [00:56:00] a butterfly combined like an E and a B and And, like, none of it really struck home until Elle said, What if I got a white ink tattoo that matched your brand? [00:56:15] Brett: And I was like, holy shit, that would be, that’s like the most meaningful connection. So I could look at this brand and know that I wasn’t alone in it. And so we’re going to wait on it a bit. We’re going to get to a solid place before we really make a decision on it. But like, that was the end result and all thanks to Curio, my pick of the week. [00:56:41] Jay: That’s dope. Curio, use that as an ad and then sponsor, sponsor the podcast. [00:56:46] Jeff: Yeah. Jay, what do you got? Oh, sorry Brad, I [00:56:51] Brett: No, I was just going to say for anyone who doesn’t know Curio, it’s like, uh, an app where you, you have all these spaces that are like whiteboards and you can [00:57:00] drag images and emails and add text and outlines. And it has mind mapping built in and you can connect all of these things together. You can link between spaces and it has like a complete set of project management tools. [00:57:13] Brett: So you can add due dates to things and across multiple spaces and then get a list of like all of your to do items. Uh, between these spaces, it’s intensely, it’s extremely, uh, functional, like capable without feeling overwhelming, like you can just start using it. So that’s my, that’s my pitch for [00:57:35] Jeff: interrupt. And it is not the news app on Setapp [00:57:37] Brett: No, no, some, they stole that. [00:57:40] Jay: I knew, I knew I’d see, I was like, wait, is this the thing on setup? And I was like, oh wait, no, it’s different. [00:57:46] Jeff: Yeah. [00:57:47] Brett: Okay, Jay, what you got? [00:57:49] Jay: So has anyone promoted the Arc browser? [00:57:53] Brett: I don’t, yeah, [00:57:54] Jeff: Christina raised it. [00:57:56] Brett: Christina raised it and we had some guests [00:58:00] on at some point that was like a hundred percent into it. Like they had, I think it was Brian. Yeah, I think it was Brian had like, had like ditched all of their browsers for it, but tell us what you love and then I’ll tell you what I think. [00:58:15] Jay: It is my primary browser. I can’t say that I’ve ditched all other browsers. Like, I work for a company that makes a browser. I kind of have to use that one from time to time. Um, the thing about Arc Browser that I like is, never been the type, like, I have a pinboard account. Stuff gets stored there. I’d never go back to it. [00:58:38] Jay: Um, that’s just not where things go if I want to retrieve them in the future. That’s just where things go because I decided that they should go in there. It’s like a hall of fame for… [00:58:49] Brett: a, it’s a way to get them off your mind and feel, and feel like they’re secure. So you can have the whole mind like, mind like water, get things done kind of mentality. Yeah. [00:58:59] Jay: [00:59:00] exactly. Arc Browser is now the place where like, oh, I’m gonna need this again, like, and that, that’s what made it relevant for me because when I do things like podcasts, I know that there are like three or four things that I open and I, I open them with Bunch But I’m also going back and forth between them as I’m using them. [00:59:19] Jay: And the thing that, that made Arc Browser kind of stand out was like, for instance, we’re recording this right now in the browser. I have that browser window open. I have the notes side by side, like inside of a single window, which is absolutely like phenomenal. So I can do the same thing with like Discord, where I have You know, the Discord for our, for Conduit, plus our notes, um, unfortunately, I don’t do Zoom through the, well, probably, fortunately, I don’t do Zoom through the browser, so, like, that’s not in there, too, but it could be, um, but I, I do that with, with a lot of things now. [00:59:52] Jay: Google Meeting meets, like, you know, when people want to do stuff like that. I can, I can be working on a thing and have all of these things [01:00:00] spun up. Um, I did have a second one if, if Arc Browser, like Arc Browser is cool and I wanted to shout it out only because it’s publicly available [01:00:08] Brett: Yeah. I was going to say, like, it just became like widely publicly available. Give people some description of why they would want to use ARC. [01:00:17] Jay: Um, Arc, uh, I don’t think it, is it Mac only? Or [01:00:22] Brett: I don’t know. [01:00:23] Jay: Yeah, it is. I use it on a Mac, so. [01:00:26] Jeff: OS 12 and later. [01:00:27] Jay: Okay, so yeah, it’s a Mac only system. It is a browser that feels like a native experience. It has these really cool ideas of spaces where you can have a space dedicated to different things. Um, I will say, if you have ADHD, that’s not gonna last. [01:00:43] Jay: You’re just gonna throw stuff, and when one space gets too full, you just open up a new one and just keep going. Um, [01:00:49] Brett: but at the end of like by default, every 12 hours, um, all these open tabs you have get archived [01:00:57] Jay: they get [01:00:57] Jeff: Ooh. [01:00:58] Brett: when you open it up in the [01:01:00] morning, you, you’re left with your pin tabs, ones that you have consciously said, I’m going to need this again, and everything else just gets shuffled off, out of your way. [01:01:10] Jay: And, because it has a little command bar, you can actually go back to archived tabs. So if you just start typing, it’s going to be like, yo, you archived this. [01:01:18] Brett: Yeah. And so command T, instead of command T, uh, just opening a new tab, command T actually brings up a palette where you can easily navigate through all of the options, all of the commands and all of your open tabs. [01:01:32] Jay: Exactly. [01:01:33] Jeff: Wow. [01:01:35] Jay: So, yeah, that was, I mean, I just, like when I started using it, it was kind of like this, like, okay, that’s not going to be supported. It’s still in beta. I’m sure there’s going to be bugs. And like, for some reason, like I just never stopped using it, which to me is like a, I mean, like that was like me and DuckDuckGo, like. [01:01:54] Jay: Oh, I’m going to try this thing. And then I just never stopped trying it. And to me, that’s [01:02:00] like the indicator of an app that, that has kind of made its way into my system. [01:02:05] Brett: Totally. Yeah. [01:02:07] Jeff: That’s awesome. [01:02:08] Brett: You had it. [01:02:09] Jeff: just downloaded and signed up. [01:02:12] Brett: You have a second one? You want to throw in a second one? [01:02:14] Jay: The other one, only because it’s so weird, um, the Synology DS app, which. Like, I just bought Synology routers, and [01:02:26] Jeff: Oh, you got the routers. [01:02:28] Jay: the routers are so good, but the web interface for, you know, all the routing stuff feels very much like its own little ecosystem based on the Synology operating system, which is cool, but then, like, to be able to Look at all this stuff on my two routers that I have. [01:02:46] Jay: I have the 66, 000 AX and then the 5600 AX thing, um, and I have them in mesh mode, so, uh, when we moved, I was, I moved into an area that has fiber [01:03:00] and like, that was just exciting, but like, The thing that really got me was that you can actually set up a VPN on the router itself, which is great if you want to spoof like your location and have it spoof across all of the devices in the house so that, you know, all of a sudden you’re in Canada and you’re watching Canadian Netflix or whatever. [01:03:20] Jay: Um, but all of your TVs are doing that, not just your, your laptop, which is super cool. And the fact that it, the app is just so easy to use. It’s so easy to like, if it’s, it’s logical, which I don’t know how many like web interfaces people have gone to for routers, like that’s never the case. It’s like, I know exactly where I’m going. [01:03:43] Jay: I know exactly how to get there. I create these profiles. I have. An IoT network that was super easy to set up so all of my like home devices are on their own network That’s you know walled off from my computers And like I can do all of these things and not [01:04:00] feel like like I’m hacking into the matrix every time I’m trying to do It it’s like oh, no, this is simple add a new network You know go share this profile to a thing and you’re done [01:04:10] Brett: Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. Um, I use Archer, uh, routers right now and their web interface is, I would call it passable at best. Um, no, that makes me really curious about switching to Synology routers. [01:04:28] Jay: and the routers themselves are solid I mean, they’re expensive, but they’re solid. [01:04:33] Jeff: they are expensive, aren’t they? I’d like to try them. Um, so I, I am, I, I want to talk about, uh, a text editor that I’ve talked about before, which is Sublime Text, um, because I’ve been using it forever and ever and ever, but I actually just, I think that I, I don’t think there are that many people out there who aren’t coders who use text editors primarily for writing [01:05:00] and just straight text and manipulating text and whatever else it is. [01:05:04] Jeff: And I do a lot of work. I do a lot of like qualitative work where I’m working with like interview transcripts or documents that have been provided to me that I’m supposed to analyze or whatever else. I also obviously take a lot of notes and all that stuff. And I, I was just kind of, so I just went through a period of like incredible. [01:05:21] Jeff: Productivity, just in the sense that, like, things that have been blocked that I hadn’t been able to work on or finish for a couple of years have just, like, flowed, and what has facilitated that flow in large part is Sublime Text and just the text editor in general, um, because for all the obvious reasons that you both know, like, it’s also just like a lot of markdown, right? [01:05:41] Jeff: It’s like the amount of time I don’t spend fucking around with totally Um, inexplicable formatting issues or things kind of disappearing in weird ways or whatever it is. I know this is all fundamental text editor markdown stuff, but like, and I’ve been doing this for years and years, but I’ve never been working with so much [01:06:00] text at once. [01:06:01] Jeff: And I’m realizing just how freeing it is and how rare it is. No one on my team who works with the same kind of qualitative data, whatever, has ever even opened a text editor. Um, and you want so badly to show them, but they just, I’m, I’m the person that has so many little hacks and everyone’s like, Oh God, it’s another fucking Gunsel thing. [01:06:19] Jeff: They just like shut off. And, and I just want to be like, no, you don’t understand it’s our work. It makes our work so much easier. Um, so anyway, Sublime Text and I, and the thing is, and Brett and I have talked about this so much, it’s like, I love VS code and it is too much of a playground for me, um, and between, and Sublime and its package manager, um, is just. [01:06:42] Jeff: It’s the perfect thing of like giving me tools and giving me just enough playground. Like it doesn’t let me into the part where you can like climb up that weird thing and then bounce off the thing and then whatever. Like it just keeps me with the swings and, and I’m so grateful for that. Um, so anyway, I’m, I’m talking about text [01:07:00] editors more than anything as Graphitude cause I still go into VS code for things that [01:07:03] Brett: I really want to know how you tie this back to Fugazi though. [01:07:07] Jeff: Oh, I, in the show notes, I was like, that was such, it sounded so obnoxious. I decided not to go there, but I was like, Sublime Text is the Fugazi of text editors. And all I meant by that is, um, it’s a thing that has, has remained exactly as simple as it started. Right. And, and there’s like downsides to that with Fugazi and Ian McKay, like that shit got kind of frozen and annoying. [01:07:27] Jeff: But, um, but the idea is like, Like I was thinking about how Fugazi like always toured with like the most simple stage ever. Like there were like some white lights on the side that were theirs that, that went down on them so that you were never, um, at the mercy of the lighting person and all of their tricks, right? [01:07:43] Jeff: Like that’s the first thing I thought about with VS Code and Sublime. And again, I love VS Code actually. Um, and then also just like the Fugazi thing of like, the shows are always going to be 5. Like sometimes it feels like you’re getting 5 worth of some of the packages in Sublime Text or whatever, or like.[01:08:00] [01:08:00] Jeff: It also just feels like super reliable and simple. Um, yeah, it’s like, it’s unchanging, which is not something I value overall in tech or bands, but, uh, because Fugazi was as much like a business model as it was a band. Um, and because they stayed just so kind of like reliable and consistent. [01:08:17] Brett: But. But. I would say, like Fugazi, every album, if you are a hardcore [01:08:25] Jeff: album was better and more interesting and more layered than the last. [01:08:29] Brett: everyone was different. Everyone, every, every time they released an album, it, it illustrated growth, like they weren’t just putting out the same album over and over again. [01:08:41] Jeff: But the closest they got to VS Code was when they added a second drummer on the last tour. [01:08:46] Jay: See, when you started bringing in bands, when you mentioned VS Code, I immediately thought, this is like toe. People who are not into math rock are just like, what is going on? But once it clicks, you’re just like, oh, I’m doing this. I was, I [01:09:00] was going to ask you, have you ever, have you ever joined a Vim, Emacs? [01:09:05] Jay: Like I’m doing, I’m doing things with texts that your, your puny brain can’t comprehend, like comprehend. And like, to me. That’s where text editor love begins, is when you choose a side, light side, dark side. I’m not going to tell you which one it is, but like when you’re like, I just pushed five buttons and I changed this entire text file to do exactly what I want to do. [01:09:30] Jay: And I’m going to press the period and like, it’s going to do it again. Like there’s a moment there where you’re like, I can, I could launch, I could launch things. Like I could, I could do [01:09:41] Brett: clearly you’re clearly a vim guy [01:09:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:09:47] Brett: is immediately apparent. You can’t hide that you’re a vim guy. [01:09:51] Jeff: A couple of years ago, I went down the Emacs rabbit hole, specifically Doom Emacs, um, because why not add the Doom, uh, like [01:10:00] name and theme to Emacs. [01:10:01] Jay: of do me, Max. [01:10:02] Jeff: And it was like, and I was like, Oh no, this is incredible. But also it like, it, it pulled me in so hard. And I realized I was spending so much time, time trying to learn some really fundamental things that like I already knew how to do elsewhere that I was like, okay, you got to stop console. [01:10:15] Jeff: But I loved it. It appealed to a part of my brain so hard. [01:10:18] Brett: Yeah. [01:10:18] Jay: knew that I was married to Vim when I opened up VS code and immediately put it into Vim mode [01:10:24] Jeff: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. [01:10:25] Brett: guys do, do either of you use Xcode [01:10:29] Jeff: No. [01:10:30] Jay: No, I’ve [01:10:30] Brett: X Xcode in the last year? I think, um, added Vim mode to xcode editing and it. [01:10:38] Jay: Does it support your local VimRC? [01:10:40] Brett: No, [01:10:41] Jay: Oh, [01:10:42] Jeff: Why? [01:10:43] Brett: there’s no colon command line, but your basic navigation and insert and substitute and change commands all work. And [01:10:52] Jay: use colon. How do you, how do you save and quit? [01:10:57] Jeff: So I do, I have to say, if I’m taking sides, I do take the [01:11:00] vim side. But, um, yeah. [01:11:02] Brett: I think we can all agree. [01:11:04] Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. [01:11:05] Brett: All right. Um, Jay, do you have another 10 minutes? [01:11:10] Jay: I’ve always got time. [01:11:11] Brett: Because I am very curious to hear about Living Color from Jeff. [01:11:16] Jay: Absolutely. Me too, actually. [01:11:20] Jeff: Okay. So, um, 1987 on the edge of 1988, this band, living Color, all Black Rock Band releases an album called Vivid. Uh, with their single called Cult of Personality. Um, I am in 7th, 8th grade. Uh, I am just starting, I’ve just moved into a new school district that is pretty much all white. I had, I had grown up in a much more sort of mixed environment. [01:11:50] Jeff: Um, and… I was really alienated. I also liked some bad music because I was in seventh grade. Um, and Cult of Personality comes on. This, this, this song [01:12:00] and video, uh, captured me and captured a lot of America, although I don’t understand exactly why, because it was this, they actually radicalized me with this one song and video and then continued to throughout the songs and the albums. [01:12:12] Jeff: And so [01:12:13] Brett: catchy tune that [01:12:14] Jeff: It was a catchy as hell tune. It was on, it was on like Guitar Hero 3, right? Like, but the, the really incredible thing was that here was a band being, this video was being played on MTV like every 30 minutes. It starts with the words and voice of Malcolm X. It cuts to a Black girl watching television, and then into the song, where they are examining the idea of the cult of personality, and there are actually, there’s lines like, like Mussolini and Kennedy, I’m the cult of personality. [01:12:46] Jeff: Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi, I’m the cult of personality, right? Like, that’s some complex shit, right? They’re not… Saying the two are equal, but they’re raising this idea of, like, leaders and what does it mean? And, [01:13:00] and then there are these, there’s this whole line and there’s this line that says, when a leader speaks, a leader dies. [01:13:05] Jeff: And in the video, when they say a leader speaks, they show MLK’s face. When they say a leader dies, they show a row of white cops. Holding batons, right? Like again, 1988, right? This is not radical for black America, but for white America, extremely radical. Right. And on top of it, they are these incredible musicians. [01:13:25] Jeff: Like they come from avant, like jazz and like noise rock backgrounds. Um, and so. There are, there’s a guitar solo in that thing that like, I still, it still feels so ahead of its time that I can’t believe people weren’t just like, this is a great song with that fucking guitar solo. Jesus Christ. Right. Um, and so I loved that band. [01:13:46] Jeff: I saw them open for the Rolling Stones in 1988 and I really went for them. Um, I saw them play with Bad Brains at first Avenue in 1993. Um. By then they had released like three albums of [01:14:00] songs that like, I was radicalized by the second and third album, but the first album, the way that they talked about, um, white America versus black America very explicitly, the way they talked about experiencing racism and like a day to day, there was a song, Funny Vibe, and the lyrics were literally, no, I’m not going to rob you, no, I’m not going to beat you, no, I’m not going to rape you. [01:14:20] Jeff: Like this was the, these were the lyrics of the song and the video was on MTV and. And like, um, that was like so huge. I wrote them a letter in eighth grade, uh, because I was like so alive with what they were doing. So anyway, um, I kind of can’t believe looking back that that band, um, got away with being as, as radical as they were. [01:14:42] Jeff: I also am just maddened. By the fact that most people I talk to remember them because Corey Glover, the singer, wore like a bodyglove wetsuit, like Dayglo bodyglove wetsuit, like a shorts version, and like the, you know, sleeveless version, um, when he performed. And like, that’s notable. I mean, that’s a weird move [01:15:00] and, and probably super sweaty, but the fact that that’s what’s remembered is… [01:15:05] Jeff: It’s really tragic to me. So anyway, I went to see them last night and, and they were, they were opening for the band Extreme, uh, which the connection is there’s two total guitar heroes there, right? This guy, Nuno Bettencourt is like this insane guitarist, but Vernon Reed is like, uh, uh, like a trailblazing, uh, guitarist, right? [01:15:26] Jeff: Um, And I was like, so bummed because my tickets at Xtreme, they were the ones that said like, more than words. And also the song, Get the Funk Out, as in, if you don’t like what you see here, get the funk out. They were just such a stupid band. Gary Cherone, the singer became like a forgotten singer of Van Halen, uh, between like Sammy Hagar and when David Lee Roth joined the band again. [01:15:48] Jeff: It’s just like, it’s a yucky history. Um, and, and I, and so I get there, I’m already pissed off that I’ve got to like own an Xtreme ticket. I go there and on the marquee. Which is a big marquee. It says only extreme. [01:16:00] Like, it doesn’t say living color. There’s plenty of room for living color, right? And I’m not, you know, like, forget, I mean, there are all these ways in which they were historic. [01:16:07] Jeff: Their fucking bass player played on the message by, by Grandmaster Flash on the Furious Five. Like, this band is fucking history, right? Like, Vernon Reed, like, Changed guitar, like, there’s no Rage Against the Machine and Tom Morello without Vernon Reed. Tom Morello would say that, right? Like, they’re just like so important and they’re not on the fucking marquee. [01:16:26] Jeff: Um. [01:16:27] Jay: time I’d ever heard of Vernon Reed wasn’t from LivingColor cause. Cult of personality came out before I was born. Um, but it was on BET Jazz, [01:16:38] Jeff: Wow. [01:16:39] Jay: which was like, and I think he was doing like a cover of like, Greensleeves. So it’s just like, it’s these, these weird moments of just like, Oh, hey, who’s this? [01:16:48] Jay: Oh, wow. What other stuff have they done? Whoa. [01:16:50] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s awesome. And they were so versatile. Like last night, they did a cover of Nothing Compares to [01:17:00] You, and it was as much of a Prince tribute as anything. Um, and, uh, Pac Man. And so the craziest thing though, and then I’ll wrap here, is the cult of personality has this moment where he’s sort of like, suddenly breaks like a more flowing, like vocal style, and they’re just shouting, I’m the Cult. [01:17:19] Jeff: Of. Per. Son. Nality, right? And he didn’t sing it, but the entire crowd, which is almost all white, um, was literally throwing their hands and singing each one without the band singing, I. Am. The. Cult. And it was like the creepiest fucking thing I’ve ever seen. And… The last thing I’ll say about the weirdness of going to an extreme show where Living Color opens is I was in the merch line. [01:17:43] Jeff: First, this like, white, or this like white dude passes me with a Jackal shirt, which was like a hair metal band that the dude had like a chainsaw, and then a black dude passes me with an Elvin Jones shirt, and I was like, this is a fucking weird night. Anyway, but just like so many shout [01:18:00] outs to Living Color for educating me and, and giving me like a place for what I, like, helping to affirm all the shit that I felt like was wrong where I was, um, and also just forcing me to think in, like, very complex, dualistic ways as a young kid. [01:18:16] Jeff: A young white kid. [01:18:18] Jay: You brought up that Prince cover. Um, also, you know, Sinead. Um, but like, That reminded me of the, uh, there was a Prince Discog Dive that just went through where it’s like, this is a YouTuber who like goes through the entire discography of an artist. And I mean, it’s one of those things where it’s like, not everything they say is going to be great and, but it was pretty solid. [01:18:43] Jay: And they just, it just reminded me, you were talking about this, this weird mindset of like people not realizing what’s going on in front of them. And He brings up this moment where Prince opened for, um, the Rolling Stones and in [01:19:00] L. A. at the L. A. Coliseum. And got booed for three days straight. And to the point where literally people were like, they were mailing in and sending in like letters with just racist and like homophobic slurs about why the greatest rock band in history would allow like such derogatory filth to open for them. [01:19:26] Jay: And in my mind, I’m just like. That was Prince, like, [01:19:31] Jeff: I know, that’s crazy! [01:19:33] Jay: that whole mi and, and kind of like you were saying with like Living Color and Extreme of just like You don’t, you don’t even realize what you have in front of you. Like you don’t realize the amaze, like just the amazing history and legacy. [01:19:47] Jay: And at the time it was the very much present, but like, I would, I, I’ve, I’ve wondered, like, have I ever gone to a show where it’s like, all of a sudden I’m going to regret that I was like, Oh yeah, that first band sucked. Who [01:20:00] was that? Oh, I don’t [01:20:00] Jeff: yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right. Well, you know, the, when, when they opened for the Rolling Stones, there were nights where the, where white men in the front crowd would just hold up their middle fingers for the entire set. And that’s, despite the fact, the reason they, so Mick Jagger saw them at CBGBs and was like, I love you. [01:20:18] Jeff: I have studio time, not far from here. I would like to record a demo for you for free. And like, that’s actually how they got like towards a record label. So there’s like this real relationship between the Rolling Stones and this band. And it’s the same thing. People are like, what the fuck are you bringing these guys here? [01:20:33] Brett: did you know when you bought Extreme Tickets that Living Color was playing? Was that why you bought the [01:20:38] Jeff: I, what kind of asshole [01:20:40] Brett: I’m, I gotta know. I just need this out on the table. [01:20:43] Jeff: Yeah, no, I had said about three years ago, I’m like, the next time that band comes to town, because they would reunite, I’m going to the show. And then I see Extreme, Living Color, I’m like, fuck! [01:20:54] Brett: I meant no offense. I [01:20:55] Jeff: It made me wish you [01:20:56] Brett: like that needed to be said out [01:20:57] Jeff: it made me wish you could like, I don’t know if this [01:21:00] is quite like ranked choice voting, but like you could divert, you could say I want, I want 95% of my ticket to go to Living Color. [01:21:07] Jeff: And 5% to go to Xtreme because I did own the album, you know, um, but yeah, no, fuck that. I, are you kidding me? And I left, man. I walked, I went and bought my shirt when they were done and I was out of there before that band took the stage. So [01:21:23] Brett: Alright. [01:21:24] Jeff: Xtreme fans. [01:21:25] Brett: Well, thanks for being here this week, Jay. [01:21:27] Jeff: Thank you, Jay. [01:21:28] Brett: We’re gonna have you back again on a week Christina can make it. [01:21:31] Jay: Absolutely. [01:21:33] Brett: Alright. [01:21:33] Jay: it. It’s a dream come true for me. Um, I’ve been on, I think I’ve completed uh, all of the podcasts that I’ve ever wanted to be on. So, [01:21:42] Brett: There you go. [01:21:43] Jay: we’ve done it. [01:21:44] Brett: Alright. You guys get some sleep. [01:21:47] Jay: Get some sleep. [01:21:47] Jeff: sleep. [01:22:00]

Jeff is back from Africa, and the gang is ready to dig into mental health. Everyone has stories to share. Sponsor Factor gives you fresh, never frozen meals, ready to eat in two minutes. Save 50% with code overtired50 at factormeals.com/overtired50. Show Links Amex platinum Auvelity Complex PTSD Religious Trauma Syndrome OrbStack AI on Setapp Tembo Orchard Resales Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript The Mental Health Corner Episode [00:00:00] Jeff: Hi, everybody. I’m home. Uh, this is the Overtired podcast and I am Jeff Severns Guntzel and I’m here with my co hosts, Christina Warren and Brett Terpstra. Um, and I haven’t been here with either of you in a long time. And by here, I mean a virtual room where I can see you, but the listeners can’t. Hi. [00:00:22] Brett: Hi, welcome back. [00:00:24] Jeff: Thank you. I didn’t, [00:00:26] Jeff goes to Kenya! [00:00:26] Brett: So tell us where you’ve been. Tell us what’s been going on. [00:00:30] Jeff: Um, Yeah, I just, I’m back. I’m a week now back from a really incredible family vacation. Um, and we went to, uh, we went to Kenya. Um, initially like a, we went to Kenya, um, first of all, to stay with my friend Wanja and her partner, Mel, who have a farm in, um, just outside of Nairobi. [00:00:51] Jeff: Um, like an amazing farm. Like you walk out of their house and not only are you met by four of the best dogs in the world who it turns out keep the monkeys [00:01:00] away, okay. But also if you walk at just past their two offices made out of shipping containers, which are also amazing, you’re in an area like, uh, like basically a farm that has like banana trees and they grow mangoes and avocado and, um, like everything you can imagine, including in, in her case, she’s trying to bring back a certain type of banana that’s gone, um, like almost missing in Kenya. [00:01:22] Jeff: Um, and, and so, uh, yeah, so we went to Kenya, um, stayed with my. My two friends who are just amazing people. I met them. I met one doing, um, other work in the past and her partner Mel does this amazing work with this, um, feminist, um, action group in East Africa mostly. Um, and so it was just like, It was just great to be in a completely new place. [00:01:48] Jeff: I’ve never been to the continent of Africa. Um, and I recognized that I was only in a little piece of it. There’s an understandable sensitivity of people coming and being like, I’m in Africa, [00:02:00] um, when in fact you’re in one little part of Africa. Um, and, and so, yeah, we went, then we went to like a national park, um, where should I just talk about the trip? [00:02:10] Jeff: Is that okay? I’m not just giving an overview. [00:02:12] Christina: Yeah, I want to know all about [00:02:13] Jeff: So we went to a national park. Um, West National Park and, and there was a, like a resort there. Um, and we didn’t really know much about the resort. We especially did not know that like, okay, so you walk in, uh, to the entrance, but the entrance is actually like this, this large, um, massive, like. [00:02:33] Jeff: Ballroom type entryway. And on the other end of it is just the same size hole looking out over, um, over the national park. And, and like, so we just kind of wander up to the edge of that where there’s like a dining area and stuff and it’s all wide open. There’s no screens or windows or anything. And there’s like a watering hole that is a natural watering hole, but of course, uh, kept, um, alive through all the various seasons for the sake of tourism. [00:02:58] Jeff: But it’s, it’s, [00:03:00] we, we like, we walk up to it and. It’s like 50 yards away or less, this watering hole, and it’s completely, um, filled with, or surrounded by, let’s see, giraffe, ostriches, warthogs, God bless them, baboons, God bless them, uh, zebras, um, like everything but like hippos, rhinos, and, and lions. And, and they were all so real and huge and graceful, graceful, except for when you ever seen a giraffe try to drink? [00:03:36] Jeff: It’s very awkward, but [00:03:38] Brett: actually, it’s actually physical, physically very impressive that they even can [00:03:43] Jeff: that they even can they get they like spread their legs really awkwardly and the knees look like they’re gonna buckle. [00:03:48] Brett: that their heads don’t explode when they lower their [00:03:50] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. It takes a long time for the blood to [00:03:53] Brett: Evolution at well, evolutionarily giraffes are very impressive. Like it’s very [00:04:00] impressive. [00:04:00] Jeff: And so like, I, you know, last year we were supposed to go on this Kenya trip, but I got COVID. And so we ended up driving like a total improvised trip out to Yellowstone, which by some grace of God was empty because up until a week before it had been flooded and nobody knew it was open. And we went to the sort of Grand Canyon of Yellowstone. [00:04:19] Jeff: And I remember I stopped at the edge and I could not believe what I was looking at. Like I, my brain just couldn’t fully take it in. And that’s what happened here. Like, I was like, I was just staring at him like that’s. That’s real. And it’s not like we were in some like fenced in special tourist area. [00:04:32] Jeff: Like we were in like a gigantic national park, right? Like the size of a couple of states in the US. And, and that knowledge was like, I need David Attenborough to call me to calm me down to give me context to tell me what’s happening here. So we stayed, stayed there for a few days after the farm. And then we went to Mombasa to the ocean. [00:04:55] Jeff: And, um, and that was, I mean, it was just like, It was a great trip. [00:05:00] And for me, um, it couldn’t have come at a better time. Uh, and it was just a wonderful time to be challenged a little bit, to be in a place that I didn’t know at all. And I didn’t exactly forget how much I loved that, but I had lost touch a little bit with how much I love having to sort of improvise in a place where. [00:05:19] Jeff: I’m not familiar, but also like being conscious of trying to improvise in a way that isn’t like taking up too much space or just being whatever. When I’m in Europe, I’m very comfortable being an ugly American. I feel like that’s part of my role. I feel like that’s our, you know, we are just, we’re locked in that relationship forever. [00:05:35] Jeff: I’m totally okay with it. Um, but when I go anywhere else, I’m like, I try to be. boisterous enough to be at least, like, break down some tension with some kind of charm, but not be, uh, a big, giant asshole. Um, but anyway, so that was that trip. It was with my family. I have two teenage boys, one of whom is going into his senior year of high school, so, you know, we won’t have too many more of, like, [00:06:00] these types of trips where, like, we all leave from home, the same house, and come back to home, the same house. [00:06:07] Jeff: It happens that our family gets along wonderfully. Um, as long as I’m not having a met adjustment, this is another topic, which will did not happen on this trip. Um, sorry, no topic just came up. Um, but it was like my boys by some. Lottery have never fought. Um, they’re two years apart and I can’t remember a single fight except like when, when my youngest was very young, he, he had this amazing fight move, even when they weren’t fighting, where he would go up to my oldest, who’s always been very tall and just grab him by the legs below the shins until he fell like total, like at, at Walker, like battle style. [00:06:44] Jeff: But anyway, like they get along great. They’re just chit chatting the whole time. So it’s just super nice. And, um. What was a little piece of this that was amazing, and I still can’t believe it was just a little slice, was… On our way there, um, we stopped in Egypt, a [00:07:00] dear, dear friend in Egypt, who I haven’t seen in a few years, but we’ve spent six weeks traveling together in three different countries over time. [00:07:08] Jeff: Um, and so we, we made it a 25 hour layover in Cairo. We saw the pyramids in the morning and went to his house for an Eid meal in the afternoon. Um, He taught my youngest, my youngest is super interested in how you roll cigarettes. Um, he watches a lot of old Westerns and stuff. And so when my friend Ahmed started rolling his cigarette, I was like, Oh man, Anthony’s definitely interested. [00:07:34] Jeff: And he’s like, come on over. And so he not only teaches Anthony how to roll a cigarette, but teaches them the fine distinctions between rolling a cigarette and rolling a joint. And I have this amazing picture of the two of them, and it was just such a kick, it was a blast. And seeing the pyramids was insane, it was like, it was awful, because it’s just one of those dynamics where like, there’s a lot of people coming up to you and trying to sell you things or whatever else, and I’m like, not, I’m not down on those people at all, it’s just that [00:08:00] dynamic sucks, and I’m definitely on the good end of it. [00:08:04] Jeff: But like, standing at the base of the pyramids was pretty wild, like, it is, turns out it’s pretty cool. It’s pretty cool. Um. And so, yeah, it was just like this amazing trip. The piece that I haven’t talked about is my wife is an incredible miles hacker, like credit card miles hacker, like incredible, which meant that all of our flights were free. [00:08:23] Jeff: We’d have never been able to afford this. Not only were they free, but two nine hour legs were fricking business class. [00:08:30] Christina: Oh my God. [00:08:32] Jeff: And which I’ve never flown and, and again, I want to just emphasize the listeners. We could not even have afforded to do this and coach had it not been for this thing. And so have you flown ever business [00:08:44] Brett: Oh, [00:08:45] Jeff: Okay. I have not like in the pods and whatnot. Um, so I have [00:08:49] Christina: I’ve done this. I’ve done the Singapore suites, which was actually first class, uh, international first class, but that was only once. And that was with credit card miles. Sorry. [00:08:57] Jeff: Awesome. Yeah. This is like the, totally like the lay [00:09:00] flat pods, although it turns out me and my oldest are too tall to actually lay flat. It ends [00:09:04] Christina: still amazing. [00:09:06] Jeff: Yeah, it’s still amazing. So um, that was so funny for me because I spent most of that time being like, these motherfuckers have had this all, like this bathroom that I can not only stand in, but walk a circle in and when I sit down, I’m looking out a window dedicated to like pooping and peeing. [00:09:25] Christina: No, exactly. Exactly. No, once you experience it and you realize that there’s been this whole other like class available, like at this point, I will not go international unless I’m flying business class. Um, I will not do it. And, and I used to always like work always covered it. But, um, They’ve cut budgets significantly. [00:09:43] Christina: So I have to either upgrade myself or, you know, pay or whatnot, or, or just have it. And, but I haven’t gone on an international trip, um, in, in a year at this point, but like I did premium economy, um, to Copenhagen last year. And on the way back, I upgraded myself. I was like, I am not [00:10:00] doing like, it was like a, it was like a 12 hour flight. [00:10:02] Christina: I was like, ah, [00:10:04] Jeff: Yeah. [00:10:05] Christina: it’s full business class or nothing, not doing it. [00:10:08] Brett: that’s, that’s what terrified me when they were when they were planning to send me to Spain. It’s what like a 1313 16 hour flight. I don’t remember. [00:10:17] Christina: No, I mean, for you it’d be like, it’d be like, uh, because for me it’s ten, so for you it’d be like eight. [00:10:24] Brett: No, I don’t think that’s true. I’ll take your word for it. Either way, like I get, I get freaked out in even with even like an exit row and coach. I get freaked out after about two hours. I just I go, I go insane. I can’t handle it. And the cost to upgrade this. [00:10:46] Christina: but there’s, but, but, but, but that is with one stop. [00:10:49] Brett: And the cost, the cost to upgrade The, cause they would buy me a coach ticket and to upgrade it would have been like 1500 bucks. [00:10:56] Brett: And I just wasn’t sure, for one leg, I [00:11:00] just, I, I, I, I decided to bite the bullet. Then they canceled my trip and it was a moot point. But, um, yeah, like flying coach for nine to 12 hours seems insane to [00:11:13] Jeff: in the, go ahead, Christina. [00:11:16] Christina: I was going to say, and I’ve done it. I’ve done it. And it is, [00:11:18] Jeff: Well, and in the middle of this, so our flight, our, our journey home from Mombasa was five flights over 46 hours. Um, and in the middle of that was a nine hour coach flight. And it wasn’t just that all of a sudden I was crunched and I had been to the promised land. Um, it was that, like, the poor, like, entire row of kids next to me were coughing, [00:11:42] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:11:43] Jeff: nine hours, and I’m like, oh, that’s it, I’m dead. [00:11:45] Jeff: But also, the funny thing is how swi how quickly my sort of class allegiances can change. So, like, I I did notice, like, I’m like, my first time in business class, I’m like, oh, this is why nobody looks me in the eye when I’m walking through to coach. And, like, and then when I was [00:12:00] going to coach, I was like, look me in the eye. And, like, [00:12:03] Christina: one of you. [00:12:04] Jeff: Yeah, so like the only okay, so two other things about this one, I had an amazing the one thing I didn’t realize about business classes, how many people are doing it for the first time, whenever you’re there, which gives it kind of a fun feel. And so I sat down in my like, pod, and the dude in the pod next to me must have been about like, Yeah, mid seventies. [00:12:22] Jeff: And he’s drinking a whiskey, um, instead of the champagne that they give you right away. Right? He just went straight for the whiskey. He’s gruff. He’s got a beard and all of the stuff they give you is stacked in his lap. And, and as I’m putting my, my stuff away and kind of trying to figure this out myself, I mean, what the hell is all this? [00:12:36] Jeff: And he goes, you ever flown first class before? And I was like, no, he’s like, yeah, What do I do with all this shit? And like, as I settled in, I’m like, I don’t know, because by the time I settled in, it looked like how I live at home. It was just shit everywhere. And like, I dropped something behind the seat or whatever, but I want to say one last thing about the business class experience, which is not strictly business class, but mostly I had [00:13:00] never been in an airport lounge and [00:13:02] Christina: was the best experience. [00:13:03] Jeff: I what this here’s what pisses me off about it and almost nothing pisses me off about it. [00:13:08] Jeff: But the one thing that pisses me off about it. It’s like, okay, so when I’m flying in coach, I’m walking around the airport paying shit tons of money for stupid, terrible food. And all along, these people were in here with outlets, showers, and a buffet that included free gummy bears. Like, I was like, [00:13:27] Christina: Now, now I will say, uh, it is very easy for anybody, regardless of what, um, class you’re flying to get into an airport lounge, [00:13:35] Jeff: Yes. [00:13:36] Christina: the airport lounges are now very crowded. So, [00:13:39] Brett: 70, 70, 70 bucks, I think is what it cost me. When I was flying coach, I got into the Delta lounge. [00:13:45] Christina: well, yeah, but you can’t buy, because they’re so crowded now because of credit cards, you can’t buy a day pass anymore. Lounge is unless it’s prior to past lounge, however, and this is the thing and this is what all will I will give to listeners out there? There are few credit cards that you can get if you’re a credit [00:14:00] card person that if you travel even a moderate amount are worth it The the big one. [00:14:05] Christina: Yes, I was going to say is the American Express platinum card that card if you’re a Delta flyer Especially Is an amazing value. All right. I will be honest. The annual fee is either six or 700. However, you get a Delta, um, SkyClub with it, which is more than the cost of the annual fee. If you buy the individual membership, you also get access to all of the American Express Centurion lounges. [00:14:29] Christina: You also get access to the entire priority pass network and the Delta SkyClub thing also means that you have lounges to all the Air France and KLM and. And other things. So, plus you get free, um, uh, clear plus, which is the clear that also gets you through TSA pre check and you get a TSA pre check, um, global entry things. [00:14:48] Christina: All that is like comped. So. The annual fee is high, but it’s worth [00:14:53] Brett: If you’re traveling, it’s [00:14:55] Christina: if you travel more than I’d say five times a year and you have like a lounge, [00:15:00] especially if you’re Delta flyer. It’s worth it. The alternate card is also high. Annual fee is the chase Sapphire reserve. That also gives you priority pass and it gives you a certain amount of like, uh, you get a couple hundred dollars like actual money, um, airline credit each year and other stuff. [00:15:15] Christina: So if you travel a lot and you want to do the lounge system, the, the Sapphire reserve is, is second best for lounges. But the. best one is the American Express Platinum. [00:15:25] Jeff: Go ahead. [00:15:26] Brett: I will say that the lounges change an airport entirely once you discover the lounge. Like the San Francisco airport, it’s, it’s generally pretty nice, but it’s so boring if you’re there for more than an [00:15:39] Christina: Yeah. No, I, I, [00:15:41] Brett: the lounge changes everything. [00:15:43] Christina: I call it my happy place. Like I still check in, um, on, um, on, on swarm, which used to be four square. And I literally call it the lounge, my happy place because it is one of those things like, and, and it’s also great, especially if you have like TSA pre check or clear and whatnot, like. I’ll have, I’ll, I’ll, I usually get to the airport [00:16:00] late. [00:16:00] Christina: Um, and, and I’ll, I might have, you know, 45 minutes before my, my, my plane, you know, is boarding or sometimes even half an hour, and I’m just like, no, I’m gonna go to the lounge. I’m going to get a drink and, and, and maybe grab a snack, maybe grab some chips or something. I’m gonna go to the bathroom, you know, if I have longer than that, like if I need to do a meeting, if I need to do something like it’s. [00:16:19] Christina: It’s now, not all airport lounges are great. It depends on the airport you’re in, depends on other stuff. But like, um, Chicago, uh, uh, has, um, uh, you know, good airports and probably has good lounge situation. Minneapolis where you are, Brett, like that amazing lounge, um, stuff. Delta [00:16:36] Brett: launch in Minneapolis is awesome. [00:16:38] Christina: The Delta lounge in Seattle is also great. [00:16:41] Christina: Uh, because, uh, it’s, um, uh, we’re a hub. So it was Minneapolis. So, um. Yeah, [00:16:47] Jeff: And, and I will say that on the 46 hour, five flight journey home at about. Our 26th, we were in a really nice lounge, I think we were [00:17:00] in Frankfurt, and I took a shower, [00:17:02] Christina: that’s the best thing, [00:17:04] Jeff: and I, I thought, why would I ever want to take a shower, but Laurel, like, my wife did it, and then she sent a picture of it, she’s like, this is amazing, and I was like, okay, I’ll try it, and it was like, uh, the flow from the ceiling, [00:17:16] Christina: Yeah, and it like changes everything like what you can also do is a great thing to do You did it perfectly because you were like in between legs But what I’ve done is I’ve either gone to the airport and like been about to leave and like taking a shower But my favorite thing to do is either what you did like in between a layover or a shower on arrival Like, if I take a red eye, I’ll go to the lounge, and like, I’m, I’m, and then before I go, like, I’ll go to the lounge before I even get my bags or whatever, um, if I’ve checked a bag, and I’ll take a shower, and then, like, I will have, like, a change of clothes with me, and then I will, like, be able to go to my hotel and just be like, Ah, [00:17:52] Jeff: Yeah. Awesome. Two. Okay. Two things to close this out. One, putting compression socks back on after a shower is a drag. Um, and I’m old. [00:18:00] Two, the Amex Platinum card, if you live in a snowy region, is an amazing ice scraper, which is how I lost mine. Cause it’s metal. [00:18:09] Christina: it is metal, it’s great. You can also get it in rose gold, um, [00:18:12] Jeff: That’s right. That’s right. [00:18:13] Christina: sorry, that’s the gold one, no, the platinum is just platinum, but, uh, yeah, but they do have, because I both have the platinum and I have the rose gold gold card, but yeah. Platinum heart is, is metal. It’s great. [00:18:21] Brett: All right. [00:18:22] Jeff: That was great. [00:18:23] Brett: Thank you for sharing Jeff. That sounds like an amazing experience. I’m actually very jealous. I have not traveled for so long now. [00:18:32] Christina: I love that your kids and your whole family have that experience. Like that to me, what you were saying about like, you know, it’s the last like big family, you know, one of the last big like family trips like this, where you’re all, we coming back to the same house, like they’ll, and what’s great is everybody’s old enough to remember it like this. [00:18:45] Christina: It’s going to be one of those things that everybody was old enough to remember it and enjoy it and, and be together. And that’s, that’s fantastic. [00:18:52] Jeff: Totally. [00:18:53] Brett: very [00:18:54] Jeff: I’ll submit a photo for show art. [00:18:56] Brett: Yes, please do. Um, all right. So how do [00:19:00] you guys feel about a little mental health corner? [00:19:03] Jeff: I’m already in that corner. [00:19:04] Brett: I have some shit to talk about, but I can go last. [00:19:10] Jeff: Christina. [00:19:10] Brett: Yeah. Christina go. [00:19:12] Mental Health Corner [00:19:12] Christina: All right. I have some shit to talk about too. All right. So, um, I’m doing pretty well right now. I’ve just started a new antidepressant called Ovelity, A U V E L I T Y, and it is, it’s only been on the market for just under a year. The data that my psychiatrist told me about, because he follows all this stuff, is very similar to S ketamine, which, um, is, um, you know, the, the, the, um, nasal infusions, um, that it’s the only way that, that ketamine is approved. [00:19:43] Christina: It’s not, it’s some similar like formulation, but it’s not the same thing. Um, but the, it’s like part of it as well, we’ve turned it and there’s some other compound that they’ve combined it with, but the results are very, very good. Um, in, in all, in all the studies, like the, they’re, they’re off the [00:20:00] charts. [00:20:00] Christina: I’ve only been on it. I think I’m on like day four or day five. Um, and I’ve. Um, I’m already noticing a, a market improvement, which is good because I’d been pretty depressed and I’d been in a pretty depressed state for a while. Um, add to that, um, Um, the last week, uh, plus has been really, really difficult. [00:20:19] Christina: Um, a friend of mine and a guy that I worked with closely for five years, um, died unexpectedly, um, at, uh, at age 37. And, um, that’s, it’s been incredibly, incredibly difficult to, um, to navigate that. And, um, I’m, um, yeah, so like last week was really, really rough. Um, but, um. We were, we were talking pre show about how sometimes you can take a medication, it can impact you and you don’t even, you’re not even aware of it. [00:20:56] Christina: Like I, either you have like a bad reaction or you have a good reaction. And [00:21:00] honestly it was one of those things I think like took me like two days because I typically, however my body is wired, I react to, to med changes very fast, like very fast. Like I will usually get a side effect almost immediately or like it’ll kick in or it’ll, it’ll work or it won’t. [00:21:17] Christina: Um, I will also say that things have a tendency to not work forever. So I’m going to have to like, keep, keep a watch on that. But, um, uh, this was one where honestly, like, and I don’t think it’s placebo because again, I was already depressed and then adding grief on top of that. Um, and, and I’m like feeling like. [00:21:38] Christina: Immeasurably immeasurably bit better. Like, I’m still obviously, um, working through the, the grief of, of losing my friend. Um, and, and the circumstances and the whole, everything that was kind of involved in that. And I have some guilt that’s involved for, for myself involved in that too. That, that I’m, that I’m not gonna dive into. [00:21:56] Christina: Um, but, um, I’m [00:22:00] feeling so much better than I was a week ago when I literally couldn’t get out of bed and was just from a combination of just everything. So, so that, that’s it. [00:22:11] Jeff: helping. And I’m sorry about your friend. And I, without you going into it, like you said, like that, there are so many ways to have guilt when someone dies. It’s like. It’s terrible. [00:22:24] Brett: Yeah. So it’s a, uh, Ability is a combination of dextromorphophan and, and bupriapine, which is Welbutrin, as you said. Um, but I can’t find the information on its titration period. It sounds like you have really quick titrations, like you adjust to medications faster than average. Um, I know Welbutrin usually has a 30 day titration period. [00:22:52] Brett: Yeah. [00:22:52] Christina: I think so. And I remember, and I remember when I took well, we turned and obviously this 20 years ago. I remember that kicking in relatively [00:23:00] quickly, [00:23:00] Brett: Yeah, I mean, it’s entirely possible. I’m not, I’m not [00:23:03] Christina: Yeah, no, no, no, totally. Well, no, but I mean, there have been things, I mean, again, like, I will, like, I remember the first time, I don’t remember what it was. [00:23:09] Christina: It was Prozac or Paxil, one of them. I remember taking it and then like, oh, I don’t remember what it was now, but there was one drug that I took that immediately gave me migraines. [00:23:17] Jeff: Mm. [00:23:18] Christina: first migraine I’ve ever, I’d ever had, like, could not open my eyes. Um, migraines. Um, now that’s a side effect, but yeah, for me typically, like, and again, I’m not feeling like a hundred percent, but, um, there’s been like a market improvement and [00:23:33] Brett: really hopeful. [00:23:34] Christina: yeah, like, like, like I would like, like my, like my bedroom has just been kind of a complete disaster. [00:23:39] Christina: And like, I did a lot of work on cleaning it last night with like very little. [00:23:43] Jeff: Always a good sign. [00:23:44] Christina: No, it really is because and, and, and, and I went to two movies yesterday and, and I’m, you know, like I, I was worried because I’ve got this big thing that I’m doing today. I’m going to Taylor Swift with a friend of mine who’s had the worst year that anybody could have. [00:23:59] Christina: And [00:24:00] um, she, um, she lost her husband unexpectedly while they were on a family vacation. And Turks and Caicos, um, with, uh, two kids under five, um, uh, you know, he like dropped out of a heart attack at age 39 and she’s genuinely the nicest, kindest, sweetest person I’ve ever met. And, you know, I was like worried that I was going to have to like, almost like fake it to sort of rally, you know, to be there for her because I’m, I’m, she’s flying in, but like, I, I, I’ve got us a hotel room and, and I, I gave her my, my extra ticket, um, because I wanted to do something for her and, you know, I was really worried that I was like going to have to, Uh, you know, like really have to like fake excitement and, and whatnot. [00:24:45] Christina: And, and I’m certainly not feeling the same euphoria that I was feeling when I was in New York two months ago, but, um, like, cause my mental health was better then, but I’m definitely like feeling like I can be in a place where I can actually be in that moment and not be like [00:25:00] besotted by the grief of my friend and guilt over that and the depression and all that stuff. [00:25:04] Christina: Like, I’m actually feeling like I can go in and I can enjoy myself. [00:25:07] Jeff: Yeah. Oh, [00:25:08] Brett: I like house cleaning as a measure of wellness. [00:25:13] Jeff: it’s huge in my life. [00:25:15] Brett: and, and it’s, it’s, it has this compound effect where like cleaning the house indicates that you are in a better place to begin with, but then having a clean house puts you in an even better place. Um, so it’s kind of, it’s kind of like crawling your way out [00:25:32] Christina: it really is. It really is. It’s one of those things where it’s it’s like it’s it’s um kind of like how you have to, I think, treat agoraphobia and and things like that, which is that you go, you have to go against the grain, which is like you have to actually get out and do things and do the hard thing and then you feel better the more you do it. [00:25:52] Christina: Um, but, but I, cause, you know, like, yeah, I think that, that you’re right. It’s a really, really good barometer for [00:26:00] health because like, you feel better when your house is cleaner, but there can be those points when, like Grant and I, we say that like, you can tell like how we’re feeling based on like, kind of like the cloneliness or lack thereof. [00:26:10] Christina: And like bedroom is just like a disaster. Um, because I was just in a really, really bad place and had been for a really long time. And then having to still fake it, you know, uh, for work as much as I could until that was even breaking down. And so I’m, I’m hopeful, you know, like I’m, I’m not like feeling like this is necessarily going to be a complete win, but, um, the, the hopeful thing, and then, then they’ll shut up. [00:26:34] Christina: Cause I know that you have a lot to say, uh, Brett and I know you [00:26:36] Brett: no, please go ahead. [00:26:38] Christina: but, um, is, um, in addition to going on this new medication, I’m also coming off of a I’ve been on and off of for a really long time effects are, um, I was on the lowest dose, 37 and a half milligrams. The reason I’ve still been on that, even though it’s a very low dose, um, in addition to this other pill that I’ve taken is because, um, frontalics is [00:27:00] because The side effects like the withdrawal is so severe and I’ve gone through that withdrawal before and it’s awful and so I’ve been trying to withdraw from it while I’m the ability. [00:27:11] Christina: So what I’m doing is I’m literally I’m like taking a capsule I’m I’m opening it up. I’m putting half of it in my hand, you know I have little pellets in my hand taking those and then you know Putting the capsule back together and then taking the the capsule the next day. I could You know, like order my doctor was like, Oh, you could get, you know, capsules off of Amazon or whatever. [00:27:32] Christina: I’m like, Dr. Wah. I was wonderful for you to think that I will do that. I was like, and, and that might even be a fun project for my husband. He might even enjoy playing pharmacist. I was like, however, I can tell you right now, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to eyeball it and get close enough. You know, I was like, [00:27:52] Jeff: You’re not gonna borrow your friend’s drug scale? [00:27:54] Christina: no, [00:27:54] Jeff: I’m not saying your friends have drug scales, [00:27:57] Christina: I mean, I do have [00:27:57] Jeff: probably don’t have to reach too far. [00:27:59] Christina: Oh, [00:28:00] not at all. [00:28:01] Jeff: You know anybody in the restaurant industry? Boom. [00:28:04] Christina: all. Or the software industry. You know? [00:28:06] Jeff: Or the software industry. That’s true. [00:28:08] Brett: I have a, I have, I, I have a milligram scale. It’s actually very good. [00:28:13] Christina: Um, And we might even have one. I don’t even know. Grant might have one for… Honestly, Grant probably has one. [00:28:19] Jeff: but the point is that’s not how you’re doing this. [00:28:21] Christina: Fuck no. Absolutely not. That, that, that, that’s a level of effort and precision. Um, so anyway, again, like just to finish out, like why this is hopeful is that I’m, you know, trying to, um, get myself off of this thing that I’ve been on for many, many, many, many years while trying a new thing as well. [00:28:39] Christina: And I was. And this was before the death, I was like, oh shit, this is going to be a really difficult time to have this concert and have this weekend and have all this stuff, um, but um, but I’m doing okay. So that’s, I’m, I’m really hopeful about that. [00:28:55] Jeff: So as long as Taylor Swift is on this world bending tour, are you just going to be occasionally going?[00:29:00] [00:29:00] Christina: Yes. I mean, honestly, I would love to go to some of the international shows if I can. Well, if I could reliably get tickets, like the Asia legs, there’s no way in hell I would, I would try that. I wouldn’t do South America, but I would, I would go to Australia. I would go to Europe. And the only reason I wouldn’t go try for the Asian legs, Singapore would be amazing, but I think they are going to be impossible to like buy, um, regularly. [00:29:22] Christina: And then the other things I’m just like, the, the insanity in those countries around her. I’m just like, I don’t know. [00:29:33] Jeff: Be something to see. [00:29:34] Christina: I would, but I’m also like, I like, like, like South, like, I’m just trying to imagine like what it’ll be like when she’s in Brazil because I’ve been to Brazil, um, a few [00:29:41] Jeff: everything insane when somebody comes [00:29:43] Christina: Yes. Yes. And, and that’s the thing. [00:29:45] Christina: And, and I’ve spent like, I feel like I know Brazil because I’ve spent like, Uh, total time of like a month there and, and, and I’ve been in a bunch of different cities and so I don’t really know it. I only know parts of it, but like everything I’ve seen, like, I’m like, I, I’m like, [00:30:00] Oh my God, that is going to be. [00:30:02] Christina: Absolute insanity because there are people who are like, Oh, the tickets are cheaper. I could just go to Brazil and said, I’m like, Oh, wow. A prepare yourself for one of those flights that, that, that, um, you know, you were on, uh, Jeff, you know, getting there, like it’s not 46 hours, but it’s 27. Um, and, uh, and, and B, um, I just, I feel like, I feel like I’d be worried genuinely about like the size of the crowds and the other stuff like in, and I’m not even being hyperbolic here. [00:30:31] Christina: I’m like, And I’m not scared by crowds and I’m like, I feel like this would be like a World Cup sort of situation and I’m not really sure if I want to be a part of that, but I would go see her in Paris or in, in England. I would love to see her in Paris. [00:30:45] Brett: That would be fun. [00:30:47] Jeff: yeah. [00:30:47] Christina: I’m done now. [00:30:49] Brett: I will say on the house cleaning thing, um, my, we, we have house cleaners come about once a month and, um, our, the, it’s [00:31:00] a couple that cleans our house and, uh, the woman in the couple, it’s a heterosexual couple. The woman, um, is big into like energy and astrology and stuff. And she. After Yeti died, she advised me that cleaning the spaces where Yeti was, was important to my grieving process. [00:31:26] Brett: And one of those spaces was my bedroom, which I always ask them to leave alone. Like, well, like clean the whole house, but my bedroom is kind of my like safe space and it’s, um, it’s a mess. Like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t want anyone touching it, but this time I like, uh, I, I, I, I put a bunch of shit on the bed, um, just to get it out of the way. [00:31:50] Brett: But I did clean up the room enough for them to come in and do like a deep clean on the floors and surfaces. And actually she was right. It [00:32:00] actually was really good for. For my mental health and for my grieving process. And yeah, it was, it was, it was nice. [00:32:09] Christina: That’s great. [00:32:10] Jeff: That’s great. Yeti. [00:32:13] Brett: Jeff, how are you doing? [00:32:16] Jeff: I’m doing good today. Uh, I had a hard time once I was home. It’s weird, like there’s, there was two things happening at once. And, and one is that like something shifted in me about a couple, maybe a month and a half ago, where all of a sudden I was like performing my work at a level that I had wished I always It had been that I knew I could, um, work came easy. [00:32:40] Jeff: Getting things done came easy. When I raised my hand for something, I didn’t feel like everyone was going, dude, no, Like, you’ve, you’ve raised your hand for everything. And so when I came back home, that feeling continued, but I found myself in my office just feeling like, Really kind of depressed. And I think it was partly probably just that I dove right in after the trip and that [00:33:00] on the trip, I felt so good. [00:33:01] Jeff: And I don’t know if you have this experience, but when I travel, when I get away from everything, like a lot of what. weighs me down, goes away. And, and I’m a lot lighter and, um, I just feel a lot better internally and, and all that stuff. So I think coming home to my office is like a little rough, even though I love my office. [00:33:19] Jeff: And speaking of offices getting dirty, there’s actually a point where. I changed my fans and it blew down a painting on my shelf that blew down a little baby lost cause aloe plant that I’ve been trying to like nurse back to life, um, which broke on the floor and I left it there for two days. And finally, my wife came in and she’s like, we have this policy in our house where like, if someone’s like, say you’re like, you’re, you know, you’re trying to make your breakfast and you drop an egg on the floor, like we have a policy, all four of us, the deal is like if that happens, someone, whoever’s closest steps in and cleans it up. [00:33:52] Jeff: Like it’s not, it’s like not the, the person who’s demoralized, but like someone else steps in cause they’re not mad. They’re not like [00:34:00] frustrated. They’re not like whatever. And so Laurel hadn’t been in my office in a couple of days and she’s like, let me get that for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And actually having her do that and realizing that I had left it there for a couple days, which I’m sure to some people listening is like incomprehensible, um, helped me to just like, okay, I’m actually just going to clean this whole place up. [00:34:20] Jeff: And, and that was, that was so helpful. So anyway, um, I just, I’m just relating to that thing about cleaning. For me, it’s my office because I have a family of four. And so, and I’m kind of like the homemaker on the main floor. Um, and so I am the one that cleans. And so I feel like if I don’t clean every day, that shit gets crazy because I don’t know what you know about teenage boys, but like, let me just say they make a lot of. [00:34:44] Jeff: Footprints. [00:34:45] Christina: gonna, I was gonna say, all I know about them is that, that I feel like they would like, I feel like a lot, a lot of mess, a lot of smells, a lot of, a lot of, uh, stains of unknown origins. [00:34:56] Jeff: Yeah. And like, honestly, like the crazy [00:35:00] thing is like, this was my wife’s idea, but it worked like four years ago. She’s like, let’s give them both a job at the end of the day. So like after every dinner, one has the job of putting away all the food and the other one does the dishes. And they’ve done that consistently for years, which is insane. [00:35:14] Jeff: And no, every night it’s the same job for years. But like, even with that. The house gets insane, right? Like, so yes, they are. But, but Christina, to your point about the mess, like they live in the basement. So it’s mostly the basement that feels [00:35:29] Christina: Oh, that’s, see, oh, and that’s, okay, you guys are so smart, like, you and Laurel are so smart for doing that, like, A, like, lucky to, like, have the basement, and B, like, put, like, the teenage boys, like, or even just, like, like, whatever age they are, like, even, like, preteen, like, like, through, like, young teenage through, like, high school age boys, like, in the basement, that’s perfect. [00:35:48] Jeff: We wanted them to have that in, [00:35:49] Christina: No, that’s great for them. I was going to say they have a great, great space for them to grow and kind of enjoy and have their own space. But also like then you don’t have to like walk in on like the [00:36:00] porn watching. [00:36:00] Jeff: Anything. I don’t know what I’d be. Yeah, I know. I don’t even think about that. Um, yeah, totally. But also, you know, when we finished that basement about two months before COVID. And so otherwise, it was just a nasty raw basement, you know, a little damp, whatever. Anyway, last thing I’ll say is just because we were talking about this before the show. [00:36:17] Jeff: And Christina, you were talking about med changes. Like, it’s like, I’m at a point where I hate to even admit this, but I haven’t made a it. This isn’t the part I hate to admit, I haven’t made a med change in quite a while, I just did make one and I have been a difficult person for like the three days I’ve been off that medication and it only occurred to like both of us today. [00:36:38] Jeff: It’s like, wait, hold on. This like kind of terrible three days corresponds with this medication change. And man, I know you both have experiences. I just feel like, how is it possible? That after all this time and all these experiences I’ve had, especially my couple years of trying to land on the right sort of combo after my bipolar diagnosis, like, how is it possible that I wasn’t like, all right, [00:37:00] alert, alert, I’m changing a medication. [00:37:02] Brett: so weird. I have a real hard time connecting, uh, cause and effect. Uh, like it, it happens to me all the time with like, so you’re having digestion problems. What did you eat two days ago? Like [00:37:17] Jeff: Yeah, [00:37:18] Brett: I don’t make those connections and med changes are especially egregious because they’re so obvious. [00:37:24] Brett: There’s such intentional things and you know exactly what’s happening and then I am. oblivious to how my life changes, how my reactions change, how my emotional state changes. And I don’t connect cause and effect. And it is, it’s frustrating to everyone in my life. It is usually Al who has to remind me, yeah, you just went through this big change recently, because my brain just does not connect them. [00:37:53] Brett: And it can be very frustrating. [00:37:54] Jeff: I think the important thing too, that’s so unique about it is [00:38:00] if you have a behavior change, it’s not that you’re being how you were before the medication, it’s that it’s a whole different thing that might have flavors of how you were before, but it’s, it’s a different thing. And, and this is the hardest part, both in real time and to grapple with afterwards, it feels so real. [00:38:18] Jeff: So if you’re, if you have a short fuse, the thing that you get upset about feels so. Real. And, and that is, that can be a nightmare. Um, and, and it can also like, for me, it’s a, it’s eroded my, my trust in myself, like my own, like kind of ability to say like, no, this is something I ought to be upset about. Um, so anyway, just to anybody else out there who’s had that experience, like it is a completely unique experience that is somehow new every time. [00:38:47] Jeff: And it’s just what it is. [00:38:49] Brett: L L talks about with, with their autistic burnout, uh, that, um, she will like go to her room [00:39:00] to like get away from the situation, but convinced that as soon as they calm down, they’re gonna, they’re gonna understand exactly why it was my fault. [00:39:09] Jeff: Mm. Oh, yeah, [00:39:10] Brett: whatever I did, as soon as, as soon as I can calm down, this is going to be his fault and I’ll be able to explain that to him. [00:39:18] Brett: And, uh, in the process of like calm, calming down and like coming back to earth, uh, you can realize, Oh wait, this was me. This was my problem. Um. And I definitely have that happen, but [00:39:37] Jeff: Yeah. I feel like it would go in my guidebook for anybody, you know, who’s starting to kind of starting with meds that hadn’t had them before. That would be the guidebook. Like you need a, you need a protocol for when you are changing meds that everyone needs to speak it out loud, right? For the next five days. [00:39:55] Jeff: I need to not trust certain feelings and understand that [00:40:00] that’s okay. It’s not putting them away or denying myself righteous justice or anything else. Anyway, that’s sort of my [00:40:08] Brett: I’m looking at the time and realizing we need to fit a sponsor in, uh, can we have a sponsor mid mental health [00:40:16] Christina: We absolutely can. [00:40:18] Sponsor: Factor [00:40:18] Brett: All right. I will, I will take this one. Now that it’s summer, you might be looking for wholesome, convenient s for sunny, active days. Factor, America’s number one ready to eat meal kit can help you fuel up fast with flavorful and nutritious ready to eat meals delivered straight to your door. [00:40:39] Jeff: one already, that was fast. [00:40:41] Brett: You’ll save time, eat well, and stay on track reaching your goals. Too busy with summer plans to cook but want to make sure you’re eating well? With Factor, skip the trip to the grocery store and skip the chopping, prepping, and cleaning up to while still getting the flavor and nutritional quality you need. [00:40:58] Brett: Factors fresh, [00:41:00] never frozen meals are ready in just two minutes. So all you have to do is heat and enjoy, and then get back outside to soak up the warm weather. They offer delicious flavor packed options on the menu each week to fit a variety of lifestyles from keto to calorie smart, vegan plus veggie and protein plus prepared dieticians. [00:41:22] Brett: Each meal has all the ingredients you need to feel satisfied all day long while meeting your goals. And if you’re looking to mix it up. You can add a protein to select vegan and veggie meals. Choose from 34 plus chef prepared dietitian approved weekly options featuring premium ingredients, such as broccolini, leeks, truffle butter, and asparagus. [00:41:44] Brett: Plus you can round out your meal and replenish your snack supply with an assortment of 45 plus add ons, including breakfast items like their delicious apple cinnamon pancakes, bacon and cheddar egg bites and potato bacon and egg breakfast skillet. Or [00:42:00] For an easy wellness boost, try refreshing beverage options like cold pressed juices, shakes, and smoothies. [00:42:08] Brett: And with Factor, you can rest assured that you’re making a sustainable choice. They offer 100% of their delivery emissions to your door, source 100% renewable electricity for their production sites and offices, and feature sustainably sourced seafood in their meals. This July get factor and enjoy eating well without the hassle. [00:42:30] Brett: Simply choose your meals and enjoy fresh flavor packed meals delivered to your door. Ready in just two minutes. No prep, no mess. Head to Factor meals.com/overtired 50 and use code overtired 50 to get 50% off. That’s code Overtired 50. At factor meals. com slash overtired 50 to get 50% off. [00:42:56] Jeff: Okay, uh, two things, uh, about that sponsor. [00:43:00] Um, one is, that is, it’s really good food. I think, I wish we, I wish we still got free food, but we don’t really deserve it because they, they decided to, to stay a sponsor even after Brett’s, like, union, uh, rant some time ago. Um, uh, which, and at which point when, when, when Danny Glamour, friend of the show, Hey Danny, just moved to Burbank. [00:43:20] Jeff: Uh, was listening to the show. He texted me and he goes, whenever it goes, that’s sponsor. Um, and I knew exactly what he was talking about. Um, but they’re still here. The food’s still good. Congrats on apparently getting a number one. I don’t know if that’s evidence based, but thanks for hanging out. [00:43:34] Christina: Yeah. Thanks for hanging out. Thanks for still sponsoring us. Uh, or at least not listening to the whole content of our episodes and just listening to the ad break, which is fine too, regardless. Uh, good product. Uh, thank you. [00:43:45] Brett: I, I stand by, I stand by my union [00:43:49] Christina: Uh, I do too. I mean, all three of us are, are, I mean, like, yeah. [00:43:54] Mental Health Corner (cont.) [00:43:54] Brett: Okay. So mental health corner continued. I feel like that’s this episode is [00:43:59] Christina: what this episode [00:44:00] is called. This episode is called Mental Health Corner. [00:44:02] Brett: Um, So I, uh, I’ll start with this. I fired my therapist. [00:44:08] Christina: Okay. [00:44:09] Jeff: That, which was about a year in now. Not [00:44:12] Brett: Yeah, yeah, it seems that sounds about right. Um, I, I was talking to him about, um, my self confidence and how it was tied to my weight. And he said the words. Just imagine how much happier you would be if you lost 10 pounds. And, and then like doubled down on this after I explained to him, I need my self worth not to be tied to my waistline. [00:44:41] Brett: And he’s like, but just imagine losing 10 pounds and how much better you would feel about yourself. And I’m like, that’s not what I need. I [00:44:52] Christina: needing the opposite actually. [00:44:53] Brett: have been 185 pounds and I did not feel any better about myself. Like I’ve been there. I’ve done [00:45:00] that. You need to shut the fuck up about losing 10 pounds. And, and he wouldn’t. [00:45:06] Brett: Instead, he went to a bass fishing analogy, [00:45:09] Jeff: Oh, what’s up with Nona? [00:45:11] Brett: Which got real weird, real fast. And he kept telling me to just imagine you just caught a huge bass. You just reeled in a huge bass. And I’m like, I have no connection [00:45:23] Jeff: I hate [00:45:24] Brett: to what you’re talking about right now. Yeah. I have no desire to fish. Like none of this makes sense to me. [00:45:29] Brett: And, and I realized I’m like tweeting with, uh, or I’m texting with Brian, friend of the show, Brian Guffey. Um, I’m texting him in real time. I’m like, I just found out my. My therapist is fat phobic and obsessed with bass fishing and I need to fire this guy. So I start with a new therapist next week, actually, cause I had, I had reached out prior to this and gotten on a waiting list and it timed out such that [00:46:00] I will be with my new therapist the same week I would normally have met with my current therapist after our last session. [00:46:08] Brett: So I kind of have like no break in therapy. But my new therapist actually has a psychology PhD and multiple, um, master’s degrees in like trauma therapy and things that I think are going to be really good for me, which leads to the second part of this. Um, L discovered, and I don’t remember how they got there, but, um, they sent me an article about complex PTSD [00:46:39] Jeff: Mm [00:46:40] Brett: and I’m looking at it and I’m reading the symptoms of complex PTSD. [00:46:44] Brett: And I’m like, I think I have every single one of these. I think, I think all of this applies to me. And then I get to the causes and it’s mostly like, uh, childhood abuse. Uh, but the last cause is. Defecting from an [00:47:00] authoritarian religion. So I look up authoritarian religion and fundamentalist evangelical Christianity qualifies as authoritarian religion. [00:47:10] Brett: So everything falls into place. And I ended up looking into, uh, something called religious trauma or. Religious trauma syndrome, RTS, and I realized, and it’s closely tied to complex PTSD, and I realized, oh my God, this is exactly this. And the symptoms of it explain, explain my bipolar. They explain how, how I became bipolar. They explain the emotional dysregulation that is part of bipolar. And it also explains a lot of my attention deficit problems. [00:47:47] Brett: Um, like my ADHD could be tied to religious trauma syndrome in my case. And like the more, cause like, it’s all about, you grow up as a. As a [00:48:00] young child convinced that any mistake is going to send you to hell for eternity. And I can remember as a young child, having it explained to me that in hell, your flesh painfully burns off your body and then regrows so it can burn again. [00:48:17] Brett: over and over forever. And like, this is a terrifying thought. And this isn’t in the Bible. This is shit. They made up whole cloth to scare kids. But I spent my childhood in this constant state of fight or flight and never developed like secure attachments with my family. And then like in my high school years, realizing I was queer. [00:48:41] Brett: Realizing I was pansexual and spending nights trying to pray the gay away and like just constantly sure that I was going to hell and my friends were all going to hell and it was my job to save them. Like I remember being sent to be to like proselytize to my friends [00:49:00] and if they wouldn’t join my church, I needed to not be friends with them like this shit piled up. [00:49:06] Brett: And I could tell you story after story about how scared I was as a kid, but I think that illustrates it pretty well. And all of my emotional dysregulation as an adult, all of my inability to develop like secure attachments with partners and with other people, like it all makes sense now. So I’m going to my. [00:49:28] Brett: new therapist with like all of this under my belt looking for like an actual diagnosis, of course. Um, but like, I don’t see any way this couldn’t be an official diagnosis. RTS isn’t in the DSM, um, but complex PTSD is. So I could get that official diagnosis and it, it, it just explains so much. It, it, it, like my whole life makes sense now. [00:49:56] Jeff: My, uh, my, yeah. Especially when you think about, [00:50:00] um, the relationship between p PTSD and hypervigilance. And I know you’re talking about complex ptsd, um, which I also have experience with like, um, I’m yeah, I was hearing you talk and I’m just like, man, because when you’re a kid that is real, like that’s real, real, real, real. [00:50:17] Jeff: It’s not like, I mean, yeah, that’s, that’s incredible. I’m so glad you’re, um, able to sort of name that because even as you said the thing about burning flesh and regrowing, it’s like imagining hearing that as a kid and, and I remember things like that, that I believe to be true and then that felt real. [00:50:36] Brett: Well, and I’m in this state right now of like, like certain recent events like sent me into a trauma reaction and like just this four days on end this panic elevated heart rate nervous system freaking out, just constant state of hyper vigilance and, and fear and, and [00:51:00] like, Thank you. Uh, having this name to put to it, didn’t necessarily stop that from happening. [00:51:06] Brett: Uh, but there’s a certain comfort to knowing what’s going on. [00:51:11] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. [00:51:13] Brett: One of the ways that I decided to deal with this, like I was going to quit drinking for 30 days. Um, and, and that seemed, that seemed wise, but once I realized. How much trauma I was actually dealing with taking away my one crutch I had before seeing a therapist seemed ill advised. [00:51:34] Brett: So, so I have, I have continued drinking in moderation, uh, for the time being, but I got out my treadmill at my desk and I have been walking three to five miles a day on my treadmill. And like working up a sweat and it has been very healthy side story. Um, bod, my remaining cat. Um, when I’m sitting at my desk, she [00:52:00] likes to come. [00:52:00] Brett: She gets in front of me on my desk, puts her paws on my chest, and then I’ll like scoop her up and, and let her like lay on my belly while I work. And, um, when I’m on my treadmill, she does not understand that I don’t have a lap anymore. And she. She will come up to the edge of my desk and put her paws, both paws, on my chest as I’m walking. [00:52:23] Brett: So she’s kind of unstable to begin with, but she’ll just sit there. So I started scooping her up and like holding her in my arm across my chest and like petting her while walking on the treadmill. Which she is cool with, surprisingly cool with, despite the constant motion. But when I eventually she’ll get a little bit uncomfortable, like she’ll push against me, I’ll set her back down on the desk. [00:52:47] Brett: She has learned my treadmill has a control panel that’s on top of the desk and it has a safety key, like a magnetic safety key that you’re supposed to like clip to you. So if you fall off the treadmill, it stops it. [00:53:00] Um, but it just, it’s just stuck in there. She figured out. Very quickly that taking that key out, stop the treadmill and got her lots of attention at the same time. [00:53:12] Brett: So now every time I set her down, I have to like protect the key in the treadmill because it’s the first thing she’ll do once she gets set down is try to stop the treadmill by removing the key. It’s been very, it’s been very entertaining. It, it makes my heart full to see her so smart and understand like how to get attention. [00:53:33] Jeff: That’s amazing. [00:53:35] Christina: I love it. [00:53:36] Jeff: Hehehehe. Oh, wow, that’s a lot of big stuff, Brett. My, my, my, uh, wife went to seminary and, um, not to be a minister. And actually doesn’t identify as a Christian, but as a progressive. Seminary, Union Theological Seminary in New York. And what she came out of that being most sort of concerned about and interested in was the idea of religious trauma. [00:53:57] Jeff: And so when she became a therapist, like that’s [00:54:00] always something that she, she stands ready to address. And oftentimes therapists are not, they don’t have the background or the interest or the template. So [00:54:11] Brett: Yeah. I’m really hoping my, I’m really, my new therapist was to do trauma informed therapy. I don’t know specifically that she has a religious trauma syndrome experience, but I have high [00:54:24] Christina: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, mean, even if it’s not like under like that exact like, um, like name, um, because as you said, that’s not in the DSM four, um, I think that, uh, religion, um, uh, it’s, it’s, I have to think probably one of the more common like trauma causes for people who are not in like a war or abuse situation because it is, [00:54:44] Brett: given the extent of evangelical Christianity in the U. [00:54:48] Christina: well, I was going to say in. [00:54:48] Brett: be a pretty [00:54:49] Christina: Well, I was just going to say, but you know, not even that, I mean, like, because, because you could honestly apply it to like many, many religions, um, are do these things, right? Like, uh, it’s [00:55:00] not just evangelical Christianity can be parts of, uh, you know, uh, Catholicism. There are sects of Judaism, um, uh, parts of Islam, you know, things that every religion have very, very, um, uh, like, uh, yes, I mean that, that, that’s the whole thing, like the line between like where we as a society draw the line between a cult. [00:55:19] Christina: And religion is so faint and it really, and it’s usually time is the differentiator, right? Um, time and for some reason, like influence and money, because like, it’s interesting to me. I’m, I’m not going to say what I’m thinking. Um, I, I don’t want to potentially offend people. Um, but anyway, um, [00:55:42] Brett: I, I hung out with, like, I met this, this guy, uh, an older gay man. Uh, in La Crosse, Wisconsin, which is about 30 minutes from me and, uh, I took him out for drinks and like, I had just discovered this religious trauma syndrome thing. So like [00:56:00] we sit down for drinks and the first thing I have to say is like, I, so here’s what happened to me this morning. [00:56:06] Brett: I just found out about this religious trauma syndrome and I barely know the guy, but he’s immediately like, yeah, I grew up Mormon. [00:56:14] Christina: Yes. Yeah, I, [00:56:15] Brett: I know how you feel right [00:56:17] Christina: I, I was, I was going to make a comment about, about, about, um, the, the Latter day Saints and I’m an analogy to another group. I’m not going to, I’m just not going to [00:56:26] Brett: but you’re, you’re, you’re defining that line between cult and religion for [00:56:30] Christina: It’s very faint and, and it’s, um, You know, and so, and especially, uh, I mean, and again, I think this is a global thing. [00:56:38] Christina: Like I think you have people all over the place, but since, you know, we are, uh, uh, Western and like, we are, especially in the United States, like we are a country that literally was like founded by puritanical, like religious, like people, like, like, like, like religious liberty is one of the foundations. of our country, um, either the ability to have religion or not, to be clear, most of our, our [00:57:00] founding fathers were not devout anything, they were theists if, if anything, but they were not, uh, you know, like most of them were not like overly religious. [00:57:08] Christina: Um, uh, and. I think as a result of that, like that’s been such a common part of, um, our culture. And then if you look like just globally, like religion is such a common part of community. I think that it’d be impossible to not have that be a huge contributor to trauma in many regards. So, uh, which was a very, very long way of saying, even if she doesn’t know this specific thing, um, she probably, I’m sure has experienced dealing with people who have gone through very traumatic experiences because of. [00:57:40] Christina: You know, their, their religious upbringing. [00:57:42] Brett: you would think so. [00:57:44] Jeff: Yeah. [00:57:44] Grapptitude [00:57:44] Brett: Should we try to fit in a Graptitude? [00:57:47] Jeff: to dude. [00:57:49] Brett: Do you guys have, [00:57:50] Christina: I, I have one. Um, if, do you, do you have one, um, Jeff or Brett? [00:57:55] Brett: Yeah, I can kick it off. Mine is not a specific app and I [00:58:00] can’t actually speak to. So. Set app recently released a beta with an AI search engine so you can use basically chat chat GPT to discover new apps, which I think is a brilliant move as part of the marketing for this, they highlighted apps on set up that use AI and there are three that have them. [00:58:31] Brett: Been interesting to me, there’s Eliphas, E L E P H A S, uh, which is like an AI writing assistant. Um, there’s one called Plus, which is working with text using AI. And TypingMind, which is use the new chat UI to chat with AI. And I’ve tried Eliphas, it’s, it’s cool. It’s, there are a lot of like, chat GBT. Apps out there that will assist you with like finish you write a [00:59:00] paragraph and then let it like continue your paragraph into a whole piece or, uh, you give it an email and say, respond positively or negatively to this email. [00:59:10] Brett: And it is it. It is included with set app. So it’s free to set up users. Um, and does a great job with that. I haven’t tried plus or typing mind yet. Uh, they also highlight craft Canary mail, Luminar Neo. Photos revived task heat and structured as all incorporating, uh, AI to some extent. So, um, I was just going to say my, my pick for the week is AI on set app. [00:59:38] Brett: There are a lot of apps that are worth exploring, especially if you already have a set up subscription and if you don’t, [00:59:46] Jeff: Which you [00:59:47] Brett: maybe it’s worth it. [00:59:48] Christina: Yeah, yeah, I’d mentioned, uh, TypingMind, which is one of the, the apps they have, like, that was one of my picks of the week a few weeks ago, [00:59:55] Brett: Yeah. Okay. [00:59:56] Christina: and that’s, that’s like a, basically like a chat GBT front end, what I like about it, [01:00:00] or, or Anthropic, what I like about it is that you can actually bring your own um, Um, open a I, uh, I think they give you a certain number of, of things for free from set up to, to use it. [01:00:10] Christina: But if you have a, an open AI API, uh, key, you can use that too. And, and I do, I also, I’ve been paying for chat GPT plus, but I might actually cancel that subscription and just keep. Paying as you go for the open AI stuff. Um, uh, I’ve been looking, I haven’t seen anything yet. Llama 2, uh, meta announced that this week and that is their new, um, large language model, um, that they’ve basically made, um, um, uh, freely available. [01:00:39] Christina: Uh, it’s not, it’s technically not open source, but, uh, as long as you have under 700 million global, um, uh, or monthly average users, um, you can use it for free for commercial or research purposes and you can host it locally. Or you can like, like Azure, uh, is going to have like a hosted, um, or already has like a hosted version and there’s, [01:01:00] um, AWS or whatever hugging face. [01:01:02] Christina: But, um, I, I haven’t looked super closely yet to see if people are, have, cause it’s, it’s a whole, it’s, it’s, it’s like GPT 3. 5 is, is, um, what a lot of people are comparing it to. And so I’m. Um, you know, uh, like hugging, um, face has created a chat bot and there’ve been some other things, but I haven’t, I haven’t seen like a good Mac front end yet for some of the tools people have done, but I’m keeping my eye, my eye out for that. [01:01:29] Christina: And I think that that’s going to become the big thing that we see a lot of people, uh, implementing because it is free, um, or freely available, you know? So a lot of people I think are going to be using that as kind of their, their backend for, um, A lot of these projects, uh, moving forward, I expect that we’ll see a big explosion [01:01:48] Brett: So if you get, if you get more than what, what is that arbitrary 700 million, [01:01:54] Christina: I mean, cause it was, it was [01:01:55] Brett: they, will they price you out at that point? [01:01:58] Christina: you have to have a special license from [01:02:00] them is what they say. [01:02:00] Brett: Sure. But you would think like once you have 700 million users, you would be able to charge a reasonable amount to pay a reasonable fee to use [01:02:08] Christina: it’s very clearly designed to target two companies specifically, uh, the first being Snapchat and the second being TikTok, because those have over 700 million users. [01:02:18] Brett: Dude, I just figured out what Snapchat is for. It took me this long to realize it’s all about sexting. Like, I never, I never understood this. I didn’t know this. I, I just, I set up my, I know, right? Like, it seems so obvious when you realize it, but like, everyone kept asking me, Are you on Snapchat? [01:02:39] Brett: Are you on Snapchat? And I’m like, no. So I finally, I set up an account, and like, this doesn’t make any sense. All my shit disappears, like, as soon as I send it. And then some… Some guy sends me a dick pic and I’m like, [01:02:50] Jeff: want this? [01:02:50] Brett: I’m like, wait, no. Now I understand what this is for, [01:02:54] Christina: god damn, okay, this is, I’m, welcome, welcome to 2012, Brett.[01:03:00] [01:03:00] Brett: right? [01:03:01] Jeff: Yeah, you’re going to love it. You’re going to love [01:03:04] Brett: guys, you guys missed my birthday. I just turned 45. I have [01:03:08] Jeff: didn’t say happy birthday. [01:03:09] Brett: I [01:03:09] Christina: know, I know. We had Happy birthday. Happy birthday. We love you. [01:03:12] Brett: I have a lot to learn. Uh, Snapchat is very new to me. Um, I’ve made, I’ve made some surprisingly good friends there. [01:03:22] Christina: Oh yeah, [01:03:22] Brett: I’ll, I’ll leave it at that. [01:03:25] Jeff: Christine and I both wished you happy birthday the day [01:03:27] Christina: we did. [01:03:28] Brett: You did. [01:03:28] Christina: then we forgot the day [01:03:30] Brett: So, so, so many people can’t, I don’t know how it got into everyone’s calendar as being on [01:03:36] Jeff: No, it’s because you put up your fundraiser ahead of time. [01:03:40] Brett: yeah, that fundraiser went well. I, I got all the funding I was hoping for, for the Warehouse Alliance. [01:03:48] Jeff: Awesome. [01:03:48] Brett: Uh, and then some, so, thanks to everyone who contributed. [01:03:53] Christina: I did not see anything on Facebook, so I apologize. I did not contribute. If I had known, I would have, but I don’t, I don’t use Facebook because, [01:03:59] Brett: it’s [01:04:00] surprisingly, [01:04:00] Christina: I know what Snapchat is for [01:04:02] Brett: the largest, so, so, [01:04:04] Christina: so I’m, so, I’m a, I’m, I’m not the right Facebook age. Sorry. Go on. [01:04:08] Brett: The largest contributions to my fundraiser came from people who have no connection. So the warehouse is, uh, in La Crosse, Wisconsin. It’s, uh, it’s an all ages nightclub. Um, I’ve had the owner, uh, proprietor of the warehouse on Systematic before. And basically his mission for over 30 years now has just been to give kids a safe place. [01:04:31] Brett: It’s a drug and alcohol free music venue, uh, that keeps kid off the streets. Uh, he’s, he’s launched like dozens of bands that have gone on to great fame that grew up as warehouse kids. And I grew up as a warehouse kid and he, a while back became a nonprofit and, uh, called the warehouse Alliance. And the goal is just to keep the place running [01:05:00] and to keep kids off the street and give, uh, Angsty, queer, like kids who don’t fit in anywhere else a place to go. [01:05:08] Brett: And that’s always been important to me. So that’s what I picked for the last few years as my fundraiser. And the people who have donated the most are people who have no connection to lacrosse or to the warehouse. And like, they read the mission statement and they’re like, yeah, this makes sense. So it’s been heartening to, to see the donations come in. [01:05:29] Christina: That’s [01:05:29] Jeff: That’s great. That’s great. [01:05:32] Brett: All right, Jeff, what you got? [01:05:33] Jeff: Uh, okay. So in the past, I’ve talked about an app called who to spot. We all, I think we all have at some point, um, which is just this amazing app for, for locating files, especially if you have a, you know, 20 year digital mess like I do. Um, and I, I also have used forever, but have just been using it again, uh, an app that’s a, that called Tembo, which is the Swahili word from L for elephant, which I now know drives. [01:05:59] Jeff: [01:06:00] Um, And, and Tembo is amazing. It feels more like a finder window, but you, you type in what you’re looking for and it groups everything [01:06:07] Brett: Also from Huda, right? [01:06:09] Jeff: from Huda. Sorry. That’s, so that’s also their app and it’s very cheap. It’s like 15 bucks. Um, and, and what I will say is like, what’s amazing about it is I had. [01:06:17] Jeff: I had gotten so used to using who to spot that I’d forgotten how, like, if you’re just looking for, if it’s not like a really intense file search, like that’s a lot of, uh, it’s just, there’s a lot going on to just find a file that like you could find pretty quickly, maybe even in finder, but I need, but you need something like slightly more powerful. [01:06:35] Jeff: And so just like a couple of things that I really love about Tembo is first of all, you can like. It’s similar to finder. You can like, you can actually say how you want your results grouped. Like, you know, you want to see contacts, you want to see images, you want to see messages, whatever it is. Right. They, they also work with Apple mail really nicely. [01:06:51] Jeff: Um, but then they’re like keyboard shortcuts. So like, if I search something like, uh, you know, I work with a client, if I search that client’s, uh, name, [01:07:00] um, I will, I will see everything, but then there’s keyboard shortcuts to be like, just show me today, just show me the last week, just show me yesterday, whatever. [01:07:07] Jeff: Right. So you can just drill down into stuff really quickly. And the feature I love the most is that like so many of these, um, apps or services, you can, you can exclude files, right? But it has a group at the very bottom that is your search results from your excluded files or, or your excuse excluded areas. [01:07:26] Jeff: And, and I think that’s brilliant. Like, I know I don’t want to see these things, I think, but I can always like scroll all the way down and be like, Oh, there is something in my excluded files. Um, so anyway, Tembo is amazing. It’s super like a lightweight, but super powerful app. And even if you use who to spot, like this is a great, like a great reminder that like you only need sometimes like one, one hundredth of what who to spot can do, um, and that’s still a lot. [01:07:52] Brett: Yeah. [01:07:53] Jeff: So anyway, Tembo is my, my pick from the good people at who does software. [01:07:57] Christina: Nice, nice. All right. [01:08:00] Well, my pick is Orbstack, which is at a Orbstack, O R B S T A C K dot dev. And, uh, this is, it uses Kalima under the hood, which is a like container, um, Linux, like a runtime thing for, um, um. Mac OS, which basically is like a kind of, kind of a replacement stack for, um, doing something like docker desktop and, um, what I like about orb stack is that it’s, it’s a really, really good looking kind of like interface. [01:08:33] Christina: It’s kind of like a nice, like docker desktop alternative and kind of an all in one app that basically, um, they don’t have Cooper 90 support yet, but it’s coming really good way to like manage, you know, like, like, um, you know, containers or, or, or VMs. Um, And, um, I discovered this recently and I really, really like it. [01:08:52] Christina: It’s, it’s a nicely native app. The, uh, it’s, it’s in public beta right now. It’s free. They’re going to have some sort of pricing plan. I’m not sure what [01:09:00] it’s going to be, but it’s going to be reasonable. It might even be free for most people. I think the main developer on this is like a teenager, but he’s incredibly talented, incredibly good. [01:09:09] Christina: I actually love that. Like that, that [01:09:11] Jeff: Yeah, that’s great. [01:09:12] Christina: part of it makes me feel old, but part of it also is like, it gets me excited because I’m like, the, the, the teens are still doing it. Right. Like they’re, they’re still building and doing really good stuff. And so, um, uh, Orbstack, if you’ve been looking for a replacement to Docker desktop, cause Docker desktop at this point is kind of a shit show. [01:09:28] Christina: And Docker as a company has made a lot of, of issues. This runs on both Apple Silicon and on Intel, which is great. And, um, I, uh, I really like it. So Orbstack [01:09:39] Brett: and it works with docker images, [01:09:41] Christina: Yeah, it does. Yeah, exactly. It’s just, it’s kind of an alternative front end, but it runs it. It’s like, it’s runs it like it’s native. [01:09:46] Christina: Like the memory footprint is so much better. Like it’s really, really good. [01:09:51] Brett: I’m looking at the stats. These benchmarks are crazy. Oh my god. Thank you for sharing this. I Am a hundred percent switching to this [01:10:00] Docker just stopped running on Synology’s [01:10:04] Christina: Yeah. I saw [01:10:05] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:10:07] Brett: like the whole reason I bought the 15, 20, whatever I bought, uh, was to run Docker images on my Synology and they just all suddenly stopped working. [01:10:20] Jeff: Ugh. Yeah, people run a lot of docker [01:10:23] Christina: I was going to say, yeah, I have, I have a bunch of Docker containers running our technology. So is this just like a thing that just like, like that, that happened? Like, do you need to update the software or what? [01:10:32] Brett: last DSM update for Synology stopped Docker from working for me. [01:10:39] Christina: Oh damn, that sucks. [01:10:41] Brett: Yeah, I like I do. I don’t understand [01:10:44] Christina: you should, you should either go to the Sonology subreddit or you should, like, report them a thing. But I bet if you put it in the subreddit I bet people will help you figure it out. [01:10:51] Brett: Yeah, I’ll look into it. But this is awesome for like, because I run Docker on a Mac [01:11:00] mini 2012 Mac mini in my basement. And, um, and like, I mostly use it to run like my VPN workarounds and everything. But this would be Way easier on my system, um, on a, on a 2012 Mac mini with like 16 gigabytes of RAM. Um, it could use this, um, by the way, um, Mac mini colo, which became Mac stadium, uh, which is a co location service where you can like basically rent a Mac [01:11:34] Christina: Or it was, they don’t let they, they don’t let you co-locate anymore. I, I noticed Yes. The other [01:11:38] Brett: really. [01:11:39] Christina: Yeah. [01:11:40] Brett: But anyway, they have this surplus of Mac minis, uh, like 2012, 2016 Mac minis, um, that you can go to a place called orchard resales and, uh, and you can pick up like a 2012 Mac mini maxed out, which is like a terabyte [01:12:00] of storage and 16 gigabytes of Ram, and you can pick it up for a hundred bucks. [01:12:05] Christina: Huh? [01:12:06] Brett: And so if you’re looking for a really good like little server, like media server or whatever for your home, uh, orchard resales, and I’ll put it in the [01:12:16] Jeff: I’m searching Orchard Resales and I’m [01:12:18] Christina: I wasn’t either, but I found out it, it, it is orchard resales.com. [01:12:22] Jeff: Uh, okay, [01:12:23] Christina: I have, I have the same problem. Yeah. You can get, you can get like a, uh, a, a 2014. Mac mini with like a dual core, like, um, 2. 8, I five for like a hundred bucks with, with, with, um, [01:12:38] Jeff: That’s awesome. [01:12:38] Christina: 105 if you get it with an SSD. Yeah. [01:12:41] Brett: and I can tell you these machines, once you put an SSD in them are excellent little home servers. And it is an insanely good price for, for gently used Mac minis. Um, he’s actually sponsoring my blog next week. [01:12:59] Christina: That’s awesome. [01:12:59] Brett: [01:13:00] Um, it’s not officially related to, uh, Mac Manicolo or Mac Stadium, just to be clear. Um, but he, he is, he is selling off. [01:13:11] Brett: I don’t even know how many he has in stock, but enough to make it worth sponsoring my blog, [01:13:16] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. [01:13:18] Brett: yeah, [01:13:19] Christina: That’s great. Yeah, because, because honestly, at this point, like, I’m not sure what the latest version of Mac OS you can run on those [01:13:25] Brett: I think it’s Big Sur, [01:13:26] Christina: Yeah, but like, honestly, put Linux on it. Like, like, like, honestly, like, for what most people are going to use it for, like, that’s probably what I would buy it and use it for. [01:13:39] Christina: Like, I love Mac OS. But if I was going to be running Docker and things on it, like, I’m not gonna, you know what I mean? Like, I would I would be like, hey, this is, [01:13:46] Brett: Docker, Docker and Plex and whatever. What’s the QNAP? Is that the alternative [01:13:53] Christina: jellies, the alternative plex. [01:13:55] Brett: to, no, to, to [01:13:56] Christina: Testonology, yes, it’s QNAP, yeah. [01:13:58] Brett: QNAP. Yeah. [01:14:00] Like you could probably run a lot of the QNAP. [01:14:02] Christina: Packages. [01:14:03] Brett: yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, great little, great little machines for a hundred bucks. [01:14:09] Christina: that’s awesome. Yeah. I’m like looking at this now. I’m like tempted. I’m like, do I need to do this? Cause I’ve been, I’ve, [01:14:14] Brett: Do I need another Mac mini [01:14:15] Christina: well, I was going to say, cause we’ve got a lot and we have old servers. Cause what I’ve been looking at wanting to do is I’m just going to quick tangent, um, uh, before we end the episode, um, I’ve been looking at, so there’s this, uh, there’s this website and this YouTube channel called, um, what is it called? [01:14:30] Christina: I think it’s called serve the home. Um, and, um, and, uh, yeah. Yeah, serve the home. And, and I really liked the, the guy’s YouTube channel. Um, I like his website too, but he’s been doing like this whole series for a couple of years on like what he calls like, um, Mac, like, like, like, like mini micro, um, like ultra or something basically looks at like one liter size PCs. [01:14:57] Christina: And, um, so there are a lot of [01:15:00] workstation computers that you can get used for really good prices that are really, really like basically like. You know, like even like, like 12th gen Intel’s, you know, really powerful, uh, machines that you could get for like 500 bucks that you could basically turn into like, almost like legit, you know, like servers. [01:15:16] Christina: Um, and, and they, they fit in like, you know, but they’re super tiny, tiny mini micro, that’s what his project is called. And it’s basically. [01:15:23] Brett: micro. [01:15:23] Jeff: mini [01:15:24] Christina: And it’s like basically like his, his, his project of trying to like turn like a one liter PC into a server. And so he covers, you know, a lot of the different software and things you can do, how you can find good deals on these things because enterprises buy these and then cycle through them really quickly. [01:15:39] Christina: And if you, you can put a lot of RAM in them and connect them to like, you know, either a NAS or something else that you can do a lot. So I’ve been, I’ve been toying with the idea of getting one of those to use as a server thing. But the Mac mini is also tempting. [01:15:52] Brett: Yeah. All right. Well, honestly, we didn’t cover hardly [01:16:00] any pop culture. [01:16:01] Christina: next episode we can talk about Barbenheimer if I, especially if I, if [01:16:05] Jeff: Oh, I’ll try to get there by [01:16:07] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I, cause I did Barbenheimer this weekend and I have thoughts, but I would love to talk about either or both films with, uh, with, with you guys, uh, [01:16:15] Brett: Yeah. I would love that. Um, I feel like our focus on mental health, this episode is definitely going to have a title related to mental [01:16:23] Christina: I mean, honestly, I think it’s just Jeopardy called Mental Health Corner. [01:16:26] Brett: I, I tend to agree. I think, I think by the time anyone listens to this, they’ll already know that that’s the case. [01:16:33] Christina: ha ha. [01:16:33] Brett: All right, you guys, thanks. Thanks. Welcome back, [01:16:37] Christina: Welcome back, [01:16:38] Jeff: you. Get some sleep. [01:16:39] Brett: Get some sleep. [01:17:00]

Brett, Christina, and Bryan Guffey talk about the social network landscape, a bit of TV, and some Grapptitude picks to love. Show Links Two Headed Girl Huberman Lab The Bear Threads Bluesky Hijack Stream Deck Pedal S3 Files SQLPro Studio Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript The (Social) Wild West [00:00:00] Brett: Hey there, friendly listeners, you are tuned in too. Overtired, this is Brett Terpstra. I am here as always with Christina Warren. Um, Jeff is currently in Africa, so filling in for Jeff. We have Brian Guffy, friend of the show. Long time connection, silky smooth voice. How’s it going, Brian? [00:00:29] Bryan: That’s for Jeff. I can do it because I’m black. [00:00:36] Brett: Um, but yeah. Okay. Um, [00:00:41] Bryan: just popped into my head. Yeah, no, I’m good. Um, it’s, it’s Saturday after the, you know, a week in which the 4th of July is on a Tuesday is one of the weirdest weeks in existence. [00:00:55] Christina: Yes, I [00:00:56] Brett: guys have to work Monday? [00:00:58] Christina: um, I took the whole week off. [00:00:59] Brett: [00:01:00] Oh wow. [00:01:00] Bryan: Smart. We got Sonos. Sonos gave everybody Monday off, so that was great. Yeah. [00:01:07] Brett: I, um, I technically worked Monday, but I didn’t work. Um, nobody scheduled any meetings, so I just kind of like kept Slack, giving me notifications all day, but went hiking instead. Um, I do have, I have a two week vacation coming up. [00:01:27] Bryan: Ooh, [00:01:27] Brett: It’s gonna be nice. [00:01:28] Bryan: where are you going? Are you going somewhere or are you staying at home? Yeah. [00:01:32] Brett: For me, uh, for me, an ideal vacation is doing nothing. [00:01:36] Brett: Um, I, I may be headed to Chicago. I might try to make it to the, uh, Midwest barbecue that happens right before Max Stock. Um, I’m not gonna make it to Max stock itself this year, but it would be cool to go see all my, uh, all my podcaster friends that show up there and everything. [00:01:54] Bryan: Yeah, I need to get out to Chicago cause I, apparently it’s impossible to do [00:02:00] a regular podcast with Alex. Um, uh, but I would like to see them in person. [00:02:06] Christina: Yeah. [00:02:07] Brett: Yeah. What [00:02:08] Bryan: queer is on infinite hiatus, [00:02:10] Brett: oh, that sucks. [00:02:11] Bryan: but that’s partially because Alex has had like so many cat issues. [00:02:17] Brett: Okay. [00:02:18] Bryan: So it’s just been really hard. Like they just have been like dealing with sick cat and so it’s just been struggling to find a time and then Quinn has had to go back into the office. [00:02:27] Bryan: Um, and yeah. We’ll, we’ll get there. We haven’t given it up. [00:02:33] Brett: on our last road trip, uh, l and I binged, um, two-headed girl and it was, it was delightful. I feel like I got to know Alex and Maddie really well. [00:02:45] Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. [00:02:48] Mental Health Corner [00:02:48] Brett: Um, so should we do a little mental health check-in? Are you guys. Prepared to bury your souls for the, the listening public. [00:02:58] Christina: Sure. [00:02:59] Bryan: sure. [00:03:00] I’ve already bared my ass for the public, so why not? [00:03:02] Brett: I’m gonna have a glass of wine while you guys talk for a second. Go ahead. [00:03:07] Christina: Do, do you wanna start, Brian? Guess first. [00:03:09] Bryan: Um, sure. Um, my mental health is, Uh, like in that unsure Okay. Space where, so about a, about maybe a month ago, my therapist and I made a realization or I made a realization that a thing that I thought that I had like processed that was a trauma in my life, I had not processed at all and was still like, undergirding so much of like my, um, you know, like instinctual reactions. [00:03:51] Bryan: And so I’ve been doing a lot of work on like, when I get body snatched back into like trauma land, like regrounding [00:04:00] myself. Um, and it’s going mostly okay, but it’s like, it’s still trying to like, like every, every time I don’t land it effectively, it’s still feels like a big failure. [00:04:14] Brett: Sure. [00:04:14] Bryan: Now I’m paying attention to it. [00:04:16] Bryan: Um, so, you know, it’s in that space of like, uh, I mean I think we’ve got the thing to work on, but also it’s just like really exhausting. And because of course it’s like relational, um, like it’s just even harder. Like it was just a thing for me and myself. I, like, I wouldn’t have to worry about like my impact on other people, but it’s like me in relation to another person when, where the issues come. [00:04:43] Bryan: So, and then of course [00:04:45] Brett: So hard. [00:04:46] Bryan: yeah, and then the other thing is like, we might have to reschedule vacation plans because, um, after I got my job at Sonos last year, I thought I was rich and then was [00:05:00] irresponsible with money. And it turns out that flying to Portugal and Spain is kind of expensive. [00:05:08] Brett: Yeah. [00:05:09] Bryan: So, you know, we’re working through things, but like overall, like day to day I feel pretty good. [00:05:14] Bryan: Um, you know, just it’s, you know, it’s like, it’s like you never know when the wave is gonna hit, so. [00:05:21] Brett: Yeah. All right. Well, I actually will go next because that, that struck a lot of chords for me. Um, I am, uh, first off, well, okay, let me do this in an order that makes sense. Um, I am going through some stuff in my own relationship right now that is making me examine like every single one of my insecurities. [00:05:46] Brett: And one thing that has come up hardcore is religious trauma that I have these, like, like intellectually I believe one thing and I believe people should be one way. Uh, but my upbringing [00:06:00] like. Rails against that. So I have what my brain says and what my mouth says to my partner should be true. And then when things become real, like I have these deep seated emotional, uh, like physical reactions to certain situations and, and I’ve been able to trace it back to like things that were instilled in me, uh, like under threat of hell, uh, as a child. [00:06:28] Brett: And, um, and I discussed some of this with my therapist who was impressed that I had figured out where it came from, but couldn’t do shit to help me. Uh, so I have a, uh, an appointment with a new therapist in three weeks, um, that I’m looking forward to. It’s, it’s a woman. I feel like I’m gonna relate better to a woman than this. [00:06:51] Brett: Bro, dude that I’ve been seeing, um, uh, I’m looking, I’m looking forward to that. I’m hoping that she will be able to [00:07:00] work with me on some of this because it does, like, it’s not just me. Like I’m really happy. Like I hate that this happened, right? I hate, I hate that this is happening in my relationship. It sucks. [00:07:11] Brett: It hurts. Like it feels shitty, but also, like, I had no idea I felt this way. I had no idea I would react this way. And, um, the fact that this got brought to the surface, yeah, it sucks, it shitty, but now I can deal with it. Uh, and now it can grow in a way that I didn’t even realize I needed to grow. So, so it’s, you know, it’s a mixed bag. [00:07:35] Brett: We’ll call it a mixed bag. [00:07:37] Christina: Well, I mean, I’m, I’m glad to hear that at least. Um, so I’m gonna be the downer. My mental health is pretty shit right now, to be honest. Um, that’s, that’s one of the reasons why I haven’t been that active on social, because this is what I do, um, when my, uh, mental health is bad. Like there’s only so much, like I still have to do my day job and I still have to like, be able to pseudo [00:08:00] function as a human. [00:08:01] Christina: And there are only so many cycles and things you can do. And like, um, my way of, of masking is, is not, uh, It’s not like, I guess, um, you know, people who are on the spectrum sort of way. It’s a little bit different. It’s more like I have to like mask that I’m not depressed. And, and so, I mean, it’s similar but it’s, it’s, it’s a different type of thing. [00:08:20] Christina: And so there’s just, there’s only so much energy you can expand with that. So mine has been pretty shit. This the reason I took this past week off, which was really good. Uh, I just, just took the whole week, uh, for mental health reasons because I’m not in a great space and I’m not performing and I’m not doing well and it’s kind of gotta that point. [00:08:36] Christina: So I’m not doing great, but having the week off was, was really good. And, um, I’m hoping, um, I have a, my next, uh, appointment with my shrink is in I think like a week and a half. And when we talked last time, he mentioned to me, There are some new antidepressants that are similar to, uh, ketamine because [00:09:00] they, they do similar things and it’s like based on, on, um, uh, similar, uh, like pharmacological stuff, but it’s not ketamine, so it’s much easier so you can actually take it orally. [00:09:11] Christina: And so, uh, there, there’s like one, um, drug, uh, that got approved by the F D A last August. So it’s been on the market for a year now. And, and the, the studies and the papers are all really good. And so I’m gonna talk to him about trying that and seeing if that sort of thing could help. Cause I think I’m at the point now where my, my medication isn’t working and I’ve been in denial about that for a really long time, like a really long time. [00:09:33] Christina: And it’s gotten to the point where I’m just like, I, I can’t be in denial about this anymore. [00:09:39] Bryan: Yeah. Well sending you, [00:09:42] Christina: that’s the upside. [00:09:44] Bryan: sending you lots of love and hugs. I know this is so hard. Um, and, but I am so proud of you for doing the things that you need to do to take care of yourself. [00:09:54] Christina: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. No, and it’s hard because I’m, you know, I’m [00:10:00] public and in insofar as like, I obviously do this podcast and I’ve never lied or hidden, you know, like my, my mental health struggles, but it’s not my brand and it’s not the thing that I wanna be known for. And I respect people who do wanna like, make that what they’re known for and really wanna advocate for that. [00:10:15] Christina: I really respect that, but that’s not me. And so it’s always weird when it, you know, when I feel like I’ve reached a place where I’m like, okay, this is actually impeding my life in a way that I now have to, you know, like, uh, talk about it with people both publicly and then also like my colleagues. Which that honestly sucks more than talking about it with strangers listening to your podcast or with your friends over the internet. [00:10:42] Christina: Like that’s, that’s the real shit, you know, because it’s, it’s fine when it’s an abstract. And I think a lot of people who you work with are fine with it as an abstract. You really see how people react and how people really feel when it actually like, could potentially impact them or [00:11:00] when how it’s impacting you is something that they have to, you know, grapple with. [00:11:04] Christina: Like that, that’s, that that’s the real truth, you know? Cause everybody I think thinks, oh yeah, I’m, I’m fine with this sort of thing. And then you’re, maybe you are, and some places really are. And, and some, uh, employers. And employees really, coworkers really are, and some people really aren’t. So that’s, that’s, that’s always the [00:11:22] Brett: until you’re, until you’re confronted with the reality, you might not even know [00:11:27] Christina: Yep. [00:11:27] Brett: how, how you feel about something. So I, I can, I can tie our two together in that way. Um, have you ever heard the Huberman Lab? [00:11:37] Christina: No. [00:11:38] Brett: It’s a podcast with this. Guy, I don’t know if he’s like a neuroscientist or, but he does like extensive research into like medications and talks about like, brain science. [00:11:50] Brett: And the last one is about like eye health, but he, it’s like a solo podcast. It’s just him like sharing research and, and talking. [00:12:00] Uh, occasionally he’ll have guests, but, um, I, I would recommend that, I’m gonna drop that in the show notes. He did a, he did an awesome episode on, uh, ketamine and hallucinogenic treatments, and he did a great one on, um, uh, A D H D medication on like Adderall and Vyvance and, and nons stimulant, uh, treatments and, and how they work and why they work and who they don’t work for. [00:12:27] Brett: Uh, it was really enlightening. Um, but that’s Huberman lab. Um, [00:12:33] Bryan: I’m always really impressed by solo podcasters. Cause like that’s just gotta be like to just mainline your own self talking for like an hour. [00:12:47] Brett: by, what I’m impressed by is successful solo podcasters. People, people, people who are actually as interesting as they think they are when they sit down to record a solo podcast,[00:13:00] [00:13:00] Bryan: Yeah. I mean, [00:13:01] Brett: that’s a fine line right there. [00:13:03] Bryan: It really, really is a fine line. You know that if Elon Musk was a podcaster, he would be [00:13:08] Brett: my God. [00:13:09] Bryan: podcaster. [00:13:09] Brett: Oh, [00:13:10] Christina: Oh, of course he would. Of course he would because, no, it is always interesting and there are some solo podcasters who can do Okay. Just like radio hosts. But yeah, Ilan would totally be a solo podcaster cuz he doesn’t wanna hear anybody else’s thoughts. [00:13:23] Brett: Well, can you imagine Joe Rogan, just by himself just talking his shit for an hour at a time? [00:13:29] Christina: No, no, but, and [00:13:32] Bryan: the world would’ve been better off if he did that, cuz it would’ve ended [00:13:35] Christina: I was gonna say, I was gonna say, the unfortunate thing is, is that Joe Rogan is not a dumb person, which is kind of going back to uh, uh, like a thing we were talking about pre-show about certain people. He’s not a dumb person and he’s actually a very good entertainer and a very good like, live performer and understands that for the medium that he’s doing with podcasting, he needs other people. [00:13:56] Christina: Uh, and, uh, uh, Dave Portnoy, who I also [00:14:00] can’t stand, but also have to kind of respect his skills. He’s the guy from, uh, bar, um, uh, uh, Barstool Schwartz is another thing, like his podcasts are. I, I know why. I completely understand why they’re successful. And he’s also a guy who does solo tos that are compelling. [00:14:18] Christina: I hate that cuz I, I can’t stand the guy. But he’s, but he’s compelling, but he knows he’s compelling in like 92nd doses. You know, [00:14:26] Bryan: Yeah. [00:14:27] Brett: Yeah. Should we take a quick sponsor break? [00:14:30] It’s Not Really a Sponsor [00:14:30] Christina: we should, that’s a great segue. [00:14:32] Bryan: Yeah. [00:14:32] Brett: This episode is brought to you by none other than Mark Zuckerberg, the confident, evil billionaire. If you’re looking for a winner in the cage match, and a billionaire who would rather waste his money on failed virtual reality ventures than Fallek Spa space exploration vehicles, Zuck is your guy. [00:14:50] Brett: Head to Zuckerberg for president.com to save 100% on your subscription to Facebook where your data goes farther than any other service. That’s [00:15:00] zuckerberg mma.com for 100% off of your identity. Thanks, mark. [00:15:06] Bryan: Thanks, mark. We really appreciate it, especially on, you know, this the day three of your new social media project threats. [00:15:17] The Social Media Landscape [00:15:17] Brett: the perfect, perfect lead in to, to one of our topics. Should we talk about, should we talk about the threads specifically, but also the, the, the landscape of social media at, in the, in the, in the death rowes of Twitter. [00:15:35] Christina: yes. Yes, we have to. [00:15:38] Brett: So, Christina, tell us what threads is. [00:15:40] Christina: Okay. So Threads is, is Twitter, um, missing a number of features, but it’s, it’s Twitter except you use Instagram as your login. And it turns out that that’s really all you have to do if you wanna get, uh, I th they, they had 70 million users in two days. Um, and, and to be clear, this is not people who, [00:16:00] like, th this is people who had to manually download the app and then opt to log in. [00:16:04] Christina: So, so this is 70 million signups, like actual things in under two days. They’re gonna hit a hundred million probably within the first week, um, easily. And so it’s one of the most successful, uh, social app launches of all time. But it is essentially Twitter mixing a bunch of features. And again, it’s kind of telling that you can literally do the bare minimum, like all these Twitter clones, Macedon, blue Sky, uh, what’s, what’s the queer one, um, that, that, uh, has been in, in, um, invite only status? [00:16:34] Bryan: Is that spill? [00:16:36] Christina: Yes. Spill, uh, a bunch of other ones, like all, all these things that have tried, uh, post, um, there’s, uh, t2, all these things, like they had to like, go out of their way to really be like, oh, look at all these features and look at this and that. And then like, if you have the network effect, you can literally do the minimum viable product that is real minimal and you can get 70 million plus users [00:17:00] in two days. [00:17:02] Bryan: Yeah, it’s, it’s fascinating. I listened to two podcasts where Adam er was on, um, I think Hard Fork and then [00:17:16] Christina: It’s the bcast. [00:17:17] Bryan: the Vergecast. Yeah. And it, it’s fascinating. Um, I It’s very interesting that, [00:17:24] Christina: Oh, oh. And just for clarification, Atmos runs Instagram, um, at Facebook. Sorry, go on. [00:17:29] Bryan: Yeah. And Adam Aria is a very interesting man because like Adam Aria is the one who’s like, we’re gonna change everything about Instagram. [00:17:35] Bryan: And everybody hated him. And then he is like, no, we’re not. Um, um, so he’s used to, he’s used to like getting out there and saying things that people may not like. But this was one, I think what’s really interesting to me is that they’re trying to create Twitter, but not about news. [00:17:53] Christina: Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s what they say. I, I, I, I wonder how much of that has to do [00:18:00] with a, the EU lawsuit, which is ongoing. So this is interesting. 70 million users, and if you live in Europe, you can’t even sign up unless you use an Apple ID or Google Play account that is not based in the eu. Um, which, look, even if you agree with the EU on this, my personal opinion, this is just the American and me, I think that banning apps from app stores based on their country and whatnot, I think that’s bullshit. [00:18:22] Christina: I think it’s bullshit when China does it. Uh, if the US tries to ban TikTok, I think it’s bullshit. I think it’s bullshit When the EU does it, like honestly, that’s some draconian, like, like level, just like that’s, that’s fucked. But putting that aside, I wonder if this whole statement about saying, oh, we don’t wanna be about news. [00:18:40] Christina: It’s not worth a small amount of money for us, is because of the lawsuits they’re in, where they might have to pay publishers and people per post or whatever. [00:18:48] Bryan: thing too. [00:18:49] Christina: Yeah, the Canada thing. Exactly. So I wonder if it’s not so much that they care or they wanna discourage it, but if they’re just like, we have to very publicly make it clear, cuz like [00:19:00] Twitter famously changed the way that the app was put in the app store, I think in 2016 to be in news category rather than in the social category. [00:19:08] Christina: So like Twitter actively went into that direction. Right. So there, there was like a, a meme a while back where people were like, oh, look at how far blue sky is trended in Twitter’s not even the top five. And I was like, that’s not where Twitter is categorized. Um, but like, um, yeah. So I wonder how much of that is like, legitimate and how much of that is based on like the lawsuits and this is just them saying the right things to try to avoid. [00:19:33] Christina: Uh, the, the, the government’s trying to force them to, to pay for stuff. I don’t know. [00:19:36] Bryan: Yeah. But it’s also weird because like I, yeah, it is interesting because there also are like applying Instagram’s level of like moderation and filtering to it, which like to me again, since. One of, I mean, one of my primary uses for Twitter is porn. Um, like, I’m just not sure how, I [00:20:00] mean, except that there seem to be all these people signing up, but we’ll see how long they stay around. [00:20:04] Bryan: Like is there interest? Like can you have a text-based social network that is sustainable? And, uh, I mean, it doesn’t have to be that big in the scheme of Facebook for it to matter or Instagram for it to matter, but that like people will use and doesn’t get boring if you’re not getting into fights about news or looking at porn. [00:20:25] Christina: Yeah, no, I think that’s a good point, Brett, your thoughts because I I, I, I have many thoughts on this, but I, I don’t wanna dominate this [00:20:33] Brett: No, no. Please, please continue. [00:20:35] Christina: okay. So I totally agree with you, and I think this is this interesting thing. And so I’ve been working on this thesis in my mind basically since this launched. [00:20:42] Christina: And. Even the fact that at like, I’m embarrassed by this, I was like, user like 444,000, which to me is way, way high. Like on any social network, like I feel like I should be way lower on the list. MG Segler who wrote a great post for his, um, blog, um, [00:21:00] 500 words ish, though I think it was more than 500 words. [00:21:02] Christina: He had a really great analysis that has usually with MG stuff is like everything I’ve been saying in group chats, but didn’t actually take the time to write because that’s why he is great. He actually gets the words out. But he was, you know, he’d been in Europe and so he was like overnight, so he’s like user 1 million or something. [00:21:19] Christina: And he was mad about that and, and I [00:21:21] Bryan: 710,000. [00:21:23] Christina: right, and see we’re early adopters and this is the thing, I kind of had this, the epiphany over the last few days. I don’t think threads is for posters. I think it’s for Normies. And that’s interesting. [00:21:35] Bryan: for normies? Yeah. [00:21:36] Christina: I think it is. And, and the thing is, is I, I look as a poster. [00:21:41] Christina: I don’t like that. And I feel alienated and, and I feel wronged and I feel like this isn’t a place for me. But then I have to look at where the social landscape is today, and I have to ask myself and be very honest to say the moment that allowed. Twitter 1.0 to [00:22:00] exist, has that passed? And, and would you even be able to, if you didn’t have, you know, the monopolies of, of scale and whatnot, and you didn’t have the Elon Musk bullshit and whatnot, could you even create like what, what Twitter 1.0 is now? [00:22:12] Christina: Like would the, the landscape that exists now except it, and I don’t think it would. And so there’s a part of me that, even though I’m always going to be skeptical about what the long-term interest in these sorts of things is, because I think Twitter’s a great example of this where, you know, like the number of people who logged up, signed up for Twitter accounts in 2011 and then posted a few times, never came back, is massive. [00:22:36] Christina: Um, I wonder if there is a larger sustainable base of normies and non posters, and if that’s what this is and if this could almost succeed by. Just virtue of, of getting people that would never post to Twitter to begin with. I don’t know. You know what I mean? Like, it’s an interesting thing to think about. [00:22:57] Christina: It’s not for us though. This is not for posters. [00:22:59] Bryan: and what’s [00:23:00] interesting is I was an early Twitter signup person, but I did not really start using Twitter until 2019 in like, there was a period in which I caught like back to back to back bands on Facebook for talking about white people. Um, surprise. Um, and so like I Twitter being much more lax about that stuff. [00:23:31] Bryan: Like I got into Twitter cuz I couldn’t use Facebook, I couldn’t talk to people on Facebook. [00:23:34] Christina: And that, that, that’s a lot of people’s story. Right. I mean, I think that’s the thing is that Twitter has always had that much more for, and this is the irony, both on the right and the left. It’s for all the people who’ve complained about. Twitter’s censorship policies one way or another. It has honestly, for better or worse, been the least resistant of any of the services. [00:23:52] Christina: Like their, their terms of service and their content guidelines early on were basically non-existent. They [00:24:00] were like, you can’t have porn in your header or in your profile photo. And that was basically it, like originally. And you know, Facebook is not like that and, um, but most platforms are not like that. [00:24:11] Christina: But, but, but, but, but there’s, there’s a, a question that I have in my mind, which is, I think that Twitter had an inordinate, and this has always been the case. It had an inordinate amount of influence compared to its relative size and certainly, um, compared to the amount of money that, that it, it made and, and you know, that advertisers were willing to spend on it. [00:24:28] Christina: And I think that was largely because the posters TM that were on it were, you know, news people, media people. And, and there were some celebrities who would get into high profile feuds, but even most of the celebrities left over the years. Right. And then once it became a Donald Trump and an Elon Musk thing, then that became like a thing that kept it in the news. [00:24:46] Christina: But like, I. I don’t know. I, I don’t, I feel like Twitter itself has lost a lot of that relevancy and in that aspect, and I don’t think that’s really the case anymore. Um, for, for a variety of reasons. And [00:25:00] so, a, I don’t think you can ever, I don’t know if you can ever recreate like what Twitter was in that sense, that this is like the, the place where highly influential people are talking. [00:25:09] Christina: I don’t know if you can recreate that and, and have this relatively small service have this outsized amount of attention and influence. But b, I wonder if you were going to do a social posting app. If the normy way as again, like it’s not for us potentially, like if that could actually be successful just because the, the boringness, the sanguineous, the, you know, the brands, the, you know, like Normy, you know, photos, the, the lack of nudes, the lack of, you know, threatening to, to, you know, um, set people on fire, you know, um, would, would be able to, to work because I mean, it works for Instagram, it works for TikTok. [00:25:50] Christina: You know, YouTube is a little more lax, but you know, those, these are all the platforms that thrive and they’re much more Normy based, so I don’t know. [00:25:58] Brett: How does Threads [00:26:00] launch without hashtag support? That’s some Twitter [00:26:03] Bryan: Well, but who? But who? That’s because the normies don’t care about hashtags. [00:26:07] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they say it’s on the roadmap. Here’s my read. They’ve been working on this for a while. I think that they took advantage of the fact that when, when Twitter last week, for the various reasons, you know, turned off its scraping stuff, which also now based on the, the lawsuit that that Musk is threatening, might be tied to what they thought threads was gonna do. [00:26:27] Christina: I think that they pushed up the launch. [00:26:29] Brett: well in the rate limits on Twitter, what, who’s whose brilliant idea was that, I gotta assume, must decided we’re gonna limit how many tweets people can read. That’s just fucking dumb. [00:26:42] Bryan: I, I read that what I read from somebody, and I’ll see if I can find the link, but they were talking to somebody who used to be a Twitter sre and they were talking about how. If, first of all, it’s unlikely that the cover story, [00:27:00] like the, the, oh, we are getting all our data scrapes, so we’re going to block that is the real reason. [00:27:06] Bryan: And, and it’s much more that like things were starting to not work well in a way, and that they needed to throttle the system usage and they, and somebody was saying like, that means that like a lot of things are going wrong. [00:27:21] Christina: Right, right. I, I, I think, I think that’s probably correct. I think part of it was about cover story. I do wonder, especially with how quickly they had the lawsuit, um, threat planned and, and the language that was used there. If they got word that maybe threads was expanding their beta. They started thinking, okay, we know we have a number of former employees working there and we are concerned that threads might be scraping us or some other things. [00:27:48] Christina: Cuz there were a lot of Twitter scraping sites. Um, but I don’t, I don’t think they impacted, I, I don’t know if they impacted performance or anything else. And if that was, you know, kind of his like impulsive, well we must shut down [00:28:00] this, this potential competitor. And instead all he really did was potentially accelerate. [00:28:04] Christina: This is again, all my, uh, unfounded speculation. So do not take any of this as, as anything that is for anything more than that. Is, this is completely unfounded. Basically was like, okay, this is backing and, and threads launch. Cause I have a feeling that Threads wasn’t planned to launch the, the week that it launched. [00:28:24] Christina: I have [00:28:24] Bryan: No, I think they even literally said that that was the case. [00:28:27] Christina: Yeah, I mean, I think they took advantage of, of the moment that, that all this is happening. And, um, that’s, if, if you are the, a sensible, you know, on paper CEO of Twitter who is trying to reassure advertisers and sign them back up and then your real boss, um, cuts off the API or throttles how many posts people can see, doesn’t let people view things logged in, all things that advertisers are going to hate. [00:28:53] Christina: And then the company that literally has the best relationship with advertisers. Advertisers love, [00:29:00] love, love because A, they’ll give you all kinds of data and b, they have just a massive audience and they launched their text thing and they don’t have ads yet, but they’re already talking to brands. Man, wow. [00:29:11] Christina: That, that would make your job as the on-paper CEO really hard, wouldn’t it? Because [00:29:15] Brett: Yeah. [00:29:17] Christina: if you have so much spend to do on, on a text platform, I don’t think you’re gonna spend it on both, you know, [00:29:23] Bryan: Yeah. And this is what, this is what Facebook or Meta is good at, is like the operational excellence of being able to be like, all right, we’re gonna launch this thing early. We’re gonna make it happen. You know? [00:29:38] Christina: And it broke a little bit, but it stayed up. Like there were errors, but it was so impressive to see that number of users coming. And yes, there were errors and it was janky, and I was like, I can’t even drag this because this is literally the best I’ve ever seen. Can you even imagine onboarding 70 million users in two days?[00:30:00] [00:30:00] Christina: Like that’s unreal. [00:30:02] Bryan: about what happened to Blue Sky right after the rate limits happened. So like, I mean, as we, we can expand our conversation into some of these other social networks. There’s the, the, the, the most buzzies before. Threads was Blue Sky, which is ex Twitter, you know, which is, um, was originally spun out of Twitter. [00:30:20] Christina: right. [00:30:20] Bryan: Um, started with money from Jack Dorsey and Twitter I think actually just took a new, uh, 8 million seed round. [00:30:28] Christina: Yep. [00:30:29] Bryan: Um, [00:30:30] Christina: announced the day threads launched. Awful timing. I felt, I felt so bad for them. I felt so bad for them. [00:30:35] Bryan: um, and the reason probably they announced it that day was the two days before that they were getting hammered left and right because everybody was jumping to Blue Sky because of the, because of the rate limits on Twitter. Um, I think, I mean Blue Sky, I think Blue Sky is very weird. [00:30:55] Brett: I agree. [00:30:56] Bryan: It’s like, again, it still feels like Twitter for Normies to some [00:30:59] Brett: I, [00:31:00] I don’t cotton, I, I don’t cotton to it. [00:31:02] Bryan: Twitter for shit posters. [00:31:04] Christina: Yeah. I [00:31:04] Brett: Jake, Jake Tapin. That’s about the only good thing about Blue. [00:31:07] Christina: I, I, I was gonna say Blue Sky is for posters, literally Blue Sky. It’s, it’s like, I feel like Blue Sky and Threads are like the, are opposite size of the same coin. Like one is explicitly for posters, one is explicitly for Normies, and I think that this is what’s sort of frustrating is that Twitter was that happy medium and I don’t know if we can ever have that again. [00:31:27] Bryan: Because like, I like and because Blue Sky really feels like it’s just, there’s a large contingent of people there who are not just posters, but shit posters. Like the, the posters. The joke is the meme. Like, and what I dis for me, I am a, I am an earnest poster, um, al almost to a fault. Um, and [00:31:48] Christina: does not work there. Which, which, which doesn’t work there. [00:31:50] Bryan: not at all worked there, but there were like, there was enough of a dilution on Twitter. [00:31:54] Bryan: On Twitter, you could find everybody. [00:31:57] Christina: Well that, that, that’s the thing. This is what, this is what I [00:32:00] think like makes me saddest about Twitter as inevitable to demise and decline and whatnot. Even if it continues as an ongoing concern, is that for me, for so many years it was my primary social platform because it was the only place where I could be all parts of myself. [00:32:15] Christina: I could be the shit poster, I could be like the, the, the earnest person. I could be the tech person, I could be the pop culture stand. I could be like all those things. And I would have different followers for different reasons and I would be discovered by different people in different groups. And I never felt like I had to stick in one box on Blue Sky. [00:32:33] Christina: I do feel like I have to basically be in shit post mode on Mastodon. I feel like I have to be in more tech earnest mode. I’m still figuring out what I can be on threads. And it’s, it’s weird cuz Instagram has always been more curated, but I’ve never. Invested a ton of time on Instagram. Um, and I mean, I had, I have like 6,000 followers there, which for my standards is like, I know this sounds awful, but, but compared to my other, but compared to my other [00:33:00] accounts, it’s not, but compared to my other accounts, it’s like microscopic. [00:33:04] Christina: And so, but, but here’s what’s interesting. Two, three days on threads. I already have a thousand followers more than I have on Blue Sky, where I was active and actively posting up until [00:33:14] Brett: Well, because everyone, everyone who followed you on, on Instagram automatically becomes a follower. [00:33:21] Christina: Well, not automatically. Like you have to opt in. I I chose [00:33:24] Bryan: and because there is no follow and because there is no following right now. Cause it’s all algorithm. The graph is all algorithmic, like that timeline, there is no following right now. So, and they say that’s on the roadmap, which is fascinating because they’ve been leaning so hard into the algorithmic thing that I would, and actually I think that that’s one of Twitter’s strengths, [00:33:45] Christina: I agree. [00:33:46] Brett: Can I tell my joke? Can I tell my joke? That went really poorly on threads. [00:33:49] Christina: Yes. I [00:33:50] Bryan: so ex Yeah, I saw it. It was so good. [00:33:52] Brett: I, I kicked off my account with a meme that said my friend got mad at me for sniffing his sister’s panties. [00:34:00] I’m not sure if it was because she was still wearing them or because his whole family was present. Either way, it made the rest of the funeral really awkward. [00:34:09] Bryan: Uh, so good. It’s so good. [00:34:12] Brett: It got [00:34:12] Bryan: It’s so good because there, [00:34:14] Brett: two likes. [00:34:15] Bryan: it’s, this is the thing though. That’s because, that’s because Twitter is like, or like, because Instagram, like that’s not the Instagram content. [00:34:23] Christina: no, it’s not. Not even remotely. [00:34:26] Bryan: Yeah, but that’s so good because [00:34:28] Brett: I should note that at the bottom of this meme, there’s a picture of Yahweh, God, and he says, Noah, and the next frame, his eyes are lit up and it says, get the boat. [00:34:39] Bryan: I love that joke because there are three different points where you’re like, holy shit. Holy shit. Holy shit. [00:34:51] Brett: I said, I said the whole thing, straight face to someone, as if I were giving them an update on something that really happened to me last night. And it took, it [00:35:00] took a minute, uh, for them to process that this was a joke. And [00:35:05] Bryan: that’s a tick. That’s a TikTok joke, Brett. [00:35:08] Brett: I’m not onac. [00:35:09] Bryan: that’s, that’s a But you could, that’s a cut. That’s a cut. That’s a cut scene. TikTok joke. would work really well. Um, I saw somebody who did a TikTok where like, and, and maybe I saw again because this is how the world works now, and this is the other, this is my other thesis, which is that Twitter is particularly great for a d h ADHD posters, [00:35:29] Christina: Oh, 100%. [00:35:31] Bryan: uh, because of that thing where we can dip into all of our different interests so easily. [00:35:36] Bryan: Um, and this idea that I have to post to five different social networks, no thank you. Like, absolutely not. do not have the focus to post across multiple, multiple social networks. [00:35:48] Brett: Do you, do you remember? So I have gotten multiple requests, um, on various, uh, networks, mostly on Macedon for, uh, a revival of an [00:36:00] my first app mood blast. Um, I had written, I had written an app, mostly an Apple script actually. I was just getting into Max at the time and I had written an app that would post to. [00:36:13] Brett: Jaiku and Addium and Skype and Twitter and Facebook all at once. And you could use like different codes and stuff. Uh, it had like a command line syntax when you were posting to like determine what went where and, uh, and you could set your, like your chat status at the same time as you like sent out a, a status update. [00:36:36] Brett: And it was in its day. It it was, it was good. It was very popular. Um, it’s how I met like Merlin Mann. It’s how I, it’s how I met. It’s how I got my gig at the unofficial Apple [00:36:49] Christina: I was gonna say, I was gonna say, I’m almost positive that I used mood blaster. [00:36:53] Brett: David Charty, I wrote about like every single update I ever put out to it, like [00:36:57] Bryan: Amazing. [00:36:58] Brett: wrote about it on the blog [00:37:00] and, and people are like, you know, the time the, we’re back to those wild West days [00:37:05] Christina: are, [00:37:07] Brett: where you don’t know what’s gonna win, the, what’s gonna win the battle yet, and everything seems new and fresh. [00:37:13] Christina: yep. Yeah, which is [00:37:14] Bryan: would be great. [00:37:15] Christina: Would, I mean, I wish we could do that. I mean, I think it’s, it’s interesting, um, uh, Matthew, um, uh, Casini, the, the shortcuts guy, uh, was, was writing about, you know, that I think about potentially creating shortcuts so you could crosspost things, which actually is a pretty good, um, rudimentary way to get around some of the a p i challenges, you know, for Twitter and whatnot. [00:37:35] Christina: I will say this is the one aspect of threads that has me sort of excited, and that is that they have said publicly, like their commitment to activity pub, because putting aside the, the drama of all the various instances that won’t federate with it because they’re fucking babies and don’t think about their users and are little bitches, like, I’m sorry, but that’s my opinion. [00:37:54] Christina: Like, if, if, if, I think that should be a user decision, not a, um, admin decision. But I [00:38:00] also find most, most, not all, but most ma on admins to be on power trips because they are like Reddit admins and Wikipedia editors times 10. But, but like if you think about that, if they adopt Activity pub, that then opens up. [00:38:14] Christina: Really interesting possibilities for being able to cross post and maybe customize, like you were saying with um, uh, you know, like your mood, like, um, ice Cubes, which is Amadon app, uh, this weekend introduced like the, the first kind of iteration of their using a Blue sky bridge so you can post to Blue Sky from, from Ice cubes, which is awesome. [00:38:35] Christina: And it doesn’t do everything, but it does a lot of stuff and like, that’s really cool. You know, Manton, who’s been doing micro.blog for like, almost, you know, 10 years now, um, uh, like is, I’m sure that as soon as Instagram or uh, threads, whatever has integration will build that into, you know, micro blog. And I feel like he’s really been on the forefront of the, the, the best options [00:39:00] for all of us of us. [00:39:00] Christina: We try to determine where to go, but yeah, I think if, if you could bring back mood poster, that would be amazing. [00:39:06] Brett: I do appreciate that these new services are, um, putting APIs, uh, forefront in their, in their plans. Like Threads is planning to, uh, be at Activity Pub compatible. Blue Sky has its own, um, a p i its own what framework, I guess, um, that that is easy to work with. Like the, the number of, of integrations is already, there are already numerous ways to post to Blue Sky. [00:39:38] Brett: Um, and that, I mean, that’s what made Twitter in the early [00:39:42] Christina: No, it’s 100% What made [00:39:44] Brett: and I hope that they continue. I hope they don’t pull a Twitter and let third party developers make their app big and then. Fuck them over. Um, although I have no reason to believe that won’t be the case. Uh, once, [00:40:00] once you start making money, once you have the, once you have the footing, why wouldn’t you cut those people out? [00:40:05] Christina: I mean, I think it depends, right? Cuz it’s sort of like, I mean like it took Reddit, you know, 15 years to, to do that. And so you’re right, it might be inevitable, but at the same time, like if you’re using a protocol, unless you wanna rewrite everything you’ve done, which look you could, but that’s a lot of work. [00:40:20] Christina: Um, so. I, I don’t know. I feel like at Proto, which is what, uh, blue Sky uses and, and if, you know, they really do, if, if, if Threads really does come to Activity Pub, which people were already finding activity pub stuff within it before it even launched. So I think that it’s already kind of there. They just haven’t turned on the, the Federation stuff. [00:40:39] Christina: I will say this, this was something that was interesting that, uh, our audience is probably gonna be some of the only people who are interested in this, that I discovered in like the first hour of playing with Threads. It has an export function. I’m sure this is for GDPR reasons. However, it is better than like the Instagram, you know, like request all of your data thing. [00:40:59] Christina: There is a [00:41:00] way for you to export all of your threads from the app. Now it’s weird how it does it, it doesn’t give you a J S O N file. It doesn’t give you whatnot. You have a few different places you can export to, and this is what the weird part is. One is blogger. Okay? Yeah. One is some journal service that I’ve never heard of. [00:41:22] Christina: One is, um, wordpress.com by a Jetpack, and that’s sort of interesting. And then the third one, the fourth one, and this was the one that I tried because I, I thought that it was gonna do it in a way that was different than it did was Google Docs. [00:41:35] Brett: Really so. [00:41:36] Christina: The way that it does it, and I only had like 10 threads at the time, so don’t do this if you have a lot of threads, was that it literally creates a doc for every single post that you’ve made. [00:41:46] Brett: That’s useless. That’s that’s useless. [00:41:49] Christina: useless. But, but here, what was interesting, the media that was embedded in those things is also embedded in the Google Doc. And, and I have to say, like, again, janky as all get out [00:42:00] Blogger is weird. It seemed like [00:42:01] Brett: For sure. [00:42:02] Christina: like, like, like I, I, I don’t know if they found some sort of other open source thing that they just like reused. [00:42:07] Christina: Again, this journaling service that I’ve never heard of. It was a weird ass thing, but I was like, okay, this is here day one. So clearly some of the engineers have been playing with this idea of archiving from the get go, and that that’s even better than Mastodon right now, because Mastodon, to get your data out is kind of a pain in the ass. [00:42:27] Christina: And, and, uh, and, and not a great process at all. And this is like the best of all of them, even though the places you could port it to are weird. [00:42:37] Bryan: Is Blogger just a call out to [00:42:39] Christina: I have no idea. I have no idea. Like, I, I, I, I, I, I assume it’s because they still have an API that they could like point things to because Blogger has been in perpetual maintenance mode. I think that’s probably what it was. I think this is probably something that just the, you know, the engineers are playing with, oh, speaking of engineers, they, they hired Jane Wong. [00:42:57] Christina: Um, that’s [00:43:00] awesome. That’s awesome. [00:43:02] Brett: Who’s that? [00:43:02] Christina: So she is the person who reverse engineered both the Twitter and the Facebook apps for like years and would find all the hidden stuff. But she lived in Hong Kong and had been trying to get out for a while because she’d been public about her dislike for like China, you know, and all the bullshit they’re doing and the protests and stuff. [00:43:18] Christina: And she announced she was moving into the Bay Area a few months ago and we didn’t know why. And then she announced that she was hired to work on um, threads. And I know, I know for a fact Twitter tried to hire her for a long time and I think that it was difficult. I think the Visa issues probably made it really hard. [00:43:33] Christina: So the fact that that meta did the thing and got her out there, that’s honestly, that was one of the, the few encouraging signs I had. I was like, okay, some of the talent you’ve hired to work on this is at least really understanding of the space and really, really good. Even though I’ll obviously miss her, you know, reverse engineering and dissecting all of their app bundles. [00:43:54] Brett: So. [00:43:54] Bryan: Yeah. It’s like I, it’s like I still miss, um, Anand. [00:43:59] Christina: [00:44:00] Yes. Still. [00:44:00] Bryan: So much. [00:44:02] Christina: He was the best. He was the best. And then Brian, too, who like kind of took over him. He, he left like two years later and also was at Apple. But I kind of love that the people, the guy who used to explain, you know, how silicon stuff works to me is l is, you know, assuredly working on apple silicon. [00:44:19] Christina: That’s kind of an amazing glow up. [00:44:21] Bryan: Maybe we can get the real Mac Pro one of these days. [00:44:25] Christina: Oh my God. [00:44:26] The Bear (or Silver Fox) [00:44:26] Brett: So can we talk real quick about the bear before we do a gude? [00:44:31] Bryan: didn’t know you were gonna talk about me, but, okay. [00:44:34] Christina: Ba bump. [00:44:35] Brett: but, um, um, what am I, where do I fit into the gay community? not a dolphin. I’m not a twink. I’m not a, I’m kind of a bear, I guess. I guess I’m a, [00:44:46] Bryan: otter. You’re an [00:44:47] Christina: for bear. [00:44:48] Brett: I’m an otter? I’m, [00:44:50] Bryan: Yeah. I think [00:44:50] Brett: aren’t I too old to be an otter? [00:44:52] Bryan: Uh, no otter’s, not necessarily age. Um, you could also be, I mean, [00:45:00] uh, you could maybe be like a wolf. [00:45:03] Brett: Oh, like a, like a f like a silver fox. [00:45:07] Bryan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:45:09] Christina: Oh. Or he could be like, he’d be like a silver daddy is, or what? What’s the [00:45:12] Bryan: yeah, yeah, yeah. Silver fox. So like, Anderson Cooper is a silver fox, but Anderson Cooper is like a vi, like Anderson Cooper is like, you would be like a silver wolf, I would say, because like Anderson Cooper is too pretty. [00:45:26] Brett: What do you call a fat fox? [00:45:31] Bryan: I don’t know. [00:45:32] Brett: Um, so anyway, uh, the, the latest season of the bear came out on Hulu and I had been anxiously awaiting it cuz it’s honestly some of the best writing. On TV right now, and there is an episode in the middle of the season, uh, that’s a flashback to kind of like, uh, Carmen’s origin story, his family. And like you see like where Mikey, his brother who died, fits into the [00:46:00] family and you meet his mom played by Jamie Lee Curtis, who does a fucking award-winning job of playing a goddamn psycho. [00:46:10] Brett: Um, it was intense. I almost didn’t wanna watch the next episode because it was so stressful getting through that family episode. Have you guys seen, do you know what I’m talking [00:46:22] Christina: Um, I haven’t wa I haven’t watched all of season two. I’m, So, [00:46:25] Christina: I, so I’m not there [00:46:26] Brett: seen the family episode [00:46:27] Christina: Not yet. I think, I think I’m like the one before that. [00:46:29] Brett: be warned. It is stressful. It is. Uh, John Mullaney is in it, uh, which is just outstanding. He plays, he plays this like, There’s a scene where he’s talking to, uh, the FAC brothers and they’re like, if you give us $500, we’re gonna like invest it in, in like trading cards, I think. [00:46:51] Brett: And, and he’s like, yeah, I’m a, I’m an adult male. I can come up with $500 and you know what? I’m gonna give it to you because I’m entertained to see what you, [00:47:00] what you’re going to do with it. And it’s just like a perfect malaney character. I love it. Um, as we’re talking balloons keep flying up around my head and I don’t know what it is I’m saying that makes that happen. [00:47:12] Brett: Um, I wish I could, I wish I could figure out how to do this on cue. [00:47:16] Christina: Yeah. I was gonna say, what, what’s, what’s the deal with that? But I was also kind of like, I, I love it. I [00:47:22] Brett: It’s happened. It ha it happened to me last episode too. Just like balloons and I don’t fucking great. I think I’d say fucking great. And then balloons [00:47:31] Christina: I was gonna say, you, you did something in one of your automations like this is, this is, you know, it’s probably attached to your, your, um, stream deck in some way. Like, you, you’ve done something in your automations. I know it. [00:47:42] Bryan: I love it. I love it so much. Who, yeah, I haven’t watched any of the Bear. [00:47:48] Brett: What you have to, [00:47:50] Bryan: I, I, I, I will add it to my list. I was just rewatching all of the Mission Impossible movies. Um, [00:47:58] Brett: that’s a good time. It’s [00:47:59] Bryan: I, [00:48:00] yeah. There again, considerably better than they have any right to be. [00:48:04] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:48:05] Brett: Sure. [00:48:06] Christina: They’re like the fast and the Furious movies, but like, good, you know what I mean? Like, like, like actually like good acting and yeah. [00:48:13] Bryan: I mean, give, listen. The person that I actually think is one of the best actors in the face and furious movies is Tyrese. [00:48:19] Christina: Oh, you’re not wrong. You’re not wrong. Look, and, and here, here’s the thing. I, I will become a Tyrese, stand for a second. Um, John Singleton. John Singleton, r i p, one of the, our greatest filmmakers. Um, his, uh, 2001 film Baby Boy, which was originally supposed to start Tupac, but, uh, he cast Tyrese instead because Tupac, you know, murdered, um, is, is an amazing film. [00:48:40] Christina: Uh, Taraji, uh, uh, uh, what’s her face? Um, cookie, obviously. Um, I, I, I’m Henson, uh, it is in it. Ving Rames. I can’t think of who plays, um, his mom. It is a fantastic, fantastic portrait of, uh, kind of like, um, um, you know, uh, black, like youth like coming [00:49:00] of age sort of thing. And Tyrese is exceptional in it. [00:49:05] Bryan: Also Ving Rames, my God, who’s in all the Mission Impossible movies I, [00:49:11] Christina: good. He’s so funny. [00:49:13] Bryan: and also that man is beautiful. [00:49:16] Christina: is so beautiful. He is so beautiful. [00:49:19] Bryan: I’m also, I also just started watching Hijack on Apple TV plus, and that’s Idris Alba. [00:49:27] Brett: Nice. [00:49:28] Bryan: Another beautiful man. Um, yeah, I love the, I do love that the Fast and Furious movies got ludicrous and Tyse. [00:49:38] Christina: Same And Ludacris. Also, Ludacris also a good actor. Like, like, like, like, like, you know, like I, I know that like, it’s, it’s a meme cuz it’s a, it’s not a great movie, but it is what it is. But, um, uh, A crash was an Oscar winning film and like Ludacris was fucking in crash. And he was good in it. Yes. And he was good in it. [00:49:57] Christina: And he was good in it. And, [00:50:00] and, uh, he’s, he’s a, Chris is a good actor, like Georgia State represent [00:50:06] Brett: So, [00:50:06] Christina: what. [00:50:07] Brett: speaking of Tupac, did you guys see Dear Mama, [00:50:11] Christina: No. [00:50:11] Bryan: no. [00:50:12] Brett: a documentary, it’s a Tupac documentary. I think it’s on Hulu. And, uh, it was actually, I think, I think it was like a multi-part mini series. And it goes through like his, his like high school years, his upbringing with like the Black Panthers and like kind of his, uh, ification and like his beliefs and his like multiple, like the multiple times he’d almost been killed before he was killed. [00:50:43] Brett: And it was, it was enlightening. I, uh, I was a Tupac fan. I, I, I could probably recite. Quite a few Tupac lyrics from memory. Um, but I was just, you know, another one of those white kids who, who dug gangster [00:51:00] rap, [00:51:00] Christina: I remember, I remember when he was sh I remember when he was shot. Like that was like the biggest news in seventh grade. Like that was like, it was like, it was, [00:51:09] Brett: Kurt Loder had a lot to say about that. [00:51:11] Christina: well it was just nuts because we were all watching that fight. And then Tupac, who like, like it seemed like he was gonna be okay, you know, cuz he was in the hospital for a few days. [00:51:19] Christina: Like we thought he was gonna be okay and then he died. And like, I mean I obviously remember Kurt Cobain and that being like a massive cultural moment, but I think Tupac was like the first one that really hit me because I was finally at an age where I could be like, oh shit, you know, [00:51:35] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. I, I recommend anyone who, anyone who’s curious. Uh, dear Mama. Yeah. All right, let’s, uh, let’s do some gratitude. Um, [00:51:47] GrAPPtitude [00:51:47] Bryan: gratitude. [00:51:48] Brett: Let’s see who wants to kick it off. [00:51:51] Christina: Uh, I’ll start. So the one that I picked is an app that came out, um, I think like at the end of June. So I like missed like its first week [00:52:00] out there, so I apologize Anders, but it’s from Anders Borum who created a working copy and, um, the, uh, his, uh, what’s his Shell app? Um, a shellfish or whatever, a shellfish app. [00:52:11] Christina: So which are, which are two, um, iOS apps that are, are really great. Like Shellfish app is, is a SSH client, but also works with, um, the Files app on, on iOS and working copy is, in my opinion, the best get client, um, available for iOS. Well, he released S3 files, which is, uh, a universal app. It’s $3 a month or it’s $15 as a one-time purchase. [00:52:36] Christina: And it’s an S3 client, um, that will let you access S3 compatible storage. So things like Amazon s3, um, backblaze, b2, CloudFlare, R two, Oracles, whatever, like anything that that uses the S3 spec, which is most services like DigitalOcean, um, has them. Um, and um, it’ll basically let you integrate that inside the files app, uh, [00:53:00] share sheet. [00:53:00] Christina: You can use it with shortcuts and it even works with Finder on Mac. And the way that, that, uh, he’s doing this is that he’s making it like an official, um, uh, like, um, file provider on NACO West, which is really, really interesting. And so you can literally have this, you know, um, in, in your finder and have like, uh, one of these drives always mounted. [00:53:25] Christina: And yes, there have been ways to, to do that for a long time through apps like Transmit and, um, a forklift and others. But this, I think, is actually a really, really smart way. And to my knowledge, I haven’t seen any others that would let you do this as like a file provider in the Files app on, on iOS. Like I’ve always had to use, you know, like a third party kind of things to do that. [00:53:47] Christina: So, um, I, I’ve only been using this for like less than 12 hours, but I’m really impressed. I think Anders is great stuff, so, um, [00:53:55] Brett: very cool. Yeah. Um, one of my jobs right now at Oracle is [00:54:00] to figure out, they have a, their object storage has an s3, a p i, uh, like you can, you can just port from Amazon to Oracle. [00:54:09] Christina: Yeah. And it’s supported. It’s, it, it’s, it’s called out as being [00:54:11] Brett: oh. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Um, I should, I should definitely write about that for Oracle. They would love that. [00:54:18] Brett: Um, yeah. Cool, cool, cool. Cool. Cool, cool. Um, uh, Brian, do you wanna, do you wanna do a pick. [00:54:26] Bryan: Sure. Yeah. Um, I switched my pick as I was thinking. This is, um, I’m gonna call out, uh, an app called SQL Pro Studio. [00:54:34] Christina: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Great app. Great [00:54:36] Bryan: part of set up, it’s made by Kyle Hankinson, who has like a sort of suite of SQL apps that he develops, uh, in independently, and then also has a mud client, which I love because it takes me back to the days of like, uh, tech space adventures. [00:54:57] Bryan: But, um, It’s such a [00:55:00] great, like if you work with databases at all, if you work, um, and like you have to query them, you often get stuck with a lot of like cross-platform Java based apps to manage those databases. And this is a fully featured like straight up, uh, you know, Mac Ask Mac app for SQL database management and I deal with SQL databases all the time at work. [00:55:29] Bryan: And so it’s really, really wonderful and I really, really love it. I used to use his apps before I got, uh, set up and was really thrilled to see them in set up. And he has iOS apps too, so if you need to manage them on iOS, you can do that as well. [00:55:42] Christina: That’s awesome. [00:55:44] Brett: Speaking of setup, they just made their family, they, they, they made some changes to their family plan that actually, for most users, made the family plan cheaper or added more seats to it. Uh, a rare instance of a [00:56:00] company modifying their pricing structure to the benefit of users for once I, [00:56:06] Bryan: amazing. [00:56:07] Christina: really great. [00:56:08] Brett: got, I got one extra seat. [00:56:09] Brett: And, and I actually, everyone in my family who needs setup already has set up. Uh, but no, I have, I have one seat. I’m gonna offer it to Jeff, see if he, uh, if he needs some, some setup. [00:56:20] Christina: Oh yeah, that’s a great idea. That’s a great idea. [00:56:23] Bryan: did you know that Setup has a corporate licensing process set up for teams, um, which is only $10 a user a month? [00:56:36] Brett: huh? [00:56:36] Christina: Oh, that’s cool. I wonder if I could get that through our, our provisioning process. [00:56:40] Bryan: Exactly. That’s what I’m having the conversation at Sonos, because I’m like the number of people who use Max at Sonos, who I know like, and to be able to have all of those apps sort of like, look, we like to rely on set apps verification process instead of having to do all the verification yourself would be great for our security team. [00:56:59] Bryan: Yeah, I [00:57:00] would think we would really love that. [00:57:01] Brett: Very cool. Um, I am going to pick hardware this week. I just got the stream deck pedal. I swore I wasn’t gonna, um, I just, all I really wanted was a cough button. Right. Um, I just wanted to like be able to mute my mic with my foot and, uh, I first tried like this $18 u s b pedal, cuz I thought for if I can do it for $18, great. [00:57:32] Brett: But the, the pedal I bought, you have to, you have to use Windows to configure it. And it has to be set to like one specific keyboard key that it will send. And, and when I plugged it into my powered u s B hub, everything shut down because it took too, it drew too much power. How does a pedal, how does a switch dropped? [00:57:55] Brett: I don’t know. I don’t, I do not understand, but it’s a piece of shit. So I was like, [00:58:00] fine, I’m gonna get the Stream deck pedal. And it has been great and Better. Touch Tool has great support for it, and you can, it has three switches on it and you can make all kinds of different things happen and you can have application specific profiles and yes, I do have, I have a, a cough button and, and it’s great, but I’ve also been playing around a lot with what I can do with, uh, with better touch tool. [00:58:26] Brett: Um, if I come up with any great automations, I’ll share them in the future. But for right now, I’m just gonna say it is a solid piece of hardware from El Gado, um, that. That does exactly what it’s advertised as. It costs like 80 bucks, which for a good piece of hardware isn’t terrible. Um, pretty happy. [00:58:46] Christina: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. I be, I, I was looking at that. I have to say, like, I, um, think that, um, whatchamacallit, um, El Gado stuff. Like I, I buy almost everything they make because [00:59:00] when it comes to the streaming gear stuff, they just, they nail it. They nail it. [00:59:04] Brett: Yeah. I have, uh, I have two stream decks and a stream deck plus, and the wave XLR and a key light and the pedal. Um, I’m, I’m in, I’m in Delgado Stan. [00:59:16] Christina: Yeah. Same. I was gonna say, go on. [00:59:19] Bryan: the only thing I don’t like, I have the wave lp, the low profile mics. It’s the low profile mic stand. [00:59:26] Brett: Okay. [00:59:27] Bryan: And it’s a little like, right? Like, like it’s loose. It doesn’t, [00:59:33] Brett: Uh, [00:59:34] Bryan: yeah. The low profile max in is the only thing that I’ve ever, yeah. [00:59:37] Brett: Their stuff’s not perfect, but for the price, it does a great job and they have a great return policy. Um, and repla, their, their customer support is very responsive. So when things do break, I’ve always been able to get a brand new one shipped to me at no charge. [00:59:52] Christina: I was gonna say, didn’t they like really like hook you up, like when one of your stream decks broke, like didn’t [00:59:56] Brett: yeah, two of them. [00:59:57] Christina: two of them? Yeah. Um, I was gonna say, [01:00:00] I’ve been impressed with that cuz I’ve got two key light errors. I have one of their stands, um, uh, that like, uh, that got, I have uh, the green screen, which I haven’t used. [01:00:09] Christina: I have the, the cam link 4k, I have the HD 60 s plus. This was all from the, you know, um, uh, working from home era. Um, [01:00:19] Christina: I, I’ve got the cam league is fantastic. Um, I’ve got the, um, you know, way to utilize your thousand dollar camera as a webcam. Uh, really good. I’ve got [01:00:28] Brett: their H 2 64 stick? [01:00:30] Christina: yes, [01:00:31] Brett: Yeah. [01:00:32] Christina: back in the day. Yeah. [01:00:34] Brett: we needed to offload our H 2 64 encoding. [01:00:37] Christina: Yeah. I mean, should I had like a, remember when they used to do like the I T V. [01:00:42] Brett: No. Oh yeah. I, I still have one of those new inbox. I found it the other [01:00:47] Bryan: what? [01:00:47] Christina: me too, actually. And what’s funny is that like obviously they sold that, that that business off or whatnot and, and they got away from their Mac roots, which is fine. Um, and, and of course Sarah’s owned them for a while, but like I will always love Al Gado, like going back to the Mac [01:01:00] days for the, the H 2 64 stick, the I t v, the itd pro, like those things cuz nobody else at that time was making, um, any of these devices that would work on the Mac and um, and to this, and it’s weird because a lot of the stuff that they make still, you can find people who will do commodity versions and will work on Windows. [01:01:18] Christina: And to your point, like you just n you literally just described it, you know, like with the pedal where people will come up with like a, a cheaper version and if you use Windows or whatever, that’s fine. But if you need that level of polish, there are not any companies that do it. And I was worried when Coursera bought them. [01:01:33] Christina: But they’ve only expanded. They’ve only gotten better. And I think course has actually been very smart about recognizing we have the kind of premium streaming brand in this space. And by premium I mean like for normal people to buy. Not like getting into the professional, oh my God, Brian is showing us their puppy. [01:01:52] Christina: And it is the cutest thing that I’ve ever seen. [01:01:55] Bryan: Yeah, Nathan just opened the door and he didn’t know I was podcasting, and so I just [01:02:00] got like three more of our puppies. This is Dr. Pink. [01:02:05] Christina: Dr. Pink, [01:02:06] Bryan: He’s a tricolor. [01:02:09] Christina: this is so great. [01:02:10] Bryan: Yeah. [01:02:11] Brett: yeah, I would, I would also mention that the stream deck pedal comes with a box of, uh, springs and switches, so you can [01:02:19] Bryan: Oh, nice. [01:02:20] Brett: tension and the, uh, tactility of the pedal. That’s [01:02:25] Bryan: brilliant. That’s really nice. [01:02:27] Christina: really good. [01:02:29] Brett: All right. Well, I think that wraps up, uh, a good, a good episode. Thanks for being here, Brian. [01:02:36] Bryan: Always. You know that. Always be here. [01:02:39] Brett: Thank you too, Christina. It’s always nice to have you. [01:02:41] Christina: Thank you. Thank you. And Brian? Yes. Thank you for joining us. Um, we love having you and, uh, this is a good talk. I’m, I’m glad that, uh, [01:02:48] Bryan: It’s always great to [01:02:49] Christina: got to catch [01:02:49] Bryan: both of you. [01:02:51] Brett: All right, you guys get some sleep. [01:02:53] Christina: Get some sleep. [01:02:55] Bryan: Get some sleep. That was Dr. Pink. [01:02:57] Christina: I.[01:03:00]

Erin Dawson joins Brett and Christina to discuss how to spend drink tickets, the origins of hashish, Titan implosions, and picks for grAPPtitude. Sponsor Factor gives you fresh, never frozen meals, ready to eat in two minutes. Save 50% on your first box with code overtired50 at factormeals.com/overtired50. Show Links Titan implosion Reality Launchbar Launchbar Gallery on GitHub and GitHub repo Service Station iA Presenter Deckset Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Den of Iniquity [00:00:00] Christina: [00:00:02] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired, a podcast about people who are tired. And, uh, d h d. I’m Christina Warren. Um, right now, this is a great, uh, episode for, uh, for, for you to join us for, because Mr. Brett Terpstra is very tired. He has not slept. Um, uh, Jeff Severance Gunzel is in Africa, so he’s, I don’t [00:00:26] Brett: Prob probably not sleeping. [00:00:28] Christina: probably not sleeping. [00:00:30] Christina: And, and our guest, Aaron Dawson, you are, you are hungover, which I think is like very related to tired in many cases. [00:00:38] Christina: So, um, I’m like the only one, I guess who, who’s not that tired, but, [00:00:45] Brett: That’s unusual. [00:00:46] Christina: It is unusual. Um, so anyway, th this is our show. Welcome to Overtired to everyone. [00:00:51] Brett: You do seem perky. [00:00:52] Christina: Yeah. [00:00:53] Brett: Yeah, I like, I like perky. Christina. [00:00:56] Christina: Perky. Christina is a, is definitely better than like, bitchy, like, [00:01:00] you know, like tired, hangry Christina. For sure. [00:01:04] Brett: Yeah. So Erin, why are you hungover? [00:01:07] How to spend 6 drink tickets [00:01:07] Erin: Oh, I thought you’d never ask. I, um, I have a one person medal band called Genital Shame, and I, it’s not o always only me. I toured US and Canada with a full band, like less than a month ago, uh, for which I took off work and it was great. And so I played like to a backing track, uh, and afterwards, um, so I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, the Paris of southwest pa. Everyone knows that. And so I traveled to Morgantown where I went to college, uh, Morgantown, West Virginia. Um, and so afterwards, cuz you get drink tickets, right? Uh, Brett, you’ve played live shows. [00:01:54] Erin: I don’t know about you Christina, but one of the great things about playing live is you get drink tickets. And so [00:02:00] that’s step zero, um, to my, my fate. Uh, and [00:02:06] Brett: drink tickets did you get? [00:02:09] Erin: so you get six one qualifies. [00:02:13] Christina: That’s a lot. That’s [00:02:14] Brett: That’s so [00:02:15] Erin: generous. So one. [00:02:17] Christina: these are like full pores. Like they weren’t like watering your shit down. [00:02:22] Erin: No, no, absolutely not. One gets you a P B R or similar, two gets you pretty much everything else. For me, it’s a Nette and Coke. That’s, that’s my drink. [00:02:33] Brett: What’s Fornet? [00:02:35] Christina: That’s, [00:02:35] Erin: It’s a, [00:02:36] Christina: that’s like a whiskey. [00:02:38] Brett: Okay. [00:02:39] Erin: it’s not a French drink, it’s an Italian liquor. Um. [00:02:43] Christina: Oh yeah, I’ve had Fernet. Yeah, that’s, it comes in like a special kind of bottle or whatever. [00:02:47] Erin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And after the show, uh, went and saw drag, um, [00:02:54] Brett: sure. [00:02:54] Erin: a drag show. So, you know, gay bars. Gay bars are great because the drinks are really [00:03:00] bad and they’re really overpriced, but they’re really cold. Like I’m looking for a, [00:03:06] Brett: You’re really selling it. [00:03:08] Erin: yeah. Um, but drag [00:03:11] Brett: have no other reason to go to a drag bar, show up for these overpriced but very cold drinks. [00:03:18] Erin: And I love the smell of bleach, which I feel like most, most gay bars feature and my absolutely not researched. Uh, take on that is probably due to like after the, during and after the AIDS crisis, um, gay bars get this, um, reputation as a sort of den of not just inequity, but also for like, like disease Yes. [00:03:47] Erin: Virus. And so if you make the senses, if the first impression is like, oh, clean, then you’re more likely to feel comfortable. That’s, I have never heard anyone say that. I do not know if that is true. [00:04:00] Um, but I love it. [00:04:00] Christina: maybe. I mean, that is great. I was gonna say, I. I, because when I would think of like the d inequity with like the, the virus, I would think of, um, bathhouses, which incidentally there was one, like I can see it from my apartment. And, uh, that, that’s, [00:04:15] Erin: steam rising from, [00:04:16] Christina: Yeah. Basically, well, it, it, it is called steam works and, and no, but I, I can like lit, I can, I can literally see it from my, uh, from, from my apartment. [00:04:24] Christina: Um, so that’s what I always think, um, is, uh, is that, but yeah, I think you might make a good point, and I have a feeling bathhouses too is like [00:04:32] Erin: mm-hmm. [00:04:32] Christina: cleanliness would be the, the first thing that you would wanna do in, in a place that feels like it’s quasi legal as a concept. Just being honest, like even putting the whole, like, you know, spreading the disease thing aside, it does feel weird that there’s a place that you pay a cover and can basically just like fuck random people, like in quasi public. [00:04:57] Christina: I mean, I love it too. I’m just surprised that we [00:05:00] were, we were a country found up of Puritan. I, I am surprised that this is like a thing that has ever been legal in this country. That’s all. Like, I’m not, I’m not against it. I’m just saying that, that seem, that seems like a very European thing. Doesn’t seem like a Super American thing. [00:05:14] Erin: Totally true. Speaking of cleanliness, the hotel I stayed in last night, I’ve never seen this before. This hotel was a little fancy. They had the TV remote in a plastic bag, [00:05:25] Christina: Oh, yeah, [00:05:26] Erin: makes me feel, I don’t watch hotel TV usually. Really? Um, but that makes me feel good, keeping up with the illusion of no one has ever stayed here. [00:05:35] Erin: You are the first person to do that. We just got this out of the Amazon, a three box or whatever. It’s for you, [00:05:43] Christina: Yeah. [00:05:44] Brett: change the plastic bag? Because if you don’t change the plastic bag, then it’s the same as having a dirty remote. [00:05:53] Christina: I don’t know. This was, that was the covid thing that they started doing. [00:05:57] Brett: Okay. [00:05:59] Erin: The idea to me [00:06:00] is the plastic bag tells you that someone has removed the remote, wiped it down with one of those things you get when you eat wings [00:06:07] Christina: Yep. [00:06:08] Erin: does. In fact, it wipes. I guess they’re called [00:06:10] Brett: Towelette. [00:06:11] Christina: A moist towelette. [00:06:12] Erin: a very moist, but not too moist because it’s an electronic device. Yeah. And then you put it back in the bag. [00:06:20] Erin: But you’re saying maybe they just replace the bag and they don’t worry about disinfect. I don’t know. [00:06:26] Brett: Wait, so what? To use it, you pull it out from the bag. [00:06:31] Erin: Correct. [00:06:32] Brett: So you are seeing the bag as like a, A safety tab? Like a pro? Yes. Like something that was replaced be that indicates that it had been cleaned. [00:06:44] Erin: It’s telling you a story. [00:06:46] Brett: my head you are using the pla, the remote through a plastic bag. [00:06:51] Christina: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not how it works. [00:06:54] Erin: I would [00:06:54] Christina: could, but [00:06:55] Erin: to be extra safe. [00:06:57] Christina: no, cuz I’ve seen these. No, cuz the, the way [00:07:00] it’s designed is basically to, it was a covid thing and it’s like, cuz I never, I mean, it’s possible. People did it before Covid. I never saw it before. [00:07:07] Christina: Covid. And so I think the idea is to show that they have been. To, to Erin’s Point took like the, the disinfectant towelette, like, I’m not even gonna say the one that you use for wings. I’m gonna say like, the one that, like, it’s not a makeup wipe, but it’s the one that has like some antiseptic on it. Like, it’s basically like isopropyl alcohol, like on a little pad. [00:07:26] Christina: Like it’s, it’s the one that would come in the bag to clean your camera lens, right? Like, like it’s one of those things. And so they would use that, they would wipe over the remote and then they would have a plastic bag, which I’m sure is probably a one-time use thing that they would put it in, put tape on it, and then put it on the um, uh, you know, armoire or whatever. [00:07:47] Christina: So that when people come in, they’re like, oh, we’ve actually gone through the steps and cleaned this room. And for me, what would make me feel better about the cleanliness wouldn’t even be the fact that like the, you know, remote is in the bag, [00:08:00] but if they went through all those steps, because if you went through all those steps, then to me it’s much more likely that you actually did like, Dust and vacuum and change the sheets and that I’m not sleeping on someone else’s like, you know, bodily fluids [00:08:14] Brett: Yeah. Okay. Okay, so you got, you got six drink tickets and apparently it costs two tickets to get something other than shitty beer. So you start with a A something in Coke. [00:08:30] Christina: for nut and coke. [00:08:32] Brett: Yes. And, and then what happens? [00:08:35] Erin: The best usage of six drink tickets to me is two cocktails. Although I learned recently a Fernet and Coke doesn’t even qualify as a cocktail, cuz a cocktail requires three things. To be a cocktail. Much like in music, you need three notes to make a chord. Anything else is just an interval. [00:09:00] You need, um, a spirit, you need a citrus component and you need a bass. [00:09:06] Erin: Anything else is just a mixed drink. [00:09:08] Christina: I was gonna say I did, I, I, I didn’t know the exact like thing, but I would’ve described what you got. Not as a cocktail, but as a mixed drink. [00:09:16] Erin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:09:17] Christina: yeah. [00:09:18] Erin: And then to me, I feel like this might say a lot about a person, like how would you spend six drink tickets? What is the biggest bang for the buck for me? And this is how I would do it, and how I did do it two mixed drinks, or two cocktails, two PBRs, [00:09:34] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:09:35] Brett: Sure. [00:09:36] Erin: right. And then to the gay bar where I get. [00:09:39] Brett: front load. Front load with the cocktails. Chase with the P B R and then head to the gay bar. [00:09:47] Erin: And this was my error, right? Because I mixed liquor, beer with liquor. And now I’m sicker because I went to the gay bar. You don’t really drink beer at a gay bar. [00:09:57] Christina: No, no, no, no. You drink cocktails. I was gonna [00:10:00] say, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that’s when, that’s when you’re drinking, you’re, you’re really overpriced cosmopolitans or vodka cranberries or whatever, and the screwdriver. Yeah. Which are great. Or you know, whatever, uh, something to receive. For me, it’s usually like a, a cranberry component. [00:10:16] Christina: And, um, and you find out that they, they cost $15 and then at that point, you’re so drunk, you don’t care and you order five more. Um, not that that’s ever happened to me at gay bars before. Um, and then that’s completely happened to me. Um, and, uh, and you’re just like, but I don’t care. I’m, [00:10:33] Erin: And what’s more, [00:10:34] Christina: drinks. [00:10:35] Christina: Yeah, [00:10:36] Erin: And what’s more, they had like the, um, scantily clad women with the little trays with shots on them. The shots are $5. They taste like an icicle. Oh, really? [00:10:49] Brett: bar there, scantily clad women at the gay bar. [00:10:53] Christina: Sure. Girl. [00:10:54] Erin: Oh, yes. [00:10:55] Brett: I must have grown up in a different era. [00:10:59] Erin: It’s a [00:11:00] very diverse. [00:11:00] Christina: I was gonna say at this point, gay bars are a lot more diverse. I, I, but, but, and, and, uh, yeah, I used to be a shooter girl. Actually, that’s the only type [00:11:09] Brett: What does that [00:11:10] Christina: that, that is those girls who sell the shots. Because how, what, how that works is that you pay $3 for the shots and then you can sell them for whatever you can sell them for. [00:11:18] Christina: So it’s a game of arbitrage. So depending on, on like how hot you look and how good you are selling things, depends on how much you [00:11:25] Brett: and how drunk the customers are. [00:11:27] Christina: yes. Um, but, but you have to sell, but you have to buy the entire tray upfront. So like, I have to pay 50 bucks or whatever upfront, and then I have to make, and then whatever profit I make, I keep, but yeah. [00:11:42] Christina: So. [00:11:43] Brett: idea that is. I had no idea. This is, this is all news to me. My drink at gay bars, actually my drink at First Avenue too, like I loved, I knew a girl who was a bartender at [00:12:00] First Avenue and she gave me my drinks for free. And what I would always order was a triple tequila sunrise, [00:12:09] Christina: Oh my God. I can’t drink a tequila at all, but, but, uh, [00:12:13] Brett: but a tequila sunrise is like peach. I don’t even remember what else in a tequila sunrise. But it’s very fruity. It’s very fruity. So, [00:12:23] Christina: yes, it is. Yeah, I, the, the, I do remember that. I just, I can’t, I, I cannot drink any tequila at all. Even the smell of it, I’m just like, Nope. [00:12:32] Erin: Going back to the shooter girl arbitrage thing, like it seems like the difficulty in that for me would be when to move on from engaging with a customer. Because you wanna have a reputation of someone who’s flirty, which is like half the battle, I would assume, but it’s in your best interest to keep those interactions brief. [00:12:54] Erin: So yeah, it’s very diplomatic. Probably kind of. [00:12:57] Christina: No, it is, it’s a diplomatic thing. Thank you so [00:13:00] much. Here you go. You know, move on to the next person and then maybe if they, if they wanna buy more, if they wanna engage, fine. Like if sometimes, like if somebody buys a whole tray, which will happen sometimes it’ll be like, I’ll give you a hundred bucks. [00:13:11] Christina: You know, so they’re gonna pay double or whatever. Okay. You know, st stand around and talk for a few minutes and then give them the tray and then you’d be like, I’ve gotta go get more, you know, when I’ll see you, see you in a little bit. And then like, Not, you know, um, so yeah, it, there, you’re right, there is like that level to it. [00:13:28] Christina: But, but it totally depends. And yes, there will be people who will buy the whole tray, you know, for, for them and their, and their, their boys or for themselves or whatever. And you’re just like, Hey, I’m not the one who has to, you know, check any of that. That’s not on me. Um, yeah. Yeah. That was the only [00:13:45] Brett: At what age should you do this? [00:13:48] Christina: like 20 to 22. [00:13:50] Brett: Okay. [00:13:51] Christina: It was like a, it was like a, not a super frequent thing. It would be like a, an occasional kind of, um, [00:13:57] Brett: But it’s the kind of job you can just walk [00:14:00] in and be like, I’m your, I’m your shock girl for the night. [00:14:04] Christina: So my, my older sister worked in, um, uh, bars and stuff and, and she was actually a very good bartender. See, this is what I loved about it. I didn’t have to be a bartender. I just had to like look hot and be flirty and, and be good at arbitrage, which that is actually what I’m, I’m good at. Like, I was good at the sales part. [00:14:20] Christina: Um, and, and she needed somebody to help out, basically. One of her girlfriends like probably got too drunk or something, and so she was like, literally like at her last end. And so she was like, I will call my baby sister. And I was like, I need some cash. It’s the same way that I was a booth babe once, um, which was an awful experience, but [00:14:40] Brett: you say I need some cash or I need some hash. [00:14:43] Christina: cash. [00:14:43] Christina: Cash, um, I, yeah, I, I, yeah, I was gonna say, I, I don’t, I didn’t do, I didn’t do drugs or anything then. Um, and uh, yeah, but that was the exact same way that I was a booth, uh, a booth babe once was because, um, one of Kelly’s friends. Bitched out. And uh, so I had to do a thing for a [00:15:00] pharmaceutical company and I was like, the money was not worth it. [00:15:04] Christina: And it was a lot of money. It was like, not like what the booth PAs at CES and things like that would be paid, like the pharmaceutical reps paid a lot more, but I was like, not, not into this. So I think usually you’d have to show up and probably like for to be, you do have to have a liquor license, um, to, uh, to, to be a shooter girl. [00:15:24] Christina: But like it’s a one page form. Like it takes no time. Like it’s literally nothing. But you don’t have to mix any drinks. You’re literally just buying shots and then selling them for a higher price unless it’s a really slow night or something’s fucked. And then you could potentially have to sell them like lower. [00:15:41] Christina: And that’s why, that’s why you’re nice to the guys who like will buy the full trays. And it is always guys who buy the full trays, like girls don’t. I mean, they will buy stuff, but they won’t, they, they won’t spend that type of money. [00:15:52] Brett: All right. Side, side, side anecdote. I was at c e s one year and I was at a Nikon booth [00:16:00] and there were half dressed women on like a runway of sorts, and one of them stops and goes, Brett, I, it turns out, turns out I had a cousin who was a booth aid. Anyway, all right, back to the story. I feel like we haven’t reached the, [00:16:23] Christina: The [00:16:23] Brett: far. So far. We’re at a couple cocktails and a couple PBRs, which for me that’s, I’m, I wake up the next morning, I’m fine. So where do we go from here? [00:16:34] Erin: I think the, [00:16:38] Erin: the real fatal error that I made was staying up until three 30. That, I mean, it’s, it’s that easy or that simple, right? Um, and, and was like my college town or like going to grad school and everything. And so like I [00:16:52] Brett: been to grad school, what degree do you have? [00:16:56] Erin: Rhetoric, basically English. [00:16:59] Brett: [00:17:00] English. You have a [00:17:01] Erin: Professional. I have a ma Yeah. I studied music for, uh, undergrad and I, here’s, here’s the, the program, right? English colon professional writing and editing. p w e. But I wanna say something real quick about hash, about which I know nothing. I, [00:17:20] Brett: This is such an D H D conversation. [00:17:24] Erin: well, I wanted to say it earlier, but you [00:17:26] Christina: No, no, no. Please, please interject. [00:17:28] Erin: your cousin. Um, this is the stupidest thing I’m about to say. Um, I wanna get a rumor started that hash got that name as a drug because it gives you a similar dopamine rush as eating hash browns, [00:17:44] Christina: Huh? I, you know what? I, I could believe that, I could [00:17:48] Erin: cuz hash browns give me a lot of dopamine. Anyways, so, Went [00:17:53] Christina: love a hash brown. If, if, if hash were more like hash browns, I’d be more into hash. I’m not gonna [00:17:58] Erin: this is what I’m saying. [00:18:00] What do you call people who are addicted to hash [00:18:03] Brett: why Google? Why is it called hash? [00:18:08] Erin: But to close the loop on this, on this night out, I, I went to like the college pizza place and got some slices and then went to bed way too late. And that’s, you know, [00:18:19] Christina: And, and now that’s when you like, discover that like you’re, you’re not actually 25 anymore. And then, [00:18:25] Erin: Oh dear. Yeah, that is true. [00:18:28] Christina: Yeah, that, that used to happen with me when I would go out with my interns and, and I would be like, I did it a few times and I was like still able to completely hang and they were all like 10 years younger than me and I was like, fuck yeah, I’m so cool. [00:18:40] Christina: And then like there was like one night when it, it, it did not at all. Like I think, I think I puked in the cab, so I had to pay like the $70, like, like cleanup fee, which, you know, whatever. Like not the first time that somebody’s ever puked in a New York City cab. Like, probably not in the first time, but, but might not, you know, that day exactly. [00:18:59] Christina: I was gonna be like, I [00:19:00] was like, you you, you pay the fee, you’re fine. Whatever. Um, and uh, better a cab than an Uber. Cuz those, those fuckers are stingy from what I understand. But um, you know, and so it was one of those scenarios and then I was just like, So hungover the next day. And I was like, oh, wow. You were, you were actually not 22 anymore. [00:19:17] Christina: Um, which was very depressing for me to have to come to that realization. But yeah, the, the late night going to the pizza place. Now, did that help with your hangover? Cuz For me, it usually does, depending on what time I stopped drinking. Like, depending on when I stopped drinking. If I get food in my system, that usually does help with the hangover. [00:19:35] Erin: did. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. [00:19:38] Christina: good girl. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m proud of you for that because [00:19:41] Erin: you. Thank you. [00:19:42] Christina: there’s [00:19:42] Erin: easy to forget to eat [00:19:44] Christina: it is, it is now. [00:19:47] Erin: will do this again. [00:19:48] Christina: Yeah. Now I have like a very strict rule that I learned again from the, uh, older sister who, um, was like a, a bad, well no, actually these were very good life lessons, but like, she taught me [00:20:00] because I, um, especially back then, like. [00:20:03] Christina: Didn’t weigh a whole lot. And so even though I had like a pretty high tolerance, like there’s a certain point when you’re like, you’re just gonna throw up. Cuz it’s just a, it’s just a body weight issue. And so I would have a thing, like if I puked like before 12, then it’s like a puke and rally. Like you continue to drink and you continue to go. [00:20:22] Christina: But if it’s like after 12, 12 30, then it’s like you’ve gotta call it a night. Otherwise you’re gonna have like the hangover from hell the next day. [00:20:29] Erin: What rhymes with 12 beer? Beer before. Liquor never. Sicker. Puke. Be before 12. Wake up. [00:20:38] Christina: Well [00:20:40] Erin: S n l, what’d you say? [00:20:42] Brett: elf. [00:20:43] Christina: Wake of elf. [00:20:44] Erin: Pick up an elf. [00:20:45] Christina: Wake of an elf. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that, that was, uh, I, I was, I was reminding my, my sister, um, about that a few months ago about the, the puke and rally and she was like, I did not teach you that. I’m like, yes, you did. And she was like, yes, I [00:21:00] did. [00:21:00] Erin: Yeah. [00:21:02] Brett: Puke before 12 into darkness. You delve. [00:21:07] Erin: Whoa. [00:21:10] Brett: So, [00:21:10] Erin: wait because wait. Puking four 12 is good. [00:21:13] Christina: Yes. That’s [00:21:13] Brett: Oh, puke before 12 into health. You, I don’t know. Fuck. [00:21:19] Christina: puke after 12 into darkness. [00:21:21] Erin: D. [00:21:21] Christina: See, that would be good. [00:21:23] Brett: Okay, so I hate to interrupt this story. We gotta do a sponsor break. [00:21:28] Sponsor: Factor [00:21:28] Brett: Now that it’s summer, you might be looking for wholesome, convenient meals for sunny active days Factor. America’s number one ready to eat meal kit can help you fuel up fast with flavorful and nutritious, ready to eat meals delivered straight to your door. You’ll save time, eat well, and stay on track reaching your goals. [00:21:49] Brett: Too busy with summer plans to cook, but wanna make sure you’re eating well. With factors, skip the trip to the grocery store and skip the chopping, prepping and cleaning up [00:22:00] too, while still getting the flavor and nutritional quality. You need factors fresh. Never frozen. Meals are ready in just two minutes, so all you have to do is heat and enjoy, and then get back to the outside and soak up warm weather. 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They offer 100% of their delivery emissions to your door source. 100% of renewable energy for their production sites and offices and features sustainably sourced seafood in their meals. [00:24:31] Brett: Head to Factor meals.com/ Overtired 50 and use the code Overtired 50 to get 50% off your first box. That’s code Overtired fifty@factormeals.com slash Overtired 50 to get 50% off your first box. [00:24:52] Hash Browns [00:24:52] Brett: Yeah, I feel like, I feel like I, I got through that. Were you worried? Were you worried about me? [00:24:58] Christina: That was a little bit, but no, I [00:25:00] think, I think you nailed it. And, uh, thank you Factor [00:25:02] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we, we appreciate sponsorships are lean right now, [00:25:09] Christina: sponsorships are real lean right now. See, we, we need, if we need, like, honestly, like if, if the sponsors were just willing to offer us drink tickets, like I’d be get some pvs, you know, two mixed drinks. Uh, but I do have to say, I think that you did like nail like the, the balance of how to get the most bang for your buck, like getting like two, two beers. [00:25:30] Christina: Um, or like in my case, I would try to see like, would they, well, I guess this is the question. Would they give you a white claw? Like could you get a white claw in, in, in exchange for P B R. [00:25:40] Erin: I think so. I think [00:25:41] Christina: Okay. Cuz that’s what I would do. I would do, I would do like two white claws, um, or, or another sorts of like, you know, like alcoholic seltzer and, and then, um, uh, two mixed drinks or, or cocktails [00:25:54] Erin: That is a, that’s a great way to divvy it up, just to close the loop on addictive [00:26:00] substances and otherwise, why is it called hash? Did you figure that out? Brett? [00:26:04] Brett: I did not. I looked up, I, I googled I duck dot, go. Uh, Why is it called hash? And I got a bunch of stuff about hashtags and then one about about why like breakfast. Breakfast is called hash. [00:26:22] Christina: Yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m trying to figure this out right now. Um, to see like the, uh, cuz it. I think that, okay. This is what I think that it is. It’s, it’s technically, it’s hashish and, and it comes from, um, uh, north India, Nepal have a long social tradition in the production of Hashish, um, uh, known as Charo. [00:26:43] Christina: And then the, the term Hashish was used in a pamphlet published in Cairo 1123 Ce, accusing the Zari Muslims of being Hashish eaters. And then that led to some other things. I think that it was just, I think it [00:27:00] just has to be because it’s a, it’s the shorter version. I think it’s, I think that’s boring, but I think that’s what it’s, [00:27:07] Erin: Is that an opioid thing or a a opium flower thing? Like what? I don’t even know what it is. Sorry. This is not what this podcast is it? [00:27:15] Brett: is is weed. That’s, there’s an extraction process that turns it into like a concentrated, uh, Yeah, I don’t know that much about hash, [00:27:27] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I’m like, yeah, I was gonna say, I was like looking into this whole thing and, uh, yeah. Okay. I, let me just, actually, let me Google. Why is Hashish [00:27:39] Brett: This is great radio. [00:27:41] Christina: It is great Radio. Um, I did find a short history that we, I we’re gonna link it in the show notes. You can read it. I’m not gonna read it on the air, but you, you, but you, but you can read it in the show notes. [00:27:52] Christina: But there’s a sh there is in fact a short history sponsored by Kinon, so you know it’s gonna be good[00:28:00] [00:28:00] Erin: Where’s everyone on this podcast? Stand on the great hash brown versus home fries debate. I’m kidding. I don’t really wanna talk about that. I mean, obviously [00:28:08] Christina: I’m sorry, I’m, I’m sorry. It’s hash browns and I think that anybody who says home fries, i i, you, you’re kicked out of the table. You’re not allowed to [00:28:14] Brett: fries? What? What does home fries mean? Is this. [00:28:19] Christina: you know, you know, they’re like the, you know, home fries. They’re like little [00:28:21] Brett: I don’t, I’m, I’m from Minnesota and I’ve never heard of home fries. I’ve heard of hot dish. I know what a casserole is. [00:28:29] Christina: no, no. Ho Home fries are like the, like the potato, they’re like the fries that ha still have like the skins on the back and aren’t really fries. They’re like the potato kind of bits things. And then they put them in the skillet. [00:28:40] Erin: You dice a [00:28:41] Brett: people eat them for breakfast [00:28:42] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:43] Erin: sure. [00:28:44] Brett: Okay. Yeah. I can’t, I can’t weigh in on this because I’ve only ever had hash browns for breakfast. [00:28:53] Christina: Yeah, I, um, yeah, I definitely, so yeah, it’s more like the diced potato stuff, but they still have the skins on them. We put ’em in a skillet, [00:29:00] usually with like oil and, and some seasoning. I don’t like them, and in fact, when I get them at a breakfast place, I’m usually disappointed. I’m like, do I have, can I have another potato option? [00:29:11] Christina: Because to me it’s my least favorite potato preparation. Um, [00:29:15] Brett: your own hash browns? Have you ever made hash browns? [00:29:18] Christina: No. [00:29:19] Erin: It’s difficult. You have to, um, get a mandoline and treat your potatoes that way, and then get cheese cloth, rinse, uh, squeeze all [00:29:28] Brett: that’s, that’s the tr like you can just use a kitchen towel, but you like put ’em all in there. You roll it up and then you twist it from both ends. That learning, that changed my hash brown game, now I can make good hash browns [00:29:42] Christina: My dad makes good hash browns. My dad also makes home fries because they’re easier to make and I’m like, I don’t want home fries. Um, my dad does make good hash browns though. Um, because he’ll do, um, uh, like what is, what is one of the, what’s the something in hash, like meal? Like there’s some [00:30:00] sort of, um, meat that goes with it. [00:30:04] Brett: a breakfast skillet. [00:30:06] Christina: no, but the, it’s some, it’s called something in hash. Um, um, but uh, [00:30:13] Erin: and mash something’s in hash. [00:30:17] Christina: but because cuz I think he uses some sort of like, uh, even like, I don’t know if like there’s a canned meat in, in involved or, or, or what, but um, But my dad, my dad makes that pretty well, and um, cuz he’s a very good cook. But yeah, I’m not into home fries. I will say this, my favorite of all of them, if I have a real option at a breakfast place, which is rare to get this option, unfortunately, but if I can get like a, a, a ta tater tot, like that’s, I love a tater tot [00:30:48] Erin: To me that is taught food, that is toddler food. And I’m not above eating food below my age class, but breakfast, nah. But I respect,[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Christina: yeah, no, I have the palette of a five-year-old, so it actually completely like, matches me. But like, no, I do, um, I, I’m from the south where like, I’m literally from like the city where, uh, waffle House is, was born Atlanta. And so like, Yeah, like I, I, I love, I love like a, a good like hash brown, like, especially like a scattered, like, like, you know, you, you order your, your hash browns a certain way at Waffle House. [00:31:24] Christina: Um, I was there earlier this month for, uh, for a conference and we were waiting in line to get into a club that was where the official after party for this event was supposed to be. And it was a ridiculous line. And then they were charging a cover even for people who we’d paid like pretty expensive. [00:31:40] Christina: Like the conference tickets were pretty expensive. And we were in line for a while. Some of my friends were already inside, and I was like, how is it? And they’re like, it’s pretty shitty. So I was like, we’re not going into this. And then I was trying to rally some people to go to a strip club, but that wasn’t working out. [00:31:54] Christina: And so long story short, we wound up at Waffle House and it was delightful. And I wasn’t even drunk, which [00:32:00] was the most impressive part, honestly. [00:32:02] Erin: Yeah, my, [00:32:03] Brett: wa Waffle House when your friends won’t go to the strip club. [00:32:06] Christina: Yeah. [00:32:08] Erin: my plan to demean your nominally tech-based podcast with potato discourse and [00:32:16] Christina: Are you, are you [00:32:16] Erin: discourse is working [00:32:18] Christina: No, I, we, we love it. Like look, we, we, we were a Taylor Swift podcast for like four years, so [00:32:24] Erin: Oh dear, [00:32:24] Christina: is fine. [00:32:25] Brett: I, I like that tagline too. Nominally. Nominally. Attack podcast. [00:32:30] Christina: I like, I really like that actually, that’s, I think that, that we need to like, put on the website [00:32:34] Erin: yours. [00:32:36] We should talk about tech [00:32:36] Brett: Um, j can I interject a little bit of tech? [00:32:39] Christina: please [00:32:40] Brett: So, okay. I needed to test my applications on the Beta os, um, and so, This time I was not gonna make the mistake of loading a Beta os on my main machine. So I set [00:33:00] up a partition and I went to download the installer for Sonoma and somehow manage to it. Never asked me what partition to install on, like it never came up. [00:33:19] Christina: Oh God. [00:33:19] Brett: installed it. So now I’m left with a machine that can no longer run. Um, well it, overall it’s pretty good. Obviously all the Rogue Omega apps are not working. Um, I’m doing okay. We’re recording this podcast onset machine. Um, I could, I could install, um, what was the last one? [00:33:45] Christina: Ventura, [00:33:46] Brett: Then I couldn’t solve Ventura on a partition and like boot into it if it were an [00:33:51] Christina: excuse me. It’s an a p f. It’s an p f s volume. Excuse me, A container. Excuse me. It’s an ap f s container. Um, I, I don’t care. I’m, I’m making fun of the [00:34:00] people who, who will, will yell at you about that. [00:34:03] Brett: Fair enough. Um, but yeah, so, so. It turns out marked my, my primary commercial application. The direct version of it will not run as is on Sonoma. And I have been in, uh, a Slack channel with like the best of the best Mac developers. We’re talking Daniel Gel cut. We’re talking Rich Siegel. Like all these people are trying to help me [00:34:35] Christina: best. [00:34:36] Brett: Yeah, we’re trying to debug this problem and we are getting nowhere. And it’s bizarre because the Mac App store version and the set app version of the same app using the same code don’t crash. Uh, it’s just very specific to the paddle version, but compiling it without all of the framework specific to the paddle [00:35:00] version doesn’t make any difference. [00:35:01] Brett: It still crashes every fucking time and I cannot figure it out. So that’s, that’s my tech update. [00:35:08] Christina: Uh, that sucks. I am so sorry. Um, although, I mean, I am glad that at least you’ve like, figured this out this early in the cycle. [00:35:16] Brett: Yeah. [00:35:17] Christina: Like that. That’s the one kind of good news. Um, the bad news is because now they’ve, um, I think like made the betas basically like free for everybody from the get go is that you have more users who are installing this shit. [00:35:32] Christina: And then I, I imagine that especially like some of your user base, you’re getting like support requests for things and, and it’s like, [00:35:38] Brett: Not yet, but it [00:35:39] Christina: it will [00:35:40] Brett: I don’t solve this soon, it will happen. [00:35:42] Christina: Which is annoying to me because I’m like, look, do not expect like people to have stuff supported before it officially comes out. You’ve chosen to install the beta, like, fuck you for expecting anything to work like. [00:35:54] Christina: It’s one of the reasons why I don’t install the betas on my phone anymore, like my primary phone anymore, because a lot of financial [00:36:00] apps aren’t updated until the very end, which makes complete sense, and I completely understand that. But then I’m just kinda like, well, you know, I, I need to use my banking apps. [00:36:08] Christina: Um, or, uh, actually how that switched was when I, when I joined Microsoft, there were some things with our M D M solution, which I used, um, I was forced to use, uh, on, on my phone that like, um, would oftentimes not work in the betas. And I would be like, well, I can either get email on my phone, which is a pseudo requirement, or I can run the latest beta, but I can’t do both. [00:36:33] Christina: Um, so GitHub doesn’t make me install an MDM on my phone, and so I won’t. Um, but, uh, yeah. [00:36:43] Brett: Yeah. Yep. I got a, [00:36:45] Christina: get to figure this out. [00:36:47] Brett: I got a new Apple watch though. I finally, [00:36:50] Christina: you finally got a, got an eight. [00:36:52] Brett: I had a series five and, and, and yeah, it had been working fine, so I hadn’t considered upgrading [00:37:00] it, but then the battery started to go. Um, I was having to charge more than once a day, which was for a watch that’s just untenable. [00:37:09] Brett: So I figured it was time for an upgrade. And I got the current what series A, is that what I have? I don’t even [00:37:16] Christina: Yeah. Series eight. Yeah. So, so, so you, you didn’t get the Ultra or whatever it’s called? [00:37:20] Brett: no. [00:37:20] Christina: No. Yeah. That thing is, that thing is hideous in my opinion. I know some people love it, but I find it ridiculously ugly. [00:37:29] Brett: okay. Yeah, so, [00:37:31] Christina: here’s the thing though. [00:37:32] Brett: but nothing changed. It’s all the same to me. [00:37:35] Christina: No, totally. It just, your battery’s gonna work better and it’ll last longer. Um, which is honestly, I think the best thing about the watch, uh, let me just say about the Apple Watch Ultra. The reason I think that it’s. Ugly is because it’s very clearly a men’s watch. And I think that it is, it’s a men’s watch and, and it doesn’t like work well on people who have small wrist like me, like me, a person who the smallest band is [00:38:00] sometimes borderline too big. [00:38:02] Christina: Um, so like when I wear that thing, some people are like, oh, it kind of looks good oversized on your wrist. I’m like, Hmm, not really. Um, it’s also sort of industrial looking and that’s fine. I just, when I, when I saw them do the rollout last year, I was like, congratulations, you’ve given us a men’s watch. And like you notice that they have like, no women, like photos of, of them on it. [00:38:24] The Titan [00:38:24] Christina: And, uh, and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s kind of a garment sort of thing. So I’m, I’m sure that it has great features for people who care about running and, uh, going underwater. Um, that’s, that’s not me. Speaking of underwater. Okay. Kind of cop thought, but. Because the submersible for the, the Titanic, the, the, the, the, the titan, the, the Ocean Gate submersible, because that thing apparently, like, I guess it, it exploded or, or whatever. [00:38:55] Christina: Um, imploded, sorry, imploded, um, during dissent, [00:39:00] um, because that company was like shady as fuck and they didn’t have any of the basic safety precautions, which they were not required to have by law. And, uh, James Cameron, who kept his mouth shut until it was confirmed that everybody was gone. Um, and then was giving hella interviews, which I think is the correct thing. [00:39:19] Christina: Cause everybody wanted to hear from him because he’s weirdly like the foremost expert on this entire space. Like probably in the world. No, he’s like gone to the Mariana Trench, like he’s, he did 33 drives Titanic. He designed his own submersible, like he’s actually a legit expert on this stuff. But, but he smartly like, waited until, you know, there was, it was. [00:39:39] Christina: Over to comment. Um, but he like pointed out all like the technical flaws they had, but they didn’t have like a black box at all. So, so one of my friends, not gonna name her, Alex Cranz, had like a really macabre thought, which was that the 19 year old [00:40:00] totally had his phone out the whole time. So like the best chance of the black box would be what is, you know, realistically probably his iPhone. [00:40:10] Christina: So she wanted me to text someone at Apple to find out like if the phone like could survive some sort of implosion and it’d be that far down. [00:40:19] Brett: psi. Sure. [00:40:20] Christina: I was, I was like, I don’t think so. I was like, I, but, but I was like, but, but I wanted to pose that question for, for, for, for the pod here. Like, do you think there’s anything left of that phone? [00:40:30] Christina: Do you think that like, if they got it, that they could like, recover anything? I’m just, just throwing it out there. Assuming that they actually, you know, had the ability, which we is completely unlikely to, you know, go through the, the wreckage and and whatnot. Do you think that if they were able to find anything with that phone that they’d be able to pull anything off of it? [00:40:50] Erin: Yes, and I don’t even think they’d have to find any physical artifact of the phone. Let’s say that they were able [00:41:00] to have their own internet connectivity on the Titan. Let’s say if it’s an iCloud, [00:41:07] Christina: Hmm. [00:41:08] Erin: because let’s say you captured a video or something at the beginning or at the end, or at any part. I mean, that’s probably an M O V file somewhere, right? [00:41:20] Brett: Yeah, I, I seriously doubt they had an internet connection at that point. [00:41:24] Christina: Yeah. I was gonna say that that’s the problem is that they wouldn’t have had any connectivity because, [00:41:28] Erin: Why [00:41:29] Brett: even have radio at that point [00:41:31] Christina: Yeah, they didn’t have, [00:41:32] Brett: local source. [00:41:33] Christina: the way they were communicating with, um, like the, the ship up top was through like text messages because that’s the only thing that could get through at like the low [00:41:45] Erin: SMS message, not sms. Right, [00:41:48] Christina: yeah. No, [00:41:50] Erin: but don’t you, you don’t need internet connectivity for that. [00:41:53] Christina: that’s a different, that, that, that’s, that’s wireless. That’s, that’s different. I mean like, yeah, yeah. Like, like you, you, you could, you could just have like the [00:42:00] ability to send SMS and not the ability to access like the broader internet. Um, [00:42:05] Erin: sos so sorry. [00:42:08] Christina: but No, but, but, but, but that, that was sort of an interesting question cuz I was like, huh, like I wonder if, you know, for sort of conditions Apple will test these things in. [00:42:19] Christina: That just made me think of that with the watch cuz they’re like, oh, you can go deep sea diving and whatnot, you know, with, with the watch and all this and that and, and it’s like, okay, well, Is anything on that phone? Because there’s even part of it. [00:42:34] Erin: Yeah. I mean that be, that becomes, um, that would be death pornography for which there is like this weird underground. [00:42:43] Brett: snuff porn. [00:42:44] Erin: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:45] Christina: Yes, it’s stuff, but yeah, it’s different. But it’s like, it’s like the, um, Timothy Treadwell tape that people like keep claiming that they found, but they haven’t. Okay. So he was the guy in Grizzly Man that the, the Werner Herzog documentary, which is great by the way, about this guy who like, was like [00:43:00] this normy kind of hippie guy who decided that he wanted to live in the woods with bears and like make programming about how like he could basically like be friends with the bears and live amongst them. [00:43:10] Christina: And so of course a bear killed him and his girlfriend, but he was a documentarian in of himself. And so the attack was like caught on video, like not the. Video, but like, on audio. And, and Werner heard it. And, and he even told like the, the guy’s like ex-girlfriend [00:43:28] Erin: listen to [00:43:29] Christina: partner. Yes. [00:43:30] Christina: He was like, [00:43:30] Erin: must never [00:43:31] Christina: Yes, yes. So for years this has been kind of like this like thing that people, like gross people, including myself, I’m not gonna lie that that was the first thing I googled when I saw a grizzly man in 2007. I’m not proud of it, but I am who I am. [00:43:48] Erin: does it exist. [00:43:50] Christina: No, no, [00:43:51] Erin: Right. Cuz he, she destroyed it. Right. [00:43:54] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:43:55] Christina: Or yes, she did. Or he did. And, and, uh, but, but people keep claiming and so you’ll find [00:44:00] like fake, like, you know, videos of, of people claiming to have the Timothy tread [00:44:05] Erin: it’s a rig roll. Ugh. [00:44:06] Christina: basically. Or, or something else. Yeah. [00:44:11] Erin: Yeah. [00:44:11] Christina: That documentary is really good. I kept, I actually, I was thinking of that documentary a lot this whole week. [00:44:15] Christina: I was like, Ooh. Cause I was like, And I know this is dark too, but I was like, okay, somebody’s gonna need to do like the, the mini series or the documentary or the whatever about this whole disaster and this whole thing. You know, like someone needs to do the, into thin air, um, of this. And, um, and I was trying to think, I was like, okay, who do we want directing this? [00:44:36] Christina: And, and we were like, do we want it to be like Michael Bay? You know, Paul Greengrass? Like I, I, I think Peter Berg did a really good job with, um, he’s, uh, with, with one of the, the disaster things. Um, James Cameron has too many avatars to make and, and frankly, better things to do, but I was like, Ooh, I kind of wanna a Werner Herzog like documentary, uh, about [00:45:00] like this whole thing. [00:45:02] Erin: And so we were just talking before the show. I, I just watched that, um, that film reality about reality winner and the whistleblower kind of [00:45:13] Christina: Mm-hmm. [00:45:14] Erin: 2017 thing. Um, so, so one thing that did. I was like, okay, so that’s like six years removed. We have some perspective on it. I don’t know where I was going with that, but where I’m going with this is that there will be, in six years when this mini series comes out, the perspective will have was that maybe billionaires are bad. [00:45:39] Erin: But I mean, that’s the perspective we have now. And it will be a class take in the same way that White Lotus is a class a commentary. In the same way that Triangle of Sadness is a, is a class commentary. There are so many like properties with like, you know, fuck, fuck billionaires and yes. Who can’t get behind that. [00:45:58] Erin: Um, [00:45:59] Christina: No, I, I [00:46:00] agree. Well, yeah. Well, I was gonna say that that was So, go on. Go on. [00:46:05] Erin: it’s just this story. I was fo I had the New York Times like live updates tab open all day. And I found, I found myself maybe like you, Christina, like really attracted, like fatally attracted, um, to the developments here because there are so many, um, there’s so many things tied up here. [00:46:26] Erin: There is class, there is, um, the, the guy who thinks he can be better than the certification of an entire industry. There’s hu Yeah, that’s exactly right. Um, there’s the innocent son, there’s the experienced French guy. Like there’s so much to work with. [00:46:47] Christina: there’s also the entire, like James Cameron kept pointing out when he finally started doing his media interviews, like the parallels between this and the Titanic, and then there’s the appeal of the lore of the Titanic, which obviously is why people pay the money to do these things to [00:47:00] begin with, which continues to endure a hundred and, you know, 10 years after it’s sinking and, and be one of those things that is just, I was fascinated by Titanic from the time I learned about it and, and, um, you know, as a little, little kid and, and that continues. You should read the book if you haven’t read it. Um, I, I’ve, it’s called Into Thin Air. It’s, uh, 1996 about the 1996 Everest disaster. It s preceded every single thing that we’ve seen both here and in kind of, um, extreme mountaineering where it didn’t get any better after his book. Um, and, and in a lot of these other things, because what happened, um, in 96 was this was at the kind of the beginning of the, the so-called kind of, um, like, um, uh, adventure tourism, um, market where rich people would basically pay Sherpa and, and other people to walk them up these, these great peaks and it would pay a lot of money to do it. [00:47:54] Christina: And, um, John Krakauer, who, um, is a journalist and an author, but also a very accomplished, [00:48:00] um, uh, climber himself was offered a spot on one of the, the two big commercial expedition teams. Um, To, to kind of do a profile of things for, for outside magazine and his whole thing. He was like, I’m not just gonna write about this and, and, and do it on base camp. [00:48:16] Christina: If I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna actually climb the mountain. And, and his, his book, which he wrote literally when he came back, and he, he didn’t, he made it up the mountain. He made it back down. He lived, but both of those, um, team leaders from, from those big exhibition teams died along with a, a number of, um, the, the participants and, and some other people were like basically left for dead. [00:48:39] Christina: And, and it, because there, uh, um, like a, basically a hurricane happened on top of Mount Everest and it was a massive avalanche. And it, there, there’s an IMAX film about it. It was, it was a, it was a. Big fucking deal. They tried to rescue the people. It was, it was an awful situation. And because he’s an incredible writer, like he wrote this very, very raw book. [00:48:58] Christina: Um, at first it [00:49:00] started out as an outside magazine piece, and I think they gave him the entire issue. And then he expanded that into a book. And it’s, it’s incredibly raw and, and incredibly, I think, um, uh, it’s very, very pointedly judgmental of the, um, entire like for-profit industry and the fact that people who don’t have the skills or the technique or like the ability are being carried at these mountains. [00:49:25] Christina: And, and he wrote that in 1996, came out at the end of 96, 27 years later, the whole Everest thing has only gotten bigger and worse. And, and, and the commercialization of that mountain has only [00:49:38] Erin: The John Oliver piece on that is so good. [00:49:41] Christina: Yeah, it is. And, and, and so, and then you see it in other areas. And like what’s interesting about the Titanic thing was that all of the science. [00:49:50] Christina: Scientific reasons to go down there have been exhausted. Like they, they took a 3D model, I think last, last year that they went down there. So they literally have like a perfect [00:50:00] like, um, you know, visualization of what everything is in the rec site. And so this was the only tourism outlet left. And then this was a pretty shoddy one. [00:50:09] Christina: They were charging a lot of money, but they weren’t profitable and, and they didn’t follow a lot of the other procedures, the lot of the other submersibles follow for, for tourism things. And then as, as James Cameron and other people were pointing out, like the location of where the wreck is is a really, really difficult location. [00:50:26] Christina: There’s a lot of debris. The weather’s really bad. Like it’s not where you wanna go on these things. And so there are like all these warning signs. But what I fear is that in six years when this mini series and these books and things come out is that you will have another or rich guy who will be convinced that he can go down and see two wrecks, [00:50:49] Erin: And it will be a guy, [00:50:50] Christina: Of course, of course. And, and, and that you will have like another wave of this, like unfortunately, I wish that this would lead to maybe less of these [00:51:00] things, but I think just like into thin air, uh, ironically maybe like led to a much greater like, cultural understanding of the fact that, oh, you mean I can just pay someone to walk me up these, these tall mountains, that more people are going to be aware that Oh yeah, you mean I can just pay someone to, to take me into the depths of the ocean? [00:51:19] Erin: Rich guys want to penetrate, rich guys want to penetrate outer space with their Bezos uh, dick rocket. [00:51:29] Brett: very foic rockets. [00:51:31] Christina: Yep. [00:51:32] Erin: and rich men want to penetrate the sea. Here’s a hash thought, shower thought. Okay. This is a sort of, sort of modern Icarus myth where instead of getting too close to the sun, your wings melting. [00:51:46] Erin: Ah, help me to the ground. We are getting a little too close the other direction and our things are imploding. I don’t know. I’m still working on it, but [00:51:59] Christina: No, I, I [00:52:00] I got where you’re going. No, but I think you, you bring up a great point, the parallels with, with space tourism. What’s interesting there, I think that, that the space tourism is weirdly, I think, a little safer just because the cost of entry is so much higher. Because we did so many, we invested so many billions, or probably close to trillions of dollars in the space race in 40 years, that the only people who can get into that space, like there’s a much higher barrier to entry. [00:52:25] Christina: Like the, the Stockton Rush, the third guy, like he, he was not a, he was rich, but he wasn’t like Bezos. Rich, right? And it was clear because this thing was controlled by like a Logitech game pad and, and was built in a shitty way, right? Like an actual money person who builts a submersible what James Cameron built for his, you know, he, he did not do that. [00:52:46] Christina: And so you had these rich people who just, I think to your point, like they think that they like it all and, and can just kind of in run the whole thing and it’s gonna be fine and don’t, aren’t doing due diligence makes it really [00:53:00] unsafe. Whereas bizarrely, as, as bad as I think, and I think we will have disasters in, in space tourism as we have with all space exploration. [00:53:09] Christina: I, I almost think that like the, the barrier to entry to like even get into that space is so high that like the, the good thing for now at least is that you don’t have as many like hucksters because you, you’d have to have so much money to even get something in the, in the air. You know what I mean? [00:53:29] Erin: Yeah. And the last thing I’ll say about this is the last, I don’t know, the 2010s had a lot of prestige television like this where you’re rooting for a complicated protagonist who is actually in this universe and very clear antagonist. Um, With these kinds of episodes, like, uh, what was the, the, like submarine getting lost in, in Thailand or whatever that was? [00:53:55] Erin: Um, no, that, that’s not actually what I’m talking about. I, this, this [00:54:00] kind of like, there’s something, they’re on the precipice of life and death and you can root for either one kind of fairly, is the same kind of anti I’m rooting for an anti-hero. Uh, what does that say about me? And rooting for the, just desserts of someone who has this much hubris is an, a similarly complicated emotional situation where it’s like, this is such an ugly feeling. [00:54:32] Erin: I like, fuck your video game controller. Who do you think you are? You get this, you deserve this. But it’s like, oh my God, it’s a human life. You monster. [00:54:43] Christina: bunch of human [00:54:44] Erin: So it’s like, I. [00:54:45] Christina: just because they’re rich assholes doesn’t mean they deserve to die. You know, like the, the ones I felt bad for was like the French like explorer and tour guide who probably should have known better, but, you know, wasn’t paid a lot. Um, and, and then, um, like, like the [00:54:58] Erin: by Bill Murray [00:54:59] Brett: Yeah. [00:54:59] Christina: [00:55:00] you know, like, yeah, totally. [00:55:01] Christina: Yeah, you’re right. Totally play, totally be played with Bill Murray and like the 19 year old who’s just going on a thing with his dad and is not thinking anything else. Right? Like, I don’t care about the billionaire, I don’t care about the, the Pakistani, um, businessman. I don’t care about the you, uh, founder, but like the. [00:55:20] Christina: The, the French Explorer and guide and who again, like, you know, was not paid well and, um, the, the, the teenager, I mean, I feel bad for everybody dying. Like we’d all, we’d all had hope, like [00:55:33] Brett: Right. So like, yeah, I’m, I’m more ambivalent towards the billionaire, the millionaires. Um, but like, it’s all human life. And if you were like, they knew the risks and they still brought the kid, they still endangered the life of the tour guide, uh, or whatever you want to the, [00:56:00] the diver. Um, and, and it sucks. [00:56:04] Brett: Like as much as I wanna be like, okay, so billionaires made of a mistake, whatever, it, it is what it is. It is there, there’s human life cost. And that that does, that does weigh on me. [00:56:18] Erin: You know what the worst par part of this is? Is they littered. That’s at the bottom of the, that’s on the earth. That’s metal that’s not supposed to be there. Sorry, [00:56:32] Brett: say the, I would say the same about most of our space exploration. [00:56:36] Christina: Oh [00:56:36] Erin: Oh God. Yet, [00:56:38] grAPPtitude [00:56:38] Brett: Our sky is littered. Um, we should, so Erin, I didn’t give you a heads up about gratitude. Have you listened to enough episodes to know what gratitude is? [00:56:50] Erin: I failed to do that. I’m [00:56:52] Christina: that’s [00:56:52] Brett: So, so you can sit this out. What we do is we pick an app [00:57:00] or a service, or it’s pretty flexible, um, that we’re really into right now. [00:57:08] Brett: Um, usually an indie thing [00:57:12] Christina: Doesn’t have to be, [00:57:12] Brett: uh, it doesn’t have to be, I think fucking last week Jeff picked Google Docs, so, [00:57:20] Erin: I have one. I have one. [00:57:21] Brett: it’s pretty wide open. All right, awesome. Um, Christina, are you prepared for [00:57:27] Christina: I am not, so if you guys wanna go first, I will. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m trying to figure out what I wanna [00:57:34] Brett: All right, well, I will kick it off. I’m picking Launch Bar this week. I can’t remember if I’ve talked about Launch Bar before. Um, it’s [00:57:42] Christina: it again, cuz it’s great. [00:57:43] Brett: it’s a controversial pick because there are so many great launchers, but when I think about what do I use most every day, it’s like text expander and launch bar, and it’s how I get to [00:58:00] everything. [00:58:00] Brett: Um, so it’s a pretty simple pick. And if we’ve covered it before and I’m just forgetting, then we don’t have to go into depth on it. Uh, [00:58:10] Christina: I mean, I think we have, but, but I, but we have, I think, but, but I, it’s worth talking about again because as you mentioned, there are like a ton of them there. There’s Ray Cast, there’s Alfred, obviously Spotlight, there’s some other things. And it’s been interesting. There’s been sort of a resurgence in the last couple of years. [00:58:27] Brett: and Spotlight has picked up, spotlight has picked up so much functionality from its early days. From its from, its um, what was the, what, what did they Sherlock to make Spotlight. What was that called? No, no. There was something on like OS nine. [00:58:49] Christina: Oh, Sherlock. [00:58:51] Brett: I mean, was it Sher? Oh yeah, that’s right. That’s where the term Sherlock [00:58:55] Christina: That’s literally where the term Sherlock [00:58:57] Brett: they, Sherlock. [00:58:58] Brett: Sherlock. [00:58:58] Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:59:00] yeah, [00:59:01] Brett: Right. Watson, Sherlock. Yeah. Um, yeah. But Spotlight has come a long way, and like it has awesome, like serious suggestions, preview capabilities, all of that. But I still, I still default to Launch Bar and I was a quick, I was a Quicksilver guy, uh, when Launch Bar came out and I made the transition because Quicksilver didn’t seem like it had, um, active development going on at that point. [00:59:34] Brett: And it kinda, it, they, they released a new version. What was it like last year [00:59:42] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, they finally released a new, a new version of a, of Quicksilver. And then, um, but what I was gonna say about, um, a launch bar is that I’ve actually found, like there’s, um, um, a, a guy, um, who I think were mutuals on, on either Blue [01:00:00] Sky or on, um, Macedon, who has like a, a whole GitHub repo of all of his, um, launch bar actions and, um, So, which, which are really good. [01:00:15] Christina: So he’s got things like, um, doing the Jira search, uh, doing action updates, you know, doing things like from from caffeinate, expanding URLs, sharing files, sharing safari links, switching audio, all kinds of stuff. Um, so I’ll, uh, I’ll, I’ll put his, his links, um, in, in the show notes for people who wanna add things cuz my only critique of Launch Bar has been because I like Launch Bar a lot, but my only critique has been that, um, And then there’s another guy, uh, this is a different one. [01:00:48] Christina: Christian Bender was the one I was thinking of. Uh, so the other guy, uh, has, has contributed to his, um, thing, but, but Christian Bender’s who I was actually thinking of, and uh, he also has a website, um, and, uh, [01:01:00] and he’s got like tons and tons and tons of, of, um, launch bar stuff. But my only critique of Launch Bar over the years, cause I’ve always liked it, has been that the community has not been quite as robust as, as like Alfred or, or now Raycast. [01:01:14] Christina: And, and that’s, that’s, that’s made me sad because I think it’s in many ways a superior designed app. [01:01:20] Brett: Yeah. The Alfred community has been outstanding, like the, the number of plugins and extensions people have developed. Um, like people make launch bar extensions, but they don’t have the general, like, they don’t collect the community the way that Alfred does anyway. [01:01:41] Christina: Yeah. All right. I’ve got one, but, but Aaron, if you have a thing you would like to share, um, uh, guest first, please. [01:01:48] Erin: Sure thing. And this can be really quick because I just found out about this app before leaving for my show the other night. Um, and, and so maybe I have too. So [01:02:00] I have keyboard maestro, 15 years late, finally jumping on keyboard maestro. Um, love it so much already. Uh, but the app that came to mind was, again, I have not played with it really, but I’m glad it exists. [01:02:16] Erin: Service station. [01:02:18] Brett: What? [01:02:19] Erin: about this? Yeah. So the, the idea is that, um, you, with Service Station, you get to customize your right click menu based on the type of file you’re clicking. Kind of like a pc. Like a pc when Windows, it’s a little smarter about what kind of files you, you’re working with. So I work, for example, with Logic a lot, and so I can now right click a file and be like, yes, open with Logic, put that at the top of the list. [01:02:50] Erin: Um, and you could do a lot with it. That’s, that’s kind of my draw to it. Again, I haven’t played with it, but I’m really happy it exists. It looks to be [01:03:00] pretty legit. Um, so yeah. Service [01:03:03] Brett: I just, it’s on the Mac app store. I just found this. That is, that is nice. Yes. My, my right click menu is a mess. I might check this out. [01:03:14] Christina: I was gonna say, my right click menu is definitely a mess, so I like this a lot. Um, very cool. Okay. My pick is IA presenter, um, which is very similar to another. So it’s basically a markdown kind of based, um, presentation app from the people who made IA writer. And, um, so if you go to ia.net, it’s, it’s a, it’s a paid app. [01:03:37] Christina: It’s a kind of a subscription right now, actually. You can do it two ways. You can buy it like a one-time thing just for Mac, um, or you can get a subscription, which is a little bit cheaper over time, and they’re, they’re promising and iOS app and, um, but, but it’s Mac only right now and it’s basically, it’s very similar to, um, what was the, um, uh, what was it called, uh, deskmate. [01:03:58] Christina: What was the, the [01:04:00] Markdown, um, presentation app that we used to use Brett. [01:04:03] Brett: oh. Oh. Um, something deck. Um, [01:04:07] Christina: Um, um, DEC Mate, DECA Dset. Dset, [01:04:11] Brett: deck set. That’s it. [01:04:13] Christina: okay. It’s similar to Dset, but I do think that it [01:04:15] Brett: And what’s it called again? [01:04:16] Christina: called IA Presenter, and it’s from the same people who do IA writer. So, um, it is, uh, it’s at ia.net. Um, it’s, it they’ve got like a monthly or, or, or a yearly kind of, uh, subscription. You can also do a one-time purchase. [01:04:33] Christina: Um, but, but like I said, the subscription, um, is going to also include a a, an iOS app, which they promise is, is coming. Um, you can try it out first. I, um, I think I, I’m doing the subscription right now, I believe, but it’s, um, it’s really, really good. It’s basically like a way to. You know, do presentations, um, really beautiful, like looking, you know, kind of text inter um, presentations using [01:05:00] markdown and, um, other tools. [01:05:02] Christina: They’ve got a theming engine and, um, it’s, uh, it’s really, really nice. So that, that’s, that, that’s what I’ve been, uh, doing. I, I’m looking forward to giving a talk using this. I usually have to, um, well it actually varies. Sometimes I have to like, give a, give presentations using a certain theme. But now that, um, the fonts that we use at GitHub are actually open source, like we open sourced our, our branding fonts, um, it makes it easier for me in terms of like packaging stuff that I would wanna do. [01:05:34] Christina: Cuz I could just put the cut the, the, the font file there and I wouldn’t have to like remember like the what Dropbox or, or Google Drive thing it’s on. Like if, if I don’t have it downloaded on a machine, I can just, you know, go to a website and download it. So I think this’ll make it, um, easier for me to recreate some of the, um, I guess, I guess stylistic things that I need to do at, at work using this style so I can, you know, kind of have like a, a set, uh, way of doing [01:06:00] things, um, that still are like brand appropriate, but are easier for my own, um, working, uh, process. [01:06:07] Christina: Uh, but I really like their, their speakers view, which is like more like a teleprompter, and that has like, gives you, you know, like clear like dialogue, um, cues and, and and whatnot, which I really like. So, um, I, yeah, I’ve been playing with this, uh, for a couple weeks now and, um, it’s, it’s fairly new and I, I like it a lot. [01:06:32] Christina: So, uh, I, [01:06:33] Brett: really good. [01:06:34] Christina: so IA presenter, they’ve got a free trial. Um, IA writer was as an athlete. I’ve, I’ve, I haven’t used it in a long time, but I, I have bought it, um, over the years and I’ve really, really liked it. And, and so, um, I very much appreciate their attention to, to detail for design stuff. So Dset is still great. [01:06:52] Christina: Um, it hasn’t been updated in a long time. Um, [01:06:56] Brett: I mean, they put out, [01:07:00] um, bug fixes, but yeah, it’s not, it’s not advancing in any significant [01:07:06] Christina: right. So, so for me, like if I were to invest like net new in one, like I’d probably start here, but [01:07:12] Brett: Yeah, this looks really good. And you can use, I, i writer has this, uh, block, you can include things like images and CSV files or whatever, just by starting a line with a slash and then following it with a path to the asset. Um, [01:07:32] Christina: the exact same way. [01:07:33] Brett: Yep. Yep. And that’s cool that I actually incorporated that into marked, um, like you can include other markdown files or images and if you include like a C S V, it injects it as a markdown table. [01:07:48] Brett: And if you include source code, it injects it as highlighted, uh, like syntax. I code, like I got that from IA writer. They’ve had some, some good innovations. I appreciate that.[01:08:00] [01:08:01] Christina: Yeah, [01:08:03] Brett: All right, well we’re at like a, an hour 10. I think that’s an episode. [01:08:09] Christina: a great episode. [01:08:12] Brett: Good job people. [01:08:13] Christina: Good job. Everybody can get some sleep. Uh, Aaron can, um, continue to soothe her hangover. Brett can hopefully get some sleep because he, he was, he was, uh, up all night and, um, I can hopefully, uh, maybe be productive today, which would be great. [01:08:29] Brett: Awesome. Thanks for being here, Aaron. [01:08:32] Christina: Thank you, [01:08:33] Erin: Happy pride. Thanks for [01:08:34] Christina: pride everyone. [01:08:36] Brett: Happy pride. Get some sleep. [01:08:40] Erin: I.