Overtired

The gang’s all here to mourn the death of long-time friend of the show, Yeti. Plus, plumbing adventures, musical diversions, VisionPro, Mac Gaming, and some great GrAPPtitude picks. Promo Swap Kewl.fm is a music station that blends your favorite genres in one place. Their lively DJs are true entertainers, who are there to share stories, add personality and ensure your listening experience is nothing short of spectacular. Check them out at kewl.fm. Show Links Yeti Tribute Butthole Surfers at Lollapalooza 1991 David Usher David Usher.- Fast Car Tracy Chapman at Wembley I Used Apple’s Vision Pro and It’s Absolutely Mind-Blowingly Impressive – Raymond Wong Apple’s Secret Weapon to Getting PC Games on Mac github.com/apple/homebrew-apple AI QR Codes Paprika TypingMind and on SetApp and free/official ChatGPT iOS app by OpenAI Google Docs Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.

Christina is off to see Taylor Swift, so Brett and Jeff hold down the fort. Hiking for mental health, Markdown, file management and your weekly Grapptitude. Sponsor Factor gives you fresh, never frozen meals, ready to eat in two minutes. Save 50% on your first box with code overtired50 at factormeals.com/overtired50. Show Links Sugarloaf Oracle DevRel Markdown style guide Bookmark CLI Grapptitude Kaleidoscope Bunch Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript I Am Not a Linter!! [00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired. [00:00:04] Jeff: Hello everybody, this is Overtired. I am your host, Jeff Severns gunzel. I’m one of your hosts. Uh, our. Second of three hosts, Christina Warren is in New York, seeing Taylor Swift, which is, I don’t know if there’s a, if there’s a more perfect term than on brand, but if there is, then let’s just, uh, let’s just imagine that I’m saying that word. [00:00:26] Um, and then it, it’s Brett Terpstra, the two of us. Wait, so I, [00:00:29] Brett: I’m the third of three hosts, even though Christina is gone, I’m still in third place. I [00:00:33] Jeff: just, I, you know, I got excited about saying the Taylor Swift thing just to, you know, it’s, it’s not nothing to do with, uh, preference or actual rank or [00:00:43] Brett: hierarchy. [00:00:44] Since you came aboard, there has been significantly less Taylor Swift talk overall, um, which I personally don’t mind. Like it still comes up. Yeah. But, uh, but there have been episodes of this [00:01:00] podcast that have been all about Taylor Swift. Right, right. Longtime listeners will know that there’s a reason that our tagline was Taylor Swift podcast. [00:01:10] Jeff: Yeah. Completely. Yeah, it’d be good. Uh, it’d be a good bit if we just dedicated one of these where it’s you and me to Taylor Swift and we didn’t say anything. We’d have to really work. I think we’d have to do some prep work, but I think we could pull it off [00:01:23] Brett: to, to not say anything about Taylor Swift. No. [00:01:25] Jeff: To only talk about Taylor. [00:01:26] Taylor Swift. Oh. Only talk about Taylor Swift. Only talk about Taylor Swift. Why can’t I say her name? Taylor. [00:01:33] Brett: Shania. Shania. [00:01:35] Jeff: Yes. I was Shania eating it all together. I know they’re very different. So here we are. Here [00:01:40] Brett: we are. Brett. [00:01:41] Mental Health Corner [00:01:41] Brett: Um, how’s your mental health, Jeff? [00:01:44] Jeff: You know, I can talk about something that was just lovely for my overall professional mental health this last week. Um, we’re starting a new project. Uh, it’s a research and evaluation co-op that I’m part of. Um, we’re [00:02:00] starting a new project with a new client and, um, it’s basically many months of designing an evaluation and then hoping maybe we get the contract to do the evaluation. So we’ll see. Okay. Um, it’s, it’s an unusual contract for us anyway. It’s one that is with a, a client that is, um, sort of in the league that we have not previously, um, engaged with. [00:02:22] Uh, and so, um, they do everything in a much more sort of orderly, professional way than most of our clients. Like, we have to use Microsoft Teams, which otherwise I’ve never had to use. Sure. Um, and there are all these other things, like when you submit a budget, there’s a template for it, which is not something we usually have to deal with. [00:02:39] There’s just, there are protocols because this is such a large organization that, um, are unlike anything we’ve dealt with in the past and we’re super adaptable. But like, it’s, it’s very new. So, so we decided we were gonna hire a. A project manager. Um, because in the past how we’ve worked, were like little rogue evaluation groups, you know, two to five of us, [00:03:00] and we just kind of like make do with our combined skills. [00:03:04] But we realized that, um, this might be one where our combined skills and our combined personalities don’t necessarily, um, like meet the bar. And so we’re like, and I’ve always wanted to work with a project manager. I think that’s just like a fantastic idea if it’s the right person. Right. Project managers are like copy factorors sometimes. [00:03:23] They’re so obsessed with their own sort of toolbox that there’s absolute rigidity and no fluidity or flexibility. Like with copy factorors, I’ve, I’ve had experiences. Most of my experiences have been fantastic cause I love to be factored. In any way possible. I just love people saying, no, do it this way, and then giving it a shot. [00:03:43] Right. But if it can’t be like a conversation Yeah. Then it’s really tough. But anyway, um, you know, I’ve had copy factorors who for instance, forget that there is a such thing as voice, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, we can do it all by the book, but then we lose the voice, whether it’s mine or whoever we’re factoring. [00:03:59] [00:04:00] And with project managers, I’ve had the experience where it’s like, okay, guy come in with this tool and you all have to learn this tool. And like, that’s the death of almost all project managers, right? Is when you try to force a tool. I would love to force a whole suite of tools with the teams I work with. [00:04:14] Brett: The, the death is when you force a tool and then change your mind. Yeah, that’s true too. And you’re like, actually now we’re gonna use Asana for everything. [00:04:22] Jeff: Exactly. Asana. Yeah. I’ve been, I’ve been down that road. Not, not, uh, voluntarily, but, um, so anyway, it, we put out, we had to hire this person in like a week, so we had to like, You know, get all the applications, do the interviews. [00:04:35] We did 11 interviews Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And um, what was so awesome about it was I have been working with a very, like limited group of people on a project for like six years. And so it’s always been the same faces, the same work styles. It’s been fantastic, but it’s been a long time and I’ve been excited at the prospect of working with [00:05:00] other people in our co-op and just having a different experience overall. [00:05:04] So we put this out there and because we’re like a social justice base, like systems change, uh, organization, a lot of people that come to us or that we reach out to, to work with us. Get excited because the thing they’re doing doesn’t always mean that they get attached to like social justice type work or change making work. [00:05:25] And um, and so that makes for a really cool relationship cuz it’s people, you’ve, this happened with you right? I remember you saying this, like, you were like, Hey, I’m happy to apply my skills to something about like juvenile justice and like helping kids or whatever. Like, um, so, so we got people like that and, and we just, what was amazing is like almost everybody, even the people that were totally wrong for the job, they were all like, inspiring to me. [00:05:48] They all said something that I was like, oh my God, I’ve never thought about that that way. Um, and, and so it was just, it was lovely to see that there are people out in the world that think differently. There are that think like me, [00:06:00] um, who I, I wouldn’t have otherwise been able to. Connect with. And it made me really hopeful. [00:06:05] Like there were people that aren’t gonna get this job, that were already going to be reaching out to about other work, you know? Um, and so it just felt good. It just felt good to expand and remember, like it’s not just me in my tiny office. Um, and, and I’ve been like that since way before the pandemic. Um, It was cool. [00:06:22] I don’t wanna work in offices with any of these people, but I’m like really excited, um, to, to be kind of learning about, like a way of thinking about work. Um, and I think it’ll solve, they’re just natural conflicts that that come up when you don’t have a project manager. Like somebody will naturally sort of acquire or almost take a little more power than others. [00:06:44] Um, some people who maybe think or talk differently or react differently, um, maybe they take more time to sort of gather their thoughts, end up being, um, you know, sorted below the people that are really quick. Um, and so for me, having a project [00:07:00] manager. Is exciting because I think it can really, like, it can, it can help us to kind of live out our, like our equity goals, which we do a pretty good job of in our organization overall. [00:07:10] Um, we are just kind of a, we’re a diverse organization, not in a forced way at all. Um, but because we’ve just managed to kind of find our people. Um, and so anyway, that just felt good. It felt good. I got excited about work and I’ve been pretty, I’ve been pretty kind of like rote about work for a while. Um, so that just, that feels good. [00:07:31] Um, it was still hard to do all those interviews and get all my other deadlines met, so it caused a little stress too. But that was nice and I’m really excited to working with. I’m really excited to be working with new people. Um, so new spirits [00:07:44] Brett: nice. Now I’m worried that I might be one of those overly rigid copy factorors. [00:07:50] Jeff: Oh, you think so? No, no, no. Copy factoring requires rigidity. I, you, it, you have to be a bit of a fascist. Like there’s no way around that. Like, I want to be [00:08:00] clear, like it’s a little tiny trip wire that you can hit, you know, and you have such a natural sense of voice anyhow. Yeah. That, um, and it’s, but why do you, why do you think that? [00:08:11] Why do you think maybe you, well, [00:08:13] Brett: so in my current job, uh, for a while there I was basically copy factoring and, um, we were using markdown. Via a GitHub workflow for the factoring. And I was very strict about like my, my like markdown syntax and, and using GitHub properly. And like, I’m good with like, I understand voice, like it’s, it’s if something was written, even if it’s not a voice that I think is like perfect. [00:08:52] I, I understand like this author has a voice and, and I can work with it. So I’m mostly, mostly focused on [00:09:00] grammatical and spelling stuff when it came to the actual copy. Yeah. But as far as the tools wedge, I was, I was a bit, a bit strict. [00:09:08] Jeff: But don’t you think that you’re in a context, you’re in a sort of programmer, you know, power user context, aren’t you? [00:09:15] So it feels like you can, you should be able to get away with being strict about that. [00:09:19] Brett: I would think so. Because I, I’ll tell you what I got. I got very frustrated. [00:09:24] Jeff: Did you? I did. What was the thing that was most frustrating? [00:09:28] Brett: Um, just when basic markdown syntax couldn’t be adhered to. Um, I mean like very synt things that, that didn’t work. [00:09:39] Like they were just wrong. And, and I repeatedly would fix them and, and add comments saying, please take care of this in the future. And like I have some niggles like, um, like white space in markdown documents. Like always putting a line break [00:10:00] before a list element? Yes. Or a line break after a headline and things that just make readability of the markdown itself easier. [00:10:07] Even though super important, you can get away with it in a lot of cases. You can get away with not doing it. Like I set up a style guide and I was like, here are the rules. And repeatedly the rules weren’t followed. And then I wrote some custom plugins and created my own syntax for a few things. And, and people never, um, assimilated the information to make them work properly. [00:10:35] So I spent a lot of time correcting liquid, liquid syntax, and it, it, I’m glad I’m past that part of my job. Do [00:10:45] Jeff: you ever just, did you ever scream in a meeting? I am not. No. No. Listen. Not. Did you ever scream in a meeting? Did you ever scream in a meeting? I am not a linter. Uh, I [00:10:54] Brett: did not. Episode title. I did not. I, I would complain to Elle on our nightly [00:11:00] walks. I would tell her how annoyed I was with, you know, an individual or my team in general. [00:11:07] Um, but I always maintained a very diplomatic, uh, persona. In those, yeah. In those proceedings. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m, I think I would, like, I applied for a managerial position a little while ago, and I don’t have a lot on my resume, um, that is actual management positions. Yeah. But I have fallen into that role enough times that I feel like I could do the job. [00:11:41] Yeah. Uh, whether or not I actually want to is another question, but I feel like I make a good, I’m, I’m good at dealing with people, uh, and ordering people around without ordering people around. You know what I mean? Right. Right. [00:11:57] Jeff: Yeah. Man, I, I, [00:12:00] um, I don’t do a lot of factoring now, but I, I generally am. I generally consider myself a good factoror, not copy factoror. [00:12:07] Um, I really love working with people’s, uh, text. Sure. I love trying to sort of, I love making changes that they like. Sure. I don’t mind it if they don’t like it, but I, I would like to, what I, what I want to be when I’m factoring is someone who like, um, is sensitive enough to the voice that I can take it on for a minute. [00:12:29] Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, not steal it, just take it on for a minute. I remember we used to, in the punk planet magazine days, um, our approach to interviews was we would take the full transcript, And, and I know there are people who are listening who are gonna like slam their fists on the table and you probably work in a newsroom and that’s why I don’t work in newsrooms anymore. [00:12:53] Um, but we would take the entire, um, q and a and we would rewrite our questions if we needed to, cuz [00:13:00] the, the, the absolute priority was readability and what we would hear over and over. I remember this happened with a Micons interview that Dan, our, um, the, the founder of Punk Planet had done. [00:13:11] John Langford was like, I’ve never sounded that articulate or like I, and I actually learned something. I, I interviewed Ian Mackay of Fugazi Sure. Who always seems to give a great interview, right? Like he’s, I don’t know if you used to read interviews with him, but like, if you’re in punk rock, like if you have a punk rock history, you’ve read some Ian Mackay interviews. [00:13:30] Yeah. And you’ve appreciated the kind of nuggets. Well, I, I’m sorry, Ian, I’m sorry. I love you so much, but you were a fucking mess. And there was a point at which he was telling me about a a a a. Game they play on tour where like you look at like, uh, uh, Ford Explorer or something like that, and you just add, um, anal before it’s like anal explorer. [00:13:53] And he went on about this for quite a while. This was an interview about, about digital music streaming and whether or [00:14:00] not discord would ever play ball with iTunes. That’s how long ago it was. Right. And I remember just being like, this is not how I imagined this would go. And so when I factored it, sure enough, like the quotes I pulled out were amazing. [00:14:12] Like, and they were un, they were unfactored. Like when he gets to his point, it’s fantastic. I don’t mean to pick on Ian Mackay. I just feel like for all the years he spent yelling at people from the stage, I can, I can like speak to him directly from, from my stage. Yeah. And I love you and you changed my life and all of that stuff. [00:14:29] But anyway, like that’s how we used to do interviews and like, I, I brought that to factoring in other contexts where it’s like where you actually are a little more allowed to do that, right? Like if it’s someone’s writing, you can kind of move things around. I loved that. I loved it. Yeah. But, um, yeah, [00:14:44] Brett: I, that’s all so, like Systematic, most of the interviews I’ve done in my life were for my old podcast Systematic, and there were plenty of interviews over a few hundred episodes that definitely I [00:15:00] would’ve liked to have. [00:15:02] The, the kind of liberties you can take in text. Yeah, you don’t necessarily have, uh, well, you can if you have the time in audio, but it pretty much, like, I could cut things out, but to like rearrange and like fill in quotes, you know how like in copy factoring you can write what someone said in quotes and then add, you know, in brackets or in between, you can kind of fill in and you can add sick. [00:15:33] Um, right. [00:15:34] Jeff: Yeah, thanks. That’s usually when I’m feeling like an asshole [00:15:40] Brett: or, or a note, an factoror’s note. And, uh, you don’t get that, you don’t have a lot of those liberties in, uh, an audio interview, which, uh, there were definitely cases where I would’ve appreciated that. But [00:15:55] Jeff: anyway, yeah. I love, I actually love, um, factoring audio. [00:15:58] It is so incredibly time [00:16:00] consuming. It’s so fascinating to essentially factor text that you can’t see. Yeah, and it’s also amazing. Um, when I was working in radio, this, this happened a lot when I was producing like three minute stories. It’s like you start to be able to kind of read the wave form, right? [00:16:12] Yeah. Like, it’s not like you, you know the words, but you can kind of, well, you could, some words you can start to recognize like, like, and, um, you know, everyone has their, their tick. But yeah, I find that kind of fascinating. Anyway, how about you? How about you? Let’s, uh, [00:16:24] Brett: that’s all. Um, yeah. Uh, things are going really well on, uh, on my current med regime. [00:16:33] Um, I. Had, we’ve talked about, I believe, uh, some of the problems I had with getting my Vivance and yeah. Um, I had gotten through most of the hoops through which I had to jump, uh, now that my psychiatrist has moved to a private practice, um, but they had a urine drug panel [00:17:00] requirement and, um, I didn’t know exactly what they were testing for, but I’m, I’m 90% drug free, um, except for some that I actually use for mental health. [00:17:12] Right, right. Um, which I’m not at liberty to talk about, but, um, apparently I’ll just say psilocybin doesn’t show up on a 10, 10 panel urine test. Interesting. Uh, so that wasn’t a concern for me and everything else was, Gonna be fine, but it took them like two weeks to get the results to my doctor. Um, so I had this, she went ahead and gave me like two weeks at a time until we had this figured out. [00:17:44] Uh, but now everything is clear. I am, I’m good to go. Uh, future vivance refills should not be nearly as much hassle as I went through to get set up with this new one. Um, so that’s good. [00:18:00] One thing that I have found has been really good for me lately is hiking. Um, we have, so we have this, uh, landmark in our town called Sugarloaf. [00:18:12] It’s a, a sandstone. Butte on top [00:18:16] Jeff: of, is there, are there any bluegrass songs on [00:18:20] Brett: Mountain? Oh, I’m sure. We host the Bluegrass Festival. I’m sure it’s been done. Um, but, uh, um, we, there’s a newish trail that goes up to Sugar Oak and it takes about 30 minutes, um, mostly uphill to hike up the bluff up to Sugarloaf. [00:18:41] Um, and then, uh, yeah, you can like touch the rock and then head back down. So it’s, it’s about an hour round trip and I’ve been trying to do that once a week and it has been, Really good for me. I’m building up cardio, uh, [00:19:00] endurance and it’s helping my mental health and we’re still going for walks in the refuge. [00:19:05] So last week we did Sugarloaf on Sunday and then did the Wisconsin wetlands on Monday, and we saw, uh, a hundred Goslings. It was like, They were probably two weeks old, most of them. Um, so like the trails were just covered with like lines. Like you’d have like the mom in the front and the dad in the back and like six to eight goslings between them. [00:19:34] That’s amazing. And they would like cross the trail and hop in the water and like slowly escape from the invading humans. Um, and we saw swans and it was the, uh, first dragonfly hatch. Oh, nice. So were, yeah, like as you walk down the trail, like just dragonflies popping out of the trail TV outta your way. [00:19:53] And, um, I’m looking forward to the damsel fly hatch. I hope we catch that cause. Ooh, [00:20:00] like the sides of the trails turned blue with all of these dams supplies. Oh my God. Wow. And it’s, yeah, it’s really fun. I have a great time. Uh, so that was a very rewarding, uh, morning in the wetlands and it stuck with me all week and. [00:20:17] It is an experience like that, just getting out and seeing nature. Like even aside from the mental health benefits of exercise, which are, you know, strong and well proven. Uh, but just seeing like natural phenomenon really sticks with me and gives me like a lot of, um, pleasure through, through the whole week afterward. [00:20:43] Uh, so that’s been really good for me. [00:20:45] Jeff: That’s great. And I would say that 95% of our listeners probably have no idea how stunningly beautiful the part of Minnesota you are in is. Yeah, [00:20:56] Brett: it’s stunning. It’s, if you think of Minnesota and you think, [00:21:00] uh, Iowa landscape, you haven’t been to southeast Minnesota, which is just all bluffs and valleys and, and green and so, and rivers and lakes and it’s fantastic. [00:21:15] Yeah. [00:21:15] Jeff: It’s truly incredible. Um, I really should just come down to visit you. Yeah. I, I don’t know why I haven’t done that yet. [00:21:22] Brett: You should. There we, I just found out about a new nine mile trail, uh, that I’m looking forward to checking out, but Nice. So many good. We like the whole singer Trail system is nine miles of bluff trails a lot. [00:21:39] Uh, open to mountain biking, uh, but all open to hiking and it’s, it’s fantastic. I’ll show you around. These mountain [00:21:47] Jeff: bikers are just insane. I don’t understand how they aren’t all dead. I like, I wanna know the mortality rate of, of mountain bikers that used those crazy trails. [00:21:57] Brett: Back in high school. I raced mountain bikes. [00:21:59] [00:22:00] Did you? And yeah. And, and I would race all through Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota. Dang. And honestly, it was always great to come home because our trail systems are, we have, uh, Long, long uphill climbs with crazy downhill runs. And then most of the larger loops have something called suicide trails. Sounds good. [00:22:27] That’s great. Which like when you get to the peak, instead of taking the rounding, uh, like kind of path down to the bottom, you can go straight down the hill, like straight down. And it is, it is suicidal. And [00:22:41] Jeff: is there, is there some kind of emergency mental health provider at the top of the hill before you go down? [00:22:47] Negative And just a quick, just a quick evaluation before you get [00:22:51] Brett: down there. And they’re often in deep enough that you would have to get a helicopter if you had a serious injury. You’d have to be like airlifted out. [00:23:00] Yeah, it is. It’s very dangerous. Yeah. Um, but you know, at your own risk, I guess. [00:23:07] Jeff: Yeah. [00:23:08] You’re immortal at that point. Um, definitely not at this point. [00:23:14] Brett: Yeah. No. We got our bikes fixed up. Uh, just spent $150 repairing bikes that had sat in storage for too long. Wow. So just yesterday, Elle and I started g getting out for bike rides and uh, it’s, you can go eight miles is too far for me to walk. [00:23:35] I’m not gonna do an eight mile hike. Yeah. Know Me neither. But an eight mile bike ride, that’s a [00:23:39] Jeff: different story. That’s a nice, that’s a nice ride. Yeah. That’s awesome. Um, I, I think we should do a sponsor, but before we do that, um, I wanted to just let everybody know that we are going to a sort of reduced schedule for the summer. [00:23:56] We’re gonna be going every other week, starting today, starting with this [00:24:00] episode, and then in August we’ll be launching season four Yep. Of the Overtired podcast. Maybe we’ll even have a new tagline. [00:24:08] Brett: Yeah, who knows, maybe who, maybe something not Taylor [00:24:11] Jeff: Swift related or maybe we’ll all have Taylor Swift tattoos and, and it’ll feel like Yeah. [00:24:15] You know, let’s just continue to, to, to merge with her. We’ll, we’ll have some [00:24:18] Brett: meetings. We’ll confer. [00:24:19] Sponsor: Factor [00:24:19] Jeff: Yeah, some meetings and confer. Uh, so what do you think? Good time for a sponsor. Yeah. All [00:24:24] Brett: right. Do, so I actually, last time we did this sponsor, you weren’t here and you were the one person that I thought would most appreciate this sponsor based on your feedback from the free samples they sent. [00:24:39] So do you want to do this read? [00:24:41] Jeff: Yes. I wish I still had the, I had saved the boxes of the ones I love the most, but I think I can speak to the quality of them. Um, alright, so our, our sponsor this week is factor, uh, this spring. You need nutritious, convenient, me, not just this spring. You always need nutritious, convenient meals to energize you for warmer active days and keep you [00:25:00] on track reaching your goals. [00:25:03] I find that trying to reach my goals usually means I’m not eating enough, but that’s not, that’s not the read. Uh, so Factor America’s number one, ready to eat meal kit can help you fuel up fast with ready to eat meals delivered straight to your door. You’ll save time, eat well, and tackle everything on your to-do list. [00:25:21] It’s like the productivity, uh, like spin. Isn’t it too busy to cook this spring with factor? Skip the trip to the grocery store and skip the chopping. Prepping and cleaning up too. Factors fresh. Never frozen. Meals are ready in just two minutes, so all you have to do is heat and enjoy. Then get back outside and soak up the warmer weather they offer delicious flavor packed options on the menu each week to fit a variety of lifestyles from keto, keto or keto, keto, keto, not keto. Like the, the, um, great witness in the, in the [00:25:57] Brett: keto [00:26:00] ketosis, [00:26:00] Jeff: in ketosis. High factor. 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With [00:27:00] Factor, you can rest assured you are making a sustainable choice. They offset 100% of your delivery emissions to your door Source 100% renewable electricity for their production sites and offices and feature sustainably sourced seafood in their meals. [00:27:15] Head to Factor [00:27:16] Marker [00:27:16] Jeff: meals.com/ Overtired 50 and use code Overtired 50 to get 50% off your first box. That’s code Overtired 50. And that’s the number 50, not spelled out@factormeals.com slash Overtired 50 to get 50% off your first box. And, and I’ll just say we got a free box and um, I was truly surprised. Like it w first of all, it was way less packaging than some of the other options I’ve noticed. [00:27:44] Um, but like it tasted fresh and it was flavorful and it had more than just two sort of layers of flavor. Like microwave things often can, yeah, [00:27:55] Brett: yeah. I’ve sub, I’ve subscribed to meal plans cuz like the convenience of [00:28:00] microwave meals can’t be beat. Um, like I appreciate meal kits that let me do some cooking, but that takes half an hour. [00:28:08] Right. And. And part of the convenience of a meal plan is not having to spend so much time on food. So these microwave meals are great, but this is the first time I’ve ever had microwave meals that actually impressed me and didn’t feel like a major compromise. Um, yeah. Yeah. They were, they’re [00:28:27] Jeff: delicious. [00:28:28] And, and like also, it’s pretty rare that you can satisfy all four members of our family and, and Sure. This did and, and, um, yeah, and, and also like, I mean this is, let’s, this is kind of separate from the read here, but just to say like, my spouse and I have often joked and it’s not a joke fucking dinner again. [00:28:46] Like, seriously, this happens every day. Um, so it’s always something easy is always welcome. Anyway, um, so yeah, that’s that, that’s that. Get your box, get your box of food, [00:29:00] 50% off free, [00:29:01] Brett: separate food. Separate from the read. I want to say. I don’t know what factors, um, Employee treatment policy is they’re now owned by HelloFresh, which has done too much union busting for me to accept them as a sponsor. [00:29:21] Um, and I don’t know if Factor is completely separate from that as far as their employee treatment goes. So if it comes to light, that factor is union busting, we will probably cease to have them as a sponsor and issue an apology. Um, but for now, based on the research I’ve done, these guys are okay. [00:29:45] Jeff: Despite making everything Wes and not theys. Yeah. Right. Ours and not theirs. There’s, there’s some pronoun issues Yeah. In this read. All right. Anyway, um, okay. So I have a couple, I was [00:30:00] rolling over cables on my floor. I have a couple of, um, of topics. Uh, I think, um, and I wanted to, I wanted to start with one. [00:30:08] Skills Assessment [00:30:08] Jeff: I, I got to thinking. As I often do, I, I sort of marvel at, at your coia of skills. Um, and as, as we’ve talked about on, on episodes before, the sort of, uh, graciousness of the tools you build, um, they, they, I know that, you know, the ones that I use, which is most of them, um, really helped me with my, my sense of, um, just my sense of control. [00:30:34] Um, I can, I can really just kind of lose a sense of centeredness when I’m working, especially if I’m working on projects with like three different clients in a day. Um, and so brought your tools or even just the philosophy of them helped me a lot. So even if I’ve fallen off of the Terpstra wagon on some tool I used to use all the time, um, The sort of general philosophy [00:31:00] behind it. [00:31:00] It’s just like, let’s, let’s create order, um, where there is chaos, not pretending that the chaos doesn’t exist. That’s actually a quality of your tools that I think is, is undersold. Um, it accepts the chaos, uh, and tries to work on top of it, dance on the chaotic waters, if you will. Um, anyway, I’m, I’m going going so, so far into this bit, I was wondering if you had one skill that you could kind of snap your fingers and then apply to the, the kind of work you’ve always been doing, what would it be? [00:31:34] Huh? [00:31:39] Brett: I. Like skill, like a, like a programming [00:31:43] Jeff: skill. It could be a skill or it could be like all of a sudden you are very good at thinking about and, and applying that thinking to, you know, whatever, thinking about a thing. [00:31:55] Brett: Yeah. Um, a thing that I would like to think more about [00:32:00] would be, um, future, future-proofing code. [00:32:06] Mm-hmm. Um, and I’ve gotten way better at it. Mm-hmm. Um, I’ve gotten way better at writing code that other people can easily, um, manipulate and, and, uh, contribute to. Yeah. [00:32:18] Jeff: Take actually y you’re kind of defining now what, um, future proofing means, but go further into your definition of that. [00:32:24] Brett: Well, so write, yeah. [00:32:26] Writing maintainable code, I guess is how I would phrase that. Um, writing code that. A lot of the stuff that I’ve done has been based on APIs. Uh, take Twitter for example. Um, like a lot of the tools that I wrote around Twitter, suddenly no longer work. Yeah. Um, and writing code in a modular way that it’s easy to say, uh, substitute, uh, activity pub or whatever Blue Skies API is called, um, [00:33:00] to make it as modular as possible so that can easily be transformed when some, when something underlying breaks or, you know, like a a, a coding language like Ruby or Python goes through a major upgrade, um, make it code that’s easy to retrofit. [00:33:21] Into, uh, new requirements. And that’s, so it’s, it’s a talent I’ve, I’ve been developing, but definitely one that I would like to, if I could just snap my fingers and be good at something, that’s what I would like. [00:33:36] Jeff: Okay. So then distinguish for me, I think, you know, we can all intuit what that looks like in terms of comments, you know Yeah. [00:33:43] Which I wanna talk about in a minute. But like, I’m very interested in, in what that means in terms of writing the code itself. Like what, what are the qualities of code? You’ve said modularity is one, right? Yeah, yeah. That is future proof. It [00:33:57] Brett: is, it’s modularity. It’s, um, [00:34:00] like when I first start working on something, I tend to write these long spaghetti scripts, like all in one file. [00:34:09] Uh, not broken up well into functions, um, but by, by breaking it up into smaller methods and functions, um, that aren’t. That are, that can serve as like a single point of failure, uh, means that you can just update one function. And everything else will work, um, by properly reusing code and by, by making every action into a modular piece. [00:34:42] Then when something breaks, like say for example, you have a function that performs an API call. If you, if that API call is in the script itself and, and, uh, repeated multiple times [00:35:00] factoring, if that API changes, factoring becomes a hassle. Whereas if you call out to a single function that makes the API call, um, and maybe takes parameters, that can change what the API call is. [00:35:16] Um, then if something changes in the api, you can just factor that one function and everything continues working. [00:35:24] Jeff: Um, I would. I would imagine too, that taking that approach means that if somebody, let’s say that there’s a brand new language called Zu, uh, in, in 15 years and, and somebody who’s really good at Zul goes to look at your Ruby work and it’s, and it’s, and it’s built exactly the way you’ve just described it. [00:35:43] It must be easier to apply it to your own thing. Because you’re kind of going, oh, I see he’s doing this here and then this. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve [00:35:50] Brett: done some work lately. Trans translating Ruby into type script. And definitely, um, the, the more [00:36:00] modular something is, the easier it is to grok exactly what’s happening in a method and to rewrite it in a new language. [00:36:09] And it would be nearly impossible to convert something that was just one huge function that did everything. Uh, yeah. And you have to convert it like line by line, but you don’t know exactly how things relate to each other. And yeah, the more modular you can make it, the easier it is to translate between languages. [00:36:29] Jeff: Okay. So, so then beyond comments, I’m wondering, so I think a lot about this with, um, We talked about it last week, like when you’re using ai, like how do you denote that, right? And how do you denote it in a way that has the best chance of surviving into the future? But like, even separate than that, I’ve started to realize that, you know, with things moving so fast, like even as metadata, I would like to add a paratitudeh of context, you know? [00:36:55] Um, and or I I was wondering in your case, like, [00:37:00] is it, is it useful to comment, is it useful in the comments to say, Hey, I made this, you know, I made this thing to call this, you know, this particular a p i, this was this version of the p i and it was done in this year. Yeah, yeah, for sure. This month of this year, you know, I mean, work [00:37:18] Brett: that’s usually discernible like a well-written p i has its version number in the rest u r url. [00:37:24] I was gonna ask about that. So it’s, it’s usually pretty easy to discern, um, in cases where that’s not true. Absolutely. Uh, like denoting what version of the API you’re using, like, that’s for me, like comments. You can explain literally everything that happens in a function. And if you use like chat g p t to write your comments for you, it will, it will explain everything the function is doing and it will explain how each parameter is used, which is, I mean, [00:38:00] thorough, but when I’m reading somebody else’s code, I’m usually doing it with enough knowledge to glance at a block of code and understand what it’s doing and how it’s doing it. [00:38:13] Um, and the comments for me should just serve to, um, it should be like one or two lines that denote. Here’s, here’s what I did here. Maybe some comments within the function saying, you know, to do or fix me, or explaining why something is an unexpected way. Um, I really like yard. Um, I don’t know if you’re familiar with yard. [00:38:40] No. What’s [00:38:40] Jeff: yard? Uh, is it, is it uh, part of [00:38:42] Brett: Zu? It’s a documentation syntax use, uh, I think only for Ruby, but, um, it’s a lot like JS Doc or other, I’m sure there are things in Python that are similar, but you can write the comments out and then run. A yard [00:39:00] processing on it and it turns it into documentation. [00:39:03] Oh. Uh, so what you see is the name of the method, a description of what the method does, and then a description of every parameter it takes, and, and then it tells you what it returns, you know, an object or a hash or whatever. [00:39:18] Jeff: I’ve often wondered with comments like, where, I’m sure everyone’s different with this, but where do you draw the line between, okay, I am, I am only going to address people who have a sort of implicit skillset, um, that, that would cause them to be reading this code in the first place. [00:39:33] Like, yeah, that’s, how do you think about that? That’s a [00:39:35] Brett: good question. Like in this age of AI, that we are very suddenly in very suddenly, um, I don’t think it’s necessary to over document anything because any coder, even if they’re fresh to a language, can now ask chat g p t to explain code to them. Yeah, and it will do that. [00:39:58] And you could put that all in the [00:40:00] comments, but I feel like. I don’t know exactly where the line is, but there’s a limit to how much is actually useful when someone could just select a code block and say, explain this to me. [00:40:12] Jeff: Right, right. That’s true. Yeah. I think the only, and this hardly ever happens in comments, but it certainly does happen in comments. [00:40:19] The only, the only thing that you could add is voice. Yeah. Right. Like, which isn’t necessarily that important, but it’s like, well, [00:40:28] Brett: yeah, in code comments, you don’t. Yeah, you don’t have voice. I, I find voice annoying. Yeah, I do. I [00:40:34] Jeff: I do too. When I’m reading code, I don’t, you know. Yeah. But I, but it’s like, uh, you know, if you really zoom in on a silicone chip, there’s usually these little etchings that are like, there’s Pacman, or it’s like something silly that’s way, way deep in there. [00:40:47] Um, that’s fun, but that’s different. That’s an Easter egg. Most people just can’t see that. Yeah. That’s an Easter egg. Exactly. Um, okay, I have another related, like, uh, what if you could question that’s related to [00:41:00] last week. I talked about, um, being so happy to have found a Firefox extension that merges windows. [00:41:06] Um, because I, I spray tabs and windows, uh, indiscriminately into the crowd, um, every day on my monitors. And, and I know with like sublime text, I’ve taken advantage for so long on being able to just merge all the tabs into one window. Um, cuz I, I just like, for whatever reason, like if I’m in a big hurry, it’s just straight to a text factoror, even though I’ve got. [00:41:30] Envy ultra running. That’s where all my texts, you know, that’s where it all lives. But like I just go to sublime text. So anyway, one of the, one of the kind of reasons that that’s important is, you know, for me, we talked last week about how I need something that I can smash and everything goes back into some sort of order, right? [00:41:48] So like, uh, for me it’s being able to merge windows. Um, there are of course all these like more nuanced things. Like I have Hazel working on a ton of desktop folders to make sure that my desktop is never totally [00:42:00] insane. Um, so there’s things like that as well that are kind of running in the background. [00:42:04] But there’s this like thing that happens every day, which is my windows just build up and build up to the point where sometimes I kind of can’t think. Um, and, uh, and I need to reset. I’m curious for you. Mr. Like I’ve, I’ve written a fucking hack for everything. Um, is there something that’s, that’s, that is common to how you use your computer right now, um, that causes chaos, that is as of yet unsolved? [00:42:29] Brett: Hmm. I, so I, like, I, I have a messy desk. Yeah. Like my physical desk is, is always a little bit messy. Uh, it gets cleaned. Maybe every other month I’ll do a full clean on it, but like, I, I thrive with a certain amount of clutter. Yeah. And like right now, looking at my, my desktop, um, computer desktop, I can see, [00:43:00] see 12 different windows across two, two displays, and it doesn’t bother me at all. [00:43:06] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, like using command tab switching and, uh, hiding and minimizing. Like, makes that very manageable for me. Yeah. Um, I do like to use Bunch when I’m switching to a new context that does not require all of the windows I currently have open. I’ll just use Bunch and hide all or quit everything. [00:43:33] Uh, bunch has a command to literally quit every running app. Yeah. Um, right. Every, every running non menu bar or app, the ultimate big red button, you can just put, burn Everything into a bunch file and it will quit everything and open like a new workspace for you. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t have any friction in the way I’m working right now. [00:43:59] Um, [00:44:00] I like being able to, like, a lot of times I’ll be working in two apps at once. Um, Or two or two windows at once, and I have keyboard shortcuts that will move windows to left and right sides of the screen. Sure. Or, or like I have a keyboard shortcut when I’m working in sublime or multi markdown composer, I can just hit hyper in my case, hyper mod K, which is the same as hyper down arrow. [00:44:29] Yeah. Um, and it will center, it’ll narrow the window to like, uh, 800 pixel width and center it on the screen full, full height. And like, that’s, that’s how I like to factor text and like keyboard shortcuts that, uh, that move my windows around and arrange everything. And I can pretty much navigate entirely using my keyboard. [00:44:57] And I’m, I’m pretty happy with it. [00:45:00] I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have any problems that are nagging me. [00:45:04] Jeff: Yeah, I’m still in a situation where, partly, again, because I work on different projects with different clients, there’s like different ways of communicating. There are different ways of storing the project data. [00:45:18] Um, one way I, I kind of control all of that right now is my stream deck always has. Like, we use Google Drive a lot, which I do not love, but we use it all the time. And there are things I like about it, but overall I don’t love it. But how else are you gonna do this collaboratively? Right. So I have buttons for like, all of the major folders. [00:45:36] Yeah. Um, that’s mostly because where I have this kind of quality or this, let’s just call it a problem, um, where if I’m in a meeting, um, it’s very difficult for me to navigate things on my computer while I’m in the context of a meeting. I get, um, sort of, I’m almost like rattled if I try it’s kind. I have this problem when I’m driving where if I’m driving alone or with somebody who’s [00:46:00] quiet, I’m fine. [00:46:01] If I’m driving and talking, I’ll miss every single fucking turn. I’ll randomly turn. Right. Like all kinds of things go on. Sure. Um, and [00:46:09] Brett: it’s similar. You’re not a multitasker. Most people aren’t. [00:46:11] Jeff: No, I, and I, I accept that. Right. Like that’s like it’s scientifically supported. Yeah. It’s not, not a thing that is actually what we think it is. [00:46:21] But anyway, um, For me, having these physical buttons on the stream deck so that when I’m in a conversation with somebody, I know I can quickly pull up these folders and then help answer the question. There’s something in me that, um, it definitely lived in me in school where I was constantly terrified of being put on the spot. [00:46:40] Um, whereas I’m really super comfortable sort of in a, in a truly collaborative conversation, but if I think I’m gonna be put on the spot, I’m, I’m like, hot faced from the start. Right? Yeah. So this kind of helps me to just. Pull shit up. I need it so bad. Um, and, and, and likewise the thing that I’ve, I’ve [00:47:00] really, um, not dedicated enough time to, I need information at my hands and so I don’t have enough and say Envy Ultra, um, to be able to really quickly call up information. [00:47:11] And my goal would be to have all of my 8 million notes I’ve made in Sublime, um, that are saved in like project folders to have them all be like well organized notes in NV Ultra so that I can just pull information up quickly. Um, cuz I really pan I panic in context. Like if I’m, and if I’m in the middle of a meeting, I just [00:47:30] Brett: can’t do it. [00:47:30] So, in a similar vein, like the one thing I have on my stream deck that’s, that’s related is I have a button that raises up the zoom. Uh, yes. So I can, I can go off, I can, it’s like a panic button almost. So like, while someone’s talking, I can go check, uh, something on my machine. Yeah. I can look whatever app is necessary to follow up on what’s happening in the meeting. [00:47:59] And then with [00:48:00] one button, I can bring the, uh, now, now obscure zoom window back to the foreground. Yeah. Um, see whatever’s being shared or everything. I, I hate when screen sharing starts and it goes full screen. Yeah. Oh, I hate that that messes with me. So I immediately will always move it back to, uh, a regular window. [00:48:22] And I think [00:48:22] Jeff: you can set it to not do that. Yeah. But I still, I’ve never done it. Yeah. [00:48:26] Brett: I’ve never figured that out either. Um, but with one button, then I can get back and see what people are saying, what’s happening. Uh, and then I have buttons for mute and unmute. Yeah. Um. And start and stop video because I really appreciate at, at Oracle how it’s been normalized to show up for meetings without video. [00:48:50] Oh, that’s wonderful. It is, it is. It’s great. And like if I’m, if I’m in a one-on-one meeting and the person I’m talking to you turns on their [00:49:00] camera, I will also. Mm-hmm. Um, just cuz it feels like it’s a normal, a mutual thing. Yeah. But in most meetings I don’t have a camera on. Um, if things, if a personal question is asked that I feel like deserves a video response, I have a button that’ll turn that on for me. [00:49:19] And that’s a nice idea off later. Um, that’s a nice idea. Um, so have you played around with Hook mark? [00:49:27] Jeff: So, yes, and not since it became, I mean, I played around with it when it was called what hook. And here’s the thing. When I play with a tool like that, I can immediately see that. I am not going to go all the way in, which means I’m gonna have all this fucking croft everywhere, I think. [00:49:45] Sure. I don’t know if there’s literally Croft left behind, but since it became hook mark and it showed up in my setup and I feel like maybe it’s gonna be around, I’ve been meaning to play with it. So tell me, tell me why you [00:49:56] Brett: brought it up. Well, so when you talk about having a [00:50:00] bunch of notes in sublime, like hook mark makes it possible to, uh, organize and search. [00:50:09] Documents in disparate places. Yeah. Um, like I like NV Ultra for all of my notes. Yeah. And it, like the full tech search makes, I’ve never had, I’ve never had to take more than five keystrokes to get to what I’m, what I’m looking for. But yeah, I also have notes in PDF files. I have notes in Quip documents. I have notes in, you know, wherever. [00:50:38] And with hook mark I can correlate, like I’ll have a, I’ll have a project where it has a task paper file in my GitHub repository, and I will just hook Mark. I will hook that, that, uh, test paper file to all of the related [00:51:00] notes, whether it’s a mind map, whether it’s an NV Ultra note, whether it’s a document somewhere else on the system. [00:51:06] And from any of those connected documents, I can then just load up, hook mark, and flip to any other linked document. And it takes a little, there’s some, there’s a level of effort involved. You have to link things that you know you’re going to want to switch between in the future. It’s not like, it’s not like tagging where you can just tag something with a common tag and then be able to find it in finder search or with, uh, Huda spot or whatever. [00:51:40] Um, you have to, you have to create. Very intentional links between items. [00:51:47] Jeff: So I have a question. Well, first question is, is a really important obvious one, which is do the links to these files follow the files through the system? If you move them around? Yes. Yes. And then, okay, I figured. So, [00:51:58] Brett: um, they’re, I think they could [00:52:00] refer to them as sturdy links. [00:52:02] Oh, sturdy. Yeah. Like, you know [00:52:04] Jeff: what? That’s a sturdy link. [00:52:06] Brett: So Mac OS offers this thing called bookmarks, um, not, not to the average user, but every file on the system has a kind of a digital footprint that you can change the name of the file and the bookmark doesn’t change. It represents a file system object. [00:52:27] Um, that doesn’t, it doesn’t matter where it’s located. It doesn’t matter what it’s named. The bookmark will always find it. And I believe that’s what Hook Mark uses to [00:52:36] Jeff: make these. I was, you know, I was gonna ask you what does this look like behind what’s behind the link? Yeah. [00:52:42] Brett: Um, okay. So Hook Mark can also work with, um, any app that offers. [00:52:50] An Apple script or URL handler way to access a deep link. Meaning like, sure, you can open the document, you can open a [00:53:00] pdf, but what if you had a particular note in the PDF you wanted to be able to access? Yeah. Uh, or like a specific paragraph. And so a deep link would take you straight to that paragraph. [00:53:13] Got it. Um, those don’t have file system bookmarks the way they don’t that Okay. The way that a file would, the file itself can, but it’s dependent on the application to be able to read exactly where it wants to go. And like hook mark is compatible with a ton of like PDF viewers. For example, um, I can’t remember. [00:53:37] I don’t do a lot of deep linking in n PDFs, so I don’t remember exactly what apps are compatible with it. But, um, for researchers that that use, uh, PDFs constantly and want, want to get to highlighted notes and stuff, Oakmark integrates with some very specific apps in [00:54:00] ways that aren’t necessarily file, uh, os dependent. [00:54:04] Uh, but they are app dependent. So [00:54:06] Jeff: in the case of deep links, that’s not something that Apple provides any access to. That’s something a, a programmer has to decide to add into their app. Right. Interesting. Um, and okay, so one final question about Hook mark is actually about this bookmark thing you were just talking about. [00:54:25] How can, how can you see those? I mean, how can I, if I wanted to see what that file looks like and where those bookmarks are, what, what, what would be my pathway to seeing it? [00:54:35] Brett: Um, so I published a tool called book. [00:54:40] Jeff: It’s always the answer. I published, I published a tool called, [00:54:45] Brett: yeah, I, it’s called Bookmark. I can’t remember if it’s easily accessible on my blog or not. [00:54:51] I’ll find a link for the show notes. Uh, but, but really like this is accessible through Objective C and Swift. [00:55:00] Uh, it’s not something that is exposed to Yeah, any of the standard interface. Um, [00:55:08] Jeff: it’s not search link. No. That’s what comes up when I search Terpstra. Bookmark. [00:55:13] Brett: Yeah. Um, no, it’s, it’s literally, it’s just a, it’s a compiled program. [00:55:22] Bookmark on my site. Oh, wait, [00:55:31] I’ll see if I can find you a link real quick. factor. [00:55:40] Yeah. No. Oh, bookmark seal out here it is. [00:55:46] Dropping it into, we’ll put it in Slack and you can see what I’m talking about. Awesome. Um, Jeff, [00:55:55] Jeff: that’s me. That’s me. Yeah. [00:55:59] Brett: So [00:56:00] it like this tool I wrote basically uses objective C to expose the bookmark data for a file and it outputs it as a reasonable length. Um, basic 64. Uh, kind of fingerprint. Got it. [00:56:19] And it can read those and write those, so you can use it in scripts to, to follow a, a bookmark for a file instead of hard coding. The path to a file. Yeah. Um, you can record its bookmark and access it again, using that no matter where the file moves to on the system. [00:56:40] Jeff: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Um, even though this was kind of its own deep gratitude, uh, before we get to official gratitude, uh, because it’s getting about that time. [00:56:49] Yeah. I just wanted to say if I could snap my fingers and have any ability, it would be the ability to make space, um, in a professional context [00:57:00] to make space when there’s a new tool. I see. And I really want to play with it enough to be able to think about it, um, to be able to just make that space and not have it interrupt flows that are supposed to end in deadlines. [00:57:13] I, um, was talking to a friend who is, uh, an artist who makes these, um, these things called breathers, Paul Chan. Um, and they’re basically, if you think of the, like wavy hand things at the, at the car lot. Yeah. Uhhuh, um, He kind of figured a way to make these into things that actually elicit other emotions besides just joy. [00:57:34] Sure. Um, and, and whimsy. Um, and, and, and doing that. And if anybody’s in Minnesota, he’s, he’s, he’s got a whole bunch of these at the Walker right now. Um, doing that sometimes just one piece. He spent 89 weeks sewing, breaking down, sewing, breaking down. And an artist can do that when they’re successful and they make money that they can just decide to do that and he’s in that wonderful [00:58:00] place. [00:58:00] Um, but I wish there was a way in, in the manic world of knowledge work to find, uh, time that isn’t just, not, not late at night when you can otherwise be hanging out with your friends or family, but in the, in the, in the course of the day to just make that spaciousness. Cuz boy, I got a long list of how I’d use that. [00:58:19] Which then of course creates its own lack of spaciousness. Sure, sure. It’s all the way down. Um, but. Shall we? Gratitude? Yeah, [00:58:27] Grapptitude [00:58:27] Brett: let’s do it. Do you want Go ahead. Me to go first? Yeah, go ahead. All right. Um, I’m picking Kaleidoscope this week. Um, we may have picked it before, but they just came out with version four. [00:58:40] Um, and the, they had previously implemented a subscription price that, while I thought they deserved it, I didn’t think it was, um, commercially viable. [00:58:57] Jeff: A lot of money. Like 1 25 or something [00:58:59] Brett: like that? [00:59:00] Yeah. Like the yearly costs I paid, it would’ve quickly added up. Um, their new, their new price is $8 a month if you pay yearly. [00:59:11] Um, which. Got it to me for, for what they’re offering is, is a good sustainable deal. Um, and the new version does syntax highlighting of most coding languages. And, uh, it adds this menu bar, let me rewind. Uh, kaleidoscope is a diff program. Mm-hmm. Um, it, it gives you a, a graphical interface to, uh, diffs changes between two versions of a file. [00:59:45] It works great with Git for comparing change sets, for, uh, doing merges. Uh, if you have a merge conflict, I don’t mess around with, uh, raw files or with. Cherry [01:00:00] picking. I just run, uh, Git merge tool and it opens the conflicts for me in Kaleidoscope. And I can just use keyboard shortcuts to navigate through and pick, do I want the original or the modified or like my local version and I merge them, save, hit save, and go back to get and commit the changes and everything works. [01:00:27] Um, it gives you, it’s, it’s a, it’s a great looking app. Uh, [01:00:32] Jeff: so good di it makes Diffs mesmerizing. [01:00:35] Brett: Yeah, for sure. And you can view Diffs as side by side, unified, or, um, Uh, with, I, I don’t know what it’s called, when you, it’s like a map and it has like arrows between or like lines. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Between the two Diffs, um, I don’t know what that’s called, but, uh, the newest version adds a menu bar [01:01:00] item called, uh, kaleidoscope Prism. [01:01:03] And you can use that to diff clipboard objects. You can drag multiple files to it. Um, and it runs even when Kaleidoscope isn’t running. Uh, one, one feature they added was the ability to save a change set to, to save like, uh, a comparison as a new file. Hmm. Allowing direct factoring and I, interesting. I had to email them cuz I’m like, can you explain to me how this works in your workflow? [01:01:37] Like under what circumstances is this? Important. So I’m waiting for an email back from them on that before I write a review for my blog. Oh, nice. Because it seems like a very cool feature that should be important. I just don’t yet understand how it would fit into my workflow. Like what, [01:02:00] what do I do that could be easier if I could save and factor a change, a merge file, I guess they call it. [01:02:08] That’s, [01:02:08] Jeff: but that’s what I do with spaciousness. It’s exactly the kind of shit I would do with spaciousness. [01:02:15] Brett: So anyway, if you’re, if you’re a code, it can also do, um, image comparisons, so you can see exactly what changed between two versions of an image. Um, and folder comparisons, which I find very handy if, like, for my, um, all of my Phish functions. [01:02:35] Yeah. I, I factor locally and then will publish the pertinent ones to GitHub. So I, I use, uh, kaleidoscope’s folder comparison to compare my GitHub folder with my local folder and, and then I can just click on the files that I actually want to show up in the, I have not used [01:02:55] Jeff: it for that. That’s great. [01:02:57] Brett: Yeah. [01:02:57] It’s, it’s cool. So that’s my [01:03:00] pick [01:03:00] Jeff: for the, the, the, if, if we’ve cut your ear at the moment, kaleidoscope, the thing that I would love, and I’m sure it’s a whole thing, or it would be there is, um, audio diffs, uh, just, you know, like a three minute, you know, clip. You’ve got the wave form you’ve factored a little bit. [01:03:16] Show me how it’s different. Show me what I cut out. Show me or or video [01:03:20] Brett: while you’re at it. Like, yeah, I saw, I was watching. Um, a video on it was a reaction to a particular, uh, hardcore, um, creationist, and it showed how they were factoring when they published their version of an interview or a debate, um, how they, where they were factoring. [01:03:47] The video because like this, in this example, the, the debate itself in its full form was like an hour and a half. And what the creationist published was like 20 minutes. That made him look [01:04:00] like he won the debate. Yeah. And they showed, uh, A frame. Like a, like a, what would you call it? A timeline? Yeah. Um, of the two versions with big red blocks. [01:04:12] That’s awesome. Where stuff was factored out. That would be, this was like [01:04:16] Jeff: a, a, this was like a visualization they created. Yeah. It wasn’t necessarily automatically generated. Right. [01:04:21] Brett: Yeah. Got it. Okay. Well, I mean, I don’t know if there’s a tool that does this, like it seems like it would be, there must be a tool, it does this, we’ll, we’ll do our homework. [01:04:30] There must be, it would be such a huge manual process to go through and like figure out exactly where something was factored. But [01:04:37] Jeff: completely, I, I guess the, the last thing I’d say about Kaleidoscope is it’s an app like name Mangler, which I love, which is also beautifully designed where these are things you can do programmatically for the most part. [01:04:48] Yeah. But they make it not just user friendly, but like beautiful. So that even it sounds like from you Brett, like even people who are perfectly capable of doing this without Kaleidoscope choose Kaleidoscope. Yeah. Because it’s [01:05:00] stunning. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s very clear, very, very clear. It’s just a wonderful, [01:05:04] Brett: and they’re, they’re free merge and diff tools. [01:05:08] Um, D Delta, I can’t even remember. Like I, I’m out of the game cuz Kaleidoscope. Storm my heart. [01:05:17] Jeff: Um, mine is actually just a way that I’m using bunch, um, this weekend as I’m, when I, as I find little bits of time. So this is related to me talking about things getting chaotic and, and wanting to have a big red button. [01:05:32] Um, one specific way, uh, things got chaotic for me last week is I had an incredibly, uh, overscheduled week that involved, you know, interviewing candidates for this pro project manager job and doing interviews for a project I’m on and all this stuff. And I. I don’t know what happened, but twice this week under different circumstances, one my fault, one not, um, I was scheduled to interview a group of people and I only knew that I was the one on that interview cause I’m [01:06:00] sharing it with a colleague because I got that email from Zoom that said, so and so has joined your zoom room, which is the fucking nightmare if you don’t know what that’s about. [01:06:09] Yeah, for sure. And so I’m, I’m writing a bunch. It happened twice, right? Like, that’s the other thing is like, I feel like it’s really important, like if something happens twice, just try to take 10 minutes and yeah. Automate that shit. So, um, it happened twice and so I’m, what I’m writing is a bunch that really pulls up the script. [01:06:25] The protocol for that particular project, um, gets me in my Zoom room as quickly as possible without video. Um, there was one where I was throwing on a shirt, putting on a button down shirt before I got, just before I got there. Um, but just gets me set up and has everything in front of me. And actually, if that’s the case, I can just pick right up. [01:06:45] It’s not a big deal. Like if it’s, if I only have two seconds prepare prepared, but everything’s in front of me, that’s okay. Yeah. It’s when I start and I’m not prepared that I’m screwed. Yeah. So that’s a, that’s a use for bunch. That’s my gratitude. Thanks Brett. [01:06:58] Brett: You’re welcome. [01:07:00] I haven’t, I haven’t added much to a bunch for a while now. [01:07:03] Jeff: Well, you added enough over the course of like a year. [01:07:07] Brett: That was, that was the result of many manic episodes. Right? Right. Um, but now I’ve been stable for long enough that I’ve, I’ve been able to correct some, uh, some bugs. I’ve done some bug fixing and. Oh, I added support for the Eric browser was like the last Oh, nice. [01:07:28] Jeff: Last update. But, well, given the connection to manic episodes, I hope for absolutely no updates to bunch users out there. If you, if you care about Brett, just, just let ’em know you’re not looking for an update. Don’t tell ’em you are looking for an update. [01:07:43] Brett: My, my psychiatrist and I and my therapist are all in agreement that the occasional, occasional manic episode is productive for me. [01:07:56] Yeah. Um, and that I don’t really wanna [01:08:00] live life with zero manic episodes. Yeah. Um, But like monthly manic episodes is a bit much to handle. Yes. And like constantly, constantly, uh, ping ponging between mania and depression Yeah. That’s, is, uh, is less productive than just being stable. So we’re, we’re finding our balance, [01:08:23] Jeff: but yeah. [01:08:24] Yeah. I’m glad. I’m so glad. That’s really, uh, that’s been a big change of the arc of the time that I’ve been on this podcast and that I’ve known you. [01:08:32] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s definitely a constant, it’s a constant kind of struggle for me to like find a balance. [01:08:40] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I know one way that helps get some sleep. [01:08:45] Get some sleep, Jeff. [01:08:50] [01:09:00]

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You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript I (Git) Blame You [00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, over tired. [00:00:04] Christina: You are listening to Overtired. That’s right. We are back. I’m Christina Warren, joined as always by my friends, Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severns Guntzel. Boys. How are you? It’s been a while. [00:00:15] Brett: It’s good to be back. [00:00:16] Jeffrey: Yeah, good. You’re going to hear birds. Maybe because I refuse to shut my windows for audio quality because it’s Minnesota and it’s warm, and so let’s do [00:00:26] Christina: Absolutely. [00:00:27] Brett: directional mic. It’s working [00:00:29] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. I also have a cat that has started walking across my keyboard. I, I call him the intern now because he sent an email and deleted another, so [00:00:37] Mental Health Corner: Pets Edition [00:00:37] Brett: You guys want a, a Yeti update? [00:00:39] Christina: How How’s Yeti doing? [00:00:40] Jeffrey: yeah, the old cat. How’s the old cat? [00:00:42] Brett: So like yesterday I took him, he’s getting these shots. I can’t remember what they’re called, but they are supposed to help with like mobility and aging cats and, and they work for ’em. Um, But yesterday when I was in, I mentioned some specific problems he was [00:01:00] having and they were like, oh, this combination of him aging, dropping weight, and then these like basically stool issues, um, could be a really bad sign. [00:01:12] Brett: So we would like you to make an appointment to uh, do some, do, do a consultation, do a full physical, and I paid like $400 for labs. And then we had to go in today and I was literally expecting the worst because like two cats in a row, we took Clovis in because his breast smelled bad. And they were like, oh yeah, it’s oral cancer. [00:01:35] Brett: He has two weeks to live. [00:01:37] Christina: my [00:01:37] Brett: And you know, like this was a shock. And then we took Finnegan in because his meow had changed and we were concerned about like maybe something in his lungs or something. And he’s nine months old and they’re like, He, he’s got two weeks to live. So I have this like, fear of these appointments, but we went in today and they’re like, oh my God. [00:01:58] Brett: Yeah. E even [00:02:00] Yeti’s, uh, kidney illness. Ha the scores have come down. Everything’s looking great. You guys are doing a great job. Uh, we’re gonna, we’re gonna treat a bladder infection and we’re gonna put him on some more meds for his, uh, his runny stool. But yeah, they’re like, you’re doing a great job. This, this cat’s doing great for a 19 year old cat. [00:02:21] Brett: And I was like, oh. So relieved. It [00:02:23] Jeffrey: amazing. [00:02:24] Brett: it was because I was crying last night. I was preparing myself for the end of life, right? And so, like, I kept like, breaking down and I was like crying in front of Elle, just like trying to like deal with my, like, it’s time. We all know it’s time, but it’s mortality and it gets me. [00:02:45] Brett: And then today was such a relief. I have a little more time with my boy. [00:02:49] Christina: Yeah, that’s really good. That’s really good. I know. Yeah. And I know what you mean. Like having like that fear of like going to the doctor and hearing stuff because you’ve, that that’s the only experience you’ve had and like it sets you up. It’s, [00:03:00] you [00:03:00] Brett: Every, every pet I’ve ever had has died of cancer. Like there’s always this late stage cancer discovery and like with, with Emma, like we, we found out she had cancer and had to put her down the same day, like it all [00:03:16] Christina: uh, that’s the worst [00:03:18] Jeffrey: no wonder you’re pre crying going to the vet, you know? [00:03:22] Brett: I’ve had some trauma. Yeah. [00:03:24] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wow. I’m so happy. [00:03:27] Brett: you. Thank you. [00:03:28] Christina: That’s wonderful. [00:03:29] Brett: That might, that might even count as my mental health corner update. [00:03:32] Jeffrey: There you go. You’re, are you stepping out of the corner? I. [00:03:36] Brett: That’s me in the [00:03:37] Jeffrey: Oh no. Oh, [00:03:41] Christina: Uh, [00:03:41] Jeffrey: It’s gonna be stuck in my head. [00:03:43] Brett: I know, right? Have you ever seen the cat version of losing my religion where it’s just photos of cats and it’s like they illustrate like every line, like there’s literally a cat sitting in a corner and then there’s a cat, cat under a light [00:03:56] Christina: no I haven’t. [00:03:57] Brett: that’s me in the spotlight. And then [00:04:00] a cat in front of like a crucifix and it’s, [00:04:03] Christina: really funny. [00:04:04] Brett: it’s amusing. [00:04:05] Jeffrey: So there’s a, there’s a great story from a, a wonderful photographer based in Minneapolis. His name is Alex. So, and he’s this like kind of international photographer. He makes these, he’d uses like large format, um, cameras, and he makes these just stunning portraits. And at a certain point he started being asked to do things for like the New York Times Magazine or other things like that, like kind of big market stuff. [00:04:29] Jeffrey: And, and he was, he was told that Michael Steppe wanted to, um, wanted him to take his photo and, and he was at a point where he was just like not feeling, uh, this whole idea of like applying his art to celebrities. And so the photo he suggested, and ultimately the job was killed because of this, was that they, they meet in New York. [00:04:48] Jeffrey: And that Michael Stipe stand two blocks away and they take this gorgeous, cuz the, the large format camera is like, every detail of what’s in it is beautiful. So it would be a really compelling [00:05:00] photo. But Michael Stipe would be two blocks away, or one block probably. And, uh, so that, that got killed. But anyway, the, the r e m story always reminds you of that. [00:05:09] Jeffrey: I think it’s just a fun story. It’s not even snotty, it’s just like, he was like legitimately that’s just where he was [00:05:14] Brett: I love that idea. I feel like, yeah, if I were gonna have, I would love that picture of me to be like part of something larger and not have it be all about me. I, I would, I would and, and I would think Michael’s sip, like from what I know of him. [00:05:29] Jeffrey: You would think you’d be into it. Yeah. But like I, the, the cool thing, I’ll link this in the show notes, is that he has a photo, I think he was using as reference, which is this photo of a monk in the woods and the monk is just way off. Um, it’s just, it’s just the most amazing portrait. Anyway, I’ll pick up on the theme, which is just that I, I, I have this cat sitting next to me. [00:05:50] Jeffrey: His name is Murphy. He’s totally my best friend and my favorite person. And when he was a kid and he ate my Zoloft, that almost died. Um, and I often think [00:06:00] back to that and I get this like, enormous wave of grief. Uh, even though he’s fine, he is three years past it, it’s fine. But, uh, I, it just. I mean, so here’s like a, another cat related mental health check-in. [00:06:14] Jeffrey: I’ve started, I’ve started having a bed on my desk, like right to my right, which looks out a window. And my two cats, which are, they were they’re siblings. They were found, um, in a barn alone when they were little kittens. And so they, they’re like constantly together, constantly snuggling. So they actually, at this bed is really only big enough for Murphy, who’s the big boy. [00:06:34] Jeffrey: And then my other cat looks like the runt of a raccoon litter. And, and they sit in here and they make a little, like little fur pile and they snuggle while I’m working, like almost all [00:06:43] Jeffrey: day. And so if I’m having meetings that are stressful, I have one hand on this like giant fur pile, you know, and you can kind of feel the purring and feel the, the breathing. [00:06:53] Jeffrey: And [00:06:54] Brett: Our cat, nobody, uh, grew for a year and then just stopped growing. [00:07:00] So now she’s over two years old and still it’s the size of like, maybe even less than a one year old cat. She just, she’s a tiny, she’s a tiny cat. She’s a runt. She’s a runt of a, what’d you say? A raccoon litter [00:07:13] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s what, that’s what my other cat looks like and acts like. Does that name nobody, did it come from the movie Dead Man, or did it come from [00:07:21] Brett: came from the graveyard book by Neil Gaiman. [00:07:23] Jeffrey: awesome? [00:07:24] Christina: so my, I guess, uh, in my updates, so this is a couple weeks old now, but my, uh, my sister’s dog, boo Bear, who we love, he’s definitely my sister’s first son. He, uh, he’s a poodle. Um, he’s whatever the, not the tiniest one is, which I guess is toy. He’s mini poodle, uh, or miniature poodle, whatever. But, but he, um, and, uh, and his twin brother, uh, P bear are, are not, um, and, and Pbe belongs to my mother-in-law. [00:07:49] Christina: But, um, boo Bear has cataracts or had cataracts, um, And, and it got to the point that like, it was really, really bad and he was basically completely blind and he had surgery last week [00:08:00] and he went through it pretty well. They wanted to add the lenses, but the vet basically said that she didn’t wanna keep him under that long cuz he doesn’t do super well with being under anesthesia. [00:08:10] Christina: So he didn’t have lenses put in, but the cataracts are at least removed. So hopefully he will at least get some of his, you know, vision back. Like, I think he’s gonna be able to see things from across the way, but he’ll still have a hard time with things up close. But I’m hopeful that that will at least improve some of his quality of life. [00:08:26] Christina: Cuz it was really, really sad to see him not like he, he knows he’s been staying with my parents. Um, because my sister’s gone a lot during the day and he knows the layout to most of their house, but like, not all of it, like, he got stuck in like the bathroom in the bedroom that I stay in. It’s, it’s hard seeing, um, seeing animals deteriorate. [00:08:43] Jeffrey: Sure is. [00:08:45] Brett: All right. Well, we have some topics. [00:08:47] Apple Savings [00:08:47] Jeffrey: Well, do you wanna talk about the um, apple savings account? Cause I know you really wanted to hit on that. [00:08:53] Brett: I just feel like everyone needs to know about this. So if you have an Apple card, you can [00:09:00] now, uh, sign up for an Apple savings account also through Goldman Sachs. And it comes with, and I assume this is true for everybody, it comes with like a 4.15 interest rate, and there’s no minimum balance. [00:09:15] Brett: There’s no minimum deposit, there’s no yearly fee. It is a far better savings account than I can get through my local credit union. I moved most of my savings at this point into this Apple savings account, and instead of, instead of your cash back from your Apple card going to an Apple Cash account, it can now go into an Apple savings account, which is earning four plus percent interest. [00:09:42] Christina: I was gonna ask you about this, cuz I’ve been looking at that cuz when they sign, when they uh, you know, introduced it, I, I signed up almost immediately cuz I had um, I think about a thousand dollars in Apple cash for various things. My typical thing is that I get like my, my Apple cash back. And then I usually let it stay in there, just kind of in [00:10:00] perpetuity. [00:10:00] Christina: And then like, you know, once it reaches a high enough balance, I pay for something with it or I, I transferred to my, I transferred to my bank account, is usually what I do. And in this case, I just hadn’t, and, and I was wrong. It wasn’t, um, uh, it wasn’t a thousand dollars, I think it was 500 cuz I transferred $2,000 to my bank account. [00:10:16] Christina: So I, I’d had like, I had like 2,500 in there and then I was like, I was like, I was like, I’m gonna put. Two, two. That was like back in my, in my, um, my checking account, which was probably dumb because what I was gonna ask you is cuz I have been considering like, I think that they let you put in like 20 grand, like on a, on a, a seven day period. [00:10:34] Christina: But like, how hard is it, I guess to get money in and out? Because I wouldn’t be opposed to putting, like with that 4% thing, like you said, that’s better than a credit union. It’s better than I can get with Bank of America and they give me some pretty decent rates because, um, of, of how long I’ve been there. [00:10:49] Christina: But like how, uh, how easy is it to get stuff in and out? Because if that’s the case, like I could see myself putting, you know, like, like 20, $40,000 [00:10:57] Brett: like your, whatever you pay your [00:11:00] Apple card with, uh, it’s automatically connected to the same bank account. Um, putting money in is seconds getting money out. Like, uh, I transferred money out of Apple savings for Yeti Vet Bills, and it took about 24 hours for the money to show up in my bank’s checking account. [00:11:20] Brett: So I wouldn’t say it’s difficult, it’s not instant, but as far as bank transfers go, it’s not two to three days, it’s a day. [00:11:28] Christina: Okay, cool. [00:11:30] Crazy-Ass Google [00:11:30] Brett: As long as we’re covering my quick hit topics. also wanna mention that Google’s tap level, domain zip is a horrible idea. Like right now, if you go to malicious content.zip, they have registered, I think there’s a blog called Malicious Content about, uh, Trojans and viruses and, and, and cybersecurity. [00:11:54] Brett: Um, if you go to malicious-content.zip, Firefox will [00:12:00] download a payload. [00:12:01] Christina: will Chrome and then, and what And, and what’s inside that is A P D F, which is also problematic, right? Because then, which honestly I have to say this is brilliant on the cybersecurity people who put that together because not only is the payload a zip file, which is bad enough, but then what’s inside the zip file as a P D F file. [00:12:17] Christina: So these are two things that have been very, very exploited by, by viruses and macros and all kinds of other things. Like we’re, we’re Mac users, we’re typically more immune to these things. Um, not universally. Definitely people can create macro trojans, but usually not in, in PDFs and stuff, but like, this is, this is how, this is how you get ants as they say. [00:12:37] Christina: Like, if you, do you want ants? This is how you could, ants [00:12:40] Jeffrey: Yeah. A PDF inside a zip file is kind of like the turducken of, um, you know, [00:12:45] Christina: Yeah. Like, like, like, like, like it was a, it was a doc file, not even Doc X, like doc, like, that would be like, like adding like, uh, uh, you know, the next level of, uh, of, of, of turducken ness. Like that would be like adding a, another, another piece of lobster or something.[00:13:00] [00:13:00] Brett: what do you think Google was thinking when they made a.zip domain? [00:13:04] Jeffrey: confusing cuz obviously it’s the first thing you think is like, this is no [00:13:07] Brett: Yeah, yeah. [00:13:08] Jeffrey: super smart. So why did they knock that concern [00:13:12] Jeffrey: down? [00:13:12] Brett: feel like, I feel like somebody would’ve said as a top level domain, this is, this is ill faded. Like they have AI experts, they have ethics experts. [00:13:23] Christina: have massive security teams. What are you talking about? Like they, they, they literally have like one of the best bounty teams where they find other people’s vulnerabilities and report them to them. Like they literally, like Google has some of the most talented, you know, engineers working for them. [00:13:38] Christina: We know that. But they also have very, very smart security people cuz they have to, and it’s so dumb. And the thing is, is like they also bought, uh, dot MOV domains, which is also a problem because QuickTime files. [00:13:49] Brett: like a exe domain. [00:13:51] Christina: It really is. I mean, and, and, and look, I know that there are purists out there. Cause I’ve seen these comments on various things like, well Calm was, was a file extension back in the eighties [00:14:00] and this and that, and I’m gonna be like, okay, fuck off. [00:14:02] Christina: Neck Beard. No one had the web in the eighties, first of all did not exist. The people who had access to those things were like people who worked at universities and institutions or very, very eager hacker kids. And even then they couldn’t afford to buy domains. So it was, to me it’s just not even a comparable situation. [00:14:22] Christina: Like the.zip thing is really bad because there are a lot of people who will have things hard coded in. And, um, I saw some, um, post who basically showed, like, because of some of the, the various, uh, unicode, uh, fuckery things you can still do with domains that, you know, the, uh, ICAN has still refused to address for years, despite being called on it for like literally years and years and years. [00:14:44] Christina: You can make two files look identical, where one would take you to like a GitHub repo. They would have a zip thing and one would look the same. And if you clicked on like, okay, which one of these is legit? And like, if you clicked on one of them, it would like take you to like, there’s nothing here. And if you clicked on another one, it would download a [00:15:00] zip file. [00:15:00] Christina: But one of them is not coming from a GitHub domain. It’s coming like it’s, all of this has been spoofed and, and it’s just like, like, you know, Unicode fuckery, this is really, really bad. But, but because of the, the way the, you know, they, they can, you know, modify this stuff with the.zip stuff. It’s just, to your point, they should know better. [00:15:18] Christina: And, and this isn’t the first time they’ve done stupid shit with their, um, top level domains. Like, do you remember when they bought, they bought.app and then they bought.dev and.dev was, was, um, problematic for a lot of people because, um, [00:15:33] Brett: testing domains. Yeah, I, I [00:15:35] Christina: exactly. Exactly. So, [00:15:36] Brett: of my, all of my local host domains. I had to change, instead of bt.dev to test my local website, I had to change to dev.bt and use an [00:15:48] Christina: Right. [00:15:49] Brett: t l d for all of my extensions. Yeah. [00:15:52] Christina: Exactly. And, and so, so they’ve, they’ve done this before and like there’s a part of me that I’m like, okay, maybe if they had bought it preemptively, because you [00:16:00] know, they, they take on all these top level domains. It’s like, okay, well maybe Google did this is for a good reason and they’re not gonna roll it out to people and, and protect the internet. [00:16:07] Christina: But no, they’re just like, no, well, we’ll we’ll sell ’em to you. Why not? It’s like, [00:16:11] Brett: Oh, [00:16:12] Christina: it’s like, shut up. [00:16:13] Jeffrey: It’s amazing. [00:16:14] Brett: do know. Don’t, don’t be evil. Yeah. [00:16:18] Christina: Yeah. That, that was a long time ago. [00:16:19] Brett: was a long time ago. It seemed so quaint in retrospect. [00:16:22] Christina: It really does. And you know what’s funny is like there are a lot of people I’m most, I’m absolutely including myself in this, who really gave Eric Schmidt a lot of shit when he was c e o and chairman. And I don’t, not saying that that was misguided cuz definitely like the guy is, You know, weird and whatever. [00:16:39] Christina: But if I compare him to like, what happened when he left, and then especially like Sundar, who just seems like the, the perfect combo of like incompetent and like aloof. Eric Schmidt at least had some balls. Like Eric Schmidt to his credit, pulled out of China, full stop. He said, we are making a business decision. [00:16:58] Christina: We will not operate [00:17:00] in China. Period. Full stop. And then it was years after he left when they were like, oh, well this is a really big market. We really, we have to find a way to sort of, you know, operate, but not really operate. They kind of reneged on that. But like, I still, in my opinion, that was one of the most standout standup like business moves I can ever recall any company taking because no other tech company made that decision. [00:17:21] Christina: And that was Eric Schmidt. So like, I’m, I’m sorry, Eric Schmidt. He, cuz he was the one who created Don’t Be Evil. I was like, I, I’m sorry for dogging on you. You, you suck, but you are better than, than our current crop of tech CEOs in re. [00:17:35] Brett: In retrospect. [00:17:36] Jeffrey: You got me thinking on the don’t be evil front. Like it’s not too easy to create a shared definition of what evil meant at the time. Um, but certainly you can, you know, sketch one together and I, I wonder how different our definition of evil used in the sentence Don’t be evil is, has changed between that time and now. [00:17:57] Christina: Oh, that’s a great point. You know what? I bet, I bet in [00:18:00] some ways it’s gotten like things that we would not have considered evil. We do. And I bet in, in some ways that it, it, it’s reversed, right? Because Google, like a lot of those tech companies, and I’m sorry we’re going on a tangent, but like, I’m not talking like the libertarian like party like of Silicon Valley companies that were much more like small l libertarian. [00:18:17] Christina: Like I’m not talking about like, you know, the, the, the people who, who claim those ideals. I’m not talking about like Connor from succession. I’m just talking about people who created the internet archive and the, you know, um, electronic frontal foundation and other kind of, I guess in some ways would kind of like be like liberal, like anarchists, right? [00:18:35] Christina: Like they had like very specific ideas around freedom of speech and around accessibility of things and, and around like stopping, you know, government, um, inter intervention and things. And I think in generally in trying to kind of do the right thing as they define it, right? We feel it this way and we can do it. [00:18:52] Christina: And that’s just not really the ethos. Anymore. Like that was not, I’m not saying that it was, it was absent profit motive, cuz it [00:19:00] absolutely wasn’t. But it wasn’t as tied into kind of the, the, the corporate greed cycle that we’ve had now. And, and so it’s, it, it, I I think in some ways things that they would’ve called evil, um, we now would maybe not feel as strongly about. [00:19:15] Christina: Um, but in some things that they, they would be like, oh, this is fine. We’d be like, oh no, that is straight up evil. [00:19:19] Jeffrey: Google itself. [00:19:20] Christina: That, that’s an interesting topic. I wish somebody would write that. Yeah, well, exactly, [00:19:26] Jeffrey: Yeah. Well also it was, I remember when I first read that, I mean in, in the actual days, uh, days of your, um, I remember thinking, oh, that’s cute. This, it seemed like kind of a cute statement. You know what I mean? Um, it didn’t seem like something that went through like, uh, several large committees cause they didn’t exist at that time. [00:19:44] Christina: exactly. I was gonna say, they, they had so few people. It was, it was genuinely a startup. Right. And um, [00:19:50] Jeffrey: I feel like there should be a Minister of Prophecy at all of these, um, tech companies so that when you’re creating these, these, uh, slogans or promises, someone can be like, um, just a second. We’re [00:20:00] gonna have to speak to the Minister of Prophecy. [00:20:02] Brett: Notably, notably, no one since them has had a similar tagline. [00:20:08] Christina: Yeah. I mean, I mean, the closest was, and it was obviously, um, different. It, it didn’t have like the moral, well, eh, a little bit, but like Facebook’s was like, move fast and break things right. And, and, and then they had to kind of drop that. But like that they are still dogged by that to this day. I think the two of them, I think that that was the lesson. [00:20:26] Christina: Like, I don’t even know if you need a Minister of prophecies now. I think you just look at history and you go, everyone is going to use this slogan that you think is great and applies to your, you know, small, you know, few thousand, few hundred person company. It is going to define who you are when you become a trillion dollar company. [00:20:46] Christina: Uh, and, and people are still going to like, hold it against you or, or a 500, you know, billion dollar company. If your Facebook, like, we’re, they’re gonna, you know, hold it against you in perpetuity forever. This will define you forever. [00:20:58] Brett: I feel like the heat [00:21:00] death of the metaverse is a topic for a whole other show. [00:21:04] Christina: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. That is whole other show. Imagine if you named your company after the metaverse. [00:21:10] Jeffrey: They meant metadata. [00:21:12] Christina: Hey, good segue. [00:21:13] Jeffrey: Oh yeah, [00:21:14] Jeffrey: that’s true. [00:21:14] Brett: let’s, let’s opt not to talk about Facebook or Elon Musk. Let’s talk about Jeff’s foray into ai. [00:21:23] mundaneGPT [00:21:23] Jeffrey: Now there are two levels to that. One is sort of working chat g p t into my normal, mundane, everyday life, and the other is far more exciting work with the a p I and deeper stranger [00:21:34] Jeffrey: work. [00:21:35] Brett: see what we have time for. [00:21:36] Jeffrey: My idea is that we talk about the sort of, uh, working something like chat g p t into your everyday life and we save this big philosophical AI self-portrait conversation for the next [00:21:48] Brett: Yeah, that works. [00:21:49] Christina: Yeah. [00:21:49] Jeffrey: So I, I distinguish now because I do use chat g p t kind of all the time. I, I pay now so that I can use, so I can add, ask 25 things [00:22:00] of G P T four in every three hours. Um, goes fast. Uh, but anyway, um, so there’s that. And then there’s also sort of forays, thank you, Brett, into using the api, which is more of the topic for next week, but is has become much more interesting and exciting to me. [00:22:19] Jeffrey: And it’s so easy to do. They have such great cookbooks, just to say. OpenAI has great cookbooks for doing all the various things, um, with their api. So anyway, I, um, I think we talked about this before and what, what I was doing at the time was I was experimenting with writing, um, scripts using Chap G p t, [00:22:39] Brett: Scripts meaning automation. [00:22:41] Jeffrey: writing a Python script to parse text and make basic changes. [00:22:45] Jeffrey: And. [00:22:45] Brett: so not like a movie script, which would make you a, a picket line breaker. [00:22:51] Jeffrey: Early on. Yeah, that’s right. Early on, a friend of mine sent me something cause I had said something absurd to him in a text and he, using chat g p t, he turned it into a [00:23:00] Seinfeld kind of vignette where everyone gets a line. Um, anyway, so yeah, no, like writing a Python script to parse text or just whatever I was writing. [00:23:08] Jeffrey: Uh, working with APIs, I would just say, you know, here’s the, you know, I use whatever service I’m using. Like, how would I do this in the da da da api? And it would tell me, and as long as the API hadn’t changed since whatever the date is, that is the cutoff for chat G P T or G p t, um, it would do a good job. [00:23:25] Jeffrey: And I, and it, it kind of helped me with computational thinking because I would, you know, ask it a question. It would write an initial script. We would do a lot of stuff to fix it. But then I’d start over and I’d ask the question informed by. What I had learned in the previous chat. So I was like, the learning ai, right? [00:23:44] Jeffrey: Um, and it would write, you know, it would write, uh, scripts. You put ’em in, you get errors, you put it, you know, give them the error and it’s deciphering errors, which is amazing. So anyway, so that’s that part. But I’ve also just been testing out kind of the various other [00:24:00] exercises of my, my, uh, profession. So I write a lot of records requests, and they’re usually state level records requests, which means that, you know, whatever state you’re requesting in, let’s say you’re requesting emails from the state probation, uh, department or something, right? [00:24:16] Jeffrey: You have to know and cite. Nebraska’s, uh, public records law, which will tell you in which you then assert, you know, here’s how long people have to respond to you. You know, they have to respond to you by this amount of time. They can’t charge you in on this unless this right? And so I’ve got it writing public records requests for me, which was previously something I did using text expander. [00:24:39] Jeffrey: So I just have all that kind of text framing. But what I’ve found is that when I ask chat g p t to write a record request based on where I’m going to send it, it writes a more interesting and more legally thorough. Records request, then I would’ve otherwise written. So that stuff’s been [00:25:00] interesting. And then, um, I’ve just been using it. [00:25:02] Jeffrey: So, uh, on our kind of board of directors at the organization I’m part of. Every time we have a meeting and we have meeting notes, I run it into chat, G p t and ask for a summary as for a couple different kinds of summaries, a bulleted summary, a summary of the most important actions or topics, just to see how it works. [00:25:20] Jeffrey: And it generally works quite well. And then I’ve also been feeding it my raw notes from phone calls or other kinds of meetings or interviews. And my raw notes, meaning like my trashy raw notes, like incomplete sentences, spelling errors, no real clear sense of when I’ve gone from one subject to another. [00:25:39] Jeffrey: And it does a shockingly. Good job of inferring what is absent. Um, and, and kind of summarizing based on that. And then the, the other way I’m, I’m using it right now, and again, none of these, I’m never leaning on it as the main thing. Right? Everything has. My kind of review, careful [00:26:00] review, test it again, review whatever. [00:26:03] Jeffrey: But, uh, here’s what is a concern that’s come up for me. Um, so if I am creating documents that will ultimately be historical documents for my organization, or if I’m doing research on, like, I have all this research on a ancestor of mine fought in World War I, and I have this like bulleted information, and I asked chat, g p t, like summarize this. [00:26:25] Jeffrey: And then I said, now give me like the context, um, for this person’s unit. Now tell me what changed in the Midwest between 1917 and 1918, you know, when he left and came back. And, um, and I’m adding that into the document. And what I fear is that. The fact that this was generated by ai, which I’m noting and the fact that I am well aware that I can’t just depend on this might get lost down the road in, in the years that come, someone looks at this in 50 years and they’ll be like, oh, here’s interesting research on how the Midwest changed [00:27:00] in this period. [00:27:00] Jeffrey: But in fact, it was generated by AI and I didn’t fact check it. I just wanted to do it to see what it would do. And like that actually brings up a big question I have for both of you. Like imagine that. Problem. Imagine it in many domains. Um, one example actually could be if I’m having summaries of meeting notes from chat G p t and it actually isn’t quite perfect, but I either don’t notice cuz I’m moving too fast or, um, or it just gets past me, right? [00:27:29] Jeffrey: That becomes the record, right? Like, because the record, so if there’s one sentence off, it could one day be much more meaningful than that sentence is now. Right? It might mean I might blow by cause I’m like, well it doesn’t matter that it got that wrong. The rest of this stuff is great, right? But then I also think more in the case of being a researcher, being a reporter or whatever else, like if I imagine, you know, my story, uh, folders being in a historical society someday because I donate them just cause I feel like why not have all these Minnesota stories here? [00:27:57] Jeffrey: How do we, how do we, what do we [00:28:00] do short of, I mean, beyond metadata, I guess to say, hey, point at it and be like, Hey, hey, hey. [00:28:08] Christina: So, so that’s interesting. So it’s actually this great topic. I actually had a conversation, um, yesterday. With, um, a designer at Microsoft. Um, so Microsoft Build is next week, and I’m, I’m co-hosting and I was doing some pre-interviews, um, before the show. And this is actually gonna be a session, um, at, at Microsoft Build. [00:28:25] Christina: Um, that was just recently out of the, to the schedule. And then Curtis and I are going to be talking, um, afterwards or, or before, I’m not really sure on the timing, but he, he’s a designer who’s been working on, um, basically thinking about, okay, what is the design language and what are the things that we need to build into these large language models and these interfaces, a, to help people use them? [00:28:46] Christina: And then b, exactly what you were talking about to like, let people know about sometimes these things hallucinate sometimes the things that these things output are incorrect. Like what, what do we put into place there so that people don’t become overly reliant? [00:29:00] On these results. Exactly. To your point. And so I do feel like metadata is definitely part of it. [00:29:05] Christina: Right. I think that’s a big and important part of it. And, and hopefully metadata can persist across file formats and generations and technologies and whatnot because, uh, that, that’s always a concern, you know, that that stuff can get stripped or, or lost or whatnot, and then you lose all context. Um, but I think there’s another part of it too, which is, and I hadn’t, and I have to admit, I hadn’t, I, I think I’d read the blog post that his team put out, um, uh, like a month or two ago about how they were approaching designing, um, for, for lawyers language models. [00:29:34] Christina: But I, I, I hadn’t really, um, it hadn’t really fortified in my mind the same way, which was, okay, what are the design decisions that we need to do to let people know what’s up and what the truth is? And I feel like, you know, Even like in the notes, like in addition to having metadata, like it might need to be something where something is just called out, right? [00:29:55] Christina: Like, might have to be that explicit being like, this is from, this was [00:30:00] generated from AI and has not been fact-checked. Like, but we ha But I think we have to think about everybody who’s designing these systems, how are you informing people and, and ensuring that the correct context is there because it’s so close, so often enough that it is incredibly easy to just become reliant on the results. [00:30:19] Christina: And that’s the same thing that happened with Wikipedia in the early days, right? Like early Wikipedia. Early Wikipedia was garbage. It’s a lot better now than it was, but it was garbage. But we had access now to more information than we’d ever had access to at any previous time. So it was really easy for people to overly rely on it. [00:30:36] Christina: And then I think people went and over-indexed the other way, which was like, you can never cite Wikipedia as a source. And I’m like, okay, maybe not. But you could take some of the sources that they cite, right? Um, and, and I think that, I think that, so I think that might be part of it too, which is I think that we have to do a good job of tagging things. [00:30:53] Christina: I think we have to do a good job of in the products themselves, making clear what’s happening. And then I think there’s another [00:31:00] UI aspect where I think maybe some of these places, when they’re coming up with these claims, they have to add in footnotes as part of the output, [00:31:08] Jeffrey: kind of if you, uh, if you paste a highlight from like Apple Books, you get this long Yeah. Footnote. Mm-hmm. Man, that makes me think of a couple things. One is the importance of text files becomes, uh, relevant all over again because any kind of, I would imagine people watermarking like a Word doc or something like that, all that stuff can be stripped. [00:31:32] Jeffrey: And of course anything can be removed from a text doc, but at least if it’s all kept in good faith, you can find a way to maybe kind of bracket the, the kind of AI stuff. And like you said, to come up with like a standard footnote. Maybe you’re, you’re, you’re including what, you know, what version of the, of the model you’re using and how are you setting up that environment? [00:31:57] Jeffrey: What instructions are you kind of coding in? [00:32:00] That makes me wonder if the best way at the moment to do this, if you can do it faithfully, is to do this work in a Git repo and maybe there’s, there’s a push that’s just, I added the AI [00:32:14] Christina: So you had that [00:32:15] Jeffrey: so that you can click [00:32:17] Brett: audit trail. [00:32:18] Jeffrey: and you can go to the, then you can go to the link just before it to be sure you’re looking at only, you know, I mean, you have to really trust the person who did that, but [00:32:27] Christina: Yeah. [00:32:28] Brett: sure. But the audit trail makes a lot of sense. Like [00:32:32] Christina: I agree. [00:32:32] Brett: we can’t expect. All of the uses of generative AI to be called out. Um, like the web is already flooded with, with generative ai, but for like in a research scenario, having a pull request and a merge history that shows like, this is where it happened and you can like get blame whoever was [00:33:00] responsible for incorporating AI into [00:33:03] Jeffrey: Get, get blame. Should be a command. Get blame. [00:33:05] Brett: it is, [00:33:06] Jeffrey: it is. [00:33:07] Jeffrey: Oh, I didn’t know. Whoa. Is that, is that a deep cut or [00:33:11] Christina: one of, it’s one of the best [00:33:12] Jeffrey: heard of it. [00:33:13] Brett: I mean, it’s, it, it’s, uh, it’s more common than get bisect, which I feel deserves a lot more attention than it gets, but, [00:33:21] Christina: Bisect is great. Yeah. Get but, but, but get blamed that the hub Burnett, I think, [00:33:25] Jeffrey: Is this stuff that, is this stuff that comes up in collaboration and rather than if you were doing a solo repo or Tell me about get [00:33:33] Jeffrey: blame. [00:33:33] Brett: Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah. Get Blame is all about like figuring out whose commit broke what. [00:33:40] Christina: who did [00:33:40] Christina: what. [00:33:41] Brett: it’s a way to, it’s a way to figure out like where a bug was introduced and absolutely blame the blame, the responsible party. [00:33:50] Jeffrey: Wow. That’s awesome. [00:33:52] Brett: Yeah. So like we, we, oh my God, my cat just walked away with [00:34:00] a long chain in her mouth. [00:34:02] Brett: Um, so, uh, like I, I moved our publishing workflow at Oracle to be all GitHub based. Uh, because we could do everything through poll request, we could comment line by line, and we could go back through any article and see who added what, who edited what. And it was a way better process than like passing around goo uh, word documents with change [00:34:31] Christina: Absolutely. [00:34:32] Brett: um, like it was all in one place, one canonical document with a full change history, and you could see exactly who did what and, and I feel like that’s perfect. [00:34:44] Brett: That’s a perfect way to introduce AI into any kind of textual. Conversation. [00:34:51] Christina: No, I totally agree. And I would go one step further and I would be curious on your take on this, Brett, cause I know you’ve played around with it a little bit, but I feel like this would also be a really useful place for using things like [00:35:00] Jupyter Notebooks. Um, because, because that would be like a great way, I think, to organize things. [00:35:05] Christina: And, um, you could also have code blocks if there, if, if those things are there, and then you get the added benefit of having the tracking aspect too. But no, I fully agree with you, you, Brett. Um, I think I’ve talked about this on this show before, but I’ve, I’ve long had this dream, and I still think this is a great idea, where I’m like, okay, but what if you had like GitHub for office files? [00:35:25] Christina: Like, and people are like, oh, that’s track changes. And I’m like, and I’m like, no, it’s not, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about, I wanna see every line of, every single change, every single commit, everything that happened in the structure of a document, which you technically could do with, with the way that the, the, the XML in, in those, in those structures work. [00:35:42] Christina: And I, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Like I actually think that that would be a freaking killer product that if, if I, if I were, if I had enough money and enough, um, ability to focus my attention, I would like want to start something and like hire people to build. Cause I do [00:36:00] think that that could be like, if you were going to create like the next killer like collaboration platform, like that would actually be what it would be. [00:36:06] Christina: Is, is, is that it? Cuz it’s not the sharing aspect. It’s not the both people typing at the same time. That’s great. But, but the real thing is that granular focus on who did what and be because cuz that’s the thing that I think that people don’t understand the power about get is, is just how useful it can be when multiple people are, are working on something that you literally have this fantastic view of, of who did what. [00:36:28] Christina: And you can in, in many cases, you know, pick and choose what, what things you want to, to take and what things you don’t. [00:36:34] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s the key thing cuz like Google Docs does an interesting, I think a pretty good job of this kind of versioning, but it’s not, it’s not great at all and it’s really hard to pick out. The kind of, you know, if you really want to, like, if you’re looking at a get history, you can just, it’s so easy to just be like that [00:36:49] Brett: Yeah. It’s all about history. Like Google, [00:36:52] Jeffrey: diffs, right? Like it’s about histories and seeing the diffs, right? Like that’s, [00:36:56] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Well, that’s what’s so funny. People, people will tell me whenever I, I [00:37:00] comment on this on Twitter cause I do this every six months or so, and I’ve been doing this for years, and people are like, oh, well just do this, just do that. I’m like, that is not what I’m talking about. That is not version history. [00:37:08] Christina: If, if, if tell, tell me you’ve never used version control and really seen what it can do without telling me you’ve never used version control. Right. Because, and, and, and, and that’s not me like even trying to like flex. I’m just saying like, you don’t know until, you know, and I, I, that was one of those revelations for me. [00:37:24] Christina: I was like, I don’t know until, you know, and to your point, Brett, like you’ve essentially built a c m s. You know, using, you know, GitHub as, as your method. Um, I met a guy at GIT Merge last year, um, that the annual kind of like conference for the GI contributors who talked to, like, that is actually what they’re trying to do. [00:37:40] Christina: They’re trying to build a C M S on top of Git, but, you know, kind of abstract the GI part for, for norm’s. But, but that’s what they’re doing. Which I, I was like, he and I had a great conversation. I was like, I fucking love what you’re doing. That’s my dream. [00:37:53] Brett: there was a great Mac app called Draft Control, um, that has since [00:37:59] Christina: You told me about [00:38:00] this. It’s going [00:38:00] Brett: but it used GIT bundles, um, to, to create a change history for any document you were working on. And it would track foreground documents, so whether it was Word or a text editor or you know, text edit, like whatever you were working on, R T F files, docx files, text files, and it would just create, get bundles every time it noticed a change and you could see diffs for the entire history of a document. [00:38:33] Jeffrey: Wow. [00:38:33] Brett: And it was, it was pretty brilliant. And, and it just kind of died at some [00:38:39] Jeffrey: What was it called? [00:38:40] Brett: Draft control. [00:38:42] Christina: I remember this. Now remember you telling me about this and in this Yeah. That was a really, really cool, like genuinely a really great app. I That sucks. I bet it die because the, the developer just couldn’t make enough money off of it. Um, I’m looking it up right now. It looks like it [00:39:00] was in the Mac app store, so that didn’t help. [00:39:01] Christina: And it was only 10 bucks. [00:39:03] Brett: Yeah. [00:39:04] Christina: Um, yeah, that’s, that’s not gonna unfortunately sustain that sort of development. [00:39:09] Brett: To this conversation. I just want to add that while I don’t use, like I have GitHub co-pilot, I have code, um, and I have, there’s a new extension for integrating both of those into Xcode, which is, which is very good, but. Like, I don’t use it for a lot of code generation, but I have found it amazing for documentation. [00:39:34] Brett: Like I can just select a function, I can say document this function and it will add, you know, code appropriate comments before the function explaining literally everything. The function does way more detail than I would ever bother to go into myself and like talk about all the parameters, all the outputs, and explain exactly what the function does. [00:39:57] Brett: And I can do that with a click [00:40:00] and that’s, that’s awesome to me. I love it for that. I did, I, I post dad jokes to, um, to Macedon. I, oh, my social media. Let’s, let’s be honest, [00:40:13] Christina: Yeah. Your dad, I was gonna say you [00:40:14] Christina: do. [00:40:15] Brett: I did the, I, I posted this dad joke that was Panda. Walks up to a bar and says, Hey, can I get a rum and dot, dot dot. [00:40:23] Brett: Coke and the bartender says, of course, but what’s with the big pause? And the panda looks ashamed and says, I was born with them, but they really blew up in my teens. And the bartender says, I’m sorry, that was really rude to me to point it out. And the panda says, that’s okay, man. They’re hard not to notice. [00:40:40] Brett: They hit it off and after last call, they had to hit his place. That was the post. And then someone was like, I couldn’t stand that. It ended there. And I was wondering about the fate of the two G P T comes to the rescue and spoiler alert, I was relieved to hear that they pivoted to online orders and workshops creating bamboo infused [00:41:00] drinks during the pandemic. [00:41:01] Brett: Um, that’s from a Andrea Adrian Nik, but. Like chat g p t as a responder, like I can write a cur, a Kurt terse email in response to something and then I can just real quick run it through [00:41:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:41:18] Brett: p t and say, make this friendly, [00:41:21] Jeffrey: Uh, [00:41:21] Brett: make, make this response friendly, and it will nail it almost every time. [00:41:26] Jeffrey: That’s a good everyday mundane use. I realized that I got a so off topic of like, what, how else do you use it? [00:41:33] Brett: Yeah, [00:41:33] Christina: No, no, I think that’s a great one. What I’m gonna say, um, uh, the waiting list is we’re letting people off the waiting list all the time, but, uh, the waiting list is still really long. But I would be curious when copilot chat comes out, um, to see what your take on that would be, because that I’ve been using. For a couple months now, and it basically puts in, um, a chat window in, in VS code. Um, this is only in VS code right now. Um, because we have the, the Neo Vim [00:42:00] extension, that’s how people have been able to create extensions for things like Xcode and, and other stuff. And, and we’re, we’re obviously hoping to be able to bring some of these other, um, experiences to other things, but it’s, it’s difficult. [00:42:11] Christina: But, uh, the co-pilot chat, basically you can like ask a question. It’s got kind of its own sidebar, kind of get a list of topics, um, where you can explain something. You can say, fix something. Hey, I’m having a problem with this line. Can you fix the bug online? Whatever. And you can interact separately from where your code is, but you can then move stuff back and forth. [00:42:31] Christina: So if I said, you know, write me a, um, you know, write me a code to do this, it’ll create it and then I can put it in my, my document and then I could say, okay, convert it to this. That’s one of my favorite use cases, uh, right now is, is like having it like convert one block of code that’s in one sinex into another. [00:42:48] Brett: yeah. Well, and check G P T can analyze error logs in context and tell you how to fix errors, and that’s outstanding. [00:42:57] Christina: Well, that’s the whole thing, right? I think that’s, that’s what [00:43:00] what, uh, people sometimes miss about when they, when they hear about like these, like things like chat, g b t and, and co-pilot, which uses the same technology and, and some of these other services, is that the ones that are really good are the ones that know the context of what you’re talking about, where you can ask those follow on questions and that’s what makes it different than just auto complete. [00:43:17] Christina: It is fancy, auto complete, but it’s auto complete that has like a history log and, and that understands, and, and even like in the case of like copilot, like if it sees all the files in your project, it can analyze all of those things. So it’s not just looking about like the document you’re in right now and, and that that’s, I don’t know, that’s the stuff that to me just like makes me super happy. [00:43:39] Jeffrey: me, you made me realize, as you said that, that I now go to chat g p t with errors to interpret them before I go to Stack overflow. [00:43:46] Brett: Yeah. [00:43:47] Christina: Yep. [00:43:47] Jeffrey: everybody. I mean, recognizing that it might be [00:43:50] Jeffrey: wrong. [00:43:50] Brett: and chat. G P T four with web browsing is amazing for replacing Stack Overflow. But before we get to gratitude, [00:43:59] Podcast Swap: Mac Break Weekly [00:43:59] Brett: I [00:44:00] want to tell our listeners about a couple of podcasts. First, we wanna talk about Mac Break Weekly for IMAX iPhones, iPads, apple watches, apple tv, uh, and the ins and outs of Apple, shaking up things in tech. [00:44:15] Brett: The Mac Break Weekly podcast covers it. Joanne Lela Port with Jason Snell, Andy ico, and Alex Lindsay on the Mac Break Weekly podcast. They dive into new products, future innovations and everything Apple related. I think you’ve been on the show, right, Christina? [00:44:32] Christina: Oh yeah. I’ve been on, I think I was actually, I think I was actually on the very first [00:44:36] Christina: episode. [00:44:37] Brett: regular contributor, [00:44:38] Christina: Yeah. Is, and, and, and, oh, look, you’re literally talking about like four of like the best like Mac people ever, you know, Andy, Leo, Jason, Alex. Like, they’ve been around forever and they know everything and they all have really good perspectives of different things. [00:44:51] Christina: Like, like Alex, especially during the pandemic stuff, like his experience with doing video production and, and conferencing stuff. Um, especially on your Mac, [00:45:00] really good info. And, uh, you know, Jason, Leo, and, and Andy of like, they’re, they’re heroes. [00:45:06] Brett: is the only one I’m not familiar with, but Andy, Jason, and Leo, I have followed since the early two thousands. So, uh, get it, get a new episode of Mac Break Weekly every Tuesday by subscribing on Apple Podcast, Spotify pockets, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And we also wanna talk about the short game. [00:45:28] Brett: The Short game. The Short game. If you like video games but can’t remember the last time you hit the end credits, check out the Short Game podcast. [00:45:37] Christina: I love [00:45:37] Podcast Swap: The Short Game [00:45:37] Brett: The Short Game is a weekly podcast about games that takes just a few hours to complete from the latest narrative indies to brief, but brilliant classics. [00:45:47] Brett: Every episode starts spoiler free, so you can listen without fear. And with a nine year back catalog, they’ve probably covered your favorites like Under Tail, Hades, Celeste, and [00:46:00] Vampire Survivors, they’re only rule. The Game must be short. The Short Game is hosted by Reagan, Kelly, Shane, Kelly, and Laura Nash. [00:46:10] Brett: And Nate Heininger for time. Poor 30 somethings who prove you can be a parent, a professional, a full-fledged adult, and still love games. You can find them by searching for the short game on any podcast platform or head to short game.fm for all the links and buttons, the short game podcast games that respect your time. [00:46:34] Brett: That’s short Game fm [00:46:38] Christina: Nice. So I, I’m assuming they’re not gonna be talking about the tears of the kingdom. [00:46:43] Brett: I, but everyone else is, so it’s [00:46:46] Jeffrey: I gotta get started. It’s happening in this house. I gotta get started before I [00:46:49] Christina: I was gonna say, are your boys playing it? Cuz I, I I have to, I have to imagine like your, your, your, your sons are all about it. [00:46:55] Jeffrey: Yeah, they’re both playing and loving it and I, I played through, uh, breath of the Wild and [00:47:00] so I really wanna [00:47:00] Christina: Yeah. So fun. [00:47:02] Jeffrey: now. [00:47:03] Brett: All right. Crap, dude. Can I kick it off? Mine will be [00:47:07] Christina: Please do, do it. [00:47:09] Brett: So there’s this service called Ground News. That’s the web address ground news that offers current headlines from, it’s like all sides if you’ve ever seen that. But it offers it from all, all points on the political spectrum and ranks each story based on how many right wing or left wing or centrist, uh, organizations reported on that headline and then ranks each one based on its factuality and says, you know, generally fable or questionable and gives you a way to take the current news stories, which are probably anybody is getting in their bubble. [00:47:52] Brett: So they’re getting their bubble’s idea of this story, and it gives you a chance to kind of break out of your bubble and [00:48:00] see what other sides are saying. I have, I have gotten my my mother into using this. And we have found common ground on articles that normally she would’ve come to me infuriated about. [00:48:13] Brett: Uh, but she’s able to see, oh, there are multiple sides to this problem. And, and you’re able to see like maybe this news article that got you incensed, maybe it’s questionably accurate and be able to see, okay, sure. Uh, my left wing news sources are reporting this in a, in, in one way. In my right wing sources are reporting in another. [00:48:37] Brett: So just for an unbiased take on news, uh, ground news is my pick of the week. [00:48:44] Christina: Uh, very nice. Very nice. I like that a lot. And, and I like they have a browser extension as well. Um, which is, which is rad. I, I’m going next because, um, uh, Jeff’s section is, is hell along, but hella awesome. [00:48:56] Jeffrey: won’t be, I, I have a short version of my section. [00:48:59] Christina: Well [00:49:00] go, no, go as long as you need to. Um, uh, I was gonna pick Sky, which is like a, a wrapper for, for Blue Sky, for for Mac Os that I quite like, and I will have that in the show notes. Um, we haven’t talked about Blue Sky, but we’re gonna talk about that, um, at some point. Uh, it’s pretty awesome if, if, uh, if you’re there. [00:49:14] Christina: Um, uh, all three of us are there. I think I’m probably the most active, but it’s, it’s a fun place. Um, but so, so Sky is, is good. And I also have a GitHub repo in my stars. I have a collection of, of a blue sky goodness, similar to my Mastodon. Collection just of, of cool projects that I run across. But the thing that I’m gonna talk about, because I just saw this on Restless, that he didn’t talk about is default folder X six, because I didn’t even know, I knew that that, um, um, uh, he had been, um, working on it. [00:49:43] Christina: So I, I’m a huge fan of default Folder X. I’ve been using it for, I don’t even know how many years. It’s one of my favorite apps. It’s one of those apps that I love it so much that I do this weird thing where I usually buy it. But then I use the setup version as my installed version. And I do that because I want him [00:50:00] to get it in them, I guess the team to get like the recurring revenue of my usage from setup. [00:50:04] Christina: But I also feel like. I, I need to pay for it. You know, like, it, it’s one of those things I, I really do get that much value out of the app. I feel like I don’t pay enough for it. And so just looking at like the, the, um, like list of like new features that are coming to it, this looks like this is gonna be really, really great. [00:50:25] Christina: Um, and, uh, and then for people who aren’t familiar, default folder X basically makes it really easy for you to have default folder commands. It’s kind of like a window overlay of like the, the, the save as dialogue and, and all Mac apps. Um, you can, um, have, uh, you know, set folders for certain file types or for, for certain locations. [00:50:44] Christina: You can have favorite folders, pens, so that you can easily access them. You can also do things like, one of my favorite features is to have, um, uh, uh, hot keys to go directly to a specific folder that I wanna go to. Anytime I’m in the Finder. I know you could use like a million other apps for that, but I really like. [00:50:59] Christina: [00:51:00] Default folder X. Um, and it’s just, it’s really good. And it looks like, um, one of the, and, and you are the one who put it on here, Brett, so I’ll let you talk about it too. But it looks like one of the big things, a uh, finally you can sync your, your settings between two max. And so I’m not gonna have to like copy my p list files anymore, which is what I’ve been doing over the years. [00:51:20] Christina: That’s really cool. But b, it looks like it’s got kind of like a, um, a launch bar, uh, slash alfred slash like a raycast quick search, which any app that wants to adopt that paradigm. I’m, I’m a big fan of, and, and I’m one of those people who like, I don’t think I can have too many, like, as long as I, you know, know what my, my shortcuts are for it. [00:51:38] Christina: Um, I’m a big fan, so, [00:51:40] Brett: Yeah, everyone should just adopt command shift P. But yeah, the quick search is cool and they just added spotlight, like a fallback. If you use the quick search to go through like all your recent files and favorite files and you don’t find what you’re looking for, it can fall back to a spotlight search. [00:51:58] Brett: So it’s becomes [00:52:00] kind of a universal quick search for files and folders. I would say the one other thing that I love default folder X for is just its basic UI tweaks that it does, like expanding fields, making, making certain inputs bigger, uh, allowing, uh, file tagging on any save dialogue. Like just little, little tricks that it pulls on the ui, uh, that when it’s not present, it’s immediately noticeable to me. [00:52:32] Christina: I was gonna say, it’s one of those rare, rare, like, um, mac like, um, modifications that I actually, uh, really prefer the modifications than what like the default Apple thing is, which is almost never the case to the point that, yeah, to your point, it is literally one of the first apps I ever install on a New Mac because I can’t deal with the, with the normal save dialogue and stuff without it. [00:52:55] Christina: Like, I genuinely can’t. It’s one of those things I’m like, this is, this is not gonna work for me. [00:53:00] Like, I remember that with, with one like beta, like Mac os version. A few years ago there was a problem with, with default folder X and, and it like completely like ruined. The beta for me because I was just like, I can’t, I can’t not have, you know, this, this overlay and have like these expanded fields to your point and, and this other stuff. [00:53:18] Christina: Like, I’m like, this is, this is not good. [00:53:19] Brett: When you, when you pull down the dropdown to like go to parent folders, the, the one UI tweak that I love the most, uh, that default folder X adds is every folder in that list has a, a right arrow and you can go into the subfolders of any of those folders and you can just like navigate to any directory off the, off any point in the parent tree of the current folder. [00:53:46] Brett: And I find that ridiculously useful. [00:53:50] Jeffrey: Awesome. [00:53:51] Christina: Yeah. Especially cuz we all have this situation where you need to put it in a specific file and a specific thing. Because many times like to to to your, like as we were talking about [00:54:00] before with our virgin control and other stuff, like we’re, we’re storing things in different places. We might be having them on various cloud drives or other things. [00:54:06] Christina: And like where Macel West stores, that is often not what you would think and you have to go into a folder of a folder of a folder, you know? So yeah, I totally agree with that. [00:54:16] Brett: All right. Jeff, what you [00:54:17] Jeffrey: Okay, so I, I’m gonna, it’s not what I have in the show notes, everybody, just so you know. Um, but it’s the, it’s, it’s what caused it. Um, okay, so I am, mine is actually this Firefox extension called Foxy tab. And I, I, I, I’m just gonna blow your minds with this one, but the reason I came upon it was I was just looking for a way to merge all of my, um, Firefox windows, uh, when I’m ready to clean up my desktop, and I use an extension for that and, uh, or package for that. [00:54:45] Jeffrey: And sublime text. A lot of lot of apps have it built in Chrome and Safari, have it built in. I’m super glad Firefox didn’t, because once I. Got to Foxy tab, I realized it does all these things I didn’t even think to dream. Um, and so I’m just gonna run [00:55:00] through, uh, some of the like amazing functionalities. [00:55:03] Jeffrey: Okay. So I’m literally, I’ve pulled up the, you know, foxy tab, like dropdown menu to do work on a tab, and it starts with, it could save the tab as P D F, which is awesome. Um, there’s a screenshot option. That’s great. Um, then you can actually, like, there’s a copy option. You can copy the tab title, the tab ip, the tab url, uh, you know, like all of these different, uh, bits of the tab, which is totally awesome. [00:55:29] Jeffrey: And then there’s like a bookmarking thing. Uh, there’s a thing where you can, if you’ve got a million tabs up and you can close just the ones that are already bookmarked, um, which to me is just genius. [00:55:40] Christina: That’s awesome. [00:55:41] Jeffrey: Yeah, cuz between duplicate tabs, which you can also deal with between duplicate tabs and tabs that are bookmarked, like that’s probably 50, 60% of what’s open half the time. [00:55:50] Jeffrey: Um, and then there’s like this whole bit where you can sort your tabs by U R l ascending or descending by title, by last, accessed by [00:56:00] domain, um, which is totally awesome. [00:56:03] Brett: It has a, it has like a close all to the left or [00:56:06] Jeffrey: Yes, exactly. Yep, it does. And then this is huge for me. Pin all pin to the left, pin to the right, and then unpin all unpinned to the left, unpinned to the right. Like I get my pins become just this really, like, really weak way of saving something until later. Um, and so being able to do that is huge. Uh, and then of course the reason I came merge all windows. [00:56:31] Jeffrey: It’s just like an awesome, awesome, awesome, um, extension. So I really like, again, I, I knew these were problems that I needed solved, but I didn’t think to look for the solution [00:56:41] Christina: No, I love it. And, and, sorry, sorry, what’s the, what’s the extension called [00:56:44] Jeffrey: Foxy tab. [00:56:45] Christina: Foxy tab. Okay. That’s, I, I was looking Tabby for some reason, Foxy tab. I wish, now I’m like, jealous that this doesn’t exist for other browsers. Like, this is almost enough of a thing to make me wanna use Firefox [00:56:56] Jeffrey: yeah, [00:56:58] Brett: Does it not exist for, [00:57:00] I suppose it’s Fox? It’s [00:57:01] Jeffrey: yeah. It’s got Fox in it. [00:57:03] Brett: I would recommend, um, I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at it, but I’ve talked about it on the podcast before. War koa. [00:57:10] Christina: Yeah, I have. [00:57:11] Brett: Um, I use War KOA on Firefox and Chrome, and it is just spectacular for managing, uh, tabs in context. So I like open up my general context or I open up my, uh, overtired context and it loads all the tabs that are related to that thing. [00:57:32] Brett: And then when I’m done with that thing, when our podcast is over, I just close the overtired, the context, all those tabs close. But next time we start podcasting, I just click it [00:57:43] Christina: You do it again Yep. Yeah, I use my, my, um, I’ve looked at work before. Um, I’m not opposed to paying. I just don’t know if I would use it enough to pay $7 a month is my thing. [00:57:54] Brett: pay it. I [00:57:55] Christina: Well, no, totally. Which I, which, [00:57:56] Brett: Yeah, [00:57:57] Christina: no, which I, which I totally understand. I’m just saying, I [00:58:00] don’t know. Based on like knowing my own like patterns of usage, like I would have to really get myself in like the zone of being like, this is my primary use case for something and then I think it would totally be worth it. [00:58:11] Christina: What I do that is similar is I’ve been using, um, ar, the ARC browser a lot. [00:58:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:58:16] Brett: Sure. [00:58:17] Christina: And, and that I have set up in a very similar way where I have like certain, you know, tabs for, uh, different personas and different things and different things tagged and, and stuff to go there. But for me, that’s still different than like what, um, Foxy Tab is doing because there are times when I’m not in those contacts and I just wind up having a shitload of tabs where I start a research thing and then I’m like trying to use one tab and organize them all. [00:58:40] Christina: And like using my, my Apple Script things where I get like a markdown, um, uh, list of, of every open tab, like, you know, across browsers. So I have like, um, I have like a, like a Semicolon Links I think is for, uh, for Chrome’s. eLink is Edge, Flinks is Firefox. Slinks is [00:59:00] Safari. And then, um, and I, a links I think is, is Arc. [00:59:03] Christina: So I’ve got like all those things, you know, done. But, but then I, the merge windows stuff, that is the thing, like I, I struggle with all the time where I’m always trying to look up like, what, what is the shortcut? Like what is like the, the extension? Like what is the, the key command to merge windows or to transfer things from one to the other? [00:59:20] Christina: Because sometimes I have like these two giant monitors and I’ll have like, I don’t know, a hundred tabs open across things. I’m like, okay, but, but I need to put them all here. Yeah. [00:59:30] Jeffrey: then being able to prune, cuz like my old, my old like, you know, press to launch was if I needed to close my browser, I just did save all these bookmarks in a folder called inbox. Right. Like, uh, and that’s so imperfect. Um, I what [00:59:46] Jeffrey: I [00:59:46] Brett: ever, did you ever [00:59:47] Jeffrey: No, but you never go back to them. Right? That’s the point. And so what this allows me to do is prune, right? [00:59:51] Jeffrey: And I, that’s what I usually need to do. And like Brett, to the point of, I dunno if I’m saying it [00:59:57] Jeffrey: right, but, um, for me, [01:00:00] like why this is. Is better for me than what Kona is, is that it is a big red button and I need big red buttons. And, and like an example of that too is like I, I use moo, you know, the window management thing for all kinds of stuff, but the most important thing is when I get started for the day, I lay my windows out how I need ’em for whatever I’m doing in the beginning of the day, I take a quick snapshot that is assigned to a keyboard shortcut that I always use the same one, so that throughout the day when things get messy and I need to just reset to the, to this layout, I don’t have a layout that I use every time. [01:00:33] Jeffrey: I just have this like snapshot for what, how I wanted it to be in the morning. Um, it’s another big red button, right? Like I, I would love, I’ve used work, I would love to be a good user of work, but I’m, I find that my disposition is, is, is really like geared towards red buttons. Like slam it with my hand, you know? [01:00:55] Jeffrey: Anyway. Good stuff, [01:00:57] Brett: right. Should we call it [01:00:59] Jeffrey: let’s call it. [01:00:59] Christina: [01:01:00] Let’s call it, [01:01:01] Brett: I, uh, I have to pee so bad right [01:01:03] Jeffrey: Oh, yeah. Well, let’s definitely call it. [01:01:06] Jeffrey: All right. [01:01:06] Brett: Um, you guys get some [01:01:08] Jeffrey: I get some sleep. [01:01:09] Christina: Get some sleep. [01:01:11] Jeffrey: Don’t let the bedbugs bite. [01:01:13] Outro: The.

Christina and Brett talk Tucker Carlson, Don Lemon, Single Drunk Female, the resurgence of RSS, and their favorite apps. Sponsor Factor gives you fresh, never frozen meals, ready to eat in two minutes. Save 50% on your first box with code overtired50 at factormeals.com/overtired50. Check out the latest in iOS on the iOS Today podcast with Mikah Sargent and Rosemary Orchard. Show Links Tucker Carlson out at Fox Don Lemon out at CNN Single Drunk Female Ted Lasso Wrexham got promoted NetNewsWire Shortcat Paletro Fever Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Overtired 327 [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, you’re listening to Overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren. Jeff is off this week. Christina, how you doing? [00:00:13] Christina: I’m doing pretty good. I’m doing pretty good. Um, we’re probably gonna talk about it some, but, uh, I, the, the day started off, we’re recording this one on Monday, so we’re recording this a little bit differently than we normally do with some, uh, very big media news happening in the world. Like some, some seismic like earth shattering media news, which doesn’t directly affect me in any way at all. [00:00:33] Christina: Um, but it is very exciting for me as, as a media watcher. So, um, [00:00:39] Brett: so your choice, you want to, do you wanna kick into that before a mental health corner, or should we get mental hor Health corner squared away? [00:00:46] Christina: let’s square away mental health corner and then we can talk about all the, all the media upheavals. [00:00:50] Mental Health Corner [00:00:50] Brett: So how’s your mental health, Christina? [00:00:52] Christina: It’s doing okay. It’s doing okay. Um, I was able to convince my mother that Taylor Swift, uh, is, is not, [00:01:00] um, a, a devil worshiper. [00:01:03] Brett: That’s a win. [00:01:03] Christina: That is a win. And so I’m taking her to the concert, um, this Friday. So I’m flying into Atlanta, and then we’re gonna go to the concert, and then I’m gonna stay in Atlanta for like another week, um, or 10 days I guess, so that I can be there for my nephew’s, um, second birthday, and then I’m, I’m coming back. [00:01:22] Christina: So, [00:01:23] Brett: So what tipped the scale? What, uh, how did you convince your mother that this, the witchcraft accusations were nonsensical? [00:01:31] Christina: well I’d already kind of had a conversation with her and then I kind of let it go. Like I didn’t talk to her for a while and then I, when we were on the phone again, I was like, okay, I wanna bring this up because, you know, like, I, I haven’t done anything yet, but, but it’s, I, I can still get tickets and, and, and I, I wanna do this. [00:01:51] Christina: And she was able to, um, I think that that had dissipated, I think that, that, like, the fear on that, she was like, and you don’t think, and I was like, no, not even [00:02:00] remotely. Her fears were about like, being around all these people and potentially getting covid. And I was like, that’s fair, but you know, you can, you can wear, wear a mask or whatever. [00:02:08] Christina: And I was like, I was, I was like, she was like, well, you know, we could go another time. And like in my mind I’m like, not wanting to say like obvious, which is like, you know, next time she tours, like, you might be in a different place in your life where you might not wanna do this. So I instead, I just kind of appealed. [00:02:22] Christina: I was like, look, this is literally getting heralded. It’s like one of like the best tours of like all time, like this is like, this is like a once in a lifetime sort of event. And I was just like, I, I wanna share this with you, so. [00:02:38] Brett: So, cuz like, despite being 29, your mom’s kind of up there in years, right? [00:02:43] Christina: Right, right. [00:02:44] Brett: So you never know. You never know if she’s gonna be mobile and, and so, okay, side side note, did you know that the current season of Sex in the City, the Stars are older than the first [00:03:00] season stars of, uh, golden Girls? [00:03:03] Christina: Yes. And it fucks me up. [00:03:05] Brett: That’s so weird. [00:03:06] Brett: That’s so weird. [00:03:08] Christina: Well wait, well what it does though, is it kind of like reaffirms like, I mean, you know, they called all the golden girls and you’ve had Pi Arthur and um, um, what’s her face? Um, uh, the woman who played, um, Sophia who had gray hair, but like, they were still like fucking and stuff on the show and, and, and, and we all thought they were old, but I think it was cuz of the title, right? [00:03:32] Christina: Like, if they hadn’t called it that, like, I don’t know. [00:03:36] Brett: that is how they sold it, [00:03:37] Christina: That is how they sold it. Exactly. But, but it’s so funny because now I think, you know, if you’re like, oh, you know, selling a show about women in their fifties, no one would think that they were like golden. Anything. You know what I mean? Like, like that, like that that implies like you’re in your seventies, you know, like whatever. [00:03:53] Christina: But like [00:03:54] Brett: like in my, in my mind, that’s gotten worse, not better, but apparently [00:04:00] like women in their fifties are now viewed as, you know, viable human beings in a way they weren’t [00:04:05] Christina: Oh, 100%. 100%. 100%. And, and you know who I have to weirdly credit this with, and this, this feels weird to say Andy fucking Cohen, because Real Housewives, like that whole franchise has made women like, who are 50 plus, like they are, that is the women who star and like run that world. Like, they like, they like they started in on their forties, but like really it’s when they’re in their fifties and they are getting into drama and they’re getting into relationships, they’re getting into all kinds of other shit and like, They are, you know, that is, that is who runs that franchise, [00:04:39] Brett: my girlfriend is edging up on 50 and as a, like, I, it doesn’t, it, it’s just a number, right. But at the same time it’s 50. Like, I’m gonna be dating a 50 year old and like that’s taken some, I’ve had to come to terms, she’s five years older than me, [00:05:00] and, uh, it’s like, it’s five years. I’m, I’m 45, so like, I’m 44, almost 45, but like five years is very insignificant. [00:05:11] Brett: We’re the same age in, in the grand scheme of things. And I don’t know why it ever bothered me, but I think it’s a societal thing. This like idea of like 50 years old. You’re you’re pasture prime. Yeah. You’re, but she’s not at all. She’s a, she, she does yoga four times a week. And [00:05:31] Christina: she’s probably better, honestly, she probably is better in shape than like women who are [00:05:35] Brett: Mo most thirties. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:38] Christina: Um, uh, certainly better shape than me. Um, and like, yeah, no, it, it is weird how it is such a societal thing and like, it’s, it’s, [00:05:48] Brett: don’t tell her that. It freaked me out though, because it freaks her out. Like turning 50, freaks her out. Um, and she doesn’t need to know that. It also freaks me out a little. [00:05:58] Christina: No, I mean, yeah. No, [00:06:00] she [00:06:00] Brett: This is just between you and me. [00:06:01] Christina: yeah, and, and, and the internet and, and ho and, and, and, uh, and, and hopefully l doesn’t listen, but if she does, I hope she knows like a, it is just a number. There are plenty of people who are younger who are in worse shape and plenty of people are older. Like you see it all the time. [00:06:15] Christina: Like, again, I, I also have to say, I have to give a little bit of credit to the Kardashians here because their whole like refusal to like, stop being like hot online is doing great things for women in their forties. And like, they’re not gonna stop, like when they turn 50, you know what I mean? Like, like, they’re never like, like, like, like people make fun of Madonna and granted, she’s like done too much shit to her face lately. [00:06:40] Christina: She’s also 65 years old. So like if you think about Madonna in her fifties, Madonna in her fifties was still really fucking hot and like, hadn’t fucked up her face that way, right? So, so there’s, you know, like my whole thing with her now, I’m like, look like you can do whatever the hell you want. You’re [00:07:00] Madonna, you’re the best. [00:07:01] Christina: Um, maybe lay off some of the fillers or like get better surgeons. However, like do whatever you wanna do. You still are amazing and can still kill it. So I, I’m grateful that we didn’t have this in the eighties, but now we have like these examples of like, Viable, like hot people who are, it hasn’t changed the whole thing cuz people still, like, if you’re over 30, people still consider you out to pastor if you’re a woman. [00:07:28] Christina: But, um, and this has never been that, that way for men ever. Um, like, uh, Catherine Zeta Jones and, and, and, um, Sean Connery we’re in a movie together where they played love interests and he was literally twice her age. Um, so like, and then that, that was in 1999. But like now, I think it’s, it is getting to the point where at least we have like better pop culture examples of like, women who are still super fucking hot, [00:07:58] Brett: Because there is [00:08:00] every chance that l will listen to this episode. I would like to say that I have officially dealt with my reservations. Like I’m totally fine with it. Like I, I came to realize I’m gonna be 50 in a few years myself, and I, I don’t, I, I’m not interested in girls half my age. Um, 25 year old girls still have a lot to figure out and I really enjoy, um, age appropriate women. [00:08:28] Brett: And, and, and Elle is, Elle is fucking fine and looking great and I, I, I love her. So, [00:08:37] Christina: you love her and, [00:08:38] Brett: I get through it. [00:08:39] Christina: well, and like, it’s not like you’re trying to have kids, right? Like this is like the one example that men will, will give, where they’ll be like, well, I still wanna have children. And like that, that’s the only biological limiter that like women do, genuinely have. Like, is that you go through menopause or whatever and um, but like if you’re not trying to have kids, [00:09:00] then who cares? [00:09:00] Brett: Yeah. And I, I took care of that problem a few years back, [00:09:05] Christina: Right. So, which is good. I’m glad you took care of that problem because usually it’s us who has to take care of that problem, uh, and on, on every [00:09:11] Brett: so easy for guys to get a mastectomy. It’s [00:09:15] Christina: I know, I know. You, you get a snip, you [00:09:17] Brett: don’t even have to go under for it. [00:09:19] Christina: no, you get a snip, you, you, you get some ice, you get some pain, you get some painkillers if you’re allowed to take those. [00:09:25] Christina: And that’s it. [00:09:26] Brett: yeah. And then it’s, and then it’s done and it’s safe. And a hysterectomy is, holy shit. That is the most invasive procedure I can think of. [00:09:36] Christina: But the number, the number of, of, of women that I know who, and the, these are like women who are like younger than me, who are like, yeah, my boyfriend, my husband, whatever, won’t get a mastectomy and I’m worried about this and that, so I’m gonna have to get my tubes tied. And I’m like, I’m like, holy shit. [00:09:49] Christina: It’s usually, it. It’s, it’s getting your tubes tied rather than a hysterectomy. Um, which, which is less invasive than that, but it’s still not great. [00:09:56] Brett: Yeah. Yeah, dude, seriously, [00:10:00] guys, it’s not that hard. Like it, it takes, you recover for like a week, but like everything was really fine for me after about three days. And, uh, uh, and it can, it can technically be reversed if you ever change your mind. So, and your insurance will cover it and you can, you can opt to be put under, but you can also do it totally awake with a doctor’s visit. [00:10:26] Brett: Just fucking do it. I think guys in their twenties should do it. [00:10:32] Christina: spay and new to your pets spay and new to your men. [00:10:34] Brett: Yeah, totally. We have enough kids in the world. We really do. You don’t, you don’t need many mes running around. Um, so anyway, is that, is that your mental health [00:10:48] Christina: that’s my mental health update. Yeah. [00:10:50] Brett: All right. I, um, I am, I’m doing pretty well. I’m having a super A D H D day today. Um, like I have [00:11:00] a few like high pressure tasks that are due on Wednesday and I am sitting here feeling bored, which is like, To, for me, that’s a sign that my A D H D has taken over. [00:11:15] Brett: When like, I know there’s shit that needs to be done. There are fires burning behind me and I’m like, oh, I’m so bored. What, what could I, what can I do? Um, so I’m working on that. Uh, the microdosing is going well. I have found, um, tolerance to be an issue, uh, where 200 milligrams was. Was really like doing it for me. [00:11:43] Brett: Um, I was feeling like attentive and creative and, and things were going well. Now it takes like 400 and it’s only been a week. Um, it’s not, it, the tolerance builds up fast. So you have to take breaks, you have to, [00:12:00] like, one recommendation I saw said three days on, two days off. And my brain is like, but it’s working. [00:12:07] Brett: Why would I stop? And, um, so I’m trying to like, I’m trying to convince myself that it’s worth taking a couple days off, maybe even a week off, uh, to try to prevent this tolerance from building up. But in general, man, it is, it has totally been the answer for me. I’m very, I’m very excited about microdosing. [00:12:28] Brett: Um, [00:12:29] Christina: That’s awesome. I was talking, I was talking to a friend last night, um, about how she’s been doing, and I didn’t know this, but she’s been doing, um, ketamine therapy for the last two years and it’s really, really helped her. And that’s reinforced my, like, resolve to actually start doing that. [00:12:45] Christina: Sorry, go on. [00:12:46] Brett: Yeah. No, I highly recommend it. Um, I’ve heard from, because I’ve been pretty open and public about it, I’ve heard from, uh, a bunch of people, about half of them sharing their own stories, um, [00:13:00] about, um, like weekend retreats followed by a microdosing schedule and how beneficial that’s been. Um, and then about half of them just saying, I’ve heard so many good things. [00:13:14] Brett: I just wanted to like, get more about your story and, and what’s working for you before I go out and try this. And most of the people who are curious about it have never tripped before in their lives. Like they have no. No foundation for understanding of, uh, psychoactives and, and hallucinogens, um, which I did going into it. [00:13:38] Brett: Um, but, but those people, uh, understandably are, uh, they don’t have a clue. They don’t, they don’t know what it’s like to, to trip, to have your, your mind like open like that. Uh, so honestly, I would recommend [00:14:00] to anyone curious about microdosing that you, that you full dose once and understand like what the drug you’re, you’re looking at can-do. [00:14:11] Brett: And it’s like full potential before you start, like just teasing it with the microdose. Um, but anyway, [00:14:19] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I was gonna say, I’ve never done any sort of hallucinogen, so I would, yeah, my whole thing is like, I’ve like, wanted to go, I’ve wanted to try it, but I’m like, I would need to be in a guided experience. Um, and, and [00:14:33] Brett: Oh, oh, [00:14:34] Christina: by that. [00:14:34] Brett: I recommend the guided experience, like, it is, it is like a hair trigger to have a bad trip. Like you can have a real bad, you can still come out of it with the benefits of like, if you’re working on quitting drinking or changing habits or, or, you know, um, improve, uh, helping depression. Like even a bad trip can help you get there. [00:14:57] Brett: But the nice thing about a retreat is they [00:15:00] really focus on an intention going in and they provide you with a really safe space that, that is more likely to give you a good experience with it. Um, so I do, I do recommend at the very least, having a guide, if not a full retreat. [00:15:19] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, that, that, that’s, that’s what I would do because, um, I just. A, I wouldn’t necessarily know like, am I taking the right amount or like, what, what are you picking up on? What are you not Like, it was just, it, it would be like when I went skydiving, like just go with someone else. [00:15:36] Brett: for sure. [00:15:36] Christina: like be tethered. [00:15:37] Christina: Have someone else tethered to you, like Yeah, [00:15:41] Brett: Yeah. I can’t imagine going skydiving without a guide, at least the first time. [00:15:46] Christina: totally. [00:15:47] Brett: Um, there’re even, there are even studies showing M D M A as a treatment for depression. Um, and honestly, like my experience with [00:16:00] recreational ecstasy, um, like it’s, it’s a blast. Like the drug itself is amazing. The come down is scary. [00:16:09] Christina: right. And my experience with with recreational is that it had no effect on me whatsoever. [00:16:15] Brett: what? Oh, that sucks. I’m so sorry cuz it is so much [00:16:19] Christina: Right. Well, that’s what everybody told me and I tried multiple times. [00:16:24] Brett: Really? So it wasn’t just one bunk batch, you’re just like immune to [00:16:28] Christina: Immune. I’m just immune to it. [00:16:30] Brett: Wow. That sucks. [00:16:31] Christina: like the same thing with cocaine. I’m just immune. [00:16:33] Brett: Oh, that [00:16:34] Christina: It really [00:16:35] Brett: so sorry for you. I, I know drugs are bad. I know, but oh my God, I love drugs. [00:16:44] Christina: Okay. Should we go into, uh, should we go into our next topic before we talk about, uh, and we, we don’t wanna talk about any of our sponsors right now, right after that, [00:16:52] All Tuckered Out [00:16:52] Brett: no, we should give it, we, we need a buffer. So, so let’s talk about this big media news. [00:17:00] Tell us what’s happening in the world of media. [00:17:02] Christina: Well, okay. So again, we’re recording this on a Monday morning and, um, the, the, the top host of both Fox News and CNN n are out. Uh, Tucker Carlson is gone from Fox News. [00:17:15] Brett: Uh, according to the press release, they agreed to part ways, but I really don’t feel like it was voluntary on Tucker’s [00:17:21] Christina: No, no, no. They had to pay out his contract, I’m sure. Uh, this was not a Bill O’Reilly’s situation where they, they’d paid out, you know, over the years, many, many, many millions of dollars on Bill’s behalf because of, of his weird sex pervert stuff. Um, and, uh, and then they fired him finally. This, I’m sure they had to pay out the remainder of Tucker’s contract, which was probably a lot of money. [00:17:45] Christina: But they have agreed to part ways. Um, they’re losing their number one host far and away. I mean, he’s one of the top rated programs on all of cable, let alone cable news. Uh [00:17:57] Brett: the most dangerous program on [00:18:00] Fox. So losing them is, is kind of a net benefit for, for society. But [00:18:05] Christina: this is a, this is a positive, to be clear. Um, I’m already seeing people try to like, Downgrade this be like, oh, well he’ll just go to newsmax. And I’m like, okay, first of all, newsmax doesn’t have Tucker money. Second of all, newsmax doesn’t have Fox reach and the people who watch Fox News don’t know how to use the internet well enough to watch newsmax. [00:18:24] Christina: So it doesn’t matter. Like cuz cuz they don’t have the distribution. It’s like o a n, like who cares? Um, I’m not saying that it’s not a potential problem, but it’s, it’s not the same thing. Um, you know, in a different world where cable television were still relevant, it could be a concern that they might have a decade to catch up and then take over. [00:18:43] Christina: But like in a decade, cable news is not going to exist. So I don’t, you know, again, it’s just like whatever. Um, no, but that’s massive. Um, uh, the, the underlying implication there is that this is because of the Dominion lawsuit. Um, and, uh, dominion and, and Fox, um, settled, [00:19:00] um, over, uh, libel claims and Fox agreed to pay Dominion 737 million, um, which is, uh, Um, less than what they were trying to go for, would’ve gone for in a lawsuit. [00:19:11] Christina: And a lot of people were angry on the internet about that settlement. I, from the get go, I’ve, I’ve said this is going to have a substantial impact on the network and is going to like, cause actual change to happen. And people are like, oh no, it won’t. They’ve just been, they got off easy. No, you don’t lose 25% of your cash and equivalence position in one lawsuit and still have others. [00:19:34] Christina: You have to settle and not have to make substantial changes. Um, especially with the discovery that had come out. Um, and, and Tucker’s discovery, even though he, you know, um, Ebola host, he probably did the, the best job of not directly libeling any company while he was on air. Uh, he certainly, um, was allowing. [00:19:59] Christina: You know, [00:20:00] uh, wasn’t speaking out. I mean, he was speaking out, but he, he also wasn’t speaking out like the, the, the behind the scenes emails were fascinating because it, he made it clear that he can’t stand Trump, that he thinks a lot of the people he works with are idiots. Uh, [00:20:11] Brett: Lindela is insane. [00:20:12] Christina: that, that he, that he thinks their viewership are idiots. [00:20:16] Christina: Um, and, and so there was nothing but disdain for all of those things. Um, but, uh, you know, um, he’s also, uh, would bring on people who would potentially say really crazy things, not push back. So, so he’s gone. I don’t know how Maria, um, uh, Baro still has a job. She needs [00:20:36] Brett: Right. Oh my God. [00:20:38] Christina: She’s the worst, and I’ve always disliked her. [00:20:41] Christina: So, um, like even before she moved to Fox. So [00:20:45] Brett: Yeah, [00:20:45] Christina: personally, I’m like, she’s, she’s awful. [00:20:47] Brett: She’s [00:20:48] Christina: She’s awful. Janine Perro needs to be gone. Like, I don’t know how that those people are still employed. I have a feeling the other shoe will drop with them, but then over on cnn, which is having a hell of a [00:21:00] time under, its his new president, um, ever since Jeff Zucker was, was, was fired under, I’m gonna be honest, I think pretty shitty circumstances. [00:21:09] Christina: I, I, I don’t think it was fireable. Everyone knew, literally everyone knew that he and, and his subordinate, um, who didn’t even really necessarily like whatever. Everyone knew they’d been in a relationship for many, many years. Like I knew, like everyone knew. It seemed to me like a complete and utter like, just, uh, facade to get rid of him in, in that way. [00:21:31] Christina: Um, but, but Chris, like the new guy, he’s been having a hard time. He created this CNN morning show, which has been getting terrible ratings. And it’s hosted by, um, uh, Don Lemon and, um, two other, um, um, p uh, uh, poppy Harlow and, uh, Caitlin, I can’t think of her last name. Uh, and, uh, Don Lemon’s out. Don Lemon has been fired. [00:21:55] Christina: Um, after this morning, um, a couple of months ago, [00:22:00] speaking of, uh, our earlier discussion about like ageism, uh, he made some really shitty comments on the air about Nikki Haley and saying that she didn’t have it anymore cuz she’s 51 and kind of implied that she was too old to run for president and, and shouldn’t be like acting like [00:22:16] Brett: in an era when the two prime primary, uh, contenders are both in their fucking eighties. Yeah. [00:22:24] Christina: Yeah, 100%. When you literally have like men in their seventies, like running for, you know, second terms, like, uh, our, you have a, you know, our president, like, let’s just be completely honest, doesn’t seem to have all of his mental faculties. [00:22:38] Brett: Fair. Fair. [00:22:39] Christina: it, like it’s probably better than Reagan was. [00:22:41] Christina: But we also know that Reagan like had Alzheimer’s, like, while he was in office. So I don’t know if the bar’s super high there to be really honest with you. Um, and, uh, you know, like, you know, it was, it was a shitty thing to say because there’s nothing wrong. Like you can have problems with Nikki Hilly’s, um, politics, but a, i, I think she looks great. [00:22:59] Christina: I [00:23:00] don’t [00:23:00] Brett: Yeah. She does. [00:23:01] Christina: honestly, and, and B, like 51. Is really fucking young for a presidential like candidate. Like, let’s not, like, let’s not even talk about like how old Hillary was when she was running. You know what I mean? Like, like, and I get it. Hillary’s never been hot in her life, so she’s never gonna be part of that conversation, which is sexism for a whole other reason, but whatever. [00:23:21] Christina: It is what it is. She’s never been the hot girl. That’s fine. Um, Nikki Haley, like has, it’s an, is an attractive woman, but it was a shitty statement. And then Variety, I think it was, came out with a really damning expose a few weeks ago detailing his history with women at CNN over the last 17 years as well as with other people. [00:23:42] Christina: And just, he seems like he’s a diva nightmare to work with. I will say I have been on, um, air with Don Lemon at least a dozen times. He was always very nice to me, but I never worked with him. Um, but, but, but I will say like of the hosts that I interacted with a lot on cnn, when I used to go on CNN n a lot, he [00:24:00] was always very kind to me. [00:24:01] Christina: So, You know, um, uh, I can’t speak to the, any of the rest of it, but I also don’t doubt the reporting. Um, and so I, I have a, but my, my, my gut on that is that, um, they are using the Dominion lawsuit again as cover to be able to fire him because they might have had a difficult time firing him otherwise, but now they can say, okay, we could potentially have liability issues because of his tendency to kind of go off on the air. [00:24:32] Christina: And now [00:24:33] Brett: despite belonging to two protected categories. [00:24:37] Christina: precisely, despite Right, be because, well, that, because that’s a difficult thing with, with Don Lemon and, and, and, and it, and it should be to be clear, if, if you are part of two protected categories, it should be harder for people to fire you, in my opinion. Um, but uh, that doesn’t mean that it’s, that it’s impossible, and it doesn’t mean, especially in a business like television, which is. [00:24:56] Christina: All about trust and is all about like brands, you know, integrity [00:25:00] and other things. Like, and also it’s, it’s also about looks, it’s about a lot of really surface things that people don’t like to admit, but like, that’s what, that’s what the business is about. Um, it’s one of the reasons why, like me doing on air stuff, like I, I don’t go on TV anymore, but, you know, I, I hear things like, it’s in my great advantage to look as young as possible. [00:25:21] Christina: Like, [00:25:21] Brett: Sure. [00:25:22] Christina: no, but like genuinely, like I, you know what I mean? Like, I can’t afford to look old or tired or aging. Like you can’t. So, um, in this case, I think that the dominion, this is just trickle down from that because CNN is like, okay, we can now use this as potential. You know, this and all the other things can be like, okay, he’s now, he’s a liability for the network. [00:25:47] Christina: And, and as you mentioned, the Fox shareholder lawsuits, like that’s not even a, a, you know, a question mark thing. And, and, um, the, like, that, that becomes like a, cuz that, that’s a genuine concern. I [00:26:00] think liability now for, for, for these, um, networks, which is honestly, I think the best case scenario from all of this. [00:26:06] Christina: Again, a lot of people in my opinion, and I’ll stop talking about this in a second, we can talk about tv, but a lot of people were really pissy about dominion settling. And I think that that was really misguided on two levels. One, a lot of the discovery already got out and was very damning and that was good. [00:26:23] Christina: Two, even though in this case I totally thought the dominion had a really, really strong case. I personally was really worried about the precedent that would be set. If slash when Dominion was found, um, uh, the Fox was found, you know, um, libelous in that case, because I think that First Amendment protections in this country, especially against the news, are incredibly important. [00:26:50] Christina: And I would hate for something like this. And, and to be clear in this case, I absolutely do believe that Dominion had a point. I think I’m somebody who is very against most libel cases against news [00:27:00] organizations. I think the bar has to be exceedingly high because otherwise you cannot do what we do. And, and if you look at how the libel situation works in, in other countries, they cannot, they do not have the freedoms that we have and, and they’re reporting this not as good as a result. [00:27:14] Christina: It’s just not. Um, but in my opinion, just looking at, at like what the facts were as we saw them, I was like, okay, if there’s ever been a case of libel actually happening, this is an instance. And I was very worried about the precedent that would be set. I. If, you know, the court found in, um, in dominion’s favor because I, it was one of those things where you, you worry could a New York Times versus Sullivan thing could, could something like that be unset and that that would be a disaster for, for, for, for the press and for freedom of the press. [00:27:49] Christina: So I think, sorry, go on. [00:27:50] Brett: No, somatic has said that they won’t settle for less than Dominion, got 737 million. Um, [00:28:00] which means because their, uh, their value, their valuation is lower than Dominions, uh, that the settlement would be like the ratio would be off and it would almost be a benefit to Fox to go to trial. Um, do you think that that is a danger, uh, in the way that Dominion was? [00:28:26] Christina: I don’t think it is in the same way, but I do think it is a danger. I’ll also say, and I’m not a lawyer, but just watching these things, that feels like a bluff to me to be like, we won’t settle for any less. I feel like if somebody comes with a really good offer, especially with the amount of billable hours and things they’ve had, at a certain point, if you don’t take it, it looks really bad. [00:28:45] Christina: Especially because I don’t think, and again, not to say that the case isn’t really strong. But Smart Matic wasn’t the name that you heard all the time. Like I think the reason that it was a slam dunk for Dominion was because most of us had never heard of that company before, and then all of a sudden [00:29:00] we heard it and we heard it in a really negative way. [00:29:02] Christina: Where I think you can draw a direct parallel to there being like immeasurable and demonstrable like impact damages. Like I think you can do it. I don’t know if you can make the same argument Formatic. I don’t. I, I honestly don’t. And so I think that would be a gamble and I think they’d be stupid to not settle for 500 million or 350 million like I think they would be. [00:29:22] Christina: So I think we’ll see. But I do, I do have that concern. Um, but um, I think that so far anyway, this has been the best possible scenario because we don’t have the precedent set to potentially like, Dis, you know, to, to, uh, potentially like, you know, unth thwart no New York Times versus Sullivan. Um, but we also are seeing very real impact on the business, on the news business, uh, which is what you want, right? [00:29:51] Christina: This was a big enough judge, this was a big enough settlement. It’s not like they can just come back from this. It’s 25% of their cash and equivalence is the amount of money they’ve [00:30:00] had to pay. Like they had to finance this in very specific ways to even, you know, be able to pay this off. Like, this is not a small thing. [00:30:07] Christina: I could see Dominion potentially doing like, and not Dominion Smart Medic. Maybe they would get away with their, um, you know, their, their, their stance. Maybe they could wiggle room if it was like maybe a stock in cash thing. Like I could see that as, as being maybe, you know, part of it being like, oh, well, we’ll, we’ll get a certain amount of equity or, or stock grants or something else. [00:30:27] Christina: I, I, I don’t know how that would work, but, um, It really did impact them significantly in the pocket. And now as we’re seeing, it’s having, uh, a very significant impact on, um, on their talent and on their programming. So I think that’s a win for democracy and for like fresh freedoms for all of it. [00:30:48] Brett: Do you wanna hear my amazing segue into our [00:30:51] Christina: Yes, I do. [00:30:52] Sponsor: Factor [00:30:52] Brett: So Dominion really made a meal out of Fox News. [00:30:56] Christina: Woo. Yes. [00:30:57] Brett: And this episode is brought to you by [00:31:00] Factor This spring you need nutri nutritious, convenient meals to energize you for warmer active days and to keep you on track for reaching your goals. Factor. [00:31:11] Brett: America’s number one, ready to eat meal kit can help you fuel up fast. With ready to eat meals delivered straight to your door. You’ll save time, eat well, and tackle everything on your to-do list. Too busy to cook this spring with Factor. Skip the trip to the grocery store and skip the chopping. Prepping, and cleaning up too. [00:31:31] Brett: Factors fresh. Never frozen. Meals are ready in just two minutes, so all you have to do is heat and enjoy and then get back outside and soak up the warmer weather. Uh, factor offers delicious flavor packed options on the menu each week to fit a variety of lifestyles from keto to calorie, smart, vegan, and veggie and protein plus, prepared by chefs and approved by dieticians. [00:31:57] Brett: Each meal has all of the ingredients you need to [00:32:00] feel satisfied all day long while meeting your goals. As part of this sponsorship factor, sent me a week of free, of free meals and I, when they asked for my meal preferences, I had to list that I’m vegetarian, dairy free, so kind of vegan and gluten free. [00:32:20] Brett: And I was like, when I go to most meal kit, uh, uh, services, they will offer all of those things individually. [00:32:30] Christina: Right, but not all together. [00:32:31] Brett: But to combine them, you’re left with very few options. And so I, I punched those in and I got six meals in the, in the mail, um, that, that were delicious. And, uh, and honestly one of their servings lasted me for two meals. [00:32:48] Brett: Uh, so I still haven’t even gone through my week of free meals at this point. And they came with seven smoothies. And the smoothies all have four grams of protein and four grams of fiber in [00:33:00] every bottle. So that’s like a whole lunch for me right there. Um, With 34 plus chef repair, dietician approved weekly options, there’s always something new to try. [00:33:11] Brett: Plus, you can round out your meal and replenish your snack supply with an assortment of 45 plus add-ons, including breakfast items like egg bites, smoothies, and more. With factor. You can rest assured you’re making a sustainable choice. They offer 100% delivery, 100% of their delivery emissions to your door are covered. [00:33:32] Brett: Source 100% renewable electricity for production sites and offices and feature sustainably source seafood in their meals. Head to Factor meals.com/ Overtired 50 and use the code Overtired 50 to get 50% off your first box. That’s code Overtired fifty@factormeals.com slash Overtired 50 [00:34:00] to get 50% off your first box. [00:34:03] Brett: I, uh, I, I’m impressed I that, that week of free meals really, cuz I’ve done, I’ve done Green Chef and I’ve done, uh, HelloFresh and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve done others like the fact that they’re never frozen. They show up [00:34:21] Christina: I was gonna, I was gonna say, this is what appeals to me. Um, I’m, I’m, um, I’m sad now that I didn’t like, fill out the form, that I didn’t like pay attention [00:34:28] Brett: You didn’t do it. [00:34:29] Christina: I didn’t do it. No, but, but because the, this is the thing that appeals to me, like the frozen meals. Like it’s not, it’s not, [00:34:36] Brett: they’re never as good. [00:34:38] Christina: yeah, I’m not, and again, I’m like, I’m not opposed to that, but like, in theory. [00:34:41] Christina: But it’s just, yeah, they’re never as good. And then, I’ll be honest with you, the meal kits, that’s, that’s too much effort. [00:34:47] Brett: That’s paying, that’s paying somebody else to put you to work. [00:34:50] Christina: Exactly. Right. You know, that, that, I mean, you know, that’s, that’s like the blue apron. Like you have like the single egg, like in like the little cute container with all the plastic and stuff. [00:34:58] Christina: And again, that’s fine. But again, like if I’m [00:35:00] ordering these meal plans, it’s because I don’t have like the, the talent to put these things together. Like shopping is not the problem. I could just order food directly from a delivery like grocery store or go to the grocery store myself. It’s, it, it is the putting it all together part that for me is a challenge, um, as with a, a cooking challenge person and an A D H D time management challenge person. [00:35:23] Christina: So I, I like this, that they’re like not frozen, that they’re refrigerated, ready for you to like, you know, heat and, and do, which, which I think is really nice. And it is really great to know that, um, they were able to get you combo meals for all those different dietary concerns. Like that’s actually very impressive because you’re like, I think about you, like, you’re like the nightmare person, like on the airplane, you know what I mean? [00:35:45] Christina: They’re like, okay, let, let, let’s just get him the bland meal. You know what I mean? [00:35:50] Brett: Let’s make that boy a smoothie. Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, yeah, I, uh, I, I like to cook and I’m, I’m a good [00:36:00] cook, but if I have to do half an hour of meal prep anyway. I don’t, I might as well just go to the grocery store as well and get, and get the ingredients that I trust. Um, and, and I, that’s fine and I, I’m happy to do that. [00:36:15] Brett: But having a meal in the fridge that on a night, I’ve had a long day of work and I just want to eat so I can get on with my evening, having something that takes two minutes in the microwave and doesn’t taste like a frozen meal is [00:36:31] Christina: not Because it’s not because it, because it is actually frustrated with player. I really like that. That’s awesome. [00:36:35] Brett: that was a huge value add for that sponsor, Reid, we [00:36:38] Promo Swap: iOS Today [00:36:38] Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re welcome. Factor, uh, this, uh, we are also, we’re doing an episode swap, uh, sponsor swap this week with iOS today. And I love this because this is hosted by my good friend Micah Sergeant. [00:36:51] Christina: Um, and you can, so on this show, we’re obviously, um, iOS users, uh, Mac users, um, but if you wanna get the most from your [00:37:00] iPhone, your iPad, your Apple Watch and your Apple tv, then you wanna join, uh, my pal Micah Sergeant, who is the host of iOS today, along with my other friend, Rosemary Orchard, who I know you know as well, Brett. [00:37:11] Christina: And she’s, she’s fantastic. Every week they highlight, uh, tips and tricks and hidden features inside your iOS devices. Plus they cover the latest news and they try out the best accessories. So you can follow and subscribe to iOS today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify pockets, or wherever you listen to your pocket, uh, to your podcasts. [00:37:29] Christina: Um, Rosemary and Micah are great, and this is one of those podcasts I really do like because even though I consider myself, I’m probably not their target audience, to be honest, cuz I’m such a power user. I still like, learn about things and can get trip, uh, tips and tricks or can just, it’s kinda like gratitude, but a podcast, you know, in, in, in a lot of ways for me. [00:37:49] Christina: Cuz I’m like, oh, okay, I’m, cuz I’m no longer as plugged into the, the, um, iOS release cycle as I used to be, um, a as I was for many, many years. And so I, I like [00:38:00] iOS today a lot, but it’s, it’s a, it’s a really great podcast for anybody who’s doing things, uh, within iOS, wants to keep up with the latest, uh, news or find out about great apps and tips and tricks. [00:38:09] Christina: Good stuff. [00:38:10] Single Drunk Female [00:38:10] Brett: Awesome. All right. So, um, have you been watching the Hulu show? Single, drunk Female? [00:38:20] Christina: Yes. Um, so frequent listeners will know that this was both Brett and I like one of our favorite shows last year, at least. It was one of my favorite shows last year. Um, I think I was the one who discovered it first and I turned you onto it. Cuz I, I wanted your take cuz I thought you would really like it. [00:38:35] Christina: I thought that it, it, it, I still think that the cast is incredible. The, the, uh, star, uh, Sophia, uh, Sophia Delia Black, um, who was on, um, a sitcom I, I loved called the Mick. She’s fantastic. She’s a star and I stand by that. She’s. An absolute star. Um, and, um, the second season is out now. It’s, it airs on Freeform. [00:38:58] Christina: Um, but they put the [00:39:00] whole thing on Hulu. So the entire season is, uh, available on Hulu now. And then they’re airing like two episodes a week on freeform, whereas last year it was like a week by week basis on both. Um, and so I’ve watched, I binged it like in one sitting. Um, I would love your take on, on this season, what you’ve seen of it so far. [00:39:20] Brett: So I, I’m on, I think, I think we just finished episode four. [00:39:26] Christina: Okay. [00:39:27] Brett: And like the, so in the first season she gets sober. Um, in the second season she’s living sober and she’s, she’s navigating the world as a relatively newly sober person. Um, which I, I’ve, I’ve been there, I’ve done that, and I, I relate to all of the struggles she has. [00:39:51] Brett: Like, uh, she’s on a date with a guy and the waiter brings wine, which for most people is just a normal [00:40:00] part of life. But for her is like this, oh shit, what do I do [00:40:03] Christina: Right. It’s like this existential, how do I explain, like what do I [00:40:06] Brett: And, and her reaction is to lie and say she’s on antibiotics but not sick. Like, ah, she’s on like day four of antibiotics and she’s gonna see it through. [00:40:18] Brett: And she has this whole like, just spews out of her, this whole story about how, uh, this time it’s really important to her that she sees her course of antibiotics through and she can’t drink as a result. Um, and she has to go back to him a, a day or two later and be like, okay, so I lied. Here’s the real story. [00:40:37] Brett: And, and he’s totally cool with it, as I knew he would be like, but for her, like this need to, it was, it was, I I deeply related to that, that moment of panic. The thing that, okay, the thing the, the alcoholism and the recovery thing is, is fascinating. One of the things that. [00:41:00] That fascinates me is she’s gorgeous as, as a human being. [00:41:06] Brett: She is gorgeous and they dress her down for her role, uh, to the point where she’s, she’s almost like it would be if it were, uh, one of those movies where they like, take the glasses off the nerd and like she would, she’s ripe for that, the way they dress her down. And, and I, I kind of appreciate that. [00:41:29] Christina: Yeah, they’ve carried Russell on Felicity her, like they had to do the same thing to carry Russell on Felicity. They actually, JJ Abrams even said that when she came in. They were like, oh, we can’t cast you. You’re too pretty. And, and, uh, because for this character, you’re, you’re way too pretty. [00:41:42] Christina: And, and they, they had to like, dress her and, and like hide the prettiness. They even cut her hair after, after the first season. Uh, Ru ruined the show. Um, uh, but, but yes, this is that. I, I find that interesting too. They definitely. But even doing that, like you said, [00:42:00] it’s right for the Yeah, take the glasses off, like, like clean up the hair, you know, do a little makeup and, and she’s great. [00:42:06] Christina: Um, there’s this, and I don’t know if it’s in one of the episodes you saw, but there’s this, this flashback thing with her mom, and she’s like, oh, you know, and you look so beautiful without any makeup on. And she’s like, I’m wearing so much makeup. [00:42:16] Brett: Yeah, I remember that. [00:42:18] Christina: Um, which is great. [00:42:19] Brett: the story of her mother is like, her mother’s not a good person. Um, she’s never presented as a good person, but the episode we just watched her mother. So the fourth step in a 12 step program is when you list out all of your resentments. And hers had apparently taken 50 pages of a notebook and her mother reads it. [00:42:43] Brett: Invades her privacy, reads her fourth step and takes it personally. Like the whole point of the fourth step is to like, get it out, put it down on paper, and then let it go. Like all of all of all of these things that are mostly a product of your [00:43:00] own neurosis, you just put ’em down and you let ’em go and they should never be read. [00:43:05] Brett: Uh, and her mother reads them, holds it against her to the, to the extent that she fucking moves out, uh, which is I think, the only healthy response to that. [00:43:17] Christina: 100%. And, and then between all of this, um, for, um, for real life reasons, uh, I think because, uh, the actress got another show, the woman who had played her sponsor, this is another kind of ongoing thing, is that she has this year sober. Um, what happened at the end of the last season was that her, her estranged best friend, who she’s friends with again, got married to this guy and then immediately decided that she realized she did not wanna get married and, and shows up at, um, um, Sam’s house and, um, they’re kind of reconnecting. [00:43:51] Christina: Um, and, uh, but she had a sponsor who she met, like when she started getting sober and they developed a really strong bond. And her sponsor in the second season [00:44:00] is gone to Maine because she’s pregnant. She, uh, her, uh, she and her wife, um, have decided to have a baby and she’s pregnant and is now no longer able to be Sam’s sponsor. [00:44:09] Christina: And so this is all happening in a place where Sam is not really having like her strong support system. And then the guy that she’d been dating or been building towards dating in the first season, um, and they finally started to date and then he fell off the wagon, um, he’s not really as, as active in her life in the second season. [00:44:30] Christina: So, um, I thought that fourth episode was actually, so I, cause I watched the whole thing. I thought that that was one of the best ones. Um, and, and, and again, yeah, you’re right. The way that they play her mother, who’s played by Ally Sheti is not represented as like a, a great person. She’s, she’s complicated. [00:44:46] Christina: Like she definitely loves her daughter, but also is very judgmental of her daughter and of herself. You know, she’s, she’s, you, you, you can under, you can kind of see in the relationship, and again, it’s not a blame thing because it’s not like the mother caused her to be an [00:45:00] alcoholic. The alcoholism is, is, you know, based on, I, I think something biochemically that, that is within some people’s brains, right? [00:45:06] Christina: Because there’s some people who drink all the time and are, don’t have that propensity and then other [00:45:09] Brett: fact that her, the fact that her mother’s reaction to reading her forcep was to grab a bottle of wine is telling [00:45:16] Christina: It, it, it is, but it’s also, I think, you know, to the point is that you can kind of understand like, Some of the things like, not that would lead her to drink, but that would put her in a position where, like growing up in that environment where like she would maybe start to see alcohol as an escape from the pressures that, that her mom would have on her. [00:45:36] Christina: Um, I will say this, I watched the whole season. I don’t think it’s as good as the first season. Um, I don’t think it’s bad at all, but I don’t, I didn’t like it as much as I liked the first season. And I think it was, and a lot of shows do this, and this is n normally completely fine, but it’s, it’s try to become more of an ensemble show and focus more on some of the lives of some of the other [00:46:00] characters, which I get you need to do that. [00:46:02] Christina: But in my opinion, the strongest part of the show is Sophia Delia Black, like she is, and, and Sam, like I think that that story and that actress is such like she’s the center and the strongest part of that show. And I wonder if they didn’t maybe like, Expand outside of, you know, her a little bit too much. [00:46:25] Christina: Like that was, that’s, that was kinda my only kind of feedback. [00:46:28] Brett: Can I say I love the additional focus on her fat [00:46:32] Christina: Yes. That Lily may Hern. I agree with that. I think she’s the other best part of the show. Like I think she’s great and I would love to see more of her. [00:46:39] Brett: To have a secondary character who is fat, like not, not Hollywood, chubby, like actually fat, who has an active sex life, who has a real personality, who has a depth of character, um, serves both as like a friend, but as her [00:47:00] own individual human being. I think that is great representation for real people. [00:47:06] Christina: who’s hot and who, to my knowledge, the weight thing has never even come up. Like, it’s never even been like she, [00:47:12] Brett: it’s never mentioned. [00:47:13] Christina: never mentioned and it’s never treated as like, oh, how great is it’s, it’s, no, it’s not. And it’s not, it like, like she, uh, the end of the first season, like, she meets this, this doctor or this hot guy, um, at, at a wedding, and he’s really into her and he’s the one who’s like pursuing her. [00:47:28] Christina: And then in the second season, they’re in a relationship. And, and we’re seeing how they’re trying to like, navigate those things together. And she’s the one who’s more ambivalent in some ways, which honestly, like, she’s a beautiful girl. And, and that is how that would really happen. But I really do appreciate that they don’t, um, like make it again this whole like, oh, you know, the, the fat girl is, is is finding a guy, you know, it’s not about [00:47:53] Brett: Lucky her. [00:47:55] Christina: her. You know, we’re gonna give her this shout out. No, it’s not like that at all. It’s not even mentioned. Right. And,[00:48:00] [00:48:00] Brett: Well, and they don’t pre, they don’t present her boyfriend as like a chubby chaser. He doesn’t fetishize her size in any way. He respects her like he’s in love with [00:48:10] Christina: And, and Right. Totally. And the thing is, is that, and the actress who’s very good, um, and, and I, and I think that she’s the second best actress on the show. Um, I, I, you know, she’s, she is very pretty, like, it’s funny, like they do the opposites, what they do with, um, Sophia De Black, like they really accentuate how attractive that actress is. [00:48:27] Christina: And again, I think she is a very pretty girl, but like, they go outta their way to really like do the makeup and the clothing, everything just right. Um, the same way that they have to kind of, um, underplay, um, the, the lead actresses beauty. And, and I think and look, that makes sense because for a show like this, like cuz cuz life is just easier on pretty people. [00:48:48] Christina: And, and it’s, it is and, and it’s just, it’s hard. [00:48:51] Brett: On Skinny White Girls. Sure. [00:48:52] Christina: mean, it’s, it, it look, it, it is. Um, and so it’s, uh, it’s hard to, uh, I [00:49:00] think, um, sell the whole, like, I’m starting over and I’m like hitting all these things, but I look like this. It’s like, well, yes, well, if you look like that, obviously things are going to come easier for you. [00:49:10] Christina: And so I think that they do the right thing in terms of, you know, the way they do her, her clothing and, and, and other styling. Although again, you can just tell she’s still a gorgeous girl. Um, no. So I like that aspect. There are just some other things I think that like, I don’t know. I also do miss the relationship with James, the, um, the guy that she had the friendship slash relationship with in the first season. [00:49:31] Brett: Oh yeah, I forgot. [00:49:33] Christina: yeah, like, like they, they, they, they bring that in a little bit more and they show his journey to recovery in the second season. And I do like watching his, his, um, um, journey. Um, his, his journey and what he does is a little bit different than some other things I. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s not that I, I don’t, I, it’s not that I mind like the focus on the other people. [00:49:52] Christina: I think it’s just like, these are 30 minute episodes, so that equivalently means 20 minutes. You’ve only got 10 episodes of content. Like, if this was a [00:50:00] longer show, like if this could be like Ted Lasso style where your episodes can be longer than like 20 minutes. Like if you could have like a 45 minute episode Right. [00:50:08] Christina: And still be considered a half hour and we could get to know these characters more, I think that would, like, that would, that I think would fit this show more. But because they have a, a broadcast deal, they can’t do that. So I, I, I, I feel like they’re really constrained honestly, by like, just the number of, of of minutes they have to tell all the stories. [00:50:28] Brett: I really appreciate shows that, take that challenge though. Like, so my attention span, a half hour show is a 20 minute show is great for my attention span. Um, I, uh, any hour long show drags for me and I start checking, I start checking the, the time remaining, uh, probably at about the 40 minute mark. Um, that said like, as a constraint to tell a story in half hour serial segments, [00:51:00] um, I think is, uh, a writing challenge that some shows really step up to. [00:51:06] Brett: And I feel like, I feel like single, single grown female does a pretty good job of [00:51:09] Christina: I think it does too. It’s just, it’s one of those rare cases. I’m similar to you where I rarely want a show to go longer, but in this case I do. Um, and, and I, and I, I feel like, I think that they, it is a good, no, it. [00:51:22] Brett: means they’re doing it right. [00:51:23] Christina: No, it is a good thing. I think, I don’t know, the, the first season to me was absolutely the best new show on TV last year, in my opinion. [00:51:30] Christina: Um, and I still really liked this season. I didn’t like it as much. I really, really hope that it is able to come back for a third. Um, uh, it’s very clear, the only reason it got a second was because it was very popular on Hulu. I hope that that continues and that they continue to promote it because it can’t be that expensive. [00:51:50] Christina: I think it’s a really important show. We don’t see shows showing up, talking about recovery and, and all the, of its iterations. Um, [00:52:00] uh, the, the, the mother characters play by Allie Sheie. She goes through some, some changes as the, as the season goes on, and I’m not, I’m not trying to spoil anything, but just like set you up for this. [00:52:10] Christina: Like, they also have her starting to, uh, uh, you know, look into attending Al-Anon. Um, [00:52:17] Brett: Yeah. That just happened. And the last one I watched, or it was suggested to [00:52:21] Christina: It was suggested. And, and that I think is honestly a, i I, that is one thing I did appreciate about the broadening of this season is focusing on, okay, it’s not just the person in recovery, it’s all the people in their life as well and what does it do to, to the family members. [00:52:35] Christina: And, um, even though like the, the mother is not a great person, like that I think is a story that is never told. Like I’ve never seen, like it’s always about the person who has the addiction. I’ve never seen any story focusing on like, what is it like for the people left behind? And that’s what I really appreciated about both seasons of this show is that it’s shown like the impact that her addiction has [00:53:00] had, not just on her, but on the other people in her life, her friends, her family, and, and that I think is, um, is incredibly powerful. [00:53:07] Christina: And this is the sort of TV that we need more of. And, and so I hope we get another season of it because I, I do think that I, I mean, I. And I’m not an addict, but I, but I, I live with one and, and I, you know, have friends who are, and like, I, I appreciate very much the way that this is being portrayed in a way that is not judgmental to anyone, but just seems like it to me anyway. [00:53:29] Christina: It rings very true. [00:53:30] Brett: It’s very hopeful. It’s, uh, it, it shows that recovery can happen [00:53:35] Christina: It does. [00:53:35] Brett: and that healing can happen and yeah, no, it’s a great [00:53:39] Christina: It’s a great show. It’s very funny. They have very funny people in it. Um, John Glasser, um, who, uh, uh, is, um, uh, from um, like he was on Delocated and um, uh, a couple of other, um, adult swim shows, um, makes a couple of other appearances as like her former boss, cuz [00:53:58] Brett: Oh dude. [00:54:00] From Parks and Rec. Yeah. [00:54:02] Christina: he, but he, but he was also on that, at that, that, that show on Adult Swim Delocated. [00:54:06] Brett: I never saw [00:54:07] Christina: Okay. Yeah, we played this guy, this family, like the Witness protection program. It was, it was, it was, it was a really bizarre show. It was, it was like the same type of thing as like the children’s hospital sort of shit. [00:54:15] Brett: I, I hate, I, I love him as an actor. I hate his character so much in this show, which is like, obviously the point of his character. But [00:54:26] Christina: Yeah. [00:54:27] Brett: he is so flawed, but like sympathetic like I, I feel for him, but at the same time I’m like, dude, [00:54:35] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, no. So yeah, so I definitely, I, I, um, I did, like I said, it was, and I might go back and watch the second time. My opinion might change in the second rewatch. Um, uh, but I, I definitely think people should watch the first season, watch the second season too. We needed to have a third. Um, and I’d like to hear your thoughts as, as you watch the rest of it. [00:54:55] Ted Lasso and Wrexham [00:54:55] Christina: Um, okay. Ted Lasso. I know that we’re like running out of time, but, yep.[00:55:00] [00:55:00] Brett: um, uh, all I have to say about Ted Lasso is, thus far, it’s the best season yet, and Ted Lasso is one of my favorite shows of all times. So, to tr to Trump the first two seasons, uh, it is a feat and, and they’re nailing [00:55:18] Christina: they are nailing it. [00:55:19] Brett: the fucking team hasn’t won a single game yet. [00:55:23] Christina: Yeah, [00:55:24] Brett: watching, you’re watching a show ostensibly about a soccer team that never wins a game. [00:55:29] Christina: totally. And, and, and, and no, and it, and it’s, um, you know, when it, it setting up, like the way they set up the first two seasons was just so good. Uh, and then you wonder like, okay, how are they going to end this out? And I think this is their last season. Like they haven’t officially confirmed that, but that, that feels like this is it for them. [00:55:46] Brett: It does feel like [00:55:47] Christina: And, um, this is I think another like great example Succession, which is my favorite show on tv. Uh, you know, it’s also ending this year after a fourth season. And I really do appreciate. [00:56:00] Like having an arc in mind and then keeping to the arc. Like, it, it sucks for people who love the show cause you’re like, man, you could have done more. [00:56:08] Christina: But I do really appreciate having an arc and then sticking with it. [00:56:11] Brett: the depth of these Ted Lasso characters, like every. Every, even every member of the team at this point, we have some backstory for, we have some connection to, and, and like Jamie Tart and who’s the guy who growls, I always forget his [00:56:30] Christina: Um, um, uh, yeah. Um, um, uh, well, it’s Brett Goldstein, but, um, uh, um, Roy? [00:56:36] Brett: right? Roy Kent. And, and Ted Lasso And Coach Beard. And, uh, what’s the, uh, Higgins, uh, like, and, and Rebecca, like all of these characters like you have this strong connection to, and they can make an episode focus on any one of these characters and I will care. [00:56:57] Christina: No, and that’s the thing. I mean, I have to say, like, this is [00:57:00] really one of those shows. Like I have to, I mean, um, Jasons Jacobs gets a lot of credit for the show as he should because, you know, he’s, he’s obviously the star and he’s done a lot of writing work. But this was a, you know, um, this is a Bill Lawrence, um, show and, um, if you ever watched any of his other shows, um, and I’ve been a big, big, big Bill Lawrence fan, um, basically forever. [00:57:20] Christina: This has the hallmarks of his shows, and I think this is one of his best. So he did Scrubs and he did Clone High, and he did, um, uh, um, actually worked on a, what was it, a, um, spin City and um, you know, has a history of like, uh, he did a, um, a cougar town. Um, and, uh, he’s a, this is I think, um, indicative of a lot of like some of his best writing things. [00:57:45] Christina: He, he’s really great at creating these shows with these like casts that feel like real people and that feel like real people, you know, and that you care about. And, and I think that this is one that like, Is is probably one of the most of any show I’ve seen. Like they’ve, other than like, you know, peaked the [00:58:00] Simpsons and maybe Parks and Recreation, like you really do feel like you know these people and you care about them. [00:58:06] Christina: Um, and, and then it’s just, it, it’s one of those rare shows, like it came out in this time and it wasn’t like written for the pandemic or anything, but it came out in this time when we were all like, didn’t have hope. And, and it was like this one, like, nice thing. And it’s been nice to kind of have this like very, very good show. [00:58:25] Christina: Like where, like the, the, the, the fundamental message of this is hopeful again, like, like single drunk fema. Like the, like the message is hopeful, you know, hope is the whole thing. [00:58:34] Brett: Speaking of hope and soccer, [00:58:37] Christina: Yes. [00:58:38] Brett: reim, uh, what was the, I can’t even remember the name of the show with Rob Mcleany. Was it just called Reim? [00:58:46] Christina: I think it might have just been that. Yeah. [00:58:48] Brett: Uh, the, the, the team that Rob Mcleany and Ryan Reynolds bought, um, Rex Am United, just got promoted from [00:59:00] their fifth tier, uh, league. Uh, they just got promoted. Paul Rudd showed up with Rob and Ryan to see the game, uh, or to see the, the, I I assume it was a game, um, that got them promoted to the next, uh, level. [00:59:21] Brett: And it wasn’t, this wasn’t part of the show. This was just side news. Uh, but amazing story after, after the, the trials and tribulations of the, the TV series. And I just imagined being at a soccer match, uh, a football match with Ryan Reynolds, Rob McEleney and Paul Rudd, and having it go well. Like that would be, that’s like [00:59:53] Christina: amazing. Right? [00:59:55] Brett: moment for me. [00:59:56] Christina: Totally, totally. Well, and I have to say, like, I thought the show was great and, and the [01:00:00] concept is good. And it is funny cuz like, um, you know, Ryan Reynolds, like he sold MIT mobile. Like he’s where everybody was like, he was like, yeah, he needs, needs money for the club. You know, [01:00:07] Brett: Right, right. It’s working out. That’s [01:00:10] Christina: now. [01:00:11] Christina: No, it’s great. Um, no, I, I, I, I love, I love that and I love that they got promoted, like that’s, And again, like it’s, it’s, the, the great thing about like TB is when it can like, make you interested in, in other parts of this, right? Because like, because I don’t give a shit about like soccer, football, whatever. [01:00:26] Christina: Like, I, I, I could care less. It is, it is not my country’s sport. Like in this country we care about women’s soccer a little bit and we care, like during the World Cup, like that’s the only time people in this country ever pay attention to the other football. Like, uh, because like our religion is actual football and I’m sorry, but, but it is the n l is actual [01:00:45] Brett: Absolutely. [01:00:46] Christina: Um, and it, it’s just that, that’s how it goes. So, um, yeah, I think Ted Lasso is great. Um, I, I’ll also say, um, I know that we need to get into our gratitude, but I will just do a shout out. I know that you didn’t like it or when you [01:01:00] tried, it’s just the l like commented, like all the people are terrible and I totally agree, but the final season of succession is some of the best TV I’ve ever seen. [01:01:09] Christina: Um, the third episode. Um, I don’t wanna spoil anything, um, even though at this point most people know what happened, but the third episode is genuinely one of the best episodes of television I’ve seen ever. And if succession sticks the landing, it will look, it’s gonna be a top 10 show regardless. But if it sticks this series finale landing and it’s looking like they will, like, I don’t wanna get too far ahead, but if it does, it’s gonna be like in that like upper tier, like greatest shows of all time list for me. [01:01:42] Brett: In completely other news, part party down. Got a whole [01:01:46] Christina: Yes it did. I love it. [01:01:48] Brett: It was so [01:01:49] Christina: It was so good. I missed Lizzie Kaplan, but I loved [01:01:51] Brett: I know, I, I, I want it, I want more. I hope it’s not done yet. [01:01:57] Christina: It’s so hard for them, right? It’s, it’s, it’s the [01:02:00] arrest development problem. Like, it’s like when you don’t have people under contract. Like, how do you get ’em all back together again? I mean, single drunk female had a similar problem and like, they lost, um, the actress who played, um, the, um, the sponsor because she got another show. [01:02:16] Christina: Like, it, it’s so hard with these streaming, it’s even harder with streaming shows because you don’t necessarily know how they’re gonna be. And so like, you can’t, you can’t sign people to like long contracts the same way. But I hope they’re able to get everybody back together from like some, uh, like just give us a reunion. [01:02:32] Christina: You know, give us like a two hour movie, right? Like, like that. Like that would be great. Like that. That way we can bring Lizzie Kaplan back. We can have the whole gang there. Like, [01:02:41] Brett: I do not know the actor’s name, but he was on, um, Silicon Valley and he plays the sci-fi, the hard sci-fi [01:02:50] Christina: Martin Star. Martin Star, [01:02:52] Brett: Martin Martin Star. [01:02:53] Christina: he was from Freaks and Geeks. He’s great. [01:02:55] Brett: yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. He deserves, he deserves Wibo credit [01:02:59] Christina: [01:03:00] Oh, I totally agree. No, he’s fantastic. And then, um, the, the, the Jimbo, um, I can’t remember his character’s name, but the actor’s name is Kyle something, but he, uh, um, he was on, um, he was on another show created by the creator party down called Veronica Mars, where [01:03:14] Brett: Oh my God. Yeah, that’s right. [01:03:16] Christina: And um, yeah, there are a lot of former Veronica Mars people, uh, in that universe. [01:03:21] Christina: And, um, anyway, I’ve always, I always loved him. He and Jane Lynch’s, um, dynamic together. It was always so great. [01:03:28] Brett: His, his, his band did a song called My Struggle, which is how mind comp is translated, and he talks about, uh, he, he was trying to talk about like being a Hollywood star, but he said like in the lyrics, he’s like, they give you a star and they put you on a train, and it was. Just straight up Nazi lyrics. [01:03:56] Brett: And then he’s wondering why he has a Nazi. It’s so, it’s [01:04:00] just fucking comedy gold. [01:04:01] Christina: So good. [01:04:02] Grapptitude [01:04:02] Brett: Um, should we do some gratitude? [01:04:05] Christina: let’s do some gratitude. [01:04:07] Brett: All right. I have two options that I’m still trying to narrow down. Do you have one you wanna start with? [01:04:15] Christina: Okay. So I’m trying to think, um, I’ve had one that I found the other day and I’m trying to find it now. Oh yeah. It’s called, um, uh, short Cat [01:04:27] Brett: Oh my God, yes. [01:04:29] Christina: I love Short Cat. Uh, short Cat is, uh, find it, it’s a, like a, they describe itself as a, as a universal, um, command palette for your Mac. And it basically lets you, uh, as, look, we’re big fans of the keyboard here at Overtired. [01:04:46] Christina: We’re big fans of, uh, you know, not having to use your mouse. And I like the mouse. And I like my, um, [01:04:51] Brett: I love my track [01:04:52] Christina: I, yeah, I, I was gonna say I love my magic track pad and I have a really nice mouse as well. Not opposed to that, but it is really nice to like, A lot of times, like you’re in the [01:05:00] zone, like being on your, um, uh, keyboard and so short cat indexes the, I’m reading from the website here cuz this is actually a good description. [01:05:08] Christina: Uh, also a plus for them, they have a very good website describing exactly what it does, is that it indexes your, your max user interface and then you can, um, it makes those options available to you in a powerful command pallet. So you can, you know, um, click on buttons, focus on text fields, and do other commands without having to use the mouse. [01:05:26] Christina: Um, and I really, really like it. I think it’s a, it works in your browser, it works with electron apps. Let’s use insertion menus. Um, it, it’s really, really good. Uh, you can, um, it’s, it’s available, uh, through Home Brew. So you just brew, install Short Cat and, um, you could also like download it off their website, uh, short cat.com, uh, dot app. [01:05:48] Christina: And I’m, I’m just a really, really big fan of this. Uh, I think it’s just a, a really, really good app. Um, and, uh, That, that that’s my tip. That, that’s my pick. I, I’ve been using this since [01:06:00] last year. I don’t remember when I discovered it. I guess I discovered it not long after it came out. Um, no, that’s not true. [01:06:04] Christina: It’s [01:06:05] Brett: Oh, it’s been out for a while. [01:06:06] Christina: Okay. It’s been out for a really long time. I didn’t discover it, I guess, until it had kind of been rewritten. So, yes. So last year, this is what it was last year, they, uh, released a first release of a from scratch rewrite. Um, and that came out in, in June of, of 2022. And that was, I think when I started using it. [01:06:23] Christina: And so, uh, but, but it goes all the way back to 2012. Um, so, um, great app [01:06:31] Brett: Yeah, it, it is. I’ve always been fascinated by it. I’ve never gotten into using it. Um, the app that filled my need was called Polero, um, which is available on Set app, and it gives you a command shift. P like you were in, you know, your favorite, i d e command shift P gives you access to anything that shows up in the menu. [01:06:57] Brett: Short Cat is great because it, it reads [01:07:00] all of the accessibility options for an app and, and like you said, can do, it can focus. Fields and, and click buttons that aren’t part of the menu. Uh, Pletcher just gives you, uh, pop-up access to any menu item, uh, which fits most of my needs. And I love it when I, when I can’t remember the shortcut for a menu item, I just hit command shift p in any app and, and I get access to the menu. [01:07:33] Brett: But yeah, shortcut has blown me away with its capabilities. It’s never become like, uh, uh, a muscle memory kind of shortcut for me, [01:07:45] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I don’t use it for everything, but I have it installed and it’s one of those things that like when I’ve needed something, like it’s one of those things that I like to be able to Oh, right, that’s right. I have this here and, and I can use this and, and I do appreciate that it works, you know, with so many different apps types, because some of [01:08:00] these things do have a hard time with the electron apps. [01:08:02] Christina: Um, and, and the fact that it works with them is great because that means that I can do it in one password and in BS code and in other electron apps that like, sorry, I know that a lot of people hate on Electron, but there are a lot of really good electron apps out there. So, um, we’ll put both Platero and, uh, short Cat in the show notes. [01:08:20] Christina: Um, do you, uh, do, do you know which one you wanna pick? Look, Jeff isn’t here, so you could technically pick both. [01:08:26] Brett: Um, do one for Jeff. Um, no, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go with, I’m gonna save this one for, uh, let me make a quick note that this is my next one, but for this week I’m gonna go with Net Newswire. Um, I, so. My site traffic over the last couple years has gone down and it’s gone down by, it’s gone from about 21,000 hits a week to [01:09:00] 8,000, which is significant. [01:09:02] Brett: And I was under the impression that the algorithm was doing me dirty, um, that people just weren’t getting their news the way they used to. And for the first time in a few months, um, I thought I’ll check my, well, actually, for the first time in a year, honestly, um, I thought I’ll check my subscriber stats cuz I use feed press for my r s s feeds, uh, which gives me stats on how many people are subscribed to my r s s feed. [01:09:37] Brett: Turns out my r s s feed had grown by more subscribers than I had lost in traffic. So, so right now I have 35,000 subscribers to my r s s feed. Um, and when I, I got a bunch of new followers on Macedon after my last post, and I was like, [01:10:00] just curious, uh, out of the, you know, multiple dozens of people who just followed me. [01:10:07] Brett: How did you find me? And they’re all, like, I read your blog through rss, RSS R s s, which is amazing. RSS is making a comeback after Google Reader, like, brought it to its knees for a [01:10:21] Christina: than a decade, more than a decade ago. Like Google killed, um, Google Reader, um, 11 years ago [01:10:26] Brett: Yeah. And, and now r s s [01:10:28] Christina: or 10 years ago. Sorry. It happened. It was, it was like, we’re coming up on like the, the 10th anniversary, I think, but [01:10:33] Brett: it’s for real. Back though. Um, I went into my reader stats and by far the most popular r s s. Reader that was giving me stats was Net Newswire. Um, and I personally, that’s what I use. Um, I am a fan of apps like Reed Kit and Reader, but Net Newswire once it was under new [01:11:00] management and I don’t remember who, Brent Simmons, [01:11:03] Christina: Sprint Simmons. Yeah. So, so, so, so he, he created it and then, um, he worked at a company called News Gator who took it over. And, and then, um, also the guy who created the, like the, the Windows version, which was like the Feed Demon, I think it was, was also part of News Gator. And then it kind of went away, and then he was able to buy back, like the name and, and the, the, you know, copyright or whatever. [01:11:27] Christina: And then he re-released it. Um, and it’s completely open source now, which is what’s brilliant. [01:11:32] Brett: Yeah. And it’s not the most full featured r s s app, but it does exactly what it needs to do. And it does it, it does it perfectly [01:11:42] Christina: No, I totally agree. Like I said, I like, I like some of the apps like Reader and Read Kit too. Read Kit has been around for a long time and I think they just recently released a new version and they’ve done some, some good stuff with it and, and, and Reader, um, is, is always had a really nice interface. [01:11:54] Christina: I [01:11:54] Brett: And it’s beautiful. Yeah. [01:11:56] Christina: use Feed Bin as my, um, like syncing service [01:12:00] and um, their web app is actually great. And so in some cases, you know, cuz like, as I’ve said many times, like, as much as I kind of hate this in some cases, like the web one and, and like the, the feed bin website is really good. But I totally agree with you, like Net Newswire is a great app. [01:12:15] Christina: It also is a great iOS app. Um, I primarily use it on Mac. Um, but, um, I, yeah, I totally agree. I think that it’s just, um, the fact that it’s still being kind of developed and, and that I I love that. I love that it’s on GitHub. I love that it’s open source. Like that to me really is, uh, I think like it represents the best of how kind of these indie apps can exist today. [01:12:39] Christina: Because unfortunately, like these are niche things. Like I’m glad that the traffic is coming back and that more people are getting into rss, especially for like your audience. But, but it is, you know, like not, uh, unfortunately, it, it, what sucks with Google reader now being dead for 10 years. I think it, July 1st is I think the cutoff date, but like [01:13:00] Google had announced that like March of 2020 of 2013. [01:13:04] Christina: And, and so we’re coming up in like 10 years without it. Um, is that you have a whole generation of users who don’t even really know, you know what I mean? And so in some cases they’re, they have to rediscover and like relearn, like, oh, You mean there’s this way I can subscribe to all my favorite feeds. [01:13:20] Brett: right. I think it’s time. I think it’s time for people to rediscover rss and like I said, obviously it is happening. Uh, but for anyone who has long depended on social media to surface articles of interest, dude, r s s gives you the ability when you read an article that you’re like, yes, I agree with this author. [01:13:45] Brett: They have provided me with very interesting information and news. You can follow them and you can have in one place all of the feeds that you personally trust and find of [01:14:00] interest. And you can have all of that surface using r s s. And it’s, it stands for really simple syndication, and it literally is, it’s just a way to follow news that you trust and that matters to you. [01:14:14] Brett: And every day you get a new menu of the latest articles, and it is way better than any quote unquote algorithm designed to put content in front of you. [01:14:26] Christina: I agree. The only one I miss from r s s services, I miss Fever. Fever was my [01:14:31] Brett: Oh my God. Yeah. [01:14:32] Christina: fever, was a self-hosted r s s client. And, and I actually moved away from Google Reader to using Fever [01:14:38] Brett: What happened to Sean Inman? Is he still [01:14:41] Christina: I, I don’t know, he, he’d started making games. I know his mom had been sick and, and then he, he’d switched his focus from like software to, to games. [01:14:49] Christina: Um, yeah, I just pulled up his website. Um, [01:14:52] Brett: Because he also did mint analytics, which was fantastic. [01:14:56] Christina: fantastic. And he did a, um, uh, what was it, Quip? Not [01:15:00] Quip, uh uh, quicks Quicks, which was great. And then, um, and he had, uh, he had like, um, what was it? Uh, I think it was like a shortwave or something, which was like a l shortener, shortened, something like that. [01:15:10] Christina: But he, he had a lot of things. Um, and so, uh, yeah, his last blog post was April, 2020. Um, and, and so, um, I, I, I don’t know what he’s up to. I hope he’s doing well because I, because I, he was a genius because his, his shit was like the best, and, and Fever was, was my favorite because what was great about Fever was that it was, it would basically, um, kind of rank, um, articles based on like how many times somebody else had linked to it, like within your feeds. [01:15:45] Christina: And so you kind of had like a, [01:15:46] Brett: Within your, within your chosen feeds, the articles that you wanted to read anyway, it could rank what was hot and what was not. And if you have a hundred feeds, you can’t keep up with those on a [01:16:00] day-to-day basis and fever like surface the content that was most important and it was brilliant. [01:16:05] Christina: It was brilliant. Yeah, I was gonna say it was, it was very similar to like, what, what, uh, what, uh, what was it, uh, um, nimble or whatever, like the, uh, the, um, the, the, the iOS, the kind kind of Twitter thing that a lot of people used to kind of keep track of, like what the top like, um, links shared across their followers were like, it was like that, but it was for rss it was great. [01:16:26] Christina: And, and I used that for a really long time. I had a, um, I had a single site, um, uh, app, um, for Fever back in the day. And, um, like, uh, I, I loved that, but it, um, yeah, I agree. Like rss, I will say this, the only thing I run into sometimes it’s gotten better, fortunately over the last couple of years, but there was a period of time and it’s still not great, where a lot of times, like by default, websites will hide the r s s feed. [01:16:52] Christina: Or if they won’t have an RSS option at all. So if you are creating content, I, I cannot stress enough, like if you have a website, like make sure that you [01:17:00] make the RSS discoverable. Don’t hide that because like, I think even, [01:17:03] Brett: do it. You can do it with meta, you can do it in the meta of your website. You don’t have to have a subscribe button on your main page. You can make it discoverable. It just takes that extra effort to put a link tag in your meta. [01:17:19] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, cause I think that WordPress by default now, doesn’t like do it the same way that they used to. And so, yeah. And so, you know, um, all of that might go away. I mean, I’m hopeful with Activity Pub that that’s gonna get more people into the idea of rss because they are all interconnected. [01:17:38] Christina: And, and so I hope as more people start, you know, looking at those types of protocols, people will. We can bring RSS back. Um, it was really, you know, the downside of, uh, uh, speaking of feed bin, they’d had a way where you could subscribe to Twitter feeds. Um, and that’s dead now because of the a p i changes. [01:17:57] Christina: Your existing subscriptions still work, but the new [01:18:00] ones won’t happen. Um, there might be some third, uh, party workarounds, but, um, yeah. Uh, but, but yeah, net Newswire is a great app if you’re looking for, for, you know, keeping track of, of all your stuff. So yeah. Great, great pick. [01:18:16] Brett: Alright. Dude, just the two of us pulled off over an hour of an episode. [01:18:22] Christina: love it. [01:18:23] Brett: Who’s that? Jeff Guy Anyway, [01:18:25] Christina: we miss him. We miss you, Jeff. Um, he’ll, he’ll be back for our next one. And, uh, next time I talk to you guys, um, I, I will have to figure out when we’re recording because I will be in Atlanta and I’ll be like on a Taylor Swift hangover. So next time we talk I will be like giving you all the dets on, uh, on, on the Arrows Tour. [01:18:44] Brett: the The what? [01:18:46] Christina: ERAS tour. [01:18:47] Brett: Oh, I thought you said the aero store. [01:18:50] Christina: sorry, sorry. Eras. E r a s tour. Yeah. I’m not, I’m not annunciating that Well, it’s also hard to that, that, that’s a hard thing to say. The Taylor Swift [01:18:58] Brett: Tour the Aris [01:19:00] tour. All right. Well, Christina, great to see you. Great to catch up. Get some [01:19:05] Christina: get some sleep, Brett.

All three hosts are back this week, and the discussion ranges from favorite bookstores to favorite window managers, with a healthy dose of mental health in between. Sponsor ZocDoc lets you choose a doctor using real patient ratings, and book appointments (live or telehealth) in minutes. No more waiting on hold. Take your healthcare seriously and visit zocdoc.com/OVERTIRED. The hosts of Techmeme Drive Home read all of the latest tech news so they can keep you up to date on the latest. Tune in every day for a full rundown of tech news with context and analysis. Show Links Drury Lane Bookstore Literati Books (Brett forgot, it’s in Ann Arbor, not Chicago. Chicago was where he went to a really fun sex toy store.) Strand bookstore Powell’s Books Spotlight Infinite Zero (Rollins/Ruben) Stressed out, busy moms say microdosing mushrooms makes life easier and brighter Viticci stage manager CodeRunner CodeRunner on Setapp Find which of your favorite apps are on Setapp SwiftDefaultApps Grammarly Business Moom Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Fire the Stage Manager! [00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired. [00:00:04] Christina: You are listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren, and I am joined as always by Brett. Uh, by Brett Terpstra. I was gonna say Brett Severns. Guntzel. Uh, would be, which would be funny. Now [00:00:15] Jeffrey: Big news. [00:00:16] Christina: News. Your two favorite podcast host got married? No, uh, by Jeff Severns. Guntzel and Bre Terpstra. [00:00:23] Christina: How are you guys doing? [00:00:24] Brett: So well tired, but good. [00:00:27] Jeffrey: I, uh, I tore my meniscus at, um, at a bookstore, [00:00:35] Brett: What, uh, what, what bookstore [00:00:37] Jeffrey: uh, I [00:00:38] Jeffrey: was [00:00:38] Brett: a bookstore over the Jungle Gym? [00:00:40] Jeffrey: no. Every bookstore I realize is ableist because you can’t get down to that bottom shelf if. You know, if you have any trouble like squatting or bending over or eye problems, whatever. So I was, I was at Dreary Lane Books in Grand Moray, Minnesota, which is right on Lake Superior. [00:00:57] Jeffrey: It’s an amazing, tiny, [00:01:00] independent bookstore. And it is a great example of how good curation can make a small bookstore feel big. And I like to go there. We go there every spring break, uh, to Grand Mare. And I like to go to that bookstore and look at every book, um, just scan every shelf. And I was squatting down to scan the bottom shelf and something July 4th like happened in my left knee and I tipped over. [00:01:26] Christina: Oh no. [00:01:29] Jeffrey: And then a couple days later when I’m home, it swelled up super bad. And I went to, by the way, orthopedic Urgent Care. Right. That’s a thing. And. And that is amazing. And if you go to the rich suburbs, uh, nobody’s there. And so you get right in. So anyway, how am I doing? I’m actually doing good, but my knee hurts and I, I, uh, it’s been pointed out that it’s a, it’s the nerdiest thing ever to tear it at a bookstore. [00:01:55] Christina: Well, [00:01:56] Brett: the show notes, what was the name of that book? [00:01:58] Jeffrey: Uh, Drury [00:02:00] Lane. D r u r y. Like the muffin man. Yep, exactly. [00:02:05] Brett: Yeah, I, I, I figured it’s, I love independent bookstores, so, we’ll, we’ll put ’em in the show notes. Maybe, maybe someone will be like, Hey, I want to go to the place where Jeff, uh, Torres Meniscus, [00:02:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:17] Brett: if you, have you guys ever been to literati in Chicago? [00:02:22] Jeffrey: God, I lived in Chicago, but no, when, how long has it been [00:02:24] Brett: I have no idea. A while, but I don’t know, at least five years, maybe 20 for all I know. But great bookstore, So quick note from the editor. The bookstore I’m talking about here is actually in Ann Arbor, and I visited on the same trip as I went to Chicago and I mix up my locations. But the reason Jeff had never heard of it is because it’s in Michigan. [00:02:47] Christina: no. The one, the ones that I know, and I know Seattle has some, but I’m gonna be honest with you, Seattle’s a city kind of sucks and. [00:02:53] Brett: has, [00:02:54] Christina: Portland has Powells. I, yeah, [00:02:56] Jeffrey: they have [00:02:56] Christina: say, I was gonna say, Portland has Powells and then in New York it’s Strand [00:03:00] and, and that’s just like the best, um, like [00:03:04] Jeffrey: I was just getting into this with someone like Powells is Strand, but better somehow. [00:03:09] Christina: Yeah, agreed. But, but, but it’s one of those things like, like, like the strand was like not far from where I worked. So I might [00:03:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. Amazing. [00:03:17] Mental Health Corner [00:03:17] Christina: I might have told the story before, but I had this, it was like the greatest day ever where, and it didn’t start out that way. Uh, I think this is actually a good segue to Mental health Corner. [00:03:25] Christina: I got off the subway, it was like 8 45 in the morning, which for me was early cuz I never got to work like in time for the 9:00 AM meeting. That was just sort of a known thing that I was gonna either be on the call or I’d be coming in late. Cuz like, I just didn’t, I just was not a morning person. So unless I was on TV at. [00:03:44] Christina: 7:00 AM or 6:00 AM or something. I was not in the office early, get off the subway, and I just like had this overwhelming sense of dread and I was like, I can’t do it today. I can’t do it. I can’t go in, I can’t do it. And so I made up an [00:04:00] excuse because back then, and this was like six years ago, like you quit seven years ago. [00:04:04] Christina: Like you couldn’t say, oh, I’m having a mental, I need a mental health day. [00:04:08] Christina: So, um, I get, I, I make up an excuse, like I was like, oh, I just threw up or something or another. I was like, I’ve gotta go back home. But instead of going back home, I was like, I don’t really wanna go back home. [00:04:20] Christina: I know I can’t do anything else. Like, uh, like I can’t do work today, but I don’t know what else I could do. So I went to the Strand and I walked around and like, as soon as it opened, like I had to wait like a couple minutes and I walked around there for a while. I wound up buying a couple of books and then I found like a 10:00 AM showing of, of, of Spotlight, like, cuz that was in theaters then at, at, at the, at the, uh, Regal In in Union [00:04:43] Jeffrey: Is that the one about the Boston Globe’s coverage of the sex scandals in the church. [00:04:47] Christina: Yes. And it’s a, just a fantastic journalism movie and it’s just a great movie all around. So I see that movie at like 10:00 AM in a fairly empty theater. And keep in mind, I’m, I’m within blocks of my office, so I, at this point I’m like, Hmm, [00:05:00] I got lunch, but I was like, Hmm, you’re gonna have to go home because somebody will see you. [00:05:05] Christina: So then I like went to Prospect Park for the afternoon and then I went home and it was like the greatest day. [00:05:11] Jeffrey: That’s nice. That’s [00:05:13] Christina: like I, I, I played hooky, but it was like it was much needed. And then like, I, I was able to come back to work like the next day and like actually be able to function. So, [00:05:21] Jeffrey: I, in my experience in New York, we lived there for like three or four years. Like those days where you’re like, fuck it, I’m walking around. Like it’s got that sort of Ferris Bueller’s whimsy to it, you know? It’s such cuz you can go anywhere and you can do any kind of thing and it’s so great. Anyway. I love that. [00:05:38] Christina: Anyway, so that, that’s, that, that’s my like bookstore slash mental health Treat yourself story. Go, go, go to a bookstore. Go to the go, go to the movies, go to the park. [00:05:50] Jeffrey: Yes. The. Oh man. So I used to work in warehouses. It’s pretty hard to feel bad about calling in sick to a warehouse. Um, [00:06:00] and I did one day and it was a, it was a music distribution warehouse. It primarily distributed independent labels related to, or adjacent to reco disk, which had like Frank Zappas whole catalog. [00:06:12] Jeffrey: And they had like evidence, which had like sunrise whole catalog. It was just an amazing warehouse and we would get amazing visitors. Henry Rollins came once to talk to us when he, he started this really cool label with Rick Rubin called Infinite Zero back in like 96 or seven. And it was just meant to get stuff back into print that was most important to just the two of them. [00:06:32] Jeffrey: Um, and Henry Rollins, for all the weirdness of that dude came and addressed just the warehouse workers to tell us how much these albums and these CDs mean to him and how grateful he is that we’re helping to get them out into the world. That is classy. [00:06:49] Christina: Yeah, it is. [00:06:51] Jeffrey: And then, and then the other thing that happened was I called in sick one day and I learned at the end of the [00:07:00] day that Bootsy fucking Collins had visited the [00:07:03] Brett: Oh, do you miss [00:07:05] Jeffrey: who was a hero of mine. Going back to when I was a kid, that was my first concert, was Parliament Funkadelic like, and I loved him so much and I was so sad. And I have an autographed CD thanks to my friend Joe, but it doesn’t feel good. just reminds [00:07:22] Jeffrey: me [00:07:23] Christina: weren’t there. [00:07:24] Jeffrey: I wasn’t doing anything wrong. It was a shitty warehouse job. Like I shouldn’t have been punished like that. [00:07:28] Jeffrey: Bootsy Collins. I could have shook his hand. I could have just heard him, you know, talking. Yay. [00:07:33] Brett: then you, you never missed another day again after [00:07:36] Jeffrey: Yeah, no, I got fired about two weeks later. I, I, uh, I was, I was, uh, the first strike was the president of the company came into the warehouse and there was a vending machine right next to the door. And I was on the floor with my arm all the way up the vending machine trying to get a candy bar. [00:07:54] Jeffrey: And he just looks at me and he goes, get out of there. And then a couple weeks after that, I organized a [00:08:00] pallet jack race where we would all just like, you could use ’em like scooters and the corporate meeting offices look down over the warehouse. And at one point I see in that window, like the entire administration leadership looking down on us, just like shaking their heads. [00:08:15] Jeffrey: And so anyway, eventually I got fired, which was the right, right thing for them to do. Um, and, uh, anyhow, call in sick days. [00:08:25] Brett: Sick days. Mental [00:08:26] Jeffrey: I don’t have to do that anymore. [00:08:28] Brett: All right, so speaking of mental health days, um, I, should I start, I. [00:08:35] Jeffrey: Do it. I just wanna point out that Brett is talking to us as his cat is in the foreground, staring at him. [00:08:41] Brett: staring me down. [00:08:43] Christina: and and I’m like, I love your cat so much anyways. All right. Go on. [00:08:46] Jeffrey: What are we talking about, Brett? [00:08:47] Brett: okay, so the, the first update I have is, um, a week of microdosing mushrooms. Um, I wrote a blog post about this, [00:09:00] um, and things were going really well, uh, except l l did not appreciate that I was so publicly putting illegal substance use out on the internet where it could be linked forever. [00:09:14] Brett: And, um, so I, I. Redacted the post. And, uh, I put up like a, Hey, you know, when things are decriminalized, I’ll tell you more about this, but I think it’s okay to talk about here. Maybe you won’t put anything in this show notes, but, um, I, I found the right dosage of the, the current strain of mushrooms I’m getting is about 200 milligrams a day. [00:09:39] Brett: And at that dosage, um, like there’s no, no visuals, uh, y you don’t feel like you’re tripping at all. Like, that’s not the point. Um, but, uh, definite mood elevation, definite attention, um, improvements. And, uh, I feel emotions, a wider range of emotions than I usually [00:10:00] do. I get, I get more excited and more empathetic and, uh, it, it, it was going really well and it wasn’t causing any mania. [00:10:10] Brett: But then I had this snafu where, so I went to the hospital back in December. With cuz my watch told me right, that, that my heart rate was elevated. And then, uh, the doctor at the last time, I got a refill for the first time, she’s like, I can’t give you a refill on Vivance until I hear from your doctor. And my doctor does not respond to messages or emails or calls even. [00:10:42] Brett: Uh, the only way I’ve ever talked to him is to see him in person. Um, so fortunately I had a meeting, uh, an appointment coming up soon and I did, I went to see him after I had been off five for about three days. And he said, there’s no problem. Uh, like it was a [00:11:00] fluke that you were in the hospital. There’s no reason to stop your meds. [00:11:03] Brett: And most cardiac events, uh, aren’t exacerbated by stimulants anyway. Um, So, uh, he, he, he said, sure, go ahead, uh, continue the Vince, I go back to my doctor who as I’ve mentioned before, is moving to another practice. And the in between her denying my refill and me getting approval from the doctor, she had officially left the practice and discharged me as a patient and could no longer fill my prescription. [00:11:32] Brett: And so the only option was to go back to my doctor and ask him to fill it until I can see her again. And like I said, he doesn’t respond to anything, so I didn’t have a lot of hope. Um, I, I sent a message through the portal and I made a phone call and talked to a sympathetic nurse, and a day later he did come through and I got my Viva. [00:11:54] Brett: But when I’m off Vivance for a few days and I take it, boom, manic episode. [00:12:00] So Thursday night I didn’t sleep at all. Um, released a whole new project. It, I love it. It’s great. Um, but. [00:12:09] Jeffrey: I am not caught up on that. [00:12:10] Brett: Yeah, I haven’t written about it yet. You’ll see it soon. Um, but in the, in, I slept last night, uh, pretty well. I think the manic episode was short-lived. [00:12:22] Brett: Um, I don’t seem to be manic today, so it was like a one day cyc cyclo theia kind of event. So that’s where I’m at now. Coming, coming off a manic episode, have my vivance back, um, learning more and more about microdosing and getting really good results from it. To summarize, in summary, [00:12:46] Jeffrey: That’s. Great. I was just talking to my cousin the other night about, uh, his experience microdosing and it’s super frustrating how far ahead of the laws, um, this particular thing is. You know, it’s [00:13:00] like really frustrating cuz it’s technically schedule one. It’s illegal to have, but everybody I know who has tried it and it’s five, six people have only reported for them very positive effects. [00:13:13] Jeffrey: And that’s just, that’s a small sample [00:13:15] Brett: I mean the, the medical community though is very much interested in decriminalizing hallucinogenics so that they can continue what have proven to be very hopeful studies thus far. I think Washington, is it Washington that allows me medical use of mushrooms. [00:13:34] Christina: I think so. I think so. I, I, I don’t know the details, if that sounds right, because most things [00:13:40] Brett: I know there’s at least one state that lifted the ban on [00:13:43] Christina: it might be Colorado, [00:13:44] Brett: and maybe acid, maybe it was Colorado. They were, they were leaders in the weed decriminalization. [00:13:50] Jeffrey: I think it is. In fact, I’m, I’m looking at a Colorado public radio story called Stressed Out. Busy Moms say Microdosing mushrooms makes life easier [00:14:00] and brighter. Um, and it is, yeah, it’s, it’s great. And I just wanna read one of these sentences, mommies, who microdose are among the fastest growing groups of followers send us mommies, who microdose and, and also the photos in this are by my old colleague, Hart Vandenberg, who’s a wonderful photographer and a wonderful man. [00:14:18] Jeffrey: I put it in the show notes. [00:14:20] Christina: here. All right. He here. Here’s where it’s decriminalized. It is decriminalized. And, and this is according to the Wikipedia page, which is the status of psycho, uh, cylo mushrooms. Um, and then they have like possession sale, transport, cultivation, and then the notes. And so the United States just for possession. [00:14:37] Christina: Sorry, let me scroll down to where this is. I really do hate Wikipedia as the, the way they do tables, honestly. Um, in the future, I will use chat g p T for this because I bet it will be in a, in a prettier way. All right. It is illegal, but decriminalized in Seattle, Washington, and Arbor, Michigan. Oakland and Santa Cruz, California, [00:15:00] Summerville and Cambridge, Massachusetts, Oregon. [00:15:02] Christina: So the whole state of Oregon and Washington, DC and it’s legal in Colorado, [00:15:07] Brett: All [00:15:07] Jeffrey: Oh, okay. [00:15:09] Christina: decriminalized in Seattle. Um, but, but it’s interesting that it’s just Seattle. So I’m like, okay, is it just the city of Seattle? Is it like the other, probably is just the city. Um, and, and it’s decriminalized in Ann Arbor because, you know, you gotta, you got, you, you gotta like let the, the, the rich like coy toy folks, um, have access, but also, I mean, honestly makes sense I guess from like a medical [00:15:33] Brett: It’s a, it’s a big, yeah, it’s a big college town with a big medical program, [00:15:38] Christina: right? Yeah. That, that’s what I’m saying. So that, that makes sense. Ok. Oakland and Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz. I can see Oakland feels a little Okay. Um. Because there’s not, it’s not like there are good hospitals in Oakland. There are good hospitals in Palo Alto. Uh, there are good hospitals in San Francisco. I don’t know if there are good hospitals in Oakland. [00:15:56] Christina: Um, [00:15:57] Jeffrey: There’s gotta be good hospitals in Oakland.[00:16:00] [00:16:00] Christina: I, I, I, I don’t think so, but, but I will let [00:16:03] Jeffrey: Fuck you Oakland. [00:16:04] Christina: I will let listeners correct me. Um, what I’m sure is wrong, uh, Summerville and Cambridge, so, you know, Cambridge makes, makes sense. All of Decriminalize, all of Oregon and Washington, DC within Colorado is just like fucking legal dude. We don’t care. [00:16:17] Brett: I, it’s, it’s so weird that it’s by and large, so like city by city, like, is it just that hard to get state legislation passed that the cities, the city’s real, like, we’ll, just within our, with our, within our borders. You’re [00:16:31] Christina: Probably, and, well, I don’t know, like in Washington, in Washington state, I feel like it’s something they could probably get passed, but I don’t know. But I also know the, the, the Seattle City Council, who’s I hate. And I, I think that they’re completely like incompetent and I’m so glad that the piece of shit, um, city councilwoman is not running again. [00:16:55] Christina: Um, sorry, uh, to people who are, are fans of, uh, uh, [00:17:00] Kshama, um, Saan, but she fucking sucks. Um, but [00:17:04] Jeffrey: coming after everybody Oakland, the city council. [00:17:07] Christina: mostly just Seattle. I’ve just been pissed off at Seattle for the last couple of weeks to be totally honest with you. Um, but, uh, but, but my, my city councilwoman is a, she fucking sucks. [00:17:16] Christina: She’s the fucking worst person in the world. Um, she’s like the, she, she, she’s the person who makes all socialists like, look bad because she’s such like a, like a, a, a, she’s so left. She’s like, it goes into just like a, it, it, it goes into parody status and literally like makes everything that we fight for like harder because of assholes like her. [00:17:37] Christina: Um, but, uh, I, I, I can see it having no problem getting past in, in Seattle City Council. I would think they could do it statewide though. Maybe it just takes more time. I don’t know. [00:17:50] Brett: Minnesota still hasn’t legalized weed, but we can have [00:17:53] Jeffrey: We’re close. [00:17:54] Brett: Yeah, [00:17:55] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty much, I mean, we have a completely Democratic government at this point, [00:18:00] and so it’s one of those things that’s just gonna kind of slide right through. [00:18:03] Christina: Yeah. I, I read this, this deranged National Review article this week from some, like, I felt very sad for the family, but that was just like, wow, you guys are completely taking this out of like blaming the wrong thing who are going on this anti, like, legalization of marijuana scheme because their schizophrenic daughter who overdosed, it’s very sad. [00:18:23] Christina: They blame her schizophrenia on the fact that she like smoked weed in college. [00:18:27] Brett: huh? [00:18:28] Christina: it’s like, [00:18:29] Brett: Is that legit? [00:18:31] Jeffrey: That’s not what they mean when they say gateway. [00:18:32] Christina: that’s, that, that, that is legit. [00:18:34] Brett: I’m told that my drug use may have caused my bipolar. Um, it, it, there are other members in my, on my mom’s side of the family that had bipolar, um, all of which are dead now. But, um, I was told by both my therapist and my psychiatrist that drug use, uh, in a young brain can lead to [00:19:00] complications such as bipolar disorder. [00:19:02] Christina: I, I think, and I don’t know cause I’m not a doctor, but the studies and the things I’ve read are that if you have something that’s latent that’s already there, it, it’s possible that drug use at a young agent, it depends on the drug and, and, and marijuana. I think that there’s, there’s some dis, you know, there’s some confusion about this. [00:19:19] Christina: I think it would have to be a lot, and I think that it would have to be a very specific circumstance. Could be the thing that could like maybe. Like set someone off, like unlock what’s already there. But I think that it’s like a, a massive reach to be like, this caused it, because as you said, like you’ve got other members in your family, you don’t know whether they did, you know, drugs or, or, or not. [00:19:40] Christina: But it could also even come down to like, well this could be, you know, medications that you’re on. Um, could do things too. I think there’s some people who might be, you could make an argument, are predisposed, um, to cer to developing certain conditions. And maybe like drug use speeds it up, but, [00:19:58] Brett: I had bipolar [00:20:00] symptoms, uh, in high school and I didn’t really get into, I was, I was drinking in high school, but I didn’t really get into like any massive drug use until I was like 16. So my first couple years of high school, I was definitely displaying symptoms of mania and depression, uh, before [00:20:23] Christina: B before. Uh, there’s also, I think, an argument to be made that people who are, uh, you know, potentially, um, having symptoms might be seeking out drugs to [00:20:34] Brett: Oh yeah. Yeah. See, that’s the thing is when I, when I think about like my, my heroin addiction, um, it very much like I sought it out because of my, my mental kind of imbalances, my needs, um, like the need for dopamine and the need for a kick, and the need for a way to numb my feelings. Like it was all very much like my [00:21:00] mental health led to that kind of addiction. [00:21:04] Brett: I don’t think, I don’t think normal, happy people seek out heroin. [00:21:08] Christina: right. No, I, I don’t think, like, yeah, I mean, I, and, and I don’t know who does, I mean, like, I think maybe you’re bored, maybe you know, you don’t know whatnot. Like, because I, I’ve certainly done certain drugs when like had nothing to do with like the state of my mental health, which is like, okay, fuck it. [00:21:23] Brett: I wanted to do something dangerous. I get a real kick out of throwing caution to the wind. And I couldn’t think of anything more dangerous than, than doing hard drugs. [00:21:33] Christina: no, fair enough. [00:21:34] Brett: I get, it was real exciting. It still is. The thought of like, doing drugs is very much appealing to me. Like all of my bad experiences combined don’t make it any less appealing. [00:21:48] Christina: Is, is it that you know that you could die? Is it the risk factor? Like, or, or is it the taboo in it being illegal and dangerous? [00:21:54] Brett: it’s the taboo. And just knowing that it’s gonna feel really good and, and I can forget about [00:22:00] everything else for a little while. Not just problems, but forget about everything else and, and just focus on, on, you know, the drug. But [00:22:10] Jeffrey: Did you, did you watch, um, fear of the Walking Dead? [00:22:14] Christina: I did, I, I watched like the first few years. [00:22:18] Jeffrey: was, so this character Nick played by Frank Delaine, who’s just amazing in this role. Um, [00:22:24] Brett: right? [00:22:24] Christina: Yeah. [00:22:25] Jeffrey: and I, I was just curious if you had seen it, like there are all kinds of stages of his experience that get represented and he, I think he does a really powerful job of representing them. But there is this moment where he’s been almost like willing to be reckless when things are getting dangerous around his family. [00:22:43] Jeffrey: And, and there’s a point where I believe he has to sort of make a decision and, and his family’s, you know, urging him not to, and he makes this point of like, I’ve been close to death so many times, like I’ve died. You know, he’s like, I’m, I’m ready. But he talked about sort of how [00:23:00] he kind of hit at that thing, about the risk of it. [00:23:03] Jeffrey: Um, which is something that like, I don’t think people often understand about heroin addiction or heroin use is that, That sense of like walking up to the ultimate line potentially and not knowing how you’re gonna come out of it, is that, is that, I mean, does that resonate or is that kind of a fair reflection of [00:23:20] Brett: some extent. I just, I’ve never, like, I started thinking about my mortality at a very young age and, um, I think I just kind of accepted that I’m gonna die one way or another. And it wasn’t necessarily a thrill to like seek out death, but it didn’t, it didn’t scare me. So I don’t think, I don’t think that was a reason I did it. [00:23:43] Brett: I don’t think that was where the thrill came from. Um, but a side note, A D H D people, it’s, it’s been theorized that, um, we exist because in an evolutionary capacity, [00:24:00] um, A D H D people are the ones. Notice when things are wrong, fastest, and in situ, in pressure situations, we’re the ones that take control. [00:24:10] Brett: We’re the ones that are like, suddenly come into our own. We’re like, no, I got this. And we’re willing to take risks. We’re willing to do dumb things to like save the day. And like for like early man, and even, even early le even post Ad Man, like that kind of characteristic needed to exist within a community. [00:24:35] Brett: Uh, it’s less so now, now it’s more of a detriment, but like in especially a hunter gathered society, it, it makes a lot of sense. You would want, you would want the ADHD [00:24:45] Christina: you would want the person with, with, with the low impulse control. It’s so interesting cuz my adhd, like, I don’t have like lack of impulse control. Like that’s not one of my, that, that’s like not one of my symptoms. Uh, which is, um, which is interesting. I don’t think [00:25:00] that I’m not, and, and I’m not trying to like make this a across gendered lines because I just don’t know enough. [00:25:04] Christina: But I do wonder if, because there is a, whether it is, uh, genetic or, um, um, if it, if it’s like a, you know, sociological thing, you know, you see the difference a lot of times. Like, uh, and I know this from my mom, like you can observe very clearly little boys who have a D H D in the classroom. Like it’s very, very obvious little girls. [00:25:26] Christina: It’s not. Usually because they don’t have the same lack of impulse control. And I don’t know, like what the reason for that is. I don’t know, again, if it’s like a, you know, a, a genetic thing, like a chromosomal thing or if it’s just like a, a, a conditioning thing [00:25:41] Brett: yeah, no, I, it definitely presents differently in, in females [00:25:45] Christina: 100% like, like because, because the thing is is that I definitely was a lot more, and I wouldn’t say I had impulse control, I was just more like, I don’t give a fuck. Like when I, before I entered elementary school, I was definitely, like, my personality was definitely much more like, [00:26:00] um, outgoing and like, they called me the wild woman and I would like, do you know some things that you might, might strike you as, as, as impulse things. [00:26:09] Christina: But, but then I don’t even know how to like grip that cuz I’m like, okay, if you’re two years old, like, what, what, what does that mean? You know what I mean? Um, but um, I didn’t, I didn’t have any of the symptoms when I was in elementary school. People never would’ve thought that I was adhd, but then looking back at it and I’m like, oh, no, I, I had those things. [00:26:28] Christina: It’s just I was able to cope with it very well, and it was hidden. [00:26:31] Brett: well, yeah, [00:26:32] Christina: I don’t, I, I didn’t get diagnosed until I was, you know, like 15. [00:26:35] Brett: same with autism too. Like girls at a young age become better at masking symptoms than boys do. [00:26:43] Christina: Totally. Although I, I think like for my A D H D, it wasn’t even a masking thing per se. I mean, Like some, there were, there was some masking. I would mask my depression, but like I didn’t feel like I was masking, you know, like I, I remember when I got diagnosed I was like, this is insane. And it was [00:27:00] one of those things that, that I even like blamed. [00:27:02] Christina: It’s funny kind of going back to the topic, like I’ve been on Prozac and Prozac is the thing that seemed to kick off like the most overt a ADHD symptoms I’d ever had where I was no longer able to control if, if they’d been there before, like I would maybe put things off then I would maybe, you know, kind of get into scenarios where I would have to, you know, kind of crunch. [00:27:19] Christina: But I was always able to do it and it was never a problem. And then, Prozac, I was like literally unable to focus on anything. And I, I’ve never, I’ve never felt more like stereotypically ADHD in my life than like, when I was on that drug. And then even going off of it, it didn’t stop. And so there was, you know, like is not, you know, these things are not correlation. [00:27:41] Christina: Whatever correlation’s, not causation, whatever that the phrase is. But there was like a, an instinct where you wanna say, oh, this happened because of this, but like, I, I don’t think that would be an appropriate thing for me to be like, oh, I went on this antidepressant and that’s what caused my A D H D. [00:27:57] Christina: Like, because I can go back and I can [00:28:00] look at, oh no, I had these other latent things. Now did it exacerbate a thing that was already in my mind and maybe have it present itself earlier and were acute. Than it would have otherwise. Sure. Um, but like, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that we need to ban Prozac the same way. [00:28:17] Christina: You know, like, again, I guess awful as I feel for the, the, the individual family whose, you know, daughter, like, went from being seemingly perfect to having schizophrenia and then dying. It’s like, you know, she was, she was schizophrenic. She wasn’t going to be okay if she’d never smoked pot, you know? [00:28:35] Brett: yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting, uh, that, that Prozac connection though, [00:28:40] Christina: Yeah. [00:28:41] Brett: that’s not a, that’s not a side effect I’ve ever heard [00:28:43] Christina: no, and, and it’s not one that anybody else has ever seen, but it was so acute. It was literally like an overnight thing. Like it was literally a, a like, you, you’re taking this drug and a complete important, a comport, an important component of your personality completely changes. [00:28:58] Brett: Doesn’t Prozac [00:29:00] have like a one month titration period? Like I, I’d be curious like what, what chemical reaction happened? Uh, because like for depression, you don’t even see depression symptoms get better for, I think it’s a month. [00:29:14] Christina: It depends. And, and I’m very sensitive to medication, um, especially in SSRIs, which is why I can’t take traditional SSRIs. And, and we found this out because I went on like 15 or 16 different ones in a, in a small period of [00:29:29] Brett: I know how that goes. Yeah. [00:29:31] Christina: And, and there, there’s another component there, which is my, um, my age was one thing, but my body weight and my bone age was another. [00:29:41] Christina: And this was before a lot of doctors had experienced prescribing these sorts of things, essentially to children. Because when I was 15, my bone age was eight and a half and I weighed like 68 pounds. So, you know, um, how so, so yeah, like, so they’ll, [00:30:00] they’ll scan your, your wrists and stuff and they’ll like compare like the size and like the density and things of your bones. [00:30:06] Christina: And, [00:30:06] Jeffrey: Oh yeah. Bone density is part of it. [00:30:08] Christina: and, and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll age it that way. And, um, I, I was so small and, and like hadn’t gone through, you know, puberty and all those things that, it was one of those things that like having, you know, they were having to look up on, on their, you know, charts and things, okay, how, how do we even dose this? [00:30:24] Christina: How do we even prescribe this? Because the normal dose would be this. How do we give, how, how do we dose this to someone, you know, um, this size. Um, and so which was, which was a challenge. So, um, I don’t know, like it could have been a, but, but it was one of those things where it was within days. It was definitely within a week where I noticed on Prozac it was like an instantaneous. [00:30:48] Christina: Oh, I, I can’t focus, I can’t pay any attention. I remember my mom sitting in the, um, kitchen table with me trying to run flashcards for me to learn my biology, like study for a biology test, and her just [00:31:00] being almost like in shock because her straight A, like type a like child, like, couldn’t focus on her face and couldn’t remember one thing to the next and couldn’t stop fidgeting and couldn’t, you know, have any amount of, of, of, um, like recall. [00:31:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wow. Huh. [00:31:22] Christina: So, I don’t know. [00:31:24] Jeffrey: Yeah. Bone d not to like, but, but bone density was something that we had a member of our family who, um, was having just kind of had two weird stress fractures outta nowhere, and bone density is the kind of thing that you have to have the right doctor to even bring it up. I mean, we went to a couple of doctors, nothing came up. [00:31:44] Jeffrey: Then all of a sudden it was like, I think I called my cousin to talk to him about it. He’s like a, he’s a podiatrist, and he’s like, first thing he said, get the bone density checked. No one had done that. It’s so interesting how, how you can, how there can be such a big thing that just gets missed. [00:31:58] Christina: Yeah, no, you’re [00:32:00] right. And, and that’s something like, I always have to like bring that up whenever, um, I have any sort of, you know, like, like break or whatever. Like, I had to mention it when I was hit by the car and like, I broke my wrist, bring it up. I was like, soap, you should know, you know, I had to go on certain things and like, I, you know, my bone is deep age. [00:32:17] Christina: Other stuff I’ve, I’ve less, like, I, I was basically told when I was a child I was like, yeah, you’re gonna have osteopenia, osteoporosis. Like, it’s, it’s not a will you, it is a when will you thing. Like, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like, you know, um, so, you know, I had to point that out. I was like, might look okay in this thing, but this is not the way it goes. [00:32:37] Christina: Like, even if you, if you meet me in person, like you’ll notice like my bones are still very small. Like I’m, I’m, I’m a small person, but like my bones are like petite in a way that it’s like, you know, I, I appear smaller than I am. [00:32:50] Brett: So you’ve been tw, you’ve been 29 for at least five years now. Do you think your, your bone age [00:32:55] Jeffrey: Oh, good question. Good [00:32:57] Christina: That is a good question. I don’t know. I should get that. I should get [00:33:00] that done. Um, I don’t know because it’s possible that it could go higher, like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s possible. Like, no, no. Cuz it’s, it’s possible that like, that, that it could, that it could inverse. I don’t know. [00:33:11] Jeffrey: Or could you take your actual age and if your bone age is younger, use that in a little bit of math to be able to really, truly say, [00:33:19] Christina: I mean that’s, I mean, that is sort of like my, my like rationale for, you know, remaining as young as possible, as long as. Is the fact that actually, you know, I’ve got like a five and a half, like six year like deficit between, you know, [00:33:37] Jeffrey: I’m 16 in bone years. [00:33:41] Christina: I’m 29 and boney years. [00:33:44] Jeffrey: That’s great. [00:33:45] Christina: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. That was my mental health update. But I didn’t mean to interrupt you Brett, but are [00:33:49] Brett: Oh [00:33:50] Christina: doing okay now? [00:33:51] Brett: Oh yeah, yeah. No, that was a very thorough mental health update for Brett and uh, and Christina’s kind of slid in and overlapped, so, uh, yeah, [00:34:00] I’m good. Jeff, how are you? [00:34:01] Jeffrey: I’m doing, I’m doing good. I, my what’s been on my mind a lot lately, which is certainly a mental health connection, is chronic pain. And, um, and I just wanna shout out to all my chronic pain people out there, um, who, who can only you can know how truly debilitating chronic pain is. It is very hard for the people in your life to hold that, right. [00:34:23] Jeffrey: Like, to hold it constantly in part because you’re not always acting out of chronic pain. Right. Um, but the thing I’ve been thinking about is I, I’ve been making so many doctor appointments to deal with various kinds of chronic pain. I mean, I’m, I’m a really, I’m a big guy. I’m six four. I’m like two 70 thanks to Seroquel medication that makes you gain a lot of weight. [00:34:45] Jeffrey: Um, and I recently like gained weight, sounded so fast because of that medication that my joints were like, ho, ho, not ready. Didn’t warm up for this. And uh, anyway, the chronic pain thing that I just wanna [00:35:00] say, and I wanna say to anybody out there for whom this might be useful, and I understand there are a lot of people with chronic pain for whom this won’t be useful, but that I’ve had some good luck recently by just getting into somebody who I trust to talk to. [00:35:15] Jeffrey: It’s a hard thing to do and I’m definitely leading into our Zoc doc sponsorship, but, um, but I have found some really key relief by finally just going in, which is a thing that’s hard for me to do in. When I went in with my torn meniscus, I’ve actually had some issues with that knee for about a month or two, and he said, what have you done for it? [00:35:37] Jeffrey: And I was like, I’m a Scandinavian. I didn’t do anything, man. I thought about, thought about surviving the next winter, started gathering berries. That’s what I did. Anyway, I mostly am saying that just to like send out like little empathy torpedoes to everybody out there who’s, who’s experiencing chronic pain and, and is frustrated and paralyzed by it sometimes z.[00:36:00] [00:36:00] Brett: I, uh, I, I wrote, I wrote, I put together a new script for us. Christina. It’ll be a cold read for you. [00:36:06] Sponsor: ZocDoc [00:36:06] Christina: All right. This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc. All right, so you’ve been suing about a health problem you have, maybe you’ve torn a, maybe you’ve torn your meniscus. Maybe you’re concerned about like, what is the bone age of, uh, of, of your arm. Uh, maybe you’ve got something else going on. You’re almost resorting to texting your, your group chat to get your friends opinions, which, you know what? [00:36:29] Christina: Depends on your group chat. I’m, I’m gonna be honest about you, uh, with, with you on that, like depends on the group chat. You’re extremely unlikely to find quality medical advice in your group chat, but again, it’s gonna depend, uh, but you can find it from a doctor on Zocdoc. Thousands of medical professionals on Zocdoc are there to help you and they listen like a friend and they give you expert care that you need. [00:36:50] Christina: Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed. Take your insurance are available when you need them, and treat [00:37:00] almost every condition under the sun. So no more Dr. Roulette or scouring the internet for questionable reviews. With Zocdoc, you have a trusted guide to connect you to your favorite doctor you haven’t even met yet. [00:37:11] Christina: Millions of people use Zoc Docs free aft to find and book a doctor in their neighborhood who is patient, reviewed and fits their needs and scheduled just. I’m one of them. I’ve been using Zocdoc for more than a decade. Um, it is my go-to place to find a doctor. So go to zoc.com/ Overtired and download the zoc app for free. [00:37:31] Christina: Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s zoc. DO c.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ [00:37:47] Brett: Overtired, [00:37:48] Jeffrey: Oh, we should have harm. We should have harmonized. [00:37:50] Brett: Overtired, I’ll take the high part. No, I can’t do that. Um, so, uh, we are once again telling our listeners about [00:38:00] the Tech meme Ride home as our promo swap. Uh, when, when the New Yorker magazine asked Mark Zuckerberg how he gets his news, he said the one source he definitely follows is Tech Meme. [00:38:10] Podcast Swap: Tech Meme Ride Home [00:38:10] Brett: For four years now, the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast has been Silicon Valley’s favorite tech news source. The podcast has become so successful in fact that it launched a venture fund where the listeners are where the listeners to the show are the LPs and the. The tech meme Ride Home is like T L D R as a service. [00:38:30] Brett: It’s not just the latest headlines from the world of tech, it’s also the context around the latest news of the day. It’s all the top stories, the top posts, and tweets and conversations about those stories as well as behind the scenes analysis. Guests who have come on to lend their experience include Andreessen Horowitz’s, Chris Dixon, and Bloomberg’s Apple Rumor King Mark Germond. [00:38:52] Brett: The folks at Tech Meme are online all day reading everything so they can catch you up. So listen to the one podcast. [00:39:00] Anyone who’s anyone in Silicon Valley listens to every single day. Search your podcast app now for Ride Home and subscribe to the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast. [00:39:12] Jeffrey: Boom, we are sponsored. [00:39:16] Apple BAD!tude [00:39:16] Brett: Should we talk about some max stuff? [00:39:18] Christina: Yes. Let’s, let’s please, we were having, we were starting to get into a really good bitch fest right before we recorded that. I wanna hear from both of you about, so Yes. [00:39:26] Brett: like, I feel like that’s a vital part of the Apple community is just complaining. Um, if, if you don’t complain, things don’t get better. Right? [00:39:34] Christina: that’s exactly true. [00:39:35] Jeffrey: don’t think my complaints help things [00:39:37] Brett: Yeah. Same [00:39:38] Jeffrey: you I think could make some, could make some motion. [00:39:41] Christina: I, I ha I have successfully bitched on Twitter on a couple of occasions and gotten things fixed. Um, uh, like [00:39:48] Brett: on for, for individual teams. Like I can see like the web kit team listening to someone like you, or maybe even me, but Apple as a [00:39:56] Christina: Oh, no, absolutely not. No, no, no. But I’m just saying like, yeah, if you [00:40:00] can get things in front of the right people, um, and to be clear, like in, in like the most recent case, which was a, like a a T B o s instance, it was an issue that had been in a backlog. [00:40:09] Christina: And then, um, the, the, the hornets nest that I kicked up that other people then added onto then like, made it prioritized. And I’m very thankful to the people who, who prioritized it so that I can access my Apple TV library on my Apple tv. [00:40:24] Brett: Yeah, that’s handy. [00:40:25] Christina: It, it’s useful, right? It’s useful to be able to access the, the things you’ve purchased on the device that, that the company makes when you can access it on all the other devices that are not made by that company in their app, but not on their latest and greatest, um, device. [00:40:40] Christina: Yeah. [00:40:41] Brett: Last night, my girl, we were sitting down to, uh, group watch, um, Ted Lasso and my girlfriend’s sister. [00:40:49] Jeffrey: season. [00:40:50] Christina: good. [00:40:50] Brett: it is really good. But my girlfriend’s sister loaded up Apple TV on her Mac, uh, the TV app, and it came up and basically said she had nothing in her [00:41:00] library [00:41:00] Jeffrey: yeah. Well this just happened to us. Yeah, [00:41:02] Brett: we troubleshoot it. [00:41:03] Brett: Trouble shot it for a little while and then I was like, have you tried turning it off and turning it back on? And I rolled my eyes cuz, you know, generic advice, but she rebooted her computer and everything was fine. It worked. It always works. [00:41:20] Christina: what’s interesting on the Apple tv, if you are still running into problems and they’re, they’re clearly have issues, it’s, it’s not, it, it’s clearly an Apple problem. Cause they don’t have this problem with other clients like, it, it is, it is on their own clients. Like if you’re using the, uh, apple TV app on a Firestick or on an LG web OS tv or on [00:41:39] Brett: Wait, you can do that. [00:41:40] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:41:41] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:41:41] Brett: Oh, wow. [00:41:42] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:41:42] Christina: they decided they actually wanted people to watch their originals, they realized that they couldn’t rely on people to spend $200 on their, at the time pretty shitty in comparison. Like set top box, [00:41:53] Brett: That’s pretty obvious. [00:41:54] Christina: Right. Like at this point I, I think that the pricing is better and it’s a decent experience, but I would still say [00:42:00] I can get a Fire stick 4k. [00:42:02] Brett: like 40 bucks. [00:42:03] Christina: Yeah, you can get for $25 a couple times a year, like $25. And I’m like, you can’t convince me that this is eight times better because it’s not. Um, it’s not. Um, and uh, so they realized, oh, most people have smart TVs and Rokus and other stuff. So if we actually want people to watch our originals, we have to come out of our bubble and, and make iTunes for windows. [00:42:26] Christina: Um, which, you know, that, that’s a throwback to the iPod. The whole reason the [00:42:30] Jeffrey: Yeah, totally. Totally. [00:42:32] Christina: for Windows period. Um, it, it, it remained a Mac only thing. Apple as a company would not exist the same way that it does today. Anyway, that, that [00:42:41] Jeffrey: You wanna, oh. [00:42:42] Brett: to be fair, I own a stick. I have an Amazon Smart tv, I have a Roku, I have two Rokus and two Apple TVs. And I would by far prefer always to use the Apple tv. [00:42:57] Christina: I don’t disagree. [00:42:58] Brett: partly the, the [00:43:00] Touchpad remote is a big part of that. Uh, and the interface that’s really designed to work well, uh, with like touchpad thumb navigation, um, it’s, it’s, it’s perfect. [00:43:10] Brett: It has its shortcomings for sure, [00:43:13] Christina: and [00:43:13] Brett: I, I don’t see things like the stick beating it out in a lot of the areas. It sucks [00:43:18] Christina: no, I, I don’t, I totally agree with you on that. I’m just saying if you’re trying to convince somebody to buy one of these things, for a lot of people, $200 [00:43:27] Brett: Okay, so, so it’s better, but maybe not $125 [00:43:31] Christina: That, that’s my point. That, that, that, that’s my point. It, it, it’s better, but it’s not eight times better. Like if I can get one for $25 and one is $180, like y that, that, that’s my argument. So they make the apps now for those things, and you can access, what’s great about it, you can access all the original content, but what’s better is you can also access your library content. [00:43:51] Christina: And that to me was what was kind of the game changer. So I travel with, uh, especially when I used to do international travel. I travel with a, a fire tv. [00:44:00] And I was, I would like it because I was like, oh, now I can watch my massive, um, like library of, of content that I’ve bought over the years through [00:44:11] Jeffrey: Yeah, it is massive. I remember, I [00:44:13] Christina: And, and yeah, it’s like, you know, it, it, and it’s massive, but it’s not like that bad. It’s [00:44:18] Jeffrey: it makes sense year over year given the time you’ve been [00:44:21] Christina: Totally. And, and also they have sales and so, but, but it’s also one of those things I’m like, honestly, like, because some people are like, well, maybe you just have too many things in your, in your library and that’s why you can’t access them. [00:44:31] Christina: And I’m like, that’s not an excuse. Um, uh, especially when I buy them from this company. But, um, if you do, if you do run onto that problem, You can use the iTunes store apps on Apple TV where you can then have to go there to your purchases section and it’ll show you your purchases. And then you can play it that way if the TV app for some reason is not working on your Apple tv. [00:44:52] Christina: But, uh, if you’re using a Roku or a Fire Stick or whatever, um, it should work. And if it’s not working on [00:45:00] your Mac, uh, as a l was smart enough to No. Just restart. [00:45:05] Brett: I, um, uh, apple TV was not on our list of things to talk about, but I did wanna mention, uh, on my last trip to Michigan, um, I packed our Apple TV and an H D M I cable, and I was, I was really thankful for it when we got to the Airbnb and they had a big screen TV mounted on the wall and I could just plug in my Apple TV and it felt like being at home, all of my, all of my favorite, all my logins were already set up for Hulu and Netflix and all of the Apple TV apps were available. [00:45:38] Brett: My, I got my Plex server working. I could remotely access, uh, my friends and my home analogy plex and yeah, it was Entertainment Central. [00:45:47] Christina: No, I, if you’re traveling in the US I think that traveling with an Apple TV is fine. My one thing would be if you’re going internationally, maybe not if you’re wanting to use a VPN of any sort or if you’re at a hotel, this is the one thing. If you’re on a [00:46:00] normal, like non captive, I, um, uh, like wifi network, apple tv, traveling with it is great if you’re on a captive network. [00:46:07] Christina: Um, the Apple TV does not like that. And so getting that connected is a pain in the ass. That’s why I like the Firestick. And actually Firestick has now become a little bit on some networks complicated too. So Roku is ironically the best choice. So, which is my least favorite. But if you’re gonna be at a lot of hotels, um, uh, take, take my advice and, and get a Roku or a Fire Stick because the captive network support, that’s what you want. [00:46:32] Christina: Cuz otherwise you’ll have to do like create, try to create like a. You know, a, a a, a separate network connection between like your, your laptop and your, your, uh, um, apple TV in the hotel to like bypass the fact that you can’t log in to their stupid like system, um, [00:46:53] Brett: Hotels have horrible, horrible, what, what are they called? The, you just said it, the name for the networks captive. [00:47:00] They h I hate, I hate hotel wifi. Um, I have a Roku with a Gyroscopic remote. Uh, like you can use it almost like a we, and you can like move stuff around on the screen by Mo. Yeah, it, it, it’s handy. [00:47:14] Brett: But yeah, Roku’s not, not great software [00:47:17] Jeffrey: hated that feature on the, we though, if I’m not lying. [00:47:20] Christina: The, um, the, I think what l the lg, it’s not gyroscopic, but they have like a similar thing, like some people love it, some people don’t, where like you can kind of mo but it is sort of gyroscopic, I guess, where you can kind of move the remote to certain ways and then it’s got like this also, you know, this little cursor thing that you can use. [00:47:34] Christina: And I always have to try to like, [00:47:36] Brett: accelerometer [00:47:37] Christina: That’s what the word is, accelerometer. That’s, that’s correct. Um, and, uh, I, I understand why it’s useful. I also understand why my dad hates the LG remote and, and uses instead like the com. He uses like the Comcast, Comcast, like the Xfinity Box to access all of his apps. [00:47:56] Jeffrey: Also terrible. [00:47:57] Christina: it’s terrible and it’s slow. And I’m like, use the one built into [00:48:00] your very nice television, or use the Apple TV or the Fire Stick cuz I bought you both, um, you know, use, use one of those. But, but, uh, that’s, he doesn’t quite get that. He, he prefers like the, the, the Comcast interface. [00:48:17] Jeffrey: I hate those, uh, those like the, we control, I have a tremor and so it’s just a [00:48:22] Christina: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. [00:48:26] Brett: let’s [00:48:26] Jeffrey: were gonna talk about stage [00:48:28] Brett: Yeah, let, let’s, I don’t think we’ll have to spend long on [00:48:31] Jeffrey: No. [00:48:32] Brett: but [00:48:32] Jeffrey: Can I just say why I brought it up? Like I didn’t, I’ve stopped following, um, the OS updates. I mean, I, I update, but I don’t look for anything special anymore. [00:48:42] Jeffrey: Cause I just, it’s been a [00:48:43] Brett: You don’t read all the release notes? [00:48:45] Jeffrey: I don’t, I used to, I used to as of like two years ago even. But anyway, I was like, what’s this stage manager thing? Like maybe this is cool. And I turned it on and I was like, Immediately, like I was like my grandma with the VCR remote. I was like, I fucking need a [00:49:00] flashlight. [00:49:00] Jeffrey: And what are all these buttons? And it was like, it was like how maybe you would’ve imagined a heads up display in 1975 is how it felt. And I was just, I got out of there so fast. I’ve never rejected something kind of native to the max so quickly, um, or to the os. So anyway, that’s why I brought it up. What the hell? [00:49:21] Brett: And my response was like, I don’t use it. I, I tried it as well. Um, I don’t think I understand. Like on a Mac, on a phone, it makes sense that I would, I would want, you know, one or two apps connected together, split screen on an iPad and, and switch between like, pairs of apps. But on my Mac, I use everything all at once. [00:49:46] Brett: Um, there’s like never a time. I don’t want access to other applications windows. It’s why I have 2 32 inch displays. Um, and, and I don’t like the idea that you can’t easily access another [00:50:00] running app because you have to switch stages. [00:50:03] Jeffrey: That’s what blew my mind. I was like, are you serious? Is there any way out of this help help. [00:50:07] Brett: And I did however, think it was better, uh, in execution than spaces. [00:50:14] Brett: Um, I spaces like great idea and, and like I was, I was using whatever the X Windows version of spaces was way back on Linux in high school. And, and it was cool to see it come to the Mac, but the fact is like, like I said, I have two 30 inch, 2, 2 32 inch displays and I just have everything open and spread out. [00:50:37] Brett: And the idea of like separating into different spaces just doesn’t make sense for my brain. That’s like, I minimize, you know, like I’ll hide all apps and just load up what I need. Uh, but I don’t wanna like flip between, especially once you get more than two, like two spaces. Sure. If you have a set of apps that are less accessed and all go together and belong on a space, [00:51:00] great. [00:51:00] Brett: But you have to flip through more than one space and it’s so confusing. [00:51:04] Christina: I totally agree. And then I’ll forget like that I have an app open in a space. This is what my problem with spaces would be, and it just doesn’t work with my brain. I’m the same way as you. And it like you. In high school, I really liked having separate virtual desktops. That’s what it was called. [00:51:17] Christina: And Linux, I really liked that idea. Um, but for whatever reason, may, maybe it’s the Mackin implementation, maybe my brain and the way I use things is different. Maybe, you know, I wasn’t using multiple monitors when I was using Linux, that’s for sure. Um, and certainly not as big of screens as I have now. But now it’s like I forget that I have it open on a space. [00:51:38] Christina: It’s all open up another instance of an app, you know, on like my main thing, and then forget about it. And then accidentally it’s like swipe over. It’s like, oh, okay, but that’s not where the tab that I wanted was, or that’s not where the document that I wanted was. It’s on this other thing, you know? And so you wind up, at least for me, I wind up recreating spaces that are all identical to one another. [00:51:57] Christina: But with all different things. So it was [00:52:00] just like the worst case scenario. You’re literally not benefiting from anything. Cuz like I understand the point being like, oh, I have this set of tasks for this set of things. [00:52:08] Brett: Right. Context if they, if they neatly fit into different contexts. Sure. But I never have distinct con context, like I’m [00:52:18] Christina: Well and for me, like it would automatically, like if I would say, okay, I’m going, if I had spaces enabled a certain way, and if it’s like, okay, I need to go into this web browser if it automatically took me to that space. [00:52:28] Brett: Oh, okay. So I do have context, like podcasting is a context for me. And the only apps that I ever access while podcasting are Chrome, where we do a recording quip where we have our show notes and my browser. And I could easily, and it would be cool to have a separate browser window with just, with just tabs from the podcast. [00:52:51] Brett: Yeah. [00:52:52] Christina: does that and I love it. [00:52:53] Brett: But I could just open up a new Firefox window in another space, and any tabs I created would be in that [00:53:00] window. So it, that is a case where I could see, but I use bunch for that. I use bunch to literally like quit all the, all my other apps. So I have all the bandwidth possible, um, and just switch into the podcasting context. [00:53:13] Brett: But I could see that with spaces. But speaking a bunch, one of the requests I get very often is how do I open, uh, a particular app on a specific space or, uh, can you interface with stage manager? And the answer to both is no. Like Apple has never provided any kind of accessibility or automation workarounds for dealing with spaces. [00:53:38] Brett: Much like focus modes like you. I focus modes is even worse. Like I should be able to, from an automation perspective, be able to, uh, to access focus modes, uh, without using shortcuts. Like you can do some stuff with shortcuts, but yeah, it’s just, it’s annoying. [00:53:58] Christina: but, but stage [00:54:00] manager, like in some ways is even more egregious than spaces to me. Cuz spaces is one of those things that I can kind of like turn off and kind of like, you know, I forget that it even exists. You know, I, I stopped activating it or, or whatever, you know? And, um, I, I, I don’t like have to feel like I, I deal with it. [00:54:15] Christina: Like you have to deal with it from a support issue, but like, me as a human, like if, if I’d forgotten. I’ve forgotten about it, you know, unless I accidentally click like the plus, you know, button when I, when I’m, um, doing Expose is that the, the mode where you can see all your open windows, because that I do love, like I love Expose. [00:54:30] Christina: Um, but, but unless I accidentally click on like a plus, you know, menu and add another desktop and then when I’m swiping I’m like, God, what did I do? You know, I’m fine. But stage Manager, you know, it was like touted as like this new like better windows management thing, which in my opinion, like Mac os desperately needs like a better like Windows manager. [00:54:50] Christina: And it, like, I, it just does, and, and it, but it was also touted as being this thing that would work really great on the iPad. And then on the iPad it’s even worse than it is on the Mac. And it was so bad on [00:55:00] iPad os that, that uh, uh, Federico Vichi Uni Max stories, who’s like Mr. iPad, like railed against it and they didn’t release it. [00:55:08] Christina: Like they had to hold it back a while until it got better, but it’s still not good. And I’m talking about somebody who has an M two. You know, um, iPad Pro, like, literally like the latest iPad Pro, and it’s like the performance is not good, but then the utility, like, I, I just, I understand what they’re trying to do, but to your point, Brett, like, you’re like, oh wait, so I can’t do this very basic thing that I thought that I would be able to do, you know? [00:55:34] Christina: Uh, it, it’s bad. It’s really bad. [00:55:37] Brett: Did Vichi write about this? Should I find something for the show [00:55:41] Christina: I’ll find it. Um, I’ll find an ad, but yeah. Um, why do you think though, like Windows and I’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to give like, my former employer some credit here, like Windows 11 especially, but also with power toys, like, they’ve now added really good [00:56:00] tiling kind of windows managed support, like into the os like, uh, both into the, you know, Uh, the built-in stuff, um, for, for, for the Snap modes. [00:56:10] Christina: But now with power toys, you can go even further and it is truly like, you know, uh, uh, a Ty window manager, like for Linux or whatever. But, um, at an OS level, I’m very pretty like, and I know that we have third party apps on Mac Os, but like, doesn’t that just seem like this is like low-hanging fruit that Apple could just do to really Im [00:56:31] Brett: Yeah, they could, they could Sherlock Moom, which would be pretty amazing. But I really don’t think if they build it into the os I don’t think it’ll be better than Moom. Um, I love Moom to death and, and better touch tool with, for window snapping and like hot corners where you can like drag a window into a certain area and it will expand to fit, you know, a quarter or a half of your screen. [00:56:54] Brett: Like that kind of stuff. I have no problem using a third party utility for, [00:57:00] um, yeah. [00:57:01] Christina: I don’t have a problem with it. I just, I wonder, like if you, you clearly, they, they recognize that window management is a problem for them to create something like stage manager. Right? And, and, and in spaces before that, like you clearly recognize that it’s a problem. So if you’re gonna create stage manager, which is a mess, why would you not? [00:57:17] Christina: I, I guess in my mind, I just don’t understand the priorities where you see all of the third party things like Moom and whatnot, and you see that that’s a direction that that works and that makes sense. But then create this completely, in my opinion, just like over designed and under, like, both over and Underdesigned like UI paradigm that you’re not even gonna have an p i for like, [00:57:39] Brett: I will, I will say, and I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed this, but on, and I think it started a couple versions ago, but if you have two windows on your Mac desktop and you drag them near each other, the edges will stick. There’s this fine, and you can, I mean, just drag a little bit farther and it’ll go past it. [00:57:57] Brett: But if you lightly drag two windows near each [00:58:00] other, you can easily align them. Um, that’s, that’s a nice touch. It doesn’t go in anywhere near your addressing your concerns, but little, little touches like that. I, I do impress me about the os. [00:58:12] Christina: Yeah, I agree with that. Like that I really do like, like the fact that, like you said, you can get them so that they, you know, they, they, they touch or whatever. And I really do like that, but I just, I, I just look at like, it’s like you’re so close. You know what I mean? [00:58:24] Brett: Yeah, [00:58:25] Christina: Like, and then, and then you give a stage manager, [00:58:29] Jeffrey: That’s what I was thinking. What the fuck is this? [00:58:32] Grapptitude [00:58:32] Brett: your gratitude this week is stage manager. [00:58:34] Christina: ha ha. [00:58:36] Brett: should we, uh, should we do a gratitude? [00:58:38] Christina: should actually, [00:58:39] Brett: Um, I, I will kick it off. My, mine will probably not take long. Um, I’m going with, uh, Microsoft Word this week. [00:58:48] Jeffrey: Yes. [00:58:49] Brett: I’m just kidding. [00:58:50] Christina: I was gonna say that, that doesn’t sound right. [00:58:52] Brett: That doesn’t sound right. Um, no. I’m gonna go with an app called Code Runner. Um, I, I used to know the developer and I’ve forgotten [00:59:00] who it’s by. [00:59:00] Brett: Hold on. Code Runner about Code Runner. Oh, Nick Nikolai Crill. Um, So this is a little app that basically gives you an r e p l a rep for a bunch of different languages, and you can, it’s got a nice editor with, uh, code completion and syntax highlighting and everything. Um, and you can write your code for like Python or Objective C or Swift or Ruby, and you can instantly run it and get console output, um, as you, as you work. [00:59:37] Brett: And for, uh, hammering out an idea, uh, like I love it for JavaScript stuff too, although, uh, VS. Code and Sublime Text, both have pretty good res for JavaScript, um, and, and, uh, accessing the Chrome console. But, um, for, especially for like Python, which I’m not great at and need to test my work often in, [01:00:00] um, the Code Runner is just a, a very well done tool that fits a very specific need. [01:00:09] Jeffrey: Awesome. Yeah, it’s been solid forever. [01:00:12] Brett: It has and it, it, it, it improves, uh, slow more slowly these days. Uh, but it is, it is, uh, it is solid. It has been solid, and it has improved over the years. I don’t think it’s on Setapp, is it? [01:00:27] Christina: Uh, it is [01:00:28] Jeffrey: It is. Yeah. [01:00:29] Brett: there you go. Setup or code runners on setup. [01:00:33] Christina: yeah, so if you are a setup subscriber, which man I love setup. That’s just like [01:00:38] Jeffrey: So good. [01:00:39] Christina: unpaid, just like promoted, like that completely unpromoted, but just completely like genuine, like love [01:00:46] Brett: I recently revised the script I wrote that Will, you can run it and it will tell you what apps are on your system that are also on setup so that you can choose to run the setup version and thereby give part of your setup [01:01:00] subscription to. The developers, uh, as a, as a subscription fee. Um, which only makes sense because set up versions are fully unlocked. [01:01:09] Brett: Uh, and, and there’s no, if, if an app has a subscription model with a pro level, that’s what you get on set app, you get the pro level. Um, but I, I revamped it or I revised it with some corrections that I got from, uh, from users, um, uh, via Macedon. And um, I had a couple of people contact me because they ran it and it told them like 20 of their apps were on setup. [01:01:35] Brett: And they’re like, well, why would I pay for setup if I already own all these apps? But I just want to clarify that this script is to tell you how you could take apps you own and, and give the developers more money. But there are a couple hundred apps on set apps, and this script will not tell you all the apps that you could be using that you don’t already own. [01:01:57] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, uh, [01:02:00] can I say two things about code? [01:02:01] Brett: Yeah. [01:02:02] Jeffrey: One is as soon as you open it up, if you’ve never used it, go into, they say settings in the, in the top, in the menu bar, but it’s called preferences in the actual preference window. I don’t know what that’s about. Um, but anyway, edit file type associations. [01:02:18] Jeffrey: It’s on the first page at the bottom. And just make sure that everything is unchecked so that you don’t start opening, um, code files in Code Runner I did for the longest time, I didn’t think to look at that and it, I would like, I don’t want this anymore. It’s driving me crazy. [01:02:31] Brett: I kept, I kept forgetting, like I, I had not set yaml. Um, so every time I opened a config file code runner would pop up and I, I rarely want Code Runner to be the default editor for any file type. Like I intentionally open Code Runner. So yeah, di disable all of those file type associations. [01:02:51] Christina: Speaking of that, isn’t there a Mac app that will tell you like what your default apps are or that makes [01:02:59] Brett: There used to [01:03:00] be, uh, it was originally called RC default app. Um, there’s a new version rewritten in Swift, and it might be called Swift Default App. I, I would’ve to look it up. Um, I’ll, if I find it, it’ll be in the show notes, but yes. Um, RC default app was awesome for, uh, doing some very system level adjustments to what, uh, file types are associated, uh, what, uh, bundle IDs are associated and even like protocols, like if you want like a d different handle handler for like mail to or FTP protocols, and you could set all that in there. [01:03:36] Brett: And there is an updated version of it. I’ll have to find it. [01:03:40] Christina: Okay, cool. Yeah, cause I was gonna say, I remember there being like a better version, um, or a better like tool for that. Um, and, and I couldn’t remember what it was because [01:03:49] Brett: So it, it was a, it was a system preferences, pain or like a plugin does system set. Can you even have plugins in the revamp Ventura system [01:04:00] settings? Like all of those apps are gonna have to come up with their own Oh, that sucks. I fucking hate, that’s, that’s what I want to bitch about with Mac Os. Right now, that system setting panel is [01:04:10] Christina: It’s fucking terrible and it’s not like it was good before. [01:04:13] Brett: they changed the name of it. [01:04:14] Brett: So all of my launch, my keyboard launching, like I’m used to typing sp so I had to manually assign SP to open system settings instead of system preferences. I hate that. [01:04:25] Christina: No, I hate it so much. And then it’s like, you know, you have enough muscle and like look to be clear, anything they changed it with, we would’ve had problems with because you get a certain amount of muscle memory and they would change the order of stuff. You’ve between OS versions even when it had the same over overall interface. [01:04:39] Christina: And that would annoy me cuz I was like, I, I don’t know. [01:04:42] Brett: so [01:04:43] Christina: you know what icon is cap? [01:04:44] Brett: there’s a setting and system preferences on previous versions to display. Alphabetically and I, that would be the first thing I always [01:04:51] Christina: Okay. I never [01:04:52] Brett: does move around. Um, and if it’s displayed alphabetically and you get used to it, it’s easy to find stuff. System settings I [01:05:00] could not use without the search. [01:05:01] Christina: No, you have to [01:05:02] Brett: the only way to find what you’re looking [01:05:04] Christina: No, you have to use the search. It’s, it’s good search, but it’s not like, but it seems so weird to me. It’s like, look, spotlight is fantastic and, and, and we love it. Um, and I’m glad it’s there, but I shouldn’t have to use a search thing to find like the settings paint that I want for something. [01:05:23] Christina: Like, to me, that’s just a sign of bad design. [01:05:28] Brett: Oh, the other J side note, I know we’re over time already and you guys haven’t done your gratitude yet, but um, Do you guys use full keyboard access? So in keyboard settings, you can turn on full keyboard access, which means that when a dialogue pops up, you can hit tab to switch between the buttons and then space bar to hit a button. [01:05:51] Brett: Um, and I had it enabled in system preferences, but it wasn’t working. And like it would ac [01:06:00] on some apps, it would work. In some apps it wouldn’t, and I couldn’t figure out why. But then I discovered that in, um, in, uh, keyboard settings, there is a, a shortcuts pain where you can assign system short, uh, keyboard shortcuts for apps and function keys and everything. [01:06:18] Brett: Um, in the, uh, keyboard, pain of the keyboard settings, um, there’s, uh, an option called, uh, turn keyboard access on or off. There was another one that was like, oh, change the way taboo’s focus and you can assign that to a keyboard shortcut. And I hit the keyboard shortcut that was assigned to it, and all of a sudden everything started working again. [01:06:47] Brett: It seems to function independently of the full keyboard access setting, [01:06:52] Jeffrey: Huh? [01:06:53] Brett: just in case anyone else is running into that. [01:06:56] Jeffrey: Yeah. [01:06:57] Christina: Okay. That is interesting. And, and that is, [01:07:00] uh, okay, [01:07:02] Jeffrey: We’re getting into the weeds. Everybody who wants to stay in the weeds, I like it in the [01:07:06] Christina: like in the weeds, uh, do you, do you have your gratitude ready? [01:07:10] Jeffrey: I sure do. Um, my aptitude, so I’m a member, owner of a research and evaluation. Firm that is a collaborative in, based in Minneapolis. We do work all around the world, and there’s about nine of us. Um, it’s all social justice based, uh, social justice based work. [01:07:28] Jeffrey: Um, and uh, anyway, so I have just tried Grammarly for business. We’ve always used Grammarly, like individuals in the organization have used it. But we’ve started to get, like, we’ve started to get like kind of more critical of how we communicate with clients or how we do sort of public facing communication. [01:07:49] Jeffrey: I remember who’s the, uh, journalism critic at nyu who, uh, [01:07:55] Christina: Jay Rosen, [01:07:56] Jeffrey: yeah, I remember Jay Rosen. I think it was him saying, you know, [01:08:00] in journalism you should treat. Thing you do as an editorial product, so your emails an editorial product, like whatever. Right now that really impacted me as a journalist, having heard that and changed me generally. [01:08:13] Jeffrey: Um, and we’re kind of like hitting that point in our work where we want to kind of treat it that way. I’m trying to talk people into treating it that way. So Grammarly for business, like I’ve used Grammarly forever, but Grammarly for Business allows you to basically turn Grammarly into a like Scrivener level, um, feature party. [01:08:32] Jeffrey: And, and it’s just like, it’s amazing. So you can create your own style guide, um, that is just like, it’ll just underline something because you know, like we, we’ve written things, we’re there and there is wrong, right? It’s like it just happens, right? You, you put the wrong there and you’re moving too fast, whatever, like it happens to a couple of our members. [01:08:49] Jeffrey: And so I made a style guy that’s like, Hey, if you’re using the word. E r e or the word there, e i r, you’re just gonna see it underlined. It’s like, Hey, is this the right one? You know? Um, and, uh, and then you’re allowed to, [01:09:00] it allows you to just kind of turn, um, features on. There’s about, there must be a hundred features that are like, if you wanna try to not use, uh, bi, you know, if you wanna use non-binary language or if you wanna like, uh, use your dates this way, or whatever. [01:09:14] Jeffrey: And so anyway, it’s been amazing. And I’m in the process of creating a style guide, which you can do in a CSV file and just upload. Um, their interface is a little clunky, but, uh, if anybody’s out there and has the, the funds or the need and a small business, or, which is what ours is, um, Grammarly for business is amazing. [01:09:33] Christina: Cool. So in Grammarly for business, do like, do they not now upload all of your stuff to their cloud? As for training stuff, like, can you at [01:09:40] Jeffrey: No, they, they do as far as I know. And I don’t know if business I haven’t gotten so far, cause I’m on the seven day trial, that’s a big concern of mine, so I should have said that. I only use it for certain types of things. I use it for emails that aren’t sensitive and, you know, and honestly I use it to teach myself. [01:09:57] Jeffrey: Like, I’m constantly learning. It’s like [01:10:00] it’s wrong a bunch of the time and there’s certain kinds of writing that it’s just totally inappropriate to go into Grammarly for. Um, it’s like working with a really stubborn copy editor where it’s like, hey, we have a voice, right? Like, and we wanna still professor voice, uh, don’t forget that. [01:10:14] Jeffrey: Um, but that’s really important to me. And I’m not sure of the answer. Yet, but I mean, I, I’ve gone so granular as like we’ve had, you know, we’ve had, uh, emails to clients that are just too informal, right? Like we just wanna have a record of just kind of formal clean correspondence. And in case for any reason something goes wrong and they wanna like audit the partnership and they’re like, wow, these guys have just been like writing us and being like, let me know Lmk, or like whatever. [01:10:40] Jeffrey: So anyway, if you wanna be uptight, which I do in this case, Grammarly for [01:10:44] Christina: for business. Um, okay. I’m, I’m, I’m interested in that. Yeah. Cause my, my only concern with Grammarly, cuz I think it’s a great product, but my big concern has always been like, okay, you upload everything that I write and, um, so like for business purposes, like we are absolutely not allowed to use it. [01:10:59] Christina: I [01:11:00] mean, I’m sure some people do, but it is, it is on our blacklist. Um, because, um, uh, the security audits have come back and they’ve been like, Um, and I don’t know if that was the, the, the personal version, the the business thing or whatnot. And, and I’m sure that, uh, we’re not the only, uh, organization and Microsoft was like this too. [01:11:18] Christina: I’m sure that those are not the only organizations that have those sorts of concerns. And I know that certainly a lot of places have those things in place for, for chat, G P T and, and um, and, and even, you know, things like, uh, copilot, which can be, uh, turned off. Um, and, and, and by default on business doesn’t send anything at all back to anything. [01:11:35] Christina: But, but that’s always like my, uh, my only weird thing with, with Grammarly cuz I find it useful is like, oh, I can’t use this for work because everything that you type in is used as their training set. And for, you know, uh, most of my work stuff, it would be completely fine. But there are some things that would be like, eh, you know, don’t, I don’t want that, uh, uh, used in some way. [01:11:59] Jeffrey: [01:12:00] That actually reminds me, like for I, we do some pretty sensitive projects, like on juvenile justice and stuff like that. And, um, we have sort of a, a document security hierarchy where, you know, you, you’ve defined like five levels of security and it makes me think that the most sort of permissive model could be a thing. [01:12:19] Jeffrey: Like in this you can, with this, you can use Grammarly, right? Like with this you absolutely cannot use Grammarly. So I’m gonna add that to the definitions. Once I research the security itself, maybe I’ll just decide to bail, but love it so far [01:12:31] Christina: Good. [01:12:32] Brett: a, I have a quick update. Um, you may remember. You may remember in the past we’ve talked about RC default apps. Um, [01:12:40] Jeffrey: wait, what does that mean? [01:12:43] Brett: the, it was the system preference thing we were just talking about. Um, [01:12:47] Jeffrey: I drifted off [01:12:48] Brett: yeah, no, I [01:12:49] Jeffrey: so I, I was standing in for the listeners like, oh man, this is good, but I don’t know what’s going on. [01:12:53] Brett: Um, it is called swift default Apps, the due Version, and you can use third party. [01:13:00] Pre preference pains in system settings. Uh, they show up way at the bottom of that horrible sidebar in system settings. Uh, but once you install swift default apps, which you can do with brew, um, uh, you get all, all the, all the usual internet, r i schemes, uniform type of Denis, and applications all, all configurable. [01:13:22] Christina: Now, is this the one that has not been updated since 2019? [01:13:24] Brett: Uh, yes, [01:13:26] Christina: Okay. Okay. All right. But it still works. Okay, well then that, that’s all I needed to know cause I, I found that, cuz it was funny, we were both googling for these things at the same time and I, I found that, uh, and I was like, oh, but this has been updated since 2019. [01:13:40] Christina: I wonder if this even works. So that is good to know that you can have also custom preference planes. Um, cuz that I, I was not aware of, um, I thought that had gone the way of the dodo so hap happy that that is not the case. [01:13:51] Jeffrey: I listened this time. [01:13:53] Christina: Um, [01:13:54] Brett: what do you got? [01:13:54] Christina: so mine is actually Moom, um, Honestly, we were talking about that and I was, I was like, [01:14:00] actually, you know, what Moom is is one of my, my favorites. [01:14:03] Christina: I’ve also, I’ve used a number of these different things over the years. I’ve used Mosaic. I’ve used, um, what was one of the other ones called, um, [01:14:12] Jeffrey: Oh [01:14:12] Christina: rectangle or something? [01:14:14] Jeffrey: something always back to Moom. [01:14:16] Brett: Magnet. There was magnet. Yeah. Moom. [01:14:21] Christina: yep. And, and, and, yeah. Magnet, that’s it. And, and so rectangle some of those things. And so I’ve used a lot of these things over the years and uh, and Moom is definitely the best. So, um, big, uh, big fan of that. If you’re somebody who wants kind of a tiling Windows manager experience on the Mac, that is, that is my pick. [01:14:39] Christina: Especially one that’s like pretty and like easy to deal with. I still feel like that should be like a first party feature. Um, and I, not that I want many tricks to be Sherlock. Uh, because I feel, I still feel like Moom could be better, could be like, made to be better than, than whatever they were to do built in. [01:14:57] Christina: But you [01:14:58] Brett: How, like what [01:15:00] more could you ask? Boom. To do for, it’s [01:15:02] Christina: no, no. What I’m [01:15:02] Brett: never talked about this. Are we Sure We haven’t. [01:15:05] Christina: I’m, I, I don’t think we have. [01:15:06] Brett: It’s not on our master [01:15:08] Christina: so no, I, I, we’ve talked about window managers, but I, or like Ty window things, but I don’t think we’ve gotten into this. I don’t think Moom could be any better. What I’m saying is I think that Moom could still be more advanced than what, [01:15:19] Brett: oh, I [01:15:19] Christina: what Apple does. [01:15:20] Christina: That’s what I’m saying. But, but I feel like there should be a basic thing the same way that like the, the default Windows 11 experience is superseded by what is then done by power toys. Um, and, uh, and I, I, I assume there might have been some third party, uh, attempts to, to do things on windows. Nobody is as good as power toys. [01:15:41] Christina: Power toys. It’s just, The tits. Um, but uh, yeah, I still feel, I still, I feel like there’d be a place where like maybe Moom would potentially be like Sherlock, but they, it would go above and beyond whatever Apple would do. I [01:15:55] Brett: Can I tell you, can I tell you my three, three favorite things about Moom? [01:16:00] Um, first of all, keyboard shortcuts. So you can, like, you can say, uh, you, you can draw, you get like a grid of your screen and you can draw in that grid, what like a, a window position, like maybe the left half of your screen or maybe like the upper right corner of your screen. [01:16:16] Brett: And then, uh, you can. [01:16:17] Jeffrey: into thirds. [01:16:19] Brett: you can assign keyboard shortcuts. So whatever the current window is, you hit the keyboard shortcut and it goes to that position on the screen. And I have a bunch of those in muscle memory as I move between windows. Second thing the, uh, it adds so that when you hover over the green icon in the traffic lights, like where the, where you close the window and maximize the window, uh, when you’re running Moom and you hover over that, it brings up a little shortcut panel and it has like this, it looks like a touchscreen on it, and you can draw in, like you click it and then you, you can draw on your screen where you want the window to go. [01:16:57] Brett: It’s very cool. And, oh, what was the [01:17:00] third thing? Um, oh [01:17:01] Jeffrey: that feature I now use more even than my keyboard shortcuts. [01:17:04] Christina: Yeah, same. To be honest. [01:17:06] Brett: And Windows sets, uh, well, I can’t, what do they call ’em in Moom? But you can, like, you can store, once you get a bunch of windows of specific apps in the positions you want them in, um, they’re called snapshots. Uh, you can take a snapshot and it will remember those apps in those positions. So the next time all those apps are running, you can trigger that snapshot and everything will go back to where you want it. [01:17:30] Brett: And I, I, I incorporate that into bunches. So it launches all the apps and then then uses AppleScript to tell Moom to move all the windows. [01:17:40] Jeffrey: The way I use that feature is if I’m working on like a project that requires, you know, a bunch of windows and I’ve got ’em all organized, um, I take a snapshot like that morning of the workspace and then throughout the day, once I sully it with other things that are open and whatever else, I do the keyboard shortcut for it and it just resets to, to where it [01:18:00] needed to be. [01:18:00] Jeffrey: And I can think clearly again. [01:18:02] Brett: Good pick. Christina, we had a lot to say about this. [01:18:05] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Moom very, very good stuff. It’s, uh, it’s both in the Macapp store and without it, I tend to, I don’t, okay. I know that we’re going long. I don’t buy macapp store versions of apps. If I can buy a non macapp store version, uh, where, where are you two with that? Cuz if anything, I, I like, I go out, I try to avoid the Macapp store version if at all possible. [01:18:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve transitioned to that. I mean, it was a couple years ago, but like, that’s totally how I, how I am. And, and in fact, the last time I used a profile to set up a computer, I was amazed. Cause I used like MAs, which is like, you know, and, uh, I was amazed at how few Mac store apps I had. Um, it looked wrong. [01:18:47] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett, [01:18:50] Jeffrey: I, I wish setup was a little easier to interact with, like from the command line or whatever else. But [01:18:56] Christina: Agreed. But, but, but I also understand that that would be like [01:19:00] difficult in, in a lot of regards. Like you could prob you could probably make it work. It is an education. Cause that’s the thing. It’s like you could, there’s a way you could make that work with Ruth, but it would be so much effort that I, that I, that I understand why that’s not like, uh, [01:19:15] Jeffrey: I wouldn’t want him to prioritize it. [01:19:16] Brett: the only, the only reason someone might prefer, uh, the Mac App Store is, uh, for updates, uh, for just having one place where you can go to keep everything up to date. But that’s what Mac Updater does, and, and it does it better. And like Mac Updater could do like your audio plugins and everything. Um, so no, I, I do not. [01:19:39] Brett: If, if something is available off the app store, I will buy it off the app store. That said, um, like NV Ultra will be released on the app store first just because from a monetary perspective, the audience to the, for the app store is far more built in and people, uh, like your average Mac user trust the Mac App [01:20:00] store more than they trust going to a website and putting in their credit card information. [01:20:04] Christina: See, that’s what I was gonna ask. Like, I was gonna say like, is that, I, that’s I guess what my question was, like, is that still the case? Because I, I, I could have seen that argument a number of years ago, but like at this point, a let’s, we’ve all talked about this over the years, but like, let’s be honest, like the quality in the Mac app store is pretty shit. [01:20:23] Christina: And, and it’s full of a lot of like, you know, [01:20:26] Brett: bad. [01:20:27] Christina: it, it’s, it’s like full of like my first app shit or stuff that hasn’t been updated in years. And then some really good things where the developers have to go around their ass to get to their elbow to make sure that it works correctly because of some of the a p i restrictions and other things. [01:20:40] Brett: And like when they, it used to be they would do these like featured on the app store content and they, and they would, they would highlight like an app I’d never heard of, and, and it would be a good find. These days they seem to have like these mainstays and they highlight their own products all the time. [01:20:57] Brett: Um, I can’t remember the last time, like something [01:21:00] like marked. It got highlighted by the App Store. [01:21:03] Christina: Yeah. And [01:21:04] Brett: still help reaching out to indie developers, but it seems less so [01:21:08] Christina: yeah, it seems less so, and I also, those are those things where like, you know, you don’t know, like I wonder how much that even does in terms of bringing people into it. Like right now there’s five ways to customize Word and it’s, you know, tricks about that. And I don’t know who cares about that. [01:21:23] Brett: Last time, last time Mark got featured on the app store, it resulted in about $500 over my usual monthly sales, which is for, for an indie app like Mark, that’s, that’s a sign, that’s a non-trivial amount of money. Um, it does bring in new users, but in general, like the app store is not my, I, I have no growth on the app store. [01:21:44] Brett: It’s impossible to find stuff. [01:21:46] Christina: which I guess that was sort of my thing is like not an it’s, it’s not that it’s non-trivial. I just kind of wonder like, at this point, um, and I know that there have been more of developers who’ve had to leave the Mac App store for various reasons because being there has, has been too much [01:22:00] of a problem, like having to do the work of managing both versions, sandboxing and, and, and, well, it’s not even so much sandboxing, it’s the app store way of sandboxing because, uh, you can still have a sandbox and like secured app, but then what the app store wants you to do goes like another level beyond that. [01:22:16] Christina: Um, so things like kaleidoscope don’t work, um, and uh, and, and things like that. But like, yeah, at this point I, I understand, I guess people doing it, but I wonder how much even modern Mac, like newbie, like Mac users, I, I, I guess there’s like, obviously with iOS it makes sense. That’s the only place you can go in. [01:22:38] Christina: The app store is good, but I. I wonder, I wonder how [01:22:42] Brett: in, so [01:22:43] Christina: right. But I wonder like how much people, you know, on like the, you know, the, the Normies are really actually even going to the app store. Um, I don’t know. [01:22:54] Brett: Set, set up is my largest source of monthly income now. Um, [01:23:00] yeah. Which I mean, like the sales have marked, have declined over time and the only reason set is the largest now setup. Hasn’t grown for a couple years. Uh, my income from it hasn’t. Um, but it states steady and, and it’s monthly recurring income. [01:23:17] Brett: And that’s worthwhile. Uh, kaleidoscope went subscription. [01:23:21] Christina: Yeah, it is. It’s gonna be going subscription, uh, with, uh, with the next version. Um, [01:23:27] Jeffrey: I bought, after I bought my expensive license. [01:23:29] Brett: And, and the subscription is not gonna be cheap. And I talked to, I talked to Florian about it, um, and they put a lot of thought into it, and I kind of get it because Mark, mark has thousands of users that I and I, I make about a grand a month on it. Um, even though like there are, there’s a, a small army of dedicated users that if I went subscription, I could be making a lot more money and I would have a lot more impetus to continue developing it. [01:23:59] Brett: [01:24:00] Um, and, and I’m starting to really see the wisdom of, of the subscription, uh, what do you call it? Uh, method, [01:24:10] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, um, it’s one of those things where like, I instinctively as like a user am annoyed with like the subscription for everything model. I get it. But I also have to like, understand well as an ongoing business concern if you wanna continue updating things and like Kaleidoscope and, and, and for instance, cuz I, I know we both talk to them, but it’s one of those things where this is an application that was always expensive that they took over, that had had three or four previous owners, had not been well maintained in years [01:24:37] Brett: And they fixed it and made a ton of cool improvements, like really [01:24:42] Christina: Really useful stuff. But also like, did you know the thing where they were un unbelievably, I think like, like good to the former owner. Like, you know, to people who had licenses before, like they were really good with support and other stuff, but they took this thing that basically even dead and had to do a rewrite. [01:24:59] Christina: Like I think in a [01:25:00] lot of ways it might have been easier if you had just started from scratch and said, let’s create a diff app that is, has similar features than trying to, to do what they did. And so it was a ton of work. Um, it, it’s an ongoing, you know, price concern. Um, you know, they had the, the Mac app store stuff. [01:25:15] Christina: The only thing, uh, I helped them with cuz they, they like let me know that it was happening. I helped them a little bit with the edit of their blog [01:25:21] Brett: Yeah, I, I did too. sent, they sent it out to all the, all the Mac writers. Um, I, uh, that does bring up one way that the App store is, uh, handy though, is subscriptions. Um, I, I, I used to be very much, I used to hate the subscription for everything idea, and it felt like, I felt like I was just constantly signing up for more and more subscriptions. [01:25:48] Brett: But I’ve gotten used to it. Like I get, I get receipts every month. I can keep track of my expenses. I know how to cancel a subs subscription. Um, most, most places give you a warning before your subs. If it’s a [01:26:00] yearly subs subscription, they’ll let you know in advance before that $99. Comes outta your account. [01:26:06] Brett: The app store makes it easy to see all of my app store-based subscriptions in one place, and I can just literally go down a list and cancel or renew all in one place rather than having to track down, uh, individual subscriptions that I bought outside of the app store. So that is a benefit to subscribing to apps through the app store. [01:26:28] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, that, that’s for sure. And that’s honestly what Apple is pushing on people. Like they want everybody to go subscription. Like, uh, particularly, uh, I mean I, I, I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think Apple cares that much about the Mac App Store, but it’s particularly one of those things that they’re trying to push everybody towards on, uh, iOS is, you know, first when in app purchase and now it’s like they want everything to be a subscription. [01:26:50] Christina: Um, cuz like, let’s be honest, that’s where Apple gets their money, uh, which is fine. [01:26:55] Brett: we, we, Fletcher and I both at the time, we started talking about how [01:27:00] we were gonna price NV Ultra. Um, both of us kind of were, we didn’t love the idea of a subscription, but the more we talked about it, the more it, it just made sense as a model. That’s the word I was looking for. A model subscription model. [01:27:14] Brett: Um, and it’s actually like, there are a lot of benefits to it, partly because it’s so compatible with the app store and, um, it’s the only way in the app store you can offer a free trial is if you have subscriptions in, in app purchases. Um, so, but I, I’m, I’m on board. I’ve, I’ve really come around on the subscription thing. [01:27:35] Christina: Yeah. I, I’ve come around on it in the sense that like, for apps that I care about and that I wanna do, where I get annoyed is if it’s an app that I don’t even know. It’s like I’m, it’s like I’m gonna use this twice a year. Like, I don’t wanna, I, I don’t [01:27:46] Brett: you sign up for the one month subscription and then try to remember to [01:27:50] Christina: try to remember to cancel Exactly. Or try to find another alternative or whatnot. [01:27:54] Christina: Right. Like, that’s where I think it’s hard for subscriptions to work. Like I think that if it’s gonna be something that you use ongoingly, I think. [01:28:00] Like on an ongoing concern. I think it makes sense and I don’t have a problem with it where it’s more, I think, problematic and, and maybe not, at least the way subscriptions work now, aren’t well designed for it, is that if it is like a one off utility, like I only use this a handful of times. [01:28:16] Brett: Wouldn’t it be cool if there was like a pay as you go, like a pay, like you wanna launch the app and you just paid 99 cents to launch it because you’re never gonna launch it again, or like, not, not for another six months. I definitely have apps like that, but I’m like, I might not use this again for a year and, and if I subscribe now, I will forget to, to cancel that subscription. [01:28:39] Brett: Yeah. [01:28:40] Jeffrey: Totally. [01:28:42] Brett: Yep. All right. Yep. We should go. [01:28:45] Jeffrey: It was a fun one. I gotta get outta here. [01:28:48] Brett: Yep. [01:28:49] Jeffrey: Get some sleep. You very good people. [01:28:51] Brett: some sleep. [01:28:52] Christina: Get some sleep. [01:28:54] Outro: The.[01:29:00]

Jeff’s gone this week, so Overtired returns to Original Recipe with Christina and Brett talking about Satanic Panics, TV, eating gluten free, and finding the shortest lines on your Disney vacation. Promo Swap The hosts of Techmeme Drive Home read all of the latest tech news so they can keep you up to date on the latest. Tune in every day for a full rundown of tech news with context and analysis. Timestamps [00:01:23] Taylor Swift and Satanism. [00:03:46] Spiritual Warfare. [00:07:25] True crime book adaptations. [00:11:24] Heart rate scare and medication. [00:14:47] Microdosing mushrooms for depression. [00:18:34] Airbnb problems. [00:22:16] Yeti’s welcome home kisses. [00:25:31] The influence of Keith Olbermann. [00:28:54] Road rage and relationships. [00:34:09] Party Down revival successful. [00:36:22] Promo Swap with Tech Meme Ride Home. [00:39:33] Gluten-free dining recommendations. [00:43:22] Disney World wait times app. [00:48:10] Interacting with the audience. Show Links Tailscale Cruel Doubt (book) Cruel Doubt (tv) Microdosing Shrooms Sports Night The Newsroom NewsRadio The Larry Sanders Show Shrinking BEEF Party Down Find me Gluten Free Disney World Lines Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript TV Party (Again) [00:00:00] Brett: Hey, this is Overtired. You knew that, but I’m, I’m just telling you, this is Overtired. And I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Christina Warren. Jeff Severs. Gunzel is out this week. He is simultaneously out of town and sick. Um, like either, either one would be sufficient cause to miss an episode, but he did. [00:00:26] Brett: He had to go for both. He’s an overachiever. [00:00:30] Christina: That sucks. It does look like he is very cozy like that. The photo he sent us from, uh, his cabin, um, uh, near the, the, the lake looks [00:00:39] Brett: Lake Michigan. Yeah. [00:00:40] Christina: Michigan looks great, but um, that [00:00:43] Brett: or some great lake. I actually don’t know where [00:00:46] Christina: I was gonna say, I don’t know what great lake it is, but it’s, it, it looks very lake like. It looks great. So, you know, love that for them, but hate that he’s sick. [00:00:56] Brett: I was, uh, I was just in Chicago, so I’ve, I’ve [00:01:00] seen the Great Lakes this week too. Um, yeah. So let’s, let’s start with the mental health corner. I’ll let you go first. I have some, I have some fun updates, you know, my usual shit. But, uh, where, how are you doing? [00:01:14] Mental Health Corner: Satanic Panic edition [00:01:14] Christina: I’m doing okay. I’m doing okay. I’m in a weird situation where, um, I’m trying to decide if I wanna talk about this or not. I don’t think my mom listens to this podcast. [00:01:26] Brett: I, I explicitly tell my mother not to listen to this podcast. [00:01:30] Christina: Yeah, I’m pretty sure my mom does not listen to this podcast, so I feel like I can. Okay. I need some advice from you on this. All right. My mom saw an Instagram repost of a viral TikTok, saw some other things where people have posted imagery from Taylor Swift’s concerts, like the current one. And she called me very upset, telling me that, um, she’d hoped I hadn’t already bought tickets [00:02:00] for us in Atlanta because, um, she’s concerned that, that Taylor Swift is, is promoting, um, uh, satanism and, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and like witching, like, like Wiccan shit. [00:02:13] Christina: Like, like, like, like that stuff. Because apparently there is like a moment of the show that has some like kind of illusions to. Like, I guess 17th century, 18th century, like witchcraft sort of stuff. And some woman on TikTok, uh, is, is convinced that, that it’s, it’s all a sign and, and talking about all these things. [00:02:38] Christina: And, um, I tried to like convince her otherwise, but I haven’t really talked to her since that happened. And, um, you have more experience with this than I do. [00:02:51] Brett: Yeah. [00:02:52] Christina: How does one convince their parents that someone is not a satanist? [00:02:56] Brett: it depends on how reasonable their parents are [00:02:59] Christina: Okay.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Brett: as far as I know. Your mom’s a pretty reasonable [00:03:02] Christina: She’s incredibly reasonable. Yeah. But I also like, don’t want her to be uncomfortable, but like, I, I also, this is like, just this is not true. [00:03:09] Brett: right. Well, so like for me, this would involve a whole discussion of the satanic panics that have happened in the eighties and are happening again now. Like there’s this whole resurgence of this, like, uh, ever since that little Naz video. [00:03:25] Christina: Right. [00:03:27] Brett: there’s just this whole, like the media is full of sat satanic images and it’s gonna drive kids to commit suicide and kill each other, and murders and mayhem. [00:03:38] Brett: Um, so that would be where I would start with my parents. He’s just talking about how destructive that was and how none of it has ever turned out to be true. But for my parents, it’s very much like they’re, they live in a world of spiritual warfare. If, if it’s not God giving them challenges, it’s the devil trying to keep them from God and like [00:04:00] literally everything they do in their life. [00:04:02] Brett: Is spiritual warfare. Um, and they just, they, they view the world in those terms. And, and that makes it very difficult to say, well, that’s not Satanic, when literally everything to them is either godly or satanic. There’s no like in between, uh, if you, if you have someone more reasonable, like your mother, um, just talking about maybe. [00:04:24] Brett: How accusations of witchcraft have never worked out well for humanity. Um, [00:04:31] Christina: Yeah, I, I ca I, I kept trying to be like, I was like, I was like, well, I guess maybe this is like Arthur Miller esque. I was like, I, I, you know, because if, if you squint, and the thing is, is that it’s, it’s during this one song, Willow, which she does have a, a video that she did some behind the scenes things in where there is like some like magical elements, mystical elements, and then there is like a, a, a. [00:04:57] Christina: Uh, something witch remix and I’m like, oh my[00:05:00] [00:05:00] Brett: Well, that’s, that’s where, that’s where the Satanic panic in the eighties began was with fantasy role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, and like, like it’s fantasy. You know, it’s, it’s fantasy, it’s a story. And also be sure to ask like, what harm is being done? Like, who, who is being, like, what is the end result of, say Taylor Swift did openly embrace Wicca, um, and, and proclaimed herself a Wiccan and used all that imagery, like, who’s it hurting, like is wicken or truly destructive force in our like religious world? [00:05:38] Christina: I mean, my mom would probably say yes. She would probably say that this is someone like actively trying to like impart the devil onto people or something. But, but [00:05:48] Brett: a little less reasonable [00:05:50] Christina: I mean, I think that she would like. Intellectually understand, like what’s the harm? But I think that where she would draw the line, she’d be like, but I don’t want to be a [00:05:58] Brett: support it. [00:06:00] Sure, [00:06:00] Christina: Like, like that, that would be the difference, right? Like it’s wouldn’t be like, but so anyway, [00:06:05] Brett: So you, you need to convince her that that’s not actually what’s that? Show her, show her some of the more ludicrous accusations that are [00:06:14] Christina: This [00:06:14] Brett: there right [00:06:15] Christina: okay, this is what I wanted to do. Because like in, in like the, the post that she sent me, I was like, this person has things like tagged MK Ultra. I’m like, mom, I’m like, this is, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, none of this is in any way accurate. I’m like, this, this whole thing is, is, is is ludicrous. [00:06:35] Christina: I. She’s on, uh, Taylor Swift is a Christian. Like, she’s not like, uh, she’s not a Christian artist, but like, she’s like, she’s, that’s how she’s like, defined herself, so I’m not gonna, you know, like question that. Anyway, the whole thing, I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone. I was like, what’s happening here? [00:06:56] Christina: Um, but I, but I appreciate your, the, the, the Satanic [00:07:00] panic thing, I think is, is good grounding because that whole thing was bullshit and. We actually listened to a true crime book about that when I was in high school. Um, that was, uh, that, that had made for tea. Movie was made about it. It was, it was a book called Cruels Out and, um, it, it, uh, I think the guy that, um, Janet Maslin wrote that book about, uh, Joe McGinnis, I think he was the author. [00:07:27] Christina: But, um, Or Janet Malcolm rather. Um, but uh, it’s called, uh, cruels Out and in the ma tv movie. The reason I remember this is because we all listened to this audio book on a, on a trip, and then I found out that like Blithe Dan and Gwyneth Paltrow, before she was Gwyneth Paltrow, like were in this like made for TV movie, like adaptation of it. [00:07:51] Christina: Which, know, in 1998 was like a really funny thing to. [00:07:57] Brett: Sure. Do you want to hear [00:08:00] what my mom came at me with this morning? [00:08:01] Christina: Yes. [00:08:03] Brett: Um, she, she reads poorly sourced articles and takes ’em as truth, and then when the conversation over breakfast on Saturday morning quiets down, she has been in the habit of like doing these. What about. Um, statements and apparently, um, and I don’t, I don’t know how much veracity there is to this, but, uh, she claims that Joe Biden just signed a law that will turn all currency in the US digital and the government will have full access to all of our money. [00:08:36] Brett: And then she follows that, like if everything kind of went silent, cuz I don’t. I haven’t, I haven’t read what she’s talking about. I don’t, like, I can’t, I can’t argue against her sources. My, my usual reply is, what are your sources? But I, I didn’t even have the energy for that. And then she follows it up with, and, you know, the I M F has an agenda to control the world or some shit.[00:09:00] [00:09:00] Brett: Yo man, so everything went silent and we all just sat there in silence for a moment cuz I wasn’t gonna feed her like conspiracy. And, and my dad’s like, well on a lighter note and starts talking about like home improvement or whatever we usually talk about. It was, my mom’s definitely becoming a conspiracy theorist. [00:09:19] Brett: Like she latches onto stuff and gets really angry about it and like wants to talk about it. [00:09:24] Christina: Right. Which, which I, this is like, this is the, this is the one thing where like I, I, yeah. I become like worried about this. Cause I saw what like, Talk radio did to my dad. But my mom, I’ve always thought it was like much more sane and much more reasonable. Um, and look, if she doesn’t wanna go to a concert, if she doesn’t feel like it’s gonna be comfortable or whatever, that’s fine. [00:09:51] Christina: I just like don’t want her to miss out on a good experience because of some insane bitch on TikTok. [00:09:58] Brett: Yeah, and, and some [00:10:00] unfounded fear for sure. [00:10:01] Christina: Exactly. [00:10:03] Brett: All. [00:10:03] Christina: All right, so that’s sort of my mental health update. I’m trying to figure out like how to like, you know, tell someone I love more than anything else. This is, this isn’t true. [00:10:14] Brett: That can be difficult when someone comes up with, when someone comes at you with something that’s so far out of left field, uh, it’s, it gets really hard to like argue. Like, I mean, you could just say that’s ridiculous, [00:10:27] Christina: I mean, I did, [00:10:28] Brett: but that’s ineffective, [00:10:30] Christina: but I also wanna be like, You know, like make her feel comfortable, compassionate. Well, I, yeah, cause I’m compassionate cause it’s like, look, I look, if I had like a deep seated belief and like I thought that I saw something that was like, oh well this shows something that is gonna be supportive of something that I am very much against. [00:10:46] Christina: Cuz again, like her thing would never be like, oh, you can’t go and this is immoral and this shouldn’t exist. It would be like, I don’t wanna be a party to this. Which is a little more reasonable. It’s still not reasonable to, I think, [00:11:00] take cues from anyone who uses the MK Ultra hashtag, but, [00:11:05] Brett: Yeah. All right. [00:11:07] Christina: all right. All right. Let, let, let’s move on to you because I, I wanna hear about your updates, especially cause you’ve got a bunch of things you need to hear about, Yeti, need to hear about, uh, what, uh, what Michigan was like, need to hear about, uh, your, your Adderall shortage. [00:11:19] Brett: yeah. So the mental health update is, is. Relatively short. Um, my, so I think I probably talked about it at the time, but a couple months back I went to the ER because my watch told me that my heart rate had been elevated, like over one 20 bpm for more than 10 minutes, and it wanted me to. [00:11:40] Brett: Like, seek help if needed. Um, so I did, I don’t fuck around with my heart. We have a history of heart disease in my family. I take these things seriously and I went to the er, they ran tests after tests and EKGs and X-rays and I was fine, like ev in my, my blood pressure and my pulse were all fine the whole time I was [00:12:00] in the er. [00:12:00] Brett: And they discharged me after a couple hours and. Uh, maybe follow up with your doctor, see if there’s something else going on. But, so I made a, an appointment a couple months out. That was the soonest I could get in to see my doctor. And then my refill for Vivance came around and my psychiatrist noticed this. [00:12:19] Brett: Heart issue that sent me to the ER on my, on my record with no follow up yet from my doctor and said that she wasn’t comfortable refilling my meds, even though all my test results are on there and she can see them. Um, she’s like, if your doctor approves, he can refill your, your meds, but my doctor will never refill psych meds. [00:12:42] Brett: Like he, he will always defer that to his psychiatrist. So that means fortunately my appointment is on Monday, so I’m only gonna be without Vivance for a few days. Um, and. It sucks because it leads to like suddenly [00:13:00] going off it, uh, the, the dopamine crash leads to depression and then going back on it can trigger mania for me, uh, being bipolar and whatnot. [00:13:10] Brett: Um, so that’s a little sketchy. Hopefully it’s just a, a couple day thing. I really hope this isn’t the start of another like drought. Stimulants. Um, but I did, so a friend I’ve been talking for a while about microdosing and, uh, a buddy of mine, uh, finally got his shroom growing operation up and running. Um, so I got my first like eighth of shrooms and have just been taking like maybe a half inch of stem. [00:13:45] Brett: Or a small cap a day for the past few days. And I don’t trip at all. Like I barely, nothing seems to happen, but it does seem to help my mood. Um, I’m a lot less interested [00:14:00] in things like alcohol, uh, when, when I’m doing this microdosing and I need to, I need to do a little more research and find out what the actual dosage should be and how you tell, like with acid, it’s easier to. [00:14:13] Brett: Have micro dot blotters, but with shrooms, like you never know the potency of the mushroom, so it’s hard to be like, you need exactly, you know, a half inch of stem or whatever. Um, so I’m still trying to figure that out, but it seems to be working, it seems to be doing what I want it to do, where it, it helps my mood, it helps my creativity without triggering mania. [00:14:40] Christina: Okay, that’s all really good. [00:14:42] Brett: And like I’m depressed enough right now that it’s, um, it’s, it’s a little hard to tell that it if it’s working, but I can tell the before and after difference when I take my daily dosage. Um, So I, I think it does elevate my mood a little and maybe a [00:15:00] little stronger dose would help me. But I definitely, especially in a workday, I don’t want to end up tripping. [00:15:06] Brett: Like, I don’t, I don’t need to be in a Zoom meeting with like hallucinations or anything. [00:15:13] Christina: No, [00:15:14] Brett: that would, that would suck. So, so I’m being very careful about it, but I really, I think, I think I’m on the right path. I think this is a good, uh, A good antidepressant, uh, treatment that works with my bipolar. So thus far I give it, I give it one thumbs up and we’ll hope for better results moving forward. [00:15:36] Christina: Yeah, for sure. Um, and, um, and I, I hope. Yeah, I, I, I hope you can like, find some sort of up, like decent way, like you said, to be able to, to microdose this so that it’s, you know, yeah. Not gonna inhibit your work because it sounds like it could be a great thing, but it also feels like this is what’s hard about this sort of stuff. [00:15:56] Christina: Like Ketamine therapy is a similar. Thing [00:16:00] I, although I think guess that’s a little bit different because you can kind of do it in, in, you know, like treatment periods of time and, you know what I mean? Like, and they’re like, okay, this will have these long lasting effects. Whereas like, the microdosing in this way, you have to really think about, okay, how do I get the, um, whatever the therapeutic benefits are. [00:16:19] Christina: Um, but you know, I don’t wanna be baked. [00:16:23] Brett: Yeah, exactly. Yep. It’s a fine line, I think. Um, I’ve never done this small amount of mushrooms before, so I don’t know, like where the cutoff is. I’ve always been like, yeah, I just, I’ll have to eat three and just like see what happens. Um, so this like, just try a little bit, uh, like I don’t, I don’t know where they’ll line is. [00:16:44] Brett: I don’t know where you actually start tripping, but. I may find it if I keep experimenting. [00:16:50] Travels in Michigan [00:16:50] Brett: So anyway, yeah, last week I was in Michigan. Um, I spent three grand, um, on a trip [00:17:00] to Michigan, which is if I were gonna spend three grand on a trip, uh, Michigan is not where I would choose to do it, but I had a good. [00:17:09] Christina: Yeah, tell me about. [00:17:10] Brett: we, uh, we had our first night in Chicago with, uh, Dan, and we saw Erin Dawson in the morning, almost saw, [00:17:19] Christina: How’s she [00:17:20] Brett: oh, she’s great. She’s great. She, she was having fun. Her band is going on tour. Genital shame. That’s why she was in Chicago. Um, to, uh, to rehearse with her, her new lineup. Um, And, and Dan and his, his recent wife Hyundai are, are doing great. [00:17:39] Brett: And Chicago is full of vegan dining and gluten-free dining. And it was, we had some great food, great dinner, great breakfast, got on the road. Um, our Airbnb in Michigan, uh, was. It. It wanted to be nice. [00:18:00] Like you walk in and the first, the first, you just come off the road, right? See your head for the bathroom, and the first thing you discover is like a heated B day with a dryer and everything, and you’re like, okay, this place is gonna be all right. [00:18:13] Brett: But then you go to the sink and you try to get hot water out of it and it won’t come out. It just stays frigid. So we discovered you only get hot water in the kitchen and the bathroom if the dishwasher is running. Um, and, uh, but there was always hot water in the steam shower that it, it was a nice steam shower, big place, big couches, big screen tv, uh, a dock outside that led to a nice lake and like overall, like on the surface, seemed nice, had some problems. [00:18:46] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say this. Okay. I’ve had this experience with a number of Airbnbs, which is one of the reasons why like obviously you get more space and it can be a better option in some cases than a hotel, but sometimes I’m just like, I would rather [00:19:00] get a hotel, if I’m being honest, because it’ll be one of those things where you can tell like, it looks great, the photos look awesome, cuz that’s all they’re doing it for. [00:19:08] Christina: They’re doing it for the photos, they’re slapping it together, swimming for the photos, and then they’re not fixing things like in this case, oh, by the way, if you want hot water, you have to be running the dishwasher. [00:19:18] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. And there was a, there was a bunch of stuff. [00:19:21] Christina: which, which, that to me like that, that signifies a pretty significant plumbing problem. [00:19:26] Brett: Yeah, [00:19:27] Christina: There’s something going on with like your, your hookups at that point, and I don’t know what those problems are or how to fix it. I just know that like, that [00:19:35] Brett: yeah. [00:19:36] Christina: my, my, my, my, my engineer like, you know, pattern recognition brain is like, oh, okay, that’s something. [00:19:44] Brett: Yeah. Um, like it was great having a whole house, um, having multiple bedrooms and room to have like L’s family over for movie nights, a whole kitchen. We could cook pizzas in and everything. We, uh, we, we, we made the [00:20:00] crust, we made our gluten-free crust and we baked them and set them on the table on top of parchment paper to cool. [00:20:07] Brett: And the kitchen table was this. Fake wood with cheap paint on it, and it turned white underneath where we put the pizza crust. Even though they were cool enough to hold in your hand and they weren’t steaming or anything and we just set them down, but they left these white circles on the table. So Ella and I compiled this whole list of everything that was wrong with the Airbnb so that if he came at us, For, for payment on that, I would just be like, well, you know, it was a nice state, but it would be a real shame to put all this stuff into a review for you. [00:20:41] Brett: Um, so we’re just kind of sitting on that. We haven’t heard anything. I think it’s fine, [00:20:45] Christina: No, I’m sure it’ll be fine. Usually what they care about are like the, the cleaning fees and like if you were to like, seriously break something like the other stuff, it, it’s unlikely in some of these cases that the, the owner even like, [00:21:00] Sees the place. You know what I [00:21:01] Brett: kind of, that’s kind of what I figured. Um, [00:21:04] Christina: yeah. [00:21:05] Brett: I did, I, I had tail scale set up and, uh, I, I was able to access my home network, my, all my, all my computers, including my sonology, all using tail scale, which is. Like, I’m used to setting up like a whole, uh, like dynamic d n s system and like, and like s SSHing and setting up all the ports and everything. [00:21:30] Brett: And with tail scale, it was just like to sign into my GitHub account and all of my, all of my network and machines were accessible and it was, it was really nice. Um, I appreciated that. And, and then there’s Yeti. The last part of my update, like Yeti was a trooper. Like we had a whole conversation before I left that, you know, asked him to try to stick around till we got back and like, but take care of yourself and you know, if shit [00:22:00] goes down, you have my permission to do what needs to be done. [00:22:03] Brett: And uh, he seemed to take that to heart and. My, our house sitter sent us pictures like every day of like Yeti eating and like sleeping under blankets and like curling up with her. And uh, and I got home and he was in great shape, like climbed on top of me and just kept giving me nose bumps for like, for like 20 minutes. [00:22:26] Brett: He just kept like bumping my nose with his nose, uh, which is his way of like giving kisses cuz he knows how much it annoys me when he starts licking. So he is learned to just bump my nose and it was just constant. Like, he just kept coming back and being like, I’m so glad you’re home. It was very nice. [00:22:43] Christina: Aw. All right. Well, I’m glad he’s doing okay, but that, that, that has to be so nerve-wracking for you. Like every time you even go for groceries, like, oh, you probably get [00:22:53] Brett: will he be? No, we go for groceries. We have to go to the co-op. Um, with all of our dietary [00:23:00] restrictions, grocery delivery isn’t available. Um, yeah, so we started watching Sports Night. Do you remember Sports [00:23:09] TV TV TV [00:23:09] Christina: I do remember Sports Night, Aaron Sorkin’s first show. [00:23:11] Brett: Yeah. And, and it has some, some of Aaron Sorkin’s best dialogue. Um, but it’s got a laugh track and it drives me nuts. [00:23:22] Brett: Like there’s obviously no studio audience. Like this is a canned laugh track. Why did, uh, like I think this was a nineties thing, [00:23:30] Christina: it was, [00:23:32] Brett: Just tell people something’s funny by adding the laugh [00:23:35] Christina: Right. Well, because, I mean, look, this was before they were doing the one, the, the, um, one camera sitcoms, um, and um, like, like a news radio, which is, is similar to sport science some ways, but was actually shot in front of a [00:23:49] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it shows. [00:23:51] Christina: And it does. Right. Um, but, but that was a show where I remember on the commentary tracks for, for that show on, on, when that came out on D B D, [00:24:00] Paul Sims, the, the creator, talking about the fact that that would’ve been, like, had they made it like in the early two thousands, like if they’d made it like eight years later, like after it debuted, like, you know, if they made it five years after it went off the air, it would’ve been a single camera comedy. [00:24:19] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but you know, when they made it, it wasn’t, and sports night, I think even more so like the second season, they, they definitely like reduced the laugh track more [00:24:29] Brett: I, I’m only on the first season, so I was hoping that would be true. [00:24:32] Christina: It, it, it is. But s sports night was, it’s, it’s such a shame cuz it was on A, B, C and A B. C had, like, they had no idea what they had. [00:24:40] Christina: And, and I, I don’t even wanna say that. Like they fucked up and that it was like this show that was going to be a hit. Cuz I don’t think it would’ve been, I don’t think there’s any scenario where that show ever would’ve been a hit. [00:24:50] Brett: could fly now though. [00:24:52] Christina: Yes, yes. But I mean, in that era, and I mean on that network and I mean in that, [00:24:57] Brett: Yeah, [00:24:58] Christina: Like, [00:25:00] because cuz it came out in, in 98, 99. [00:25:03] Christina: Um, it was, it was like a year before West Wing. And West Wing was 99, I think. Um, 99 or 2000. But, um, it was, uh, a great show. It’s so, it’s funny because I always mentioned sports people and I’m like, yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s his first show about Keith Alderman. Um, and, and, and, and people are like, huh? And I’m like, I’m like, this is how influential, like, like Keith Orman is. [00:25:31] Christina: It’s like he’s been the, the, the, you know, the, the, the reason for not one, but two A [00:25:36] Brett: the, the Muse. The muse [00:25:38] Christina: Muse. Absolutely. I’m like, like, absolutely. It’s like, you know, the newsroom and, and sports night. Like it’s totally, it, it’s like all, it’s all Keith Warman, but. Uh, no, but, but, but, uh, yeah, the show it, um, September 22nd, 98. [00:25:53] Christina: So, yeah. So when it debuted, like there was just nothing that you could, um, [00:26:00] there’s no way. I don’t think that. Uh, in that sitcom environment, like when News Radio, which was on a network that was better for sitcoms, which was, uh, N B C. Uh, but the, the schedulers hated news Radio was the real thing. Um, the, the, the network president didn’t like it, it did very well when it had a consistent and good time slot, but they, [00:26:20] Brett: so good. [00:26:22] Christina: News radios. News radios, and I think news radio could have worked in the nineties. Sports night. I don’t know, like. I, I feel like it would work now, and I feel like it would’ve worked like five years after it came out. But like, we needed Malcolm in the middle, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, like, like, like we needed that we needed, we needed brick teacher base as the office. [00:26:45] Christina: Like we needed [00:26:46] Brett: I’ve, I’ve gone back, I went back and started watching Malcolm in the Middle again, and it, it’s not like news radio totally held up for me. Like I, I breezed through, I binged like all of that [00:27:00] again, just this year. Um, Malcolm in the middle. It’s been a, it’s been like, uh, I got nothing else to watch. I guess I’ll watch him, Malcolm. [00:27:07] Christina: totally. But it is one of those like, like family sitcoms. My my point being though, like that was the first one like that in Scrubs and Malcolm in the Middle was before Scrubs, but they were [00:27:15] Brett: I had the same experience with Scrubs. Can’t do it. [00:27:18] Christina: Scrubs holds up for me, but I also insist on watching it with the original music, um, [00:27:24] Brett: Oh, I know we’ve talked [00:27:25] Christina: Yeah, we’ve talked about that. But, but Scrub, but, but, but, but, but Scrubs holds up for me. But both of those were like the first, like, you know, there was the, the UK office of course, but I mean like in terms of US tv where you were like, okay, we can play with what a sitcom is format wise, because Larry Sanders. [00:27:42] Christina: Didn’t have a laugh track and, and, um, uh, many of the writers in the Larry Sanders show also worked on News radio and, and then went on to like be people like Joe App Patel. Um, and so, but that was an H B O show, right? And I, I feel like Larry Sanders in many ways is sort of a, like, [00:28:00] if that, that approach had been taken, you know, um, like for, for Sports Night, I think sports, And if SportsLine were, say, on HBO o, that would’ve been one thing, but it wasn’t, it was on abc. [00:28:11] Christina: And so I think you needed like the Malcolm in the middle of the scrubs. Really, the Malcolm in the middle is to be like, okay, we can re, we can have a different thing than the normal, you know, four camera, uh, television sitcom with the laugh track. [00:28:25] Brett: Yes. Can I tell you about another show that I’m sure you haven’t [00:28:29] Christina: No, please do. [00:28:30] Brett: Um, there’s this new Netflix series. Mini-series show. It’s a show, it’s a series. They call it a series, right? It’s like 10 episodes. I don’t think, I don’t think like, based on the ending, I don’t think they planned for a second season. [00:28:44] Brett: I think it’s a thing, but it’s called Beef, uh, with Stephen Ewen and Ellie Wong. [00:28:51] Christina: Okay. Yeah, I, I, I’ve heard of this. I think. [00:28:53] Brett: Yeah, and it’s like these two main characters get into a road rage incident in the first [00:29:00] episode, and it becomes like they, they start getting each other’s like license plates and tracking each other down. And this weird relationship develops as like as the pranks or the revenge intensifies. [00:29:14] Brett: They also develop this kind of like respect for each other and. I won’t give away the ending, but like through the course of it, there’s absolutely a relationship between these two people who on the surface hate each other, want, want to destroy each other’s lives. And, and Ali Wong plays a, a rich woman who just became even richer and, and Stephen plays a. [00:29:38] Brett: Contractor whose business is failing and is scraping by and living in his, in an apartment with his brother. And like the two of them come together in these weird ways. And it is, I binged it over like three days and totally, totally. The ending is totally worth it, like it pays off. So if, if you’re looking for a [00:30:00] short run of a show, um, I found. [00:30:04] Brett: As compelling, if not more compelling than I found Wednesday. And I thought Wednesday was pretty good, but [00:30:09] Christina: Wednesday was okay. I, I like Ali Wong and I like Steve Wynn. [00:30:12] Brett: yeah, Ali Wong is so good in this too, like all of her like kind of, uh, neurosis, but confidence, like confident neurosis, that’s what I would call Ali Wong. Um, and it all comes through really well in this character. She’s in. She plays it excellently. [00:30:29] Christina: Okay. I, I, I, I will, I will give this a watch. I’m looking at this now. This was an A 24 show and apparently there was a bidding war. What’s interesting to me about this is, I guess it is just for movies, but I thought that Apple had some sort of exclusive deal with a 24. And, and clearly that is not the case, but it seeming like this would’ve been, it probably wouldn’t have had a second season either, but like this would’ve been like a good Apple TV thing. [00:30:54] Brett: Are you watching? Um, is it shrinking? Shrinking on Apple [00:31:00] tv? [00:31:00] Christina: am not, [00:31:01] Brett: It is really good. [00:31:03] Christina: are you watching new Ted Lasso? [00:31:05] Brett: Yes, of course. Absolutely. Loving it. Loving it. It’s maybe the best season yet, but, um, shrinking. Uh, I had this funny experience. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a fun, it’s a fun show and it’s about, uh, therapists and, uh, one of them is played by dude, from how I Met Your mother, like the big dude. [00:31:27] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:31:27] Brett: Meeting, forgetting Sarah Marshall [00:31:29] Christina: Jason Siegel. [00:31:30] Brett: Yeah. Thank you. Um, and then the other one, and this is the way l put it, uh, the, the elder therapist on this, in this group is played by the guy who starred next to Chewbacca. That was Elle’s description. Like, not Han Solo, but the guy who played next to Chewbacca and I think Harrison Ford would, would appreciate that, that that was how my girlfriend [00:32:00] knew him [00:32:00] Christina: I mean, I, I don’t know if he would, I, I, I mean that I, I honestly don’t know if he would appreciate that or not. I think that he’d be like, hi, I’m Harrison fucking Ford, [00:32:11] Brett: also, Indiana Jones. [00:32:12] Christina: Jones, [00:32:13] Brett: may, you may be familiar with my work. [00:32:15] Christina: I was gonna say, it’s like you, you there, there’s a bunch of other things. No, but I have seen, I have seen the trailers or the, the ads for this, but I haven’t watched it, but I, I have been [00:32:24] Brett: It’s good. It’s good. [00:32:25] Christina: good. Okay. All right. I’ll watch it. Um, [00:32:28] Brett: to it every week. [00:32:29] Christina: okay. Um, I will see if I have access to, um, all of, uh, um, I’ll see if I have access to all of those on, on the way that I have access to some of the press stuff early. Um, because my, my, my, my problem with this now, and I’ve become one of those people that I hate for certain shows. [00:32:51] Christina: I will absolutely still watch like week by week, you know, but when I’m getting into a new thing, especially like if I’ve missed it when like it. Started, it’s [00:33:00] hard sometimes I’m like, I just wanna binge it, but like if I get into it when it premieres, um, then I’m okay. Um, like, uh, the final season of succession is, is airing right now. [00:33:12] Christina: And so it’s like the best thing that happens on Sundays is, you know, like 6:00 PM uh, Pacific Time. I’m like, all right, I can fire up the H B O Max app. I can watch success. [00:33:24] Brett: What was the, what was the, uh, apple TV show with, uh, [00:33:30] Christina: Adam Scott Severance. [00:33:32] Brett: severance. Um, I, I think that has another season coming. [00:33:36] Christina: it does. [00:33:36] Brett: Yeah. That’s exciting [00:33:38] Christina: because they, uh, the [00:33:39] Brett: Party Party Down is back on right [00:33:41] Christina: is, I No, I was gonna say I [00:33:42] Brett: good. [00:33:43] Christina: No, it is so good. No, I was gonna say though, that’s, that, that’s the unfortunate thing about Party Down is that they couldn’t get Lissie Kaplan because she was doing stuff, but they had to work around Adam’s Scott’s schedule for a severance. [00:33:53] Christina: So like [00:33:55] Brett: yes, I totally miss Lizzie Kaplan. I, the show is not the same [00:34:00] without her, but it is still, it’s still very good. [00:34:03] Christina: Is still very good. and I, and I’m very, and I’m very glad that it, that it’s come back. Also, following up on a thing that I ranted about, Netflix did go ahead and just pay off the money. And now that they, they are the exclusive home of everything, arrested Development. So they took a arrested development off of Hulu, which fine, I don’t care. [00:34:23] Christina: Um, you know, and, uh, but at least seasons four and five are available. Um, so, so it did not expire and leave. They, they paid the money cuz yes, Netflix paid the money. It’s, I’m sure it was a very small amount of money to renegotiate on. And Disney has also made it clear that like they are okay with licensing things to other streamers. [00:34:46] Christina: It’s like they don’t need ownership. It’s like, and you already have part ownership of the last two seasons just. It’s the exclusive home, it’s fine. But, um, that made me think of that cuz I was like, oh, you know, party down. [00:35:00] Is I, I think that it, coming back, I think it’s, I think it’s more successful. Like, I think the episodes are better, uh, than rest of development. [00:35:07] Christina: Um, at least the, the first edit, I think when they reedited season four, rest development, season four was fine. I think the first frame of it is, I, I get what they were trying to do. It didn’t work at all. Um, But, uh, but yeah, no, I, I love Lizzie Kaplan. She’s about to be in. Um, maybe it has started, but, uh, but, but, uh, fatal Attraction. [00:35:31] Christina: Oh, no, no. It starts, um, uh, in, uh, like three weeks. They’re, uh, they’re doing a Fatal Attraction reboot on Paramount Plus, [00:35:38] Brett: All right. I have Paramount Plus. I’ll watch that. [00:35:41] Christina: I mean, s. [00:35:42] Brett: I’ll watch anything. Lizzy [00:35:44] Christina: Me too. B b. But this is like this, this is actually a really good cast. So it’s Lucy Kaplan playing the Alex Forest character. That’s, uh, um, Glen Close’s character and Fatal attraction. Joshua Jackson is playing. Dan, who was the, um, uh, Michael Douglas character and [00:36:00] Amanda, Pete is playing. Um, uh, Beth, who was the, uh, the wife who’s the actress’s name I can’t think of, uh, right now. [00:36:08] Christina: Um, so. I’m, I’m super into this. [00:36:13] Brett: Nice. Yes. All right. Um, should we do some gratitude? [00:36:19] Christina: No. First we need to do a, uh, promo swap. [00:36:22] Brett: Oh my God. Like the whole reason we did the episode this week was cuz we had a pro. Thank you so much. I’m, I’m so glad you’re on the ball. These mushrooms are not helping. [00:36:32] Promo Swap: Techmeme Ride Home [00:36:32] Brett: Um. So this week we are doing a promo swap with the Tech Meme Ride Home. When the New Yorker magazine asked Mark Zuckerberg how he gets his news. [00:36:43] Brett: He said, the one news source he definitely follows is Tech Meme. For four years now, the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast has been Silicon Valley’s favorite tech news source. The podcast has become so successful in fact that it launched a venture fund where the [00:37:00] listeners to the show are the LPs and the fund. [00:37:03] Brett: The tech meme ride home is like T L D R as a service. It’s not just the latest headlines from the world of tech, it’s also the context around the latest news of the day. It’s all the top stories, the top posts and tweets and conversations about those stories as well as the behind the scenes analysis. [00:37:22] Brett: Guests who have come on to lend their expertise include Andreessen Horowitz’s, Chris Dixon, and Bloomberg’s Apple Rumor King Mark Germond. The folks at Tech Meme are online all day reading everything so they can catch you. So listen to the One podcast. Anyone who’s anyone in Silicon Valley listens to you every single day. [00:37:43] Brett: Search your podcast app now for Ride Home and subscribe to the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast just in case Overtired has had not been giving you enough tech lately. [00:37:54] Christina: Yeah. Um, also it’s, it’s great, uh, TLDR podcast and it’s from, uh, Brian McCullough who, um, [00:38:00] is, uh, is involved with it, who, uh, did the internet history podcast, um, and the book, um, how the, how the internet was built or how the web was built or something. Um, Brian’s great. I’ve been on, um, his podcast a number of times, and, and Te Ride Home is a very good, uh, I hate to agree with Mark Zuckerberg on anything but. [00:38:17] Christina: Where I go for like my tech news and up and update and, and the, the Ride Home podcast is really good. [00:38:22] Brett: Yeah, that, that wouldn’t have been the opening line. I’d have gone for like name dropping Mark Zuckerberg as like your opening line for the promo read, but they wrote it. I went with it. [00:38:34] Christina: yeah. Uh, but, but it genuinely is like a website I go to that and Media Gazer, which is like the, the, the media version of Tech Meme. I go to those sites like nonstop. So, [00:38:45] Grapptitude [00:38:45] Brett: All right. So my gratitude, gratitude, um, my gratitude is, uh, an app on my phone that came in so handy on this trip. It’s called Find Me Gluten Free. [00:39:00] Um, or find me GF as it appears on your phone. And it is a comprehensive list of all the, it’s like Yelp, but for gluten-free dining. And it will find you all of the restaurants that either have gluten-free options or a dedicated gluten-free menu, or our dedicated gluten free. [00:39:22] Brett: And you can see reviews, you can read from actual. Like people with celiac disease that absolutely like have to know what’s gluten free. Like I’m, I’m sensitive to gluten. It causes me intestinal problems. Uh, but I will survive. But, but to have like people who can literally die from it. Writing the reviews, uh, gives me a lot of reassurance and it found us some amazing food that, that, like searching gluten free on Yelp did not find. [00:39:55] Brett: Um, so I, I highly recommend. Find me [00:40:00] gluten free. You can pay for like the paid tier seems to be really geared towards Celiac, um, and, and of less interest to me, like just the free version alone. Did everything I needed it to do. Um, Which is not to say I am opposed to paying for it, uh, just none of the perks of the paid version really seemed, uh, of importance to me thus far. [00:40:28] Brett: Um, so, so even if you’re, you’re gluten free and just want a free app to, to explore with, it is, it’s a great choice. [00:40:37] Christina: Fantastic. Fantastic. So, um, that’s really good, I think for people to, like, that’s, that’s a good thing to know, like, It’s good to have these sorts of alternatives to some of, like the, the big mainstays, especially, um, if they’re updated. Well, [00:40:52] Brett: Yeah, and that’s the thing, like there’s a big, there’s a big. Audience, big enough user base that it actually is very [00:41:00] complete and full of reviews. Like even more reviews for most of these restaurants than you would find on like Yelp. And, and I think that’s critical for an app like this is to have enough people, uh, submitting restaurants and reviewing restaurants to actually make it worthwhile. [00:41:16] Brett: And it, it’s pulled that off. [00:41:20] Christina: For sure. So my, um, pick. Um, but no, but I like that it, it, and it, I, like I said, like I think keeping like those communities, like active is the hardest thing, so, you know what I mean? Like, so it’s, I’m glad, glad that you found an app that has like a, a, a, a wide, uh, user base, and that’s really good. On that. On that note, I’m also going to have a um, uh, iPhone app. [00:41:46] Christina: Um, this was one that I used. When I was at Disney World actually, and, but it’s spring break. This might be useful to people if they are going [00:42:00] to like the, the, the Disney parks or, or whatever. Um, it does cost money if you wanna get the, the full benefits, but honestly, it’s worth it. So the whole thing is, is that, um, the, the. [00:42:14] Christina: Like default, like Disney World and like Disneyland app suck, like the Disneyland app from what I understand is better. And my, my past experience with that one has been better. But like the actual like Disney experience app for Disney for, for Walt Disney World and, and all those assorted parks in Orlando is terrible. [00:42:31] Christina: Like for as much money as Disney has, and for as much as you would think that having a good app experience would be something that would be really good for their bottom line in terms of having people spend more money and whatnot, they really. It’s, it’s bizarre to see a company that has like nailed every other aspect of the experience. [00:42:49] Christina: Just has like, the tech is terrible and like, like it’s, it’s both the website and the, the app. It’s just not great. Um, but one of the nice features about the app when [00:43:00] it’s working is that it shows you like what your line time is for various rides. Like, like, like what? Like what, what, what the weight is. [00:43:07] Brett: What is the app called? [00:43:10] Christina: This app is called, uh, Disney World Lines, um, parentheses, TPS from Touring Plans, but this is better than the actual Disney Experience app. [00:43:21] Brett: Yeah, I hear you. I just, I just said I was waiting to add it to the show notes. [00:43:26] Christina: No, I know, but, but I was trying to give some, but I’m trying to give some context to why I’m, I’m recommending this app because, because people would be like, why would I pay for this? When I can get in the Disney Experience app, I can get an update of what the standby line time is. [00:43:38] Brett: Yep. All right. [00:43:40] Christina: that time isn’t accurate. [00:43:41] Christina: Sometimes it is accurate, sometimes it’s way behind. Sometimes it’s, you know, like, uh, an actual line time might be more like 15 minutes and it’ll show 45, or it’ll show two and a half hours and maybe it’ll be like four. So what, um, uh, the, this, uh, this. App from touring plans.com [00:44:00] does, but it’s a, um, it, it’s lines is, is is their app. [00:44:03] Christina: They have a number of different ones. They have one for Disneyland, they have one for Disney World, and then they have their, um, uh, one for, for, um, Orlando. Um, it’s uh, it’s $18 for a one year subscription. And you’re probably only gonna use the app once. So I’m warning you on that. Right. However, similar to your, like a gluten free dining app, this is a crowdsourced thing where you can see the timelines for both attractions and for, for, for dining. [00:44:33] Christina: Um, actually where you can. Speed the various parks and you can say, this is how long you’re expected to wait. And you can get ride suggestions like based on like the crowds and based on trends and past days to figure out like, do I wanna wait in this line or do I wanna, do, I wanna wait in this one? And, and, and what’s the overall park busy level? [00:44:54] Christina: And so it’s really useful to be able to know, hey, [00:45:00] Like, and you can help it out. So like, it has a timer built into the app. So like, you can start the timer, like, I got in line now, and then I stop it when, um, you know, I’m getting off and it’ll let me know like how accurate, you know, like the, the, the posted time was. [00:45:13] Christina: And, and that feeds, feeds the recommendations. [00:45:16] Brett: That’s worth $18. If it saved you, like after what you paid for your, your Disney World Pass, if it can save you from spending four hours and align when you didn’t expect to for something that wasn’t like your primary focus for the day, that’s, that’s $18. Like you’ve saved that much money by like getting in shorter lines and taking more advantage of the park. [00:45:40] Christina: 100%. I completely agree. Um, my point was just that there, I know there are going to be some people who are just like, I’m not paying for this and this [00:45:48] Brett: I’ve al I’ve already paid to go to Tissie World. I’m not gonna pay for [00:45:52] Christina: I’ve already paid to go to Disney. I’ve paid a lot of money to go to Disney. I don’t, I don’t wanna, um, uh, do this. I [00:46:00] get that. [00:46:00] Christina: But this was, this was an app. Just you you’re talking about, um, um, being able to find, you know, uh, recommendations and ti and, you know, things are in food. Maybe think, oh, right. This was actually a really useful app that I, I used while at Disney. [00:46:15] Brett: Yeah, these are good, good travel apps [00:46:17] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually, uh, we recommended this one by, uh, by Corey Doctoral. [00:46:22] Christina: So thank you Corey, for the, for the, for the, for the tip. And, um, I appreciate that. And, uh, yeah, so that’s, that’s my pick. [00:46:33] Brett: Nice. All right. Well, we have a, a shorter, shorter episode this week, um, minus Jeff, uh, basically 15 minutes that, uh, That, that that would’ve been Jeff time if he were here. But no, um, instead we, that was a good episode. It was a little me media heavy, maybe. [00:46:56] Christina: No, I think it was good. It [00:46:57] Brett: of [00:46:58] Christina: No, it was a good return. It was, honestly, it [00:47:00] was a good return to form. Like I think this was good. This was like a classic over, uh, this look, again, this was like the, the original recipe, Overtired, the original configuration. We, we miss Jeff and, and we hope that his stomach is feeling better. [00:47:12] Christina: I think Jeff is definitely made the show better, but like, this is like a good throwback like, you know, season two episode of the. [00:47:20] Brett: we got some like Christina dropping knowledge about like nineties tv. Like that’s, that’s nostalgic for me. [00:47:28] Christina: Uh, yeah. [00:47:29] Brett: we just don’t do that enough anymore. [00:47:32] Christina: We don’t, we don’t. No, but I’m, because I’m gonna go back and I’m gonna watch beef now, which, uh, um, which is, which is great. Um, okay. I think I will too. I’m excited about that. Yeah. [00:47:44] Brett: Well, Christina, get some sleep. [00:47:46] Christina: Get some sleep, Brett. [00:48:00]

Christina interviews Jeff on the years he spent going back and forth to pre-war Iraq, and about his ill-fated post-war trip. Then it’s on to product placement in The White Lotus and, of course, Grapptitude. Sponsor Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired. Mental Chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. Join Khanh and Jules, people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chillness. Show Links Jeff on MSNBC in 2002 talking about a possible war with Iraq The Very Issue of Covert Action Quarterly that changed Jeff’s life Jeff reflecting on his time in Iraq eight years after the war: “The Baghdad I knew: Before and after the fall” Nintendo Switch Gaming Console Used by Fred Hechinger as Quinn Mossbacher in The White Lotus S01E02 “New Day” What game do you think Quinn played on his Switch before he stopped using electronics? iBinged iCarly – Quinton Reviews Rick Rubin’s series of interviews with John Frusciante on the Broken Record podcast Rick Rubin’s and Tyler, The Creator discuss Igor on the Broken Record podcast Grapptitude: Jeff: DevonThink Pro Christina: Typst Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript How Jeff Found Himself in Iraq (Again and Again) [00:00:00] Christina: You are [00:00:00] Jeffrey: ready, aren’t you? Oh, I’m doing [00:00:01] Christina: are ready. Yeah, I was gonna say, we’re already recording. So, and honestly, I don’t even want you to edit this out because this is just, this is, this is what happens when Brett isn’t here. [00:00:10] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired. [00:00:15] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren. Joined, joined by, uh, Jeff Severns Guntzel, former M MSNBC star, Jeff Severns Guntzel. Uh, gonna have that linked in in the show [00:00:26] Jeffrey: They gave Chris Hayes my spot. [00:00:28] Christina: I mean, honestly, you were robbed. Um, uh, because I, I, I really, I would’ve rather watched you with your indignant, um, like consternation at the prop wish guy. [00:00:41] Jeff’s Punk Rock to Iraq Origin Story [00:00:41] Jeffrey: I sent my co-hosts a video from 2003 in the lead up to the Iraq War. And I had been working with an anti-war organization and had been traveling back and forth to Iraq before that, before we knew there would ever even be any kind of war. Couldn’t even imagine. Um, and I [00:01:00] got to go on TV to be a person who has gone back and forth to Iraq and this was an MSNBC appearance that was so incredibly unsatisfying as those things I’m sure always are for anybody who truly cares about what they’re saying. [00:01:16] Jeffrey: It isn’t just doing it cuz it’s their job, you know, which is another kind of fun. Um, but you know, the thing that I, uh, we’ll, we’ll link to this, but as I look at that younger, younger me that like baby baby me, um, the two things I noticed that I still relate to is this sort of brooding. Stare a little bit down, but not all the way down. [00:01:41] Jeffrey: And then I’m sw, I’m swiveling back and forth in my chair. [00:01:47] Christina: That. [00:01:47] Jeffrey: it was so that, that stuff was so hard for me because the, you know, TV and radio wanted to talk about the politics of it and the [00:02:00] optics of it and all of that stuff. And like as someone who had been traveling back and forth to Iraq, primarily from 1998 to 2001, but then still worked for an organization that sent people to Iraq. [00:02:11] Jeffrey: Like, it was like, you couldn’t, this wasn’t a good sound bite, but like, I don’t want this war cuz I don’t want my friends to die. You know, like, [00:02:23] Christina: But you, but you were actually focused, you were actually concerned about the people on the ground, which is the part that people claim to care about, but it’s the thing that gets the least amount of attention. Like, you’ll have your one-off stories, you know, profiling this or that thing, and people will read it and like, oh, this is terrible, and move on. [00:02:37] Christina: But they, but, but, but it’s, it’s always framed in like the larger geopolitical terms, which on the one hand makes sense because I think if you had to focus on those smaller things, a, it would just be impossible to watch and, and impossible to even kind of grapple with who we are as humanity when we do these things, right. [00:02:58] Christina: So you have to, I think, take a big picture [00:03:00] approach if you’re going to talk about it at all, but, but B would also just be, is like, you know, If you’re not there, it, it, you know, it, it’s, it’s really hard to get those individual things out, but that is the price we pay. And now we are, um, the 20th anniversary was what, like two weeks ago. [00:03:21] Jeffrey: yeah. [00:03:23] Christina: Um, [00:03:24] Jeffrey: And we’re almost on the 20th anniversary of when I, when I arrived there after the invasion for my final trip there. I. [00:03:31] Christina: um, we might have talked about this before and if we did, I totally, I, I apologize for asking you again, but what was it like, how did you get into doing the work where you were going there? [00:03:42] Jeffrey: It’s a really. It’s a really funny, weird story. Um, so I had been in a punk rock band called The Freedom Fighters, which was not a terribly political band. Um, but our one political song we played in LA to a very small audience, and Zach de [00:04:00] Laco was in the audience from Rage Against the Machine. And we had this one kind of obtuse political song. [00:04:05] Jeffrey: And when it was over, it was a great song. When it was over, he screamed out in approval and it sounded just like a scream from the record. And I was just like, that’s pretty cool. That was kind of neat. It was like we sampled him. Um, anyway, so I was on this, I was in this punk rock band and I was, I had been sort of having like a political awakening since like age eight and. [00:04:31] Jeffrey: Somehow the years of being in bands and I, I, I worked in a lot of warehouses and dish washed and all this stuff. Like, I was starting to really feel the absence of something that felt truly meaningful to me as like how I spent my time. Um, and, and I was starting to think about leaving the band and just, I don’t know what, I didn’t know what, but the one thing it seemed like you could do is like, travel to places that have political relevance. [00:04:59] Jeffrey: And, [00:05:00] um, I had that kind of in my mind, but I didn’t have a high school diploma. I hadn’t gone to college at all. It was just like I had a good head on my shoulders, but like, I had to find ways of demonstrating that, which I didn’t really know. I was super shy. I barely looked adults in the eye in, in this period of time. [00:05:14] Jeffrey: But anyway, so we’re touring and we went to a news stand. Remember those lots of [00:05:19] Christina: vaguely, yeah. [00:05:21] Jeffrey: many magazines. [00:05:22] Christina: I love them so much. [00:05:24] Jeffrey: I bought a magazine called Covert Action Quarterly, which is an awesome name. It’s like a lefty magazine that’s traditionally looked at the covert work of United States agents, but also globally. [00:05:37] Jeffrey: I’d never heard of it. I was like, this is a badass title. And that’s the What was so great about newsstands, right, is you could just be like, what is that? I’m [00:05:45] Christina: Well, I was gonna say, you could like discover all these things. Like I, I, for me, um, I missed like a lot of, I guess, I mean there was like the, the news section of like the supermarket, but it wasn’t until I first went into like a Barnes and Noble that I got kind of like the equivalent, [00:05:59] Jeffrey: Right,[00:06:00] [00:06:00] Christina: know? [00:06:00] Jeffrey: right. Totally. Yeah, that’s, I mean, they still do that. Like I was in a Barnes Noble for the first time in a while, the other day, and there was a long run of magazines. The problem is magazines, the ones that have survived are they survived cuz they’re ad-based. And so you get these like just a million glossy magazines where every single, you know, headline and sub-headline is meant to serve the advertisers and it’s boring. [00:06:24] Jeffrey: And whereas in the olden days you would be like, what the fuck is Covert Action quarterly? So, [00:06:30] Christina: because you could have all kinds of classified ads and other things, like it didn’t just have to be the big glossies. You could, you know, like they were still advertising bases. Just the internet hadn’t, uh, completely either collapsed that form of, of revenue or, or changed it substantially, [00:06:44] Jeffrey: Yeah, and the distributors would take your little magazine cause they had a million big magazines. It wasn’t a big deal for them. Um, but, uh, but anyhow, since also called C A Q, it had a cover story about, um, about Iraq. And it was kind of a, this was, this would’ve been like [00:07:00] 1998. And so in 19 91, 7 years earlier, there was the Gulf War. [00:07:05] Jeffrey: I was 16 when that happened. Un unexplainable to me. I was fascinated and completely attached to that war. I would skip school to watch it on cnn and of course was like famously the first war to be broadcast. 24 hours, uh, seven days a week. Um, and I would watch it and when I couldn’t watch it, I would, you know, tape it on, set the VCR to tape it, and then I watch it later. [00:07:26] Jeffrey: And I wasn’t at all into. It wasn’t like a war fetish, it was like, oh my God, we’re the stuff that we normally do that we can’t see, we can see. It was just fascinating. And it’ll be a theme of my career, you know, like just like light in the dark corners. Like, oh, we can go over here and see what’s over here. [00:07:43] Jeffrey: And you could see this war and I mean, uh, highly sanitized version of the war, but you could see the war. Um, and I had been completely obsessed with it and then forgot about it. And this magazine was basically, it had a feature that was kind of telling the story of 1991 to present, and it was the [00:08:00] story of these economic sanctions that we had placed on Iraq with international support. [00:08:04] Jeffrey: And the, the way it basically went down is in the Gulf War, we very deliberately destroyed all of Iraq’s critical infrastructure with bombs, or most of it. With the idea that when the war was over, we would put economic sanctions on Iraq and Saddam Hussein would have to, uh, you know, kind of abide by those sanctions in order for us to allow him to import things, to fix water treatment plants, uh, phone exchanges, power plants, all that stuff. [00:08:33] Jeffrey: Um, and turned out sayings pretty stubborn. And, uh, the US is pretty stubborn. And so it just became this like, Like Cold War. Not Cold War. Cold War, but it wasn’t a hot war. Right. And people were still suffering. They, people were, I mean, what I was reading about in the, in Covert Action Quarterly was a Harvard study group that went to Iraq. [00:08:54] Jeffrey: And, uh, and they had gone because there were all of these reports coming out of the UN that [00:09:00] especially children and young and old people were suffering from the fact that there were these decrepit, um, totally out of date water treatment facilities held together with like duct tape and wire and, um, and that that meant there was a lot of dirty water going through the system and that meant that people were drinking it. [00:09:17] Jeffrey: And when you drinking, Bad water and you’re a kid or you’re elderly, it can really, really do damage. It can kill you. And there was a UNICEF report that came out that said 5,000 children under the age of five were dying every month that would not have otherwise been dying based on mortality statistics. [00:09:34] Jeffrey: And that this was entirely due to the fact that Iraq’s water system was what it was on the hospital system was what it was. So like you couldn’t, I had to bring in like medical journals for doctors because, because of the sanctions they couldn’t get mailed in. Um, so it was like a really serious thing. [00:09:49] Jeffrey: And so I’m reading this, I’m like, my God, I totally forgot about this place. And as it turns out, we’ve been doing far worse to it. In the last seven years than we did in the war itself. And, [00:10:00] um, and I learned in that magazine about an organization that was like sending delegations of activists to Iraq with bags of medicine and other things that aren’t allowed in, and doing it as an act of civil disobedience, which they could then use when they get back home as sort of a news hook and start and talk to people about the effects of the sanctions. [00:10:20] Jeffrey: So this movement was like, it grew out of nothing. And it was mostly, um, this one organization outta Chicago that was sending activists there. And then those activists were coming home and kind of doing some lobbying, but also, you know, talking to other activists groups or whatever, trying to make it an issue, which was really hard. [00:10:38] Jeffrey: And, uh, and so I saw the name of this organization that they, that they were in Chicago, that they sent people to Iraq. And there was this woman, Kathy Kelly, who led the organization. And I just thought, ah, I have friends in Chicago, it’d be cool to drive there and meet this woman. Um, and so I, I emailed her in the early days for me of email and said, I’d love to just meet you and [00:11:00] hear. [00:11:00] Jeffrey: You know, the work or whatever. I read about it in the, in covert action quarterly and uh, and she invited me out to Chicago. Turns out she runs this thing out of her house, which is, or her second floor of a house that she rents in Chicago. Uh, in the back room of this house was her father who was bedridden and, and barely verbal. [00:11:21] Jeffrey: And in the midway between the living room and where her father was in the kitchen was, was like a, a bay of like five PCs and people at each one of the PCs doing just kind of clickety, clacking away and. She invited me to sit down in the living room, and we talked for like two hours. And at the end of it, she was like, so do you wanna go to Iraq? [00:11:42] Jeffrey: And I totally didn’t see that coming. And, but at the same time, I mean, they were just sending activists, not, I don’t mean just, but I mean like, you know, like everyone, anyone can be an activist and go like, as long as you decide you are. And, uh, I decided pretty quickly that I wanted to go. And so in 1998, [00:12:00] I, um, quit my band. [00:12:01] Jeffrey: We had like one final show scheduled for after my trip to Iraq, but I, I went to Iraq having only ever been to Jamaica out of the country. Um, and it was the most bizarre, hard left turn I can possibly imagine. And it, and I can trace everything that’s true in my life today and good in my life today. Back to Kathy’s decision to be like, man, you seem like a good guy. [00:12:28] Jeffrey: You wanna go to Iraq. And, uh, and so the idea was the whole like premise of these trips was like five or six people go, you bring all this stuff that’s banned by sanctions, you do a press conference. We had a letter from the Treasury department saying like, anybody who travels to Iraq, uh, risks a, it was like a million dollars and 12 years in jail. [00:12:46] Jeffrey: That was like the, the kind of the scare letter. And so we would hold a press conference in the US and say, you know, here’s the letter, here’s what we’ve been, you know, thank you for the clarity of your warning, and we’re going anyway because we believed da da da da. And so we would go and then we’d hold another pro [00:13:00] press conference once we were in Baghdad at a hospital usually. [00:13:03] Jeffrey: Um, and um, I came home from that trip. It was about two weeks trip. I came home and like, this is all I wanted to do. Like, it’s all I could think about. And so I, I actually ended up moving in to Kathy’s apartment. One other employee of the place was already living there. Her apartment was this amazing, just sort of like grand central station of eccentric characters. [00:13:24] Jeffrey: Um, and so, I started working, started to help organizing these things. Then pretty soon I was like, I really wanna go back and lead a delegation and maybe I could live there and just welcome delegations. And what ended up happening was like, between that trip in October of 98 and August of 2001, so like one, I mean just days actually before the nine 11 attacks, I made like 10 or 11 trips, um, to Iraq, always through Iman Jordan. [00:13:53] Jeffrey: In fact, in, I’ve probably said this in the podcast, but this impossible to explain how this ended up being true. [00:14:00] Um, but I, I came through Chicago O’Hare having. Ben to Iraq in August of 2001, carrying a duffle bag of Iraqi money and fireworks. And they were like, welcome back. [00:14:17] Christina: Fun. Hope you had a good time. [00:14:19] Jeffrey: I mean, like a duffle bag full of bound Iraqi money because the, the like economy was so shattered that I could trade a hundred dollars for a backpack full of bills, you know? Um, so yeah. I always tell people that like, you know how different it was before, like yeah, we didn’t have to date cover our shoes and all that shit, but like, [00:14:39] Christina: But no, but, but it was really that different. No, that’s so interesting. Well, no, but, so this is amazing. So basically radio against the machine was at one of your, you know, concerts, screamed [00:14:49] Jeffrey: tour as when I found that [00:14:50] Christina: Yeah. Screamed out. Then like you, you see this magazine, you’re like, I wanna do that. You reach out, you wound up meeting somebody involved in this organization and it changes your whole life.[00:15:00] [00:15:00] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I mean, so, and there’s a direct line to journalism. So like, I did that, I did that work for quite a while, but at the end of that organization’s work, at least when I was there, we started actually being able to, like, I took a journalist from Rolling Stone to Iraq, right? Like his piece ended up getting spiked from Rolling Stone and published in Mother Jones for some reason. [00:15:20] Jeffrey: But like, anyway, this guy, Chuck Sud, who had also covered the, the Warren Yugoslavia in like the worst, most awful way. Um, I, so I took a journalist, I took editors, I took like an AP journalist, I took congress, congressional staffers, right? Like, so all of a sudden, like I’m not just rolling around with like other dirty hippies like [00:15:41] Christina: No, no, no, no. Because at this point now, now you’re the dirty hippie who can like, show them stuff because they, because, because you know, now you can like show like the, even the Rolling Stone guy by 1998, you know, that’s, he, he’s in a suit. He’s getting paid real well, you know, got paid a nice KFI and got another nice p fee from, from, uh, from [00:16:00] Mother Jones, right? [00:16:00] Christina: Like, you know, you, you’re take, you’re, you’re taking like, you know, these like high on the hog kind of people to show them this is what’s actually happening on the ground because you wanna help promote, like your mission of the organization, of, of, hey, this is what the sanctions have, have done. This is what the impact of, of what’s happening here is. [00:16:17] Christina: And, and, um, and then they’re like, well, this is great that I have, uh, an American and maybe I won’t get shot now, or, or, or whatever, you know? Um, because I, because I don’t speak Farsi and I’m not gonna like, like, know where to get started on anything. [00:16:33] Jeffrey: Yeah. No Arabic, nobody spoke Arabic like I spoke enough to order my food. The thing, and the thing is, I probably would’ve learned much more Arabic, but because um, Americans were not coming to Iraq cuz it was illegal. Um, everyone wanted to practice their English, you know? And that was cool cuz. [00:16:53] Jeffrey: Traditionally terrible at learning languages. So it was like kind of nice actually to have that going on. But, but yeah, I [00:17:00] mean, it’s like, um, and, and the process of taking journalists started to change me because I really believe in and believed in our mission as an activist organization doing these fact-finding mis missions. [00:17:13] Jeffrey: But what I often found with people who came along is that they came along with the story they were gonna find already in their mind. [00:17:20] Christina: Of course. [00:17:21] Jeffrey: And of course, you could outline what the story was, but you don’t actually know. And when you, when you come with the story in mind, you’re rigid and you’re not open, you’re not porous for new information. [00:17:33] Christina: no. In, if anything, like you’re, you’re looking for anything that fits in with that pattern, [00:17:36] Jeffrey: Yes. Yeah, totally. And like one of the things that started, there were two journalists that I went with that that impacted the rest of my life. So the first was Chuck Sud, who was this totally. Hard Scrabble. I mean, this guy in doing his work in Yugoslavia, in rushing to a story, had run over and killed a kid with his [00:18:00] motorcycle. [00:18:00] Jeffrey: I mean, he just, in addition to having seen some of the worst things in the world, he, he was dealing with this shit, right, and he was, He was hard. I mean, it was like, he was awesome. He was funny. He’s the most brilliant person I’ve ever met. But he, what, what he did that was so helpful is, you know, as an activist organization basically saying, Hey, this, these sanctions are killing the vulnerable. [00:18:23] Jeffrey: The, the thing that those, um, delegations would typically do is go from hospital to hospital to hospital. But the problem is if you haven’t really thought through how you’re going to be in those places, then you could do a lot of damage. And so people, I, I had to pull people out of hospital rooms because they would go in with the doctor and there’d be a woman in her child. [00:18:43] Jeffrey: And her child was like emaciated. It was like dying as it looked awful. Right. And, and this is way before I was a parent, so it would’ve hit a whole different way had I been a parent. But like the doctor. Is telling you all sorts of things in English about this kid and maybe about this mom. In most cases, [00:19:00] they did not speak English and so they’re watching this doctor say all kinds of words to us and, and some people are starting to cry and shaking their head and all that stuff and it’s like, Hey, this woman doesn’t know what’s going on. [00:19:13] Jeffrey: Like for all we know, this doctor has been a shit doctor and has not said anything about prognosis or anything like that because he doesn’t, maybe he just never developed a language for having that kind of relationship with a patient. You never know. Or maybe he’s amazing, but like let’s just assume that she is under inform, like anybody sitting in a hospital ever, right? [00:19:31] Jeffrey: You cannot start crying and shaking your head because it is going to cause a response in her. It might be. And it might be fear and it might be sadness, it might be all kinds of things that we don’t even have the right to try to understand, cuz we’re not her. We’re not there. And, and so I went from that kind of thing where I would kind of pull people out to like then training people about [00:19:54] Christina: So, so, so you would see people, so, so people would actually cry like in the room, like they would. [00:19:58] Jeffrey: and shake their head. [00:20:00] That’s the part that was actually, they would look at the, the mother and just make a contact. Well-meaning, of course, but intentions as we know are not magic. Especially when there’s a language barrier in a and in a, in a fascist state where you don’t trust anything anyhow. Right. [00:20:15] Jeffrey: Like, um, and so eventually I, I just, I really wanted to just stop going to so many hospitals cause it just felt like we know this story and I don’t know that we do, I don’t think we do more good than bad when we go, you [00:20:28] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, um, at, at, at a certain point, once you started bringing people, did you notice that like the stories all stayed the same? Was that [00:20:37] Jeffrey: Well, yeah. And sometimes the stories [00:20:39] Christina: but like, was that maybe what encouraged you to, to maybe, um, get into journalism? [00:20:44] Jeffrey: sort of, I mean, the what, the, what happened that was so disturbing. I mean, actually the first press conference I was part of on my first trip, we were out in front of a hospital and a man and a woman as the, as the like AP cameras were rolling. Um, a man and a woman came out [00:21:00] of the door behind us with a, what looked like. [00:21:03] Jeffrey: Baby covered in a blanket and they were crying and they were saying something, I don’t know what, and they got into a Jeep and just like sped off and the cameras followed it. And it was like, and, and what we came to realize as we kind of reflected on is that was very possibly not actually a, a, a dead child. [00:21:21] Jeffrey: Like that was very possibly a, just like a medium manipulation, you know? Um, and that was like my first trip, my first day. And that, that alone, Changed me for a long time was just like trying to think about why it might have been that that happened and how they may have been made to do that. Um, you know, and they may have had no choice whatsoever, and maybe that was an actual child. [00:21:43] Jeffrey: I mean, it’s not to get super disturbing, but like, it’s like it’s a dictatorship, right? So like, you never know what’s true. You never know what’s true. And, and so anyway, so like, so it’s, it’s like two things acting now that I think about it. On the one hand, you come with a, with a, with a predetermined story, on the other hand, [00:22:00] you don’t know what’s true. [00:22:02] Jeffrey: And there’s this third part where you’ve gotta figure out a way to see things that might be true so that you can tell a more nuanced story. It’s a fucking mess. But like the thing that Chuck Sutich did for me that was so great is we. Couple days of just hard interviews in hard places, um, the way that a journalist like him would do. [00:22:22] Jeffrey: And um, and then he said to me one morning we were roommates, he would sing Delia by Johnny Cash in the shower. Um, and one morning he goes, we’re not going to any hospitals today. I was like, okay, what are we doing? He’s like, we’re going to the museum. And he’s like, this place is not just victims. Like this place is a country full of living, breathing hearts, beating people. [00:22:48] Jeffrey: It’s an incredible culture. It’s not, the story is not just one of victimhood. And we do everybody a disservice by insisting that that’s how you have to receive it. And. That [00:23:00] was huge for me and, uh, just absolutely huge. And the second thing that made a big difference for me in getting into journalism was that I traveled with an editor for a small newspaper in Kansas, and, um, he and I got along so, so well, and he, he kind of became a mentor to me even after that trip and told me like, you should be a journalist. [00:23:21] Jeffrey: Um, that’s like, that’s how your head works. And, and so, so when the invasion happened, I called him about a weekend and I said, I can’t stand it anymore, Tom. I need to go over there and said, I know I can’t be a journalist. Exactly, but I also know that. I know a lot about what it was and am better situated to see what it is. [00:23:50] Jeffrey: Um, and to be frank, and maybe this is the story I want to connect with the people I love and care about and, and find out what’s [00:24:00] happened for them since this war began. And this was a very different time in journalism because this editor of a small newspaper said, give me 15 minutes, and then called me back and he said, you got an interpreter. [00:24:13] Jeffrey: And I had a friend, a Palestinian Masen, uh, Palestinian friend who lived in east Jerusalem. Um, and we had been, we’d already traveled to a Iraq together. And so I’m like, yeah, I can get Ma Hassan. And he is like, all right, get a satellite phone and buy your tickets. Um, I’m sending you to a rock, which was just like such a kindness. [00:24:34] Jeffrey: Um, I mean, he was thinking of his paper, but it was still a kindness and he, and he knew I, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:41] Christina: budgets for it then, right? Like it, that, that’s, that’s, that’s the biggest difference. [00:24:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. In 15 minutes he was like, grab an interpreter, get hurt of Baghdad, get yourself to Baghdad. Get a satellite phone, which is not cheap. I mean, you rent them, but like, oh my God, not cheap by the minute. [00:24:57] Jeffrey: And, uh, and then go find, go [00:25:00] find a hotel, which was, I went to the hotel I had always stayed at, and there had always been this African gray parrot in the, uh, restaurant. And one of the restaurant workers who I’d come to know really well had trained. Um, to make, uh, gun sounds, but also if you made gun sounds to duck, it would duck in all these directions. [00:25:20] Jeffrey: It was amazing. And so I, I roll out to Baghdad, there’s fucking Americans everywhere. Uh, after all of my time there being one of five Americans in the country at a time, right? Like I was definitely not novel anymore. Um, and in the lobby of the hotel, there were soldiers playing with that bird. And when I went to the desk and talked to a friend there, the prices, the hotel was full. [00:25:44] Jeffrey: Anyhow, the prices were so high because they were rightly bulking the American military. Cause we didn’t have like a, a proper base yet. So it’s like soldiers are distinct. I mean, this is like unbelievable to think about because it became so dangerous to be a soldier there. But at this point you [00:26:00] just saw ’em walking around, they were like chilling in the restaurants, whatever. [00:26:04] Jeffrey: In fact, the what caused me to leave. This place. Um, after st. So I did find a hotel, by the way, which was in the lobby. They had actually welded in this, um, Florida ceiling grate with a door in it, and they would lock you into the hotel at the end of each night, um, because there had been looting and other stuff. [00:26:24] Jeffrey: And so it, it’s just like, and they had covered, they had, they had stacked bricks outside all the windows. Um, it was just, it was a trip. But anyway, um, so why I ended up leaving, cuz I intended to stay for a while, but I left only after two weeks was I went to my favorite restaurant and I was sitting in a booth with Ma Mosen and my friend Sak, who’s Iraqi and across the restaurant were three booths full of American soldiers. [00:26:54] Jeffrey: Their two Humvees took up like six spots in the restaurant in front, in the, in the parking, [00:27:00] in the parking, uh, lot area and. I had just returned. I was there with an Iraqi and a woman soldier came to our table after staring at us for a while, extended her hand and said, welcome to Iraq. And it’s like there aren’t many better metaphors to our, the way, like where our head was at as a country and as a military. [00:27:27] Jeffrey: When we got to Iraq, like, who are you saying welcome to me? Who’s been here a million fucking times? This guy who’s lived here his whole life, this woman who’s been here a million times, like, welcome. What the fuck are you talking about? And so I got so distracted by watching her in the soldiers that I ate a kebab of mostly raw chicken in a restaurant that had been having power outages on and off like everybody else for a week. [00:27:52] Jeffrey: And I got salmon. And, uh, I was shitting blood for a week, maybe more two weeks [00:28:00] I think. And uh, it was best for me to go home. [00:28:04] Christina: And so and so, so you ended up leaving right before it would’ve been very difficult for you to leave, [00:28:11] Jeffrey: actually, yeah. Well here’s what’s really wild is, I mean, it’s awful, but in my last days there, maybe in my last day or second to last day, there was a bridge outside my window. I didn’t see this, but it was close to where I was. And at that bridge was a soldier just chilling cuz soldiers were just chilling everywhere. [00:28:31] Jeffrey: They were just like lounging on their tanks. There weren’t a lot of them in the first place. Like I expected many more. I mean, we saw how that ended up being not a great thing, even though I was opposed to the invasion itself. They’re lounging talking to kids, talking to people, whatever. One of these days, a guy walks up to a soldier on a bridge from behind and shoots him in the back of the head. [00:28:53] Jeffrey: And from that point on, it was a slow march to just total [00:29:00] resistance, uh, to the American occupation. But like, that was like this, like canary in the coal mine moment. And, and I’ve never been back. And, and I, that that sucks. But it’s going back means, I mean, I said this in a recent episode where it’s like, I don’t feel like I can go back without causing harm to the people I would wanna see. [00:29:24] Jeffrey: So [00:29:25] Christina: Which. [00:29:26] Jeffrey: self-indulgent. [00:29:27] Christina: Yeah. No, I mean, and, and that’s, that’s really, really hard. Um, okay. That actually, I loved that. I, I loved that entire segment. Um, there’s no good way to now go into a sponsor read, but we are at that time and we need to do a sponsor read. I will say, I think that counted as Mental health corner, but also as like [00:29:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. Right, [00:29:45] Christina: one another segment that was actually, I, but, but, but, but I love that whole thing. [00:29:50] Christina: I love like, I mean, terrible to kind of hear about, you know, that the end of that experience, but to see how you taken a chance and, and how old were you? I guess you [00:30:00] were, how old were you when you, when you first started getting, get involved with this? In 98. How old were you in 98? You were like 21, [00:30:07] Jeffrey: Uh two. Yeah. [00:30:09] Christina: So 20, 22, 23. [00:30:11] Christina: So just amazing. Um, all right. I did just because. [00:30:17] Jeffrey: Let’s hit it. [00:30:18] Sponsor: Kolide [00:30:18] Christina: All right. Our, our, uh, show this week is brought to you by Collide. Our sponsor, collide has some big news. If you’re an Okta user, they can get your entire fleet to 100% compliance. How? Well, if a device is not compliant, the user can’t log in to your cloud apps until they fix the problem. [00:30:37] Christina: It’s that simple. So Collide Patch is one of the major holes in zero trust architecture, which is device compliance. And without collide, it struggles to solve basic problems like keeping everyone’s OS and browser up to date. You know, like Mac OS just released an update this week and, you know, patch Tuesday for Windows and unsecured devices are logging into your company’s apps because there’s nothing there to stop them.[00:31:00] [00:31:00] Christina: Collide is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance as part of authentication, and it’s built to work seamlessly with Okta. The moment collide agent detects a problem, it alerts the user and gives them instructions to fix it. And if they don’t fix the problem within a set time, they’re blocked. [00:31:16] Christina: They’re blocked. Collide method means fewer support tickets, less frustration, and most importantly, 100% fleet compliance. You can visit collide.com/ Overtired to learn more or book a demo. That’s K O L I D e.com/ Overtired collide.com/ Overtired. [00:31:38] Promo Swap: Mental Chillness [00:31:38] Jeffrey: Boom. All right. We’ve been talking about this podcast a few episodes now, the Mental Chillness podcast. If you are looking for more mental health podcasts, can you have too many? Probably. But if you’re looking for more mental, chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. It’s led by Khan and Jules, two people with mental [00:32:00] illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily processes of working towards mental chillness. [00:32:07] Jeffrey: Coming from childhood environments that were not open about mental wellbeing and emotional self-regulation, Khan and Jules are opening up the conversations of the everyday struggles of dealing with a d h. Depression and anxiety, epilepsy and growing into adulthood. They share tips and tricks of emotional awareness from their personal experiences and how they hold themselves accountable through personal bs. [00:32:33] Jeffrey: Personal bs. That’d be a good book. Title. [00:32:37] Christina: I like it. [00:32:38] Jeffrey: bs and the way they know how to do it best is with humor, and you could keep up with them on any podcast platform and the YouTube channel. Mental Chillness for Full Video Chillness contents. Thank you. Mental Chillness. [00:32:53] Christina: Thank you very much. [00:32:54] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm. [00:32:56] Christina: All right. So, um, I was just gonna say, okay, it’s [00:33:00] just to kind of back up a little bit before we kind of got into like the, the Christina and Jeff interview each other thing, and I really like that. I’m, I loved hearing [00:33:06] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s fun. [00:33:07] Christina: your journey into this, and, and it’s so interesting. You should write a book. [00:33:10] Christina: You really should. Um, [00:33:12] Jeffrey: that and I don’t, I just don’t know how to I’ve tried. Go ahead [00:33:18] Christina’s book title was waaaay better! [00:33:18] Christina: well, we, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll think on it. You might just need somebody else to help you frame it because, but there is a book in here, like, I know it, there’s a book in here. Like, I know that I have some sort of memoir at some point. Um, and, and I, I know the angles that would be sellable, but those aren’t necessarily the ones I wanna do. [00:33:31] Christina: And then I, I, I, I don’t know, there was one that would’ve been really good. And then s I waited too long and someone else stole my title and, uh, or close enough to my title. My ti my title was slightly better. And so that sucks, uh, because the title I had was fucking perfect. Um, [00:33:49] Jeffrey: You can’t say it Kenya, cuz you, [00:33:50] Christina: Yeah, no, I can, I can because it’s basically been stolen and, and that book is coming out at some point. [00:33:55] Christina: And, uh, I’m not even gonna read it because I’m so mad. I’m, I’m mad at myself to be clear, because I had [00:34:00] years to sit on this and to pitch this and I didn’t, um, how to be a woman on the internet. [00:34:05] Jeffrey: Oh, that’s a great title. [00:34:07] Christina: Right, [00:34:08] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Wait, what’s the one that’s close? [00:34:13] Christina: How to be a woman online is coming out. That’s not as good. Uh, I’m gonna be honest. It’s not as [00:34:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. It needs the hardness of the word [00:34:21] Christina: it does. It does. But regardless, I can’t now pitch a book called How to Be a Woman on the Internet when a book was sold called How to Be a Woman Online. [00:34:30] Jeffrey: What about how to be a woman on the worldwide web? [00:34:32] Christina: Ha But I wanted it to be like, I wanted to be like part memoir, part kind of like essay kind of thing about like, you know, Like, I even knew how I was gonna open it. [00:34:42] Christina: I just, I, I was afraid to pitch, honestly. That’s the, that’s the real [00:34:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always the, yeah. Afraid to [00:34:48] Christina: but like, I, I was afraid to like, do, do the, you know, send out stuff and, and to send out like the, the agent, you know, letters and other stuff. I was afraid to pitch. I was afraid of getting turned down. Um, so I didn’t do it. [00:34:57] Christina: Which sucks because [00:35:00] no offense to, to the how to be woman online thing, but if that’s the title that you chose, when the much better one is right there on the cusp of what you’re doing. I don’t have super high hopes for the book. I know that’s unfair and part of that is sour grapes on my part. And, but, but it is. [00:35:14] Christina: But, but I said what I said, I’m just [00:35:17] Jeffrey: Do you think it’s one of those things? [00:35:19] Christina: Sorry, go [00:35:19] Jeffrey: No, go ahead. Go ahead. [00:35:20] Christina: No, I was just gonna say what an objectively better title is right there. I’m gonna immediately be judgemental of you for not picking it as angry as I still am at myself. [00:35:29] Nintendo and The White Lotus [00:35:29] Jeffrey: What if it’s, you know, here’s what I wonder. So I was, I’m watching the White Lotus for the first time. Um, and yeah, there’s a point in the like third episode where the kid, uh, loses his switch, his Nintendo switch, and, um, when he comes home and is yelling about it, he yells, I lost my Nintendo. And I thought that’s not what he would’ve said. [00:35:49] Jeffrey: But then I realized someone probably edited that to be like, no, no, you can’t say Switch. Doesn’t make sense. No one knows what that is. They got a Nintendo where everyone knows Nintendo. Just like when he was playing it, he basically was playing Smash [00:36:00] Brothers based on his like, smash Bros. But like, they were literally just giving occasional sounds from Mario, but not like Mario’s fighting. [00:36:07] Jeffrey: It was, it’s, it’s funny, it’s funny to me at this point in the history of gaming that there, that those things can happen, right? [00:36:15] Christina: I agree. I agree. Although it’s, it’s, it’s fu it’s funny cuz I wonder how much of that as like a post-production rights thing, cuz Nintendo is like notoriously, you know, weird about that stuff. Right. And so, um, There might have been like a que because a, you have like the actual paid product placement, which is usually not people saying the, the, the product name. [00:36:39] Christina: And it’s, it’s funny because people think that, oh, you have to cover up the Apple logo. No you don’t. It’s just they cover it up because they’re not getting paid to show it. That’s typically what happens. You can show the brand logos all you want, as long as you’re not doing something derogatory with the product. [00:36:52] Christina: The companies don’t care. And even then you could argue it’s like a fair use thing unless it’s the subject of what you’re doing, right. Like, like that it’s, it’s a very clear [00:37:00] thing. But most TV shows and things don’t want to give free publicity. Um, H B O and things like that are different cuz they wanna go for the realism. [00:37:10] Christina: But you know, apple does do product placement in a number of things and be, even before Apple tv. Like you could, you could see that happening places where you’re like, wow, every single person has an iPhone or an iMac or this or that. And in just this like stunning way that just doesn’t, and you know, that it’s, it’s, it’s promotional consideration. [00:37:28] Christina: It’s not necessarily a product placement. But I do wonder, like Nintendo being as weird as they are, if they would be a thing where they’re like, okay, we can use the switch because this is enough of a known thing, but if we use the smash music, we have to clear that and Nintendo’s not going to clear it for this show. [00:37:44] Jeffrey: right, right, right. Yeah. Which is crazy. I guess it wouldn’t have been a big deal at the time, but it is still an H B O show. But yeah, I [00:37:50] Christina: Well, I mean, it’s white Lotus, I mean, like, let’s listen to the subject matter. That’s not gonna be like a, a, I mean, Nintendo is, they’re, they’re freaks anyway. Like, like, like, like there are people who, like, they [00:38:00] send take down notes to YouTubers who are literally doing nothing but promoting their thing. [00:38:04] Christina: And they’re like, no, we don’t like game streams. Why? [00:38:07] Jeffrey: guess it’s kind of in a way, you’ve, you’ve flipped me to the point where I feel like it’s amazing that they let the switch be there at [00:38:15] Christina: Uh, well that’s kind of how I was feeling when you were talking about it. I, that, that, it’s so funny cuz that was my first thing. I was like, shit, I, I’m, I’m actually impressed that they even like didn’t, because you do see, sometimes they’ll have like fake devices and fake things, but again, that’s usually not because you legally have to, but because they don’t wanna get free publicity to stuff. [00:38:32] In praise of deep dives [00:38:32] Christina: Um, but, um, like I, I did this deep dive a few months ago where there’s, there’s this guy Quentin, reviews on YouTube who does like these exhaustive, like multi-hour videos. And he’s done like this mini, mini, mini, mini, mini hour like digression into iCarly and Victorious. And he’s done the first half of, of, of, uh, salmon Kat, which was the, the spinoff of the two [00:39:00] shows with two of the characters. [00:39:01] Christina: And that the first part is five and a half hours. [00:39:05] Jeffrey: Wow. Uh, I [00:39:07] Christina: Um, I mean, I’m talking about like, like, like there’s like an eight hour iCarly video, like there, and there are several of them. Like, and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve watched them and, and so I learned more about like the Nickelodeon like universe of, of, of shows and like the, uh, this particular like universe of like, they, they created this, um, at this pear company to be a stand-in for Apple and they have all these pair devices like the, you know, pear pad and the pone and the, you know, like, uh, like yeah, exactly. [00:39:38] Christina: But, but they actually like created like it’s all lives in universe. It’s actually kind of funny. I’ve, I’ve gotta be honest, it is sort of clever to, to see that stuff. I’m like, okay, you know what? I don’t, I don’t hate that. That’s actually, if you’re going to like, have a commitment to a bit that, that’s interesting. [00:39:53] Christina: But, um, But yeah, you know, that that was just a Nickelodeon being like, oh no, we are not giving, you [00:40:00] know, Android or, or, or Apple or, or whoever, Motorola or whatever, Samsung, whatever. We’re not giving them any free publicity. We’ll just have plastic things cuz we’re just gonna be, you know, putting the green screen on this in, in po in post production. [00:40:13] Christina: Anyway, [00:40:14] Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah, totally. That’s true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That’s interesting. I, you know, it’s interesting you said this, this five hour, uh, uh, digression. I was actually, it was, I had a topic kicking around in my mind about like how, what, what things we are able to listen to ad nauseum. Is that what I would say? [00:40:35] Jeffrey: Like deep dives, like, cuz I, I just got to do it. Something that like, I don’t know anybody could understand this. I listened to, so Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin has this podcast, uh, the name of [00:40:46] Christina: and you’re talking about music producer Rick Ruben, I’m assuming. [00:40:48] Jeffrey: Yes. Music producer, Rick Rubin. Um, and it’s not always him. It’s, he does it with Malcolm Gladwell, but I don’t find Malcolm Gladwell a really interesting music interviewer where [00:41:00] obviously Rick Ruben is. [00:41:01] Jeffrey: Um, and Rick Ruben did this series of interviews. It’s. Four one hour interviews with John fue, the guitars Onaga King guitarist of the Red Hot Chili Peppers an hour with flea bass player, of course, uh, an hour with Anthony Kiis and an Hour with Chad Smith. So each of the members of the Red Hot Chili Peppers a band that like I loved in a, in a Time, but I’m, I can’t, I can’t find the hook in their music now that I found in like Blood Sugar, sex Magic, which is just an incredible record. [00:41:35] Christina: Incredible record. You know what, it was also a great record though. I’m gonna briefly like, uh, digress you for just a second, California ation. [00:41:41] Jeffrey: so I have, I agree. And in fact, so here, so here’s actually, it’s walked right in the, what happened to me. So first of all, I could listen to. 4, 5, 6, 7 hours of over in a week of interviews with these guys. In part because I love listening to people talk about music in depth because I [00:42:00] was in bands and I love music, but also because at a time in my life I really loved this band and actually they had a huge impact of about how I, this is kind of interesting, like as like sort of misogynistic as they could be both in footage of the band and in the music. [00:42:15] Jeffrey: Like I, there was this documentary I watched over and over again that was the making of blood sugar, sex magic back in like 91, 92 with Rick Rubin. And the way that those, especially Anthony Kiedis and Flea, I feel so just don’t hate me for talking about these guys as much as I’m about to. The way that they, the way that they talked about their relationship with one another and the relationship with music was. [00:42:41] Jeffrey: Highly feminine in, in terms of like what kind of energy I had around me with bands and really connected with me. And like they would, I mean, they loved each other and they would talk about things about the beauty of music. It was actually kinda hard music, but they would talk about the beauty of it or they would just use words that weren’t being [00:43:00] used by the people around me to describe either friendships or music. [00:43:03] Jeffrey: And I. Altered me forever. Like, it, it helped ease me into a place that I knew I’d be more comfortable anyhow, and, and is where I’m at to this day. Like the way that I exclaim about music is, is still, IM impacted by the way that they exclaimed about music in those days. So I think part of it was, I was, I was looking for that and totally found it. [00:43:24] Jeffrey: Like it’s, I love listening to these guys talk way more than I love listening to them. Um, but to your point, I wanted just one other, an album to care about after all this, right? And I started going through ’em and I was like, oh, that California Cajun’s pretty good record. [00:43:39] Christina: It’s a [00:43:39] Jeffrey: And it’s really the, it’s the follow up to blood sugar, sex magic. [00:43:43] Jeffrey: Because Dave Navarro was the guitar player in between [00:43:46] Christina: Yes. Exactly. And, and look, Dave Navarro was great in his bands. He was not great in the chili peppers, [00:43:51] Jeffrey: I was so sad. I I, I saw the Red Hot Chili Peppers on that tour in Lollapalooza too, and he was a guitar player. I was so bummed cuz that John Fian is a, is [00:44:00] a goddamn prodigy [00:44:01] Christina: I saw [00:44:02] Jeffrey: or was at [00:44:02] Christina: some, I saw, I saw them at some festival during the California kitchen, um, uh, era. And, and I loved, you know, I, I was, I was much younger, but I, I loved, you know, blood, uh, sugar, sex magic and, and, and, you know, great songs. And, and that was like their breakthrough. And, and, and I loved the behind the music. [00:44:20] Christina: And then, which actually came out, I don’t think it was even tied to Californian cation. I think it was like a year earlier. Weirdly enough, like I don’t think it was actually tied, cuz usually they would time the, the, the behind the musics to like a new album release or, or, or some other sort of moment. [00:44:34] Christina: Right. Which, which makes sense. Um, at the time I didn’t know that, but now of course I do. Um, but as a kid, I didn’t know that. But then like California Cation, like it came out that summer, summer of 99 and which was a great summer for music. Um, and you know, like, like Peak, peak peak CD sales and that, that album just, I still listened to it like that to me. [00:44:57] Christina: Like it had great, great [00:45:00] singles and, but, but all the, all, all the songs were like, you know, just like it hits. It’s a really good album. [00:45:10] Jeffrey: Yeah. Oh, it’s amazing. And, and it’s, it’s, I didn’t realize that the relationship with Rick Rubin just went on and on for them. Um, and Broken Record is the name of the podcast I just [00:45:20] Christina: Broken record. [00:45:20] Jeffrey: Um, yeah. And yeah, it’s just like, it’s, yeah. Anyway, so for me, like I can listen to people talk about music forever and just to, to, to say one other amazing episode is his interview with Tyler, the creator after Igor came out. [00:45:34] Jeffrey: Um, what a, what a [00:45:36] Christina: Tyler, the creator. [00:45:37] Jeffrey: what a charming person who just, he has the nicest way of loving his music so much and, uh, and, and unselfconsciously, but also not arrogantly talking about it. And Igor is amazing. That album’s amazing. I got into it through my teenager. Um, anyway, so for you. [00:45:55] Christina: know this. Cuz I, I like, I like Rick Rubin a lot. Uh, I, you know, I’ve obviously, you know, like [00:46:00] Def Jam is like massively influential in, in everything, but I think just as a producer, like he’s just, he’s incredible. And it’s funny because I probably did learn who he was probably from behind the music. [00:46:10] Christina: Um, or, or [00:46:11] Jeffrey: yeah. Sure. [00:46:12] Christina: types of things like that, you know, like, which I wonder, I guess today it is YouTube, like YouTube documentaries and podcasts. But I do like wonder like how kids today are getting that kind of information. Because on the one hand we have more sources than ever. But on the other hand, you don’t have these like, well produced in the sense that there’s like a team behind them. [00:46:30] Christina: Like you have individuals who will do documentaries and and stuff on YouTube, which might be very interesting and are good, but it’s not the same as when you have a production crew and paid researchers and people who can [00:46:43] Jeffrey: Well, it’s usually, yeah, [00:46:46] Christina: It’s just not the [00:46:47] Jeffrey: like repurposed. It’s repurposed content and if you’ve got a gift for editing, that’s great, and if not, it’s a drag. [00:46:53] Christina: Right, right. Like, like, like, like the, um, the, the, the kid who, you know, did like the extensive, like ridiculous, like, [00:47:00] you know, in-depth looks and analyses of like the, the iCarly universe. [00:47:05] Christina: Like he, you know, is even limited in terms of like, uh, what type of clips he can show because of copyright claims and this and that. And, and he’s done some original research, which is, which is interesting. But again, it’s not the same thing as if, you know, like the E two Hollywood story was still being made or behind the music or like those other types of things where you have a licensing group, like, it, you, it, it’s an office who contacts people and, and gets what deals with rights issues. [00:47:30] Christina: And, you know, it’s not that expensive, but it’s more expensive than what YouTubers could do. Um, you know, I mean it why I so prefer to watch Dateline. There are a lot of really good true crime, like YouTube things, and some of them are really interesting and the analysis is good, but I would much rather watch Dateline. [00:47:45] Christina: Why? Because there’s just a level of polish there that’s just better. [00:47:49] Jeffrey: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. [00:47:50] Christina: mean? Like, it’s just better. It’s, it’s just better. But, but I, but I’m glad we have podcasts like that. But I do wonder, and this is just my diversion, my, my digression. I know we gotta get into [00:48:00] aptitude and then you gotta go. [00:48:01] Christina: Um, like how, how kids today are like discovering this sort of historical stuff. I guess it’s YouTube, but I, I feel like, I feel like it’s actually, I, I hate being like, oh, it was better in my day, but I feel like it actually was [00:48:14] Jeffrey: yeah, for my teenage boys, I mean, they go deep dives in YouTube. I mean, it’s, I mean, and, and they come out of it with good shit. I couldn’t watch those things all the way through the ones that I see them watching, but like, man, they’re, they’re getting good information. [00:48:29] Christina: No, no, and it’s nothing, not getting it. I just wonder. I’m just like, but, but it’s not as, you know what I mean? But it’s like, it’s not as good. It’s like Wikipedia. It’s [00:48:36] Jeffrey: and there’s not as, [00:48:37] Christina: but it’s not the same, it’s not as good as Karta or Encyclopedia Britannica was. [00:48:42] Jeffrey: Yeah. And even if, uh, every media organization’s fired all it’s fact checkers, you still got a better chance at a pretty factual thing sometimes in the [00:48:49] Christina: Totally, totally. [00:48:50] Jeffrey: go wrong, they can go wrong, and then, and without, I mean, you know, I used, this is short, but I used to be an editor at New Reader Magazine and the purpose of that [00:49:00] magazine was really pre-internet in a way. [00:49:02] Jeffrey: It was like to be a digest of the alternative press. And when I worked there, um, the, the definition of alternative press had sort of expanded. So we might have stuff from like the American prospect or just whatever, like kind of political magazines that are actually doing pretty well. And we would always, if we were gonna, if we were gonna reprint a feature or even if we were gonna excerpt like 500 words from our article, we fact checked it. [00:49:26] Jeffrey: And the shit that we found in major magazines, you know, in just trying to fact check 500 words of it was chilling. And I feel like if that’s when you’re doing your very best, then if you’re doing your YouTube documentary, man, you just gotta be diligent. And I don’t think anybody really knows to be that diligent because it’s more about the story a little bit. [00:49:47] Christina: It’s about the story and then, and then it’s also about feeding the algorithm and you have like deadlines and things that you know are, are different. Like, it’s just, it’s, it, it it’s different lovers pulling on you, you know? Not to say that you were lover [00:50:00] free with the old way, because you certainly were, to your point, you have people who are going into Iraq with like a pre-written story or pre-written, not outline in their mind, right? [00:50:07] Christina: Like, so, so it’s not, it’s not like that goes away, but it’s just, it, the, just the, the lovers are, are different. [00:50:13] Jeffrey: Yeah, [00:50:13] Grapptitude [00:50:13] Christina: All right. Do you want to do, uh, some gratitude? Do you have time? [00:50:17] Jeffrey: Yeah, let’s do it. Yeah, let’s do it. Um, do you wanna go first? You want me to go first? [00:50:23] Christina: Um, do you got, do you have one? [00:50:25] Jeffrey: I happen to, yeah. I’ll be honest with you, it just came to me a minute ago, but, um, [00:50:30] Christina: I mean, same, to be honest, but yes. [00:50:33] Jeffrey: I have been using this app since maybe 2000. God, I feel like 2007 and that, that doesn’t seem possible, but Devin think, um, Which is like, you know, it’s basically the kind of thing where you can feed everything into it, your emails, your PDFs, your movies, your whatever, and it, it handles them all very well. [00:50:56] Jeffrey: It has its own built-in ocr, which works very well. [00:51:00] Um, and it has what, it’s, what it’s been calling an AI for like more than like decades it feels like, uh, approach to, um, being able to sort of organize or, or see across your files. It’s not really AI Exactly. It’s certainly not as we understand it today. [00:51:15] Jeffrey: But, um, I, when I have a big project and I’m at the point where, where I am now, I’ve had a project for about five years and I’m at the point where I’m writing some sort of summative reports, but also some like public things and, um, I put everything in there. And it is the most incredibly powerful way to locate what I need, and I don’t even have to be terribly thoughtful about how I dump stuff in. [00:51:40] Jeffrey: Um, and, and it’s what’s nice about it is in the beginning I think it’s true that in the beginning you just had to have your stuff inside of their, um, you know, walled off garden. But, um, ever since they made it so that, It just sim likes to files basically. Um, I think it’s right to say that. Uh, but it, [00:52:00] you know, you can just have a folder and it acts on that folder rather than having to bring it into Devin thing, which means it gets all this kind of weird shit happening to it. [00:52:08] Jeffrey: Or just like adds these, all these invisible files and all this stuff that just gets confusing 10 years later when you’re trying to make sense of something. Anyway, it is incredible. Um, it’s ability. I’ve fed it as many as 20,000 PDFs in one project and it’s ability to help me find my way through those PDFs was just like, it’s almost like using BB edit over like sublime texts when you have huge data where it’s just like, oh, BB edit is just waiting for me to give it something really big and challenging. [00:52:37] Jeffrey: Whereas Sublime Text is like, no, that’s not quite what I do. Um, and this is something that like at, at a, in a period of time, this was an alternative to Evernote for me. Um, but it really was so much more than an Evernote. There really isn’t anything else quite. Like it in terms of its, I think what I like about it, it’s probably my age, is it basically looks like an old, like an email interface for a classic email client. [00:52:59] Jeffrey: Um, [00:53:00] and, and I have always liked that format a lot and, and so yeah, Devon think I, I’m a Devon think pro fella and I just love it [00:53:10] Christina: Nice. [00:53:11] Jeffrey: much more to say, but I’m not, I don’t need to say it. [00:53:13] Christina: no, that’s a great pick. That’s a great pick. So my pick is, um, I, and I’m kind of stealing from things that I have featured on the download. So sorry for people who watch that, but, but [00:53:24] Jeffrey: watch the download. It’s awesome. [00:53:26] Christina: Yes, watch the download. It’s great. Uh, if I do say so myself. Um, so this is called Types, and this is a new, and, and actually this is something that Brett would be interested in because parts of this are open, open source. [00:53:38] Christina: Like they, they, they’ve open sourced the, um, um, uh, like the kind of the, the compiler, kinda the syntax extension. But basically there’re these college, uh, kids, uh, the, these like, uh, computer science, um, um, grads who became acquainted with late tech in college and realized that late tech is fucking terrible. [00:53:57] Christina: And they’re like, okay, so what if we [00:54:00] fixed late tech? And, um, you’re like, okay, well that would be interesting, but how are you going to do that? And so they, it’s taken them four years, but they’ve written. Basically kind of a, a, a late tech replacement. And they are, they’ve open sourced, um, uh, it, it launched, uh, like a couple weeks ago, um, in, in beta, like in public beta. [00:54:22] Christina: Uh, so it’s T Y P t, uh, t y pst.app. And, um, they have like a, a, a web app that, that that’s free. And I, I’m presuming this is how they’re gonna try to like, kinda make money with it, um, where you’ll be able to like write in preview at the same time. But they’re making the compiler open source and they’re open sourcing a lot of other stuff. [00:54:40] Christina: So that, which honestly is the move here because if you want this to actually take off as a format, this is what you do. And the whole way they’ve been thinking about this and the formatting and the styling is basically how to like, make something that will do what latex does, but with a syntax that is not terrible. [00:54:59] Jeffrey: [00:55:00] Yeah. And this thing where they’ve got the split screen, like multi markdown composer is really cool because the output is magical. [00:55:09] Christina: Yep. Yep. And, and it’s great cuz like, like, and they have like some, um, some built-in templates. Like they have this one that, that I just kind of created right now as we’re we’re talking where it’s like a, a newsletter sort of thing. And it looks like, you know, obviously this is all done kind of in, in css, other sort of type setting things, but this looks like the sort of thing that would normally be like a word or, or maybe even like a, um, a, a page mill, you know, uh, to, to go back that far, like kind of template. [00:55:37] Christina: And, and that’s really great. But the thing is, is that you have like different text boxes with, with potential, um, you know, ways that you could, you could do quotes and then you have like, like math. The, the way that math things and, and numbers could be, you know, expressed in certain ways and, and you have like full control over your layout and everything else. [00:55:55] Christina: And. That’s really great. Like, that’s exactly what you want. But it’s, [00:56:00] it’s similar to markdown in the sense that it’s, it’s readable and it, it, you know, I, I don’t know the whole syntax yet, but, but it certainly seems a lot more accessible than latex, which is incredibly powerful, but is fucking awful. So, [00:56:15] Jeffrey: awesome. [00:56:15] Christina: so, so types does is, is my pick. [00:56:18] Christina: Um, I, I, and I’m also just amazed like that so many people have the idea, they’re like, oh, this is terrible. I wanna create a replacement and then realize that it’s hard and stop. [00:56:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s hard work. There’s a reason it’s been dominant. [00:56:29] Christina: and, and, and, and, and these are the, the, these are two like college students who actually did the thing. [00:56:35] Jeffrey: That’s so cool. What a good story. [00:56:37] Christina: So, yeah. So that’s it for me. Um, but, uh, this has been a fun, like, weird, like Brett free episode. Um, add, uh, we’ll, we’ll the show notes are gonna be weird, uh, but we should put in the, the podcasts for, uh, uh, Rick Rubin [00:56:54] Jeffrey: Yes. I will put that stuff in Tyler creator too. [00:56:57] Christina: Tyler, the creator. And, um, if you have any links to, [00:57:00] um, the, the gentleman, the Mother Jones Rolling Stone guy. [00:57:03] Christina: Uh, [00:57:03] Jeffrey: Oh yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah, he’s still alive, [00:57:07] Christina: Well, no, I [00:57:07] Jeffrey: Chuck. [00:57:08] Christina: you know, [00:57:09] Jeffrey: He’s insane. [00:57:10] Christina: I, I, I, I asked because you know, like not everybody did, you know, like Michael Kelly, right? Like, [00:57:15] Jeffrey: no, I know. Totally, totally. [00:57:18] Christina: like [00:57:18] Jeffrey: I mean, I, yeah, I hear you loud and clear. [00:57:21] Christina: gonna, I I think it’s gonna be 20 years next week when Michael Kelly died, which would, you know, like I remember that because like, that was just like, you know. Yeah. Because he was like a journalism kind of like, you know, like big figurehead guy and, yeah. [00:57:36] Jeffrey: no, I mean this guy, he started doing work for the International Criminal Court and then became a ghost writer for George Soros. [00:57:46] Christina: Nice. So, [00:57:47] Jeffrey: his way [00:57:49] Christina: uh, yeah, he did the International Criminal Court. Now that would be interesting. Place to work for because holy shit, you talk about like the, like the, you talk about like the worst of the worst people, but also people who still deserve to have [00:58:00] like rights. But, but you’re lit, but you’re literally talking about the worst of the worst people. [00:58:05] Christina: And when you’re talking about the crim, the international criminal court, [00:58:08] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s a bad crew [00:58:09] Christina: Yeah, like, like the absolute like, yeah, [00:58:14] Jeffrey: like George W. Bush and all them. No, didn’t happen that way. [00:58:19] Christina: No, hey, but Trump did get indicted. [00:58:21] Jeffrey: I know, I know. I’m, I’m waiting for the perp walk. [00:58:24] Christina: I know. [00:58:24] Jeffrey: my wife this morning, I’m like, I don’t even know that I wanna celebrate it, but I kind of feel like I have to celebrate it. Um, so [00:58:31] Christina: I mean, look, he’s never gonna, he’s never gonna spend a day in jail. It’s just gonna be like when Tom delay, remember when Tom Delay did his, uh, um, mugshot and he was all smiling and whatnot for, for [00:58:41] Jeffrey: yep. [00:58:42] Christina: for his Oxycontin or whatever it was. [00:58:44] Jeffrey: Yeah, I mean, the thing, the thing is, a hundred magazines have already created their own illustration of [00:58:51] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:58:51] Jeffrey: a prison jumpsuit and just throughout his, his presidency. [00:58:56] Jeffrey: So it’s like we’re already just like desensitized to even that site if he, [00:59:00] if it were to come. [00:59:01] Christina: Oh, when it was money laundering? Not, not, not, um, Oxycontin. [00:59:04] Jeffrey: money laundering. [00:59:06] Christina: uh, it was Oxycontin was a, was a brush limba, um, back before we, back, before we cared, um, about the opiate crisis. Um, and everybody was just like, oh, it’s not a big deal. You know, it’s just a little, just a little pills. Um, [00:59:20] Jeffrey: Just a little pills. [00:59:22] Christina: just, just, just some pills. [00:59:23] Christina: Okay. All right. Well, um, this has been fun. Um, [00:59:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, totally. [00:59:29] Christina: fun episode. Uh, we’ve missed Brett. We will have him back. But, but I always love talking to you and I love hearing more about you and Yeah. You’ve got a book. You, you’ve got a book in there, uh, that I, that I love to read. [00:59:39] Jeffrey: And what do people do when they have books? They start podcasts. [00:59:43] Christina: This is true. This is true. Uh, hey, you’ve already got the podcast. You’ve already got that promotional ly. [00:59:48] Jeffrey: That’s right. That’s right. Nailed it. All right. [00:59:51] Christina: All right. Get some sleep. [00:59:53] Jeffrey: get some sleep. We should say it more aggressively. You get some [00:59:56] Christina: some sleep. Go to [00:59:57] Jeffrey: Why am I supposed to get sleep? [01:00:00] Get some sleep. [01:00:02] Outro: The.

From the Post Office to the latest in AI, you don’t need to know anything about oversized VHS boxes to enjoy this amazing episode. Sponsor Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired. Mental Chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. Join Khanh and Jules, people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chillness. Show Links Ken Thompson’s SCaLE 20x talk Metropolis Metropolis Wikipedia for restoration shit Tár Linus Sebastian LTT Store I almost bought a scanner and the HN thread GPT-4/Bard/the AI race GitHub Copilot X Retool’s amazing Visual Basic essay MacUpdater Whisper Aiko MacWhisper Petey Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Unchanging Institutions [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Jeff: Hello, this is the Overtired podcast. I am your host, Jeff Severs. Gunzel. I’m one of three hosts. Here comes another Christina Warren [00:00:11] Christina: Hello. [00:00:12] Jeff: and Brett Terpstra. [00:00:13] Brett: Oh, hey, [00:00:14] Jeff: Oh, hey, I [00:00:15] Brett: are you thinking about pink elephants [00:00:17] Jeff: am not thinking about pink elephants. Brett tried to psych me out [00:00:22] Brett: that is, that is, that is, uh, steel will, that is presence of mind. I appreciate that. [00:00:27] Jeff: Steel will. That’s, uh, that’s not the first time [00:00:30] Brett: that’s my porn name. [00:00:37] Jeff: Um, yeah, I look forward to seeing that a across a very large box that’s like, I feel like, um, porn when I was a kid came on vhs, but it came on vhs, but in, um, really big boxes. [00:00:51] Brett: Yeah. Why was that? [00:00:52] Jeff: I don’t know. Because you’re trying to be discreet, I assume, but instead you’re. [00:00:57] Brett: the one time I ever bought like hard copy [00:01:00] porn in my life, um, I ordered it on D V D and they sent it in this D V D case That was a like, uh, library of Congress exploration of like Mark Twain’s work. That’s what it said on like the dvd V case [00:01:16] Jeff: a little cover [00:01:17] Brett: e Even, even the DVD was labeled as such. [00:01:19] Brett: And then you pop it in and it’s like, it’s just porn. [00:01:23] Jeff: I mean, that’s just asking [00:01:25] Brett: one of the, so Ella and I, my girlfriend, we have known each other for like a decade and w she used to come over and hang out when, um, when a deedee was traveling, like a deedee actually, uh, arranged that. Because she knew that Elle and I were so similar in our like, behavior and, and conversation styles. [00:01:47] Brett: So she was like, this, this is the perfect hangout buddy for my, my husband. Um, [00:01:53] Jeff: too. Perfect. It turns out. [00:01:55] Christina: Yeah, [00:01:56] Brett: out, turned out, turned out really well for two of us. Um, but [00:02:00] uh, but Elle was going through our DVD collection and I had just like slipped in there. [00:02:05] Jeff: like, Ooh, mark Twain. [00:02:06] Brett: yeah, she was, I don’t remember if it was actually Mark Flame, but it was Library of Congress something, and she was very impressed that I had that [00:02:13] Jeff: So cultured. [00:02:14] Brett: had to admit that’s not what that is. [00:02:17] Jeff: That is, that is the last work of steel will. Steel Steel. William. Um, wow. All right. There’s that. There’s that. Where the hell do we go from there? [00:02:30] Brett: one of the things that holds up my relationship together is my willingness to read Instagram memes out loud on the couch to my girlfriend. She loves it. She, she will, she will request, Hey, could you see something funny? And then force me to listen to you, read it out loud. Um, this is, it’s like a staple of our relationship. [00:02:54] Brett: So, in that vein, I wanted to read you guys something I found today, [00:02:59] Jeff: Okay.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] Brett: only Christina, I think will appreciate this. [00:03:04] Jeff: Hmm. Hmm. [00:03:05] Brett: He was a boy. She was a girl. I am a sentient octopus. He was a punk. She did ballet. I have eight prehensile legs. He wanted her, she’d never tell. I crept up from the bowels of hell. All of her friends. [00:03:18] Brett: And those two as well will fall when the seas start to swell. He was a skater boy. She said, see you later. Boy, neither significant to me. I’m a cephalopod, a miniature elder God. And soon all my brethren will be free [00:03:31] Jeff: What is that? [00:03:34] Brett: It’s Af Levine, but with octopi. [00:03:36] Christina: but I was gonna say, I, I, here’s what was so funny, like literally from the minute you said like, like, you know, he was a boy. I was like, oh, okay. It’s an, it’s a skater boy. Um, thing. Like, I was like, I was like, I don’t know anything else about what this is, but I know that this is an Avril reference. [00:03:49] Christina: Like, instantly like, like, like, like from, from like the first, from like the first word you said. I was like, yep, I got it. I know this [00:03:56] Brett: I figured you would. [00:03:57] Christina: absolutely. [00:03:58] Brett: I actually, I actually [00:04:00] didn’t recognize it until it got to the, he was a skater boy. [00:04:02] Christina: Oh really? [00:04:03] Brett: Yeah, I’m a supple pod, a miniature elder God. Soon all my brethren will be free [00:04:10] Christina: God. Now the song is gonna be in my head for the rest of the day. [00:04:14] Brett: I’ve had, I’ve had suck by pig face in my head since this morning, but in the kitchen, when I started singing it, it came out, uh, Sinatra style. [00:04:26] Jeff: That’s nice. I like when that happens. [00:04:28] Brett: like it’s, uh, there is no God up in the sky tonight. Uh, no sign of heaven anywhere on sight. Like it just came out like a real, like, I obviously not like that. [00:04:38] Brett: I’m just telling you the words and you can [00:04:40] Jeff: Yeah, no, I can see it. [00:04:41] Brett: sing it for you, but I had a whole thing going. It was really, really, like a lot of swing to it. It was good [00:04:47] Jeff: Anything that rhymes tonight, you’re definitely in Sinatra territory. [00:04:53] Brett: So I feel like, I feel like we, we segue into Mental Health Corner as is our tradition. Um, [00:05:00] I I can kick it off if you like. [00:05:03] Jeff: Kick it off. [00:05:04] Brett: Fucking, everything’s normal. Like, not, not even, not even my usual, like, I’m so tired of being stable. Uh, like I’m just, I’m, I’m normal today. Like I feel, I feel social. I’m a little bit bummed because we’re going on a trip next week and l is, uh, I have gotten to a point with Covid where I’m like, you know what? [00:05:28] Brett: I’m good most of the year, but I’m willing to take a risk. For a vacation. Um, Elle is not at that point, and I had to like, cancel plans with my friends because she wants to like isolate before we leave so that she’s not putting her family in danger. And I get it. And our friend of the show, Brian would totally be on board with this, but me, I get very, uh, I get annoyed that I still have to think about it and, and I have to be careful making plans with friends that I will only [00:06:00] see once, maybe twice a year. [00:06:02] Brett: Um, and I have to like, arrange things with outdoor seating and masking and it annoys me. I’m, I’m just, I’m done. I’m, I have, I have covid fatigue for sure. [00:06:15] Jeff: I’ve noticed a lot more masks lately in Minneapolis. [00:06:19] Christina: Yeah. Um, I, I, I’ve, I’ve noticed some, but I’m also, I I’m where you were, uh, Brett, I got to that place like last year [00:06:26] Brett: Sure. Yeah, we all did. We all did. But I don’t leave the house much, so it hasn’t mattered. [00:06:31] Christina: no, I know you don’t. I know, but, but what I’m saying is like, I know exactly what you mean because that’s exactly where I was like a year ago. I was just like, I’m done, I’m done. [00:06:39] Christina: I’m, I’m done. Like, I, I’ve got it. Like I’m, I’ve been, you know, I’ve been okay, like, I’m done. I’m gonna do the right things If people, you know, want me to, to mask up or whatever, I will. But I’m not, I’m not doing the whole like, charade and I’m sorry. It, it has been a charade for, for the most part, you know, about like, oh, I’m not gonna go out. [00:06:59] Christina: I’m not gonna like [00:07:00] travel. I’m not gonna like, live my life. Like, [00:07:03] Brett: I mean, that’s not purely performative. That’s just extremely cautious. [00:07:07] Christina: No, most of it is performative. Some people, I think it is true, but I think it, it’s, it’s gotten to the point that for most people, in my experience, it is completely performative because the, the precautions they’re taking don’t even make any difference. Like, we’re all getting sick anyway. [00:07:21] Brett: we’re gonna hear from Brian [00:07:23] Christina: I’m not talking about Brian. [00:07:24] Christina: Like they, they have a different, they have a different, um, you know, like, like threat model. But, but I, I said most people, I said Mo and, and, you know, but, and, and, and I’m sorry. I think that’s, I think that’s absolutely true. Um, like it’s just, at this point I’m just like, okay, like you do all the right things and the, the masks, if you’re not wearing the right type of mask, it doesn’t even like, it’s like, [00:07:45] Brett: sure. I feel like at this, if at this point everyone’s down with the K or N 95, [00:07:51] Jeff: I disagree. I feel like, so I spend a lot of time at doctor’s offices lately, and, uh, it, the one they give out is just the, the [00:08:00] cheap paper mask. And then that seems to be what people are buying also. And not only that, but like, [00:08:05] Brett: performative. [00:08:05] Jeff: and not well, yeah. Not only that, but when I’m at the doctor, I’m noticing more and more like nurses, uh, you know, the, as a group nurses have a fair amount of conservatives among them, and I’m, and I’m noticing a lot of noses. [00:08:19] Jeff: So they’re not only wearing like a mask that really isn’t designed to keep covid from spreading. I’m sure it has some impact, but it, it’s not designed to do that. But, uh, but now there’s noses as well, and, and that’s the part that’s really frustrating and feels kind of, I mean, it feels performative, but I don’t even, it’s not even that that bothers me. [00:08:38] Jeff: It’s more that how quickly we just threw away the idea of like, this is the kind of mask that works, you know, [00:08:47] Brett: Well, so here’s, here’s, here’s my pitch for k N 95 masks with the little metal band that goes over your nose. You can talk to someone for five minutes without. [00:09:00] Every 30 seconds having to pull your mask back [00:09:03] Jeff: Yeah. Right, right, right. [00:09:04] Brett: I watch like city council meetings where the people yelling at the council have, have shitty masks on, and they’re like, the whole time, it’s just this constant distraction of pulling their mask up over their nose. [00:09:17] Brett: Just get k n 95 masks. They’re so, they’re, they stay in place. They’re so much better and effective and they actually, you know, provide some protection [00:09:26] Jeff: Yeah, [00:09:27] Brett: for you and everyone else. But anyway, so I’m looking, I’m gonna see, uh, Dan Peterson and hopefully Dave Chartier, uh, in Chicago, and then have breakfast with friend of the show, Aaron Dawson. [00:09:42] Brett: Um, if, if all goes well and, and we come up with plans that are safe for everybody, that is, that’s my, that’s my Saturday and Sunday, and then I’m in Michigan for a week and it’s gonna be a lot like, what was it? Dusty or Sandy, what was your place in Utah [00:10:00] called [00:10:01] Jeff: Sandy, Utah. [00:10:03] Brett: Sandy, Utah. It’s go, it’s gonna, it’s, it’s gonna be a little depressing. [00:10:07] Brett: Uh, we got a Airbnb, um, and there’s not a lot around. I might make a trip to, um, mis, uh, to Ann Arbor. Um, I don’t, do you guys know Marina Appleman? [00:10:20] Christina: Yes. She’s the best. [00:10:21] Brett: I haven’t told her I’m coming yet, [00:10:23] Christina: No, you have to, no. Yeah. [00:10:24] Brett: she’s in Ann Arbor and, and if I get a chance, I would like to see her. It’ll be fun. [00:10:29] Christina: She’s fantastic. She’s fantastic. Um, I, I got to meet her in person. Um, she came to when she was in New York once and um, she’s, she’s, she’s so [00:10:38] Brett: just awesome. She’s [00:10:39] Christina: the best. [00:10:41] Brett: Russian. She’ll tell you stories about Sylvia, Russia. It’ll be [00:10:45] Christina: Also like, because she’s been through it, like she’s just, I lo I love her cuz she’s just like very direct and like funny [00:10:51] Brett: and so smart. [00:10:52] Christina: so fucking smart. Like brilliant. She’s, uh, she teaches, she’s a math or economics or something at, um, at math. Math at um, [00:10:59] Brett: like [00:11:00] applied mathematics, I think, [00:11:01] Christina: Yeah. I was gonna say some, some, it’s better than like, normal math. [00:11:04] Christina: Yeah. Um, at a, um, at uh, um, Ann Arbor. Um, so yeah, [00:11:09] Brett: she’ll probably, she’ll probably, uh, I’ll, I’ll tell her. We talked about her. She’ll listen to this and tell me, you have no idea what I actually teach. Do you? And I’ll say it’s over my head. I, I don’t really know. [00:11:20] Christina: smart. Honestly. Like we, we, we know that it’s really good. We know that it’s a very, very good school and that it’s something like very, very like smart, [00:11:29] Brett: Very smart. Uh, she taught me how to say late tech. Uh, she, she corrected me back in [00:11:35] Jeff: I thought it’s LA Tech. [00:11:37] Brett: so there, as long as you get the sound at the end, as long as you don’t say the X, [00:11:42] Christina: right? Which I did [00:11:43] Brett: you can say LA Tech. You can say LA Tech. You can say latex. As long as you don’t say latex. [00:11:49] Jeff: And why is the ex, [00:11:52] Brett: Really good question. I bet she would know the answer. [00:11:54] Christina: it because it came from tech, which was like the, I, the, the, the, I don’t know, ask the fucking Unix [00:12:00] guys is the only thing I can get in with that. [00:12:02] Jeff: yeah. Yeah. You know what? That would be a great podcast. Ask the fucking Unix [00:12:07] Christina: I mean, [00:12:07] Jeff: your host, Jeff Severance. I’m here with Christina Warren. Brett Terpstra. [00:12:11] Christina: Um, I, I got to meet, um, uh, Ken Thompson, uh, very briefly at a scale a couple weeks ago, and he was lovely. And, um, he’s 80 and he’s still programming and doing cool things. His, the video of his talk actually went up and it got on Hacker News and there were a number of people who were acting just like some of the assholes in the room who were like, they wanted, they were expecting him to talk about Unix and go, and he didn’t. [00:12:35] Christina: Instead he like shared this very human and like, kind of personal story about this thing that he called it like his 75 year like project, but it’s really been this thing that he’s been actively working on. Since the eighties where he’s like digitized every like, recorded song from like the 19 hundreds to like the, like 19 hundreds to, to 1999 or, or whatever. [00:12:57] Christina: And, um, uh, it, it’s, he [00:13:00] basically created Napster is, is, is the longest, the short of it, but, but it’s, but it’s actually pretty incredible. Like, like he legally obtained all these songs and stuff and then encoded them and, and like there’s player pianos and it’s not just recorded stuff, but also things like, stuff that beyond like player piano scrolls and other sorts of, um, media. [00:13:17] Christina: And, um, anyway, it was a really great talk, but when he finished giving this talk, and I, I’d met him the day before and I was just like, kind of fangirling. I was like, thank you for everything you’ve given us, you know, because you know Ken Thompson. And, um, he told me, he was like, I’m nervous about my talk. [00:13:34] Christina: And I was like, oh, that’s gonna be, And then a guy asked at the end, he was basically like, why did you just waste our time? He didn’t say, why did you waste our time? But that was the undercurrent. He was like, I was expecting you to talk about Go or Unix or this or that. Why did you just talk about this thing? [00:13:47] Christina: And, and like very much the undercurrent was like, why, why did you just like waste our time in this? And, and I, I was so pissed at the time. I, I wanted to boo the guy and I didn’t because that, you know, that’s, that’s, you don’t do that. [00:14:00] Christina don’t do that. But I, I do regret not having like, at the end, like when, when Ken was almost sort of apologizing now not yelling at like, we love you Ken. [00:14:08] Christina: Because I think that the vast majority of the audience really enjoyed it. But there were some people on and Hacker News who were like, Well, actually in certain things, they’re like, well, you know, he’s not that I, I don’t understand why everybody, you know, like, like kisses his ass so much. He was, he was factually wrong about some things when he came by the Debbie and Booth. [00:14:26] Christina: And I’m like, the dude is 80 years old and, and, and, and he, he did, he did, he wasn’t aware of like a raspberry pie shortage because it doesn’t affect him personally. Like, fuck you. Like, [00:14:36] Jeff: everybody fucking knows about what happens at the Debbie and Booth fucking stays at the Debbie and [00:14:40] Christina: Exactly. Exactly. [00:14:41] Brett: It’s the first rule of Debbie in Booth. [00:14:43] Christina: it, it really is. But no, you know, but you had like some people in Hacker News who were just being total like dicks about some of the stuff, but I thought it was like a really beautiful, um, story. Anyway, that was a tangent that came out of you talking about the, the, we should have the, the ask the Unix guys. [00:14:58] Brett: really enjoyed that [00:15:00] one. [00:15:00] Jeff: just be, it could be a [00:15:01] Brett: that tangent, [00:15:03] Christina: But, but seriously in the show notes. So we’ll have a link to the, the video from scale because it’s a really great talk and, and I think it’s just like, in its simplicity and like in its humanness, like I actually thought it was, it was really compelling. Um, I also, like, I definitely get the sense that, that Mr. [00:15:17] Christina: Thompson’s probably on the spectrum of some sort, because he’s dedicated all this time and, and all this work into like digitizing and cataloging all this music. I don’t get the sense that he’s listened to much of the music other than like figuring out how it could be as losslessly encoded as possible. [00:15:34] Christina: Like that, that like, I, I didn’t real, I didn’t get a sense that it w I got, you know what I mean? Like, I didn’t get a sense that it was anything more of like, I need to complete this thing other than like, I, I, I have great love for the, for the works themselves. [00:15:46] Brett: Do either of you know what that condition is called where you don’t like music or like music has no effect on you at all? You don’t feel anything you don’t hear. [00:15:55] Christina: yeah, I’ve heard of that. He, and he doesn’t have that, but I don’t know. Um, I [00:16:00] know [00:16:00] Brett: a, I have a friend with that Allison Sheridan. She’s not shy about it. Um, she runs the pod feet podcast and like, just music means nothing to her. Like she could hear it and like, if it doesn’t actively annoy her, it just has like no meaning. Uh, there’s no like, like I feel stuff when I listen to music. [00:16:21] Brett: Like that’s the whole point of music for most people I think cuz like feeling things that would be so weird. Anyway, anyway, sorry Christina, how’s your mental. [00:16:30] Christina: Um, pretty good. It’s pretty good. Um, it’s been kind of a, it’s a busy work week and it’s gonna continue to kind of be, you know, busy for the next, you know, few days and into next week and stuff. But, um, it’s pretty good. Uh, grant is out of town. He went to go visit his brother, who he has not seen in person in, I don’t know, in probably, probably 15 years. [00:16:50] Christina: They, well, they, they had a falling out for a while and they haven’t been talking, and then they started talking like a year and change ago for the first time in a really long time. [00:17:00] So he’s in Hawaii with his brother, seems to be going well. So I’ve got like, so I’m like in this interesting thing where I’m like, alone in the house, um, which is kind of nice. [00:17:11] Christina: I mean, I, I, I, it, it, I’m kind of like, it’s kind of weird, but it’s like I haven’t been alone in, in this space. Like I’ve been alone like other places, but I haven’t been alone here in like [00:17:21] Brett: you talk to yourself when you’re alone in the house? [00:17:24] Christina: No. [00:17:24] Brett: you say things out loud to yourself? Oh, [00:17:27] Christina: not really, not, not so much sometimes maybe, but like, I not, not, not really, like, I think out loud to myself a lot, but I don’t, you know what I mean? [00:17:35] Christina: Like, I, I think stuff to myself, I’m like, what the fuck are you doing? But I don’t, I don’t usually verbalize it, but, [00:17:40] Brett: I like narrate my life when I’m all alone and no [00:17:43] Christina: oh, I love [00:17:44] Brett: I just, I just say it all out [00:17:46] Jeff: Like Ron Howard in the rest of development. [00:17:48] Christina: Yeah. Oh, I love that. [00:17:52] Jeff: That’s awesome. [00:17:53] Brett: which is no longer on Netflix, even though they produced the last two seasons of it, [00:17:57] Christina: is so fucked up. And, and we talked about it. Yeah, it’s a [00:18:00] stupid rights thing. They, they had like a, a 10 year, um, I guess contract and they didn’t wanna renew it. And the shitty thing is, is you can get season four from iTunes or, or Google Play or whatever, but season five, they never released as a way to buy. [00:18:13] Christina: And then the season four remix, which actually made season four better, was also not released on home video. So the only way you can get it is if you pirate it, which is fucking stupid. So it’s, it’s so dumb. And, and because Netflix co-produced it, some people are like, oh, it’ll just show up on, on, you know, um, Hulu or whatever, and I’m like, no, Netflix like, paid for the co-production, so it, you know, they’d have to buy them out and, and I doubt Disney cares. [00:18:38] Christina: So it, it’s just shitty. [00:18:40] Brett: Yeah, [00:18:41] Jeff: That sucks. [00:18:43] Brett: it does. [00:18:44] Jeff: Um, I, uh, I went and saw the movie Metropolis on Sunday. [00:18:52] Brett: With, [00:18:53] Christina: Oh wow. [00:18:53] Brett: with which, with what? Soundtrack? [00:18:56] Jeff: It’s the original one and the soundtrack was actually a man on an [00:19:00] organ. [00:19:00] Brett: Yes. [00:19:00] Jeff: Um, live but live. [00:19:02] Brett: Minneapolis. I saw, uh, a live production. Uh, this was back in like, uh, maybe 1999, uh, 98, 99. I saw, uh, they showed, I can’t remember the name of the theater. Something Oak [00:19:16] Jeff: But yeah, the Oak Street Cinema, it’s long gone. It was a great one. [00:19:19] Brett: And they showed. They showed it and they had a live organ accompaniment. It was fantastic. It was really fun. [00:19:25] Jeff: Yeah, that’s what, that’s what happened here. Um, and it was the full, like almost three hour version of Metropolis, uh, such a cool story where they found like a complete version in Argentina, but it was 16 millimeter. And so they have to like, and then they, they were able to restore missing scenes, uh, via description, I think based on the Nazis censorship files, um, from the movie. [00:19:49] Jeff: I mean, it’s really, but I bring it up just because like, I, I mean, even though I missed movies so much during the pandemic, I have not made great [00:20:00] use of movie theaters since it has essentially ended and. have been so in my head lately that took on a new role with my organization, taking on a new project that it was just wonderful to just lay back in a seat and, and, and let someone tell me or show me a story. [00:20:20] Jeff: Um, especially that one, I, I’ve always wanted to watch it. I had no idea how fucking good it was. I mean, I heard obviously [00:20:28] Christina: I mean, yeah, [00:20:29] Jeff: Yeah. Like you hear about it forever. [00:20:31] Christina: no, but, but, but to your point, like you got to see like the definitive version because, I’m trying to think cuz I’ve seen, I’ve seen it a couple times, but I think the only time I saw it with like, the live, maybe accompaniment was the one that they, it was like 2002, but then they found like another copy or they found like other stuff after that. [00:20:51] Christina: And, and I, and I, I saw that one, but I don’t remember if it had the live accompaniment or not. Or, and I think I saw it, but I might not have, I [00:21:00] might just be like misremembering that I might, I might, might think that I saw it and instead I read about it. Um, [00:21:05] Brett: It works as a silent movie, like you can, you can get in, you can get involved in it without a soundtrack, but it is a different experience to see it where the company meant. [00:21:17] Jeff: I was amazed at, especially, I don’t know if it’s Briget or Bridget Helm, the, the woman who plays Maria, sort of the star of the movie, she plays two different Marias. One is a robot clone and one is the actual Maria. So she has, and she’s dressed the same in both cases, and so she has to, in a silent film, make it clear when you’re looking at, you know, like the clone Maria or the real Maria and the acting that it took to make that real. [00:21:45] Jeff: Amazing. She was amazing. And I was surprised to feel so many things in that movie. Generally. I thought it was gonna be sort of an academic, uh, thing to watch that movie. But anyway, it was, it, what it was for [00:22:00] me also though, was just like, it just got out of my head. It was just awesome. It was so nice to be in a story other than one I’m telling myself. [00:22:08] Jeff: Um, and then just a little piece of trivia came out of it. That’s fucking nuts. Which is that, so this woman, let’s call her Bridget Helm. This was her first movie. 1927. She’s amazing. She did a bunch of more movies before retiring in 1935 because the Nazis had taken over the film ministry and it disgust disgusted her. [00:22:30] Jeff: Um, but there’s a really crazy little piece to her history, which is she was apparently involved in several traffic accidents. This is on the Wiki Wikipedia page, um, and was even briefly imprisoned, right? Um, and one of her, uh, one of her accidents ended up in a death. And so she was facing charges of manslaughter and there was a certain person in power at the time who noticed she had a case and, and got it dropped. [00:22:58] Jeff: That person [00:23:00] was her fan, Adolf Hitler. So I was thinking how much it would fuck me up if a, I had killed someone in a car accident. B had the elation, the strange, guilty elation of having that case dropped, and C was recognizing over the course of the next 10 years what it meant that Adolf Hitler was that man. [00:23:24] Jeff: Cause I mean, [00:23:25] Brett: that’s a real rollercoaster. [00:23:27] Jeff: oh my God. [00:23:28] Christina: Okay. So that, so that right there, that’s like a movie like, like that, that’s, that, that, that’s, that’s like, okay. Cuz uh, did, did either of you see tar? [00:23:36] Jeff: No, [00:23:37] Christina: It’s great. [00:23:38] Jeff: yeah. Here. [00:23:39] Christina: Kate Blanch had, uh, um, Todd Field and it’s, it’s, you know, fake, but it’s, it’s great. But like that to me almost feels like, Like, you could do a, a, a, a tar like thing, but about her, like, like that would actually be an interesting sort of sort of thing. [00:23:53] Christina: Like, you know, to do kind of like a character study on, on this, this, this woman who has to deal with that stuff too. And then it’s [00:24:00] also like, okay, this is your first big role. It’s this, this, you know, masterpiece, but then it happens at this, you know, time and then all these other things happen and having to grapple with it. [00:24:07] Christina: Like, um, what’s her face? The, uh, the, um, the Nazi, um, uh, documentarian, um, uh, who, who did um, um, uh, triumph, the will, um, [00:24:18] Jeff: Oh, [00:24:18] Christina: uh, um, um, um, you, you know what I’m, you know exactly who I’m talking about. Um, [00:24:23] Jeff: it up so we get it [00:24:24] Christina: uh, Lil Gral. Um, [00:24:28] Jeff: Got it. [00:24:28] Christina: knew it would come to me. Um, [00:24:30] Brett: just gotta give her a sec. She [00:24:31] Christina: I, I was gonna [00:24:32] Brett: there. [00:24:33] Christina: with this stuff. I do. No, but that’s, uh, you know, like I’ve always, there’ve been a lot of talks over the years about like, wanting to make films about her story. [00:24:43] Christina: And, and that has also, but, but that’s complicated for so many reasons. And, uh, but, but that, that, that’s another character who I’m like, oh, she’s so flawed. And not, not to say that this actress is, cause I, I think it’s totally different. But just to talk about kind of like in that era of, you know, aligning yourself [00:25:00] with these, these people right. [00:25:02] Christina: With, with someone like Hiller and, and having it tied directly to your art form and being completely, you know, like, um, unretractable from it, which obviously again, like. She as an actress, didn’t like she, she’d quit because she didn’t wanna be doing those things and, and made that stand and still wound up benefiting, uh, from, uh, fur Anyway. [00:25:21] Christina: But anyway, just has me thinking about, uh, ri install, cuz that’s whole thing is just really interesting. There’s so many interesting stories, I think, uh, about like ethics and, and um, uh, art and, you know, like, I don’t know. It’s just, it’s fascinating to think about. [00:25:39] Brett: Here’s, here’s the little rabbit hole I just went down. So I, I was using search link to, to build out our show notes, and I have a TMDb, uh, like the movie database, uh, which is like imdb, but actually has an API that you can search. Um, so Search link returned, uh, for Metropolis [00:26:00] return slash movie slash 19. [00:26:02] Brett: And I was like, oh, do they do these in some kind of, [00:26:05] Christina: That’s what I [00:26:05] Brett: uh, chronological order is like, and so what’s number 18? Number 18 is the fifth element. And number two, there’s no number one, number one returns. The, uh, 4 0 4 number two returns. What was it? [00:26:21] Christina: Ariel. It’s Ariel. I’ve never heard of this. Ariel a, a drama comedy crime from, from K rated k12. So it’s foreign, but it is a, it is available on the Criterion, um, uh, collection, uh, service, which I have. [00:26:36] Brett: how these, I wonder where these IDs come from, though. [00:26:39] Christina: Yeah, me too. I’m like, I’m like very interested now. Yeah. Cause it’s on the Criterion Channel. [00:26:43] Christina: This is a finished. [00:26:45] Brett: in Paradise. Four doesn’t exist. Five is four rooms that I love. Four rooms, but I don’t see how that comes before Metropolis, uh, in any numbering system. [00:26:58] Jeff: Someone needs to watch those [00:27:00] films in order, uh, [00:27:01] Christina: Yeah. Oh, okay. That okay. Okay. Okay. You just invented a podcast, like a [00:27:06] Jeff: Yeah, [00:27:06] Christina: podcast that, that would appeal to like letter [00:27:10] Brett: in order. [00:27:11] Christina: No, but honestly, I, I, I bet you would have a bunch of people on letterbox that would totally be like down for that [00:27:17] Jeff: Right, right, right. [00:27:18] Brett: My favorite. My [00:27:19] Christina: the T M D B podcast. [00:27:21] Brett: The only line I remember from four rooms, like I enjoyed the movie, but the only line I remember is Madonna saying hell of a night haunted. And that comes up for me all the time. Anytime something weird happens, I just say hell of a night haunted. And then I have to like pause and remember why I say that, where that came from. [00:27:41] Brett: Um, which reminds me favorite line from I’m, I’m rewatching BoJack Horseman right now. My favorite line this week was, it’s hard to describe, but I also don’t know it if I see it. [00:27:57] Jeff: That’s awesome. [00:27:58] Brett: so Jeff Mental Health [00:28:00] Corner. [00:28:00] Jeff: That was it. [00:28:01] Brett: That was it, huh? [00:28:02] Jeff: Well, cuz the, the whole bit about it takes me outta my head [00:28:06] Christina: Yeah, it’s good. Which, which I think is beautiful. I’m glad you got to experience that. Um, and now I’m remembering I did not see, I, I have seen the, the rest, the restored version, but I didn’t have any sort of live accompaniment. So it was just like, whatever, whatever, um, version of the score they were allowed to, to. [00:28:21] Christina: Get, um, on that Wikipedia page, you will find out, unsurprisingly, this, that film with which there are multiple versions and lost things and whatnot, there have been fights over like who was allowed to like, create scores and, and not scores and, um, other stuff. But now it’s, but, but now it’s all in the public domain, so that’s also [00:28:41] Jeff: As of this year, I think. [00:28:43] Christina: Yeah. That, that’s, yeah. As, as, as of January, um, first, which, uh, it, it hit the, um, the 95 year mark or whatever. Um, [00:28:51] Jeff: That’s awesome. Brett is apparently cleaning his gun. [00:28:54] Brett: So I have, I have this, I have this screwdriver from like, I fix it [00:29:00] and you can like rotate it and it, every time you rotate it and push it in, it brings up a different screw head, uh, or like a different bit. And I broke it and now I can’t push it in or turn it. And now I [00:29:11] Jeff: that what you’ve been fucking clicking the last three episodes? [00:29:15] Brett: no. [00:29:16] Jeff: I’m editing them, I hear this. [00:29:18] Brett: my fidget, my fidget toy is a, is a lock blade that snaps open and I sit and I fidget and I don’t even realize I’m doing it, but I sit and [00:29:28] Christina: need to get you a quiet [00:29:29] Brett: it. Yeah, yeah. Let’s, let’s make that, if any listeners have a good suggestion for a fidget toy that Brett can use while podcasting, but I’ve, I’ve officially, I’ve officially broken this, this driver and in the process, oh, there’s the problem. [00:29:47] Brett: There’s a bit stuck halfway. Anyway, um, I have, I have, I have lost eight, eight small screwdriver bits in the process. You know, I’m gonna have to like cut it open. It’s gonna be a whole thing. [00:29:58] Jeff: Stay tuned to the next [00:30:00] episode. Hit us up on Discord. [00:30:04] Christina: Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, what do I have? I have my, uh, my, my, my Linus Tech tips, uh, screwdriver came in and, uh, it’s pretty nice. Um, uh, uh, he, he spent a lot of money and a lot of time building a ratcheting screwdriver. [00:30:18] Brett: to vaults like [00:30:20] Christina: No, no, no. Like, no, no. Like the YouTuber, um, uh, um, uh, lions Sebastian, who has like a very popular YouTube channel and, and they employ a bunch of people. [00:30:30] Christina: Um, it’s like a mini empire. He like made his own tools and it’s not bad. [00:30:35] Brett: I’m gonna, I’m gonna add that to our show notes mostly because I feel like I need to check this out. [00:30:40] Christina: Mm. [00:30:41] Brett: I’m a fan of popular YouTubers. People keep, people keep turning me onto new YouTubers and I’m like, I’ve never heard of that. And I get there and they have like 3 million subscribers or more, and I’m like, everyone knows about this but me. [00:30:56] Brett: It’s not even TikTok. Like I, I’m not surprised when I haven’t heard of someone on [00:31:00] TikTok, cuz I, I don’t go to TikTok, but I spend a lot of time on YouTube and yet I’m constantly surprised by very popular creators I’ve never heard of. And it’s all, it’s the algorithm. Like I find stuff on YouTube because YouTube suggests it to me, and if it doesn’t suggest it, I have no reason to know about it. [00:31:19] Christina: Exactly. [00:31:21] Jeff: It’s a very important service in our lives. Um, can I say my post office bit [00:31:27] Brett: Yes. [00:31:29] Jeff: or should we do a sponsor? [00:31:31] Brett: Oh, we should probably do a sponsor. [00:31:33] Christina: All right. This episode is brought to you by Collide. Our sponsor, collide has some big news. If you’re an Okta user, they can get your entire fleet to 100% compliance. How? Well, if a device isn’t compliant, the user can’t log into your cloud apps until they fix the problem. It’s that simple. And what Collide does is they patch one of the major holes in zero trust architecture, which is device compliance, making sure that everything is [00:32:00] updated and running what it needs to be running and provision the right way. [00:32:03] Christina: And without collide it struggles to solve basic problems like keeping everyone’s OS and browser up to date. Uh, you might know, you know, iOS has had to release a couple of zero day patches. Google just released a big one, uh, for the Pixel seven and I, and I think, uh, the Pixel six as well. And, uh, unsecured devices are logging into your company’s apps because there’s nothing to stop them. [00:32:26] Christina: Clyde is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance as part of authentication, and it’s built to work seamlessly with Okta. The moment that Collides agent detects a problem, it alerts the user and gives them instructions to fix it. And if they don’t fix the problem within a set period of time, they’re blocked. [00:32:44] Christina: They’re blocked. That’s it. They can’t access anything. Collides method means fewer support tickets, less frustration, and most importantly, 100% fleet compliance. So you can visit collide.com/ Overtired to learn more or to [00:33:00] book a demo. That’s K O L I D e.com/ Overtired collide.com/ Overtired. [00:33:08] Brett: I’m so glad you realized that I made a mistake and, uh, it. Overtired too, and without a space. And you, you nailed it. You saw that and you’re like, that’s not right. I’m gonna, I’m gonna read it the way it should be. That was very good. Um, we also are, uh, talking once again about, uh, another mental health podcast that we love. [00:33:33] Brett: Uh, mental Chillness. If you’re looking for more mental health podcasts, mental Chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. It’s led by Khan and Jules, two people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chill. [00:33:53] Brett: Coming from childhood environments that weren’t open about mental wellbeing and emotional self-regulation, [00:34:00] K and jewels are opening up the conversation of everyday struggles of dealing with A D H D, depression and anxiety, epilepsy and growing into adulthood. They share tips and tricks of emotional awareness from their personal experiences and how they hold themselves accountable through personal bs. [00:34:18] Brett: And the way they know how to do it best is with humor. You can keep up with them on any podcast platform and YouTube channel. Mental chillness for full video contents. Thanks. Mental chillness. Uh, they’re also talking about us. [00:34:32] Brett: So sweet deal there. [00:34:34] Jeff: Say nice things, please, [00:34:35] Christina: Please. [00:34:37] Brett: Um, just real quick before we do the post office, I, I just have to, I just have to say I did a, I did a poll on Macedon and usually if I do a poll on Twitter with 13,000 followers, I’ll get maybe 40, 50 responses. Uh, people that actually vote on [00:35:00] Maidan. I have 2000 followers and I did a poll about what programming language I should learn next. [00:35:05] Brett: And I got a hundred some responses including multiple people that wanted to write in new options and it was very productive and I love Macedon and I’m learning Rust Next. As a result, I kind of already knew that I was already planning, but I just wanted to see like, is go a contender? Uh, should I be learning Scala? [00:35:28] Brett: No, it’s rust. I’m going with Rust. But anyway, let’s talk post office. [00:35:34] Jeff: All I have to say about the post office is that, so I sell, uh, I sell shit on eBay. Like, like I. Used to go to auctions for like steel factories and shit, and I, and I sell kind of obscure consumable Sunny Bay. It’s just something I enjoy. Um, and so I go to the post office and I was walking into the post office the other day and I was like, this is one of the only things I can [00:36:00] think of that is a major piece of life that has not changed in my entire. And I mean at all, right? Like most post offices, like even like whatever fucking computer they have at the desk has been there since computers started. And I was trying to think of other things and I’m curious if you have any of those. I mean, cuz really there’s nothing like the post office. And if I were to explain it to you now, if I were to say there’s this thing where if you put a certain sticky thing onto an envelope, a man will come and pick it up. [00:36:31] Jeff: Or a woman man in my case will come and pick it up and they will make sure that it gets across the country to a person’s house. If I told you that, it would sound like it was 400 years ago. [00:36:44] Brett: I was gonna say that DMV hasn’t changed much, but it has, [00:36:48] Jeff: Mm. [00:36:48] Brett: I, I still, if I go to my DMV here in town, like I still have to fill out a lot of paper. Like it’s not electronic, but simply the [00:37:00] advent of digital cameras has changed the entire DMV experience and license renewal process. So, and I feel like the post office has changed in small ways. [00:37:09] Brett: Um, like handwriting recognition, for example. [00:37:13] Jeff: fundamentally, if you wanna send a package, you walk in with your box and hand it to a person who puts it in a bin that is also 400 years old. [00:37:20] Brett: Yeah. And, and they go with zip codes. And when it gets down to the finer details, it’s up to whoever your postal carrier is to figure out the quirks in, in addressing, I get, I get stuff delivered to me fairly often that has the address wrong, but has my name right. And if this were a purely automated system, that that would’ve been returned to sender because it was the wrong address, but it gets to the right route. [00:37:48] Brett: And then my postal carrier’s like, oh yeah, Brett, I know Brett. Here, here, here’s your mail. [00:37:53] Jeff: at the punk planet offices, we used to get, we also got, we got this regular catalog about Chick sexing, which is about,[00:38:00] [00:38:00] Brett: sorry, what? [00:38:00] Jeff: chick sexing, which is not what it sounds like. It’s about, it’s about, uh, [00:38:05] Brett: I, yeah. Birds are bird. Birds are notoriously hard to. [00:38:09] Jeff: So we would get this, this Chick sexing catalog, a addressed to punk planetarium , which was amazing. Anyway, uh, that, that’s my think, that’s my little thought puzzle. The DMV isn’t a bad answer. I mean, it’s changed, but [00:38:26] Brett: it has, but it, I mean, still it’s still a toil when it really shouldn’t be like, that. Seems like a process rife for a lot more automation and efficiency. [00:38:37] Jeff: It seems like getting arrested probably hasn’t changed that much. You know what I mean? Like it, it’s like you still probably do your fingerprints, although it’s probably on a computer, I guess. Remember when this is? I will, I promise not to go down anymore of memory lane after this, but like, remember when running a credit card was like they had that, that thing that was like the size of a [00:38:57] Brett: the Xerox [00:38:58] Jeff: and they would put it down [00:39:00] and they would just make a copy of it. [00:39:02] Brett: I do remember [00:39:03] Jeff: Okay, I’m done. [00:39:04] Brett: Christina might not remember, but that was definitely early credit card days for me. [00:39:08] Jeff: go through any machine at all. They just made a [00:39:10] Brett: it was, it was barely faster than writing a check. [00:39:13] Christina: Yeah, I, I, okay, so I do remember this because when I worked my very first job, we, if the machine was down, I would have to pull this massive thing out from underneath the, the counter, pull it back up, and then, you know, and then like pull out some Simpson paper, you know, make an imprint of the card, you know, to, to put it in. [00:39:32] Christina: And like, that’s what we would do. If, if the bank, if the modem or whatever, you know, was, was on on, on the po o s was down, I would have to like manually, um, make, make a copy, make an imprint of a card. But, um, that was only at that first job. Best Buy. Did not have Best Buy, buy that era already was like, no, we don’t, we’re completely, you know, digitized. [00:39:52] Christina: Um, if, if the machine is down too bad, um, but, uh, , but, but good old, um, EB games. Um, you know, if [00:40:00] somebody needed to pay with a credit card for their Pokemon cards, um, or, uh, you know, uh, final Fantasy eight or whatever, um, then, uh, then they could, uh, or, or their Dreamcast or whatever. Uh, and, and the system was down. [00:40:12] Christina: I could still take it in front of their card, but yeah. [00:40:16] Brett: For some reason, my, my instinct now, which we are not going to indulge, but my instinct is to talk about mimeographs and, and those, those, [00:40:27] Christina: I’ve only read about. [00:40:28] Jeff: That smell? [00:40:29] Brett: Those overhead projectors that teacher used to put, uh, like a clear, like laminate over and then write on with marker and it would project in front of [00:40:39] Christina: 100%. Uh, transparent, transparent things. Yeah, I, I used to print those. I, I used to, I used to, um, get those so that you could print on them with like my inkjet printer. So that you could, like, then I could like, give presentations like in like sixth grade and be like, oh, look at how fancy I am. [00:40:53] Christina: Yeah. With like, with like my, my, my, my, my well printed stuff or whatnot. But yeah, you would get, um, what, what were it was [00:41:00] called, um, they were um, cuz there overhead projectors. But, but, but they, but they were, there was like a [00:41:04] Brett: was a, there was a word for it. There was like, there was like a one word name. Then you knew what was happening. I can’t remember. [00:41:11] Jeff: you know it, listeners shouted, shouted at the speaker. [00:41:14] Christina: yeah. I [00:41:15] Brett: she yell it out right [00:41:16] Christina: I was gonna say I’m only aware of Mimeographs because they were mentioned in like Judy Bloom books that were like, written in the seventies and I was like, what is this, what is this? Like I have no concept of what this is. It’s like, this sounds like a shittier version of like a Xerox machine and, and that’s what it was. [00:41:30] Christina: Um, but, but like I, you know, didn’t, didn’t know, um, never had to experience that. But I, I did have the um, uh, you know, the, the overhead projector stuff cuz like, that’s what they would do in like math and shit. Like, you know, [00:41:43] Brett: Well, so [00:41:44] Christina: and. [00:41:45] Brett: there’s this interesting, yeah. Like Xerox has come a long way, uh, to use a brand name, but photocopy has come a long way. However, there have been recent issues where, because in [00:42:00] order, yeah, in order to, to most effectively and accurately copy a document, a black and white document, most modern copiers will actually scan and OCR and then rewrite. [00:42:17] Brett: So people are running copies and getting. Copies with different words or different numbers, more importantly, different numbers in the output than in the input, which is never a, never a problem back in the days of just photocopy when it was literally photocopying. [00:42:35] Christina: yeah, no, exactly. This is, this is, um, yeah, this is, uh, I, I, I read about this recently, um, about how like, uh, it’ll randomly alter, you know, numbers or whatever. Um, and some of this stuff, um, it, it’ll like, it, it’s like, um, this flock think apparently goes back like a decade now that I’m looking about it, but, but I, I, we must have seen it at this from the same place, Brett, because I saw it recently too and I was reminded of this and I was like, oh, this is so interesting. [00:42:59] Christina: Yeah, I did [00:43:00] too. And, and um, and, and, but you’re right cuz it is this weird thing cuz you’re like, okay, well they should have just done like the old method of like the, the, the, you know, um, uh, circular drum or whatever the method is, and just take the, take the, the photograph. And I understand that in most cases it is better to just, you know, like do the OCR and whatnot, but clearly it’s not always the case. [00:43:22] Christina: There was this other thing, there was this other thing that I read, um, on hacker. Um, a couple months ago, I’ll see if I can find it, but there’s this guy who’s been, he basically, uh, was trying to figure out, I guess if it was worth like a, he was doing some sort of big photography project and he was wanting to do like a big, uh, uh, 35 millimeter, um, scans and the, the types of machines that are made for this sort of thing. [00:43:45] Christina: Um, unfortunately the, the software that, uh, the, the main maker who made these machines, which were like many tens of thousands of dollars, they stopped support. Mac os passed a certain point, and, and I don’t think they ever, uh, you know, upgraded [00:44:00] to, um, to, to 64 bit or something. And, and so, um, you have to use like an old machine to get it to work. [00:44:06] Christina: And, and, and the company, even though they were selling the machines until only a few years ago, uh, like refused to basically update anything. Um, and nobody’s making these types of, of scanners. Um, but if you’re doing the sort of precision work that this guy wants to do of like these full frame, like 35 millimeter scans for, from like certain full frame cameras, you need to use these super rare, hard to get and very, very expensive scanners. [00:44:30] Christina: And, and everybody in Hacker News, because it’s a, you know, hell hole of, of, well actually, you know, Asby and Jack asses. Um, like they were all like, well, why can’t you just use this Epson scanner? This is the, the same d p and whatnot. And the guy was like, no, it’s not. The detail that it collects is not the same. [00:44:48] Christina: And, and, and it was, it’s interesting that as much as technology has improved in some ways, the old kind of barrel drum ways that like a scanner worked like, you know, 50, 40 years ago is still [00:45:00] superior to what the, the current kind of method would be for, for capturing things, you know, like cheaper. It, it’s, it’s fascinating to think about that. [00:45:08] Christina: Like it made me think about the, the Xerox thing because I, I get why they do it the way they’re doing it and are doing like the manual, like the, you know, computer aided OCR stuff, but at the same time it’s like you’re not actually getting copies. You think you need, you’ve, you’ve introduced a problem with all this stuff that, that you didn’t have, you know, which is terrifying. [00:45:28] Jeff: Ah, [00:45:29] Brett: So speaking of advances in technology, um, I we’re, we should, if we were responsible podcasts or switch to gratitude at this point, but, uh, We, we, uh, do you, do you have some time? Because I feel like we have put off talking about, uh, ai, uh, for a couple weeks now, and, [00:45:53] Jeff: in fairness, assuming the AI would talk about itself. [00:45:56] Christina: is true. [00:45:57] Brett: Uh, but like last week chat, G [00:46:00] p t four was introduced, uh, Google finally came out with their Bard. [00:46:06] Brett: Uh, uh, Microsoft made their chat, g p t powered Bing Public. And, uh, and then just very, very recently, GitHub announced co-pilot X, um, which, uh, th there’s just so much happening so fast right now. I’m kind of, I’m kind of curious, especially, I feel like Christina’s gonna have a lot to say about this. Um, but, but Christina, where would you, where would you start this convers. [00:46:34] Christina: Well, I think that, so g p t four and, and then I guess also Google, you know, release or opening the wait list for Bard are, are kind of the two things. I think, um, co-pilot X is, is not a product, so to speak, as it is kinda like a vision of where we’re envisioning, like stuff like what the future of things can be. [00:46:52] Christina: So some of the stuff will probably make its way into, you know, uh, co-pilot, like, uh, the C l I and, and, uh, the ability to, to [00:47:00] chat with it both for voice and um, with, uh, with text and some other stuff. And some other things are, you know, kinda more experimental in nature. But, um, yeah, I mean, to your point, I think that it, it’s shocking to me like I’ve been, I’ve been kind of beating the drum, um, For the, the, the show, the developer or news show that I, I write and, and do every week since probably, I don’t know, June or July, I really made like the consci conscientious decision to be like, Hey, this, this l l m stuff is becoming really, really big. [00:47:32] Christina: And we’re starting to see a lot of really interesting things happening with generative AI beyond just, you know, uh, get up co-pilot and, and some of the other things we’d seen first starting with the art stuff and then now chat G P T and, and then now all these add-on things. Um, but to your point, like it, it’s crazy when you think that really how much stuff has December when chat g p T was released. [00:47:56] Christina: But also if you go back even further, like if you go back to when stable diffusion [00:48:00] when was announced, which is like August and where we are now, it feels like a lifetime ago in, in some respects. [00:48:07] Brett: have you seen Adobe Firefly? [00:48:09] Christina: Yeah, I saw that, that that was also announced this week. [00:48:11] Brett: It kind of fixes everything that was really wonky about like Dolly as far like to actually use it for creative purposes, for, to actually use it for like production purposes. Um, Firefly. Addresses so many of those, uh, AI image generation concerns. Yeah. Like this shit, like people, people may say right now, like, here’s what’s wrong with it, but I’m at the rate things are happening. [00:48:41] Brett: Everything you’re complaining about right now is gonna be fixed. Give it a year, a year max, four years. And everything you’re talking about being wrong right now is going to be fixed. Like this is, this is here to stay. This is the future. The internet, the, the world of computing [00:49:00] is changing underneath our feet. [00:49:02] Brett: Uh, people my age, uh, are going to have to make a decision to, uh, to, to get with it and to become, to become fluent in AI prompts or to try to eek out a living in what will soon be old school computing. [00:49:26] Christina: Yeah, I mean, I think that I, I definitely think that we’re all going to have to become better at like, prompt, um, you know, uh, generation and, [00:49:34] Brett: There’s like, there’s a whole market out there for like prompt generation courses. [00:49:39] Christina: Oh, there is, and, and that, and that’s sort of the interesting thing. But I think that to me, like what you mentioned about Firefly, like to me, this is where I think we’re actually going to see really innovative art is when actual artists are using this stuff in their process, right? Like, it’s one thing if you’re giving it a prompt and it makes something that looks okay and you can, with the perfect thing in the, the exact right [00:50:00] response and, and the right tweaking, you can get a really great looking thumbnail, right? [00:50:04] Christina: But then if you l if you zoom in and you go too close into it, then you’re like, eh, actually this looks a little bit jank. But, but it’s still really impressive. But when you then take something and go, okay, well I have these editing tools and I’m an artist and I’m able to tweak the model even more so to, to give it the right source of, of results that I want. [00:50:21] Christina: And then me as an artist, I could go in and alter, you know, and, and make cleanup and make changes. That’s where I think you are. I think that’s where we’re going to see really exciting stuff. [00:50:31] Brett: Firefly can do vector, which means it’s way easier to fix issues. Um, [00:50:38] Christina: That I didn’t know. I didn’t realize it was Vector. That’s amazing. [00:50:41] Brett: I took draw things that, like you, you mentioned, draw things as I think a, a gtu a while back, or you brought it up on the show. So I, I was checking out Draw Thingss and I was using the Mac version of it, and in just four prompts, I got a perfect, I [00:51:00] needed a blonde, like 20 something with a red hat screaming for various political purposes. [00:51:08] Brett: And I was able to get like a perf, like exactly what was in my head in four prompts. Like it took four permutations of the prompt and I got exactly the image, like an image that I, I had no royalties, no, uh, no ownership, and I could just use however I wanted to to talk shit about a, an AI generated human being, but, Yeah. [00:51:35] Brett: And, and, uh, the video there. So most of the AI video stuff, I believe, um, I don’t think there’s anything out there that for free will generate more than three seconds of video right now, because the potential for deep fakes is just so dangerous. Like, but I, I can make Obama for three [00:52:00] seconds. I can make Barack Obama say anything I want to, literally anything. [00:52:04] Brett: And, and it’s completely convincing. [00:52:07] Christina: The voice stuff is even scarier, uh, because the voice models have become really, really good. And, and it’s one of those things that I become a little bit worried. Like I’m not worried about anybody impersonating me for like ill will, right? Like, I don’t, that’s, that’s not so much my problem. My, my issue is more, I’m like, okay, my, there are are thousands of hours of my voice out there that someone could transfer into, and then if they got my parents’ phone number or whatnot like that, that’s a gr This is a great way of, of doing, you know, the email scam where you send, oh, I’m, I’m stuck in a foreign country, you know, wire me this money. [00:52:38] Christina: Okay, now you can do it using someone’s actual [00:52:41] Brett: which is way more convincing for sure. [00:52:44] Christina: more convincing, especially if you then spoof a phone number or something. You know, there’s a lot of stuff you can do. So, That’s, I do worry about that. Um, I, I worry about the deep fake stuff for sure, but I think that there are, I’m, I’m hoping that, [00:53:00] yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things I’m, I’m hesitant to call for more legislation and stuff, just because I think that the government does such a terrible job with tech in general, that even if I think that we need more legislation, I don’t have any faith that the, that congress has any understanding of what they’re talking about at all on any level. [00:53:16] Christina: Um, but this is one of those areas where we’re gonna have to figure out, uh, things about like deep fakes for things like, you know, pornography and for impersonations really fast because the, the tools are getting so good, like turnkey, you know, just like anybody with like, you know, using a web interface can do the voice stuff. [00:53:35] Brett: yeah, I made a pretty convincing minute long rant from Elon Musk talking about how he’d been a bot the whole time, and that his, his, uh, his vengeance towards bots on Twitter was actually a very self-defeating, um, tactic that he was using to convince people he wasn’t a bot. Like I wrote out a whole script. [00:53:57] Brett: I had it read in Elon Musk’s voice, and [00:54:00] honestly, it sounds like Elon Musk giving an interview, um, maybe a little more lucid than he usually seems in interviews. Uh, but yeah, like the technology is there now and, and, and it’s scary, but a also at the same time, holy shit, we can do anything [00:54:17] Christina: Yeah, it’s exciting too. [00:54:19] Brett: I think so like when, when the internet first dawned when, when computers first dawned, like there was less trepidation than there is now because we hadn’t seen, seen things go, we hadn’t seen things misused as much previously. [00:54:35] Brett: We didn’t know how bad things could get. Now we do, like we’ve seen where these technologies can go and like, um, everybody’s first reaction is fear when it comes to this, and rightly so. AI is scary shit. Um, like we have, we have decades of movies about how AI can destroy humanity. , but, but the potential is [00:55:00] also awesome. [00:55:01] Jeff: Christina, will you kind of tell us about, um, GitHub’s co-pilot? [00:55:09] Christina: Yeah, so the big thing is, is that so, so G p T four was announced last week, and it’s, it’s out now. Um, in terms of like the, uh, um, if you pay for chat, g p. You get access to it and the API is, there’s a wait list, but I think they’re adding people to it fairly quickly, and the model is significantly better. [00:55:26] Christina: In some ways, it is a little bit slower in some regards. So when it comes to the, the model that copilot uses, we haven’t moved everything over to, to G P T four yet because, uh, we need to make sure that the, the speed and, and that stuff will be there. But there are some things that we will be using G P T for, um, for, with co-pilot. [00:55:44] Christina: So co-pilot, uh, if you’re not familiar, is basically our pair programming assistant. That’s why it’s your co-pilot that gives you suggestions, um, and, and, you know, um, can, can generate code for you as, as, as you’re, uh, going along and, and it takes it both from. [00:56:00] Your style, but also the, the code that’s within the different projects that you’re working on. [00:56:05] Christina: So it’s, the more you use it, uh, the better it gets. And so like, if you have a bunch of different files open all in a project, it’s going to be able to, to use that data to kind of infer, you know, the style that it’s doing and, and what suggestions it’s giving you. Um, but one of the things that you can do with the, the, uh, one of the, the GitHub co-pilot X things is that although you’ve been able to ask questions in comments before, now they’ve actually kind of built in like a, a chatbot type of interface. [00:56:30] Christina: So it’s like you have a more chat G B T type of experience directly in your I D E, so you’re not having to move to another app. You can do it alongside that and then, you know, insert the code that way if that’s what you wanna do. Um, you can also explain code. We’ll even do things like in different languages. [00:56:45] Christina: You can say, okay, you know, you can write something in Spanish and we’ll give you, you know, the, the corresponding code. Um, that way. Um, we’re, we’re also working on something. Uh, I see a beautiful cat right now as I’m talking. I love him. Um, or her. Um, and, [00:57:00] uh, we’re, uh, we, we’d previously called this, hey GitHub, and now it’s gonna be, uh, come I think a co-pilot voiced, I think, Don’t quote me on that. [00:57:08] Christina: Basically where you can, uh, verbally talk to your IDE and generate things that way. But then some of the other exciting things are trying to bring this into other ways. So like, there’s co-pilot for docs, which so far we have working with M D M and Azure’s docs and like the React docs. And so this is a way where it’s basically, it’s been kind of trained on all of that documentation. [00:57:28] Christina: So you can use that to, to ask questions and search better, which I think is really exciting. And then what, what Bread is gonna be super stoked about, and me as well, I’ve been using it for a couple of days, it’s really cool is there’s a, a copilot c l i, so you can actually use it in your terminal to, you know, say, okay, build me, you know, watermark a video for me using F F M Peg, um, and it will do that for you. [00:57:54] Christina: Or write me a red X that does these things and it’ll do it for you. And also explain step by step what it’s [00:58:00] doing. Which is, is, I mean, like that’s, that’s gonna be really great for me. [00:58:06] Brett: I want to use it with ff, F F M, peg and panoc and just something, something that knows all of the, all of the flags and switches and can just tell you, here’s what you need. [00:58:18] Jeff: Yes. I take it. I’ll take it. I love it. [00:58:22] Brett: I wish. I wish. So. As, as listeners know, I have never made the switch to VS code. Um, I have been using VS code just because that’s the only place GitHub co-pilot will work. Um, sublime Text. Short. Short, [00:58:42] Christina: neo them and, and, and Neo. [00:58:45] Brett: I’m a sublime text guy and while there have been some chat V p t, um, extensions plugins released for sublime texts, they are far behind what VS Code can do.[00:59:00] [00:59:00] Brett: Um, so I will actually open up a project I’m working in, in sublime and we’ll open it in vs code just to like say, Hey, write me yard comments for this ruby function or, or fix, tell me how to debug this error I’m getting and it’ll, it’ll figure it out. Like it’s amazing for debugging if you have code that’s currently in an R A P L A rep. [00:59:27] Brett: If it’s currently returning an error, uh, co-pilot can debug that error and tell you how to fix it. It’s so fast. It’s nice. [00:59:36] Jeff: The thing I wonder is like using, uh, using AI for coding still requires, uh, an ability to do computational thinking. Right. Um, I wonder how far we are from where that is not gonna be necessary at all. [00:59:51] Christina: We’re, we’re getting closer than, than you would think. Like one of the things they showed off at, in the open AI did a live, a developer live stream for G P T four. And [01:00:00] one of the things they did was that, um, uh, uh, g d b, he took a photo, like he basically drew out like, uh, what a website would look like. He wanted to create like a joke generator. [01:00:09] Christina: He took a photo of it, he uploaded it, um, and then used his discord bot to kind of ingest that into, to G P T four. And then it made that into code [01:00:19] Jeff: Wow. [01:00:20] Christina: and, and, and also did the job search from the functional stuff. So, [01:00:23] Jeff: geeky. [01:00:24] Brett: For at least a decade now, we’ve been promised technologies that would allow non coders to code. Um, I mean, even SQL L was originally developed for non coders to be able to work with databases. And I’ll be honest, uh, SQL takes some knowledge. [01:00:43] Christina: it [01:00:43] Jeff: Oh my God. When you get, when you get beyond, like, show me you know this from this column, [01:00:49] Brett: tables. Um, [01:00:51] Christina: Yeah. Little bobby tables. [01:00:52] Brett: but we have been promised this for, for over a decade. Uh, this no code kind of approach, and I feel like [01:01:00] this is finally the technology that is going to make it possible for someone to envision a problem. And habit solved for them, um, to be able, you know, obviously you want them to have some power, some, some agency in the process. [01:01:19] Brett: But yeah, we’re, we’re, we are definitely on the horizon seeing an era where, uh, a six-year-old kid can say, this is what I want to do, this is what I want my program to do. And, and, and have the program that does Exactly. If they know the right question to ask, it’ll do it. [01:01:38] Christina: Yeah, we’re, we’re getting close. And I mean, the thing is, is that even, I mean, cuz there have been some really decent like, uh, low-code, no-code solutions. There’s a, there’s a company I like a lot called re. But even that one, you really need to understand like databases a little bit. You need to kind of have an understanding of, of what you’re wanting to do. [01:01:56] Christina: It’s, it’s not really as drag and drop, like, uh, there’s, oh, this is what I wanted to mention. [01:02:00] There was a great article, uh, speaking of retool on their website last week. Um, they published, um, um, uh, history of Visual Basic, and it was just this beautiful, beautiful website, uh, this beautiful blog entry, the A, that was just like a fantastic thing to look at. [01:02:16] Christina: And B, like, um, like every detail of the bitmap fonts, The design is also like this ex exhaust of like 5,000 plus word, like kind of oral history of, of Visual Basic. And um, I feel like, you know, we never really replaced Visual Basic and, and HyperCard in the web era. Like, for whatever reason we just didn’t do it. [01:02:36] Christina: And, you know, maybe Flash was maybe the closest thing we came to that, but, but then that really didn’t go far enough and so we’ve lost that. And now I almost feel like we might finally get back to that. But with this addition of, you know, making it even easier in some regards, you know, for people to get like, you know, MVPs and proof of concepts running. [01:02:57] Christina: Cuz I, I don’t think anybody would argue that like, the, the code you’re [01:03:00] going to do is gonna be like the, the greatest code or like the cleanest or anything, but it’s gonna get you out closer to an idea to go from there. S same, same as the art, right? It’s not, not like the art that, that these prompts generate are the works of art, but it’s giving you a, a starting place where then you can alter that and make and build off of that. [01:03:19] Brett: in my experience thus far, um, I have taken stuff that I’ve written that I am perfectly confident in, and I have asked G P T to rewrite. Just, just to see what it would spit out if I said, rewrite this function. And it has provided, uh, code that was more in line with, uh, like modern coding practices, uh, that was more efficient, that was shorter, uh, that was more readable. [01:03:50] Brett: Like it, it is always found a way. And then, and it always gives me like a bullet list of why it did what it did. Um, and yeah, like I, [01:04:00] like at first I was like, yeah, you can use it to write code, but you’re gonna want to check everything it does. It’s already like in, in a month. It’s already getting better to the, to the point where I actually trust it to rewrite functions for me. [01:04:15] Brett: And there have been times that I’ve had it rewrite a function and that I’ve run, you know, spec tests on it. And it has failed, uh, for, for various reasons that have required some knowledge to figure out what went wrong. Uh, but for the most part, uh, like as far as adhering to modern coding practices, adhering to, uh, like you were saying, like it, it can understand a coding style and match it. [01:04:44] Brett: Um, that it’s, it’s spectacular in that regard. [01:04:49] Christina: Yeah, it will do the false hallucination thing. We’ll just kind of maybe create APIs that don’t exist, or it will create, you know, kind of endpoints to different things that that’s not really there. Right. It will, it will go that far and it will kind of trick [01:05:00] you or it will give you an explanation for something that will sound really great and be like, no, that’s not actually true. [01:05:04] Christina: But, you know, these things are imperfect. Uh, but when they work and they work well, I would say like 90% of the time in a lot of these cases, it feels freaking magical in a way that, I don’t know, I’m excited by it. I know a lot of people are, are freaked out from the, you know, the, uh, ethical implications. [01:05:22] Christina: And I’m not discounting any of that, but, but I just, I think about like all the cool shit that’s gonna get created because of stuff like this. [01:05:29] Brett: Did I tell you guys about the support requests I got from Merck because someone had asked chat, G P T how to do something. [01:05:39] Christina: No. [01:05:40] Brett: Someone, someone was looking for a way to split a markdown document based on its headers into multiple files, which is a thing. Sure, I have written scripts that do this. Uh, but chat, G b t three told them that marked my application could do [01:06:00] this, and then proceeded to give them the exact menu options to use to accomplish this task. [01:06:07] Brett: None of which actually exists in the application, but it, it had given them very detailed, very realistic sounding instructions for how to accomplish this with Mark. And they wrote me and they’re like, so can it actually do this? And I was like, no, this is obviously an AI fever dream, uh, for a feature that I never, I never had tort, but it was, it was ridiculously detailed. [01:06:32] Jeff: Until you check the next day and the feature has been added. it’s total son of Anton situation. Yeah, [01:06:41] Brett: Yes. Oh, man. All right. Should we, uh, this will, this will come up again. We are not done with ai, but should [01:06:49] Jeff: AI is not done with us. [01:06:51] Christina: No, it’s not. [01:06:52] Brett: should we do some gratitude? [01:06:53] Christina: Let’s do some gratitude. [01:06:55] Jeff: I can go first. So I, there’s this app that you, one of you [01:07:00] mentioned last week in talking about another app, and I had actually never heard of it. And it’s Mac updater somehow. I’ve never heard of it though. It’s clearly just, I mean by the design has clearly been around a long time. [01:07:13] Jeff: Um, is that true? [01:07:15] Christina: Um, it’s been around, that’s like four years. [01:07:18] Jeff: Okay. Not that [01:07:19] Christina: No. And, and version three just came out. [01:07:21] Jeff: So, um, it, it’s, it’s wonderful For anybody that doesn’t know it, it’s just, it, it, it gives you an, a really nice interface for seeing which of your apps, uh, have updates available. It’s also a really nice way to read the, um, notes on those, uh, on those updates. Really awesome for me. I, I, I always miss those. [01:07:41] Jeff: Otherwise, and this actually, I’ve noticed I end up going into the, um, developer’s notes before I update because it’s just so easy to do. Um, and they also have like a discover function, which I have not used that much, but it just, [01:07:59] Brett: it’s [01:08:00] interesting. You can see what, if you wanna find out what apps are currently under frequent and development, the Discover tab is great. [01:08:07] Jeff: yeah. And what’s free and what costs money and what, what’s popular and what’s not, and what’s a minor, um, update and what’s a major update or what is their minor or it’s, what does that mean actually [01:08:18] Brett: semantic versioning, like a, a major update is, so you have, uh, 1.0 0.0, right? Uh, the one is major updates, the Z, the first zero is minor updates, and the third zero is patch updates. So if something says major update, it’s going from like 1.0 to 2.0. But if it’s a minor update, it’s going from 1.1 to 1.2, and then a patch update would be like 1.2, 0.1 to 1.2 0.2. [01:08:46] Jeff: Okay. Got it. The other thing that I noticed when I was going to buy it is that they have this really awesome policy where if you’re a student or a resident of the 40 least wealthy nations, [01:09:00] you get a significant discount. And I was just like, what a, that’s like a cool little thing to add. [01:09:05] Jeff: Like I, I’ve never seen that before, um, ever. And so anyway, it’s a, just a lovely, simple but complex, uh, app that is elegant and serving me well. So thanks for mentioning it last week. Um, yeah. [01:09:21] Brett: full disclosure, and Jeff had no idea, but they have sponsored brett Terpstra dot com and they will be sponsoring again in April. Um, I am a huge fan. Like I only take sponsorships from things that I use and love and, uh, and their version 3.0. [01:09:39] Christina: It’s great. [01:09:40] Brett: Add things like, uh, completely interaction free pkg like package installation. [01:09:48] Brett: So right now in version 2.0, if you upgrade an app that requires a package install Microsoft Teams for exa, for example, um, you have to, it’ll, [01:10:00] it’ll say, could not con con complete the upgrade. Uh, you have to interact and it would pop up the package install and you would, you know, tab through, enter your password and everything, and then it would finish and then it would recognize that the updated happened. [01:10:15] Brett: Version three, uh, does a much better job of making pkg installation. Interaction free, like it can just complete them for you, which is, it’s kind of a big deal because I use a Mac updater every day and like I, I have enough apps that I get an update screen every day and anything it can update automatically. [01:10:39] Brett: I select quick update apps, hit the button, it’s done. Um, but there’s always one app that needs interaction that I would love to just seamlessly have happen. So I’m excited to start using 3.0 [01:10:54] Jeff: Awesome. [01:10:55] Christina: Yeah. And, and they’ve never sponsored me unfortunately, but I’ve been a fan of theirs for a [01:11:00] long time. And I will say, uh, that, uh, the, the c l I tool, which is part of like the, the, um, pro and like the business, um, license or whatever, you can get like a, a command line, um, utility that, that’s included in the bundle. [01:11:12] Christina: That was because I requested, uh, that and, uh, [01:11:17] Jeff: Yes. [01:11:18] Brett: a Christina feature. Nice. [01:11:19] Christina: was a Christina feature. And, and I was like, this is great because in my mind, cuz one of the things I like about. Is that it can pull things from home. Brew can pull things from a lot of different sources. And so if I can use it from the cli I’m like, oh, okay, well this is actually great while I’m doing my brew updates and whatnot, I can just, you know, query Mac updater. [01:11:37] Christina: Um, instead of having to maybe, you know, go through the, the UI sometimes just easier or if you wanna build a script to do something automated. I just, I was just like, why not? Uh, big fan, big fan of that. So, uh, [01:11:49] Jeff: Awesome. [01:11:50] Christina: uh, plus one on that. [01:11:52] Jeff: Yeah. Love it. [01:11:53] Brett: All right. Christina, do you know what you’re picking this [01:11:56] Christina: I do, I do, I’ve got a couple things actually. So, [01:12:00] um, while we’re talking about ai, one of the things, you know, that, that, uh, one of the cooler models that Open AI released, and they released this, um, like six weeks I think maybe before, uh, chat G B T. And so it didn’t get as much attention but it as Whisper, which is their, their speech to text model. [01:12:16] Christina: And they can basically take and translate, uh, a speech into text and it’s actually. [01:12:22] Brett: this on our podcast. It’s really good. [01:12:25] Christina: It’s incredibly good. And what’s amazing about it is that like it’s, I mean, I’m, I’m gonna be honest with you, I’ve paid for, The, you know, human translation services that you pay, like whatever the, the dollar a minute things, um, for, uh, or, or $10 a minute, whatever, whatever the, the fee is for stuff. [01:12:44] Christina: I’ve done that stuff for years. Then audit audited those things and the s r t files and the, the stuff that whispered gives you is incredibly good. You might have to make a couple of corrections and it has a hard time with some punctuation, but by and large, it [01:13:00] is better than anything I’ve ever seen from kind of like AI generated things. [01:13:04] Christina: Uh, and because it’s O whisper is actually open source, you can actually locally host it and run it on your own machine. So you could have like a, a, a web hosted version obviously, but you could have like the, you know, assuming you have enough RAM and enough resources, you can run these things on your own machine. [01:13:19] Christina: The problem is, is that actually, you know, if you don’t wanna have Python set up and, and run through, , um, all of that, uh, uh, stuff, it can be a little bit complicated. And I was working, um, on potentially like an open source project to try to make like a kind of an electron wrapper or something with that. [01:13:35] Christina: Um, but that, that project has, um, uh, unfortunately kind of, uh, been sidetracked for a little bit. But there are a couple of alternatives, um, that don’t do everything that we were wanting to do with, with a stage whisper, but are getting close. And so the first one I’m gonna mention is called ico, A I K O, and it’s from, uh, Cindra, uh, Sohu, who we’ve talked about his stuff before. [01:13:59] Christina: He makes, uh, [01:14:00] you know, he open sources and, uh, basically everything he does and, and makes his living that way has a bunch of great apps. Um, like, uh, he did, he has the, the interface for, uh, for Jif Ski, the, the, the gooey for that. And, uh, and, and Lango, which is like, you know, um, kind of like amphetamine. And, um, he, you know, has, um, a bunch of other stuff on his GitHub repo and in the Mac App store. [01:14:24] Christina: And ICO is AI powered audio transcription. It’s free, it’s in the Mac app. It’ll work on Intel and on Apple Silicone Max. These models do tend to run better on Apple Silicone Max, unless you have a beefy G P U. Um, and uh, he does also have a non app store, uh, version available if for some reason you can’t access it, but that’s not gonna get updated. [01:14:44] Christina: This will run on iOS and it’ll run on, um, on Mac os. And this is just an easy way to do high quality on device transcription it, and it includes shortcut support. Um, this is really great I think for, for most people’s stuff, but if you need more features, [01:15:00] so it uses the, the whisper, large V2 model, um, um, in, uh, in the medium or small model on iOS, depending on what memory you have available. [01:15:09] Christina: Um, and so, um, this is a really great, you know, if you’re Mac user, a really, really great way to, um, uh, get transcripts for your podcast or your YouTube files or whatever the case may be. So I’m gonna give that a shout out. But then there’s another app called. Mac Whisper is unfortunately not open sourced, but there is a free version. [01:15:29] Christina: And then there is a pro version, which I actually paid for, uh, to, to kind of play with. The free version will do a lot of things. This will actually transcribe between a bunch of different languages. So if you’re wanting to, uh, upload something in one language, it’ll transcribe to others. Um, the free version, um, uh, has, uh, some limited, um, model size. [01:15:49] Christina: Um, but if you want it to have faster and, uh, more accurate model sizes, you can get Mac Whisper Pro. What I really like about Mac [01:16:00] Whisper, the free version even does this, is that it will export what it does for you in s r t or v t t subtitle, export, or a CSV export. So the fact that I can get an s r t file from this and then I can upload that to YouTube is fucking great because that saves me a lot of time and also, Potentially it’s gonna save us like money from, um, you know, the, the service that we’ve been using to have some of my videos transcribed. [01:16:24] Christina: It’s really, really good. Um, you can take things even directly from like the voice memos app, uh, which is great. And then you can, you know, it’ll also support things from like MP3 or Wave or, you know, M four A or whatever. You can just give it a, a, a YouTube, um, link even. Um, and, and it’ll automatically, um, like you can just enter in the url, uh, from your YouTube video and it’ll automatically start to, to do the transcription. [01:16:48] Christina: You can also open files or even like create a new recording. You can choose what, what size model. You’re wanting to use. Um, so, uh, both of those, the, the free version of Mac Whisper is really good. The, the pro [01:17:00] version is like 16 pounds, so it’s like 17 US dollars. Um, I, I feel like supporting the dev. Um, so I’ll have both of those linked. [01:17:07] Christina: But if you’re looking at a way to try to do transcription and you wanna do it locally on your device, because maybe something like, you know, descript, which is great, but like, that either isn’t in your budget or you don’t, um, like Jeff, I think this would be great for you for journalism stuff. Like, you don’t necessarily want stuff on someone else’s server. [01:17:24] Christina: Um, this, this, this. Right. Um, especially when you’re doing some of the stories you’re working on, like you just don’t want it there. Like, that’s like just it, it could be a legal issue, could be a lot of things. Um, I, I think that, uh, both of these are, are really good options. So ICO and Mac. [01:17:41] Jeff: Awesome. [01:17:41] Brett: Nice. And on the, on the ai uh, vein, um, my pick this week is pd, uh, P E T E Y, which is, um, an Apple watch only app. Uh, there’s not even an iOS counterpart for it, but it is [01:18:00] just an interface to Mac G P T. Um, i, I assume three, but maybe eventually chat G p t four. But, uh, basically like it gives me a little complication on my watch that I can hit. [01:18:15] Brett: And ask it any question and get way better respon like for, you know, how you asked sir question. She says, here’s what I found on the web. And [01:18:25] Jeff: Yes. Yes. [01:18:26] Brett: she says, here’s what I found on the web. And, and even, even Google, uh, if you, if you have a, a Google Home, whatever, um, it will often just read you a webpage. [01:18:37] Brett: And p PD will actually give you usually a correct and detailed answer to just about any question you could possibly ask it. So when you’re in the car, when you’re in the car with your significant other, and one person says something you don’t agree with, and you say, I don’t think that’s true. And they say, oh yeah, look it up.[01:19:00] [01:19:00] Brett: This is what you turn to, this is, this is how you look it up. And then you say, see, PD says so, [01:19:06] Christina: That’s [01:19:07] Jeff: and pretty soon you are dating a [01:19:09] Brett: or in most cases, well, okay, PD says you’re right. [01:19:13] Christina: No, what I was gonna say is great timing on this because literally, um, uh, yesterday they, um, release an update that adds, uh, G P T four support, um, as an internet purchase. So it, it’s $5 and then there’s a $3 thing if you wanna get G P T four support. So, which I, I think is very, which I think is very reasonable, especially when you consider like you’re not having to bother with putting in your own, you know, op open AI keys, you know, API keys and whatnot. [01:19:38] Christina: Um, yeah. This is pretty cool. [01:19:39] Brett: Yep. All right. That was a good round. Thanks people. [01:19:44] Jeff: Good round. Good round. [01:19:46] Brett: Um, so, uh, I guess I feel like we’re at a logical conclusion here. [01:19:53] Jeff: Yeah. It’s literally where we end every week. [01:19:57] Brett: Literally where we end. [01:19:59] Jeff: [01:20:00] Yeah. [01:20:00] Brett: Get some sleep, guys. [01:20:01] Jeff: I guess I sleep. [01:20:03] Christina: get some sleep.

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Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Chicago Dibs! [00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired. [00:00:04] Christina: Hello, you are listening to Overtired, a podcast with, uh, me. I’m Christina Warren, and I’m joined by my great friends, Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severns Guntzel, and, um, I’m back. I, I was, I was in Los Angeles and then Sandy, Utah. So, um, I’m, I’m back and I’m glad to be [00:00:25] Jeffrey: Sandy, Utah. [00:00:30] Christina: It [00:00:31] Brett: Who doesn’t love you? [00:00:33] Christina: I mean, look, it is beautiful. Like even the airport, which is, you know, uh, recently been, been like, basically they raised it and, and, um, it looks great. Like you see the mountains and it’s a beautiful place. But the problem with going to a conference in Sandy is there’s like nothing out there. [00:00:48] Christina: It’s, it’s just like Baron like, [00:00:51] Brett: that actually the name of a city? I just thought you meant Sandy, like Utah [00:00:55] Christina: no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry, sorry. No, no. To be clear, that, [00:01:00] that that was not an adjective, that was actually the name of, of, of the, of the town I was in. Yeah. [00:01:07] Brett: Sandy, Utah. [00:01:08] Jeffrey: San [00:01:09] Brett: What’s the big mountain bike destination in Utah? There’s like a national [00:01:14] Jeffrey: not Moab, moabs, where the, that’s where the Jeeps [00:01:17] Brett: climbing. Climbing. It’s the climbing, the big climbing and, and mountain biking. Destina, Moab. Yeah. I have friends who used to make, uh, regular pilgrimages to Moab. I think that’s where the big swing is that you can like swing across like the desert [00:01:34] Brett: It’s [00:01:34] Brett: huge. It’s [00:01:35] Christina: I mean that Okay. That [00:01:36] Brett: 80 feet. [00:01:37] Christina: I mean, that, that does actually sound fun. Um, I mean, look, it’s beautiful. Uh, and, and if I’d been there for like, to go skiing or something, then that, that might maybe would’ve been different. I was there for Dev Day Salt Lake City, uh, which again took place in Sandy. Um, and, uh, I think is because it was close to where some businesses were. [00:01:55] Christina: But, um, my only other experience with Utah has been in Park [00:02:00] City, uh, for Sundance. And so this was not Sundance, let’s just say that. [00:02:05] Brett: Sure. Yeah. When I was a Mormon. kidding. [00:02:11] Jeffrey: It sounds like the, the spoken beginning of a song when I was a Mormon [00:02:19] Old People are Touring! [00:02:19] Brett: previous Swiss career as an architect, um, man ministry is touring again to Duran. Duran is touring again. Uh, the Cure is touring again. Skinny Puppy is touring again. Like all [00:02:33] Brett: the [00:02:34] Christina: Taylor Swift is touring. [00:02:36] Jeffrey: Taylor Swift is touring [00:02:38] Brett: Like Taylor Swift is at least more recent, like skinny puppy touring. That’s kinda like, whoa. [00:02:44] Brett: Like that is. That is so, like my childhood is, is back. Like I could get tickets for basically the entire lineup of like 1995 alternative music right now. [00:02:59] Jeffrey: know what’s [00:03:00] still one of the most bizarre collaborations of all time is, uh, Al Jorgenson from Ministry, who is a, he looks so awful right [00:03:08] Brett: Yeah. [00:03:08] Brett: He, [00:03:09] Jeffrey: and, is a notorious sort of like junky, like forever guy, uh, and an asshole. And he had a side project for one album with Ian Mackay from Fugazi, the [00:03:20] Brett: what was that? Which one was that? [00:03:21] Jeffrey: uh, I can’t remember the name, but they did it [00:03:26] Brett: he had so many side projects. Pig face being the most notable one, but I, yeah, I would, I would love to hear what he did with Ian McKay. That would be [00:03:34] Jeffrey: It’s not that good. It’s not that good. I saw ministry in 1992. It was awesome, but [00:03:42] Brett: Uh, the Mind is a terrible thing to taste that. [00:03:46] Jeffrey: Uh, no, it was the, um, the one after that, uh, the, the, what is it? Jesus Hot [00:03:52] Brett: Jesus built my heart Rod. [00:03:54] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I remember when I, it was Lollapalooza, the second Lollapalooza, and it was [00:04:00] ministry and all their like, you know, like blinding flashing lights and dark colors kind of vibe. And then Eddie Vetter in a, I think a sheep’s head, a sheep’s head mask holding, uh, like a long stick with another, some kind of head on it. [00:04:17] Jeffrey: It’s very strange. [00:04:18] Brett: I went to, uh, I went, this is, this is very rapidly turned into a, a very organic conversation, but I went to, uh, an art opening at, it’s, it’s a local bar called Ed’s No Name Bar, which is no longer even owned by ed’s, but it’s just, he never felt like naming it. So it literally became no name. Like if you look it up on, on Google, it’ll be the no name [00:04:45] Jeffrey: Yeah, but putting Eds in there [00:04:47] Brett: Right. Kind of. Yeah. Kind of. Right. Um, but it became this real like arts hotspot. Like they always have like, uh, some local artists, like all around the second room [00:05:00] and it’s, it’s the crunchy hangout. It’s where all the granola people go to drink and, uh, they have live music, like seems like four, four nights a week. [00:05:10] Brett: They have live music, um, on a shitty little stage with horrible acoustics. But, um, but I went to an art opening there that was a women and non-binary art show, and it was like ages maybe 15 to 70, like just artists from all walks of life. And there was this weird theme of goat horns. Most of the subjects of the paintings were female, but they had goat horns, which is obviously like a masculine, as far as biology goes. [00:05:47] Brett: It’s a masculine thing, but it also has like pagan origins. So we had these long conversations about what does it mean that all of these separate artists were drawn toward the idea of goat horns in [00:06:00] their, [00:06:00] Brett: in [00:06:00] Jeffrey: wasn’t the official theme. It [00:06:01] Brett: No, it just happened. [00:06:03] Brett: It was just [00:06:03] Jeffrey: like some sort of satanist problem in Winona? [00:06:06] Brett: Yeah. Satanic panic all over again. [00:06:08] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm. sounds like it. Sounds like it. Yeah. Well, it’s all the people can tour and I’m still never gonna go to shows. Um, [00:06:18] Brett: Right. [00:06:19] Jeffrey: unfortunately. [00:06:20] Christina: Yeah, I was, I’m trying to, they, they don’t have the, the, the tickets out yet. They’re just like, oh, like, notify me when they’re, when, when we know where we’re going. But, uh, dashboard confessional one of my favorite bands. I mean, it’s really one guy, the band is, is incidental and Counting Crows, genuinely. One of my favorite bands [00:06:38] Jeffrey: Oh yeah, [00:06:38] Brett: Excellent. Excellent. [00:06:39] Christina: touring together. [00:06:40] Christina: And, uh, and so, and, and they’re like two different generations. So that, that’ll be interesting. Um, but, but I’m a massive, massive, massive county Crows fan [00:06:49] Brett: it’s, it’s kind of like you, uh, when you look at like, uh, differences in dating ages when you’re 20, dating a 15 year old is out of the question. [00:07:00] Uh, but when you are 70 dating a 65 year old, it doesn’t matter anymore. And I feel like dashboard confessional and counting crows have reached an age [00:07:09] Christina: Oh, 100%. [00:07:11] Brett: where they can kind of be considered generational at this point. [00:07:15] Christina: No, no, I, I totally agree. Not only that though, but like, um, musically, like they’re both kind of like, you know, like songwriter, so songwriter driven, you know, like, like, you know, um, an anthem, you know, like, okay, dashboard confessional, arguably kind of like popularized emo, but like Counting Crows like, was like some like sad white man rock, a little bit Whale Rock, you know, in, in, in, in the, you know, August and everything after and whatnot, which I think is like a perfect album. [00:07:41] Christina: Uh, no notes on that. Like, that’s just a fucking great album. Um, actually like that, like, uh, recovering the satellites and, um, what’s the, uh, the, the next one, the one, the one with, um, uh, colorblind and Mrs. Potters lullaby. And anyway, those three, al those three albums are like, [00:08:00] awesome. Um, and they’re really, really good live. [00:08:03] Christina: So, [00:08:04] Jeffrey: I was, I was not a fan of either of those bands, but my friends who were fans, especially of Counting Crows, have seen them recently and said it was just fantastic. [00:08:11] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, he, he is like, I remember, and this was like 10 years ago, he somehow was like on the cover of like a a r P magazine, and I was like, [00:08:22] Jeffrey: Great fucking publicist, [00:08:24] Christina: Totally. [00:08:26] Jeffrey: I the good news. I got you a cover [00:08:28] Brett: It’s kind of like counting Crows is kind of like Dave Grohl for me and like the Foo Fighters. Like, I don’t, I don’t care about the music. Uh, but every time I read a really in-depth music review, um, like Dave Grohl grew on me just because of his, like, just being a fucking awesome guy, right? Uh, count Crows grew on me because I would read, uh, music reviews from people that I respected that just talked about how the depth of like the counting [00:09:00] Crows musical discography and, and, and how great the songwriting was. [00:09:06] Brett: And I’ve heard some songs and I’ve thought, yeah, it’s okay. It’s okay. But, but I have a lot of respect for the Counting Crows just because they, they have impressed people that impressed me. [00:09:19] Jeffrey: um, just, uh, my, my game today is gonna be bring everything back to Pearl Jam. Um, I remember I was at, I was at Jazz Fest in 1994 in New Orleans, and I was walking past a club where a really big show was happening and he, the singer of Counting Crows was standing in line with, um, Pearl Jam Sweat shorts. [00:09:37] Christina: Nice. [00:09:39] Jeffrey: I was like, oh, awesome. [00:09:40] Jeffrey: Cool. By the way, pale Head, did you say Pale Head, but that’s what it was. Yeah. [00:09:45] Brett: pig face, but pale head, I [00:09:46] Jeffrey: Pale Head was Ian mackay Jorgenson. Sorry about that. [00:09:49] Brett: And with the, with the guitarist pale head. [00:09:52] Jeffrey: Yeah. No, that’s Buckethead. You’re thinking of [00:09:53] Brett: Oh, I’m Buckethead, [00:09:54] Jeffrey: I don’t think Buckethead anything to do with that. Buckethead is a whole nother story. [00:10:00] We’re talking about a man who joined Guns N Roses and still did his special thing of a guitar solo that involved beatboxing, really good robot dancing, incredible nunchuck work, and then back to guitar, but, and all with a bucket on his head. [00:10:19] Jeffrey: Right. And a, and a mask. Like I could talk about buckethead all fucking day. Um, cuz Wow. But this is pale head anyway. Sorry, [00:10:28] Brett: pale head. I think I always conflated the two pale pales and buckets. [00:10:34] Jeffrey: Yeah. Who can blame you? Who can blame? [00:10:36] Christina: I have no idea what any of this is. [00:10:38] Jeffrey: God. Buckethead. I’ll send y’all a link and I’ll put it in the show notes, but it’s something to see. I’m telling you. This is a man who is a wizard guitar player. A Wizard Nunchuck Wheeler. A Wizard Beatboxer who only appears in public in a long white trench coat, a K F C bucket on his head, and a white mask, uh, just like a face mask with no [00:11:00] facial features on it. [00:11:01] Jeffrey: Nobody’s ever, for the most part, [00:11:03] Christina: so, he’s, so he’s cia basically [00:11:05] Jeffrey: Yeah, he’s CIA basically. And for, until very recently, he was the guitarist of Guns N Roses. So next to all of that, was fucking Axl Rose. Like, it’s just like the most bizarre. It’s like I had this dream. It was a fucked up dream. This guy had a bucket and Axl was there. [00:11:19] Christina: and that, that, no, that was real life. Also, a also Guns N Roses are torian again. [00:11:22] Jeffrey: yes, they are. [00:11:24] Brett: Are they really? [00:11:25] Brett: Full original lineup. [00:11:27] Jeffrey: reg. Mostly not [00:11:29] Christina: I think not [00:11:30] Jeffrey: I don’t think Izzy Stradling, well, I noticed Matt Swarms, not the drummer, the second drummer who I never liked, but [00:11:36] Brett: Dizzy. Dizzy. [00:11:37] Jeffrey: Izzy straddling Duff. [00:11:39] Brett: bass. Yeah. [00:11:41] Jeffrey: Yeah. And some guy Gibby or Gabby, I don’t [00:11:43] Brett: Izzy. And Dizzy. And [00:11:44] Jeffrey: Yeah. Truly. It’s just like a comic book anyway. [00:11:49] Brett: Are they any good? I did not like Chinese Democracy. [00:11:53] Christina: Well, nothing could be good after like that much buildup, but like [00:11:57] Brett: After 10 [00:11:58] Jeffrey: And that [00:12:00] voice, that voice was not, that voice was not made to age. Did you see him at Lisa Marie Presley’s funeral? [00:12:06] Christina: Yeah. [00:12:07] Jeffrey: He played like, I think November rain on the [00:12:09] Christina: played November rain on piano. [00:12:11] Jeffrey: awful. It was like, at least Elvis at the end was still though he looked terrible, had the voice of a fucking angel. And, and to, to somehow put that man in front of Graceland. Wow. And he’s clearly gotten to the point where he’s not self-assessing, you know, he’s like, I’m a fucking rockstar. What? [00:12:32] Brett: If he ever did, yeah. [00:12:34] Christina: I, he’s like, I’m gonna do November rain. [00:12:36] Jeffrey: Yeah. Alone. [00:12:38] Christina: It’s like o o, okay. Like, that’s a really anthemic, like, beautiful song, but [00:12:42] Jeffrey: Yes, it is. [00:12:43] Christina: can, can you do it still? Like, [00:12:45] Jeffrey: And he sounds like, you know, when you, when you step on a dog toy and then you let your f you let your foot up and it kind of inhales. That’s what his voice sounds like right now. [00:12:53] Christina: Ugh. [00:12:54] Brett: Ste. Stephanie Seymour has aged way better than Axl. [00:12:57] Christina: Well, yeah, totally. [00:12:58] Jeffrey: a strange. [00:12:59] Christina: [00:13:00] great music video. [00:13:01] Brett: It was. [00:13:01] Jeffrey: man. You kidding me. Loved it. Loved it. [00:13:04] Brett: And that guitar [00:13:05] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:13:06] Brett: November Rain? [00:13:06] Christina: Yep. Which goes on and on, and that was such a long music video, but it was so good. Like M T V would aired, edited versions sometimes, but [00:13:13] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s right. [00:13:14] Christina: when you could, when you could watch the whole thing, when they would put that on, like after 10:00 PM or whatever, you could watch the whole thing. [00:13:20] Brett: Like the, the usual Illusion two version. Weren’t there two versions of November Rain between the user illusions, [00:13:28] Jeffrey: Oh, I don’t think so. [00:13:29] Brett: which, there was one song, there was a song [00:13:32] Jeffrey: There was Civil War. There was Civil War That was really long on one [00:13:35] Brett: on. No, but there was one that was on both albums with slightly different lyrics. [00:13:41] Jeffrey: Hmm. I believe you and I, I’m kind of sad that I can’t participate even though I listen to [00:13:47] Christina: Yeah. I was gonna say, I have no idea, because I really only knew. The stuff that was on M T V and I was really [00:13:52] Brett: Okay. [00:13:53] Christina: when you know, they were like at their peak [00:13:56] Jeffrey: It’s that the thing, the thing , there’s a, a real [00:14:00] demarcation with that band and it’s when Axl started wearing like incredibly tight spandex, short shorts, it’s like, that’s when you, that’s when everything just got a little out of control. But anyway, [00:14:13] Brett: Um, I’m, I’m looking this up. Disc one, oh, it was don’t cry, I think [00:14:20] Jeffrey: Don’t you cry? [00:14:22] Brett: No, wait. Oh, there, wait. The, the, the deluxe release had four discs. [00:14:30] Jeffrey: That’s but that’s recent. That’s recent though. [00:14:33] Christina: Yeah. The only band that was doing multiple disks in [00:14:36] Brett: Yeah. No, it was, it was, it was, don’t cry on, on unusual illusion. Two, there was an alternate lyrics. [00:14:42] Jeffrey: Okay. Okay. [00:14:44] Christina: smashing pumpkins is also torn. Again, I will not see them. Because it’s not smashing Pumpkins, it’s Billy Corgan and whatever random people have agreed to continue to tour with him. [00:14:54] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:14:55] Brett: see a good mashup of Smashing Pumpkins. Unplugged [00:15:00] with Dua Lipa. [00:15:01] Christina: Oh, that I bet would be amazing. [00:15:04] Brett: I’ll see if I can find that for the show notes. [00:15:06] Christina: they did unplugged and they did unplug more than 20 years ago, cuz like he basically retired or said he was gonna retire in, in the band in, in 2000 or whatever. Um, cuz I went to one of the final shows and I remember he did like a VH1 storytellers. Um, that was really good. [00:15:26] Christina: And, and, and that might be, I think that, I think it was that instead, but they might have had an unplugged, but it might have been the VH1 storytellers that, that they used for the mashup. [00:15:33] Brett: the, the thing about Smashing Pumpkins is their songwriting in general. Par for the course at the time, but his recording methods like layering 15, 20, 30 guitar tracks on top of each other in creating like, like the, the Ramones, the, the rock and roll ar, the, uh, rock and Roll radio [00:16:00] era, like Wall of Sound. [00:16:01] Brett: I can’t remember the producer’s name behind that, [00:16:04] Jeffrey: Phil, uh, Phil [00:16:05] Christina: full [00:16:05] Brett: yeah. Yeah. So like this idea of the wall of sound. Sure, sure. . Yes. Um, but like, it came to this head kind of with Smashing Pumpkins, where they created this wall of guitar, like Billy Corrigan created this wall of guitar that you couldn’t even pick out. [00:16:24] Brett: A guitar sound from, cuz it was so many layered tracks and that like listening to Siamese dreamed the album, like the recorded album is a totally different experience than seeing a live video because they were a studio band, in my opinion. [00:16:40] Christina: No, they were, although I think that they did well at live stuff. Cause I have a, because they, that was my very first favorite band. And so I have a lot of like bootlegs and like live recordings and stuff that I collected over the years. But you’re right. And then I think, but the big thing obviously was melancholy and the infinite sadness when he is very, brings in the strings and, and, and the [00:17:00] orchestra and again, the layering and then just has so many hits off of that album, which was a double album in an era when that was a hard sell because you didn’t have streaming, you didn’t have, you know, other ways, like you had to buy the whole damn, like, two disk thing. [00:17:16] Christina: Um, but, uh, but then, you know, it’s just the interpersonal stuff unfortunately kind of got in the way. And, and I, and I didn’t mind that the, um, like after Darcy left, I didn’t mind the album with, um, Melissa, um, uh, from whole, [00:17:32] Christina: um, exactly off tomorrow. Um, and, and man, she has to be like, She has to be a saint cuz [00:17:39] Jeffrey: she’s put up with some fucking [00:17:41] Christina: that’s what I’m saying. [00:17:42] Christina: She had to deal with Courtney love during like peak bad Courtney love period. And she was dealing with Billy Corgan during like peak bad Billy Corgan. Like, holy shit, Melissa, like you’re a, like, you deserve better , you know, [00:17:57] Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah. [00:17:58] Brett: How did this, [00:18:00] so, you know what wasn’t on our list of things to talk about today? [00:18:03] Christina: was music. [00:18:05] Brett: It was music in general, especially like nineties music. Uh, somehow we spent 20 minutes doing this. I, I can’t even remember how it started. Um, But that’s okay. That was, that was a fun four four. I’m gonna guess our target demo. [00:18:22] Brett: That was a fun, little fun little walk [00:18:25] Christina: I think so. I think that that was just like, that was a, that was also a very h d like thing to do. Like we just went on like a genuine, like h d tangent and we didn’t stop ourselves. I’m kind of, I’m kind of into that. [00:18:35] Jeffrey: Yep. [00:18:36] Brett: a, I went to a 70 year old trans woman’s poetry reading and, uh, she revealed, she had just been diagnosed with a D H D at like, the age of 60. And like, she had always been a poet. She was very creative, used to be a blues musician. Um, and, and just like all of my questions after, after the reading, you know, [00:19:00] like o open questions, all my questions were like, tell me about being diagnosed. [00:19:06] Brett: At the age of 60. How did that, how did that change things? Did it change things at all? Did that like change your view? Did it change your poetry? Did it change anything? The basic answer was no. I had just, uh, learned to accommodate my brain at that point. Um, but anyway, sorry, that was an ADHD thing. [00:19:28] Christina: no, no. Totally. Okay. Um, [00:19:29] Christina: on [00:19:30] Jeffrey: You’re like all of my questions. [00:19:32] Sonsor: ZocDoc [00:19:32] Christina: was gonna say no. No. Um, uh, I, I was just gonna say, this is a great segue, uh, to talk about our sponsor, Zocdoc. Cuz if you’re looking for a diagnosis and you need to find a doctor, uh, I figured we could do our zoc read and then come back and do a mental health corner. [00:19:46] Brett: Well done. Perfect [00:19:48] Christina: All right? [00:19:48] Brett: you. [00:19:49] Christina: All right. So if you are looking for a doctor because you’re trying to find a cause for your symptoms, Maybe you think you have a d h D, you know, you’re having a hard time focusing. Um, [00:20:00] you, uh, find yourself, uh, kind of pull down rabbit holes. Uh, you might fidget a lot. There are a lot of, there are lot, lot, lot of symptoms. [00:20:07] Christina: You know, you stumble down a TikTok rabbit hole full of questionable advice from so-called experts. And look, do not trust TikTok for health advice. I cannot say that enough times. Like, do not take medical advice from people on TikTok. That is how you get ants. That is also how like you potentially wind up in the emergency room. [00:20:24] Christina: Um, there are better ways to get the answers that you want and the care that you deserve from trusted professionals and not random people on the internet. So Zocdoc helps you find expert doctors in medical professionals that specialize in the care you need and deliver the type of experience you want. [00:20:42] Christina: Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed. Take your insurance are available when you need them, and treat almost every condition under the sun. So when you’re not feeling your best or when you’re just trying to figure out like, what is going on with my knee? [00:20:58] Christina: Uh, this is a thing I’m, [00:21:00] I’m, I’m, I’m going, dealing with right now, and you’re trying to hold it together, finding great care shouldn’t take up all of your energy, and that’s where Zoc Dot comes in. So using their free app that millions of users rely on, including myself, you can find the right doctor that meets your needs, fits your schedule, takes your insurance. [00:21:17] Christina: You can book an appointment with just a couple of taps on the app and you can start feeling better with Zoc. So go to zoc.com/ Overtired and download the Zoc app for free. Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s zoc. Do c.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ Overtired. [00:21:43] Podcast Swap: Mental Chillness [00:21:43] Brett: Speaking of mental health. Thank you, Christina. That was a perfect, that was a perfect one. Take read. Um, uh, speaking of mental health though, we, we do have a promo swap, uh, where once again, uh, swapping with mental chillness, [00:22:00] uh, do you want to tell us about that? [00:22:02] Jeffrey: Yeah, sure. Um, if you’re looking for more mental health podcasts, if you’re in the market, mental chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter, as that sounds nice. It’s led by Khan and Jules, two people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chillness. [00:22:26] Jeffrey: Coming from childhood environments that weren’t open about mental wellbeing and emotional self-regulation, Khan and Jewel are opening up the conversations of the everyday struggles of dealing with A D H D, depression and anxiety, epilepsy, and growing into adulthood. They share tips and tricks of emotional awareness from their personal experiences and how they hold themselves accountable through personal bs. [00:22:51] Jeffrey: What does that mean? [00:22:53] Brett: It means bullshit. [00:22:54] Jeffrey: Personal bullshit. Hold themselves accountable through personal bullshit. [00:22:59] Brett: Why? I think [00:23:00] [00:23:00] Jeffrey: Check out the podcast. And the way they know how to do it best is with humor. You can keep up with them on any podcast platform and the YouTube channel. Mental chillness for full video contents, mental chillness, Just, I’m just trying to help our own listeners get chill. [00:23:21] Brett: We’re also on YouTube, if that’s where you prefer to listen to podcast. Look up Overtired on YouTube. We even published some fun shorts. [00:23:29] Jeffrey: Yep. And I’m auctioning mine. Ha [00:23:34] Christina: But I’ll bump. [00:23:37] Jeffrey: Okay. Hi everybody. [00:23:38] Mental Health Corner [00:23:38] Brett: I’m just doing feet picks. Should we do mental health Corner? [00:23:42] Christina: should. Oh my God. Feet picks. Don’t do that. Don’t do that, Brett. [00:23:45] Brett: I can’t, I have this weird thing on my heels [00:23:48] Christina: Oh yeah, [00:23:49] Brett: I think, that I think is like fungal, but they’re like armored. I have like callouses that in case my, and I do not walk around enough to deserve callouses [00:24:00] like that something is [00:24:01] Jeffrey: What about, do [00:24:02] Brett: I cannot show this to anyone other than a skin doctor. [00:24:05] Jeffrey: or a Pedicurist [00:24:08] Christina: No, they are so judgmental and mean. [00:24:11] Brett: went, [00:24:12] Jeffrey: haven’t had that experience yet, but that’s, I’ve only had a couple, [00:24:15] Brett: we have, we have a, uh, a technical college in town that has a cosmetology school and you can for like five bucks, go get [00:24:25] Brett: a [00:24:25] Jeffrey: student anything. [00:24:27] Brett: and I went, I went, my mom convinced me. She’s like, let’s go get a pedicure. And I’m like, fine, whatever. So I go and they do a chemical bath on my feet and they scrub them, they scrub them clean, which is, it’s nice. [00:24:42] Brett: My feet are soft. They put a fucking clear coat on my toenails, which I hated. Um, [00:24:47] Jeffrey: You could say no to the clear [00:24:48] Brett: I, I didn’t know. I didn’t, I didn’t know what they meant when they said, do you want a clear coat on your toenails? I’m like that, sure. [00:24:55] Jeffrey: just learning. Yeah. [00:24:57] Brett: but the chemical bath left a [00:25:00] circle, a dry, a spot, a circle of dry skin on the top of my foot. [00:25:05] Brett: That lasted for two [00:25:07] Jeffrey: Jesus. Two years. [00:25:09] Brett: Two years. I had this [00:25:11] Jeffrey: Wait, this was at the school. [00:25:14] Brett: I mean, I wasn’t at the school for two years, but yeah. This [00:25:16] Brett: happened [00:25:17] Jeffrey: saying this was the student pedicurist. Uh, no way, man. I was getting, I was getting a, when I lived in New York, I, I got a, um, root canal from a student dentist [00:25:29] Christina: Oh [00:25:30] Jeffrey: and at, at Columbia School of Dentist Gym, like, oh, it’s fucking Columbia. Maybe the students are just a little better, you know what happened? [00:25:36] Jeffrey: So he is, he, this was back in the day where, you know how now they give you like wraparound sunglasses, like you’re fucking barbecuing. Um, and so this was before that. This was when they wore wraparound sunglasses. Um, and, and he was wearing wraparound sunglasses for some reason, and he was doing the filing in my root with the tiny, tiny file, and then he stopped for a minute. [00:25:57] Jeffrey: And he’s looking and he’s looking, and I, I [00:26:00] motioned for him to take the cotton and shit outta my mouth. And I said, what’s up ? And he goes, I just broke the file off in your route. And so he had to get his, he had to get his, uh, you know, [00:26:12] Christina: He had to get his boss. [00:26:14] Jeffrey: or whatever. And in the end of the day, [00:26:16] Christina: real dentist. [00:26:17] Jeffrey: yeah, all they could do was Intuit in there. [00:26:19] Jeffrey: Like, it’s in there. It’s fucking in there. And they were, I was like, could this be a problem someday? They’re like, maybe. I’m like, okay, thanks. I was done with student shit at that point, but he said this look on his face. And I’m like, okay, before you do anything else, you’re gonna tell me why you look like that right now. [00:26:35] Brett: so would you leave your body to science knowing that it would be students that were [00:26:39] Jeffrey: I can’t stand the idea leaving my body to science. I had a, I had a cousin who was in medical school and he once, he would sometimes randomly send me pictures of corpse feet while I was in meetings with my phone up. And I was so disturbed by his decision to do that, you know, and I hated, I just felt so [00:27:00] disrespectful, right? [00:27:00] Jeffrey: Like, um, that I was like, man, I don’t know if I could leave my body to science. I don’t want someone just like toying around. But then again, I don’t know, I’m [00:27:07] Brett: feel like, I feel like once we get. [00:27:09] Christina: I was like, I’m gone. I don’t really care. I mean, my whole thing is like, are they actually gonna use it for anything interesting or is it just gonna be like, [00:27:19] Jeffrey: I don’t want it to be like the lesson for the day, like, here’s [00:27:22] Christina: that’s what I’m saying. [00:27:23] Christina: Yeah. [00:27:23] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:27:25] Brett: We should, uh, we should talk about green burial sometime, but first, mental health corner. You’ve all been waiting. It’s time. Now. We’re at 27 minutes in, uh, the mental health corner. Who wants to kick us off? And the answer could be me, but I’ll, I’ll let you guys decide. [00:27:45] Christina: You go. [00:27:46] Jeffrey: Yeah, go ahead. [00:27:47] Brett: Okay, so I’m in this weird fucking cycle. [00:27:50] Brett: Um, like anyone who’s listening to this show knows that I have like bout to mania that lasts three to five days, followed by a couple weeks of [00:28:00] depression, usually followed by something that could maybe be considered stability, but still leans towards depression. Lately, I’ve been having one day manic cycles. [00:28:11] Brett: Uh, like I’ll loose sleep for one night, or I’ll get up super early and I’ll just bl like blister through a bunch of code and create a bunch of stuff and be like firing on all cylinders. And then before the end of the day, I’ll feel it crash. And then for like three days I’ll, I won’t be able to wake up in the morning. [00:28:31] Brett: I’ll just sleep constantly and then get to. What is actually a, a pretty decent stable, uh, not totally depressed, um, which will last a couple days and then boom, another like one day mania. And I don’t know what to make of this. Uh, the cyclo, emia, cyclo Mia is like the one explanation that I’ve been able to find, but I’ve not had a, a psychiatrist [00:29:00] appointment since this started happening. [00:29:02] Brett: So I don’t have any like, uh, any medical advice on, on what’s going on, but it has been. It has been weird and oddly sustainable. Like, I can work with this, like, being productive every four days of having like a day where I do four days worth of shit. Uh, and then just kinda like sleep and then like have it come back instead of like that three, four weeks of like, not knowing if it’ll ever happen again. [00:29:31] Brett: Just like having this rapid like turnaround. Um, I, it’s not ideal, like, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s not perfect. I have seriously been looking into microdosing [00:29:49] Christina: Okay. [00:29:49] Brett: and like the people that I know that are doing it have seen major improvements in. Depression. [00:30:00] And I think, and I, I, I’ve not, I’ve not run this by my psychiatrist yet, but I will before I do anything. [00:30:07] Brett: Um, but I think that, uh, like shrooms, for example, could, could help with depression without affecting my other medication. Like, the reason I can’t take an antidepressant is because it can trigger mania. And because I’m bipolar, I can’t effectively treat depression, uh, without risking elevating my mood too far. [00:30:33] Brett: Um, but I feel like, uh, the, the lesser studied realm of psychotropics. In treatment of depression, and maybe even like ketamine therapy or something. But I feel like a lot of those could have positive results without the usual, uh, downsides of antidepressants for me. So that’s a thing. And I will keep, I will [00:31:00] keep our listeners posted. [00:31:01] Brett: Um, I, I’m going to do this very carefully and under the advice of medical professionals, but, uh, it is something I’m very curious about. [00:31:12] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s super interesting. I, I so curious about it, and I’m so curious about where, like legislation goes or the, you know, as we, because it’s now to the point where like, even like major mainstream podcasts are doing, like the Mind Bloom read, which is I, the ketamine thing is like little dicey through services like that, I think, but [00:31:30] Brett: We have Keta, we have a, we have a Ketamine therapist in town [00:31:33] Jeffrey: you do. Oh, that’s great. [00:31:35] Christina: Yeah, I, I’m pretty sure we had them too. And we, we had Mind Blum as, as a sponsor a few times. We couldn’t, we couldn’t get them, neither of us could try it because of of, of legislation stuff. This is what I think it becomes really interesting in, you know, how these, how these drugs are like scheduled and, and how, how they’re classified because obviously people use them as street drugs and, and other things, but there are real medical use [00:32:00] cases and so it’s, it’s interesting to see. [00:32:03] Christina: Um, I mean it’s dissimilar insofar as I, ironically, I feel like it’ll be easier to get legislation and, and make things like, um, you know, small amounts of psychedelics or ketamine [00:32:14] Brett: SIL psilocybin and L S D, like all of the loss surrounding that were just like racist to the core. [00:32:21] Christina: No, [00:32:22] Brett: there was never [00:32:23] Christina: Well, no, no. [00:32:24] Brett: any medical danger to them. [00:32:26] Christina: No, no, no. But, but, but I mean in terms of, well, but marijuana there were, there’s, there’s not either. And marijuana [00:32:32] Brett: Again, again, racist to the [00:32:34] Christina: Well, 100%. What I’m saying though is like, marijuana’s this weird thing where, you know, more and more states have it legalized, but it’s not a federal, it’s still illegal. [00:32:42] Christina: Federally, I weirdly could see them making, you know, carve outs for ketamine and, and, and psilocybin and things like that, like at a federal level because the a m a might get involved in lobby and be like, oh, but this is this certain treatment thing. And marijuana, even though it’s a great pain treatment and [00:33:00] whatnot, doesn’t ha you know what I mean? [00:33:01] Christina: Like, they, they’re not, they’re not using it as like a, as as a depression treatment. So, so, so, [00:33:08] Brett: that? It doesn’t have clinical, clinical treatment value. [00:33:11] Christina: right. And so, so it is this weird thing where like, that’s just strictly a recreational thing and you can argue, hey, so is alcohol, you know, like treated the same way. Um, But, but, but the federal government is still like, on their, their hands on it. But that’s what makes this so weird is like, okay, I can, you have like a, a ketamine like place in Winona. [00:33:32] Christina: You’re like, okay, but, but what are, what are the laws here? Like, is this going to violate? Cuz one of the questions that, you know, this, and this is not, not even a, um, this isn’t even a fake thing, this is a real thing, is that like, if you’re trying to apply for like, a government job, for instance, and, and you admit that you’ve done drugs, even if it was under the guise of a doctor, like that could be completely disqualifying. [00:33:56] Christina: So that opens up a lot of questions. Like, like you can’t get a job for [00:34:00] like the federal government if you’re like, yeah, I, I smoke weed or I, I take edibles even though it was Lela in my state. [00:34:06] Brett: we have a PA locally who, I actually saw him when he was at the, uh, major, the hospital in town, um, as a psychiatrist, uh, as a, as a, as a pa. But, um, he left Winona Clinic and started a practice on his own that literally builds itself. I can’t remember the phrasing he uses, but he bill, he builds himself as a weed clinic. [00:34:37] Brett: Like he uses pot to treat all kinds of psychiatric disorders. And he made the headlines of the newspaper as like, basically the guy you go to if you need a, a weed card. And it seems sketchy to me because I don’t see pop being a viable treatment for things like depression or anxiety for that [00:35:00] matter. Um, but that was what he built his practice on. [00:35:04] Brett: I I see a lot more potential for ketamine. [00:35:06] Jeffrey: Have you ever seen the p and peel sketch where, uh, he’s being walked [00:35:11] Brett: Oh yeah, [00:35:12] Christina: Yes. [00:35:12] Jeffrey: you know, you just, he’ll, he’ll, he’ll give you cannabis for anything. And he goes in and the doctor’s like, what’s going on? He is like, AIDS [00:35:18] Christina: Ha, [00:35:20] Jeffrey: Rickets, [00:35:22] Brett: I love [00:35:23] Jeffrey: that. I’ll put a link for that. That is the best sketch. [00:35:26] Christina: and Peele was like such a great show. Um, [00:35:29] Brett: Maybe you have a backache. Nope. [00:35:31] Jeffrey: Nope. Yeah, it’s just like, Uh, amazing. It’s a good bit. [00:35:37] Brett: All right. All that’s my, that’s my mental health update. [00:35:41] Jeffrey: All right, Christina, you wanna go. I [00:35:43] Christina: sure thing. So, uh, I, my, my pen health is doing pretty good. I was just, I was out of town for a week, which, uh, in two different cities. So that is was the first time that I’ve been like, in a while that I’ve done kind of one of like a multi hop thing. So I went [00:36:00] to, um, la, well Pasadena more specifically for, for scale the Southern California Linux Expo, which was really, really fun. [00:36:07] Christina: And it was really great to connect with people. I met some new friends and. Definitely it’s a nerd, uh, conference. I met Ken Thompson and, and, and, and, and like thanked him for everything he’s given us. He was like so humble and nice. Um, and uh, and then I was in, in Salt Lake City area, uh, Sandy for, for work, uh, which was, you know, I, I got to meet up with a friend who lives, um, in, uh, in the area. [00:36:30] Christina: But you know that, that was not as spun as as scale, but no, my mental health is doing, is doing pretty well. Um, I was really, really tired and I took an edible on Thursday night and I slept for 13 hours and that was magical. [00:36:48] Jeffrey: awesome. [00:36:49] Christina: A plus. Cannot, cannot recommend enough. No. But I’ve also been talking to my doctor about potentially doing like ketamine and some of the other, like the. [00:36:57] Brett: Yeah. [00:36:57] Christina: It’s hard because he’s in another state [00:37:00] and, and he could find me someone who would do it, but like, I would need to have someone local to kind of do that. And I have a really hard time trusting and like even wanting to go through the process of like finding a new, or finding like a secondary shrink, [00:37:13] Brett: Understood. [00:37:13] Christina: which which is so funny. [00:37:14] Christina: I have somebody mention to me like, you’re the only person I’ve ever here call, call it a shrink. And I’m like, yeah, maybe that’s an old, like throwaway, like [00:37:22] Brett: a generational thing. [00:37:23] Christina: It Well, it is and it’s not. I think I be, I’ve been going for so long that I’m just like, you know, this is what he is. But I’m also like, I’m not going to my therapist. [00:37:31] Christina: I mean he is, but like, he’s my psychiatrist, so. [00:37:35] Jeffrey: He’s the shrink. [00:37:36] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Um, also, I don’t mind like poking fun of myself a little bit on that, but that did make me think. I was like, oh, okay. [00:37:42] Brett: I think that’s the, the term shrink, like psychologists hate that [00:37:46] Christina: Oh yeah. [00:37:47] Brett: uh, in my experience, like the com head shrinker. Um, but for, for me, it’s a lighthearted way of saying that I need, uh, like therapy, [00:37:58] Christina: That’s how I [00:37:59] Brett: that [00:38:00] I need psychiatric, uh, guidance. And for me, like using, uh, in sixth grade, I, my grandfathers both died on the same day [00:38:09] Brett: and [00:38:09] Jeffrey: What, what? Where were they Both in Manona. [00:38:11] Brett: No, no one was in Missouri, one was in my [00:38:14] Brett: basement. Um, we, we had a, we had a walkout, we had a walkout home, uh, furnished home in our basement where [00:38:21] Brett: my, where [00:38:22] Jeffrey: down there. [00:38:23] Brett: my maternal grandparents were living. And they both, both grandfathers, died on the same day. And I went to my sixth grade math teacher and I said, I gotta go. [00:38:32] Brett: My grandpa kicked the bucket and he sent me to the principal’s office because I was so disrespectful about my grandparents’ death. Like for me, that was how I was coping. [00:38:45] Jeffrey: Wait, how old were you? [00:38:46] Brett: uh, 12 [00:38:47] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:38:47] Brett: and that was, that was my form of coping, was to use a colloquial term to refer [00:38:54] Jeffrey: distances you from the [00:38:55] Brett: Yeah, exactly. And I feel like shrink is very much that, like we use [00:39:00] that almost defensively to say, yeah, I’m going to see my shrink. [00:39:03] Brett: Instead of I’m going to see a licensed psychiatrist to talk about my mental illness. It’s shorthand. [00:39:11] Jeffrey: So wait, hold on. How, I don’t mean to, uh, I don’t mean to make light of this, um, or minimize it, but how close in time did they die? [00:39:19] Brett: About six hours. [00:39:20] Jeffrey: Jesus Christ. That’s crazy. How did they, how did they each go? [00:39:24] Brett: Uh, heart attack, both of them [00:39:26] Christina: Oh my God. [00:39:29] Brett: Yeah. Which is, which is why I am, which is why I go to the ER very quickly when I have any kind of heart related problems. [00:39:38] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Okay. [00:39:41] Brett: Yeah. Sorry, Christina, I didn’t mean to hijack your mental [00:39:44] Christina: No, no, that’s Tyler. That’s totally fine. I’m basically done now, but like, that’s, damn, that’s, that’s, um, that’s intense. Okay. [00:39:52] Brett: was a, it was a fun summer. [00:39:55] Jeffrey: Oof. Um, [00:39:57] Brett: I, I say summer because it was towards the end of the school year, and [00:40:00] then we had to go to two funerals, like as the beginning of my summer break. We went to, we tra traveling around the country, going to funerals. It was fun. [00:40:09] Jeffrey: My, um, my maternal grandfather died on my birthday and I was, and it was pre-cellphone and everything, and I was out that day. And when I got home that night on my voicemail was essentially like an audio diary of his day where my mom would call me and say, Hey, it’s not looking good. Then she’d call and say, Hey, he wants all the sisters and you know, he wants all the siblings here. [00:40:30] Jeffrey: And, and then finally the call that saying that he was, he had passed and it was such a, it was such a intense way to experience the news of his death. Cuz it really, it really unfolded, you [00:40:40] Christina: Because you really, you, you hurt. You hurt. Yeah. [00:40:42] Jeffrey: yeah, yeah. [00:40:43] Christina: and like you weren’t able to like be there and you don’t know what’s gonna happen, you know, until you get to the final call. [00:40:49] Jeffrey: And well, but here’s the thing. It went backwards cuz it’s like the most recent [00:40:53] Christina: Oh, so, oh, right, right, right, right. It starts [00:40:55] Jeffrey: so it was, it [00:40:56] Christina: hear that and you’re going with it, and then you’re going backwards. oh, [00:40:58] Christina: man. So it’s, it’s, it’s, oh, [00:41:00] wow. [00:41:01] Jeffrey: Um. Anyway, uh, is that, is that you Christina? Should I go or do you [00:41:06] Christina: Yeah. Go. Yeah, I’m good. I’m good. [00:41:08] Jeffrey: I just have kind of a hack from my mental health check in. Um, I don’t mean to constantly equate mental health with medication, but because I’ve been in a period that I was warned would be long of kind of trying to find the right medication for bipolar. I, I have, uh, I’m in a situation now where I’m getting off of one medication and, and merging into another. And I’m also in a situation where like I, I have lost my ability to kind of remember when I started taking any particular drug or, you know, when I was taking certain drugs at the same time, whatever. [00:41:44] Jeffrey: So I, um, . What I did was I in my, in my Google calendar, I just made a little like, um, a little calendar event at the top of a day where something needed to happen, either where I started something or decreased it or increased it or ended it right. And [00:42:00] um, and I gave it a hashtag, like hashtag meds in the notes. [00:42:04] Jeffrey: And now on my fantastic, hell on my phone or on my calendar, I can just search hashtag meds and I get a really clear list of what’s coming up. So for me, for me, I have three or four, um, you know, this one goes down a little, this one goes up a little events over the next, um, two months. And I can now just like, and I’m constantly checking it. [00:42:24] Jeffrey: I’m just, even though I kind of know what it is, I just get kind of like nervous I’m gonna miss it or whatever. And so I just do that search hashtag meds, and I get my list and it works on my phone, like I said, with fantastic. How [00:42:34] Brett: That is so [00:42:35] Brett: smart. [00:42:35] Jeffrey: on my desktop, but it’s a huge help. And it’s also just important for me to know when I started meds at all because, uh, up until, um, like March of 20, February of 2020, I had never taken. [00:42:46] Jeffrey: And I started then, and it kind of like to see how it kind of turns into two meds [00:42:51] Brett: There, there are so many times that I’ll, I’ll be some, something will come up in history. Someone will say, well, you did this [00:43:00] thing at this time. Which med were you on? Or had had you? And I won’t remember. Like, I, I don’t, those changes happen and they seem important at the time, but the actual dates, the, the way it correlates with things that I might not immediately associate with them is, is always beyond me. [00:43:19] Brett: So that is a really good hack to be able to just open up the calendar and say, oh yeah, here’s where, here’s where that med change and here’s here’s what it might have affected. In retrospect, I might be able to see that. [00:43:31] Jeffrey: Well, and the, the other thing I’ve bet that’s a little harder is so if you get a, say you get a pill that’s 25 milligrams, but you take 75 milligrams, meaning three of those pills. Right. There’s not an easy way looking at my prescription history to know, um, when I went from one to two to three, I’m sure my prescriber knows, but, um, I was, I just went into my, um, email and I went into my messages and searched the name of that drug and because usually I was telling somebody that I was going up that [00:44:00] day or whatever. [00:44:01] Jeffrey: So that was part of building that history too, cuz it’s like, . It’s like the future and the history are both important to me, and it just, I don’t know what it is. Like putting, being able to look at the kind of boundaries of things just helped me to feel a little less, sort of like, I’m swimming in mats, you know, it’s just like, oh yeah, I started this here because of this. [00:44:19] Jeffrey: And, you know, so that was, that’s been really nice for me, um, because I’ve just, I, I’m not, I don’t love switching out meds. It’s not a, not a particularly nice experience. I mean, the other , the other thing I would just advise people on is that something that my wife and I have realized is like, oh, when I’m dropping an amount or adding an amount, I’m probably for a couple days gonna just be off. [00:44:40] Jeffrey: And oftentimes that offness is like really irritable. Um, and knowing for both of us being able to be like, okay, got it. It’s on the calendar. This is happening right now. Let’s like, let’s remember, you know, um, so. [00:44:55] Brett: Elle is very good about like, noting, like if I tell her, [00:45:00] uh, my, my psychiatrist says I’m gonna make this change and I’ll do make it at my next refill, she will make a note because she knows that like, my mood will shift, even though I don’t, I don’t make any special note of it. Even, even in my own head, I’m just like, okay, yeah, we’re gonna shift medication. [00:45:18] Brett: Maybe eventually things will get better with whatever problem I’m having. Um, but she keeps very close track because it affects our relationship, it affects, uh, our interpersonal communication and to be able to say, yeah, obviously you just did, you know, you just made this change to the chemicals in your body. [00:45:39] Brett: Yeah, that’s really helpful and, and again, like having it on a calendar, there are so many times that would’ve helped me. [00:45:49] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I mean, the other thing too is just knowing, knowing yourself and, and really paying attention. Cause like for me, I know that the most common impact of a medication change is that like, not [00:46:00] only am I irritable, but I just find it completely impossible to be soft. Right? Like, I’m just like all hard [00:46:06] Brett: because it takes, it takes energy to be truly gentle with people. Empathy takes a certain amount of energy, and when your energy is consumed with dealing with your own shit, like whatever happens in your brain when you make a medication change, you don’t have the energy to like accept other people’s input. [00:46:26] Brett: To accept input and process it properly to have a soft response. And that can get, that can get real messy real fast. [00:46:34] Chicago Dibs! [00:46:34] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. . Well, that’s my check in. Um, can I add something to that? That’s really quick. , that’s about irritability. So I had a really bad fall trying to get into my car today because we’re at that point in Minnesota winter where, um, everything outside of your car when you park is like, uh, just a slope of ice basically. [00:46:55] Jeffrey: And so, uh, trying to get into our car in our little driveway, um, you have to like really brace [00:47:00] yourself and all this shit. And I was carrying a big box. I was carrying a coffee and I totally bailed and, and fell and I was so pissed off. But at the end of the day, we don’t really have room on our street for our car anymore because people are used to us. [00:47:12] Jeffrey: Parking in our little teeny drive spot. Right. And I was reminded of, when I lived in Chicago, um, there was a sort of a rule or a kind of a phenomenon called dibs parking. Right? And, and basically what that means is, and what that meant is that if you had a parking space and it was winter, you’re like, the fuck if anybody’s gonna get this space? [00:47:31] Jeffrey: First of all, you position yourself before the first big snowfall so that you have the good spot and then you hold it by putting things like chairs, or I had seen cribs or baby bouncers, or I saw a microwave once. Uh, I’ve seen, I’ve seen, I think I saw a dishwasher, um, that they would just slide out of the way. [00:47:49] Jeffrey: And I am including in the show notes, an amazing photo essay of examples of this. But I wanna just say, Brett and I were talking about this before the show in Minnesota, we’ve gotten to that point where no one gives a shit about [00:48:00] anybody anymore. Right. You’re just like, you’re so tired of dealing with [00:48:02] Christina: It’s just so cold and like, just [00:48:04] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:48:04] Jeffrey: And you’re snow and slipping. And, um, I had this thing happen, the ultimate Chicago dibs experience when I was living in Chicago, in Humboldt Park. Um, and what happened was the person who had reserved a space was watching another person move the chair out of the way and take the spot, and they went out and stabbed the person. That person I think was okay, but I was like, I was like that. That is a rule you don’t fuck with [00:48:38] Brett: This feeds into, this feeds into my mother’s belief that Chicago is a, a hellscape of, of crime and, and, um, she watches a lot of Fox news [00:48:47] Jeffrey: Oh yeah, sure, [00:48:49] Brett: and basically basically Chicago is on fire and everyone is stabbing everyone but [00:48:54] Jeffrey: We were on a block that clearly contained a meaningful gang leader. And I’m pretty sure I knew him, but we [00:49:00] just didn’t talk about it cause he was right next to my house. But like, there was, there was a dude who was about, I mean he was big and strong. He was just a giant and he would walk up and down our street all summer long, um, uh, like on patrol. [00:49:14] Jeffrey: And, and the guy next to me, uh, was I think maybe on house arrest , because he would never come out of the gate. So I would just sit on the stoop and we’d just bullshit. But like one night a guy went through that gate and I’m not , I’m not trying to support your mom’s belief cuz it’s bullshit. He, someone came through that, that gate and just shot up this guy’s picture window right under my window, , and then just like took off. [00:49:37] Jeffrey: It was the crazy, another time a guy pissed the Latin King King’s logo in a snowbank, which I thought was the cool, coolest, most badass thing I ever saw besides the stabbing. Um, anyway, Chicago is incredible. [00:49:48] Brett: I like, there’s one picture in this, in this link you had of, it’s like a chair and a lectern. [00:49:54] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [00:49:57] Brett: Well, there’s one that’s a Bears [00:50:00] parking sign with an arrow [00:50:03] Jeffrey: It was, it was nuts. It was nuts. Anyway, that’s what, that’s what I got. [00:50:08] The MIghty Yeti [00:50:08] Brett: the one add-on I have, we’re talking about death and the, a big, so I’m, I’m about to leave on a, a trip to Michigan, uh, which is, if I were, if I were, if someone said, you get a week off of work, where do you want to go? Uh, Michigan would. Way down on my list, but I’m going, cause it’s where Elle’s sister lives and, and her three kids. [00:50:34] Brett: And we’re gonna have like a, it’s like a family vacation, I guess. Um, not, not something I’m super excited about, but we do get to stop in Chicago and Indian Indianapolis for, uh, [00:50:47] Jeffrey: Two great cities. [00:50:48] Brett: some fun dinners, some fun breakfast, some good overnight stays. Um, and we got a cool Airbnb for the week in Michigan. But anyway, the big concern [00:51:00] is my 19 year old cat could go at any time [00:51:05] Jeffrey: oh, man. [00:51:06] Brett: it, it would break my heart [00:51:09] Jeffrey: Yeah. [00:51:10] Brett: when I was out of town. [00:51:13] Brett: If he had to go on his Yeah. Yeti, if he had to, if he had to go. And I wasn’t there like we are attached at the hip. If I’m around, he is with me. And, um, Like we’re, we have someone house sitting, uh, we’re not sure yet if she is going to be comfortable with like, all the medications he has to take with giving him intravenous, not intravenous, intramuscular fluids. [00:51:38] Brett: Um, subdermal fluids, I guess would be [00:51:41] Jeffrey: with a, with a needle. [00:51:42] Brett: yeah. Um, yeah. And like, because he gets dehydrated. Um, but if you mix in, like we have this cat food we call kitty crack. Um, it’s not, it’s not healthy food, but he will always eat it. So he mix it in with like a bowl of [00:52:00] water and he’ll like slurp it down. Um, and maybe he can get away with that. [00:52:05] Brett: But like, do I, do I, do I leave, uh, a cat with a, an expiration date with a stranger? Or do I send him to board at the vet where I know he’ll get like, the best possible. Medical care, uh, which would, it would honestly, it would cost about the same, uh, the, what we’re paying the house sitter. I could also pay the vet and we’d have to pay twice cause we have two animals. [00:52:33] Brett: But, um, it, it’d be like 40, 40 bucks a day to, to board him at, at the vet. He, we’ve been going to forever and it’s just like I have all these contingency plans. Like if some, if I get a call, like I will, I will have someone drop me off at the airport in Detroit and I will just find like the fastest flight home so that I can be here to hold his hand. [00:52:58] Brett: And it’s just this [00:53:00] weird situation [00:53:00] Jeffrey: Does he get stressed if he’s bordered? Do you think? [00:53:03] Brett: used to, he used to like any change of scenery, used to, he used to get crystals in his bladder, which would have to be expressed through his penis, which was a very painful prospect. And this is how I learned that Yeti will never hurt me, is he would hold my arm, he would wrap his paws around my arm while a vet squeezed a crystal, threw his dick, and he would yell and cry, but he would never extend his claws and he would never bite. [00:53:35] Brett: He would just hold my arm until it was over, and then he would be fine. [00:53:40] Jeffrey: wow. [00:53:41] Brett: he is, he is like, honestly, like I, I know he’s my cat. I’m gonna say he is the best cat, but he, he is the best cat I have ever known. He is just gentle to the core, extremely empathetic. Um, he’s been an amazing partner and I don’t want him to die [00:54:00] without me. [00:54:00] Christina: Totally. So, okay, so in that case, maybe being with the vet, like who do you think is gonna call you more reliably? [00:54:08] Brett: I don’t know. [00:54:10] Jeffrey: Well, that’s a good question. [00:54:12] Brett: I, I think the vet would feel responsible enough to, or I think the vet would recognize a problem before a house center would, I think the vet would be more proactive in that regard because we’re basically, we’re gonna give the house sitter the best information we have, uh, and try to give her an i her an idea what to look out for. [00:54:34] Brett: But she’s not trained. She doesn’t, and she doesn’t know Yeti the way I know Yeti. Like, like I can see discomfort in Yeti’s eyes. I know when he’s not. Okay. She’ll have no idea. Um, cuz cats hide, hide pain, right? Like, like they, they make it all very internal. And I have 20 years of. Knowing when Yeti is not [00:55:00] okay, and she’ll have no idea. [00:55:01] Brett: So maybe, maybe the bet is, and he’s old enough to not give a fuck where he is these days. Like he, you can take him anywhere and he just, he’ll just sleep. Like, he’s like, all right, this is a comfy spot. I don’t care where I am anymore. Like, he used to freak out about leaving home, but I don’t, I think he would be okay. [00:55:21] Brett: I think he would just sleep all day at the vet. [00:55:23] Christina: Yeah. So I, I, I would say the vet and then I would like be very clear with the vet, be like, look, I wanna be here with him. So if you’re noticing things, don’t, don’t like, think that you’re putting me out or whatever, just call me because I will find a way back. [00:55:37] Brett: I, I will fly home. Yes. Yeah. So anyway, that’s, I guess that’s actually part of my mental [00:55:43] Christina: I was gonna say, this [00:55:44] Jeffrey: Yeah. No kidding. [00:55:45] Christina: that you’d be going through. Like this is, this is a lot, you know, I mean, and, and then like, and, and, and I’m so sorry that this is gonna be like hanging over you, like with this family stuff, like when you’re there, you’re not really going to be there. [00:55:55] Christina: There’s gonna be a part of you that is always concerned about [00:55:58] Brett: been, it’s been like that for a couple [00:56:00] years now. Like I’ve never, he’s old enough that anytime I leave for more than a few days, like there’s always the possibility that things go south while I’m gone. And it’s always, it always drags on my, my heartstrings to like, to like leave. And I, I can’t, I can’t just [00:56:19] Brett: sit [00:56:20] Christina: No, you can’t. You know, I mean, no, that, that’s, that’s like a difficult thing is, is especially if it’s been a couple of years, like, because then, um, then, then like, you know, you’ve had like the opportunity costs, you know what I mean? Like, you’re like, okay, well I stayed home for all this period of time and it was fine. [00:56:34] Christina: Like, what did I give up? And now it’s like, okay, now it might actually be closer to time, but like I, I, you know, can’t, [00:56:40] Brett: my, [00:56:41] Christina: to be in stasis? [00:56:42] Brett: my maternal grandmother had Parkinson’s and, uh, she, she was given like a year to live and, uh, she went into hospice care and. She lived for another 10 years [00:56:58] Christina: Oh my god. [00:56:59] Brett: [00:57:00] in hospice care for 10 years. And, uh, at, at, at most, for most of it, I was the only person left in town, uh, like my parents had had to move. [00:57:11] Brett: And, uh, it was me living in Winona and visiting my grandmother. And it got to the point where it was like, she’s never gonna die. [00:57:24] Jeffrey: Mm. [00:57:24] Brett: and honestly, by the time we got the phone call by, I got the phone call like, your, your grandmother has passed. Uh, it was a relief. [00:57:33] Christina: It had to be, [00:57:34] Brett: she just kept and, and like, not in a, she could barely talk. [00:57:39] Christina: well, this is what I’m saying, like, like it wasn’t living right. Like, like, like her, like her, her, her, her, her, her, you know, she was breathing [00:57:46] Brett: was, yeah. Literally just breathing. She wasn’t mentally there. She, she couldn’t do anything physically by herself without help. Like she had to be moved. She had to be picked up, put it in the wheelchair, pushed to the table, fed [00:58:00] food, and then taken back to bed. And it was no way to live. [00:58:03] Brett: I, it’s part of why my, um, my living will is very clear about if I am, if, if I can go, let me [00:58:12] Christina: totally. You have a D N r? Um, yeah. Um, my, my grandmother and it wasn’t like that, but she, she was, it, you know, she, she was in, um, nursing home and she died and whatnot, but it was one of those things where she had a A A D N R and we were very grateful for that because when she went and we were there, um, like, you know, we, we’d said our goodbyes and whatnot, but she hadn’t been, she had had mental acuity in quite some time, um, uh, because she had Alzheimer’s or dementia or, you know, whatever. [00:58:44] Christina: Um, but, but it was, it was one of those things where like, when you see that happen, like when you see like prolonged suffering, we were really glad that she had, you know, we had the, we had the advanced directive to, to not continue to keep her going because. God, that’s a nightmare to be, you know, [00:59:00] in hospice you think, which is supposed to be for, for end stages and then go another decade and then lose even more [00:59:07] Brett: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t care how young you are right now, go out, uh, find whatever, whatever resources you need. A lawyer or the hospital can provide you with the forms. Uh, but have a living will have, have a get your d n R in order because shit can happen. And unless you wanna live as a vegetable and be a train on everybody, make, get that, get that in writing. [00:59:36] Brett: Get that taken care of now while you’re young, while you still have the option. We should do a whole episode on euthanasia. I feel like that would be a real upper, [00:59:46] Jeffrey: Yeah. Okay. That [00:59:47] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say now, now, now, [00:59:49] Jeffrey: Tune in next week, everybody. [00:59:50] Christina: next week when we, when we have a a, a live viewing of Million Dollar Baby, A group viewing. Yeah. [00:59:57] Grapptitude [00:59:57] Jeffrey: Hey, it’s gratitude [01:00:00] time [01:00:00] Brett: Oh, shit. Yeah. [01:00:02] Christina: Yeah, we didn’t talk about anything that we were going to talk about, [01:00:04] Brett: We had, we, we hit nothing on our [01:00:07] Christina: Zero. [01:00:08] Jeffrey: I got, I got, I’ll take first gratitude. It’s not exactly an app, but, um, the New York Post has a, has a , has a page where you can just look at their covers and, and I’ve long [01:00:22] Christina: Oh, I love it. [01:00:23] Jeffrey: respected and ab horde their, um, their skills. And so I just wanna give you a few examples from recent covers. [01:00:30] Jeffrey: Okay. For the, um, for the story about the spy balloon being shut down, headline Pop secret, [01:00:38] Christina: Ha. Pop secret. I love it. [01:00:40] Jeffrey: uh, for, um, Sam Bankman Fried, who we all remember is a very hairy crypto bro. Harry Plotter. Hmm. How about that? [01:00:49] Christina: I love it. [01:00:50] Jeffrey: With a, with another bit. They have a couple bullets. One is begs for bail because he’s a quote, depressed vegan, [01:00:57] Brett: What was the, what was the Donald Trump [01:01:00] after the midterms one? [01:01:01] Jeffrey: Oh, I don’t [01:01:02] Brett: It was a hump. It was a Humpty reference. [01:01:04] Jeffrey: was a good one. Here’s one that’s about the, uh, covid leaked from the Chinese lab. It had to be woo. Ugh. God. I got a couple more. Okay. Um, Baldwin, uh, this is the subhead. Baldwin was on cell phone during gun safety training, which by the way is awful. Headline Dolt 45. Uh, that one goes woo. [01:01:25] Jeffrey: Uh, and what do I, last one is about the, uh, bailout of Silicon Valley Bank and its tech support and the s is a dollar sign. Anyway, you, they, it turns out they have their own little webpage just for their covers, cuz they, they know how good and horrible they are at that, uh, at that game. I am not in any way, shape or form, uh, [01:01:48] Brett: Endorsing the post [01:01:49] Jeffrey: or endorsing for the work of, of the New York Post, but I s I remain in, in disbelief. [01:01:56] Jeffrey: Uh, so anyway, that’s [01:01:57] Brett: It’s, it’s kinda like the Enquirer, like [01:02:00] you can really enjoy the cover of the Enquirer without [01:02:03] Christina: I I’m, I’m gonna, [01:02:05] Brett: the Enquirer. [01:02:06] Christina: the post is better than the Inquirer. Like it’s a higher quality thing, but you’re not wrong. But the Post is just, they have the best headlines, and I love the war between the posts and the daily news. Like, like, they’re, like ongoing, like beef is one of the greatest things in media. Um, make sure you put that, that, that website, [01:02:23] Christina: um, in, in, uh, in, in the links, [01:02:27] Brett: what’s the uk, is it the Daily Caller? Is that the, [01:02:30] Christina: well, the, the Daily Mail and it, the, the, the Daily [01:02:32] Brett: Daily Mail. That’s The Daily Mail is what I’m thinking of. They do, they do the same kind of just fucking great headlines with just horrible, horrible takes on everything. [01:02:43] Christina: Yeah. And, and, and the Daily Mail and, uh, the Post have like some sort of syndication thing because both of them will pay for the paparazzi shots. So, and then like the Daily Mail, what I love about them is they’ll do like this exhaustive like, description of every single photo that you see in like, the most, like, deranged way [01:03:00] in like, and in like insulting or in, in, or in some cases, like weirdly like complimentary method. [01:03:05] Christina: And then they describe the clothing and the like, oh, you can buy this top just like this person that we’re shitting on. Um, it, it’s, it’s really, really fantastic. But no, but post headlines are the best. Uh, and, and look, page six has some good gossip sometimes. And, and I, and I, and, and I miss, I Ms. Keith Kelly’s media column because he was, uh, a great, he, he, he retired, uh, last year, but he always had like the dirt, so that’s a very good [01:03:31] Jeffrey: Yeah. [01:03:32] Christina: Um, [01:03:33] Brett: guys, did you guys see Neela Patel’s, um, printer [01:03:38] Christina: Yes. That was the best thing. That was the best thing I’ve read. I saw it. Oh, it’s so good. It’s perfect. It’s exactly what you would think. It’s that it, it, all it is is, yeah. [01:03:47] Brett: hi. Hi. The headline, if I, um, this is from memory, but, uh, best Printer 2023, just by the Brother Laser printer that everybody has. It’s fine. [01:03:58] Jeffrey: Yeah.[01:04:00] [01:04:00] Christina: That’s exactly what it is. And, and it, and it’s so good. It was one of those things that I, that, uh, I saw and I was like, yep, this is accurate. And then it shows off all the different photos the [01:04:08] Brett: follow the link for whatever, for whatever, for whatever we get the most affiliate profit from. That’s what the lingo before. Just click it. [01:04:17] Christina: just click it. They’re like, this is the one you want. Like, I’ve had mine for forever. And then it has like photos of different, like Verge, you know, staffers. And it’s so funny because this is what I’ve been telling people for years. I’m like, just get a brother printer. Like get the all in one, get [01:04:28] Christina: the other thing. [01:04:29] Christina: It’s, it’s fine. It’ll last you forever. You just need to print shipping labels and occasional documents. You’re not caring about photos or anything else. Just get the brother printer. Like I, I, I made my dad get one of those and then he bought an HP anyway and I was pissed off. I was like, just use the brother. [01:04:44] Christina: The brother is fine. [01:04:46] Jeffrey: My, uh, my brother I, I believe is kicking up the air. It kicks up about every, um, three years cuz I’ve had it forever, which is optical photo conductor near end of life which I [01:05:00] think is just the drum. I can’t remember. It’s whatever holds the toner, but you just replace that every three years and you’re fine. [01:05:05] Brett: just for clarity, the reason I got here was because Christina said that sometimes in the description they tell you where you can buy [01:05:13] Brett: the clothing, and I was like, yeah, affiliate cash. And then that led me to Neely Patel’s. Okay. Just, just to just clarify the trade of thought. [01:05:22] Christina: totally, totally. I, I, I didn’t know I was, I was like, if that was gonna be your gratitude, although it was like a great thing. I was, I was like, that’s a weird, I was like, that’s a weird gratitude thing. But [01:05:30] Brett: my, my gratitude, I, I really thought we were gonna talk about AI this episode, just because it’s so prevalent [01:05:37] Christina: yeah, we didn’t even get to talk about G P T four, but it’s okay. [01:05:40] Brett: but, and, and we will get to it cuz it’s not going away. Um, my picks for the week are, uh, swift, g p t. We’ve talked about some Mac uh, clients for chat, G p T before, um, a newish one came out called Swift, G p t. [01:05:59] Brett: It’s free. [01:06:00] It gives you, this is since the actual release of the api. Uh, so it’s no longer just a wrapper around the web interface and you get an actual, like iMessage chat interface to chat G P t. It’s really well done. Uh, for some reason it doesn’t have like sparkle updates yet. You have to download new versions. [01:06:22] Brett: Uh, but Mac updater, we’ll let you know when there’s a new version. Um, and it is, it, you can, you can put in your own API key. Uh, so, and it will tell you it’ll track cost for you, uh, if you have your own API key in there. Um, and then the other one that is similar is, right ma, uh, which I discovered through Product Hunt. [01:06:45] Brett: I, I tried it out, decided to pay for it. The developer was like, oh my God, thank you. How did you find out about this? And I explained to was from Product Con. Um, I don’t think he’s getting a ton of business, but he has written a [01:07:00] chat G P T interface that works with Mac OS accessibility. So you can just highlight some text, hit a shortcut key, and pop up a chat G P T interface that you can predefine prompts on. [01:07:14] Brett: So you can have like an explain this prompt or a comment, this code prompt or like whatever prefix prompt you want, and it will insert the selected text into. what it sends to chat G b T, which makes it very seamless to like, if you wanna reply to an email, you like highlight the text that someone sent you, you bring it up, you hit reply positive or reply negative, and it will write your, your email response for you. [01:07:44] Brett: And then you can, uh, click it and paste it into your email program. And it, it, because it’s a Mac os uh, accessibility application, it works in any app that has accessibility features. [01:08:00] Um, and, and it’s, I think it’s really well done. I think he deserves, uh, a little more traffic than he may be getting [01:08:06] Christina: Fantastic. Fantastic. So my pick of the week, so this is something that I did yesterday, um, and, and I need to play around. Some of these a little bit more, um, I’ll have a couple things linked, but I’ve been playing around with, um, with, with, with Pam, um, modules, um, which is like Apple’s um, authentication system so that, you know, there’s a way where you can add like pseudo to with, with touch ID support to your terminal. [01:08:31] Christina: There’s like a brew command that you can install and that’ll even like monitor whether the pam, um, uh, file has been updated or not. Um, but uh, I finally got app, my Apple Watch working on my, on my imax so that I could use that for, for, for pseudo. But, but I found out somebody was one of my followers on, on, um, Macon was like, I like that, but I can’t use both touch ID and Apple Watch at the same time. [01:08:55] Christina: And so someone created a PAM module [01:09:00] that adds watch authentication in addition to touch id. So if you have both and, and, and like you wanna, for instance, use watch when your, uh, the lid on your, on your MacBook is closed, you can do that. So, um, So if you, you have a watch paired your Mac or fingerprints enrolled for unlocking, you can use the module to authenticate both of them. [01:09:18] Christina: And so this is called, uh, pam underscore w t i d. And uh, it is, um, a patch on, um, an existing module, um, to, to be able to add support for both. Anyway, the, the, the GitHub, um, the guy goes through all the details of all the different things that he looked at. And how he ended up having to do what he did. [01:09:41] Christina: There’s some, there’s a thing in the GitHub issue that it might have some issues on Ventura. I have not played with that aspect yet, but I feel like we could probably find a way to fix this. Um, but I’ll, I’ll have a couple of these pan modules in, uh, in, in, in the links. But the, this one, um, the, the W T I D that does [01:10:00] both is really good. [01:10:00] Christina: That’s not the one I installed. I installed the original Apple Watch one, which, um, does work on, on, um, uh, apple silicon. But you need to, you need to update the make file, which, and, and, and the, the, the developer has been MIA on GitHub for over a year. So, [01:10:18] Christina: So that one, somebody’s created a fork and like I could create a fork too. [01:10:21] Christina: What I’m trying to see if I could do is if I can get this, this, this Pam W T I D thing working correctly, I’ll submit a pass to them of course, but I might just fork my own. I would love to like have it so that, um, do do the same thing that, um, uh, the, the version that is, uh, updates that’s installed and um, via home brew and they auto checks, um, with any update to, to automatically update like it’s just a bash script of the runs and will automatically update, uh, when you install new versions of, of, of Mac Os. [01:10:50] Christina: I’ll, I’ll see if I can like basically hack together like a Frankenstein, uh, thing that we’ll do all of those things. So, [01:10:56] Brett: Here’s some weirdness. I, I, I don’t [01:11:00] know if, if it’s related to my messing around. The PAM authentication system. But if I use pseudo in, I term it, any pseudo command will crash. I term immediately Pseudo, anything pseudo minus says pseudo any command immediate crash. And no. And I’ve sent the crash logs to them. [01:11:27] Brett: I haven’t gotten a response. Uh, but if I do the same thing in terminal, no [01:11:33] Christina: fine. [01:11:33] Brett: It’s fine. [01:11:34] Christina: Interesting. So what I would, what I would be curious about would be when the next, like when, when you have another Mac OS version, which will reset that entire directory, I would be curious if that fixes the problem. So like, before I would run one of those commands again, I, I would be curious if that fixes the problem. [01:11:55] Brett: I have an, I have an update waiting for me. It’s a disappoint update [01:12:00] of Ventura, uh, which I don’t think we’ll reset it, but, but I also, like, I I, I removed all the PAN modules I had installed, [01:12:09] Christina: Right. But, [01:12:10] Brett: still [01:12:11] Christina: and it still. [01:12:11] Brett: be completely unrelated. [01:12:13] Christina: It might be unrelated, but Yeah. But it is your pseudo file back to what it was originally. [01:12:18] Brett: Yeah, [01:12:19] Brett: yeah. Removed. Removed all references to any additional authentication methods. Uh, it, it’s still, I, I can’t explain it. I don’t know why that, I don’t know what happens when you create a, when you run a pseudo command that could possibly crash an app. Like I could see the, the command failing. I could see errors in the shell, but to crash the app, I don’t understand how that could happen. [01:12:48] Christina: Yeah. That’s weird. I’m not sure either. Um, yeah, I don’t know. Um, that could be a lot of things that, oh, that is the one thing I will say. If you’re playing around with these things, make sure you back. [01:13:00] Your, uh, your, your pseudo file, because I did make a mistake, boy that I had like a wrong character or something in mine, and then all of a sudden, like pseudo was broken and I was able to just, uh, fuck with a permissions and, and finder of all places [01:13:12] Brett: Yeah. Cuz you can’t edit your pseudo file without pseudo, it’s kind of a catch [01:13:16] Brett: 22 there. [01:13:18] Christina: Except if you go to go to folder and you go to find it and find her and then you like adjust, like you unlock it and then you, you know, adjust just, just the rewrite permissions or whatever. Like it’s, it’s you, you can do it. Um, I mean, I also could have start restarted in recovery mode, um, and had a route, but, but I was, I didn’t wanna like restart my computer. [01:13:34] Christina: I was like, I actually still have five thou thousand tabs open. I’m doing other things. I don’t have time for this. Um, so I was able to get around it, but I was like, oh, okay. This is why the, the one that has the, the home brew auto update thing, this is why they do like a a, they make a a dot back of your, of your pseudo file. [01:13:50] Christina: I was like, that’s smart. That’s what I should have done. Can’t say that I didn’t do this to myself, that I didn’t know what I was doing. But if you are gonna be playing around with these pan modules, Yeah, make sure you have [01:14:00] backups, um, because otherwise you could, yeah, then you can’t edit pseudo, uh, you know, you can’t use pseudo without pseudo and uh, and that’s not great. [01:14:10] Christina: So, um, but, but it’s fun. And I do have to say like, so cuz I, so I have, um, two apple silicon machines. And I love them and they’re great, but my iMac is still really, really powerful. And I’ve got like the, the, the two screens. I mean, I, I also connect the, the, the, um, uh, studio display to my laptop sometimes. [01:14:29] Christina: But like in my office, like I have like my big like 27 inch iMac and I’ve got, you know, the studio display and like the Zac has 128 gigs of RI and, you know, a 10 core, you know, like beefy intel cpu and a really, really good, uh, gpu. Like it’s in a lot of ways still better than, uh, for, for some purposes, especially with, you know, VMs and stuff than, uh, than even using my apple silicon stuff. [01:14:53] Christina: Even if it, like, the fans come on and it’s, it’s not silent. So what, but what’s annoying is [01:15:00] that even though it has a secure enclave, um, you can’t use the touch ID keyboard with it, which is, which is completely an arbitrary Apple decision. They absolutely could have done that because Touch ID was on Intel Max first. [01:15:13] Christina: And so if you’ve got the secure enclave. Which this one does. You know, there should be no reason why you can’t have the touch ID third party keyboard, but you can’t. Um, and so it’s really annoying for me to have to type a password in all the time when passwords, um, uh, account is, is pretty good. Uh, oh, I will give a shout out to Okta. [01:15:36] Christina: This is, sorry, we’re just talking about authentication stuff cuz this is annoying to me. Okta now supports PAs keys, at least my instance does, which is great because if, when you’re logging in, if you don’t wanna have to reach around the back of your computer to find your, um, your UBI key, or if your UBI key, your, your, your secondary one is like in a bag of someplace and you’re like, man, I really don’t wanna fuck with this right now. [01:15:58] Christina: If you set up, um, [01:16:00] uh, in, in your Okta settings, you can set up, uh, your, your phone as like, uh, a PAs key and then you can just scan the QR code on another machine and then on your iPhone it’ll come up and be like, do you wanna use the PAs key that is saved to this account to log in? I’m like, yes, yes, I do. [01:16:15] Christina: Brilliant. So, so Pass Keys are great across platform and they’re supported by all the different, um, uh, big, you know, Microsoft, Google, apple, uh, it’s a consortium that came together for them and the, the, um, the Okta support really handy. Also, if you’re trying to like, look at ways to have to avoid typing in your password as many times as, as I do when you’re on an Intel Mac if, or I guess if you were on like a, you know, like a a Mac Studio or Mac Mini Apple, Silicon One, and you, you didn’t wanna pay for the, the Apple Touch ID keyboard because you’re like, I actually want a keyboard that feels good and, and, and you don’t wanna do it. [01:16:53] Christina: What, what Jason Snell did, which was like, cut it, cut it up to like find a way to, you know, get, get, get the sensor [01:17:00] into a, a normal [01:17:00] Brett: I, I would love, I would love a touch id sensor on my ultimate hacking keyboard, but I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna switch keyboards just for the touch Id. [01:17:10] Christina: Absolutely. And that’s the thing, [01:17:11] Brett: even though I hate using my watch, cuz right now during the winter, I always have long sleeves on. So I’ve got my fingers on the home row. A a prompt comes up, I have to pull my hands up the keyboard, pull back my sleeve, and then I wear my watch backwards for various and sundry reasons. [01:17:29] Brett: But that means I have to like, grasp my watch from the right and then carefully double tap the button on the left because if I hit the wrong button, it’ll dismiss the password prompt. It’s kind of a pain in the ass. And I would rather, I think in most cases, so I use, I use key bindings. Don’t tell anyone this, this is secret, but I use key bindings and I have a, I have a sequence. [01:17:55] Brett: If I type a certain sequence of keys, it fills in my system password. [01:17:59] Christina: [01:18:00] smart. Oh, I should do that. [01:18:02] Brett: and it’s, it’s a complex sequence. It like, You’d have to, you, you would have to be me to [01:18:07] Christina: I was gonna say, you have to be in your brain. [01:18:09] Brett: you would never guess it. But it’s way shorter than typing my system password. Um, [01:18:14] Jeffrey: You know, who wears their watch backwards? [01:18:16] Brett: my dad [01:18:17] Jeffrey: Snipers, [01:18:18] Christina: Huh. [01:18:21] Brett: I, I do it because in yoga, uh, if I go into like a downdog or anything on my, where my palm is on the ground, bent backwards, it will hit the button on my watch and will set, set off the emer, the sos alarm, [01:18:40] Christina: Oh, very bad. [01:18:42] Brett: to people in a yoga [01:18:43] Brett: class. [01:18:44] Jeffrey: wear it backwards like that. So it’s not that the face is, um, [01:18:47] Brett: I just, so, so that the crown, the crown and the button are on the [01:18:51] Christina: Got it. Got it. Okay. Now I do have a question for you. Are, are you, um, a, a, a right wrist or a left wrist watch person? [01:18:58] Brett: Left w left [01:18:59] Christina: Same. [01:19:00] Uh, Jeff? [01:19:01] Jeffrey: Same. [01:19:02] Christina: Left wrist? Yep. [01:19:04] Brett: Who, what, [01:19:05] Brett: what, what, Right-handed person. Yeah. I can’t imagine wearing a watch on my right [01:19:11] Christina: I can’t either. Uh, it would be weird and, and I assume it’s because we’re all right-handed, but I don’t know. Um, I did have to at, uh, when I went to Disney World, um, I got there, there were stupid magic band things, which are not stupid. I mean, it was, you know, uh, we, I, I, I bullied my, my, my two friends into both buying magic bands. [01:19:29] Christina: I was as disappointed that mine, which was still over. Was just purple. Whereas they had like really like terrible like kind of themed ones. But the thing is, is that you could do most of what you could do with the Magic band, with your Apple watch, but not everything. And like the magic band was great cuz like, we get you into the hotel room and like if you, if we’d chosen to do this, we could even hooked up like a credit card to it. [01:19:50] Christina: But it was like great for like, you know, getting into the, into the rise and like, uh, uh, I, I stupidly bought the photo pack, like where the photographers will take all [01:20:00] the pictures for you. And it was like $200, but I got my money’s worth. I I, I did the math and I was like, this is how many photos we have to take for this to be worth it. [01:20:07] Christina: And we more than did that. I was like, good. But like, but I had like, but it’s basically the same size as Apple Watch. So like my Apple watch on on one wrist and then I have like the magic band on the other and it was so weird having something on my right wrist. Um, [01:20:20] Jeffrey: I bet. Yeah. [01:20:22] Christina: I had to use the kid size, um, of, of, of the, the magic band thing. [01:20:26] Christina: Like, like genuinely, like it was one of those things, like they’ve got like a longer band, like it’s clearly for adults and then like you have to rip that part of it off the kid size. It was like, oh yeah, I, I’ve always said I have childlike wrist, but now this is proof cuz I’m, I’m only halfway through like this, this, this thing. [01:20:41] Christina: Like, I, there’s no way I even could have a approached, like the adult one. I’m like, I’m like, I’m like halfway through the kid thing. I’m like, yep. Cool. that was also just a random tangent, but, but, uh, but, but, but Pam w uh, t i d and I’ll have some other, um, of the, the modules linked because they’re, uh, this is [01:21:00] like a fun thing to, to play with and potentially bork your system. [01:21:02] Christina: So again, [01:21:03] Brett: Yeah, totally. [01:21:04] Brett: It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing when it works and at worst it’ll just break your system. It’ll be fun, [01:21:13] Jeffrey: Uh, that’s awesome. [01:21:14] Brett: All right, so just a quick recap of all the things we didn’t talk about today. We, we didn’t talk about TikTok and acquisitions. We didn’t talk about G P T four or Bard or ai. We didn’t talk about how Samsung is full of shit from Moom picks to foldable phones. Um, and we didn’t talk about the post office. [01:21:34] Brett: These are all things that may come up in the next episode. So stay tuned. [01:21:38] Jeffrey: Not euthanasia. [01:21:39] Christina: Not [01:21:40] Brett: Not, no, we’re prob probably [01:21:43] Jeffrey: You know what? Let’s, let’s go, let’s go straight from euthanasia to get some sleep. [01:21:48] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, uh, [01:21:50] Jeffrey: but not eternal rest. [01:21:52] Brett: Get some sleep. [01:21:54] Outro: The.[01:22:00]

Brett and Jeff fend for themselves as the conversation turns to microdosing, extensible software, Electron woes, and technology past and present. Sponsor Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired. Promo Swap: The Nerd Room — Are you looking to get more out of your fandom experiences? Do you wish you had the time to keep up with all the latest news and insights about your favourite film franchises? Check out The Nerd Room on all major podcast platforms. For more from The Nerd Room, head to thenerdroom.net or use the hashtag #WeTheNerd Show Links Michael Pollan – How to Change Your Mind Doing TextExpander QuickSilver BBEdit RegexRX Path Finder Brett’s Popclip Extensions Join the Conversation Come chat on Discord! Twitter/ovrtrd Instagram/ovrtrd Youtube Get the Newsletter Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter. Transcript Elegantly Extensible [00:00:00] Jeff: Hello, you are listening to the Overtired podcast. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel, and I am here with Brett Terpstra. Christina is away this week. Hello, Brett. [00:00:17] Brett: Hello, Jeff. Um, I had a dream. Last night that we had already recorded, or like I, we did, we did the recording in my dream. Uh, so I have already spent in dream time. I have already spent an hour talking to you, um, in, in which almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong. There were crashes and restarts and like we started, and I forgot to say who was doing the intro. [00:00:43] Brett: So there’s this whole like, garbled thing at the beginning and then I swore I swore right away because I recently read that. Uh, and it doesn’t matter for us cause we don’t monetize on YouTube. But on YouTube, if you drop the F-bomb in the first 15 seconds [00:01:00] of your video, according to the new profanity rules, you get demonetized. [00:01:06] Jeff: Wow. [00:01:07] Brett: And you can, you can use the FBO after that. Um, as long as it’s not, I can’t remember how they phrase it, but like, it was like, don’t do it too much. Um, and don’t put it in your screenshots, your, like your thumbnail image. Um, there’s all these new profanity rules, but they’re actually laxer than what they had before. [00:01:27] Brett: Now, now you can say the FBO and still get partially monetized. Anyway, like that was on my mind. So in the dream [00:01:35] Jeff: Yeah. [00:01:36] Brett: dream, I was intentionally not swearing. [00:01:39] Jeff: That’s amazing, [00:01:40] Brett: Yeah. [00:01:42] Jeff: Well, it’s too bad we can’t access that file somehow. [00:01:44] Brett: I know. We could save a lot of time. [00:01:46] Jeff: We could, [00:01:47] Brett: Have a real, really trippy episode. It was, it got weird. It got weird. [00:01:53] Jeff: Well, let’s see what happens in, uh, in real life. [00:01:56] Mental Health Corner [00:01:56] Brett: Yeah. So, uh, so we’re gonna [00:02:00] reinstate after a couple weeks off, uh, the mental health corner. Would you like, would you like to kick off the, the season? We should start season four soon. Um, [00:02:12] Jeff: Season three was like five episodes. [00:02:14] Brett: was it, I thought it was like 20, it was 20 episodes. We’re on, this [00:02:18] Jeff: Really? Oh yeah. It’s three 20. Oh my God. See, this’ll, this ties into my mental health check-in [00:02:23] Brett: All right. Go for it. [00:02:25] Jeff: Um, I don’t know. I think it’s just that I’m trying to do too much, but my sense of space and time is really messed up. Like it wasn’t good to begin with, but I’ll be in a conversation. [00:02:39] Jeff: It was just in a conversation with my wife actually. I was like, well, we talked about that on Friday. She’s like, eh, it was Monday. I was like, oh, Uhhuh. Okay. Got it. And that’s not just being like a stupid sitcom husband. It’s like . It’s like, [00:02:51] Brett: mean that’s, that’s a common ADHD symptom, like time dilation and, yeah. [00:02:58] Jeff: But it’s, it, it’s been really, [00:03:00] really hard the last couple weeks. I mean, um, and I think it is, I’m trying to do too much. I’m doing a lot in the house. I’m doing a lot at work. Um, there’s a lot of sort of, at work, especially, I’m wrapping up a five year project, which is gonna take a few months, but it’s like, there’s just a lot of feelings around that. [00:03:19] Jeff: Um, and just a lot of work around that. I took on a new role in our, um, I’m, I’m a member owner of a, of a research, uh, cooperative, uh, a research firm that focuses on, um, mostly on social justice efforts, essentially. So organizations that have social justice at their focus, we do research and evaluation for them. [00:03:40] Jeff: And so I’m, I also took on a new role, um, on, on the board and with our organization. And so, I don’t know, man, I just, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m daily noticing myself kind of failing to, um, Remember things that it’s kind of unbelievable. I failed to remember. Um, and, and [00:04:00] despite having notes or whatever else it is, I mean, I just, I can’t, I’ve never been able to fully explain it. [00:04:04] Jeff: They do describe it as an A D H D symptom. Um, I just, it, it doesn’t, even, even with that, it doesn’t seem like, it seems like I should be able to, um, get on top of it. It seems like I should be able to systematize it, but I’ve, I, I’m not sure that for me, I believe in the longevity of systems anymore. Um, and I am, I am constant evidence of that from my life. [00:04:30] Brett: So like what, is there anything historically that has worked for you to stay on top of these things that, that rationally seem like you just shouldn’t forget, but you do? [00:04:41] Jeff: I mean, my calendar works pretty, pretty well for me. Uh, it’s just that one of the things that can happen is, uh, I can look at my calendar in the morning and have forgotten most of it, um, by lunchtime, you [00:04:53] Brett: I do the same I do. [00:04:55] Jeff: Uh, and, and that just, it makes me crazy. So, like what I used to do, the two things that have [00:05:00] worked, two things that have worked for me is to just grab a note card and write out my schedule in the morning. [00:05:07] Jeff: Um, sometimes then I never have to refer to it and I, and otherwise I have like a little reference card next to [00:05:12] Brett: just the act of writing embeds it better in your brain, [00:05:16] Jeff: Yeah. And then when I had jobs that were, when I’ve had jobs that were more. That lent themselves more to daily routines. Um, I, I would, I remember when I, I was a editor at Reader Magazine and I handled our website and I would just have a, a handwritten checklist that I photocopied that just had the things that I needed to, you know, uh, check or do that day and, and, and I could kind of look over a week’s worth of those and be able to see what I missed and what I did and whatever the , since we’re talking about it, the other thing that has worked really well for me, and maybe this is the other thing I need to do, is, I mean, I, what part of, I mean why, why what I’m describing can be so [00:06:00] bad? [00:06:00] Jeff: Is it. Is that I work with other people, right? Like there are people that are depending on hearing from me or, um, that I’m waiting on something from, or whatever it is. And I have found in my life that if I, if I forget to stay engaged with people, even just a back and forth, maybe by text or whatever it, people quickly fall into the background. [00:06:28] Jeff: Um, the world outside my four walls, this office I’m in now quickly falls into the background because I’m just. I’m just so focused on whatever’s right in front of me and sort of triaging or whatever else. Right. Um, but anyway, one thing I used to do, I used to have this, I should I say used to, I’ve actually probably brought it, uh, I, I’ve re I’ve resurrected it several times in life, a daily, um, template for, um, for kind of how to stay engaged. [00:06:59] Jeff: And [00:07:00] one of the things I would do every day is just I would list three people that it would be good if I got in contact with, whether it was an email or a text or a phone call or whatever, people that are waiting to hear from me. Right. Um, and if I didn’t have three people waiting to hear from me, maybe I had one waiting to hear from me, I’d, I’d pick two that I know it’d be good to be in touch [00:07:19] Brett: Is this both? Both professional and personal or one or [00:07:23] Jeff: Professional and personal, definitely. And then the next bit would be, um, who am I waiting for stuff from? Because that also just falls into the background after a while. And so anyway, I mean, I, you know, if, uh, if listening to this in the future because I am applying for a job, I’d just rather you just, you know, move forward to the next part of the podcast. [00:07:42] Jeff: But , like, cause this is my own business. Goddamnit , but I’m just in that space right now. And I’m, and the interesting thing is I’m also in a really productive space. So it’s not just like, I’m like, I have been in the past. I’m not just lost in the [00:08:00] wilderness of all the things. Right? Um, I’m actually getting a lot done, but it’s like, woo, it’s, uh, the brain. [00:08:07] Jeff: I need like a serious memory upgrade. I need like, uh, I think these new MacBooks. My new macro pro. I don’t think I met like 60 or something like that. That’s what I need No more of this 18, uh, gigabyte business [00:08:23] Brett: Yeah. [00:08:24] Jeff: anyway. [00:08:25] Brett: as you know, I’ve spent a good portion of my life developing tools to help me with exactly the stuff you’re talking about, and honestly, I’ve never found a perfect system that I stick with. Um, like OmniFocus is great if you get into a habit and you have a daily review and you’re actually curating. [00:08:46] Brett: Like if you just let let your inbox pile up and never file anything, it doesn’t do any good. And if you file, file everything, but don’t review it, it doesn’t do any good. Uh, because like the whole point is to get it out of [00:09:00] your head into someplace you trust, right? Like basic G T D stuff. Um, but if you. Get it out of your head and then forget about it, then you’ve actually done worse than just trying to remember everything you have to do. [00:09:15] Jeff: Yes, [00:09:17] Brett: well, I, so I guess this leads into my mental health corner. Um, I had a one day manic episode, uh, just a few days ago, and like I, I woke up at like 11:00 PM I went to bed at nine, woke up at 11. Just immediately knew I wasn’t gonna fall back asleep. Um, I stayed in bed for like three hours anyway, just completely awake. [00:09:46] Brett: Um, and when it eventually drove me nuts, I went downstairs and did my usual thing, started coding, uh, wrote, wrote a bunch of code, um, and then crashed like that during the day. The [00:10:00] next day I just, I could feel it, I could feel it end, and I slept for the next two nights. I slept great. Last night was a bit of a rough night, but not like a manic night. [00:10:10] Brett: Um, and. The thing is, without all the tools I’ve built, I would have no idea what happened that manic night like I do. I do not consciously remember because I had two really good nights of sleep. Um, it like cleared my brain of all the stuff I was obsessively working on. Um, and if it weren’t for like doing, which, uh, I have, I have it set up so that anytime I make a get commit, um, I have a, a default hook that gets initialized with any new Git repository. [00:10:44] Brett: So anytime I start a project, I initialize git repository and there’s a gi commit hook that once it saves the commit message, it adds it as an entry in my doing file. So simply by. Committing, [00:11:00] which is, you know, like I, I have a good habit of committing every change. Uh, simply by committing within a project, I create a, a record that I can easily, easily pull up and say, here’s what I was doing. [00:11:12] Brett: And when I realize I’m manic, I add a default tag to my config file. So anything that gets, anything that gets added to my doing file during that period gets a tag manic. Um, and then when it’s over, I remove that tag. And that means that I can just write doing show manic and it will show me everything that I did when I was manic. [00:11:39] Brett: And I can plot that out. I can use the timeline output and actually see like a, a JavaScript of like a view based time. [00:11:46] Jeff: Yeah. [00:11:47] Brett: my mania, and I can see exactly like when I was manic, what I accomplished while I was manic, how long it lasted. Uh, and this last one was less than 24 hours, which is just weird. [00:12:00] Like I’ve never had, never had a mania that lasted less than three days. [00:12:04] Brett: Um, and it, it hasn’t been followed by any major depression. I want to talk to my shrink about microdosing. [00:12:13] Jeff: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. [00:12:15] Brett: I’m, I’m really excited about the possibility, like I don’t know if there are drug interaction concerns, uh, with things like psilocybin and L s D, but from the results I’ve seen and I have friends, like I went to a , I went to a 70 year old trans woman’s poetry reading on Friday and no on Thursday night. [00:12:40] Brett: And, uh, The crowd was mostly also 70 year old people, and the guy who introduced her was like misgendered her left and right in his introduction. It was, it was very uncomfortable to be there. But I met up with a queer [00:13:00] studies professor. Um, and halfway through the thing she tells me, uh, that she’s on mushrooms. [00:13:06] Brett: Um, because she had been dealing with some major depression and a friend had, uh, convinced her to try microdosing. Um, and that night I think she might have macro dosed, but she said that, like she said, [00:13:22] Jeff: tried macro dosing [00:13:26] Brett: she, she said that like, just like tiny bits of a psilocybin. Um, did wonders to get her out of bed into the world. Um, feeling alert and, and bright-eyed and hopeful. And I like, cause we’ve talked many times about how I feel like my version of bipolar stable is actually leaning towards depression. Uh, like, like as long as I’m sleeping, I consider myself in good shape, but I also [00:14:00] do not enjoy life much during those periods. [00:14:03] Brett: Um, and I really, I think, and I can’t because of the bipolar, I can’t medicate the depression effectively. Uh, because any good antidepressant will just make me manic. Um, so I have to use these things like Lamictal that have antidepressant qualities. [00:14:24] Jeff: about that. Yeah. Yeah. [00:14:25] Brett: Like it has qualities, but it’s not an antidepressant. Um, and, and, and honestly, my A D H D meds increase dopamine, um, and, and make me and, and help with serotonin production. [00:14:40] Brett: So that aids a little bit, but once I’m depressed, it’s so weird when I’m manic one A D H D pill, uh, in my case, Vivance right now, um, will, it shoots me through the roof. I’m like just, just super focused coding, [00:15:00] writing, uh, like social, like it’s amazing what it does. And then when I’m depressed, it doesn’t do jack. [00:15:08] Brett: Like I can take it and I don’t even notice like a difference. [00:15:13] Jeff: It’s not like the classic up upper downer [00:15:15] Brett: Right. No, the depression can override the A D H D meds, which is, uh, it’s kind of frustrating, but, uh, anyway, yeah, I’m, I, I really wanna look into microdosing. I spent like a year of my life tripping balls. Um, got really into, uh, like D M X and acid and, uh, mushrooms and actually started dealing mushrooms. [00:15:41] Brett: Um, I had a dealer that would like front me a pound at a time, and I would just like sell it to college kids. Um, [00:15:49] Jeff: Like college kids where? [00:15:50] Brett: uh, m a [00:15:51] Jeff: Oh, mcad. The art school. Yeah. Right. [00:15:53] Brett: Yeah. And I was just tripping the whole time and got, I got really kind of good at [00:16:00] like, tripping and, and like maintaining a good trip and, and getting used to navigating the world. [00:16:08] Brett: In a hallucinogenic state, um, which isn’t because I could never smoke weed like I’m allergic to T h c. Um, so like I didn’t have a lot of experience with any kind of hallucinogenic until I get into that stuff. Um, but what I’m saying is microdosing, which is not, you know, you don’t trip you, you’re not like hallucinating. [00:16:33] Brett: I think I, I think I could navigate it. Fine. I think I’d be good at it. [00:16:37] Jeff: Yeah. I have the Michael Poll book sitting on my bookshelf about the various uses of psychedelics. Um, [00:16:46] Brett: What’s it called? I’ll add it to the show notes. [00:16:49] Jeff: Oh God, it’s, uh, I’ll have to, I’ll have to search it, but I, for some reason, this is one of the things, my brain is just not holding [00:16:56] Brett: I, I, I added a poorly spelled note to the show notes. You can flush [00:17:00] it out when you have time. Um, [00:17:02] Jeff: Um, you know, when you were talking about doing, um, I, which I’ve used, I mean, I love doing, like doing is one of the things, like I could tell you, I could sit down, I forget, tell you, I could sit down and, and map out the perfect system for me, right. Like, and the elements and the tools and everything. [00:17:20] Jeff: What’s too, what’s like, not too much and not too little and, you know, um, but my ability to stay with it is a whole different story. Anyway, I think two episodes ago, our first question, uh, our first big like question episode, right? You had asked about input devices, like the dream input device, and I, I said somehow it would involve drumming, and I realized that like what I, what I would love is like, To be able to, like my entry in doing would be triggered by like the end of a song drum thing, like, right. [00:17:53] Jeff: And then it pops up. It’s like, what were you doing? Oh, thanks for asking. I was just, you know, and I’m just finishing now. Thank you. And then I count it off. I [00:18:00] count off the next one. Right. Like, [00:18:02] Brett: Yeah. [00:18:04] Jeff: that would be perfect. Just perfect. But I wanna say that like, um, I, I’m in a stage of kind of being hard on myself about not being able to kind of hold with a system. [00:18:14] Jeff: But I remember, um, I had a therapist once and I was describing kind of this very thing where it’s like, I imagine I’m walking on a berm, you know, and it’s like I could fall down on either side. Um, I’ll walk on that berm for a couple weeks and then I’ll, I’ll trip and fall, right? And, and if I’m not doing well, I’ll just walk down where I fell. [00:18:34] Jeff: I won’t try to climb back up on the berm, right. But if I’m doing well, I’ll work to climb back on the berm. And I don’t know how long I’m gonna last up there, but like, at least I went back up and she, she kind of affirmed that, you know, what’s really important in this case is, you know, how to, she put it really nicely. [00:18:50] Jeff: You know how to call yourself back, essentially. And I, I, I find that I, I put emphasis when I’m, when I’m really conscious of it, which I will be, now that I’ve [00:19:00] said it here, I put emphasis on can I call myself back more than what have I sustained? Right? Um, and that seems to me far more. , um, realistic as a human being and, and as an expectation of myself as a human being. [00:19:17] Jeff: doing like knowledge work and all this other stuff. So anyway, I just wanted to add to that at the end little, so I’m not just being hard on myself. I forget to not be hard on myself. [00:19:26] Brett: Uh, doing was actually one of the things I worked on when I was manic. Um, so I have been in the habit recently of adding plugin architectures to all of my tools. Um, so they can be easily extended, uh, if, you know, whatever language I happen to have written it in. Um, it’s not like text mate where you can like write extensions in any language, but, but like doing, uh, with just some basic Ruby school skills, you can add new [00:20:00] features to it. [00:20:00] Brett: And, uh, someone asked me if they could output a view. By day where like everything was grouped by day in a table, um, and you could just like see kind of a calendar view of, of what you had done. And I was like, that is absolutely an export plugin. And uh, in about maybe 45 minutes, I wrote one page of code that now you can type dash o by day, uh, all one word by day, and it will, it’ll output an like a Nastys doc table of all of your, all of all. [00:20:39] Brett: So you can combine it with any command. So like doing today or doing since or or doing, show any command that has output, you can just add dash O by day and, and it’ll output in that day format. And it just like, I’ve really been appreciating this. This [00:21:00] focus on plugin architecture, because even if no commu, no community, like evolves around it, even if you don’t have like an obsidian or notion or text make kind of community making extensions for you, just from a code maintainability perspective, uh, the ability to add features that are optional and are completely modular, and I didn’t have to go in and edit any of the core code to do it. [00:21:30] Brett: I, I am, I, I I will moving forward. Always, always include a plug-in architecture, like marked kind of. You can use custom processors and you can write them in any language, but they’re, it’s also a little flaky. Like the best way to crash mark is to use a custom processor. Um, [00:21:49] Jeff: Is that what you wrote in your iTunes review? Unmarked [00:21:51] Brett: the best, the best and most consistent way to crash. [00:21:54] Brett: Mark is the fuck up your. Your custom processor. It, it is, it [00:22:00] is not graceful when things go wrong, and I’ve tried to fix that, but like the idea is there, it’s extensible. Like you don’t want to use multi markdown or GitHub flavored markdown, add your own processor and use whatever you want. Um, so this isn’t like a new concept to me, but it is definitely something I’m trying to make, like an elegant part of anything I code. [00:22:21] Brett: No. [00:22:21] Jeff: I love that. And it actually speaks to something I’ve been meaning to bring up with you on the podcast, which is that in the last couple of weeks I’ve moved back completely to Envy Ultra for, I was using obsidian for some things and whatever, and, um, I just, I find. Uh, I find that the closer I can feel to my actual text files , um, the more comfortable I am and obviously Envy Alt is and was that, and Envy Al Ultra is that as well. [00:22:52] Jeff: And what I had been doing was sort of using a single notes folder that Obsidian could act on and pull from. Right. [00:23:00] But also Envy Ultra. But I don’t, and this may just be, uh, like my own, like personality disorder or something, but like in the end, and you and I have talked about this when talking about sublime text versus vs code, like I find that I just feel more comfortable and, and I feel more of a flow when I feel super close to the text file itself. [00:23:25] Jeff: So like if you’re the type of person that’s going to even go in the direction of text files, right? Like why not stay as close to those files as you can? Um, [00:23:35] Brett: Well, the other, the other commonality there between sublime texts and uh, NV Ultra is, is operating system like being as close to the operating system as possible. Um, electron and obs, I mean, uh, obsidian and VS code are both electron and do not integrate fully with Mac os. Um, which is, [00:24:00] that’s for me, that’s why I prefer Sublime and NV Ultra, uh, just like right down to, uh, sublime less so than NV Ultra, but it uses real Mac OS components. [00:24:13] Brett: And you’re, you’re like directly interfaced with the operating system. [00:24:17] Jeff: And can you explain what electron is and why it doesn’t integrate fully with the operating system? [00:24:24] Brett: Electron is a, a layer, uh, it’s a web-based. Layer, um, where you’re basically, I think mostly in node js, uh, but they build their own components that run within kind of, you could consider electron like, uh, an operating system layer, um, that provides all of the interaction between the components and everything. [00:24:47] Brett: Uh, but they are not, a text field in Electron is actually a web field, um, like an H T M L field, not an os, like a Mac OS text [00:25:00] field. So things like system services are abstracted away from, from working the way they would in a cocoa text field, uh, and like an NS text field. Um, it’s, it, it provides a lot of flexibility, especially for developers who want to write cross-platform applications like an Electron app with very little effort can run on any operating system. [00:25:26] Jeff: and is that the primary attraction to it and the reason for its popularity? [00:25:31] Brett: For, yes, for among developers, yes. I mean, that is why you would make an Electron app is, is for cross platform availability. It also makes a lot of things easier. Like the, the things that VS Code can do, um, it can do more easily because of the electron kind of ecosystem around the functionality. Um, and what makes like VS code so popular is just the [00:26:00] sheer adaptation adoption, I mean, um, by users and the number of packages available and the amount of the extensibility of it. [00:26:10] Brett: Um, it is easily. Five times what, uh, sublime taxes ever had available. It’s insane what [00:26:19] Jeff: is [00:26:20] Brett: extend it to do, but I just run into enough friction when I try to use it the way I want to use my I D e I run into enough little, like not being able to run system services, like it’s a big deal for me. It seems like a small thing, but I kinda rely on, on, on the text navigation, the custom key bindings and the system services that I’m used to having in any cocoa text field on any app on my Mac. [00:26:49] Brett: And then suddenly they don’t work and it, it’s friction for me and it just sublime. Sublime has enough packages that do what I need to do. Um, I’m just [00:27:00] more comfortable in it. [00:27:01] Jeff: Well, and when I get really drawn into obsidian, it is because of. It’s not just that there’s the shared number of plugins. Cause it is pretty incredible. There’s a woman who keeps a, um, who keeps a weekly, uh, who runs a weekly newsletter that always lists like, what’s new, what’s in the approvals. You know, I’m always like Jesus Christ. [00:27:20] Jeff: Um, but I, I actually, the more, the more sort of plugin, the more plug-ins you have, the more plug-in like spam you have kind of, it’s, it’s like, and I forget this is what happened in obsidian. I was like, let me just really look at how I use obsidian. Do I really need obsidian for this? Because the other things I used to do, there are plug-ins to do this. [00:27:40] Jeff: There are other ways of doing this that make me feel a little closer to the note. And I don’t know if that’s just me being artisanal [00:27:46] Brett: the, the one thing obsidian does that I wish I could convince Fletcher to steal is backlinks. [00:27:53] Jeff: Yep. Back links are good, although I like ’em better in Rome, but [00:27:56] Brett: Sure. Like, like Envy Ultra [00:28:00] has wiki linking and you can, you can with auto completion add a Wiki link to another note. Uh, and it has somewhat of a back button feature. Like you can navigate backwards in history, so you can go back to the note you click from, but you can’t see what all notes link to your current note, and you can’t easily see any kind of graph of where the notes link together. [00:28:24] Brett: Um, and that is, that is the one thing about obsidian, like I’m. [00:28:28] Jeff: of fun. [00:28:29] Brett: I’m like you, I, I prefer Envy Ultra and just being very close to my text files and just basically it serves as an interface to raw text, and that’s what I love about it. Um, obsidian abstracts that by one layer, it’s still a, a, a bucket of raw text, but it has, the thing with extensions and plugins is it’s very easy for me to add too many and no longer know why something’s happening, which is what I [00:29:00] always run into in VS code. [00:29:01] Brett: The first thing I do is add, uh, you know, the recommended packages for say Ruby or Swift or Markdown. And, uh, I get a bunch of, a bunch of packages that I’ll provide different features and I no longer know. When I, when I experience a behavior, what caused it or why or where this keyboard shortcut is coming from, and I’ve never spent enough time with it to really get good at tracing that backwards. [00:29:30] Jeff: Well, and there’s a relationship in a way to, so like if, I mean, I know I don’t speak just for myself here, but what, what is so attractive about text files for me, besides the future proof aspect of them, um, is that I don’t get distracted with, um, formatting, which I am just prone to do. Um, and if you happen to just naturally think a textile in markdown format looks beautiful, then you are a lucky, lucky, wonderful person. [00:29:56] Jeff: And I am one of those people. And so for the same reason, [00:30:00] I don’t want to be in a bloat of formatting features. I don’t want to be in a bloat of plugins, you know, cuz that’s where I’ll go. Like, and, and with obsidian, some of those plugins, like the way you. Almost turn every sentence into a kind of data and then do data views. [00:30:18] Jeff: Like that is stuff that causes you to alter how your text files are written. And, and I, that has never been worth it in the end for me. And I, and I often am super suspect of, of people who do their initial few obsidian videos right on YouTube. I, I would love to know what it actually looks like for them a month later, two months later, a year later. [00:30:42] Jeff: It’s not, I’m not trying to be caddy, I just mean like, I wanna see the data generally, like how many people after they dive in and install their plugins and whatever, are still on the platform, right? Like, and, and with text files just used to something like Envy Ultra. That’s never something you would think about. [00:30:59] Jeff: It’s like, this is just where my [00:31:00] notes are, you know? I mean, the thing I think about most is how poorly I’ve labeled my notes over the years, [00:31:05] Brett: There. So I, I speak at, I speak at Max Sock pretty regularly. Um, not going to this year, but, um, There’s always at least one person that does a presentation on productivity, you know, of some kind. And one year it’ll be notion, and then one year it’ll be obsidian and like you’ll watch the same person do a deep dive on, on this new app that solves all the problems. [00:31:34] Jeff: Yeah. [00:31:35] Brett: the next year it’s something else. And the next year they’ve moved on. And, um, I think it’s really easy to get distracted by new shiny, um, and it’s really easy to recognize, to see the power in something, the possibilities, [00:31:49] Jeff: It’s exciting. [00:31:50] Brett: But, uh, when you really sit back and look at like, what’s the portability? If I use these new syntaxes and, and come to rely on this [00:32:00] data layer in this app, and then I wanna move to something else a year from now, uh, will all of this, will all of these systems that I built around it cease to function and it makes you, it makes you crave minimalism. [00:32:16] Brett: It makes you, it makes what’s, what’s the bare minimum syntax I can add to this to accomplish what I actually need without being lured in by like, oh, but I could get the, I could get this special view if I use this like very specific syntax, that would be impossible to rejects out later. [00:32:36] Jeff: Right, Yeah. And by red rejects out, you’re, you’re, you’re hitting the thing, right? It’s like, for me, if I go deep on something and change, essentially add a new syntax to my text files, it’s gonna be a year or two. But I’m gonna want to be writing a script that takes all that shit out, [00:32:53] Brett: Exactly. Exactly. [00:32:54] Jeff: and none of this is to like judge people who are excited about obsidian or anything. [00:32:57] Jeff: It’s just, it helps me to kind of [00:33:00] explore my own. Like, I just find it, I, I don’t know why, you know, those of us who have such an intense draw towards text files and markdown and that stuff, I, I would love to know what is going on there beyond what we’re able to articulate. Right? Like, cuz it’s a type of person, [00:33:18] Brett: Let, let, let me just, yeah. As a, as a, as a caveat, um, I, I think obsidian is amazing. I [00:33:26] Jeff: it is. [00:33:27] Brett: a really cool app with a lot of power, and even if you just used it at its bare minimum, um, it’s a great companion to Envy Ultra and potentially a complete replacement for NV Ultra. It’s a solid app. [00:33:39] Brett: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not dissing it. There are, there are a couple of friction points for me, but I don’t begrudge anybody their love of obsidian. It’s a solid app. [00:33:51] Jeff: Yep. My only issue with it is the way it changes how I behave and the way I behave because of it. It’s not, has nothing wrong with the app. I mean, it’s [00:34:00] cool and I actually love, I love communities that are just, just like popcorn popping plugins and, and ways to use it. I, I learned so much from that, but I just happen to be returning home right now. [00:34:14] Jeff: That’s where I’m at on my journey. [00:34:15] Brett: That’s actually, um, one of your, one of your interview questions that we may or may not get to was what was the first app or program that expanded your sense of what could be possible? And, and my answer to that would definitely feed into what we’re talking about right now, but I’m gonna take a quick sponsor break. [00:34:34] Jeff: Okay. Sounds good. [00:34:35] Sponsor: Kolide [00:34:35] Brett: Um, our sponsor Collide has some big news. If you’re an Okta user, they can get your entire fleet to 100% compliance. How you ask if a device isn’t compliant? The user can’t log into your cloud apps until they fix the problem. It’s that simple. Collide Patch is one of the major holes in zero trust architecture, device compliance. [00:34:58] Brett: Without collide, it [00:35:00] struggles to solve basic problems like keeping everyone’s OS and browser up to date. Unsecured devices are logging into your company’s apps because there’s nothing there to stop them. Collide is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance as part of authentication, and it’s built to work seamlessly with Okta. [00:35:17] Brett: The moment collides agent detects a problem, it alerts the user and gets some instructions to fix it. If they don’t fix the problem within a set time, they’re blocked. Collide method means fewer support tickets, less frustration, and most importantly, 100% fleet compliance. Visit collide.com/ Overtired to learn more or book or book a demo. [00:35:39] Brett: That’s K O L I D e.com/ Overtired. [00:35:45] Promo Swap: The Nerd Room [00:35:45] Jeff: Awesome. Awesome. Okay, I, I’ve got a podcast, uh, to talk about the nerd, the nerd room. Um, are you looking to get more out of your fandom experiences? Always. Uh, do you wish you had the time to keep up with all the [00:36:00] latest news and insights about your favorite film franchises? Generally, well then look no further than the Nerd Room Podcast, a weekly audio experience with deep dives into the latest news reviews and speculation from the worlds of Star Wars, Marvel, DC and beyond. [00:36:19] Jeff: Whether you’re a casual fan or a diehard enthusiast, the Nerd Room has something for everyone. Plug into the Nerd Room podcast every Thursday on all major podcast platforms, and let them bring the nerd to you. [00:36:32] Jeff: For more from the nerd room, head to the nerd room.net or use the hashtag hashtag We The nerd. Hashtag [00:36:42] Brett: Hashtag with a nerd. [00:36:44] Jeff: Yeah. [00:36:45] A sense of wonder… in an app [00:36:45] Brett: So, so do you want, do you wanna, do you want to dive into this question for a couple [00:36:50] Jeff: Yeah, let’s do it. [00:36:52] Brett: So the first app or program that expanded your sense of what could be, what can be possible or as a [00:37:00] user or a programmer? Uh, for me it’s both. It’s text mate. Um, so I, I, I didn’t start using a Mac until 2000. [00:37:11] Brett: Um, I was always a PC Linux guy up until that point. Um, and then OS 10 came out and, and I got into it and I started, I learned a little Apple script, like I’d been using VB script and, and I learned Pascal and c and stuff before that. But like, apples script was a, a new beast that allowed me direct. [00:37:32] Brett: Interaction with apps, and that was fun. Um, and then I, I, I heard about this text editor called Text Mate, and I downloaded it and I opened it up and it was like a blank screen with no buttons. And, and I didn’t, I didn’t know what to do and I quit it and went back to whatever editor I was using at the time and maybe BB edit and, and I didn’t think about it again for a few months. [00:37:57] Brett: Um, and then someone pointed out like [00:38:00] how to do a certain thing using a bundle in TechMate. The plug-in architecture was called Bundles. And so I loaded it back up and, and I opened the bundle editor and I began to immediately see, How extensible it was and how it could be crafted and, and like the lack of buttons became, it was the first time that I had had, uh, an editor of any kind without a toolbar. [00:38:26] Brett: Um, and cuz you know, I came from Windows in like Microsoft Word, uh, which is just overloaded with buttons. And, and I began to see the elegance of everything being keyboard based, everything being plugin based. Um, and that’s why I learned Ruby. Uh, my strongest language today is Ruby. And it is all because. [00:38:50] Brett: The easiest way to extend TechMate was with Ruby, and I learned Ruby specifically to extend TechMate. Um, Ellen Agard, the, the [00:39:00] creator of TechMate, ran a mailing list and was just super helpful to newbies like me, um, who I would ask the dumbest questions and he would gently explain like, well, here’s where you went wrong. [00:39:14] Brett: Here’s what you need to do, here’s how it would work. And, and he, he fostered the community, uh, which was very active, uh, for an app at the time. Uh, probably not to the extent that you see like obsidian and notion communities now, uh, but in its day, In the, in the early days of kind of extensible Mac software, uh, it was a, it was a vibrant community full of very helpful people. [00:39:41] Brett: And like the mailing list was like, it was like Usenet just full of ideas and, and helpful tips. And that was, to me, it’s still the gold standard. Like it, it was a Mac app that literally gained its popularity on the [00:40:00] basis of its extending extend ex the community that was extending the application. Like he built, he built something that was very much designed for community involvement and it became, it became, uh, uh, cult status really. [00:40:19] Brett: Um, if, if you, if you know, you know, like Text Mate was, was the original and yeah, it was fun to be a part of and it really opened my eyes. [00:40:30] Jeff: That’s awesome. I, I, that was my first text editor, text mate. Um, and I was not, uh, writing plugins or bundles, but I sure used a lot of them [00:40:40] Brett: Yeah. [00:40:41] Jeff: I wasn’t happy to have to leave it. What happened? What happened to it [00:40:46] Brett: Well, so Tate 2.0 was in Alpha for years and eventually he open sourced it and um, people got. Nervous because [00:41:00] it was never reaching a stable state. Um, and everyone just began to consider text mate kind of dead. Um, he did eventually release Text Mate 2.0, but at that point, at that point, like everyone had already started to move on and new editors had started to crap up and people’s loyalties, uh, had shifted. [00:41:22] Brett: And I mean, there are still people who use TechMate and, and it’s still a solid editor. Um, but, uh, the, the, the arena was rife for new competitors and, and some, some text editors really stepped up. I mean, BB edit is still like, man, rich has never dropped the ball like [00:41:44] Jeff: Oh, actually my first, my first text editor. What was the, what was the kind of light version of BB edit? Um, [00:41:52] Jeff: Was it Text Wrangler? [00:41:53] Brett: Yeah. [00:41:54] Jeff: Yeah, text Wrangler. That’s right, that’s right. Um, [00:41:58] Brett: scriptable [00:42:00] and just a good solid interface to the NS text field. [00:42:04] Jeff: yes, totally that my, um, my first job, uh, editing a website, uh, the person who had created the, the website, you know, was like, here’s, here’s what you need to do to every post in Text Wrangler. And that was my first experience of having a text editor and, and realizing that like, there are these things that can do these things to text that aren’t word. [00:42:25] Jeff: Um, don’t leave artifacts. [00:42:28] Brett: The, the strength of both Text Wrangler and BB edit. Um, aside from, you know, script ability, which is like, I find BB edit script ability, uh, being all Apple Script based, uh, to be a little bit confining for, for like string string manipulation in Apple Script is a bitch. Um, but, uh, their real shining strength was the size of text files they could open, um, and not, [00:43:00] and not freeze. [00:43:01] Brett: Like so many other text editors had this thing where if you opened a one megabyte text file, you were gonna crash it, or you were gonna spend a lot of time with a spinning beach ball waiting to scroll down a page. [00:43:14] Jeff: yeah. I’ve always got, um, I’ve always got BB edit in my bag because like I’ll often open up a text file, it turns out to be way too much for sublime to handle, and I open it up BB edit, bb it’s like, what do you wanna do? [00:43:26] Brett: Yep, [00:43:27] Jeff: Um, which is great. I think for me, my, the, the app I’m thinking I’m gonna speak as a Mac user and I, I started using Max in 2002 and, um, When I was pointed to Quicksilver, um, the first like launcher slash you know, you can make compound requests into this thing with a keyboard shortcut pops up. [00:43:53] Jeff: Um, just what I use Alfred for now, or what other people use Launch bar for and all that stuff. Um, when I [00:44:00] saw that there was a way to interact with apps and with files without having to be in a specific app or be looking at a specific file that. That was a paradigm shift for me, um, that I could actually operate my computer from this little line that pops up in a window rather than having to go in through nested folders or have to search through finder or have to, you know, all the different stuff it could do from how it interfaced with iTunes to how it interfaced with, you know, web browsers and, and, and search engines to how it interfaced with like, getting a file into an email, whatever. [00:44:37] Jeff: Like I had no idea. because I had never used the command line or anything like that either, right? So I had no idea you could act on your computer without using sort of the gooey [00:44:47] Brett: Mm-hmm. [00:44:48] Jeff: in front of you. And that was amazing. And the dude was super mysterious. Like, I don’t think people knew who he was back in the day they do now. [00:44:56] Jeff: Uh, I could be wrong, but like he was mysterious. The [00:45:00] icon was mysterious. Like everything about it was mysterious, including how it acted on my computer. So I just felt like I had something real special on my hands. Um, and of course, like when I think about using Alfred now, it’s like, it’s such a dominant part of my computing experience. [00:45:17] Jeff: Um, [00:45:18] Brett: Bar for me, but. [00:45:19] Jeff: we just, we can just take it for granted. But when that thing came out, it was just like, you do what now? [00:45:24] Brett: The, the only, the only reason I ever trigger Spotlight is to launch Launch Bar if it’s crashed. [00:45:31] Jeff: Exactly. Oh yeah. I remember sometimes when Alfred crashes, I’m like, fuck, what do I do now? [00:45:37] Brett: Yeah. [00:45:37] Jeff: I remember. [00:45:38] Brett: Yeah. No, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll use, uh, who to spot for all of my file searching and launch bar for all of my launching and file operations. Uh, Quicksilver was kind of in the same boat as text mate for me. Where it, it. [00:45:55] Jeff: had a lot of plugins too. [00:45:57] Brett: It was extensible and it, it [00:46:00] revealed a mode of operation that I never had in Windows. Um, there was no, there was no parallel for me in the, in the operating systems I was coming from. [00:46:12] Brett: And like, I immediately latched onto Spotlight. Uh, it was one of the, the first cool things about the Mac. Um, and Spotlight has come a long way, uh, with Siri integration and, and filed previews and drag and drop and everything. It’s come a long way since like os ten first came out. Uh, but Quicksilver, like Quicksilver was amazing. [00:46:36] Jeff: It was so amazing. It felt like having a superpower. [00:46:39] Brett: It did. And, and, and the likes of Merlin man. Uh, were all about it. And I, I think, I think I actually got into following Merlin man because of, uh, his, his Quicksilver, uh, Posts and there [00:46:57] Jeff: that in the 43 folders days? Yeah. [00:47:00] That’s how I learned about it too. And I didn’t know that was Merlin Mann. I didn’t know. I didn’t know from Merlin Mann, but I knew that site. [00:47:05] Brett: Do you remember quicks? It was a, a bookmarklet that you could write like extensions to do all kinds of stuff with webpages. I think I, I think I learned about that from Merlin too. Als I learned, I learned about GTD from Merlin. He was, the reason I bought getting things done by David Allen was, was, uh, was Merlin Mann [00:47:27] Jeff: It’s interesting. That was such a, I mean I guess it was such an exciting time because they had just left their old version of their O or operating system behind, and so it was just everybody playing. Like when did the first OS 10 or os OS nine is, is OS nine the end of the previous, [00:47:45] Brett: yeah. [00:47:45] Jeff: uh, operating system. [00:47:47] Jeff: Okay, so when was the first OS [00:47:49] Brett: I, I believe, I believe, uh, was it Tiger or Jaguar that came first. I think Tiger. I think Tiger was 2000, [00:47:59] Jeff: [00:48:00] Okay, got it. Got it. Back when you had to go get it in a box. [00:48:04] Brett: Yeah. [00:48:07] Jeff: Grandpa [00:48:08] Brett: Not, not, not a pile of three and a half inch floppy discs, but still in a box. [00:48:13] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. [00:48:16] Brett: It was in the, in the age of CD ROMs at that point. [00:48:19] Jeff: Oh, CD Rams. Man, what a mess. [00:48:22] Brett: I used to, I used to archive everything, um, like everything from my email to my project files and everything on Burnable, CDRs, [00:48:34] Jeff: Same. [00:48:35] Brett: and then eventually, as, as D V D Rs became available, I started writing, but I just had you remember those like books of CDs like that you could get in, like in [00:48:49] Jeff: have one. I have one in my basement full of backup CDs. [00:48:52] Brett: Yeah, I have like dated books and like I, I had to create, I found apps that would [00:49:00] create indexes, searchable indexes of like a 12 CD set [00:49:06] Jeff: Oh, that’s [00:49:07] Brett: and then you could pop in one CD and use it to figure out which CD you needed to load. Um, but it was, it was a kind of messy system compared to the way I archived these days, but, [00:49:19] Jeff: It was totally messy. It was totally messy. Like, I remember having to, like, if I was, if I was backing up my iTunes library, I would’ve to do it across like 10 CDs, right? Or my, or my photos library or whatever it was. So I actually, a, a couple years ago, worrying that I maybe had lost some of those early files, decided I was gonna put my, I had, uh, I had all my backup CDs in like, you know, the cd like Tube , that CDs came in. [00:49:47] Jeff: Um, I, I kept them all in there, but then I was like, nah, I don’t like that. Cause I wanna make sure they’re, you know, they’re probably gonna last a good long while. [00:49:53] Brett: you want ’em in archival quality sleeves. [00:49:56] Jeff: So I got the big kind of book, you know, it’s like square and it’s [00:50:00] got four per page or whatever, and I put ’em all in and I took a paint marker and I labeled each slot and then I brought each one in and, and, and put it in a folder with the name of the, of the slot, um, as the first step. And then I went and organized the files. [00:50:16] Jeff: But it was delightful. I, it was cool, man. I, they all worked. I think there was maybe one that was not working and that’s basically true of my three and a half inch disc too, which [00:50:26] Brett: I love, I love, I love collecting, I love developing systems to maintain a collection That’s like a fetish for me, [00:50:34] Jeff: totally man. Yeah, [00:50:36] Brett: ever since, ever since my early days of rock collecting. Like I just love coming up with cataloging systems [00:50:42] Jeff: It’s the best. [00:50:43] Brett: yeah. [00:50:44] Grapptitude [00:50:44] Jeff: It’s the best. Well, I think we, this is a good flow into gratitude, even though it’s Ben gratitude [00:50:50] Brett: yeah, [00:50:52] Jeff: You wanna, you wanna give yours [00:50:54] Brett: sure. Um, my pick this week is reject rx, [00:51:00] um, or as, as Jeff used to say, it rejects Rx [00:51:04] Jeff: When we first started working together That’s right. I was like, it’s. [00:51:10] Brett: Um, and, and, no, I don’t care if you say RegX or RegX. Uh, this isn’t a gift gif problem. Um, but it is a, it’s, there are a bunch of regular expression testers out there, patterns and oyster and, uh, there are websites designed for testing regular expressions. But I find rejects rx, despite it being like ugly, like Java app, ugly, um, it is the most effective. [00:51:40] Brett: It handles the most different variants of. Regular expressions, um, because there are different, there are different standards that handle different, like character sets differently and everything. And it has this amazing feature where you can paste from and two different [00:52:00] languages. So if you have, if you’re working in JavaScript and you copy out your regular expression from your text editor and you use Paste as JavaScript, it will convert it into a more standard P C R E regular expression in the field. [00:52:17] Brett: And then when you’re done testing and editing, you can do copy, copy, special, uh, JavaScript, and you can do it as a. Pattern or it can give you the full code for like, uh, a replacement and, and copy it right back into your editor. Um, it can do objective C, it can do uh, Java. It can do java script, it can do ruby, um, Python. [00:52:44] Brett: Uh, it can create the code you need to turn a regular expression into, um, code you can use. And then as you, you give it like your test string and then you start working on your expression and it shows you like [00:53:00] all of, all of the captures and individual capture groups, um, either named or numbered, depending on how you write your regular expression. [00:53:08] Brett: And it is just like the most complete, most usable, regular expression tester for me. I don’t remember how much it costs, but I do think it’s available on the app store. I’m gonna look that up. [00:53:20] Jeff: That’s awesome. Sounds great. I wanna play with it. I love rejects apps. [00:53:26] Brett: Who doesn’t [00:53:27] Brett: 4 99? It’s 4 99. [00:53:30] Jeff: Oh, it’s a sweet price. [00:53:31] Brett: Yeah. Damn. Good deal. [00:53:33] Jeff: Can I, um, so I have an app to talk about, but I also have, um, the theme is file navigation. Um, but I wanna recommend something a little life hack. So I’ve been going through, like I said at the beginning, like all these files from a five year project, um, which are sometimes mixed in with personal files a little bit, right? [00:53:52] Jeff: And I have all these screenshots, like eight fucking million screenshots. And I finally realized what I can do is [00:54:00] I’ll just make a dedicated eye photos library, dump them all in there. I’ll be able to get rid of duplicates, and I can just quick browse them all, um, and, and decide what I want or just let it be. [00:54:11] Jeff: And I really wanna recommend that It was a, it was actually really fun. I ended up discovering things that I’m really glad I made screen grabs of. Um, but anyway, so. A few or several or maybe a dozen or more episodes ago, you and I were talking about forklift versus Pathfinder and we had both fallen on the forklift side. [00:54:32] Jeff: And I had told you, I go back and forth and I feel like that’ll happen forever. And I have, um, I have gone forth , um, or back to Pathfinder because I’ve been doing a ton of working with files and, and old archives and stuff of files. And you know what, it’s my current favorite. It, it, it is a little more. So what I found with forklift is when I started getting really, like spending a lot of time in the app, looking at files, comparing files, whatever else [00:55:00] that like it. [00:55:01] Jeff: It was a little rigid for me, but Pathfinder, I don’t even use most of their, what do they call ’em? Like buttons or whatever. They have these like, almost like [00:55:09] Brett: Uh, widgets or, [00:55:10] Jeff: widgets or something. I don’t really use any of them, but I find that the way I can manipulate the finder environment inside a Pathfinder is, is just, it is, I guess what I need. [00:55:20] Jeff: So I’ll let you know when I go back to forklift, but my gratitude today is, is Pathfinder, which like, you know, that’s it, it’s a big deal to have like a, a more powerful finder app that keeps getting better or stays alive at all. And, uh, and I, I just want to give props to the developers for that cuz they really keep it moving. [00:55:42] Jeff: Um, and, and now I’m back in it. So. Hi Forklift. Forklift. I love you too though. That’s all I got. [00:55:49] Brett: so in a part that has since been edited out previously, we, we did, we did mention pop clip. Um, and I, I wanted to tell you, [00:56:00] so a lot of the pop clip extensions I’ve written, and I have a whole collection, uh, linking pop clip extensions in the show notes. Um, um, so I have a whole bunch, but a lot of them use modifier keys to provide multiple actions. [00:56:19] Brett: Like there’s a, a critic markup, Uh, extension that gives you like insert, delete, uh, comment highlight depending on which modifier key you hold down, when you trigger it. [00:56:32] Jeff: I didn’t realize that. [00:56:33] Brett: But it’s too much to remember and it drives me nuts because, uh, even having one alternate action, like, uh, the numbered list, um, extension does mark down numbered list cleanup and can convert like a bullet list to a numbered list, et cetera. [00:56:50] Brett: And if you hold down option, it gives you a bullet list instead of a number list, and it’ll convert. Um, that one’s easy enough to remember, but you get these ones with multiple [00:57:00] modifier keys. It’s impossible to remember unless you’re using ’em every day. And, um, in a recent update to pop clip I’ve forgotten the Nick, had added this thing where holding down option key, like always gave you like a preview of the text and holding down shift, copied it to the clipboard, [00:57:22] Jeff: did not know any of this. [00:57:24] Brett: overriding all of my custom modifier keys. So there, there’s a defaults command listed on the, on my webpage. [00:57:32] Brett: You can run defaults, right? And, and override these new modifier key behaviors. But the here, and here’s why I bring it up, is he has plans for, um, kind of like sub menus. So you trigger a pop clip extension, and then the bar changes to offer you. Multiple options, which to me is ideal, especially if there are [00:57:56] Jeff: Oh my God. Totally. Yeah. [00:57:58] Brett: way better than [00:58:00] trying to remember what modifier does what. So I’m excited to see the future of pop clip and that once, once, once that system is, finalized and out, I will definitely make pop clip a new, pick of the week here. [00:58:13] Jeff: Love it. Love it. [00:58:15] Brett: All right. Well, I barely missed Christina. [00:58:20] Jeff: I missed her terribly [00:58:21] Brett: Yeah, no, I was lying. I did too. [00:58:24] Jeff: No, this was fun. This was [00:58:25] Brett: She’s, she’s a, she, she brings, she brings an element to this show that, uh, definitely is it, it’s sorely lacking when she’s not here. Um, I don’t know if that’s true for me. I know it’s true for you. You bring like [00:58:40] Jeff: for everybody. [00:58:41] Brett: you bring like an anchor to this show that when it’s just Christina and me, things can get a little off the rails. [00:58:48] Brett: Um, , I think when it’s just you and me, it’s, it’s got a lot. It’s, uh, it’s got some male energy to it, [00:58:55] Jeff: Yep. Yeah. That’s bound to happen. [00:58:59] Brett: [00:59:00] All right. Well Jeff, thanks for being here. Get some sleep. [00:59:04] Jeff: Yeah. Get some sleep.