The Messy City Podcast

About a month ago, Strong Towns released this fantastic video on South Bend, Indiana that’s gone a bit viral within the planning and development world. I personally wish it would go viral to an enormous audience. It’s a remarkable story, and they called it, “Can American Cities Save Themselves? This One Thinks So.”One of the protagonists in this story is Mike Keen, a retired professor who lives in South Bend. Mike joins me in this episode to dive deeper into how this all came together, and how he went from someone knowing nothing about business to one of the lead “conductors” in the symphony of small developers doing amazing work in South Bend.This is real, difficult work. South Bend is not a sexy place like Austin, Nashville, or any other booming city. But it’s clearly a place that the people who live there love and care about, and are giving it renewed life. Through partnerships with Incremental Development Alliance, Neighborhood Evolution and with thoughtful local leadership, this community has changed its course. What’s striking to me is that this particular story about South Bend is one that could be told hundreds of times over, for towns and cities of all sizes in the Midwest and Rust Belt. It’s about how people can recreate local economies, take ownership themselves, heal the scars of the past and help people find meaning in their lives. I find it absolutely inspiring.One minor tangent - we talk a little bit about the idea of pre-approved building plans in this episode. Apologies to my friend Jen Griffin, who’s name I botched. But Jen and her friend and colleague Jen Settle have done some pioneering, ground-breaking work on this idea. I’ll explore that more in future podcasts.Key links:The Natural StepFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

During the course of this interview, I jokingly called Butch Rigby the George Bailey of Kansas City. But the more I reflect on this, the more true it rings. Butch talks about how he started with nothing, got his hands dirty for years, and slowly but doggedly created a successful development business. And, how he did it almost exclusively by working with small, local businesses. There’s so much to learn here, and if I had the power, I’d have every 20-something that’s looking for something meaningful to do in life to listen to this episode. I wish I could go back in time and make the 20-something version of me listen to it. Butch shares an awful lot of pearls of wisdom, born from deep experience over four decades of work. When you talk with Butch, you also can’t help talking about the movies, since he has such a deep passion for film. But unlike most people who have passions, Butch actually found a way to marry his with another interest - beautiful, old buildings and how to make them viable again. We talk a lot about Film Row in Kansas City in this piece, and here’s a link to some more information on the history.This is about the long, slow and patient process to improving your community and ultimately achieving success. It’s about remaining positive and optimistic in the face of difficulties. And it’s about how to use your creativity, wherever it comes from, as an advantage.Key links:Brookside East, Butch’s primary area of emphasis nowScreenland ArmourFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

“People travel thousands of miles to go on outdoor adventures, but you can do all that right here on the Mississippi.”The great river through the middle of the country is so many things to so many people. It’s a transportation lifeline, a natural wonder, a deep connection to the human spirit, and the birthplace of countless cities and towns.Dean Klinkenberg, who happens to be my older brother, has spent all his adult life living along the river, studying it, exploring it, and thinking about how to make it more accessible and healthier for all. He’s written numerous books with the river as the star, and now has his own podcast. All of it can be found from his website - the Mississippi Valley Traveler.What’s even more interesting is how our interests overlap when it comes to thinking about cities, towns, nature and the middle of the country. In this podcast, Dean talks about a possible vision of holistic river management. It sounds an awful lot like how I think about the places humans inhabit - how we’ve applied reductionist, narrow approaches for about a century that haven’t exactly worked out so well. And now, how we need a more holistic approach to life in our places. There’s been some overlap in the world of environmental science to this line of thinking for years, but we too often still think of our rivers as just simplistic navigation channels. Welcome to the podcast my mother has been waiting for. I hope you enjoy it as well.The future is holistic!Key links:Trempealeau National Wildlife RefugePoverty Point World Heritage SiteCahokia MoundsFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Howard Blackson is the Howard Roark to my Peter Keating. He’s the oil to my water. Well, alright, maybe not so much. But we have sparred from time to time over American city grids, and urban design issues that all of about 100 people get really into. Beyond that, he’s a passionate San Diegan, and a very accomplished planner and designer.We finally had a chance to do a podcast together, and soldiered through some rough tech issues. Forgive any bumps.Yes, we talk some about grids, about the US West and the Laws of the Indies. But we spend more time talking about Howard’s intriguing concept of the Next Urbanism, which he outlines in this presentation below.Key links:Howard’s personal websiteJonathan Segal’s website (Architect as Developer)Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Marina Khoury is easily one of the most accomplished people in the world of urban design and planning that you probably don’t know. From Lebanon to Paris to Wisconsin and ultimately to work at DPZ CoDesign, Marina’s career has spanned a remarkable amount of work and experiences. The Miami21 zoning code alone is a heroic effort, worthy of great study for large cities nationwide. We trace Marina’s wide array of work in architecture, urban design and writing codes.Key links:Marina’s LinkedIn profileDPZ WebsiteThe Kentlands Citizens AssemblyMiami 21 zoning codeNew Town St CharlesFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Not to be redundant, but Arti Harchekar is a joy to talk with. The author of the unique and fascinating blog, Joyful Urbanist, Arti has moved from planning to design to now the tech world, but always explores her interest in cities, towns and how places make us feel. I knew early on that Arti would do really great things, and it wouldn’t surprise me if one day much more of the world knows her and enjoys her writing.In her writing, Arti likes to talk about our emotional connections to place. She likes to talk about mental health, while openly and bravely describing her own struggles and journey. “Why do we form attachments to these places?” “What if we focus more on how we make people feel?” “Why don’t more planners and designers focus on the human connections?”Arti wisely describes Joy as an intense momentary feeling of happiness. And that happiness is a culmination of these moments of joy.I really, really enjoyed talking with Arti, and hope you enjoy this very different take on the world of cities, planning, design and architecture.A few key links:Her current company – Remix by ViaThis conversation again reminded me of this post by Andy Boneau – ”How New Urbanism saved my life”And I also thought I should share stories of other people living unconventional lives overseas.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

At the CNU31 and Strong Towns National Gathering confabs this year, I heard a lot of language that would put planners and designers in a very small minority outside the walls of the conference center. I get it - it’s a niche audience. It exists to critique American cities and towns, and make them better. A fair amount of what happens is venting. But an awful lot of what I increasingly hear simply condescends towards what normal Americans value and choose in large numbers. We can do better by our cities and towns, without wishing for a revolution (which will never happen) that completely upends our built environment and culture of property ownership. More importantly, if we want to have success in making our places stronger, more walkable, more bike-friendly, etc, we must work within the context we have. By the way, it’s not so bad, so lighten up a little bit.In addition to this short rant, I recap other aspects of the combined conference in Charlotte. And I ask the question, is CNU at an end? All the various offshoots - including NTBA, FBCI, National Charrette Institute, Strong Towns, IncDev, The Urban Guild - all seem to have much more energy.Finally, I give a short version of my session on AI, which I delivered at the conference. Yes, I think AI will have remarkable and yuuuge effects on the built environment and all the professions that work with it. Short version: the 20th century commute-to-the-office economy is over. Buckle up, as I read into my crystal ball.As always, please give me your feedback.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

John Anderson was one of the first people I got to know when I was a young pup architect trying to get involved with New Urbanism. I did my first design charrette with John and others in 1999, in Truckee, CA. We subsequently worked together many times over the years, in both planning and architecture work. I’ve seen John rise to being a minor celebrity in this world, and see him inspire countless others to try your hand in this strange professional (if you can call it that) endeavor.We’ve agreed, disagreed and debated a lot over the years. We continue to do so. But something about our shared Midwestern background has kept us united in looking for practical approaches to better communities and better buildings.John and I cover a lot of ground in this, from his most unusual journey to the work he does, to many hard lessons learned along the way, and how to help younger people get involved with small-scale, incremental development. John was a co-founder of Incremental Development Alliance, and we talk about how that came to be.John is best found on Facebook these days, and especially his fantastic group called Neighborhood Development. We talk a bit about this blog post I wrote years ago, calling for 10,000 new developers. And though we didn’t mention it, here’s John’s own blog.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Ali Quinlan is easily one of the most impressive people I’ve ever talked with, and makes me feel like I’m not doing nearly enough with my time. She’ll almost certainly have the same impact on you.In this second discussion at CNU31, Ali talks about her path becoming an architect, landscape architect, business owner, and developer. And she talks about how to balance it all while being a single Mom of small children. Ali has some incredible insights into managing her priorities and time, as well as the business side of being in the design professions.And a first for me: in this emotional discussion, Ali becomes my first guest to come to tears. Trust me, it’s worth an hour of your time to hear Ali’s story, and what she’s learned.Ali’s company is Flintlock Lab in Fayetteville, Arkansas.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

This is the first of three conversations I recorded at CNU31 in Charlotte in late May/early June. I’ll roll the rest out in coming weeks - each was VERY different, but thoroughly enjoyable. Here’s a tease: I had my first guest cry on-air.Andy Boneau is just a really fun and interesting person to talk with. Part engineer, part planner, part marketing and messaging expert, and now a documentary filmmaker - Andy writes the can’t-miss Substack Urbanism Speakeasy. Andy is funny, self-deprecating, but also profound. If you are someone that thinks at all about issues related to planning, street design and cities, AND cares about messaging, this is a must-listen.Of course, Andy is also another Gen X’er, and it makes me wonder, should I just do a Gen X podcast? Send me your thoughts.Here’s a few other links:Post – New Urbanism Saved My LifeLink to the Seed and Spark funding page for “White Collar Epidemic: Infrastructure is Crumbling our Minds and Bodies”Why We Buy, by Paco UnderhillFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe