The Messy City Podcast

Paul Knight, a planner with the design firm Historical Concepts, can give you a dozen reasons for just about anything. More importantly, he can give you reasons for brushing up on the lectures of former Georgia Tech professor Douglas Allen. Allen was a giant in the field of urban planning, and fortunately some of his former students and colleagues have carried on his work following his passing. Paul is one of them, helping form the Douglas Allen Institute.This may all sound very academic, and I know I often take shots at academia. But, when it works well, it’s amazing the impact one really great professor can have on so many people. I wanted to talk with Doug, because I know just how brilliant the man was, and how it’s even better that his work will live on for future generations. For example, the Institute was able to videotape his lectures from his “History of Urban Form” course, and they’ve made them available for free on YouTube. If you’re at all interested in the history of cities and towns, I couldn’t recommend something more highly.Several years ago, Paul also opened my eyes to the whole rabbit hole of base 12 versus base 10 measurements. I’m now a firm believer in base 12. In this episode, Paul even lets me know there’s a Dozenal Society. I should’ve guessed, but had no idea.Since we made a few minor errors in the podcast, here are the official corrections:* In regards to the “Jeffersonian” grid, and what it really should be called, here’s what Allen had in his lecture notes: “Congress formed a committee originally chaired by Thomas Jefferson, but  eventually by Hugh Williamson of North Carolina. Jefferson had proposed ten states and  a measurement system of his own invention based on the nautical mile. After Jefferson was called away to Paris, Williamson’s committee adopted the Gunter Chain and the system of feet and inches that are in use today.”* I was trying to think of the “4 rod Main Street,” which is a historic pattern throughout much of the United Kingdom and the US. The rod is 16.5 feet, and the four rod street was thus 66 feet wide. 66 feet is also one chain.* The reason a mile is 5,280 feet is that it’s exactly 320 rods.* The book I couldn’t remember was “Measuring America: How the United States was Shaped by the Greatest Land Sale in History.”Please look at the work of the Douglas Allen Institute, and the Urban Form Standard that Paul mentions. It’s really pretty terrific work.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Philip Bess joins me this week in a wide-ranging conversation about architecture, academia, and baseball. It’s not the first time we’ve shared such a bizarre collection of topics. We didn’t even get into localism, subsidiarity, and Georgism. We’ll save that for next time, I suppose.Mr. Bess is retiring from a career in academia, at Andrews University and Notre Dame University. I also had one of my very first design charrette experiences with Phil, back in 1999 in Ada, Michigan. We talk about his experience in academia as someone with a fondness for traditional architecture and urban design (hint: it’s not always popular), and we also mention the origin of the infamous “Dogbark Plan.”If you take anything away from this, understand the historical importance of the Fenway 7, and Philip’s little book called “City Baseball Magic.” It’s a gem that describes an alternate reality for (old?) New Comiskey Park in Chicago, and laid the groundwork for all of us ending up in Boston in the Summer of 2000 to help two local non-profits trying to save their beloved historic ballpark.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Somehow it’s fitting that his name is Clay. Yet, he’s more than just a brick mason. Clay Chapman is part artist, part philosopher, and part builder. His new buildings have captured the attention and imaginations of everyone who’s seen them. I joke with him that at every conference session I’ve seen, he’s the most popular presenter. But it’s no joke; people are enthralled by his newly constructed homes.Clay talks about how he became the country’s most famous bricklayer (ok, that’s my moniker for him), and the ins and outs of building new homes with structural masonry. We talk about the difference between brick veneer and structural masonry, some of the details, and how this type of work can scale.Clay now mostly works at Carlton Landing, a new development on Lake Eufaula in Oklahoma. He’s trained a number of people that are doing similar work, including Austin Tunnell of Building Culture, in Oklahoma City.If you go see any new construction this year, go see these buildings. Take a trip to Oklahoma, you won’t regret it.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today, I discuss three chapters of issues that are tied together by the place-making triumvirate of design, policy and management. First, I revisit the International Downtown Association (IDA) annual conference, and the importance of place management organizations. Very quietly, these types of groups are stepping up to better manage public space in neighborhoods all over the country. It’s a great thing. Second, I dig deeper into the issues facing many schools and getting kids to schools on buses. I ask, is this yet another example of how we seem to be drifting fitfully back toward 1910? What do you think? Is there a solution to the bussing dilemma? Can we afford to keep operating a system just for children? Are there other things you see, that feel like harkening back to a previous era of civilization?Finally, why do our thoughts on economic development in rural areas continue to just be nothing more than warmed-up leftovers from a previous era? Do we have the capacity to critically examine systems that haven’t worked, abandon them and start over? Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I’ve long said it’s incredibly unfortunate we have such negative caricatures of real estate developers. Perhaps this is a sad legacy of the movie “Caddyshack.” Or, perhaps it’s the relentless wave of cherry-picked stories that dominate our media narratives.All the while, we have people like Diane Botwin, who just go about their lives and days creating wonderful projects, partnerships and good deeds for human beings. Why isn’t she our picture of a developer? In this episode, we trace Diane’s path from musician to attorney to developer. You may even notice she’s managing a construction project in the background during the interview. We also talk a bit about WIRED KC, or Women in Real Estate Development. It’s an incredible story, worthy of a whole episode.Diane is the owner of Botwin Commercial Development in Kansas City. I’m also fortunate to be partnered with her and Andrew Ganahl on an infill development here as a small part of AND Real Estate. We are building ten townhomes and ten apartments in the wonderful Columbus Park neighborhood.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

In the very small world of people working on the concept of pre-approved building plans for infill development, Jennifer Griffin and Jennifer Settle have been pioneers. “The Jennifers,” as a few of us jokingly call them (I’ll have a future episode with “The Matts”) meet with me to discuss their work in South Bend, and their own journeys as entrepreneurs in the world of urban design and architecture.Jen Griffin runs her own firm in Tulsa, OK called J Griffin Design.Jen Settle now works with Opticos Design, in their Chicago office.They both have worked extensively in a volunteer and partnership capacity with the Incremental Development Alliance and Neighborhood Evolution.For more detailed information on the work in South Bend, click here.As a side note, for anyone interested in more discussion on entrepreneurship while being a Mom, check out this episode with Alli Quinlan.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.David Sucher’s 1995 classic, City Comforts is a book I have long recommended to anyone with an interest in cities, design and planning. In a way, the book really hit the cultural mark in that era. It was set in Seattle, which was the locus for 1990s culture, especially musical culture. You could almost pair up the book with the 1990s movie, “Singles,” for a sense of what was happening broadly with the American zeitgeist, and perhaps Douglas Coupland’s novel Microserfs. David’s book was eminently practical, with not a smidge of utopian thinking. It’s written and told by someone who sees problems to be solved at the micro scale, and solutions that can be had. It’s written in a series of very short vignettes. It’s written with an obvious love and care for humans, and for the cities they inhabit. And while it clearly derives from the era, it could be re-published today with very few changes and having similar relevance. In fact, that’s something David and I discuss.Here’s a few links we discuss:David’s “3 Rules for a Walkable Neighborhood”Allowing One Triplex per BlockOn the proposed gondola for Little Cottonwood CanyonFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

What exactly do “place management” organizations do, and where can they be most effective? I share my thoughts after leading Midtown KC Now for almost four years, and I see our role. Here’s a tease: I think the role of these sorts of organizations is incredibly important for the success of communities, and I fully expect this role to grow in the future. This is the kind of locally-based, micro-scale work that truly makes a difference.In the intro, I also reference former Charleston, SC Mayor Joe Riley. There’s many clips you can find of Riley on-line, but here’s a short one:I also discuss why I believe we need to have a growth mindset for the urban core of Kansas City. Here’s a few charts that I use to help explain this position:Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Jason Segedy has served in public service in Akron, Ohio for over 25 years. He’s been a leader at an MPO, and also the Planning Director in the city where he was born and raised. It’s safe to say that Jason has a lot of love for his hometown of Akron, Ohio.I began following Jason on social media, mostly Twitter, several years ago. I found him instantly to be one of the most thoughtful, provocative and insightful people on that forum. He’s a big thinker, but also eminently practical and funny. He cares deeply about his place, but he also knows there’s more to life than the simple pursuit of urban planning. In fact, that knowledge and sense of priorities has colored his on-again, off-again relationship with social media. That’s something we discuss in detail.Jason’s also a fabulous long-form writer, and I hope he takes it up again soon. Here’s his Tumblr blog, “Notes from the Underground.” Please take a moment and give this podcast a review on your favorite podcast platform.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Steve Garrett has a delightful podcast called Within the Realm, where he tells short stories of people and places in the world he knows best. He’s also a former City Manager, and a recent devotee to the world of Strong Towns. He joins me to talk about how people like himself and others that aren’t so versed in the world of city-making can find ways to improve their own little corner of the world. We hit on big and small change, successes and failures and the different roles we can all play.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe