Agile and Project Management - DrunkenPM Radio

In each of my CSM and CSPO classes someone asks “Should I still get PMP?” In this podcast I got the chance to check in with Jesse Fewell on the value of certification. Jesse and I have been friends since 2008 when we both started working on trying to find ways to get PMI to pay attention to Agile. We both come from a traditional background, have been heavily involved with PMI and now make a living teaching Scrum certification classes. Jesse and I debate the answer to the PMP certification question and along the way, discuss our differing views on the value of PMI-ACP, CSM and CSPO certifications. These are things we don’t always see eye to eye on, so regardless of your viewpoint, there is sure to be something in here to help you see things from a different perspective. We also have a brief conversation about what do to about PMO’s in Agile organizations. Note: You may hear some odd background noise. This time it isn't me slurping coffee … #blamethefidgittoys Show Notes 00:08 Podcast Starts 00:34 An update on Jesse’s recent and upcoming Agile PMO sessions, VirtuallyAgile.com and his Certified Agile Leadership Training classes 07:53 Does PMP Certification still matter? And if you are working in Agile, do you still need it? 09:57 If you are a traditional PM, are you in danger of becoming unemployable if you do not have agile? 11:50 Can a traditional PM avoid the trap of thinking they “get” Agile before they actually do? 14:26 Jesse’s involvement with PMI-ACP, it’s evolution and current relevance 16:20 What can you expect of someone who has PMP or PMI-ACP Certification? 18:10 PMI and Agile Alliance collaboration and what we can expect to see from it 20:10 PMI is working with the Agile Alliance… “It’s like the X-Men and the Justice League tried to plan something together” 21:10 “Everyone has the same mission - improve outcomes and people doing their job well” 21:43 It’s not a “standard”, it’s a “guide” 22:07 How much Agile will be in the new (6th) edition of the PMBOK? 23:00 For the skeptics… there is good on both sides of PMI and the Agile Alliance working together 24:30 Understanding the distinction between the work done by PMI and the Agile Alliance (stabilize and align vs. disrupt) 26:42 Will there be a new Agile certification coming from PMI? 29:26 If you know a PMP trying to decide between taking a CSM or a PMI-ACP course and they need advice on what to take 32:42 Dave and Jesse debate whether getting PMP is still valuable for a CSM or CSPO 36:17 “Most Agile people are punching above their weight…” 39:18 What do we do about the PMO if our organization is adopting Agile? 44:22 Want more Jesse? Here is how to get it…. 45:02 Interview Ends Links Referenced in the Podcast The Hybrid PMO (part of Seminars World) http://bit.ly/2tbOvM5 Solving the PMO Paradox (at Agile 2017) http://bit.ly/2sJ8wJj Certifications and Agile Organizations Mentioned in the Podcast PMP Certification http://bit.ly/29NtawC PMI-ACP Certification https://www.pmi.org/certifications/types/agile-acp CSM Certification http://bit.ly/ZtotC1 CSPO Certification http://bit.ly/1HeXnC5 Certified Agile Leadership Certification https://www.scrumalliance.org/agile-leadership Agile Alliance: https://www.agilealliance.org Scrum Alliance: https://www.scrumalliance.org PMI: https://www.pmi.org/ IC Agile: https://icagile.com Contacting Jesse Website: http://www.jessefewell.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/jessefewell LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessefewell/ Contacting Dave Website: https://drunkenpm.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/mrsungo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrsungo/

In each of my CSM and CSPO classes someone asks “Should I still get PMP?” In this podcast I got the chance to check in with Jesse Fewell on the value of certification. Jesse and I have been friends since 2008 when we both started working on trying to find ways to get PMI to pay attention to Agile. We both come from a traditional background, have been heavily involved with PMI and now make a living teaching Scrum certification classes. Jesse and I debate the answer to the PMP certification question and along the way, discuss our differing views on the value of PMI-ACP, CSM and CSPO certifications. These are things we don’t always see eye to eye on, so regardless of your viewpoint, there is sure to be something in here to help you see things from a different perspective. We also have a brief conversation about what do to about PMO’s in Agile organizations. Note: You may hear some odd background noise. This time it isn't me slurping coffee … #blamethefidgittoys Show Notes 00:08 Podcast Starts 00:34 An update on Jesse’s recent and upcoming Agile PMO sessions, VirtuallyAgile.com and his Certified Agile Leadership Training classes 07:53 Does PMP Certification still matter? And if you are working in Agile, do you still need it? 09:57 If you are a traditional PM, are you in danger of becoming unemployable if you do not have agile? 11:50 Can a traditional PM avoid the trap of thinking they “get” Agile before they actually do? 14:26 Jesse’s involvement with PMI-ACP, it’s evolution and current relevance 16:20 What can you expect of someone who has PMP or PMI-ACP Certification? 18:10 PMI and Agile Alliance collaboration and what we can expect to see from it 20:10 PMI is working with the Agile Alliance… “It’s like the X-Men and the Justice League tried to plan something together” 21:10 “Everyone has the same mission - improve outcomes and people doing their job well” 21:43 It’s not a “standard”, it’s a “guide” 22:07 How much Agile will be in the new (6th) edition of the PMBOK? 23:00 For the skeptics… there is good on both sides of PMI and the Agile Alliance working together 24:30 Understanding the distinction between the work done by PMI and the Agile Alliance (stabilize and align vs. disrupt) 26:42 Will there be a new Agile certification coming from PMI? 29:26 If you know a PMP trying to decide between taking a CSM or a PMI-ACP course and they need advice on what to take 32:42 Dave and Jesse debate whether getting PMP is still valuable for a CSM or CSPO 36:17 “Most Agile people are punching above their weight…” 39:18 What do we do about the PMO if our organization is adopting Agile? 44:22 Want more Jesse? Here is how to get it…. 45:02 Interview Ends Links references in the podcast: The Hybrid PMO (part of Seminars World) http://bit.ly/2tbOvM5 Solving the PMO Paradox (at Agile 2017) http://bit.ly/2sJ8wJj Certifications and Agile Organizations Mentioned in the Podcast PMP Certification http://bit.ly/29NtawC PMI-ACP Certification https://www.pmi.org/certifications/types/agile-acp CSM Certification http://bit.ly/ZtotC1 CSPO Certification http://bit.ly/1HeXnC5 Certified Agile Leadership Certification https://www.scrumalliance.org/agile-leadership Agile Alliance: https://www.agilealliance.org Scrum Alliance: https://www.scrumalliance.org PMI: https://www.pmi.org/ IC Agile: https://icagile.com Contacting Jesse: Website: http://www.jessefewell.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/jessefewell LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessefewell/ Contacting Dave Website: https://drunkenpm.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/mrsungo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrsungo/

Parikshit Basrur works in Sydney, Australia as a Management Consultant who focuses on leadership, strategy and execution. He comes from a strong traditional project management background but for the past few years he has been working in a senior leadership role within an organization that has been undergoing a transformation to Agile. This work, and Parikshit’s unique way of looking at managing work has led him to develop an Agile Transformation Playbook. In this interview, we discuss his approach to working with and transitioning to agile, the importance of focusing on culture, his take on the agile vs. traditional debate and his upcoming sessions at the Hindsight Forum where he will be giving a presentation on how to establish agile practices in a well-established business. Show Notes 00:12 Interview begins 00:33 Background on Parikshit 01:52 Parikshit’s transition from waterfall to Agile 05:00 The difference between being Agile and doing Agile 07:15 Finding the right tools and delivering work 08:12 Speaking with Stakeholders Executives about Enterprise Transformation 12:03 Responding to the “WE HAVE TO SHIP NOW!” attitude and understanding WHY Agile? 17:15 Helping stakeholders appreciate how hard transformation can be 19:10 The McDonald’s Drive Thru version of Agile 22:30 Agile needs to be like air 23:35 Change your culture first… help them stay away from the candy on the table 27:40 Creating the desire for change 29:50 How the Agile Transformation Playbook differs from other transformation approaches 32:35 Where to find the Agile Transformation Playbook, seeing Parikshit’s upcoming presentations 33:15 Where to reach Parikshit 33:39 Interview Ends To learn more about the Agile Transformation Playbook Slideshare: http://bit.ly/2s0TKvy Medium: http://bit.ly/2rlv3YD YouTube: https://youtu.be/js96mF3X_fw Parikshit’s upcoming sessions at the Hindsight Forum HindSight Forum http://www.hindsightforum.com/events/ Melbourne - June 21, 2017 Sydney - June 22, 2017 Contacting Parikshit LinkedIn: http://bit.ly/2rg8z06 Twitter: https://twitter.com/parikshitbasrur

During the 2017 Heart of Agile Conference in Pittsburgh, Savannah Rayat gave a presentation called “Enhancing your life with Personal Agility”. During the session she explained how she has applied some basic Agile practices from Scrum and Kanban to refine and focus her approach to life, deciding what is most important to her, and managing teams. Savannah has also applied Agile in other non-IT areas. During the interview, we talk about some of the Scrum practices she has applied in working with her team of Realtors. Show Notes 00:10 - Interview Begins 00:52 - Background on Savannah 01:42 - How Day-Trading fits in with being a Realtor/IT Professional 02:15 - How Savannah defines Personal Agility 04:44 - Savannah’s approach to Personal Kanban and her issue with deadlines 05:31 - The important of setting and maintaining WIP Limits 07:06 - Reducing your WIP to 3-4 10:00 - Preventing the backlash of cutting stuff our of your life 12:15 - Having affection for your interests 12:42 - Deciding what you can live without 14:29 - Long term and short term road mapping 15:48 - Savannah’s Day to Day practice of Agile 18:50 - The need for slack 21:35 - The benefits of self-reflection and coping with the guilt of doing unplanned stuff 23:16 - Making the time for Personal Kanban 24:19 - Accountability Partners 25:33 - How to get started with using Personal Agility 27:44 - How Savannah uses Scrum to support collaboration on her Real Estate team 32:38 - Getting in touch with Savannah 34:39 - Interview Ends Contacting Savannah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/savannah-rayat-8942b8120/ on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SavannahRayat Savannah’s Realty site: http://rayatrealtygroup.com Savannah’s Heart of Agile 2017 http://heartofagile.com/Session/enhancing-your-life-with-personal-agility/

Jessie Shternshus is the founder of The Improv Effect and the author of “CTRL SHIFT: 50 Games for 50 ****ing Days Like Today”. In her work, Jessie often incorporates improv techniques to help people tap into the things they need to become better communicators, team members and leaders. She also coaches organizations through Agile transition and cultural change. After recently completing my first improv class, and not feeling very confident that I “got it”, I had lots of questions. Jessie was kind enough to spend some time talking with me about my experience, the benefits improv can provide, what “yes, and…” really means, why it is important and the elements needed to create a safe space where people can thrive and be creative. SHOW NOTES 00:00 Podcast Intro 01:58 Interview Start 02:22 What Jessie has been up to lately 03:42 Jessie’s work coaching people to help them amp up their presentation skills 04:45 The Creative Courage Summit 05:58 Jessie’s Book “CTRL SHIFT: 50 Games for 50 ****ing Days Like Today” 06:17 Intro to the Improv Discussion 07:00 Dave’s fears about the safety provided by the improv framework 07:46 “I’m happy to tell you your being dumb” 08:22 How can you have an environment that is supportive AND critical 08:41 Dave missed some important pieces 09:08 Learning from what makes you uncomfortable 10:04 It’s important to find the class that is right for you 11:50 How you establish a safe improv space 13:36 Safety comes from setting expectations, modeling behavior and getting to know people 16:12 Finding a way to use improv to build camaraderie with remote teams 18:20 Do you always have to “Yes, and…” 18:50 How “Yes, and” works, and the benefits it can bring 21:22 What skills improv can offer to individuals and teams working in an office setting 22:50 Advice from Jessie on how to pick the right class for you 25:19 Part of being creative involves tapping into your childlike self, but you have to feel safe going there 26:18 What if you can’t let go of everything and reach that childlike state? 28:20 Being mindful of the things you are resisting 30:02 Getting in touch with Jessie CONTACTING JESSIE http://www.improveffect.com https://www.facebook.com/improveffect/ https://twitter.com/TheImprovEffect LINKS: Jessie’s Book: “CTRL SHIFT: 50 Games for 50 ****ing Days Like Today” http://amzn.to/2rhOxPk The Creative Courage Summit: http://CreativeCourageSummit.live My Video Podcast interview with Jessie at the 2015 Agile Conference: https://vimeo.com/135568636

There are lots of podcasts about Agile out there and each of them has something valuable to offer to the community. But a few weeks ago, a new kind of Agile podcast launched. John Le Drew is the creator of “The Agile Path”, a long form NPR style podcast… (think Serial for Agile). In this interview, John shares the story of how he ended up working on the podcast, what it was like creating it, some of his current projects as well as details about the process he follows in creating the podcasts and his favorite gear. If you are interested in podcasting, block out some time for this one, there is a lot of valuable stuff in here. SHOW NOTES 00:01 Podcast Intro 00:52 Interview begins 01:19 John’s journey from whizkid geek hooligan to developer to Agile coach/podcaster 10:29 What inspired John to create The Agile Path and the sources that influenced his approach 11:45 Creating the soundscape for listeners 14:15 Finding the right music and getting permission to use it in a very bold way 17:53 The benefits of overcoming the fear of approaching people on your bookshelf 19:57 We should all strive to bring out our inner Woody 20:25 John’s editing process and the work he’s doing on future episodes 22:05 How John is integrating improv in his upcoming workshops and why that is relevant to the topic of safety 25:51 Dave asks John a question about how safety works in improv classes and how “Yes and…” is about accepting what comes to you without judgement and building on it 29:40 Imagine it like a sieve… find the gold 31:09 Paying attention and what that really means 34:28 Scripting it all out, then editing 39:18 Work on the next episode and the schedule John is aiming for 40:29 John’s favorite recording equipment 45:05 Wrapping Up LINKS FROM THE PODCAST The Agile Path http://agilepath.fm Twitter: https://twitter.com/agilepathfm John’s upcoming speaking events and workshops: http://wisenoodle.me/speaking

Scrum Alliance Interim CEO Lisa Hershman shared some time at the 2017 Scrum Gathering in San Diego to talk about the top initiatives being worked on at the Scrum Alliance, including their partnership with Large Scale Scrum, changes to the certification programs and more.

Making the transition to Agile is never easy for PMP’s. Once you re-wire your brain to think like a PM, letting go of all of that you have learned, and accepting a completely different way of working presents a lot of challenges. A big part of what I try to do with these podcasts is to share stories of those who have successfully made the switch and what that transformation was like. At the Scrum Gathering in San Diego a few weeks ago I got the chance to sit down with someone I’ve been hoping to interview about this topic for a long time. Gene Bounds is the Chair of the Scrum Alliance Board of Directors. He is ALSO the former Chair of PMI. He comes from a background that is deeply steeped in the traditional space working on government projects, to someone who is now deeply invested in helping to grow the Agile community and change the world of work. Because Gene has dedicated so much of his life to being in the service of others, first in the United States Air Force, then volunteering for PMI for many years, and now working with the Scrum Alliance, we also took some time in the interview to talk about the benefits that come from investing all that time volunteering. You can find Gene here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eugene-bounds-82b70754/ Scrum Alliance: https://www.scrumalliance.org/community/profile/ebounds If you have comments or feedback on the podcast, please send an email to drunkenpmradio@gmail.com

The Trust Artist, Olaf Lewitz, along with his partner, Christine Neidhardt, are gearing ready for their upcoming TrustTemenos Certified Agile Leadership trainings. Certified Agile Leadership trainings are a new, advanced level of training classes being offered through the Scrum Alliance. In this interview Olaf and I discuss the reason for his TrustTemenos CAL class, how it can help people become better Agile leaders, and the value of Certified Agile Leadership. Safety is a very hot topic in the Agile space right now. During our conversation about safety, Olaf shared one of the most powerful things I have heard during an interview this year: “When you talk to people about trust, it rises. When you talk to people about safety, they get scared” Every conversation I have with Olaf leaves me more aware and (I hope) a bit smarter than I was when it began. I hope you will get as much value from listening to this as I did from recording the conversation. And you can find links to Olaf’s upcoming classes and events, as well as his contact info, below the show notes. Show Notes 00:07 Podcast Intro 01:27 Begins 01:57 An overview of Agile Leadership Training 04:48 A skeptical response to the idea of Agile Leadership Training and Olaf’s response 07:16 Developing a thinking model to understand what we need and how that drives our actions 09:11 The power of metaphor in leadership and Dave’s aversion to boats 11:03 Giving people tools to grow their awareness of how they show up 11:34 These classes cover advanced leadership topics - not the basics 12:16 “If you trust in yourself… you will still get beaten by people” 13:05 Skepticism is an important part of any class and any transition 13:32 It’s about being intentional and aware 15:23 There is a specific type of learning that involves being uncomfortable because what you believe is challenged 15:57 Extending the question of leadership beyond work and helping them understand more about their awareness and intention 17:00 Olaf shares a story about his first experience working as a boss 21:29 The advice Olaf about give his 29 year-old self about being a boss for the firs time 22:23 It’s okay to ask for help 24:05 A question about safety and what it means to create a safe space 25:42 When you talk to people about trust, it rises, when you talk to people about safety, they get scared 27:22 What is Certified Agile Leadership Training? What level of knowledge experience do you need to attend? 28:08 What will CAL training do for a leader/manager in an Agile organization? 29:28 Where to learn more about Olaf’s upcoming classes, where you can see him speak and how to get in touch with him if you have questions. Links from the Podcast Showing Up - the book written by Olaf and Christine https://leanpub.com/showingup TrustTemenos Leadership Academy: https://trusttemenos.de Upcoming CAL Trainings - https://trusttemenos.de/certified-agile-leadership-cal1/ Olaf’s session at the 2017 Scrum Gathering San Diego is called: Product Owner: Mapping Dramas and Dreams and it will be held in the Harbor Island 1 room on Monday, April 10 from 1 PM until 2:15 PM For more info on the Scrum Gathering: https://www.scrumalliance.org/sgcal Contacting Olaf LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olaflewitz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/OlafLewitz Website: http://trustartist.com

A few weeks ago Don Kim put up a blog post challenging the value of certifications. I reached out to Don in hopes of doing an interview about it and found out he’s also written a new book “I think Therefore I Plan”. In this interview we discuss the pros and cons of different certifications, taking an artisan approach to managing projects as well as Don’s new book. You can find Don’s book here: http://amzn.to/2n7VEHu You can find Don’s blog post about certifications here: http://bit.ly/2okDUZA Show Notes: 00:07 Interview Start 00:30 What is a Human APEE 03:38 What is an Artisan approach to Project Management 05:15 Don’s Philosophy of Project Management 07:22 Trying to slow down and do less 08:21 Don explains his way of approaching project work and the reason for the book 10:56 How has the traditional vs. Agile debate changed over the past few years 12:53 Seeing the value in every project you work on - regardless of how you got it 16:15 The downside of certifications 17:29 The positive aspects of certifications 18:03 There is more to project management training than just PMP certification 19:48 Making the case for the value certifications can provide and how it can be misunderstood 23:22 Does it make sense for people to want to have a way of gauging their professional achievement? 23:55 What Don expected from PMP certification and how he went deep with the Kerzner to get the most learning out of it (instead of just passing the test) 26:41 Is it the certification that is an issue, or the way people interpret it as an end point rather than a beginning 27:50 An overview of the approach Don’s book takes towards the art of Project Management 30:56 Where you can find Don’t book and how you can reach him with follow up questions 31:54 Podcast Ends You can reach Don Kim on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donkim/ Feedback/Comments: drunkenpm@gmail.com