The Leadership Podcast

Kevin Eikenberry is a leadership expert with decades of experience and author of "Flexible Leadership: Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence". Kevin explores what it takes to lead effectively in a constantly changing environment. He shares why being a "remarkable" leader isn't about charisma or titles. It's about intentional actions, self-awareness, and the ability to influence in complex and fast-changing environments. He challenges a common leadership trap: mistaking consistency for rigidity and explains how great leaders remain anchored in values while staying flexible in approach. He explores why so many leaders fail to delegate, how trust and influence suffer in remote settings, and the frequent mistake of promoting technical experts into people leadership roles without preparing them for the shift. He also explains that leadership hasn't changed at its core, but the growing diversity of values has shifted the context dramatically. Kevin explains the confidence-competence loop and why the right leadership response often lies in managing tensions, not finding balance. He encourages leaders to slow down, reflect with purpose, and make conscious choices that align with the moment's needs and not just their preferences. If you've ever wondered how to lead when the ground keeps shifting beneath you, this episode is one to listen to more than once. You can find episode 467 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Kevin Eikenberry on Navigate Uncertainty https://bit.ly/TLP-467 Key Takeaways [02:39] Kevin shared that he collects antique tractors and matching toy replicas. Growing up on a farm and being involved in his family's agriculture business gave him real responsibility at a young age. That early exposure shaped how he sees leadership today: through the lens of contribution, accountability, and impact. [05:33] Kevin believes being remarkable starts with recognizing each person's ability to make a difference. It's about instilling confidence without arrogance and acting intentionally. Great leaders help others believe they are capable and valuable, especially in environments filled with change. [09:40] Kevin challenges the false choice between being consistent or being flexible. He uses the image of a mature tree—rooted but able to bend—as a model for leadership today. Flexibility means changing your approach without compromising core values, especially as the context around you evolves. [13:39] Jim asked how the growing diversity of values affects leadership today. Kevin explained that while human behavior and leadership fundamentals haven't changed, the context around them has shifted dramatically. [17:35] Many leaders want to delegate but get caught in the mindset that it's quicker to do things themselves. Kevin frames delegation as an investment, not a transaction. Building trust and capability in others takes time up front, but it's essential—especially in distributed and hybrid work settings. [21:02] Kevin points out that organizations often promote top performers in technical roles without preparing them for leadership. He draws a parallel to sports that great players rarely make great coaches. [23:33] Kevin shares that to be intentional, leaders must slow down and reflect. Whether it's quiet time during a commute or a simple end-of-day check-in, asking what went well and what could improve helps leaders stay grounded. Kevin stresses that reflection isn't about ruminating, it's about learning and adjusting. [29:02] Kevin notes that progress often comes after setbacks. When leaders own what's theirs and shift focus to outcomes and others. Getting stuck in guilt or blame prevents forward movement. The key is to learn the right lessons and redirect energy to what matters next. [35:13] Kevin leaves us with a challenge: if you're still leading the same way you were before the pandemic, it's time to reassess. The world has changed. Flexible leaders recognize what the situation requires and adjust their approach—not based on habit, but on what will serve their people and outcomes best. [36:52] And remember..."All fixed set patterns are incapable of adaptability or pliability. The truth is outside of all fixed patterns." - Bruce Lee Quotable Quotes "Being a flexible leader is about being willing to change my approach based on the context of the situation." "Delegation has to be an investment." "To be a truly flexible leader is a really hard task, because I'm suggesting that you have to go past your autoresponder." "Reflection that informs maybe where the discipline should be." "The confidence, competence cycle. Right. As we become more confident, it helps our competence, and as we become more competent, we become more confident." "We think about leadership as being about three O's: outcomes, others and ourselves." "What we need to do is manage the tension between things more than trying to find a perfect answer." "If you haven't, if you've been consistent as a leader from then until now, do you think that all of those changes have conspired to make your approach to leading more effective? I'm not taking that bet." This is the book mentioned in this book Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Kevin Eikenberry Website | https://kevineikenberry.com Kevin Eikenberry You tube channel - www.youtube.com/user/KevinEikenberryGroup Kevin Eikenberry The Remarkable Leadership podcast - https://kevineikenberry.com/podcasts/ Kevin Eikenberry X | @kevineikenberry Kevin Eikenberry Facebook | www.facebook.com/kevineikenberryfanpage Kevin Eikenberry LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/kevineikenberry Kevin Eikenberry Instagram | @kevineikenberry

Retired U.S. Army three-star General Ray Palumbo is co-founder and senior partner of Venturi Solutions, having served 34 years leading conventional and special operations forces during peacetime and combat. A former 160th Squadron pilot and West Point graduate, he now serves on multiple boards and is passionate about supporting injured military veterans and Gold Star families. In this episode, Ray discusses the critical distinction between leadership and generalship, explaining how generals must orchestrate multiple military capabilities while understanding how military power fits into broader national strategy. He reveals how his humble beginnings in a Pennsylvania steel town, raised by educators and coaches, instilled the mental toughness and values that would serve him throughout his military career. Ray explores the transformative experience of joining the elite 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, where constant assessment and high standards created a culture of excellence that changed his life. He breaks down his leadership pyramid model, emphasizing how successful organizations must establish unchanging values, cultivate culture that aligns values with behavior, build strategic capabilities, and communicate vision beyond immediate goals. Ray also addresses the complex challenge facing military veterans in today's polarized political environment, offering hope that stronger, more moderate leadership can bring the country back to "competing within the 40-yard lines." For leaders transitioning from military to corporate environments, veterans feeling disillusioned with current discourse, and executives seeking to build values-based organizations, this episode provides powerful insights on authentic leadership, strategic thinking, and the importance of maximizing life's "scraps of time" for continuous growth. You can find episode 469 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Ray Palumbo on A Leadership Pyramid Model https://bit.ly/TLP-469 Key Takeaways [05:02] - Ray explains his grandparents owned Columbus Tavern in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, he grew up in a coal town, came from a family of educators and coaches, his dad was a high school coach who became principal, and all family members had to play sports which taught mental toughness, discipline, and academic excellence. [06:41] - Ray confirms that the mental toughness his dad instilled, being educators who demanded academic excellence, and learning to be a team player, win, and lose with dignity was definitely ingrained growing up. [07:32] - Ray advises to "hang tough" because "the pendulum swings," believes the political discourse is polarized, and thinks stronger moderate leadership will bring the country back to "fighting the game between the 40 yard lines instead of from end zone to end zone." [09:29] - Ray explains there are similarities between military and corporate leadership, it comes down to values, mentions the army values of loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage, and emphasizes that values must be lived, not just carried in your wallet or on dog tags. [14:22] - Ray distinguishes that military leadership focuses on mission above self with potential personal sacrifice, while corporate leadership focuses on company loyalty and profitability. Generalship involves manipulating multiple capabilities and understanding how the military fits into all elements of national power including diplomatic, information, economic, and financial elements. [19:55] - Ray describes running a Combined Joint Special Operations Task force in Afghanistan where night operations sometimes resulted in civilian casualties, creating information challenges at local, national, NATO, and global news cycle levels, noting they "didn't figure it out at first" but "got better at it as time went on." [23:53] - Ray recalls a two star general telling him "we are all benefited and limited by our experiences," explaining he came from special operations with high expectations and had to learn not to "outrun your headlights" when commanding conventional forces doing complex air assault operations in Germany. [26:20] - Ray mentions working for General McChrystal in JSOC and reading "The Speed of Trust" by Stephen Covey, emphasizing that "trust goes a long way on cold, dark nights" when you have no control but must believe someone will get you where you need to go. [29:14] - Ray describes his pyramid model: establish values as the foundation, cultivate culture that reflects those values, build strategy to achieve desired ends, and communicate vision constantly, emphasizing that leaders must establish organizational values while culture aligns those values to actual personal behavior. [33:31] - Ray believes stronger moderate political leadership is needed but has strong opinions against senior officers opining about the commander in chief because it creates dilemmas for current soldiers who must follow orders while also respecting their former commanders who criticize the president. [37:48] - Ray explains that families have "suffered enough" during military service, today's political discourse involves digging into personal history, and many feel they've "given a lot already" and prefer other ways to help rather than dragging families through political campaigns. [39:09] - Ray shares a story from West Point where General Maxwell Taylor spoke about taking advantage of "scraps of time" throughout life, explaining that instead of hanging out drinking beer, using those moments for reading, studying languages, or practicing skills will put you ahead of competitors over a lifetime. [41:15] And remember..."Humility and knowledge and poor clothes excel Pride and ignorance in costly attire." - William Penn Quotable Quotes "We are all benefited and limited by our experiences." "You don't want to outrun your headlights at times." "When it comes to mission focus, military leadership is loyal to the Constitution and puts mission above yourself." "Generalship, in my view, to answer your question, finally, is understanding the nuance between management of military capabilities and how military, how the military fits into all the other elements of power at the national level." "We need stronger leadership that's more moderate." "I believe that organizations have to be successful organizations and successful leaders have to establish values of the corporation." "Culture is so important in my mind because what is culture? It's. It's aligning the corporate values, the base, to actual personal behavior, how they behave." "If you take advantage of your scraps of time throughout a lifetime, and all things being equal to your competitors, you're going to be ahead." "There's stuff you want to do because you have a bunch of tools on your tool belt. And then there's stuff you should do because the community, country, society, whatever, needs you to do those things, which is going to require sacrifice." These are the books mentioned in this episode Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Ray Palumbo LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/ray-palumbo-25266787

Dan Manning is the Chief Story Architect at Build The Story, and a former fighter pilot and U.S. diplomat. Dan digs into the difference between storytelling that entertains and storytelling that leads to decisions. Dan breaks down how he helps people choose the right story for the right moment and how every story should reflect a transformation: from fear to confidence, from confusion to clarity. He also talks about the power of visuals in storytelling, advocating for using them as prompts rather than distractions. Dan shares a story about giving tough feedback to ChatGPT and what it revealed about truth and trust in the digital world. If you're in a position of influence whether that's in a boardroom or on a Zoom call, this conversation will get you thinking differently about how you communicate. You can find episode 466 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Dan Manning on Story Is The Vehicle, Not The Cargo https://bit.ly/TLP-466 Key Takeaways [04:11] Dan shared how his varied experiences led him to storytelling.His background as a combat pilot and diplomat gave him lots of real-life stories. Each role taught him how to speak and connect in different ways. He says great stories come from living a full life. Teaching storytelling helped him improve his own skills. [05:57] Dan explained how he chooses the right story for the moment. He starts by asking what change he wants to spark. He chooses stories that move people from one mindset to another. It's not about entertaining; it's about making an impact. [09:26] Dan compares storytelling to how fighter pilots share lessons after missions. These "never again" stories are about mistakes and survival. In business, they help others learn without repeating those same mistakes. [11:11] Dan elaborated on how to make 'never again' stories work in business.Dan says a good story keeps people curious about what happened next. That curiosity helps the lesson stick. [13:37] Jim asked Dan about making his storytelling economical and precise. Dan always starts with the key message. He removes extra details so the main point stays clear. This helps people understand and remember what really matters. [19:59] Dan discussed the role of visuals in storytelling and whether we should ditch PowerPoint. Dan's not a fan of slides, but he sees their value. He says visuals should support the message, not steal the spotlight. Use them to help people remember—not to do the talking for you. [25:22] Jim asked Dan about achieving conscious competence in storytelling. Dan learned to tell clear stories in high-stress situations. His military background taught him how to share complex ideas simply. Now, his goal is to help people act on what they hear. [29:38] Jan asked Dan about the paradox of emotional storytelling requiring emotional detachment. Dan says emotional stories must still stay focused. Even when a story is deep and personal, it should serve a purpose. If something doesn't support the message, cut it out. [32:56] Dan explained his interaction with ChatGPT about "tough feedback." He once asked ChatGPT for help and got a made-up excuse instead. It reminded him that AI can't feel or judge—it just talks smoothly. He says let AI handle the easy stuff, and save the hard, creative thinking for people. [37:48] Dan believes good stories don't just teach—they make people think. The real power is in getting listeners to reflect and ask their own questions. That's what makes the story last. [39:33] And remember..."Humans think in stories, and we try to make sense of the world by telling stories." - Yuval Noah Harari Quotable Quotes "You will never live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. You have to learn from the mistakes of others." "Story is the vehicle, not the cargo. The cargo is the important thing." "I'm not trying to push my story onto other people. I want to find what is already in their mind that they're already interested in that makes them want to pull it from me. " "Every story is a story of transformation." "storytelling is the easiest way for humans to process information and use it to make a decision… And if I can be effective at conveying a story, I can shape the way that a person receives the information that I'm giving them. I can help them, I can drive their imagination to imagine what it would be like if you did the thing that I suggested that you should be doing. " "I'm not telling stories for the sake of entertainment. I'm not telling stories so that people will laugh and nod and say, man, that guy's a great storyteller. I am telling stories because I want people to do something. I want them to make a decision too." "If someone doesn't believe that the story you're about to tell is going to somehow benefit them, you're. They're not going to listen to you. " "The more that we begin thinking about how we make decisions with tools like AI, the better off we are, because it's easy for us to just offload what we consider to be the hard work to AI, but we really need to be offloading the easy work to AI so that we have more time to do the hard work ourselves." These are the books mentioned in this episode. Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Dan Manning Website | www.buildthestory.com Dan Manning LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-manning2 Dan Manning X | @Beefmanning

Dr. Andreas Stamatis is a Professor at the University of Louisville and a Mental Performance Specialist at UofL Health, blending sport science, psychology, and leadership to help individuals and organizations thrive under pressure. In this episode, Andreas explores the foundation of mental performance—how it's developed, why it's often misunderstood, and what separates sustainable performance from momentary hype. Andreas introduces the "existential positive psychology", a framework that views adversity as a growth opportunity—but only when it's relevant. Andreas challenges the idea that mental toughness leads to selfishness. He explains that mental toughness is a personal construct—true strength lies in managing competing demands without losing yourself or others. He also tackles the corporate tendency to overvalue outcomes and undervalue behaviors. Andreas challenges that mindset, insisting that behaviors are more controllable, more consistent, and more ethical to reward. Andreas also sees potential in how AI can help shape behavior and context if used wisely. He compares it to any other high-performance tool: powerful when used with clarity and care. This conversation is for anyone who wants to build a mentally tough team, avoid burnout, and embrace the kind of leadership that values people over performance metrics. You can find episode 465 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Dr. Andreas Stamatis on How Mental Toughness is Developed https://bit.ly/TLP-465 Key Takeaways [03:14] Andreas breaks down mental performance, bringing with real-world examples. Andreas explains that mental performance isn't about motivation—it's about creating a "psychological infrastructure" that holds up under pressure, enabling sustainable, adaptable, and ethical performance when it matters most. [07:16] Andreas delved into existential positive psychology, using Lent as an example: "We do it because we understand that through stress, adversity, difficulty, we grow." [09:28] Andreas pointed out what is relevant adversity. Forcing someone to run a marathon when they're a diver won't make them stronger—it'll just derail them. True growth comes from adversity that aligns with personal goals. [10:45] To counter the perception that psychology is "soft," Andreas uses data to show that mental toughness is a performance multiplier. His team collects evidence through interviews, questionnaires, and observations, proving that mental toughness improves not only performance but social cohesion and reduces issues like screen time addiction. [15:27] When asked if there's such a thing as too much mental toughness, Andreas acknowledged the danger of a "machismo mentality." While grit is valuable, it can become toxic when it turns into blind persistence that sacrifices well-being. [19:04] One of Andreas's most powerful insights came when Jim quoted him: "The entity cannot be more important than the humans that support it." He critiqued the "performance trap," where results are prioritized over ethical behavior and people. Andreas advocates for a shift in culture—focusing on the process, the mindset, and the individuals who drive performance, rather than just the outcome. [24:08] When AI came up in the conversation, Andreas compared it to any high-performance tool: not a replacement for humans, but a servant to human potential. He envisions AI helping people fine-tune their focus, regulate emotions, and stay resilient by providing real-time, personalized feedback. [31:18] And remember..."Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." - Thomas Jefferson Quotable Quotes "So existential positive psychology says, yes, be proactive, work on your strengths. However, that trauma, stress, adversity that you go through, it has the potential for growth." "Even in your darkest hour, there could be something that could help you grow and become better human." "So we're not looking for adversity just to look for adversity... we need to take them through the process that would lead them to put them in a better position to be successful towards those goals." "Mental toughness is a multiplier." "The mentally tough mindset is purposeful, which means you know where you're going. There's direction, and there's energy towards those goals as a purposefulness." "The mentally tough mindset has efficiency, which means there's a congruency between your behaviors and your goals. Otherwise, they're just dreams." — "When you have a goal in order to achieve that goal, there are behaviors that you need to do in order to achieve that goal. Behind that one step before that is the mindset." "mental toughness is a personal construction. There's no team mental toughness. It's. It's something that you have to work on yourself. I don't see it as something that necessarily is negative. I see it as empowering." "an actual real mentally tough person can work with conflicting goals, that's how we say, or interest." "So metrics start to, in a way, overshadow mindset and then the behavior becomes transactional. So that's the performance trap. So we reward results even if they were achieved unethically or unsustainably, and we punish failure even if the process was sound and value aligned and we did the best we could under the circumstances. But the truth is this. Outcomes are variable. Markets shift, opponents adjust, life throws curveballs. But mindset can be trained, stabilized, and eventually applied across all of it." "When the standard, people know what's expected from them, no matter the result, the culture becomes behavior driven and value based and performance becomes more consistent and stress goes down." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Facebook | www.facebook.com/AndreasCoachStamStamatis LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-stamatis-ph-d-facsm-acsm-ep-53550253/ Instagram | @thecoachstam

In this Mastermind episode of The Leadership Podcast, General Stanley McChrystal returns for a third conversation—his most personal and revealing appearance yet. Stan discusses the defining choices in his life, the moments that shaped his character, and the values that continue to guide his leadership. He talks about how his parents influenced his values through action, not words, and how his mother's sudden death when he was sixteen changed the trajectory of his life and family. Stan shares his experience including near-expulsion from West Point, and another in his early Special Forces days when he learned that trying to be liked is not the same as leading well. Stan describes what it was like to work under leaders who lacked character, and how those experiences helped him define the kind of leader he never wanted to become. He discusses how having strong peers and a grounded spouse helped him stay true to his principles, even in environments where it was easy to lose direction. Stan shares how aging has narrowed his circle and sharpened his expectations for friendship. He also talks about how his views on war have evolved. He argues that true change in leadership and values may require discomfort or even crisis to take root. Stan shares why he believes society needs shared standards again—not to suppress individuality, but to maintain mutual respect and unity. Whether you're a young professional, a seasoned leader, or someone thinking about the legacy you want to leave, this episode will challenge you to reflect. Stan reminds us that we're not passengers in our own development. We can choose the kind of leader we want to be. You can find this mastermind episode wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Stan McChyrstal on Character https://bit.ly/TLPMM012 Key Takeaways [04:05] Stan shared how the foundation of his character was quietly built at home. His father, a combat infantryman, was steady and soft-spoken—the kind of man young Stan wanted to emulate. His mother, a thoughtful Southern woman, modeled integrity and social conviction. Stan said, "They never sat us down and talked to us about values… they just lived in a way that you thought, well, that's the right way to go." [07:11] Stan reflected on the emotional toll of losing his mother at 16. Her sudden death shook the entire family and deeply impacted his father, who, despite being a general and a warrior, visibly broke down. [09:01] When asked how he became the person he is today, Stan talked about trying on different leadership personas. He once tried being the "hard-ass" and even channeled General Patton, only to discover none of them fit. Eventually, through reflection and mistakes, he said, "At some point, there is a you, and you've got to sort of figure out what that is." [11:43] Stan admitted that he came dangerously close to being expelled from West Point. It's a story he laughs about now, but he acknowledged that if he hadn't graduated, "we would not be laughing about it now." [13:01] One of Stan's earliest moral tests came during Ranger School. Exhausted and frustrated with a peer leader, Stan and a few others simply refused to follow orders. "There was a right and wrong… and we did the wrong thing," he confessed. He's carried the shame of that moment ever since, not because of the person they disrespected—but because he remembers what he did. [15:20] Stan looked back on his time as a young Special Forces lieutenant and admitted that he tried too hard to be liked. Over time, he learned that leadership isn't about popularity—it's about standards and setting the tone. A pivotal leadership lesson came when Stan was publicly fired by a seasoned commander after making a cocky remark in a meeting. "I've decided relieving you is wrong," the major later told him. "You're going to stay here, and I'm going to teach you to be an Army officer." That humbling moment became a turning point—one Stan says he was lucky to receive. [20:19] Early in his career, Stan served under a battalion commander who taught him how not to lead. "He humiliated himself," Stan realized, after being screamed at during a march. Later, that same leader quietly reenlisted an unfit soldier just to hit a metric—an act that shattered any remaining trust. "You don't need a lot of examples like that to say: I will never do that." [24:04] When asked if a public figure ever failed the character test, Stan said yes—and the disappointment stuck. "You start to say, well, if they're really good at what they do, is it okay they do things they shouldn't?" His answer: No. "Everybody's got weaknesses… but there are bounds of acceptability," and if someone crosses them, he simply steps away. [26:20] Stan shared that as he's gotten older, his circle has gotten smaller. "I actually have a very small number of friends," he said. While he's become less judgmental, he's also more selective. "I'm going to have people that I really respect and like—because that's who makes me respect myself." [27:50] Reflecting on whether younger people can shortcut the wisdom that comes with age, Stan emphasized the power of reading. Books like Once an Eagle offered different lessons at each stage of life. "Life is nuances forever," he said, and engaging with deep, thoughtful material can guide us when experience hasn't caught up yet. [28:54] Stan talked candidly about how his views on war have evolved. "Wars don't actually solve the problem that we hope they will," he said. After seeing combat firsthand, he became more cautious. But he also noted how those who sacrifice gain legitimacy in shaping national decisions. "They now felt legitimate," he said of Israeli soldiers after Gaza—ready to sit at the table. [34:13] Stan's call for a national conversation on character is rooted in concern for our systems. "We've let character erode," he said. Good people enter politics and emerge changed—warped by the system's demands. He doesn't believe politicians will lead this movement. "It'll start in schools, on teams, in churches," he said. "Most of you are not being the people you even want to be." [38:11] On the question of whether pain is necessary for change, Stan said plainly, "Yes, I think there has to be more pain." He saw it during the transformation of JSOC—reform only came during failure. While he believes powerful leaders could spark change, he warned, "The history of very powerful leaders is you get something you don't want." [39:35] Stan acknowledged the tension between individuality and unity. "There need to be standards of decorum," he said. He isn't advocating for hats and skirts, but for shared norms that show respect. "The society doesn't work without some kinds of rules," he warned—rules that give us common ground. [42:18] Stan offered this insight: "Who you are is not an accident… make it intentional." He believes we each have agency over our convictions and our discipline. His advice to young people: "Expect to stumble, expect to make mistakes… but move toward who you want to be. Don't drift." [45:07] And remember..."I think. Therefore I am." - René Descartes Quotable Quotes "A leader is not an individual rock that everybody comes around. It's a group of people, and you reinforce each other." "Everybody's got weaknesses… but there are bounds of acceptability." "Leadership is never about the leader. It's about the mission, the people, and the values we refuse to compromise." "Life has nuances forever." "Wars don't actually solve the problem that we hope that they will." "Who you are is not an accident. That just happens." "Make decisions on who you want to be and then move toward that." "Expect to stumble, expect to make mistakes." "Why do we allow politicians to lie to us when we know they're lying and they know we know it? Why do we put up with that?" "Becoming who you want to be starts with deciding what that is." "Character is the only metric that matters." "You may not control your physical surroundings, but you control your mind." "Reaching our convictions demands deep reflection." "The most critical discipline is to think for ourselves." Books mentioned in this episode: Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com General Stanley McChrystal Website | www.mcchrystalgroup.com General Stanley McChrystal X | @mcchrystalgroup General Stanley McChrystal LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/company/mcchrystal-group Facebook | www.facebook.com/McChrystalGroup TLP101: General Stanley McChrystal on What Connects Us TLPMM002 - Part 1: General Stanley McChrystal (Ret) on Defining Yourself as a Leader

Sabina Nawaz is a top-tier executive coach who works closely with C-suite leaders and teams in Fortune 500 companies, government organizations, nonprofits, and universities globally. She's also the author of "You're the Boss: Become the Manager You Want to Be (and Others Need)." In this episode, Sabina discusses how power can distort perception, making leaders unaware of how they're coming across. She explains that the biggest barrier is often unacknowledged pressure, which leads to reactive behavior like micromanagement or overusing authority. She reveals how pressure can distort perception and lead to behaviors that harm both leaders and their teams. Sabina also dives into the tension between being approachable and maintaining authority, highlighting the importance of vulnerability and listening to others. She offers advice for leaders feeling overwhelmed, encouraging them to make time for "blank space" and reflect on their capacity before taking on more. For leaders looking to navigate the pressures of leadership and improve their effectiveness, this episode provides valuable insights on self-awareness, authority, and creating space for growth. You can find episode 464 wherever you get your podcasts! Watch this Episode on YouTube | Sabina Nawaz on Become the Boss You Want to Be https://bit.ly/TLP-464 Key Takeaways [04:18] Sabina shared how returning from parental leave led her into high-pressure meetings, causing her to shift from a supportive manager to a micromanager. A colleague's comment about someone crying because of her behavior made her reflect: "It's not power that corrupts—it's pressure." [06:53] Sabina warned against burnout from constant pressure. She advises high performers to set boundaries and practice "blank space"—two hours each week to unplug and just be. [08:51] Sabina emphasized the importance of balancing authority with empathy. She advocates for the "shut up muscle," where leaders wait to speak, allowing others to contribute first. [13:30] Sabina cautioned against claiming self-awareness. She encourages leaders to notice signs of power gaps, such as lack of independent feedback, as a way to improve awareness. [18:05] Sabina stressed that leaders should model vulnerability and avoid toxic positivity. Admitting struggles allows others to do the same, creating a more authentic work environment.She explained that leaders who hide their emotions prevent others from expressing theirs. Being open about one's own feelings fosters human connection, despite potential misinterpretation. [24:24] Sabina addressed the myth of bad bosses, stating that it's often pressure-induced behavior that causes leadership struggles. Leaders should adapt by reassessing how their strengths are perceived.Sabina urged leaders to reflect on how their strengths might be misunderstood under pressure. For example, "strategic" can be seen as manipulative and "calm" as disinterested. [28:03] Sabina highlighted the importance of reading signs from others and adjusting leadership behavior to avoid negative patterns and fit new responsibilities.Sabina shared a success story of a difficult leader who transformed by practicing restraint, slowing her pace, and valuing others' ideas—earning praise as the "best boss." [31:07] Sabina emphasized that coaching should come from genuine curiosity, not as an exit strategy. Only when leaders are willing to grow does true transformation happen. [32:32] Sabina offered a quick self-diagnosis tool from her book to spot "power gaps and pressure pitfalls," with reflective prompts like: "Are you the only one coming up with ideas?" [34:51] And remember... Know Thyself - Socrates Quotable Quotes "It is not power that corrupts. It is pressure that corrupts us." "Our default reaction to pressure is to hunker down and do more, more, more, more busier. But you know what? The 24-hour clock timer is going to die at some point." – "There are many ways to skin the cat. There are many ways to get something right and to accomplish something." – Sabina Nawaz "The first, second, maybe the third, fourth or fifth person to speak... Let others speak first because the minute you speak, no one else is going to debate that." "Self awareness is a never ending quest." "If somebody says they're self aware, they're not." "If someone says they're selfless, all I care about is everybody else... it's probably the opposite." "The more open you can channel yourself as the more people... It gives people permission to come to you and connect with you, human to human." "Be mindful of how you do that openness. And would you rather they're going to make up stories about you regardless whether you say something or you don't?" "It's more about diagnosing which specific aspect of bad boss behaviors are coming out in you when the pressure comes, the inevitable pressure comes in to corrupt you. But then it goes back to, you can't do any of that if you are not self aware." "There is no such thing as a purely bad or purely good boss." This is the book mentioned in this book Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Sabina Nawaz Website | sabinanawaz.com Sabina Nawaz LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/sabinanawaz Sabina Nawaz Instagram | @sabinacoaching

Sibley Bacon is an applied researcher and functional artist, and shares how she blends creativity with structure to build more human-centered teams. Sibely describes what it means to be a "functional artist"—a leader who truly sees the big picture, connects deeply, and inspires through presence, not position. She reflects on lessons from her time at Google, where she worked on improving team dynamics and navigating the gap between theory and business reality. Sibley offers a new take on employee engagement: when people see their work as art, not just tasks, their connection to the purpose changes. She also shares why slowing down might be the most strategic move in a world driven by AI and speed—and why getting outside is more critical than ever. This episode challenges assumptions, invites deeper thinking, and offers a powerful mindset shift for anyone who wants to lead with heart and clarity. You can find episode 463 wherever you get your podcasts! We're now on YouTube… please subscribe! https://bit.ly/TLP-463 Key Takeaways [02:47] Jim asked about Sibley's journey, being a child of two artists yet pursuing math and science. Sibley shared that her home was one of high standards and creative discipline. Her father was a sculptor; her mother, a classical singer. She said, "If you're not doing art, what is the point of being alive?" For her, structure and excellence weren't negotiable—they were the minimum. Sibley remembered being asked about grad school at age nine. Her great-aunt had a PhD in Chemistry in 1935, so expectations were generational. That bar shaped her belief that nothing is off-limits if you approach it with discipline, humility, and openness. [05:54] Jim asked about what steered her toward tech. She recalled standing on a plaza at University of Maryland, looking around and realizing that "humans keep creating humans," and data would need to be stored digitally. It wasn't about passion—it was about self-reliance: food, shelter, and survival. That clarity fueled her path into software engineering. [07:29] Jan asked about being a functional artist. Sibley said being an artist is about seeing everything and feeling everything. Functional art, she said, is about creating elegant tools for mundane tasks—turning the ordinary into something purposeful and moving. "You have to absorb it all… and produce something people take note of." [09:11] Jan brought up tone and intention in leadership. Sibley believes leadership starts with love. She cited John Madden's wisdom—you have to know who needs encouragement, discipline, or nurturing. She said, "When your team knows you love them, and you're doing everything you can to support their creative success, they perform better." [11:49] Jim asked about her work at Google. Sibley said she approaches team effectiveness as an art form. At Google, she was both responding to and initiating change. She credited Dave Duffield (founder of PeopleSoft and Workday) with teaching her how to connect dots between software and business execution. She added, "If you don't want to learn and grow, you don't want to work on my team." [14:24] Jim explored what makes cultures thrive or struggle. Sibley noted that unclear missions and rules of engagement stall momentum. She contrasted Google's abundance and academic culture with her own background rooted in lean business execution—underscoring how resource environments shape behavior and accountability. [17:27] Jim asked about balancing creativity and discipline. Sibley explained that Google was designed for "starburst innovation"—parallel innovation across many disciplines. It took years, but she now sees how that environment was tailored for breakthroughs in AI, quantum computing, and neural networking. [21:26] Jan asked about negotiating engagement. Sibley flipped the phrase. "We need to go as slowly as we possibly can, as fast as possible," she said. It's not just poetic—it's tactical. Today's emerging workforce, shaped by digital native neurology, requires deceleration to connect, adapt, and lead effectively. [24:50] Jan asked about adaptability. Sibley emphasized customizing leadership. Some thrive remotely, others need community. "You're not leading static people," she said. "Their lives are dynamic. How they need you changes." To lead well, you must stretch your people—and stay one step ahead. [27:33] Jim asked how generations can collaborate. Sibley shared her commitment to being "a good ancestor." It means grounding innovation in what's real—like gravity—and connecting high-tech tools to basic human needs. She's working on building a "small business market exchange" to complement Wall Street with sustainability. [34:45] Sibley said humility was the hardest thing she's worked for. "I was born a Leo, the year of the dragon, in Texas," she laughed. "That doesn't set you up for humility." Her journey, she shared, is about making a living amends—and doing the work to serve others better. [36:02] And remember..."Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up."-Pablo Picasso Quotable Quotes "with a global computing infrastructure, I think we need to go as slowly as we possibly can, as fast as possible." "Being an artist, you have to see everything. " "It's not your job whether or not they like it or not. It's about that they think about it." "Team execution effectiveness to support business sustainability. That is my art form." "Part of being a leader is being willing to negotiate." "We need employees to be adaptable. Everything's changing. At the same time, we need leaders to be adaptable." "So I think to be a leader means adapting to every single one of the people on your team, as their lives are dynamic." "I always want to be able to stretch people outside their comfort zone so that they can learn and grow." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Sibley Bacon Website | sibleybacon.com Sibley Bacon LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/sibleybacon

Linda Ugelow is the author of "Delight in the Limelight: Overcome Your Fear of Being Seen and Realize Your Dreams." In this episode, Linda shares how fear often stems from past experiences, and how leaders can reframe internal narratives to demonstrate more confidence. She dives into the power of self-acceptance and how it shapes leadership presence, especially in high-stakes situations. Linda shares how leaders can embrace strategic vulnerability—being open without oversharing—to build trust and credibility. If you've ever doubted your voice, this conversation will challenge your assumptions and offer a path forward to speak with clarity and confidence. You can find episode 462 wherever you get your podcasts! https://bit.ly/TLP-462 Key Takeaways [01:29] Linda shared that before becoming a confidence coach, she was an organic farmer growing specialty vegetables for local restaurants. But ten years ago, she realized she was in the wrong business. She knew she wanted to make an impact, and rather than judge that desire as grandiose, she owned it and began her personal transformation journey. [03:10] Linda explains fear always has a reason. It stems from life experiences, cultural influences, and how we were raised. People might have been bullied, overlooked, or told to stay silent growing up—leading to ingrained beliefs like "It's not safe to be seen." Fear, she says, isn't the enemy; it's a messenger from the past. [06:16] Jim prompted the distinction between self-awareness and self-acceptance. Linda encouraged us to love the sound of our own voices—not to dominate but to take up space with intention. She frames presence as a balance between owning the moment and celebrating others' moments in the spotlight. [08:23] Leadership moments aren't always obvious. Linda encourages leaders to view these moments as service, not performance. If your voice might help move things forward, step in. The environment matters too—leaders must foster psychological safety if they expect others to contribute meaningfully. [13:01] Though she has a background in expressive arts therapy, Linda identifies as a coach. She helps people resolve deep-seated fears using tools like EFT (tapping), creative visualization, and inner forgiveness. Her process isn't traditional therapy—it's based on what worked to dissolve her own fear of being seen. [20:28] Linda explained that vulnerability looks different depending on the context—on stage vs. team meetings vs. watercooler chats. Her own experiences showed that being human—forgetting a point during a talk or making a mistake—can deepen connection and make you more relatable and trustworthy. [24:05] Jan asked how Linda helps leaders shift from fixed to growth mindset. Linda shared she overcame her fear at age 60. Her advice: start small, build confidence with tiny wins, and remove what's blocking you. Once the fear is cleared, skill-building becomes easier. "This is your life," she says. "Live it fully." [26:59] Linda wrapped with a powerful reminder: be your own best supporter. Silence your inner critic and give yourself permission to speak. Slow down, enunciate, and let your voice reflect the value of your message. People want to hear you—believe that, and speak like you do. [29:08] And remember..."We don't always have an accurate view of our own potential. I think most people who are frightened of public speaking and can't imagine they might feel different as a result of training. Don't assume you know how much potential you have. Sometimes the only way to know what you can do is to test yourself." - Scott Adams Quotable Quotes "Fear is not the villain. Fear is a messenger." "We need to not feel the pressure that we have to be a 10-year experienced speaker when we are just starting out." "Self-expression and speaking is your human design." "It's never too late. I overcame my fear of speaking when I was 60 years old." "The world opens up to you when you remove all the blocks." "Be your biggest advocate. Your staunchest supporter." "If we're going to bother to say it, let our words be heard." "Perfect does not make us human." This is the book mentioned in this book Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Linda Ugelow Website | www.lindaugelow.com Linda Ugelow YouTube | www.youtube.com/user/lindaugelow Linda Ugelow TikTok | @lindaugelow Annotated Speaker Preparation Checklist to feel grounded, focused, and energized when you speak. www.lindaugelow.com/rituals Delight in the Limelight podcast | https://lindaugelow.com/ditl-podcast Linda Ugelow Facebook | www.facebook.com/linda.ugelow Linda Ugelow LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/lindaugelow Linda Ugelow Instagram | @lindaugelow

In this episode, Jim and Jan dive into the critical aspects of leadership and talent development in today's fast-changing work environment. They discuss how companies often seek "unicorn" candidates with unrealistic expectations—and why focusing on core traits like emotional intelligence, curiosity, and continuous learning is essential. Jim and Jan explore how hybrid work is reshaping the workplace and why relationship-building, trust, and clear expectations are key to fostering strong teams. They also examine how job seekers and employers often set themselves up for failure by chasing perfection. Jim and Jan Jan also offer practical advice on how to set clear career and hiring expectations, why adaptability is critical, and how small shifts can create big growth opportunities. If you're leading a team, looking to hire, or thinking about your own career moves, this conversation offers a practical, honest look at what really matters—and what doesn't. https://bit.ly/TLP-461 Key Takeaways [01:41] Jim explained that companies often search for "unicorns"—candidates who meet every requirement, even unrealistic ones. Jan emphasized that a core leadership responsibility is attracting, selecting, and developing talent—not just hunting for perfection on paper. [03:05] Jim and Jan agreed that many hiring managers are too focused on what candidates lack instead of what they bring. Jim pointed out that companies over-index on skills and miss out on key attributes like curiosity and a willingness to learn—traits that often matter more long term. [06:03] Jim noted that just like companies are looking for unicorn candidates, job seekers are hoping for unicorn employers. Jan laid out four traits to watch for in great talent: passion and purpose, a mindset of continuous learning, emotional intelligence, and the ability to build strong networks. [08:19] Jim talked about the difficulty of building relationships in a remote setting—especially without emotional intelligence and strong listening. Jan compared early career years to middle school: it's when people learn how to navigate politics, influence, and presence. That kind of social learning took a hit during the pandemic. [10:45] Jim predicted that smaller cities might thrive post-pandemic due to shorter commutes and easier transitions back to the office. He sees hybrid work staying, but believes 20-somethings still need in-person time to develop foundational business skills. Jan added that many teams are struggling with connection and accountability. He emphasized that relationship-building can't be hacked—it takes real time, trust, and personal conversations about more than just work. [14:31] Jim shared a story of young professionals rejecting work based on industry, pointing to unrealistic expectations. Jan reminded listeners that companies hire to solve problems, not to fulfill career wish lists. They discussed the importance of setting clear expectations upfront and embedding key traits like initiative into the hiring process. [16:46] Jan stressed that avoiding early-career sacrifices often limits options later on. Jim explained that career growth follows a narrative arc: in your 20s, your value is effort; in your 40s, it's your experience; and later, it's wisdom. Each stage requires a different approach. [20:08] Jim raised the issue of age bias in tech and why staying visible matters. Jan agreed—saying that visibility is key to growth. He advised looking at who gets promoted and understanding what behaviors and values those people have in common. [23:49] Jan recommended using the Topgrading method when hiring, which emphasizes past performance over future potential. He highlighted three key things to assess: impact, influence, and cultural fit. Setting clear expectations during interviews is critical. [26:45] Jan brought up a striking stat—the largest voting gap in the last election was between educated women and uneducated men. Jim clarified that he wasn't suggesting anyone should "settle" in relationships. Instead, both agreed that knowing your non-negotiables is essential and that no partner—or hire—is perfect. [27:52] Jan explained that mismatched expectations usually come down to poor communication. Most people talk more than they listen, and few ask the right questions. Interviewing is a skill—one that both sides often fail to prepare for. [29:15] Jim encouraged listeners to focus on what really matters and avoid perfectionism. He warned that "perfect is the enemy of progress," especially when making hiring decisions or career moves. Overthinking often leads to doing nothing. [30:14] Jan shared a coaching example where a leader needed to clarify expectations around initiative. Not everyone grows—and if they don't, they may no longer be a fit. He pointed out that adaptability is critical, especially in today's ever-changing, chaotic environment. Organizations evolve fast, and employees must be willing to shift with them. Jim agreed—saying that people who enter a company with their own fixed agenda often struggle to adapt. [32:54] And remember..."A man travels the world over in search of what he needs and returns home to find it." - George A. Moore Quotable Quotes "One is to get results. Two is to behave and act according to the core values... But there's a third leg and that third leg is to attract and select talent. And then once you have them, to develop and retain said talent." "People just aren't finding what they're looking for. But on the flip side, employees are also looking for the unicorn employer, you know, something that doesn't exist." "If people aren't able to develop power and influence in the organization, they are not going to get stuff done... They're going to have to be able to negotiate and sell ideas." "There's no hack to accelerate the development of relationships other than spending time with people." "The interview you're about to do is not about you. It's about their problem." "Everybody's hired for the same purpose. Get and keep customers." "A good life is lived in the service of other people." "You got to realize your value isn't from hard work, your value is from wisdom and knowledge and experience." "what really transpires between people looking for the perfect person and people looking for the perfect company is there's misaligned expectations." "So, you know, for expectations to be aligned, you know, both sides have to do their homework and prepare, ask a lot of questions, be good listeners." "Perfect is the enemy of Progress." "not every position needs a perfect person." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com TLP376: The Key to an Uncommon Company with John Harrington and Dave Pickhardt

Susan Kelsey has authored four historical books and produced the award-winning documentary, "The Negotiator: Billy Caldwell." In this episode, Susan shares her journey of discovering Billy Caldwell, the "Great Negotiator" of early Chicago. She reflects on the leadership lessons she learned from both Caldwell and Native American leaders, focusing on values like moral courage, tenacity, and the importance of handling success and failure with grace. Through her work with Native American tribes, Susan has gained a deeper understanding of leadership—one rooted in respect, curiosity, and self-awareness. She talks about the vital role storytelling plays in leadership and how it can make complex ideas more relatable. Driven by a lifelong curiosity, Susan shares how her hands-on experiences, like earning her pilot's license and working on documentaries, continue to shape her perspective on leadership and learning. Tune in to hear her insights on the wisdom of elders, the value of cultural understanding, and how these lessons inform modern leadership today. https://bit.ly/TLP-460 Key Takeaways [04:06] Susan's journey with Billy Caldwell began after noticing a plaque in her neighborhood. Over 30 years, she learned about Caldwell's role as a negotiator between Native Americans and European settlers, shaping Chicago's history. Caldwell's unique position allowed him to influence key treaties, including the 1829 and 1833 Treaties, which played a major role in the region's development. [07:03] Susan described Billy Caldwell as the "ultimate glue guy," bridging cultural gaps between Native Americans, military settlers, and Europeans. His ability to understand both worlds helped him play a key role in negotiating important treaties for the Chicago area. His military background and unique perspective made him a crucial figure in shaping Chicago's history. [09:29] Susan believes strong moral values and the willingness to stand for one's beliefs, even at personal cost, set leaders apart. She emphasized that leaders like Billy Caldwell had the courage to take risks for the greater good. Moral leadership is key to achieving lasting change and making a positive impact. [10:53] Building trust with indigenous tribes took years of effort for Susan, including traveling to Kansas and embracing vulnerability. She learned that respect, curiosity, and open communication are essential in fostering meaningful relationships. Developing trust takes time, but it's vital in working with diverse communities. [13:52] Susan's persistence paid off when the Potawatomi tribe eventually approved her revised documentary. She learned that tenacity is key, especially when working through rejection. A surprising conversation with the tribe revealed that they didn't see the loss of the Great Lakes as a loss, challenging Susan's understanding of their culture. [15:28] Susan emphasized the importance of listening more than speaking in cultural interactions. She explained that silence is highly valued in indigenous communities, and actively listening can build trust. Reflecting back what's heard fosters stronger relationships and a deeper understanding. [18:38] When Jan asked about her motivations, Susan revealed that lifelong curiosity drives her pursuits. She believes true learning comes from hands-on experiences, not just books or videos. Her curiosity led her to earn a pilot's license to confront her fear of flying, highlighting her need to fully immerse herself in new experiences. [19:47] Susan never tires of filmmaking, as it allows endless creativity. She loves collaborating with Native American musicians to create meaningful soundtracks for her documentaries. Despite the high costs of filmmaking, she finds ways to fund her projects and emphasizes that the value of a story doesn't depend on the budget. [21:07] Susan learned timeless wisdom from her work with Native American cultures, especially regarding grace in leadership. Handling both victories and defeats with dignity leaves a lasting impression. She learned this lesson through political mentors and experiences with Native American tribes, emphasizing grace as essential in leadership. [23:09] Susan explained that Native American cultures view leadership as more than survival—it's about self-awareness. The Blackfoot Indians' perspective on Maslow's hierarchy, which prioritizes self-awareness over basic needs, challenged Susan's thinking. This worldview has shaped her understanding of leadership and personal growth. [24:57] Storytelling is a powerful leadership tool, helping leaders connect with others and make complex ideas relatable. Susan stressed that modern leaders should listen to elders, especially in uncertain times, for their valuable insights. Native American cultures offer wisdom that can guide today's leaders through challenging situations. [27:07] When asked about becoming an elder, Susan shared that the title is a great honor in Native American cultures. Elders are respected for both their age and the wisdom they have gained over time. She contrasted this respect with how older generations are often treated in other societies, underscoring the value of experience. [28:26] Susan's documentaries aim to spark meaningful conversations and encourage people to learn from one another. She highlighted the importance of curiosity and education in her work. Slowing down and reflecting on new ideas can provide valuable insights in today's fast-paced world. [30:41] And remember..."When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes, they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home." - Chief Tecumseh Quotable Quotes "We just need to be curious about each other, learn about each other and respect each other and... and develop that trust where we can have a nice, healthy, honest conversation." "How you hold yourself and the grace that you have is what people will remember." "We know who we are, we know where we came from, we know where we're going, and so we know if we know who we are, we can do anything. We can find food, we can find shelter, we can build community." "Slow down a little bit. You can back up, even put it down for a day, come back, look at it the next day. Perspective." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Susan Kelsey Website | http://susankelsey.com Susan Kelsey's award-winning documentary, The Negotiator: Billy Caldwell. | thebillycaldwellmovie.com Susan Kelsey Facebook | www.facebook.com/susan.kelsey.39 Susan Kelsey LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/susanlkelsey