A Trauma Survivor Thriver’s Podcast

This is a LIVE replay (edits made due to technical difficulties) of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Tuesday, June 13th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Today’s guest is Aaron Johnson, Co-Founder of Holistic Resistance and Grief to Action and Creator of The Chronically Under Touched Project. ------------------------------ Lorilee Binstock  00:00:43  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside Chat, where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I'm Lorilee Binstock, your host. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest questions by requesting to hop on stage or sending a message in the chat box. I will try to get to everybody, but I do ask that everyone be respectful. Today's guest is Aaron Johnson, creator of the chronically under touched project and cofounder of the holistic resistance and grief to action. Aaron, thank you so much for joining me today. Can you hear me okay? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:01:50  It's good to Lorilee Binstock  00:01:52  Hello, Aaron? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:01:52  it's little soft, but I can hear you better now. Lorilee Binstock  00:01:54  Oh, you can hear let me make sure you can hear me just fine. Is Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:01:59  I'll get you now. Yeah. That's great. Lorilee Binstock  00:02:00  Oh, good. Good. Good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:02:06  No. It's good to be here. Lorilee Binstock  00:02:07  I I know it's it's you typically, we have our shows on Wednesdays, but, you know, it's one of those weeks where if my kids lost last day last day of school tomorrow, and I didn't realize they'll be getting out extra early because they typically get out early on Wednesdays. I am very excited to have you on, and I wanna talk a little bit about the chronically under touch project. Could you talk a little bit about that? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:02:32  Yeah. It's probably one of the most ambitious projects I have entered into over the last seven years, and it's a project that's really tracking. Right now, I'm focusing on African heritage men because of their how they're targeted, but we've expanded and worked with a lot of folks, but it's really about tracking the magnitude, the impact of being chronically under touched. And how it bleeds into mental health. It bleeds into complication on the cassette and relationship spaces. It it it impacts folks in that are incarcerated, folks that can be arrested because of their chronic index trauma stories and how it manifest in their lives. And then how oppression kinda doubles down on that. And so the Crokonetouch project is me slowing down in community. What it means to build a comprehensive touch plan for a body in this context in this moment. I'm working heavily with this young black man, how we build a photonic comprehensive touch plan for them, and where where do they go? How do we build it? How do we get ahead of it? How do we even introduce the idea? So it's a it's a big project, but it's it's really profoundly impacting my life and the folks I'm able to work with. Lorilee Binstock  00:03:44  Amazing. Well, can you talk what do you mean when you when you say chronically undertouched? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:03:51  Yeah. So there's a couple ways we track it. I would say a big portion of population is chronic and in touch, but we with the spectrum that was all extreme, my first kind of birth the phrase and kind of really understood the magnitude of what happens to a body and to individual that is crunching a touch. It was a young man I was working with seven years ago, and he Me and him were in this, like, mentorship. I was mentoring him, and I was trying to bring him to a space of balance. And we were in arguments almost daily. I remember sitting down with him one day trying to find a groundings base. And I said, you know, when was the last time you had thoughtful platonic touch over the last twelve months for three minutes? Hey, Seth there. Now maybe I'm sitting there and going, I can't think of three minutes in the last twelve months that I've received thoughtful, photonic touch. And as extreme as that might actually feel, that was actually pretty normal. For a lot of folks I met thereafter. Is that being under touch on that extreme level? You can't even think of three minutes of thoughtful platonic continuous touch, that would be that would be a pretty heavy level. And I would say, you know, average person would need for just nervous and balance fifteen minutes of thoughtful but tonic touch, and many folks qualify there of not getting that. So there's a way of just tracking the the impact of on different bodies, different demographics, the economic levels, the impact. But the for him, I would say, anyone that's in that level of three minutes a year or less, that's extreme, but that's that's chronic, and that's serious. And we need to get to get ahead of that and build some thinking around it. Lorilee Binstock  00:05:33  And do you mean hugging, hand holding? Is it consecutive? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:05:39  Yeah. We want I mean, ideally, is consecutive. Right? Ideally, we are dealing with folks that it's it's it's continuous for three minutes. I mean, most hugs are five to eight seconds, and so it would take a lot of hugs to get to the three minute mark. So I think for me being able to realize hand holding is one of our common entry points for a lot of the people I work with, we just practice Lorilee Binstock  00:05:49  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:06:01  simple hand holding and and holding attention to our bodies in that process. So handhold is a common way. We often have a sit and hold hands because the trauma story of walking and holding hands is black sis, and and the chronic ways is really complicated. My culture is still sitting and dropping to our bodies in more meditative space is the most common way we have been able to build thoughtful touch plan for folks, but it also goes shoulder to shoulder back to back, cuddling all those are advanced, but we we start with the handholding typically in our in our program. Lorilee Binstock  00:06:29  I wonder, like, as as an adult, I'm thinking. Am I am I am I touched for three minutes at a time? And and it's interesting when you you talk about touch and how important it is because, you know you know, when your your child is born or when a child is born, they, you know, most I mean, not necessarily hospitals, but, you know, let's say, for me, I worked with Adula, and the first thing they they talk about is putting the child on your body. How important it is to Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:06:56  Yep. Lorilee Binstock  00:06:59  to have that release of oxytocin. And and I guess that's that's the same way as adults, but we don't really think about it that way. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:07:07  No. Unfortunately, and and working full time and having bigger trans players can push us out of even though it's in the magnitude of what happens over time. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:16  Wow. Well, I wanna get back to that a little bit more, but you are also the cofounder of the holistic resistance and grief to action. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:07:25  Yes. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:26  Can you talk a little bit about the holistic resistance and and your purpose? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:07:27  Yeah. Yeah. Holistic resistance is the umbrella org. It really supports our nonprofit arm of grief to action, and it definitely is helping fund and organize the cut project, holistic resistance is our oldest organization, and it does some specific things. Holistic resistance is about dismancing oppression at every level. We realized that we can't take it all on, but we really wanted to notice that oppression hits the the nervous system hits the body, hits the community, hits you know, so we realized I remember I was sitting in the car, and we were talking with the fellow activists, and they were expressing there in college at the time was like, Erin, I'm doing all the right things. I'm I'm going to college. I'm trying to and the impression still comment It's like I'm holistically oppressed and I remember looking at them going. We have to holistically resist, and we both froze. Like, Wait a minute. What did you say? I said, holistically resist. Write down. Write down. Write down. Hosting resist. And we really thought about it for a couple of months and said, like, what does it mean to resist with our money? To resist with our care for the environment, to resist with our relationships, to resist with how we eat our food, not that we can nail it every single time, but it's tracking all the ways that Oh, question can come for us how do we push back? And so, mostly, holistic resistance is a the economic structure is it teaches workshops. And we do consulting. We do one on one programs, and we do facilitate training programs. And so in that, that's kind of the the entry point into this mounting oppression, but we also do song circles, which is a profound place for us to be reclaimed the voice. And we do a lot of encouragement around natural building, minimalist living, I live in a tiny house. The host of resistance says, how can we find simple, practical, accessible ways to build village around this mounting oppression? That's kind of the the the mission statement and the marching orders that we we we walk and go forth with holistic resistance. Lorilee Binstock  00:09:24  Well, how do you do that? I can imagine. That's a that's a Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:09:27  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:09:28  in in in the world we're living right now. And right now, it it that's quite a challenge and and and quite a mission. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:09:36  Yeah. Yeah. It will we will we wanna be practical about it. Right? We're not we're not gonna be on every day to we I I remember I was in film school, and I was talking to my film director, and we were like, well, March the worst is, like, twenty on years ago. Walmart's the worst. You don't wanna get anything from Walmart. Now they're like what? By the time we're like, Walmart's the worst, and he's like, you know, but they have cameras or really good prices. As a radical filmmaker, go buy a camera from Walmart and make a good documentary, even if you're taking Walmart, use the system at times, when you have to. Right? You're you're a, you know, a broke college student. You need to make a camera. Don't not go to Walmart and buy your camera. Go buy it, and then go make your bomb film, and then make that film Guirteenth in Walmart. Lorilee Binstock  00:10:25  Yep. Well, you know, that's interesting my friends used to because my that I have friends who have issues with certain companies, and they won't they won't purchase, but there are those moments where they're just like they have to. Right? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:10:35  I have a small footprint. Yeah. You know, you can be in apartment. You can be in the house, but the idea is that we're just we're working constantly orient ourselves. Lorilee Binstock  00:10:38  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:10:44  As accessible to be aware of oppression. When we can step forward and make a big move, we do. I would say if you have five million dollars, donate it if you have five dollars on it, it's all towards the same dismantling. Is we do what we are able to do and not try and get too much to a high stance. So I just just just really being able to track and just notice how a person shows up and how you can live a lifestyle continuously to adjust against it when it makes sense for your nervous system and your lifestyle that that you can do. So that's the That's the I'm not here to tell people to sell their house and move to off grid spaces in order to be host resistance. It's not at all. It's more about finding that space of, like, I wanna be a part I wanna make sure I'm resisting, not just in my marching, not just in my donations, not just in my cow, obviously, my kids, but we're trying doing all the ways I possibly can. We're trying to have a a more holistic approach to a dismantling no question. Lorilee Binstock  00:11:34  Well, I wanted to talk about and you focus on African Americans specifically African American men and the LGBTQ Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:11:43  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:11:45  plus communities. Would that is that something that you thought Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:11:50  Yes. Lorilee Binstock  00:11:54  was extremely important to you? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:11:57  It's the hardest group to reach for often times with it comes to building out ecosystems of any kind of resistant structure. Those that are targeted by oppression oftentimes have less money resource, less time. They're they're really busy surviving oppression. So trying to focus on them as a group we support and allied ship with, we found to be a good starting point. How we supported white folks in this work, of course, how we supported Latinx folks in this work and all of the people at low majority we definitely have, but we find that Even though I'm a black man, I will have three gatherings in a given year, and two be African heritage ones, and the the ones that are the biggest economic investment oftentimes gathering people to low majority in African agriculture specifically just because they have to, like, get childcare and navigate oppression and travel costs country, like, there's a way that we have to just track them. And so I always start with the group that I find is oftentimes the hardest access to. If I say a cuddle party and say, anywhere in California, I'll get thirty white folks to show up to that event. If I say cut a party and say black men, We got you know, we'll get five, and that's a crowd. Right? And we'll get eight, and that's that's you're winning because it's such a a targeted space. So I know I can have a club authority in the prom anywhere in the West Coast and have thirty white women show up. Lorilee Binstock  00:13:15  Yeah. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:13:24  And, one, maybe queer, personal global majority, and maybe African heritage. And I could also have a couple of partner I'm not gonna hardcore for, and I'll get five black men going out. I'm gonna try this out. This seems kinda strange because I've never seen it before. I'm gonna try, like, we just try and track those groups if this becomes a high calorie burn from the show up and believe it happens because we see more if I have a boxing club or a basketball club or a wrestling club or some kind of after kind of aggressive sport, we can crowd that with black male bodies and and and male bodies. But when you say tenderness, you wanna say closeness, you wanna say cuddles, Lorilee Binstock  00:13:37  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:13:56  cuddles and black men by us on Google, but now now you're talking about things you cannot Google. I can Google black men even be executed in the street, but I cannot Google Tusa black men sitting in a public space just tentatively being with each other in the United States. Outside this country is more common, but in the United States, Now you're talking about it really bad o'clock. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:15  Well, how do you reach out to those groups, the LGBT groups, and the African American men specifically for something of, like, a cuttle party, and I wanna get to that too. I wanted to know more about the the cuddle party, but how are you reaching out? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:14:29  Yeah. Yeah. So holistic existence was born out of mentorship program. So we were mentoring black men. So I already had a critical mass of black men that I had mentioned over the years. And so I kind of started with those folks that I already were working with, and my mentorship group was more about, like, how to keep them out of jail, how to get them jobs, how to get them cars, how to get them, like, this but, you know, their your feet under them to keep going into society. So that was a that kinda that that is a crowded field. When you say mentorship, that is the actual profile. Credit field. So then I'm not filled where you got them all in one space. This organically from the years of doing this work, I mentor for almost fifteen years before I birthed, holistic resistance. When I did that, I had a little bit of a a color profile, and then I in in touring. So I'm on tour right now. So I'm traveling. Like, tonight, I'm flying to Colorado. I'll be in Denver, and I'm going after after Denver four days, I'll be in North Carolina from North Carolina back in Los Angeles. Working with three black men project with Resma, Menacom. And and so for me, I am I am literally going to Denver. I'm getting three black men to connect with. The East Coast, I get twenty. Then I go LA up, but I get a hundred and twenty hopefully. Right? So I I'm really going to where they're gathering in presenting my my idea and a practice, and and out of a hundred men, you'll get ten up. Like, I'm into it. And oftentimes, who have been a big ally is black women. Black women have had been partnered with black men. They're they're hearing about my project. They're going, my husband needs to talk to you. My son needs to talk to you. My my brother has talked to you. So black women have been by far the biggest supporters of the Kroger Touch project, and, also, other folks are in, like, mixed relationships. Lorilee Binstock  00:16:00  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:16:10  I just talked to a person who's in my silently treat this weekend. That says, I have a partner. He's dark, but he's not out there. He's just Latin American, but his dark I see his Tucano. I didn't advise Tucano, and he's dark, and he could use his program. So there's a way that a lot of partners are coming to me. I I I I think that would be if I would say that what's the secret ingredient to making it work right now is black women. Black women are are really the champions of spreading the word. I'm getting more text and calls and emails from black women. And about their partners and or or or from the black man because their partner, you need to call you need to email him there. She email the cut project. It does stop getting this support, and it's really helpful because I think these black men are showing up really wanting something like this, but it's never seen in it available. Lorilee Binstock  00:16:56  Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Do you go after other organizations or companies to try to promote this? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:17:06  Yeah. So I'm I'm hitting the bat everybody. But, yes, So I work with because the holistic resistance, we do a lot of consulting work with, like, yoga studios, and we work with just different orgs throughout the last ten years or seven years, almost seniors. And so I'm constantly letting them know that I'm available to offer this project consulting work. And so the three men three black men project in Los Angeles is the biggest collaboration, I have to date with the ResMA being one of the, you know, New York Times best selling author of grandmother's hands. And so this is the biggest I would say he's the biggest, like, Allyship person that's been, like, I wanna back this. I wanna support this. I wanna join. Unless you come in let invite you into our conference. So I would say, yes. That would be our biggest. I I just talked to a couple of folks that sent me contacts from folks in Denver, actually, that some retired NFL players that wanna talk to me about this project as well. And I'm really excited talking to folks that have been you know, on this, like, perform at the highest level of athleticism in football. That's, like, the the biggest native of the black brute, you know, narrative to see how they can think about tenderness football is like the opposite of tinnitus. So talking to retired NFL players would be one of my goals. So I I don't think I'll ever join or or collab with NFL because we're kind of the the poor offices of each other. But folks that have kind of retired or or or left that system, I'm really interested in talking to them. So I'm really used to talking about folks that are retired from Lorilee Binstock  00:18:21  Yeah. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:18:31  these high levels of aggression to think about where is the tenderness in their experience and how do they build that up and how does their personas athlete hurt or hinder their Tinder photonic experience with the black men. Lorilee Binstock  00:18:44  What about colleges? I feel like our schools Is that also something that you're reaching out to? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:18:54  Yeah, colleges are huge. I haven't had a big success in Uniti, but I think this is a matter of time once I get a good like, contacts into the college that thought they have that that space, like a good sorority or a group, or people that really are thinking about this stuff. But I haven't made big context for colleges yet, but that would be a great I imagine that'd be a great place to drop into because of the the age bracket that the challenge of the colleges is that the ecosystem is Pacific. You know, they they have a Pacific way to enter those spaces. And so I'm trying to find the the most freely liberating way to enter to a college. But, yeah, I think colleges are gonna be a great demographic to target here soon. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:29  Yeah. I would think so. And, you know, I wanted to talk about, like, DI, our diverse equity inclusion, And I I know that you kind of you kind of work around that anti racism work. And and going back to schools, you know, actually, my daughter's school. She's in elementary school. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:19:49  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:53  They actually have a DI representative at their school. Do you think that that Yeah. I know. It's really cool. It's it's it's she's been there for several years. She's amazing. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:20:00  Wow. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:06  And I know that you kinda talk about some common mistakes that companies make. So I kinda wanna talk a little bit about that, like, common mistakes that companies make with doing DAI and anti racism work. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:20:11  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:18  But I also kinda I'm I'm curious to what what you think about hap hap schools doing it as well. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:20:23  Yeah. Yeah. I work with a lot of like, I work with Oakland Unified multiple schools in their districts. So I work with Palm Springs. I work with a lot of schools over the years. Schools are amazing, first of all. And challenging when it comes to the eye space. It's a very evolving industry in Howard. It's a powerful place that we transform young folks and teachers' environment, and it's also a place where you have specific limitations. But one of the things I would say when it comes to schools and common mistakes, that schools can make or we should be watching for as parents and as participants, and then also, like, organizations that are, like, doing DI work where they can oftentimes stumble. I think school specifically is DI work is probably one of the most sacred places to do it if I can even say that out loud because students, minds are being shaped. And so being having a diverse and thoughtful curriculum, having a classroom that is tracking all the bodies in there and all the people in all identities, and there is is is is a high task coming out of, like, the last twenty years, but it's an important task to have. The thing I think schools make how those mistake was oftentimes what what frame is a mistake is they're oftentimes reactionary. So they'll oftentimes call in a DI person after the harm is done, and the oftentimes fight for budget after damage is done. And that's that's kinda common in most industries, but in schools, it feels particularly painful. You could talk about young young combines oftentimes and they're young experience. And so it feels really like it's it's always a eighty percent time is reactionary. So there's some kind of way that a a teacher or a district gets tune some of the mistakes until they get they get invited to a big conversation. They come in with it. Every once in a while, we get some schools that wanna get ahead of it, but generally speaking, it's a reactionary. So I think one of the first things I think is that it has to be framed more as a essential part of the whole educational experience, and that's what that has to it has to have damage before I respond. So that's what comments that I see. The second thing I would say is they demand help us require the people to get trainings. And I think that's important because the teachers already overworked a lot, and it's hard for them to show up to things. But I think there's a way to give staff options to leave, the AI training means if they don't have the capacity to be there. I see that because when you force your audience to be there, they're just going through the motions. And I rather have five teachers that are hearing, fighting, ready to go than tin there, like, on their laptops trying to figure how to not be in the room. Because this is life saving work. This is like CPR. If we're gonna do CPR and you're gonna be in your laptop and someone has a specialty in your classroom, you know, like, what happened? There are students that are that are losing their lives on multiple levels because they don't have a full comprehensive support around their identities and their experience and their education experience in a very vulnerable time. And so for me, I feel like the urgency oftentimes is a there's a song I remember seeing as It says there's a fire in the mountain, no one seems to be on the run. That's how I feel oftentimes that I smell the smoke. I see the fire, but it was relaxed. Until the fire gets so big. It's so, you know, starts taking lives, and we start getting get get excited by it. So I'm like, I I wanna see us Lorilee Binstock  00:23:31  Close. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:23:36  get prepared before the smoke is in the air. And so that's the thing that I often will will encourage. The last thing I'll say that often's a common mistake, and I I say this often, but people will kinda go past this quickly, and that is speed. I think people underestimate how much time it takes to shift the culture at a school in a classroom. And oftentimes time also means more money, but I would say that it's better to do a methodical, thorough DI experienced in a weekend to solve thirty years of dysfunction. So I think the realistic of time makes sense. If anyone wanted to lose, like, fifty pounds in a gym, they don't go to the gym in a week, and they go, hey. I got a, you know, important date next week. If you didn't get me in this gym and workout, lose fifty pounds. And you train them, but, like, get out of here. I'm not a surgeon. This is it takes it takes months, a bunch of years to drop that kind of improvement on the body or shift in your in your whatever you're doing. And I think DI, all the same category we have energetic a lot to burn off our our our move through our systems, shape us, and we don't have that kind of investment. There's a there's a it's kind of an unbalance of how much time it takes to really heal and notice and then start building comprehensive, custom healing practice for that school, and that's the disconnect in that region. Lorilee Binstock  00:24:49  Absolutely. I think that that you're you're right. I feel like in in a lot of places, having having a DEI representative come in would be very much reactionary. So I do feel fortunate because I I think they they designated my daughter's school's d EI rep years ago. And she's not she's just she's she there she goes into classrooms. There she brings in a topic, Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:25:16  Wow. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:21  and it's and it's amazing. And so yes. And I think I think I I feel like and I live in a very progressive area. I'm in Washington, DC. Extremely progressive. And so there's there are a lot of companies that also have DEI Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:25:31  Okay. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:36  reps, and and so I think that's that's Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:25:37  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:39  really, really amazing. But in in other places of the country, obviously, there there's still some some struggle and some issues and actually really educating and talking about this this topic. Right? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:25:57  Mhmm. Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:59  And and, you know, one of the questions I wanted to ask was what is the shaping force of the black experience in America. And and if we could also throw in, like, LGBTQ as well if that if if we can. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:26:10  Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when I look at the shaping force, that is when one of the things that has kept me up at night. You know, there's a way that you grow up and you see your parents and your family, and you just like our eating breakfast going to school, trying to find who runs faster, and and maybe you got a new belt or whatever is hot in your age at that time, and and you don't notice because you're you're eight, you're ten. You don't notice that you're being shaped. And so when I look at the black experience in America, I I try to say, what is what are the things I see that are shaping all of us towards a certain direction where events Lorilee Binstock  00:26:37  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:26:48  or structural things in place that that are thematically shaping black bodies in America. And one of the things I was tracking is because I'm forty one. It's been forty one in May. And one thing I track is that I went to school and high school in the nineties. Right? And what I track is there was a space where I remember living Lorilee Binstock  00:27:05  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:27:07  without handheld tech like cellphones, especially in high school didn't have a cell phone. Right? And so by the time I got into college and started having more tech, and when I saw store shipping forces, not just we got tech. Lorilee Binstock  00:27:12  Yeah. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:27:19  But it's how black bodies show up in tech. How are we not just in, like, a tech industry with a hold of a conversation, but on all the platforms with a common theme of how American culture wants to extract the black experience or show the black experience and how does that shake my experience. And one of the things I saw that's still intact is one of the biggest shaping forces of black male bodies in this culture is athleticism. And sports. And not just, like, oh, yeah. I play sports and high school. I play football too, but really is is how much America stops thinking about valuing black bodies after their bias are not used for either hypersexual activity or athletic activity. Once we get past that point, we stop thinking with a handful of, like, Obama who surprises, like, oh my goodness. It'd be president. When we saw this, like, immediate flash pushback against that narrative, it was a shift in our culture to see him become president habit for eight years because a whole different narrative of, like, how we we didn't celebrate the Obama like bodies, the Obama like thinkers as a collective culture. Obama did surprise and was interested about that as a shooting force. And black bodies is how Obama was the perfect timing wise, but the perfect ideal black body for America, and it was almost too much for America in hindsight. At the time, it was like, Greg, we're we're figuring it out. But I look at his skin tone. I look at his mixed heritage. I look at how how manageable black he was. Right? I have no beef with Obama about how manageable he was as opposed to if we darken his skin a bit. Right? By about five stage, how much that would impact if we added some some some some some language that wasn't so smooth. He had to get communicator that was that was very skilled. He couldn't he couldn't communicate at a level of other other presence that struggle with communication. He would never be president. He had to speak at a certain level. So but the the shaving force is is is when excellence shows up, it can't be too excellent. It can't be too aggressive. So and then there the shooting force is really finding that that that lack of attention for the black body after they they they can't be distracted from easily. So NFL, UFC, the NBA, still the dominant, male domination spaces. Now to expand a bit to the LGBTQ and the and the and the black celebrities to be a little bit outside of my lane, my own name, what happens is that it's echo. There's a complete echo when the black brute is to the dominant most invested in black body in America. It does start to set a similar path, a parallel path for that same community of algebraic community and transmedia as well, because transmedia is is is targeted by black sismin, partly because of our our trauma story around being full human beings too. And so there's a piece where black men had been told, I don't know if you've seen the sign that says I am a man. It was a sign, in fact, in nineteen sixty eight. Trash, nineteen sixties. I'm sure that's the actual date trash protests. The black women walking, you could find it's a very popular I am a man. And you might even heard the phrase that was said historically like, hey. Boy. My stuff. Hey. Boy. Boy was used as a way to diminish the black male. It's been so so black men fought really hard to be men. Like, I wanna be a full man. The same as I wanna be a full human. Right? I wouldn't be a brute I wouldn't be a full human. And then we get to this era now. We're like, Lorilee Binstock  00:30:41  Right. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:30:45  I don't wanna be a male or a female. I wouldn't be non binary. If you're holding that trauma story, you've fought just to be a man, that generation is really shook. Like, how dare you even how how how do you have the privilege of of of of of changing that identity? So so I've been working hard in the cut project to slow down a lot of cis black men around being allies, skillful allies, the civil to the trans community because of how we are weaponized against each other as a very tender tender relationship. And so there's a ripple effect that we're healing from. And I would say we're we're in the beginning stages of understanding the depth of how the parallels between being the black brute and not being seen as a complex emotional being intended, all that's not available. Weaponizes. There's a lot of things, but also can weaponize us against our trans community in a very, very dangerous way. And I've seen some major beautiful progress in that, but there's a way that we're still in the early stages of that. And and and that's also a place where I think we don't discuss enough. And I would say the shaping force, you know, in the LGBTQ community, is I have found the ecosystem is getting stronger. Over the last, say, ten years, let's say, stronger. There's there's government progress. There's financial investment, but there's also legislation flashback right now. So I think shipping force right now is political. Lorilee Binstock  00:32:08  Yeah. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:32:08  It is it is it is political and medical in a lot of ways. There's a way that we've made progress and it's been a clap somebody build, and the lines are being drawn right now. So I think it's a political shaping force. And I'm really invested into knowing how we can see how this kind of political fallout from East Coast to West, how we see bodies, and how we support TransUnion, and how we support the queer community and how we can build allieship because one of the things I constantly see is that we're we're we're we if we aren't careful, we can be a lot of internal collapsing of conflict with each other. And so that's why I'm constantly tracking when I was just at a an event where there's an amazing gathering of folks and it was a some cis black man having a hard time with trans black folks, and it's a white controlled space. And they're like, I don't know what to do. We finally got white people here. Now we have this really complicated conflict amongst the black folks. And this is not new, but it's actually a place where we can actually collapse in our progress of the overall progress because of those kind of intersections appealing that you take place. So saving force is gonna be how we can skillfully build village around these tender places where we have historical pain that's showing up but not being identified until someone tracks it well. So trauma tracking the black group narrative and and transphobia and homophobia and finding ways to land together is gonna be a shipping force, and it is a shipping force right now. Our ability to unify at the numbers we want to see legislation, to see the protection, the medical accessed everybody that is needed. And we have a history of medical damage to black bodies, and it's a we were living through these right now of medical attacks on trans bodies too and and queer bodies. So it's a it's a dance. So I think those are gonna be big chicken forces for us right now in this era. Lorilee Binstock  00:33:49  Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. You know, a lot of things there that that that really came to mind. And then, you know, I do wanna mention, you know, an authentic insider in June's issue. We had our prosecutor's POV. Talk focus on trans in the law, and it's in it's insane how many anti trans bills or or Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:34:12  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:34:12  being introduced, nearly five hundred, Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:34:15  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:34:16  and and and that is it's surprising. And, you know, what what would your organization do or say about it about what is happening right now? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:34:25  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:34:28  Especially during Pride Month. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:34:28  Well, it's interesting. Yeah. I think one of the things that's important is resources. You know, I find that when I look at our ability to move on legislation, our ability to support at the medical space that comes down to skillful ways to create capital, and organize that capital to to interrupt it. We live in a capitalist culture. So I realize right now, there's a a place where funding is needed. I think we have the heart. We have the that we have the the the direction you need to go, I think it's the fuel and that's the finance. And so for me, one of my biggest goals right now is to raise capital to port orgs that are doing it. So for me, I I think bodies on the ground is important. I think showing up and and March is important, but without a sustainable economic structure behind these orgs, we're gonna find ourselves stumbling in the fourth quarter, and I think we really need to be strong in the fourth quarter. So for me, the biggest thing right now is is is painful, and this is almost consistent across all the movements. Is that if you would've saw my email box, the weeks after George Floyd was killed publicly, And any time we have a massive death publicly, we get flooded with either donations or emails, and almost you can set a clock to a three months after the event. Its crickets again. And what's important is that has to be we can't feel resistance only when the media gets excited about it. I get invited to more speaking engagements, some more workshops in black history month, the entire of the year. But last time I checked, trans folks, queer folks, black folks were impressed twelve months out of the year. And so there's a way that I wanna make sure that we show up on the times that our time to show up for always a, you know, pride month or black history month, then And and when things happen in the media, that's important to notice it. But there's a way that the falloff does a lot like American. It's like a snacking snacking resistance. So I would say the most important thing we can do is not have snacks on our resistance, but have a full meal that we're growing from the ground. It takes twelve months to grow, and we cultivate, we water it as consistent. To me, I find that to be one of the biggest things we can do is not let media alone be our motivation to show up for folks that are being talking about oppression. That's one of the the the biggest tricks, I think, that that mainstream culture goes to us is we have so much content coming towards us that we don't understand the methodical work this looks like. It's that same sensation I feel like when I go in as a keynote at elementary school, and the kids are so excited coming in. I b box nice seeing. I tell them some good things. And I leave. You know what real superstars are? Those teachers that show up every single day, Lorilee Binstock  00:37:15  Mhmm. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:37:15  Monday through Friday, those are the ones we should get on our feet for every day, but it's like I see them every day. I think for granted. That's almost under his men's, like, the news comes in like a keynote speaker and goes, hey. How you doing? This thing has happened. Oh my goodness. How bad it is. Watch a couple times. And then we're all and then we all go away. And it but there's no consistency. Right? So for me, that's it. That's it. I'm on tour right now for seven months because methodical. This is methodical movement across the planet. To make sure that we're not just having flashpoint experiences. And so for me, I think that's the piece that I would say we're doing holistic resistance. We're we're encouraging folks. To take off their sprinting shoes, and put on their marathon shoes, drink a lot of water, and get ready for the marathon version of dismantling the system. That with capital, is gonna shift everything. Lorilee Binstock  00:38:04  Yep. Constant education. Just constant constant education. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:38:06  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:38:08  Fantastic. Is there anything that you would like to share that I haven't touched on? Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:38:15  I will say you're talking about everything, but I would say have deep gratitude Lorilee Binstock  00:38:19  No good. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:38:20  around the cup project. And I would say the cup project is we're making a documentary. I kinda referred to earlier, but we're making a documentary. And I just wanna invite folks, like, you know, all the listeners and people in the community that you might know someone that might wanna be in the film or go through the programming document in the process, we're definitely looking for candidates to be in the film of that project, and that feels like an important way to scale the the unglobable images of of a comprehensive photonic touch plan for folks to be available. And I would say, we're also building some cut community workshops coming up next year, we are in the process of a land transfer in Northern California of a hundred eighty nine acres. It's off grid. This is beautiful, beautiful landscape of of nature here in North Carolina. You don't get enough to Anderson Valley, but it's this gorgeous gorgeous forest, and we wanna build relationship with black bodies, people to go majority, to be with the land, to be building a a a confident touch plan with nature. Because one of the things in touch plan is to be close to nature as well and singing. Now, miss singers for singers, singing for everybody. So singing connecting in nature next year because it might as well encourage folks that are interested in that to just, like, reach out, let us know what your interest is, and we'll give you more details on that event. But the cut communities are being built here hopefully, all got United States right now. We're starting to West Coast and we have land here, but West Coast cut community workshops and experiences. So I just wanna invite people to think about that with us, and And if you are unknown that I know DC is a lot of black folks, so unknown unknown black cuttle party isn't happening for black men, I don't know about, please let's talk about it because I'm getting as huge. And so on the West Coast, I think that we are building that that coalition, but it's still an un googled state. And That to me is one of the things I wanna make sure that we're able to make not rare anymore. So I just wanna name that as a a physical to my heart, and so I'm gonna be on your show and pick your path to me. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:09  Well, thank you so much. And and can people find information on on all of the work you're doing at holisticresistance dot com. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:40:19  Yeah. Holizabethses dot com and cut project dot org. Both of those are are places you can find me. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:19  Is that right? Awesome. Yes. I do have holistic, resistance dot com scrolling right there, and where the fortune cookie is. You can actually click on that fortune cookie, and that will go ahead and send you to that website. But, Aaron, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a pleasure. This is our hundredth episode, so I'm I'm honored for you to be here today. So thank you. Aaron JohnsonCut project  00:40:47  Thank you. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:48  That was Aaron Johnson creator of the chronically under touched project and cofounder of the holistic resistance and grief to action For more information on Erin, you can click on that scrolling fortune cookie right there on your screen. We will also have it in the show notes. Also, June's issue of Authentic Insider is out. Checkout Authentic Insider at trauma survivor thriver dot com. That's trauma survivor thriver dot com. If you haven't already, please subscribe to my email list to get authentic insider magazine in your inbox monthly. Well, that wraps up season four of a trauma survivor, Thrivers podcast, but we'll be back in the fall for September in September for season five. Please sign up to our email list to get updates and follow me on social media, you can find those links at traumasurvivorthriver.com. I'm Lorilee Binstock. Again, thank you for being a part of the conversation and joining me for the hundredth episode. Hope to see you in the fall. Take care.

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, June 7th, 2023 at 11:30am ET on Fireside Chat. Today’s guest is Jessica Depatie, Executive Producer of Dark Night of Our Soul. For more information about Jessica Depatie's work, visit https://www.shadowmedia.group/links. Lorilee Binstock  00:00:35  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside chat where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I am your host. Flor then stock. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest questions by requesting to hop on stage, but I do ask that everybody be respect Today's guest is Jessica Defeats executive producer of dark of our soul. She's also the host of shadow work library podcast. And she's is actually a shadow work educator, Jessica, thank you so much. For joining me today. Oh, I think I actually pop you off stage. Are you there? Jessica Depatie  00:01:39  Hi. Can you hear me? Lorilee Binstock  00:01:40  Hi. Yeah I could hear you. How are you? Thank you so much for joining me today. Jessica Depatie  00:01:46  Thank you so much for having me and what's cool off where I'm all about this. Lorilee Binstock  00:01:50  I know it it's actually really, really cool. You people can pop in and pop out and and listen to replay and join in on the conversation, which I really love because I I feel like a lot of people are interested in and taught and talking to a lot of my guests about you know, things that are this that they're doing how people are healing. And you you are a shadow work educator, which I think is really cool. And so I wanna learn more about that, but I also wanna know a little bit about your story and what got you into this work. Jessica Depatie  00:02:19  Okay. Great. So wow where do we start? You know, it's interesting that we're having this conversation on your show, the trauma survivor podcast because my story isn't that remarkable, but I think it's a common I I think that's why it's worth sharing. The lack of Lorilee Binstock  00:02:38  Absolutely. Jessica Depatie  00:02:40  extravagant around it, and more the the universal story that Lorilee Binstock  00:02:47  Yep. Jessica Depatie  00:02:47  everybody has trauma, you know, and the documentary that we're working on right now, one of the experts, Anderson Todd, who is the assistant director of wisdom and consciousness studies out of you know, received Toronto. He says nobody gets out of the parking lot without putting dungeon in the car. Right? Lorilee Binstock  00:03:02  I saw. Jessica Depatie  00:03:04  And so... That is that is my story. Lorilee Binstock  00:03:05  That was I was like that's so accurate. Jessica Depatie  00:03:07  Yeah. And so my story. Is basically growing up I felt like there was a purpose to the trials that I would put myself in, You know? A lot of the traumatic experiences that when my experience happen to us. And it's kind of a fabric the fabric of our human experience. You know, challenges happen. And some are very remarkable in some, like mine are just like, you know, my mom was she's Korean, and she felt strange in a new country, And I adopted that feeling strange but in my own country, you know? And so the traumatic experience that I had was having a really strong platform that I'm Lorilee Binstock  00:04:00  Mhmm Jessica Depatie  00:03:58  not accepted that I am rejected and I would put myself in a lot of situations where I would reject people before it they rejected me, and that was a coping mechanism that I learned later on, by Yeah. For me, was some pretty severe bullying and like, isolation from about the fourth grade, the eighth grade and crystal it myself that I'm weird. I'm unwanted And so Yeah. I just realized in that experience now looking in hindsight and having that really affect me as an adult. I needed to look at what is this? You know? There aren't... There weren't a ton of resources. I Didn't even think I needed a resource. To resolve that. And so that's how I started getting into shadow work. Because as I grew up, got in high school god university. I then realized that I am intentionally putting myself into these situations are harmful for myself. Why am I doing that? Because I'm definitely learning from all these experiences of and is this the way to learn is obstacle really the way? Is there a silver lining to of this? So that's what I've been exploring. Basically, as my life's work since Lorilee Binstock  00:05:09  that's fascinating. You know, that's really interesting. You say, you no, it's not that extravagant, you know, your life story, but your story is Jessica Depatie  00:05:16  Right. Lorilee Binstock  00:05:16  so many other people's stories. I feel like a lot of people you know, where I And in tell many different ways, feel isolated. They feel like an outsider. And they feel different, and that makes them feel weird. And, you know, I've I felt like that as well. I'm a I'm a child of imagery immigrant parent. And it did it did feel. You know, I I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida. And I at that time, there there want a lot of other Filipino in where I live I live by the beach. And so I didn't realize that I would Jessica Depatie  00:05:51  Well Lorilee Binstock  00:05:53  I was different until, you know, Jessica Depatie  00:05:59  eva. Lorilee Binstock  00:05:56  it was pointed out to me and then I was like, oh, I I'm different. I didn't realize that. So I feel like there are people, especially, you know, in fourth grade. That, you know, that feel different, but they don't know why. And I I've I I'm so fascinated. When did you feel? When you were an adult, when you needed to explore this, And how did you decide, like, okay, I'm gonna do shadow work is there someone that you met or you talk to? Who introduce you to this. Jessica Depatie  00:06:27  So I would say when I was younger, I went in a really locked into an observer period. Lorilee Binstock  00:06:36  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:06:35  When might call that dis, but it was very top down experience of my own life. And constantly thinking, like, what is wrong with me that people don't wanna talk to me? At this point right now, I know that it was my own platform, and that I like, created that existence for myself. As a kid, you know, I'm just, like, why am I so weird? Like, what is up with this? And having every lunch but I was just, like, tread research Lorilee Binstock  00:07:00  Mm-mm. Jessica Depatie  00:06:59  adding lunch because I'd have to sit by myself and all of that. And just constantly thinking, like, there's something wrong with me. I have to figure this out. I have to figure this out. So when I went to a different school, in high school. Like, I'm going to be different. I know I'm an extra extroverted person. I know that I can have conversations with people. I know that I'm another version of myself in there somewhere that I have and given myself the option to be Lorilee Binstock  00:07:24  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:07:27  Right? But in doing that, I I hadn't I didn't have any tools. I didn't have any friends and I couldn't or he didn't wanna talk to my parents about it because I wanted them to be proud of me I didn't wanna Lorilee Binstock  00:07:41  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:07:39  tell them that, you know I'm suffering, and I'm like, lonely and all these things the had pride. Right? And so all I had with myself. And with a lack of tools and resources. I turn to drinking So that's kinda of how I got into high school, and to give myself some credit, I did learn quite a bit around social social cues, like socializing my myself in that Lorilee Binstock  00:08:01  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:08:03  But also, with that, I developed a habit of needing booze to access as part of myself. And so with that habit, it followed me into university Again, not a very remarkable story. And I I keep highlighting that because Lorilee Binstock  00:08:20  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:08:18  it's is normalized to drink a lot in college and through high school, but it really isn't. It doesn't have to be that way. And I think these younger generate the ones that are going through it right now, they're understanding that they know more than we did back in the day. Lorilee Binstock  00:08:29  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:08:31  Which is so amazing. But back of my day, you know, like, what did I graduate? You ever university seen, like, ten or so. That was a standard, you know, blocking out every weekend. Was not uncommon. Lorilee Binstock  00:08:40  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:08:43  Right. Lorilee Binstock  00:08:44  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:08:44  Problem. My mom is super psychic. She just me sure So Lorilee Binstock  00:08:50  Oh, that's tiffany. Jessica Depatie  00:08:53  Yeah. I got to a point where I was graduating university I was starting a corporate career and the Salesforce that I joined was really old like, nineties sales floor, everybody in shoes real cool fun hustle, lots of money And with that, drugs alcohol were a thing, but I looked I had the awareness somehow at that point. To be, like, if people are not happy. You know, I'm not trying to be at this company for the next five years and turn into this. And, like, no shade, but not we're trying to go So I realized, like, I'm the only one I can save my myself from this. I haven't created, like, a full on alcohol addiction. You know, I'm like, a weekend warrior. I justify a lot of these things I know I can pull my thought self out of it. So I really dove into what I know now is shadow work, but before was just the exploration, this cultivating of my own experience and pulling myself out having the before I would do the thing, to understand more about about what it is I'm doing. Right? And so that opened me up to a whole world of of shadow work of things like even astrology, which I got really into, which was super helpful to understand my own experience in terms of archetype energies that one's working with. Lorilee Binstock  00:10:15  Mm-mm. Jessica Depatie  00:10:16  Looking into young, even and see what else came up. The taro taro is really interesting. You know? I mean, Lorilee Binstock  00:10:24  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:10:25  look at it from a destination standpoint, which a lot of people wouldn't have subscribe to. But if you look at it just from an type perspective and seeing how your life relate to the images that come. It can be a really great way to expand your consciousness. Lorilee Binstock  00:10:38  Yes. I have this my my husband's grandmother, Jessica Depatie  00:10:43  What Lorilee Binstock  00:10:42  reads tear cards, and she reads mine every once in a while. It's really. It's really fun. I'm like, yes. I'm I'm like, I need it. I need I I need a couple hours with her to do that though because she she she loves to go on, and it's she's really fascinating. Yes. I do love love with you tear. Something I actually saw going through your Instagram feed, Jessica Depatie  00:11:04  Good Lorilee Binstock  00:11:04  I I mean, You know, I was stocking. But I I noticed that you did a lot of work in campbell. I Jessica Depatie  00:11:08  Yeah. Yeah. So in this whole exploration of, like, testing the human experience because, you know, Now so back in the day, I put myself in a lot of dangerous situation and I learned from them. And and when doing it unintentionally, I say intention but I just mean, I put myself there. I didn't have a lot of experiences that happened at me or to me. Right? Lorilee Binstock  00:11:31  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:11:33  I was a creator of my own experience in the very like textbook way. Show in this days of life, where I pulled myself out of the mug out of the trial and air portion. I'm like, okay. How can I actually intentionally test my edges? Of the human experience of my own experience in a way that I've gotten pretty good at doing. I'm I feel very comfortable in the unknown and well to extent and with ambiguity. And so combo, which is for anyone listening that they're not aware of what it is. It's a secretion from a frog that leave it down in South America. And you it was traditionally used for hunting. It's a non psychedelic medicine, and they will harvest the excretion from this frog in a very gentle way so it doesn't create the animal. And then you do several superficial burns into the top layer of your skin. So you're not going into the bloodstream. Very quick little and then you know a facilitator apply this medicine to these burns sites they call gave. And in that experience, it it's really hard. It's like, it cleans out your lymphatic but the feeling sense of it is getting really, really sick. Lorilee Binstock  00:12:51  Mhmm Jessica Depatie  00:12:52  Like if you like getting the flu in the worst way possible for about ten minutes. So it's really short. Most people will purge out of their mouse trail lab. And you're fasting. So you're just throwing up a liquid and need to drink a certain amount of before, or you'll go to the bathroom later or you'll sweat. There are a lot of different ways of purge shake. You might cry. And show, like, why would you even wanna do that? If it's a non losing genetic and you just feel sick? What is the point other than clean with that system. Well, Lorilee Binstock  00:13:23  Tell me more. Jessica Depatie  00:13:24  Yeah. Right. But there's more I promise that just like stuck. It created kind of psychological billion. You know, it and in doing that, to magic of event all the clears out your brain of a lot of the the Bs that's been stuck there. It's like, it's like bio ten hours of meditation in ten minutes. Lorilee Binstock  00:13:45  Mm-mm Jessica Depatie  00:13:48  Now you feel it. It's not a good time, but afterwards, so much clarity in so much space has created between the things that you thought were problems and you're body. So would okay did... Just kind of close the loop on that experience night and embodied kind of practice to go through because it really ground into the present moment. So a lot of times, people will do con before they go into ceremony. For something like Eye because you can be really nervous going into something like that. Know, you have all these things millions intentions, all these fears, which are Lorilee Binstock  00:14:22  Right. Jessica Depatie  00:14:20  perfectly normal because it's such a powerful momentum to work with. Combo and really great thing to do before because it clears you out bringing the present moment, and it can give you that grounded in. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:33  Now. Amazing. Yeah. I I'm a huge job for Alex. I I really credit Jessica Depatie  00:14:43  Yeah Lorilee Binstock  00:14:43  it alex to my own personal healing. I'm a childhood sexual abuse survivor. And so for the longest time, I had no idea what yeah what was wrong with me. I just knew something, you know, I thought, like, okay. Oh, there's a point where I was by diagnosed by bipolar. And I was on, like, lithium and all these medications for, like, ten years, and then I was, like, someone talk to me about Ptsd and sexual abuse, and I was like, If you're not a soldier, you still can get Ptsd. Like, I don't understand. So tell me more. And and then I realized, like, oh I've been struggling with Ptsd. I went to treatment. I just so happened to meet several people in the psychedelic underground and they had helped to me so much in and really understanding. And I think this is where kinda of the shadow work right. You just Jessica Depatie  00:15:34  Oh, Lorilee Binstock  00:15:36  kind of go into the dark places of your soul. Where you... If you are able to experience it or or face it. Is that it would you say that's where post traumatic growth grows from Jessica Depatie  00:15:50  Yeah. That's that's a really good question. So oh, gosh. We're do gonna start with that? So your... Your acknowledgement and the Ptsd is really interesting. You know, it it's Lorilee Binstock  00:16:07  Great. Jessica Depatie  00:16:04  it's interesting to think about a time where that didn't exist. Pdf and a function is always the included, but the name for it, The recognition of it didn't really come about until, like, their late seventies. So a super reset. And interestingly, post traumatic growth was also scientifically typically named and more discovered at the same time. No. You can imagine why Ptsd really took off in terms of acknowledgement versus the growth aspect of it, which I'll get into a second. Which is probably, you know, if I wanna get, like, real talk about it. It it's if you make money keeping people sick. Right? Lorilee Binstock  00:16:46  Yep. Jessica Depatie  00:16:48  And show, hey, something quote that happens to you. You have Ptsd here's diagnosis. Now the benefit of that is clearly these are things that we need to know about because Pt is very, very real. Super real. Right? And also the the acknowledgement that word, but, you know, whatever, like, not the the possible psychological benefit of going through the hard thing. With a sense of agency with the right resources. Is just here as possible because then, you know, maybe you can relate to this when you're diagnosed with something. It that can be crystallize your identity. Lorilee Binstock  00:17:30  Mhmm Jessica Depatie  00:17:32  And so as we've picked up the torch on exploring post traumatic growth again. One of the things that we learned very early on is Ptsd and post growth, Pt, happen up can happen at the same time, You know, growth in the linear. Lorilee Binstock  00:17:49  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:17:49  And what is growth even? That with a huge huge question. That we had to answer if we wanted to create documentary around growth. These definitions that are really difficult to explore. First of all, what is leaving trauma? And what is gross? We know post it after Lorilee Binstock  00:18:07  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:18:07  But trauma. Right? There were so many people with different explanations of what it is. Lorilee Binstock  00:18:13  Yes. Jessica Depatie  00:18:12  And you've heard things like big trauma and little trauma. You know, but it's almost like we give a we put them on a scale, like, little trauma isn't as important as a big t trauma. Well, if it's important to you, you know paint a pain, Lorilee Binstock  00:18:25  Right. Jessica Depatie  00:18:26  Right? And that was something that I still... Like, I even started off this conversation by saying, Oh, my story. Isn't that interesting. Lorilee Binstock  00:18:34  Great. Jessica Depatie  00:18:34  But they knew, it was very interesting. You know? To me, it set my life on a trajectory that I'm very grateful for. But would have been completely different if it didn't exist. And So when we add a a ranking system, to trauma. I think that's when people can sort of check out of that word. They don't like to associate with it because I'm not a victim or nothing really bad happened to me I might be suffering. I might have full blown and Ptsd, but I don't acknowledge it because you know, I don't have Lorilee Binstock  00:19:06  Right. Jessica Depatie  00:19:05  this crazy story. And so the best definition of trauma that we heard came from again, Anderson Todd. Who talked about trauma as a kind of like, when trust is broken, Lorilee Binstock  00:19:22  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:19:22  you know, I trust, and I'm gonna go through so subconsciously my childhood. Being safe. Your example, I I subconsciously trust I'm not gonna be sexually abused that the people that are around me care for me, you know, And sure they may be doing their best and they're they're dealing with life and whatever way possible, but they're not gonna do something that horrible to me. Trusting broken in that when dad tells you she's gonna pick you up from Doctor Pat or be at your soccer game. And he doesn't go over and over and over again. That is can be traumatic, You know? Lorilee Binstock  00:19:53  That it. Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:19:55  Little whatever. But then I become a I can't trust my dad. I can't trust men. I can't trust myself. And so that definition was really helpful moving forward. And then when we talked about grove. Well, the that majority I would actually everybody that was in the documentary also has Ptsd. Right We have veterans that have had long careers are seeing things that no... None of us will ever see we have you know, murder attempt survivors and they still get triggered by things. Right? They still feel serious lows. They still feel like, things are at times unbearable But the way that growth works in the way that we've to find it is an extension of consciousness, which is senior your experience from many different perspectives being able to feel into life. In a very full way. And know was one of the interesting things about this whole thing is that growth doesn't look like the way a lot of people might or conventional wisdom. My say is. It's not necessarily affiliated with achievement. And success and being happy all the time. Lorilee Binstock  00:21:07  Right. Jessica Depatie  00:21:08  Because we're be asking people that have lived experiences of post matter growth that are now of service. They have turned their message into a message more or less. A have, like, Lorilee Binstock  00:21:14  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:21:17  how many deep appreciation for life, they have meaning and they can see meaning and little things that a lot of people that haven't acknowledged the adversity in their life had created more wisdom and all these things, you know, strength, these people that have really identified I push about a growth person. They feel everything. So there's this level of sensitivity as well that like, in not so productive sometimes. You know to go through life like that. But when you have to be do people be level in, which they can feel their high on their lows. They're here for all of it. That one of the things that when we look at the way so work today. Not totally designed for that kind of person. But they wouldn't have it any other way. You know, to be able to have these conversations with people like you. That are affecting positively, so many people that have gone through traumatic experiences you know, if you didn't go through that, then maybe they wouldn't be healing, you know? So there's a out fact of of working with the material that you've been presented in your past life. In a way that is and four, like, the higher good of of future generations. And so that's really... Actually, the whole note that we end on in the documentary is and then the controversial, and it's tricky to say, without a lot of context, but we ask the question. Is it a moral responsibility to acknowledge your trauma to do the shadow work to go into the dark plane to reclaim the pieces of yourself that's been fragmented. You know? Because when we look at the long list of social issues and environmental issues and all the things. Right? Lorilee Binstock  00:23:01  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:23:03  We can see that the answers are to them. Are very short sighted. Now why is that? You know, it's likely because the people that are making these decisions, the policymakers makers politicians to educators, parents, anybody who has any kind of influence we all have something that if we're not doing the inner work, what manifests as our outer life's work, the decisions we make how we show open in the world only have... It has a limitation. So perhaps it is our more responsibility you really look at the things that have happened to us and for us so I wanted to be cliche about it. For future generation. Lorilee Binstock  00:23:44  I absolutely. I love that question. I I and for me, the answer is yes. Right? I feel that you know, you know in in my June issue of authentic insider, a woman writes about by curious resilience. And I feel like when you hear other people's stories when you, you know, other other people it helped other people want to start healing because to be honest, before I actually started my healing journey, I'm I'm like, If you told me about post traumatic growth, I thought I would think you were full of shit. Jessica Depatie  00:24:20  No. Lorilee Binstock  00:24:22  Like, no. This is my life. This is who I am. Now I'm supposed to be sad a lot of most of my life and this is this is it. Because I had just it just couldn't. I could not understand anything other than what I was living in. Until I hit, like, rock bottom, and then I had to go into treatment. But it was I feel like once I actually explore, I like really, really try to resist exploring those dark places. I never in twenty twenty. At, twenty twenty was the first time he even, like, utter the word Jessica Depatie  00:25:00  Mm-mm Lorilee Binstock  00:24:59  sexual abuse. And I think for for me, as it pertain to mean because I was sexually abused by my father, which has its own you know, layers of Jessica Depatie  00:25:09  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:11  shit. You don't wanna go into. But it was... One time is able to go into it though. Once I was able to talk about it, the first time I actually talked about in a group of people they were like, they came to a couple of them came to me, and the really like that actually happened to me. I haven't talked about it. Even though they had been in this treatment center that I was in for probably a month longer than I was. When they were able to start talking about what happened to them, and then that was when, like, their healing process and their ability to move out of this treatment center. Started accelerating. So it was... It's it's I do believe that there is once we've gone to this place once we've achieved post growth, I guess, I feel like, yes. There there's there's a responsibility there. To tell your story But that's just me. Jessica Depatie  00:26:04  Thank you so much for sharing that. That is like, a really remarkable story of so of resilient, you know, and I'm so glad that you brought up hitting your rock bottom and that being the thing that that woke you up to the kind of work. You know, what's interesting about that is a lot of people are living in a like, a lot of people don't hit a kind of rock bottom that wakes them up. Lorilee Binstock  00:26:30  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:26:31  Which I think why a lot of people do like delegate, like, I just have this hovering dirt cloud of Lorilee Binstock  00:26:38  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:26:38  a shit. Getting mean like, this feeling of you know, unpleasant. That's just covering around. And so maybe can work, and it shows you Lorilee Binstock  00:26:46  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:26:47  all the things you've been tolerated. Right? Is show your you'll you can feel like your at rock bottom in a way that you've facilitated for yourself. And I think that that is one of the flaws in our in the way anxiety is and it built today is, like, there's so many ways to distract you from having a rock Lorilee Binstock  00:27:04  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:27:07  got a moment. So people that, like yourself, and a lot of people that I've talk to in the research of this project. They have really, like, intense traumatic experience that the rock bottoms that the hit are remarkable. Right? They can experience the post traumatic growth and also, then remarkable ways because they've seen a version of themselves. They've that is unbearable. Lorilee Binstock  00:27:30  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:27:33  Right? Now for your I don't know. I guess you're get average person. Still having traumatic experience but, you know, I can distract myself with Netflix or shopping or working out or all these things or dating apps or jumping from relationship to relationship. Lorilee Binstock  00:27:52  Right Jessica Depatie  00:27:51  So I never feel that rock bottom. You know, all this convenience that we have in our life. That is supposed to keep us quote happy, but just keep those more or less from experiencing that dark night of our soul, And that's not to see that we don't see hints of it. We don't see hints of you know, laying in Bed at night, mean, like, what is what is all of that? Got a change, but then, you know, maybe I'll literally listen into a podcast to go to sleep into having these thoughts. Lorilee Binstock  00:28:16  Right. Jessica Depatie  00:28:16  So, you know, the title, the documentary night of Our is called action more or less. To stop distracting yourself and to just contemplate what is hiding in your own underworld? So that you don't have to hit a rock bottom. Because, you know, we can keep them hovering and employment pleasant our whole lives and the rock bottom might be, and I hate to be the girl talk about it. But, you know, when we're older, hopefully, we get to that point living a long life. Being the deathbed bed and that being perhaps you rock about a moment of, like, Lorilee Binstock  00:28:52  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:28:50  I should've have... I should've have looked at all that. You know, I I I had all these relationships that were right there in front of my face, but I was not able to love enough because I wasn't able to, like, reclaim the person of myself that made me feel like me again maybe feel like me for the first time. Period. Lorilee Binstock  00:29:06  Yeah. Yeah. When I say Jessica Depatie  00:29:11  So... Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:29:13  go. Go ahead. Jessica Depatie  00:29:14  Just gonna conclude there that And, even when I say this, I get a little bit emotional because I really feel the impact of this work. Lies on our generation shoulders. Lorilee Binstock  00:29:28  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:29:28  You know, because we're coming to a present around like, the level of depression that the world, like on a global scale don't have the number, but it's like, Lorilee Binstock  00:29:42  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:29:41  a lot of people, you know, it's like, one in three people and we'll have some kind of diagnosing mental disorder that can be preventable by I think looking at some of the material that has created these coping mechanisms that have then become visual. I mean, we even look at hoard, there's something like eighteen million orders just in the at. I don't know if that number is true or not. But that's that is wondering specific. Like manifestation of a group of people that have perhaps unresolved trauma you know, that just the numbers are huge, and when we look at the ways that we are coping through consumer in them, it's destroying our planet and I don't know what the timeline is for that. But you know, what world are we leaving for our kids? So... Yeah. The this field like it feels like important work. Lorilee Binstock  00:30:35  If it is an important work, I absolutely agree. And, you know, going back to, you know, this idea of like, little key trauma. Right? I feel like people the majority of people who just kind of live in that Jessica Depatie  00:30:50  Oh, Lorilee Binstock  00:30:50  space of... I'm just dealing and dealing and dealing. I feel like they've dealt with little trauma and because they have dealt with big g trauma, they don't think that there's anything that they need to explore. And I think that that's also why we need to make people more aware that, like, little t trauma is trauma. And and not exploring it. Can be a problem. And, yeah... It's so easy to distract herself like you said with so much And, you know, for me, I I I just couldn't right? I had children that were triggering me. Never it was just like, oh my gosh. My daughter is reminding me of of these moments that I don't wanna relive and I need just need to go away. But Jessica Depatie  00:31:35  mhmm Lorilee Binstock  00:31:37  you know, what's nice about being able to have also know going back to what we were talking about exploring, you know, is it our responsibility to explore those dark places. I really feel it, like, if I didn't, I don't know what would be there for my daughter. Because my daughter, my son, I... I think my son benefited to the most the youngest, so he's see me... He's been with me more since my healing, my daughter has seen both sides of me and it's been really, you know, I can see how it's been difficult quote for her. Like, my son can Jessica Depatie  00:32:06  Mhmm Lorilee Binstock  00:32:10  is is I feel like ken easily, you know, take a breath, and my daughter is more like me. You know, prior to treatment when, you know, if my husband was to say, you can you take a breath? Can you breathe? I'd be like, yep. I don't want to. You know? So that... You know, because that's who I was. I was very much a I like, no. I nothing's gonna help. Leave me alone. And then, you know, coming out of treatment, it was like, this this is stuff that actually works when I was... When I was at my treatment center, they actually we they did bio and you can see, like, what breathing action we did when you actually took deep breaths and you saw, like, your you your energy. It was just... It was amazing. And it would... It made it more concrete for me to help my children Jessica Depatie  00:32:57  mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:32:59  be able to manage these stress by simply taking a breath or really talking about what happened. Jessica Depatie  00:33:08  Oh, Lorilee Binstock  00:33:08  In their day. And I think Yeah. It's just just exploring it that way and being okay with sharing, like, the bad stuff and being okay with it. Jessica Depatie  00:33:16  Oh, for sure, You know, like, having kids, I I don't have any kids myself, but talking to you one of the other experts in our film, Doctor Tru who's the resilience researcher. And he was talking about the the other things we often talk about Trauma think Lorilee Binstock  00:33:37  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:33:36  that are bad. Right? But they can also be things that are good but you're different on the other side of it. You know? Having kids is a really great example of that, having children can be dramatic. Like, just changing in her whole life, you know? Lorilee Binstock  00:33:50  Yes. Jessica Depatie  00:33:51  And things That didn't bother you before you know, are, like, all of a sudden important and require attention and things used enjoy, the whole snow globe of your brain gets chuck. Shaken up. Winning the lottery is another good example. A lot people win the lottery that's good. Lorilee Binstock  00:34:11  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:34:07  Can be also be out there's like a whole bunch of other things that pop up as a result of that. And to your point about, you know, your relationship with your daughter being a little bit different than your relationship to your son. Would I wanted to also add in there around this moral responsibility do the work? It is it also saying that it's not your responsibility or it's not a you should heal because it that that's where things get tricky. You know? Lorilee Binstock  00:34:37  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:34:37  Okay. To be somebody's bad day. Because this is... Like, we have to subscribe in some way to surrendering to the way life plays out like, things will make sense at some point. You know? The weird part of this complex fabric of the way the universe is tied together. So we can look at like, my mom, for example, she after starting this work, she was feeling like a lot of shame around her themselves. And by transferring her own unresolved trauma on me, you know, this sense of unacceptable and rejection. That I talk about often when I go podcast and on my own show, and she's like, god I if I just Lorilee Binstock  00:35:27  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:35:28  have worked on that earlier in my life because she's working on it now. You wouldn't have that You wouldn't have to go through any of this. I'm, like, public. Lorilee Binstock  00:35:34  Oh. Jessica Depatie  00:35:35  Yeah. I did I did suffer but I'm so grateful for the way that I dealt with that and the other the bit of agency that you did in still me that I can change because that's one of the big things around this kind of work. Sense of agency. You know, I did I wouldn't be doing this at all. I don't know where I'd be. What I'd be doing that I love what I do now. You know so we can look at our children, let's say, you know, for anybody listening that at has had a two phases life? You know, one child experienced a version that you were proud of Lorilee Binstock  00:36:05  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:36:08  you know? But that can turn into something remarkable that we have no idea. To the only thing I think... Well, I don't think this is from research post growth research. That has come out of the wave of Covid, considering the whole world went through a collective trauma in many different facets, whether that was extreme family deaths, of fear of government you know, control, like, any way, which way people are different on the other side of this. Right? It comes up with conversation often. Families are looking a lot different. The way people go out public can be different. A lot of friendships were dissolved for different, you know, value noncitizens that were conflicting that just weren't able to be resolved. So this new wave of research has shown that Okay. Is what set somebody up for post traumatic growth. You know, what can we help instill in our children? If they are going through it art are are going to go through it because we all kinda do Lorilee Binstock  00:37:04  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:37:07  There's no difference in extra version or introversion really the benefit of being more of an extrovert type is that like, the ability to share your story with other people and to bring in people into your own experience like you were talking about when you're in treatment, when you shared, it was really helpful. You're able to get feedback and you put in distance between your own inner world and, like, Lorilee Binstock  00:37:30  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:37:29  And you, you know, you put it out there, you you brought light to it. The benefit of being more introverted and you may have a more like, colorful inner world. To contemplate why things have happened. But there is a difference between open and a lack of open there, we were gonna to look at the big five scale. Openness this to new experiences. Is one of the markers of post growth in terms of personality. So that's where we can start talking about in intentionally working with our kids or working with ourselves. I'll talk ourselves first. Lorilee Binstock  00:38:06  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:38:09  One of the topics I we explore here is intentionally facilitated post growth. Which is a big concept to jump from Did you know you have trauma to You can intentionally facilitate your own. Right? Like, had a lot of ground to cover there. But the point is to build capacity So the more new experience that you put yourself in, the more you can subconsciously realize that I am capable and you collect more data around what you can get through. So I think that's why people like working out. In ways that are more intense like hit or traveling or meeting new people or doing psychedelics. Right? Like, the more experiences you can put yourself into, the more Lorilee Binstock  00:38:52  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:38:50  waiting you can expand your capacity to be in them. Showing worked with our kids, and we show them that you can be different. Hear some ways that you can be different, whether that's helping them go into sports, like, group sports is one kind of thing or if they're more of a solo person, like Martial Arts, but really helping them intentionally test some of those edges in micro. In a more micro capacity. Lorilee Binstock  00:39:13  Mhmm. Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:39:13  So that when you get the flood dose of adversity, is gonna happen at some point. It's like, oh, yeah. I've been... I've been training for this. And then okay. Lorilee Binstock  00:39:22  Right. Wow. Yes. And you know, it's it reminds me of a a really great quote from someone that I interviewed a while ago he was an Jessica Depatie  00:39:33  Oh Lorilee Binstock  00:39:33  shell former Nhl player, Dave Scattered. He after I think was a sith can ca heat. It was, like oh it was a near fatal concussion in humans, like, in his thirties getting dementia. And he told me because he said he's been his whole life just like this happy guy, like everything everything was kind of, you know, he's working hard doing, you know, achieving things. And then once you hit that, that that that can got that fit concussion and nearly died. You know, he and he was suffering and he realized, like, he said that god came to him when he was like, ready to just throw in the towel, and he was... He was ready to take in no life. Said you said he's like, he spoke to me, and he said that I I needed you to go through what you had Jessica Depatie  00:40:25  Oh, Lorilee Binstock  00:40:24  go through so you can help the people that you're going to help. Because he was saying that, you know, you know, there's a before that had happened, she'd be like, Oh, just suck it up. Just... You know, you broke your arm. You you know, you broke your whatever a teeth. You just, you know, just get up and let's do. Let's just do right. It's like, let's let's go. But he said that he had to go through the suffering to really understand what it was like, to be able to help other people because now he is a coach. He's he's a life coach. He's a for for for athletes to, you know, a and so he he had to understand. The only way he could understand other people suffering was going through the veterans himself because that he was just ready to give up and I just thought that was just an amazing way to look at it, like, right right now, like, I mean, I'm I don't know who I would be if all the things that happened to me, didn't happen. Like you were saying, Jessica Depatie  00:41:22  Mhmm mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:41:26  but but I'm happy where I am now. Jessica Depatie  00:41:27  You. Lorilee Binstock  00:41:29  And so I think that's that's that's that's the growth. That's the that's the growth there. Jessica Depatie  00:41:35  Yeah. I'm so glad he brought up. You know, a former athlete, like, that is that performer type you know, we we were glove was better and then first, first responders, Ashley also fall into that category entrepreneurs. People that have, like, grip Right? And they're used to. Lorilee Binstock  00:41:58  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:42:00  Practice and training to present something, whether that's to present themselves perfectly more or less in the arena of sport. Or on the battlefield or in business. And one of the interesting bits of research that we came across is that you can go from You don't have to be So talking to vitality right now, Lorilee Binstock  00:42:25  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:42:26  which is the ultimate, like, lack of agency getting to the point of, like, Lorilee Binstock  00:42:36  Right. Jessica Depatie  00:42:33  I can't change and this is it and then pulling the plug on your experience. So we wanted to study that to see what is the ultimate giving up moment. Right? When people are like, there is no growth left for me, The only way is this way. And there's bit of research that we found show that there... You can go from being perfectly quote, okay. To Suicide Value fairly quickly, when you have committed yourself to a lack of being able to change. And so I bring up performers because especially prevalent in that kind of archetype. Which I would consider myself to fall into as well. Which is like a bit of a failed hero story. You know, my whole life cultured nourished nurtured to perform him and to show up and all these things and at a point where, like, let say this gentleman, gets traumatic brain injury to the point where he is just, like, super different on the other side of that. The things that he valued above everything else likely was the the entertainment, the the joy that he brought through his his work. Right? And now that's gone, Who am I even? Lorilee Binstock  00:43:46  Mm-mm Jessica Depatie  00:43:48  And so a big part of the doing this work is acknowledging grade. You know, like, we go back to what is growth even, not being happy all the time. But it doesn't mean feeling joy and you're sorrow. Feeling the okay and being wherever you're at. So I can really relate to that story because I haven't experienced traumatic brain injury myself, but I was married to a Jeff Pop is also of the producer of this documentary he has traumatic brain injury. And when that started to flare up, it was unbearable to him. And to me, Lorilee Binstock  00:44:25  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:44:27  the emotional wave, the all the things that come with that. And because of the brain injury, it makes it a little bit tricky to work with. You know, the healing process on physiological like, in in terms of how your body heals, it it's kind different than a lot of the other psychological wounds that can happen. And so for him to acknowledge grace inhibit what he felt to be weak, not being able to show up. Not being able to be the husband that he wanted to be being ind incapacitated at moment. Not being able to reach out to people Lorilee Binstock  00:45:08  Mhmm Jessica Depatie  00:45:04  like, without that great, then he don't get me wrong. He had moment of, like, no grade. They just like this is horrible, and I don't know what to do with my myself anymore. But that with with what would be identified as the weakness for a performer is super super huge, and it takes time. And yeah, what is Grace even? Like, acknowledgement that that this is all part of it. Lorilee Binstock  00:45:31  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:45:31  Right. So below the the coming to Jesus moment, like, that's what those load can be. Lorilee Binstock  00:45:38  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:45:39  And it's hard when you're in those in your rock bottom, I don't know if there's a lot of work to be done there. Like, when you're really going through it and you're feeling everything, I think the strategy there is to breathe and write it out. Lorilee Binstock  00:45:53  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:45:53  But when you come back into a point of neutrality, that's where I think the work begins is it's in the contemplation of, like, what was that? Where did that come from? You know, now that of space instead of just going right back to twice me like, okay. Well I'm good again. You know, I'm just gonna ignore that that happened. Lorilee Binstock  00:46:08  Yeah. Jessica Depatie  00:46:09  That's where you put in the wraps. Lorilee Binstock  00:46:12  Right. I agree. I agree. It was... You know, when you're in it, there's really not much you can do. Jessica Depatie  00:46:16  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:46:19  You're just you're you're... You just... I feel like you can just go down. Right? Like, I felt like that I was just going down my rabbit hole when I hit the rock bottom and I was just like, there's nothing for me. Jessica Depatie  00:46:27  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:46:31  Luckily, I had my husband who was like, okay. You can do this. We're gonna do this. Jessica Depatie  00:46:31  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:46:35  We're gonna do this. But Yeah. It was... You know, I I I I do... And I know that this likely the purpose of your your documentary, but to let will know that, you know, post traumatic growth is achievable people, it's... You know, And and I feel like, I I can't stress that enough because I was there. I was there. I was there what I was just like, this is who I am. There's no there's no way out of Jessica Depatie  00:47:02  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:47:02  this. And I think that there's nothing more then I want to share then it is a possibility. There's it's there. Jessica Depatie  00:47:13  Exactly. That is so well said it is the possibility because one very easy route we could gone down with this that would made my a lot easier it may, like, here, the five steps the post traumatic gross, you know, like, Youtube can be healed, but it so not that. Like, this whole film is really one messenger prompt know, the answers that you get are only gonna come within yourself. So it's... It's presented in a very poetic way. And we're really, really careful to not say that it is Let gonna say that. Just to know that it is an option. To believe that it is an option. Is the biggest and leap of faith you can take. Lorilee Binstock  00:47:59  Yes. Jessica Depatie  00:48:01  There's no actual work that you have to do in terms of by the end of this film, I mean, Like, there's no actual, like, you have to go see a therapist. Do you have to do psychedelics? You have to have to have do in order to heal, what you have to do is just know that it's possible and to just open your mind to whatever comes in. So one of the major themes or I methodologies that we follow is young in psychology throughout that. And the way that that's presented is a very gentle, like, awareness in an opening process. Everybody's experience different. Everybody's mode of healing will be different. That's why we're a solution agnostic kind of organization because going into treatment center it may be perfect for you. To give the guitar, maybe all that you need. You know, learning how to cook maybe everything. So to pinpoint exactly what needs to happen, what do I do now? Is not our responsibility to tell you what to do because that would just be Lorilee Binstock  00:49:06  Mm-mm Jessica Depatie  00:49:03  impossible and, like, irresponsible on our end. Right? Behold I don't wanna be the person that's like, well, just do what I did. If and it'll work for you at might. But This is where we pass agency to the viewer, like, your own intuition will let you know, follow the clues in your life. Lorilee Binstock  00:49:21  Mhmm Jessica Depatie  00:49:24  And here are through of the mythology that shows you that post growth is throughout of human history. Here the bio reasons why grows after trauma is actually probable not just possible. And here's all the proof around why this is actually a thing and not just some random phenomenon that happens to people that like, are lucky enough two you know, catch the post matter growth bug. So. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:49:49  Wow, Amazing. I mean, I can talk to you all day. I really could. Jessica Depatie  00:49:51  I know. That'd be great. Twenty four hour podcast. Lorilee Binstock  00:49:56  I know. Right. But we do have to wrap it up. But I do want to ask if you have anything that you would like to add Jessica Depatie  00:50:05  Well, I think I got through all the the juicy bit of the documentary, but we are running a kickstarter right now until the end of June, a little bit in the July, we're using fun to help us finish the film. So right now, if you donate eat fifteen bucks to the kick started. You can watch a short version of the film, which is thirty minutes, and it's very good. Have same else. Lorilee Binstock  00:50:26  I I love the trailers. The trailer was amazing. I I I was like, I need more. So, yes, Jessica Depatie  00:50:31  Thank you. We'll, also I you the link. Else send need a link to watch it. For anybody listening, yeah, the donation goes towards helping us finish it. And we just actually partnered with this fantastic director out of Hollywood. That is going to be editing our full film and just make it primed for for math media you know, like, that was one thing that in doing this process, we realized we have some limitations around what? In Netflix. Lorilee Binstock  00:50:56  Mhmm. Jessica Depatie  00:50:57  You know? And and what is too complicated? So we... Like I love this so much. I'm gonna set you up with the connections as distributors and all the things that you guys don't have right now, and I wanna edit it so the people really... So really not people locked up. So that wasn't in huge huge miracle for us. And, yeah. Any fun that are donated, go towards helping fish edit. But Also, it goes towards helping us create an past campaigns to the ones the film is finished, we can take to correctional facilities and addiction centers and to Lorilee Binstock  00:51:34  Amazing. Jessica Depatie  00:51:34  like colleges and, yeah. To help for the word of post growth rays wear in it. Around of possibility for people that either need it the most or to make the most impact. And usually, those are the same people Lorilee Binstock  00:51:46  That's incredible. I really. I love that. I love going. The this idea of going to those places and and having them be able to for this idea of post growth. So incredible. And, you know, there's a scrolling fortune cookie right there on your screen. And I will also have in the show notes that you can go to that kickstarter right there. So Jessica Depatie  00:52:11  Beautiful. Thank you so much for having Me on, this have been really fun. Lorilee Binstock  00:52:12  Thanks. Jessica Depatie  00:52:15  Love that you on my show too. One of these days. Let's up that up. Lorilee Binstock  00:52:17  Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Jessica I really appreciated. That was Jessica good to pat shadow work educator host of the shadow work library podcast and the executive producer. Of the documentary dark night of our soul for more information on Jessica, click on that scrolling fortune cookie right there on your screen. You... It'll will also be in the show notes anywhere you get your podcast. Also, June issue of authentic insider is out check out out to insider at trauma thrive dot com that trauma survivor dot com. We will be back next week and with episode one hundred, You can join me live when I speak with Erin Johnson about mental health and marginalized communities. Next week it's gonna be on a different day. Same time though, it's gonna be on Tuesday, June thirteenth. Please join me. You've been listening to A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast. I'm Lorilee Binstock. Thanks again for being a part of the conversation. Take care.

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, May 24th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Today’s guest is Reverend Kenneth Nixon Jr., Author of the book Born Into Crisis: A Memoir. For more information about Rev. Kenneth Nixon Jr.'s work, visit Author Rev. Kenneth Nixon. Lorilee Binstock  00:03:22  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside Chat, where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I'm Lorilee Binstock, your host. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest questions by requesting to hop on stage or sending a message in the chat box. I will try to get you, but I do ask that everyone be respectful. Our guest today is reverend, Kenneth,Nixon junior. He is the author of Born into Crisis, a memoir about his experience growing up with a mentally ill mother. Kenneth, thank you so much for joining me today. Kenneth Nixon  00:04:27  Thank you for having me. How are you doing today? Lorilee Binstock  00:04:30  I'm doing great. Thank you. How about yourself? Kenneth Nixon  00:04:33  Pretty good. Pretty good. You know, you you challenged me because I don't have an Apple device, so I had to go out and buy one for the first time. Lorilee Binstock  00:04:41  Stop. Did you really oh my goodness. What do you think of it? Kenneth Nixon  00:04:44  Yes. I have a lot of learning to do. Lorilee Binstock  00:04:51  Oh my goodness. Well, I'm so grateful for you. I mean, maybe you could return I don't know if if you're like, oh, this is you know, you get so used to one thing after a while, but I do appreciate your your willingness to come on the show because you have a lot to say, and I wanna hear all about it. Your book brought into crisis, wow. Incredibly. So I I want you to be able to, you know, for our guests who haven't read the book, can you talk a little bit about your childhood? Kenneth Nixon  00:05:26  Yes. So my childhood, if we start right at the title of the book, right, born into crisis, It when I was born, my mother who suffered from severe mental illness, all of her her life, I was literally born into crisis from the standpoint. She was in the middle of Psychosis at the moment of my birth, in which while I was lying on the floor, I was suffering from withdrawals from a medication called thorazine, which is anti psychotic medication that she used to treat those who then suffer from paranoid schizophrenia or other manic depressive disorders. The stuff of that nature. And it was only by grace that my father who was getting off of work, out there in time to get me in the hospital. So I quite literally was born into crisis. But that is the beginning stage of a life and a childhood in which I had to deal with trauma, PTSD, anxiety, and various things of growing up with a mother with severe mental illness. Lorilee Binstock  00:06:44  You know, that's really tough. You know, you you talk about, you know, postpartum psychosis. I mean, I I it sounds like she she's dealt with these issues. But, you know, after, you know, childbirth, post farm psychosis is very real. And and it's it's so such a you know, it's such an issue that people are like, yeah. It doesn't really affect that many people. It affects enough people. I feel like for for someone to raise awareness about it. You know? It's it it is very much a problem. You hear all these stories about these mothers. Kenneth Nixon  00:07:02  Yes. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:15  Who murdered their children or who've attempted to murder their children. Kenneth Nixon  00:07:17  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:19  And, you know, this is this is a problem. Right? So I'm curious for you, you know, for someone who's dealt with so much trauma, especially at an early age, how were you able to get out of that? How are you able to break these generational cycles of of trauma? Kenneth Nixon  00:07:42  Yeah. So what I wanna do first, you hit a good point that I wanted to emphasize about not only prenatal care, but postnatal care. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:55  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:07:55  My mother because I have older siblings, she suffered a severe bout of postpartum depression with my oldest brother, Kevin, in the seventies. And that was not she did not have effective prenatal care and postnatal care, and that can lead to devastating consequences as well in terms of impacts to mental health if there's not effective care for from others, both pre and post. And particularly in the sixties and seventies, it it was really lacking for women of color. It's improved, but there's still gaps in it. But prenatal and postnatal care is critical too for for mothers to have, but breaking generational cycles. I think it's it's always a work in progress. For me, it began with this deep sense of curiosity as I was growing up to try to understand how my life could turn out in such a way. Right? Is those stages of emotions that you go through from anger to to grief, to resentment, to bitterness, to sadness, and really understanding not only the systems and the environment that that I grew up in, but understanding what was within my control to begin to shift the paradigm, not only in my life, but to also make sure that I don't carry some of those things into my household as I'm raising my children. And I took that personally because I had a a deep sense that I wanted to do things differently from my children so they can have a healthier path to to life than I did. Lorilee Binstock  00:09:57  Yes. At you know, for me, you know, I'm a childhood sexual abuse survivor. You know, I realized my my father was also sexually abused as a child. I didn't know that until I was much older. For me, it was really hard. Even though I it's like, I knew You know, I they also had very erratic behaviors, very just very difficult to be around. And, you know, the yay, yelling, a lot of just erratic behavior behaviors. And, you know, even though I'm like, I don't wanna be I don't wanna be anything like my parents. You know, there are times where I'd get overwhelmed, and I'd get you know, there's just moments with my kids that I was just yelling. And this was before I I got went to residential treatment. I and I was very fortunate that I was able to do that. But before that, you know, I didn't realize. Like, I'm like, oh my god. My children are just behaving this way because And it it it took a long time for me to say, oh my goodness. I'm I'm behaving the way my parents were behaving. And now my children are going to pick up on this. What was it for you where you were like, things need to change, or was this before children? And did you have a support system? Because I feel like that's extremely important too. Kenneth Nixon  00:11:21  Mhmm. So I I would say it's some of both. In terms of a support system, I I would say I didn't have a big, strong support system. But what I did have was my my grandmother, She passed away in two thousand and six, and my father But central to for me was my faith. Lorilee Binstock  00:11:50  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:11:52  And I'm only speaking for myself, but it was one of those things that I can fully lean on and trust to help me not only center myself, find the sense of peace, but it was something that was dependable and that was consistent in my life. That allow me to have a sense of fulfillment. But as I got older and, particularly, into adulthood, I began focusing on how do I help others not deal with the same situations that I was doing, but also how do I do the things in terms of self care therapy? That I don't carry some of my traumas or inherited traumas into a household where I'm raising my sons. And I will give a good example in terms of that. Like, I grew up where family wasn't very loving. There were there weren't those affirmations of of I love you. I don't even think I remember my father ever saying that or people around me there. There weren't hugs or being tucked in at night, and Lorilee Binstock  00:13:14  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:13:19  things of of that nature that seem normal to me, but they weren't they're aren't normal because humans thrive off of connection and being connected with one another. And it's really focusing on the small things to make sure Lorilee Binstock  00:13:34  Right. Kenneth Nixon  00:13:36  that my children understand that they are loved, that I I tell them that they had loved them, that I talked them in at night, that I hugged them, that they actually see me crying. And one of the the things that I wanted my sons to understand is that it's okay for boys who will eventually become men to cry. Because crying is one of the ways in which your body releases anxiety. It releases stress or releases Lorilee Binstock  00:14:01  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:14:03  some of the things that if you bottle up, it can turn into physical health challenges. So I wanted to create an environment in which I was acting out on my self interest of creating a more fair and equitable society, particularly around mental health. But I was also living that out in a way. I was raising my children so they can grow up in a healthy environment as much as possible. I still have things that I I have to work on because it's a continuous work. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:34  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:14:35  But as much as possible, I'm very conscious of it. And I try to create an environment that is a hundred and eighty degrees different than the one I grew up in. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:45  Yeah. I feel like awareness is everything. When you're conscious about your behaviors. It's it's so much easier to make changes versus me before before I actually was aware of my who what I was doing. I was just going along thinking why everyone's doing something wrong. Kenneth Nixon  00:15:07  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:15:07  And that was really hard. That was really hard to to really fully be aware of my act my behaviors and how it affected other people. And actually be present in a in the moment versus, you know, for the longest time, probably for twenty years, thirty years, I was disassociating. Kenneth Nixon  00:15:27  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:15:28  And so that was that was challenging. You know, I wanna talk about discrimination of mental illness. Kenneth Nixon  00:15:37  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:15:39  And it's really interesting. I feel like this has been a whole thing for the month of May, you know, we're right into in mental health awareness month. And just a few weeks ago, I actually someone contributed to my magazine. She was not, I guess, when I promoted her piece, I had a lot of people reaching out saying, oh, this person's a liar. She's you know, she she did have a warrant out for her arrest. And they did say, like, oh, she's she's a she's a compulsive liar. You can't have her on your show. You know, I can't believe you let her contribute to this magazine. She's a fraud. I don't believe she even experienced trauma. And my my reaction to that was all of this kind of proved she's experienced some sort of trauma, whether it's a trauma that she says she's experienced. She still experienced trauma, and I feel like I I I want you to kind of go into discrimination of mental illness. And and in that. Kenneth Nixon  00:16:40  Yeah. Yeah. In in my book, I I dedicate a chapter kind of to the the point you're getting at right now. And I would count this under a form of cognitive bias where individuals or or or groups of folks kind of project their own sense of right and wrong in their own feelings and their own perceptions on whether or not someone experienced something or not in into what degree. And it requires people to understand that someone's truth is someone's truth. And it may manifest or look differently Lorilee Binstock  00:17:20  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:17:23  than what you may want it to look like or what society says is normal. But if we start at the basis of letting everyone share their story, and how they feel and how they perceive that they receive trauma and go at it from the side of love and deference, I think we will get to a place where we begin to allow people to share the same space now. We do have to be grounded in a sense of of facts and truth But the way trauma works is people have to be comfortable in the space to be able to share their truth in a way that feels real and natural to them. And sometimes people may not feel comfortable sharing their full truth in a way that we may all like because they feel they're gonna be attacked or they're going to be put in a position where they are overexposed and don't wanna be in a position where they're too vulnerable. So I would encourage people to really look at their own form of bias on their worldview, on how they grew up in how they see things and understand every individual has their own set of experiences. Have their own set of understandings, and have their own set of feelings. And even if that individual is saying something that you don't necessarily agree with or that you feel is fully forthright, it is okay to let that individual just speak. You don't have to always point out the flaws of someone else. Sometimes just let them speak and move on. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:23  Yeah. That's you know, that's easier said than done. Right? I I I agree with you. Right? I'm you know, I've gotten to this point in my healing where Kenneth Nixon  00:19:27  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:32  I don't need to you know, provide input on how someone else should live or how they're living or, you know, how their trauma has affected them and how they should behave. But it is I feel like when I was reading the comments, and and it was on it was think it was on my pay Facebook page, and people were just saying all of these different things about this person. And I guess, you know, from from their perspective, I see, okay. There probably there's probably fear there that they could be, Kenneth Nixon  00:20:03  Mhmm. Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:04  you know, scammed by this person. And I think, you know, and, you know, I wanted to give them some compassion as well, but it's it's it's so hard for people to Kenneth Nixon  00:20:15  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:16  to really separate themselves from, you know because there's a good chance that, you know, family members or people that were surrounding them felt like they need to Kenneth Nixon  00:20:20  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:28  put their you know, have their input, and then that's kind of how we do things. Right? Kenneth Nixon  00:20:34  Yeah. And it also could be coming from a place of feeling that they have to protect their own mental health or the health of others who may Lorilee Binstock  00:20:41  Exactly. Yeah. Kenneth Nixon  00:20:45  may come to listen to the content. So it could be a protection mechanism. I I would say one of the the anecdotes that we need to utilize more often is connecting with one another in person. I know technology is that's done wonderful things for society Lorilee Binstock  00:21:04  Yeah. Kenneth Nixon  00:21:07  and globally. But it's also disconnected us in a way that we don't have enough real conversations with real people in person and connect in a way that allows us to feel and be surrounded by the spirit of people. So I think more that needs to happen, but I I truly, truly understand the sense of wanting to protect ones own space, and that could have been something that was being communicated Lorilee Binstock  00:21:37  Yeah. Kenneth Nixon  00:21:40  through Facebook. Lorilee Binstock  00:21:43  You wrote born into crisis, and I wanna know what was your intention? What did you hope to come out of this book. Kenneth Nixon  00:21:55  Mhmm. So my hope was to reach at least one individual. I I wrote it with it impacting one person. If one person could read it and find their halved to self discovery, to healing, to getting a sense of agency and empowerment to act on their self interest, and I would consider it successful. So the way I wrote it was one to try to have people feel that they're having a conversation with me, so I've broken into two parts. One is my personal story. The second part is the call to action. And I wanted to be able to allow people some insight into my personal story, but I also wanted to give people the tools, the walkways on what they could potentially do to take those concrete steps to affect not only changing their local community in their homes as individuals, but as society as a whole around this critical issue of mental health. Lorilee Binstock  00:23:11  Yes. Our our mental health our our health system in America is is You know, I have I I I have words. But, especially, when it when it when it comes to mental health, Kenneth Nixon  00:23:21  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:23:25  it's it's almost non existent, it feels like. You know, people to get the right care for for a a therapist, especially trauma therapist, I feel like everything's now out of out of pocket. Insurance isn't covering a lot of it. What would you what do you think we needs to be done to really revolutionize our our mental health system health care system because I feel like it is a very daunting task, and a lot of people don't wanna touch it. Kenneth Nixon  00:23:50  Mhmm. Yes. So the mental first of all, mental health for those who are listening. Mental health is health. One of the first things we have to do is decriminalize mental health. And what do I mean by that is we have to put in place the community based system that was always supposed to go in place when we did a mask the institutionalization push back in the sixty seventies and eighties where these massive mental health institutions were shuttered in its place supposed to be this community based system that will holistically treat individuals and get them on a path to healing and sustainability while they stayed in their communities, well, that system never got put in place. In in that gap, you ended up with a system in which individuals who are dealing with mental health, whether it's anxiety or it's a severe mental illness, They end up in one of two places, either in the local emergency room, which ERs are intended for physical emergencies, not mental health emergencies, and they end up in e r's not getting immediate treatment or they end up in local jails. And the fact is is that the largest mental health treatment facilities in this country today still on local jails. Think about that for a second. The largest mental health treatment facility in the United States right now are local jails. We need to shift that dynamic to a more humane form of treatment that keeps people in their community that does not criminalize mental illness, but gives people their best shot at having happy thriving lives. Lorilee Binstock  00:26:01  So would that be all community organizations that what what would we be able to put in place? What is Kenneth Nixon  00:26:10  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:26:11  what would Kenneth Nixon  00:26:11  So some of the work that I am going through the organization. I'm affiliated with Voice, which stands for Virginians, organized for interfaith community engagement. There's a three pronged stool to this process. Some place to call some place to go, and the the treatment and the services that wrap around the individual that is getting treatment. So one of the key pieces that was put in place that needs to be put in place nationally. And is the advent of the nine eight eight hotline number? Which allows individuals who or their loved ones who are about to go into a mental health episode or in the middle of it. To have an alternative to nine eleven, to call nine eight eight and be connected to someone that they can talk to that can help determine on what level of illness that they own and what type of treatment do they need, whether it's just to speak with someone or that they actually need to speak to a clinical professional. So that's that's the first piece. Really, implementing and socializing of the nine eight eight hotline number for individuals to utilize. The second piece is the infrastructure. So in Virginia, we're working really hard, and we've had some successes in getting funding to build out what are called crisis receiving centers. These are brick and mortar facilities that have two components. One is a a a twenty three hour piece where individuals in the community Law enforcement can do drop offs instead of taking people to local jails. People can just walk in where someone is experiencing anxiety or they they feel that they need to talk to someone, and they can walk right off the street in Speak get immediate treatment and speak with a professional, and they may need two hours. They may need four. But they may need up to twenty three hours. The whole goal is to make mental health services as accessible as possible. The second component to that crisis receiving center is called a short stay, a crisis stabilization unit. This is for individuals, whether they come through drop off from law enforcement or family member or they walk in themselves if it's determined that they need more in intensive in patient treatment for a short stay. There's another component for a three to five day short stay for that individual to get intensive inpatient treatment. But when they depart, they don't just depart. Without any tools or any resources they depart with wraparound services that allows them to access continuous ongoing care and treatment. So in Virginia, we have a victory in which on Prince William County in Virginia, which is in Northern Virginia, has done the groundbreaking and should have a full crisis receiving center online by spring of next year. I know in Loudoun County where That's also in Northern Virginia where they've their local government has approved the funding to build their own full crisis receiving center. And in Fairfax County, the most populous jurisdiction in Virginia, They're going to be putting up funding to finish out a full crisis receiving center as well. So one of the things we need to do is to make sure that not only are we breaking down the stigma, but we're coming together to create what I call co collective power to compel our local governments to begin building out that community based mental health system that was promised to us over forty years ago. Lorilee Binstock  00:30:27  Well, this is amazing. This is in Virginia. What about countrywide? Is this is do they do each individual state? Does does do they have Kenneth Nixon  00:30:33  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:30:38  similar goals to create this type of space. Kenneth Nixon  00:30:42  Yeah. So I can speak so the model that Virginia's following is based off of the federal government's guidelines in under the guise of a a crisis now model, which was pioneered in Arizona. Which we're trying to build our system based off of that crisis now model. So there are pockets in the country in Arizona. I know there is a facility in San Antonio, Texas. There's also a facility in Ohio, and there's a good robust program in Florida, I believe. So there are pockets where this is taking hold and taking shape in the country, but it is not uniform throughout the country. And if we're going to get at true systematic transformation, we have to make a commitment at the state level and the local level across the country to really commit to destigmatizing and decriminalizing mental health, and that is making a commitment to the crisis now model of care. Which will help us build out nationwide a community based system of treatment. So we get people to treatment and not incarceration. So to answer your question, and it is in other pockets of the country, but there is no uniformity across the country to implement this model. Lorilee Binstock  00:32:13  Got it. Do you believe that law enforcement is equipped to handle people who are dealing with mental health crisis. Kenneth Nixon  00:32:24  Yes. And no. I say yes from the standpoint if if law enforcement agencies, and I know in Virginia, a lot of our law enforcement agents who send a lot of their police officers through crisis intervention training, CIT. And there's different levels of CIT training from the introductory level all the way up to more advanced methods to equip law enforcement to be able to identify when they're dealing with the individual who's in a mental or in the middle of a mental health crisis. But writ large, law enforcement is not equipped to deal with those who are in the middle of the mental health crisis, and it can lead to often tragic outcomes when you're putting law enforcement in a position where they have to make snap decisions. Lorilee Binstock  00:33:28  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:33:29  And I can tell you each law enforcement officer or agency that I've encountered in Virginia will will be the first to stand up and say they are four. Putting these prices receiving centers in place because they do not want to be involved in these type situations. They understand completely that people who are in a mental health crisis need to see mental health professionals. So And and quite frankly, you're talking about law enforcement officers who have who are veterans, who have been in wars who have their own traumas, and we're oftentimes Lorilee Binstock  00:34:09  Mhmm. Kenneth Nixon  00:34:11  singing veterans sometimes into situations where we can potentially trigger their mental health. So it's incumbent upon us to work with law enforcement as well as like we are going in Virginia to put in place a system that alleviates this unfunded mandate on law enforcement. Lorilee Binstock  00:34:33  Well, I I'm thank you so much for all of the information that you've provided in everything that you're doing. You've taken your story. And found purpose and really are pushing for action and advocacy and and and health care and focused on mental health, and it's so admirable. And I thank you so much for all that you do. Is there anything that you would like to add? Kenneth Nixon  00:35:04  Well, I would like to leave your audience and everyone with is that none of us controls how we came into this world of the beginning. But we do have a saying the conclusion. And whatever way feels comfortable for you, whatever way that you feel led or inspired, if we're going to get at truly shifting the paradigm on mental health. It requires all of us, not just those who are directly impacted but those who have loved ones who are impacted, those who know of someone who are impacted. We are in mental health awareness month. But when mental health awareness not ends at the beginning of June, those same challenges are still there. Those causes are still there. The people that need our support and our encouragement and our effort to get them on a path of humane treatment is gonna still be there. And however you feel red, whether it's researching, whether it is direct action to to get the funding or holding seminars to break down stigma. We all owe it to future generations to do something about it now. Lorilee Binstock  00:36:31  Thank you very well, said. I appreciate you again for coming on. And and sharing your story and your input and and to the crisis that we are all living in right now. So thank you so much. Kenneth Nixon  00:36:45  And thank you again, and I appreciate the work and the advocacy that you're you're doing, and and I also appreciate the personality that you put into it that I've I've looked at your social media some as preparing for this, and it that by itself can be an encouraging method to help someone find their way to not only dealing with their own personal challenges, but having a sense, hey. I can have a voice too in a way that's comfortable to me. So thank you for your work as well. Lorilee Binstock  00:37:24  Thank you. That That means a lot. That means a lot. You know, I wanna do what I can, you know, find my purpose. Right? Well, thank you again. Kenneth Nixon  00:37:34  Question. Lorilee Binstock  00:37:36  That was Reverend Kenneth Nixon, Jr. Author of the memoir, born into crisis. For more information on Kenneth and his book, Click on that scrolling fortune cookie right there on your screen. Also, May's issue of authentic insider is out Kenneth so graciously contributed to May's issue. Check out authentic insider at trauma survivor thriver dot com. That's trauma survivor thriver dot com if you haven't already, please subscribe to my email list to get authentic insider magazine in your inbox monthly. We are taking a break next week, but we will be back in June for our last two episodes of season four. That'll be my hundredth episode. So I hope you join us. Join me live when I speak with Jessica Lee DePatie, filmmaker of the documentary Dark Knight of our Soul, about post traumatic growth. You've been listening to A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast on Fireside. I'm Lorilee Binstock. Again, thank you for being a part of the conversation. Take care.

This is a LIVE replay (edits made due to technical difficulties) of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, May 10th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Today’s guest is Reverend Rex ShadesEagle, Author of the book Know LOVE: A Memoir. Click here for more information on Rex’s Ride4Life and his book, Know LOVE.

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, May 3rd, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Lorilee Binstock  00:00:18  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is A Trauma Survivor Thrivers Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside Chat where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I am your host, Lorilee Binstock. Everyone has an opportunity to hop on stage. And, actually, I'm hoping people like to would like to hop on stage and and ask any questions or just chat with me today, but I do ask that everybody be respectful. I am your host, Lorilee Binstock. So please, some you know, I would love for people to share in this conversation. I know while this is an interview format show, I did have a guest. However, I did receive a lot of backlash. From so many people about this I will not name this guest, but I did confirm that she was dealing with some legal issues for alleged fraud and scamming people out of a lot of money. But with that, and trying to respond to everyone who commented on my Facebook page, I felt there really needed to be a conversation around mental health and the realization that you know, hurt people hurt people. And I know I also received backlash. Like, why are you canceling this person? And and I'll get to all of that. But I do ask that, you know, people join me. It looks like I actually have hold on. Let me see if I can get Kelly up on the stage. In it to invite them to speak. Cali is actually my I don't know if you know how to get on stage, but I think there's a button or something that can actually allow you to come on stage. No. I think I have you on stage. Cali, do I have you? So if if Cali is able to speak, she is actually my creative director for the magazine for so for anybody who checks out Authentic Insider Magazine and who's commented how beautiful how beautifully curated the pages are. It's actually all Kelly Benstock. I really, really everything is is really from the contributors, all the beautiful words and pages, the contributors and Kelly. So I do wanna say that. Kelly is done a lot to really beautify the magazine and and make it look legit. So So, Kelly, thank you for that. Can I get you on? Oh, I see that you should you be hearing something? Am I muted? That's my next question. It should be. Let me double check. So I do wanna talk about mental health because, like I said, I've had a lot of people come on and comment about why this person should not come. And I was actually thinking, okay. I'm gonna actually invite this person to come on the show and have her you know, and in question her a little bit about this, not not to be mean, but this is what I've been hearing. What will can you you wanna explain yourself or you want to share your story, your side of the story. The thing is she is I I there was an warrant out for her arrest last Tuesday. So I don't think she could have joined anyways, but I've decided that there were so many people who were really upset about having this guest on I felt that it just didn't fit the show. Right? This the show was called a trauma survivor, Thrivers Podcast. And So most of my guests are people who are trauma survivors who are thriving. And who are inspiring. And it just seemed like there was just a lot of animosity, a lot of anger that was surrounding this guest. And and so I just didn't feel like having this person on would be helpful, but it did make me think, okay. We need to talk about mental health. And there were a lot of people who were commenting that they felt this person was such a compulsive liar that they didn't believe that their trauma even existed. While I'm I'm not I'm not the person to make that decision, or to judge that, there is a I I truly believe she's experienced some sort of trauma. Whether it's a trauma that she says she experience. I'm I'm not sure. I can't that's not my I'm not in that position to make that call. I don't know her personally. But I feel that it's this this idea. Her people, her people, people who've been traumatized, oftentimes traumatize other people. That's why there's a generational trauma. You know, my parents who you know, I was traumatized by my parents. I'm in childhood sexual abuse survivor. You know, my my father sexually abused me as a child, my mother. Well, she's wonderful, and we have a good relationship now. You know, she she even admitted. I think I she told me when I was in college, I think I dealt with postpartum depression. And, you know, back then, nobody really knew much about if any anything about postpartum depression. And so I forgave her that for that. I think she kind of there was this realization our our relationship changed from there. But she still treated me pretty badly growing up. I felt neglected by her. And like I said, while that's not the case now, I did feel neglected by her for the longest time. And that has that caused me some issues. And and there was a point probably when I was in middle school, I didn't know I was dealing with trauma, but I realized that I I I needed a community. I needed friends, and I didn't really have friends. I was often isolated as a child. But when I got into middle school, I knew that I wanted friends. And I felt like the only people who were kind of talking to me were the popular the popular girls And I really, really enjoyed, like, being around them, but they were kind of mean. They were mean to other people, and I felt to be accepted within this group of people, I also needed to be mean or I needed to be like them. And I was I I I'm so ashamed to say. I was a little bit of a bully. Once I got into high school, I was bullied. Then I'm like, oh, it flipped the script. I'm this is this is happening to me, and this is this is pretty terrible. So now I know what it feels like. Right? You just I had things changed for me at that point. However, I was still healing from my trauma. Actually, I wasn't healing it off. High school, I wasn't healing from my trauma. I didn't even know I had trauma. I do wanna check-in. Do I have Kelly? Kelly, are you there? Are you available to chat? I don't know. I'm still, like I feel like there were some new features added on with Fireside. And I'm hoping people can actually hear me right now. Can people hear me? I might be muted, actually. No. I'm not. Well, you know, if we can get Kelly on oh, I see speaker request. Accept request. Kelly, can you hear me?   Cali Binstock  00:08:36  Yes.   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:37  Oh my goodness.   Cali Binstock  00:08:38  Wait.   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:39  K. K. I can hear you.   Cali Binstock  00:08:39  You can hear me. Wow. Okay. Great.   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:42  Yes. So, yes, this is this is Kelly. She like I said earlier, she is the creative director for Authentic Insider Magazine. Reason why the pages are so beautifully curated.   Cali Binstock  00:08:49  Hi.   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:55  That and, again, the create contributors   Cali Binstock  00:08:58  Hello?   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:58  are the ones who really bring the magazine to life. So, Kelly, you know, we've talked about this, and so I'm talking about mental health, and I'm talking about bullying. And I talked about how I was   Cali Binstock  00:09:05  Hi.   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:13  embarrassed to say I was a bully when I was in middle school.   Cali Binstock  00:09:16  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:18  Yada yada yada. I got into high school. I was bullied, and then and then I realized, like, oh, okay. This is this is this this is what it feels like, and it feels pretty terrible. But I was a bully because I I I struggled. I I there's something that I needed.   Cali Binstock  00:09:30  No.   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:35  And it was I needed   Cali Binstock  00:09:35  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:37  people to like me because nobody really liked me at home.   Cali Binstock  00:09:42  Look at that.   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:43  And, you know, the people who actually showed me some attention were, you know, these these girls who were kinda bullies. I did have a couple friends that were like, my good friends, and they're still my good friends today. But, you know, we they were kind of pulled into all of it as well. And I I have to say, they're good people. They're good people now. I don't know about the other girls.   Cali Binstock  00:10:03  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:09  Then I'm sure they're great people. But I I just wanna say it's her say it again. Her people, her people,   Cali Binstock  00:10:17  Definitely.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:17  and And it's really hard. If you like to understand that, especially if you've experienced trauma, unless you're unless you're on your, like, far into your healing.   Cali Binstock  00:10:25  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:29  And, you know, I feel like being curious about certain situations when someone's being mean, it's never it's it's almost never about   Cali Binstock  00:10:37  Yes.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:41  it's it's about the person who is being mean. It's not like   Cali Binstock  00:10:43  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:44  right?   Cali Binstock  00:10:45  That reminds me of Oprah's I don't think it's that new anymore, but it's like and I heard her talking about it on a podcast. It was like, not what's wrong with you. The question should be, what happens to you?   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:00  Yes. Exactly.   Cali Binstock  00:11:03  You know, and just having that awareness that people are acting from maybe trauma and insecurity and not as much out to get you because nobody cares that much about, you know, you not in not in a bad way, but, like,   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:21  Right.   Cali Binstock  00:11:23  People are so self centric that it's usually their own issues. That they have to deal with. You know?   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:30  I agree. And they're only outlet. Maybe you. Maybe they're so comfortable with you that you are the only outlet.   Cali Binstock  00:11:32  But yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:39  Ask my husband. I mean, it's   Cali Binstock  00:11:42  I know when you're really comfy with someone you can be. Alamine.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:48  yes.   Cali Binstock  00:11:48  Yeah. I'm guilty of it too, for sure.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:49  Yes. Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, I I talked to Jared about I mean, my husband's Jared. But I talked to my daughter about bullying because she there are times where she's felt bullied. And because she's felt bullied, you know, she comes to me. She's like this person said this, and I'm like, oh my goodness. Well, you know, there's probably something going on with them, and it's not about you. I think that was   Cali Binstock  00:12:05  Mhmm. Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:14  that was really important. To   Cali Binstock  00:12:17  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:17  my daughter, Olivia, because I feel like you can it's easy to take things personally.   Cali Binstock  00:12:24  Oh, yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:24  You know, even when my husband gets mad at me, when Jared, my husband gets mad at me, I can I can take it personally or he's being distant? I take it personally. Oh, you don't you don't love me anymore. You know, this is this is my thing. Right? But the truth is there's just something going on internally with him. Maybe it's work. Maybe it's something else. And I think it's, like you said, what Oser said,   Cali Binstock  00:12:33  Yeah. Yeah. Yes.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:47  what happened? What did what happened to you?   Cali Binstock  00:12:50  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:50  Why are you behaving this way? And I feel like for this person who is not on my show right now,   Cali Binstock  00:12:58  You're right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:59  it was I I think we should stop with the and I and with the I don't believe in her trauma because she is such a liar. I think she has experienced some sort of trauma, big tea, trauma, little tea, trauma that made her feel that she needed to scam people out of money. And, you know, in my neighborhood. I live in Washington, DC, and there are a lot of car jackings, car thefts,   Cali Binstock  00:13:31  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:32  but it's something that was really interesting that happened. This little while ago, but we have a listserv   Cali Binstock  00:13:37  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:38  for moms on the hill, and a woman was saying that her car got broken into. But she didn't say, you know, didn't didn't anyone have any cameras on this in this area. She specifically   Cali Binstock  00:13:50  Oh,   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:51  asked, George said, They stole diapers. They're someone in our neighborhood, in our community who is so desperate for such a necessity that they broke into my car and stole diapers,   Cali Binstock  00:14:03  Oh my god.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:07  and she wasn't angry. She actually said we should actually do a   Cali Binstock  00:14:09  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:12  a diaper drive because someone needs it.   Cali Binstock  00:14:14  Hold on.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:15  And I was like, oh my gosh.   Cali Binstock  00:14:16  The great but a great human she is to,   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:19  Right. Can you imagine if we looked at everything like that? Like,   Cali Binstock  00:14:20  you know, Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:24  we've been we've been harmed. Why? Can how can we help this?   Cali Binstock  00:14:27  Yeah. Well, that's, like, the chain of pain and And if you recognize it, it's the only way to, like, start breaking the chain. You know?   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:39  That's awareness. Mental health awareness.   Cali Binstock  00:14:40  Awareness is always step one. Right? Like, that's where you have to start. And then that's the only place that, like, good action. I guess you would say it would come from.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:53  Yes.   Cali Binstock  00:14:54  Right? Like, yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:57  Good humans. I mean, I can say this all day long, but there will be moments in my life where I'm, like, You know? It's like, I think I did a TikTok a while ago where I'm like, hello, all. I hope you have a wonderful day, and then, like, pretend to honk my horn and   Cali Binstock  00:15:11  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:14  yell, like, what the fuck is the matter with you?   Cali Binstock  00:15:17  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:17  It's really it's really the same thing. It's like, okay, everybody. Make you know, give everyone as a chance, not everyone is experience. You know, everyone's   Cali Binstock  00:15:27  So   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:27  you never know what everyone's experiencing, and then you turn around, you're like, why did they do this? Why did they you know, it's just depending on your day. Right?   Cali Binstock  00:15:30  yeah. Yeah. Well, relationships are if you're not regulated and you're having a gut reaction because things are chaotic, like,   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:38  Right.   Cali Binstock  00:15:43  You have to give yourself grace too, I guess, after those situations.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:46  Exactly. Yeah. I think it's right. Yeah. I I I think it all comes to, like, this this whole idea the system of regulating your nervous system. Right? We when we're dysregulated,   Cali Binstock  00:15:57  Hey.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:59  awareness is out the window.   Cali Binstock  00:16:01  Oh, yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:02  But it's also one of those things. If you train your yourself to be to will be aware when you're not   Cali Binstock  00:16:10  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:10  dysregulated, then it'll it becomes easier when you are dysregulated.   Cali Binstock  00:16:16  Through.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:17  To be able to respond and not react.   Cali Binstock  00:16:22  Exactly.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:22  And and so, yeah, I also wanted to talk about cancel culture because I think there were also a lot of people, and I agree with them, people who responded, like, what did this person do. I don't believe in cancel culture. If people canceled me, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now. And I agree with that because   Cali Binstock  00:16:41  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:43  and like I said earlier, I mentioned I don't know if you heard, but I mentioned, you know, this person   Cali Binstock  00:16:49  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:50  You know, this it just she just it just didn't work with the podcast itself. It's a trauma survivor, Thrivers Podcast.   Cali Binstock  00:16:57  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:57  And she's not in a place where she's thriving. And but I think she's in a place where she could start her healing. And I I do hope that for her. I wish that for her,   Cali Binstock  00:17:01  Yeah. Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:10  but I also agree, like, you know, canceled culture is just so volatile. Why? We don't need to we we can we can stop giving them attention because when you keep feeding into feeding into this,   Cali Binstock  00:17:22  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:24  right, then they'll just start re reacting.   Cali Binstock  00:17:25  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:28  But if you give them the space to maybe be able to see what they're doing because you can't shame people into doing things. Let's let's be real here. You can't shame people into doing the right thing. They need to figure it out for themselves. And I think in a a place to be able to do that is a place of quiet,   Cali Binstock  00:17:35  True. Yeah. Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:47  and I think cancel culture. It's not that we're canceling you. Like, you're done, but I think it's like I think it's more like   Cali Binstock  00:17:54  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:57  Okay. This is your opportunity to make some changes and understand your actions and maybe make some changes and maybe do better and help others do better.   Cali Binstock  00:18:04  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:08  And then I think that's when.   Cali Binstock  00:18:08  We all make mistakes, so I guess there's a scale of, like,   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:10  Yes.   Cali Binstock  00:18:14  you know, if someone is a dangerous human, you know, that's one thing, but   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:20  Right.   Cali Binstock  00:18:20  making mistakes and I don't know. I just it makes me think about people in jail and just the amount of incarceration in our in our country, and it just seems insane.   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:38  No. It does.   Cali Binstock  00:18:39  But how many how many people and mostly people of color in in jails for smaller crimes, and   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:44  Mhmm.   Cali Binstock  00:18:47  and, you know, the perpetuating cycle with poverty, and it's just it's not a it's it's not usually a place of rehabilitation.   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:59  Yeah.   Cali Binstock  00:18:59  It's a place of a lot of with a lot of toxicity. I'm sure they're I mean, I taught art at at our county jail here in Pittsburgh briefly. I wasn't there a long, long time, but I believe in in, you know, rehabilitation, and I think setting people up for reintegration, and it's just crazy. We don't have more mental health support for for these people.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:28  Yeah. I I think that's that's that's the issue here. The our mental health care system in America is so dysfunctional.   Cali Binstock  00:19:39  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:39  There's there's not enough going on. There's just not not enough people I mean, who can afford it really? I mean, it's very expensive   Cali Binstock  00:19:47  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:49  to get mental health treatment in America. And to get good mental health, specialized health   Cali Binstock  00:19:55  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:56  care, that's that's that it it's it's so rare. Yet we there's all these other issues that we're dealing with. But if we can if we can, like, get to the root of it, which is, like, our mental health care system, we could probably fix a lot more things.   Cali Binstock  00:20:08  Mhmm. Right. Like the the domino effect of that would be so worth it, so worth investing in.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:14  Mhmm. Yes. Inquiry. But but that's the question is if someone's you know, I I'm sure there's hundreds and hundreds of people all over America trying to work on how are we gonna get there. It's just it is a it's a it's a very daunting task. And and,   Cali Binstock  00:20:35  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:36  you know, that's why I'm kind of hoping, like, for all of us, it's just we're working on ourselves. I I'd like if if each individual   Cali Binstock  00:20:44  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:46  can work on themselves, I think that that that right there is growth. And,   Cali Binstock  00:20:49  No.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:52  again, it's that easily said, not easily done.   Cali Binstock  00:20:57  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:58  And but I I mean, I feel like talking about it, bringing awareness to it,   Cali Binstock  00:21:04  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:05  you know, I think that's everything. I think that that that's why we're having this conversation. I could have easily canceled the show.   Cali Binstock  00:21:11  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:14  But it really Cali Binstock  00:21:14  Cancel all the color. Lorilee Binstock  00:21:16  cancel culture. Yes. I but I really could not sleep just thinking about all of the stuff that was happening. Cali Binstock  00:21:23  Mhmm. Lorilee Binstock  00:21:23  And and so I did wanna briefly kinda touch on this and and, you know, have this conversation   Cali Binstock  00:21:31  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:21:32  because, you know, I, myself, was just dealing with trauma. I did awful things. That I am absolutely not proud of. I am very lucky that social media didn't exist when I was a child.   Cali Binstock  00:21:41  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:47  And   Cali Binstock  00:21:48  I know. How lucky were we?   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:50  I I mean, we were so lucky. It it scares me to think, like, if social media existed, twenty   Cali Binstock  00:21:57  God.   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:58  years ago, I'd be screwed.   Cali Binstock  00:22:01  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:01  I'd be screwed.   Cali Binstock  00:22:02  My my late teens and twenties, like, I would rather not   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:04  Mm-mm.   Cali Binstock  00:22:06  have any evidence of that.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:06  Yes. Right. Exactly.   Cali Binstock  00:22:09  And I hardly do, which is wonderful because   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:12  Exactly.   Cali Binstock  00:22:12  that was, like, traumatic in itself just that time of life.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:13  Yeah.   Cali Binstock  00:22:17  You know, just you don't know. There's so much doubt. And if you've been through trauma, like, ugh,   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:17  Right.   Cali Binstock  00:22:24  it's just the hardest time you're not gonna Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:28  Yep.   Cali Binstock  00:22:29  So much   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:29  No. I agree.   Cali Binstock  00:22:30  painful growth. You know?   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:32  Painful growth. And and I think that's what's really hard about our youth now because, you know, And that's why that's another reason why I think we we shouldn't cancel these kids. Their their brains are still developing. We don't know what they've gone through. I think it just everything deserves, like, a deeper look and   Cali Binstock  00:22:44  Right. Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:51  curiosity of other people and curiosity within yourself. Yeah.   Cali Binstock  00:22:56  Totally. Totally. I think we were when we were chatting before this, like, this is so random, but my kids had it's actually dated from, like, the early two thousands. It's the show on Nick that was on Nick Junior, that Bill Cosby, it's called Little Bill. And it was on, like, a DVD they were watching. And I just, like, randomly start thinking about, like, I wonder how he feels about everything   Lorilee Binstock  00:23:19  Mhmm. Yep.   Cali Binstock  00:23:28  Is he remorseful? Like, what I wonder if he's doing anything to better himself now? Like, all of these questions, I'm like, that could be asked for so many people.   Lorilee Binstock  00:23:37  Mhmm.   Cali Binstock  00:23:38  But, like, I don't know. I'm just it's just a thought. Like, I'm guessing we, as a society, would be more welcoming to people who were working on, you know,   Lorilee Binstock  00:23:51  Right.   Cali Binstock  00:23:52  the mistakes that they've made and trying to kinda reform themselves and, you know, have more awareness and understand the hurt and kind of, like,

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Today’s guest is Jamie Mustard, Co-Author of the book the Invisible Machine: The Startling Truth About Trauma and the Scientific Breakthrough That Can Transform Your Life. For more information about the Dual Sympathetic Reset Procedure, visit The Stella Center. Lorilee Binstock  00:16:58  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside Chat, where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I am your host, Lorriely Benstock, Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest questions on this show by requesting a hop on stage or sending a message in the chat box. I will try to get to you, but I do ask that everybody be respectful. Today's guest is Jamie mustard, co author of the book, The Invisible Machine, The startling truth about trauma and the scientific breakthrough that can transform your life. Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today. Jamie Mustard  00:17:55  Thank you for having me. I'm sorry. I've not used this platform before, so I'm just having technical difficulties. Lorilee Binstock  00:18:02  Oh, you are not the first one, and you will be the last So there's no worry there. I'm just glad we were able to get you on because I really am so fascinated by this because I've actually never heard about this. You co authored this book, the invisible machine, the startling truth about trauma, and the scientific breakthrough. Jamie Mustard  00:18:05  Perfect. I Lorilee Binstock  00:18:19  And this you did this with doctor Eugene Lipov. An anesthesiologists who developed this treatment. Could you actually describe it? Because you actually underwent this treatment. Correct? Jamie Mustard  00:18:30  I did. And one of the reasons, you know, a lot of people would ask kind of why would an artist coauthor look with, you know, Yuzhou Lab is more than a anesthesiologist. He's a you could say he's the Einstein of modern anesthesiology and a a scientist. So the question is, you know, why would write her all go author a book with that guy? And and the answer is kind of your your the way you kinda said at the top that you'd never heard of it. And the reason you've never heard of it is because it's been around for twenty years, and the military is using it. Yeah. And the military is used doing fifteen to twenty thousand of these a year. The second largest cohort getting it is sexual assault victims. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:04  Stop, really. Jamie Mustard  00:19:12  When I saw this, I saw something that, you know, whenever you see it on it's been on sixty minutes. It's been on Joe Rogan. It's been on CBS this morning. But when if you ever see it in the media, it's always at the extremes. It's always a navy seal, a fur a nine eleven first responder, when I came across this, I didn't see this as something for people at the extreme. I saw this as something that maybe could be affecting forty to fifty percent of the US and global population. So my work was to go, hey. This is not for the extreme. This is for society and everyone that is experiencing the symptoms that are associated with fight or flight that may never have even associated themselves with trauma. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:03  I mean, to be honest, I never associated myself with trauma. I'm a childhood sexual abuse survivor, and I didn't realize I experienced trauma. I thought that was just something really bad that happened that I will never talk about, but you're right. I feel like that this is very fascinating, and it's a non invasive outpatient procedure? Jamie Mustard  00:20:23  Okay. So, yeah, you asked me what it is. I wouldn't use the word noninvasive. I would use the word safe. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:27  Okay. Jamie Mustard  00:20:29  And minimally invasive. It's basically, he uses a needle to do what we well, we know it's safe because the shot was originally developed retaining hands in nineteen twenty six. It's now evolved. The doctor kind of reconfigured it and evolved it. So you it's now we call it he's evolved into what we're calling what he calls the dual sympathetic reset. And, basically, what you're doing is you're doing a pain injection that's guided that's guided by an ultrasound. You get a local anesthetic first, so you don't even it feels like nothing. And he uses an ultrasound to guide a needle that has a tiny you know, so a small amount of anesthetic in it, the same anesthetic that goes into an epidural, same two dollar amount of anesthetic that goes into an epidural. And your sympathetic nervous system is basically located in the ganglion, which is a nerves a a a a a a a a string of nerves that run from your amygdala all the way down your but your sympathetic your fight or flight system is in your neck on both sides of your neck. And what he does is he in inject this. God, I think it's I'm gonna get the name of it wrong. But yeah. But it's the same it's the same, you know, Lorilee Binstock  00:21:45  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:21:47  stuff that goes into an epidural. And what it does is it turns off your sympathetic nervous system, and it comes online about ten minutes later at baseline to the pre trauma state. So you're basically resetting the sympathetic nervous system. And what we're fine with what what they found is, you know, the adult trauma or blunt force trauma is on the right side. You can only do one side per day. K? You do two injections on one side, and then you can get the next injection the next day. Anything before puberty or childhood trauma is on the left side. And then yeah. So they'll always do the right side first, and then people that will have have had trial to hood trauma Lorilee Binstock  00:22:27  Well, Jamie Mustard  00:22:30  may not experience the reset. So they're starting more and more to to to both on almost everybody. Lorilee Binstock  00:22:40  Wow. You know, I I and, you know, I know about fight or flight, and I didn't know it was about a cluster of nerves in your neck. I'm wondering, is this why I have neck pain? Jamie Mustard  00:22:49  It might be I mean, you have to think of it like this. Well, first of all, Laura Lee, let me say thank you so much for having me. It's, you know, just a real honor to be here. Lorilee Binstock  00:22:57  Oh, of course. Jamie Mustard  00:23:00  You know, you there's two things that causes. One is blunt force trauma. Like, you and I are very Well, we're similar in this regard. I experienced an extreme massive amount of trauma as a kid probably that most people would never not be able to survive in any sort of meaningful way and live my entire life up until, I don't know, five years ago, seven years ago. Where I was in total denial that I'd even been traumatized. You know, in my in my upbringing, you know, growing up how I grew up is where I grew up in the neighborhood I grew up in. You know, being a victim was the last thing you could ever be. So I never Lorilee Binstock  00:23:30  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:23:39  the thought of thinking of myself as a victim was just not in my, you know, just in my in my thought profile. So I just didn't think I had trauma. I got therapy for the first time five or six years ago with your counseling. After about six weeks. This very lovely. I talked about this in the book. Therapists diagnosed me with, you know, acute post traumatic stress disorder. And it's not a disorder. It's actually a physical injury to the body, and you can see it on a brain scan. But she diagnosed me with PTSD. I laughed in her face, because I thought it was such a ridiculous thing. She her eyes walled up, and she looked at me And she said, Jamie, have you been listening to the stories you've been telling me? And I said, yes. And she said, how could you not? And in that moment, my whole kind of bullshit life narrative fell apart, and I kinda went home and hugged the cactus. I I started, you know, realizing not only you know, I I not only has I had I've been victimized. I had been you know, just completely savaged and ravaged as a child, you know, abandoned you know, at birth with strangers, you know, very little physical touch in and out of institutional environments. You know, all this stuff It was, you know, just severe, egregious trauma, and I was just like, wow. You know, that's normal. That's what I knew. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:11  Well, Jamie Mustard  00:25:15  Yeah. So so about five or six years ago, when my my first book came out, maybe it's less, maybe it's, you know, or maybe it was before that. I was starting to get to kinda where I wanted in life, and I for the first time ever was looking back. You know, I didn't wanna look back. But when I was getting what I wanted, my discomfort as a person wasn't going away. In my mind, I thought, god. If I'm just successful, I'll feel relaxed. And I was getting successful and feeling very unrelaxed, but actually more dis more uncomfortable than I'd ever felt, and I couldn't understand why. So I started when I got this post traumatic stress diagnosis, I started looking. I was friends I turned a literary juke with a a really well known military psychologist, Shawna Springer, Doc Springer, and she had started She was sending people for this procedure, and I ended up in the middle of COVID to have years ago, getting on a plane in the middle of COVID and going to Chicago in the winter to do this kind of what I thought was a very avant garde procedure. And it was very strange that I did that literally because when you grew up, like, raised by wolves or kinda thrown away like I was, you don't go to the doctor. So you don't go to regular doctors. Let alone go and do kind of new treatments. Lorilee Binstock  00:26:41  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:26:45  But I I when my first book came out, I had a very well known forensic psychologist named doctor j Faber, who works at Amen Clinic. He was a fan of my book, and he and I become friends. And so I just said as a friend, can you bet this thing for me? And it was all upside and no downside. And so I almost backed out fifty times, but I did it. Lorilee Binstock  00:27:11  Can you tell me what that was like? Jamie Mustard  00:27:13  Oh my gosh. Yes. It was the most transformative thing that I've ever done in my life, it completely changed my worldview. And that is because it was like, I had a lot of judgment towards people, you know, towards people where I grew up the bad neighborhoods where I grew up towards addicts. Towards people that were, you know, couldn't get their life together. I had judgment. K? When I had when I got both sides of this thing done, the discomfort that I'd been experiencing my entire life that I thought was a part of me I won't you know, was gone. It was just like I was me. I didn't feel I didn't even know I couldn't feel that way. I didn't even know because, like, when you're abandoned at birth, what's your I I never even experience baseline. Okay? Lorilee Binstock  00:28:04  Well, mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:28:07  So it I'm ever walking this is a good way to describe it. I was walking down the street after getting it in Chicago. I went to the Chicago Art Museum. I was there with friend who is supporting me. And I saw these, like, hustler guys on the street, and they were like and they were looking at me. And I kind of you know, that's something that's triggering for me. I really resent that because it kinda reminds me of my neighborhood, and these guys were looking at me like a mark. And, normally, that would make me mad. When I saw these guys, all of a sudden, I didn't see crazy people. I didn't see hustlers. I saw their biology. These guys are stuck in fight or flight. And I can explain to you what happens, but, you know, you don't need blunt force trauma. Like, what you and I went through to need this. The I think the biggest cause of this and why I think it's such a massive swath of the population, and why I think most people that have post traumatic stress. Don't even associate with trauma. You can get is that what one, two things cause this. One is blunt force trauma like what would happen in war seeing your buddy killed in front of you Lorilee Binstock  00:29:10  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:29:11  or a sexual assault. But the other thing that causes this, and I think it's the much more predominant cause is prolonged allostatic load, chronic stress over time. Okay? And so Lorilee Binstock  00:29:28  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:29:29  just so by by feeling that sense of comfort, my own body, and sense of relief. My it changed the way just I interact with people now when I see somebody reacting in fight or flight towards me rather than taking it personally or thinking they're crazy. I understand the biology of it, so it just I just I I have only compassion. Lorilee Binstock  00:29:54  That's amazing. That's amazing. And I and I feel that You're right. I feel like I don't know, like, probably ninety, even more than that percent of the population has dealt with chronic stress, especially in America. And I feel like, you know, everyone can benefit from from, you know, a a treatment like this. I feel like that there's every a lot of people everyone I know deals with a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety. And for something like this to be available and to you say twenty years. I'm like, what? I just heard about this, like, last month. And so I'm intrigued. Does this treatment need to be accompanied by ongoing therapy or or or what? What would you suggest? Jamie Mustard  00:30:43  It it it's a it's a great question, and and I'd like to answer it, and then I'd like to kinda back up and explain very specifically how one could get this and how a lot of your listeners right now are are going, well, do I have trauma and I know it? And how would you know it? And but something he's saying is resonating to me. So look with me. So I wish I could understand this more. So let me kind of explain the kind of how it works with other therapies. And then let me kind of back it up and explain why and how I came to write a book with who I think made the most preminent most important medical discovery since the discovery of Penicillin in nineteen twenty eight. And I would compare it as a human discovery to the moon landing. If we can reset the nervous system, it changes the world. And so I think this guy will go on to win the Nobel Prize because even if you compare it to the polio vaccine, you know, suicide is linked to fight or flight. If you, you know, fifty thousand people a year stopped dying because when they when the polio vaccine was discovered, I think, in the forties, That the amount of suicides this could could prevent in a year dwarfs that number compared to all the other ailments and physical conditions because this conduct if you have an a a novactive sympathetic nervous system, if your nervous system is stuck in fight or flight, you're gonna have a cascade of physiological problems. It discombobulates the immune system. It destroys this scavenger system in the body, Lorilee Binstock  00:32:13  Right. Jamie Mustard  00:32:15  which is the system that is constantly, you know, keeping you from having autoimmune diseases, orthopedic problems, cancer, that system can get discombobulated. Right? So, you know, if the body keeps the score, that I would say this is the scorekeeper. But I think maybe backing it up and and and and kind of coming to how did I come to write an artist and and our come to write a book with a a a scientist. Right? But so, basically, I went and did this thing. My life was changed. And a couple months later, I got invited by two colonels that run all the training for special forces. To speak to come to Fort Bragg and speak to special forces at JFK auditorium regarding my book, The Iconist, okay, which is kind of like a Malcolm Gladwell type book to business communications and art book. And it was kind of crazy. You know, I'm a kid from the strums slums of LA, and all of a sudden, I was going to Fort Bragg and teaching site, you know, psychological operations how to create better counter propaganda against the Russians and the Chinese. You know, I mean, it's crazy. That I would be in that situation. So I got invited to Fort Bragg. When I got this procedure, the doctor came into the wait into the to the host op room. And he said, hey. And I wish I'd get it from the inventor, doctor Eugene La Bauch, my co author. And he said, hey. I was told to treat you like a VIP. Why? And I said, well, I'm an author, and we have a mutual friend. So our mutual friend, you know, I have a bit of a platform, you know, probably wanted to make sure I was taken care of. And then he left again, and then he came back. And he said, listen. This procedure is gonna this I mean, I get what what are you this the try this anesthesia, this thing that you just got in your neck, it's gonna wear off in about seven or eight hours. Can I pick you up at the hotel and take you to dinner? And we we talk about this in the book. And I said, Sure. You know, why not? And so he picks me up from the hotel. We go to this Mexican restaurant, this fancy Mexican restaurant with the windows open. It's raining. In the middle of COVID. The wind is blowing through, and he starts pouring glasses of expensive red wine. And download and gives me a three hour download of the science and history of this thing. And my mind and my my just mouth my jaw fell up. And I remember turning to my friend who was at the dinner with us. He kinda sped off in his Tesla. We Ubered home, And I turned to my friend and I said, we just had dinner with the smartest human being I've ever met. And, you know, I've met a lot I mean, I went to the one in school then economics. I know a lot of smart people. Right? Lorilee Binstock  00:35:04  Wow. Jamie Mustard  00:35:07  So so he and I so then a few I get back to Portland a few days go by, and I get a call from this guy, and he says, hey. I just read your book. And we just started talking, and we became friends. Right after that, I got invited to Fort Bragg. And I and the doctor couldn't believe that I was being invited to Fort Bragg by these colonel. So he said, hey. Can I come sit in the audience for your talk? I know they're doing my procedure at Fort Bragg, but they won't talk to me. I don't know how. So basically, I talked to these colonel. They had never heard of this thing, the DSR at that time. It was called the FGB, the slight gainly a block. But they started researching it. They called me back, and they said, yeah. We're doing ten of these a day, six days a week. They're they were doing three thousand a year Fort Greg alone. Lorilee Binstock  00:35:57  And was this on active military? Jamie Mustard  00:36:01  Yes. Lorilee Binstock  00:36:03  Interesting. So Jamie Mustard  00:36:04  So Lorilee Binstock  00:36:05  go ahead. Jamie Mustard  00:36:05  yeah. No. So the VA was probably doing more. But the lot what really, what happened is there was a post traumatic stress, meaning where I got really upset because I had to sit in you know, the colonel's arranged ten days of meetings. Even though it was six weeks away, it normally takes seven months to a year to get grand rounds at Wilmac. Doctor Lipa, the Dunground rounds at Walter Reed, the colonels arranged for the doctor to come with me and do Grand Rounds for all the doctors at Womack because they were doing the procedure at Fort Bragg based off of the ten year old paper. So it was to bring them into all the modifications because ten years ago, this thing was seventy percent effective in the relief post traumatic stress. Now it's up to eighty and five to ninety percent. So because of latest modifications. So he did ground rounds. And in one of the post traumatic stress meetings, I sat around for two hours and listened to these guys and come back from Iraq and Afghanistan and special forces guys. And their stories, and they were all told that they had a disorder, and it made me really angry because at that point, I knew one hundred percent that they had a physical injury to their body and that post traumatic stress disorder does not exist. It's post traumatic stress injury, is it physical injury to the body? You can see it on a brain scan. So at the end of that meeting, I expressed my rage at the fact that these guys are sacrificing their bodies, their families, their wives, their children. They don't come back the same. And then they're being then their government is telling them they're crazy. It may be mad. And I said that. And so I think the guy that runs the health initiative task force, I think he was kind of you know, he kinda saw me as this Arty Rider guy. He didn't know what to make of me. But when I expressed my truth. I think he kinda started to respect me, and he called me over at the end of the meeting. And he said, Jamie, have you ever heard of operator syndrome? And I said, no. And he showed of these symptoms on his phone. It was about eight symptoms. And the the symptoms that you would experience if you were running from a tiger Okay? And I and and that this is what happens if you're never in a fight or fight at Fort Black bragging. Or to say, you're never in a fire fight in Afghanistan or Iraq, but you just you're deployed at a firebase, and you have the stress of being away from your family, and maybe you could die that day from an IED or from something else. Right? So it's this prolonged allostatic load, but you're never in a fight. They call that operator syndrome. Okay? And when I saw that list of symptoms, Laura Lee, I didn't see the military. I saw the Mexican neighborhoods where I grew up in Los Angeles. And so my mind started spinning. Could it be that the stress of poverty or if you're middle class and the stress of having distant parents, a mother that needles you, a mean father, could it be that the chronic stress of that, a divorce could cause the exact same biological injury as someone coming back from war. Because the sympathetic nervous system is a machine, an invisible machine, hence the name of the book, the invisible machine. Could it be that that it doesn't think it's apathetic. So could it be that average people have the exact same symptoms in their body as someone coming back from war, but they don't know it because they just got it from having, you know, parents that didn't hug them. Or talk to them a certain way. And that and that's where my mind met doctor Lipov's staggering innovation. Lorilee Binstock  00:39:28  Yeah. I mean, that affects the majority of people. Right? These are these they they are considered, I guess, little tee traumas, but the react the reaction and the activation within the you know, the amygdala, it's all the same. Right? Jamie Mustard  00:39:46  Yeah. I mean, let me kinda tell you kind of how let me kind of give a primitive way of how one gets this. Lorilee Binstock  00:39:51  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:39:51  And then go and why don't I go over the seven symptoms? That way, the people listening can go, well, I don't have trauma. Then they can listen to me, list it, and they go, maybe I do. Right? Lorilee Binstock  00:40:01  Please. Please. Jamie Mustard  00:40:01  So yeah. So listen. I people, like, at the extreme, were seeking this out and finding it. But people like me were not and and, again, I wasn't the extreme. I just didn't know it. And I you know, my goal was to bring this to military My goal is to bring this into the light, and I think it should be more popular or known than LASIK. It contains the way we we interact. As a species. But, basically, you have to think of it as if you were running from a tiger. You know, you live in a jungle, you know, a bounce years ago, you're and you're and you're a tiger comes out of nowhere. Well, in the moment, It's Peter Levine's work. That guy, he wrote a book, I think, in the yeah. In the was it in the eighties or nineties cold run? Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:43  Yeah. Awaken. Awaken the tiger. Jamie Mustard  00:40:48  Yeah. Running from the tiger. Yeah. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:48  An unspoken voice. Yeah. It's a yeah. Awaken the Tiger. Yes. I've read I've read the unspoken voice of Peter Levine. I'm fascinated with somatic experiencing. But, yes, continue. Jamie Mustard  00:40:55  Okay. Okay. So, say, a tiger comes out of nowhere. You live in the jungle a thousand years ago. Well, what is gonna happen in that moment? Is you're gonna have seven or eight symptoms. K? You're gonna have seven or eight feelings. Your amygdala is gonna send a signal to these nerves on each side of your neck, and that's gonna jerk you into response. So you are walking on you're hiking up a mountain, and there's a cliff, and you almost slip and fall down it. Your amygdala sends a signal you signal to these are you on the swerve your car and hit somebody, but just you avert the accident just in time because your amygdala sends a signal to these nerves in your neck that jerk you in action to either flee or fight for your life. K? Fireflies. Lorilee Binstock  00:41:40  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:41:40  Well, typically, if that happens and it's something like swerving your car, you're heightened for five maybe three to five hours because you felt like you almost died. And then for for, you know, four or five hours later, you'll come back down to baseline. Right? But if the trauma is too great, like your buddy being killed in front of you, or you or then or a sexual assault, and you have this overwhelming trauma. The your your sympathetic nervous system actually gets locked into fire flight. So you're locked into feeling like you're running from a tiger twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five days a year, seven days a week. K? So what would you experience if a tiger or leap out of you? You would experience anxiety. You'd be anxious that the tiger was gonna kill you. You'd have mild paranoia that the tiger was right there at that that moment. You would have a sense of doom. You'd feel like the other shoe is gonna drop every second because you knew the tiger was right there. You would be hyper vigilant about the tiger. You would be hyper aroused about the tiger. You wouldn't be able to sleep because you can't sleep if a tiger is chasing you. You would be highly reactive and have a hair trigger because you would need to be reactive to survive the tiger. Lorilee Binstock  00:42:49  Right. Jamie Mustard  00:42:55  K? And these guys that come back from Afghanistan and Iraq, a massive majority of them, something like twenty five percent of them all have erectile dysfunction because you can't have sex if you're running from a tiger. In the military, the ultimate form of fight, and the ultimate form of flight in the military, suicide, is the ultimate form of flight where people are changing to protect. It's the ultimate form of flight. In the neighborhoods where I grew up where maybe violence is acceptable, or life is cheaper, homicide is the ultimate form of fight. So I believe when you see these violence rates in the community that I live in, and you see these suicide rates in the military, it is one hundred percent an overactive sympathetic nervous system. So when you experience those symptoms, you can get that say the tiger never eats you. You're just in a jungle where there's lots of tigers. So you're you're carrying the stress of the type of tigers all the time. K? It it would be a it would be a survival mechanism. It would be a survival tool to be locked in firefly. It actually would help you to survive. K? The problem is if you're sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, eating Cheetos, and drinking, you know, a LaCroix, and you're feeling that way, it creates a really, really big problem. And and think about it also like this. We're meant to experience those symptoms, anxiety, paranoia, sense of doom or mild paranoid, hyper vigilant, hyper aroused, a lack of sleep, hair trigger reactivity. We're meant to experience that for about thirty seconds where we either flee from the tiger or we fight the tiger. K? And then we're supposed to calm down and be normal as humans. K? Those are supposed to be short bursts. Lorilee Binstock  00:44:43  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:44:46  Of fight or flight. If you have to experience like a tiger is gonna eat you in every second, twenty all the time. Which is what happens when your sympathetic gets stuck in fight or flight. You're gonna you're not gonna wanna live. You're gonna wanna kill yourself. We're not designed to wanna live like a tiger is gonna eat us every second. You're gonna either wanna kill yourself or you're gonna wanna kill somebody. Right? So there was a guy named Frank Oport who defined Lorilee Binstock  00:45:13  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:45:16  Stockholm syndrome, for the in the nineteen seventies for the FBI, and he's a very famous psychiatrist. And and in two thousand twelve, He's been working since two thousand twelve. He's been working very hard with others to try and get the name changed from post traumatic stress disorder. To post traumatic stress, injury, PTSD. So can I keep going? I don't you know, I don't be able to Okay. So okay. Okay. No. So so Lorilee Binstock  00:45:44  Of course. Yes. Keep going. No. This is fascinating. Jamie Mustard  00:45:49  so let's back it up. So let so everyone's different. Like, the You can, to a child, a father that is distant, a mother that needles you, that allastatic load for a child is staggering. And that person would not associate themselves with trauma. So I'm trying to get this away from just the extremes. I want those people to get it, but I'm trying to bring this to it. Kindergarten teachers, yoga instructors, plumbers, CEOs, accountants, attorneys. I'm trying to bring this to the every person. Right? But, you know, I think a really good way to explain this is Back at nineteen seventy, doctor Frank Ochberg, this guy that came up with a term post traumatic stress injury, And, again, you can see this on a brain scan, Laura Lee. So if I if someone has an overactive sympathetic nervous system and I scan their brain with a functional MRI, I will see overactivity in their amygdala, and I will see decreased blood flow to their frontal cortex. Normally to g to fix to kind of mitigate against that, and then we're gonna get after I explain this, we'll get to how it relates to other therapies. Normally, to mitigate against that, I might need six months of hyperbaric, no drugs and alcohol, Cademy, so as you know, I could do a million things, and I would only mitigate against that so much. To and I could get some decrease in that overactivity in the amygdala from all those therapies for years. And maybe I would get some increased blood flow to my frontal cortex. If you do this injection where you just reset the nervous system with no side effects no long term side effects. There's a side effect that day. They get you get it. And then the second day, you get it. And then by the evening of both days, it's gone. If you get the reset, you you're just a person again, and you're not having to use all these things to it's like physical therapy in a broken leg. You wouldn't do physical therapy over a broken leg. You'd set the leg, then you'd do physical therapy. So all these incredible therapies work but we're doing them over a broken leg. Lorilee Binstock  00:48:03  Right. Jamie Mustard  00:48:08  And so what you would see on a brain scan after doing a DSR dual sympathetic reset is that overactivity in the amygdala would be gone in a day. It'd be completely gone, and you have increased blood flow to the your frontal cortex in a way that that years of all those other modalities combined would never achieve. Because you're doing physical therapy over a broken leg. It also when you when you call it a disorder, it's incredibly stigmatizing, and you could even say inhumane if it's a lie, which it is because it's actually a physical injury of the body. So it's like, if you we don't have broken leg syndrome or broken leg disorder. When you call something a mental disorder that's actually a physical injury, it's very harmful. Incredibly stigmatizing. But if you call it a physical injury, you take all the stigma away. No one has a stigma for over you having a broken leg because you can see it. Lorilee Binstock  00:48:59  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:49:08  You can't see an overactive sympathetic, but it's just as broken as a broken leg. It's the best metaphor to describe it. And that's why we call the book the Invisible Machine, the StarLink truth about Trauma, and the scientific breakthrough that can transform your life. But what I'd like to do, Lorely, and then I'll kind of back up and answer your question next question. I think I think this is the best way for people to understand and and and unequivocally that what I'm saying is true. Like, I can hear people listening right now going, is that true? Is that true? Come on. How can it be a physical injury? I'm gonna say, well, here's how it's a physical injury. When I explain this, no one no one will question it anymore. K? Because I'll give you an an analogy that everyone can understand. Back in nineteen seventy, doctor Frank Ochberg published a book with a one through Stanford, scientists, the guy that came up with PTSD in two thousand twelve back in nineteen excuse me. He published a book called violence and the struggle for existence. That book was put out by Little Brown, It was the the the forward to that book was written by Caretta Scott King, the wife of doctor Martin Luther King because it was two years after his assassination. Violence in the struggle for existence. In that book, there is a chapter called biology and aggression. And and what what what these scientists explain is we one hundred percent know that trauma is biological. And the reason we know it, we don't know how, but the reason we know it is because if you beat or abuse a dog, a goat, a chicken, a cat, it's behavior changes. Either becomes highly aggressive, fight, or incredibly timid, flight. Well, we didn't just give that goat or that dog a disorder. It's not sentient in the same way a human being is. So doctors, we knew we've known for a long, long time that when we traumatize something, we've changed the biology. We just didn't know how until doctor Lipac first published on this in two thousand, I think, two thousand eight. Barack Obama endorsed this as far back as two thousand ten. So it's it's been out there. It's just always associated with the extreme. You know? So when pop when doctor Lipa published on this in two thousand eight, Frank Ochberg found him. Now they're close friends. So, obviously, we've all can relate to an animal that we know has been traumatized. We didn't give it a disorder. We know we've changed this biology. Doctor Lipov figured out how and then how to reset anybody to the pre trauma state. Lorilee Binstock  00:52:04  Wow. Well, I've this is this is extremely fascinating because, you know, I I am a huge fan. I don't know if you've listened to any of my podcasts prior, but I'm a huge advocate for psychedelic assisted therapy. But I I'm would you say that doing something like the DSR And then, I mean, do you if for it to go haywire again, you would just have to experience traffic and or or you're completely reset. Jamie Mustard  00:52:33  No. If you go traumatize yourself again, you're one hundred percent going to have to do this. You know? So a couple things I would, you know, say is one thing is, you know, what one of the things that got me started on this journey. Is that is a conversation that I had with Daniel Amon? Do you know who he is? Lorilee Binstock  00:52:53  Yes. I do. Yes. Very fascinating stuff. Jamie Mustard  00:52:54  Okay. Yeah. The ring that came to meet Daniel Amon is that forensic psychiatrist, doctor j Faber, who got me really started on this journey. I mean, I would not If I don't meet Kaye Faber, who runs the Encino Amon Clinic, who's probably the most bona fide forensic psychiatrist in the United States, maybe the world in terms of education, degrees, and board certifications. He was a fan of the book, The Economist. He contacted me on the website and said, can you come to LA and speak to inner city kids, and I'll pay you through my my foundation? And I said, well, hey, man. I'll I'll come to LA, and I'll talk to kids. But I don't think I could take money for going to my hometown and talking to kids. But but I'll come out and do it, but I I just wanna take your money. And but public speaking is a way that I make money, but just I wouldn't do it that way. Yeah. I wouldn't do I I told my agent that I couldn't charge for that. You know? And Lorilee Binstock  00:53:47  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:53:47  but this guy, he reads he and I become friends. So he's the one that vetted the at the time it was SGB, now it's DCR DSR for me. And, basically, I asked him about this because I was really wanting to feel better because I was successful And now I didn't have a reason for discomfort because I thought, well, if I just achieved my goals, I'll I'll feel good. And then I had all my goals achieved, and I was feeling worse than ever, and that was causing me to be very concerned. And what you know, and the precursor to that is you know, growing up in poverty, people you know, I was semi literate into my late teens. And I went from because through the a relative gave me an opportunity, to not be in poverty and to just focus on my studies for the first time in my life and to have eyeglasses and medical care when I was nineteen. And I went from doing remedial classes at a community college to graduating from the London School of Economics in just over five years. Lorilee Binstock  00:54:46  No. Jamie Mustard  00:54:47  And people say, how did you do that? Why did you do that? And the thing was I was desperate. I had lived in poverty and ignorance. And in my mind, I thought if I have affluence, which an education, that means I won't have pain. So if if if if if poverty and ignorance meant pain, affluence and education would mean no pain. So it drove me to this extraordinary overcoming of my life. And I remember arriving to the one in school of economics at twenty one or twenty years old, you know, twenty one years old Man. And thinking, finally, I would be I was away from pain, and I was around, you know, the some of the most smartest people in the world And when I got there, they had they were just as messed up and maybe had more problems than the people in the neighborhoods where I grew up. And so my whole premise fell apart, Laura Lee, because I thought, well, at least we had a reason to have these problems. We're dealing with, you know, reality every day in terms of aspects of survival. These guys are just have out everything that you can imagine, but they have the same anomalies and problems. And and so I was kind of disheartened and deflated because it didn't solve my problems. I didn't understand why everyone experiences this these aspects of existence until I went through this procedure twenty years later, twenty five years later. Okay? But So, you know, one thing that kind of got me on on this project also was three and a half years ago, doctor Lipbob teamed up with a private equity firm Sterling Partners and and Chicago. They are a multimillion dollar private equity firm to open up clinics all over the United States, which is called the Stella Center. And one thing I would say is the only place that has doctor Lipob's, what I would call, the Stella protocols. Doctor Lipob is the chief medical officer there. Is the Stella center. There's thirty five of them in the United States. If you don't go to a Stella center, you're not getting this. Okay? But without them, I would have never chosen to do a book because why promote a book to the world if it's not available to everyone? Right? But back to this conversation. Lorilee Binstock  00:57:03  That's what I was gonna ask. Jamie Mustard  00:57:05  Yeah. But let me tell you about this conversation with Daniel Amon, and then I'll shut up and open and let your your questions. So so doctor one day, doctor Faber said to me, we and I become friends. He'd written a book called Escape, rehabilitate your brain and stay on the legal system that kind of really where he where they were able to rehabilitate people's brains that had been through addicts, and I was really impressed by the data science in that book. And so one day, he starts insisting that Daniel, Eamon and I have to have a phone call. Right? So So he he forces Daniel Amon and I onto a Zoom call. I was excited about it because I get to meet, you know, the great Daniel Amon. I think Daniel Lima did not wanna be there. Lorilee Binstock  00:57:47  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  00:57:48  He was like, what am I doing on a call with this guy? And so what I did for the first four it was about an hour and a half call. What I did the first forty five minutes of that call was just asked Daniel questions. Why this? Why that? You know, just was curious. And I think after about forty five minutes later, And, you know, he said, how can I help you? Jamie, what do you want for me? And I said, listen. You're the one that's been leading the charge for the last thirty years saying, that mental issues or brain health issues, that they're biological. He knew nothing about the this aspect of the sympathetic nervous system, the SDB. I wouldn't say nothing, but it was not something he'd been investigating. He was mostly dealing with brain toxicity and TBI. Lorilee Binstock  00:58:30  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:58:31  And I said, listen. You're the one that's been leading this charge. So if I'm right and this is an a major part of the mechanism, a, then you just you need to be a part of it. You know, you're the one that you're the first person through the gate taking all the hits. Saying this stuff is biological. This is a major part of the equation. You I think that it makes total sense that you're a part of this. And so he this is forty five minutes in. I can kinda see him relax, and he says, hold on. And he starts googling right in front of me thoroughly. And I I we're I'm staring at him through the Zoom, and his kinda mouth comes, falls open, and he goes, and I said, what? And he said, hey. There is a very credible study here that says that this is seventy percent effective in the permanent relief of most ex post traumatic stress symptoms. And I said, whoa. Whoa. Whoa, Daniel? And then and he said, And I said, well, Daniel, that's an old study with the it's gotta be a ten year old paper with the recent modifications of the dual injection in the right and left side. It's at eighty five to ninety percent. Lorilee Binstock  00:59:34  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  00:59:42  And Daniel Lehman looks at me through the Zoom and says, Jamie, you don't understand. At seventy percent, this is no surprise winning work. I'll help you. Lorilee Binstock  00:59:56  Wow. Jamie Mustard  00:59:57  Yeah. And then he's been a massive partner for me. You know, I sent my first awarded people that I sent to Chicago because they were doing it wrong at Womac, was I a private jet company donated a plane to send thirteen of my special forces operators, to Fort Bragg, or no, to to Chicago. I scan their brains and name in clinic in Chicago, do this procedure on them over two days, scan their brains again less than forty eight hours later, and Amy. So Amy's been a massive supporter partner for me. I could not have done this book without him. Lorilee Binstock  01:00:29  Wow. Amazing. Amazing. So Is this procedure covered by insurance by any chance? Jamie Mustard  01:00:37  It isn't, but it's actually a not a very expensive procedure compared to the cost of talk therapy, the cost of all the other things that you could be doing out there. Compared to hyperbaric. You can there's a it's typically I think it's probably in the two to three thousand dollar range. But you don't have but it but then but the amount of gain or I don't know if I wanna use that word, but the amount of Lorilee Binstock  01:01:00  Benefit. Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  01:01:01  benefit, change, relief, comfort is kind of hard to It's it's it's too unbelievable. You know, it's it's it's it's I mean, it's it's it's like it's you just I was nervous to do it, Lolly, because I'm an artist, and I thought if my angst goes away, will I be able to create? Lorilee Binstock  01:01:23  Oh, yes. That's a very yeah. That's a very legitimate concern as an artist. Jamie Mustard  01:01:27  Yeah. But the yeah. But the thing is, like you know, think about it like but here's what actually happened. That was my concern. But here's what happened. If you're stuck in fight or flight and you think there's a tiger every second of the day, you're not gonna be able to experience emotion. You're not gonna cry during a movie, or have lovely moments with people. If you feel like a tiger is about to eat you all the time, you're concerned with a tiger. These mere nerves in your neck are lying to your brain. So when that when that went away and I was no longer in fire flight, I was ex my joy My ability to experience emotion was just freed, and it made me a far better artist. Lorilee Binstock  01:02:05  Wow. Well, I you know, I'm just I am bothered by the fact that there's so many effective treatments I feel like that are out there. And this being a Jamie Mustard  01:02:06  Yep. Lorilee Binstock  01:02:15  a huge one that insurance doesn't cover, but they'll they cover talk therapy for twenty, thirty years. Makes you wonder. But, yes, this is is this something that anyone's, like, lobbying for for for insurance to say, hey. This is mental health is a huge problem, you know, in our country and worldwide. You know, this is something that that should be covered for for the majority of people who probably need it the most are probably the ones that who wouldn't be able to spend you know, two thousand, three thousand dollars on it. You know, this this is this is this is my concern with psychedelic work or I mean, I'm ketamine is not my my one of the things that I advocate for, but, I mean, you know, the other stuff is illegal. But once it does become legal, you know, the insurance is is probably not going to cover it, especially immediately, and they're not even covering ketamine, which is legal. So is this something that, you know, somebody is is mhmm. Jamie Mustard  01:03:14  Oh, okay. It's a great question. It's a great question. And I will say that I'm a massive fan of ketamine. Okay? And the reason I'm a fan of ketamine is because of how it works. What you know, I'm not a fan of the disassociate associative state. I don't think that's how it works. A lot of people would disagree with me. Ketamine, the way that doctor Lip Bob, if you were here, would describe it, is like fertilizer for nerve growth in the brain. Lorilee Binstock  01:03:41  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  01:03:41  So a lot of people that have that are having mental issues You know, when I was on that call with Daniel, I kept using the term mental illness or something. He looked at me really sour one time, and he said, please. Don't use that term. Please stop. And I said, why? What's wrong with it? He goes, well, it's not true. It's not no one has that. I said, well, it's stigmatizing, and it's inhumane, and it's not true. And I said, well, we what what do you use? And he said brain health issues. Let's just call it brain health issues. Lorilee Binstock  01:04:15  That's legit. Yeah. Jamie Mustard  01:04:16  Yeah. So so, you know, Nathaniel's been scanning brains since nineteen eighty nine. His whole thing was when he started and he was a considered, you know, an out outsider for a long time and had a opposed, you know, even a quack. As the brain science has come in the last ten years, he's been hailed as a genius and hero. Okay? And but, basically, his view was, you know, if your arm hurts and I'm gonna get to the insurance, thing. I just wanna give this kind of entry to it. If your arm hurts or your leg hurts, you x-ray it. Somebody acts crazy, and you know one's looking at people's brains when they act crazy, he thought that made no sense. And that's why in nineteen eighty nine, over thirty years ago, he started scanning brains. In the last thirty years, it's made him the most famous psychiatrist in America that probably drugs people the least. His thing on drugs on on on psychotropics is when you use a psychotropic, which can be effective to give somebody relief, you're creating a problem to solve a problem. The psychotropic changes your brain so that you need it. So now you have two problems. That he thinks you know, so But so he's got a massive dataset of what of what of two almost two hundred thousand brain scans. So one of the things that we know is we know that alcohol ravages the brain in terms of blood flow and other toxicities. With Lorilee Binstock  01:05:38  Right. Jamie Mustard  01:05:40  THC is even worse. So we freed up marijuana. It's legal in the state of Oregon where I live, but it actually ravages the brain and creates all sorts of mental problems in terms of this the anxiety, and and then you need it just to feel normal, and you're destroying your brain. Okay? So all I'm interested in is the data science. But back to this insurance question, right now, this NYU study is being done. The army's been studying for years. So there's lots of incredible studies. There's one sixty minutes. There was a sixty minutes episode five, ten years ago that talked about the army study. But the right now, the the the there's a a study being done in FMRI or an FMRI study being done in NYU that makes this unequivocally undeniable. So I don't think we're far away from the insurance companies approving this. Also, the the doctor is connected to a nonprofit charity. Called Race PTSD now, and they're paying for treatment for a phenomenal amount of people. So you can apply to to that. But what I would say is, you know, get the invisible machine book, understand that a huge part of the book is explaining how this relates to all the other incredible therapeutics out there. I believe psilocybin works. We don't have a lot of data on the long term effects of it. But with with the DSR, there's no down there I don't wanna say there's no real downside. You get all of the gain. You get it instantly. And you don't have to worry about you know, I've had people tell me they do psilocybin and they have a really bad experience on what psychological or same thing with ketamine, which I'm a fan of. So this is all the upside with none of the downside, and you yeah, I had a doctor one time, a military doctor that was telling me that, you know, that there you know, this wasn't the only treatment, and I was overselling it and blah blah blah blah blah blah. And at Fort Bragg, and I and I said to her, okay. Let me ask you a question. Say somebody was in real trouble, and they weren't feeling well. And they can and then you have every modality at what your disposal to give them. What should they do first? And she said, well, they should do the DSR first because then we that they would get so far in so little time with no downside, that it would it makes everything else more effective. So what we're finding is that people that reset the It's the difference between physical therapy and a broken leg, Laura Lee. You physical therapy is gonna be far more effective if you reset the leg. You wouldn't do physical therapy over a broken mic. So you're gonna find that if you do psilocybin, where you do hyperbaric, where you do talk therapy, These things go exponentially faster and better and have more far more efficacy if you do a d s DSR first. The my most there's a again, all of this is parsed apart in the book, the Invisalign. The Temple of that book is a guy named Trevor Beenan, who is a guy that I was afraid of for about a year, who's now one of my best friends, and I was afraid of him. I was afraid of him because I interviewed him at Fort Bragg. He is a guy that was molested by a stepfather for eight years from eight to sixteen. The guy went to jail. He shot up medical heroin in Afghanistan. He killed people. He's seen people killed. And for thirty years, he was homicidal towards a stepfather in suicidal. The only thing keeping him alive was his wife and his children. This guy just hit just wanted to die. And so when I met him, I interviewed him for three hours of Fort Bragg, was the hardest interview I ever did. He started calling me wanting to talk, and I did not want that. I didn't want he wanted to send me stuff. I didn't want him having my address. I was terrified of this guy when I got back to Portland after that trip before Greg. The you the military does not want special forces doesn't want crazy special operators out there. So there's they get more resources than regular army. They they had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, trying to giving Trevor, everything you could possibly reimagine, e m d r, every therapy, the the greenberry foundation, the military would pay for him to get better. Nothing worked. He was suicidal and homicidal towards his stepfather. After that interview, it took me six months to get her to Chicago, That was eighteen months ago, Trevor's just gone back to being a person. And Lorilee Binstock  01:10:15  No. Wow. Jamie Mustard  01:10:17  and the and, you know, and and what's and and, you know, you you would never know there's anything wrong with him. He looks like a guy that would be playing he he looks like an actor that would play a special forces hero in a movie. He's just a good looking white guy. You know? But he was beating him the Latin kings at eleven Lorilee Binstock  01:10:33  Yeah. Jamie Mustard  01:10:35  and grew up in poverty outside of Chicago, but you would never know it from looking at him. And so that so three months ago, he's doing ten in Portland, He came to addition for Ted in Portland a few months ago, and this guy that I didn't wanna even know before he did the DSR stayed in my house. Lorilee Binstock  01:10:55  Well, wow. Jamie Mustard  01:10:55  Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So so the so that's how I I the the way I explained in terms of other therapies is set the leg, and then all these other amazing modalities out there will be so much more effective. Lorilee Binstock  01:11:10  You really have me. I'm like, after this conversation, I'm going to be googling where this is this treatment is available because I am extremely intrigued because Yes. I've done, you know, the psilocybin, the MDMA, and it has worked wonders for me. I was able to get off of all my SSM our eyes. And but there, you know, there are moments when I I I feel like my nervous system just gets goes haywire, you know, after like, four or five months after I've done it. So I'm wondering, like, am I I should I try this DSR treatment? And then continue along my IFS therapy and, you know, whatever else that that, you know, I'm doing now. And, yeah, I'm I'm extremely intrigued. Where can we find more information about where this is available? Jamie Mustard  01:12:02  Okay. Well well, can can I comment on what you just said about yourself? And then I'll tell you. Lorilee Binstock  01:12:05  Yes. Please. Jamie Mustard  01:12:08  Listen. You're any other thing that you're doing, you're mitigating against it. These things work. Like, yoga works. We're also not meant to live in artificial cities and virtual environments. So this system is a very useful system if they were in a tiger infested jungle, being stuck in fight or fight is actually very good. We actually it makes sense. That trauma is not a disorder. It makes sense that it's a physical injury because we would all have to have an identical response to fire flight or to trauma with fire flight if we're gonna survive as a species. It doesn't make any sense that it would be a disorder. Okay? We you were of a survival species. We have to have a homogeneous uniform response Lorilee Binstock  01:12:41  Mhmm. Jamie Mustard  01:12:48  to survival or we don't survive. K? But, you know, what you're doing when you do yoga, psilocybin I've seen wonders with psilocybin. And hyperbaric wonders, but a lot of that is your minute it's mitigation. Like, you have to do yoga. You have to run every day. Nature is incredible. You know, we're we're you know, I find, you know, nature helps mitigate against this, but we don't live in most of us don't live in natural environments anymore, so we don't have that mitigator. Lorilee Binstock  01:13:14  Right. Jamie Mustard  01:13:15  Right? So you can kind of reduce it and bring it down through holistic health. But the only way to reset it is to reset it. Okay? Again, the the Stella center. Go to I I think it's is it stellar center dot com? Lorilee Binstock  01:13:33  I might be able to find it. Jamie Mustard  01:13:34  Yeah. Let me Lorilee Binstock  01:13:35  Sela center dot com. Yep. You're right. Jamie Mustard  01:13:37  yeah. Yeah. Or go to talk yeah. I would also highly recommend Lorilee Binstock  01:13:38  Excellent. Jamie Mustard  01:13:42  if you're not getting this from Stella Center, I don't work for them. They don't pay me. K. I'm not a I just note the only place that has the modern protocols, which I'll call the stellar protocols, is the stellar center. I if you're not getting this, if you're not going to sell a center, you're not getting this. That's why I had to send my first cohort of people two years ago from Fort Bragg from Woamath, the most advanced medical hospital a military hospital in the world, I had to send my guys to Chicago. So first of all, Larlie, where do you live? Lorilee Binstock  01:14:16  I live in Washington, DC. Jamie Mustard  01:14:18  Okay. Well, they're Lorilee Binstock  01:14:20  There's one in New York, I see. Jamie Mustard  01:14:20  I would highly recommend Yeah. I do go to New York. No. Like like, you you're like, first of all, let's talk offline, but I I would I want you to go to Chicago and get it from doctor Lipoff. Lorilee Binstock  01:14:27  Yes. Jamie Mustard  01:14:32  Unequivocally. Okay? And if you do that, I'll get you a discount. Okay? Lorilee Binstock  01:14:36  Well, yes. Well, let's let let's chat after this conversation. She said, yes. That's a very Jamie Mustard  01:14:39  Okay. Okay. If you decide, there's pressure. Lorilee Binstock  01:14:42  no. I I'm very intrigued. I I'm trust me. I I mean, from where I was five years ago is just exponentially better. I don't recognize who I was, but I do have these moments where You know? I'm I just tore my ACL. I've just I'm recovering from ACL surgery, and I was single parenting for, like, a week, and my children just the sound of my children's voices up stairs screaming would, like, send me into, like, this, like, what is happening? I'm just freaking out over no reason. It's really because and I'm and I imagine myself and I think about Peter Levine's book where I was, like, maybe I'm I feel like a wounded animal with the just this this slight sound of, like, danger or any issues sends my nervous system, like, off the charts. And this was over the last week. Jamie Mustard  01:15:29  Yeah. One hundred percent one of the things I hear over and over, and this is true for me, is, you know, that moment where you just react, that's a physiological response. That is an overactive sympathetic nervous system. That's what went away when I got this. So you get that extra five seconds. You get that extra ten seconds where you're not having a physiological

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, April 19th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Today's guest is Mandy Harvey, a global leader in trauma healing.   Lorilee Binstock  00:00:34  Welcome. I'm Loriee Binstock And this is a trauma survivor, thriver's podcast. Hello, everyone. My apologies Thank you, for so much for joining me today live on FireSide chat where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual on and time your home loyalty been stuck. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest question if By requesting to hop on stage, you're sending a message in the chat box, I will try to get to you but I do I ask everyone be respectful. Today's guest is Mandy rv she is a global leader in trauma healing. Maybe, thank you so much for joining me today.   Mandy Harvey  00:03:20  You're welcome. Thank you for having me.   Lorilee Binstock  00:03:23  Well, I do want to talk to... You know where I wanna talk to you about chronic illness and trauma in that connection. We've had folks talk a little bit about that. But you also have a program and a protocol to actually solve it all. So for for people who haven't heard anyway previous podcast. Could you imagine talk about the connection between chronic illness and trauma.   Mandy Harvey  00:03:51  Yeah. Absolutely. Well, what's very interesting about chronic health issues as we become adults once we start to develop them, it's not in uncommon. I think we all know someone or more than one person who might suffer with some type of chronic health issue or autoimmune condition. It is a very common experience. But there is a correlation between developing that later in life and what we experience in our early childhood. And What's really interesting to mean is that our protocols currently to care for our chronic health issues to care for our our autoimmune condition are often focused on our diet, which is an important element. It's focus on our lifestyle, which is also important and perhaps some medication But the people that I work with off and don't resolve their health issues or don't feel a sense of relief with those three pillars. And in my own hinge of being a functional nutritional therapy practitioner. And someone who is also experiencing practice I started to really dive into the under eigenvalues of why would I like get... Why would someone struggle to improve their health when they're eating the right things. When they are moving their bodies in the right way, and they're feeling some relief, but they're really not able to get over the edge of feeling like they're able to thrive in their life. And as I started to, I need cover and discover kind of the correlation between our early childhood experiences in our house leader in life, that really showed to help me see this many piece that we often don't. We don't include in our protocols we're not told about it, and That was also the key for myself and it comes down to what I like to talk about in terms of emotions in our immune system. So emotions in general, they have one fundamental function. And that really our emotions that you think about them is to allow what is healthy, what is nourishing and what a supportive for us, allowing my into our life and Our emotions can also help us keep out what is toxic and dangerous. They can become this filter for us. They can be this kind of this roadmap map if you will to help and and know which what helpful for us and what isn't helpful. But that is also the role of our immune system. Our immune system does exactly the thing It's to keep out what's toxic and to let in what's nourishing lighting in the nutrients of vitamins, the healthy bacteria, and to keep out and destroy what isn't healthy and a port of? So the emotional in the immune system are exactly the same function. So when we experience something traumatic in childhood, or even if we well, meaning, parents, but they unfortunately just didn't meet our needs as a child, And we learn that we need to refresh our emotions or we learn to hold shame about who we are and how we're how how we're feeling or we are taught that we are you know, we believe are bad or wrong because of experiences we've had in childhood. We start to refresh ourselves physically, and that can have an impact on our immune system. So the more that we learn to sorry emotions and the more that we impress ourselves just in general, the more impact it has in our immune. So when we going a little bit deeper in the childhood when we have a traumatic experience in childhood or we have ongoing traumatic experiences like abuse or an neglect or emotionally unavailable. Caretaker or anything in the realm of that. We our bodies go through a process to activate our stress hormone. So say we experience them. Fall our body goes to the process of activating our adrenals and activating our hormones months that process is meant to help us ready our body to site a threat to run away from the threat or and you know, get ourselves to safety but as the child oftentimes, if we're experiencing abuse on a regular basis, we or any of these instructions circumstances would... I just shared. We're not able to   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:48  Mhmm.   Mandy Harvey  00:08:47  run away or fight our abuse in most cases. And so the body cannot turn off those functions once it has started. And what happens is one that trauma as a child gets stuck in our body and in our psyche, but to that stress of that trauma. And the activation of our stress hormones. To ready our body to fight or flee that process start to impact our biology, and it essentially, makes us more susceptible to getting stressed. Faster. So if you think about we experience something like that in childhood, and as we become an adult. We may... If we have not, healed those experiences and we're we've learned to of physically that stress response becomes faster and found   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:41  Mm-mm   Mandy Harvey  00:09:42  share and faster. We experience stress an adult And eventually, our bodies just get out. We can only handle so much. Before our bodies burn out, and then we start to develop these chronic health issues because of the impact, that that's stressed. Had had on our immune system and the be rep refreshing of those emotions and the energy of those emotions in our body starts to deteriorate our health, and then we start to develop these health issues.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:09  Wow, you know, I manic experiencing was so vital in my healing and understanding trauma when I was first seeking help in twenty twenty and residential treatment   Mandy Harvey  00:10:30  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:29  experiencing was a big part of it. And so I'm able to kind of understand that I obviously have my moments where I've I I can't really think logically and rash about what's actually happening in my brain, But you know, I I think you know this. I I actually tour my Acl recently. And I just got surgery a couple weeks ago. And my husband has got as in a way   Mandy Harvey  00:10:56  Oh,   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:56  So I I feel like my stress level is so heightened, and I feel like I have been so just   Mandy Harvey  00:11:02  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:05  so completely reactive with my children, and I realized when I was... I just like, downstairs stairs, and we live in you know... It's like three stories and Capitol Hill very narrow and tall. And my children I heard them on the third floor, screaming. And, like, immediately, I just felt like everything just ten up because, typically, if they're screaming, I'm like, okay.   Mandy Harvey  00:11:31  Yes.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:30  I'll be there. But now, but I'm like, oh my gosh. It's gonna take me forever to get the stairs right now. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen. And I started getting stressed out and angry and upset. And I... You know, I just imagine a wounded animal in the forest and just like   Mandy Harvey  00:11:43  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:45  being wounded and, like, just the sound of wrestling will like, really heighten their awareness of what's what's happening. Am I am I going to die right now? Because that's that's the feeling I was getting. But, yes, no. I I just but that just an understanding of from so experiencing has been so vital. For me, and I wanna get into how you're working that into the programs that you're providing for people, but I do wanted to I do wanna ask, like, if you are comfortable in telling your personal story because I know for for me, most of the... The my my podcast in the trauma survivor driver's podcast. And the majority of people, if not all of the people who come on really their they're gift of helping people from healing their own their own toe   Mandy Harvey  00:12:38  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:38  their own experiences and trauma that they have experienced. So   Mandy Harvey  00:12:41  Oh,   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:42  I was wondering if you were were comfortable and talking about your own experience.   Mandy Harvey  00:12:44  Yeah. Absolutely. Just similar with you, Semantic experiencing was a huge modality of healing for me that really got me to the other side. I feel like really kinda helped push me the on other side of the healing pendulum, if you will. But I always... I say that I was born into I was born to a single mother who was operating from her own trauma   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:12  Mhmm.   Mandy Harvey  00:13:15  and she had men come in and out of our life. And those men weren't the greatest, and were often very abusive. Kidney   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:24  Yeah.   Mandy Harvey  00:13:25  So from a very young age, I experience sexual abuse from these men and from the age of five, to the age of fourteen, and my relationship with my mother was one that she was not home. She's not around very often. She was single parent in most of the years and she was working multiple jobs. So I became I had to become very independent to just serve five, and she was not available physically. Most of the time, So I learned to just kinda take care of myself and live in this very un unsettling. Level. I'm loving if you will home. And from a very early age learning to detach from my body. Because so many things that happened to me, I just didn't wanna feel anything and just learned to survive. And what I learned, how I learned to survive was and very important because I have sure I survived it. I've gotten to the other side of it. But at the around the age of thirteen, she married An individual who I was a police office and was very abusive and manipulative.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:42  Mm-mm.   Mandy Harvey  00:14:43  And took the abuse to a whole new level. With me. And would use his power to abuse more and more and more. And eventually, I told someone in school, what was going on, I told them what was happening in the sexual abuse I was experiencing from this individual. And social workers got involved, You know, the whole process and started to unravel And I became Very nervous about talking to my mom about this because I had already talked to her once.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:26  Mm-mm   Mandy Harvey  00:15:25  And told her what had been happening why he'd been doing and she said, you know, all talk to him. I'll make sure he, you know, he stopped that.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:37  Yeah.   Mandy Harvey  00:15:37  And nothing changed. So when I talk to show that day after speaking to a account school and then telling me we will need to report this. In social worker will get involved and most likely, he'll be arrested and you know, all the things that happen as a result of that. I got real nervous. And I know well, can I please, you know, touch my mom before you make that call, I believe it was a Friday or or a Thursday was towards the end of a week? And my mom's pattern and I every day does she at home from work because we go in this walk. It was the only moment in our day that was semi my human. Where we could tap into some sort of connection. And so at the end of that walk, I shared with her, Hey. This is what happened at school today. I shared this with counselor. They told me blah blah blah blah blah. She turned me with rage in her eyes. And anger and said how could you do destroy our family   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:38  Oh my gosh.   Mandy Harvey  00:16:41  How could you do that chance? And it was in the moment. That was a pivotal moment in my life because I took on the beliefs that my intuition was wrong. That   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:54  Yeah. Question.   Mandy Harvey  00:16:56  I didn't know how to make good decisions for myself in that. And, you know, throughout my adult life, I gave away all dungeon making power over my life because of that moment. So it became a pivotal moment in my healing process, but what happened after that was a couple days later, That was reported. He was put into jail. He was released out on bond. There was restraining order. So we... My mom and I were essentially, you know, kind of navigating this world. I was send to the police I was picked up at school when day by a police officer and interrogated for hours on end. I think they were trying to break me or   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:43  No.   Mandy Harvey  00:17:45  if I was lying about what had... I had a experienced, Of course, I was not, and that was also another traumatic moment having to relive and talk through exactly what I'd happened to me to two men in this room without a social worker. Without any other support in the room it was very traumatic. After that occurred a couple days later, I came home from school and found suicide letter. From both him and my mother. And they were gone. No nowhere to be found. So I was... I moved in with some family members. And it was a a couple days later where they were found. They had taken their life. Shop themselves.   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:34  Oh my goodness.   Mandy Harvey  00:18:35  Yeah. And that became also huge moment of evidence for me about my decision making really wrong because it created such destruction. My entire your life changed in a moment. From No longer having a mother and, you know, in the at the in the early years, I wanted her even though she was or not, emotionally available even though she was not neglect, even though she was alarming and abused happened to me and putting me in these very unhealthy situations. I still wanted her. Choose my mom. And you know, that's the interesting dynamics when we're children that I attachment versus authenticity. We attach to our caregivers regardless because we need that need we need to feel like we belong some way And that was really hard. It was very hard that you can imagine. I start a therapy you started Em or Amd about Yep.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:37  In. Oh, wow.   Mandy Harvey  00:19:39  Right away to start to work on the guilt. Because I felt like, I was the one that pulled the trigger essentially, I took our lives.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:48  Well,   Mandy Harvey  00:19:49  So I spent years I took my high school years going through Ed, and about my sophomore year, I started to get really just done. I felt I didn't wanna talk about it anymore. I didn't... My body started to really a and hurt and all I could think about, which I just wanna see my mom again. And I attempted to take my life when I was fifteen years old.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:14  Mhmm   Mandy Harvey  00:20:13  I had a near death experience I took and swallowed a whole bottle of sleeping pills one day at school. Pass out. The only thing I remember is waking up to this beautiful, like, super warm super loving golden light, essentially. Like, the most powerful feeling you could ever imagine and time it by a thousand. And I can remember thinking, oh my gosh. I've made it. I'm gonna get to see my mom again. I just like, you waited   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:46  Oh my gosh.   Mandy Harvey  00:20:48  was because I had missed her so much. And I remember thinking, oh, gosh. Can't wait. To can't wait. When do I get to see her? And I felt hand I felt pressure on my chest, and I was being pushed back away. And the only thing I heard was it's not your time. And I welcome   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:13  Wow. That's powerful.   Mandy Harvey  00:21:15  it was so powerful. I woke up to the end of the day. Kids were washing out of school, and I was like, what happened.   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:25  Yeah   Mandy Harvey  00:21:26  I was just there. I was just there bike what's wrong with me? Why can I just do this? I made it home. I I gotta ride home, and I started to loosen. I started to have these really strange reactions to the sleep being told in my body, and I was shaking. I was just like, out of my mind and called nine eleven one, and they put me into Icu for a couple of days. And then admitted me to a mental institution for period of time so that I could undergo some intense treatment and was diagnosed with Ptsd.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:09  mm-mm   Mandy Harvey  00:22:10  Put on some medication. Some antidepressants, and that really became him intense treatment and therapy for a period of time, and then I continued my therapy outside of that till the end of high school. You know, I graduated high school, and I graduated treatment and I was like, right. Life here I come. But what I didn't realize was, you know, the layers and layers and layer and layers of that experience. I had gone through four years of therapy and thought, Okay. Like, I had to touched it all. Right? Like, I'm good. But as an adult, I started to become very upset. With things being perfect. I started to affect my outer world. Like a magazine. That you would see, you know, like, the cover of, like, home and garden or, you know, the cover or, you know, when you look at Crate barrel, and you see all of their sing so perfectly, like that essentially was me in my life, I I perfected my outward appearance, my outward home, I was you know, married with kids and everything was perfect, but on the inside, I felt like I was crumbling and trying to hide it. I kept pretending, but everything was fine, pretending that all good. But really underneath, I was starting to experience anxiety. Major stress. And the more I felt just heated within my body, the more I perfected and got obsessed. With making everything exactly as it should be on the howard. Were in the outward world. In my twenties, in my late twenties, I started to have flashback to my abuse as a child, and so I went through another round multiple years of intense therapy. In my late thirties you know, all these years, I've been in and out them unfair of therapy, mostly top therapy except for in my teenage years, I went to em r. But in my late thirties, all of a sudden in I started feeling and rage in my body and the way I... I have an example of what this slips like for me, and that was my daughter, my youngest. Essentially beautiful she she's my teacher in many ways.   Lorilee Binstock  00:24:40  Yes.   Mandy Harvey  00:24:42  She has this beautiful range of expressing emotion. She can express bliss and joy. And I'll go all the way to the other side with rage and anger. And she just expresses so freely and in the early year, she was about five around the time that I started having this anger started to build up in my body. It's very was very uncomfortable for me to watch her be so angry at times. And I would try to... I would try to like,   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:17  Yeah.   Mandy Harvey  00:25:14  do everything I could to make sure she wasn't angry. Like, how can I clean her? So I'd never have to hear her screaming because that literally sends like pain ting throughout my entire body.   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:27  Mhmm.   Mandy Harvey  00:25:28  And there was one moment where she was having this massive temper tantrum and I, like, screaming and yelling and shots with angry at me for... I'm sure the stupid is of things.   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:41  As children sometimes do.   Mandy Harvey  00:25:42  Yeah. Totally.   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:44  Yes.   Mandy Harvey  00:25:45  I'm sitting... I'm at the kitchen washing the dishes. With my back to her, and I can steal this fire rolling through my body from my feet to my head, and it just hot, and it's burning, and I'm like, oh my god. It she needs to shut up. I I I was, like, what I'm trying to breathe? I'm trying to, like, okay. You know, I can. I can't do anything. I just kinda like a letter her ride this out, but it was like, this this movement was happening in my body, and I cannot control it in it poof out through the top of my head. Explosion I turned around, and I had this glass in my hand that I was washing and I through and another feet, and I yelled to shot. Showed up. And I remember seeing her face was like, massive. Shock and fear. Like, oh my god. Mom never yelled at me. What to happen? She's crying. I'm crying, and I'm like, this isn't not who I am. Like, I don't want to be like, throwing glasses of my children. Like, what That's not me. That's not me. And I knew something was going on. I just could not understand or had the language I'd really understand it. So that's what really became the catalyst for going and seeking soma thematic experiencing therapy. And really, learning how to unpack the story and the energy and the emotions and all the parts of me that were so stuck in my body from all the things   Lorilee Binstock  00:27:23  Wow.   Mandy Harvey  00:27:22  experienced as a child, and I took about a couple you know, two and a half years. But then those two and a half years, I healed more than I did in the last twenty years. Of talk Therapy, and that's when I was like, oh gosh. Learning this about this connection in our body and how our health is impacted. How our relationships become impacted how we the refreshing of our cells and all the ways really impacts and impacts us at such a deep level. That really for me was a light bulb. Like, oh my gosh. People need to know him about that. I need to know about the the how trauma at such an early age. Can get stuck in our body. And you know, that stuck energy that stuck part of us, wants to be healed and tries to be healed. But you know, over time as we don't really live that it shows up in healthy shoes. I show that this relationship issues is shows up an and it just for me with all the things.   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:29  Wow. That's power. You know, I've   Mandy Harvey  00:28:32  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:33  I found myself in your shoes with my children I think it's hard if you if you've experienced trauma, your your your children are their your best teachers   Mandy Harvey  00:28:44  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:43  sometimes it's hard to see what they're trying to show you. Is really, really hard, and and I'm I'm realizing that, you know,   Mandy Harvey  00:28:54  Or.   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:52  I'm an internal family systems therapy. Which is it's it's amazing. And and, you know, it's it's it it is really hard to see my daughter because in a way, she's like, a reflection of the things that I really hated about myself. Right? Like, the, you know, the self loading of why, you know, my parents would not let me feel.   Mandy Harvey  00:29:17  Yes.   Lorilee Binstock  00:29:15  God forbid. I cried, gone from head, like, I showed motion and you know? And I'm trying to give my children the space for them to show their emotion there times when I look at my daughter, and I'm like, oh my god. That's me That is   Mandy Harvey  00:29:34  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:29:33  And this is not good. Because I have not   Mandy Harvey  00:29:36  Oh,   Lorilee Binstock  00:29:37  come to terms with that part of me yet.   Mandy Harvey  00:29:40  Yeah   Lorilee Binstock  00:29:40  But I'm I'm... It's the awareness.   Mandy Harvey  00:29:42  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:29:44  That I'm realizing. So the... And, you know, for me as well with the sad experiencing for me, I was like, oh my gosh. Because you, I think it was my third episode of my podcast were right. We're at ninety three.   Mandy Harvey  00:30:02  Alright.   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:02  But my third episode of of my podcast I talked about schematic   Mandy Harvey  00:30:06  That   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:05  experiencing because I had never heard about traumatic experiencing prior to my treatment. And just not understand   Mandy Harvey  00:30:14  Oh,   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:14  you know, understanding that that energies   Mandy Harvey  00:30:18  It is   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:17  trapped in your body is I feel like it's everything because it's like well, whoa   Mandy Harvey  00:30:22  yeah Or   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:21  then you can name it, and then you can understand it. And then you can find the root to it.   Mandy Harvey  00:30:26  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:27  And and now what you're saying is it's related to all these chronic health issues. And you're right. I didn't really. Even even post experience in free. I didn't even realize that I used to go to the host to the every single year as of a child.   Mandy Harvey  00:30:44  And yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:45  For for stomach issues. And they'd be like, oh, it's gastro arthritis.   Mandy Harvey  00:30:48  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:50  And after a while, like, wait a minute. There's this correlate, like, I I've been dealing with the this this trauma from childhood sexual abuse and And then all of a sudden, once I started actually getting help, I I haven't been to the hospital sense for   Mandy Harvey  00:31:10  That's great.   Lorilee Binstock  00:31:11  for my gastro that I was there for a for every single year, at least once a year.   Mandy Harvey  00:31:16  Yes.   Lorilee Binstock  00:31:19  It's crazy.   Mandy Harvey  00:31:20  That's really... It. Yeah. It's similar. Like, I a diagnosed with Ibs when I was a eighteen team, and I always had adjusted issues always And it makes sense now we hold a lot of emotion and you know, At least I do. I hold a lot of emotion in my gut. And what I started to really notice when I became what I shouldn't become more aware of the idea that we we can hold and press these emotions in our body and even these experiences can get stuck in our body. What I started really noticing is when I was still working in Corporate America. Is that I would have a stressful day And by the end of the day, my stomach would be so bloated. From   Lorilee Binstock  00:32:09  Mm-mm   Mandy Harvey  00:32:10  stress and emotion of, like, how... Like, again, that perfection archive, I wanted to be perfect at my job. And so I pushed myself and would take on more than I should never said no. And worked long hours and you know, tried to be this wonder woman who had the job and the career and kids and, you know, just was killing it all places, but I mate meant I held a lot of stress. And by the end of the day, it would look like I was five months pregnant. My stomach would be So so bloated with emotion. I'd have to lay down in my bathroom and just like, train slowly you know, breathe and start to you know, reconnect to my body again. And that was really the moment I was like, oh my gosh. I'm holding so much stress. In my body, but it not just the stress from the work. It's it's the stress of here. Of being chronically stressed, you know, from the moment. Have was a child.   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:16  So how do... How did you heal or or work?   Mandy Harvey  00:33:18  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:20  Under Ibm.   Mandy Harvey  00:33:21  Yeah. In years, it's been a it's spinach a journey age like, with healing, healing from my past, but it started with it started with a semantic experiencing really helping me understand the language of my nervous in the language. Like, I did... I spent a lot of time really assessing how my body felt in certain in different experiences and around different people so that I could just start to understand when I feel like I can't say no, my body feels this play when I feel relaxed, my body feels this way. So I became sort become this detective of, like, the language of my nervous, how it was interacting with my environment how was trying to cut my attention. And I started to work on healing those parts within me using if and using thematic experiencing.   Lorilee Binstock  00:34:23  Mhmm.   Mandy Harvey  00:34:25  Healing those parts that help the pain in the wounds. And working on integrating them back into my whole body. And then I started working with a functional practitioner. To care for the physical aspects of that, of that stress, which was my ibs. I worked on changing my diet, and my diet has changed over the years, and I think there is no one size that's all for anybody that's what I've learned through my own nutritional education as well in my own experiences. You know, when I first started then, I was eating paleo, but today, I don't eat paleo modified form of it. But I just took out just like... Just like with emotion, I would I would cope with my emotional swings in my stressful days with eating. I was an emotional eater, and I would eat the sugar and the carbs and the treats and all the scenes. And when I started working on that, it really started to shift the diet that I was able to maintain that was helpful in healing for my body. So I worked on that part that emotionally eater her her a lot. And at first, I just you know, when I would feel stressed and wanna eat, like, pink, waffles and syrup was the thing that I wanted to eat every day when I was stressed. So there would be moments where I'd wanna eat that, and I would let myself eat it, but I'd invite that part that emotional either part in with me. To join me. And I would, you know, just have this, like, internal dialogue with part and I listened to her about how stressed she was. And I learned that I was a teenager, and I lost my mom and went through all of that. That's really when that part showed up. That's really when food became a coping mechanism I became something that issues my myself.   Lorilee Binstock  00:36:29  Did it feel like it was a part that you could control a lot more? Than anything else.   Mandy Harvey  00:36:35  When I started... Yeah. I mean, I I feel like that part. Well, that purpose felt uncontrollable at first. You know, when I was going through the emotional swings, I felt like that part took over my life. You know, and I would just rav anything and everything. And once I felt better then it felt like, I had more clarity and I could live my life. But as I started to work on healing them, card. I felt like I had more control of the situation. So, you know, couple weeks or months into working with that part when I would get stressed I'd noticed the need or desire to twenty emotionally eat. And then I could place my hand on my heart, which is I always felt her in my chest.   Lorilee Binstock  00:37:21  Mhmm.   Mandy Harvey  00:37:22  I was... When I felt stressed and wanted to emotionally eat, my chest would feel tight. So I placed my hand there and I tell, hey, honey. I know it were really strong. Right now. Like, I get it. I know why you wanna emotionally heat. But I also know that doesn't make us feel any better. So let's go sit outside and watch the sunset or put our feet in the grass. And that part really liked   Lorilee Binstock  00:37:45  Wow.   Mandy Harvey  00:37:45  as an alternative to eating. So I switched out the more healthy way of coping with my stressful and stress and emotions. And the more that I did that, the more that I stuck with that, when I changed my diet, to accommodate the healing of my gut. I was able to stick with it even during time of stress because I had really done the work to to heal that part to build a relationship with that part. Major you.   Lorilee Binstock  00:38:18  Wow. That that's incredible. That's a great. I'd love internal family systems hair.   Mandy Harvey  00:38:24  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:38:23  In understanding your part. But that that is that is a very beautiful way to look. I'm, like seeing their thinking like yeah that that that that's that should be healed too. That should be taken care of you.   Mandy Harvey  00:38:35  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:38:35  Well, will you have a pro we have several programs. Right? For for people who want to heal themselves kind of I I'm kind of. I'm curious to know what are what is what comes with these programs? What is it that you do? From start to finish.   Mandy Harvey  00:38:57  Yeah. Absolutely. I have I have digital courses. I have healing sessions. I have three month long. It experiences. I even do hiking and healing. Journeys, but the online courses is I have a couple of them. There's is one about Burnout, and learning how to rewire your body and get your life back that you can start to enjoy it again. And I have another one that's called which is all about aligning to the success that you want to see in your life. These are online courses that they come with video training sessions for me. They come with workbook. They come with audio meditations. They come with Thematic experiencing practices. But these ones are more self obtained.   Lorilee Binstock  00:39:52  Mhmm.   Mandy Harvey  00:39:54  So that you can take your time going through them. And, you know, really anger into experiencing the content within them. The anchored and success program is thirty days if you were to do a little bit every day. So that's, like, thirty minutes a day where you're listening or watching a video. Or listening to an audio, there might be some activity where you start to assess. Your life in a variety of ways. You would then have practices, like, emotional nutrition recommendations, mindful types of things, thematic experiencing, types of things, ceiling trauma, you know, regulating emotions, nervous regulation. All of my courses have like kind of a mesh, if you will of all of those types topics.

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, April 12th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. Today's guest is Andrew Daniel, Author of "Awaken to Your True Self" and Director of the Center for Cinesomatic Development. -------------- Lorilee Binstock  00:00:50  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is a trauma survivor Thrivers Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside Chat, where you can be a part of conversation as my virtual audience. I am your host, Lorilee Binstock. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest questions by requesting hop on stage or sending a message in the chat box, I will try to get to you, but I do ask that everyone be respectful. Today's guest is Andrew Daniel, author of the bestselling book, awaken to your true self, the founder of Cinesomatics and director at the center for Cinesomatic Development. Daniel, thank you so much for joining me today. Andrew Daniel  00:01:48  Thank you for having me. Lorilee Binstock  00:01:50  Well, you know, I was really intrigued. I you know, I've heard of, you know, somatic experiencing, which actually I really just discovered that in twenty twenty when I went into residential treatment. But when I heard about you, I heard I I I learned this new thing, at least in my mind, synosomatic therapy. Could you actually tell me a little bit about that? Andrew Daniel  00:02:12  Yeah. It it is it is very cutting edge stuff. Basically, cinematics let's just start with the word. So it comes from two words, cinema and somatics. So cinema somatics. So the first part is Sinesh. So in this therapy, in this it's pretty much an entire transformational approach. We use video. And so we use video and movement, and then the somatic part, the body. So we use video and movement to watch the way people show up in their body. And then we play that video back of them moving in their body. And then myself or other people in the group will give feedback about all of the unconscious, the subconscious patterns, mythologies, archetypes that are symbolically coming through the body. And not only is it a feedback from the participants or myself, but they get to see it for themselves in their own body on the video replay. So it's a very potent feedback loop that helps people see all of the hidden traumas or stories or blocks and even shadow material that's holding them back in their life. Lorilee Binstock  00:03:36  That's really fascinating because, you know, we do these things. We we fiddle our hands when we we get nervous. We, you know, we even sweat. Andrew Daniel  00:03:43  Yes. Lorilee Binstock  00:03:46  We do so many different things based on the things we learn growing up that kind of make us feel safer, I guess, these coping mechanisms. And I I and I that that is that is really fascinating to me because I'm assuming most people don't know what, like, their trick ticks or whatever are. How did you actually discover this as a type of therapy? Andrew Daniel  00:04:15  So it's about twofold. One, I mean, on my journey of my own traumas and growing up and everything led me to actually a lot of alternative and holistic healing methods. We didn't have a lot of big medical insurance. We weren't into any of the pharmaceuticals, or my parents took me to, I think, a psychologist once But very gratefully, I ended up through my own self help, self improvement journey, came across all of these different methods. There was neuro linguistic programming. There was tapping EFT. There was acupuncture. There was hypnosis. There was all of these things that were actually pretty helpful for me. And I actually got certified in different immunotherapies and and different stuff. And for a while, it it worked very well, and it and exposed me to whole new world of well, a whole new world, really. Because because not only was it just therapy, everything in my life was changing, it was like, oh my gosh. It's not because I don't know the technique. It's because I got all this junk and stuff inside. I mean, that's getting in the way. Lorilee Binstock  00:05:32  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:05:32  And so that set me on a healing journey for for the past fifteen years. And, eventually, I reached a a Plato. I I was homeless twice, even after being published. My software company did very well, and then it just stopped. And I was wondering how and why that after all these successes and learning all of these spiritual and even practical truths and wisdoms, I was still stuck. There were still many things in my life that weren't working. And so I came across work by a a late mentor of mine who was pioneering some of this video and movement work. And so I learned a lot through him, and that really exposed me to this world of symbolic somatic, all this un not not invisible, but invisible to many of us, Lorilee Binstock  00:06:35  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:06:36  information about ourselves in our body. And then so I studied under him for a few years until he passed. And then I took everything that I learned and then started expanding upon it. So I took that movement and video process, and I added in the cinema aspects We use very high end cinema equipment to get a lot of data. And then through that practice, in my own practice, one of the things I discovered to solidify Sonosomatics as my own modality we're we're the discovery of archetypes in the body. And what I mean by this is when I would watch clients move, and I would say something like Alright. Okay. So you're struggling with making money in your life. Okay. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:24  I wanna know more. Andrew Daniel  00:07:25  Right? Is yeah. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:07:27  This is me. Andrew Daniel  00:07:27  So Yeah. So you're struggling with money in your life. Okay. Well, show me through the body your relationship with money. What is making money look look like to you? Not don't tell me about it. Show me show me in the body. Alright. What is spending money look like? Oh, what does having money look like? Oh, okay. And then what I started to find is that what people said or thought or had an image of in their mind didn't always match the way that their body felt. So it's all about the feeling, what the body feels like as it's moving. It's not a mental, logical analysis. We're dealing with symbolism. We're dealing with the realm of the unconscious. It's not logical and linear. It is symbolic, metaphorical, allegorical. And so I started to see, oh, this person, I say, show me making money. And it takes them two minutes to start moving. When you're standing in front of somebody on camera for two minutes, That that for many people is like an eternity. Lorilee Binstock  00:08:39  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:08:39  And, also, in our own life, If you scale that out, well, what does that mean about somebody? What does it mean about someone's relationship with making money? If it takes them two minutes to even start moving, where most people who are functional in it move immediately. They'll move it in in about one or two seconds. And so I started to notice that there were these correlations. And then I would watch some of these people, and I would say, alright, show me something like giving. And then they would do something where they they would take their hands and pull it into themselves. The the direction would be towards them, and I'm like, wait a minute. Giving giving objectively should go outwards. And so then I would say, alright. Well, what's your relationship with receiving and giving in your life? And they're like, oh, I struggle with this. And so I I started to very, very quickly notice the correlations between the way that somebody represented these archetypes in their body and the actual practical practical results they were getting in their life. And then as we would begin to explore it, we would start uncovering all of this trauma. We would start uncovering all of these limitations and and suppressed emotions. And then as we would move through those emotions and those stories, their movements would begin to shift, and then they would start embodying more functional archetypes And then, you know, weeks later, they would get a raise or they they would have a gift or things in their real life actually shifted from the stuff we were doing in their body. So this was, Lorilee Binstock  00:10:12  No. Andrew Daniel  00:10:21  you know, many years of discovery and learning, and not only working with other clients, but my own journey. I had to go through all of this process myself first before I could even see it in other people. And so that's a long story to a short answer, semi short as it could be. Lorilee Binstock  00:10:42  I I love it. I I think that's that's fascinating. You you develop this through your own observation and built upon that. How long does it take to to do this type of therapy, to observe someone, to analyze, their archetypes and and and really discover all of this. Andrew Daniel  00:11:05  I can sit with somebody and in seconds know more about them than closest people to them in their life. Yeah. It's it's incredibly fast. But the reason it's fast a is because this is this is my job. I I've I've been I've been doing this. Lorilee Binstock  00:11:22  No. Andrew Daniel  00:11:23  But b, is that it is that it bypasses the the mind. It bypasses the heady analysis. And so I skip. I skip all the body language I skip all of the conscious words that people are using, and I go below that. I go to the feeling underneath stuff. So you can imagine I'm sure you and everyone has has had this experience where they meet somebody And everything they're saying, it seems nice and friendly and okay, but you just get this feeling like you don't trust them. Lorilee Binstock  00:12:00  Mhmm. Right. Andrew Daniel  00:12:03  Well, in this work, I've actually figured out what those specific things are, why we get that hunch, why we get that gut feeling. And through the video and the movement, I can actually point it out and tell you why and show it to you on video. Lorilee Binstock  00:12:19  Wow. Yeah. I mean, as someone and and you did mention you've experienced trauma in your life, most people who have experienced trauma Andrew Daniel  00:12:28  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:12:28  our empaths and can and and can read people pretty well because they're used to reading the room to figure out if they're they're safe. But this is I mean, this is in incredible stuff. Andrew Daniel  00:12:42  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:12:44  And how long have have you been doing this cinematic. How long has this been you said it's been kind of in the works for about the last fifteen years. Andrew Daniel  00:12:54  So fifteen years of of my journey of Lorilee Binstock  00:12:56  Oh, your attorney. Yeah. Andrew Daniel  00:12:57  yeah. Of my journey. And so there's there's an aspect of that. Now my mentor, he kind of pioneered just as the the the technology has only been around for a couple decades I mean, like, two decades really to to even be able to record this stuff. So he initially pioneered it on, like, tapes Ashley, like, real tapes back in the day. And then so when I worked with him and he passed, I kind of picked up those reins And it took me to get from that point of that foundation to to me turning it into actual cinematics and the places I've taken it. It's been about five to seven years. Lorilee Binstock  00:13:46  That's great. I mean, I feel like, you know, the difference in what I'm learning because, you know, I I didn't even know about any about somatic experiencing. Which obviously we we we now know, and and most people who've dealt with trauma is that you know, we hold it in our body, Andrew Daniel  00:14:07  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:07  and like you were saying, you know, somatic means the body. And I feel like we need more modalities that really focus on healing what's underneath the things that you you can recognize because, you know, what we've been doing for so long has been masking all of the trauma, all of the symptoms. You know? And and and Andrew Daniel  00:14:32  Yeah. The symptoms. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:35  we now know it. That's not working. Andrew Daniel  00:14:37  Right. Lorilee Binstock  00:14:38  That's that's not working at all. So I think this this synerosomatic therapy is incredible work. So how do you have to be where are you located? Do people have to go to you? Is this something that can be done over video? Like, Zoom. I don't know if Zoom's you probably would have higher tech stuff than that if that were the case. But how are people able to experience this therapy? Andrew Daniel  00:15:07  Yeah. It's both. So we basically have two two grades of the therapy. The professional grade is stuff where we can do it online virtually, so we literally do use Zoom. And so I'll work with a client or we have a group workshop. We actually have a group workshop this weekend, and people will come in on the Zoom call. And then I will be facilitating, and then we'll have everybody move. They have privacy and space to move. And on my end, I use my technology to record everybody moving or the client, and then also as well certain technology to play it back over Zoom, and then give them feedback. And then the whole thing is being recorded as a replay, which has another layer of feedback to it. So that's that's what I do most often because it's so much easier for people to to hop on a Zoom call than it is to fly out. But I do have people I do have people fly out. There's things where we can only Lorilee Binstock  00:16:00  Right. Andrew Daniel  00:16:04  do in person. And so the second grade is the cinema grade where we actually have the tens and tens of thousands of dollars of Hollywood cinema grade equipment where we're able to capture in very high resolution at very high speeds a very particular system that we have, and that allows us to go into super high rates and super slow motions to see all of the stuff that we normally would miss just watching in real time. You can slow it down, play it back, because what happens in real time is that sometimes these things were were manipulating other people. We're we're hoodwinking. We're we're seducing. We're lying to ourselves and other people and sometimes not even knowing it. And so it's very off it's very easy to get pulled into someone's story. Right? Get pulled sucked into someone's manipulation, Lorilee Binstock  00:16:51  Right. Andrew Daniel  00:16:58  and no one know it. Well, with the video and the replay, you can distance yourself from that and say, oh my gosh. Look at that. Oh, you're doing this. Oh, oh, this was happening. And so Both of though that particular thing is helpful in person and online. But having the in person stuff we have a specific diagnostic that's called a a slack line. So we actually have people walk on a slack line. And we have various hands on techniques and stuff, as you know, with with trauma and a lot of people just don't get haven't had touch. And there's there's a lot of stuff in the body where appropriate, safe, touch, can, you know you know, activate stuff. I was just reading I was just watching a video of Lorilee Binstock  00:17:50  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:17:50  somebody talking about just babies sleeping in certain ways, the pressure their body parts have on the bed turns on certain circuits, you know, some nervous system stuff in the development of the baby. So there's so much stuff that the body does and holds, and the in person stuff allows us to do those things that we can't do virtually. But I have clients that I work with. I've been working with for two years, and it's ninety percent virtual. Oftentimes, they'll come in for a few days. They'll fly in, and we'll do that stuff, which is like a supercharged in a few day session. And then over the course of the next few weeks and months, we help integrate and and go further with that stuff. So it it works both virtually and in person at very high levels. Lorilee Binstock  00:18:44  That's great. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I I I think there's a lot. I mean, I know I I I do I I do internal family systems therapy, and I do this weekly with my therapist, and I do it over Zoom. But there are things that, you know, are really benefit doing it in person like you were saying, like, the bodywork. When when I was in trauma therapy for residential treatment, it was you were you were given body work each day, whether it be a massage, Andrew Daniel  00:19:19  Oh, excellent. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:19  And, yeah, it it they they I what is it when they move the Andrew Daniel  00:19:24  Lemphatic, Lorilee Binstock  00:19:25  yes. What is Andrew Daniel  00:19:26  or fat, myofascial, Lorilee Binstock  00:19:28  Yeah. They were so there was just a list of of their body work that they really wanted you to do Andrew Daniel  00:19:31  Yeah. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:36  along with the programming that they already had because it was just Andrew Daniel  00:19:39  Oh, wow. You're you're very lucky. That's very blessed. I mean, a lot of places don't know that. Lorilee Binstock  00:19:43  I I was I I am Yes. I am I'm very, very blessed because I feel that, you know you know, I this this place is Sears Tucson in Arizona. I I could talk about them forever because they they worked on some really cutting edge stuff there, like, revisioning, which I I I still don't hear people talking about. But there are also, I think, one of the only clinics back in twenty twenty that was doing ketamine treatments for Andrew Daniel  00:20:09  Oh, okay. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:10  so and I did know neural feedback. Andrew Daniel  00:20:14  Yep. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:15  And, obviously, I feel like, sino sino sino somatic therapy would be extremely helpful. In in that in that kind of environment in a in a residential treatment center where there are a lot of people who are there and who are staying there and who has who can do this. So that's something definitely I think you to think about. But, you know, in talking about this, you know, I I Like I mentioned, I did inter I do internal family system therapy. And I I've mentioned briefly or I think you you've heard my work with psychedelics. I I I've done Andrew Daniel  00:20:48  Yes. Lorilee Binstock  00:20:50  I mean, I've I really, really credit psychedelics. To a lot of my transformation. And you mentioned briefly Andrew Daniel  00:20:58  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:21:01  about usage shamanism and embodiment therapy that your organization's actually pioneering, and I'm intrigued. I was like, I need to know more about this. Like, you you're really on on the frontier of all this cutting edge stuff, so I need to learn more. Andrew Daniel  00:21:07  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's it this is so Cinematics is a very specific you know, let's just call it the the the method, the technique. It's using the video and the movement. Now there's other things I do with it as well, and so One of the things is doing dream work. Another another thing is doing symbolism work, and we use ancient imagery. Basically, use picture symbols as these archetypes. And so I basically have this three three door approach. We have the dream work, right, this unconscious symbolic realm. We have picture symbols, symbolic realm, and then we have the body, symbolic realm, unconscious. And so dealing with all three of these, what we're doing is not a heady mental academic analysis. What we're doing all of it is actually going into a it's almost like a meditative state. And in this sort of very still, quiet, connected place, we go into these symbols, and we're not just doing it Willie Nilly or we're not just doing it on the surface, we're really doing what's called chateau work. And maybe some people have heard this term, but it's really been, I don't wanna say, appropriated, but it's been very watered down. You know, real shadow work is going into the places of our psyche that we have spent decades of our life not ever wanting to go. It's going into the places of ourselves that we hate, that we despise, that we feel guilty about, that we judge, that we shun, that we literally wanna take pills or take a knife and cut it off and get it off of us and and completely change it or Lorilee Binstock  00:23:21  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:23:25  just, you know, disown it. And part of this work is looking at those things, and not only looking at them, but reintegrating Lorilee Binstock  00:23:31  Yeah. Andrew Daniel  00:23:34  them, letting go of the judgments, letting go of the suppression stopping the suppression. And then this, of course, encounters all of the trauma. And it it encounters the stories in our life that say, Okay. This thing is bad about me. We can't look at that or deal with that. And then saying, well, Maybe we've got that wrong all along. Maybe that was just something we did to protect ourselves and cope with something that was horrendous in the moment that we didn't know anything else to do about. Lorilee Binstock  00:24:06  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:24:08  And now as adults in a safe place, we can allow ourselves to go there and to heal that. And so we do this with the movement. We do it with the dreams. We do it with the symbolism work. And it is very akin to the the the psychedelic journey. Lorilee Binstock  00:24:31  Mhmm. Yeah. Andrew Daniel  00:24:32  But conscious. So one of the things with the entheogens and the psychedelics is is a twofold benefit, but also a limit. And that's the fact that it kinda shows you everything. It kind of forces you. Right? It takes you where it's gonna take you. Lorilee Binstock  00:24:47  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:24:50  And you can surrender or you can fight it. And and so for a lot of people, it's really beneficial because most people Lorilee Binstock  00:24:57  Right. Andrew Daniel  00:24:59  aren't willing to go to these places themselves. Lorilee Binstock  00:25:03  That's very true. Andrew Daniel  00:25:05  Yeah. Yes. So it's it's incredibly beneficial because of that. Now the the limitation of that is are two things. One, is that you're you're at choice by going in, but the choices throughout of it you know, like we said, it it more of takes you there. So it's less of a conscious will. Now you our response because you're the one that decided to do it and you're letting go and allowing it to do it. So you're you're still at choice, but it's a different kind of choice than showing up in your conscious awareness making those individual choices. The second thing is the integration. Is that on a lot of these experiences, you're in this very altered state. You're in and out of consciousness, maybe sometimes. Things are really symbolic. And depending on your guide, depending on the container, depending on the post integration, you can really benefit from it, or you could kind of go a little crazy you know, people have had, you know, psychedelic experiences where they can't ground it back into reality. You know, they're they're their ego is blown and, you know, all of this stuff. Lorilee Binstock  00:26:23  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:26:24  And so I I still you know, I think it's an amazing thing. However, in my work, we're doing that same level of exploring these symbolic, unconscious things that you would in psychedelics, but we're doing it loosely. We're doing it consciously. So now there's parks and downsides to this. The parks are you're integrating everything as you go, and you're getting the wisdom. The wisdom is not only in your subconscious, but now it's in your conscious. Right? You're consciously aware in real time of what everything is teaching you, what all of these symbols are teaching you. So the integration is very rapid in real time. It doesn't necessarily take, you know, weeks or months, you know, to journal and talk and figure it out. It's happening in real time. The second benefit with that is that you're at choice the entire way. And so you're the one that's empowered the entire time, and you're the one that's choosing to go there or not. Now this is also the downside. The downside is that it requires your choice, and a lot of people don't necessarily wanna look at this stuff. And so their ego defenses come up. And all of these strategies to hide out and run away, get engaged. And the second kind of downside ish, but just you know, I guess we could call it a downside, is that it's very confronting. Lorilee Binstock  00:28:00  Yes. Andrew Daniel  00:28:00  It's extremely confronting. So the specific way that I use cinematics in this lucid Shamanism work is advanced. It is it is not a beginner, a process. It's not for someone that just walks off off the street. You do have to have a very solid foundation in in many areas of your life. Because what happens is when we start doing this work, and I say, alright. Show me these archetypes. Start moving in your body. And I'm giving you feedback. What I'm doing is reflecting back to you. So this is the shaman part of it. Where a shaman, you could say, one definition of a shaman, is someone who walks the line walks between the two worlds of the symbolic and unconscious with the literal waking state. Right? The waking and sleep realms. The shaman is navigating through. And so what I'm doing in this work is the same thing, just not with any substances. So we're literally helping people integrate these these subconscious, symbolic stories, and data, and archetypes, and making them conscious. And so in that process, what I'm doing as the facilitator is not giving advice. I'm not analyzing it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong or good or bad or what they should do or shouldn't do or anything. All I'm doing is being a still pawn. A clean mirror and reflecting back the truth of what I see. And the video does that even better than me. Now this is this is incredibly healing, and it's an incredibly powerful process that changes people's lives. The thing with it, though, is that I'm just reflecting back what with what I see. And so there's an AA phrase that that's basically the truth will set you free. But first, it'll piss you off. Lorilee Binstock  00:30:03  Yep. Andrew Daniel  00:30:04  And this is often what we encounter, not with everybody, but when I'm when you're when you go to a a session, and they're saying your This behavior you're doing here is narcissistic. You're manipulating. You're seducing. You're completely out of relationship with your masculine or feminine. Oh, you are actually monitoring yourself for the past forty years when you thought you were just being nice. And it's not my opinion. They see the proof in the video of themselves doing it. And so it can be a very, very confronting process. And it's only for people that are ready for it. But the people that are ready to see that, their entire lives change. Everything changes. Their nervous system gets rewired. The the relationship shift. They add I have clients that add zeros to their income. All of these things happen because you you finally get to know the truth, and you can't get to where you wanna go if you don't know where you're at. And so this work helps with both. Lorilee Binstock  00:31:14  That is incredible because, you know, you know, I'm I'm absolutely it's like advocate for psychedelics, but I I do understand that psychedelics is not for everyone. It I mean, being okay with traveling to the darkest parts of your soul is it's it's heavy. It's heavy. Andrew Daniel  00:31:34  Yeah. This. Yeah. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:31:35  And and I and like you were saying, you know, in the case of psychedelics, you don't really have a choice of coming out of it until it's over. Andrew Daniel  00:31:47  Right. Lorilee Binstock  00:31:48  And and what you're what you're, you know, sharing with loosen loosen Shamanism. I feel that in this this body of therapy, is that there there is this option for those people who are, like, I am not touching psychedelics because that is just I I I want more control control than that, then there's this this option, Andrew Daniel  00:32:08  Right. Right. Lorilee Binstock  00:32:11  which I think is phenomenal. I I you know, do you ever have anyone who's like, I don't even wanna watch what I was doing. I have I have trouble just looking at myself in videos and and and actually trying to analyze. Is is there anyone who ever is just, like, they do it, and then they're just, like, I can't do this anymore. Andrew Daniel  00:32:32  Well, a lot of people don't like looking at their cells. And you wanna know the reason why. What I realized well, do you wanna know? Lorilee Binstock  00:32:43  I do wanna know. Yes. Andrew Daniel  00:32:44  Yes. Okay. So, you know, we we maybe ourselves. We've done this ourselves. I certainly didn't like seeing myself in photos or videos or anything. And I I know plenty of people that don't. Well, Lorilee Binstock  00:32:57  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:33:00  One of the biggest reasons why is because at some level, we are seeing our shadow. We look at ourselves. Well, what what we start doing judging? Well, that's a shadow aspect. You know, we're seeing all of these things we don't like about ourselves. That's why we don't wanna look at it. But then there's also a deeper level. Then there's also this understanding that we don't like ourselves. And then we're judging ourselves, and we don't wanna feel like we're judging ourselves. And so there's this whole stack of stuff that happens for most people instantaneously. And so they're just like, I I don't even I don't even wanna look. Lorilee Binstock  00:33:38  Yes. Andrew Daniel  00:33:38  Now the thing is those people are it's gonna be twofold. They're gonna have a really hard time with this work, but it'd also be the best thing they've ever done. Which is usually the case. Right? It's like the thing you're terrified of doing the most, Lorilee Binstock  00:33:50  Mhmm. Andrew Daniel  00:33:54  knowing that it's the safe, you know, not a reckless thing. But the thing you're avoiding the most as I say in my book, is probably the thing that's gonna move you forward the quickest. Lorilee Binstock  00:34:04  Yep. Andrew Daniel  00:34:05  And so in this work, yeah, People come in. They'll have a session. They're like, oh, yeah. I like embodiment. Oh, shadow work. This is fun. You know? And then I basically tell them their deepest darkest secrets that nobody else knows, and, you know, they they're like, you know, buy. So it does happen, but then I also have clients who do one session, and then they work with me for two years. You know, they keep renewing, not because it doesn't work, but because every single aspect of their life works better and better and better and better. And so after the there's an an initial period of kind of the shock and, like, confirm confrontation and, like, oh my god. And then what happens is you you realize that all we're doing is seeing ourselves in the world more accurately. It's not good and bad, right or wrong, should or shouldn't judgment of this or judgment of that. What we're doing is not telling better stories. It's not spinning things positive. It's just reporting things as is as they are. Not inflating it. But also not deflating it. And so what happens is that people that go through this process, they They fall in love with themselves. They can see themselves. They can see the shadow, but they can also see the light. And they're not at the effect of it anymore. They say, you know what? Yeah, that is a shadow effect aspect of me. I do have this narcissistic thing. I do have the selfishness when I do that. And that's okay. I'm I'm at peace with it because I know I'm at choice, and I'm not doing that anymore. I don't do like, I don't do those things anymore. But I still recognize that part of myself. And so going into these archetypes, we realized that it's not about being one perfect thing. It's about having full access to the entire range of humanity of all of this stuff. And we see this in the movements. People will move, and How they move in their bodies is how they move through their life. The foundational principle of this is how you do one thing is how you do everything. The way you move in your body, the way you show up on the call, the way you look at yourself on video is how you're doing that in your life. It's how you see yourself in in in your day to day life. It's how you move through the world. It's how you see everyone else in the world around you. It's your relationship to life. And through this process, we transformed those relationships. We we help people feel safe in their bodies again. We help people, you know, stop judging themselves and everything. We get people to remove the shackles and the walls and the barriers and open up to love. And become vulnerable, and that vulnerability leads to intimacy, let people in again, and let ourselves out into the world to be fully expressed. Without these plateaus, without these stories of limitations of I should or shouldn't I can't be or I'm not this or I'm not enough or I'm not lovable or there's something wrong with me. You know, we're not fixing. We're stopping. And that's one of the biggest difference too in this work is that it's not It's not personal development, which I also called persona development. We're not helping people build a better image. We're helping people stop everything. We're helping people subtract all of the stuff that isn't really who they are. And through that process, we get closer and closer to their true self. Whereas if you start fixing and adding, all of that layers on top and actually takes you further from your true self. Lorilee Binstock  00:38:06  Yeah. It you know, it's funny when you were talking about why we don't like to watch videos of ourselves. It's I actually had therapy yesterday. And, you know, I have I have an eight year old daughter. She's beautiful. She's smart. She's she's amazing. But, you know, we've been going at it a lot recently, and And you know, I realized in my therapy session because there was a part of me that I disliked about myself Andrew Daniel  00:38:38  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:38:38  and how I handle things, and she is was my reflection Andrew Daniel  00:38:39  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:38:44  of that. And so, you know, in in working through that, I had to get a better understanding of what did that part of me need when I was behaving the way that she was behaving when I was younger. And and that was and I think that in thinking about that, today, it's it's I just wanted to be heard, and that's all she wants to be. She just wants to be heard. And so, yes, I'm you know, it's it's it's Andrew Daniel  00:39:11  Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:39:12  not changing who you are. It's kinda I feel like it's it's having a better understanding of why and then just going kinda going from there. So and and and when you were talking about transformation, it's like people who are scared of those bad trips, those those those people who actually just dive headfirst into those really bad experiences, those bad trips, those darkest part the darkest parts of, you know, their souls. That I feel like that is when this the transformation really takes place. Because that those are the things that have been holding them back. Andrew Daniel  00:39:44  Yes. Joseph Campbell's Joseph Campbell's Yeah. He's a great quote. Lorilee Binstock  00:39:50  Is there go. Andrew Daniel  00:39:54  He's Joseph Campbell says, the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. And that's Lorilee Binstock  00:40:02  That couldn't be more true. Andrew Daniel  00:40:02  and yeah. And that's that's what we're talking about. Yep. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:06  Yeah. And and it's so hard because I know that, you know, there are people out there who Andrew Daniel  00:40:10  It is. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:11  because that that that are careful. And sometimes there are people who don't even know that they're like, I don't believe that there's any treasure there. You know, there's no personal develop you know, there's no growth there. You know? Because even five years ago, I'm like, this is who I am. This is, you know, this is this is this is it. There's no there's no such thing as post traumatic growth or anything like that. I just Andrew Daniel  00:40:18  Right. Yeah. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:35  didn't believe it. And, you know, five years later, I'm like, I don't even know who that was. So there is there is a way, and to transform. Andrew Daniel  00:40:45  There's always a way. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:40:46  Yes. Absolutely. Andrea, is there anything that you would like to add? Andrew Daniel  00:40:53  Oh, yeah. I got all sorts of stuff. What do you wanna know? Lorilee Binstock  00:40:56  Oh, tell me. What so what are you doing what are you working on now? What is what? What is it the big thing that you would like this audience to know? These are people who, you know, are trauma survivors. These are people who who feel that they have trauma that's lurking that they don't wanna face, what is it that you think they would need to know? Andrew Daniel  00:41:19  Oh, jeez. Well, it's a lot. I Oh, yeah. That's that's there's a a a lot in there. I think I think the biggest thing is And I talked about this in my book, making truth the most important thing. And how that actually practically looks is do you value comfort or do you value the truth? Do you value playing safe and hiding out, or do you value the truth? Do you value suppressing and avoiding, or do you value knowing the truth? And so if you can make the truth the most important thing in your life and use that as your North Star, not happiness because there's a lot of things for our growth that that makes our life incredible that really aren't themselves happy. They lead to it, but the initial thing isn't. Lorilee Binstock  00:42:29  Right. Andrew Daniel  00:42:34  And so if you're orienting your life to comfort and false safety. Now safety is very important, true safety, but many of us have a full sense of safety. You know, hiding out in our rooms and not going out into the world, isn't necessarily real safety. Because, guess what happens? Well, you don't have a community. You lose access to making money, and so you might not have a how you know, so there's all of these repercussions and consequences for things that are ego, would label and identify as good positive stuff. So if you can make the truth the most important thing, beyond these, beyond your stories, beyond any victim mentality stories, even if you were a actual victim to something horrific, it doesn't mean that you you have to keep telling the story for the next forty years of your life and be a prisoner to it. And so if you can align yourself to the truth, and make that more important than any of these things. You're going to have a value. You're going to stand for something greater than the trauma. You're gonna stand for something greater than the abuse. You're gonna stand for something greater than you're suffering. And if you can begin to live and make choices from that place, everything will begin to change. It may not necessarily be easy. In fact, it may be the hardest thing you've ever done. But I can promise it will be the most rewarding. Lorilee Binstock  00:44:22  Yes. It's it's being your authentic self. It's just chipping away at all the stories that we've told ourselves, like you were saying, all these ideas that we were told we needed to be successful, I guess. Andrew Daniel  00:44:38  Yeah. Be enough. Yeah. Lorilee Binstock  00:44:39  Yeah. Oh, well, you know, I I I absolutely loved having you on today, and I know that there's so much more that your organization is doing, and for anyone who would like to learn more right there is the scrolling fortune cookie to cinematic dot org, and you can learn more about Andrew and absent and you can also check out his his book, awaken to your true self. There's so much there. So, Daniel, thank you so much for joining me today. Andrew Daniel  00:45:14  Yeah. Thank you so much. I I do recommend if people are interested to check out my book, awaken to your true self. You have you do have to be willing to be confronted and stick with it, but tens of thousands of people have have benefited from it, and If any of this sounds interesting, that's a great, great first step. Lorilee Binstock  00:45:35  Amazing. That was Andrew Daniel, author of the bestselling book, awakening to your true self and the founder of cinematics and director at the center for cinematic development. For more information on Daniel and the center for cinematic development, like I said, you can just click on that scrolling fortune cookie. It will also be found in the show notes. April's issue of authentic insiders out, authentic insighter to be found at traumasurviberthriver dot com. That's traumasurviberthriver dot com. If you haven't already, please subscribe to my email list to get authentic insighter magazine in your inbox monthly. Again, thank you so much for joining me today. Join me live next week, April twenty nine or April nineteenth, excuse me. When I speak with Mandy Harvey, she will be discussing the connection between trauma and chronic illness and how to solve it for good. And you've been listening to a trauma survivor thriver's podcast on Fireside. I'm Lorilee Binstock. Again, thank you for being a part of the conversation. Take care.

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, March 22nd, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. ***Trigger Warning: This podcast contains discussions of sexual assault. Listen with care and if you are looking for resources, please visit, SASA28173.org ***  ​​Lorilee Binstock  00:02:16  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver’s Podcast.   Today's guest is Dayna Corcoran, founder of the Sisterhood Against Sexual Assault, a profit foundation supporting survivors, and families of sexual abuse. It was created to help victims of sexual violence by providing training learning and awareness of sexual assault. Dana, thank you so much. For joining me today. I really do appreciate it.   Dayna Corcoran  00:03:24  Yes. Thank you so much for having.   Lorilee Binstock  00:03:26  Of course. Well, first of all, could you share a little bit about your organization sister again, sexual assault?   Dayna Corcoran  00:03:34  Yeah. And we call South here in Black called, North Carolina, just the abbreviated version.   Lorilee Binstock  00:03:39  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:03:40  It it's a newly formed five zero one non nonprofit organization. That has a community centric mission to provide a safe healing space for victims and survivors to the sexual assault. We carry out program to protect people from sexual assault remote awareness, as a well, as to provide education in the support, and we Just started the first week of January.   Lorilee Binstock  00:04:03  Oh, wow. So this is very soon. Can you tell me what what made you guys want to start this organization?   Dayna Corcoran  00:04:12  Yes. Prior to January, nobody knew about Salsa none of us ever anticipated be becoming a group of women or members of this group. It was the... Probably the fifth of January. It was a Friday afternoon noon at four Pm. I was getting ready to leave town, and I got this phone call, and everybody that knows me know I never answered the phone.   Lorilee Binstock  00:04:35  Yeah   Dayna Corcoran  00:04:36  But it was it was like, one of my girlfriends here in Miller Community and West. And it wasn't it was odd. She was calling me as opposed texting. So I am at the phone as I was running out the door, and she had said, Dana, I'm in the hospital. I'm in, Charlotte. I don't know. I'm new to the area. I don't... You know, I don't know where to turn. I just need somebody to talk to and I need somebody to pray for me. And from that, she told me her story that had happened to her the week prior. So it was just... Over the New Year eve holiday in the Dominican Republic.   Lorilee Binstock  00:05:13  Do, I I don't know she feels comfortable with you sharing a little bit about our story.   Dayna Corcoran  00:05:17  Yeah.   Lorilee Binstock  00:05:19  Would you be able to do that?   Dayna Corcoran  00:05:19  Yeah. Absolutely. I'm sharing an information with arabic victims approval. She's also written out her story and she in the process of going through therapy and the she's... More comfortable. I know that she's gonna be her own advocate, and she will show be the platform that we speak on to talk to other victims and survivors of the sexual assault. So she's on vacation with a friend in the Dominican Republic. Justice her and her friend at an all inclusive resort, So we you know, we travel. We think those are safer players to go to.   Lorilee Binstock  00:05:53  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:05:55  She intends the nightly organized functions. You fifteen being night the fun night, and it's still broad daylight on the day of her herself. She's at the... At the restaurant the lounge bar area outside in I say that because in order her to piece her incident back together, she had remembered that it was daylight. The sun hasn't set yet, it was still early. She's enjoying a beverage,   Lorilee Binstock  00:06:18  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:06:24  and flash forward a few hours, she wakes up on the side of the road in the Dominican Republic. So on her story, video, Surveillance, and what she couldn't recall as time goes by, she was having a drink. So she is filmed being walked out of the all resort, put in a car And approximately four hours later, she was pushed from that moving car, landed on the sidewalk, which woke her up to trauma from the from falling out of the car kind of woke her up.   Lorilee Binstock  00:06:59  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:06:59  She realized she was laying in a pool of her own blood, the it was right back to front of the resort that she was taken from. The resort staff came out and took her to the local you know, makeshift hop, they're not, like, our hospitals that we go to, but it was more like gay, a makeshift, hospital urgent care in the Dominican Republic where she realized she had been drug kidnapped. Obviously, she was taken off the resort.   Lorilee Binstock  00:07:27  Mm-mm   Dayna Corcoran  00:07:29  And then really imaginative attacked with an object sexually attacked with an object. That created approximately a ten centimeter gas internally,   Lorilee Binstock  00:07:40  Oh   Dayna Corcoran  00:07:41  which led to the need for medical attention. So she's getting to the medical attention in a... In... Which is great. I mean, their job was to keep her alive. They did that, but it was in a non discreet room where the the... The... You the surgeons that were helping her were in t shirt because That were inside out. There was no glove, but there was no... It was stupid obvious that wasn't a professional hospital.   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:06  Oh, goodness.   Dayna Corcoran  00:08:10  She immediately received live transfusion because of the... She had lost so many, so much of her own blood that she immediately received the blood... And she was allergic to it right away. Immediately got a rash.   Lorilee Binstock  00:08:22  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:08:23  Something's wrong with is the the way it, you know, worked with her body or something was wrong with the blood to begin with, but she needed it. They su her her. They gave her the blood. They they... You know, they antibiotics the everything that she needed. But as she was going along, they kept saying, well, if you want this done, you have to pay a thousand dollars you want this and I need to pay a thousand dollars? And it they had... The... The the financial end of it was... This is why I'm saying all of this is because the only time they had brought an interpreter that she could understand what was happening to her. It was along with the police department there. It was to assigned to her that if she didn't pay this bill in debit or cash or Venmo or, you know, money in hand,   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:09  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:09:09  she would be taken directly from the hospital to the police department and held, Meaning they wouldn't let her leave unless she had paid this money. So as an aftermath, you think, okay, The assault led to the need for medical attention. So this orchestrated event from the bartender at the of the resort, who she... Who who's was the only person that was near her drink ties her. Would have put something in her drink, led to somebody walking her out, led to the sexual assault   Lorilee Binstock  00:09:41  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:09:41  that led the need for this massive medical attention. And she had a horrific deal. While she was at this medical facility. She she's screaming She's gonna a place that nobody speaks English and and the physician just kept telling her. Don't scream are women here and don't do that. Don't don't act, like that don't do that. And she said, I just wanna go, I wanna go home and they said you need to call your family   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:04  Oh my gosh.   Dayna Corcoran  00:10:08  and tell them where all your you know, life documents are where your will is, where you because you are not going to survive this. So they gave her a phone, They let her call her teenage daughter from a different country,   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:20  Oh my goodness.   Dayna Corcoran  00:10:21  which involved pin. You know, oh my mom. Her. She's in this... And and and then everybody started sending money. To pay for the medical bill it doesn't get her physically out of the country. So she's she told them. I wanna leave. I'm leaving   Lorilee Binstock  00:10:34  Wow.   Dayna Corcoran  00:10:37  You're going into kidney failure. If you leave, you will not make the the flight home. She leaves. She get. Like she paid the big thousand dollars bill. She, you know, borrowed from her son was college fine, She brought from her friend. She brought she exhausted her retirement. And and all the way that she had access. You she's a single mother of multiple children. She did it, but she could to survive. To get out of that country who obviously set her up to this. So she on that she could get on a plane on the way home with Charlotte. She have got elephant titus ever her leg in her face. She was going into kidney failure. She arrived at the Charlotte Hospital, And that evening had a minor heart attack in her sleep due to the strap. And when they did the exam on her the doctor starts pulling out this god. God. God. They had packed term of something to stopped of bleeding, but you could get attention a bacteria infection.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:39  Oh,   Dayna Corcoran  00:11:40  The doctor hearing said they did not intend for you to survive that.   Lorilee Binstock  00:11:44  Wow.   Dayna Corcoran  00:11:45  While she was there, she contacted the police department. She tried to file a complaint. She complained to the the resort it didn't go anywhere In until the the was getting on the claim, the you have the Dominican Republic police contacted her and the said. Your your report on file that the right department needs to be filed with the sexual assault department, and you have to do that in person. And course, she said, not a chance I'm getting on the plane that I'm going home.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:14  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:12:15  So this is... She she called me that Friday and just said I need prayers and she started crying. And you... This woman was new to our neighborhood.   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:21  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:12:24  She relocated her family in her job. She I had met her and passion at a neighborhood the phone party. We and she moved into the ladies house and we were really good friends like, it was a very superficial relationship because it was very new and because it'd be pivot of the different ages where we're doing a different behalf, and she didn't know that I have a history with that I'm a federal agent, and I work for home security which is separate, obviously, from Nasa, but that I have a history of the devastating sex time. So like, she as got led her to call me and act in asked just for   Lorilee Binstock  00:12:59  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:13:04  support and gotten support and prayers. Meanwhile, being the picture that I am, that information came in, and I thought, okay. Not the hospital she saved now that's she's in Char, what can we do now to help her? So other than the Funko group, we actually did the the zombies that we did mom flash over How we and that how I had met her the few weeks before Halloween and I called all this the mom that I said, and the... Again, it is made up of people that we see at functions and   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:30  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:13:41  not everyday life and we met the group, and we said, we are going to work together to raise the funds to at least pay back you know, what happened to her, she shouldn't have to pay for   Lorilee Binstock  00:13:53  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:13:55  sexual assault or the the aftermath. Herself. I mean, it was her that was sexually assaulted It was... It... You know, that should be constantly forever we living being victim and victim.   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:01  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:14:08  Having to dig her out of holders what we knew at a community we could do to help her. So from that, within the next three days after South was born the district against sexual assault. And it started off of the group of fifteen of and now there are almost four hundred of us on the private facebook page, which anybody is welcome to   Lorilee Binstock  00:14:28  Oh wow.   Dayna Corcoran  00:14:32  within the first seven days, our community and our local female owned vendor and is very specifically female owned because that's the page that we had started with was just women just so we didn't share her information out too far. But the neighborhood vendors and the women at our local salon. We see those fabulous times distal lane, even our self handing lady no at because she donated her time and her finding, you know, the business and we we raised over ten thousand dollar in seven days.   Lorilee Binstock  00:15:11  Oh.   Dayna Corcoran  00:15:12  Are we're both the Fas women in West, North Carolina, the small town. We all moved to. We are local twins south, restaurant donated their time and they they donated large check, and we did a basket raffle, and we made sure our local vendor that five made our shirts within two days. It was crazy and insane, amazing how quickly it came together all the same pod. And then later on, when we discuss sexual assault, and some of the reasons why not reported, we can talk about how these these women and the majority of them had never met her. They came out to function after function after function, volunteered of their time, their money, everything that they could and they still had never better up until two weeks ago, when I had a a fast gathering at the house, and we're having this another fundraiser. This car game center is a and I I get up, and I I I think everybody's are coming, and I sent our a excellent halt survivor that we treated in santa for a year. And half the members didn't even know that.   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:25  Oh goodness.   Dayna Corcoran  00:16:25  So she she thanked everyone, and it was like... It it's amazing at this age and and our stage in our life, but there's so many people that are supportive to other women or even any anybody that's a a victim of sex little felt that they don't even know. You know, I can donate eat money on Facebook. I can say, you know, here's your fifty dollars per your fundraiser, I think it great. But these women were... These are still donating their personal time, Just, because they want to help her in the situation she's been in which I agreed that super crazy the the story that she tells   Lorilee Binstock  00:16:55  Mhmm Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:17:02  the story that happened to her from start to, is a forty eight hour episode. It is something that she is fifty six. You know, she's not eighteen on on spring break. She wasn't somebody that is not educated that they're not that's the loose that out to party and, you know, go to these places and not be aware of your surroundings. It can happen to anyone at any time in any situation.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:25  Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, that just listening to the story, it just... It it breaks my heart.   Dayna Corcoran  00:17:33  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:34  But it's so inspiring how this community of women really came together for this person. Many of them didn't even know.   Dayna Corcoran  00:17:41  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:42  Wow. I mean, I... Oh, gosh. That's just gives because me chills how beautiful that is because I feel like, you know, we need more women supporting women, and   Dayna Corcoran  00:17:49  I.   Lorilee Binstock  00:17:51  I just... Wow. I I can't I I I know that your your deep... For your organization, I know you're talking about awareness and prevention and training, but it seems like something internationally that happened there's there there other things that we need to also worry about, because she couldn't even file a complaint or she did, and it was with the... And then   Dayna Corcoran  00:18:13  Right.   Lorilee Binstock  00:18:15  do you have any sense of of what we can tell people who are traveling overseas, especially to to be aware of certain situations and potential stories just like Dana.   Dayna Corcoran  00:18:31  Mhmm. So I will say that from this... And in even from our very first fundraiser that you know... And in there's fertility, that may have reduce context assault, but there are so many people that have lived through some typing in of event. An incident that is similar. You know I mean, this one is is big, but that were similar They I had come up to us and I wanted the Dominican public. There's another in the small community that we're in that they had seen somebody put something in their drink. And they have reported it. And and... And the...   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:05  Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:19:09  It goes back to everyone goes back to the bartender center, it goes back to the and go back to the hotel it goes back to the law that not being enforced on these and the residential, you know, these these all included places that we pay to go to. They're not being held accountable. So at least what we can do here is put out a awareness and put out travel awareness. Don't go to... And that that's what we're in the stages of doing now. The Sas happened so quickly at the beginning and we were so focused on fixing and helping being in   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:31  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:19:39  giving our survivor what she needed. Finance she needed financial help. She needed Thomas Therapy. We have a few therapist in our Community alone that offered their services for free.   Lorilee Binstock  00:19:46  Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:19:51  She was... One of our therapist here, please term with the top trauma therapist in the area she immediately got in, even though there was a second a month wait. She started her therapy right away, which I know was helpful for her? And and through that, the therapist said you need to write down your story. And when you feel comfortable, you need to take it to the news and when you feel more comfortable, you need to take it to the Dominican Republican and you feel more comfortable. You need to take it to Do and rally for the right to survivors for sexual assault, and that's what our long term goals are, including therapy intensive weekend camp for survivor and their family members. Because are the type of things this fast I would like to fund, like, she had the grown children. They may not wanna go to therapy every week to talk about how or they can't because they're not local. So we would like to fund... Let's go to this family camp for three days. With a set of platform with something we can build from and help survive this. We're she's going to I'm going through it every day, and I wasn't paired. It didn't happen to me.   Lorilee Binstock  00:20:58  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:21:00  We... You know... And that's another thing with awareness. We... The first thing we did was, okay, we're gonna make these baskets while we're making these back to rattle. What can we do to make sure this doesn't happen to anybody else we went online. We purchased the cup covers, which we have and we give out to people, it's kind of like a sticker, but it doesn't ruin your glass. You poke your straw through it, But in her situation that wouldn't have helped because we believed that the bartender was in on her kidnapped, which is how you're doing research online and talking to other long officers that is how they coordinate their organized crime there It it goes all the way back to the bartender centers so that nobody nobody. I mean, who do you think your pains... You know, you're you're getting your drink from a a bar tender at a reputable plane. You don't think things like that. We don't think things like what.   Lorilee Binstock  00:21:51  No. Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:21:53  So we research the these drink kits where we can test your drink. It's kind of like a Covid test. You gotta take your drink out, put it in there. We researched the... There was two college kids from North Carolina actually that started the nail polish that if you dumped your nail polish in the drink, and it change colors if then at something in it, we couldn't find any more information on that. Maybe it's not going on anymore. There has to be it an easier way I mean, we shouldn't have to protect ourselves from our own dreams, but they're happy will be away what we can do that.   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:25  Oh, yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:22:29  So our short term goals were to help our survivor, our long term goal to therapy, and we have I asked her. Actually, you know, when she came back and we had started with Casa, we set up a meal train, which was immediately packed for two months. So people came and it left food at her door we started to go find me. We did the fundraiser, but I didn't   Lorilee Binstock  00:22:46  One   Dayna Corcoran  00:22:53  go over to our house. I didn't sit down with her because I knew other people were doing that. I knew she had to go through these steps on her own. I didn't wanna interview her. I didn't want to, you know, crack the case and I didn't want to do that to her because that's not what she needed, then I waited a we And then I taken over a package for her with pajamas and and things that were donated from the neighborhood.   Lorilee Binstock  00:23:08  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:23:15  And through my conversation with her, I just I noticed her, like, lean down and, like, picket or toes and how like what are you doing? And she why I guess it I won't be getting a white pe. Ever again. And I noticed that even a week later, her pe was stained with her own blood.   Lorilee Binstock  00:23:34  Oh, my goodness.   Dayna Corcoran  00:23:34  It she had been drug you know, she's been pushed out of the car, You know, the thick gel, it is scraped in the blood that in there so much   Lorilee Binstock  00:23:41  Yep.   Dayna Corcoran  00:23:44  that it... And I I was like, oh, my gosh. It was an awakening for me to watch this happen to her. So some that, we asked her what can we do as a group to help other victims and survivors of sexual assault when that happens to them? What did you need? In that hospital, which she everything she had gotten sick, vomit in her own bed, and they said, just cover it up. And roll over. And so she had been throwing up from this medication and then and she had essentially lay in her own   Lorilee Binstock  00:24:13  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:24:17  vomit and So that's not hopefully that doesn't happen in Us hospital here. But what can we do here for victims and sexual assault when they leave? The... Or when they're at the hospital getting there and. And are one of our founders, Jennifer she reached out to the Emergency room in Bird. Charlotte and our local emergency room here off at Providence Road along with the information that our survivor Angie Gave us. She said, you know, I could have really used a views ago. I could have you really need math loss. I could have used   Lorilee Binstock  00:24:48  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:24:52  close, you know, you're... She's left in the bloody dress that she was playing in for three days. But here in the Us, they would leave in you know, like, the hospital gown   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:02  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:25:03  Wasn't bit more than sitting out of a stop or having to get in the car with your mom or your dad in a hospital little gown. When you have to go to the hop, it will be... When you have to go to the Cvs to get your medicine or or whatever needs to be done we made a list of things that people needed when they believed the post examination and evidence collection without feeling victim, and we had these kids donated from every one of the neighborhood, you know, the kitchen travel went like, the shampoo, and the body wash. We went to five and below. We bought pants and underwear and face cloth. Like, she, I wish I could just have wiped the blood off my face because people were staring at me   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:33  Mhmm. Yes. Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:25:47  ties. Know just...   Lorilee Binstock  00:25:49  Basics.   Dayna Corcoran  00:25:50  I don't that you need basic items. We bought back, and not I'm just script bag, and we packed them and each bag for us cost of approximately twenty dollars to make, which is great. But which is which is reasonable for everything that was in it. But when we went to the hot formation, we have we needed of this. You know, we there's a few programs around here that do them, they donate both certain items, but there's nothing we can give them as a bag. Which is where the emergency room care package program came from through. It... But there three hundred sexual assault kits that were done in the emergency room in Charlotte area in one year. So times that by twenty dollars, has a lot coming from a brand new non profit foundation. But we... Well once we heard that we're, alright, well, we're gonna have to front the money for this because we wanna make sure that everyone that goes into that hospital comes out or something. So we're doing the process of making those And I'm sorry, you said awareness with the international week. So she's gotten to a point where we're posting travel advisor. Where our entire group is posting information on, you know, like, a travel heads up, if you will, Like, And people like my girlfriend be my girlfriend texted out me the other day and said, hey, my my daughter got a lot of friends on spring break going Dominican Republic. What was the name of that resort again? And these are people that are vulnerable.   Lorilee Binstock  00:27:20  Yeah. I kinda wanna know too.   Dayna Corcoran  00:27:22  Yeah. I again I and I don't know how that I I'm good I can... I send it to you. I can attach it. I know it was in the Dominican Republic in Put, and it was a chips resort, but is happening   Lorilee Binstock  00:27:32  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:27:34  at all their rewards. If something similar as happening? Mean when you have math, people going to vacation, you know, there's there's even cruise lines there's things that that everybody's detection me because they're listening I So there's it's bad thing happen everywhere. But with something it that this... Normal thing, like this that is issues this and and this going back to why we went one of our long term goal is to do early education to both male and females, but in the schools, do early education. It's obvious it's this sexual, So I was gonna traumatized her and her family forever. But   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:13  Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:28:14  one sec incident the sexual can do the exact same one at a party or one college party where somebody, you know, is passed out and the guy thinks out that she said, yeah. Earlier and now she passed out what they're gonna happen. They have to realize that, you know, their fun time hook at at this party that they saw   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:26  Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:28:33  she was contextual to will lead to a lifetime of unresolved, trauma, if not, disgust or if not prevented. So that's... And and obviously, that's a long term goal, we're we're eight weeks into them. And we've already started the foundation we have we're we have insurance and we have bank account and we have all these things, and this is amazing. What what people we have done?   Lorilee Binstock  00:28:58  That is amazing. I mean, it's amazing. You're doing so much and you're here. Talking about it and spreading awareness, and and I think that's wonderful. Do you think that there's anything that we should be... Like, do you think they were targeting? You   Dayna Corcoran  00:29:16  So so maybe on the Internet research and of the Dominican republic or Mexico or anywhere where you travel specifically to this type of crime. They're targeting older men and women and in statistically, for the international crimes the men because she felt comfortable reaching out to her friend group. I don't know that if it happened to my husband or somebody that in the exact same situation, but of a male in her situation would even admit that doesn't happened to them. So they're hoping that   Lorilee Binstock  00:29:46  Mhmm. Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:29:51  you know, they... She... Her fight or flight was... I wanna record it and I wanna get home to my children. So she left knowing that that was her decision. And then we have to go back and find it. I would think in a similar situation, a male victim would be less you know, receptive to reaching out. And and, again, I pulled the statistics of men versus female victims and it in one of the and reason people don't report it is sadly, it's a common phenomenon. It's the victim blaming. And when she   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:26  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:30:28  told me this story. I mean, I've literally typed it up as she was saying it, and I sent it to our our zombie group, and I said... I said, this is not a joke. This is not... I the first thing I had to say was this is for real because it sounds like it was written by, you know, James Patterson, and this is gonna be the movie. And   Lorilee Binstock  00:30:45  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:30:47  because of every stage that she went through, it just got more horrific. So so biggest done the research on the Internet was... You know, they they they knew that she had come with a companion, but they weren't they were friends. They weren't together. They were in separate room. She... He he went to bed early every night, and she stayed out there. They they've found her. They watched her. They waited a few days. And they knew him. They know they come there for seven days five days, whatever the minimum night is, and they wait until it's the end. And then the all happens. And they... And just the people that have access to money. You know, my... Eighteen year old goes this spring Right, she might have my credit card on her phone, but she doesn't have a way to get eight thousand one dollars in cash.   Lorilee Binstock  00:31:22  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:31:32  So they all people that   Lorilee Binstock  00:31:32  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:31:34  look like they have money. Older women that he'll had access to money. And I you know, I'm in my forties, but I couldn't imagine that fifty six then happening. Or any   Lorilee Binstock  00:31:46  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:31:47  level of sexual assault happening. But you... You know, you know, you you go in college and your mom horns you, You know, don't look look around before you get out the gas station. Then do that at fifty six, Fifty seven, forty seven and what are the aging? Well, you're constantly not looking over your shoulder because... I'm not in high demand. You know? Don't happy What in that one, that wasn't the case The kid wasn't. I want to sexually you saw you The case was   Lorilee Binstock  00:31:59  Right. You're right. Yeah   Dayna Corcoran  00:32:11  this sexual assault is gonna happen because you're gonna pay the money.   Lorilee Binstock  00:32:15  That's horrible.   Dayna Corcoran  00:32:15  And that's how she... That's what she feels happens. The the the way that the bills were given to her, individually. It was like people were getting paid for different things. It was it she's lived. She lived through the worst situation that anybody and in a different country where you're... And you're told you're not gonna survive it. And So when you come back and you tell this crazy story, who's gonna believe you. And that's a common reason why people don't report sexual assault, and then victim blaming. And she been said when I talk to her, I'm not blaming myself for what I wore. I'm not blaming myself because you know, I keep myself together. I'm not... And that's great. And and I'm glad that you can do that because   Lorilee Binstock  00:32:49  Mhmm. Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:33:01  it it was horrific and nobody you know, nobody asked to be sexually filtered, and we have to remind our children our our girls are void that that at any point in a new situation, regardless what we're happening leading up to it, when but you don't want something to happen. It shouldn't happen.   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:18  Right. Right. And and, you know, many of us go out on our own   Dayna Corcoran  00:33:22  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:22  and and that's scary that we have to really be on the lookout for... I mean, even even here our states side,   Dayna Corcoran  00:33:28  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:29  you know, anything could happen Bartender could easily put something in our drink. Is there's is there anything that we should be aware of   Dayna Corcoran  00:33:32  Mhmm.   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:36  as far as that goes when we're going out on our own say,   Dayna Corcoran  00:33:39  Well, yeah. Going out on your own yet,   Lorilee Binstock  00:33:41  Mhmm   Dayna Corcoran  00:33:41  I don't go out on your own. But, you know, the... That came up too when we were discussing it one of our members I went to more of the the Charlotte Bar we're like something with all and immediately when she realized because you know what you can drink and what you can't drink in chronic. And when you immediately she realized something didn't feel right. She called somebody and they go man. You're slur like, something's wrong with using really out of it. And she said I think something happened to me, and they came and picked her up. So just be aware. And, you know, I saw one of those commercials on The other day, and it was what... You know, you you do a hand signal no nobody knows those? Do you do... What should we do with that? Maybe we should come come up with a word or come up with a names. And if you go to the bartender, and you say, you know, you can say, I think I've been drugs. They'll take care of you. But if you're not comfortable in saying that or somebody's following you or stalking you assaulting you verbally assaulting you are being a crowd of maybe there's something you we can come up with that they can say to the to a Bartender or bar owner or a receptionist is that that will get the attention that they need. So maybe that's something we can come up with, always we having it out always having your phone location on now that we have those. You know, we back in my bar days, we didn't have those   Lorilee Binstock  00:34:57  Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:35:02  But it's... And so I'm just looking over this staff how to make sure we retire. Why do why are people not reporting their users because they're are afraid of not being believed,   Lorilee Binstock  00:35:10  Yeah.   Dayna Corcoran  00:35:13  nine times out of ten is a family member or somebody, you know, you somebody that has access to you, The majority of sexual assault are not reported only, three hundred ten out of every thousand sexual assault are reported to police. Meaning two out of three go reported, it's just... We need to make sure that our youth are middle aged our older every stage of your life. You know who to contact.   Lorilee Binstock  00:35:36  Everyone.   Dayna Corcoran  00:35:39  We have a very good North Carolina organized company called Rain rave says. National network or the national network   Lorilee Binstock  00:35:46  Mhmm.   Dayna Corcoran  00:35:49  that how a hotline line I'm... I've sent you everything we can attach it or whatever you needed.   Lorilee Binstock  00:35:53  Yep. I can all I can absolutely put that in the show notes. Definitely.   Dayna Corcoran  00:35:56  Okay. Obviously, if you're in the immediate danger called nine eleven one, tell them where you're at. Let them know what's happening. I would rather my daughter or my south call every time I thought something was happening, than not... We and atlanta are non in law enforcement. We are just a profit organization.   Lorilee Binstock  00:36:08  Right.   Dayna Corcoran  00:36:13  Maybe like, a middle, a conduit that's a happy face where you can come to me, and then I anything I think that happened. What should I do? We have all the resources and and pant you need that we can send to you or... We've had people in the neighborhood, say my daughter was raped many many years ago, I just kinda needed it. I could... I kinda need this. You know? I I need I need a home for my sadness, and that's what we're for. We... Just... We have volunteers that can come meet with you. We we don't have out legal advice. We don't we don't do anything like that. We're just the middle man that that can help you feel better about reporting your situation, and we can help with fundraising any type of support that I needed?        

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, March 15th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat. ***Trigger Warning: This podcast contains discussions of suicidal ideation and the use of psychedelics to heal postpartum psychosis. We are not doctors in the medical field and are only speaking in the nature of our own experiences. If you are experiencing postpartum depression or psychosis, please reach out to your physician. If you would like to support or donate to the movement for psychedelic advocacy, check out the psychedelic medicine coalition ***  Today’s guest is Melissa Lavasani, Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Washington, DC-based Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, the first and only member association focusing on advocating for psychedelics at the Federal, State, and local levels of government. Prior to founding Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, Melissa was Chairwoman of Decriminalize Nature DC and proposer of Washington DC’s successful 2020 ballot measure Initiative 81: the Entheogenic Plant and Fungus Policy Act. Inspired by her own experience of using psychedelics to heal her severe postpartum depression, Melissa led the Decriminalize Nature DC campaign to the largest ballot initiative victory in the history of our nation’s capital.     Lorilee Binstock  00:00:32  Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver’s Podcast.. Thank you so much for joining me live On Fire side chat, where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I'm your host, Lorilee Binstock. Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guess questions by requesting to hop on stage. You're sending a message in the chat box. I will try to get to you, but I do ask that everybody be respectful. Today's guest is Melissa Lavasani, founder and chief executive officer of Washington Dc based psychedelic Medicine coalition. The first and only member association focusing on advocating for psychedelic psychedelics at the federal state and local levels of government. Prior to founding psychedelic medicine coalition Melissa was chair women of nature Dc and composer of Washington Dc successful twenty twenty ballot measure initiative eighty one then plant and fungus policy act, inspired by your own experience of using psychedelics to heal her severe post depression, Melissa led the criminal nature Dc campaign to the largest vaglio initiative victory in the history of our nation's capitals. Melissa, thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. You know, this is the first time I've actually ever had someone in my studio, which Now, you know, is a closet. I feel so on her. You you should be. I would not let a lot of people into my closet, but I do consider you a friend I met you through the whole movement, the psychedelic movement. And, actually, you have some news to share today.  Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. we are launching a pack a political action committee. It's called Psychedelic medicine talk, and is a way to engage with everyday noncitizens on this issue. You know, the coalition is really focused on specifically the ecosystem and bringing the industry that is coming out of that ecosystem to the capitol hill and getting them to advocate for changes in laws. But we found that it was it's really important to engage American people on this issue. There's regularly their stories in the media talking about and shaping up medicine, but, you know, getting people are interested in this issue and getting them involved in the political process. To put leaders in place that will, you know, get behind this issue and congress and then and in state legislatures, is really important. That's how, you know, elections is one way to exercise our voice in this country, and that is how we can really create change as if the current leadership is not supporting Psychedelic medicine, healing Americans, and just like have giving Americans a choice in the matter, you know, our with our mental health care system being so in in this this situation of it's end, you know, getting people involved in the political process is just really important, and I think it's gonna help us shift the stigma around he's medicine to his government. Lorilee Binstock Well, you yourself was not someone who was someone who did poking unquote drugs right. And so this is kind of a surprising term for you. This was what twenty twenty, twenty, Yeah. Twenty nineteen my, twenty nineteen is when I... Like, really found the solutions and, like, stepped into this political process. Prior to that I was a Dc government employee. I was working in policy and budget. And know, working at a a hyper local level was super gratifying. It's like the things that I was working on and I could and touch and feel in my everyday life being a Dc resident, And that was great. And I thought well, this is, you know, I got my master's degree and policy. A few years before that, I wanted to do something that made Americans lives better. I didn't know what it was specifically. I thought I would really go into foreign policy. And that's why my entire master's degree was about is foreign policy, but you know, I think she... There's a saying you plan in god, a master plan and to just be, like a really solid public servant her the city of Dc was it wasn't my destiny at all? Yeah. I got... I was pregnant with my second child working and our version of City Hall and Dc. It's called the Wilson building. Man having oversight of various distributions is I was pregnant with my second child. I was dealing with a really difficult pregnancy. I've been an athlete my whole life I've always been active my first pregnancy had no issues. But my second one I I felt it was like, my she was like, to sucking my soul in a way. It was like, I it was a very hard process. Like, my body was just not working the same way that it did. I was, of course, a little bit older too having children in my late thirties, and I had really terrible. So, you know, being active was kinda taken out of the equation completely. I wasn't working out regularly because that, I wasn't really engaged with my health in general. I wasn't eating properly. You know, I was just kind of there's franchise from the process and you're dealing with. And I had a little taste of what people who deal with chronic pain, know, you was on a daily basis and that I see like that has a direct result on your mental health. And I was... If it got so bad that I was like, crawling up the stairs at the end of the night, when I couldn't stand off properly, I just could've... I was not comfortable. And it I had what they call anti part of depression. And it's not a very well known term. I never even heard of it before this. Yeah. I've never heard of that. Yeah. There's time I'm hearing about it. Yeah. I was going in for a regular checkup And my regular physician was on vacation, so I was seeing somebody else. And she walked in the door and she just like, hey are you doing? I don't know what it was. Maybe it was, like a female voice that, you know, it was just comforting or something. But, like, I immediately started crying, And like I couldn't even articulate a word, and she immediately picked up her prescription time started writing me a prescription engine process. And she's, like, just take this. You'll feel better, immediately. You'll get off of this after you deliver the baby. Everything will be fine and they're so healthy soon. Process. Now I knew that that most likely, wasn't gonna be the case. I've had two friends now, take their own lives, while they were all depression. Yeah I've seen other friends who have been on depression of various kinds for twenty years. You know, I I've seen them a struggle with tapering off of one and trying another one and just the uncertainty that goes along with that. So And mind, I was getting prescribed this job, it supposed to help me, but I knew that it could have potentially harmed me even further. So, guys. So I just... I talked to the prescription and I went home, and I was just... It did it wow with me and I was talking to my husband Daniel about it, and he was like, well, if you're not comfortable taking it, like, don't take it, we'll just try and figure this out another way. But there's... Really... When depression, kinda takes over, it's there's you you lose the range of your ship and she... You know, something else takes you takes you over. And no matter what I did, nothing was fixing this and it was just getting worse and worse. But I made it through the pregnancy, delivered the baby. He's healthy, happy. That's I kid alive. But after, and I felt okay for, like, a week or two, and then after two weeks, my health just like, completely declined. I was in the most severe depression that I've ever been, and I've never had any mental health issues prior to this experience. I had a little bit of part with my first daughter, but that went away as soon as I could, you know, get my bearings and get in their routine again and I started going back to work and working out and to fixing a diet. So I had assumed that this would just naturally go away, like, my other experience did or how that other kids happen. But this just progressively got worse. I was also dealing with paralyzing anxiety. I was having panic attacks on a regular basis. I had extreme paranoia. I never, like, let my husband drive the kids around. Like, if the kids were in the car, I was driving I was convinced that, like, he was, you know, gonna bake a bad judgment call. Like, it was very strange, the places that my mind went. And then the at the very worst part of my depression I was hearing voices and it experiencing to the idea. So And I believe that term, you know, there's, like, a term for a push part of psychologists. Right? Nothing nothing is very little data supports this, and, you know, we're we're not really given any resources. You know, You know, this your mom after you a kid. You your baby has, like, twenty checkup, but you have your one checkup. Your doctor tells you you're clear to have sex and that you're on your way. And, like, that's the milestone for you. No one is regularly checking in on you and I and for me, like, I don't have any family in the city. I have, like, extended family out in the suburbs, that, like, they're old and they can't really be his hands on, like, without somebody coming in and helping. It was really hard to kind of manage all this. And in so and I was trying everything. And except you're were into depression. Okay. Yeah. That's I I was very the paranoid I had about antidepressants before this experience was just, like, completely... It completely exaggerated during my depression. Like guy was convinced at that point if I had gotten on these drugs if that would be my permanent doom, I would take my life, like, that would be the end of me. Mhmm Wow, if I was just dealing one my depression without ancient depression, like, I I was experiencing I idea, but I felt like I was in control of that decision. You know? And whenever I was ready to do that, I would go ahead and do that. And it wasn't a medication that was altering my mind and, you know, making me worse. Right. Right. So they can... It can. Yeah. I mean, and they can work for people as well. I've seen success stories out of this. But if there is another medication we can take and another therapeutic experience we can have, that's extremely effective. So far is what we're learning. Like, why not explore this idea? Like, in real life application? For American people. You know, it can't be... It's already proven that's not worse than what we currently have the on. So So I stumbled up on a podcast and actually a friend of mine who said and he listened to this podcast with Paul Stamets, and we didn't talk to anybody really about our depression, our kids. Our friends were having kids at the same time. Everyone was, like, truly enjoying the experience of what it seemed, like, And and I felt like, I'm really struggling right now. And I life, why I have everything I wanna. I got an amazing husband. I've got two beautiful healthy children. I I've gotta roof over my head. Everyone's fed and clean, and we've got two stable jobs, like, what more could a oppression lot. Alright? So there were these also extreme feelings of guilt, like, there there's something inherently flawed in me that can appreciate all the guests that I've been given. And it... It of course, it wasn't that it's very little to do with that. I mean, you can be surrounded by I mean, my my last frontier took life, she was surrounded by amazing people an amazing group of women a community of women that supported her and helped her try to navigate through her depression. She had a husband who is awesome. A beautiful daughter, you know, if a job she worked for the Smithsonian, and she had all the support systems in place that you think would keep a person alive, but she still decided to take her life. So that's how, like, dire this disease is you you can be in a amazing situation in this phase of your life, but if you are dealing with this illness, you're convinced the exact opposite everything and that you're worthless lesson and nobody loves you, and it's it's extremely debilitating, and it's it's now we are learning it's impacting many more Americans and we thought it was. Yeah. I mean, the woman in Massachusetts right. The woman who was dealing with post part and the psychosis, and she took, you know, murdered her three kids. Right. And she tried to take her own life. Yeah. And it doesn't sound like she didn't have the support that she needed. You know, her husband came out not long after. And was like, please forgive her. This is not who she was. Right? And and, you know, that's pretty. Right? Like, like up million about to cry right now. But, yeah, as you you think about, like, they... She was on antidepressants. She was on multiple anti antidepressants. I was reading about that. And, again, like, I'm not saying that antidepressants are bad because they... You know, for me, they were helpful for me to kinda put out the fire, but that wasn't something that I needed to stay audio. But like you said, like, for her, she was on antidepressants, andthe event that happened happened still, You know? Yeah. No one. It's it's very unclear. What to do in the situation, obviously, I feel like doctors are still not. They still have no idea. Yeah. But you found a way, Yeah, which I think we really need to explore more. Can you talk about how you... Because you started micro designing from podcast the the Joe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The false Damn. Mhmm. Can you talk about a how you decided? How did how was that decision making you heard this podcast? Academy. And what was your next thought? Like, I'm gonna do it or where you really had tip. The next thought was more like exploratory. Like, okay. I I've heard... And I did my own one of the deep dive into the Internet about psychedelics in general, especially psilocybin because that's what Paul was talking about in that podcast. And I was like, well, how can I do this illegally? You know, like, let's explore what the real options are here. I could apply for a clinical trial, which I did and eventually, didn't qualify for those are very hard to get into very few spots available for people to get into that. And once you're into them, mean still might be given a placebo. But then I looked at there's retreats in other countries. And at the time, like, we have a growing family, we're too nice government employees like, I didn't have, like, five grand to blow on a wellness retreat. But you know, that sounded so despite the dire situation that I was in to get on a flight away from my new fan my menu baby, my other child, my husband, and like, go with to Jamaica. It it it seemed like, surely there must be another way. You know? Right. Let's do illegally. Yeah. We had to do it illegally, fortunately you want, and we figured it out. So my husband went on reddit in Youtube and wants videos. I think he I can he grew up around mushrooms. I this was not a new concept for him. Right? He is from Northeastern, Alabama. He was taught at fourteen years old, which mushrooms to pick off the cow patty. Yeah. Women his friends would go listen to music. It was a part of their culture there. So he was listening to that podcast being like this it... Like, confirming everything is like, yeah, everything that he's saying is true you're never hung over. You feel amazing. You don't wanna do it very much. It's not like you're gonna have, like, seven days in a row, a lot of the mushroom bend, you do it once, maybe twice and you're good for a long time. So he's at this point in time, we were in couples counseling because I was the only way I would go to therapy is if he was literally dragging me there, our marriage was suffering. I was a completely at mother, like, totally disengage with my children, not knowing what even going on at school. My nanny was full blown, raising my son. They thank God for her because she really filled in and was that emotional support for him that I really credit her for him being such a great kid. And because when I went there, those years zero to three are super informative, and they say, like, the more effects you give your child, the better you are, the better off of Ar are the our adults they're more functional they're more balance. And I was just... I was doing this very, very minimum. I was feeding. I was just change diapers, but there was not a lot of love that they were getting for me. So I had... And and my husband filled in when he used kind of social work background, he understands the system. So he filled in and where he could where I was absent. So I had at least my children were taken care of in that way, but at this point, we were so desperate for a solution that we were like, let's just figure this out from the underground. You know She can buy spores online legally. So we bought the spores and we bought rest of supplies that like lowe's or Amazon. It was not very difficult to finals. Size. And we just experimented our first time, and it was super successful. We had amazing they're color flesh. We had his amazing flush. And it was cool to have this like science experience. So like oh, okay. We are growing medicine. This is awesome. So we did in our bedroom. It took a long time to, like, have mushrooms that we could eat. But how long would it take? Oh, man. At least, it was, like, three to six months. Oh my goodness. I have, like, memory issues from this period of time in that race? And as do most people who deal with true. It's it that was, like, the... I feel like the saddest thing is like, oh, there's parts of my kids lives, but like, I just don't remember. So I'll go through my especially my husband's camera role and seeing and he'll be like, do you remember this? So be like, I don't what were we doing? I don't I really don't recall certain things with them. But the... I remember the mushrooms taking a little while to pick up because it it's in multiple phases. So it was a a good three to six months before we had any. So during this time, did you what was your... What was your mental state like? Were you like, okay? Well, there is a way. So I'm I'm just gonna get through each day or was their days that you were just like, fucking I'm gonna kill myself. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. Because at this point in time, no alternative therapy had really worked for me. Mhmm like I said, before, I wasn't going to talk Therapy. I was getting dragged to couples therapy. So, like, I hated that process and it's just miserable doing that.  So I was like, well, this is just gonna be another thing and if it works, consider me lucky, and then as it doesn't, like, either I get on the depression or I kill myself. And if I get on the depression, I show my kale myself. So there was really one option and one way out of this terrain, like, this I was convinced this was my life now, and this is just how I am and I'm forever changed. But I started micro, and, you know, there isn't a lot of data about micro producing, but I was really uncomfortable having a full blown psychology experience. These are not drugs I ever tried in my party days. I know it's never curious about My none of it. I thought I thought these were drugs were burnout out and, like, loser. And and like I I I had in my mind, the picture of somebody who takes a psychedelics and it's so funny that I'm doing this now because I'm I'm was so far off. Right now. Right. And so I was like, well, I'll just start with micro. Let me build up some confidence in in this process and dip my toes in first. And don't need to go all in. And was in a matter of of, like, three days. I was on the floor playing with my son, and that was the first time my husband had ever seen now. Yeah. So he was like, for his my he's like be shit. Like, my wife is back The person I married, you know, And he always jokes around that he married me because I was quote unquote the normal you know, I was... I was a steady girlfriend that was just, like, always there. Never, you know, we never fought, and we had the most normal healthy relationship. I ever had. And so for him to see there's, like, tiny glimmer hope, he got really excited for it. So but I was still going do this process very cautious and not... Getting my hopes up too high because, you know, that disappointment I knew it was coming for me, but I continued with the micro and was getting into a rhythm with life, and was starting to feel good again. And then we run out of mushrooms. And I was like, okay. Well, maybe I just don't need to do this anymore. Mhmm. But my depression started to creep back. And we tried to grow another slash mushrooms, and it got contaminated. They're they can it terminated very easily. Obviously, we're not doing this in a lab. Right we're doing it in our bedroom. So we tried to create sterile environment as my can make skin control matters, And how does it can become contaminated? Just something in the area that wrote like he would whenever he was and not them, I think... You have you ain't knock. You said it's like a real different process. Oh you were sure. You can fringe. She was just gone to a farm. I know. I know. But that like we... I've got two kids in the job. I have time to go, like, Peru fires to the girl, Virginia, You know? Can I just check out your cal? Sorry. They know what we're looking for too. I'm sure they're you. Yeah. So this was like... And this was a way to do it in into us, it wasn't a controlled environment. No one knew we were doing this. We were two public servants, like, my husband has worked in Dc politics and she has a lot of of very great hours of people here locally. And we didn't want anyone to know we were doing this. So it wasn't a situation where, like, we were asking our friends around who had mushrooms. I'm sure somebody did we looked hard enough, but we were was very hush. She was... First of, no one really understood the gravity of what we were dealing with with my depression. And then second, like, how do you ask your friends if they have the schedule one substance? I it like, send them to federal prison for decades. Do you know like, it is just That's a question that not a lot of people wanna ask and So growing them was really the only option for us, and it was working for a really long time, but when we click grow anymore, it became obvious. I needed to have, like, a a true intervention, and that's when I just got referred it. Alaska, and that was through one of our friends who one of, like, the three friends that knew when we were struggling and I say we were struggling. Was like, I was suffering from depression, but my husband was definitely struggling with keeping our life together. Right? You know, I have a lot of pressures. Yeah. I'm gonna hub for the family. And if if I'm not functioning properly, everything kind falls apart, and that's just... The roles that we play. And, you know, it it was it was very hard on him, and I think that he is just now, like, getting out of, like, the post depression spells, and she blow back. That happens when somebody goes through something. In in a couple. But one of our friendswho Daniel talked to frequently about what we were going through  was like, she had her own experience with Iowa, and I in my own deep dive of looking our develops and what the landscape was I Can let why are they illegal, what's the history? Why are policies the where they are? What is the cultural history of this? I was somewhat familiar with alaska, and I knew that it was something that people were doing in South America and they're having amazing, like, benefits from it. People would eventually just go down to South America have a a week long experience and come back and feel like themselves again, and but my friend was like, that this like, you don't need to go to soften america like he... There's a guy. I know he travels around, and I only by word of mouth, he's coming to New York City in two months, just take a train and get up here. And I think that, like, I wouldn't have even been gone on a train if it wasn't for the mushrooms getting me out of the very doable bowl. But at least like, I was in a place I felt okay to partnership it and like you get on a trains in New York City and go through this, like, extremely sensory experience of just like getting through New York City to Brooklyn where this guy was host this ceremony. And, you know, looking back, That was so incredibly brave of me or like dumb. I don't really know. I that. I no. I need to be a little dumb to be brave. But I went to the strangers apartment and with twenty people that I had never met before, including the the healer, and drinking or drink that he he made himself, and I have no idea what's in it. I have no idea what if it would test positive for anything. Like we are in, like, the fentanyl days of already writing, we only need to be really careful what we put in our bodies. Especially with illicit of substances. But at that point, again, I've had a little taste of relief from depression and I was... So I was hopeful that this could be the thing. Right? Like, with mushrooms, I'm like, I don't know if this was gonna work. We'll try But I've... In mushrooms and Are very different to totally different chemical structures. But I knew that they were the similar class of drugs. So I I was very hopeful that Ayahuasca was gonna be what helped me. So I had a few ceremonies with that And that completely transformed my world and allowed me to start building my life back and I don't think without Or without that very big experience was like could alex I would have gotten there. But, yeah. That's kind of what started this whole entirely trajectory in my life with what I'm doing right now. It was an it... And it was a miserable experience it not a recreational drug by any means they don't rely anyone with just wouldn't wanna take that to get like, to party. It's it's maybe it was, like, physically extremely painful. And you get... You vomit, you get diarrhea. You cry uncontrollably. You laugh on control. They there's moments when, like you just you just don't know, but it's it's doing something in your body. It's moving your energy around. It's all that stress and trauma that we store in our body and we don't know how. But like we store in places, like, and in some people, it's different in me was my gut, like, it was it all came out of my system, and I I woke up the next morning, and it wasn't like I woke being like, I am healed. Know. Like... But as time went on and those days went on, I started to observe in, like, things with shift. Like my perspective would shift on things, and I would be like, well, well, this is something that's not good for me and I need to change that. So I slowly started to change the things in my life that we're not working for me and until this day, still changing things in my life that are not working for me. And I really do credit dialogue for that. Yeah. I feel like for from... I haven't tried I I feel like it is in my near future, but I did... I have heard that, you know, it gave them the opportunity to make some changes that they were scared to make previously in their and, you know, yeah life prior. Yeah. I mean, you... People that deal with depression, you gets stuck in these loops in these trains of thoughts where you're you're... Keep telling yourself the same story over and over. It's like, you for everyone's different, but for me, is it's like, you're not worthy of any of this. You don't appreciate the like you are... You've been given every single gift in the world and you're just sq it. You you don't love your children. Your children will end up presenting you. So that you get stuck in these loops, and I found that dialogue alaska broke me of that of that line of thinking and, like, it cleared the deck so that I can create new narratives about myself. See that's what I need to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's just really powerful and if you if you do the diet beforehand, and you're really take seriously, you go in there with an open mind and you're willing... You you understand that this is not gonna be the magic tool for you that it it is on you to fix your life. And you can go into that experience of the open mind. It can be an extremely effective tool. I have heard people with crazy stories of walking into an ayahuasca ceremony and, you know, dealing with debilitating arthritis and their hands are all cramped up on the like, the fingers all granted up other actually like, they can spread their hands open, like, they're arthritis. And, like, that doesn't like the exception here. Right? Like, we still have so much to learn about these medicines, but also, the culturally people in south America Have been doing this for centuries. So there's something to this. Right if it wasn't working, this wouldn't be a practice that's currently hell today. Yeah. And and that's pretty much with after that I ayahuasca gun ceremony, that you decided, I'm going to work on de decreasing plant medicine in Dc. I remember when that was on the ballot? Yes. Yeah. Is definitely not my first spot at all. But I was watching One Denver, and that was the campaign two mushrooms for the city of denver. And that was going on wow we were going through this process with, like, trying to grow our mushrooms and sixteen succeeding and then failing and then finding How I walked. And so being kinda experiencing in politics, my husband's worked on a few campaigns as well. We were like, let's... You know, let's call up the campaign. Like, you could find anybody on the Internet now. So we connected to with him over Facebook, and we had a a really good call with him. And just asking like, what are the noncitizens of Denver saying? About this, like, what is law enforcement saying about this? When, you know, what what are what are your marketing materials? How are you talking about this in general public? And, you know, for us, we were just, like, curious about what our impact could be. I think initially, we were thinking of just utilizing the our network of political people to just educate, I guess, you know, we never... I've never wanted to be a front person for anything I was always really uncomfortable with attention. I assumed that my husband would be the one that has, like, this amazing career and, like, things would take off for him because I mean, he was perfectly positioned to do that. He's worked for a politician for So it it it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna be the spokesperson for women everywhere who healed us themselves It was more like Okay. We have we had this conversation in this conversation led to a connection with other people, and let's let's go have conversations with them too. And see how we can help. So it was really just like connecting the dots as you go, like, driving and pitch black and, like, all you can see is, like, the next step. Yeah. But we kept taking more meetings, and then eventually, We got connected to Doctor Bronzer folks in Dc. And so Doctor Bronzer is this hippie show company that has all natural ingredients say I use work. Oh, yeah. Please use it for like, probably years. Yeah. Yeah that's. Amazing. I love the peppermint. My favorite in the cherry blossom there my jam. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I know Doctor Bronzer, but like I didn't realize that they ran to this. Oh, no. Yeah. Like, so they were... They've been really pivotal pivotal and getting cannabis reform through. They were very active in Have form. They... You know, David Bronzer puts a lot of money into causes that he really cares about. A lot of that is regenerative farming and drug laws. They were the ones sponsoring the Denver campaign. And David is is pretty politically sorry he's got a team of people here that he pays to be their, like, social activation team, like, they will put together a protest or they will try to engage Dc council on this shoes that are important to them. Anyway, they they were talking to dave the team here and David were talking and they were, like, we if we could do this in Dc Dc is was it the forefront of canada your reform? Why wouldn't it we be at the forefront front of Second reform. Mhmm. But they knew that the campaign couldn't be run by Cannabis folks. Because it's a very different kind of subject matter. And I go at the time, carried ton stigma I think cannabis is rich away a few of those fears already. But they were talking to Kevin Matthew is the guy in Denver who we who got us or start, and Kevin was like, you need to talk to a couple that morris and daniel Excuse me. They... You just need to chat with them. So like you didn't say much about us. But then the team here started to go on Facebook and look us up and turns out they had already... They already knew my husband through his time at Stacy Council, and when they were working on cannabis reform for the city, So they had my husband's cell phone number already, which was extremely fortunate. And at this point in time, we've connected enough dots and I like, I had identified key people in the city that, you know, if we were to do something, This is her who you'll do work with And one of those guys of adam manager. Who is the Cannabis guy in Dc, So my husband sends me tax message, and he's like, I guess who I just talked to. Could. You should be anyone. He's like I'm a manager. They wanna take a dinner white talk about I know. I was like, let's interesting. So, again, not really thinking that I would be running a campaign, but we we went out to dinner. I shared the experience that we went through and what we did, and they were like you are the perfect person to, like, spear a campaign. And just be the face of healing in Psychedelics through City, Dc. And I was like, you were in shade not never that campaign pain and I dana it. I know It was they was true I was convinced that, like, they had taken crazy pills because like, I was... I was never that person. Even speaking in public was terrifying to me. I was so cool with just being in the background. No That's crazy. Yeah. But so we had a back of we year a few months back and forth about doing this campaign. And I was like, or... You know, they got to a point where, like, we wanted to get on the general election ballot, like, the big presidential ballot you can get way more of voter turnout out. Which increases your likelihood success, And they tied time debt where they were, like, December of twenty nineteen was, like, the last opportunity to get the paperwork to the border of election so that everything can get approved in time and that we have time to get signatures and submit everything to get on the general election about it. So we have been going back and forth with them and it was then, like, trying to convince just do this, and we're, like, no No. No. Will help in the background. So I like, we're not gonna do this. So then Adam calls me and he's like, you know, I like, you know where I stand on this? I think you should do this, but I completely understand if you don't wanna do this. And I was just like, I can't. I can't guarantee my children's safety in this situation, like, at the time, nobody was talking about mental health. Nobody was talking Psychedelics. I didn't know what was going to be said about me, or was gonna be sent about us. I didn't know if they were gonna not get invited to kids parties from school anymore, like, with all the moms of school, like, just completely turn away from me and, like, think I'm some weirdo like drug person that is just you know, abusing my children and, like, having drugs in our house and feeling dangerous. I I had to like, go through that process. Like, figure out what was a worst case scenario. And I don't know this phone when it we went to bed and I was waiting and pen out she should so upset, and I like, you should feel good about the sister. You know? Like, you got the thing of the hanging over your head for a few months, like, you don't wanna do it. We we can't guarantee what's gonna happen to our family. But, like why you upset I was like, I feel like this is opportunity. The the last thing that Adam said, he was like, if you don't do this queue, if you don't wanna submit this paperwork like, we're gonna go ahead and do it anyway. So I knew that if I wasn't involved in the campaign that it would look drastically different than what the campaign that would be run by me would look like. And the messaging would be different. And I don't know if it would worked. The cannabis activist god bless them or are loud and, you know, very open about their use cannabis and that is that ten. That strategy can be really divisive with certain corners of politics. And I knew that you get one shot at a first impression and it's same with this issue. Same with anything. You have one shot to make your big sl on public, Did I want it to be a big loud campaign that was really colorful and, like, you know, in your face or with a campaign that was run by a working mother that was blood with compassion and with back and science and experience and experience and personal experience with, you know, and and extending compassion to others and being open and honest about what I have gone through and what is wrong with our system. How would that look? And I just had a feeling in my gut that if I was running this campaign that it would be successful because people would hear me. And in my mind just like, well, if I a person who, you know, how to support a family had, you know, no trauma in my life that was my truly super notable. If if I was that close to taking my life being the well resource person that I am Being a very privileged person that I am very fortunate to have the life that I had. If I was that close to suicide, how what is this experience like, for other people, you know, that don't have the resources that I have. That, you know, don't have a spouse so that's really supportive or, you know, have parents that they can fall back on. So I knew that I had a feeling that this issue was much bigger than than what it what we were hearing from society. And I knew that if I was... I took a chance And I said, if I'm just opening and honest, hopefully, people will be receptive to that. And understand why I took the rest that I did, and maybe they will that make them feel compelled to take action and you know, demand that our governments take this issue seriously and past laws that support people that are dealing with these kind of issues. So the very next morning, I woke up I call it and I said, okay. I'm gonna do this campaign. He got so excited. So I'm calling the attorneys right now. We're gonna draft up all the paperwork. And we're gonna go board elections today the last day. Oh my gosh. So we submitted it on the very last day, and it was... I remember just seeing, like, my address on official, like vaglio initiative paperwork, and I was, like, holy shit. This is very real like this could totally blow up in my face. But in my mind, like, I went through what the worst case scenario is, Like, we're banished from society. We are marked as the weird people. We have our scarlet letters on us. And, you know, and I told my husband are was, like, if that happens, we can just pick up in move if we've been in Dc for twenty years. We've navigated through, you know, two recessions now, you know, we've we've had really... We have really great work experience that we could just take somewhere else and no one will know who we are, and we can just start over. So that was my compilation prize like, okay. There's... It's not the been of the world. If this doesn't work out, at least I have my house. You know? At least I feel like I've got my life back I can go and take what I've learned from this experience. Just so not gonna live some tomorrow and let peacefully, But, again, you plan and God. Yeah So we... After we submitted the paperwork, we were about to get on a road trip to south where our families live. We were going to Alabama for Christmas. And I think that whole right home we're were just kind of like, oh, shit. What did we just do? Like what what is our life, like, we we were like, because as soon as we got back from the holidays, I was kicking off the camp officially. So I knew and after the holidays was through our life was forever change in one way or another. And like, we they didn't really talk about it with his parents. I never talked about this with my parents, they are not, like, they were... My parents are very cool in many regards, especially from, like, their immigrants. So, usually, parents or immigrants are, like, super duper abstract and I'm very protective of their children, like, they risk so much to create a new life in the Us for their children. And my parents are pretty cool about things, but this No. No. It. They would have been like, most you can't do this campaign and I really think this will be a career or career killer for you. And, you know, you've got two graduate degrees and you you're wasting your career on something like this. And what's the point of doing this? Like, they wouldn't have understood this and no. So I didn't talk to anybody about it. I only talked to my husband about it. I talked to a few people that worked at Dc council off the record, and, you know, some them, like, this could be successful, but I don't know. You know, it depends on how the campaign goes. You know? But it was It was definitely like, we we were walking into the unknown when we were getting back from the holidays. And but it was... It was it was a crazy experience. You know? Like, twenty twenty was a crazy year for me. I mean, for everyone but I yeah how did I sign up? For. Yeah. But also, probably one of the of the best year of my life. Like, I will never forget that because it shifted everything for me in a completely new direction. And I I do feel like I found my voice, and a lot of these things that you just scare me, like, public speaking and you know, being on camera, you know, having, like, fifteen minutes the same. It was just like, having the spotlight on me was okay suddenly because it was so above and beyond any hang I have, You know, like Oh, I hate some my voice or. I I hate the how I look on Camera. Like, I I overcame all of that because I knew this issue is far too important than to be concerned with something so trivial. Yeah. My voice or how I look in. Right now. So I got over a a lot of things and I got a lot of confidence back in twenty twenty because, you know, recovering from depression is process. There's not, like, one moment in time. You're like, oh, I'm not depressed anymore. It's like, very long artist's process. Like, I'd still something I work on to this day. It's a daily practice for me. It it involves, like, being active and and having my diet in track. I definitely, like, don't do it perfectly all the time it took you a while to get to this point even just because a lot of my time post depression has been in campaign you're running a a very new organization in a an marketing industry. And now it's it's like this is my next phase of healing really is putting in into a daily practice and creating a system that works for me so that I'm never in that situation again. Because, like, one thing that has linger is is anxiety, but I was managing it through, like, completely diving into my work. But then, like, in my idle times, it's like, I would sit my brain, would she'll be running, like, a hundred and miles hour because when... I was writing a campaign while working full time too. So that was like a crazy. What did they think about you doing this? You know, how does it was it's Dc government? Yeah. Yeah using our very small. So at the time, that all this is happening Also changed jobs, and I went from being at The Hobbit city Hall. To being in in an agency. So I was... I was protected by a few layers of people and also I wasn't going to the office every day. When I wasn't seeing right having. I I had this amazing cover where, like, we I wasn't going to office. We're all behind Zoom and teams and you know, it it never... I made sure that it never deserved my work, which means I was working around the clock. I never missed a deadline. I... You know, I I ensure that my day job was good, and everything was taken care of. Before I did anything with the campaign. So because I knew that if the moment that I would slip up at work, that would be... Then it would be a problem, but if I don't give them it excuse to, you know, call me out something. And on my work product is good. Like, I that gives me good enough cover. So I was really fortunate with the timing of all this, even though running a campaign with not having, especially a vaglio campaign where you need to get physical signatures by people. Yeah. Like, that one of money in twenty twenty right. And that was sticky waters navigate through for sure. And we had to change Dc laws so that we didn't have to collection signature you're in person. That you could send the balance to people's homes. So we had to... We have to kinda like, weather a period of time that we didn't know if the campaign was gonna continue. Like, we kicked it off and it was going amazing and well, we even shifted it online started doing whatever we need to do Facebook ads, Instagram, town halls. We did it all online. And the campaign was going well, but then we had this issue of actually getting signatures that we didn't know how removed get through it. So I had to very patiently wait while Dc council was putting together multiple emergency legislation packages to make sure, like, things don't just explain completely explode in the city. So, like, you know, protecting health care workers and making sure there's supplies. Like, I remember, like, I felt like, I had to wait for my right time to make our ask because, like, we're just so a bow initiative of campaign about psychedelic drugs. Like, it's... I I knew that it was not a top priority for Dc to change their laws to adapt to our campaign. But we got some laws changes in the third round of emergency legislation on the last by basic council that allowed us for somebody to self certify. So when you have... When you're doing a about of campaign, you get signatures and you have somebody that gather or signatures, and they witness the person signing that it's actually them and not fraud as somebody just signing names for people. So there's a, like, Affidavit and everything. So we to change laws so that a person can self certify that they've witness their own signature. So it's like kind of crazy, if we to change the form, and and my argument was, like, we can't let our democracy die in the middle of a public health emergency. Like, this is the foundation of everything that we're doing right, You know, the government unless continue. And, you know, there's elements of our democracy that must continue, otherwise we're not a free country and it actually works. So I, it was like the the argument made sense to does they again. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. After that, we were off the races. Yeah. And you led the most successful vaglio initiative. Yeah. In the history of Dc, Yeah. I mean, you know, seventy six percent, that's crazy. Yeah. And now you are the political face at Seasons. Right? Yeah. In front of psychedelic you are just... Yeah. Yeah. So we won the campaign by seventy six percent. I truly think it was because I'm not too my own horn here, but, like, what it was take your horn. It was very much like a regular person's story. You know? And I could I am a regular for some story. It's funny as like the... At one point, I would have, like, news crews at our house and, like, this entire crazy set with cameras lights and all this. And then Netflix was obviously filming parts in our campaign for I was in how to change your mind. Yeah. I watched that like I knew. And I did read. You had a a a wonderful piece. There is wonderful piece written about you in the watch Tony and too. I really enjoyed reading that. Yeah. That was probably one of my the most favorite things out the campaign paint was the most normal psychedelic metallic ask ever. Yeah. Like it it was funny to me. It's like I can't play it. And it's weird because on one hand, I would have a I remember it the day after the campaign, I was written up in high time magazine in the Wall Street Journal. And I was like, This is such a strange dichotomy right where, like, I'm my name is in the Street journal, but also in high times, which is like an iconic cannabis magazine. But, yeah, it was a weird moment like, what is my life. Like, what am I doing? What am I gonna do with us? Like... I got... I accomplice this major thing, and we educated so many Dc evidence about checking all drugs and you know, what's wrong with our health care system and what's happening with these medicines. And, you know, I wanted to do something with the I felt like this is an opportunity. And like I just couldn't go back to my old job. You know? I know you eat I mean, you are now the say of a movement. And, you know, that you you now are connected to... With, you know, you just had a briefing last week. Yeah. Wow. It's just with the things that you're doing. Mhmm. It's just amazing. Yeah. You. That's really, like,all that is very much not about, like, what I personally want to accomplice. But is very much like, what is the need for this... These medicines to get into the hands of American people and the safest way possible in the most affordable way possible. And I truly think that this federal advocacy piece has been the one piece that was missing prior to me. Creating second Medicine coalition. There was no organizing body kind of creating the strategic pathway forward for Psychedelic federal policy. I had watched cannabis reform just having the policy background that I have and just seeing how that distorted effort was like, the states were progressing, like, rapid fire, and then the federal government was you know, left behind. I mean, they're they were really left behind, but I think that Canvas industry was so, excited about the progress of was b managed shaped I a lot of focus went there, And then there wasn't an effort to organize the voices and cannabis reform for the federal government. And like I said, you get one shot to make it for suppression. So the first impression with cannabis was that there the the obvious flooded the gates and the the quote industry didn't come together and have consensus building. It was very throat, and a lot of what could have been amazing small businesses or small growers, you know, thrive. It was kinda just like corporate cannabis to Them and left the little main behind. And also, there's this huge criminal justice issue that continues to go undergrad. With the disproportionate amount of black man that are still in prison for cannabis events as well. People can run to a dispensary and writing, get their cannabis so, like there's a lot of holes in the in the policy space that that never were really addressed so now. You know, in congress and mind like, well, we're gonna states do what they want. And we're we're not gonna... I'm not gonna hang my hat. There's not a very few... Until recently, there's been very few senators and representatives I've willing to hang their head on Cannabis. So seeing that, and then knowing what the space like, a lot of the culture is like, addition to the West Coast, and it's very much like a West Coast cultural thing. Which is why I think there was a lot of excitement about the Dc campaign doing so. Well. Mhmm. But I knew that for this issue to be can have an impact on congress and actually, like, change laws that supported people having safe to affordable access. I knew that I needed to create an association that represents the entire movement because the sensations are really powerful. This like, yeah That there here you go. There's one association that's been extremely effective in getting laws that benefit their members. Right? There's a reason why they have offices over on the capital, and they're very they work side by side. They are the go between switching industry and lawmakers, and they do kind of synthesize his eyes what what really needs to make it through and what doesn't it? And really strategize on on on the path forward. So I created Check medicine coalition, and we launched it in January twenty twenty one. And we immediately realized that, like, before we ask for anything, like, we need to educate members of congress. There is very little knowledge about the potential psychedelic could medicine on a federal level. So since then, we have... I created over two hundred and fifty offices on the hill. We've done two briefings now. Our most recent one was last week, where we had Tim Far zooming in with Rick Wo who's executive director maps who's taking Md through clinical trial Fda. Yeah. Who's been who's been up pioneer and doing this for, like, thirty seven years. Doing it all with answering, no investors. He's got a public benefit corporation that's doing it because he really does want this to be something that the public can benefit from and not an investment play. So, you know, we are here to really be a conduit for the psychedelic space. To speak to their federal government and work with them. On addressing a lot of the issues that will need to be addressed. So we have multiple and clinical trial right now. We have May that's not to be approved psilocybin compass path just city you so excited through Fda clinical trial, though they will be approved probably a year or two after I'm the is approved. This is going to be a part of our system. Absolutely. But what will just look like and it's not a drug that you can just say this is approved, let's send it to offices so that doctors can give it to their patients. It's not a traditional pharmaceutical point. This requires, at least a protocol for Md requires to two practitioners in the room at the same time. Sixteen hours prior to your first treatment with, I believe that there's three that you get, and then there's sixty hours after So this is a huge time commitment to just get one patient through one session with. And our system quite frankly can't handle that. Like, we barely have enough therapist for people a lot of this work is is not reversible, so people don't wanna do it. You have to pay on a pocket for it. Yeah. Problem. There's a huge lot in therapist color that can speak to different demographics of people if we've got people that are dealing with racial trauma, they do not wanna go to a therapist that looks like somebody that happens like did in racial terms then, like, it has it, it's you're so vulnerable in these moments and the things that you're dealing with are so deep, that, you know, you you you gotta ensure that somebody's comfortable or otherwise, it gonna be a really bad experience it can like, negative effects on somebody so and even be handled with care. Yeah. Well... Absolutely. This is a completely different paradigm that we're trying to insert in our very rigid health care system. That does not have a mind body connection angle to it at all. Yeah. It is it's there's a lot that we need to address and, you know, our coalition can be really effective in doing that with bringing people together and getting getting the policymakers makers to understand that this is not a political bomb that you're taking on. This isn't gonna be brought up in your reelection campaign because that's really what they care about when they're name congress, But ultimately, they're a politician and they you know. They have to cater to their voters. Yeah. So they are very concerned with getting behind issues that would impact them negatively. And you know, it's just figuring out what they care about and what they've got through in life and, like, finding a way to wedge a story related to In there, you know? And the the first, like, crew to lead the charge in this our veteran. Mhmm. And I think everyone is kind of understanding that, you know, if we could bring to pull our opposite on a political structure together on this issue. This can be really effective and powerful. Like, the one thing that people on the hill have been bipartisan about is Psychedelic medicine. So veterans are a very specific demographic. They garner a lot of compassion. They've sacrificed a lot for our country, and they've really been dealing with like, a terrible situation with the Mental health swore. Right? not even in more times, but, like, there's issues that people in the military deal with, like, we had Whiz Buckley who is exactly director of a foundation called No Fallen heroes. Use was a top gun pilot, and he was at the briefing last week. And he was sharing that, like, his issues didn't come from Combat. None of them did. It was just the nature of the work, and trying to be in a plane where you're dealing with like multiple g forces and then landing the plane and the noise and the fact that he he constantly hears a noise in his ear to this day, You know, there's the the nature of the workers is so different. So intense that if we're not addressing any of these issues, Like, I think the military gonna have, like, a... I mean, I think they do have a recruitment problem. But, you know, how effective can they be as an organization if the soldiers aren't well. And that that's that brings together two different angles with the political spectrum. Absolutely. Lorilee Binstock: Well, I think your story is also something that's extremely important because you are completely fine isn't before you became a mother they're... And and for women, and I think it's also hard for them to really want to dive into psychedelics. I know that there are a lot of articles now coming out that, like, a long mushrooms Yeah. Or, you know, which I think is great. Because I I also micro and it very effective for me, but I think your story