The Invisible Machine & Reseting the Nervous System

This is a LIVE replay of A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast which aired Wednesday, April 26th, 2023 at 1130am ET on Fireside Chat.

Today’s guest is Jamie Mustard, Co-Author of the book the Invisible Machine: The Startling Truth About Trauma and the Scientific Breakthrough That Can Transform Your Life.

For more information about the Dual Sympathetic Reset Procedure, visit The Stella Center.

Lorilee Binstock  00:16:58 
Welcome. I'm Lorilee Binstock, and this is A Trauma Survivor Thriver's Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining me live on Fireside Chat, where you can be a part of the conversation as my virtual audience. I am your host, Lorriely Benstock,
Everyone has an opportunity to ask me or our guest questions on this show by requesting a hop on stage or sending a message in the chat box. I will try to get to you, but I do ask that everybody be respectful.
Today's guest is Jamie mustard, co author of the book, The Invisible Machine, The startling truth about trauma and the scientific breakthrough that can transform
your life. Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jamie Mustard  00:17:55 
Thank you for having me. I'm sorry. I've not used this platform before, so I'm just having technical difficulties.

Lorilee Binstock  00:18:02 
Oh, you are not the first one, and you will be the last So there's no worry there. I'm just glad we were able to get you on because I really am so fascinated by this because I've actually never heard about this. You co authored this book, the invisible machine, the startling truth about trauma, and the scientific breakthrough.

Jamie Mustard  00:18:05 
Perfect.
I

Lorilee Binstock  00:18:19 
And this you did this with doctor Eugene Lipov. An anesthesiologists
who developed this treatment.
Could you actually describe it? Because you actually
underwent this treatment. Correct?

Jamie Mustard  00:18:30 
I did. And one of the reasons, you know, a lot of people would ask kind of why would an artist
coauthor look with, you know, Yuzhou Lab is more than a
anesthesiologist.
He's a
you could say he's the Einstein of modern anesthesiology
and a
a scientist.
So the question is, you know, why would write her all go author a book with that guy? And and the answer is kind of your
your the way you kinda said at the top that you'd never heard of it. And the reason you've never heard of it is because it's been around for twenty years, and the military is using it. Yeah. And the military is used doing fifteen to twenty thousand of these a year. The second largest cohort getting it is sexual assault victims.

Lorilee Binstock  00:19:04 
Stop, really.

Jamie Mustard  00:19:12 
When I saw this,
I saw something that,
you know, whenever you see it on it's been on sixty minutes. It's been on Joe Rogan. It's been on CBS this morning. But when if you ever see it in the media,
it's always at the extremes.
It's always a navy seal,
a fur a nine eleven first responder,
when I came across this, I didn't see this as something for people at the extreme.
I saw this as something that maybe
could be affecting forty to fifty percent of the US
and global population. So my work was to go, hey. This is not for the extreme. This is for society
and everyone
that is experiencing
the symptoms that are associated with fight or flight that may never have even associated themselves
with trauma.

Lorilee Binstock  00:20:03 
I mean, to be honest, I never associated myself with trauma. I'm a childhood sexual abuse survivor, and I didn't realize I experienced trauma. I thought that was just something really
bad that happened that I will never talk about,
but you're right. I feel like that this is very fascinating, and it's a non invasive
outpatient procedure?

Jamie Mustard  00:20:23 
Okay. So, yeah, you asked me what it is. I wouldn't use the word noninvasive.
I would use the word safe.

Lorilee Binstock  00:20:27 
Okay.

Jamie Mustard  00:20:29 
And minimally invasive. It's basically,
he uses a needle to do what we well, we know it's safe because the shot was originally developed retaining hands in nineteen twenty six.
It's now evolved. The doctor kind of reconfigured it and evolved it.
So you it's now we call it he's evolved into what we're calling what he calls
the dual sympathetic reset.
And, basically, what you're doing is you're doing a pain injection that's guided that's guided by an ultrasound. You get a local anesthetic first, so you don't even it feels like nothing.
And
he uses an ultrasound to
guide
a needle that has a tiny you know, so a small amount of anesthetic in it, the same anesthetic that goes into an epidural,
same two dollar amount of anesthetic that goes into an epidural. And your sympathetic nervous system is basically located
in the ganglion, which is a nerves a a a a a
a
a
a string of nerves that run from your amygdala all the way down your but your sympathetic your fight or flight system is in your neck on both sides of your neck.
And what he does is he
in inject this.
God, I think it's I'm gonna get the name of it wrong. But
yeah. But it's the same it's the same, you know,

Lorilee Binstock  00:21:45 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:21:47 
stuff that goes into an epidural. And what it does is it turns off your sympathetic nervous system,
and it comes online about ten minutes later
at baseline
to the pre trauma state. So you're basically resetting
the sympathetic nervous system. And what we're fine with what what they found is, you know,
the adult trauma or blunt force trauma is on the right side. You can only do one side per day. K? You do two injections on one side, and then you can get the next injection the next day. Anything before puberty or childhood trauma
is on the left side.
And then yeah. So they'll always do the right side first,
and then people that will have have had trial to hood trauma

Lorilee Binstock  00:22:27 
Well,

Jamie Mustard  00:22:30 
may not
experience the reset. So they're starting more and more to to to both
on almost everybody.

Lorilee Binstock  00:22:40 
Wow.
You know, I I and, you know, I know about fight or flight, and I didn't know it was about a cluster of nerves in your neck. I'm wondering, is this why I have neck pain?

Jamie Mustard  00:22:49 
It might be I mean, you have to think of it like this.
Well, first of all, Laura Lee, let me say thank you so much for having me. It's, you know, just a real honor to be here.

Lorilee Binstock  00:22:57 
Oh, of course.

Jamie Mustard  00:23:00 
You know,
you there's two things that causes. One is blunt force trauma. Like, you and I are very Well, we're similar in this regard. I experienced an extreme
massive amount of trauma as a kid probably that most people would never not be able to survive in any sort of meaningful way and
live my entire life up until,
I don't know, five years ago, seven years ago.
Where I was in total denial that I'd even been traumatized. You know, in my in my upbringing, you know, growing up how I grew up is where I grew up in the neighborhood I grew up in. You know, being a victim was the last thing you could ever be. So I never

Lorilee Binstock  00:23:30 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:23:39 
the thought of thinking of myself as a victim
was just not in my,
you know, just in my in my thought profile. So I just didn't think I had trauma. I got therapy for the first time five or six years ago
with your counseling. After about six weeks. This very lovely. I talked about this in the book. Therapists
diagnosed me with, you know, acute post traumatic stress disorder.
And it's not a disorder. It's actually a physical injury to the body, and you can see it on a brain scan. But she
diagnosed me with PTSD.
I laughed in her face,
because I thought it was such a ridiculous
thing.
She her eyes walled up, and she looked at me
And she said, Jamie, have you been listening to the stories you've been telling me?
And I said,
yes. And she said, how could you not?
And in that moment,
my whole
kind of bullshit life narrative fell apart,
and I kinda went home and hugged the cactus.
I
I started, you know, realizing not only you know, I I not only has I had I've been victimized.
I had been
you know, just completely
savaged and ravaged
as a child, you know, abandoned
you know, at birth with strangers, you know,
very little physical touch in and out of institutional environments.
You know, all this stuff It was, you know, just severe,
egregious
trauma, and I was just like, wow. You know, that's normal. That's what I knew.

Lorilee Binstock  00:25:11 
Well,

Jamie Mustard  00:25:15 
Yeah. So so about five or six years ago, when my my first book came out, maybe it's less, maybe it's, you know,
or maybe it was before that.
I was starting to get to kinda where I wanted in life, and
I
for the first time ever was looking back. You know, I didn't wanna look back. But when I was getting what I wanted,
my discomfort as a person
wasn't going away. In my mind, I thought, god. If I'm just successful,
I'll feel relaxed.
And I was getting successful
and feeling
very unrelaxed, but actually more dis more uncomfortable than I'd ever felt, and I couldn't understand why. So I started
when I got this post traumatic stress diagnosis,
I started looking. I was friends I turned a literary juke with
a a really well known
military
psychologist,
Shawna Springer,
Doc Springer,
and she had started
She was sending people for this procedure,
and
I ended up in the middle of COVID
to have years ago,
getting on a plane in the middle of COVID
and going to Chicago in the winter to do this kind of what I thought was a very avant garde
procedure.
And it was very strange that I did that literally because when you grew up, like, raised by wolves or kinda thrown away like I was, you don't go to the doctor. So you don't go to regular doctors. Let alone go and do kind of new treatments.

Lorilee Binstock  00:26:41 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:26:45 
But I I when my first book came out, I had a very well known forensic psychologist
named doctor j Faber, who works at Amen Clinic.
He was a fan of my book, and he and I become friends.
And so I just said as a friend, can you bet this thing for me? And it was all upside and no downside.
And so I almost backed out fifty times, but I did it.

Lorilee Binstock  00:27:11 
Can you tell me what that was like?

Jamie Mustard  00:27:13 
Oh my gosh.
Yes. It was the most transformative
thing
that I've ever done in my life, it completely changed my worldview.
And that is because
it was like, I had a lot of judgment towards people, you know, towards people where I grew up the bad neighborhoods where I grew up towards addicts.
Towards people
that were, you know, couldn't get their life together. I had judgment.
K?
When I had when I got both sides of this thing done,
the discomfort
that I'd been experiencing my entire life that I thought was a part of me I won't you know, was gone. It was just like I was me. I didn't feel I didn't even know I couldn't feel that way. I didn't even know because, like, when you're abandoned at birth, what's your I I never
even experience baseline.
Okay?

Lorilee Binstock  00:28:04 
Well, mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:28:07 
So it
I'm ever walking this is a good way to describe it. I was walking down the street after getting it in Chicago. I went to the Chicago Art Museum. I was there with friend who is supporting me. And I saw these, like, hustler guys on the street, and they were like and they were looking at me. And I kind of you know, that's something that's triggering for me. I really resent that because it kinda reminds me of my neighborhood, and these guys were looking at me like a mark. And, normally,
that would make me mad.
When I saw these guys, all of a sudden, I didn't see crazy people. I didn't see hustlers.
I saw their biology.
These guys are stuck in fight or flight. And I can explain to you what happens, but, you know, you don't need blunt force trauma. Like, what you and I went through to
need this. The I think the biggest cause of this and why I think it's such a massive swath of the population, and why I think most people that have post traumatic stress. Don't even associate with trauma. You can get is that what one, two things cause this. One is blunt force trauma like what would happen in war seeing your buddy killed in front of you

Lorilee Binstock  00:29:10 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:29:11 
or
a sexual assault.
But the other thing that causes this, and I think it's the much more
predominant cause
is prolonged allostatic load, chronic stress over time.
Okay? And so

Lorilee Binstock  00:29:28 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:29:29 
just
so by by
feeling that sense of comfort, my own body, and sense of relief.
My it changed the way just I interact with people now when I see somebody reacting in fight or flight towards me rather than taking it personally or thinking they're crazy.
I understand the biology of it, so it just I just I I have only compassion.

Lorilee Binstock  00:29:54 
That's amazing.
That's amazing. And I and I feel that
You're right. I feel like
I don't know, like, probably ninety, even more than that percent of the population has dealt with chronic stress, especially in America.
And I feel like,
you know, everyone can benefit
from
from, you know, a a treatment like this. I feel like that there's
every a lot of people everyone I know deals with a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety.
And for something like this to be available and to
you say twenty years. I'm like, what? I just heard about this,
like, last month.
And so I'm intrigued.
Does this treatment need to be accompanied by
ongoing therapy
or
or or what? What would you suggest?

Jamie Mustard  00:30:43 
It it it's a it's a great question, and and I'd like to answer it, and then I'd like to kinda back up and explain
very specifically how one could get this and how a lot of your listeners right now are are going, well, do I have trauma and I know it? And how would you know it? And
but something he's saying is resonating to me. So look with me. So I wish I could understand this more. So let me kind of explain the kind of how it works with other therapies. And then let me kind of back it up and explain why and how I came to write a book with who I think
made the most
preminent most important medical discovery since the discovery of Penicillin in nineteen twenty eight. And I would compare it as a human discovery to the moon landing. If we can reset the nervous system, it changes the world.
And so I think this guy will go on to win the Nobel Prize because
even if you compare it to the polio vaccine,
you know, suicide is linked to fight or flight.
If you, you know, fifty thousand people a year stopped dying because when they when the polio vaccine was discovered, I think, in the forties,
That
the amount of suicides this could could prevent in a year dwarfs that number compared to all the other ailments and physical
conditions because this conduct if you have an a a novactive
sympathetic nervous system, if your nervous system is stuck in fight or flight, you're gonna have a cascade of physiological
problems.
It discombobulates
the immune system. It destroys this scavenger system in the body,

Lorilee Binstock  00:32:13 
Right.

Jamie Mustard  00:32:15 
which is the system that is constantly,
you know, keeping you from having autoimmune diseases,
orthopedic problems,
cancer,
that system can get discombobulated.
Right? So, you know, if the body keeps the score, that I would say this is the scorekeeper.
But I think maybe backing it up and and and and kind of coming to how did I come to write an artist and and our come to write a book with a a a scientist.
Right? But so, basically, I went and did this thing. My life was changed.
And a couple months later, I got invited
by two colonels that run all the training for special forces.
To speak to come to Fort Bragg and speak to special forces at JFK auditorium
regarding my book, The Iconist,
okay, which is kind of like a Malcolm Gladwell type book to business communications and art book. And
it was kind of crazy. You know, I'm a kid from the strums slums of LA, and all of a sudden, I was going to Fort Bragg and teaching site, you know,
psychological operations how to create better counter propaganda against the Russians and the Chinese. You know, I mean, it's crazy. That I would be in that situation.
So I got invited to Fort Bragg. When I got this procedure,
the doctor came into
the
wait into the to the host op room. And he said,
hey. And I wish I'd get it from the inventor, doctor Eugene La Bauch, my co author. And he said, hey. I was told to treat you like a VIP. Why?
And I said, well, I'm an author, and we have a mutual friend. So our mutual friend, you know, I have a bit of a platform, you know, probably wanted to make sure I was taken care of. And then he left again, and then he came back. And he said, listen. This procedure is gonna this
I mean, I get what what are you this the
try this anesthesia, this thing that you just got in your neck, it's gonna wear off in about seven or eight hours. Can I pick you up at the hotel and take you to dinner?
And we we talk about this in the book.
And I said,
Sure.
You know, why not? And so he picks me up from the hotel. We go to this Mexican restaurant, this fancy Mexican restaurant with the windows open. It's raining. In the middle of COVID. The wind is blowing through, and he starts pouring
glasses of expensive red wine.
And download and gives me a three hour download of the science and history of this thing.
And my mind
and my my just mouth my jaw fell up. And I remember turning
to my friend who was at the dinner with us. He kinda sped off in his Tesla. We Ubered home,
And I turned to my friend and I said, we just had dinner with the smartest human being I've ever met.
And, you know, I've met a lot I mean, I went to the one in school then economics. I know a lot of smart people. Right?

Lorilee Binstock  00:35:04 
Wow.

Jamie Mustard  00:35:07 
So
so he and I so then a few I get back to Portland a few days go by, and I get a call from this guy, and he says, hey. I just read your book. And we just started talking, and we became friends.
Right after that, I got invited to Fort Bragg.
And I and the doctor couldn't believe that I was being invited to Fort Bragg by these colonel. So he said, hey. Can I come sit in the audience for your talk? I know they're doing my procedure at Fort Bragg, but they won't talk to me. I don't know how. So
basically,
I
talked to these colonel. They had never heard of this thing, the DSR at that time. It was called the FGB, the slight gainly a block. But they started researching it. They called me back, and they said, yeah. We're doing
ten of these a day, six days a week. They're they were doing three thousand a year Fort Greg alone.

Lorilee Binstock  00:35:57 
And was this on
active military?

Jamie Mustard  00:36:01 
Yes.

Lorilee Binstock  00:36:03 
Interesting. So

Jamie Mustard  00:36:04 
So

Lorilee Binstock  00:36:05 
go ahead.

Jamie Mustard  00:36:05 
yeah. No. So the VA was probably doing more. But the lot what really, what happened is there was a post traumatic stress, meaning
where I got really upset because I had to sit in you know, the colonel's arranged ten days of meetings. Even though it was six weeks away, it normally takes seven months to a year to get grand rounds at Wilmac. Doctor Lipa, the Dunground rounds at Walter Reed, the colonels arranged for the doctor to come with me and do Grand Rounds for all the doctors at Womack because they were doing the procedure at Fort Bragg based off of the ten year old paper. So it was to bring them into
all the modifications
because
ten years ago, this thing was seventy percent effective in the relief post traumatic stress. Now it's up to eighty and five to ninety percent.
So because of latest modifications. So he did ground rounds. And in one of the post traumatic stress meetings, I sat around for two hours and listened to these guys and come back from Iraq and Afghanistan and special forces guys.
And
their stories, and they were all told that they had a disorder, and it made me really angry because at that point, I knew one hundred percent
that they had a physical injury to their body and that post traumatic stress disorder does not exist. It's post traumatic stress injury,
is it physical injury to the body? You can see it on a brain scan.
So at the end of that meeting, I expressed my rage at the fact that these guys are sacrificing their bodies, their families, their wives, their children. They don't come back the same. And then they're being then their government is telling them they're crazy. It may be mad. And I said that. And so I think the guy that runs the health initiative task force, I think he was kind of you know, he kinda saw me as this Arty Rider guy. He didn't know what to make of me. But when I expressed my truth. I think he kinda started to respect me, and he called me over at the end of the meeting.
And he said, Jamie, have you ever heard of operator syndrome? And I said, no. And he showed of these symptoms on his phone. It was about eight symptoms.
And the the symptoms that you would experience if you were running from a tiger Okay?
And
I and and that this is what happens if you're never in a fight or fight at Fort Black bragging. Or to say, you're never in a fire fight in Afghanistan or Iraq, but you just you're deployed at a firebase,
and you have the stress of being away from your family, and maybe you could die that day from an IED or from something else. Right? So it's this prolonged allostatic load, but you're never in a fight. They call that operator syndrome.
Okay?
And when I saw that list of symptoms,
Laura Lee, I didn't see the military.
I saw the
Mexican neighborhoods where I grew up in Los Angeles.
And so my mind started spinning.
Could it be that the stress of poverty
or if you're middle class
and the stress of having distant parents, a mother that needles you, a mean father,
could it be that the chronic stress of that, a divorce
could cause the exact same biological injury as someone coming back from war.
Because the sympathetic nervous system is a machine,
an invisible machine, hence the name of the book, the invisible machine.
Could it be that that it doesn't think it's apathetic. So could it be that average people have the exact same symptoms in their body as someone coming back from war, but they don't know it because they just got it from having,
you know, parents that didn't hug them.
Or talk to them a certain way. And that and that's where
my mind met doctor Lipov's
staggering innovation.

Lorilee Binstock  00:39:28 
Yeah. I mean, that affects the majority of people.
Right? These are these they they are considered, I guess, little tee traumas,
but the react the reaction and the activation within the
you know, the amygdala, it's all the same. Right?

Jamie Mustard  00:39:46 
Yeah. I mean, let me kinda tell you kind of how let me kind of give a primitive way of how one gets this.

Lorilee Binstock  00:39:51 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:39:51 
And then go and why don't I go over the seven symptoms? That way, the people listening can go, well, I don't have trauma. Then they can listen to me, list it, and they go, maybe I do. Right?

Lorilee Binstock  00:40:01 
Please. Please.

Jamie Mustard  00:40:01 
So
yeah. So listen. I people, like, at the extreme, were seeking this out and finding it. But people like me were not and and, again, I wasn't the extreme. I just didn't know it. And I you know, my goal was to bring this to military
My goal is to bring this into the light, and I think it should be more popular or known than LASIK. It contains the way we we interact.
As a species. But, basically,
you have to think of it as if you were
running from a tiger. You know, you live in a jungle, you know, a bounce years ago, you're and you're
and you're a tiger comes out of nowhere.
Well,
in the moment,
It's Peter Levine's work. That guy, he wrote a book, I think, in the yeah. In the was it in the eighties or nineties cold run? Yeah.

Lorilee Binstock  00:40:43 
Yeah.
Awaken.
Awaken the tiger.

Jamie Mustard  00:40:48 
Yeah. Running from the tiger. Yeah. Yeah.

Lorilee Binstock  00:40:48 
An unspoken voice. Yeah. It's a yeah. Awaken the Tiger. Yes. I've read I've read the unspoken voice of Peter Levine. I'm fascinated with somatic experiencing. But, yes, continue.

Jamie Mustard  00:40:55 
Okay.
Okay. So, say, a tiger comes out of nowhere. You live in the jungle a thousand years ago. Well, what is gonna happen in that moment? Is you're gonna have
seven or eight symptoms.
K? You're gonna have seven or eight feelings. Your amygdala
is gonna send a signal to these nerves on each side of your neck, and that's gonna jerk you into response. So you are walking on you're hiking up a mountain, and there's a cliff, and you almost slip and fall down it. Your amygdala sends a signal you signal to these are you on the swerve your car and hit somebody, but just you avert the accident just in time because your amygdala sends a signal to these nerves in your neck that jerk you in action to either flee or fight for your life. K?
Fireflies.

Lorilee Binstock  00:41:40 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:41:40 
Well, typically, if that happens and it's something like swerving your car, you're heightened for five maybe three to five hours because you felt like you almost died. And then
for for, you know, four or five hours later, you'll come back down to baseline.
Right? But if the trauma is too great, like your buddy being killed in front of you, or you
or then or a sexual assault,
and you have this overwhelming trauma.
The your your sympathetic nervous system
actually gets locked into fire flight.
So you're locked into feeling like you're running from a tiger
twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five days a year, seven days a week. K?
So what would you experience if a tiger or leap out of you? You would experience anxiety.
You'd be anxious that the tiger was gonna kill you. You'd have mild paranoia that the tiger was right there at that that moment. You would have a sense of doom. You'd feel like the other shoe is gonna drop every second because you knew the tiger was right there. You would be hyper vigilant about the tiger. You would be hyper aroused
about the tiger. You wouldn't be able to sleep because you can't sleep if a tiger is chasing you. You would be highly reactive and have a hair trigger because you would need to be reactive to survive the tiger.

Lorilee Binstock  00:42:49 
Right.

Jamie Mustard  00:42:55 
K?
And these guys that come back from Afghanistan and Iraq,
a massive majority of them, something like twenty five percent of them all have
erectile dysfunction because you can't have sex if you're running from a tiger.
In the military, the ultimate form of fight, and the ultimate form of flight in the military,
suicide,
is the ultimate form of flight where people are changing to protect. It's the ultimate form of flight. In the neighborhoods where I grew up where maybe violence is acceptable,
or life is cheaper,
homicide is the ultimate form of fight.
So I believe when you see these violence rates in the community that I live in, and you see these suicide rates in the military, it is one hundred percent an overactive sympathetic nervous system. So when you experience those symptoms, you can get that say the tiger never eats you. You're just in a jungle where there's lots of tigers. So you're you're carrying the stress
of the type of tigers all the time. K?
It it would be a
it would be a survival
mechanism. It would be a survival tool to be locked in firefly. It actually would help you to survive.
K? The problem is if you're sitting at home watching Netflix, you know, eating
Cheetos,
and drinking, you know, a LaCroix,
and you're feeling that way, it creates a really, really big problem.
And and think about it also like this.
We're meant to
experience those symptoms, anxiety, paranoia,
sense of doom or mild paranoid, hyper vigilant, hyper aroused, a lack of sleep, hair trigger reactivity.
We're meant to experience that for about thirty seconds where we either
flee from the tiger or we fight the tiger.
K? And then we're supposed to calm down and be normal as humans. K? Those are supposed to be short bursts.

Lorilee Binstock  00:44:43 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:44:46 
Of fight or flight.
If you have to experience like a tiger is gonna eat you in every second, twenty all the time.
Which is what happens when your sympathetic gets
stuck in fight or flight.
You're gonna you're not gonna wanna live. You're gonna wanna kill yourself. We're not designed to wanna live like a tiger is gonna eat us every second. You're gonna either wanna kill yourself or you're gonna wanna kill somebody.
Right? So
there was a guy named Frank Oport who defined

Lorilee Binstock  00:45:13 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:45:16 
Stockholm syndrome,
for the
in the nineteen seventies for the FBI, and he's a very famous psychiatrist.
And and in two thousand twelve, He's been working since two thousand twelve. He's been working very hard
with others to try and get the name changed from post traumatic stress disorder. To post traumatic stress, injury, PTSD.
So
can I keep going? I don't you know, I don't be able to Okay. So okay. Okay. No. So so

Lorilee Binstock  00:45:44 
Of course. Yes. Keep going. No. This is fascinating.

Jamie Mustard  00:45:49 
so let's back it up. So let so everyone's different. Like, the
You can, to a child,
a father that is distant, a mother that needles you, that allastatic load for a child is staggering.
And that person would not associate themselves with trauma. So I'm trying to get this away from just the extremes. I want those people to get it, but I'm trying to bring this to it. Kindergarten teachers, yoga instructors, plumbers, CEOs, accountants, attorneys. I'm trying to bring this to the every person.
Right?
But, you know, I think a really good way to explain this
is
Back at nineteen seventy,
doctor Frank Ochberg, this guy that came up with a term post traumatic stress injury,
And, again, you can see this on a brain scan, Laura Lee. So if I if someone has an overactive sympathetic nervous system and I scan their brain with a functional MRI,
I will see overactivity
in their amygdala,
and I will see decreased blood flow to their frontal cortex.
Normally to
g to fix to kind of mitigate against that, and then we're gonna get after I explain this, we'll get to how it relates to other therapies.
Normally, to mitigate against that,
I might need six months of hyperbaric,
no drugs and alcohol,
Cademy, so as you know, I could do a million things, and I would only mitigate against that so much. To and I could get some
decrease
in that overactivity in the amygdala from all those therapies for years. And maybe I would get
some increased blood flow
to my frontal cortex.
If you do this injection
where you just reset the nervous system with no side effects no long term side effects. There's a side effect that day.
They get you get it. And then the second day, you get it. And then by the evening of both days, it's gone.
If you get the reset, you
you're just
a person again, and you're not having to use all these things to it's like physical therapy in a broken leg.
You wouldn't do physical therapy over a broken leg. You'd set the leg, then you'd do physical therapy. So all these incredible therapies work but we're doing them over a broken leg.

Lorilee Binstock  00:48:03 
Right.

Jamie Mustard  00:48:08 
And so what you would see on a brain scan after
doing a DSR dual sympathetic reset is
that overactivity in the amygdala would be gone in a day. It'd be completely gone, and you have increased blood flow
to the
your frontal cortex
in a way that that years
of all those other modalities combined would never achieve. Because you're doing physical therapy over a broken leg. It also when you when you call it a disorder,
it's incredibly stigmatizing, and you could even say inhumane
if it's a lie, which it is because it's actually a physical injury of the body.
So it's like, if you we don't have broken leg syndrome or broken leg disorder.
When you call something a mental disorder that's actually a physical injury, it's very harmful. Incredibly stigmatizing.
But if you call it a physical injury, you take all the stigma away. No one has a stigma for over you having a broken leg because you can see it.

Lorilee Binstock  00:48:59 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:49:08 
You can't see an overactive sympathetic, but it's just as broken as a broken leg. It's the best metaphor to describe it. And that's why we call the book the Invisible Machine,
the StarLink truth about Trauma, and the
scientific breakthrough that can transform your life. But what I'd like to do, Lorely, and then I'll kind of back up and answer your question next question. I think I think this is the best way for people to understand and and and unequivocally
that what I'm saying is true. Like, I can hear people listening right now going, is that true? Is that true? Come on. How can it be a physical injury? I'm gonna say, well, here's how it's a physical injury. When I explain this, no one no one will question it anymore. K? Because I'll give you an an analogy that everyone can understand.
Back in nineteen
seventy, doctor Frank Ochberg published a book with a one through Stanford, scientists,
the guy that came up with PTSD in two thousand twelve back in nineteen
excuse me.
He published a book called
violence and the struggle for existence.
That book was put out by Little Brown,
It was
the the the forward to that book was written by Caretta Scott King, the wife of doctor Martin Luther King because it was two years
after his assassination.
Violence in the struggle for existence. In that book,
there is a chapter called biology and aggression.
And
and what what what
these scientists explain is we one hundred percent know that trauma
is biological.
And the reason we know it, we don't know how,
but the reason we know it
is because if you beat or abuse a dog, a goat, a chicken, a cat,
it's behavior changes.
Either becomes highly aggressive,
fight,
or incredibly
timid, flight.
Well, we didn't just give that goat or that dog a disorder. It's not sentient in the same way a human being is. So doctors, we knew we've known for a long, long time that when we traumatize something, we've changed the biology.
We just didn't know how until doctor Lipac first published on this in two thousand,
I think, two thousand eight.
Barack Obama
endorsed this as far back as two thousand ten.
So it's it's been out there. It's just always associated
with the extreme. You know? So when pop when doctor Lipa published on this in two thousand eight, Frank Ochberg found him. Now they're close friends.
So,
obviously,
we've all can relate to an animal that we know has been traumatized.
We didn't give it a disorder. We know we've changed this biology.
Doctor Lipov
figured out how and then how to reset
anybody to the pre trauma state.

Lorilee Binstock  00:52:04 
Wow. Well, I've this is this is extremely fascinating because, you know, I I am a huge fan. I don't know if you've listened to any of my podcasts prior, but I'm a huge advocate for psychedelic assisted therapy.
But I I'm
would you say that doing something like the DSR
And then, I mean,
do you
if
for it to go
haywire again, you would just have to experience traffic and or or you're completely reset.

Jamie Mustard  00:52:33 
No. If you go traumatize yourself again, you're one hundred percent going to have to
do this. You know? So a couple things I would, you know, say is one thing is, you know, what
one of the things that got me started on this journey. Is that is a conversation that I had with Daniel Amon? Do you know who he is?

Lorilee Binstock  00:52:53 
Yes. I do. Yes. Very fascinating stuff.

Jamie Mustard  00:52:54 
Okay.
Yeah. The ring that came to meet Daniel Amon is that forensic psychiatrist,
doctor j Faber, who got me really started on this journey. I mean, I would not If I don't meet Kaye Faber, who runs the Encino Amon Clinic, who's probably the most bona fide forensic psychiatrist
in the United States,
maybe the world in terms of education,
degrees, and board certifications.
He was a fan of the book, The Economist. He contacted me on the website and said, can you come to LA and speak to inner city kids, and I'll pay you through my my foundation? And I said, well, hey, man. I'll I'll come to LA, and I'll talk to kids. But I don't think I could take money for going to my hometown and talking to kids. But but I'll come out and do it, but I I just wanna take your money.
And but public speaking is a way that I make money, but just I wouldn't do it that way. Yeah. I wouldn't do I I told my agent that I couldn't charge for that. You know?
And

Lorilee Binstock  00:53:47 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:53:47 
but
this guy, he reads he and I become
friends. So he's the one that vetted the
at the time it was SGB, now it's DCR DSR for me.
And, basically, I asked him about this because I was really wanting to feel better because I was successful
And now I didn't have a reason for discomfort because I thought, well, if I just achieved my goals, I'll I'll feel good. And then I had all my goals achieved, and I was feeling worse than ever, and that was causing me
to be very concerned.
And
what you know, and the precursor to that is you know, growing up in poverty, people you know, I was semi literate into my late teens.
And I went from
because through the a relative gave me an opportunity,
to not be in poverty and to just focus on my studies for the first time in my life and to have eyeglasses and medical care when I was nineteen.
And I went from doing remedial classes at a community college to graduating from the London School of Economics in just over five years.

Lorilee Binstock  00:54:46 
No.

Jamie Mustard  00:54:47 
And people say, how did you do that? Why did you do that? And the thing was I was desperate. I had lived in poverty and ignorance. And in my mind, I thought if I have affluence, which an education,
that means
I won't have pain. So if if if if if poverty and ignorance meant pain, affluence and education would mean no pain. So it drove me to this extraordinary
overcoming of my life. And I remember
arriving to the one in school of economics
at twenty one or twenty years old, you know, twenty one years old Man.
And thinking, finally, I would be I was away from pain, and I was around, you know, the some of the most smartest people in the world
And when I got there, they had they were just as messed up and maybe had more problems
than the people in the neighborhoods where I grew up.
And so my whole premise fell apart, Laura Lee, because
I thought, well, at least we had a reason to have these problems. We're dealing with, you know, reality every day in terms of aspects of survival. These guys are just have out everything that you can imagine, but they have the same
anomalies and problems. And and so I was kind of disheartened and deflated because it didn't solve my problems.
I didn't understand
why
everyone experiences
this these aspects of existence
until I went through this procedure twenty years later, twenty five years later.
Okay?
But
So, you know, one thing that kind of got me on on this project also was
three and a half years ago, doctor Lipbob teamed up with a private equity firm Sterling Partners and and Chicago.
They are a multimillion dollar private equity firm to open up clinics all over the United States, which is called the Stella Center. And one thing I would say is the only place that has
doctor Lipob's, what I would call, the Stella protocols. Doctor Lipob is the chief medical officer there. Is the Stella center. There's thirty five of them in the United States. If you don't go to a Stella center, you're not getting this. Okay?
But without them, I would have never chosen to do a book because why promote a book to the world if it's not available to everyone?
Right? But back to this conversation.

Lorilee Binstock  00:57:03 
That's what I was gonna ask.

Jamie Mustard  00:57:05 
Yeah. But let me tell you about this conversation with Daniel Amon, and then I'll shut up and open and let your your questions.
So so doctor one day, doctor Faber said to me, we and I become friends. He'd written a book called Escape, rehabilitate your brain and stay on the legal system that kind of really where he where they were
able to rehabilitate people's brains that had been through addicts, and I was really impressed by the data science in that book.
And so one day, he starts insisting that Daniel, Eamon and I have to have a phone call. Right? So
So he he forces Daniel Amon and I onto a Zoom call.
I was excited about it because I get to meet, you know, the great Daniel Amon. I think Daniel Lima did not wanna be there.

Lorilee Binstock  00:57:47 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  00:57:48 
He was like, what am I doing on a call with this guy? And so what I did for the first four it was about an hour and a half call. What I did the first forty five minutes of that call was just asked Daniel questions. Why this? Why that? You know, just was curious.
And I think after about forty five minutes later,
And, you know, he said, how can I help you? Jamie, what do you want for me? And I said, listen. You're the one that's been leading the charge for the last thirty years saying, that mental
issues or brain health issues, that they're biological.
He knew nothing about the this aspect of the sympathetic nervous system, the SDB. I wouldn't say nothing, but it was not something he'd been investigating. He was mostly dealing
with brain toxicity
and TBI.

Lorilee Binstock  00:58:30 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:58:31 
And I said, listen. You're the one that's been leading this charge.
So
if I'm right and this is an a major part of the mechanism, a,
then you just you need to be a part of it.
You know, you're the one that you're the first person through the gate taking all the hits. Saying this stuff is biological. This is a major part of the equation.
You I think that it makes total sense that you're a part of this.
And so he this is forty five minutes in. I can kinda see him relax, and he says, hold on.
And he starts googling right in front of me thoroughly.
And I I we're I'm staring at him through the Zoom, and his kinda mouth comes, falls open, and he goes,
and I said, what?
And he said, hey. There is a very credible
study here that says that this is seventy percent
effective in the permanent relief of most ex post traumatic stress symptoms.
And I said, whoa. Whoa. Whoa, Daniel? And then and he said,
And I said, well, Daniel, that's an old study with the it's gotta be a ten year old paper with the recent modifications of the dual injection in the right and left side. It's at eighty five to ninety percent.

Lorilee Binstock  00:59:34 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  00:59:42 
And Daniel Lehman looks at me through the Zoom and says,
Jamie,
you don't understand.
At seventy percent, this is no surprise winning work. I'll help you.

Lorilee Binstock  00:59:56 
Wow.

Jamie Mustard  00:59:57 
Yeah. And then he's been a massive partner for me.
You know, I sent my first awarded people that I sent to Chicago because they were doing it wrong at Womac,
was I a private jet company donated a plane to send thirteen of my special forces operators,
to
Fort Bragg, or no, to to Chicago.
I scan their brains and name in clinic in Chicago, do this procedure on them over two days, scan their brains again less than forty eight hours later, and Amy. So Amy's been a massive
supporter
partner for me. I could not have done this book without him.

Lorilee Binstock  01:00:29 
Wow. Amazing.
Amazing.
So
Is this procedure covered by insurance by any chance?

Jamie Mustard  01:00:37 
It isn't, but it's actually a not a very expensive procedure compared to the cost of talk therapy, the cost of all the other things that you could be doing out there. Compared to hyperbaric.
You can there's a it's typically I think it's probably in the two to three thousand dollar range.
But you don't have but it but then but the amount of gain
or I don't know if I wanna use that word, but the amount of

Lorilee Binstock  01:01:00 
Benefit. Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  01:01:01 
benefit,
change, relief, comfort
is kind of hard to
It's it's it's too unbelievable. You know, it's it's
it's it's I mean, it's it's it's like it's you just I was nervous to do it, Lolly, because I'm an artist, and I thought if my angst goes away, will I be able to create?

Lorilee Binstock  01:01:23 
Oh, yes. That's a very yeah. That's a very legitimate concern as an artist.

Jamie Mustard  01:01:27 
Yeah. But the yeah. But the thing is, like you know, think about it like but here's what actually happened. That was my concern. But here's what happened. If you're stuck in fight or flight and you think there's a tiger every second of the day, you're not gonna be able to experience emotion. You're not gonna cry during a movie,
or have lovely moments with people. If you feel like a tiger is about to eat you all the time, you're concerned with a tiger. These mere nerves in your neck are lying to your brain.
So when that when that went away and I was no longer in fire flight,
I was ex my joy
My ability to experience emotion was just freed,
and it made me a far better artist.

Lorilee Binstock  01:02:05 
Wow.
Well, I you know, I'm just I am bothered by the fact that there's so many effective treatments I feel like that are out there. And this being a

Jamie Mustard  01:02:06 
Yep.

Lorilee Binstock  01:02:15 
a huge one
that insurance doesn't cover, but they'll they cover talk therapy for twenty, thirty years.
Makes you wonder.
But, yes, this is is this something that anyone's, like, lobbying for for for insurance to say, hey. This is
mental health is a huge problem,
you know, in our country and worldwide. You know, this is something that that should be covered for for
the majority of people who probably need it the most are probably the ones that who wouldn't be able to spend
you know, two thousand, three thousand dollars on it. You know, this this is this is this is my concern with psychedelic work or I mean, I'm ketamine is not my my
one of the things that I advocate for, but, I mean, you know, the other stuff is illegal. But once it does become legal, you know, the insurance is is probably not going to cover it, especially immediately, and they're not even covering ketamine, which is legal.
So is this something that, you know,
somebody is is mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  01:03:14 
Oh, okay. It's a great question. It's a great question. And I will say that I'm a massive fan of ketamine.
Okay?
And the reason I'm a fan of ketamine is because of how it works. What you know, I'm not a fan of the disassociate associative state. I don't think that's how it works. A lot of people would disagree with me. Ketamine,
the way that doctor Lip Bob, if you were here, would describe it,
is
like fertilizer for nerve growth in the brain.

Lorilee Binstock  01:03:41 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  01:03:41 
So a lot of people that have
that are having mental issues
You know, when I was on that call with Daniel, I kept using the term mental illness or something. He looked at me really sour one time, and he said, please. Don't use that term. Please stop.
And I said, why? What's wrong with it? He goes, well, it's not true. It's not no one has that.
I said, well, it's stigmatizing,
and it's inhumane, and it's not true. And I said, well, we what what do you use? And he said brain health issues. Let's just call it brain health issues.

Lorilee Binstock  01:04:15 
That's legit. Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  01:04:16 
Yeah. So so, you know, Nathaniel's been scanning brains
since nineteen eighty nine. His whole thing was when he started and he was a considered, you know, an out outsider for a long time and had a opposed, you know, even a quack. As the brain science has come in the last ten years, he's been hailed as a genius and hero.
Okay? And
but, basically, his view was, you know, if your arm hurts and I'm gonna get to the insurance, thing. I just wanna give this kind of entry to it. If your arm hurts or your leg hurts, you x-ray it. Somebody acts crazy, and you know one's looking at people's brains when they act crazy, he thought that made no sense. And that's why in nineteen eighty nine, over thirty years ago, he started scanning brains. In the last thirty years, it's made him the most famous psychiatrist in America that probably drugs people the least. His thing on drugs on on
on psychotropics
is when you use a psychotropic, which can be effective to give somebody relief,
you're creating a problem to solve a problem. The psychotropic
changes your brain so that you need it. So now you have two problems.
That he thinks you know, so
But
so he's got a massive dataset of what of what
of
two almost two hundred thousand brain scans. So one of the things that we know is we know that alcohol ravages the brain
in terms of blood flow and other toxicities. With

Lorilee Binstock  01:05:38 
Right.

Jamie Mustard  01:05:40 
THC is even worse.
So we freed up marijuana. It's legal in the state of Oregon where I live, but
it actually ravages the brain and creates all sorts of
mental
problems in terms of this the anxiety,
and
and then you need it just to feel normal, and you're destroying your brain.
Okay?
So all I'm interested in is the data science. But back to this insurance question,
right now, this NYU study is being done. The army's been studying for years. So there's lots of incredible studies. There's one sixty minutes. There was a sixty minutes episode five, ten years ago that talked about the army study.
But the right now, the the the
there's a a study being done in FMRI
or an FMRI study being done in NYU that makes this unequivocally
undeniable.
So I don't think we're far away from the insurance companies approving this. Also, the the doctor is connected to a nonprofit charity.
Called Race PTSD
now,
and they're paying for treatment for a phenomenal amount of people. So you can apply to to that. But what I would say is,
you know, get the invisible machine book, understand that a huge part of the book is explaining how this relates to all the other incredible therapeutics out there. I believe psilocybin works. We don't have a lot of data on the long term effects of it. But with with the DSR,
there's no down there I don't wanna say there's no real downside. You get all of the gain. You get it instantly.
And you don't have to worry about
you know, I've had people tell me they do psilocybin and they have a really bad experience on what psychological or same thing with ketamine, which I'm a fan of. So this is all the upside with none of the downside,
and you yeah, I had a doctor one time, a military doctor that was telling me that,
you know, that there you know, this wasn't the only treatment, and I was overselling it and blah blah blah blah blah blah.
And at Fort Bragg, and I and I said to her, okay.
Let me ask you a question.
Say somebody was in real trouble, and they weren't feeling well. And they can and then you have every
modality at what your disposal to give them. What should they do first?
And she said,
well, they should do the DSR first
because then we that they would get so far in so little time with no downside,
that it would it makes everything else more effective. So what we're finding is that people that reset the It's the difference between physical therapy and a broken leg,
Laura Lee.
You physical therapy is gonna be far more effective if you reset the leg. You wouldn't do physical therapy over a broken mic. So you're gonna find that if you do psilocybin,
where you do hyperbaric,
where you do talk therapy,
These things go exponentially
faster and better and have more far more efficacy if you do a d s DSR first.
The my most there's a again, all of this is parsed apart in the book, the Invisalign.
The Temple of that book is a guy named Trevor Beenan,
who is
a guy that I was afraid of for about a year, who's now one of my best friends, and I was afraid of him.
I was afraid of him because I interviewed him at Fort Bragg.
He is a guy that was molested by a stepfather for eight years from eight to sixteen. The guy went to jail.
He shot up medical heroin in Afghanistan.
He killed people. He's seen people killed. And for thirty years, he was homicidal towards a stepfather in suicidal. The only thing keeping him alive
was
his wife and his children.
This guy just hit just wanted to die. And so when I met him, I interviewed him for three hours of Fort Bragg, was the hardest interview I ever did. He started calling me wanting to talk, and I did not want that. I didn't want he wanted to send me stuff. I didn't want him having my address. I was terrified of this guy when I got back to Portland after that trip before Greg.
The you the military does not want special forces doesn't want crazy special operators out there. So there's they get more resources than regular army. They they had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, trying to
giving Trevor, everything you could possibly reimagine, e m d r, every therapy, the the greenberry foundation,
the military would pay for him to get better. Nothing worked. He was suicidal
and homicidal towards his stepfather.
After that interview, it took me six months to get her to Chicago,
That was eighteen months ago, Trevor's just gone back to being a person. And

Lorilee Binstock  01:10:15 
No. Wow.

Jamie Mustard  01:10:17 
and the and, you know, and and what's and and, you know, you you would never know there's anything wrong with him. He looks like a guy that would be playing he he looks like an actor that would play a special forces hero in a movie.
He's just a good looking white guy. You know? But he was beating him the Latin kings at eleven

Lorilee Binstock  01:10:33 
Yeah.

Jamie Mustard  01:10:35 
and grew up in poverty outside of Chicago, but you would never know it from looking at him.
And so that so three months ago, he's doing ten in Portland,
He came to addition for Ted in Portland a few months ago, and this guy that I didn't wanna even know before he did the DSR
stayed in my house.

Lorilee Binstock  01:10:55 
Well, wow.

Jamie Mustard  01:10:55 
Yeah. Yeah. So
yeah. So so the so that's how I I the the way I explained in terms of other therapies is set the leg, and then all these other amazing modalities out there will be so much more effective.

Lorilee Binstock  01:11:10 
You really have me.
I'm like, after this conversation, I'm going to be googling where this is this treatment is available because I am extremely
intrigued because
Yes. I've done, you know, the psilocybin,
the MDMA,
and
it has worked wonders for me. I was able to get off of all my SSM our eyes. And
but there, you know, there are moments when I
I I feel like my nervous system just gets goes haywire, you know, after like, four or five months after I've done it. So I'm wondering, like, am I I should I try this DSR
treatment?
And then continue along my IFS therapy and, you know, whatever else that that, you know, I'm doing now.
And, yeah, I'm I'm extremely
intrigued. Where can we find more information about where
this is available?

Jamie Mustard  01:12:02 
Okay. Well well, can can I comment on what you just said about yourself? And then I'll tell you.

Lorilee Binstock  01:12:05 
Yes. Please.

Jamie Mustard  01:12:08 
Listen.
You're
any other thing that you're doing, you're mitigating against it. These things work. Like, yoga works.
We're also not meant to live in artificial cities and virtual environments.
So this system is a very useful system
if they were in a tiger infested jungle, being stuck in fight or fight is actually very good. We actually it makes sense.
That
trauma is not a disorder. It makes sense that it's a physical injury because we would all have to have an identical response to fire flight or to trauma
with fire flight if we're gonna survive as a species. It doesn't make any sense that it would be a disorder. Okay? We you were of a survival species. We have to have a homogeneous uniform response

Lorilee Binstock  01:12:41 
Mhmm.

Jamie Mustard  01:12:48 
to survival or we don't survive.
K?
But, you know, what you're doing when you do yoga,
psilocybin I've seen wonders with psilocybin. And hyperbaric wonders, but a lot of that is your minute it's mitigation.
Like, you have to do yoga. You have to run every day. Nature is incredible.
You know, we're we're you know, I find, you know, nature helps mitigate against this, but we don't live in most of us don't live in natural environments anymore, so we don't have that mitigator.

Lorilee Binstock  01:13:14 
Right.

Jamie Mustard  01:13:15 
Right?
So
you can kind of reduce it and bring it down through holistic health. But the only way to reset it is to reset it. Okay?
Again,
the the Stella center. Go to I I think it's is it stellar center dot com?

Lorilee Binstock  01:13:33 
I might be able to find it.

Jamie Mustard  01:13:34 
Yeah. Let me

Lorilee Binstock  01:13:35 
Sela center dot com. Yep. You're right.

Jamie Mustard  01:13:37 
yeah. Yeah. Or go to talk yeah. I would also highly recommend

Lorilee Binstock  01:13:38 
Excellent.

Jamie Mustard  01:13:42 
if you're not getting this from Stella Center, I don't work for them.
They don't pay me. K. I'm not a
I just note the only place that has the modern protocols, which I'll call the stellar protocols, is the stellar center.
I if you're not getting this,
if you're not going to sell a center, you're not getting this. That's why I had to send
my first cohort of people two years ago from Fort Bragg from Woamath, the most advanced medical hospital a military hospital in the world, I had to send my guys to Chicago.
So first of all, Larlie, where do you live?

Lorilee Binstock  01:14:16 
I live in Washington, DC.

Jamie Mustard  01:14:18 
Okay. Well, they're

Lorilee Binstock  01:14:20 
There's one in New York, I see.

Jamie Mustard  01:14:20 
I would highly recommend
Yeah. I do go to New York. No. Like like, you you're like, first of all, let's talk offline,
but I I would I want you to go to Chicago and get it from doctor Lipoff.

Lorilee Binstock  01:14:27 
Yes.

Jamie Mustard  01:14:32 
Unequivocally.
Okay? And if you do that, I'll get you a discount. Okay?

Lorilee Binstock  01:14:36 
Well, yes. Well, let's let let's chat after this conversation. She said, yes. That's a very

Jamie Mustard  01:14:39 
Okay. Okay. If you decide, there's pressure.

Lorilee Binstock  01:14:42 
no. I I'm very intrigued. I I'm
trust me. I I mean, from where I was five years ago is just exponentially better. I don't recognize who I was, but I do have these moments where You know? I'm I just tore my ACL. I've just I'm recovering from ACL surgery, and I was single parenting for, like, a week, and my children just the sound of my children's voices up stairs screaming
would, like, send me into, like, this, like,
what is happening? I'm just freaking out over no reason. It's really because and I'm and I imagine myself and I think about Peter Levine's book where I was, like, maybe I'm I feel like a wounded animal
with
the just this this slight sound of, like, danger
or any issues
sends my nervous system, like, off the charts.
And this was over the last week.

Jamie Mustard  01:15:29 
Yeah.
One hundred percent one of the things I hear over and over, and this is true for me,
is, you know, that moment where you just react, that's a physiological response. That is an overactive sympathetic nervous system. That's what went away when I got this. So you get that extra five seconds. You get that extra ten seconds where you're not having a physiological