Two by Two

On January 20th, the online publication The Head and Tale broke the news that two of India's largest payment aggregators and gateways, Razorpay and Cashfree, were severing ties with India's largest payment orchestrator or router, Juspay.Payment gateways are the simplest. They simply facilitate a payment transaction between a merchant's website and a bank. But these days, we have so many ways to pay. Cards, UPI, net banking, wallets, etc. Many payment gateways also aggregate these methods and offer customers and merchants a choice.Hence, they're payment aggregators.Now, most leading gateways are also aggregators. This includes Razorpay, Cashfree, PayU, Paytm*, etc.The most important layer right now, and the topic of today's discussion, is orchestration or routing.Like a conductor in an orchestra, orchestrators sit above payment gateways and payment aggregators and determine who gets to play.What that means is when a customer is trying to do a transaction on a merchant's site, the orchestrator or router assigns it to a particular payment gateway or aggregator, depending on various things like where success rates are high, who's offering competitive rates, etc.That's what happens with large organisations like Flipkart, BigBasket, Swiggy, etc.For instance, you must have seen when you're trying to make a transaction on any of those sites after you enter your card details, you must have seen the Juspay modal, or briefly, the website appear when you're trying to enter your OTP, or it's fetching that.That's what Juspay does.It sits above payment aggregators and gateways, and it kind of plays this conductor role, assigning transactions to where they are most likely to succeed or where they are most competitively priced for the merchant that Juspay is operating with.That’s the topic of today's discussion because Razorpay and Cashfree decided to stop working with Juspay.Now that's very interesting, and it's essentially the trigger to what we’d like to think of as sort of like a much larger war which is going to break out with one set of payment aggregators on one side and the other side another set of payment aggregators, and of course, Juspay.Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar for the discussion are Vimal Kumar, founder of Juspay; Anand Balaji, co-founder of Xflow and former India head for Stripe; and Abhishek Madan, who used to be vice president of Product at Paytm*.Welcome to episode 28 of Two by Two.*Paytm founder Vijay Shekhar Sharma is an investor in The Ken.–Additional reading:Razorpay and Cashfree woke up and chose violenceAdditional listening:Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India–Help us find interesting women guests by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo–This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, do share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

“This is the first time we are discussing what I'd describe as a wicked problem”, says host Rohin Dharmakumar at the beginning of this episode.What's a wicked problem?It's not a bad thing, it's not an evil thing.A wicked problem is a social or cultural problem that's difficult or impossible to solve because of its complex and interconnected nature. They lack clarity in both their aims and solutions, and are subject to real-world constraints which hinder risk-free attempts to find a solution.This definition comes from the space of systems thinking.And the “wicked problem” at the centre of today’s discussion is India's air pollution. More specifically, North India's air pollution problem and, as we zoom down further, Delhi's air pollution problem.India ranks second globally as the most polluted country.Our particulate pollution increased by 67.7% from 1998 to 2021.Because of the PM2.5 pollution particles, which are actually the smallest that are tracked, an average Indian's life is cut short by 5.3 years.And if you live in the north of India, the reduction is close to 12 years.Now, these aren't statistics that most of you people would have heard about.Depending on where you are in India, you think it's either a problem that you have to live with or a problem someone else has to live with.In this episode of Two by Two, we want to really discuss how to think about this problem, how to solve this problem, and how even to begin to define this problem.Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan for the discussion are guests Alok Mittal, co-founder of Indifi; Roshan Shankar, founder and CEO of Saroja Earth; and Mohit Beotra, co-founder of Air Pollution Action Group (A-PAG)Welcome to episode 27 of Two by Two.—Help us find great women guests for Two by Two by filling out this survey - https://theken.typeform.com/to/KH0EOLGo—You can sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Thomas Fenn, Co-founder of Mahabelly and joint secretary at NRAI, shares his expertise on the fierce competition among food delivery giants like Zomato and Swiggy. The rise of 10-minute delivery options, sparked by Zepto’s entry, has reshaped the market. Fenn discusses the impact of these rapid services, exploring how they challenge traditional restaurant operations and alter consumer expectations. He delves into the complexities of delivering food quickly and the tension this creates between platforms and restaurant partners.

Business schools are among the most coveted higher educational institutions. Students go through some of the most competitive exams and pay significant fees because they hope that at the end of their degree, they will get a great job.Yet, the onerous process of finding, soliciting and bringing dozens of companies to campuses each year falls mostly on final-year students, who are part of elected/selected placement committees.For as long as we can remember, these committees have always been accused of bias, arrogance and power play by other students.Yet, the fact also remains that those on the placement committees sacrifice a significant part of their education and grades in order to run a great job-matching process for their entire batch.Should they, though?In the US, for instance, most leading B-schools have their professional teams that run the entire campus hiring process instead of students. Finding quality jobs for hundreds of students each year is a full-time job.In India, too, many colleges are gradually coming around to the same POV.IIM Kozhikode has transitioned the process from students to faculty. This model aims to instil transparency and professionalism in what Vice-Chancellor V Ramgopal Rao calls “a crucial rite of passage marking the end of academic life.”BITS Pilani has adopted a system where HR professionals employed by the institute handle placements.IIT Bombay set up a committee under a senior computer science faculty professor, Uday Khedkar, with one of its aims being “setting up a clean and transparent placement process system”. Sources at IIT-B said the panel was set up after students brought to light instances of the biases some faced and how this had hampered their careers.Our guest for the episode is Professor Varun Nagaraj, Dean and Professor of Information Management & Analytics at S P Jain Institute of Management and Research (SPJIMR), Mumbai. He holds a Ph.D. in Management: Designing Sustainable Systems from Case Western Reserve University’s Weatherhead School of Management. He also holds an MBA from Boston University, an MS in Computer Engineering from North Carolina State University, and a B.Tech in Electrical Engineering from IIT, Bombay. His career spanning over three decades in digital products reflects his passion for product management, development, and innovation.Over the course of the discussion, the professor and hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan discuss how placements have evolved since their MBA days, their misgivings about the current system, and what institutes have to get better at.Perhaps the larger question is, how should we think about matching employers and graduates? Is a compressed “placements” process the best way?Welcome to episode 25 of Two by Two.—Additional reading:Bias, lack of transparency trips job hunts in premier schoolsWhy are IIT placements failing to deliver jobs? Former IIT Director explainsShiv Shivakumar's LinkedIn post —This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with like-minded individuals who would be interested in listening to the episode. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com

Amitabh Saran, the innovative founder and CEO of Altigreen Propulsion Labs, teams up with Awadhesh Jha, executive director of Glida India, to discuss the current electric vehicle landscape. They explore the surprising decline in EV sales worldwide, including Tesla's first dip in 12 years. The duo addresses the shift in consumer focus from excitement to practical concerns and the impact of infrastructure on adoption. They debate the future of electric versus hybrid vehicles and highlight the critical need for advancements in battery technology and charging solutions.

Srikanth Rajagopalan, CEO of Perfios and former Amazon employee, along with Vishal Karungulam, a professor at the Indian School of Business, discuss Amazon India's challenges. They explore how Amazon has lagged behind competitors like Flipkart and Meesho, particularly in tier-2 and tier-3 markets. The conversation highlights Amazon's potential shift to AWS and the need for a customer-centric approach. They delve into the changing consumer behaviors and strategic adaptations necessary for Amazon to reclaim its competitive edge in India.

It’s time for us to retire the term “Direct-to-Consumer” or D2C. The phrase is, anyway, a bit long in the tooth, having been used since the days of the dot-com boom.D2C used to mean selling directly to end customers, rather than selling through retailers or other middlemen. In theory, selling directly to consumers would allow a company to offer both lower prices and maintain higher margins (since it didn’t have to pay commissions to middlemen), having better products sustained through a faster innovation cycle and the ability to sell products through evolving brand stories instead of merely price.In reality though, few brands are even remotely D2C. For instance, 82% of Boat’s sales come via Amazon and Flipkart, with only 2% selling directly to consumers. The dependence on kiranas, distributors and modern retail has merely been replaced with a dependence on Amazon, Flipkart or Quick Commerce companies.Large and “traditional” FMCG companies, which were once acquirers of D2C startups, have sobered up. Their acquisitions haven’t really scaled up well, even as they’ve figured out how to compete with D2Cs. As a result, the acquisition premium for D2C startups has plummeted from the peak during the post-pandemic days. In some cases even a 50% discount from the peak isn’t leading to deals.In terms of categories, electronics has scale, but profits have plummeted. In skincare, there is also a downward spiral of competition and price pressure. A good example is Mamaearth, which is now paying the price on the stock markets.In terms of competition, the likes of Meesho, Fire-Boltt, Boult, Noise etc., are pushing prices dramatically lower. What is a differentiating factor? It’s hard to say right now. The entire category looks like a turnstile with a 2-3 year cycle.What is the way out? What should modern brands do to build lasting and sustainable brands? How should they cultivate consumer loyalty and connections? What should they even be called?Welcome to episode 22 of Two by Two.In this episode, hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by Deepak Shahdadpuri, managing director and founder of DSG Consumer Partners–India and Southeast Asia’s first consumer-focused venture capital fund. We also had Ajai Thandi, co-founder of Sleepy Owl Coffee, and Seetharaman G, deputy editor at The Ken and resident expert on all things retail, joining the discussion.There is also a free Two by Two newsletter. You can sign up for it here.——Additional reading:Boat, Noise unleashed cheap smartwatches on India. Rivals hurt them with dirt-cheap onesMamaearth sold investors on its FMCG dreams. Consumers had other plansBrands once desperate for quick commerce now have a tiger by the tail——This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN did the mixing and mastering for this episode.Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com and tell us what you thought of the episode.

Sumanth Raghavendra, CEO and co-founder of Presentations.AI, and Sidu Ponnappa, CEO of Realfast.ai, discuss the seismic shifts AI is causing in the SaaS industry. They explore how AI can transform customer engagement and support, moving from basic chatbots to advanced, nuanced interactions. The guests emphasize the urgent need for Indian SaaS companies to adapt their models to focus on outcome-based pricing instead of feature lists. They also touch on the challenges of integrating SaaS into traditional industries and the importance of data as a critical resource.

Fintech lending was supposed to be the bridge that would enable entrepreneurs, small businesses and even individuals across the country to get access to much-needed credit to build businesses. For millions of small and medium businesses, and even individuals seeking a personal loan, who’d otherwise not qualify for them (usually unsecured ones) from banks, these new-age financial institutions were the great hope and sources of credit.Then in October this year, the RBI, like it usually seems to do these days, suddenly swept in and took action. It halted the loan disbursement activities of four NBFCs: Asirvad Micro Finance Limited, Arohan Financial Services Limited, DMI Finance Private Limited, and Navi Finserv Limited.  In fact, between the time we recorded this episode to when we released it, the RBI had lifted restrictions from one of these companies - Navi Finserv. But why did the RBI do this?Here are some hints as to why. Here are two quotes from the RBI about why they did this:“Deviations were also observed in respect of Income Recognition & Asset Classification norms, resulting in evergreening of loans, conduct of gold loan portfolio, mandated disclosure requirements on interest rates and fees, outsourcing of core financial services, etc.”And here’s the most interesting one: “...unfair and usurious practices continued to be seen during the course of onsite examinations as well as from the data collected and analysed offsite”That’s what the RBI said.But what did it not say?Joining hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan for the discussion are guests Ateesh Tankha and Mithun Sundar. Ateesh Tankha is the founder of Alsowise Content Solutions and a keen observer and critic of the financial services space, and Mithun Sundar is the chief Partner Officer at Microsoft India and a former CEO of Lendingkart.Throughout our conversation, both Mithun and Ateesh took the time to explain how digital lending works, why private banks are hesitant to enter the ring and play the game themselves, what’s up with the sky-high interest rates charged on these loans, and, of course, why credit is so important for our country's growth and where we’re falling short.Welcome to episode 20 of Two by Two.Additional reading:RBI had better explain why Navi and DMI Finance are locked out of the loan marketFor fintechs, RBI is the boy who cries wolfYou can also sign up for The Two by Two newsletter here—it's free!This episode was produced by Hari Krishna. Mixing and mastering for this episode is done by Rajiv CN. Write to us about what you thought of the episode at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

Today’s episode of Two by Two is about how the marketing function has been eating itself from the inside.Historically, in companies, marketing has always been about the long term, while a function like sales was about the near term. Marketing owned the customer—what they wanted, their dreams, their fears, and their vanities. It was supposed to tell stories of customers back to the organisation and, in return, tell stories of the company back to customers.Today, in company after company, the marketing function has been getting sliced away, cut into parts and becoming something else altogether.Marketing is eating itself from the inside. To discuss what changed, we had two wonderful guests: one who has been teaching marketing for decades and one who has been practising it for decades. Our first guest is Professor YLR Moorthi, who teaches marketing, brand management, and marketing strategy at IIM Bangalore. These days, Professor Moorthi’s work is focused on the impact of branding in different domains like IT and B2B marketing.Our second guest is Deepali Naair, who is currently the group CMO of CK Birla Group. She’s had a long career in marketing across varied functions as CMO for India and South Asia at IBM, and prior to that, she was CMO at IIFL and Mahindra Holidays.In this episode, the hosts ask two simple questions: Why is marketing dying, and how can we bring it back?Welcome to Two by Two.-This episode of Two by Two was produced by Hari Krishna. Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer, mixed and mastered this episode.New episodes are released every Thursday. So follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and tell us what you think of the show.You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com with your thoughts and suggestions.