Your Parenting Mojo - Respectful, research-based parenting ideas to help kids thrive

  Let's talk problem solving!  Many of us have tried it, but it's so common to get stuck...and to think that the method doesn't work, and then return in exasperation to the methods we'd been using all along.  These often involve coercion, or forcing the child to do something they don't want to do - but what's the alternative?   In this episode we talk with Dr. Ross Greene, who developed the Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (formerly Collaborative Problem Solving) approach in his books The Explosive Child and Raising Human Beings.  I really enjoyed digging into the research for this episode (why do all the papers describing CPS compare its effectiveness to behaviorist-based approaches?) but I ended up really taking one for the team: we didn't have time for all of my questions on the research because I wanted to make sure to address the challenges with problem solving that parents in the free Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group described when I asked them about this topic.   These challenges included: How to problem solve with very young children What to do when the same issue recurs over and over and the solutions we decide on together don't seem to help How to navigate a child not wanting to leave the park when it's time to go How to approach a child who doesn't seem to be able to or refuses to communicate their feelings   Dr. Greene's books Raising Human Beings (Affiliate link) The Explosive Child (Affiliate link)   Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits Do you have a child aged 1 - 10? Are they resisting, ignoring you, and talking back at every request you make? Do you often feel frustrated, annoyed, and even angry with them? Are you desperate for their cooperation - but don't know how to get it? If your children are constantly testing limits, the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.   Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       References Note: Direct links to presentations from conferences can be found on Dr. Greene’s Lives in the Balance website: https://livesinthebalance.org/research Booker, J., & Ollendick, T.H. (2019). Patterns in the parent-child relationship and clinical outcomes in a randomized control trial. Presented at symposium, Collaborative and Proactive Solutions as an alternative to Parent Management Training for youth with oppositional defiant disorder: A comparison of therapeutic models. World Congress of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, Berlin, Germany. Booker, J.A., Capriola-Hall, N.N., Dunsmore, J.C., Greene, R.W., & Ollendick, T.H. (2018). Change in maternal stress for families in treatment for their children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Journal of Child and Family Studies 27, 2552-2561. Booker, J.A., Ollendick, T.H., Dunsmore, J.C., & Greene, R.W. (2016). Perceived parent-child relations, conduct problems, and clinical improvement following the treatment of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Journal of Child & Family Studies 25, 1623-1633. Calam, R. M. (2016). Broadening the focus of parenting interventions with mindfulness and compassion. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice , 23(2), 161–164. Dedousis-Wallace, A., Drysdale, S., Murrihy, R.C., Remond, L., McAloon, J., Greene, R.W., & Ollendick, T.H. (2019). Predictors and moderators of Parent Management Training and Collaborative & Proactive Solutions in the treatment of oppositional defiant disorder in youth. Presented at symposium, Collaborative and Proactive Solutions as an alternative to Parent Management Training for youth with oppositional defiant disorder: A comparison of therapeutic models. World Congress of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, Berlin, Germany. Dunsmore, J.C., Booker, J.A., Ollendick, T.H., & Greene, R.W. (2016). Emotion socialization in the context of risk and psychopathology: Maternal emotion coaching predicts better treatment outcomes for emotionally labile children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Social Development 25(1), 8-26. Fitzgerald, M., London-Johnson, A., & Gallus, K.L. (2020). Intergenerational transmission of trauma and family systems theory: An empirical investigation. Family Therapy 42(3), 406-424. Greene, R., & Winkler, J. (2019). Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (CPS): A review of findings in families, schools, and treatment facilities. Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review 22, 549-561. Greene, R.W. (2016). Raising Human Beings: Creating a collaborative partnership with your child. New York, NY: Scribner. Greene, R.W. (2014). The explosive child: A new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically inflexible children. New York, NY: Harper Paperbacks Greene, R.W., & Doyle, A.E. (1999). Toward a transactional conceptualization of Oppositional Defiant Disorder: Implications for assessment and treatment. Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review 2(3), 129-148. Hart, R. (1992). Children’s participation: From tokenism to citizenship. UNICEF. Retrieved from: https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/childrens_participation.pdf Kroger, J., Martinussen, M., & Marcia, J.E. (2010). Identity status change during adolescence and young adulthood: A meta-analysis. Journal of Adolescence 33, 683-698. Miller-Slough, R.L., Dunsmore, J.C., Ollendick, T.H., & Greene, R.W. (2016). Parent-child synchrony in children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder: Associations with treatment outcomes. Journal of Child and Family Studies 25(6), 1880-1888. Murrihy, R.C., Drysdale, S., Wallace, A., Remond, L., McAloon, J., Greene, R.W., & Ollendick, T.H. (2019). Parent Management Training (PMT) and Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (CPS): A randomized comparison trial for oppositional youth within an Australian population. Presented at symposium, Collaborative and Proactive Solutions as an alternative to Parent Management Training for youth with oppositional defiant disorder: A comparison of therapeutic models. World Congress of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, Berlin, Germany. Tiberio, S.S., Capaldi, D.M., Kerr, D.C.R., Bertrand, M., Pears, K.C., & Owen, L. (2016). Parenting and the development of effortful control from early childhood to early adolescence: A transactional developmental model. Developmental Psychopathology 28(3), 837-853. Zero to Three (2016). Tuning in: National parent survey report. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.zerotothree.org/resources/1425-national-parent-survey-report

My guest for this episode is life coach and reparenting expert Xavier Dagba, who is here to discuss the topic of boundaries in parenting.   We don't tend to learn much about having boundaries when we're young, because our culture teaches that children shouldn't really need or have them (and those of us who are using respectful parenting approaches are working against the tide here).  This then translates to us not knowing how to set boundaries as adults, and feeling 'walked all over' - without fully understanding why, or what to do about it.   We also talk about the limit between boundaries and limits, an important distinction as we interact with our children.   If you need more support in setting limits that your child will respect (and using far fewer of them than you might ever have thought possible - while still having your boundaries respected!), sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Other resources from this episode: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, M.D.Xavier's websiteFollow Xavier on Instagram

I often hear two related ideas about adults' screen usage around children. Sometimes the parent asking the question guiltily confesses to using screens around their children more than they would like, and to using screens as a momentary escape from the demands of parenting. Or the parent asking the question feels that they have found a sense of balance in their own screen usage, but worries about their partner who frequently ignores their child because they're so focused on a screen. In this episode we interview a luminary in the field of research related to children and screen usage: Dr. Jenny Radesky, who is a Developmental Behavioral Pediatrician and Assistant Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School.  Her research interests include the use of mobile technology by parents and young children, and how this relates to child self-regulation and parent-child interaction, and she was the lead author of the 2016 American Academy of Pediatrics policy statement on digital media use in early childhood. We'll learn whether you should be worried about Technoference, and some judgement-free steps you can take to navigate your (or your partner's) screen usage around your child.   Parenting Membership  If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out. Click the banner to learn more. Join the waitlist to get notified when doors reopen in May 2025.       [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:03 Hi, I’m Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you’d like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you’ll join us. Jen 01:00 Hello, everyone. Before we get into the topic of today's new episode, I wanted to let you know about my special Black Friday promotion that I have running now through midnight, Pacific time on Friday, November 27th. For this limited time, I'm offering access to my parenting membership for only $25 a month, and to my supporting your child's learning membership for only $35 a month. Now those of you who know me, and the show might be kind of surprised to hear me running a Black Friday promotion. After all, I get complaints about my left-leaning, anti-capitalist stance all the time. And I thought it would be doubly amusing to talk about this before an episode on technoference, which is when technology like our smartphones interferes with our relationships, because I imagine a number of you are planning technology related purchases for the holidays. Jen 01:43 But I decided to do this for two reasons. Firstly, I know these memberships can help you. I've seen so many parents transform their approach to parenting and get confident in supporting their child's love of learning through the memberships. And secondly, we're in a year when people are looking for holiday gifts that just don't involve bringing more stuff into our homes, and that also can't involve going out to museums and other places that may well be closed. And the parenting membership can really help you go from just hanging on to actually thriving in parenting. And the learning membership will help you make the best use of your time that you're already spending with your children to support their intrinsic love of learning. And third, things are completely aligned with my values. If you miss the Black Friday promotion, they will still be time to enroll at the regular rate starting on December 1st and we'll dive into the content as a group on January 1st. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com to learn more and enroll today. Jen 02:42 Now, whether you take advantage of the Black Friday promotion, or you enroll in December, I believe in helping as many families as possible, and I've tried to make even the regular rates accessible to everyone. I'm confident that anyone who joins and learns the material that I'll make easily accessible for you will support learning and development in their children, find parenting easier, and lay the groundwork for transformational change at home. I want to read you a bit of a message that member Catherine wrote to me about her experience in the parenting membership. So, Catherine says, "the membership has really allowed me to hone in on the doing the concrete actions I want to take and move from the endless swirl of ideas to actually implementing the ones that are based on my values. It's allowed me to stop waiting for perfection when I figured out how to do it all and focus instead on progress. It just really hits the nail on the head of what I need to know. The most recent module we covered on our sense of ourselves as parents has allowed me to perceive so much differently in my day to day life and take in what I'm learning elsewhere in a different way. I've gained so much clarity even in the last week, and noticed a palpable difference in my sense of calm and in my acceptance of my children, my husband, and others with whom I interact in relation to my children." Jen 04:01 So, in my parenting membership, you'll lean on a research-based approach to support your child's development, while making parenting easier. This membership is for children aged around 18 months through the end of elementary school, regardless of where you are in your parenting journey: from the parent who's just trying to survive to the parent who's looking to the future. Your first year in the parenting membership is now only $25 a month through Black Friday, November 27th. In my supporting your child's learning membership, you'll learn how to best support your child's intrinsic love of learning. Most of us want this for our children, but we don't know how and even more how we interact with our children often actually works against this goal. This membership is for parents with children old enough to ask questions through the end of elementary school and who want to set the stage for a lifetime love of learning. Jen 04:52 Ginelle joined the membership because she wanted to support her children's love of learning, but the only way she knew how to do that was to do what school does. To teach them stuff they needed to know. Through the membership Ginelle has learned that she doesn't have to teach for her child to learn. In fact, some of the most powerful learning happens when we just model for our child. Ginelle found that one simple mindset shift has really made a huge difference in her ability to support her child's learning. She says, "Most notably, I find I'm answering my children's questions in a more open way. Sometimes this is with another question. Other times, it might just be a more vague, open-ended answer. It's a change that sounds so basic and common sense when I think about it now, but I needed that extra bump from the membership to actually make me realize it and apply it." Jen 05:41 Special Black Friday pricing for my supporting your child's learning membership is now only $35 a month through midnight Pacific on Black Friday, which is November 27th, and we get started on January 1st. Both of the memberships include all of the information that you need, and none of the fluff that you don't to achieve the easy joy-filled family life that you worked so hard for, but which may seem so out of reach right now. And both memberships include support and community so you can make that next tiny step that you need to take to help you reach your goals. Go to YourParentingMojo.com today to take advantage of these special Black Friday offers the parenting membership for only $25 a month, and the supporting your child's learning membership for only $35 a month. Support your child's learning and development while making parenting easier, perhaps the best gift you could give to your family this holiday season. Thanks again for listening. I hope the rest of your year is filled with joy and activities that are truly meaningful in your life. Jen 06:42 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. I've had our topic today on my mind for a while and over the last few months I think it's become more relevant than it ever has been before. And the topic we're going to talk about today is technoference and that's the idea that technology, and specifically mobile phones, interferes with relationships that we have with other people. It can interfere with relationships of all kinds and your might first rest on your partner, and how you perceive your partner's phone use interfering with your relationship, and we'll certainly touch on that. But our primary focus for today will be on how our phones interfere with our relationships with our children. We'll learn how concerned we should really be about this and what we should try and do to balance our own needs for connectedness with others and our children's need for connectedness with us. Jen 07:33 And so here to discuss this today with us is Dr. Jenny Radesky. Dr. Radesky is a developmental behavioral pediatrician and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School. Dr. Radesky obtained her MD from Harvard Medical School. Conducted her pediatrics residency at the University of Washington, and then a fellowship in developmental behavioral pediatrics at Boston University. She's board certified in pediatrics and developmental behavioral pediatrics. Her research interests include the use of mobile technology by parents and young children, and how this relates to child self-regulation and parent child interaction. She was the lead author of the 2016 American Academy of pediatrics policy statement on digital media use in early childhood. Jen 08:15 Welcome, Dr. Radesky. Dr. Radesky 08:16 Hi, thanks so much for having me. Jen 08:19 Okay, so let's start kind of where we often do when we're coming to a topic like this, which is with some definitions and terminology. And I actually learned a new word while I was researching this episode, which is fubbing. So, I'm wondering, can you help us understand what is technoference? What is fubbing? Is it the same thing? Or is it different? Dr. Radesky 08:38 It's pretty similar. I mean, the term fubbing was in the research literature first, as I was starting to try to research how parents phone use influences family dynamics. It was like 2010-2011, and I was in my fellowship, and I was scouring the literature for any prior research on parents and kids and technology. And there wasn't much there was really just this fubbing phenomenon, which was how a mobile phone inserts itself into an interpersonal space and the, you know, the person who is doing the fubbing kind of gets a little bit transported to, you know, another virtual space where they're interacting with someone else, or with other content. And then the fubbee gets, you know, often the research is showing they're frustrated. And this term started even when mobile phones were just little dumb phones, you know, with texting capabilities. And the mobile communications research was really just interested in, now we could take these devices everywhere, you know, they were focused on using technology on mass transit, or at mealtimes, or during other times that normally had a bit of a boundary around it when it came to technologies. Dr. Radesky 09:53 So technoference was a term developed by my co-author and collaborator Brandon McDaniel. He's a psychologist Who's that Parkview Research Center in Indiana. So, he gets the credit for that term. But he coined that term in trying to capture a research measure that's not just about how much is the parent using technology or how much is the child using technology, but what's happening with the relationship? And so, it became a questionnaire asking parents about on a typical day, you know, how many devices are you using when you're interacting with your child? Jen 10:27 Yeah. And so, what I found was myself, it was kind of thinking about technoference in terms of the relationship. And then I just wanted to find fubbing, it's this portmanteau of phone and snubbing stuck together. But I found the idea of the fubber and the fubbee to be useful to distinguish who's on which end of that relationship as well. Dr. Radesky 10:49 Yeah, and I think there's been some interesting ethnographic research where people have interviewed families to talk about how it feels when your spouse or partner is doing the fubbing, especially when it's just a high stress time in your household, or, you know, someone has to change a diaper, and all of a sudden your partner is absorbed in their phone. And so that, you know, negative connotation that comes with the term snubbing has even more layers, when it comes to parents who are taking care of a young child, which is just such, you know, has many different sources of stress in it to begin. Many different issues around co-parenting and role overload. And I'm interested in early childhood, mostly because it's such a time of building resilience. When kids are facing adversity, or stressful times, like a pandemic, secure relationships are a huge buffer to that stress, or are a way that kids make meaning of stressful times build emotion regulation, you know, so that's why I kind of put my interest in technology that started when I was in Seattle, you know, I was in Seattle in like 2007-2011, which is like, just the time that the iPhone and all these devices were coming out. And I was like, this is fascinating, you know, dynamics are changing so much in our hospital in our offices. Dr. Radesky 12:07 So, I took that with my interest in early childhood relationships. And that's where my first study in the fast-food restaurants came from because I was like, I just want to observe what's happening here. I don't want to come in with preconceived hypotheses or notions about this is bad, this is good. I want to observe, take field notes, like I'm an anthropologist, and just see the patterns of what's happening. And that study wound up getting so much press attention, because there was already this societal kind of concern. Like, every time there's new technologies introduced, the society gets a bit anxious, they feel uncomfortable, they feel disrupted. This has happened extremely rapidly, you know, the way that we've adopted these new technologies is so much faster than the way radio or telephones were adopted. So I was a fellow at the time and getting interviewed, you know, by like The Today Show or Al Jazeera America, and I was like, wow, people are really concerned about this, I need to be aware of the fact that this is a hot topic that's going to polarize that's going to kind of have some implicit judgement in it, too. And that's where my research, you know, on this topic started. Jen 13:16 Okay. So I wonder if we can go into that a little bit, then because I think a lot of the research that had been conducted to that point on fubbing, as it was known until then, was sort of done by asking people, how much do you use your phone? And then the fubbee, how much does it annoy you when somebody uses your phone, when they use their phone in front of you? And your methodology, it was the first time I'd seen it in the literature in this, you know, to be used in this way. And it's been replicated a whole bunch of times in different environments since then. So, can you tell us what did you do? And then what did you see when you're sitting in these restaurants? Dr. Radesky 13:50 Yeah. And it took me a while to land on this study design, actually. So, we thought about creating a survey. And that's what a lot of the fubbing research had been on but I was really worried that a survey would have too much what we call social desirability bias in research, and I also knew that the way that we interact with phones is more intermittent or immersive. I knew there was that cultural overlay of judgement of parents about it. So, I didn't want to, you know, create a survey that could possibly be biased, I wanted objective data. So, objective meaning you can kind of observe it and count it and see what's happening without the parent being self-conscious that they're being judged. Dr. Radesky 14:35 So, we decided on public observations, this has been done to look at how parents discipline their kids in public. It's been done to look at how, you know, people interact with public spaces. And it's considered ethical because we didn't collect any identifiable data. We didn't write down any child names, but the participants didn't know we were watching. It's you know, it's called nonparticipant observation because you go and you blend in with the surroundings. So myself and two research assistants just went to all these fast-food restaurants in Boston, in the spring and summer of 2013. I was like pregnant as can be with my second son. And we were taking field notes. So, we would bring a laptop and some books and act like we were just, you know, drinking an iced coffee and taking field notes. Dr. Radesky 15:24 We tried to go to sampled around different neighborhoods in Boston that had higher income, lower income, you know, Panera to Chipotle a to McDonald's. And we just took these long winded, continuous notes of like, 'Mom picks up phone, it's held about 10 inches from her face, you know, child is eating French fry.' So boring. But when we read these field notes over and over, we were just seeing patterns and themes of behavior that emerged. The biggest theme was absorption, we called it, which is a term that's been used before, but it was really this idea that the parents gaze and attention and it looked like a lot of their cognitive energy was on the phone, not on the child. We were looking a lot, not just for the negative, we were looking for times when parents and kids were sharing media and laughing over it, we saw that like four times, out of 55 families. We saw, you know, about a third of families who used phones were had this absorption where there was very little conversation. Kids would sometimes act up to get their attention. You know, we saw one child who tried to pull his mom's face up from her iPad, and she yelled at him and pushed him away, or another mom that kind of, you know, nudged her or kicked her kids under the table when they were, you know, acting up and trying to get her attention. Dr. Radesky 16:42 And none...

Sibling relationships can be SO HARD!  Sometimes it might seem that we can't leave them alone for even a second before they're at each other's throats, and on top of this we see their struggles and are reminded of the struggles that we had with our own siblings so many years ago.  This can cause us to overreact in the moment, even when we know it's not helping the situation. I discussed some of the reasons behind sibling squabbles a couple of years ago in a conversation with Dr. Susan McHale of Penn State University.  In today's episode we build on this knowledge by discussing some super practical tools to help parents foster positive sibling relationships. In this Sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode I talk with Kira Dorrian and Deana Thayer of Future Focused Parenting, who host the Raising Adults podcast. The parents of seven children between them, including a set of twins and five in a blended family, Kira and Deana know their way around sibling squabbles.   We discuss ways to stop being the person who always has to moderate every disagreement and instead equip our children with the skills they need to find solutions to their own problems.   Jump to highlights: 02:37 Laying the foundation of possible sibling relationships by Daena Thayer. 04:35 Sibling relationship is the first peer relationship by Kira Dorrian. 05:53 How to prepare your kids for sibling rivalry? 12:02 Problem solving with children. 15:28 Teaching your child active listening. 20:01 Doing what’s best, not the easiest. 23:23 Problem solving in school. 25:55 How to deal with conflict as children grow older. 30:52 Social exclusion in schools and the calendar of character traits.

If you’ve been a parent for a while, or maybe even if you haven’t, you probably saw an article on Holding Space making the rounds of online communities a few years ago.  In the article the author, Heather Plett, describes how she and her siblings were able to hold space for their dying mother in her final days because a palliative care nurse held space for them. The article outlined some principles of holding space, and I think it really resonated with a lot of people – possibly because so many of us wish we had been held in that way, and we find ourselves trying to hold space for others in that way without a lot of guidance or support. I kept that article in the back of my mind, and last year I took Heather’s 9-month in-depth course on holding space, and she’s just released a book called The art of holding space: A practice of love, liberation, and leadership.  In this episode we discuss what it means to hold space for others as parents, and how to raise our children to be able to hold space for others.   Links mentioned in the episode The Art of Holding Space: A Practice of Love, Liberation, and Leadership (Affiliate link). The Centre for Holding Space Website [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen  00:03 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us.   Jen  00:59 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. If you've been a parent for a while, or maybe even if you haven't, you probably saw an article on holding space making the rounds of online communities a few years ago. In the article the author Heather Plett describes the death of her mother and how she and her siblings were able to hold space for her mother, because a palliative care nurse was holding space for them. The article outlines some principles of holding space. And I think it really resonated with a lot of people possibly because so many of us wish that we had been held in the way that in that way. And we find ourselves trying to hold space for others in that way without a lot of guidance and support.   Jen  01:38 And so, I kept that article in the back of my mind. And then last year, I took Heather's nine-month in depth course on holding space. And she's just released a book called The Art of Holding Space: A Practice of Love, Liberation and Leadership that she's here with us to discuss today. Welcome, Heather.   Heather  01:52 Thank you, Jen. It's good to be here.   Jen  01:55 And we should mention we were just chatting beforehand. Heather was mentioning her voice is a little raspy today because she's in the middle of recording the book for the audio edition. So that should hopefully be available very soon. And I also just want to mention before we get started that we may mentioned today, some topics that might be difficult for some people to listen to. These could include the topics of suicide and stillbirth. And so, we're not going to delve deeply into them. But if you're in a place where you would find hearing about these topics, any more than I just mentioned them any disturbing to you in any way, you might want to consider listening at a time when you feel well resourced, or perhaps with a friend.   Jen  02:29 So that said, Heather, I wonder if you could start by getting us on the same page, and maybe just helping us to understand what does it mean to hold space for someone?     Heather  02:38 Well, holding space is really what we do when we show up for somebody without trying to control the outcome of whatever they're going through, without placing our judgement on them or projecting our own narrative on them. It's really trying to hold them in a way that is fully supportive of the journey that they're going on and giving them the autonomy to be going through their own journey.   Jen  03:01 Okay, and so you describe that as structure, kind of three nested bowls, right? Can you help us to picture those bowls and what that's made of?   Heather  03:10 Sure. So, I've been evolving this concept of being the bowl for people and being the bowl is really about supporting somebody through their liminal space, I talk a lot about liminal space as the journey they're going through. And they're in transformation, really, between some old story and a new story. And in the middle of that they need some kind of containment, some support, as they kind of deconstruct their old narrative, and get ready to evolve into the new narrative. And so, the bowl really evolved as the primary metaphor kind of for explaining that. And I've developed this three-layered bowl, initially, it was just one layer, but with time, and the more I taught it, I recognize them, some other qualities were needed. So, in the three layers, and the inside is what you're offering to the person, you're holding space, and there's a number of qualities there. And then what guides you your kind of internal guidance system of what's guiding how you hold space. And then what supports you is the outer layer of the bowl.   Jen  04:10 Okay, and what are some of the really key characteristics of maybe we'll start with the internal layer, and then move to the external layers as we continue the conversation. And so, what are some of those key characteristics of that inner layer?   Heather  04:22 Well, some of those things are compassion and connection is really offering you know, love and compassion to the other person. There's also selective guidance. And I use the qualifier selective in front of some of these quite intentionally because I want to really help people understand that it's, it's not giving them tons of guidance, but it's being using your discernment to pick only the little pieces of guidance that they need. You mentioned the palliative care nurse, for example. And she came with a little bit of guidance to help us understand the process of mum's dying really is what we were supporting. And she just gave us you know, one or two handouts kind of and a little bit of information, she didn't walk in with a whole textbook full of guidance on what to expect when a person's dying because that would have overwhelmed us.   Heather  05:10 And then there's also things like selective nonjudgement. And there's another one where I added the word selective in front of. Initially, I was talking about nonjudgement but then I realized there are times when we do need to use our judgement, we need some discernment. For example, if someone comes to us and tells us they've been breaking the law, well, we need a little bit of judgement to support them and making a wise decision to turn themselves into authorities or make reparations for whatever they've done. So, and that's where we come to kind of the middle layer of the bowl. The middle layer is where we're discernment lies, making those good decisions, and intuition using our intuition to sense what's needed in that moment.   Jen  05:52 Okay. And I was just thinking, as you're talking about the idea of offering some support, but not everything that you know about a subject. I think that's so critical in so many aspects of relationships, and even teaching that I've always remembered one of the most effective lectures I ever attended in my undergrad career was it, it was a guest lecture by someone who was talking about schistosomiasis disease, that's, I remember the basics of it. But it was, you know, passed on to people through a worm infection. And he kind of gave us just the amount that we needed to know. And then the Q&A at the end, it became clear that the depth of his knowledge on this topic was incredible. And he had so deliberately curated exactly what we needed to know and didn't attempt to tell us 'Well, everything I know' about schistosomiasis. And it seems as though that kind of resonates with your experience with the palliative care nurse, and she knew so much.   Heather  06:48 Absolutely   Jen  06:48 And she also knew what you needed.   Heather  06:49 Yeah, very much so. And this is where really, the practice, I talk a lot of in my book, and in my work about learning to hold space for yourself, because when we're in that position of holding space for another person, we have to hold ourselves back, sometimes we have to, you know, soothe ourselves so that we won't project our own stuff on to the other person. And you know, and that requires holding back some of our wisdom, because we may know really, really well we've been through the situation they're in, etc. But that's not what they need at that moment. Because if I dump all this knowledge on them, there's a good chance they'll feel a little bit of shame for not knowing as much as we do, they'll feel that you're superior to them or whatever, it's going to turn into a less helpful situation for that person. So like you say, just offering and even sometimes asking what they need, like telling them I do you know, I have some experience in this, would you like to hear from my experience, or just holding back and letting them have their emotional experience first and then saying, you know, once you're ready for it, let's talk a little bit more, I have a few things I'd love to share with you.   Heather  07:58 So, it's using that quality of discernment and caution around not coming in with a dump truck full of knowledge and dumping it on.   Jen  08:06 Right. And so, I want to get back to something that you mentioned very early on in that definition. And that's the concept of liminal space, which is really central to this. Can you just tease apart a little bit? What is liminal space? And what kinds of situations is that refer to?   Heather  08:23 Yeah, so liminal space, it comes from anthropology and in anthropology, there's a term "Limin" which means the space in between. And really what they, the way they started using this term, and defining it was when they were researching cultures, where they would have rituals around some transition points in a person's life. For example, if somebody was coming of age, a young person was emerging into adulthood, they were researching these rituals at these transition points. And notice the threshold ritual was really important part of the ritual was the space between the old story and the new story. So it wasn't just a crossing directly to the new story, that the ritual would include them going into the woods for a vision quest, for example, or going away for some silent time or there was something that marks that time, because there really is this space of emptiness in between what once was and what will be. And the metaphor that I've really adopted for this is the process of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly, because in between, it doesn't go directly from caterpillar to butterfly, it has to go through this chrysalis stage, which is a really, it deconstructs into this messy, this gel apparently inside the chrysalis. And that's kind of reminiscent of what we do when we are transitioning and that it's very vast what this can imply to. It could be when your children are moving away from home or it could be when you're giving birth or changing a job or getting a divorce or there's so many different liminal spaces. I think right now we're kind of globally in this liminal space that the pandemic has kind of thrust on us. We're in between, you know, what we used to know as reality and what we don't yet know and understand.     Jen  10:13 Yeah. And just the breadth of the kinds of circumstances you just described. I mean, this is something that's prevalent throughout our lives. And I was really surprised to see that you quoted in the book and surprised and interested, I guess, that you quoted Franciscan friar and author Richard Rohr, and he described liminal space, I'm going to read his quote, "When you've left the tried and true, but have not yet been able to replace it with anything else. It's when you are finally out of the way. It's when you are between your old comfort zone and any possible new answer. It is no fun." And it's that last part, it is no fun. I was so struck by that because change is the one constant thing in our lives. It's the only thing that we can be sure of. And yet we get so hung up on this search for stability in the search for holding things comfortable and stable. And it's just impossible to do. And I'm wondering, why haven't we developed better skills for dealing with liminal spaces? And I guess implicit in that is the question, why do so many of us learn about this concept through your viral blog posts? And not because this is something that is just handed down to us as a part of our culture?   Heather  11:23 That's a really good question. And I wish I knew a succinct answer for it. I think there's a lot of layers, I think that there's this human nature to just want things cleaned up and not messy. And so, we look for the cleaned-up version of our lives we've created it's really cultural, though, too, especially in Western cultures, I find. I've travelled a fair bit in more developing countries where they were their messiness upfront. Like they don't hide it the way that we do. But we've developed this cultural value around perfectionism around you know, not showing our messes. We don't invite people into our homes when they're messy, we clean up our front yards, I was wrestling this weekend, for example, with my environmentalist daughter wants me to leave the leaves on the grass because it's more environmentally friendly. But I'm noticing my next two neighbors have both cleaned theirs, raked theirs clean...   Jen  12:17 Oh, cause the line.   Heather  12:19 Exactly, I'm wrestling with being the messy yard. And this is the cultural value that we have about being, you know, showing our best front. And I think there's many layers to that, I think some of it is our capitalist culture, we can always buy more comfort, we can always buy more ease, we can buy things to replace the broken things in our lives. And, you know, to some degree, capitalism in the marketing system around it has helped foster that in our culture, because we always need to buy more to replace things and to fill our void, etc. We're not supposed to have uncomfortable lives, we're supposed to buy the newest and most comfortable and, you know, etc. thing and so. So, there's so many layers of complexity. And when I think about even in our classrooms in our school, like, when our kids are in high school, we're pressuring them, what are they going to be when they grow up?   Jen  13:12 In high school? My daughter is getting questions and she's six.   Heather  13:16 They're supposed to have their lives planned out for them. Yeah, like, yeah, it's really kind of ridiculous that we're not talking to them at that stage, about the complexities of life and about how they're going to have to learn to be resilient and weather the storms, and it's not just going to be an easy path to some magical career and this, you know, happy family.   Jen  13:38 Yeah. And it just a couple of points to pull out further and what you said, I'm just thinking of funerals in other countries where, I mean, people are just exposing the rawness of their soul. And funerals here in western countries. I mean, it's very buttoned up and I might escape and maybe there would be a little bit of crying, but you got to keep it. You got to keep that locked down, right?   Heather  14:02 Yeah, no. And we, with my parents have passed, and we tried to do things a little bit counterculturally, actually. And you refer to the palliative care nurse who was there supporting us with mom dying. And one of the things she said, for example, is that you can keep your mom's body in the home as long as you want. You don't have to call the funeral home right away. And it's funny, but that was a surprise to us. Like we just had this assumption that you got to clean up the body right away. And we've built those kinds of, and so we didn't call right away. We kept her body there and let her like her sister and significant family members come and sit with her before we called the funeral home and also with my dad, when he passed, my brother really wanted to be the one to cover the coffin with the dirt shoveled the dirt onto the coffin. And for the rest of us, it felt, oh, that's not something the family should be doing. You know, there's this just this weird cultural, and yet we chose to do it and it turned out to be really, really meaningful practice as a family to do this. So, yeah, we have to mess with convention sometimes to be in the mess of the complexity of life.   Jen  15:10 Yeah. And what you said about your mom and you don't have to call a funeral home right away reminded me of when my daughter was born. And you know, the accepted way is okay, immediately after she's born, she gets whisked away and weighed and checks and all the rest of it. And it was the doula that we hired that said, you know what, you don't have to do that you can request some time before that is done. And so, we did that. And that was such a special memory to me of that period of time when I mean, that's an incredibly profound liminal space in many women's lives.   Heather  15:39 Yeah.   Jen  15:41 And then just, we've talked a little bit about death and I also want to make the point that liminal spaces can happen with changes that we might traditionally think to be positive as well like a new job that you've hoped for over a long period of time. And maybe it puts you in a different role related to people in a different way. And that changes how they see you and how you see them and what you're doing. And it seems as though that's a...

  Parenting brings unconditional love and fulfillment, but what happens when those feelings mix with frustration, exhaustion, and even regret?   In this episode, I speak with Dr. Sarah LaChance Adams, expert in feminist philosophy and maternal ethics, to explore maternal ambivalence - those complex, conflicting emotions many parents experience but rarely discuss openly. Dr. Adams is the author of Mad mothers, bad mothers, and what a "Good" mother would do: The ethics of ambivalence.   What Is Maternal Ambivalence?   As Dr. LaChance Adams explains, drawing from Adrienne Rich's heartbreaking and beautiful description: "Maternal ambivalence is having extreme emotional conflict in one's feelings towards one's children - dealing with intense love and sometimes intense hate, the needs to be very intimate and close to one's children, but also to have a sense that one needs distance."   This complex experience involves both wanting to be near your child and sometimes feeling an urgent need to "get as far as one can from one's child." What makes maternal ambivalence particularly complicated is that it's not just about feelings toward a separate being. There's also a profound sense of self-estrangement because mothers often feel their children are integral to their own identity. As Dr. LaChance Adams notes, "In this sense of struggle, she's also in a struggle with herself and who she feels she is most intimately and deeply."   This episode builds on our recent conversations with Dr. Moira Mikolajczak on Parental Burnout and with Dr. Susan Pollak on Self-Compassion, exploring how we can love our children dearly while feeling torn between that love and our parental role that often requires putting our own needs aside.   Questions this episode will answer Is it normal to feel love and resentment toward my child at the same time? The podcast breaks down what maternal ambivalence means. It's a back-and-forth feeling between deep love and occasional resentment that many mothers feel but rarely talk about. Dr. LaChance Adams explains why these opposite feelings happen together and why they're a normal part of being a parent. You'll also learn how accepting these feelings might make your relationship with your child stronger.   How do gender, race, and socioeconomic status shape the experience of maternal ambivalence? The episode looks at how maternal ambivalence might be different based on your background. It questions whether this is mainly "a middle-class, white phenomenon." We explore Bell Hooks' view that motherhood wasn't seen as the main obstacle for Black women historically. These mixed feelings may show up differently across racial and economic groups.   How does societal pressure shape maternal ambivalence? The episode explains why our society makes these mixed feelings seem shameful instead of normal. Speaking up about them could change how you parent.   What role do cultural expectations and intensive parenting play in shaping parental guilt?We discuss how society's view of total motherly devotion can become "twisted" and hurt both mothers and children. Modern parenting culture expects mothers to always put their children first, at the cost of their own identity. Listen to understand why you might feel guilty and what you can do about it.   How can parents navigate these conflicting emotions in a healthy way? The episode provides both big-picture and personal strategies for dealing with maternal ambivalence. We build on earlier episodes about parental burnout and self-compassion. Discover practical ways to accept all your parenting feelings without shame. These mixed feelings don't have to create guilt and shame. They can form the foundation of a close connection with your child.   What you’ll learn in this episode Discover why maternal ambivalence creates an emotional tug-of-war that goes beyond occasional frustration Maternal ambivalence isn't just feeling tired or annoyed sometimes—it's that deep emotional conflict where you love your child intensely while simultaneously feeling overwhelmed or even resentful. Dr. LaChance Adams explains this powerful contradiction many mothers experience, where you might desperately want your child's bedtime to arrive while also missing them terribly once they're asleep. The podcast dives into why these opposing feelings create such inner turmoil for parents and how understanding this tension is the first step toward parenting with greater peace and authenticity.   We unpack the impact of impossible standards on parental identity and self-worth When society expects perfect motherhood—always patient, always present, always fulfilled by caregiving—it creates a crushing weight on parents' mental health. The episode explores how these unrealistic expectations force many mothers to put their needs "on the back burner," leading to a gradual loss of identity. You'll learn how intensive parenting culture undermines parents' confidence, why the undervaluing of caregiving work affects how mothers see themselves, and practical ways to rebuild your sense of self while still being the parent your child needs.   Learn how maternal ambivalence looks different across parents from different backgrounds The podcast examines Bell Hooks' important insight that for Black women historically, "motherhood would not have been named a serious obstacle to our freedom"—unlike how it's often framed in white, middle-class discussions. You'll discover how factors like race, economic status, and cultural background shape how parents experience and express these mixed feelings about parenthood. The episode challenges the one-size-fits-all approach to understanding parental emotions and offers perspectives that may better reflect your own unique experience.   Discover why parents often keep these mixed feelings hidden and how this silence makes things worse. When mothers in online groups admit they're struggling with parenthood, they're often met with judgment instead of support. The podcast explores why this silencing happens and why breaking this silence is actually the solution. You'll learn how shame around maternal ambivalence creates a dangerous cycle that increases parental stress and guilt, and how honest conversations about these normal feelings can create supportive communities where real parenting challenges can be addressed together.   Move past the limiting idea that self-care is just about "being a better parent." The episode challenges the common message that mothers should take care of themselves only so they can be "better parents." Instead, it explores how mothers deserve to maintain their identity and meet their needs simply because they are human beings with inherent worth beyond their parenting role. You'll discover a more empowering approach to balancing your needs with your child's, practical ways to reclaim parts of yourself that parenting has pushed aside, and how this authentic approach actually creates healthier parent-child relationships in the long run.   Dr. LaChance Adams’ books: Mad Mothers, Bad Mothers, and What a ‘Good’ Mother Would Do: The Ethics of Ambivalence The Maternal Tug: Ambivalence, Identity and Agency    Links to resources and ideas discussed in this episode: Nikesha Elise Williams Mierle Laderman Ukeles Hegel’s Dialectic / Speculative Method Martin Heidegger’s concept of Befindlichkeit / “how you find yourself in the world” Maurice Merleau-Ponty   Jump to highlights 05:03 Maternal ambivalence is, having extreme emotional conflict in one’s feelings towards my [one’s] children. Dealing with intense love and sometimes intense hate, the needs to be very intimate and close to one’s children or one’s child, but also to have a sense that one needs to get distance to have strong feelings. 08:34 I’m thinking about Bell Hooks’ work, and she had said, “but had Black women voiced their own views on motherhood, it would not have been named a serious obstacle to our freedom as women, racism, availability of jobs, lack of skills, or education would have been top of the list, but not motherhood.” I’m wondering, is maternal ambivalence a middle-class, White phenomenon? Or do you see it in other places as well? 11:27 If a woman lives in a culture where there’s an intense romanticization of the mother-child relationship, and she feels that she can’t express any kind of conflicted emotion at all. And then when you have these things piling on top of each other, then you start to see it gets more and more and more intensified. The more these things compound, the less a woman is able to reflect on these emotions, think about them, share them get relief, get that kind of distance that the feelings are telling her. 15:41 The idea that maybe, just maybe, this whole guilt thing and the whole ambivalence thing is a product of our culture, where, on one hand, women are required to be these productive citizens who contribute to the capitalist economy, and on the other hand, were supposed to give our all to our child and mother intensively. 18:34 One thing I want to really draw out here is the idea that women ourselves are very often the ones that police this. It’s sort of like patriarchy, it’s not just men saying, well, this is your role, and this is what you’re going to do. Women are just as responsible for the socialization of this idea. 20:54 “How could you say that you don’t love being a mother at every moment?” And I think I mean, you’re already stating the solution, you know, we have these brave women coming forward, saying that they don’t always love it. 29:18 She [Simone de Beauvoir] writes about devotion and the devotion of the mother, and how this can be a very twisted thing and how, oftentimes, mother’s devotion is really something that can be very awful for herself and her child because it can be a replacement for her having anything else in her life. And it can become a sort of twisted obligation for both of them. And, you know, a sort of martyrdom…   References Collins, Patricia Hill. 1993. The meaning of motherhood in Black culture and Black mother–daughter relationships. In Double stitch: Black women write about mothers and daughters, ed. Patricia Bell-Scott, Beverly Guy-Sheftall, Jacqueline Jones Royster, Janet Sims-Wood, Miriam DeCosta-Willis, and Lucie Fultz. New York: Harper Perennial. Gubi, P.M. & Chapman, E. (2019). An exploration of the ways in which feelings of ‘maternal ambivalence affect some women. Crisis and Loss. Retreived from: https://chesterrep.openrepository.com/bitstream/handle/10034/622560/Full%20text%20Maternal%20Ambivalence%20research%20paper.pdf?sequence=3 Henderson, S. (2018). The blurring effect: An exploration of maternal instinct and ambivalence. Unpublished Master of Arts by Research thesis, Kent, UK: University of Kent. Retrieved from: https://kar.kent.ac.uk/66794/1/211The%20Blurring%20Effect%20An%20Exploration%20of%20Maternal%20Instinct%20and%20Ambivalence.pdf Henderson, A., Harmon, S., & Newman, H. (2016). The price mothers pay, even when they are not buying it: Mental health consequence of idealized motherhood. Sex Roles 74, 512-526. hooks, bell. 1990. Homeplace: A site of resistance. In Yearning: Race, gender, and cultural politics. Boston: South End Books. LaChance Adams, S. (2014). Mad mothers, bad mothers, & what a ‘good’ mother would do: The ethics of ambivalence. New York, NY: Columbia University Press. LaCance Adams, S., Cassidy, T., & Hogan, S. (Eds). The maternal tug: Ambivalence, identity, and agency. Branford, ON: Demeter. Newman, H.D., & Henderon, A.C. (2014). The modern mystique: Institutional mediation of hegemonic motherhood. Sociological Inquiry 84(3), 472-491. Rich, A. (1994). Of woman born: Motherhood as an experience and institution. New York, NY: Norton. Takseva, T. (2017). Mother love, maternal ambivalence, and the possibility of empowered mothering. Hypatia 32(1), 152-168.  

In this episode, Dr. Susan Pollak helps us to apply mindfulness skills to our relationships with our children so we can parent in line with our values, rather than just reacting when our children push our buttons. You'll learn: What's the point of mindfulness, and does it matter if we bring our full attention and presence to diaper changes? Why we're so hard on ourselves, even when we always try to be kind to others Some concrete tools to use when you interact with your children TODAY in those moments when it seems like everything is falling apart. Dr. Pollak is a psychologist in private practice in Cambridge, Massachusetts. She is a long-time student of meditation and yoga who has been integrating the practices of meditation into psychotherapy since the 1980s. Dr. Pollak is cofounder and teacher at the Center for mindfulness and Compassion at Harvard Medical School and the Cambridge Health Alliance, and has just stepped down as President of the Institute for Meditation and Psychotherapy, a position which she held since 2010. She also writes regularly for Psychology today on the topic of integrating mindfulness into daily life.   Book mentioned in the episode: Self-Compassion for Parents: Nurture Your Child by Caring for Yourself (Affiliate link). Other episodes related to this topic: Parental Burn-Out No Self, No Problem Helping children to develop compassion Patriarchy is perpetuated through parenting Mindfulness tools with Mindful Mama Hunter Clarke-Fields   Some key points from the interview: (04:08) Many of us, present company included, we're not raised to be kind to ourselves. (10:47) Mindful self-compassion acknowledges that we need to start with mindfulness. (I've been teaching this course for over a decade, and I've seen that) a lot of people just can't start with compassion because it's foreign for most of us to treat ourselves kindly. (53:59) Allow yourself to rest for a moment feeling that you have distance from the storm, some space from the turbulence to recognize that you are not the storm. (paraphrased) (59:03) It's such a common misconception about mindfulness that you have to sit still and not think about anything. And, you know, people are relieved to know that [mindfulness] is not about stopping our thoughts. It's really about finding a different relationship with our thoughts. [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:03 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us. Jen 01:00 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. In this episode, we're going to draw threads together from across a number of recent episodes. Most obviously it picks up on our interview with Dr. Moira Mikolajczak where we discuss parental burnout. After that episode concluded Dr. Mikolajczak and I emailed a bit about tools that could potentially help parents, and the primary one that she found useful was the idea of self-compassion. And that's what we're going to discuss today. This topic also picks up on our conversation with Dr. Chris Niebauer about the stories that our left brain tells us by giving us some concrete strategies on how to do that. And it builds on a conversation we had about three years ago with Dr. Brendan Ozawa-de Silva on the topic of compassion. We also touch on issues related to patriarchy and go deeper into some of the mindfulness tools that Hunter Clark-Fields shared with us recently. Jen 01:50 And here to do all of this with us is Dr. Susan Pollak, who is a psychologist in private practice in Cambridge, Massachusetts. She is a longtime student of meditation and yoga and has been integrating the practices of meditation into psychotherapy since the 1980s. Dr. Pollack is cofounder and teacher at the Center for Mindfulness and Compassion at Harvard Medical School and Cambridge Health Alliance, and has just stepped down as President of the Institute for Meditation and Psychotherapy, a position that she held since 2010. She also writes regularly for Psychology Today on the topic of integrating mindfulness into daily life. Welcome, Dr. Pollack. Dr. Pollak 02:24 Thanks, Jen. It's a pleasure to be with you. Jen 02:28 So, we're going to talk a lot about your book. Because it's on the topic of Self-Compassion for Parents. And one thing that I really liked as I was reading through your book, is the idea that it isn't a manual for self-compassion. It doesn't teach you step by step what self-compassion is, and then how to apply it. I loved what Dr. Chris Germer said in your foreword and he said, I'm going to quote, "The book connects with the direct experience of parenting through detailed examples, personal anecdotes, and elegant exercises to transform parenting struggles through the tools of mindfulness and self-compassion." So that said, we're definitely going to be digging into some more of those things for as we go today, but I'm wondering if we could start by having you help us to understand what is compassion. And from there, what is self-compassion, and also this idea of mindful self-compassion that I know is really important to your work? Dr. Pollak 03:21 Okay, and let me first just respond to your kind words, because my feeling is, there's no recipe for parenting. And I know you're a parent. I am a parent of two kids. And as of just a week ago, a grandmother, Jen 03:39 Congratulations! Dr. Pollak 03:40 Thanks! So, I think it's really important for your listeners to, to realize that one size doesn't fit all. Jen 03:49 Yeah. Dr. Pollak 03:50 You know, I'm not going to be able to give you a recipe for how to be the perfect, compassionate, mindful parent, you know, you have to figure out what works for you, and what works for your kids. Jen 04:07 Yeah. [caption id="attachment_6394" align="aligncenter" width="1024"] Many of us, present company included, we're not raised to be kind to ourselves.[/caption] Dr. Pollak 04:08 So that said, let me jump into just some really workable definitions. And let me tell you, I really don't like psychological jargon. So, let me speak in English. So, one way to understand compassion is to really look at the root of the word, which is Latin, and it means to suffer with. Okay, so that's kind of theoretical, what it means in real life, is to really see somebody and to connect with their pain, or the difficulty they're having. So self-compassion, and this is a pretty radical concept, is learning to be kind to yourself. Again, it's that simple. So many of us, present company included, we're not raised to be kind to ourselves. So, it can feel weird, awkward, foreign, like "What? Be kind to myself? No, no, I have to push myself. I have to drive myself. What are you talking about?" So, for me, that concept of being kind to myself felt foreign. And, again, an easy way to think about it is, when you're having a hard time, think about what you say to yourself. And I don't know if your inner language is like my inner language, but to be very self-disclosing. I used to say, "Oh, Susan, that was stupid." Or "Oh, Susan, you're an idiot." or "Oh, how could you have said that?" You know, "You've really blew that." So, it was this constant soundtrack of criticizing myself. Dr. Pollak 05:56 But think also, what you might say, if a friend told you that for someone you really cared about that she had done, or he had done something similar to what you did. And you probably wouldn't say to your friend, "Oh, John, that was so stupid. I can't imagine you said that. How could you have done that? What were you thinking? What is wrong with you? You are such a loser?" Well, I mean if you said that to a friend, you probably wouldn't have many friends. Okay, so we, we do know how to respond kindly. You would probably say, "Look, John, you know, you're human, we all screw up, you know, everyone is a parent..." Let me just kind of stick to the topic of parenting here. Everyone is a parent has really bad days, you know, that book that I've loved Alexander and that No Good, Terrible, Awful Day. I mean, we as parents have those terrible, no good awful days. But you know how nice it would be. If you could say to yourself, "Jen, that was just a really rough day, we all have it, it happens. You know, don't beat yourself up, that's not going to solve the problem. Let's move on here." Or even better with the child, okay, let's make a repair. You know, let's say sorry, gee, mommy really lost it. Or, you know, I used to say, with my kids, when I was having a hard time, "Oops, mommy hit the roof there." You know, let's take a time out or a time in to repair. Okay, so that's our definition of compassion. Jen 07:47 And actually, if I could pause just there for a second, as you were saying, I wasn't raised with this way of thinking. It made me realize none of us were. And it seems to me is it though it's, I mean, it's coming from this Protestant work ethic, right that if you work hard enough, you will be able to achieve and if you're not working hard enough, that's probably why you're not achieving. And so, the only thing to do is self-flagellate and work harder. Dr. Pollak 08:11 Exactly. And supposedly, I know, you're also interested in culture and cross culture, real issues, supposedly, in other countries. There isn't as much self-loathing and self-flagellation because I remember hearing the story, where the Dalai Lama's translator was asking, translating questions like, Okay, so what are we supposed to do if we hate ourselves? And he'd say, "What?" Jen 08:40 "What do you mean?" Dr. Pollak 08:41 What do you mean, if we hate ourselves, and the translator and the Dalai Lama went back and forth, back and forth. This is how the story is recounted, and he had the hardest time understanding why people would hate themselves, why there was such loathing. But I am with you both in terms of the Protestant work ethic and also patriarchy, like, yes, you know, you have to drive yourself, okay, you can't be lazy, you can't slack off. And I think that's where those, that inner critic comes from, like, Oh, you screwed up, you idiot. What is wrong with you? So anyway, just to touch on the importance with those three definitions. The other thing I want to draw on in terms of compassion, and this, I know you're a research geek as well. So, this will probably interest you. One of the pieces of research when they're looking at in fMRI brain scan of what happens with the brain on compassion is it seems to activate the motor neurons. So, compassion is tied to action. And I remember when I was writing the book, I tried to use this headline saying compassion is a verb, because it's active. And of course, the editor being an editor said, No, it's not. So anyway, so I'd let that go. But if we can think of compassion is active, you know, basically, how can you respond? How can you tune in to what that person might need or what that child might need? Or what you might need in the moment? That is really the essence of what a compassionate and self-compassionate response is. Jen 10:38 Okay. Dr. Pollak 10:39 Now do you still want a definition of mindfulness. Jen 10:42 That would be awesome. Yeah. And is, specifically the mindful self-compassion. Yeah.   [caption id="attachment_6393" align="aligncenter" width="1024"] A lot of people just can't start with compassion. It's foreign, for most of us to treat ourselves kindly.[/caption] Dr. Pollak 10:47 Okay. So, what happened in terms of the mindful self-compassion, and I love to give credit where credit is due. Kristin Neff was really the first researcher to do research on compassion, in 2003, had begun to write a number of essays and articles, framing this new construct that she called self-compassion. My friend and colleague, Chris Grimmer, who wrote the foreword of the book. thought, "Whoa, this is really important." And also, I need this. And, you know, so many, we know, Neil. And they connected and put together this program. And I know you will have references to their books, and the eight-week course and their books on self-compassion. So mindful self-compassion, acknowledges that we need to start with mindfulness. And I've been teaching this course for over a decade, a lot of people just can't start with compassion, again, going back to what I was saying, in that it's foreign, for most of us to treat ourselves kindly. But it seems that if we start with the foundation of mindfulness, then people can be more open to compassion. And in fact, again, some of the research is now saying that one of the secret sauce of mindfulness seems to be this element of accepting, without judgement, warmly kindly accepting. So now let me segue into a definition I like, and this is very hands on. Okay, so again, I don't want it to be abstract. So, the easiest thing to do is just with me, raise your hand, if you like, and just wiggle your fingers. Okay, so mindfulness, very simply, is, knowing what you're doing at the moment. It's nothing, Woo Woo, it's nothing, you know, fanciful, it's nothing weird. It's just present moment awareness, with kindness without judgement. So, you're feeling your hand, you're not saying, "Oh, Jen, You're such an idiot." for you know, wiggling your fingers. Just say, "Okay, I'm sitting here, moving my hand, feeling my hand again, being present in the body." And we'll talk about that as well. without judgement. Jen 13:33 Yeah, so I'm not looking at my hands. And my hands are really big in the picture. Dr. Pollak 13:38 Oh, I don't have a manicure. Either. Something absurd. Jen 13:41 Never had that. But yeah, I've heard Joseph Goldstein explain, you know, what is mindfulness, this big topic, and he says, "Sit and know you're sitting." Dr. Pollak 13:52 Exactly. Exactly. It's that simple. Jen 13:55 Yeah. And and I think I saw in your book, actually a quote from Sharon Salzberg, that I really liked. It said, mindfulness doesn't depend on what is happening, but is about how we are related to what is happening. Dr. Pollak 14:06 Exactly, exactly. Jen 14:08 Yeah. Dr. Pollak 14:08 And I think that really says it all. And a lot of people keep coming back to the fact that it's not the external circumstances. It's really the inner experience of how we are dealing with what's happening to us. And as Joseph, let me just make a link between those two teachers, as Joseph Goldstein would say, what is the attitude in the mind? You know, is there resistance? Is there a version, you know, are you saying, Oh, poor me, or are you saying, Okay, this is what's happening? And he puts it wonderfully again, which is anything can happen to anyone, at any time. Jen 14:58 Mm hmm. Okay, so let's Maybe make this super concrete for parents, you talk in the book about diaper changing. Dr. Pollak 15:06 Yeah. Jen 15:06 Which is a task that most parents have done once or twice. There are some parents who managed to take a different path with it. But the majority of parents are doing a decent number of diaper changes for a period of some years. And you described a mindful diaper change. And anyone who's reading your book and knows anything about resources, infant educators, or RIE, well will read that description and they'll just think, you know, this has so many parallels to the idea of it's called wants something quality, time in RIE. It's the idea that even caregiving tasks, which typically, society trains us to, and we think of ourselves as things, we just need to get through them. And then we can do the fun stuff that the other side, you know, we can play with the baby. But actually, even these caregiving tasks, even if they seem unpleasant to us, they're still opportunities for connection. Can you maybe draw that out a little bit in the way that you see it? Dr. Pollak 16:02 Sure. And I also want to thank you, because as I mentioned, my son, and daughter in law just had a new baby, and I got baby just got back from the hospital recently. And I got an email from him saying, Oh, you know, change seven diapers today. And you sent me a wonderful link that I thought was so moving. And you I'm sure you want to include that in the show notes. Where the writer really talks about respecting the child, Jen 16:35 Gosh, I don't know who it was. Do you remember? Dr. Pollak 16:38 Zachary? Is that...? It was in the email you sent me. I googled it and then sent it to my...

Dr. Paul Hewitt, a Professor in the Department of Psychology, talks about perfectionism in children. He discusses the complex nature of perfectionism, explores its impact on behavior and relationships, and delves into the struggles of perfectionist children. The podcast highlights the importance of understanding a child's underlying pain and seeking professional help to support them.

I've heard from listeners that what they call "The Dark Horse Episode," the interview with Dr. Todd Rose, that this is one of their favorite conversations on the podcast, and for this reason I'm doing something I've never done before: reissuing that episode.  Dr. Rose and I discussed ways to personalize children's learning to help them truly discover and live their full potential - both academically and personally (and even getting rid of that distinction entirely...).   Check out what listeners who subsequently joined the Learning Membership said in our private community before the membership had even officially started:     Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!   Sign up for the FREE You Are Your Child's Best Teacher  workshop when doors reopen.   References Cantor, P., Osher, D., Berg, J., Steyer, L., & Rose, T. (2019). Malleability, plasticity, and individuality: How children learn and develop in context. Applied Developmental Science 23(4), 307-337. Mischel, W. (2004). Toward an integrative science of the person. Annual Review of Psychology 55, 1-22. Osher, D., Cantor, P., Berg, J., Steyer, L., & Rose, T. (2018). Drivers of human development: How relationships and context shape learning and development. Applied Developmental Science, 1-31. Osher, D., Cantor, P., Berg, J., Steyer, L., & Rose, T. (January 2017). Science of learning and development: A synthesis. American Institutes for Research. Downloaded from: https://www.air.org/sites/default/files/downloads/report/Science-of-Learning-and-Development-Synthesis-Osher-January-2017.pdf Rose, T., & Ogas, O. (2018). Dark Horse: Achieving success through the pursuit of fulfillment. New York, NY: HarperCollins. Rose, T., McMahon, G.T., Saxberg, B., & Christensen, U.J. (2018). Learning in the 21st Century: Concepts and tools. Clinical Chemistry 64(10), 1423-1429. Rose, T. (2015). The end of average: How we succeed in a world that values sameness. New York, NY: HarperCollins. Rose, L.T., Rouhani, P., & Fischer, K.W. (2013). The science of the individual. Mind, Brain, and Education 7(3), 152-158.

Ever have a vague sense that your interactions with your child aren't quite aligned with your values...but aren't quite sure what to do about it?   Have you been to a protest and shouted "Black Lives Matter!  Fight the Power!"...and then gone home and forced your child to brush their teeth?   Have you chastised Grandma for 'stealing' kisses from your child because it disrespects their body autonomy...and then pinned them down for a haircut?   You're not alone.  We're in this weird place where we know we want to do things differently than the way we were raised.  But cultural norms are still telling us: we need to be in charge.  (Because if we aren't in charge, who is?)   A conversation with the hosts of Upbringing My guests today, Hannah and Kelty of the Upbringing podcast, see this dissonance more clearly than almost anyone I've met.  In their podcast they explore how we live one way as people (who believe in freedom!  respect!  consent!  empathy!) and another way as parents (timeouts, shame, control, consequences), and how we're unwittingly undermining the very skills and values we hope to promote.   But blaming and shaming helps nobody (not us...and certainly not our children).  By instead approaching the topic with compassion and optimism, we can get out of an us vs. them relationship with our children, and take back our parenting practices from our cultural conditioning, and parent in relationship with our children in a way that's deeply aligned with our values.   Hannah and Kelty describe their RESIST approach (Respect, Empathy, Sync up, Innovate, Summarize, Trust) and also have a new guide to navigating sibling conflict (use discount code MOJO at checkout for 15% off!) on their beautiful website.  If our conversation strikes a chord, I'd definitely encourage you to check out their podcast and weekly Q&As on Instagram.   Parenting Membership  If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out.   Join the waitlist and we'll let you know when enrollment reopens in May 2026. Click the banner to learn more.