Your Parenting Mojo - Respectful, research-based parenting ideas to help kids thrive

In this short ad hoc episode that was originally recorded as a Facebook Live, I discuss ways that my family is working on dismantling both White supremacy and patriarchy (and having a go at capitalism while we're at it!) this Martin Luther King Jr. Day holiday weekend. The best part is that this doesn't have to be heavy work that brings with it a huge sense of guilt. It's about building community that lifts all of us up, and gets us out of the 'stay in my lane' mindset that White supremacy uses to keep us in line. And it also doesn't have to happen only on the holiday itself - this work is just as relevant and important the rest of the year. Prefer to watch rather than listen? Click here to join the free YPM Facebook group and watch the video recording of the episode   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan 00:01 Hello, everyone, it's Jen. And I just wanted to do another live episode as it were in the free Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group because I did one recently for the events after the US Capitol siege. And responding to that, and actually looked at the analytics on it and found that it was one of my most recently downloaded episodes. So, this is sort of just another informal episode. And we'll be back to regular programming next week, but wanted to share some thoughts on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, which is today here in the US. And I think this is actually the special—the first holiday recorded an episode that I've done ever. So it feels kind of cool to be doing it for this particular day for Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. And I wanted to share some thoughts that actually I concepted on a bike ride, which tends to be how these things come about when I have some time to think. And I'm really sort of thinking, “Okay, what is it that parents need to know in this right now? What's important about continuing Dr. King's legacy?” And I talked in the episode from last week about the events in the US Capitol, about the anti-racist work that we're doing, and that is so necessary that has to continue, yes, we have to keep doing that. We also need to do things like learning about the achievements of Black people, both in history and today. And at all that I really enjoy for that is, if you're not watching on Facebook Live, I'm holding up these Black history flashcards. They're published by an organization called Urban intellectuals, which I believe is a Black-owned company. And we've actually been storing them in a little teacup on our dining room table, and my daughter will request that we go through at least one and up to three of them, I draw the line at three because then I don't get to eat dinner at the dinner table every day. And we talk through not just sort of the what are the bullet points on the back of the card that each of these individuals on the cards did.   Jen Lumanlan 01:55 But what does it mean? What does it mean that to say that they were entrepreneurs, trappers, and traders in the 1700s is one of the people that we read about last night was what kind of circumstances came into place to even make that possible when the vast majority of Black people in that period who were over in the Americas were enslaved. What kind of circumstances and personality and situation were involved in this? And so I think that that is really helping us to put some kind of context around. It's not just that there were millions of Black people here in the US, and they were all enslaved, and they were sort of this monolithic entity. But these were individual people who had individual lives and individual concerns, and they made incredibly valued and undervalued contributions to our culture, you know, inventing things and setting up one of the people we read about last night set up the city of Chicago, he founded a settlement that turned into the city of Chicago, the leaders, former leader of Kenya and Ghana, who negotiated independence from the UK. And so obviously, that focus is very much on history. And we also need to be talking about the work that Black people and other people of color are doing on an ongoing basis today. But it's just sort of an additional way that we are making this because of sort of baking these ideas into the fabric of our everyday lives.   Jen Lumanlan 03:18 And then, yes, we need to do our overtly anti-racist work, we need to be talking with our children about these ideas that don't just leave them with the impression that Black people were victimized and victims of their circumstances that they had agency in their lives and continue to have agency in their lives. And don't need rescuing. They don't need us to come and save them, they can tell us what they need and we should be listening to that. But I think it goes even deeper than that because I'm not sure that many of us myself absolutely included, fully understand the ways that White supremacy and patriarchy, and even capitalism show up in our lives. And so we've discussed before on the show, the interview with Dr. Carol Gilligan, and a bunch of times since then, in a variety of other episodes, about how patriarchy operates and how that shows up in ourselves. And one of the ways it does that is through creating separation, both within ourselves and between individuals. And so it separates, it crazy separation in ourselves by setting up these sort of arbitrarily masculine and arbitrarily feminine qualities. So masculine qualities might be things like logic and reason and, and assertiveness and confidence and all these things you stereotypically associate with men.   Jen Lumanlan 04:39 And then the feminine categories might be things like intimacy and tenderness, and unconditional love, and sort of the soft, feminine sides. And of course, the point here is that we all have all of these characteristics. There's nothing inherently masculine or feminine about any of them, but by dividing them, we're able to privilege one set, we're able to privilege the masculine set and say, Well, this is what we should be working towards, which is why we tell our girls that they should go and do STEM careers and, and exceed in traditionally male-dominated fields. But we don't tell either our girls or boys that yeah, it's okay to care about other people, it's okay to be in caring professions, and to want to have that be your life's work. So there's that sort of split within ourselves, but it also separates individuals by, in a way sort of policing our behavior and telling us what's acceptable and what isn't. And one of the ways it does that is by making it really difficult to ask for help, or even to offer help. And because we're all supposed to project this image of, “Well, I've got it together, everything's fine. There's no problem here, things are under control.” And if that's not the case, for any reason, then we can always buy something to help us fix that circumstance, like, we can buy a service, like a cleaner or somebody to outsource a part of the work that we're feeling is not in control too.   Jen Lumanlan 06:07 And so it's not even okay to offer help, I think, because that sort of breaks down the idea that the person you're offering to has it all together. And even if we offer, then the person sort of supposed to say, “Well, yeah, I'm okay, thanks, everything's fine, I don't really know of anything you can do.” And then we as the offer are sort of just supposed to stay in our lane and let it go. And I think the reason for this is that we are under a patriarchal White supremacist capitalist culture. We're not supposed to have this true sense of kind of community, because if we had that, we wouldn't need to buy as much stuff. Because we would just help each other out. And so there wouldn't be this need to just buy stuff to fill the gaps that that we have in our lives because we aren't able to be in true community. For example, my neighbor is running down to the store the other night, she was going already, and she lean down the car window on the way pass and she said, “Do you need anything?” And I had just been to the store early that day. And forgotten to get yogurt and said, “Hey, would you mind get me a quarter yogurt?” And so I didn't need to call down to Instacart. I didn't need to go down to the store again, myself. It was just a simple, you know, do you need anything, and me saying yes, rather than, “Well, I don't want to burden her or, you know, I don't want to go upstairs and get money right now.” And of course, when you do this often enough, the money can just kind of flow back and forth and it becomes less of a big deal. But she offered help. And I said, “Yeah,” in that moment, I would love to have some help. Thank you very much.   Jen Lumanlan 07:41 And so this holiday weekend, one of the things that I'm focusing on most closely, and I think my focus sort of shifts every year as I learn more, and I feel like my the ideas that I want to look at change. So for this year, what I'm doing right now is taking steps to reach out to my community, and specifically a community that was right around me. And so, I emailed the listener for all the people who live on our street. And I told them about all the things that my daughter Carys is interested in, which currently includes salamanders and invertebrates and fungi that are popping up around our neighborhood when it sometimes rains, not so often as it should be at the moment. And asking for their help and finding these things. And so we immediately got inundated with information like, “Is she interested in spiders?” “Oh, I have some orange fungi in my yard. I'll try and remember to bring them over.” We had one neighbor who said, “Hey, can we do a trade? I have a photography assignment for a class that I'm doing. And I have to photograph children expressing various different emotions.” Of course, your daughter is welcome to come and look in my yard whenever she likes but could we also do this trade where I get to photograph her and fulfill this goal for my assignment? And so we went over there and Carys got to turn over every rock in my neighbor’s back yard. And my neighbor was just fascinated by by watching this and how curious Carys is about all this stuff.   Jen Lumanlan 09:02 And I got to talk with his neighbor who is probably four doors down the street from me whom I've seen in passing, I knew her name before, but I had no idea about the things that are important to her and what she spent her life doing. And we were able to deepen that connection just because of that simple email that I had sent out that I wasn't even offering anything in particular, you know, yes, I had also added something to the button to say you know, if your kids are homeschooling or interested in anything at all that we might be able to help with feel free to reach out. But she just said hey, you know this, this is relevant to me. I'd love to be able to get some help with this. This is relevant to you. Can we work together? And yes, it was. It was a really lovely way to spend a couple of hours in the afternoon. Another way that we're doing this is by getting closer to our neighbors and actually proposed a meal-sharing arrangement with them where we would cook an extra meal one night a week and then give it to them, and they would cook an extra meal one night a week and give it to us. And so, it's literally almost no extra work. It's like 5% extra work. And it gets the other family a night off from cooking. Jen Lumanlan 10:09 Another thing that I'm also doing with my neighbors is that they have two kids who are in school, in zoom school most of the day, so they're not available in the mornings. But in the afternoons, they are basically running around the house and both parents are trying to work from home and get stuff done. And of course, I'm working from home too. And what I've finally realized is I can give up the illusion of feeling like I need to be shut away in a room to get work done. And rather than be interrupted every 15 minutes with my daughter who would literally walk past my husband to come down to the room where I'm working and ask for a snack, rather than have that continual interruption. I can actually work more effectively if I put a deck chair out in the driveway and sit sometimes bundled up in a lot of down jackets in the sun, in the winter. And Carys is playing with their kids and they're kind of running in between the two gardens wearing masks and looking for salamanders, exchanging rocks, bouncing a ball around, and just doing things that basically keep themselves entertained. And yes, I'm not in a quiet room. And now I couldn't do it on a day when I had a lot of calls, but it's it takes so much pressure off my neighbor who now doesn't have to worry every minute about what our kids are getting into, why it's quiet in the living room, and that she knows that they are having fun interactions. And it's basically no more work for me either. And so, I think that that is really sort of deepening our connections to each other as well.   Jen Lumanlan 11:38 One more example, I was out in the street yesterday morning, and our neighbors announced he was going to the store and renting a rug cleaner. And I thought, “Oh, thank goodness. Carys had actually peed on a rug by accident six months ago,” and we couldn't get the smell out. It's been rolled up; I haven't been able to get to the store to get a rug cleaning myself. I said, “Hey, can we go in on that with you? Can I just pay you half of the rental cost? And we'll use it for 15 minutes to try and get the smell out of this rug?” And he's like, “Sure, of course, why not.” And so I didn't have to go to the store and get the thing, which is the thing that's been holding me back for the last six months, he got a bit of help on the rental cost and was happy to help out. And again, we deepen the sense that if you ask for help, other people are more likely to ask us back, because they sort of in the beginning it kind of feel like well, I don't want to ask them, they never asked me for anything. And so I don't feel like I want to ask them. But if we put that first handout and say, “Hey, can I ask for your help with something?” Then they are much more likely to come back around when they need something. And that's what builds our sense of community. So yes, we can also offer to help people of course, particularly on a day like today, when we're thinking about what is our impact on the world. How do we want to leave our mark on this world? What are some of the ways that this is truly meaningful for you? Maybe helping scientists to catalog plant and animal species, that's one of the things we're going to be doing in a BioBlitz.   Jen Lumanlan 13:16 Where we're helping scientists understand what species we're finding in our neighborhood. Maybe we have a bit of a platform inside the company that we work for, and that we can use that to ask for change for things that seem really meaningful right now, and that you see that need to happen. Maybe like my neighbor, the photography friend, who we just met yesterday, properly is going out to protests at the invitation of the organizers and taking photographs of protests that are happening, and then giving them the images and donating them so that the organizations can use these images in their marketing materials and on their websites. And so they get high-quality images and my friend gets to feel as though her unique skills and talents are actively contributing, you know, yes, she could just show up to the protest. But she's going one step beyond that to share the unique skills and talents that she brings to the world. So the one thing I do want to say about this is if we do live in heavily segregated communities, as many of us do, it can focus on our very local communities and can end up hoarding resources. And that's one of the issues that I have with the Buy Nothing groups, particularly the ones that require that you live in a certain area to be a part of them. Because what that ends up doing is saying, “Well, you know, they all if all the people in my neighborhood are relatively well advantaged, we're only going to trade stuff within my neighborhood.” And that just ends up sort of hoarding and consolidating the resources available in that community is the people in that community to trade all of their expensive equipment. And people in a very different community have access to very different resources.   Jen Lumanlan 14:47 So I don't think that this focus on your tight local community is the only answer. But let's do these things in parallel. Let's do a bit of this and let's also do some reaching across community lines. Let's continue our anti-racist work. Let’s continue the conversations we're having with our children. Let's build our communities up on a variety of different scales, as we are working to dismantle the old systems. So I really hope that you'll join me in this work. I would love to hear about what it is you do as a resource for your community and also this so you're thinking about ways that you're going to be offering help to the community, but also, how are you going to ask for help from your community? What is it that you can identify that's like, “Oh, I'm going away for the weekend and the trash cans need to be out Monday morning, could I ask somebody to help put my trash cans out?” Just some tiny little thing like that gets you in conversation with your neighbors gets you on a different level of interaction than just saying hi, that you are offering something or asking for something, and that that will make it more likely that they will do the same in return. And that's how we build community.   Jen Lumanlan 15:57 So, thank you so much for joining me for this. We're gonna be back to regular episodes next week, and our episode for next week will be on red-shirting, whether or not you should red-shirt your child. It was actually one that I wrote over the holidays and it was a very, very in-depth episode. And of course, there are lots of connections to social justice issues related to whether or not you should hold your child back from kindergarten for a year, which is what we mean by red-shirting for those of you who are outside the US. So stay tuned for that lots more research-based information coming as usual, but I just wanted to share these thoughts with you and not let this holiday go by without sort of offering something to maybe help us all a little bit. Just move the needle, just move the needle a tiny bit in our local communities, and also much broader than that as well. So thanks so much for joining me and I will see you again soon.   [/accordion-item] [/accordion]

In this ad hoc episode, I outline a response to the U.S. Capitol siege.  I provide some suggestions for ways to talk with your child about the events, but also ask that you take two more steps: (1) examine your own role in these events, even if you condemn them yourself (as I do); (2) take action based on your own position and role in the world to work toward equality. You can find my resources on the intersection of parenting and race here. There's a specific blog post suggesting a script for talking with children about the Black Lives Matter movement (which could be adapted for this situation) here. Showing Up for Racial Justice's Action Hours are here   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan  00:01 Hello, everybody! I am recording live in our Facebook group. And I'm also recording this separately on the camera and on audio only as a way to share this information more broadly across a variety of platforms. I thought it was actually sharing in the group a minute ago, and I am not sure that it was working so I'm just trying to give this another go around. And I think actually, I just got the same message pop up saying that I was not sharing and now I am sharing, so hopefully this is going through to everywhere that it's supposed to be going. So the content of what I want to talk about today is about what has happened at the US Capitol. And it's been a couple of days, it's Friday, today, January 8, and two days after the events happened at the Capitol. And I wasn't really sure what to say and so I didn't want to say anything, I didn't want to say the wrong thing. And I went out for a bike ride this morning and it sort of clarified for me what it was that I wanted to say. And so that's why if you're watching this on video, you're probably seeing a bit of a stripe across my forehead and I'm freshly showered because I kind of came back and was on fire about what it was that I wanted to say. And so you're sort of hearing my relatively raw unedited thoughts. And I'm a little nervous about sharing those with you which is why you probably hear this in my voice. So I want to start with talking with our children about the events that have happened at the Capitol, because I'm hearing questions in Facebook groups and other places online if parents want to have these kinds of conversations with their children, but they don't know how to do it or they're thinking, okay, maybe my children are too young to understand what's going on and I don't want to scare them, and I'm not sure if I'm going to have a conversation with them at all.   Jen Lumanlan  01:57 And so, I have published resources on this before I actually have a post on how to talk with your child about Black Lives Matter. And I think that a lot of the principles that are discussed in there are very similar. And we want to do it in an age-appropriate way, we want to lead with their questions, and so I think ideally, this will come from them being out in the world, and they'll see things that they're curious about, and they'll ask about them, and that will lead into a conversation on these topics. But if we are not out so much lately, as many of us are not and maybe we don't have the news on all the time, and so their exposure to it may be much less than it otherwise would have been. And so well, what can we do when that's the case? And we're not sure how to bring the conversation up? Well, I would say the first thing we can do is to talk about it with a spouse or significant other or another adult over dinner, or over some other period of time where it's natural for you to have a conversation. And to just talk about what's on your mind—what's been in the news today? how is today's developments casting new light on? what we're thinking about what happened at the US Capitol? And pretty soon your child is probably going to say, “What are you talking about?” Or something that indicates that they're interested in this topic and I think that that can be a jumping-off point for you to try and give some background and ideally, that this won't be the first conversation that you will have had on current events like this, and you'll be able to talk about in context, Donald Trump and the policies that he has been enacting, and the ways that he talks to people, and whom he talks to. And so, that will provide you with the context that you need to then describe what has happened.     Jen Lumanlan  03:46 When they have questions, we can answer their questions clearly and directly. And also not be afraid to say when we don't know, because there's a lot that we don't know. And we don't have to put across the impression that we do know everything to our children all the time. I think it's also fine to share how we feel about the events with our children. It's important for them to see that our words and what we're saying match our demeanor, if we are clearly afraid about something, but we're sort of saying, “Oh, don't worry about it, it's fine,” then what they're learning from that is well, “I can see that my parent is not fine, but they're telling me fine. They're telling me everything's fine. Something really important is going on here,” or they may see, “Well, I just don't trust my own ability to judge how other people are reacting because I'm getting these mixed messages and I don't understand which one to prioritize. It must be what my parent is saying. And so I must not be capable of judging how their nonverbal reactions are supporting that message.” And so, I think behind a lot of these questions around what should I talk to my child, what should I say to my child, there's this big issue of privilege and of having the luxury to make that decision and to decide what we're going to say and to be able to make a decision to choose to say things that don't scare our children. And not all parents have the luxury to do this. So, if you're coming at these conversations for the first time, then welcome. There are resources that I've published available to help you there, a number of them are collected at yourparenting mojo.com/race. There's actually one on how to talk with your child about Black Lives Matter and I think that a number of the principles that are discussed in that post are also very applicable here. And the kind of script that you can use to build on their questions will also be helpful as you're navigating this kind of conversation.   Jen Lumanlan  05:50 So, that's the issue of talking with our children about this topic, but I think that there's a broader issue that I want to make sure isn't neglected. Because I think it's really critical to examine what is our role in this system, in the system that has made it feel to some people like Donald Trump is the best option who's available to me, and what he says is what I'm going to do. Because I think that it's really easy to point to those people and say, “Well, those people are racist, and I'm not like them, and it's all their fault, their problem,” and instead, I think that we all need to examine our role in the system that has created these events and to take action related to that. And so what does that mean? Well, I worked for a consulting company for a long time. And I worked in sustainability consulting for a number of years, which I really enjoyed, but it became apparent that there was a point in time where it was obvious people, companies were not willing to pay the premiums that my company wanted to sell this work for. And so, I was on the verge of getting laid off and an executive that I'd worked with previously, who appreciated my work said, “You should come to work on my team,” and I said, “Sure.” And so, we were in a portion of the business where we were selling outsourcing services and other things as well, technology implementation, but we were also selling outsourcing services. And so what I was essentially doing was supporting proposal development work, and so directly involved in selling the company's services related to outsourcing in countries like India and the Philippines, which would take jobs away from American citizens and outsource them to those companies where it's cheaper to operate.   Jen Lumanlan  07:59 And I remember reading in the news several years ago now that my company would force the American workers to train their new replacements on their jobs as a condition of receiving severance pay. And so, you know, I don't want to point to you and say, “You are the problem, you listeners, you watchers are the problem,” because we are all part of this problem. I was selling work that was taking jobs away from people who are many of them now are supporting Donald Trump, and sending that to other countries. And of course, there's a lot of complexity involved here, maybe I was involved in lifting the standard of living for somebody who was in those countries. It's not cut and dry. But I am not uninvolved in this system and neither are you. No matter where you sit in life, you have a role to play in this system. So maybe you're a teacher, and you participate in systems that involve awarding points for children who are reading books, and so that they can collect points and win rewards for reading books, as they're learning how to read. Well, what does that do? It pits children against each other, and it directly undermines the kind of cooperative systems that children from many other cultures learn at home and says that the way of being that you've learned in your culture is not valued here, competition is valued here. And if you want to do well, if you want to get ahead, then you need to get on board with that competitive approach. If you are teaching at any level at all, have you evaluated your curriculum through an anti-racist lens? You know, even if you're at the university level, are you looking at the contributions that Black people have made in your field? And are you teaching that alongside all of the contributions that the much better-known White inventors, scientists, and whoever has made in that field? If you're in government, how are the policies that you are creating, helping to perpetuate the system? Or how are they helping to break those systems down? If you're in business, does your business incorporate anti-racist principles? Are you actively working to lift up all people? I will say that I have been searching for a number of months now for a consulting company to help me look at embedding anti-racist principles into my business.   Jen Lumanlan  10:33 So, if you're watching this, and you work for somebody who does this, or you know of a company that does this, I know there are many companies that do it for multinational businesses. I am not aware of anyone who is yet doing it on a very small scale. I'm very interested in piloting something around that if somebody wants to develop an offering that can be taken to many small businesses. So this work needs to continue, even though I'm no longer working at the consulting company, it still needs to continue within my own business. If you don't work outside of the home, if your work involves raising children, then you still play a role. If your child is in daycare, or school, or preschool, where whatever situation they're in how do you advocate for resources for your child? Do you look at policies at your preschool daycare school? And look at those through the lens of well, “How does this benefit me? And how does this withhold benefits from other people?” Does this level the playing field? Does it help to lift up a group that has historically not been able to access resources as well as the group that I'm a member of has been able to? Does your child come home after the Dr. Martin Luther King Jr, holiday? And I think that well, he made a speech about having a dream and there was this woman called Rosa Parks, and she sat on a bus and now we're good. Racism isn't a problem anymore. If your child is coming home with that kind of message, then there's some work to do here.   Jen Lumanlan  12:06 And I would say if you're listening to this and thinking, “Well, that sounds exhausting to look at everything I do through that lens,” then I would say, “Yeah, maybe it can seem like some extra effort.” But it's not as much effort as being on the other end of these principles that are actively working against your existence, your right to exist in this world. And it is our responsibility as parents who have more privilege to examine our role in this system and to take steps to, break that system down to the extent that we can within our particular role in it. And so, I also want to link this idea to patriarchy, because I think that it's all connected. It's all connected because patriarchy does three things. Firstly, it creates scarcity, it creates a scarcity of jobs, it creates a scarcity of money of resources, and then it pits people against each other to vie for those resources. So I think a lot of parents who listen to the show feel a lot of pressure to give their children the skills they need to get ahead in life and to put them in the best daycare situation, and the best school situation so that they can get a job and place it in an elite university, and get a job from there at a White collar consulting company that I used to work for, or an investment banking firm or something along those lines. And that when we're doing those things, we are contributing to the perpetuation of this system that we're not seeing that this scarcity is in many ways artificially created as a way to keep us working against each other instead of working with each other. And that's sort of a separate, the second thing that patriarchy does creating separation, it makes us say, “Well, we're different from them and I want those resources, I need my child to go to an elite university so that they can get ahead and have a better life than I had. And there isn't enough stuff for me and my family to have it and for them and their family to have it and I need to make sure that my family has it, so I'm going to do everything I can for my child to get that and for their child to not get that.”   Jen Lumanlan  12:06 And we may sort of have this veneer of well, everything's equal and everybody's the same, but at the end of the day, if we are advocating for resources that benefit our child in the way that they do not benefit all other children, then we are part of this system that is perpetuating this problem. And then finally patriarchy creates powerlessness. And I think this is sort of a hypothesis of mine, but we see that people who are supporting Donald Trump are angry. And anger is always something that conceals other things underneath it, anger is never the only thing that's going on. And very often what anger conceals is a sense of fear, and maybe a sense of shame. And that the people who are angry are scared underneath all of this, they're scared that they won't be able to feed their family or whatever it is that’s going on for them. And because we have these other elements of patriarchy we're being pitted against each other, they are seeing well, if those people are being lifted up, then by default, I am not being lifted up and I need more, and we can't both have more. SoI think that, for some parents who are listening to this, they may be thinking, well, you know, all of this is politics. It's all stuff that's going out in the on out there in the world and this is not really connected to parenting, and that somebody who's talking about parenting doesn't have any business talking about politics. When I am coming to a certain place to get information about parenting, I want to just be able to get information about parenting and not have to deal with all the political stuff.     Jen Lumanlan  16:25 And to do those parents, I would say, “Okay, there's plenty of places where you can get that,” and increasingly, that is not going to be here in the Your Parenting Mojo community because this is directly connected to parenting. Adults use force to resolve conflicts that they're having because they learn this from their parents. And if you're thinking, “Well, I don't use force, I don't spank my kid. I'm not doing those things,” then I would say, okay, then we need to take a closer look at what's going on. And again, I'm not pointing fingers at you here, I'm saying this is all of us. This is me included. You know, sometimes we will sugarcoat our force, popular parenting advice says, “If your child is being difficult, and can't choose between what they're getting, you know, on the suite of options of what they're going to wear in the morning, then you give them two choices that you can live with both of them and that's what they get to choose between, or you have to brush your teeth, but we can use the pink toothbrush or the blue toothbrush. And at the end of the day, we're still applying force here, we're still saying, you're going to do this, you are getting dressed. And I'm going to make it seem like you have some choice by allowing you to pick between these two options and I think that's a really key idea here, that if you are allowing the child to pick, then that's not really choices. The same as in school, where you're allowed to pick between two assignments, the teacher is determined are acceptable, but you don't actually get a choice in terms of what you're learning. And we do this all the time, and I think it was in a conversation I had with Hannah and Kelsey on the upbringing podcast, where they were talking about having attended a Black Lives Matter protest, and you know, everybody there is saying, fight the power, fight the power and then they're getting home, and it's time for the kids to go to bed and saying, “Well, you're gonna brush your teeth now,” and so if you're sort of in public having this fight the power message, but at home, you're then forcing your child to do things against their will, then we are still perpetuating this same approach, we're still saying, “I don't care about how you how you feel about this.”   Jen Lumanlan  18:51 We may even be early in the stage of working through sort of a more peaceful parenting approach. And we know that we're supposed to hear our children and we're supposed to validate their feelings. And then so often, what I see is the parents will then jump to a solution and say, “Well, this is what we're going to do. I hear that you're frustrated and this is how we're going to do it,” and so then they wonder, well, a lot of times questions will come up around, well, my child won't engage in problem-solving with me, and they just walk away or they just say on and on and on I'm not listening or I just don't care or something like that. And the child has learned that they have no power in this interaction, that it's going to seem like they have some power, but actually, they have no power. So I think sort of the bigger thing that I want to convey here is that we're going to be exploring these ideas more and more here on the podcast and in other places that I'm active. We're not leaving the research behind, we're still going to be taking a very research-based approach to understanding what's going on with our children, but increasingly, we're going to be questioning the system that the research sets with it, and saying, “Well, how do we know that this is even the right question to ask? How do we situate this?” And what

When parents first hear about interest-led learning (also known as self-directed education), they may wonder: why on earth would we do that?  And how would my child learn without anyone teaching them?   Many parents start down this path with only an inkling of where it may end up taking them and I think this is true of our guest, Akilah Richards.  Akilah grew up in a typical Jamaican family where children were not allowed to have an opinion about anything - even their own bodies and feelings.  In her book Raising Free People, she writes that:   "Respect, the way [Jamaican parents] define it, is non-negotiable, and the spectrum of things a child can do to disrespect an adult, especially a parent, is miles wide and deep.  Reverence for adults, not just respect, is expected, normalized, and deeply ingrained.  Somebody else's mama could slap you for not showing reverence to any adult.    Physical punishment for the wrong displays of emotion, even silent ones like frowns or subtle ones like deep sighs, were commonplace, expected, celebrated as one of the reasons children "turned out right."  Not only did you, as a child, dismiss any attitudes or anything adults might perceive as rudeness, your general countenance should reflect a constant respect - no space at all for showing actual emotion, if that emotion was contrary to what was reverent and pleasant for the adults in your life - again, especially your parents."   While we may not have grown up with parents who were as overtly strict as this, chances are our parents and teachers used more subtle ways of keeping us in line with behavior management charts, grades (and praise for grades) and the withdrawal of approval if we were to express 'negative' emotions like frustration or anger.   And of course this is linked to learning because compulsory schooling does not allow space for our children to be respected as individuals.  There may be dedicated, talented teachers within that system that respect our children and who are doing the very best they can to provide support, but they too are working within a system that does not respect them.   So how could we use interest-led learning/self-directed education to support our child's intrinsic love of learning - as well as our relationship with them?  This is the central idea that we discuss in this episode.  It's a deep, enriching conversation that cuts to the heart of the relationship we want to have with our children, and I hope you enjoy it.   Ready to Support Your Child's Natural Learning Whether this episode has you considering unschooling, reinforced your commitment to traditional schooling, or left you somewhere in between, one thing is clear: every child deserves to have their natural curiosity and love of learning nurtured.   The challenge for parents isn't choosing the "right" educational path, but knowing how to support meaningful learning wherever your child is.   The Learning Membership gives you the tools to nurture your child's development whether they're in traditional school, homeschooled, or unschooled.   You'll discover how to: Turn everyday moments into rich learning opportunities (just like Laura does with her daughter)Support your child's interests and curiosity without becoming the "teacher" parentCreate a home environment that enhances rather than competes with whatever educational approach you choose   Inside the membership, you'll find research-backed strategies that work alongside any educational setting, helping you become the parent who nurtures learning rather than forcing it.   Your child's curiosity is precious - don't let it get lost in debates about educational methods.   Click the banner to learn more.     Resources discussed during the conversation: Maleka Diggs' Eclectic Learning Network Developing a Disruptor's Ear, by Akilah Richards and Maleka Diggs Toward Radical Social Change (TRUE) community Akilah's website, Raising Free People Akilah's book, Raising Free People

In this Sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode we hear from listener Anne, who has been in my Parenting Membership for a year now.  In our conversation we discussed the anxiety she used to feel about every aspect of parenting, including the things she wanted to teach her son to do (Spanish! Coding!) and how she interacted with both him and with her husband.   She actually joined the Parenting Membership to learn how to become the perfect parent, and I'm sorry to say that I failed as her teacher/guide in that regard.  She is not a perfect parent (and neither am I), but she is now a perfectly good enough parent, and has been able to relax into her relationship with her son because of that.   I hope you enjoy this raw, vulnerable conversation where Anne reflects on the changes she has made in her life over the last year.     [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen  00:03 Hi, I’m Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast where I critically examine strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. In this series of episodes called Sharing Your Parenting Mojo, we turn the tables and hear from listeners. What have they learned from the show that’s helped their parenting? Where are they still struggling? And what tools can we find in the research that will help? If you’d like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you’ll join us.   Jen  00:59 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today we're going to hear from a special guest Anne, who is a parent whom I work with on a regular basis. She's going to tell us about the anxiety that she used to feel to be the perfect parent to her son, which threatened to overwhelm her and potentially even her marriage. She actually joined my membership a couple of years ago hoping it would teach her how to become the perfect parent. And in some ways, she didn't get what she paid for at all. And another she got so much more.   Jen  01:28 Unfortunately, she didn't learn how to become the perfect parent. Instead, she realized there's no such thing as a perfect parent and that trying to be the perfect parent was tearing her apart. She learns new communication tools which we teach as a way of helping parents to get on the same page about the parenting decisions they're making, But of course, they're applicable to other kinds of conversations as well. So now she's able to talk with her husband in a way that doesn't get his back up, that helps him to understand her needs, and she's able to hear and understand his needs, and they can work together to find solutions to all kinds of problems, not just those related to parenting.   Jen  02:02 She's become deeply involved in anti-racist work, and if you join the membership, you'll actually find her leading our anti-racist group activities. When she's learned how to stand up to family members, when they say something that she finds deeply offensive. She used to just be offended and let it slide and be seething on the inside, but she doesn't do that anymore, and she knows how to decide which of these kinds of issues that families disagree on are okay to let go, and which are worth taking a stand on. And she's become increasingly confident over the last few months to take a stand on those things that she knows are important to her. So, she's learning how to set boundaries with people that she's never felt able to set boundaries with before, which is setting a great example for her son who's watching and learning from her.   Jen  02:45 So, in some ways, she's become more rigid where she used to be so flexible that her needs weren't being met. And in other ways, she's become much more flexible, where she used to be very rigid. She doesn't worry anymore about teaching her son coding, or Spanish, or any of the other skills that she wants thought were critical to his success and to her role as a good parent. Instead, she sees her son for who he is, and she's able to meet his needs rather than imposing on him what she used to feel she had to deliver to him in her role as the perfect parent.   Jen  03:17 Anne it's just one of the amazing parents that I've had the honor to work with in my memberships over the last couple of years. Some of them are former perfect parents, other parents who were just about holding it together and have found a similar sense of calm and clarity as they connect with their child's needs and have let all the unimportant stuff go. I'd love to work with you as well, no matter where you are in your parenting journey.   Jen  03:38 To learn more about the memberships go to YourParentingMojo.com/memberships.   Jen  03:44 I'm here today with a listener. Anne. Anne, thanks so much for joining us. It's so great to see you.   Anne  03:48 Hello, good to see you too.   Jen  03:51 So, I wonder if you could tell us maybe a little bit about your family and yourself as well. And, and we're going to talk about kind of a transformation that's happened in your parenting over the last couple of years. So maybe you can just set the stage by telling us a bit about who you are and who you live with.   Anne  04:06 Sure. Yeah. So, my name is Anne. And I have a two-and-a-half-year-old son Anderson. And we live with his father, my husband, Jeff, and let's see. Yeah, I work in STEM and education for university. I really like what I do. That's nice. I have great work life balance. So that's awesome, too. Yeah, we live in Arizona. Flagstaff, Arizona, so it's actually snowing here today.   Jen  04:36 Yes. You're getting all the snow; we're getting all the sun.   Anne  04:40 Yes. Strange weather. Yeah.   Jen  04:43 So, I wonder if you can tell me about some things that are important to you as an individual and, and the values that you really had as you were thinking about having children and starting to raise a child.   Anne  04:55 Right. Yes. So, I actually did quite a bit of thought into this. about two and a half years ready before I had my son. So, I just, yeah, I thought a lot about what kind of world I was bringing him into and what kind of world I wanted to set up for him and what our values might be. So yeah, above all, I believe in just compassion, empathy, equity, respect for all people, including, you know, and that doesn't exclude anyone, even people that exclude other people, for instance. And also, to some degree, just the ecosystem, so the living and nonliving things in our life. And I really, I try to live by that. And I'd like to raise my son to live by that.   Jen  05:46 Yeah. And so, you joined the Finding Your Parenting Mojo membership a couple of years ago, and I wonder if you can tell me a little bit about what was going on in your mind when you made that decision to join? What were you trying to achieve?   Anne  06:00 Oh, yes, good questions. My goals have shifted a little bit. Yeah, at the time, it was my goal, you know, to have my son speak Spanish, and to be versed in coding, and all these things. And I really just wanted to be like the perfect parent. I wanted to, like, give him the stage set for any kind of life that he wanted to live. And that was very exhausting. And yeah, like, not possible, really. So, when I joined, I was really looking to become like a perfect parent. But what it's done is much different than that, right?   Jen  06:40 Yeah, a little bit.   Anne  06:41 It certainly helped me grow as a parent, but it's also helped me shift my perspective as to kind of where I want to put my energy and how to make it effective.   Jen  06:53 Okay.   Anne  06:54 I already...   Jen  06:55 And how did that process start for you?   Anne  06:57 So, it started, I guess, by reading, reading guides, listening to your podcasts, and kind of checking out some ancillary materials, you know, that you have provided. And then also, I think the big leap for me was participating in the membership calls. So, interacting with other people that share the same goals, creating kind of a community. And just seeing the different examples of ways people are doing it, and how they're fitting in and through their lives. It really started to shift things in my life as opposed to just absorbing massive amounts of information.   Jen  07:38 Mm hmm. Yeah, this is a common tendency isn't it? It's when we feel like something isn't right, that we it's just we haven't read the right book yet. We just need more information.   Anne  07:49 Right? Yeah. I read a lot of books. Changed a lot what I was doing   Jen  07:57 Yeah. And so, what do you think might have happened if you've gone down that path that you were on? Where do you think that would have taken you as a parent? And then your relationship with your son?   Anne  08:08 Good question. I did reach a tipping point, kind of with my exhaustion. And yeah, just reached a level of anxiety that was alarming. And we all realized as a family, oh, wait, we need to change something here. This isn't working. So yeah, I was just very kind of overwhelmed and filled with anxiety, mostly. And I wonder, you know, if that tipping point hadn't have happened, and they just kind of kept chugging along on that path, you know, I think some possible outcomes could have been parental burnout, work, life burnout, potentially even divorce. Hopefully not. But you know, those things that, you know, tend to happen when you just kind of keep chugging along in a fear based, anxious state. I'm happy to be off that track.   Jen  09:03 Oh, wow. Okay, so I wonder then, if you can tell us a bit about how this transformation happened between that place where you were, that was very fear and anxiety based to what seems like a very different path. What was the beginning? Like?   Anne  09:18 Yeah, so I mean, like, with all transformative change, it came from multiple directions, right? You know, there was some of the different topics we covered in the membership group like parenting as a team - pairing with your partner - you know, that kind of broadened in the marriage aspect, like how can I improve my relationship to improve my parenting. And then goal setting and reducing anxiety, self-compassion, you know, all these things that these ideas that I hadn't really been introduced to in any sort of helpful way before. So, you know, it starts with the idea and then just trying to incorporate it, like, okay, here's a situation where I recognize this is what's happening, how can I actually incorporate what I'm learning about, and hearing about, and talking about with other people into this? How can I bring that into this situation? So, it's been like, kind of a practice.   Anne  10:20 And yeah, like talking about things that have, here's a situation that happened in the past, and I anticipate it's going to happen again, like, bringing up those examples and talking through, Well, how could I have done this better? or What can I do next time. So it is, the difference is bringing it into your personal life as a practice. And being able to talk with you, being able to talk with other parents on this journey about what they might do in your specific situation really makes the difference, I think.   Jen  10:56 Yeah, and I've been impressed in the times that we've interacted on our group calls, you lay yourself out there, and you get kind of vulnerable. And it's, it's not required, there are some people who will, will definitely kind of hold things back. And they're looking for a situation or a solution to a certain situation. But you will kind of say, you know, this is what's going on for me right now. And it's hard. And I think that that really allows us to get below the surface level, "Oh, well, my child's misbehaving, what do I do?" to what's really underneath this and how do we work on that stuff? Because that's, I mean, that's the stuff of life, right? That's the  really important stuff.   Anne  11:34 Yeah, no, I mean, being vulnerable is extremely important to grow. And, yeah, every time that I have been vulnerable on these calls, and our groups and everything like that, it's helped me get out of that. Whatever, undesirable situation, I'm in that I may not want to share it because I'm embarrassed, I'm able to actually move through it, and then it's no longer an issue. So, I don't even have to be embarrassed about it anymore because it's not there anymore. So yeah, I think it's really important. And it does, it helps to have the community that you know, will be supportive to be able to bring that, those things up.   Jen  12:20 Hmm. I wonder if you can talk us through a specific challenge that you've had, and something that maybe it just, just seemed like, there wasn't a way out of this paper bag and then how that shifted for you. Is there is an example that pops to mind?   Anne  12:36 Yes, I mean, there's a lot of... There's so many things that I worked through after, you know, a lifetime of really not addressing them this year. So, yeah, I think one really surprising thing out of this, you know, improve my parenting goal which I'm a part of here is that it's actually helped me address some things in my relationship with my mother which has always been very complicated. We just have gone through several periods of, you know, not getting along to kind of tolerating each other, and then going back into the not getting along.   Anne  13:15 And so, one of the things that I was able to do in the membership just through kind of these interactions with the community, is kind of stand up to her about some non-inclusive political beliefs that she was just spouting. And, you know, I've never really stood up to my mother for myself, I've always just kind of changed the subject or walked away, or, you know, just sit there, and listen with a scowl on my face or something like that. And so, kind of when we were talking about this, like how to raise anti-racist children how to be less racist, more anti-racist yourself, then I was thinking, you know, I do I need to stand up to her about this thing.   Anne  14:06 And so, she said something that I didn't agree with. It was about like blue versus pink diapers or something. And I was just, you know, and I found it offensive. And I was like, "I'm upset that you said that." And that's all it took. I didn't have to elaborate. I didn't have to try to present any data, any argument, you know, like, nothing. That's all it took. And she's basically like, I'd never stood up to my mother about anything. So that gave me the confidence to stand up to her about stuff that mattered to me and my relationship with her, in my relation, in my son's relationship with her. And since I've kind of been able to address some of these things head on as they come up, and be like, "Hey, I don't want you to treat my son that way. Or I don't want you to treat me that way. That's not fair." And to her credit, she's been super responsive and very apologetic. And so, it's a two-way street, right? But if you never stand up for yourself, then you never would know, right? And you'd never have the opportunity to improve the situation. So, our relationship, my relationship with my mother has improved, as well as my son's relationship with his grandmother.   Jen  15:23 Yeah, I didn't know you're going to bring up this example, but I remember that you recently visited with her, right? And had a kind of a breakthrough in that relationship. Would you mind speaking about that?   Anne  15:36 Yeah, so we visited for three weeks, because you know, COVID world and like, if you're going to travel, I'm working from home anyways. So where does it matter where I am. So, so we visited for three weeks, that's just an extremely long amount of time. And at one point, we were packing, I'm packing for a weekend with my husband and my son, we're going to take their camper and kind of get away from the vacation for a vacation from a vacation. And my son wanted to pack some blocks that my mother had bought him to play with. Well, she kind of has her own thing about toys, and you know, what's hers and things mean a lot to her. And I was totally triggered because I was like, "You!" You know, in my in my inner child head I'm like, "You never let me play with the toys I wanted to play with." And, you know, "You always controlled the way I played with them." And now that you're telling my son, my two-year-old son that he can't take these blocks that you bought them, like, I'm super triggered. So, I just, you know, I threw an adult tantrum, and I was just throwing them blocks in the bag. And then later, when she, we kind of came together to reconcile and apologize, I was like, "You know, what I was triggered, I was triggered because of trauma from childhood that I had around toys. And that you, you know, you wouldn't let me play with toys the way I wanted to, you wouldn't let me play with certain toys. They always had to be, how you saw them, and which toys and it was just very controlling." And so, she was basically like, "Wow, okay, I'm really sorry, I did that." And then fast forward three days, she was like, "I remember doing this to you. I remember that American Girl doll that you wanted. Not getting it for you. Buying you a porcelain doll that you weren't allowed to play with. I remember these things. And I'm sorry, I'm really sorry."   Jen  17:40 Wow, first time I'm hearing all the details is giving me the shivers.   Anne  17:42 And so, no, it was really... And through that process she was kind of able to remember some good things about that. Like, because I wasn't allowed to play with toys, I just went outside. So, I've had, I have a lifelong love of the outdoors. So, I mean, that's not too bad. And you know, it's kind of, Yeah, it's just and how could my mother have known how that would affect me? You know, like, she don't know what you don't know. And she has her childhood stuff about toys. And so, I was able to forgive her completely.   Jen  18:19 How did that feel?   Anne  18:20 Amazing. Like, I don't even mind talking to her on the phone now. Like it's awesome.  

  Let's talk problem solving!  Many of us have tried it, but it's so common to get stuck...and to think that the method doesn't work, and then return in exasperation to the methods we'd been using all along.  These often involve coercion, or forcing the child to do something they don't want to do - but what's the alternative?   In this episode we talk with Dr. Ross Greene, who developed the Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (formerly Collaborative Problem Solving) approach in his books The Explosive Child and Raising Human Beings.  I really enjoyed digging into the research for this episode (why do all the papers describing CPS compare its effectiveness to behaviorist-based approaches?) but I ended up really taking one for the team: we didn't have time for all of my questions on the research because I wanted to make sure to address the challenges with problem solving that parents in the free Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group described when I asked them about this topic.   These challenges included: How to problem solve with very young children What to do when the same issue recurs over and over and the solutions we decide on together don't seem to help How to navigate a child not wanting to leave the park when it's time to go How to approach a child who doesn't seem to be able to or refuses to communicate their feelings   Dr. Greene's books Raising Human Beings (Affiliate link) The Explosive Child (Affiliate link)   Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits Do you have a child aged 1 - 10? Are they resisting, ignoring you, and talking back at every request you make? Do you often feel frustrated, annoyed, and even angry with them? Are you desperate for their cooperation - but don't know how to get it? If your children are constantly testing limits, the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.   Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       References Note: Direct links to presentations from conferences can be found on Dr. Greene’s Lives in the Balance website: https://livesinthebalance.org/research Booker, J., & Ollendick, T.H. (2019). Patterns in the parent-child relationship and clinical outcomes in a randomized control trial. Presented at symposium, Collaborative and Proactive Solutions as an alternative to Parent Management Training for youth with oppositional defiant disorder: A comparison of therapeutic models. World Congress of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, Berlin, Germany. Booker, J.A., Capriola-Hall, N.N., Dunsmore, J.C., Greene, R.W., & Ollendick, T.H. (2018). Change in maternal stress for families in treatment for their children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Journal of Child and Family Studies 27, 2552-2561. Booker, J.A., Ollendick, T.H., Dunsmore, J.C., & Greene, R.W. (2016). Perceived parent-child relations, conduct problems, and clinical improvement following the treatment of Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Journal of Child & Family Studies 25, 1623-1633. Calam, R. M. (2016). Broadening the focus of parenting interventions with mindfulness and compassion. Clinical Psychology: Science and Practice , 23(2), 161–164. Dedousis-Wallace, A., Drysdale, S., Murrihy, R.C., Remond, L., McAloon, J., Greene, R.W., & Ollendick, T.H. (2019). Predictors and moderators of Parent Management Training and Collaborative & Proactive Solutions in the treatment of oppositional defiant disorder in youth. Presented at symposium, Collaborative and Proactive Solutions as an alternative to Parent Management Training for youth with oppositional defiant disorder: A comparison of therapeutic models. World Congress of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, Berlin, Germany. Dunsmore, J.C., Booker, J.A., Ollendick, T.H., & Greene, R.W. (2016). Emotion socialization in the context of risk and psychopathology: Maternal emotion coaching predicts better treatment outcomes for emotionally labile children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Social Development 25(1), 8-26. Fitzgerald, M., London-Johnson, A., & Gallus, K.L. (2020). Intergenerational transmission of trauma and family systems theory: An empirical investigation. Family Therapy 42(3), 406-424. Greene, R., & Winkler, J. (2019). Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (CPS): A review of findings in families, schools, and treatment facilities. Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review 22, 549-561. Greene, R.W. (2016). Raising Human Beings: Creating a collaborative partnership with your child. New York, NY: Scribner. Greene, R.W. (2014). The explosive child: A new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically inflexible children. New York, NY: Harper Paperbacks Greene, R.W., & Doyle, A.E. (1999). Toward a transactional conceptualization of Oppositional Defiant Disorder: Implications for assessment and treatment. Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review 2(3), 129-148. Hart, R. (1992). Children’s participation: From tokenism to citizenship. UNICEF. Retrieved from: https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/childrens_participation.pdf Kroger, J., Martinussen, M., & Marcia, J.E. (2010). Identity status change during adolescence and young adulthood: A meta-analysis. Journal of Adolescence 33, 683-698. Miller-Slough, R.L., Dunsmore, J.C., Ollendick, T.H., & Greene, R.W. (2016). Parent-child synchrony in children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder: Associations with treatment outcomes. Journal of Child and Family Studies 25(6), 1880-1888. Murrihy, R.C., Drysdale, S., Wallace, A., Remond, L., McAloon, J., Greene, R.W., & Ollendick, T.H. (2019). Parent Management Training (PMT) and Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (CPS): A randomized comparison trial for oppositional youth within an Australian population. Presented at symposium, Collaborative and Proactive Solutions as an alternative to Parent Management Training for youth with oppositional defiant disorder: A comparison of therapeutic models. World Congress of Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, Berlin, Germany. Tiberio, S.S., Capaldi, D.M., Kerr, D.C.R., Bertrand, M., Pears, K.C., & Owen, L. (2016). Parenting and the development of effortful control from early childhood to early adolescence: A transactional developmental model. Developmental Psychopathology 28(3), 837-853. Zero to Three (2016). Tuning in: National parent survey report. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.zerotothree.org/resources/1425-national-parent-survey-report

My guest for this episode is life coach and reparenting expert Xavier Dagba, who is here to discuss the topic of boundaries in parenting.   We don't tend to learn much about having boundaries when we're young, because our culture teaches that children shouldn't really need or have them (and those of us who are using respectful parenting approaches are working against the tide here).  This then translates to us not knowing how to set boundaries as adults, and feeling 'walked all over' - without fully understanding why, or what to do about it.   We also talk about the limit between boundaries and limits, an important distinction as we interact with our children.   If you need more support in setting limits that your child will respect (and using far fewer of them than you might ever have thought possible - while still having your boundaries respected!), sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Other resources from this episode: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, M.D.Xavier's websiteFollow Xavier on Instagram

I often hear two related ideas about adults' screen usage around children. Sometimes the parent asking the question guiltily confesses to using screens around their children more than they would like, and to using screens as a momentary escape from the demands of parenting. Or the parent asking the question feels that they have found a sense of balance in their own screen usage, but worries about their partner who frequently ignores their child because they're so focused on a screen. In this episode we interview a luminary in the field of research related to children and screen usage: Dr. Jenny Radesky, who is a Developmental Behavioral Pediatrician and Assistant Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School.  Her research interests include the use of mobile technology by parents and young children, and how this relates to child self-regulation and parent-child interaction, and she was the lead author of the 2016 American Academy of Pediatrics policy statement on digital media use in early childhood. We'll learn whether you should be worried about Technoference, and some judgement-free steps you can take to navigate your (or your partner's) screen usage around your child.   Parenting Membership  If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out. Click the banner to learn more. Join the waitlist to get notified when doors reopen in May 2025.       [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:03 Hi, I’m Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you’d like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you’ll join us. Jen 01:00 Hello, everyone. Before we get into the topic of today's new episode, I wanted to let you know about my special Black Friday promotion that I have running now through midnight, Pacific time on Friday, November 27th. For this limited time, I'm offering access to my parenting membership for only $25 a month, and to my supporting your child's learning membership for only $35 a month. Now those of you who know me, and the show might be kind of surprised to hear me running a Black Friday promotion. After all, I get complaints about my left-leaning, anti-capitalist stance all the time. And I thought it would be doubly amusing to talk about this before an episode on technoference, which is when technology like our smartphones interferes with our relationships, because I imagine a number of you are planning technology related purchases for the holidays. Jen 01:43 But I decided to do this for two reasons. Firstly, I know these memberships can help you. I've seen so many parents transform their approach to parenting and get confident in supporting their child's love of learning through the memberships. And secondly, we're in a year when people are looking for holiday gifts that just don't involve bringing more stuff into our homes, and that also can't involve going out to museums and other places that may well be closed. And the parenting membership can really help you go from just hanging on to actually thriving in parenting. And the learning membership will help you make the best use of your time that you're already spending with your children to support their intrinsic love of learning. And third, things are completely aligned with my values. If you miss the Black Friday promotion, they will still be time to enroll at the regular rate starting on December 1st and we'll dive into the content as a group on January 1st. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com to learn more and enroll today. Jen 02:42 Now, whether you take advantage of the Black Friday promotion, or you enroll in December, I believe in helping as many families as possible, and I've tried to make even the regular rates accessible to everyone. I'm confident that anyone who joins and learns the material that I'll make easily accessible for you will support learning and development in their children, find parenting easier, and lay the groundwork for transformational change at home. I want to read you a bit of a message that member Catherine wrote to me about her experience in the parenting membership. So, Catherine says, "the membership has really allowed me to hone in on the doing the concrete actions I want to take and move from the endless swirl of ideas to actually implementing the ones that are based on my values. It's allowed me to stop waiting for perfection when I figured out how to do it all and focus instead on progress. It just really hits the nail on the head of what I need to know. The most recent module we covered on our sense of ourselves as parents has allowed me to perceive so much differently in my day to day life and take in what I'm learning elsewhere in a different way. I've gained so much clarity even in the last week, and noticed a palpable difference in my sense of calm and in my acceptance of my children, my husband, and others with whom I interact in relation to my children." Jen 04:01 So, in my parenting membership, you'll lean on a research-based approach to support your child's development, while making parenting easier. This membership is for children aged around 18 months through the end of elementary school, regardless of where you are in your parenting journey: from the parent who's just trying to survive to the parent who's looking to the future. Your first year in the parenting membership is now only $25 a month through Black Friday, November 27th. In my supporting your child's learning membership, you'll learn how to best support your child's intrinsic love of learning. Most of us want this for our children, but we don't know how and even more how we interact with our children often actually works against this goal. This membership is for parents with children old enough to ask questions through the end of elementary school and who want to set the stage for a lifetime love of learning. Jen 04:52 Ginelle joined the membership because she wanted to support her children's love of learning, but the only way she knew how to do that was to do what school does. To teach them stuff they needed to know. Through the membership Ginelle has learned that she doesn't have to teach for her child to learn. In fact, some of the most powerful learning happens when we just model for our child. Ginelle found that one simple mindset shift has really made a huge difference in her ability to support her child's learning. She says, "Most notably, I find I'm answering my children's questions in a more open way. Sometimes this is with another question. Other times, it might just be a more vague, open-ended answer. It's a change that sounds so basic and common sense when I think about it now, but I needed that extra bump from the membership to actually make me realize it and apply it." Jen 05:41 Special Black Friday pricing for my supporting your child's learning membership is now only $35 a month through midnight Pacific on Black Friday, which is November 27th, and we get started on January 1st. Both of the memberships include all of the information that you need, and none of the fluff that you don't to achieve the easy joy-filled family life that you worked so hard for, but which may seem so out of reach right now. And both memberships include support and community so you can make that next tiny step that you need to take to help you reach your goals. Go to YourParentingMojo.com today to take advantage of these special Black Friday offers the parenting membership for only $25 a month, and the supporting your child's learning membership for only $35 a month. Support your child's learning and development while making parenting easier, perhaps the best gift you could give to your family this holiday season. Thanks again for listening. I hope the rest of your year is filled with joy and activities that are truly meaningful in your life. Jen 06:42 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. I've had our topic today on my mind for a while and over the last few months I think it's become more relevant than it ever has been before. And the topic we're going to talk about today is technoference and that's the idea that technology, and specifically mobile phones, interferes with relationships that we have with other people. It can interfere with relationships of all kinds and your might first rest on your partner, and how you perceive your partner's phone use interfering with your relationship, and we'll certainly touch on that. But our primary focus for today will be on how our phones interfere with our relationships with our children. We'll learn how concerned we should really be about this and what we should try and do to balance our own needs for connectedness with others and our children's need for connectedness with us. Jen 07:33 And so here to discuss this today with us is Dr. Jenny Radesky. Dr. Radesky is a developmental behavioral pediatrician and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Michigan Medical School. Dr. Radesky obtained her MD from Harvard Medical School. Conducted her pediatrics residency at the University of Washington, and then a fellowship in developmental behavioral pediatrics at Boston University. She's board certified in pediatrics and developmental behavioral pediatrics. Her research interests include the use of mobile technology by parents and young children, and how this relates to child self-regulation and parent child interaction. She was the lead author of the 2016 American Academy of pediatrics policy statement on digital media use in early childhood. Jen 08:15 Welcome, Dr. Radesky. Dr. Radesky 08:16 Hi, thanks so much for having me. Jen 08:19 Okay, so let's start kind of where we often do when we're coming to a topic like this, which is with some definitions and terminology. And I actually learned a new word while I was researching this episode, which is fubbing. So, I'm wondering, can you help us understand what is technoference? What is fubbing? Is it the same thing? Or is it different? Dr. Radesky 08:38 It's pretty similar. I mean, the term fubbing was in the research literature first, as I was starting to try to research how parents phone use influences family dynamics. It was like 2010-2011, and I was in my fellowship, and I was scouring the literature for any prior research on parents and kids and technology. And there wasn't much there was really just this fubbing phenomenon, which was how a mobile phone inserts itself into an interpersonal space and the, you know, the person who is doing the fubbing kind of gets a little bit transported to, you know, another virtual space where they're interacting with someone else, or with other content. And then the fubbee gets, you know, often the research is showing they're frustrated. And this term started even when mobile phones were just little dumb phones, you know, with texting capabilities. And the mobile communications research was really just interested in, now we could take these devices everywhere, you know, they were focused on using technology on mass transit, or at mealtimes, or during other times that normally had a bit of a boundary around it when it came to technologies. Dr. Radesky 09:53 So technoference was a term developed by my co-author and collaborator Brandon McDaniel. He's a psychologist Who's that Parkview Research Center in Indiana. So, he gets the credit for that term. But he coined that term in trying to capture a research measure that's not just about how much is the parent using technology or how much is the child using technology, but what's happening with the relationship? And so, it became a questionnaire asking parents about on a typical day, you know, how many devices are you using when you're interacting with your child? Jen 10:27 Yeah. And so, what I found was myself, it was kind of thinking about technoference in terms of the relationship. And then I just wanted to find fubbing, it's this portmanteau of phone and snubbing stuck together. But I found the idea of the fubber and the fubbee to be useful to distinguish who's on which end of that relationship as well. Dr. Radesky 10:49 Yeah, and I think there's been some interesting ethnographic research where people have interviewed families to talk about how it feels when your spouse or partner is doing the fubbing, especially when it's just a high stress time in your household, or, you know, someone has to change a diaper, and all of a sudden your partner is absorbed in their phone. And so that, you know, negative connotation that comes with the term snubbing has even more layers, when it comes to parents who are taking care of a young child, which is just such, you know, has many different sources of stress in it to begin. Many different issues around co-parenting and role overload. And I'm interested in early childhood, mostly because it's such a time of building resilience. When kids are facing adversity, or stressful times, like a pandemic, secure relationships are a huge buffer to that stress, or are a way that kids make meaning of stressful times build emotion regulation, you know, so that's why I kind of put my interest in technology that started when I was in Seattle, you know, I was in Seattle in like 2007-2011, which is like, just the time that the iPhone and all these devices were coming out. And I was like, this is fascinating, you know, dynamics are changing so much in our hospital in our offices. Dr. Radesky 12:07 So, I took that with my interest in early childhood relationships. And that's where my first study in the fast-food restaurants came from because I was like, I just want to observe what's happening here. I don't want to come in with preconceived hypotheses or notions about this is bad, this is good. I want to observe, take field notes, like I'm an anthropologist, and just see the patterns of what's happening. And that study wound up getting so much press attention, because there was already this societal kind of concern. Like, every time there's new technologies introduced, the society gets a bit anxious, they feel uncomfortable, they feel disrupted. This has happened extremely rapidly, you know, the way that we've adopted these new technologies is so much faster than the way radio or telephones were adopted. So I was a fellow at the time and getting interviewed, you know, by like The Today Show or Al Jazeera America, and I was like, wow, people are really concerned about this, I need to be aware of the fact that this is a hot topic that's going to polarize that's going to kind of have some implicit judgement in it, too. And that's where my research, you know, on this topic started. Jen 13:16 Okay. So I wonder if we can go into that a little bit, then because I think a lot of the research that had been conducted to that point on fubbing, as it was known until then, was sort of done by asking people, how much do you use your phone? And then the fubbee, how much does it annoy you when somebody uses your phone, when they use their phone in front of you? And your methodology, it was the first time I'd seen it in the literature in this, you know, to be used in this way. And it's been replicated a whole bunch of times in different environments since then. So, can you tell us what did you do? And then what did you see when you're sitting in these restaurants? Dr. Radesky 13:50 Yeah. And it took me a while to land on this study design, actually. So, we thought about creating a survey. And that's what a lot of the fubbing research had been on but I was really worried that a survey would have too much what we call social desirability bias in research, and I also knew that the way that we interact with phones is more intermittent or immersive. I knew there was that cultural overlay of judgement of parents about it. So, I didn't want to, you know, create a survey that could possibly be biased, I wanted objective data. So, objective meaning you can kind of observe it and count it and see what's happening without the parent being self-conscious that they're being judged. Dr. Radesky 14:35 So, we decided on public observations, this has been done to look at how parents discipline their kids in public. It's been done to look at how, you know, people interact with public spaces. And it's considered ethical because we didn't collect any identifiable data. We didn't write down any child names, but the participants didn't know we were watching. It's you know, it's called nonparticipant observation because you go and you blend in with the surroundings. So myself and two research assistants just went to all these fast-food restaurants in Boston, in the spring and summer of 2013. I was like pregnant as can be with my second son. And we were taking field notes. So, we would bring a laptop and some books and act like we were just, you know, drinking an iced coffee and taking field notes. Dr. Radesky 15:24 We tried to go to sampled around different neighborhoods in Boston that had higher income, lower income, you know, Panera to Chipotle a to McDonald's. And we just took these long winded, continuous notes of like, 'Mom picks up phone, it's held about 10 inches from her face, you know, child is eating French fry.' So boring. But when we read these field notes over and over, we were just seeing patterns and themes of behavior that emerged. The biggest theme was absorption, we called it, which is a term that's been used before, but it was really this idea that the parents gaze and attention and it looked like a lot of their cognitive energy was on the phone, not on the child. We were looking a lot, not just for the negative, we were looking for times when parents and kids were sharing media and laughing over it, we saw that like four times, out of 55 families. We saw, you know, about a third of families who used phones were had this absorption where there was very little conversation. Kids would sometimes act up to get their attention. You know, we saw one child who tried to pull his mom's face up from her iPad, and she yelled at him and pushed him away, or another mom that kind of, you know, nudged her or kicked her kids under the table when they were, you know, acting up and trying to get her attention. Dr. Radesky 16:42 And none...

Sibling relationships can be SO HARD!  Sometimes it might seem that we can't leave them alone for even a second before they're at each other's throats, and on top of this we see their struggles and are reminded of the struggles that we had with our own siblings so many years ago.  This can cause us to overreact in the moment, even when we know it's not helping the situation. I discussed some of the reasons behind sibling squabbles a couple of years ago in a conversation with Dr. Susan McHale of Penn State University.  In today's episode we build on this knowledge by discussing some super practical tools to help parents foster positive sibling relationships. In this Sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode I talk with Kira Dorrian and Deana Thayer of Future Focused Parenting, who host the Raising Adults podcast. The parents of seven children between them, including a set of twins and five in a blended family, Kira and Deana know their way around sibling squabbles.   We discuss ways to stop being the person who always has to moderate every disagreement and instead equip our children with the skills they need to find solutions to their own problems.   Jump to highlights: 02:37 Laying the foundation of possible sibling relationships by Daena Thayer. 04:35 Sibling relationship is the first peer relationship by Kira Dorrian. 05:53 How to prepare your kids for sibling rivalry? 12:02 Problem solving with children. 15:28 Teaching your child active listening. 20:01 Doing what’s best, not the easiest. 23:23 Problem solving in school. 25:55 How to deal with conflict as children grow older. 30:52 Social exclusion in schools and the calendar of character traits.

If you’ve been a parent for a while, or maybe even if you haven’t, you probably saw an article on Holding Space making the rounds of online communities a few years ago.  In the article the author, Heather Plett, describes how she and her siblings were able to hold space for their dying mother in her final days because a palliative care nurse held space for them. The article outlined some principles of holding space, and I think it really resonated with a lot of people – possibly because so many of us wish we had been held in that way, and we find ourselves trying to hold space for others in that way without a lot of guidance or support. I kept that article in the back of my mind, and last year I took Heather’s 9-month in-depth course on holding space, and she’s just released a book called The art of holding space: A practice of love, liberation, and leadership.  In this episode we discuss what it means to hold space for others as parents, and how to raise our children to be able to hold space for others.   Links mentioned in the episode The Art of Holding Space: A Practice of Love, Liberation, and Leadership (Affiliate link). The Centre for Holding Space Website [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen  00:03 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us.   Jen  00:59 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. If you've been a parent for a while, or maybe even if you haven't, you probably saw an article on holding space making the rounds of online communities a few years ago. In the article the author Heather Plett describes the death of her mother and how she and her siblings were able to hold space for her mother, because a palliative care nurse was holding space for them. The article outlines some principles of holding space. And I think it really resonated with a lot of people possibly because so many of us wish that we had been held in the way that in that way. And we find ourselves trying to hold space for others in that way without a lot of guidance and support.   Jen  01:38 And so, I kept that article in the back of my mind. And then last year, I took Heather's nine-month in depth course on holding space. And she's just released a book called The Art of Holding Space: A Practice of Love, Liberation and Leadership that she's here with us to discuss today. Welcome, Heather.   Heather  01:52 Thank you, Jen. It's good to be here.   Jen  01:55 And we should mention we were just chatting beforehand. Heather was mentioning her voice is a little raspy today because she's in the middle of recording the book for the audio edition. So that should hopefully be available very soon. And I also just want to mention before we get started that we may mentioned today, some topics that might be difficult for some people to listen to. These could include the topics of suicide and stillbirth. And so, we're not going to delve deeply into them. But if you're in a place where you would find hearing about these topics, any more than I just mentioned them any disturbing to you in any way, you might want to consider listening at a time when you feel well resourced, or perhaps with a friend.   Jen  02:29 So that said, Heather, I wonder if you could start by getting us on the same page, and maybe just helping us to understand what does it mean to hold space for someone?     Heather  02:38 Well, holding space is really what we do when we show up for somebody without trying to control the outcome of whatever they're going through, without placing our judgement on them or projecting our own narrative on them. It's really trying to hold them in a way that is fully supportive of the journey that they're going on and giving them the autonomy to be going through their own journey.   Jen  03:01 Okay, and so you describe that as structure, kind of three nested bowls, right? Can you help us to picture those bowls and what that's made of?   Heather  03:10 Sure. So, I've been evolving this concept of being the bowl for people and being the bowl is really about supporting somebody through their liminal space, I talk a lot about liminal space as the journey they're going through. And they're in transformation, really, between some old story and a new story. And in the middle of that they need some kind of containment, some support, as they kind of deconstruct their old narrative, and get ready to evolve into the new narrative. And so, the bowl really evolved as the primary metaphor kind of for explaining that. And I've developed this three-layered bowl, initially, it was just one layer, but with time, and the more I taught it, I recognize them, some other qualities were needed. So, in the three layers, and the inside is what you're offering to the person, you're holding space, and there's a number of qualities there. And then what guides you your kind of internal guidance system of what's guiding how you hold space. And then what supports you is the outer layer of the bowl.   Jen  04:10 Okay, and what are some of the really key characteristics of maybe we'll start with the internal layer, and then move to the external layers as we continue the conversation. And so, what are some of those key characteristics of that inner layer?   Heather  04:22 Well, some of those things are compassion and connection is really offering you know, love and compassion to the other person. There's also selective guidance. And I use the qualifier selective in front of some of these quite intentionally because I want to really help people understand that it's, it's not giving them tons of guidance, but it's being using your discernment to pick only the little pieces of guidance that they need. You mentioned the palliative care nurse, for example. And she came with a little bit of guidance to help us understand the process of mum's dying really is what we were supporting. And she just gave us you know, one or two handouts kind of and a little bit of information, she didn't walk in with a whole textbook full of guidance on what to expect when a person's dying because that would have overwhelmed us.   Heather  05:10 And then there's also things like selective nonjudgement. And there's another one where I added the word selective in front of. Initially, I was talking about nonjudgement but then I realized there are times when we do need to use our judgement, we need some discernment. For example, if someone comes to us and tells us they've been breaking the law, well, we need a little bit of judgement to support them and making a wise decision to turn themselves into authorities or make reparations for whatever they've done. So, and that's where we come to kind of the middle layer of the bowl. The middle layer is where we're discernment lies, making those good decisions, and intuition using our intuition to sense what's needed in that moment.   Jen  05:52 Okay. And I was just thinking, as you're talking about the idea of offering some support, but not everything that you know about a subject. I think that's so critical in so many aspects of relationships, and even teaching that I've always remembered one of the most effective lectures I ever attended in my undergrad career was it, it was a guest lecture by someone who was talking about schistosomiasis disease, that's, I remember the basics of it. But it was, you know, passed on to people through a worm infection. And he kind of gave us just the amount that we needed to know. And then the Q&A at the end, it became clear that the depth of his knowledge on this topic was incredible. And he had so deliberately curated exactly what we needed to know and didn't attempt to tell us 'Well, everything I know' about schistosomiasis. And it seems as though that kind of resonates with your experience with the palliative care nurse, and she knew so much.   Heather  06:48 Absolutely   Jen  06:48 And she also knew what you needed.   Heather  06:49 Yeah, very much so. And this is where really, the practice, I talk a lot of in my book, and in my work about learning to hold space for yourself, because when we're in that position of holding space for another person, we have to hold ourselves back, sometimes we have to, you know, soothe ourselves so that we won't project our own stuff on to the other person. And you know, and that requires holding back some of our wisdom, because we may know really, really well we've been through the situation they're in, etc. But that's not what they need at that moment. Because if I dump all this knowledge on them, there's a good chance they'll feel a little bit of shame for not knowing as much as we do, they'll feel that you're superior to them or whatever, it's going to turn into a less helpful situation for that person. So like you say, just offering and even sometimes asking what they need, like telling them I do you know, I have some experience in this, would you like to hear from my experience, or just holding back and letting them have their emotional experience first and then saying, you know, once you're ready for it, let's talk a little bit more, I have a few things I'd love to share with you.   Heather  07:58 So, it's using that quality of discernment and caution around not coming in with a dump truck full of knowledge and dumping it on.   Jen  08:06 Right. And so, I want to get back to something that you mentioned very early on in that definition. And that's the concept of liminal space, which is really central to this. Can you just tease apart a little bit? What is liminal space? And what kinds of situations is that refer to?   Heather  08:23 Yeah, so liminal space, it comes from anthropology and in anthropology, there's a term "Limin" which means the space in between. And really what they, the way they started using this term, and defining it was when they were researching cultures, where they would have rituals around some transition points in a person's life. For example, if somebody was coming of age, a young person was emerging into adulthood, they were researching these rituals at these transition points. And notice the threshold ritual was really important part of the ritual was the space between the old story and the new story. So it wasn't just a crossing directly to the new story, that the ritual would include them going into the woods for a vision quest, for example, or going away for some silent time or there was something that marks that time, because there really is this space of emptiness in between what once was and what will be. And the metaphor that I've really adopted for this is the process of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly, because in between, it doesn't go directly from caterpillar to butterfly, it has to go through this chrysalis stage, which is a really, it deconstructs into this messy, this gel apparently inside the chrysalis. And that's kind of reminiscent of what we do when we are transitioning and that it's very vast what this can imply to. It could be when your children are moving away from home or it could be when you're giving birth or changing a job or getting a divorce or there's so many different liminal spaces. I think right now we're kind of globally in this liminal space that the pandemic has kind of thrust on us. We're in between, you know, what we used to know as reality and what we don't yet know and understand.     Jen  10:13 Yeah. And just the breadth of the kinds of circumstances you just described. I mean, this is something that's prevalent throughout our lives. And I was really surprised to see that you quoted in the book and surprised and interested, I guess, that you quoted Franciscan friar and author Richard Rohr, and he described liminal space, I'm going to read his quote, "When you've left the tried and true, but have not yet been able to replace it with anything else. It's when you are finally out of the way. It's when you are between your old comfort zone and any possible new answer. It is no fun." And it's that last part, it is no fun. I was so struck by that because change is the one constant thing in our lives. It's the only thing that we can be sure of. And yet we get so hung up on this search for stability in the search for holding things comfortable and stable. And it's just impossible to do. And I'm wondering, why haven't we developed better skills for dealing with liminal spaces? And I guess implicit in that is the question, why do so many of us learn about this concept through your viral blog posts? And not because this is something that is just handed down to us as a part of our culture?   Heather  11:23 That's a really good question. And I wish I knew a succinct answer for it. I think there's a lot of layers, I think that there's this human nature to just want things cleaned up and not messy. And so, we look for the cleaned-up version of our lives we've created it's really cultural, though, too, especially in Western cultures, I find. I've travelled a fair bit in more developing countries where they were their messiness upfront. Like they don't hide it the way that we do. But we've developed this cultural value around perfectionism around you know, not showing our messes. We don't invite people into our homes when they're messy, we clean up our front yards, I was wrestling this weekend, for example, with my environmentalist daughter wants me to leave the leaves on the grass because it's more environmentally friendly. But I'm noticing my next two neighbors have both cleaned theirs, raked theirs clean...   Jen  12:17 Oh, cause the line.   Heather  12:19 Exactly, I'm wrestling with being the messy yard. And this is the cultural value that we have about being, you know, showing our best front. And I think there's many layers to that, I think some of it is our capitalist culture, we can always buy more comfort, we can always buy more ease, we can buy things to replace the broken things in our lives. And, you know, to some degree, capitalism in the marketing system around it has helped foster that in our culture, because we always need to buy more to replace things and to fill our void, etc. We're not supposed to have uncomfortable lives, we're supposed to buy the newest and most comfortable and, you know, etc. thing and so. So, there's so many layers of complexity. And when I think about even in our classrooms in our school, like, when our kids are in high school, we're pressuring them, what are they going to be when they grow up?   Jen  13:12 In high school? My daughter is getting questions and she's six.   Heather  13:16 They're supposed to have their lives planned out for them. Yeah, like, yeah, it's really kind of ridiculous that we're not talking to them at that stage, about the complexities of life and about how they're going to have to learn to be resilient and weather the storms, and it's not just going to be an easy path to some magical career and this, you know, happy family.   Jen  13:38 Yeah. And it just a couple of points to pull out further and what you said, I'm just thinking of funerals in other countries where, I mean, people are just exposing the rawness of their soul. And funerals here in western countries. I mean, it's very buttoned up and I might escape and maybe there would be a little bit of crying, but you got to keep it. You got to keep that locked down, right?   Heather  14:02 Yeah, no. And we, with my parents have passed, and we tried to do things a little bit counterculturally, actually. And you refer to the palliative care nurse who was there supporting us with mom dying. And one of the things she said, for example, is that you can keep your mom's body in the home as long as you want. You don't have to call the funeral home right away. And it's funny, but that was a surprise to us. Like we just had this assumption that you got to clean up the body right away. And we've built those kinds of, and so we didn't call right away. We kept her body there and let her like her sister and significant family members come and sit with her before we called the funeral home and also with my dad, when he passed, my brother really wanted to be the one to cover the coffin with the dirt shoveled the dirt onto the coffin. And for the rest of us, it felt, oh, that's not something the family should be doing. You know, there's this just this weird cultural, and yet we chose to do it and it turned out to be really, really meaningful practice as a family to do this. So, yeah, we have to mess with convention sometimes to be in the mess of the complexity of life.   Jen  15:10 Yeah. And what you said about your mom and you don't have to call a funeral home right away reminded me of when my daughter was born. And you know, the accepted way is okay, immediately after she's born, she gets whisked away and weighed and checks and all the rest of it. And it was the doula that we hired that said, you know what, you don't have to do that you can request some time before that is done. And so, we did that. And that was such a special memory to me of that period of time when I mean, that's an incredibly profound liminal space in many women's lives.   Heather  15:39 Yeah.   Jen  15:41 And then just, we've talked a little bit about death and I also want to make the point that liminal spaces can happen with changes that we might traditionally think to be positive as well like a new job that you've hoped for over a long period of time. And maybe it puts you in a different role related to people in a different way. And that changes how they see you and how you see them and what you're doing. And it seems as though that's a...

  Parenting brings unconditional love and fulfillment, but what happens when those feelings mix with frustration, exhaustion, and even regret?   In this episode, I speak with Dr. Sarah LaChance Adams, expert in feminist philosophy and maternal ethics, to explore maternal ambivalence - those complex, conflicting emotions many parents experience but rarely discuss openly. Dr. Adams is the author of Mad mothers, bad mothers, and what a "Good" mother would do: The ethics of ambivalence.   What Is Maternal Ambivalence?   As Dr. LaChance Adams explains, drawing from Adrienne Rich's heartbreaking and beautiful description: "Maternal ambivalence is having extreme emotional conflict in one's feelings towards one's children - dealing with intense love and sometimes intense hate, the needs to be very intimate and close to one's children, but also to have a sense that one needs distance."   This complex experience involves both wanting to be near your child and sometimes feeling an urgent need to "get as far as one can from one's child." What makes maternal ambivalence particularly complicated is that it's not just about feelings toward a separate being. There's also a profound sense of self-estrangement because mothers often feel their children are integral to their own identity. As Dr. LaChance Adams notes, "In this sense of struggle, she's also in a struggle with herself and who she feels she is most intimately and deeply."   This episode builds on our recent conversations with Dr. Moira Mikolajczak on Parental Burnout and with Dr. Susan Pollak on Self-Compassion, exploring how we can love our children dearly while feeling torn between that love and our parental role that often requires putting our own needs aside.   Questions this episode will answer Is it normal to feel love and resentment toward my child at the same time? The podcast breaks down what maternal ambivalence means. It's a back-and-forth feeling between deep love and occasional resentment that many mothers feel but rarely talk about. Dr. LaChance Adams explains why these opposite feelings happen together and why they're a normal part of being a parent. You'll also learn how accepting these feelings might make your relationship with your child stronger.   How do gender, race, and socioeconomic status shape the experience of maternal ambivalence? The episode looks at how maternal ambivalence might be different based on your background. It questions whether this is mainly "a middle-class, white phenomenon." We explore Bell Hooks' view that motherhood wasn't seen as the main obstacle for Black women historically. These mixed feelings may show up differently across racial and economic groups.   How does societal pressure shape maternal ambivalence? The episode explains why our society makes these mixed feelings seem shameful instead of normal. Speaking up about them could change how you parent.   What role do cultural expectations and intensive parenting play in shaping parental guilt?We discuss how society's view of total motherly devotion can become "twisted" and hurt both mothers and children. Modern parenting culture expects mothers to always put their children first, at the cost of their own identity. Listen to understand why you might feel guilty and what you can do about it.   How can parents navigate these conflicting emotions in a healthy way? The episode provides both big-picture and personal strategies for dealing with maternal ambivalence. We build on earlier episodes about parental burnout and self-compassion. Discover practical ways to accept all your parenting feelings without shame. These mixed feelings don't have to create guilt and shame. They can form the foundation of a close connection with your child.   What you’ll learn in this episode Discover why maternal ambivalence creates an emotional tug-of-war that goes beyond occasional frustration Maternal ambivalence isn't just feeling tired or annoyed sometimes—it's that deep emotional conflict where you love your child intensely while simultaneously feeling overwhelmed or even resentful. Dr. LaChance Adams explains this powerful contradiction many mothers experience, where you might desperately want your child's bedtime to arrive while also missing them terribly once they're asleep. The podcast dives into why these opposing feelings create such inner turmoil for parents and how understanding this tension is the first step toward parenting with greater peace and authenticity.   We unpack the impact of impossible standards on parental identity and self-worth When society expects perfect motherhood—always patient, always present, always fulfilled by caregiving—it creates a crushing weight on parents' mental health. The episode explores how these unrealistic expectations force many mothers to put their needs "on the back burner," leading to a gradual loss of identity. You'll learn how intensive parenting culture undermines parents' confidence, why the undervaluing of caregiving work affects how mothers see themselves, and practical ways to rebuild your sense of self while still being the parent your child needs.   Learn how maternal ambivalence looks different across parents from different backgrounds The podcast examines Bell Hooks' important insight that for Black women historically, "motherhood would not have been named a serious obstacle to our freedom"—unlike how it's often framed in white, middle-class discussions. You'll discover how factors like race, economic status, and cultural background shape how parents experience and express these mixed feelings about parenthood. The episode challenges the one-size-fits-all approach to understanding parental emotions and offers perspectives that may better reflect your own unique experience.   Discover why parents often keep these mixed feelings hidden and how this silence makes things worse. When mothers in online groups admit they're struggling with parenthood, they're often met with judgment instead of support. The podcast explores why this silencing happens and why breaking this silence is actually the solution. You'll learn how shame around maternal ambivalence creates a dangerous cycle that increases parental stress and guilt, and how honest conversations about these normal feelings can create supportive communities where real parenting challenges can be addressed together.   Move past the limiting idea that self-care is just about "being a better parent." The episode challenges the common message that mothers should take care of themselves only so they can be "better parents." Instead, it explores how mothers deserve to maintain their identity and meet their needs simply because they are human beings with inherent worth beyond their parenting role. You'll discover a more empowering approach to balancing your needs with your child's, practical ways to reclaim parts of yourself that parenting has pushed aside, and how this authentic approach actually creates healthier parent-child relationships in the long run.   Dr. LaChance Adams’ books: Mad Mothers, Bad Mothers, and What a ‘Good’ Mother Would Do: The Ethics of Ambivalence The Maternal Tug: Ambivalence, Identity and Agency    Links to resources and ideas discussed in this episode: Nikesha Elise Williams Mierle Laderman Ukeles Hegel’s Dialectic / Speculative Method Martin Heidegger’s concept of Befindlichkeit / “how you find yourself in the world” Maurice Merleau-Ponty   Jump to highlights 05:03 Maternal ambivalence is, having extreme emotional conflict in one’s feelings towards my [one’s] children. Dealing with intense love and sometimes intense hate, the needs to be very intimate and close to one’s children or one’s child, but also to have a sense that one needs to get distance to have strong feelings. 08:34 I’m thinking about Bell Hooks’ work, and she had said, “but had Black women voiced their own views on motherhood, it would not have been named a serious obstacle to our freedom as women, racism, availability of jobs, lack of skills, or education would have been top of the list, but not motherhood.” I’m wondering, is maternal ambivalence a middle-class, White phenomenon? Or do you see it in other places as well? 11:27 If a woman lives in a culture where there’s an intense romanticization of the mother-child relationship, and she feels that she can’t express any kind of conflicted emotion at all. And then when you have these things piling on top of each other, then you start to see it gets more and more and more intensified. The more these things compound, the less a woman is able to reflect on these emotions, think about them, share them get relief, get that kind of distance that the feelings are telling her. 15:41 The idea that maybe, just maybe, this whole guilt thing and the whole ambivalence thing is a product of our culture, where, on one hand, women are required to be these productive citizens who contribute to the capitalist economy, and on the other hand, were supposed to give our all to our child and mother intensively. 18:34 One thing I want to really draw out here is the idea that women ourselves are very often the ones that police this. It’s sort of like patriarchy, it’s not just men saying, well, this is your role, and this is what you’re going to do. Women are just as responsible for the socialization of this idea. 20:54 “How could you say that you don’t love being a mother at every moment?” And I think I mean, you’re already stating the solution, you know, we have these brave women coming forward, saying that they don’t always love it. 29:18 She [Simone de Beauvoir] writes about devotion and the devotion of the mother, and how this can be a very twisted thing and how, oftentimes, mother’s devotion is really something that can be very awful for herself and her child because it can be a replacement for her having anything else in her life. And it can become a sort of twisted obligation for both of them. And, you know, a sort of martyrdom…   References Collins, Patricia Hill. 1993. The meaning of motherhood in Black culture and Black mother–daughter relationships. In Double stitch: Black women write about mothers and daughters, ed. Patricia Bell-Scott, Beverly Guy-Sheftall, Jacqueline Jones Royster, Janet Sims-Wood, Miriam DeCosta-Willis, and Lucie Fultz. New York: Harper Perennial. Gubi, P.M. & Chapman, E. (2019). An exploration of the ways in which feelings of ‘maternal ambivalence affect some women. Crisis and Loss. Retreived from: https://chesterrep.openrepository.com/bitstream/handle/10034/622560/Full%20text%20Maternal%20Ambivalence%20research%20paper.pdf?sequence=3 Henderson, S. (2018). The blurring effect: An exploration of maternal instinct and ambivalence. Unpublished Master of Arts by Research thesis, Kent, UK: University of Kent. Retrieved from: https://kar.kent.ac.uk/66794/1/211The%20Blurring%20Effect%20An%20Exploration%20of%20Maternal%20Instinct%20and%20Ambivalence.pdf Henderson, A., Harmon, S., & Newman, H. (2016). The price mothers pay, even when they are not buying it: Mental health consequence of idealized motherhood. Sex Roles 74, 512-526. hooks, bell. 1990. Homeplace: A site of resistance. In Yearning: Race, gender, and cultural politics. Boston: South End Books. LaChance Adams, S. (2014). Mad mothers, bad mothers, & what a ‘good’ mother would do: The ethics of ambivalence. New York, NY: Columbia University Press. LaCance Adams, S., Cassidy, T., & Hogan, S. (Eds). The maternal tug: Ambivalence, identity, and agency. Branford, ON: Demeter. Newman, H.D., & Henderon, A.C. (2014). The modern mystique: Institutional mediation of hegemonic motherhood. Sociological Inquiry 84(3), 472-491. Rich, A. (1994). Of woman born: Motherhood as an experience and institution. New York, NY: Norton. Takseva, T. (2017). Mother love, maternal ambivalence, and the possibility of empowered mothering. Hypatia 32(1), 152-168.