Your Parenting Mojo - Respectful, research-based parenting ideas to help kids thrive

  Adrianna and Tim had read all the parenting books. (And I mean ALL the books.)   But NOTHING seemed to be working.   They were still feeling frustrated with their kids on a very regular basis.   And their kids were fighting what seemed like every second of the day.   They joined the Parenting Membership last May, and the transformation our community has seen in them has been profound.   The shift started after we had a consult about their youngest daughter’s difficult behavior, which we realized was a sign of her unmet needs. (I do these 1:1 (or 1:2!) consults on a regular basis for members when I see them struggling with an issue that just can’t be addressed in writing.)   Ideas percolated. They increased the amount of 1:1 time they were spending with her, doing things she liked to do.   They attended a couple of group coaching calls and we talked more about their specific situation.   Things improved a bit.   But then it all came to a head when Adrianna posted in the community about her children’s fighting, which had become more intense than ever.   A whole lot of parents chimed in with ideas to support them, which are grounded in the ideas I’d previously discussed with her - but sometimes you need to hear things in a different way, with stories from parents who have just recently been through the same difficult stuff you’re experiencing, and they made it out the other side.   Suddenly something clicked for Adrianna. She started to see her children’s needs in a way she hadn’t before, and she started having super explicit conversations with them about their needs, and also her needs.   And then the magic started to happen, firstly in interactions between either Adrianna or Tim and their oldest child, Bodhi:   Then the two children began using these problem solving tools between themselves. All of a sudden these two children who had literally been tearing each other’s hair out could identify their own needs, and each other’s needs, and find solutions that work for both of them. And they’re five and three years old!   And all of this happened in what Adrianna calls the most supportive, least judgmental corner of the internet:   I invited Adrianna and Tim to tell us about their journey on the podcast.   Their response - delivered in unison - when I asked them: “So you’d read all the books, and you had so many doubts that ANYTHING could work for you…so why on earth did you join the membership?” was priceless.   Parenting Membership    If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out.   Joint the waitlist and we'll let you know when enrollment reopens in May 2026. Click the banner to learn more.     Jump to highlights: 01:46 Overview of Adrianna and Tim's membership journey. 04:18 An open invitation to join the Parenting Membership. 06:06 Growing up in a dysfunctional household was not uncommon for either Adrianna or Tim. 08:57 Adrianna and Tim believed they were the best parents of the year until they began to sink. 10:10 The anger and irrationality that Tim displays toward Adrianna as a result of his frustrations. 11:03 How Adrianna was managing her mental health issues while also navigating the challenges presented by her two challenging children. 12:45 Tim and Adrianna are frustrated since they've tried everything to make parenthood work. 14:04 The Parenting Membership was the only hope for Adriana and Tim. 18:07 The significant impact on our child when we step down from their level. 19:15 How Adrianna was able to meet the needs of both of her children at the same moment. 22:14 Bodie and Remy practicing the ways in which both of their needs can be fulfilled. 25:27 The result of Adriana and Tim's child's unmet demand for his father. 26:49 Tim’s experience in learning different methods of parenting and his perspective on whether dads should really do this job. 28:13 Adriana and Tim's positive outlook for the future. 31:21 How the membership and tools help Adrianna and Tim strengthen their marriage 32:47 Adrianna’s shift from not seeing her needs as valid to having the confidence in understanding what her needs are.  

Recently someone posted a question in one of my communities: “Is it really so wrong to want my child to just LISTEN to me sometimes?  It seems like such a no-no in gentle parenting circles, and I’m worried that my child is growing up to be entitled and won’t know how to respect authority when they really HAVE to.” Parent Chrystal gave such a beautiful and eloquent response to this question that I asked her to come back on the show (her first visit was last year) to talk us through how she approaches getting her (three!  spirited!) children to listen to her…and what tools she uses instead.And this doesn’t end up creating entitled children who refuse to cooperate with any authority figure; in fact, her most spirited child was called a “conscientious and rule-abiding upstanding model student” by her teacher (which just about made Chrystal laugh out loud). Chrystal has been on this respectful parenting journey for a while now, but I learned during this interview that she first interacted with me in the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop, where she started transforming a lot of the battles she was having with her children into a collaborative, cooperative relationship.   Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you. Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Jump to highlights 02:37 Reasons we get triggered when our child isn’t listening to us. 03:38 An open invitation to join the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop. 04:50 Chrystal's manifestation that her parenting is effective. 06:06 Saying NO to our child isn’t necessarily the right answer. 06:57 Challenges that Chrystal had as someone who was brought up in a religious family. 07:58 At a young age, Chrystal was responsible for the needs of her mother and siblings. 09:58 How resilience will play a big role in our children. 10:50 Impacts on our child for having a lot of control and compliance. 11:20 Chrystal’s transition from being controlled to having freedom and autonomy. 12:26 As a result of having a strong-willed children, Chrystal experiences a lot pushback and challenges. 15:08 When to set limits and boundaries to our children. 18:04 Ways to navigate our younger child when we need to take a pause in a situation. 19:07 The difference between setting limits and boundaries. 21:15 The importance of respectful parenting. 23:09 Using body cues instead of saying NO. 25:30 Introduction to Problem Solving Conversation: Nonjudgmental Observation 26:33 Finding solutions that is grounded in meeting our needs, and the needs of our children as well. 31:02 Our children's resistance creates a "US VS. THEM" scenario. 36:39 The unique needs of having multiple children. 37:47 The lessons that Chrystal learned from the book called Siblings Without Rivalry. 41:58 White presenting child plays a big role in changing the systems. 45:38 Chrystal’s children showing their amazing empathy and respect for one another.

“On average, authoritative parents spanked just as much as the average of all other parents.  Undoubtedly, some parents can be authoritative without using spanking but we have no evidence that all or even most parents can achieve authoritative parenting without an occasional spank.”   I was fascinated by this statement, since authoritative parenting is the best style.  We know it’s the best, right?   I mean, everyone says it is.  Including me and who was the co-author on this paper this statement comes from?  None other than Dr. Diana Baumrind, creator of the Parenting Styles (although they weren’t called that then; they were originally called the Models of Parental Control.  Just to make sure we’re on the same page here, I’m going to say that again: Dr. Diana Baumrind, who created the parenting styles/model of parental control, says you can’t achieve the parenting style that has the ‘best’ outcomes for children without an occasional spank.   So in this episode we dig pretty deeply into what makes up the parenting styles, and what Dr. Baumrind and others found about the effectiveness of these styles, and what impacts they had on children.  (And I have to warn you now, the samples sizes we’re looking at to ‘prove’ that authoritative is the best parenting style are going to make your stomach churn.)   Questions this episode will answer What are the parenting styles that Dr. Diana Baumrind identified? Dr. Baumrind originally identified three parenting styles in her groundbreaking research: Authoritarian (high control, low warmth) Permissive (low control, high warmth) Authoritative (high control, high warmth). Later, other researchers added a fourth style—Uninvolved or Neglectful parenting (low control, low warmth). This completes the two-by-two grid framework we know today. The episode explores what Baumrind actually meant by these categories. They might not be helpful for modern parents trying to build healthy relationships with their children.   What's the difference between parenting styles and parental control? Were they originally the same thing? Many parents don't realize that what we now call "parenting styles" began as Dr. Baumrind's study of "Models of Parental Control." This shows that her research focused on how parents exercise authority over children. She wasn't looking to describe all possible parenting approaches. Most experts - including me! - just replicate what everyone else says: Authoritative is the best parenting style. But when we dig deeper we find that authoritative might not be as great as most experts claim.   Why does everyone say authoritative parenting is the best style? Authoritative parenting is widely promoted as the gold standard. It supposedly balances firm boundaries with emotional warmth.  Decades of research have shown that authoritative is the best of the three (later four) parenting styles that Dr. Baumrind identified.  But there’s no evidence that these are the only possible parenting styles.  Dr. Baumrind herself found another style that she called ‘harmonious’ but she chose not to explore it. Researchers have just accepted that there are only four styles. Within these four, authoritative is often (but not always) best for children.   How large were the sample sizes in Dr. Baumrind's original parenting styles research? The sample sizes in Dr. Baumrind's original research were shockingly small. You might then question how such an influential idea became so widely accepted on such limited evidence. This is a perfect example of why we should critically examine even the most established parenting theories.   Is authoritative best in all cultures and circumstances? Authoritative parenting is often presented as universally ideal. The episode examines how different cultural contexts value different parenting approaches. What works well in one cultural setting might not transfer to another. An emphasis on authoritative parenting often reflects Euro-centric values and assumptions. The podcast explores this cultural dimension and challenges the one-size-fits-all recommendation.   What alternative approaches to parent-child relationships does the episode suggest? The episode introduces alternatives that move beyond the control-based framework of the traditional parenting styles. We explore approaches that honor both parent and child needs. We don't have to default to authoritarian control or permissive lack of boundaries. These alternative frameworks offer a more nuanced understanding of the parent-child relationship.   What you'll learn in this episode The widely accepted "authoritative” parenting style might not actually be the best approach Dr. Diana Baumrind created the parenting 'styles.' Surprisingly, she thought authoritative parents should spank their children. We'll describe the 2x2 grid of parenting styles, which describe parents' warmth and control. Each one describes a particular parenting style and how parents using that style interact with their kids. The original research describing the parenting styles used very small sample sizes. Dr. Baumrind deliberately tried to recruit only middle class White children in her hometown of Berkeley, CA in the 1960s. Dr. Baumrind wanted to explore how parents controlled their children, not what parenting style is best for children. Cultural context shapes how we interact with our children. This challenges the one-size-fits-all recommendation of authoritative parenting We'll look at alternative approaches to parent-child relationships. These honor both your needs and your child's needs without relying on control-based frameworks   If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you. Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration.   I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Jump to highlights 01:33 Introduction to today’s topic 04:05 Influential figures like Dr. Larzelere and Dr. Baumrind supported spanking within authoritative parenting. 16:19 Traditional parenting expects child compliance, emphasizing authority over autonomy, and conformity over individuality. 28:30 Dr. Baumrind's parenting styles theory categorizes parenting into two extremes, neglecting the middle ground of "harmonious parenting." 38:30 Harmonious parenting emphasizes reasoning and mutual understanding while behavioral compliance can create mixed messages about control and values, reflecting broader societal power dynamics. 46:19 Parenting styles must adapt to cultural diversity and consider alternative parenting goals, emphasizing mutual understanding and meeting children's needs. 49:46 Understanding and meeting the needs of children and parents can eliminate the need for punishment.   References: Baumrind, D. (1966). Effects of authoritative parental control on child behavior. Child Development 887-907. Baumrind, D. (1996). A blanket injunction against disciplinary use of spanking is not warranted by the data. Pediatrics 98(4) 828-831. Baumrind, D. (1971). Current patterns of parental authority. Developmental Psychology Monograph 4(1, Part 2), 1-103. Baumrind, D. (1971). Note: Harmonious parents and their preschool children. Developmental Psychology 4(1), 99-102. Baumrind, D. (1983). Rejoinder to Lewis’s reinterpretation of parental firm control effects: Are authoritative families really harmonious? Psychological Bulletin 94(1), 132-142. Baumrind, D. (1996). The discipline controversy revisited. Family Relations 45(4), 405-414. Baumrind, D. (2013). Is a pejorative view of power assertion in the socialization process justified? Review of General Psychology 17(4), 420-427. Baumrind, D., Larzelere, R.E., Owens, E.B. (2010). Effects of preschool parents’ power assertive patterns and practices on adolescent development. Parenting Science and Practice 10, 157-201. Cowan, P.A., Cowan, C.P., Weinstein, R., Owens, E. (2020). In Memoriam: Diana B Baumrind. University of California. Retrieved from https://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/in-memoriam/files/diana-baumrind.html Darling, N., & Steinberg, L. (1993). Parenting style as context: An integrative model. Psychological Bulletin 113(3), 487-496. Greenspan, S. (2006). Rethinking “harmonious parenting” using a three-factor discipline model. Child Care in Practice 12(1), 5-12. Garcia, O.F., Lopez-Fernandez, O., & Serra, E. (2021). Raising Spanish children with an antisocial tendency: Do we know what the optimal parenting style is? Journal of Interpersonal Violence 36 (13-14), 6117-6144. Gross, A.K. (2021, October 18). How White supremacy culture shows up in our families +practices for how we can dismantle it. Mistress Syndrome. Retrieved from https://mistresssyndrome.com/2021/10/18/how-white-supremacy-culture-shows-up-in-our-families-practices-for-how-we-can-dismantle-it/ Larzelere, R.E., & Baumrind, D. (2010). Are spanking injunctions scientifically supported? Law & Contemporary Problems 73, 57. Lewis, C.C. (1981). The effects of parental firm control: A reinterpretation of findings. Psychological Bulletin 90(3), 547-563.

In her book Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home, Toko-pa Turner talks about the disconnection we feel from others, as well as from our own selves, because of the experiences we’ve had in our childhood.  While Toko-pa’s childhood was traumatic by any definition, even those of us who didn’t experience severe trauma were told - either verbally or non-verbally: You’re not enough.  You’re not good enough.   Or even: You’re too much.And we shut off that part of us, whatever it was.  Our sense of joy, our creativity, our need for autonomy.   We set aside those needs so we could be accepted by our family, whose love we craved more than anything in the world.But that doesn’t mean we need to always live our lives in this way.  We can accept the pain and suffering we’ve experienced, and incorporate that into new, more whole ways of being in the world.  A big part of this is finding a new relationship with our needs - seeing them, understanding them, being willing to articulate them.  Being willing to ask for help in meeting our needs - from our children, our partners, and our communities.  Toko-pa points out that our culture teaches us that the giver is in the position of strength; they are rich and secure and don’t need anyone’s help.  The receiver is the weak, poor, needy one (the whole thing smacks of femininity, doesn’t it?).  So to be in the position of strength we give and give and give until we don’t have anything left.But we have needs too, and we deserve to have these met, and to invite others to help us meet them - and this episode helps us to get started.I want to remind you of a couple of upcoming opportunities if you see that your own needs are not being met right now.   Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits   If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.   Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Toko-Pa Turner's Book Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home (Affiliate Link).   Jump to highlights 02:18 We create separation because we worry that we won’t be acceptable to the world. 02:50 An open invitation to join the free Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits Workshop. 05:01 Toko-Pa’s quest for belonging leaves her hungry for her mother's love and recognition. 06:38 Our first experiences of not belonging come at the hands of our families 08:51 Due to the dogma we have lived, we learn to hide, dismiss, or separate our feelings that are not valued 12:03 The desire to teach our child a lesson comes from our own pain, resulting from our own trauma. 13:25 Women are raised with extensive cultural history programming that dictates how a proper lady should behave. 18:54 The Death Mother is an archetype that represents a mother who takes control of her children's narrative lives in order to overcome her own traumas. 24:12 Being a mother has no worth in our culture, because they live to serve their children. 26:50 We gain a sense of belonging when we can help others. 33:43 The fear and shame associated with being an imposition on others. 37:44 You burden people when you show that you are in pain and in need. 42:00 Being seen is a paradox. It's the thing that we want more than anything, but we fear it more than anything too. 48:22 The purpose of our dreams. 54:53 Belonging yourself to those who need you - both human and other-than-human.

I don’t know about you, but I spent a LOT of time thinking about my birth plan before Carys was born.  I mean, that thing went through multiple iterations as I read new books about the birth process and thought about what I wanted mine to be like.   And I got lucky; we didn’t stray too far from the plan (except that that whole ‘urge to push’ thing?  Well I never felt that.  It seemed like she was quite happy where she was.  Perhaps that explains why she enjoys being wrapped in fluffy blankets so much?)   So I put all this effort into what the Big Day would be like, and practically zero into what life would be like afterward.   I mean, we got the nursery ready without realizing that she wasn’t going to spend any time in it at all for the first three months.   And the whole visitors thing - well that didn’t even cross my mind.   I guess I just assumed that people would come and visit, because that’s what people do after you have a baby.   But most of the time I didn’t want visitors!   I spent a good chunk of the first 10 days in tears.   (In fact my husband and I had a mini-celebration at bedtime on the 10th day because it was the first time I hadn’t cried since she was born.)   Sometimes I was able to get dressed and greet people…other times I was curled up in bed crying while my husband did the entertaining.   The idea of saying “no visitors yet please” simply didn’t cross my mind.   That’s what we discuss in today’s episode with Renee Reina of The Mom Room.  She was lucky enough to have her Mom living close by when she had her baby, who became her gatekeeper - friends and family would check in with Renee’s Mom before coming over.   Renee was able to create the calm, peaceful environment at home that she wanted to bring baby into - and re-engage with the world on her own terms, when she was ready.   In this episode we talk about how to make those early days of motherhood work for you and your family - no matter what social conventions say are the right things to do.   Those first weeks at home may be the hardest you’ll ever experience If you’re expecting a baby or have one under the age of one, the Right From The Start course is here to help.  I run it with the amazing Hannah and Kelty of Upbringing, who bring a whole lot of expertise and training on respectful parenting, along with expertise on raising siblings and ‘spirited’ children, in addition to the scientific research on these topics that you expect from me.   In the course we’ll give you concrete strategies to: Get the essential sleep you (all) need Create a secure attachment & navigate big feelings Support gross motor development & independent play (freeing up time for you!) Prepare for and thrive with siblings And so much more!   Parents who have taken the course tell us that there’s nothing else like it available: this is the only course that helps you support baby’s development, while holding your needs as equally important, and helping you to meet these as well.   Click the image to learn more about Right From The Start.         Jump to highlights 01:36 Introduction of episode 06:37 What was birth like for Renee 13:14 How was it like to navigate people who want to see the baby 21:10 Renee’s routine in taking care of the baby 29:22 White supremacy and capitalism 30:42 Maternal gatekeeping 31:28 Murder tendencies during postpartum 38:26 Advice for parent afterbirth 41:47 Realization during the episode   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"]   Jen Lumanlan  00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be   Jenny  00:09 so do you get tired of hearing the same old interest in podcast episodes? I don't really But Jen thinks you might. I'm Jenny, a listener from Los Angeles, testing out a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it in context for you as well. So you can decide whether and how to use this new information. I listen because parenting can be scary and it's reassuring to know what the experts think. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. You can also join the free Facebook group to continue the conversation. Over time you might get sick of hearing me read this intro so come and record one yourself. You can read from a script gents provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to your parenting mojo.com forward slash record the intro. I can't wait to hear yours.   Jen Lumanlan  01:26 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're going to look at another topic that we can file under things I'd never given a moment's thought about before Carys was born, which is what those early days at home were going to be like. Looking back on it, I have really have no idea why my preparation for her birth literally stopped at her birth, and didn't give a moment's thought to what would happen even in the immediate days afterwards. And I have to say, I felt really lost. I cried every day for the first 10 days. And on day four, it was pretty much continual from start to finish. And thank goodness, my good friend, Michelle had told me there would be a lot of hormone rebalancing on that day, so I knew it was coming. Otherwise, I would have thought I was actually falling apart. Things did get a bit better over the following days. And on day 10, my husband and I had a little celebration at bedtime because it was the first day since she had been born that I didn't cry. If you're expecting a baby in the coming months, or if you have one under the age of one, then the right from the start course is designed to give you the information you need to go from just surviving each day to truly thriving. In this course that I run with Hannah and Kelty of upbringing you'll find information on topics like getting the sleep you both needed to function, making choices about feeding, supporting development, independent play, navigating the difficult sibling relationship if you already have an older child, and so much more. Whether you're brand new at this parenting thing, or if you have one or more children already, you know things have to be different his time around. The right from the start course will get you out of the midnight googling about all the things that might be wrong with your child and into a sense of calm and confidence that you've got this. You'll meet an amazing group of parents who are on this journey as well, figuring this stuff out alongside you. With support from Hannah and Kelty as well as me, you'll even be able to join group coaching calls to get all of your questions answered. Parents who have taken the course say firstly, they had no idea that they even needed these group coaching calls, but they really did. And secondly, there's no resource out there that considers them to be just as important as their baby in this relationship. And as we'll hear about from my guest today, all of the attention is on the mother when the baby's on the way, and as soon as the baby is here, the mother is relegated to the background. And their only role is to provide a suitable environment for the baby. And right from the start, we hold you to be just as important and valued person as your baby, and that your baby actually learns really important things when you hold this to be true. Enrollment for right from the start is open now until Wednesday, April 13. And sliding scale pricing is available. And so my guest today in our sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode is Renee Reina of the Mom Room. Welcome, Renee. It's so great to have you here.   Renee  04:24 Thank you for having me. Yeah.   Jen Lumanlan  04:26 So what was this transition from not being a parent to being a parent like for you?   Renee  04:31 It was a lot. So I had my son. He's three now. I had him when I was 34 years old. So I had been in grad school living by myself, focusing on myself, setting goals for myself, just focused on those two then having a baby, I took a 12 month maternity leave for my PhD program.   Jen Lumanlan  04:53 Because you're in Canada we should mention.   Renee  04:55 Yes, I am Canadian. I know people are always like "12 months?" So, you know, in the first 12 months, I would say things were good. Like, there were lots of things in early postpartum that blew my mind. And that is why I started the blog. I started talking about these things on social media. And then I found “Oh, like, I'm not the only one.” Everyone else thinks the same thing. In the first 12 months, I was very focused on it's just me, it's my son, and my husband was working full time. So I had that mindset going into the 12 month maternity leave that I didn't have anything else to worry about. So that was really nice. And I think something that I wish all moms could experience you know, and have that time to just be like focused on transitioning into motherhood and focusing on your children.   Jen Lumanlan  05:48 Yeah, it's a massive lack, isn't it? With no guarantee of paid leave in the US, if you're lucky enough to work for a big company that offers it, you might get it. I think it was three months when I did it. Many companies are now expanding to six months but many parents take three or four days off and then go back to work and they have to come in the bathrooms cafe or restaurant or something. I mean, it's just horrific.   Renee  06:09 In Canada now, we have the option to extend to 18 months and you If you can split the time with your partner, yeah. So like my husband's self-employed, he's a surgeon. So that's not an option for him. But if you work for a company where you have benefits and insurance, you can split the maternity leave or parental leave with your partner. So yeah, it breaks my heart to know that not everyone has that as an option.   Jen Lumanlan  06:33 Okay? And so what was birth like for you?   Renee  06:37 So I was induced at 38 weeks because Milo was growing fine and then he kind of plateaued. So the thinking was, “let's get him out in the real world, and you can feed him, and then he'll, you know, grow up outside of your uterus.” So I was induced at 38 weeks. And I have to say, the labor and delivery part was pretty good. Like, I don't really have any complaints. I had my husband there. My sister was with me. The scariest part for me was the epidural. To be honest, yeah.   Jen Lumanlan  07:12 And Did it meet your expectations? Was it the same kind of birth that people have on TV or?   Renee  07:17 No, not at all. So it's so funny, because that's something that I talk about because I think a lot of moms feel shame for not feeling this like overwhelming sensation of love and bond. This bond between their babies as soon as they give birth, and that was me, to be honest. When Milo was born, they put him on my chest, and I was literally just like, impartial, like, I was neutral. I was just like, "oh, okay, so this is the little person that was inside of me," like I had no connection. And it really took a while for me to build that connection. And now that he's three years old and he's developing a little personality, like, I find the older he got the more I fall in love with him. And you know, seeing him as his own little person, like it just grew. So it's something that not a lot of people talk about. And they feel shame, if they don't feel that at their birth. And I did not have a traumatic labor and delivery, as many people do. I think a lot of people have that expectation going into labor and delivery. And then when it's not there, they think there's something wrong with them. And the same goes for early postpartum. A lot of people have a low or depressed mood. Some people have postpartum depression. And so it's like this conflicting society is telling you that you should be the happiest you've ever been. And this is the best time of your life. But you don't feel that. And if society is saying that, and that's what everyone else is showing on social media and on TV and, you know, in movies, are you really going to speak up about not being the happiest you've ever been? Because, you know, you're afraid of being judged. And people thinking that? “Oh, she must not like being a mom,” or, you know, “she's not fit to be a mom.” So yeah, it's a problem. And this is why I speak out about things like this, because every time I do, the response is overwhelming with people who are like, "Wow, me too." And, you know, I just love that people can see my content, read all the comments and be like, "Oh, my God, this is such a common thing."   Jen Lumanlan  09:30 Yeah, and you brought me back to the moment when Carys was put on my chest as well. And we have the very first picture of her that was taken. It was her on my chest. And my eyes are screwed up because I'm crying. And the thought that's in my mind is, well, I don't hate you. Because I had a difficult relationship with my mom, I was fully prepared to not love her coming out. And I was fortunate as well, and had a relatively medically easy birth, and had absolutely no idea how I was going to feel, and so to have it be neutral was a win for me. That was a real win. And then yeah, absolutely. Those first 10 days, I was so lucky. Actually, a Canadian friend told me about the day four hormone shifts. And I didn't stop crying the entire day. And if she hadn't told me that, I mean, where is my doctor on this? Where is all of the support we're supposed to have to help us understand what's coming? If she hadn't told me that, I would have thought there is something deeply wrong with me because I cannot stop crying, and I think on day 10, my husband and I had a little celebration at the end of the day because I hadn't cried for the first time.   Renee  10:26 And to speak about the crying, which I don't know why this like, left my memory for the first week, every day at 7pm. I would just cry uncontrollably.   Jen Lumanlan  10:39 Oh, wow.   Renee  10:40 And I remember thinking, you know, I kept going to these doctor's appointments so that they could measure Milo's head and stuff. And I was like, what about me? Like, I just gave birth, and I can't even sit in the doctor's waiting room. I can't sit down because I'm in pain, but I'm going to bring my baby there. And everyone's gonna, like, you know, “oh, like a baby.” And then they're going to measure his head, and check his testicles, and whatever. And I'm just sitting there like, okay, and I remember my doctor happened to be a young mother herself. She had young kids, and she looked at me in the appointment, and she said, "How are you doing?" And she had a resident with her, and I just broke down crying. Like if she hadn't just taken the time to be like, "How are you doing?" And looking at me in my eyes. I probably wouldn't have said anything. Yeah, And you know, I am very self-aware and understand, you know, feelings of anxiety and things like that. So I can imagine what most people go through and are not able to verbalize to their partners, family, or friends when they're going through a difficult time. And I remember her saying, you know, it's really common for the first couple of weeks when the sun goes down for women to start crying, because it's like, scary. You know, your support person has left for the day. You are kind of like relaxing the baby sleeping hoepfully. Now you have time to kind of like, let everything out. It was so interesting. And luckily for me, it ended up going away after the week. But yeah, I'll never forget every 7pm jeopardy would start and I'm just crying.   Jen Lumanlan  12:25 And it wasn't because the questions were so bad.   Renee  12:28 Oh, yeah.   Jen Lumanlan  12:30 Yeah, it reminds me actually of a study I read. And I'm not going to be able to quote this precisely. And it was old, which you'll understand why this is important in a second, but it said something along the lines of was "the biggest predictor of whether doctors,” and of course, it means male doctors, “would provide appropriate care to mothers after a birth was whether or not their wife had a baby."   Renee  12:50 Interesting     Jen Lumanlan  12:51 It had nothing to do with their training. It was whether their wife, and of course, assuming a cisgender heterosexual partnership had a baby. And so that I think that just speaks to the complete inadequacy of preparation that doctors get in terms of seeing as a complete set as a unit. And that it's not just all about the baby. But we're important to in those early days when everybody wants to come and see the baby. That was another challenging period for me. What was that like for you? How did you navigate that?   Renee  13:20 This is my favorite topic to talk about. And it always blows up on TikTok when I talk about this topic. So when I was pregnant, in the days leading up to labor and delivery, I suddenly had this feeling like I didn't really want people at the hospital for sure. So I think it was like my mom and my dad came and visited Milo quickly and then, and my sister was there because she was in the delivery room. Then I went home. My mom was always around. She lived down the street at that time, which was amazing. And my mom was like my chosen support person. I wanted my mom there in my head. I had Milo on a Friday. My husband was back at work on Monday. So my mom was always there, you know, helping with everything. And so, she was kind of like my gatekeeper. Because she would be like, "Do you want people to come over?" I had Milo in my hometown. So all my family was there and people wanted to come visit. And I was like, "No, I don't want anybody in the house." I was lucky that my mom was kind of the gatekeeper, like having to answer to people. So I didn't have people texting me. I didn't have to say like, "Oh, I'm not really feeling up to it or like make excuses." She was the one that was staying in contact with everyone. So this lasted for probably a few weeks. You know, every once in a while my mom would check in and I was like, "Nope, I don't want anybody coming." It's really interesting because a few weeks after I gave birth, we had a family function. Someone had passed away, and so I went to the function, and I remember my...

We've already covered a couple of episodes on sleep, including the cultural issues associated with sleep, then more recently we talked with Dr. Chris Winter about his book The Rested Child where we looked at sleep issues in older children.   But if you have a young child who isn't sleeping well, from the baby stage all the way up to about preschool, this episode is for you!  My guest is Macall Gordon, senior lecturer in the Department of Psychology at Antioch University Seattle, and who has studied young children's sleep for 20 years.  She's particularly interested in the intersection between children's temperament and their sleep, and how parents of the children she calls 'little livewires' can support these children so everyone gets more sleep.   If you have questions about sleep training - particularly when and how to do it - this episode is for you!   And if you're expecting a baby or have one under the age of one (whether this is your first or not!) you might be interested in the Right From The Start course, which is designed to help you get things right for you from the start.  We go in-depth on understanding topics like sleep, feeding, physical, mental, and emotional development, and more - both for baby and for you!   Get all the (research-backed, of course) information you need, plus a supportive community and four group coaching calls during the 8-week course.  Click the banner below to learn more!     Jump to highlights 01:25 Introduction of episode 05:15 Age range of a child to be sleep-trained 16:15 What it's like to be a parent in a sleep training study 17:30 The active ingredient to sleep coaching 29:00 The differences of how babies sleep through the night 37:20 Only one method in sleep training the child 40:21 Limit setting disorder 48:54 Realization on the episode   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan  00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so   Jenny  00:09 Do you get tired of hearing the same old interest in podcast episodes? I don't really but Jen thinks you might. I'm Jenny, a listener from Los Angeles, testing out a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development but puts it in context for you as well. So you can decide whether and how to use this new information. I listen because parenting can be scary and it's reassuring to know what the experts think. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. You can also join the free Facebook group to continue the conversation. Over time you might get sick of hearing me read this intro so come and record one yourself. You can read from a script Jen provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com/recordtheintro. I can't wait to hear yours.   Jen Lumanlan  01:26 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we are going to be talking about a topic that we have addressed a number of times recently. We're coming back for another go at it from a different angle. We're looking at sleep and specifically this time we're looking at sleep training. Before we do that, I wanted to let you know that I am reopening the course that I ran with Hannah and Kelty from Upbringing in a few weeks and it's called right from the start. And it's really about how to get parenting right for you from the start, rather than that, there is one right way to parent. And so we cover all the essential topics that are really relevant to parenting in baby's first year, from sleeping to feeding to supporting physical, mental and emotional development. But the parents who have taken the course tell us that the part that they really needed that they didn't know they needed was the part that really speaks about "What is my experience as a parent? What are my needs as a parent? And how do I get those met along with meeting my baby's needs as well?" So, the course is designed for both first-time parents as well as those who have a child already and who know that parenting cannot be the same with this child as it has been with previous children because we don't have enough hands to go around. There isn't enough of us to give this child the same experiences our previous children have had. So enrollment for right from the start is open between April 3rd and 13th  and we all start together as a group on Monday, April 18. So, gift certificates are also available, so if a new baby is not in your present or in your future, then you may find that it makes a great gift for somebody if you're going to a shower or potentially an even an early Mother's Day gift for somebody who's important in your life. So if you would like to help somebody in your life to get the right start for them with their baby, then I invite you to go to YourParentingMojo.com/rightfromthestart to learn more. Today I’m here with Macall Gordon, who is the senior lecturer in the Department of Psychology at Antioch University Seattle. And she has been interested in the topic of baby sleep for over 20 years now. And it's a topic that took her back to graduate school in 2001. She's a certified gentle sleep coach at her company, Little Live Wires, as well. And Macall may actually, in addition to obviously being on the same page sartorially with me (we're both here in our navy blue shorts) she may be the best-prepared guest I've ever had on the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. She actually reached out to me and said, "Could I be on the show?" And I said, "Well, I've done a couple of episodes on sleep already. What new angle do you think we could take on this?" and she responded with a long list of topics that really get into the weeds on the research. So if you are the parent of a child who isn't sleeping well and particularly if that child is under a year of age, then do listen up, because today we're going to spend quite a bit of time talking about sleep training, and we'll learn what we know from the research as well as where that research base really lets us down, and what all of that means for struggling parents, particularly parents who have what researchers call a “Difficult Temperament,” but I imagined Macall might call a Little Livewire. So welcome, Macall. It's great to have you here.   Macall  04:16 Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.   Jen Lumanlan  04:18 All right. And so you have been at this for a while now. This is a long time to be interested in baby's sleep. What was it that really drew you to this topic?   Macall  04:28 That's such a good question. I started on this journey back with my first child that I had right at the very start of the internet so it was so early that all the websites that were on the web could fit in a book. It was actually a telephone directory of the internet, so we relied very heavily on books and then all these parenting magazines that you'd see in the pediatricians' offices and the magazines I was noticing that this was the era of critical periods of brain development, right? It's a big deal about the first three years, so important for brain development. And so, they were talking about the importance of responsiveness for brain development and attachment, and everything. And then, literally on the next page, they were saying, but for sleep, you gotta let your baby cry it out. And what I noticed was that the age to start was getting younger and younger. When I first started looking at was six months, and then it was five months, and then it was four months, and I thought, "Boy, this just doesn't totally make sense to me." There must be research to show that this is safe and a good idea. And back then I didn't really have a lot of resources to dig into the research but as the Internet became more and more available, I started poking around. And once I figured out, first of all, what researchers called "crying it out," which was a whole project by itself, once I kind of unlocked the research base, honestly, the more I looked, the less I found. And I kept thinking, "Okay, I'm just not finding it." It's out there. I just haven't found it yet. And even when I went to my very first conference to present my lit review, I was standing there quaking in my boots because I thought there's going to be some massive researcher who's going to come along and just look at me and shake their head and pity, and say, "Oh, honey, didn't you know about the whatever study?" That I had missed some huge piece, but really, what I found is that there wasn't a lot there, and in the ensuing 10 or 15 years, still not much more on this particular question, so many levels we're still in the same boat as we were even 20 years ago.   Jen Lumanlan  06:44 Yeah, and on that issue of the age at which to start sleep training. When I looked at one of your conference posters, and it has the bars showing the age at which the resource or the book or the study recommends sleep training, and the vast majority of them, they're doing a study on children who are aged between six months on the very young end, but usually around 12 months, and like 50 months, right? parents in the real world. Yes, there are a small fraction whose children are not sleeping through the night by then and they need help, but who are most of the parents who are searching for information on sleep training?   Macall  07:19 Right. They are parents of young babies. Yes, that's perhaps one of the most startling findings to me was that the research that we often use to support the need and effectiveness of sleep training in young infants was not even done on infants, but we know very little about how any infants in those studies experienced the intervention for being, you know, so big on precision, sometimes research really misses the boat on development so I think you probably saw, there's one study that had the sample was 4 to 52 months. If you do that math, 52 months is a four-and-a-half-year-old. You can't possibly tell me that a four-and-a-half-year-old experienced that intervention the same way a four-month-old baby did. But the results of that study didn't even parcel things out by age at all. They just reported it for the sample. That's what I knew when we started poking at it and saying, "Okay, what do we really know, in a nuanced, developmentally aware way about sleep training?" It really is a bit of the emperor's new clothes, right? I've consistently gone, why is no one else seeing this? No one else is seeing what I'm seeing here.   Jen Lumanlan  08:32 And so I think that's super important to understand for this topic and for other topics as well. I mean, this is not uncommon in the literature, right? To study a sample that is convenient to you. Maybe those were the babies that the researcher had easy access to, for whatever reason, and they didn't know how to go about analyzing the data, or it wasn't convenient for them to analyze the data in multiple cohorts, maybe there was only one four-month-old and all the rest of us are much older, and they would have had to throw that one child out and then report a much older dataset, and they didn't want to do that. These concerns exist throughout the literature and it's a pervasive problem. What other kinds of disconnects did you find as you're digging into this research?   Macall  09:08 Oh, goodness, well, what we're really talking about is the difference between how researchers characterize effectiveness and then what happens to those findings when they're reported in the real world and the problem is that the findings from research have been expanded to such a level that when you really start looking for nuanced, developmentally appropriate information, it's just not there, so, for example, that study the four to 52 months, some of these don't even say how many infants were in the sample, and then they just say "extinction," which is really what we're talking about here. Extinction is the main focus of, I would say, 99% of the research on sleep interventions. Extinction is basically the idea that whatever you don't pay attention to will go away. The old behavior modification behaviorist idea that what you pay attention to persists and what you ignore goes away, so essentially, crying it out, there are at least a couple of forms of crying it out extinction. There's pure extinction, which has been researched, which is you just close the door and you don't go back until morning, some people call that cold turkey and there are books who recommend doing that. The second one is the graduated extinction, which we think of as Ferber, so you leave for progressively longer periods of time. There are some variations of that, were ones called like time checks, where you go in at regular intervals. Then there's this funny one called "camping out," which is a little bit blurry because it can mean what they call "extinction with parental presence," meaning you do pure extinction but you stay in the room, so the parent stays there and pretends they're asleep, while the baby or child is freaking out. It can also mean what we refer to as parental fading, which means that you start giving a lot of support at first and then you fade that out. Those two things are lumped together under the same title, which I don't personally fully understand so that one's a little bit unclear, but for sure, pure and graduated extinction are the big ones, and because they're the big ones, we have to think about the business of research, right? because it's an industry. It's business. What happens with research is that once there's a finding and people start building on or replicating those findings, it becomes a thing, right? That you just keep, you know, not really regurgitating, but definitely recycling, adding, reciting, and suddenly it becomes a mountain and then A it becomes evidence-based and B no one wants to question it, right? It's really becomes like this juggernaut that no one can sail because there's this mountain of evidence but there's also a mountain of evidence because people keep asking that same question, right? There's a reason there's a mountain of evidence. It's not because it's the best, it's just because most people are researching it because they want to build on an existing body of literature, so that's definitely where we're at right now. I continue to be surprised at the number of studies that just ask and answer, "Does extinction work? Does it work?" We need to start asking other questions like, "Who does it work for?" Who does it not work for? At what age is it maybe not recommended? How much crying is too much? At what ages? " So more of a dose-response, rather than just this global, it works for everyone at all times, in all situations, across all amounts of crime. I really think we need to really start deconstructing it, really taking it apart and looking at each piece more carefully, which is kind of the focus of my work, I would say.   Jen Lumanlan  13:01 I'm 100% agree. And just on that sort of mountains of evidence point, I mean, I see that over and over and over again, where whatever study I'm looking at, it was just released, cites a study from a couple of years before, and what they're citing is not necessarily the findings of that study, but just a comment that the person in that study who was doing that study made, which was then citing a previous study, which was about a comment that person in that study may not their actual results. And so you build on this series of comments that people have made that aren't actually even related to their results, and then you get finally back to the beginning of the evidence chain and you'll find that what was described in the original research is nothing like what you ended up, it's like that game of whispers, right, where you're whispering one to the next, and it gets changed throughout the way that it's cited, and it's built on as if at each stage, it still represents the truth, right?   Macall  13:52 There's some new work now called I just dipped my toe into it, but it's about what's called citation networks. It's very much this. It's about how people citing and reciting certain pieces of evidence builds a kind of belief system that then gets sort of entrenched, right? And then you have review articles that summarize the things that people have already said again and again, and then meta-analyses that re-review, and then you have levels of evidence, right? We have this chambliss criteria of evidence-based practices, and you start really looking at it, and then I, of course, compare it to what the books are saying, because then this information gets funneled into more popular consumable information, then I do a comparison of like, well, the book said this, what is the research say? It is like whispers, right? It is like, I think we call it "rumors" or something, yeah, where things get altered in the translation, so, that's very much true. I always have to do a disclaimer that this work is not about slamming extinction as an intervention. It's not at all. It definitely works for some families and lots of babies and lots of children. It totally works without a lot of stress and drama. However, it does not work for everyone and I don't think parents get that message really. As far as parents are concerned, this is literally the only option and that is very much not true, so it's more a call for the idea that we need to know more about the ins and outs of using extinction and what the alternatives are because they're out there. They just don't get depressed. And also, it's gotten so polarized to pro and anti-crying it out and I really think that's leaving out a lot of struggling people in the middle, so this is also a call. And also, the people on either side of that debate, whatever they are lobbying for worked for them, then I say, there's all these people in the middle for whom neither option worked, right? And they are really struggling and so I think that by giving parents options, we can defuse some of the sleep war piece and we can give struggling parents a little bit better information, I think.   Jen Lumanlan  16:11 I totally agree. Okay, so another thing that I want to be really clear about is that when we're talking about doing a study on a method of supporting children's sleep, the way the researchers are doing that study is very different from the way a parent at home, who is struggling and right in the thick of this and has a sleepless baby in one hand and their sleep book in the other hand, and these are two very different experiences, right? Can you talk a little bit more about what it's like to be a parent in a sleep training study?   Macall  16:40 Oh, boy, that's such a big, great question. In research, we call that transportability, right. Does what we find in the lab translate into real-world experience? In studies, they rarely just hand the parent a pamphlet or a book and say, "Let us know how that goes." Almost all the time, someone meets with the family and then does a whole intake history. Often, they craft a plan with that family and then there is a follow-up for questions even if that...

The band The Alphabet Rockers consists of lead members Kaitlin McGaw and Tommy Shepherd, and a multi-racial group of children who are also involved in writing and performing.  They write about their real lived experiences and their desire to live in a world where everyone belongs. Kaitlin and Tommy are actually fellows at the Othering and Belonging Institute, run by Dr. jon powell, whose work I really respect and whom we interviewed in the episode on othering. They also do work in schools - in an hour-long program they work with a class to compose a song, which gives children the experience not just of songwriting, but of truly being heard and having their ideas respected. Kaitlin and Tommy have now written a children's book called You Are Not Alone, which we discussed in the episode - along with a host of other juicy topics related to parenting...and racism...and White supremacy...   Jump to highlights 01:37 Introducing the guest speakers 04:45 Each song has its journey 14:30 The importance of centering children's experience in creating a culture of belonging 19:30 Practices that are intentionally brought into your family or practices that you have let go of in your family   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan  00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so   Jenny  00:10 do you get tired of hearing the same old interests to podcast episodes? I don't really But Jen thinks you might. I'm Jenny, a listener from Los Angeles, testing out a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development but puts it in context for you as well, so you can decide whether and how to use this new information. I listen because parenting can be scary and it's reassuring to know what the experts think. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. You can also join the free Facebook group to continue the conversation. Over time you might get sick of hearing me read this intro so come and record one yourself. You can read from a script Jen provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com/RecordTheIntro. I can't wait to hear yours   Jen Lumanlan  01:33 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we are going to do something I think that we've never done before. I don't believe we have had Grammy-nominated people on the show before so I'm excited for that. We are welcoming Tommy Shepherd and Caitlin McGraw who are co-creators of the Grammy nominated Alphabet Rockers and they have quickly become an important voice for today's youth curating content centered on children's voices and social justice issues like racism and gender inclusion. Their Grammy-nominated album “Rise Shine #Woke” inspired kids to stand up to hate and they have a second Grammy-nominated album “Love” which lifts up the voices of trans-two-spirit and gender nonconforming communities. They recently received a third Grammy nomination for “Shine” (melanin remix) featured on all one tribe, which is nominated for a best children's album. And now they've now written a picture book called You Are Not Alone, which empowers kids to love themselves and their identities stand up to hate, and have each other's backs no matter what. And the book looks at how children can feel others because of their race, gender, culture, and other factors and how they can navigate discrimination, and find strengths from their friends and allies. Welcome, Tommy and Kaitlin, so great to have you here.   Tommy  02:39 Thank you happy to be here.   Kaitlin 02:42 Let's go   Jen Lumanlan  02:41 All right, so I think the first thing that struck me when I was listening to your work is there are not so many intergenerational bands out there. How did you get started? And why did you choose music as your mechanism to get these ideas out into the world?   Kaitlin 02:55 Yeah, well, we had been working in the schools independently and when we came together with alphabet rockers initially, actually, it was, you know, kind of subversive, we knew that hip hop was a cultural space for belonging, actually, and for expression. And so we were bringing hip hop into the schools in a way that we felt really served all children and quickly realized that articulating and being very specific with the adults about what inclusion is required all framework, so we shifted our mission statement, and since 2015 we have been making music intentionally that makes change. So each song holds a question that our children pose to us that we see as community agents for change and we work in community to kind of find a musical response and heart-centered space to share.   Jen Lumanlan  03:48 And so we're here with the two of you today, but you are not the entirety of Alphabet Rockers, right? Yes, I should make that clear for folks who don't know you.   Tommy  03:55 Sure, yeah. We have a huge team who we are really about our collectivity, a lot of minds come together to conceptualize a lot of minds coming together to actually hold down the business part of things. We have a team that really is about keeping us on our toes with our affirmations and with our [unintelligible]. And we have team members that are also leading like Caitlin and I and other youngsters they lead you know, and leadership changes and leadership actually a thing that we really thrive on because we play follow the follower most of the time.   Jen Lumanlan  04:29 Yeah, and so when we're watching an Alphabet Rockets recording, one of the things that we see most of, is children right? It’s children singing and often singing about themselves and how they show up in the world. How does that all work?   Kaitlin 04:42 It's a great question for each song has their own journey. So some songs do hold private conversations we've had with kids and families. The song you are not alone, for example, was a private conversation with a transgendered boy who shared what inclusion would look like for him in school and he had written something on a wall. We do a lot of anonymous sharing as well, whether it be now virtually actually it works really well, kids can write their ideas into songs without us even knowing who wrote it. But at the time in person, he put it up and posted it on the wall and said, “I need friends that have my back note, even when I'm not in the room.” And it really, kind of like broke us open a little bit to look at what's the space we want to create for this child and with this child, because at that time, his family had done everything they could since he was a baby to, you know, kind of create the path forward together and they didn't have this piece, they didn't have the musical information that would say, “Okay, like, we know what the truth is in our hearts, we know what's right in our heads, and we don't have the spiritual connection, the culture to walk in where we can share with someone without articulating every piece of it.” And so that's kind of what we did is we wrote that story with him at the center and with his family at the center, and the song that came out of it was really about the world we want to live in. It may not exist yet, but we want to be in a world where your friends have your back, no matter what. It goes right into the book as well. It's like we just published a book by that name too, You're Not Alone, where it's like, “Oh, look, you know, they don't say my name correct at school but my friend always corrects people,” and we're looking for that, we're looking for that bravery from any age, not just.   Tommy  06:24 And the really interesting part about it is that the young people you've heard sing the songs are singing from their perspectives, but it's from that perspective that Kaitlin is speaking of, they identified with these stories, and with these interviews that we had, they identify, so it almost seems like they are coming from their own perspectives, you're gonna get some of that this year, some of them like coming from their own perspectives this year, however, they really just identified with not being alone with knowing that they're not alone in these feelings, all of them.   Jen Lumanlan  06:55 Yeah, and I was watching last night, one of the videos on your website about the work that you've done in classrooms, and was just struck by how intentional the whole exercise that you go through with children to work together with them for an hour. I mean, it's an hour. It's a short length of time and creating a song with them in that time, and that they come out of this understanding a bit more about the importance of being heard, and having that experience of having been heard. That's the secret sauce, right?   Kaitlin  07:26 Yeah, there's a lot of secret sauce happening, like some of that is just like, how are we still compadres business partners, like, 10 years still got stuff to process still in it like a quest, you know? And it's a question and we're still in it together. You know, that video of us writing with kids is actually from Mylan Elementary School, which is where we really started our whole initiative because, at the time, there wasn't brave space talking about anti-racism, and we were at the front of it in terms of the tools that we had. So when kids were writing their songs, and we really listened to what does bias feel like to you what is unfair to you? And sometimes what they talked about, you know, what you think would be like a hot topic, and sometimes it was. Sometimes they would talk about how it's not fair that people when they pollute in the ocean, it affects the world, there was a stretching for us of like, “Yeah, cause sometimes people will talk about changing the world is just about trash and animals, when we were really looking at our humanity. And so we wanted to make sure kids had a space where humanity was the why. It wasn't the convenience of things that adults felt kids could fix, which is like, let's recycle and pick up trash, it was like, “No,” but look at the space we hold together. And that all happened in that video you saw on our website.   Tommy  08:42 And the cool part about that process, too, is that we spent probably 90% on the journey of getting to a song and 10% of actually putting the song together and making it happen and practicing with them. That's kind of how we kind of do it, It's really about them getting there. And then we just put it together and it happens, you know,   Kaitlin  09:02 isn't that kind of how we write songs? I mean, it's like the process is the product.   Jen Lumanlan  09:08 Yeah, and I was thinking, you know, why music? why choose music to get this message out? And something that I read somewhere on your site, just made it click for me like anti-racist work is so often seen as something that happens up here and our heads, right? And you know, the whole White supremacist-based idea of anything that happens up in your head is valuable and important and good, and anything that happens in your body is sort of irrelevant at best. And you wrote about reconnecting those two, can you speak a little bit about how you use music to really connect thinking and knowing about anti-racist work?   Kaitlin  09:39 Yes. The biggest thing. And we keep coming back to it right because we feel like kids, they're actually, they're thinking here actually in their hearts first, and adults are jammed up. So when people say, “Oh, these topics are too big for kids,” it's like are they actually though because their hearts are so open, and so the weaving the music actually just creates an earworm of love of connection of validation of celebration, of advocacy, it just keeps going in and out.   Tommy  10:07 It's reminiscent of a cycle. Keeps feeding itself.   Kaitlin  10:11 When we first started doing the racial justice music in particular, there were a lot of people who were like, “Oh, don't do it, don't do it, you're gonna mess up, you're gonna make somebody feel alienated, you're gonna isolate people.” And you know, even trusted advisors were like, “You be careful because you have the risk of doing what White people have done with civil rights learning,” and just made it just feel yuck, you know, make somebody feel like they don't belong with just one simple word, the word choice you use. When we talk about the 90% process, that's where we do all of the rigor and the song is clarity. We're not experimenting with children. We are sharing clarity.   Jen Lumanlan  10:50 And how does that come out as you're writing a song with children? How are you sharing that clarity?   Kaitlin  10:50 Well, they have it.   Tommy  10:56 Yeah, they have it. A whole collage of words gets written on a board in the classroom and we collectively decide what's the most important jewels of all of these words, and then we expand from there, “Well, words are rhyme with these words, and what can we say about this word that involves another word that we use,” we find out what's important to them and then we just use that, and they become choruses, and they become verses, and then they become part of them after we're gone.   Kaitlin  11:23 Yeah, recently, we were in Virginia, and we were going to kick off a residency by writing a song with some children. And there was a protest at the same time of us because they were afraid of critical race theory, I believe was the guys that never use those words, and also, they're transphobic, and there's a bunch of things. We said, “Come in, sit down, listen, we're not going to kick you out, we're not here for that. We're not going to call the police. You can sit in here and protest. This is a program for children and their parents. Now in that brainstorm the kids, we wanted to talk about power, when we know how we're powerful. This has been a part of our journey during the COVID pandemic is let's recenter so we really know what we do got because so much has been taken when we know our power, and we recognize each other's power. That's the spark. So these kids were like, they came up with probably 50 words about power, spark, energy, and the kids who didn't want to speak could create dance moves. So like when we talk about the affirmations, the movement spaces like we don't use one way to write a song, we don't criticize people for spelling, for phrasing, for rhyming. I'm the worst at rhyming. I love loose rhymes we call them, so why not? Right? Why not demystify the artistic process and give everyone access that's breaking up WHITE supremacy too.   Tommy  12:47 Yeah, and there are even occasions where there's a student who doesn't even want to do the dance or the rap or the nothing, but they want to push the button to start the music, they want to stop it when it's time to stop it, they want to reset it, you know what I mean? They want to do that stuff. They want to help move the chairs so we can make space, you know, they want to do that there for that too. Jen Lumanlan  13:08 So, what happened with the protest?   Kaitlin  13:11 What happened with it? Nothing. But we're going back there in a couple of months, and I'm sure they will have regrouped and come harder.   Tommy  13:17 We spent a little bit of time I believe, I think we both spoke it's after it was over about spending a little bit of time like wondering like, like, “How am I gonna get you like, how am I gonna sting you?” You know what I mean? And then like, that faded after we got so engaged with the kids. Like we kind of forgot about that elephant in the room that was like ready to scrutinize us. Kaitlin  13:34 Yeah, we gave him a chance to share their ideas. They pass.   Tommy  13:39 Yeah, every time this circle came around to their time, we were like, “Here's another opportunity. You can do it. Oh, okay, no. Next time, we're like, here's your opportunity. Oh, okay.   Kaitlin  13:47 Because that's what happens in class too. We're not going to hold any expectation that lingers, right? Because everybody can evolve in a moment and the culture of assigning a role to a child in the classroom is White supremacy culture, because every child is capable of shifting and growing, and it's often the eye of the beholder and missing the clue.   Tommy  14:09 Just because it didn't happen for you last time doesn't mean it might not this time, right?   Jen Lumanlan  14:13 Well, let's hold out hope for those protesters, and what might shift for them next time. Kaitlin  14:19 That's right.   Jen Lumanlan  14:20 There's hope for all of us maybe. So your work really focuses very intentionally on centering children's experience. Why do you think that that is so important as we work towards creating a culture of belonging?   Tommy  14:32 I can say, this is for a long time I've really have been interested in the human experience and as a human, I have been a child before, and I've been in places where I'm like, “Oh, you know what? When I get older, I'm gonna do this. And when I get older, I'm gonna do that. And when I do this and that,” what I really starting to understand about being a teenager about adolescent, about being a little over 18, all those things, their experiences, their human experiences, we're not trying to do at that age is here a bunch of all these cautionary tales, like don't do this and don't do that, because I've been there before, you know what I mean? Like, really just like, we need to be there to help guide that human experience versus dictate it or structure it or all of those things. I gotta say, I'm still like, not the strictest, but my son, he got rules, but at the same time, like letting him have his human experience and letting him have mistakes, let him make him because as a teenager, he...

This episode is a continuation of the series on the intersection of children and food.  We've also heard from Dr. Lindo Bacon on busting myths about fat, Dr. Michael Goran on how sugar affects our children, Dr. Karen Throsby with a more high-level view on the sugar topic, and Ellyn Satter on her Division of Responsibility approach.   My guest in this episode, Dr. Shiri Sadeh-Sharvit, co-author with Dr. James Lock of Parents with Eating Disorders: An Intervention Guide.  The book is written for professionals but it's short and very approachable and may be beneficial for parents who are navigating disordered eating as well.   In the episode we discuss: The impacts of disordered eating on children's health and wellbeing (which were more extensive than even I had realized) The ways that disordered eating impact our parenting How parents can begin to heal so these patterns don't get passed down to the next generation   Jump to highlights 01:29 Introduction of episode 03:32 Where did eating disorder come from 10:37 Imbalance between maternal stressors and maternal resources 14:15 Ranges of eating disorder 15:20 How eating disorders show on pregnant women 15:56 Average age of eating disorder onset 19:06 Characteristics of infants after the pregnant mother experiences eating disorder 23:53 What transitions do we see as a child is getting older 31:16 What outcomes among children whose parents struggle with eating disorder 32:48 Eating disorder can display the desire for weight loss 34:55 Parent-based prevention and its main theoretical contacts 43:11 Advice that Dr. Shiri Sadeh-Sharvit wanted to give to parents 44:48 Advocacy of the program   Dr. Shiri Sadeh-Sharvit's Book: Parents with Eating Disorders: An Intervention Guide (Affiliate link).   References: Sadeh-Sharvit, S., & Lock, J. (2019). Parents with eating disorders: An intervention guide. New York: Routledge. Sadeh-Sharvit, S., Levy-Schiff, R., Feldman, T., Ram, A., Gur, E., Zubery, E., Steiner, E., Latzer, Y., & Lock, J.D. (2015). Child feeding perceptions among mothers with eating disorders. Appetite 95, 67-73. Sadeh-Sharvit, S., Levy-Schiff, R., Arnow, K.D., & Lock, J.D. (2015). The impact of maternal eating disorders and spousal support on neurodevelopmental trajectories in their toddlers. Abnormal and Behavioral Psychology 1(1), 1000102. Sadeh-Sharvit, S., Levy-Shiff, R., & Lock, J.D. (2015). Maternal eating disorder history and toddlers’ neurodevelopmental outcomes: A brief report. Eating Disorders 24(2), 198-205. Sadeh-Sharvit, S., Levy-Schiff, R., Arnow, K.D., & Lock, J.D. (2016). The interactions of mothers with eating disorders with their toddlers: Identifying broader risk factors. Attachment & Human Development 18(4), 418-428. Sadeh-Sharvit, S., Zybery, E., Mankovski, E., Steiner, E., & Lock, J.D. (2016). Parent-based prevention program for the children of mothers with eating disorders: Feasibility and preliminary outcomes. Eating Disorders 23(4), 312-325. Sadeh-Sharvit, S., Sacks, M.R., Runfola, C. Bulik,C.M., & Lock, J.D. (2020). Interventions to empower adults with eating disorders and their partners around the transition to parenthood. Family Processes 59(4), 1407-1422.

One day Iris took her daughter to the park, with enough snacks with for both of them.  When Iris got hungry, she asked her daughter to share some of the food - but her daughter refused.  Iris knows that hunger is a factor that dramatically narrows her Window of Tolerance and makes it more likely that she’ll snap at her child’s behavior, so she asked again for food and again her daughter refused.   Then out of nowhere a crow swooped down and tried to steal some of the food, causing the whole lot to fall on the ground - and Iris exploded.  She was so angry that she felt a hot energy coming from her gut, and her daughter is standing in the park with tears flooding down her face, because Iris yelled at her.   And then, of course, the guilt and shame spiral begins: “What am I doing?  Why am I so angry?  And why can’t I stop?”   Now, Iris is in a very different place.  She’s not perfect, of course - none of us are.  But even Iris, the raised-Catholic-and-prone-to-unworthiness-and-guilt-tripping specialist, has found a different path.     She no longer has to convince herself that she’s worthy of having her needs met - she knows she is, and she holds her own needs with equal care as her daughter’s needs.   Because her needs are met on a regular basis, she’s able to respond to her daughter’s age-appropriate difficult behavior with compassion and empathy.   And because she’s able to do this most of the time, she doesn’t need to get into the guilt and shame spiral nearly as often.  (And on the few occasions when it does still happen, she knows how to treat herself with compassion as well, instead of beating herself up for screwing up.)   Do you want to make this kind of shift in your own life?  Do you often feel triggered by your child’s behavior?  My Taming Your Triggers workshop, which has helped thousands of parents to not just remember a new script for the difficult moments, but to truly take on a new way of being in their relationships with their children - just like Iris has done.   Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.       Jump to highlights 01:43 Introduction about the guest 08:00 Iris’ childhood impression 15:15 What would Iris say to a person experiencing extreme anger 20:40 Iris’ experience in taking the workshop 26:45 What Iris learned in the workshop 33:56 How was it different today than before for Iris 40:59 Transformations that Iris experienced   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan  00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives. But it can be so   Jessica  00:11 Do you get tired of hearing the same old intros to podcast episodes? Me too. Hi, I'm not Jen. I'm Jessica, and I'm in Burlesque Panama. Jen has just created a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes, and I got to test it out. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development. It puts it in context for you as well. So, you can decide whether and how to use this new information. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you what to do about each one. Sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe, and come over to our free Facebook group to continue the conversation about this episode. You can also thank Jen for this episode by donating to keep the podcast ad free by going to the page for this or any other episode on YourParentingMojo.com. If you'd like to start a conversation with someone about this episode or know someone who would find it useful, please forward it to them. Over time, you're gonna get sick of hearing me read this intro as well. So come and record on yourself. You can read from a script she's provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to YourParentingMojo.com and click Read the Intro and I can't wait to hear yours.   Jen Lumanlan  01:33 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We're here with a very special guest today parent Iris. Iris, I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us just a little bit about you and your family. Where are you in the world? Where are you from?   Iris  01:43 Yeah, I live in the west coast of Canada in the city of Vancouver with my husband and my almost seven-year-old daughter, Malaya. And Malaya is feisty and funny, and she's just this energetic bunny. Oh, she's human, but not the rabbit. But you know, she is like an energizer bunny just going on and on and on. And I work in a field where not many people want to talk about it, or maybe even think about it. And that is in the field of death and dying. And so, I guess most parents are familiar with childbirth educator or birth doula. And so I like to think of it not my work not as an opposite, but as the other part of life. So, I support people who are grieving and, you know, practical and heart-centered planning. So it's from wills and advanced care directives to like, you know, how would you like to be cared for after you die, and rituals and ceremonies and things like that. I'm an end-of-life educator and end-of-life doula. And one important thing, I immigrated to Canada from the Philippines in 2005. And in the summer of that year, I met a man that became my husband. And in the beginning, I was sort of sitting on the fence, I'm going to have a child, my husband already had a daughter from a previous marriage, but he was asking me, okay, if you want the child like, you know, you decide I'm okay either way. And at first, I was like, oh, you know, like, you know, this philosophical and existential, kind of like, back and forth. And so, I was trying to get pregnant and I knew I wanted a child when it was clear that I probably wouldn't get pregnant, like, you know, I mean, I was having a hard time getting pregnant. And so after six years; six years of fertility treatment and roller coaster of emotions at the ripe age of 41. I gave birth to Malaya. And by this time, I've had a meaningful and successful work life. And so in positions of like, big responsibility, and I was like, “Motherhood. Oh, I’ll be okay. I've done these things.” And like, “Motherhood. It's just I can do this, huh” Famous last words.   Jen Lumanlan  04:23 Yeah, and of course, there's the added challenge of when you've worked so hard to have a baby and then to have these moments where you just want to ring that child's neck. It's like, how can these two things go together? So yeah, I'm sure that we'll talk about that in a minute. But the reason that I wanted to talk with you is because you've just finished the most recent round of the taming your triggers workshop, and this was not your first time. And I first realized that you have taken it multiple times when I think you were on your third time around, and I think you'd barely looked in the community the first couple of times and so I didn't really know that you were there. And then when I saw your name coming through again, on the participant list, my first thought was this massive hot flush of shame because I was just thinking, why do people have to come back and do this multiple times? If I was a good teacher? Shouldn't I be able to transfer this knowledge to you and send you out the door and to live your life. And so there was this real moment of fear and shame when I first saw that you were taking the workshop multiple times. And so, I wonder, can you tell us a little bit about how this has played out for you what this process has been like for you as you've navigated your journey with having triggers with your very spirited daughter?   Iris  05:45 Yeah. So first off, Jen, I like to say sorry, for your shame or something.   Jen Lumanlan  05:51 Apology accepted.   Iris  05:54 And you're right, the first two times I was just lurking around the community. And I will talk more about that, when I decided to come out as a repeater of the taming your trigger workshop, it was because I wanted you and the others to know that I truly, truly believe in the workshop that you have designed. And by this time, I've also followed you not in a stalker creepy way, but I followed your podcast for quite a while. And so I knew that I needed this, that I knew that I was one of those in your advertisement if you are this and that, and oh, my goodness, I checked all the lists. And so I knew that there was no doubt in my mind that it was going to be transformative for me, that's why I kept on joining. The third and the fourth time, I'd say to people, I've done this several times, I'm not ashamed to say that I'm not proud either. It's just it is what it is. So your question about how the journey taking the taming your trigger workshop multiple times. Before I answer that question, I want to give a little bit of context, first off a context of my life so that people will have more understanding. I grew up in an urban poor neighborhood in the Philippines, people did not really have enough material things, and we relied on each other for material or personal support. And so for example, you'd go like, oh, I need to prepare dinner, but then oh, we don't have rice, because rice is very important. And then my mother will just say, okay, go next door and ask our neighbor to just borrow a kilo of rice, and then we will replace it later. So yeah, no problem with that, or for example, a neighbor would say, oh, I need to go to the market. But I need somebody to keep an eye on my children and there's no problem because it's okay, we can supervise, we can look after them. They're mostly independent. And so there was really a strong sense of community and like people really in birth or death and all such life situations in between, there's really that community, you know, your neighbors got your back or your extended family got your back. So I did not know I was poor, like, I was just like, like, you know, like, I was just being a kid. It was when I went to school that I realize, oh, other people have other situations. And you see my mother work as a dressmaker in a private Catholic very upscale school and the tuition fee there was like, there's no way we could afford the tuition fee. But because she was working there  and employee, that's one of their privileges or benefits, I guess. I was there. And my classmates were like, because this is all girls school; daughters of congressmen or politicians, and then you know, like their businesses, they own restaurants and all those things. And I was the dressmaker’s daughter, which was fine because many of my classmates knew her and even called her “Nanay, which means mother. I call my mother Nanay, they would also call her. And so I felt that I was liked, you know, except for the rich, poor thing. I was like, I had friends, and I did not feel quite deprived in that area, but I can see that now. They have their nice shoes, whereas my shoes are like, my toe would be showing. I had good grades, and I was active in extracurricular activities. So my life here in Canada, of course, is like, very, very different from my life there, of course, Malaya, likely not experienced that life of sense of scarcity and economic insecurity, and so that is one of my trigger, you know, like, all those things. And so I've always said since I moved here, there were, of course, a lot of things that I really enjoyed and everything, but I felt the absence of my community and I felt the loss of my very wide support system. And I felt this very acutely after I gave birth. So it wasn't a surprise to me when my doctor said, Iris, you have postpartum depression. And I sort of knew it beforehand because I've been having low-grade depression since I came here, and like, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know, to know that. So I joined a lot of support groups for new moms, and I was in individual counseling, and that's one good thing about being here in Canada, there's like, social support system as well. For a long time, I was really resisting taking medication. I know in some areas; this is all hush-hush when it comes to mental health and medication, I just want to lay it all out on the table. And for a long time, I resisted getting medication because I saw it as a sign of weakness and you know, I was like, oh, I was a school guidance counselor so I knew these things and mental health, blah, blah, blah. And I started a nonprofit organization. And I was, I can do this. Of course, motherhood is a totally different ballgame.   Jen Lumanlan  11:22 Yeah, it totally is. Yeah. Was there a specific incident that caused you to say, I need more help than I'm getting right now? I need to do something differently than what I'm doing right now.   Iris  11:34 Yeah, for sure. So actually, two instances. First, when Malaya was about three years old, we were in the park and I usually pack food, like, you know, snacks and things like that. I was hungry. And that's one of my factors. I was hungry and she was at the stage, Jen, were like, you ask her for something, and she’s like, “No, I won't give you,” and I kept on asking because I was really hungry, and she really wouldn't give me. And I packed for both of us, by the way, and then a crow swooped in and got into the container. I don't know if it's grapes or nuts; all of those things spilled out on the ground. And I was just so so angry! I feel this hot thing coming out from my gut here and Malaya started crying because she felt that energy, and I felt very guilty about that. I was like, “Oh my God, what am I doing?” And yet, I also recognized that there was something so primal in being denied; in “being denied” for food. I wasn't rational at all. And then the other instance, was when out of the blue Malaya asked me, “Mama, why are you always angry?” And the way she asked was really significant to me because she asked out of curiosity. It wasn't there was no judgment. She just like wanted to understand and concern in her voice, like, “Why is this?” And so I'm all for being open and vulnerable and showing all facets of myself to my daughter. But I just had this instinctive feeling that it's not good for a child to be always looking at her parents who are supposed to take care of her. And always like, erupting like a volcano every hour or something. So that's when I need more help than the medication, I need more help than counseling, I need more help than all these things I'm doing for myself to help me.   Jen Lumanlan  13:40 Yeah. Okay. And so you've been through this. And we have actually lost track, or I have at least lost track, I am uncertain if we are on round number four and number five at this point. But what I'm wondering is, if a person is listening to this, they can say, “Well, I don't want to have to go through this thing four or five times to actually do something different!” So what would you say to somebody who's thinking that okay, yes, I see myself exploiting sometimes as well or maybe I'm not an exploding kind of person, I'm a freeze up kind of person, or a walk away kind of person, or fawn, and just get the crying and the screaming, just stop kind of person. if I'm seeing myself having these reactions to my child's behavior, I'm thinking, but I don't want to have to do the same thing four or five times to do something different. What would you say to somebody who's in that position right now?   Iris  14:23 The first two times when I was lurking, I can tell you exactly what I was doing, even if I sort of petered out. So, I was really spending a lot of time identifying my triggers, and seeing what are the factors that caused me to erupt. The main thing that I was really working on in the first module, I think Jen was the window of tolerance, and how to increase our window of tolerance. And I know that like being hungry, being tired, being sleep deprived—those are the factors that narrow my window of tolerance. So the second time I did the course again, I made sure that I have support something like cooking a big batch of food, so that I don't have to be like, oh my god like to cook and again and again and again every day. And then also, I scheduled more sessions with my therapist. I just made sure I said no to other time commitments or other things that get my attention. And called my friends and say, “Can you please call me when you don't see me?” Like, can you say, “Oh, are we going for a walk or something?” So those things, I like to think of my four or five times in the workshop, as I like to imagine myself as like a horse trainer. And the process of taming my own trigger is the wild doors. And so the first few times were just about me getting into the saddle. And just like, holding on. And just, of course, right now, I'm not the star in the rodeo, or however you call that, I think I am staying in the saddle long enough to enjoy the ride. That was it. And then every time I register again, I learn more and more, and I cover more and more modules. And one thing that really was quite helpful to me was when you reorganize the modules, it's the things that help us with our triggers, and not just like, analyzing hollered triggers. And this last time, there was a call and I had my food ready and all this other support, and it was just this kind of fruit salad, all these things that really kept me sitting on the saddle long enough to spend time with my wild horse of triggers.   Jen Lumanlan  16:51 Oh, wow. That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that I love the metaphor. And yeah, I just want to sort of translate a couple of things that you said, for folks who are newer to this, what I'm hearing from you is that I've added to the content over the times that I've done it but it hasn't changed dramatically, or firstly organized at logically. Having all these logical skills, thinking this is the way people need to hear it. First of all,...

We’ve covered the topic of boundaries before, in our conversation with Xavier Dagba.  In my work with parents, I see that an inability to set boundaries is a MAJOR cause of feeling triggered by our child’s behavior.     When we snap at our child’s behavior, it often (not always, but often) comes somewhat later in the day.     There’s a reason for that: it’s because we haven’t been able to set boundaries early in the day, so each time our child crosses where a boundary should have been, we get more and more irritated.  Then finally we can’t take it any more - and after one last not-boundary crossing, we snap.   (If you snap early in the day, I’d ask you to consider what boundaries were crossed for you the day (or many days) before, and whether you’re still feeling the effects of that?)   So we’ve discussed this before, and yet…boundaries continue to be a struggle for almost all of the parents I meet.  Why is this?   We’ll get into that in this episode, which draws on Nedra Tawwab’s book Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and goes beyond it too.  Nedra outlines nine reasons why we find setting boundaries so difficult, and I argue that’s because all nine are rooted in patriarchal ways of being in relationships.     When we’ve been conditioned for decades that our role as women is not to seem rude or mean, to keep the peace at all costs, to make sure everyone else’s needs are taken care of before our own, and to have our power in a relationship come from taking care of others, is it any wonder that we go out into the world and have no idea how to even know we need a boundary, never mind how to set one?   And secondly I argue that while we might need more boundaries between us and the people we love, that we have WAY TOO MANY boundaries between us and the people in our broader communities.  That’s one big reason why we feel so stressed out all the time - because it seems like we are the only person that can meet our child’s every need, and that we have to do it all alone.  I believe that by breaking these boundaries down we can make life a whole lot easier for ourselves by reducing the number of things we need to do (meal swap, anyone?), and by creating connection that helps us to feel nourished and whole.   If you’re struggling with knowing how to identify and set boundaries, I’d like to invite you to join my Taming Your Triggers workshop.     We’ll help you to identify your needs so you can work with your child to get these met and meet your child’s needs as well (and even though this might seem impossible right now, it actually is possible to meet both of your needs the vast majority of the time!).     And on the relatively few times when it isn’t possible to meet both of your needs, you can set a boundary instead (which is different from a limit!).  When you do this consistently, you can be more regulated more of the time, which means you won’t snap at your child as often as you do now.   Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.   Jump to Highlights 01:32 Introducing today’s episode 05:15 Invitation to Taming Your Triggers workshop 09:29 The distinction between ‘boundaries’ and ‘limits’ in the context of parenting 15:35 The challenges adults face in setting boundaries, attributing difficulty to childhood experiences 23:40 Nine common reasons that may hinder individuals from setting effective boundaries 26:28 The challenges of setting boundaries, particularly for female-identifying parents, attributing the difficulty to societal expectations rooted in gender roles 36:04 The impact of societal forces, such as capitalism, patriarchy, and white supremacy, on parenting and the tendency to resort to consumerism as a coping mechanism 42:01 The emphasis on the importance of listening to one's body as a starting point for setting boundaries     Episodes referenced 094: Using nonviolent communication to parent more peacefully SYPM 009: How to Set Boundaries in Parenting 124: The Art of Holding Space     References Birdsong, M. (2020). How we show up: Reclaiming family, friendship and community. New York: Hachette. hooks, b. (2014). Talking back: Thinking feminist, thinking Black. Abingdon: Routledge.