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We've covered a number of episodes in the past that feed into this one, including Raising Emotionally Healthy Boys with Dr. Judy Chu (which focused on boys' understanding of masculinity in the preschool years), and Playing to Win with Dr. Hilary Levy Friedman (which looked at the lessons children learn from sports...which aren't really related to the sports themselves...).   And of course there are the two episodes on patriarchy; the interview with Dr. Carol Gilligan, as well as my conversation with listener Brian Stout about what we learned during the interview.   A few weeks ago listener Caroline and I interviewed Dr. Marnina Gonick on the topic of girls' relationships, which stemmed from the question 'why are middle/high school-aged girls so mean to each other?' but became much broader in scope as we looked at the cultural factors shaping girls' relationships. At the end of that conversation I asked Dr. Gonick if she knew anyone who was doing work similar to hers but looking at boys' relationships, and she did!   In today's conversation Caroline returns to co-interview Dr. Michael Kehler, who is Research Professor in Masculinities Studies at the Weklund School of Education at the University of Calgary. We discuss how masculinity isn't something that boys are; it's something they do, how the traditional interpretation of masculinity hurts our boys and girls, and what parents can do to support boys in engaging in alternative masculinities that allow them to feel more whole as people.   Dr. Michael Kehler's book Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken - Affiliate link   Jump to highlights (03:31) What does it mean to be a boy (05:17) There is a type of masculinity that is perceived to be the most masculine (06:21) The problem with the phrase “Boys will be boys” (08:24) Understanding Masculine and Feminine binary (10:09) How much influence do gender stereotypes or gender norms around masculinity have on boys' relationships, particularly at school? (16:27) How mental and physical affection have shown up in boys' and men's relationships (21:37) Why do boys and men feel pressure to conform to traditional masculine norms? (23:38) Ways that girls regulated men's roles in society (27:49) How can gender diversity be supported (30:25) Boys seem to need action-based learning, rather than docile literacy-based tasks (33:54) The importance of disrupting thinking in supporting boys in their resistance to the norms of masculinity (40:07) Do boys desire close male-to-male friendships? (42:29) Power of discomfort as a learning opportunity   References: Anderson, E., Adams, A., & Rivers, I. (2012). “I kiss them because I love them”: The emergence of heterosexual men kissing in British institutes of education. Archives of Sexual Behavior 41(2), 421-430. Anderson, E. (2008). “I used to think women were weak”: Orthodox masculinity, gender segregation, and sport. Sociological Forum 23(2), 257-280. Burns, J., & Kehler, M. (2014). Boys, bodies, and negotiated school spaces: When boys fail the litmus test. Culture, Society & Masculinities 6(1), 3-18. Hayward, C., & Mac an Ghaill, M. (2013). Education and masculinities: Social, cultural, and global transformations. New York: Routledge. Kehler, M. (2010). Boys, books and homophobia: Exploring the practices and policies of masculinities in school. McGill Journal of Education 45(3), 351-370. Kehler, M.D. (2007). Hallway fears and high school friendships: the complications of young men (re)negotiating heterosexualized identities. Discourse: Studies in the cultural politics of education 28(2), 259-277. Kehler, M.D. & Martino, W. (2007). Questioning masculinities: Interrogating boys’ capacities for self-problematization in schools. Canadian Journal of Education 30(1), 90-112. Kehler, M.D., Davison, K.G., & Frank, B. (2005). Contradictions and tensions in the practice of masculinites in school: interrogating embodiment and ‘Good Buddy Talk.’ Journal of Curriculum Theorizing 21(4), 59-72. Kimmel, M. (2018). Masculinity and our common humanity: “Real” men versus “Good” men. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.173-187). New York: New York University Press. Kimmel, M. (2004). Masculinity as homophobia: Fear, shame, and silence in the construction of gender identity. In P.F. Murphy (Ed)., Feminism & Masculinities (p.182-199). Oxford: Oxford University Press. Mac an Ghaill, M., & Hayward, C. (2011). Schooling, masculinity and class analysis: Towards an aesthetic of subjectivities. British Journal of Sociology of Education 32(5), 729-744. Mac an Ghaill, M. (1994). The making of men: Masculinities, sexualities, and schooling. Buckingham: Open University Press. Martino, W., & Kehler, M. (2006). Male teachers and the “Boy Problem” An issue of recuperative masculinity politics. McGill Journal of Education 41(2), 113-131. McCann, P.D., Minichiello, V., & Plummer, D. (2009). Is homophobia inevitable? Evidence that explores the constructed nature of homophobia, and the techniques through which men unlearn it. Journal of Sociology 45(2), 201-220. Messerschmidt, J.W. (2010). The struggle for recognition: Embodied masculinity and the victim-violence cycle of bullying in secondary schools. In M. Kehler & M. Atkinson (Eds), Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken (p.113-131). New York: Peter Lang. Plummer, C. (1999). One of the boys: Masculinity, homophobia, and modern manhood. New York: Harrington Park Press. Riechert, M.C., & Nelson, J.D. (2018). I want to learn from you: Relational strategies to engage boys in school. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.344-360). New York: New York University Press. Robinson, S., White, A., & Anderson, E. (2019). Privileging the bromance: A critical appraisal of romantic and bromantic relationships. Men and Masculinities 22(5), 850-871. Rogers L.O. (2018). The “Black Box”: Identity development and the crisis of connection among Black adolescent boys. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.129-148). New York: New York University Press. Rotondo, E.A. (1989). Romantic friendship: Male intimacy and middle class youth in the Northern United States, 1800-1900. Journal of Social History 23(1), 1-25. Ryan, T.A., Morrison, T.G., & O Beaglaoich, C. (2010). Adolescent males’ body image: An overview of research on the influence of mass media. In M. Kehler & M. Atkinson (Eds), Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken (p.21-50). New York: Peter Lang. Scholes, L. (2018). Boys, masculinities and reading: Gender identity and literacy as social practice. New York: Routledge. Watson, A., & Kehler, M. (2012). Beyond the “Boy Problem”: Raising questions, growing concerns and literacy reconsidered. New England Reading Association Journal 48(1), 43-55. Watson, A., Kehler, M., & Martino, W. (2010). The problem of boys’ literacy underachievement: Raising some questions. Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy 53(5), 356-361. Way, N., & Nelson, J.D. (2018). The Listening Project: Fostering curiosity and connection in middle schools. In N. Way, A. Ali, C. Gilligan, & P. Noguera (Eds), The Crisis of Connection: Roots, Consequences, and Solutions (p.274-298). New York: New York University Press.    

There are lots of books available now on how to talk with children about issues related to race, but Sarah W. Jaffe noticed a gap: there weren't any books geared toward non-academic audiences talking about how the choices that predominantly well-off, predominantly White parents make impact other people. From childcare choices to school to college, at every step of the way we make decisions that reflect Wanting What's Best for our own child, but very often these decisions are rooted in the fear of our child falling behind in some way, and when we try to elevate our own child we often do it at the expense of others.   Sarah's book uncovers the ideas that underlie the seemingly innocuous decisions we make so we can ensure that our choices are really aligned with our values. It also provides a great counterpoint to the book that I'm in the process of writing, which will be on the ways we either pass on or disrupt the tools of White supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism to our own children through the daily interactions we have with them that don't seem to be about anything related to these topics. Publication date September 2023: stay tuned!   Click here to order Sarah W. Jaffe's book Wanting What's Best: Parenting, Privilege, and Building a Just World (affiliate link).    Shownotes: (02:37) How our child should engage in the world. (03:57) Learn why our fears affects how we raise our children. (05:58) The importance of racism, patriarchy and capitalism conversation in our child. (07:42) The inadequacies in the system and issues with childcare wages during the 1960s. (10:07) Why is our Social Security System being unfair and unjust to farm laborers and domestic workers. (11:45) How should we deal with the childcare systems as privileged parents. (13:20) The ideal factors in choosing a daycare arrangement between public schools and private ones. (14:19) Is it a good idea to take the funds from one school and give it to the other schools. (17:17) How racial makeup of a school does play a big part in the perception of White parents when choosing a school. (18:57) The good benefits of exposing our kids to a school with a diverse student body. (19:43) The challenges we experienced as parents while working against racism. (23:05) Anti-racist work practices that we can start now. (25:29) The real picture of how colleges and universities consider students seeking financial aid. (31:42) Should we consider it a parenting failure if our child didn't attend college. (33:21) What it means to be a good activist. (35:56) How does social change start in volunteerism. (38:26) Money talks with our child. (40:17) Every part of how we live is infused with capitalism. (42:20) How would advocating for other children's rights in the same manner that we advocate for our own children make a better future generation.  

I've been wanting to do this episode for a loooong time. We covered episodes a long time ago on how children form social groups, and what happens when they exclude each other from play, but I wanted to do an episode exploring this issue related to slightly older girls, and from a cultural perspective. There are a lot of books and articles out there on the concept of mean girls and I wanted to understand more about that. Why are girls 'mean' to each other? Is it really a choice they're making...or is it a choice in response to a complex set of demands that we put on them about what it means to be female in our culture?   I had a really hard time finding anyone who was doing current research on the topic, and I mentioned this on a group coaching call in the Parenting Membership. A member, Caroline, said: “I know someone who can speak to this!”   Caroline had explored girls’ relationships in young adult literature for her master’s thesis, and knew Dr. Marnina Gonick’s work. Caroline introduced us, Dr. Gonick agreed to talk, and we all had a great conversation about girls’ role in our culture, how they are affected by it, and how they are agents of change as well. Dr. Gonick is Canada Research Chair in Gender and also holds a joint appointment in Education and Women’s Studies at Mount St. Vincent University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. She has written two books on the topic of girls’ relationships as well as a whole host of peer-reviewed articles.   Dr. Gonick also introduced me to an expert on boys’ relationships and we’re currently working to schedule an interview in a few weeks so there should be more to come on that soon!   Dr. Marnina Gonick’s Books: Young Femininity: Girlhood, Power and Social Change 2004th Edition Between Femininities: Ambivalence, Identity, and the Education of Girls (SUNY series, Second Thoughts: New Theoretical Formations) (Affiliate links).   Jump to highlights: (03:36) How changes in cultural norms influence our understanding of what it means to be a girl. (05:27) The way in which a change in behavior can help us understand the experiences of girls in general. (06:36) What does the school curriculum say about girls that causes them to be disadvantaged in schools. (08:35) How damaging it is for girls to be victims in a patriarchal society. (10:25) Why our social systems aren't necessarily organized around girls' well-being (12:50) The concept of girl power can be seen as either working for or against females. (14:46) The Social Barriers to Girl Power. (16:44) Criticisms of the movie "Mean Girls" and how they relate to the topic of empowering women in general. (18:34) The relational aggressiveness between boys and girls. (21:45) Why school cultures play a significant influence in bullying. (24:19) Finding acceptable ways for girls to show their relational aggression. (26:17) Factors that influences a child to become racist and disrespectful. (28:07) A growing number of institutions and businesses have taken an interest in the girl power movement. (31:34) Girls' ways of discovering their sense of identity/sexuality. (35:16) Different notions of sexiness in girls. (39:28) How heterosexuality highlights femininity. (41:24) Girls are going to be mean to each other human nature makes it inevitable. (43:37) How important is it to understand our feelings and the feelings of our children.   References: Aapola, S., Gonick, M., & Harris, A. (2005). Young femininity: Girlhood, power, and social change. Basingstoke: Palgrave MacMillan Bethune, J., & Gonick, M. (2017). Schooling the mean girl: A critical discourse analysis of teacher resource materials. Gender and Education 29(3), 389-404. Dellasega, C., & Nixon, C. (2003). Girl wars: 12 strategies that will end female bullying. New York: Fireside. Gonick, M. (2003). Between femininities: Ambivalence, identity, and the education of girls. Albany: State University of New York Press. Gonick, M. (2004). VII. The ‘mean girl’ crisis: Problematizing representations of girls’ friendships. Feminism & Psychology 14(3), 395-400. Gonick, M. (2006). Between “girl power” and “Reviving Ophelia”: Constituting the neoliberal girl subject. NWSA Journal 18(2), 1-23. Gonick, M., Renold, E., Ringrose, J., & Weems, L. (2009). Rethinking agency and resistance: What comes after Girl Power? Girlhood Studies 2(2), 1-9. Gonick, M., Vanner, C., Mitchell, C., & Dugal, A. (2021). ‘We want freedom not just safety’: Biography of a Girlfesto as a strategic tool in youth activism. Young 29(2), 101-118. Goodwin, M.H. (2006). The hidden life of girls; Games of stance, status, and exclusion. Malden: Blackwell. Kehily, M.J., Ghaill, M.M.A., Epstein, D., & Redman, P. (2002). Private girls and public worlds: Producing femininities in the primary school. Discourse: Studies in the Cultural Politics of Education 23(2), 167-177. Ludwig, T., & Adams, B. (2012). Confessions of a former bully. Decorah: Dragonfly. Renold, E. (2006). ‘They won’t let us play…unless you’re going out with one of them’: Girls, boys, and Butler’s ‘Heterosexual Matrix’ in the primary years. British Journal of Sociology of Education 27(4), 489-509.  

I read a lot of textbooks on parenting for my Master’s in Psychology (Child Development), I’ve read tens of thousands of peer-reviewed papers on the topic, and part of the reason it’s hard work is that you can’t ever take things at face value.   In her now classic book Deconstructing Developmental Psychology, Dr. Erica Burman explodes a number of our ideas about child development by calling our attention to what’s really going on in an interaction, rather than what we think is going on.   For example, there’s a classic study where researchers put a baby on a solid surface which changed to glass, which had a design underneath implying that there was a ‘cliff edge’ that the baby would fall off if it went onto the glass. Researchers designed the experiment to find out what babies could understand about depth perception, but perhaps what they were actually testing was the extent to which the mother’s encouragement or lack of encouragement (and it was always the mother) could entice the baby across the ‘gap.’   These kinds of confounds exist throughout the research base, and because we’re not taught to look below the surface it can be easy to accept the results at face value. Dr. Burman specializes in looking below the surface so we can examine: what are we really trying to understand here? And in doing this, are we reinforcing the same old ideas about ‘success’ that aren’t really serving us now, never mind our children in the future?   Dr. Erica Burman’s Book: Deconstructing Developmental Psychology 3rd Edition Developments: Child, Image, Nation  (Affiliate links).   Jump to highlights: (01:12) The contribution of Professor Erica Burman to psychology. (03:05) First studies about Childhood Development. (04:26) How general philosophical questions are linked in child studies. (07:42) Childhood as a distinct social category. (09:10) The Concept of Human Interiority and Childhood. (10:17) Our hopes, fears, and fantasies about childhood reflect our ideas about our lost selves. (13:23) How the study of child development shifted when behaviorism came into play. (16:28) We assume psychology is connected with child development. (18:27) Importance of Democratic Parenting in our society. (19:57) Developmental researchers oppressed working mothers and middle-class mothers. (22:23) Impacts of authoritarian regimes in our parenting. (27:19) Using visual cliff as an experiment in understanding depth perception in children. (29:06) A child is functioning within a dynamic system of people and objects and everything around it. (31:02) Mother’s appear as the sort of a presumed natural environment to children. (33:11) Nuclear family performs ideological functions for Capitalism. (37:00) Whether or not spanking should be banned. (38:09) The ways environments inhibit certain behaviors. (39:19) How welfare policies have affected families. (42:27) Discussing the important discourses in parenting’s social and political issues in the book DDP.   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"]   Emma 00:04 Hi, I’m Emma, and I’m listening from the UK we all want our children to lead fulfilled lives. But we’re surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast is still scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use everyday in their real lives with their real children. If you’d like to be notified when new episodes are released, and get a free infographic on the 13 reasons your child isn’t listening to you and what to do about each one, just head on over to YourParentingmojo.com/subscribe, and pretty soon you’re going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro so come and record one yourself at YourParentingmojo.com/recordtheintro   Jen Lumanlan 00:45 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today we’re going to take a dive into a topic that cuts across many of the ideas that we discuss here on the podcast. We’re going to take a critical look at the topic of Developmental Psychology as a whole and what we can learn about it when we raise our eyes up off the specific topics like theory of mind, and language development, and attachment that we often spend a lot of time delving into and consider the topics that these sit within. My guest for the conversation is Professor Erica Berman. Professor Berman is Professor of Education at the University of Manchester, an Associate Fellow of the British Psychological Society and the United Kingdom Council of Psychotherapists, and a registered Group Analyst. She trained as a developmental psychologist and is well known as a critical developmental psychologist specializing in innovative and activist qualitative research. Her research is focused on critical development and educational psychology, feminist and postcolonial theory, childhood studies on critical mental health practice, particularly around gender and cultural issues. Much of her work addresses the connections between emotions, mental health, and individual and social change. She’s a past chair of the Psychology of Women’s section of the British Psychological Society. And in 2016, she was awarded an Honorary Lifetime Fellowship at the British Psychological Society in recognition of her contribution to psychology. She’s associate editor of the Sage Encyclopedia of Childhood and Childhood Studies and the author of a number of books, most significantly, Deconstructing Developmental Psychology. And since it seems as though friends of the book have the right to call it DDP, we’re going to go ahead and do that here too. DDP is now in its third edition, and was honored with a special edition of the journal feminism and psychology discussing the impact of the book on the 20th anniversary of the publication of the first edition of the book, which really critiques mainstream theories and research methods to help us understand whether research on child development tells us more about the child, the researchers or the social environment that both of these exists within. So whether you’re expecting a child or you’re a new parent, perhaps you’re newer to my work, or whether you already have a child who’s getting on in years, and you’ve been a listener for a while, you’re going to find something new in this conversation that helps you step outside these usual topics and ask well, how did we get here? And where are we going? And even is this where we want to go? Welcome Professor Berman. It’s such an honor to have you here.   Erica Burman 02:55 Thank you for inviting me.   Jen Lumanlan 02:57 So maybe we can start with a little topic at the beginning of all of this the study of child development. How do we start studying children? How did all this come about?   Erica Burman 03:05 Well, yes, it’s not a small question. And I guess there are different ways of telling that story of how child development came about. The conventional story that you will read about in child development textbooks usually talks about the emergence of the Child Study movement. In fact, many men of a certain kind of class background started to take an interest in their own children, studying them in some detail. So the first studies about children and childhood are of a sort of semi-formal kind, observational studies by the fathers, not the mothers, otherwise occupied and not intellectual enough to engage in this esteemed new area of study. So their diary studies, and indeed, that methodological approach, remain a very important one for the study of early childhood in general, especially very early childhood and language development, and so on. So the child study movement, in a sense, is both the beginning of the study of psychology and also psychiatry. And in a way, slight child psychology and psychiatry really were elaborated alongside each other, almost indistinguishable. The questions that were motivating those first studies and inquiries, it’s fair to say, I think we’re not really specifically about children. It was an interest in the study of the child as a way to explore much more general philosophical questions. Questions about nature and nurture themselves are sort of laid on to older questions about original sin or free will, etc. And we continue to live with those big philosophical questions that people tend to look to the study of childhood to solve, and I have to admit that, in a way, that’s what kind of brought me to study developmental psychology. It wasn’t that I was interested in children particularly, I just sort of felt like a true modern rationalist that this was a way to sort of engage in, you know, very general interests. I had was the case for Piaget, who was motivated to study, but it wasn’t just him that the origins of knowledge and how it developed through the study of the child. So were these kinds of philosophical questions. And people were sort of starting to explore them alongside a set of political concerns of the time and of the political structures of the time with the rise of the nation state and so on about the state of the population, about molding, in a sense, sort of knowing about and also controlling the future workforce, future citizens, etc. Now, all of that is, I think, sort of one version of the story of the origins of child development that is generally quite widely accepted. I think there’s another narrative, I would want to add in their second one, which I’ve already alluded to, about the rise of the nation state. All of this was happening alongside imperialist wars going on. I mean, these gentlemen who were studying children, but also the gentlemen who were going off and studying the flora and fauna, were to them exotic places and bringing them back. You know, if you can look around the English countryside, it’s full of plants that were brought from all over the world that these gentlemen tried to recreate it in their land that they owned, so that, you know, Britain’s full of rhododendron, but that’s the national plant of the Himalayas, Nepal, I think it is. So what was happening was that, in a way, the study of children emerged quite late in the scene, because really, the flora and fauna were of more interest for quite a long time. And it was only when these other kinds of political agendas started to surface about managing populations, including colonized populations, that children became a good route by which to think about that, and the management of parenting. But all of this, of course, was happening. It’s not just about psychology or child psychology, it was happening alongside the rise of other social sciences, you could say, like sociology and social policy. And I think it’s also worth bearing in mind that, as I said, these child studies, in a sense, seem to kick it off. So that’s the sort of second narrative, I think it’s important. And this third one, I think, is important in thinking about why childhood came to be seen as a distinct category. I mean, that’s where we need to sort of think more broadly, historically, and culturally and think about how the invention of childhood, we know that there is a history of childhood and what that means from Philippi raise onwards, that the invention of the idea of childhood as a distinct social category, rather than something that’s integrated in daily life, that coincided with emerging ideas within and from European culture, about the idea of the individual and that individual has a sort of interiority itself. Now that is really something that in terms of our ideas about ourselves, and awareness of ourselves really kind of starts from the mid-18th century onwards, these ideas about childhood were emerging alongside the idea of the individual and alongside the idea that that individual has an interiority you know, some sense of awareness of itself can reflect on separately from others. And that was emerging alongside other disciplines like the ideas associated with what we would now recognize to be biology and, equally at the same time, psychoanalysis, the ideas that then eventually were to be sort of named by Freud as psychoanalysis, so ideas about nature and ideas about history. And this is where I mean, I’m very convinced by the account that Carolyn Steedman wrote a long time ago about it’s called strange dislocations, childhood, and the idea of human interiority. I think it’s sort of 18 something Tto 19 something, historians always do that. So you have to situate the interest in childhood alongside these other sorts of developments in people’s ideas about the course of history, having a cause, having a going somewhere and having consequences. And I think all that invites, you know, several other kinds of questions. The first one is that when we study children, are we only studying children? I mean, it’s one of the claims I make in deconstructing developmental psychology, that a child always involves constituting positions for others around that child, whether it’s the proximal positions of the caregivers, the gender positions of all of that, or family or the state or whatever. So we can’t abstract the child from a set of relationships. And you can see, I’m a psychotherapist as well. Our fantasies of our lost selves, or our better selves, or our true selves, something like that, that gets played out in people’s hopes and fears and fantasies about childhood. And that’s all been going on for quite a long time, from the mid 18th century onwards. Because if you look at that history that Sally Shuttleworth writes about in of European childhood, there were always sort of crisis about child labor, about hothouse children and then being cramming and there’s always been moral panics, you might say about children’s sexuality, that’s always been a difficult area, etc, wider historical view is useful to see, generally speaking, the sort of hot issues we encounter in our day are not new, but are just a new take on a very long standing set of themes. But also, I think there are consequences for thinking about that the ways our fantasies about ourselves get tied up with what we think about and want for children. Those typically get in the way, in my opinion of our engagement with the actual embodied specific children in front of us. And I think I say this quite a lot in the book. You know, the third issue that arises, given that there is so much going on in the study of the child, is genuine confusion about what the unit of development is, as well as what the model of time is. I mean, are we talking about individual development? Are we talking about child development? Are we talking about national development because all of these concerns are all international development, they all get wrapped up into the study of the child in a way that I think becomes remarkably inattentive to particular children. Jen Lumanlan 11:58 Yeah, and I’ve been doing a lot of research on resilience over the last few days. And I think it really comes out there that many of the criteria that we use to judge children’s resilience are related to things like their executive function capabilities, their grades, their employment, their criminality, or lack thereof. And it’s pretty clear that the state has a very vested interest in a particular outcome here. And to the extent that they can support development in the younger years, and have it be cost effective later on, then, yeah, we’re talking about the development of the state, as we’re talking about how to support individual children. And of course, on the international stage, it plays out in similar statistics and the league tables of standardized test results, I guess, would be the most obvious one that comes to mind that absolutely, clearly, there’s this huge framework that it all sits within that we’re not just looking at the child, this has so many connections to how we think of ourselves and our place within society as well. And we just sort of reduce it back and think, Okay, if we can go back to the source, we’ll make it easier to understand, when actually maybe it introduces a whole bunch of other concerns. But I’m wondering if it’s possible to briefly trace how our understanding of children’s development has shifted, particularly since the 60s, I guess, when behaviorism was sort of the in way of seeing things. I don’t know if you want to go any further back than that. But I think there have been a few really key shifts that have happened since then. I’d love to get your perspective on them.   Erica Burman 13:19 Yeah, I suppose I would want to go a bit further back. Jen Lumanlan 13:22 I thought you might Erica Burman 13:23 A very psychoanalytically oriented study of the child. It was before, in an anglophone context, now quite a strict division between psychology and psychoanalysis. Although in other parts of the world, a lot of psychology is very psychoanalytic. So one has to be careful about the claims here. So those early child studies interested in emotions. And you can see that in Piaget, he was at of that whole sort of tranche of work. Although it was a bit later, he wasn’t interested in testing children, he was interested in trying to formulate the whole structure of children’s thought, and I don’t think he did it sufficiently relationally. But I think he was certainly doing some very interesting things that I did do by Piaget and sort of, like clinical or critical study myself at some point, as well as some, you know, engaging in a lot of the critiques. So before behaviorism, there was the sight of a few, like a very, sort of psycho dynamically oriented understanding of children. I mean, and it’s also worth saying in relation to psychiatry, too, we think of psychiatry as being very medical and empiricist and behavioral, but actually, the first DSM was very psychoanalytically informed. It’s important not to forget that sort of psychoanalytic history, because people kick back against it and don’t want to remember it, but it has its traces in various ways that I think we do need to be aware of in positive and negative ways. Social Work also used to be incredibly psychoanalytic both in the United States in North America and in Britain. And now it’s very hard to find traces of that. But It’s important to remember that there have been different models. Again, I’d like to just having made that point, step back once again, and say there’s one version of that story that you could...

For the first time, in this episode I bow out and and let listeners Jenny and Emma take over, who wanted to share how they’ve been supporting each other over the last few months.   They started from pretty different points: Emma wasn’t having parenting struggles, but often over-communicated with her husband and he would stonewall in response, agreeing to whatever she asked so she would stop talking. Then he would resist later, and she couldn’t understand why…because he had agreed, right?   Jenny’s sleep had been disturbed by her child for more than four years…she was exhausted, and had no idea how to deal with her rage-filled kindergartener who would hit her whenever he was upset.   Neither of them had much confidence that being on a Zoom call together for 40 minutes a week would help them.   Emma and her husband now communicate in a way that meets both of their needs, and can navigate the challenges that come up with their preschooler.   Jenny is sleeping! And she has learned how deep listening and true empathy help her son to feel really heard…and incidents that used to lead to 45 minute meltdowns that would disrupt the rest of the day are now over in 10 minutes, and are actually connecting for them.   Jenny and Emma did all this with a bit of information from me…but mostly by being fully present for each other in a small ‘village’ of parents, inside the slightly larger village of the Parenting Membership.   If you want help to break down the changes you want to make into tiny manageable steps and be held (gently!) accountable for taking them (or adjusting course if needed…), we’d love to have you join the three of us plus a group of likeminded parents in the membership.   Get the information you need and the support to actually implement it, all in what members call “the least judgmental corner of the internet.”   The Parenting Membership is now open for immediate enrollment. Sign up now!     Jump to highlights: 01:00 Jenny and Emma came up with the idea to record an episode for the podcast to talk about how their parenting has changed over the last year. 01:55 Emma wasn’t having major problems, but wanted to be prepared for the challenges that may happen down the road. 02:36 Jenny was struggling because she hadn’t had a full night’s sleep in 4 ½ years…and now prioritizes herself through the support of Emma and the members of the ACTion group. 03:55 An open Invitation to join the Parenting Membership. 04:45 Because Emma is a high achiever, she imagined parenthood to be a breeze. 06:57 Jenny believed that if you are prepared and serene, and you bring this calm energy to your pregnancy, you will have an easy child. 08:24 The lack of understanding of our values is what causes us to be conflicted about becoming parents. 12:00Our child’s big feelings are their way of letting us know that they are not okay. 14:30 It's great to have a community who we can trust, and who will support and respect our values 16:30 The ACTion group conversation once a week gives parents a foundation to parent more intentionally 18:26 Emma used the problem-solving method to find a solution for her child's resistance during nail cutting by trying to hypothesize her child’s feelings. 20:17 Needs can be met when you remove the ‘shoulds.’ 25:31 Jenny’s parenting has been a lot less tense over the past year and a half, which was a wonderful surprise. 30:48 Jenny saw big changes when she used a deep listening technique with her son during an episode of intense anger and frustration, which ended the episode much more quickly than usual! 37:25 It's life-changing to see a profound change in our children and ourselves when both of our needs are fulfilled.  

Adrianna and Tim had read all the parenting books. (And I mean ALL the books.)   But NOTHING seemed to be working.   They were still feeling frustrated with their kids on a very regular basis.   And their kids were fighting what seemed like every second of the day.   They joined the Parenting Membership last May, and the transformation our community has seen in them has been profound.   The shift started after we had a consult about their youngest daughter’s difficult behavior, which we realized was a sign of her unmet needs. (I do these 1:1 (or 1:2!) consults on a regular basis for members when I see them struggling with an issue that just can’t be addressed in writing.)   Ideas percolated. They increased the amount of 1:1 time they were spending with her, doing things she liked to do.   They attended a couple of group coaching calls and we talked more about their specific situation.   Things improved a bit.   But then it all came to a head when Adrianna posted in the community about her children’s fighting, which had become more intense than ever.   A whole lot of parents chimed in with ideas to support them, which are grounded in the ideas I’d previously discussed with her - but sometimes you need to hear things in a different way, with stories from parents who have just recently been through the same difficult stuff you’re experiencing, and they made it out the other side.   Suddenly something clicked for Adrianna. She started to see her children’s needs in a way she hadn’t before, and she started having super explicit conversations with them about their needs, and also her needs.   And then the magic started to happen, firstly in interactions between either Adrianna or Tim and their oldest child, Bodhi:   Then the two children began using these problem solving tools between themselves. All of a sudden these two children who had literally been tearing each other’s hair out could identify their own needs, and each other’s needs, and find solutions that work for both of them. And they’re five and three years old!   And all of this happened in what Adrianna calls the most supportive, least judgmental corner of the internet:   I invited Adrianna and Tim to tell us about their journey on the podcast.   Their response - delivered in unison - when I asked them: “So you’d read all the books, and you had so many doubts that ANYTHING could work for you…so why on earth did you join the membership?” was priceless.   Parenting Membership  If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out.   The Parenting Membership is now open for immediate enrollment. Sign up now!     Jump to highlights: 01:46 Overview of Adrianna and Tim's membership journey. 04:18 An open invitation to join the Parenting Membership. 06:06 Growing up in a dysfunctional household was not uncommon for either Adrianna or Tim. 08:57 Adrianna and Tim believed they were the best parents of the year until they began to sink. 10:10 The anger and irrationality that Tim displays toward Adrianna as a result of his frustrations. 11:03 How Adrianna was managing her mental health issues while also navigating the challenges presented by her two challenging children. 12:45 Tim and Adrianna are frustrated since they've tried everything to make parenthood work. 14:04 The Parenting Membership was the only hope for Adriana and Tim. 18:07 The significant impact on our child when we step down from their level. 19:15 How Adrianna was able to meet the needs of both of her children at the same moment. 22:14 Bodie and Remy practicing the ways in which both of their needs can be fulfilled. 25:27 The result of Adriana and Tim's child's unmet demand for his father. 26:49 Tim’s experience in learning different methods of parenting and his perspective on whether dads should really do this job. 28:13 Adriana and Tim's positive outlook for the future. 31:21 How the membership and tools help Adrianna and Tim strengthen their marriage 32:47 Adrianna’s shift from not seeing her needs as valid to having the confidence in understanding what her needs are.  

Recently someone posted a question in one of my communities: “Is it really so wrong to want my child to just LISTEN to me sometimes?  It seems like such a no-no in gentle parenting circles, and I’m worried that my child is growing up to be entitled and won’t know how to respect authority when they really HAVE to.” Parent Chrystal gave such a beautiful and eloquent response to this question that I asked her to come back on the show (her first visit was last year) to talk us through how she approaches getting her (three!  spirited!) children to listen to her…and what tools she uses instead.And this doesn’t end up creating entitled children who refuse to cooperate with any authority figure; in fact, her most spirited child was called a “conscientious and rule-abiding upstanding model student” by her teacher (which just about made Chrystal laugh out loud). Chrystal has been on this respectful parenting journey for a while now, but I learned during this interview that she first interacted with me in the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop, where she started transforming a lot of the battles she was having with her children into a collaborative, cooperative relationship.   Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you. Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Jump to highlights 02:37 Reasons we get triggered when our child isn’t listening to us. 03:38 An open invitation to join the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop. 04:50 Chrystal's manifestation that her parenting is effective. 06:06 Saying NO to our child isn’t necessarily the right answer. 06:57 Challenges that Chrystal had as someone who was brought up in a religious family. 07:58 At a young age, Chrystal was responsible for the needs of her mother and siblings. 09:58 How resilience will play a big role in our children. 10:50 Impacts on our child for having a lot of control and compliance. 11:20 Chrystal’s transition from being controlled to having freedom and autonomy. 12:26 As a result of having a strong-willed children, Chrystal experiences a lot pushback and challenges. 15:08 When to set limits and boundaries to our children. 18:04 Ways to navigate our younger child when we need to take a pause in a situation. 19:07 The difference between setting limits and boundaries. 21:15 The importance of respectful parenting. 23:09 Using body cues instead of saying NO. 25:30 Introduction to Problem Solving Conversation: Nonjudgmental Observation 26:33 Finding solutions that is grounded in meeting our needs, and the needs of our children as well. 31:02 Our children's resistance creates a "US VS. THEM" scenario. 36:39 The unique needs of having multiple children. 37:47 The lessons that Chrystal learned from the book called Siblings Without Rivalry. 41:58 White presenting child plays a big role in changing the systems. 45:38 Chrystal’s children showing their amazing empathy and respect for one another.

“On average, authoritative parents spanked just as much as the average of all other parents.  Undoubtedly, some parents can be authoritative without using spanking but we have no evidence that all or even most parents can achieve authoritative parenting without an occasional spank.”   I was fascinated by this statement, since authoritative parenting is the best style.  We know it’s the best, right?   I mean, everyone says it is.  Including me and who was the co-author on this paper this statement comes from?  None other than Dr. Diana Baumrind, creator of the Parenting Styles (although they weren’t called that then; they were originally called the Models of Parental Control.  Just to make sure we’re on the same page here, I’m going to say that again: Dr. Diana Baumrind, who created the parenting styles/model of parental control, says you can’t achieve the parenting style that has the ‘best’ outcomes for children without an occasional spank.   So in this episode we dig pretty deeply into what makes up the parenting styles, and what Dr. Baumrind and others found about the effectiveness of these styles, and what impacts they had on children.  (And I have to warn you now, the samples sizes we’re looking at to ‘prove’ that authoritative is the best parenting style are going to make your stomach churn.)   Questions this episode will answer What are the parenting styles that Dr. Diana Baumrind identified? Dr. Baumrind originally identified three parenting styles in her groundbreaking research: Authoritarian (high control, low warmth)Permissive (low control, high warmth)Authoritative (high control, high warmth). Later, other researchers added a fourth style—Uninvolved or Neglectful parenting (low control, low warmth). This completes the two-by-two grid framework we know today. The episode explores what Baumrind actually meant by these categories. They might not be helpful for modern parents trying to build healthy relationships with their children.   What's the difference between parenting styles and parental control? Were they originally the same thing? Many parents don't realize that what we now call "parenting styles" began as Dr. Baumrind's study of "Models of Parental Control." This shows that her research focused on how parents exercise authority over children. She wasn't looking to describe all possible parenting approaches. Most experts - including me! - just replicate what everyone else says: Authoritative is the best parenting style. But when we dig deeper we find that authoritative might not be as great as most experts claim.   Why does everyone say authoritative parenting is the best style? Authoritative parenting is widely promoted as the gold standard. It supposedly balances firm boundaries with emotional warmth.  Decades of research have shown that authoritative is the best of the three (later four) parenting styles that Dr. Baumrind identified.  But there’s no evidence that these are the only possible parenting styles.  Dr. Baumrind herself found another style that she called ‘harmonious’ but she chose not to explore it. Researchers have just accepted that there are only four styles. Within these four, authoritative is often (but not always) best for children.   How large were the sample sizes in Dr. Baumrind's original parenting styles research? The sample sizes in Dr. Baumrind's original research were shockingly small. You might then question how such an influential idea became so widely accepted on such limited evidence. This is a perfect example of why we should critically examine even the most established parenting theories.   Is authoritative best in all cultures and circumstances? Authoritative parenting is often presented as universally ideal. The episode examines how different cultural contexts value different parenting approaches. What works well in one cultural setting might not transfer to another. An emphasis on authoritative parenting often reflects Euro-centric values and assumptions. The podcast explores this cultural dimension and challenges the one-size-fits-all recommendation.   What alternative approaches to parent-child relationships does the episode suggest? The episode introduces alternatives that move beyond the control-based framework of the traditional parenting styles. We explore approaches that honor both parent and child needs. We don't have to default to authoritarian control or permissive lack of boundaries. These alternative frameworks offer a more nuanced understanding of the parent-child relationship.   What you'll learn in this episode The widely accepted "authoritative” parenting style might not actually be the best approachDr. Diana Baumrind created the parenting 'styles.' Surprisingly, she thought authoritative parents should spank their children.We'll describe the 2x2 grid of parenting styles, which describe parents' warmth and control. Each one describes a particular parenting style and how parents using that style interact with their kids.The original research describing the parenting styles used very small sample sizes. Dr. Baumrind deliberately tried to recruit only middle class White children in her hometown of Berkeley, CA in the 1960s.Dr. Baumrind wanted to explore how parents controlled their children, not what parenting style is best for children.Cultural context shapes how we interact with our children. This challenges the one-size-fits-all recommendation of authoritative parentingWe'll look at alternative approaches to parent-child relationships. These honor both your needs and your child's needs without relying on control-based frameworks   If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you. Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration.   I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Jump to highlights 01:33 Introduction to today’s topic 04:05 Influential figures like Dr. Larzelere and Dr. Baumrind supported spanking within authoritative parenting. 16:19 Traditional parenting expects child compliance, emphasizing authority over autonomy, and conformity over individuality. 28:30 Dr. Baumrind's parenting styles theory categorizes parenting into two extremes, neglecting the middle ground of "harmonious parenting." 38:30 Harmonious parenting emphasizes reasoning and mutual understanding while behavioral compliance can create mixed messages about control and values, reflecting broader societal power dynamics. 46:19 Parenting styles must adapt to cultural diversity and consider alternative parenting goals, emphasizing mutual understanding and meeting children's needs. 49:46 Understanding and meeting the needs of children and parents can eliminate the need for punishment.   References: Baumrind, D. (1966). Effects of authoritative parental control on child behavior. Child Development 887-907. Baumrind, D. (1996). A blanket injunction against disciplinary use of spanking is not warranted by the data. Pediatrics 98(4) 828-831. Baumrind, D. (1971). Current patterns of parental authority. Developmental Psychology Monograph 4(1, Part 2), 1-103. Baumrind, D. (1971). Note: Harmonious parents and their preschool children. Developmental Psychology 4(1), 99-102. Baumrind, D. (1983). Rejoinder to Lewis’s reinterpretation of parental firm control effects: Are authoritative families really harmonious? Psychological Bulletin 94(1), 132-142. Baumrind, D. (1996). The discipline controversy revisited. Family Relations 45(4), 405-414. Baumrind, D. (2013). Is a pejorative view of power assertion in the socialization process justified? Review of General Psychology 17(4), 420-427. Baumrind, D., Larzelere, R.E., Owens, E.B. (2010). Effects of preschool parents’ power assertive patterns and practices on adolescent development. Parenting Science and Practice 10, 157-201. Cowan, P.A., Cowan, C.P., Weinstein, R., Owens, E. (2020). In Memoriam: Diana B Baumrind. University of California. Retrieved from https://senate.universityofcalifornia.edu/in-memoriam/files/diana-baumrind.html Darling, N., & Steinberg, L. (1993). Parenting style as context: An integrative model. Psychological Bulletin 113(3), 487-496. Greenspan, S. (2006). Rethinking “harmonious parenting” using a three-factor discipline model. Child Care in Practice 12(1), 5-12. Garcia, O.F., Lopez-Fernandez, O., & Serra, E. (2021). Raising Spanish children with an antisocial tendency: Do we know what the optimal parenting style is? Journal of Interpersonal Violence 36 (13-14), 6117-6144. Gross, A.K. (2021, October 18). How White supremacy culture shows up in our families +practices for how we can dismantle it. Mistress Syndrome. Retrieved from https://mistresssyndrome.com/2021/10/18/how-white-supremacy-culture-shows-up-in-our-families-practices-for-how-we-can-dismantle-it/ Larzelere, R.E., & Baumrind, D. (2010). Are spanking injunctions scientifically supported? Law & Contemporary Problems 73, 57. Lewis, C.C. (1981). The effects of parental firm control: A reinterpretation of findings. Psychological Bulletin 90(3), 547-563.

In her book Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home, Toko-pa Turner talks about the disconnection we feel from others, as well as from our own selves, because of the experiences we’ve had in our childhood.  While Toko-pa’s childhood was traumatic by any definition, even those of us who didn’t experience severe trauma were told - either verbally or non-verbally: You’re not enough.  You’re not good enough.   Or even: You’re too much.And we shut off that part of us, whatever it was.  Our sense of joy, our creativity, our need for autonomy.   We set aside those needs so we could be accepted by our family, whose love we craved more than anything in the world.But that doesn’t mean we need to always live our lives in this way.  We can accept the pain and suffering we’ve experienced, and incorporate that into new, more whole ways of being in the world.  A big part of this is finding a new relationship with our needs - seeing them, understanding them, being willing to articulate them.  Being willing to ask for help in meeting our needs - from our children, our partners, and our communities.  Toko-pa points out that our culture teaches us that the giver is in the position of strength; they are rich and secure and don’t need anyone’s help.  The receiver is the weak, poor, needy one (the whole thing smacks of femininity, doesn’t it?).  So to be in the position of strength we give and give and give until we don’t have anything left.But we have needs too, and we deserve to have these met, and to invite others to help us meet them - and this episode helps us to get started.I want to remind you of a couple of upcoming opportunities if you see that your own needs are not being met right now.   Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits   If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.   Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up for the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop.   Click the banner to learn more.       Toko-Pa Turner's Book Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home (Affiliate Link).   Jump to highlights 02:18 We create separation because we worry that we won’t be acceptable to the world. 02:50 An open invitation to join the free Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits Workshop. 05:01 Toko-Pa’s quest for belonging leaves her hungry for her mother's love and recognition. 06:38 Our first experiences of not belonging come at the hands of our families 08:51 Due to the dogma we have lived, we learn to hide, dismiss, or separate our feelings that are not valued 12:03 The desire to teach our child a lesson comes from our own pain, resulting from our own trauma. 13:25 Women are raised with extensive cultural history programming that dictates how a proper lady should behave. 18:54 The Death Mother is an archetype that represents a mother who takes control of her children's narrative lives in order to overcome her own traumas. 24:12 Being a mother has no worth in our culture, because they live to serve their children. 26:50 We gain a sense of belonging when we can help others. 33:43 The fear and shame associated with being an imposition on others. 37:44 You burden people when you show that you are in pain and in need. 42:00 Being seen is a paradox. It's the thing that we want more than anything, but we fear it more than anything too. 48:22 The purpose of our dreams. 54:53 Belonging yourself to those who need you - both human and other-than-human.

I don’t know about you, but I spent a LOT of time thinking about my birth plan before Carys was born.  I mean, that thing went through multiple iterations as I read new books about the birth process and thought about what I wanted mine to be like.   And I got lucky; we didn’t stray too far from the plan (except that that whole ‘urge to push’ thing?  Well I never felt that.  It seemed like she was quite happy where she was.  Perhaps that explains why she enjoys being wrapped in fluffy blankets so much?)   So I put all this effort into what the Big Day would be like, and practically zero into what life would be like afterward.   I mean, we got the nursery ready without realizing that she wasn’t going to spend any time in it at all for the first three months.   And the whole visitors thing - well that didn’t even cross my mind.   I guess I just assumed that people would come and visit, because that’s what people do after you have a baby.   But most of the time I didn’t want visitors!   I spent a good chunk of the first 10 days in tears.   (In fact my husband and I had a mini-celebration at bedtime on the 10th day because it was the first time I hadn’t cried since she was born.)   Sometimes I was able to get dressed and greet people…other times I was curled up in bed crying while my husband did the entertaining.   The idea of saying “no visitors yet please” simply didn’t cross my mind.   That’s what we discuss in today’s episode with Renee Reina of The Mom Room.  She was lucky enough to have her Mom living close by when she had her baby, who became her gatekeeper - friends and family would check in with Renee’s Mom before coming over.   Renee was able to create the calm, peaceful environment at home that she wanted to bring baby into - and re-engage with the world on her own terms, when she was ready.   In this episode we talk about how to make those early days of motherhood work for you and your family - no matter what social conventions say are the right things to do.   Jump to highlights 01:36 Introduction of episode 06:37 What was birth like for Renee 13:14 How was it like to navigate people who want to see the baby 21:10 Renee’s routine in taking care of the baby 29:22 White supremacy and capitalism 30:42 Maternal gatekeeping 31:28 Murder tendencies during postpartum 38:26 Advice for parent afterbirth 41:47 Realization during the episode   [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"]   Jen Lumanlan  00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be   Jenny  00:09 so do you get tired of hearing the same old interest in podcast episodes? I don't really But Jen thinks you might. I'm Jenny, a listener from Los Angeles, testing out a new way for listeners to record the introductions to podcast episodes. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it in context for you as well. So you can decide whether and how to use this new information. I listen because parenting can be scary and it's reassuring to know what the experts think. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. You can also join the free Facebook group to continue the conversation. Over time you might get sick of hearing me read this intro so come and record one yourself. You can read from a script gents provided or have some real fun with it and write your own. Just go to your parenting mojo.com forward slash record the intro. I can't wait to hear yours.   Jen Lumanlan  01:26 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're going to look at another topic that we can file under things I'd never given a moment's thought about before Carys was born, which is what those early days at home were going to be like. Looking back on it, I have really have no idea why my preparation for her birth literally stopped at her birth, and didn't give a moment's thought to what would happen even in the immediate days afterwards. And I have to say, I felt really lost. I cried every day for the first 10 days. And on day four, it was pretty much continual from start to finish. And thank goodness, my good friend, Michelle had told me there would be a lot of hormone rebalancing on that day, so I knew it was coming. Otherwise, I would have thought I was actually falling apart. Things did get a bit better over the following days. And on day 10, my husband and I had a little celebration at bedtime because it was the first day since she had been born that I didn't cry. If you're expecting a baby in the coming months, or if you have one under the age of one, then the right from the start course is designed to give you the information you need to go from just surviving each day to truly thriving. In this course that I run with Hannah and Kelty of upbringing you'll find information on topics like getting the sleep you both needed to function, making choices about feeding, supporting development, independent play, navigating the difficult sibling relationship if you already have an older child, and so much more. Whether you're brand new at this parenting thing, or if you have one or more children already, you know things have to be different his time around. The right from the start course will get you out of the midnight googling about all the things that might be wrong with your child and into a sense of calm and confidence that you've got this. You'll meet an amazing group of parents who are on this journey as well, figuring this stuff out alongside you. With support from Hannah and Kelty as well as me, you'll even be able to join group coaching calls to get all of your questions answered. Parents who have taken the course say firstly, they had no idea that they even needed these group coaching calls, but they really did. And secondly, there's no resource out there that considers them to be just as important as their baby in this relationship. And as we'll hear about from my guest today, all of the attention is on the mother when the baby's on the way, and as soon as the baby is here, the mother is relegated to the background. And their only role is to provide a suitable environment for the baby. And right from the start, we hold you to be just as important and valued person as your baby, and that your baby actually learns really important things when you hold this to be true. Enrollment for right from the start is open now until Wednesday, April 13. And sliding scale pricing is available. And so my guest today in our sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode is Renee Reina of the Mom Room. Welcome, Renee. It's so great to have you here.   Renee  04:24 Thank you for having me. Yeah.   Jen Lumanlan  04:26 So what was this transition from not being a parent to being a parent like for you?   Renee  04:31 It was a lot. So I had my son. He's three now. I had him when I was 34 years old. So I had been in grad school living by myself, focusing on myself, setting goals for myself, just focused on those two then having a baby, I took a 12 month maternity leave for my PhD program.   Jen Lumanlan  04:53 Because you're in Canada we should mention.   Renee  04:55 Yes, I am Canadian. I know people are always like "12 months?" So, you know, in the first 12 months, I would say things were good. Like, there were lots of things in early postpartum that blew my mind. And that is why I started the blog. I started talking about these things on social media. And then I found “Oh, like, I'm not the only one.” Everyone else thinks the same thing. In the first 12 months, I was very focused on it's just me, it's my son, and my husband was working full time. So I had that mindset going into the 12 month maternity leave that I didn't have anything else to worry about. So that was really nice. And I think something that I wish all moms could experience you know, and have that time to just be like focused on transitioning into motherhood and focusing on your children.   Jen Lumanlan  05:48 Yeah, it's a massive lack, isn't it? With no guarantee of paid leave in the US, if you're lucky enough to work for a big company that offers it, you might get it. I think it was three months when I did it. Many companies are now expanding to six months but many parents take three or four days off and then go back to work and they have to come in the bathrooms cafe or restaurant or something. I mean, it's just horrific.   Renee  06:09 In Canada now, we have the option to extend to 18 months and you If you can split the time with your partner, yeah. So like my husband's self-employed, he's a surgeon. So that's not an option for him. But if you work for a company where you have benefits and insurance, you can split the maternity leave or parental leave with your partner. So yeah, it breaks my heart to know that not everyone has that as an option.   Jen Lumanlan  06:33 Okay? And so what was birth like for you?   Renee  06:37 So I was induced at 38 weeks because Milo was growing fine and then he kind of plateaued. So the thinking was, “let's get him out in the real world, and you can feed him, and then he'll, you know, grow up outside of your uterus.” So I was induced at 38 weeks. And I have to say, the labor and delivery part was pretty good. Like, I don't really have any complaints. I had my husband there. My sister was with me. The scariest part for me was the epidural. To be honest, yeah.   Jen Lumanlan  07:12 And Did it meet your expectations? Was it the same kind of birth that people have on TV or?   Renee  07:17 No, not at all. So it's so funny, because that's something that I talk about because I think a lot of moms feel shame for not feeling this like overwhelming sensation of love and bond. This bond between their babies as soon as they give birth, and that was me, to be honest. When Milo was born, they put him on my chest, and I was literally just like, impartial, like, I was neutral. I was just like, "oh, okay, so this is the little person that was inside of me," like I had no connection. And it really took a while for me to build that connection. And now that he's three years old and he's developing a little personality, like, I find the older he got the more I fall in love with him. And you know, seeing him as his own little person, like it just grew. So it's something that not a lot of people talk about. And they feel shame, if they don't feel that at their birth. And I did not have a traumatic labor and delivery, as many people do. I think a lot of people have that expectation going into labor and delivery. And then when it's not there, they think there's something wrong with them. And the same goes for early postpartum. A lot of people have a low or depressed mood. Some people have postpartum depression. And so it's like this conflicting society is telling you that you should be the happiest you've ever been. And this is the best time of your life. But you don't feel that. And if society is saying that, and that's what everyone else is showing on social media and on TV and, you know, in movies, are you really going to speak up about not being the happiest you've ever been? Because, you know, you're afraid of being judged. And people thinking that? “Oh, she must not like being a mom,” or, you know, “she's not fit to be a mom.” So yeah, it's a problem. And this is why I speak out about things like this, because every time I do, the response is overwhelming with people who are like, "Wow, me too." And, you know, I just love that people can see my content, read all the comments and be like, "Oh, my God, this is such a common thing."   Jen Lumanlan  09:30 Yeah, and you brought me back to the moment when Carys was put on my chest as well. And we have the very first picture of her that was taken. It was her on my chest. And my eyes are screwed up because I'm crying. And the thought that's in my mind is, well, I don't hate you. Because I had a difficult relationship with my mom, I was fully prepared to not love her coming out. And I was fortunate as well, and had a relatively medically easy birth, and had absolutely no idea how I was going to feel, and so to have it be neutral was a win for me. That was a real win. And then yeah, absolutely. Those first 10 days, I was so lucky. Actually, a Canadian friend told me about the day four hormone shifts. And I didn't stop crying the entire day. And if she hadn't told me that, I mean, where is my doctor on this? Where is all of the support we're supposed to have to help us understand what's coming? If she hadn't told me that, I would have thought there is something deeply wrong with me because I cannot stop crying, and I think on day 10, my husband and I had a little celebration at the end of the day because I hadn't cried for the first time.   Renee  10:26 And to speak about the crying, which I don't know why this like, left my memory for the first week, every day at 7pm. I would just cry uncontrollably.   Jen Lumanlan  10:39 Oh, wow.   Renee  10:40 And I remember thinking, you know, I kept going to these doctor's appointments so that they could measure Milo's head and stuff. And I was like, what about me? Like, I just gave birth, and I can't even sit in the doctor's waiting room. I can't sit down because I'm in pain, but I'm going to bring my baby there. And everyone's gonna, like, you know, “oh, like a baby.” And then they're going to measure his head, and check his testicles, and whatever. And I'm just sitting there like, okay, and I remember my doctor happened to be a young mother herself. She had young kids, and she looked at me in the appointment, and she said, "How are you doing?" And she had a resident with her, and I just broke down crying. Like if she hadn't just taken the time to be like, "How are you doing?" And looking at me in my eyes. I probably wouldn't have said anything. Yeah, And you know, I am very self-aware and understand, you know, feelings of anxiety and things like that. So I can imagine what most people go through and are not able to verbalize to their partners, family, or friends when they're going through a difficult time. And I remember her saying, you know, it's really common for the first couple of weeks when the sun goes down for women to start crying, because it's like, scary. You know, your support person has left for the day. You are kind of like relaxing the baby sleeping hoepfully. Now you have time to kind of like, let everything out. It was so interesting. And luckily for me, it ended up going away after the week. But yeah, I'll never forget every 7pm jeopardy would start and I'm just crying.   Jen Lumanlan  12:25 And it wasn't because the questions were so bad.   Renee  12:28 Oh, yeah.   Jen Lumanlan  12:30 Yeah, it reminds me actually of a study I read. And I'm not going to be able to quote this precisely. And it was old, which you'll understand why this is important in a second, but it said something along the lines of was "the biggest predictor of whether doctors,” and of course, it means male doctors, “would provide appropriate care to mothers after a birth was whether or not their wife had a baby."   Renee  12:50 Interesting     Jen Lumanlan  12:51 It had nothing to do with their training. It was whether their wife, and of course, assuming a cisgender heterosexual partnership had a baby. And so that I think that just speaks to the complete inadequacy of preparation that doctors get in terms of seeing as a complete set as a unit. And that it's not just all about the baby. But we're important to in those early days when everybody wants to come and see the baby. That was another challenging period for me. What was that like for you? How did you navigate that?   Renee  13:20 This is my favorite topic to talk about. And it always blows up on TikTok when I talk about this topic. So when I was pregnant, in the days leading up to labor and delivery, I suddenly had this feeling like I didn't really want people at the hospital for sure. So I think it was like my mom and my dad came and visited Milo quickly and then, and my sister was there because she was in the delivery room. Then I went home. My mom was always around. She lived down the street at that time, which was amazing. And my mom was like my chosen support person. I wanted my mom there in my head. I had Milo on a Friday. My husband was back at work on Monday. So my mom was always there, you know, helping with everything. And so, she was kind of like my gatekeeper. Because she would be like, "Do you want people to come over?" I had Milo in my hometown. So all my family was there and people wanted to come visit. And I was like, "No, I don't want anybody in the house." I was lucky that my mom was kind of the gatekeeper, like having to answer to people. So I didn't have people texting me. I didn't have to say like, "Oh, I'm not really feeling up to it or like make excuses." She was the one that was staying in contact with everyone. So this lasted for probably a few weeks. You know, every once in a while my mom would check in and I was like, "Nope, I don't want anybody coming." It's really interesting because a few weeks after I gave birth, we had a family function. Someone had passed away, and so I went to the function, and I remember my uncle coming up to me and saying, "Oh, I guess you're really having a hard time." And I said, "What? Why are you saying that?" And he's like, "Oh, just because, you know, you didn't want people over and stuff." And I was like, "Well, isn't this interesting?" You know, because I just gave birth, I don't want people coming in and visiting. And I just want to be alone and focus on Milo, get into a routine to heal physically. People are assuming that there's something wrong, that I am having this terrible time. And it wasn't the case at all. So when that happened, I started to talk about this topic of not wanting visitors after giving birth, because on TV and in movies, people are in and out. And in most people's situations, people are just in and out like a revolving door. And the moms are just smiling. And it's, you know, oh, it's like a happy time for everyone to be there. But for the most part, people, like women, after giving birth do not want visitors. And there's a difference between a visitor and a support person. I always say like, if I can't just get up, leave the room and go take a nap. When you're over or I can't pass gas in front of you or breastfeed, then you're not a support person. Again, I talk a lot about this topic. And it breaks my heart to...