The Paradoxical Nature of TEAM In today’s podcast, we are honored to feature Matthew May, MD, a brilliant and beloved colleague of Rhonda and David. Rhonda suggested the topic for today’s podcast on the Paradoxical Nature of TEAM, and Matt and I were more than excited to dive into this cool topic! We reviewed the paradoxical nature of the four components of TEAM. As you will see, each paradox requires one of the four "great deaths" of the therapist's "self," or "ego." The Paradoxes in T = Testing TEAM therapists assess how the patient is feeling “right now” in at least six dimensions just before the start and just after the end of every therapy session using brief, extremely accurate scales for negative feelings like depression, suicidal urges, anxiety, and anger, as well as happiness and marital / relationship satisfaction. These scales are like an emotional X-ray machine so therapists can see, for the first time, exactly how effective or ineffective they are in every single therapy session. You can also see exactly what happens to the patient’s feelings between therapy sessions. Therapists may make several potentially disturbing discoveries during Testing. His or her perception of how the patient feels are frequently wildly inaccurate. The therapist’s perceptions of the degree of improvement in his patients may be shocking, since the therapist will often discover that patients have not improved, and may even feel worse. These “disturbing” discoveries can be celebrated, because the therapist, if humble and open, can accept the fact that his or her therapeutic strategies are not sufficient, and that meaningful change has not yet happened. The therapist can search for and try different treatment methods that may be more helpful for each patient. Paradoxically, the therapist’s failures become golden opportunities for learning and growth every day, and your patients will become the greatest teachers you’ve ever had. This involves the first of four “great deaths” for the TEAM therapist—the death of the “self” that has expert understanding of how patients actually feel. You will discover that your perceptions are very inaccurate in many or even most situations. This discovery can transform the way you practice if you have the courage and humility to try something new! The Paradoxes in E = Empathy At the start of the session, the therapist attempts to listen and provide an empathic, compassionate connection with the patient, reflecting back how the patient is thinking and feeling and convey acceptance and warmth. But here’s what happens in TEAM. When assessing empathy with the “What’s My Grade Technique” during the session, the therapist will often / nearly always discover that you didn’t really “get” the patient. When you review your scores on the Empathy and Helpfulness Scales that patients complete at the end of every session, most therapists are shocked to see that they get failing grades from most or nearly all patients after most or nearly all therapy sessions. Paradoxically, this is a big plus because it allows the therapist to explore his / her failures with the patient in a spirit of humility and curiosity at the start of the next session. If done skillfully, this can lead to therapeutic breakthroughs as well as a significant deepening of the therapeutic alliance. But this also requires a second “great death” of the therapist’s ego, because patients’ criticisms on the feedback forms will nearly always be accurate, and often biting. If you have the courage and skill to acknowledge that truth, the therapeutic relationship can be instantly transformed. Learning skillful empathy skills, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, requires tremendous commitment and practice, and the “beginner’s mindset.” The Paradoxes in A = Assessment of Resistance (formerly called Paradoxical Agenda Setting) During this phase, the therapist brings the patient’s subconscious resistance to conscious awareness, and melts the resistance away using approximately 20 “resistance melting” techniques, such as Positive Reframing, the Paradoxical Invitation, the Acid Test, the Gentle Ultimatum, the Externalization of Resistance, Sitting with Open Hands, and more. During this phase, the therapist, paradoxically, does NOT try to “help” the patient, but instead assumes the voice of the patient’s subconscious resistance, helping the patient suddenly “see” why she or he actually should NOT change. Paradoxically, the moment the patient “gets it,” there will be an illumination, and the patient will suddenly lose his or her resistance and become way more open and collaborative. This what makes the rapid recovery in TEAM-CBT possible. The patient also discovers, paradoxically, that his or her symptoms, like depression, hopelessness, and feelings of worthlessness, anxiety, or rage, are NOT the expression of what is wrong with him or her, like a “mental disorder” or “chemical imbalance in the brain--but the manifestation of what is right with him or her. In other words, there are tremendous benefits hidden in every negative thought and feeling. In addition, every negative thought and feeling reveals something positive and awesome about the patient and his or her core values. These discoveries can be mind-blowing for the patient and therapist. Matt and Rhonda do an entertaining role play of a woman who is enraged with her husband, and blames him for all of the problems in her marriage. Matt beautifully illustrates (as he always does!) exactly how to “Sit with Open Hands” and transform her angry resistance into enthusiastic collaboration and a willingness to examine her own role in the problem. Matt and David also discuss an amazing concept called “therapeutic entanglement,” borrowed from quantum physics. They explain how the minds of the therapist are often connected, constantly mirroring each other during the session. So, the more the therapist becomes the resistant and oppositional part of the patient’s subconscious mind, the more the patient assumes the helpful mind an role of the therapist. This phase of the therapy involves the third “great death,” because the therapist’s “helping” or “rescuing” ego has to die. That’s because your job is to see exactly why the patient should not change, and to help the patient discover this as well. The moment the patient “sees” this, and “gets it” at the gut level, recovery will be just a stone’s throw away. The Paradox in M = Methods. At this stage, the therapist focuses on one of the patient’s negative thoughts, like “I’m a loser,” or “I’m unloveable,” or “I’m a hopeless case,” and selects ten or fifteen M = Methods to challenge and crush the thought. Methods might include Explain the Distortions, Examine the Evidence, the Paradoxical Double Standard, the Externalization of Voices, the Acceptance Paradox, and more. TEAM-CBT includes more than 100 methods drawn from more than a dozen schools of therapy. The goal is not therapeutic success, but therapeutic failure. That’s because the faster you fail, the faster you’ll get to the technique that works. And the very moment the patient stops believing the Negative Thought that’s causing his or her negative feelings, the feelings will change. This phenomenon can sometimes be dramatic, even mind blowing. But even in this process, the therapist is almost always playing the role of the patient’s negative thoughts, and the patient is the one who is arguing for change. The M = Methods involves the death of the therapist’s “expert self,” thinking that you’re going to help, rescue or save the patient with your favorite brand or school of therapy, or the exciting new method you learned in some workshop and taught by some charismatic guru. TEAM involves giving up all the schools of therapy, and the spirit of “failing joyously” using a wide variety of methods drawn from more than a dozen schools of therapy. TEAM is not a new school of therapy, but a science-based, data-driven framework for how all therapy works. And so, that’s a little peek into the extensively paradoxical nature of TEAM-CBT! What’s the point in having such a paradoxical approach to therapy? I (David) can only speak from personal experience, I love having tools that can work dramatically and quickly for the vast majority of my patients. That’s because the moment they “recover,” I “recover,” too, and we both become euphoric. So I’m highly motivated to push for rapid and dramatic changes, and this is usually (but not always) possible. I love having a form of therapy that makes patient resistance virtually impossible. I no longer have to deal with resistance. It is impossible for a patient to resist, due in large part to the Buddhist concept of “sitting with open hands.” I love empowering my patients so that they don’t have to hang around with me for months or years waiting for change that never happens. It’s exciting to put the tools for change in their hands, so they’ll know how to deal with the inevitable relapses of negative thoughts and feelings that all human beings will experience, from time to time, for the rest of their lives. Rhonda and I are convinced that Dr. May is one of the greatest therapists on the planet earth. If you have a question or would like to contact Dr. May, please check out his website at: (www.matthewmaymd.com) Rhonda and David

Ask Rhonda, Matt and David! Ask David #243 May 24, 2021 David and Ronda answer your questions about the role of hope, treating court-ordered patients, suicide threats, being a virgin, and moral scrupulosity. Guest expert, Dr. Matthew May, joins us for this fascinating podcast featuring questions from fans like you!  V3A asks: What is the role of hope? EdG asks: How would you deal with a patient who doesn’t like you or doesn’t want to come for treatment, but has been required by either an employer or the courts? Preetika asks: Recently, a client said she felt suicidal and that made me feel suicidal about anything untoward happening on my watch! I was ‘scared stiff!’ Please do a podcast if possible on therapist fears and dilemmas. Dale asks: How would you do Positive Reframing with someone who is suicidal? Miho writes: From church and from my parents, I have been told repeatedly I need to save myself for marriage thus this has been my core belief when I am dating. Although it had never bothered me before, now that I am in my last 20s it seems I have heightened anxiety and misaligned expectations when dating as literally no one around me thinks in this way, and I have been told I do not "look" like I am inexperienced. May I know which would be the best tool for combatting other people's opinions when it really does seem that their opinion is the "truth" of the world? Robyn writes: I would very much like to hear about how you treat patients suffering OCD with moral/religious scrupulosity. * * * V3A asks: What is the role of hope? Hi David, how do you fit the cultivation of hope into TEAM-CBT? Being such an important aspect of recovery, it seems to be most needed in those that most need help, creating a seemingly unwinnable situation for those people. If someone has enough hope to seek treatment, is that enough to make a recovery? * * * EdG asks: Just listened to Podcast 025 on how to relate to a patient you dislike, Very useful! What about the opposite situation? How do you deal with a patient who may have a hidden agenda, like coming to you in order to avoid a legal problem or because s/he was ordered by an employer or the courts? Thanks, EdG. That's sometimes fairly easy, and might make this an Ask David. I once told such a patient that if he wanted to work with me he'd have to have an agenda of something he really wanted to change, and he would also have to do tremendous amounts of psychotherapy homework, and that this was non-negotiable, and that he or she might prefer going to another therapist who would be more of a pushover! In my limited experience, this was very effective, and seemed to motivate the man who came to me. He did, in fact, work tremendously hard! david PS We can get Rhonda's take on it, as she does forensic work. * * * Preetika asks: Recently, a client said she felt suicidal and that made me feel suicidal about how anything untoward happening on my watch! I was ‘scared stiff!’ Please do a podcast if possible on therapist fears and dilemmas. Dear Dr Burns, Thanks for sharing your wonderful podcasts, they are of immense value. I have been using your brief mood surveys and though I found it tiresome initially, I realized its value when I I uncovered suicidal thoughts in a patient that came forth only because of repeating the mood survey each session. Further, do you think a brief behavior survey at the start of a session is beneficial to record sleep, eating, and self harm patterns is needed to assess how clients are doing in between sessions? Does it have value? Recently, a client said she felt suicidal and that made me feel suicidal about how anything untoward happening on my watch! I was ‘scared stiff!’ Please do a podcast if possible on therapist fears and dilemmas. Thanks for so many continuing insights and for making therapy feel real, Preetika Hi Preetika, Perhaps you can search on website using search function and find the podcast on suicide prevention. Then let know what you think. When you use the Brief Mood Survey and Evaluation of Therapy Session, you said it was tiresome at first. What were your scores on the Empathy Scale? Scores below 20 are failing grades. Most of my colleagues, and myself, find this anything but "tiresome," but rather dynamic and fantastically challenging. Also, what percent reduction do you see in patient's depression scores within sessions? This shows your level of skill and effectiveness. 25% to 35% reduction within a session is a fairly good benchmark of sorts. This is called the Recovery Coefficient. Have you looked at that? I find it pretty exciting, and also challenging, especially when the scores don't change, and also when they do1 Thanks for the great question. David * * * Dale asks: How would you do Positive Reframing with someone who is suicidal? Would you suggest that it says that they have a strong self-awareness of the severity of their hopelessness that protects them from more disappointments? Or perhaps a wake-up call message from there awareness of some kind? All the best Dale Hi Dale, Suicide is handled differently, in part due to the legal stipulations that make therapists guilty, and you can use the search function to find and listen to my podcasts on this topic. Thanks! David * * * Miho writes: From church and from my parents, I have been told repeatedly I need to save myself for marriage thus this has been my core belief when I am dating. Although it had never bothered me before, now that I am in my last 20s it seems I have heightened anxiety and misaligned expectations when dating as literally no one around me thinks in this way, and I have been told I do not "look" like I am inexperienced. May I know which would be the best tool for combatting other people's opinions when it really does seem that their opinion is the "truth" of the world? Hello Dr. Burns, First of all, thank you (and Rhonda!) so much for providing us with a great podcast. It has helped me tremendously and it is great to hear both of your voices. Your book "Feeling Great" is amazing as well and I just can't find enough words to express my gratitude for all that you do. I have 2 questions regarding romantic relationships and your opinion would be much appreciated if you have time. (I am a female in my late 20s) 1) I feel that I tend to associate past events to the present, for example when a guy tells me that he is busy with work, even if he is genuinely busy and there is proof, I remember the time my ex-boyfriend made that excuse to actually hide the fact that he was going out clubbing and doing drugs. It is not that I don't trust the person in front of me, but rather the feelings of anxiety from past creeps up on me due to those thoughts and makes me insecure (if that makes sense). I am not sure which tool I should use to get over this kind of thinking, as in the moment when I reframe my thoughts it works, but soon after another example would set me off again. 2) From church and from my parents, I have been told repeatedly I need to save myself for marriage thus this has been my core belief when I am dating. Although it had never bothered me before, now that I am in my last 20s it seems I have heightened anxiety and misaligned expectations when dating as literally no one around me thinks in this way, and I have been told I do not "look" like I am inexperienced. May I know which would be the best tool for combatting other people's opinions when it really does seem that their opinion is the "truth" of the world? Warmest regards, Miho Hi Miho, Thanks. I will add this to the Ask David list. It will take some time, as we have lots of great questions listed at the moment. I resonate, though, as I was raised in a religious family and told not to kiss girls, etc. which was, I think, damaging.. Sex is natural and inevitable, and perhaps best left “undemonized.” At any rate, you would need to decide on your own moral values, and then we could deal with any fears of disapproval from one side or the other. Really love and appreciate your openness. d * * * Robyn writes: I would very much like to hear about how you treat patients suffering from OCD with moral/religious scrupulosity. Dear David and Rhonda: Thank you so much for your calming, effective and often laugh-out-loud funny podcasts, filled with a generosity of wisdom. I deeply appreciate them and recommend them to others also. They have helped shape my view of CBT into something far more empathetic and human. I would very much like to hear about how you prefer to treat patients suffering OCD with moral/religious scrupulosity. I understand that exposure with response prevention is considered the standard treatment, but I don't understand how this works directly with fears about things that are unethical or immoral. For example, a deeply law-abiding person who is afraid of accidentally breaking the law ("was I speeding? I need to check if that was a police camera! what if I was doing something illegal and I didn't realise it?") or a very kind person who goes out of their way not to kill anything due to fear of consequences in the afterlife ("did I just step on an ant? I'd better check the soles of my shoes in case! I don't want to wash my hands in case it kills skin mites!") And would it change anything in your approach if the patient was someone who had had negative experiences with the law through no fault of their own (ie validating their fear)? Or who had a sincere belief that they should pray to be forgiven or purified for their perceived "sins" (a coping behavior which isn't negative in itself)? How do you even go about creating willingness in the patient to see these behaviors as problematic? It seems like it is much easier to treat for a fear of cats - it's easy to make an exposure ladder to the actual fear, it's ethical and safe to expose the patient, and the experience can ultimately be very positive - which is quite reinforcing. But what do you do when the patient is suffering from a good quality taken too far (obeying the law, refraining from killing etc.)? Obviously you can't invite them to break the law or kill things because that's not moral or ethical, so I'm assuming you can only ask them to sit with the discomfort of uncertainty? Is that just as good as working with the direct object of fear itself? Or have I missed something? I'd love it if you could talk about scrupulosity sometime! Thank you very much again. Kind regards Robyn Hi Robyn, If you like, I will include in an ask david. The short answer is one that I give every week on the podcasts—I don’t throw techniques at folks based on a diagnosis or problem. As often as I say it, people don’t seem to get it, and this is the biggest problem in our field—trying to figure out how to “help” or rescue our patients. Of course, cognitive flooding might be one of 15 or 20 methods I might use, and there are tons of others, but first one has to find out what, if anything, the patient wants, and then deal skillfully with Outcome and Process Resistance. This MUST come before trying any methods. More on this when Rhonda and I discuss your excellent question. d Matthew May MD practices in Menlo Park, California. He is on the adjunct faculty in the department of psychiatry at Stanford and practices in Menlo Park, California. Although most psychiatrists rely primarily on medications, Matt tells me that the majority of his depressed and anxious patients recover rapidly without medications as a result of his proficiency with TEAM-CBT. He is also a superb teacher and has a weekly online supervision group for mental health professionals interested in learning and refining TEAM therapy skills. You can contact him via his website. Next week, Matt will join us again in a fascinating podcast on the paradoxical Nature of TEAM-CBT! Don’t miss it! Rhonda and David

Professor Yehuda’s TEAM-CBT Israeli Initiative! Today’s podcast is the latest in a series Rhonda has created featuring people who are doing interesting and creative things with TEAM-CBT. In today’s episode, we feature Yehuda Bar-Shalom, D.H.L, TEAM CBT level 4 trainer and therapist, who will teach us all about the use of TEAM in the school system. Yehuda, who is an associate professor appointed by the Council of higher education in Israel, is the first person we know to teach TEAM to school counselors in a practical way. (We also refer you to our podcast episode 152 where we interviewed Amy Spector, MFT, who is a TEAM therapist providing TEAM therapy to “at-risk” teen-agers at a high school in the San Francisco Bay Area.) Yehuda is an educator, psychotherapist and researcher. He has served as president of Hebraica University in Mexico City, the only Jewish University in Latin America which is open to students of all religious faiths. When he became the president of Hebraica University, he adapted the psychology and wellbeing department so that it became a training program for TEAM therapists. When he returned to Israel in 2020, Yehuda’s former student Victoria Chicurel, and several others, continued the Mexico TEAM training program. Yehuda has authored seven books and almost 70 academic articles on education and society, with a focus on Jewish education, social entrepreneurship and consulting in psycho-educational settings, mostly from a CBT perspective. He has been the Vice President of the David Yellin College in Jerusalem, and the Dean of Education at the Ono Academic College. His book, Educating Israel: Educational Entrepreneurship in Israel’s Multicultural Society was published in 2006. Yehuda is married to Amira Bar Shalom, and has three children. Yehuda, who in his professional life is both a therapist, educator, and researcher, earned his doctorate in education in 1997, conducting research on applying Bion’s theory in group work with adolescents.  When he was teaching school counselors, he realized he wanted to become a counselor, so, 20 years after earning his research doctorate, he went back to school and earned a Master’s degree in school counseling, and later another Master degree in the treatment of addictions. He also studied for a two-year certificate in cognitive behavioral therapy at the Psagot Institute, where he met Maor Katz, MD, Director of the Feeling Good Institute, and one of the Psagot instructors who taught TEAM therapy. Yehuda also learned about TEAM therapy by listening to the Feeling Good Podcasts. When he started listening, he thought TEAM therapy was “like a miracle.” Yehuda then attended several of David’s TEAM training workshops, as well as on-line trainings sponsored by the Feeling Good Institute (FGI). He has also studied one-on-one with Level 5 TEAM therapist, Daniel Minte. Yehuda currently teaches at a master’s level training program for school counselors at the Ramat Gan College in Israel. He is committed to teaching TEAM to school counselors for many reasons. One is that using TEAM provides school counselors with an immediate way to create a fast connection to students. In addition, TEAM can more quickly help students who are struggling with their moods, behaviors, relationships, or habits and addictions. Yehuda emphasizes the importance of T = Testing for the school counselors, and teaches them how it helps create empathy. For example, the school counselor might say this to a new student, “Oh, I see your score on anger is such and such. Tell me about that.” Yehuda explained that school counselors are like primary care physicians. They have the immediate pulse on the student’s needs and feelings. He is training the school counselors to speak with their students using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. He also shows the counselors how to teach the Five Secrets, so their students can use this tool in their lives. He gave an example of how a school counselor might use the Disarming Technique when interacting with a child who feels angry and wants to escape. The counselor might say, “Wow, I can see that you’re feeling really angry about being sent to me for counseling and that you want to escape! I want to escape, too!” Then the child feels understood and opens up. Yehuda is also teaching the school counselors how to identify their own distorted negative thoughts, and how to positively reframe and challenge them. Once the counselors learn these skills for themselves, they can teach them to their students so that the students can learn to challenge their own distorted thoughts. The school counselors are also learning the use of paradox, so prominent in TEAM therapy, in order to help them understand their students’ motivations about why they feel and act the way they do, and how their understanding of their students’ motivations can lead to the change. The school counselors Yehuda trains are often quite skeptical and don’t believe him or David, which is understandable. He encourages them to maintain their skepticism but do an experiment and try these tools so they can see what happens. They are often pleasantly surprised by the results. Yehuda describes the counselors he trains as humble, down-to-earth, and hungry to master new techniques that can boost their effectiveness when working with troubled students. If you want to learn more about Yehuda’s work, visit his website at: https://sites.google.com/view/yehudabarshalom Rhonda and David

Live Work with Elizabeth, Part 2 (of 2) “I’m tired of being terrified. I want to be at peace!” Last week, we brought you Part 1 of a session with a women who's been struggling with anxiety and the fear of poverty every since she was 13 years old. that included T = Testing and E = Empathy, including an empathy error that David and Jill corrected. Today, we bring you the conclusion of that amazing session! After the empathy correction, Elizabeth suddenly said: “I don’t talk about this stuff very much as an adult. I’m feeling overwhelmed in a good way right now. A sense of peace is opening up.” You can review the partially completed Daily Mood Log Elizabeth gave us at the start of the sess if you click here. Her goal for the session was to get some relief from the constant pressure she put herself under to function and to keep her practice full. A = Assessment of Resistance Together, we did Positive Reframing with her negative thoughts and feelings, asking: What does this thought or feeling show about you and your core values that’s positive and awesome? What are some benefits, or advantages, of this thought or feeling? Together, we came up with this list of the positives. They keep me moving. They are very familiar. They show I’ve got a good work ethic. They show I’m a responsible human being. They show I care deeply about my family and my business. They show I’m determined to change the family history of failure and deprivation. The anxiety protects me from failure. It has kept me alive. It has paid the bills. Keeps me independent and self-supportive. Shows I’m strong and confident. Shows my love for my daughter. You can see Elizabeth’s Daily Mood Log with her goals for each negative feeling cluster if you click here. M = Methods Next we helped Elizabeth challenge her negative thoughts using Identify the Distortions, Explain the Distortions, and Externalization of Voices, starting with her seventh Negative Thought, “I need the pressure to function,” which she initially believed 100%. She identified the following cognitive distortions in this thought: All-or-Nothing Thinking, Jumping to Conclusions (Fortune Telling), Emotional Reasoning, and Magnification / Minimization. She decided to challenge the Negative Thought with this Positive Thought: I do not need pressure to function. I have functioned many times without pressure just fine. She believed this thought 100%, and this reduced her belief in the Negative Thought to 10%. Then we did Externalization of Voices with this thought and many others. Then David suggested Cognitive Flooding. The idea is to flood yourself with anxiety by imagining whatever it is that terrifies you the most. Every minute or two you record the time, your anxiety (0 to 100), and any fantasies you are having. The goal is to make yourself as anxious as possible for as long as possible. Over time, your anxiety falls, and eventually disappears. This can be frightening, and requires some courage on the part of the therapist and patient, but it can be extremely helpful and often works rapidly. Cognitive Flooding Flow Sheet   Time Anxiety Fantasy Comment 6:34 100 I am looking at my appointment schedule, which is only half full, and the phone is not ringing with new patients   6:35 100 Only two patients are scheduled, no one is calling to inquire about therapy   6:36 110 My throat is getting tight, and I’m telling myself that other clinicians in our practice rely on me, and I’m letting them down.   6:37 Eliz can fill in anxiety ratings, perhaps I’m asking myself, “What will we do? What’s going to happen?”   6:38 Eliz can fill in anxiety ratings, perhaps My schedule is drying up. My associates don’t have any patients. Jill begins with the What-If Technique. What’s the worst that could happen? 6:39 Eliz can fill in anxiety ratings, perhaps The economy is crashing. I have to let go of my associates. This is devastating. And then what? What’s the worst that could happen? 6:40 Eliz can fill in anxiety ratings, perhaps I’m standing in my office by myself. Everyone is gone. I’m alone. No one is calling for training or treatment. And then what? What’s the worst that could happen? 6:42 50 I have to keep working alone in a dark office until I’m 80 years old. And then what? What’s the worst that could happen? 6:43 30 Now I’m 85 years old, still trying to make things worse. My husband has a heart attack and Parkinson’s Disease. Now I have to treat people for free.   At this point something unexpected happened. Elizabeth burst into tears, and said: “I’m angry because this is what I’ve always wanted to do. . . I don’t want to have to charge people for therapy. I just want to treat people for free. She said the flooding was powerful, and melted the conflict she’d been experiencing: “I want to embrace therapy, and do something for free. I love doing therapy. And my biggest fear is that I cannot do that!” David suggested doing the cognitive flooding whenever she felt a pang of anxiety about her practice. You can see Elizabeth's end-of-session Daily Mood Log if you click here. Jill suggested a homework assignment for Elizabeth after the session: You can develop a cognitive flooding script with the What-If Technique. Record it on your phone, and listen to it daily until you get bored and your anxiety no longer flares up. Here is Elizabeth’s follow-up report: I did two rewrites on the script and listen to it daily for about two weeks. The in vivo exposure was to take my schedule offline for at least two weeks and stop trying to keep it full.  I took my schedule offline until Saturday, March 13th thru Tuesday, April 6th.  I have not scheduled anyone new or additional clients during this time.  And clients have not had access to my online schedule during this time. I have gone through varying degrees of anxiety and woke up once in the wee hours of the morning to worry, but overall, there has been a significant decline in my anxiety, worry and checking to see if my schedule is full. This exposure has been very powerful! Jill added this teaching point about Cognitive Flooding: You have the patient imagine the worst thing that could possibly happen and tell it in the narrative form, so it sounds like the What-If Technique playing out...For example, someone with OCD and fears of contamination can tell the story of the worst thing that could happen... "and then I would be dirty, and then I would contaminate my child, and she would get sick, and end up in the hospital, and . . . " etc. At the same time, you also focus on the patient's negative thoughts and feelings and take anxiety ratings every minute or so. The M = Methods illustrated in the podcast include: What’s my grade? What-If Technique Downward Arrow Technique. Daily Mood Log Positive Reframing Identify the Distortions Examine the Evidence Externalization of Voices Cognitive Flooding (combined with What-If Technique) In vivo exposure and response prevention (Jill’s homework assignment for Elizabeth) After each Tuesday group, we get quantitative and qualitative feedback from the members about the quality of the teaching. You can see some of the teaching feedback for the session if you click here. Rhonda and I, and all the members of our Stanford Tuesday training group, and all of our thousands of podcast fans, want to thank you, Elizabeth and give you a great virtual hug! Rhonda and David Follow-Up I just received this lovely note from Elizabeth to report on what has happened since her session in the Tuesday group. Hello Group, Last week April 7th, my schedule went back online after being offline for three weeks.  The process was seamless, my practice did not fall apart.  The other clinician's schedule did not become empty and we did not get a bad reputation.   I no longer fear I will be 80 years old, desperate with a handful of clients and supporting my husband who has a terminal illness.  Or my daughter having to financially support us both.  Even as I write this I am smiling and laughing a bit.  I do not feel driven by the fear of financial ruin nor have I compulsively checked my schedule making sure it is full.  I have more brain space for other things. I believe I have the peace I requested in my miracle cure.  Of course, I will relapse, I already have a couple of times and I have quickly recentered. A deep heartfelt Thanks to David, Jill, and all of you who participated with feedback or witnessed my personal work. My Warmest Regards, Elizabeth

“I’m tired of being terrified. I want to be at peace!” Live Work with Elizabeth, Part 1 (of 2) This podcast features Elizabeth Dandenell, LMFT, who runs a successful treatment clinic in Alameda, California for anxiety disorders, The East Bay Center for Anxiety Relief (www.eastbayanxiety.com.). She is a certified Level 4 TEAM therapist and trainer, and also helps teach mental health professionals at our Tuesday psychotherapy training group at Stanford. We are deeply indebted to Elizabeth for allowing us to publish the very personal, dramatic and inspiring work she did that evening. I also want to thank Jill Levitt, PhD, who was my co-therapist in the work with Elizabeth. Jill practices at the Feeling Good Institute in Mt. View, California (link)  where she is Director of Clinical Training, and teaches with me at Stanford. Like most mental health professionals, Elizabeth occasionally struggles with feelings of anxiety, stress, and self-doubt, and wanted to do some personal work in a recent Stanford Tuesday group. The personal work takes courage, but is crucial to the training and personal growth of all therapists. She was hoping for help with fears that have haunted her since her father died when she was just 13 years old. She explains: I started working when I was 13 years old and that is when the pressure to make money began because my father was an unsuccessful businessman. We were all just scraping by. I started working because my father was unable to pay basic bills at times like phone and electric.  Or our car didn't always run. He was not good at running his own business and money flow was very inconsistent. I discovered when I started working that I could have some control with financial stability if I had my own money and would help out paying the phone bill occasionally. This is when the anxiety of not having enough to survive kicked in and developed the" pressure" I discussed in the podcast and in my daily mood log.. This pressure to survive has has fueled my anxiety for years. My father died from Parkinson’s Disease in a nursing home when he was 77. He wa on Medicaid because he had lost everything. I was 50 when he died. You will hear many techniques that Jill and I used during the session, including Cognitive Flooding. This is, to the best of my knowledge, one of the first times that we have captured this type of Exposure live on a Feeling Good Podcast. Combining Cognitive Flooding with the What-If Technique (pioneered by Dr. Albert Ellis) makes the confrontation with your deepest fears especially powerful.  Listening to that portion of the session will be illuminating for many therapists and patients alike, especially if you are not familiar with, or confident in, the use of exposure  in the treatment of anxiety. Elizabeth’s anxiety was triggered by an exercise we did called “No Practice” in one of the David and Jill workshops for mental health professionals. Essentially, you practice saying “no” to someone who is pressuring you and making unreasonable demands on you. But in Elizabeth’s case, and perhaps for you, too, those demands are internally generated. If you click here, you can see the partially completed Daily Mood Log that Elizabeth brought to the session. T = Testing We began our session by reviewing Elizabeth’s scores pre-session scores on the Brief Mood Survey. The scores indicated only mild anxiety and minimal anger, but these scores probably do not reflect the intensity of the anxiety and terror she often feels. We then went on to: E = Empathy Elizabeth said, “That workshop exercise (“No Practice”) got me thinking about an unresolved issue I’ve been struggling with my entire life.” She explained that I’m doing too much in my life. I complain and then I take too much on and get overwhelmed. I fill my plate too much, and I tell myself that my patients need me, so I’m always taking on new patients to keep my schedule full . . . At times I get really anxious and don’t feel competent or confident. Who I am today is due to constant pushing, pushing, pushing, and never letting up. She explained that the problem started when she was 13: We didn’t have much money, and my father died penniless, in poverty in a skilled nursing facility. I’m always pushing for fear of meeting the same fate, telling myself that if I slow down I might not have enough money for my daughter’s college education, or for our retirement. I work so hard I was once even treated for adrenal fatigue. But my husband and I are not in any financial danger now, and things are fine, and I’d love to have time for more walks, for more meditation. But I’m terrified of slowing down. We did the What-If Technique to explore Elizabeth’s fear of slowing down. What was at the root of her fears? David: What would happen if you slowed down? What are you the most afraid of? Elizabeth: We might not have enough for my daughter’s college and for our retirement. David: And then what? Elizabeth: Our daughter would have to take out student loans. David: And if you did not have enough for your retirement, and your daughter had to take out student loans, what then? What are you the most afraid of? Elizabeth: My father’s life collapsed at the end, and he ended up in a skilled nursing facility with nothing. (tears) Jill pointed out a belief at the root of Elizabeth’s fears. “If I slow down, we won’t have enough money for survival. This fear has been haunting and driving me since I was 13.” Elizabeth said it felt unjust, and that she was angry that she could not take a break without feeling a sense of panic. She said, “it’s all about family values. I wish the work ethic hadn’t been driven into me so hard.” She said she’s struggled with constant worries about money, and wondering whether she can pay her bills ever since she was 13. She said, “It’s not about having fancy things—that doesn’t interest me. It’s all about survival.” Although Elizabeth and her husband are doing really well, and her treatment center is doing really well, she constantly worries, keeps her schedule more than full, and cannot say no to a new patient. She gives herself the message that she should be working longer hours, and that she can work overtime to make room for every new patient. She said, “For years I’ve wanted not to be so overwhelmed, and I’m still stuck with so much on my plate. . . ‘I’m tired of being terrified and want to be at peace. I want to learn to let go of this constant fear, but I don’t know if I can let it go. I want to feel differently, and not just do differently. “I want to be at peace with my business. I want the freedom to say yes or no. I want the freedom of choice. “If I have a day off, I don’t know what to do. It feels weird. My greatest fear is ending up in a nursing home on Medicaid, like my father.” I decided to explore this fear once again, using the Downward Arrow Technique. David: And then what would happen? What would that mean to you? Elizabeth: My daughter would see me and realize she would have to support herself. David: And then what? What would that mean to you? Elizabeth: That would mean I was worthless. (tears) That would mean I was not enough. And then I’d be rejected. Now I’m feeling so ashamed! (more tears) At this point, we summarized what Elizabeth and been saying and feeling, and asked her to grade us on our empathy so far. Would she give us an A, a B, a C, a D, or what? This “What’s My Grade” technique is powerful and helpful, but a bit intimidating for the clinician. Elizabeth said she’d give us an A- or B+. That’s not bad, but it is really a failing grade, because we’re aiming for an A. When this happens you can ask, “What am I missing?” Elizabeth explained that we’d done a great job on the thought and feeling empathy, but she did not feel as much warmth and acceptance as she was hoping for because she was feeling very ashamed about her story Jill reminded us of the need to include “I Feel” Statements to our empathy (my bad), and then we shared our feelings of sadness and admiration for Elizabeth, and quickly got an A. As a teaching point, your perceptions of how empathic you are, if you are a therapist, will not be accurate. That’s why the “What’s My Grade” technique can be so valuable. When you fall short, the patient will tell you why, and can easily make a correction and greatly enhance the therapeutic relationship. Superb empathy is desirable, and necessary if you want to do top-notch clinical work, but it won’t cure much of anything. So we’ll need something more! Next week you will hear the amazing last half of the session, starting with A = Assessment of Resistance and then going on to M = Methods, and end of session T = Testing. In next week's podcast, you'll hear the final half of Elizabeth's session and, if you like, you can also listen to some of the Q and A from the participant's in the Tuesday group who watched the session live. Rhonda and David

239: Ten Days to Self-Esteem, Featuring Dawn O’Meally Dawn O’Meally is a licensed mental health professional from Westminster, Maryland who purchased my book, Ten Days to Self-Esteem workbook (link) as well as the Ten Days to Self-Esteem Leader’s Manual for at a workshop she attended in 2002. This is a 10-class self-esteem training program for patients and the general public. The groups can be led by a therapist or lay person. This book was the basis of a large and successful treatment program at the hospital where I practiced in Philadelphia. Dawn described reading the books and telling herself, “I can do this!” Since that time, she has conducted roughly four Ten Days groups per year. The improvement in her patients has been phenomenal, due, in large part, to her spark, creativity, and gift for teaching and inspiring individuals struggling with depression, anxiety, and low self-esteem. In the podcasts she takes us through the first seven steps of the ten-step program, and reads testimonials from patients like Julie who wrote: “I had many WOW moments. This book is my bible!” If you are interested in setting up a similar program in your area, feel free to contact Dawn at dao@tcc4change.com. I think it is fair to say that today’s podcast is electrifying, and filled with the same excitement that Dawn brings to her patients! Dawn describes herself as a little like Miss Frizzle with her Magic Schoolbus. I’m not personally familiar with Miss Frizzle but it does sound like fun, exciting, and creative, three strong characteristics of Dawn. She describes how she makes patients accountable, requiring a $50 deposit they can earn back by coming to groups on time and doing their homework (HW). As a group, they also do a Cost-Benefit Analysis (CBA) on the Advantages and Disadvantages of doing the HW, and review the list of really GOOD reasons for NOT doing the HW in the book, with each member ticking off the ones that resonate with their own thinking. She said some of the most popular ones are: I’m afraid of what might happen if I DO change. I believe that others are to blame for my problems, so why should I have to change? I don’t trust Dr. Burns! I’m not convinced the exercises in this book will really make a difference in my life. Dawn described several of the “steps” in the group, including the exciting steps on “You FEEL the Way You THINK” and “You can CHANGE the Way You Feel.” She said that members found the lesson on healthy vs unhealthy negative feelings illuminating, and the lesson on the Acceptance Paradox was mind-blowing. The group trains participants in 15 techniques for crushing distorted thoughts, and some of the popular ones include the CBA, Examine the Evidence, the Double Standard Technique, and the Acceptance Paradox. She described the feared and famous “Mirror Method,” where patients pass a mirror around the group and each one has to look into it and verbalize his or her negative thoughts, like “I’m a failure,” and “I’m the worst mother on the planet.” Then they have to talk back to that thought, using the second person, “You,” as they talk to themselves in a more realistic and compassionate manner. She also does the T = Testing at each group session, tracking changes in depression, anxiety, and relationship satisfaction and sees significant reductions in scores on the mood tests by the end of the program. She also gives each participant a “report card” at the end of the program so they can see how much they progressed. Participants FEEL so much better! At the start of the group she tells participants, “If you attend the groups and do the exercises in the book, you WILL change. This material can’t not have a huge impact on your life.” She said that at the end of the ten sessions, the participants see that this really did happen. She emphasized that she greatly prefers treating people in groups, but calls them “classes” due to the stigma of “group therapy.” I, David, strongly agree, as this has been my experience as well. With a skillful group leader, and great material, magic becomes possible! Dawn has done much more, creating follow-up groups for interested patients, as well as a new program based on my new book, Feeling Great (link), so we hope to have an encore appearance from this bubbly and brilliant woman! Rhonda and David

238: Feeling Great Book Club Featuring Drs. Sharon Batista and Robert Schacter In today's podcast, Drs. Sharon Batista and Robert Schacter describe their visionary 16-week Feeling Great Book Club for mental health professionals that we mentioned in a podcast several months ago. The group was a great success, and I am super thankful to them for creating it! Sharon described how the group came into being. She’d been looking forward to Feeling Great and ordered the hardbound and the audio version as well. But she found, like so many mental health professionals, that it is difficult to keep up with career and family, and sent out a post to colleagues suggesting a possible book group to make the process of learning easier. Bob wrote back and said, “What a brilliant idea! Let’s do it!” Sharon and Bob reported that the more than 40 therapists signed up for the Book Club, which consisted of 90-minute sessions every other week. The participants ranged in experience from Level 1 to Level 4 certification in TEAM-CBT. Sharon explained that “People liked learning the parts of TEAM piece by piece. Being assigned to read 1 chapter per week gave them enough time to read and digest the material in small chunks. And people had a myriad of questions at every group.” Sharon and Bob graciously said that “a highlight for the group was the time David attended and generously gave us over two hours for Q and A.” For me (David) it was also a peak experience. Due, in part, to my narcissism, I just love answering questions, and they asked tons of really good ones! The other phenomenon they described was that “we became a group. It was comforting to see each other every two weeks with a common purpose and sense of community. People felt the group was relaxed and said they gained more understanding than from the training groups they’d been in. People were relieved to discover that they weren’t the only ones who thought TEAM-CBT was very complex.” Sharon added; “As therapists, we face lots of challenges and sometimes make mistakes. The participants got a lot of support and engaged in a process that involved learning and personal growth.” The questions from book club members began with clarifying the descriptions of the ten Cognitive Distortions. People asked questions like these: What is the difference between Overgeneralization and Mental Filtering? Why is a Should Statement a cognitive distortion? Why do some methods work better than others for various distortions? How do we know which ones to use? What is Unconscious Resistance? Why does the therapist need to become the voice of that resistance? What do you do when nothing seems to be working? Can you explain how the Magic Button leads to the “Switch” that makes someone decide to get better. How do you show empathy to someone who is suicidal? Can you explain the Death of the Ego? (This was a big question) When you are dealing with the spiritual side, how do you take the path of acceptance? What is the path of acceptance? What is the difference between a low-level and high-level solution? How can you be happy if the negative thoughts are true? How can you do TEAM-CBT when only 50-minute sessions are possible? Tell us what Enlightenment is! A major question was: Why do some people seem to not want to get better? How do you figure out what the resistance is, and how do you work through it? We shot the breeze about some of these questions in today’s podcast. If you would like to start your own Feeling Great Book Club for therapists or for lay people, and need more information, feel free to contact Sharon or Bob. Sharon M. Batista, M.D., FAPA, FACLP, FAMWA Medical Director, Balanced Psychiatry of New York  (212) 869-0515 drbatista@balancedpsychiatry.com Rhonda and I want to thank both of them and send them a big virtual hug!

Podcast 237: The Gentle Ultimatum: Can We Make Our Patients Accountable? April 12, 2021 At the top of the podcast, Rhonda reads several beautiful and thoughtful comments from listeners like you. One was an enthusiastic listener who found us on YouTube and wondered why we don’t have vastly larger audiences, since the quality of what we offer is not only free, but it beats out all the other “self-help gurus” by a large margin. Thanks for that. We are not experts in market and could use all the help we can get. So if you can spread the word for us, we’d appreciate it! David announced that his next workshop with Dr. jill Levitt will be on May 16, 2021, featuring David and Dr. Jill Levitt working with two audience volunteers who are struggling with depression and anxiety. Link to Registration Information It should be dramatic, inspiring, and profoundly educational, so you can see how TEAM-CBT really works in a live and spontaneous setting with no role-playing. This will be the real thing! One of the unique features of TEAM Therapy is the Gentle Ultimatum. At the beginning of therapy, we tell patients what will be required of them, and how the therapy works, if we accept them as patients. That way, they can make an informed decision about whether or not they want to work with us. This table illustrates what they’ll be asked to do. Problem What the “Gentle Ultimatum” involves Rationale Depression Psychotherapy homework David’s published research indicates that psychotherapy compliance has massive causal effects on recovery from depression. Anxiety Exposure Extensive research shows that Exposure is effective in the treatment of all forms of anxiety. Clinical experience indicates that full recovery from depression is difficult, if not impossible, without exposure. A Relationship Problem Giving up blame and focusing on your own role in the problem Research and clinical experience indicate that blame is probably the main cause of troubled relationships.   In the podcast, David and Rhonda discuss the rationale for the Gentle Ultimatum, as well as how to do it skillfully, and when. David describes his own reluctance to make patients accountable during the first seven or eight years of his practice, and what happened to change his mind, and how that led to the emergence of TEAM-CBT. David also describes the correct and incorrect way of presenting this to patients at the initial evaluation in a kindly, collaborative way. This requires therapist integrity, skill, and compassion. You cannot simply issue a crude “my way or the highway” demand. David also describes the Concept of Self-Help Memo that he created and began sending to patients prior to their first visit. The memo explains the rationale for requiring psychotherapy homework, briefly describes the ten most common forms of homework, and asks patients if they are willing to do homework if accepted into the clinical. The memo also asks how many days per week they’ll agree to, how many minutes per day, and how many weeks she or he will keep it up. The memo concludes with a list of “35 GOOD Reasons NOT to do Psychotherapy Homework,” and patients indicate how strongly they agree with each one. David illustrates how he discusses the memo, and the topic of homework, with new patients. David compares the Gentle Ultimatum with what happens when you go to the doctor with a broken leg. He or she might say you have to get an X-ray, and then we’ll give you a cast. If they patient protests and says that she or he is against X-rays and casts, and wants to be treated with “talk therapy,” the doctor would politely decline and explain that s/he is using a medical model of treatment, and that “talk therapy” is not offered for broken limbs. David and Rhonda explore the fairly intense resistance of many, and perhaps most therapists to making patients accountable. Rhonda describes her own inner fight about this, and how she had to terminate a patient recently because s/he refused to do homework, and opted for pure “talk therapy” from another therapist instead. The table above indicates that if the patient is struggling with anxiety, Exposure is the focus of the Gentle Ultimatum. If the patient wants effective treatment, Exposure will be required, and not an option. If, in contrast, you want help with a relationship problem, like a troubled marriage, you will have to agree to stop blaming the other person, and focus on pinpointing your own role in the problem, which can be immensely painful and humiliating. But it’s also liberating, because when you change yourself, instead of blaming the other person, you can transform trouble relationships into loving ones. Rhonda points out a potential conflict of interest with TEAM-CBT and the Gentle Ultimatum. It can lead to such rapid recovery that therapists need a large flow of patients. David mentions that one of the therapists in Rhonda’s FeelingGreatTherapyCenter.com, Sunny Choi, has this exact problem. His patients are getting better so fast he can’t keep his practice full. David urges potential patients to contact him, if interested, since Sunny is not only remarkably skillful, but he has a big heart and low fees, with a sliding fee scale, too. Thanks for listening today! Rhonda and David

Upcoming Workshops The Cognitive Distortion Starter Kit With David Burns, MD A One-Day Workshop on May 5, 2021 Click here for more information including registration! 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM West Coast Time: 7 CE Credits   Bringing TEAM-CBT to Life in Real Time Two Live Therapy Demonstrations with Drs. David Burns and Jill Levitt REGISTRATION CLOSES AT 5:30 PM PACIFIC TIME ON SATURDAY 5/15/21. NO EXCEPTIONS. Live Online Workshop with David Burns, MD and Jill Levitt, Ph.D. Click here for more information including registration! May 16, 2021 | 7 CE hours. $135 8:30 AM to 4:30 PM West Coast Time   Binoy asks: How does one know that a thought is a good one or a bad one? Or put in another way, how do I know if my fortune telling thought is really a fortune telling one? What is the basis? Binoy also asks: Is there something called “objective truth” that we can all agree on? Kristina asks: I have been labeled codependent in therapy. Is it a true label? . . . Do you believe in highly sensitive or empathetic people that can feel others energy? Fabrice asks: What do you think about this definition of the “self?” Don asks: Is TEAM as effective as you say? Binoy asks: I live in an Arab country and some of the things on your list of Shame-Attacking Exercises could get me arrested. Is there a better way to overcoming anxiety? * * * Binoy asks: Hi David, I just listened to podcast 079: “What's the Secret of a "Meaningful" Life? Live Therapy with Daisy." One of the questions that came across my mind is, how does one know if a negative thought is a good one or a bad one? Or put in another way, how do I know if my fortune telling thought is really a fortune telling distortion? What is the basis? Hi Binoy, thanks! Excellent question I might address on a future Ask David podcast. However, I would need you to give me a specific example of a thought you want help with. Specifics typically lead to illumination, whereas abstract thoughts sometimes lead to endless pontification. Binoy also asks: “Hi David, I did listen to the podcast #20 on “The Truth About Antidepressants.” I wish everyone agreed that there is something called objective truth. This is a question about truth or the existence of objective truth. Is the popular ideology that there is nothing called objective truth (everything is relative) correct? How can we talk about truth in a way that will help us be on the same page? So, I hope to hear from you again! Hi Binoy, this is also an abstract question, best answered through specific examples. For example, I can explain the concept of controlled outcome studies to test a drug against placebo, but even there you can find lots of ways to challenge any scientific study. We can also talk about distorted negative thoughts that trigger negative feelings like depression and anxiety. These thoughts are not really true. but we always focus on one specific thought at a time, and only from someone asking for help. I do not pontificate about “truth” in some abstract sense! All the best, david * * * Kristina asks: I have been labeled as codependent in therapy. Is it a true label? Hi Dr. Burns, Thank you so much for all your services and help that you offer Dr. Burns. It has been life changing and I’m just starting to help myself out of this anxiety and depression. I wanted to ask how you feel about the terms, codependency and boundaries. I have been labeled codependent in therapy and is it a true label? Do you believe in highly sensitive or empathetic people who can feel others’ energy? Thanks again for all you do! Thank you, Kristina   Hi Kristina, I had to look up the term. According to dictionary.com, someone who is codependent “is in a relationship in which one person is physically or psychologically addicted, as to alcohol or gambling, and the other person is psychologically dependent on the first in an unhealthy way.” David and Rhonda can mention: the “codependency” and compulsion to “help” or “rescue” that often gets therapists into trouble with patients. This is a kind of addiction that therapists have, and is the main cause of therapeutic failure. that I work with specifics more than labels. For example, if a patient wanted help with “codependency,” I would ask him or her to describe a specific time on a specific day when this seemed to be a problem. Then I’d figure out what was going on, and find out if it was an individual mood problem or a relationship problem. After empathizing, I would find out what, if anything, the patient wanted help with, and then I’d bring the resistance to change to conscious awareness. My research on empathy indicates that even therapists are not accurate in sensing how their patients feel. The same is true, I believe, of the general public. People vastly overestimate their capacities to understand how others are thinking and feeling, and this is super easy to demonstrate with simple experiments using rudimentary statistical analyses. David * * * Fabrice asks. What do you think about this definition of the “self?” Hi David & Rhonda, Start with this: When I refer to my "self," I am speaking of the sum of my experiences and the trails they have left in my mind, my body, and my life circumstances, as well as the material things that are associated with me, beginning with my body, symbolized by the name printed on my ID card. This "self" has certain characteristics, including past actions, habits, patterns, qualities, flaws, etc. So, the first question is, how can you say that this "self" does not refer to anything? I know very well who I am, and I am distinct from any other "self" that presents him/herself to me. The second question is, based on the previous definition, why can't I pass judgment on the different attributes of that "self"? If that self has never been able to solve a linear equation, can't I call it "bad at math?” If that self almost always turns in its assignments after the deadline, can't I call it "slow" or "procrastinating?” And so on. I agree that passing negative judgment on a self can lead to that self having some unpleasant emotions, but that doesn't mean that those judgments are meaningless. I suspect that some listeners were turning over thoughts like these in their minds. I hope that gives you something to sink your teeth into. I'll try to be more specific about future episodes. Take care, Fabrice Nye Hi Fabrice, Thanks! When I get time to redo the deleted chapter on the “self” from Feeling Great, I can perhaps include these questions, although I did pretty much cover them in several of the later chapters in Feeling Great on the impossibility of judging the “self,” as opposed to things we think, do, or say. My problem is that people don’t “get” or “grasp” what I’m trying to say. Below, you seem to think I believe the “self does not exist,” and you have some excellent attempts to define it and prove that it does exist. At least that’s my take on it. My position is radically different. To me, the statement “the self does not exist” and “the self does exist” have no meaning. The statement, “I don’t know if the self exists” also has no meaning to me. This is language that is “out of gear,” so to speak, as Wittgenstein might say. You can press on the accelerator all you want, but the car won’t move forward when it is not in gear. But most people, nearly everybody in fact, have tons of trouble grasping this. You probably “get it,” I don’t know! I am just referring to your email, where you say the self is such and such. Nouns do not always refer to “things” that could “exist” or “not exist.” Still, when I say this, it goes in one ear and out the other, I’m afraid! And that was why Wittgenstein was intensely lonely and frustrated, and often depressed, and perhaps why he never attempted to publish anything during his life. You can certainly say, “I’m not very good at math. In fact, I’m below average at math.” This means that your math skills are below average. Does it also mean that your “self’ is below average? Many of my skills and attributes are below average, but that does not upset me or threaten my feelings of self-esteem for two reasons: I don’t believe that my worthwhileness as a human being depends on anything. I don’t believe that “worthwhileness as a human being” has any meaning. I don’t believe the statement, “the self exists,” has any meaning. What would it be like if “the self” didn’t exist? What are we actually talking about? But if I judge my “self” to be “inferior” or “worthless” or “below average,” that type of self-critical thinking can cause a lot of emotional pain, and can, in extreme cases, even lead to suicide, thinking that “I am not good enough.” david I asked Fabrice if he wanted to comment on my response above, and if I should include it in the show notes. He gave a really cool answer: Hi David, Yes, you can absolutely include it. From your response here, you ought to make it clear that your point is that the language is not meaningful, therefore the word, "self," is not meaningful. But you may need to delve deeper into this. If you do that, you're going to end up at the same place the Buddha ended up when he discovered the ultimate emptiness of things. Of course, he didn't talk about "things," since that's meaningless too, just emptiness. Fabrice Nye By the way, you may enjoy Fabrice’s new podcast. Here’s the link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/peace-at-last/id1496573038 The following email might also help. Hi Rhonda, Here is the other Ask David with the remainders from our last one. If we use this one, let’s please be sure to include your through about your “self” as “a mom,” “a psychologist,” and so forth, and how I responded to it, as I thought that was really helpful. We can judge and talk about what we DO, and not what we ARE. We can use the word, “self,” in a variety of ways that are meaningful. For example, Behave yourself. This means stop behaving badly. Just act like yourself on the date. This means don’t try to impress your date. Instead, show an interest in him / her. Why you write, try to tune I on your true “self,” and stop acting so fake. This means you need to change your tone of voice when you write. Share more of your feelings and vulnerabilities. All these uses have specific meanings. They are not metaphysical or philosophical claims, just attempts to influence someone’s thinking, feelings, or behavior. “Self” is just a sound that comes out of your mouth. It is not an esoteric or metaphysical “thing” that could “exist” or “not exist.” Aristotle thought that nouns were descriptions of “things” that existed in some ideal alternative reality. For example, he thought that tables are just imperfect examples of some perfect essence of “tableness” that exists somewhere. This erroneous view of language gave rise to most of the problems in philosophy, as well as most of our emotional problems of feeling we have a “self” that isn’t important, or isn’t worthwhile, or isn’t good enough, and so forth. d * * * Don asks: Is TEAM as effective as you say? Hi Dr. Burns, I feel compelled to say, with the greatest respect and affection, that the very concept of successfully treating my lifelong battle with depression, anxiety, and ocd within a few hours seems, at face value, far too good to be true! Is it really possible? I've endured countless disappointments and treatment failures from many, many therapists, all of whom wasted months or even years of my time, essentially to no avail. Tell me again: Is short term treatment, as described, as potent as TEAM promises. It's just so hard to believe! DBs Comment: Don went on to describe chronic severe mood problems and recent intense feelings of anxiety due to medical problems in his family. Hi Don, Good questions. Here are some thoughts. Effectiveness depends on the skill of the therapist, and TEAM is challenging to learn. I’ve been at it for more than 40 years, and have used T = Testing at every session with every patient. This has been my greatest teacher—my patients. Some of my students have achieved high levels of skill, and they are the ones who have put in tremendous effort to learn. There are not yet many of them, sadly, and that’s why I’m working on an app. . . . So I can make these tools available to large numbers of people who are suffering. We will be starting a new beta test in a few weeks. It is in progress, and very labor-intensive to develop, but if it works, it will be fantastic. An inexpensive way to find out if TEAM is for you, and you have perhaps done this already, would be to read Feeling Great and do the written exercises while reading. Then you’ll find out if you like the new methods, and if they are helpful for you. I assume you’ve already read Feeling Good and done the exercises. Is that correct? The results I report are the results of my work with patients, using TEAM. I only report truthful things, and don’t fabricate results! I am analyzing a huge data base of thousands of TEAM therapists at the Feeling Good Institute, but it is a naturalistic study, and interpreting the results is challenging for a variety of reasons. The mean reduction in depression scores in a large number of severely depressed individuals in four or five sessions was 59%, which is excellent. It is little bit hard to interpret that result because when patients recover, they drop out of treatment, so the mean depression score in the data you analyze at any session is the mean of those who are still in treatment who have not yet recovered. Therefore, the analysis is potentially biased in a negative direction, if you see what I mean. My published research shows that psychotherapy homework is crucial to success. Some patients are strongly opposed to doing homework, and they are likely served better by therapists who do not believe in the value of psychotherapy homework. The rapid recovery I see is in the treatment of depression and anxiety. Relationship problems are much more challenging to treat due to the intense resistance people have to looking at their own role in a problem instead of blaming others. Habits and addictions can be slower and more challenging, too, since the temptations to give are so pervasive and powerful. Thanks! I hope this information in helpful for you. Here’s an afterthought. Sometimes when people ask me if this will really work, they are actually skeptical or even annoyed, and expressing resistance or a lack of enthusiasm for the treatment techniques I have created. I do not try to sell patients on anything, and feel strongly that people should find an approach they are enthusiastic about, even if it is radically different from the methods I have developed! I strongly applaud skepticism and critical thinking, but it is also true that trust and TEAMwork are vitally important dimensions of successful treatment. If a patient is putting up a wall and resisting, that must be dealt with first before there is any chance for success. The approach to resistance is radically different from answering questions as I am doing here. I hope that makes sense! Here’s the type of thing I’m saying, or trying to say. If you’ve been burned in the past, and had negative therapeutic experiences, it would make sense that you’d be reluctant to trust, or to hope, or to collaborate, for fear of being let down yet again. I would want to bring this issue to conscious awareness at the start of therapy with anyone who has strong feelings of skepticism, and anyone who is saying “prove it to me” when we start therapy. Almost all the patients I’ve treated have had months, years, or decades of failed therapy in the past. But that’s not so crucial. The crucial question is, can we work together with some trust and enthusiasm and teamwork? And are you willing to do what will be necessary for a positive outcome? This might include doing regular psychotherapy homework, being willing to use Exposure techniques for anxiety, like OCD, and so forth. Lots of people don’t want to do homework or use exposure, and they may have other objections to the treatment, which I honor. I don’t try to persuade or twist arms, since those approaches are doomed to failure. Not sure if this makes sense, or if I’ve expressed my thinking clearly. david * * * Binoy asks: I checked the list of shame attacking exercises you have suggested for social anxiety. I live in an Arab country. Some of the things on the list could get me arrested. Is there a better way to overcoming anxiety? Hi Binoy, Perhaps you can tell me what Shame Attacking Exercises would get you arrested! Since I’ve listed more than 100, perhaps you could choose ones that will not get you arrested! In addition, I never throw techniques at people based on a diagnosis or problem, but work systematically using T, E, A, and M. In addition, I use four treatment models, and more than 50 techniques, when I am treating any form of anxiety. There is a free anxiety class on my website. Check it out!  

235: Anger in Marriage Several months ago. a professional dancer named Brian emailed me with an Ask David question on how to deal with anger in marriage using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. I was pretty excited because anger in marriage is a problem nearly everyone can identify with, and something we all need some help with! Brian and his family Brian said that he and his wife, Michelle, have been married since 2009, and while he loves Michelle a great deal, their relationship runs hot and cold, with frequent angry clashes. I asked Brian for a specific example, including a partially filled out Relationship Journal (RJ), so I could get some details on what his wife said to him, and what, exactly, he said next, during one of their conflicts. Brian and his wife, Michelle The analysis of this exchange will provide us with a crystal clear example of the type of problem they are struggling with, along with the opportunity to pinpoint the specific errors Brian is making in responding to his wife’s criticisms. In the example he sent, she said that he wasn’t doing enough to help put the kids to bed one night, and he responded by saying nothing. He analyzed his response with the EAR technique from my book, Feeling Good Together. By ignoring her, it was obvious that failed on E = Empathy (he did not acknowledge how she felt), and A = Assertiveness (he did not share his feelings), and on R = Respect (he did not express any warmth, respect, or love for her.) He was able to see that this response will make the problem worse and force her to keep criticizing him. When he ignores her, she feels even more hurt, ignored, abandoned, and unloved. As a result, she’ll keep criticizing him since he hasn’t yet listened or “gotten it.” So although he feels like an innocent victim, he’s actually the secret creator of his own interpersonal reality. In other words, he forces her to do the very thing he’s complaining about. That’s the purpose of the Relationship Journal (RJ) —to help you see your own role in a conflict. It’s an amazing but pretty painful tool that’s potentially liberating. At my urging over the past several months, Brian worked really hard studying the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (LINK) and doing the written exercises in Feeling Good Together. After a rocky start, with some notable failures in his attempt to improve his interactions with his wife, he slowly began to “get it,” and their relationship began to improve a lot. Brian joins us today to describe his journey, and share his excitement about my first book, Feeling Good, as well as Feeling Good Together. I am really proud of what Brian has accomplished through commitment, practice, and hard work, as well as his courageous willingness to look at his own role in the problem. This is nearly always painful, and requires the “great death” of the “self,” or “ego.” During today’s podcast, we practiced with the “Intimacy Exercise.” This exercise can help you improve your skills with the Five Secrets. Here’s the way it works. To get things started, either Rhonda or David will play the role of Brian’s wife, and Brian will play the role of himself. We will criticize Brian in the way his wife sometimes criticizes him, and then he will respond, using the Five Secrets. For example, she recently said: “When I was on the phone with my best friend, you were rude and selfish, and making too much noise with the video you were creating.” Then he responded and we gave him a grade, and pointed out what he was doing right and what he was doing wrong that needed improvement. If you check your ego at the door, this can be a great, but challenging, way to learn! Brian gave himself a C on his response, which you’ll hear in the podcast, and Rhonda agreed. She also gave him a C. I gave him a B, as I thought he did some pretty cool things while making several errors. Here’s where he needed improvement. His use of the Disarming Technique needed upgrading. He didn’t strongly and directly endorse the truth in his wife’s criticism. For example, he might say something like this: “You’re right, I was being insensitive and selfish, and I’ve done that to you so often over the years.” His response would benefit from the inclusion of some “I Feel” Statements,” since it sounded a bit mechanical. For example, he might say, “I feel really sad and ashamed to hear you say that I was selfish and insensitive, because you’re absolutely right, and I love you so much.” There was no Stroking, and I included one way to do this in the “I Feel” response I just described. His Thought Empathy was good, but there was no Feeling Empathy. In other words, he did not mention how sad, hurt and angry his wife might be feeling. He did not finish with a sound use of Inquiry that would invite his wife to open up even more. For example, he could end by asking her to tell him more about how she feels when he’s being insensitive and selfish, and how hurt, angry, and lonely she might feel. Brian was non-defensive and open to this feedback. Then we did role reversals to give him the chance to try these new approaches and boost his grade. Here’s a comment he wanted me to share with you: Learning and implementing the 5 Secrets of Communication literally helped to save my marriage. The breakthrough came for me when I was really able to grab hold of Feeling Empathy, and really delve deep into understanding how my actions hurt my wife. This was one of the hardest challenges I've ever had in my life but the deeper I got into my wife's heart and mind, the more my anger dissipated and was replaced by empathy, warmth and love for my wife. I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination and in the podcast, both Rhonda and David went over some really cool role play to help sharpen my skills in the 5 Secrets. My hope is that by sharing my story it will help to provoke some helpful thoughts in the listener to help them continue to grow in their relationships. Brian Brian also said that he is a Christian, and loves Jesus, and that one thing he appreciates about the Five Secrets is that it is deeply connected to Christian teachings. For example, here’s a quotation from Matthew 7:3: “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?” I strongly agree with Brian’s take on this, and believe that the Five Secrets of Effective Communication can be viewed as both a psychological and a spiritual tool. I would add that the Five Secrets, as well as all of the techniques in TEAM-CBT, are compatible with most if not all religious traditions. I have often said that the moment of profound change—the moment you recover from anxiety or depression, for example—will nearly always have a spiritual meaning, but the details of your interpretation will depend on your religious or philosophical upbringing. I like to emphasize this because my father was a Lutheran minister, but he seemed pretty suspicious of psychiatrists, thinking that psychiatry and religion were inherently at odds with one another. Some deeply religious people have seen me, as some kind of pariah, or enemy of religion. When I lived in Philadelphia, I went to Lancaster, Pa, on ten consecutive Saturday mornings to teach CBT at a beautiful religious hospital there. I enjoyed teaching their staff a number of new techniques for treating depression. They told me that one of the local evangelists had a Saturday morning radio show, and that whenever I came to town, he would say, “the snake has returned to Lancaster” on his show! I think it is because I quoted the Buddha on something, and some of the more conservative folks didn’t take kindly to that comment! I guess they thought that the Buddha was the same as the devil! I see religion and psychotherapy, in contrast, as synergistic. Although all of my work is totally secular, and based on research and clinical experience, the overlap of TEAM-CBT with all religious traditions is clear and unmistakable. I love it when clergymen, rabbis, or imams attend my workshops and point out the common grounds with what I’m teaching and their theological beliefs. We did more role playing during the podcast, as Brian also wanted to focus on his feelings of insecurity resulting from relentless self-critical thoughts, like, “I suck at dancing, so I’m worthless”. We used THE Externalization of Voices along with the Acceptance Paradox, the Self-Defense Paradigm, and the CAT (Counter-Attack Technique) to challenge his negative thoughts. We also used Positive Reframing to reduce his resistance to giving up his self-criticisms. We did a number of role plays with role reversals, just as we’d done earlier when practicing the Five Secrets. Brian was incredibly fun to work with, and Rhonda and I developed great affection and admiration from him. We’ll try to post some follow-up, too, once Brian has had the chance to listens to the audio with his wife We can perhaps get her responses to the show and include them in the show notes. There were at least two keys to the rapid progress Brian has made learning to use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication with very little input from me. He is very much in love with Michelle and intensely committed to improving their relationship. He has high standards and is willing to put in the work that is necessary to master the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, not only in his interactions with his wife, but also with people in general. He has also been willing to put in the work to learn to change the way he thinks and feels, so he can modify his internal dialogue as well as the way he communicates with others. Your internal and external dialogues will often fuel each other. You know that Brian is a professional dancer. Can you guess what he does for a living? I was surprised and delighted to learn that Brian runs a Break Dance School in Long Beach, California, for children, teens, and adults. Here is the link in case you want to contact him or sign up for some awesome break dance classes! Webreakdance.com Instagram.com/Webreak Here are some awesome video links you can watch: Webreak Soul Evolution Crew Performance: https://youtu.be/M4FzENnYXj4 Brian Breakdancing Solo: https://www.instagram.com/tv/CHjr8yXhGk7/?igshid=1341ipmr311ho