#254, Ask Matt, Rhonda, and David (with the famed Dr. Rutherford Knows) Today we are again joined by the fantastic Dr. Matthew May for an Ask David. Rhonda and I are thrilled that Matt will be joining us every month. His input will give you a broader range of insights and answers to your many excellent questions! Here are the questions we will address on today’s podcast. Karine asks: How can I help my daughter with anorexia? Shirley asks: How can you deal with people who are emotionally abusive, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication? Guy asks: Are there any Five Secrets practice groups I could join? * * * Karine asks: How do I help my daughter with anorexia? Hello Dr. Burns, I am trying to help my daughter who is starting to have anorexia with your book as the consultations are not working and we are waiting on a list for a specialist which can take months or even year here in Quebec. I have read both of your last books and i am getting good to use it for social anxiety. However. i can’t see exactly how to apply it for eating disorder. I asked her to list the benefits she gained from not eating and i am trying to help her see the cognitive disorder in it but it is much harder (ex: i loose weight quickly...which will do ... ) i may help her see the cognitive disorder in the « which will do ... » but not in the « i will lose weight » statement ). Could you help me see the pattern i should follow please as i really think your technique can help her faster and better than the traditional psychologist conversation. Regards Karine * * * Shirley asks: How can you deal with people who are emotionally abusive, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Hello David and others, I have been convinced how important using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication are. I do have a question about living with a person who is emotionally abusive. He uses his criticisms of others to manipulate and control them. How do you accept the criticism of such a person who is taking advantage of you accepting the criticism. My soul wants to rebel against these criticisms and against the person who is trying to manipulate me. How do you navigate such a relationship when the abuser will never acknowledge that they are abusing others. He lives in a fantasy world of excuse making and blaming others. Also, how do I acknowledge my weakness and allow the “death” of my ego to happen? Thanks for your consideration and help. Shirley We reviewed this problem and describe how we treat relationship conflicts using TEAM-CBT. This involves giving up blame and examining your own role in the problem. You will discover--and this might be disturbing, or enlightening, or both--that you are contributing in a BIG way to the very problem you're complaining about. You can review Shirley’s partially completed Relationship Journal if you link here. * * * Guy asks: Are there any Five Secrets practice groups I could join? David, Please consider asking one of your skilled therapists to create a Five Secrets of Effective Communication "Practice Group." Possibly the group could be run weekly (virtually) and it would be an opportunity to repeatedly practice each of the secrets. I practice on my own, but I know that learning is often strongest when working with others. Guy Marshall David’s Response Hi Guy, Ana Teresa Silva has a five secrets zoom practice group. Check with her! They are just getting started. ateresasilva6@gmail.com We have an exciting podcast scheduled the next time Matt visits. We will address the many controversies around exposure therapy, and will be joined by a patient Matt recently treated with the fear of leaches! We will also address some of the hundreds of questions submitted by the more than 6,000 fans who registered for my free 90-minute presentation on rapid Recovery from Anxiety which was sponsored by PESI. All the best, Rhonda, Matt, and David (plus Rutherford) If you would like to contact Dr. May, you can reach him at: www.MatthewMayMD.com. Matt added that people interested in treatment can schedule a free 15-minute phone call there, my schedule permitting. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, but due to Covid-19 restrictions is working mostly via Zoom, and can be reached at rhonda@feelinggreattherapycenter.com. She is a Level 4 Certified TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. Check out her new website: www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com.

#253: Sadness as Celebration, Part 2 In today’s podcast, Rhonda and David present Part 2 of their work with a young woman named Rose who has been struggling with profound feelings of grief since learning of a discouraging update on her father’s struggles with multiple forms of cancer. A = Assessment of Resistance At the end of the moving and tearful empathy phase, Rhonda asked Rose if she felt ready to do some work, or needed more time to talk and share her thoughts and feelings. She said she was ready to do some work, and described her goals for the session: I know I cannot change the facts, and I would not want to eliminate the grieving, but I would like to dial down the intensity of some of my emotions, particularly when I’m triggered. Next, we did some Positive Reframing to highlight what was positive about Rose’s feelings. You can click here review the list of positives that we generated. Rose’s Positive Reframing Table* Thought or Feeling List your negative thoughts or feelings, one by one, in this column. Advantages and Core Values--Ask yourself What are some advantages of this thought or feeling? How might it help, protect, or benefit me? What does this negative thought or feeling show about me that is positive and awesome? How does it reflect my core values? Sadness, depression Shows my deep love for my dad and honors the contribution and impact he’s made in my life   Shows the strength of our relationship Anxiety The anxiety is warranted in this situation, shows that I’m being realistic with the situation   It shows my love for my dad, being worried is a way of showing care and concern   It shows that I don’t want him to suffer   It motivates me to connect with him and to make every moment count   It makes me vigilant so I explore every possible treatment option   It motivates us to think about moving to be closer to him   It has motivated us to schedule another visit again in July Guilt Shows my connection to our family   Drives us to visit as much as possible   Shows that I don’t want to live with regret Feeling defective Shows that I’m honest about my flaws   Shows I feel that I’m not doing a good job supporting others, so it means I have high standards in my relationships   Shows that I’m vulnerable Lonely Shows my love for my dad and the important role he plays in my children’s life   Shows how strongly that I value relationships   Motivates me Hopelessness Shows I am being realistic   Prevents me from getting my hopes up too high   Prepares me for the inevitable   Makes me value and make each moment count   Might decide to discontinue the chemo if it causes problems and isn’t helpful   Makes me more vigilant Frustration Shows I haven’t given up or thrown in the towel Anger I will fight and contest this! Now you can review Rose’s Emotions table at the end of Positive Reframing, showing her goals for each emotion when we used the Magic Dial. The idea is to dial each feeling down to a lower level that would reduce your suffering, while still allowing you to preserve all the awesome things about you! Emotions % Now % Goal % After Emotions % Now % Goal % After Sad, depressed, down, unhappy 100 50-60   Lonely, alone 80 10   Anxious, worried, frightened 100 30   Hopeless, discouraged, pessimistic, despairing 90 10   Guilty 80 15   Defeated 70 20   Defective 70 10   Angry 80 25   As you can see, she wanted to dial all of her feelings down to low levels, with the exception of her sadness, which was an expression of her love for her dad. M = Methods We used Explain the Distortions, the Double Standard Technique, and the Externalization of Voices, including the CAT (Counter-Attack Technique). Here’s how Rose challenged Negative Thought #1. 1. He's going to die; we're running out of time. 100 50 No distortions We’re all going to die, but I can be present on those moments when we are together. 100 David discussed healthy vs unhealthy grief, and shared some stories of love and loss. He also talked about the concept of sadness as celebration. In this case, a celebration of Rose’s love for her Dad. The impending loss, of course, is tragic, but the wonderful father daughter relationship is beautiful and perhaps somewhat scarce, as so many people have not had such a beautiful relationship with their parents. At the end, Rose said the session was “incredible and special” You can take a look at her end of session scores on the Daily Mood Log (link). After the session, Rose sent the following email: Hello David and Rhonda, Thank you so much for that amazing session today. I am feeling so much more contentment and gratitude after talking with you both. I even feel lighter and more hopeful. The key insight for me was realizing how special and precious this relationship is that I have, and rather than focusing on what I won't have. It sounds like a cliché, but it is true for me and seems to have freed up a weight. I will definitely do my homework, and will can send you the completed DML after listening to the session as that may help. And as for sharing with my dad, I'm going to be calling him to tell him what a wonderful session I had and that when it is published he can listen to it so as to have and share this beautiful experience. Thank you so much once again! Rose Markotic Thank you for listening today! Rhonda, Rose, and David

#252: Sadness as Celebration, Part 1 In today’s podcast, Rhonda and David present Part 1 of their work with a young woman named Rose. Rose is a 38-year-old mother of two boys aged 2 and 5. She works as a Therapist at an outpatient clinic, the East Bay Center for Anxiety Relief, and is a member of our Tuesday training group at Stanford. Rose sought help because of her profound grief after talking to her mother about her father’s recent visit to his oncologist. Her father has had many severe health problems in the past several years. He’s been a survivor, but suddenly the outlook seems bleak, and Rose feels tremendous sadness and fear, because of her deep love for her father. In most cases, grief does not need treatment. Clearly, grieving is healthy and even necessary when you lose someone you love. However, it can be helpful to distinguish healthy from unhealthy grief. From a cognitive therapy perspective, all feelings, including grief over the loss or impending loss of someone you love, result from your thoughts. Healthy grief results from negative thoughts that are not distorted. For example, if a loved one dies, you may think of all the things you loved about that person and the experiences you will no longer be able to share. Your sadness is actually an expression of your love. Healthy grief, in contrast, results from distorted thoughts. For example, in my book, Feeling Good, I described a young physician who became suicidal when her brother committed suicide because she told herself; “I should have known he was suicidal that day. His death was my fault, and so I, too, deserve to die.” This thought triggered intense guilt, and it contains many of the familiar cognitive distortions, including Self-Blame, Emotional Reasoning, Should Statements, and Discounting the Positive, and Fortune-Telling, to name just a few. With my help, she was able to challenge and crush her distorted thoughts, and her depression disappeared. Then she was then able to grieve his tragic death. Paradoxically, the distorted thoughts that triggered the unhealthy grief had actually prevented her from grieving in a healthy way. Today’s podcast is illuminating because Rose is experiencing a combination of healthy and unhealthy grief resulting from a mix of undistorted and distorted thoughts. The work that Rose did is incredibly inspiring, and sad. Today we will publish the first half of the session, including T = Testing and E = Empathy. Next week, we will publish the second half of the session, starting with the question, “What do we have to offer our patients once we’ve empathized?” Then you will hear the A = Assessment of Resistance and M = Methods portion of our work with Rose. T = Testing Take a look at the Daily Mood Log (LINK) that Rose shared with us at the start of her session. You will see that she had very elevated scores in 8 different categories of negative feelings, suggesting she was in pretty intense distress. We will ask her to rate these feelings again at the end of the session so we can see if she experienced any changes during the session. I’m a firm believer that all therapists should use testing at every session, and many are now doing this, but lots of therapists still refuse for a variety of reasons. I was going to say “bogus reasons,” but didn’t want to sound harsh or dogmatic! To me, the refusal of psychotherapists or psychiatrists to measure symptoms at every session is the “unforgiveable sin!” I don’t believe it is possible to do good therapy, much less world class therapy, without Testing, for a wide variety of reasons: Therapists perceptions of how patients feel, and patients feel about them, are not accurate. Measuring suicidal urges at the start and end of every session can save lives. Seeing how effective. or ineffective, you were at every session allows you to fine tune the therapy and abandon strategies and methods that aren’t working in favor of better techniques. This turns your patients into the greatest teachers you’ve ever had—IF you can take the heat! You will see, for the first time, how your patients rate your Empathy and Helpfulness at every session. At first, this information can be incredibly shocking, but if you process it with your patient at the next session in the spirit of humility, warmth, and curiosity, the experience can be transformative. E = Empathy Rose explained that she was feeling acute grief because of her father’s health problems. He had extensive surgery to remove a cancerous kidney in 2014, but the surgeons found additional unusual growths around his spleen. Her dad has also had open heart surgery, surgery to remove a bone tumor, and many other serious medical problems. She said, “he’s like a cat with nine lives, but we’re concerned that now he’s near the end.” He experienced GI distress and vomiting in September of 2020, and was hospitalized again in February of 2021, but they found nothing. In March, he was again hospitalized, and the doctor found an aggressive cancerous liposarcoma in his abdomen. Then they found more tumors in his back, and determined that it was Stage 3. The usual treatment would include radiation and more surgery, but he simply cannot stand any more surgeries, so we began to lose hope. Rhonda commented that he’s suffered greatly, and the family has suffered as well, since 2014. Rose and her family finally got to visit him in San Diego on Memorial Day, and this was helpful. She said he’s still really active with the activities he loves, including golf and gardening, and treasures every moment, and loves spending time with his two grandsons. Rose painfully described the impact of the pandemic, which meant they were only able to visit him twice in the past year. That made it especially nice to connect and see his grandsons during their Memorial Day visit. She said he was especially “present” and cherished those moments. She said: He was doing pretty well, and was telling his friends that he’s happy with what he’s accomplished in his life. He grew up in Bosnia, and was poor, with many challenges, so family is really important to him. Catholicism was the center of his culture. The whole family feels more connected now. The grief has brought us closer together. He’s started chemotherapy, but I’m pessimistic. The doctor said it was only 20% effective, and it’s expensive: $3,000 a month. I do not really know what the timeline is, but it was helpful to visit in person and to see that he can feel joy. My negative feelings typically run in the range of 50 to 60, but they can be suddenly triggered and spike much higher; for example, when I tell myself that he won’t get to see his grandchildren and share so many important moments with them when they’re growing up. He tries to comfort us when we ask how he’s doing, and he says, “I’m okay; I’m just a little tired.” My anxiety fluctuates because so much is not known. I’m not sure how this will affect him. What will the impact be? I’m afraid he’ll get depressed because he may not be able to do the activities he loves, like golf. I also struggle with feelings of guilt. Should we have visited more? Should we move from the Bay Area to San Diego? We’ve been having some zoom calls, but they’re hard. The boys compete for his attention on the calls. Rhonda asked: “You seem to have so much love for him. What has it been like to have him for a dad?” Rose answered: I have two brothers, and I’m the only daughter, so there’s always been a special connection between my dad and me, and his values of hard work and family. Soccer has been really important, and he was so proud when Croatia won the world cup. Connection has always been so important. I wanted to go to South America when I was in my 20’s, because I wanted to learn more Spanish and seek adventure. Everyone said it could be dangerous, so don’t go alone. So my dad went with me, and we had our own wonderful adventures. When I think about that, it makes the feelings of loss all the more painful, because we’re losing that connection. Rhonda and I asked for a grade on empathy. She said: “The session feels warm and I feel connected with both of you. A+” End of Part 1 Next week, you can hear the inspiring and moving conclusion of today's session.

#251, Ask Matt, Rhonda, and David (with the famed Dr. Rutherford Knows) Today we are again joined by the fantastic Dr. Matthew May for an Ask David. Rhonda and I are thrilled that Matt will be joining us every month. His input will give you a broader range of insights and answers to your many excellent questions! Today’s questions were submitted by the more than 6,000 people who registered for my free talk on July 8, 2021 on the Rapid Treatment of Anxiety Disorders which was sponsored by PESI. I was very grateful to PESI for organizing this event, since it was open to shrinks as well as the general public, and that is the same audience that Rhonda and I are trying to reach with our Feeling Good Podcast. By the way, thank you for your ongoing support of the Feeling Good podcasts. Our four millionth download should happen in August! Please keep telling friends about the podcast if you think they might be interested. The very shy but erudite Dr. Knows may again join us and make an occasional comment. Let us know if you like his input and want to hear more from him in future podcasts. If you don’t like him, we can quietly sweep him to the sidelines. Here are the questions we’ll answer today: Hello Dr Burns, excited to be here at your talk today. Could you tell us more about dependency on anti-anxiety medications (benzodiazepines like Valium, Librium Ativan, Xanax, and so forth) and how to inform the client about the dangers of addiction? If this treatment you describe for anxiety disorders is 'rapid' does it linger? Is this rapid response you describe in your treatment of anxiety disorders merely first-aid? Am I right in assuming that the sustained work of psychodynamic therapy, body work, and so forth will still be required? Can you discuss any published or ongoing empirical research on the efficacy of TEAM-CBT compared to other therapy techniques? How does Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT), developed in New York by the late Dr. Albert Ellis in the 1950s, fit into the picture? How does the cognitive distortion, Fortune Telling, apply to specific phobias? Rhonda, Matt, Rutherford, and I thank you for joining us today, and hope you enjoyed the dialogue! Rhonda, Matt, and David (plus Rutherford)

#250: How to Tell Someone, “You Suck!” Featuring special guests, Dr. Matthew May and the always exciting but pedantic Dr. Rutherford Knows, plus our podcast regulars, Rhonda and David Rhonda begins the podcast with a wonderful email from a woman who asked how you might use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication when you have to deliver give negative feedback to someone. Hi David and Rhonda, I’m an avid listener of the podcast and reader of Dr. Burns’ material. I’ve been working my way backwards listening to all the podcasts, and I now own all of Dr. Burns’ books and am working my way through those, too! I’ve especially found the live therapy on the podcast and role-play using the Five Secrets incredibly useful. The Five Secrets of Effective Communication are like a cheat code for life. As I’ve been applying it in my own life, every conflict has had a phenomenal outcome and I end up closer with the other person. It’s incredible. You’ve given many useful examples of using the Five Secrets on the podcast to respond to someone, for example, who is attacking you and you use the disarming technique and inquiry to hear more about how it’s been for them. My question is, how would you use the Five Secrets to initiate a conversation where you have to be the one to bring up something that the other person doesn’t want to hear, or that it may be painful for them to hear? I started to think about this when consulting for a CEO who needed to fire someone, but needed to keep the relationship amicable, as well as consulting with another business owner whose employee had been deceitful and she needed to have a "come-to-Jesus" talk with him. Similarly, I’ve always struggled to bring up something that's bothering me to a spouse or loved one, because I didn't know how to initiate the conversation, and keep it from devolving into an argument (my greatest fear!). Could you perhaps do a role play on the podcast to demonstrate using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication to initiate a difficult conversation, such as: Firing or correcting an employee? Telling a spouse (or loved one) when you’ve felt hurt or angry because of something they did? Obviously you would still use all the same techniques (Stroking, I Feel statements, Inquiry, etc.), but I would love to hear an example. I find the role plays especially useful and would love to hear your expert wording for how you would approach this. Thank you to both of you for all your tremendous work! Rosemary We loved this request, and model how to deliver the bad news to someone using the Five Secrets. David mentioned that when he was in clinical practice, several women he treated were reluctant to give clear negative signals to men who were chasing them, for fear of hurting their feelings. So, out of excessive “niceness,” they ended up leading the man on, sometimes for months, and hurting him even more. It is probably far more merciful and caring to be honest with someone in a kindly way, so he or she can let go and move forward with his or her life. Rhonda, Matt, and David illustrate David’s “Intimacy Drill.” In this exercise, the person delivering the bad news is Person A, and the person receiving the bad news is Person B. The drill involves four steps. First, Person A delivers the bad news to Person B, trying to use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (link). The bad news might be telling Person B that she or he has been fired, or that you’re angry with Person B, for example. Then Person A gives himself or herself a letter grade on how well she or he did. Was it an A,  B,  C,  D, or an F? Then Person B and the observers give a letter grades to Person A as well.. Next, everyone points out what Person A did that was effective, and what was ineffective, using Five Secrets terms. For example, you might say that the Feeling Empathy and Stroking were great, but there was no “I Feel” Statement or Inquiry at the end. Then you can do a role-reversal, and try to model an improved response. This is, by far, the best way to learn the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. However, it requires non-defensiveness on the part of all who participate, and the philosophy of “joyous failure.” This means that you view your errors as opportunities for learning and growth instead of shame and defensiveness! If you want to master the Five Secrets for use in ANY situation, the “Intimacy Exercise” is a fantastic way to practice. However, remember to check your ego at the door, because you’ll probably gets some low grades and make plenty of errors, especially if you’re a beginner. But if you work at it, and keep practicing—which very few people do—you can develop some fantastic communication skills that can help you in personal and professional relationships. Today, we also introduced, in a small way, the very shy and erudite, and somewhat pompous, Dr. Rutherford Knows, who makes an occasional comment. He may agree to participate in future podcasts as well. Dr. Knows could be a really great podcast enhancement, since he (hopefully) makes the rest of us look really good! Let us know what you think! Rhonda and I are really pleased to work with Dr. May again. He is a dear friend and colleague, and, according to David and Rhonda, Matt is one of the finest therapists and teachers on planet earth! I strongly agree with this assessment of Dr. May. If you wish to contact him, you can reach him at: www.MatthewMayMD.com. Matt added that people interested in treatment can schedule a free 15-minute phone call there, my schedule permitting. Thanks! Rhonda and David Rhonda, Matt, and David (with Dr. Rutherford Knows)

Podcast 249 Update on the Amazing Feeling Great Book Clubs! July 5, 2021 Today we report on the first two Feeling Great Book Clubs, with Dr. Brandon Vance and Sunny Choi, LCSW. Brandon explained that more than 200 people signed up for the groups, and that he 100 people on the waiting list for a future book club. The first two clubs have been a tremendous success. Brandon explained why he started the Book Clubs: It’s because these are tools in the book that people who are struggling with depression and anxiety can use to get better. Roughly 10% of the people in the world have significant mental health problems causing functional problems in their lives. That’s eight hundred million people! I have asked myself how we can spread these tools to people around the world. Since I finished my psychiatric residency in 2003, I’ve been mostly working with individuals, but seeing factors influencing their mental health, like oppression, inequality, injustice, lack of safety, prejudice and othering, and environmental destruction with ensuing lack of resources. This has inspired my activism towards changing these things. I feel like we need to take action on those levels as a society. At the same time, we have powerful and empowering skills people can learn on an individual level, and these skills can be taught in group settings to relieve suffering. I think we actually need an “owner’s manual” for the mind, and could teach mental health to children, right along with the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic, as well as adults. Some people have more access to these tools in psychotherapy, but many people in the world may not.  I would love to make these tools like those in Feeling Great more accessible to people worldwide.  The book, Feeling Great, does that, and I created the Feeling Great Book Clubs, as a way to reinforce those concepts, so people can come together in groups during this period of isolation, and learn these techniques, get support, and have their questions answered. Rhonda asked several questions, including Where do the book club members come from? Who helps them? What happens during the hour. The participants come from all over the world, including North and South America, Europe, Asia, Oceania, Africa, and the Middle East. Most are lay people, but 15% are therapists. A number of certified TEAM-CBT therapists help out voluntarily, including: Phillip Lolonis Katie Dashtban Sunny Choi Heather Clague Brandon described the breakout groups: The typical group starts with music, followed by meditation, and a general check-in on how people are feeling. This is followed by answers to questions members have submitted concerning the assigned reading for the week, and reviews of the chapters. Then everyone joins their breakout groups, which are the same each week. This facilitates the development of trust and bonding among the members in each group. There are specific instructions for the breakout groups that relate to the material in the chapters that were assigned for the week. They may discuss questions related to the chapters, or work on a skill presented in Feeling Great. For example, they may work on identifying the cognitive distortions in their thoughts. Then they may use the “Straightforward Technique” or other techniques to challenge their thoughts with “Positive Thoughts.” Last week while reading the chapters on Fortune Telling and Anxiety, we had a check-in circle, where one member describes a mildly embarrassing experience and shares some feelings she or he had. Then the other members practice responding with a couple of the Five Secrets of Communication. For example, they may use “Thought Empathy” to repeat a bit of what the person said along with an “I Feel” Statement and say, “I’m feeling sad to hear that.” In future weeks, we will use this same format but add more of the 5 secrets, including Feeling Empathy, the Disarming Technique, Stroking, and Inquiry. Sunny mentioned that it is neat to see people from the most remote corners of the globe connecting and developing friendships. He said that Brandon’s genius is in how he has created a safe environment to open up and has made the groups really fun, with singing and sharing that have made the groups a powerful and unique personal experience. Sunny explained that when he grew up in Hong Kong, he had anxiety and panic attacks, but you don’t always need a therapist to feel better. One of the most powerful groups was when Sunny shared his grief about a painful personal experience in the group, when his cousin’s restaurant was targeted and vandalized in an act of anti-Asian violence. Working with Sunny in front of the group as if he were a patient, Brandon demonstrated the Feared Fantasy Technique that they’d read about in Feeling Great that week. Brandon said Sunny’s vulnerability opened people up and made it easier for them to share their feelings and experiences. Sunny explained that many Asian people have an anti-therapist bias, but they are very receptive to learning how to use TEAM-CBT techniques in the context of a book club. The club has also stimulated the creativity of people in the group. For example, one member has started a weekly Daily Mood Log practice group and another made visual diagrams of the patient sessions discussed in the book. Sunny said that most of the group members began with the popular belief that therapy has to take a long time, but have discovered that this is not true, and that most people can improve and recover rapidly. At the end of the podcast Brandon played a beautiful audio with touching endorsements for the book club, and for Feeling Great, from people around the world. If you’d like to contact Brandon, you’ll find him at: www.brandonvancemd.com If you’d like to contact Sunny, you’ll find him at: www.bettermoodtherapy.com In the fall, Brandon will be leading two more book clubs starting in mid-August and running through mid-December. If you’d like to learn more about the book clubs or get on the waiting list for the next book club in the fall, please visit www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/book-club. This would be a good to get on the waiting list for that group, since it is filling up rapidly! Rhonda and David

Podcast 248 Ask David and Rhonda! In today’s podcast, Rhonda and David answer some fascinating questions submitted by listeners like you! We both thank you for your interest in our show, and for your kind comments and terrific questions! The Questions Kati asks: I notice that in your therapy sessions, the negative feelings of most of your patients are reduced all the way to 0%, and many become euphoric. I was wondering whether this somewhat contradicts the idea that our negative feelings are useful to us in some way? Kati also asks: Do you believe that empathy can be ‘taught’? Yiftah asks: How could one dangle the carrot effectively and responsibly when offering a cognitive exposure exercise? Yiftah also asks: From your experience can you give examples of cases in which cognitive exposure may not be as safe or as effective? Esther asks: You say there is no convincing or consistent evidence to support most psychodynamic claims about the causes of things. What you said resonates, but aren’t you also just making claims? I have a psychodynamic supervisor, and am struggling to choose between empirically validated treatments and traditional psychodynamic approaches. Sean asks: Burns, what can you do when you are using the disarming technique and the person keeps interrupting you? Ben asks: Since exercise improves the mood of some people who are feeling down, doesn’t this prove that physiologic changes can improve mood, as opposed to changing negative thoughts? The Answers  Note: The answers below were based on David’s email exchanges with the people who asked the questions and were created before today’s podcast. Therefore, the podcast may contain new and different information from these show notes. Hopefully, both the show and the notes will be helpful to you. Rhonda and David   Kati asks I notice that in your live therapy sessions, the negative feelings of most of your patients are reduced all the way to 0%, and many become euphoric. I was wondering whether this somewhat contradicts the idea that our negative feelings are useful to us in some way. David responds Hi Kati, thank you for the kind comments! It is great to get negative feelings to zero and experience enlightenment and joy. However, no one can be happy all the time, so you will have plenty of opportunities to "learn" from negative feelings again. In addition, there is a difference between healthy and unhealthy negative feelings. Healthy sadness is not the same as clinical depression, healthy fear is not the same as a phobia or panic attack, healthy and unhealthy anger are quite different, and so forth. There will bumps in the road of life for all of us at times. * * * Kati also asks Do you believe empathy can be “taught?” As a mum (of a 15 and a 10 year old girls) and a (HS) teacher I notice some people seem to have it more ‘innately’ than others but would also love to think it is an aspect that can be intentionally developed in others in some way. If you think like me, I would love to hear your thoughts on how that could be done (i.e. what practices or strategies would be most helpful to use with young people in particular). I am still in awe that we can have a sort of conversation with such a brilliant and creative mind and I humbly hope you can address these two questions either in one of your podcasts or by responding to this message. In admiration, Kati David responds Thanks again, Kati, With regard to empathy, it is something that can be learned, but it takes commitment and practice. A good first step is the book I wrote on this topic called Feeling Good together. In addition, there is, as you say, an "aptitude" that people have for this or any skill, with a tremendous variability in the population. But regardless of your natural aptitude or lack of it, you can learn and grow tremendously. I started out with very poor listening skills. You can also search for Five Secrets of Effective Communication on the website, using the search function, and you'll find lots of podcasts teaching these skills. david * * * Yiftah asks How could one dangle the carrot effectively and responsibly when offering a cognitive exposure exercise? Dear Dr. Burns, I love your podcast and books. They have completely changed my practice and had helped my personally. In particular it was great to hear you working with Dr. Levitt with cognitive exposure, and your discussion about it. I have two questions regarding cognitive exposure with PTSD (for the podcast. First, how could one dangle the carrot effectively and responsibly when offering a cognitive exposure exercise? David responds Hi Yiftah, I try to deal with the Outcome and Process Resistance issues prior to agreeing to help any patient with anxiety. I might say something like this: “Jim, I’d really love to help you with your fears of X (whatever it is), and I’m pretty convinced that if we work together, you can make some great progress in overcoming your fears. I have more than 30 great tools to help you overcome anxiety, and you’re probably going to love all of them except for one, exposure. Confronting your fears is just one tool among many, but is a vitally important part of the process, and cure is usually impossible without exposure. “For example, I may ask you to do is (I explain the type of exposure we might use.) I know that will be terrifying, and it needs to be terrifying to be effective. I’ll be with you every step of the way, of course. But I need to know if you’d be willing to do that type of thing if I agree to work with you. “I know you’ve told me that you’ve had many therapists in the past who did not use exposure, and that might be why their treatments were not as effective as you’d hoped. And if you absolutely don’t want to use exposure, I would totally understand and support you, but sadly could not agree to treat your fear of X.” * * * Yiftah also asks From your experience can you give examples of cases in which cognitive exposure may not be as safe or as effective? You have a lot of experience with successful exposure treatments, but I had never worked with PTSD. And I hear some "PTSD experts" say that cognitive exposure is a dangerous process that can backfire. And according to papers I've read it doesn't always help. In other words, assuming that one had worked correctly with the Empathy and Assessment of resistance phases: how safe and how effective is prolonged cognitive exposure with severe PTSD? From your experience can you give examples of cases in which cognitive exposure may not be as safe or as effective? I mean are there some conditions or distorted thoughts that categorically need to be dealt with successfully before going for exposure? For example, would there be any special considerations when working with patients with thoughts connected to shame, self-blame and hopelessness, as well as habits and addictions, or relationship issues? Thank you Yiftah David responds Thanks again! Let’s assume that you are treating a veteran who is paranoid and living alone in the woods, who tells you that he is afraid of “losing it” and blowing people away with his automatic rifle. I would not want to have him fantasize blowing people away in order to overcome his fear, especially if he is prone to violence and has poor impulse control, and is psychotic. This could conceivably trigger him to do something violent, and I’d have a hard time explain my therapy methods to the police after he kills many people in the local mall. At the same time, the vast majority of anxious people who are afraid of doing something horrible or violent have OCD, and are totally safe. So, it takes judgment. Powerful techniques require therapists with exceptional skills, training, and thoughtfulness. It ALWAYS pays to be thoughtful and cautious! And this has nothing to do with cognitive exposure per se, but all of the > 100 techniques that I use. They can all hurt, including empathy, if not done skillfully, and with compassion. Backfiring occurs when therapists don’t do or know how to prepare the patient for the methods you plan to use. Anytime you “throw” techniques at patients, you are asking for trouble. Remember, TEAM is a systematic, step-by-step package that is done as a sequence. Your patient has to give you an “A” on empathy before you can even go on to the Assessment of Resistance. My experience has shown me that most therapists, including the so-called experts, do not know how to get an A grade on empathy, and may not have outstanding empathy skills. Trust is so important in the treatment of anxiety, and always has to come first. Before using any M = Methods, you will need to address the patient’s Outcome and Process Resistance, and get some agreement on what you plan to do and how you plan to do it. Should we not use a technique because it doesn’t always work? All techniques often fail. TEAM is based on “failing as fast as you can!” If you can’t use a technique that sometimes fails, then you can’t use ANY technique! Also, I never treat anxiety with one technique. I use a great many techniques drawn from four very different treatment models: the Cognitive Model the Motivational Model the Exposure Model the Hidden Emotion Model I sometimes get tired / annoyed with so-called experts who love to spout off, saying things that to my ear sound like half-truths. But then again, I do the exact same thing! At any rate, neither Jill nor I have ever had a bad outcome with any form of exposure, but we are both pretty careful, and try hard to be compassionate and to prepare the patient. You have to be thoughtful and careful. For example, Shame Attacking Exercises can be life changing, but they require half a brain on the part of the therapist. For example, I wouldn’t throw someone with poor interpersonal skills into a potentially awkward or hurtful Shame Attacking Exercise. All powerful techniques have the potential to heal or harm. The same scalpel that a surgeon uses to save a life can also be used by a murderer to slit someone’s throat. d * * * Esther asks You say there is no convincing or consistent evidence to support most psychodynamic claims about the causes of things. What you said resonates, but aren’t you also just making claims? I have a psychodynamic supervisor, and am struggling to choose between empirically validated treatments and traditional psychodynamic approaches. Hi David, I absolutely love your stuff! I’ve used some parts of feeling good in my practice as a therapist and in my personal life for some time, but I’ve recently gotten much more into your teachings and I’ve been thinking a lot about TEAM-CBT. And thank you for providing all these free resources for the public! In episode 230 (about 22 minutes in) Rhonda asked you about a common psychodynamic type of claim- “a child of alcoholics either become an alcoholic, marries an alcoholic or becomes a therapist of an alcoholic.” You responded by saying “people love those kinds of theories because people want to think they know the causes of things.” Then you went on to disagree, claiming that there isn’t much evidence to support these types of claims. At first what you said very much resonated with me, and yet I began to think about it and realized the irony in your response: you had explained people’s tendency to come up with such theories with your own cause (“people want to think they know the causes of things”), something which I doubt you’ve been able to test in a research study (though perhaps I’m wrong!) And yet what you said still resonates with me and highlights the crux of my question: isn’t there any value in intuition (without any evidence) in determining the causes of things? For instance, I think your causal explanation here is highly intuitive. (Even though an alternative explanation could have involved something not inherently psychological, like “people err because they think correlation implies causation” or something. This is not just a theoretical question for me. I currently work under a wonderful supervisor who takes a psychodynamic approach to many issues, and I am very suspicious of some his theories, but it seems that he is a great therapist. Further, I think that many people in school and in the early stages of practice (including myself) are conflicted about whether or not they wish to train further in evidence-based approaches or in a psychodynamic type of school. I think this important question is sometimes at the root of the issue. (Although psychodynamic theories are sometimes not at all intuitive.) For a practical example- something I always found intuitive is the role low self-esteem seems to play in people with inflated egos or the role it can play with those who have anger issues (In which the ego or anger serve to “compensate” for the low self-esteem). When I was working with a client who suffered in these two areas, I began by educating him about this notion (which resonated with him) and we began to address his low self-esteem. Later, however, I happened across an article claiming that this intuitive notion is not supported by research. It called into question many of my intuitions when conceptualizing cases and treating my clients. Finally, I just picked up a copy of “Feeling Great” (it’s awesome, by the way!) and I noticed you talked about the hidden emotion technique. Once we’re on the topic of evidence; do you have any evidence that this particular technique is helpful? Is there research backing such a technique? (I’m particularly suspicious of it given its psychodynamic flavor :) I apologize if you’ve addressed these questions somewhere already- I’ve only just begun to avidly read your stuff and listen to your podcast. Thank you so much! Esther David responds Hi Esther, This is an important email and if I can find the time, and may address it in an Ask David. You write: “This is not just a theoretical question for me. I currently work under a wonderful supervisor who takes a psychodynamic approach to many issues, and I am very suspicious of some his theories, but it seems that he is a great therapist.” It’s great that he is a great therapist, and it will be fun for you to learn from him. There are two caveats, perhaps. First, therapists’ views of changes in the negative feelings of their patients, like depression, are not especially accurate, so his self-report of his effectiveness may not have a lot of credibility. I have measured therapist accuracy in a study at the Stanford Hospital, and found an accuracy of only 3% in detecting changes in depression, even after exhaustive, systematic interviews with patients about how they feel. Second, most therapists have only a placebo effect, although they will strenuously insist it ain’t true! And their effectiveness is almost definitely not the result of the specific tools they are using, but other factors. Many outcome studies have been consistent with this type of conclusion. But still, learning from the wisdom of an older therapist can be awesome! With regard to the Hidden Emotion Technique, it IS a kind of modernized psychodynamic technique. I don’t think it has been studied, but I no longer keep up with research. I find it exceptionally helpful in myself (I am anxiety prone) and in about 50% or more of anxious patients. And I have found I can engage in really rewarding conversations with psychodynamic therapists when I describe this technique. I enjoy this type of dialogue, challenging our favorite ideas. Have you ever heard of the “confirmation paradox?” My memory is that if theory A predicts observation B, and you see observation B, you may wrongly conclude that theory A is confirmed. For example, the theory that the sun revolves around the earth predicts that the sun will come up in the east in the morning and set in the west in the evening. So, we do see that every day, and we wrongly conclude that we have confirmed our theory that the sun revolves around the earth. Same is true for psychological theories about the causes of depression or whatever. The problem is that your observations also confirm a large number of alternative theories that all would have predicted the same thing. You can disconfirm a causal theory with data based on an experiment or natural observation, but you cannot actually confirm any theory in science. You can only say that your data are consistent with this or that theory, and that you have failed to disprove your theory based on your observations. I tested many theories about the linkages between Self-Defeating Beliefs (SDBs), like Perfectionism, and changes in negative feelings over time in several hundred patients treated at my clinic in Philadelphia. The data was not consistent with causal linkages between SDBs and negative feelings, even though there were strong correlations between them at both time points, and even though changes in SDBs were strongly correlated with changes in SDBs. david PS You might enjoy this psychoanalysis poem by another Esther who is a member of our Tuesday TEAM training group at Stanford. GOODBYE TO ALL THAT: THE JOY OF PRACTICING PSYCHOANALYSIS No more forms, no need for technique No more brain strain week after week, Ditch those methods — fifty, a hundred, A thousand ways I might have blundered.   So long agenda, don’t mention homework Just perfect that withering shmirk. Surveys, grades, throw them away You know it’s sex, whatever they say.   Gone for good are your twelve distortions, Out with charts and their crazy proportions. Is that a purse I see before me? Nope! It’s your mother’s vagina. You think that’s a joke?   Such progress we are making you must admit Only ten years and we are ready to dip Into that complex where troubles all lie The mom you must marry, the dad who must die.   Two hundred sessions a year and each one two hundred Over ten years $400,000! I sundered… WHAT? I was…er… giving thought to your dream (And the cabbage I missed doing TEAM.)   How can you say you’re worse off than before While standing in front of Enlightenment’s door? You say you’ve awakened to find I’m a nitwit, & at last you’re done with all of this horseshit!   Goodbye, my patient, there’s the door, A pity you are so very sore. But let me say just one thing more — You really are a frightful bore.   — Esther Wanning * * * Sean asks Dr. Burns, what can you do when you are using the disarming technique and the person keeps interrupting you? I’ve recently been practicing the 5 secrets and I am still learning how to apply the techniques. I listened to many podcasts and I’m reading your books/doing the exercises. I’m a complete believer in your method! Thank you! During the disarming, if the person continues to aggressively interrupt and ask pointed questions, how do I continue to stay engaged in the conversation? I repeat the steps. I agree/try and find the truth, paraphrase the comments, along with practicing feeling/thought empathy. The person continues to interrupt, argue, blame, and ask questions to prove their point. Do I just continue to try the secrets? In the moment it seems like it’s impossible, but I stay committed. Thanks Sean David responds Hi Sean, I have often said that these abstract questions have very little value. The devil is in the details, the specific example. If you give me an example of what the other person said, and what, exactly, you said next, I will probably, or almost certainly, be able to show you what your errors were, and how you are forcing the person to keep attacking you. However, this can be painful, to suddenly see how you are causing the exact problem you are complaining about. But also freeing. So, the answer, in short, is that you are probably not using the Five Secrets correctly, but you get lots of credit for your efforts, and some feedback may help you. d PS Sadly, I never got a specific example from Sean. That is too bad, because abstract questions and answers never have much, if any, practical value or impact. All the learning is in the specific example, which becomes a mind-blowing learning experience. But, sometimes people don’t seem to “get” this message! * * * Ben asks Since exercise improves the mood of some people who are feeling down, doesn’t this prove that? Hello David! I am a frequent listener of your podcast, and am currently going through your new book, "Feeling Great". The importance of treating depression at specific moments in time, addressing self-defeating beliefs, and the death of the "self" are all topics that are of particular interest to me. I have a question for you. You make the claim that depression & anxiety always result from distorted thoughts -- that our thoughts always cause our feelings. If that is the case, what do you make of the research that shows that aerobic exercise can be an effective treatment for them? Doesn't that indicate that there could be a physical basis for some cases of anxiety & depression? I have certainly found exercise to be tremendous help for me in keeping my anxiety at bay -- a vigorous session of exercise just seems to "slow down" my mind or reduce the volume of the voice that's always chattering away in the background for hours afterward. Could people be getting more depressed and anxious because they simply don't move as much or as vigorously as our bodies have evolved to? Thank you for your amazing work and the generosity with which you share it. I've recommended your podcast to many people, and will continue to do so! Take care, Ben David responds Hi Ben, Great question. I like your critical thinking! To test this idea, we would, of course, have to measure the positive and negative thoughts of individuals who are, and individuals who are not, helped by exercise. You cannot just assume something either way. I believe that all change in moods, regardless of the treatment intervention, is mediated by a reduction in the distorted thoughts that trigger the depression. This is a testable hypothesis. Many people tell themselves things like, “Oh, I’m exercising now, this will really help me, I’m keeping up with my commitments to my health,” and so forth. I, for one, have never had a mood elevation from exercise. My daughter finds exercise very helpful. I suspect you will find a sharp reduction in negative thinking in individuals who are helped by exercise. We have to be careful about jumping to conclusions about causality. I have a mild case of sciatica, and a medication like Tylenol makes the pain disappear. Does this mean that sciatica is due to a Tylenol deficiency? I did a study with an N of 1. I asked a severely depressed man to fill out a part of a Daily Mood Log every evening. He recorded the situation, then circled and rated his feelings, and then recorded his negative thoughts and how much he believed them. Then he flipped a coin and either jogged for 45 minutes or worked on challenging his distorted thoughts for 45 minutes. In both cases, after 45 minutes he recorded any reductions in his negative thoughts and feelings. The days when he worked with the DML he experienced pronounced reductions in his belief in his negative thoughts and in his negative feelings. The days he jogged, in contrast, there were no reductions in his negative thoughts or feelings. analysis of the data with structural equation modeling confirmed that the change in his negative feelings was caused by the reduction in his belief in his negative thoughts. Just a small pilot study, and could be done on a larger group. However, the researcher would have to have a sophisticated understanding of how the DML works, and how to elicit distorted thoughts from people who are depressed and anxious. david Ben’s reply Wow! I didn't expect such a quick and thorough reply! Thank you, David. Love the Tylenol example. Such a powerful way to demonstrate the hazards of assuming causality, and also show me how easy it is to assume causality without even realizing I am doing so. Your study of the severely depressed man was ingenious as well. It gave me some good food for thought about *why* exercise might be so helpful for me -- that I can't assume that it's because I've manipulated my physiology in some way. It could very well be that I end up feeling good because I have pursued a difficult activity that I value, and thus feel as though I have accomplished something. I can see why someone who *doesn't* rely on accomplishments to feel "worthwhile" or doesn't even think of exercise is an accomplishment might not get the same boost. Indeed, there have almost *certainly* been times that I've exercised and felt WORSE afterward, but I'm mentally filtering those instances out. Like when I've gone for a run even though I was supposed to be getting dinner ready, and then the family is frustrated w/ me and hungry! ;-) I don't really get to bask in the glow of Accomplishment(tm) then! Take care, and thanks again! -Ben David responds again Hi Ben, Thanks. I ‘ve always said the thing about exercise raising brain endorphins was just something someone made up, but people wouldn’t listen to me for the most part. I pointed that human brain endorphins cannot be measured, so there cannot be any evidence all for this theory. I recently said an article where they blocked brain endorphin receptors in people who got the runner’s high. They still got the runner’s high, proving brain endorphins could not possibly be involved! People tend to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the evidence. We see this in politics and in religion in a big way, but it is true in all walks of life. david Rhonda and David

The Night My Childhood Ended, Part 2 In today’s podcast, we present the second half of the therapy session with Todd, who did personal work focused on the impact of a traumatic event that ended his childhood when he was eight. Last week, we presented the T = Testing and E = Empathy phase of the session. Today we present the A = Assessment of Resistance, M = Methods, final testing, and teaching points. A = Assessment of Resistance Todd’s goal was to be able to feel more vulnerability by the end of the session. During the Positive Reframing, we listed the positives that were embedded in Todd’s negative thoughts and feelings. My sadness shows my humanity. My sadness shows my commitment to family. I put others before me and value the time people are taking by listening to this session. I challenge myself to work on myself. My negative thoughts and feelings make me a more loving husband and parent, and a more committed and effective therapist. I love my mom and want to protect her. I have high standards. Although I feel like I was and still am “a frickin’ coward,” sharing this shows tremendous courage. As you listen, you’ll see that it was incredibly difficult for Todd to see anything positive in the fact that he was that calling himself a coward. He kept thinking that he “should” have gone in earlier to try to help and save his mother, and that this might have changed the entire trajectory of his life. At the same time, he conceded that he was just a little guy, and that his father was an incredibly frightening and intimidating figure. You can see Todd’s Daily Mood Log at the end of A = Assessment of Resistance (link). As you can see, he wanted to reduce all of his negative feelings quite dramatically, but he wanted his sadness to remain at 100%, because he wanted to be able to feel this emotion and grieve. M = Methods Jill and I tried a variety of techniques during the Methods phase of the session, including a new version of the Double Standard Technique. I played the role of the 8-year old Todd, and he played the role of himself. I verbalized all of his Negative Thoughts, “But isn’t it true that I rally was a frickin’ coward?” and challenged him to crush them. This helped Todd get in touch with his compassionate and realistic self. You can see his final Daily Mood Log. As you can see, there was a dramatic reduction in all of his negative thoughts except sadness, which fell to 80%. You will recall that his goal for sadness was 100%. There were lots of positive messages for Todd throughout the session in the chat box. There were many outpourings of love and admiration for Todd's courage and vulnerability. We sent those messages to him after the end of the session, and that was when the tears finally came. Here’s an email we received from him after the session. What an evening! I just saw the video again and I was so blown away from the amazing love and support I felt from all of you last night. I also was able to tear up a bit when I was reading all of the heart felt chats that Alex had shared with me. I would give all of you an A+ on empathy for sure. Finally, I'm so grateful to JIll and David for their compassion, and for helping me reconnect with little Todd and feel much closer to all of you. What an awesome night and group! Brandon Vance MD sent a link to a song one of his students created, and Todd responded to it: Last night, it was so awesome to listen to the musical recording that your student so beautifully shared with us. I'm not one to cry very easily, but I was so moved by the lyrics and the emotions in that song. I've been so amazed at how you continuously evolve TEAM in so many wonderful and creative ways. Kudos! Here's the link to the song if you'd like to listen! I also found it moving and beautiful. Cassie Kellogg is the performer and songwriter, and her song is called Double Standard, which is the method that proved so helpful for Todd. Some interesting information about Brandon and Cassie, as well as the words to her song, appear at the bottom of the show notes. There were also tons of positive comments about the session in the teaching evaluation at the end of the session, with overwhelming outpourings of love and appreciation for Todd. Time after time, the personal work we sometimes do while teaching seems to make the most positive emotional impact on our students. And, of course, the teaching value can be tremendous. Teaching Points 1. T = Testing is crucial. If you met Todd, you would have no idea how he feels inside, and if you were his therapist, and you did not use the Brief Mood Survey at the start and end of every session, and the Evaluation of Therapy Session at the end of every session, you would also be partially “blind” to how Todd was feeling, and how dramatically his feelings changed at the end of the session. Most therapists still are not using session by session assessment, and they are at a severe disadvantage that they are not even aware of. I am convinced that it is impossible to do great, or even excellent therapy with these, or similar, instruments. 2. Sometimes you have to slow down to speed up. During the empathy portion I made and corrected an error, with Jill's help, of jumping in prematurely with a method that fell flat. It is easy to give in to hunches and try methods prematurely, prior to doing careful and skillful E = Empathy and A = Assessment of Resistance. One good thing about TEAM is you can easily "right the boat" when it tips, and get back on track. TEAM works way better as a systematic package. Some therapists who learn about TEAM may try to "borrow" this or that M = Method, and incorporate it into their current approach, but that is generally far less effective. 3. A = Assessment of Resistance can be challenging. Positive Reframing can be quite difficult because you have to "see" something obvious that is almost invisible to the naked eye. Initially, Todd had tremendous trouble seeing any value in his self-critical thought that he was "an effing coward” when he and his older brother hid out during his parents’ brutal and terrifying fight. TEAM is not a cookbook, formulaic, treatment manual type of therapy. It requires “insight” on the part of the therapist, and the skills to lead the patient into seeing what you. therapit, (hopefully) have seen. 4. Childhood traumas can often be reversed--quickly. Another important teaching point might be that even traumatic childhood events that have totally rocked someone's world and self-esteem for decades can often be "undone" quickly using TEAM. Joy and self-esteem are possible for every human being. 5. Hopelessness is a cruel illusion. If you’re depressed, you have a deep (and misguided) incredibly painful belief that things are hopeless when they aren't. These feelings of hopelessness are common, but demoralizing at best and dangerous at worst. More about Brandon and Cassie: Dr. Brandon Vance writes: Cassie was an outstanding student of mine when I was teaching CBT last fall at CIIS in San Francisco (California Institute of Integral Studies). My final project was on sharing CBT with the public and suggested that the students could do a creative project or a paper. Cassie was inspired by the Double Standard technique personally and professionally, as she's studying to be a Marriage and Family Therapist. She wrote this song for her final project. Although she has had some experience singing, this was the first song she ever wrote (and she taught herself piano recently). I played the song just before the Feeling Great Book Club one week. and then read the words out loud in the book club. My voice cracked as I was tearing up reading them. As a musician, I am blown away at the power of the words, how well-crafted the song is, and Cassie’s singing and performance. Even the old record-like quality of the recording, with the slightly out-of-tune piano, and faint sounds of kids in the background, adds to the atmosphere! Here are the beautiful words to Cassie's song, Double Standard: You get so down on yourself Convinced you don’t need help What would you say If the reflection in the mirror Was someone you loved Would you say, babe, you’re worth it It’s okay not to be okay Would you help her up and remind her Of her strength And don’t you deserve the same grace So when you’re down on yourself Convinced you don’t need help Remember what you’d say if the reflection in the mirror was someone you love tell yourself that you’re worth it it’s okay not to be okay hold yourself up and remember all your strength you deserve all the grace so when you’re down on yourself convinced you don’t need help remember what you’d say if the reflection in the mirror was someone you love because the reflection in the mirror is someone who deserves love Thanks Todd! Thanks Cassie! Thanks Brandon! You have touched all of us! If you would like to contact Todd, you can reach him at: todd.daly@gmail.com Warmly, david and rhonda

The Night My Childhood Ended, Part 1 In today’s podcast, we present the first half of a therapy session with Todd, who describes a traumatic event that ended his childhood when he was eight. Next week, you will hear the exciting and inspiring last half of Todd’s session. My co-therapist is Dr. Jill Levitt, the Director of Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, CA, and one of the co-leaders of my weekly training group at Stanford. We are deeply indebted to Jill and Todd for making this incredible and extremely personal podcast possible. Todd hopes, and we all hope, that it will be helpful to many people around the world who are suffering, and perhaps hiding the scars from your own traumatic experiences. As we always do in TEAM, Jill and I went through T, E, A, M in consecutive order, and I will give an overview of each phase of the session. T = Testing and E = Empathy Todd started by saying: I’m uncomfortable with all the attention I’m getting right now, and I’m worried about derailing the group, since our plan was to have teaching on exposure tonight. I’m going to describe one of the worst nights of my life, when I was 8 years old. It was the last night our family lived together, and my childhood essentially ended. But I’m not looking for a pity party. When I think about that night, I feel 100% sad and shitty. My life isn’t shitty. but when I think about that night, it’s incredibly discouraging. Here’s what I’m telling myself right now: I’m more screwed up than anyone else in this group. 100% I worse than all of the others. 100% My parents got married very young, when they were 18. I was raised in the 1970’s, which wasn’t the child-centered world like it is today. My parents drank all the time. and they’ve both had lifelong challenge with addictions and mental health. In fact, my mom got arrested for a DUI just last week. I have one older brother, and we were on our own most of the time. My parents had a horrible fight one night. It was the last night our family was together. They were both drunk and screaming at each other. They began physically fighting in their bedroom, and I thought my dad was going to kill my mom. My brother and I were scared, and we hid in the bedroom and created a fort with our bunk beds. Then things got quiet, so we decided to see what had happened, and went into their bedroom. Mom was badly beaten up, her face was all bruised, and dad seem horribly embarrassed and ashamed. It was devastating, because I told myself that I should have done something to help her, to save her, and I felt, and still feel, like a frickin’ coward. I believe that 100%, and have felt ashamed every time I think about it. I feel all alone. I’m here, but I’m not here. That was the end of my childhood. I don’t like to think about it. My father moved out, and my brother lived with him. I lived with our mom. The idea at home was always, “don’t speak unless you’re spoken to.” Dad was very angry and controlling. He was angry at my mom for not taking better care of my brother and me. He was angry at life, and I’m also angry and disappointed in her for not taking better care of us. I want to be able to get in touch with my vulnerability and my emotions. Then I stop myself and say, “I’m not allowed to have these feelings.” I want to be consoled, comforted, and not be so hard on myself. Maybe I want people to feel closer to me. You can see Todd’s Daily Mood Lot at the start of the session (link). As you can see, he was incredibly upset, and had eight Negative Thoughts, and his belief in all of them was strong, with most at 100%. Next week, you will hear the dramatic conclusion of Todd’s personal work, including the A and M of TEAM! If you would like to contact Todd, you can reach him at:  todd.daly@gmail.com david and rhonda

Ask Rhonda, Matt, and David! Tips for Joy and more! In today’s Ask David, we are honored to feature Matthew May, MD, a former student of David’s during his psychiatric residency training, and now esteemed colleague. Rhonda and David are thrilled that Matt can join us, not only because he is a dear and loved colleague, but also because he is one of the greatest therapists on planet earth! Plus, he’s an incredibly gentle and compassionate man. Rhonda Asks: What is the most effective way to help a suicidal patient? Rhonda Asks: How would you teach, the technique, Thinking in Shades of Grey to therapists or patients? Brian Asks: Any tips for joy? ThisLife asks: "Could you possibly explain why Albert Elis thinks the three valid uses of shoulds are valid, and provide the source where he explain this point, if convenient?” Mark Asks: Why is trying to change a person or help fix a person's emotional problems insulting? And how can I stop this habit? Along the same lines, EJG asks, “What’s the best way to help people who don’t want any help?” Rhonda and David