BE THAT LAWYER

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Scott Simmons discuss:Effective time management in the legal professionDeveloping habits and accountability for consistent business developmentBuilding a client-focused business model in lawOvercoming personal and systemic barriers to success in legal business development Key Takeaways:Allocating just 30 minutes weekly to business development can compound into significant progress over time, enabling lawyers to take control of their career trajectory.Transitioning from billable hours to value-based or subscription pricing models requires not just a pricing shift but a comprehensive business model overhaul.Lawyers must use tools like LinkedIn and existing client relationships to secure referrals effectively; over 90% of clients are willing to refer, yet only 8% of lawyers ask for them.Small, incremental habit changes, such as reading a chapter a week or posting on LinkedIn weekly, are more sustainable and impactful than attempting major shifts all at once. "What business development does is give you options, leverage, and control over your career choices. We're not taught this, and.....it's not something covered in law school." —  Scott Simmons Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name! Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: Atomic Habits by James Clear Outbound Squad Podcast About Scott Simmons: Scott Simmons, Co-Founder & Director of Legal Balance, is a toolbox for turning lawyers into rainmakers. After a successful law career, he discovered a passion for coaching and has spent 12 years helping lawyers build careers and senior executives excel. He offers bespoke training, coaching, and leadership courses globally and created The BD Breakthrough Blueprint™, a digital course for aspiring rainmakers. Scott writes and speaks on legal business development, value-based pricing, and subscription models. A husband, father, and film lover, he often includes movie analogies like Jaws or When Harry Met Sally in his sessions. Connect with Scott Simmons:  Website: https://www.legalbalanceinstitute.com/Email: scott.simmons@legalbalance.co.ukLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottsimmonsbdm/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Gordon Firemark discuss:Podcasting as a tool for branding, content creation, and growthLegal and ethical essentials for podcastingStreamlining podcast production with AI and techLeveraging unique marketing strategies to enhance professional presence Key Takeaways:Podcasting generates diverse discoverable content by utilizing video, audio, and transcription, which can be repurposed into clips, blog posts, or courses to expand reach.Preparation with detailed outlines, structured workflows, and AI tools simplifies production.Legal consent from guests is essential, covering recording, editing, and perpetual use, including AI-related content integrity.Success relies on audience-building through consistent, targeted content that establishes authority and drives client acquisition and referrals. "Once you do [podcasting], I think it is a fantastic way of getting the word out and publishing your message on a regular basis." —  Gordon Firemark Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name! Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: The Expert Edge Podcast with Colin Boyd: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/expert-edge-podcast/id1500505303 About Gordon Firemark: Gordon Firemark, widely known as "The Podcast Lawyer™," is a seasoned entertainment attorney specializing in podcasting law. With 32 years of experience, he advises podcasters and clients in theater, film, television, and digital media. A sought-after speaker and writer on legal issues affecting digital creators, Gordon has been featured in numerous podcasts, webinars, and industry events. He hosts the Entertainment Law Update podcast (since 2009) and Legit Podcast Pro, providing expert insights on podcasting law. Gordon is also the author of the Podcast, Blog & New Media Producer’s Legal Survival Guide and develops online courses for creatives, entrepreneurs, and small firm lawyers. Connect with Gordon Firemark:  Website: https://firemark.comEmail: gfiremark@firemark.comLinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/gfiremarkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/gfiremarkInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/gordonfiremark/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Tracy LaLonde discuss:Dynamics of trust in professional and client relationshipsStress management and work-life balance strategiesEffective delegation and communication for legal professionalsMaintaining integrity and transparency in business Key Takeaways:Trust grows through intentional, proactive communication, where even small gestures like timely responses build respect, while ignoring issues can erode trust and risk client loyalty.Finding personal joy amid work demands means setting boundaries (like leaving office on time) and developing discipline to prioritize non-work activities, even when emails and tasks pile up.Incremental delegation—starting with small tasks and expanding—builds confidence and trust, allowing the delegator to guide quality without an "all-or-nothing" approach.Acknowledging when personal matters affect responsiveness and communicating transparently with clients, even with a brief update, repairs trust and reassures them of quality service. "Integrity is everything. And I define integrity as doing what you say you’re going to do when you said you were going to do it." —  Tracy LaLonde Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name! Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker About Tracy LaLonde: Tracy LaLonde, an engaging trainer and speaker with over 30 years of experience, is dedicated to revolutionizing engagement in law firms. She offers practical, easy-to-digest guidance backed by cutting-edge research that will make a lasting impact on lawyers and business professionals. Through Joychiever’s Hierarchy of Engagement, as well as her comprehensive courses, Tracy equips law firms with tools to boost engagement, foster trust, minimize burnout, bolster financial performance, and create a culture where people thrive. With her dynamic approach, Tracy is setting a new standard for the legal industry. Connect with Tracy LaLonde:  Website: https://www.joychiever.com/Email: tracy@joychiever.comBook: Trust Me: The Insider's Guide to Being the Go-To Person at WorkLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracylalonde/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Deb Feder discuss:Importance of client relationship management and deepening connectionsPrioritizing tasks to enhance productivity and work-life balanceRole of social media in professional growth and networkingEffective business development and optimizing client interactions Key Takeaways:Lawyers can achieve more sustainable productivity by prioritizing just two major tasks before checking email each day, preventing inbox overwhelm from dictating their workflow.Strategic questioning, like asking "Tell me more" or inquiring about specific client concerns, allows lawyers to gather deeper insights that often reveal additional opportunities to add value.LinkedIn profile optimization—especially the "about" section and professional headline—helps professionals attract the right clients by clearly reflecting their expertise and approach.Lawyers should leverage informal moments and small talk in client interactions to create authentic connections, which ultimately build client loyalty and lead to new business opportunities. "Tell me more… triggers your brain to get back in and actually actively listen, and from there you can thoughtfully respond." —  Deb Feder Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at steve@fretzin.com with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name! Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: Make No Small Plans: Lessons on Thinking Big, Chasing Dreams, and Building Community About Deb Feder: Deb Feder, CEO of Feder Development, LLC, is a business development and practice management strategist and coach for lawyers and law firms. Having practiced corporate law for 15 years, her work focuses on helping lawyers and professionals bring in consistent clients through curious, confident conversations. Deb holds a history degree from the University of Michigan and her JD/MBA from the University of Iowa. She completed her coach training and certification through New Ventures West and completed training in The Daring Way, which is based on the research of Dr. Brené Brown. She is the author of After Hello and Tell Me More. Connect with Deb Feder:  Website: https://debfeder.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bizdeb/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Brian Zapf discuss:Financial planning and metrics for law firmsImportance of strategic investments and cost controlLeveraging financial storytelling for decision-makingBest practices for client and revenue management Key Takeaways:In addition to revenue, law firm owners should track net income and cash flow, as well as specific KPIs like effective hourly rates and client lifetime value to fully understand profitability.Payroll should be about 40-45% of revenue; excessive payroll spending can prevent firm growth and profitability, especially if partners or staff are not contributing proportional value.Firms should aim to bill upfront where possible and maintain timely follow-ups on accounts receivable to reduce cash flow issues and avoid prolonged collection struggles.Undercharging for services can lead to rapid client acquisition but may indicate undervaluing; regular market assessments can ensure competitive and profitable pricing. "The financial story goes beyond just having a financial report that your bookkeeper might give you each month. It’s more about understanding where you are right now in your business and where you want to go." —  Brian Zapf Join Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/category/events/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: The Tim Ferriss Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795 About Brian Zapf: Brian Zapf is the founder and Chief CFO of Flight Financial, a fractional CFO firm that helps law firm owners master their financials through clear financial storytelling and strategic financial management. With a focus on improving cash flow, profitability, and business growth, Brian uses his background in accounting and finance to help lawyers turn their numbers into actionable insights. He has helped his clients focus on what matters, improve their firm's performance, and reduce their stress. Connect with Brian Zapf:  Website: https://www.flight.financial/Email: brian@flight.financialLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bdzapf/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Scott Love discuss:The value of finding a specialized niche in legal recruitingStrategies for building resilience in a challenging fieldTechniques for effectively positioning oneself as a trusted expertThe importance of focusing efforts to maximize productivity and impact Key Takeaways:Focusing exclusively on corporate, finance, and private equity law clients allowed Scott to build deeper client relationships and better anticipate client needs.Analyzing hiring and attrition data from law firms helps identify ideal clients whose needs align well with a specialized niche, enhancing recruitment effectiveness.Narrowing service to a limited number of retained clients at a time can improve service outcomes by allowing more dedicated and strategic client development.Success in niche recruiting relies on building a brand distinct from competitors, using thought leadership, targeted marketing, and leveraging unique personal strengths to attract high-value clients. "If you're dealing with sophisticated people, you really need to find not just uniqueness but distinction. And if you don’t have it, you can build it through thought leadership." —  Scott Love Join Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/category/events/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: Pitch Anything: An Innovative Method for Presenting, Persuading, and Winning the Deal by Oren Klaff: https://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Anything-Innovative-Presenting-Persuading/dp/0071752854 About Scott Love: Scott Love is the founder of The Attorney Search Group, a legal recruiting firm. His practice focuses on partner transitions and law firm mergers, with specialized expertise in recruiting for global law firms in the areas of corporate, finance, private equity, and related practices. Connect with Scott Love:  Website: https://attorneysearchgroup.com/Show: The Rainmaking Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-rainmaking-podcast/id318840415LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scotttlove/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Educate discuss:Effective habits for business development and client relationshipsRelationship-driven networking and sustained client loyaltyThe impact of mentorship and personal values on professional growthThe importance of active listening and sales-free selling techniques Key Takeaways:Making business development a regular, ingrained part of the daily routine is essential for long-term success and should not be left as an “end-of-day” task.Building a client relationship based on trust and a commitment to solving client issues, even outside one’s specific expertise, can strengthen loyalty and ensure clients return.Personal experiences and relationships, such as advice from family, shape and inform approaches to client interactions, stressing genuine investment in client outcomes.Developing an initial personal network—family, friends, and peers—early on can lay a foundation for a robust client base, emphasizing relationship depth over formal networking. "People want to work with people that they respect and admire and people they feel like ‘get it’… it’s not just about the case in front of you. It's not just about the client relationship in front of you. It's making that person's life that much easier." —  Michael Educate Join Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/category/events/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: The Par Train - A Mental Golf Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-par-train-a-mental-golf-show/id1136003885 About Michael Educate: Michael Educate is a trial lawyer engaged in all aspects of dispute resolution and strategic counseling, both in commercial litigation and in tax controversy matters. He has experience across various legal areas and industries for clients of all sizes, from small, privately held businesses to multinational enterprises, and particularly focuses his practice on representing clients in the financial industry as well as motor vehicle manufacturers and distributors. Mike is also frequently called upon to handle disputes involving asset and business valuations and complex damages claims. Connect with Michael Educate:  Website: https://www.bfkn.com/people/michaeleducateEmail: michael.educate@bfkn.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeleducate/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Rochelle Seltzer discuss:Embracing creativity for professional and personal growthManaging client relationships and workload creativelyBuilding an authentic personal brandUnlocking creativity in structured professions Key Takeaways:Lawyers can build a more fulfilling practice by choosing clients selectively, raising rates, and letting go of work that doesn’t align with their strengths, helping to prevent burnout.Short breaks throughout the day, even just to breathe or walk, help the right brain process information freely, often leading to "aha" moments that strict schedules may block.Starting the day with a quick intention, like five minutes of journaling, creates a mental foundation for openness, curiosity, and meaningful progress in both work and life.Reconnecting with personal interests, like gardening, music, or cooking, releases creative energy, boosts motivation, sparks new ideas, and adds enthusiasm to daily tasks. "When you step one little baby step over your comfort zone—that line of your comfort zone—you’re already in a more creative space." —  Rochelle Seltzer Join Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/category/events/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: 10x Is Easier Than 2x by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy: https://www.amazon.com/10x-Easier-Than-World-Class-Entrepreneurs/dp/140196995X About Rochelle Seltzer: Rochelle Seltzer is a Creative Core Coach, author of the highly acclaimed book, Live Big: A Manifesto for a Creative Life, and an international speaker. Her mission is to unleash the untapped creative capacity inside women (and men) everywhere. She coaches accomplished women, leads powerful retreats, and brings dynamic programs into companies. Her work enables women to show up boldly, bring all of their greatness into the world, have their biggest impact, and live their most fulfilling lives. Connect with Rochelle Seltzer:  Website: https://www.rochelleseltzer.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@rochelleseltzercreativecoachLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rochelle-seltzer-coach/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seltzerrochelle/ Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Daniel Scola discuss:Developing business skills as a lawyerBalancing legal expertise with emotional intelligenceTransitioning from in-house counsel to a law firm partnerCompeting with larger firms for corporate clients Key Takeaways:Building strong relationships with general counsel often involves using emotional intelligence to understand their concerns and tailor communication effectively.Transitioning from in-house to a law firm typically requires learning business development skills, relying on initiative and building relationships to attract clients.To compete with larger firms, smaller firms can emphasize personal attention from experienced attorneys, offering more direct and hands-on service.Understanding the internal pressures on general counsel, such as how they communicate up the chain, helps lawyers offer tailored solutions that ease their stress. "If you just say, 'I can do it for a cheaper price,' it's not going to work... You have to emphasize that an experienced person will do the work... not a first-year associate with three others reviewing it." —  Daniel Scola Join Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/category/events/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: The Power of Bad: How the Negativity Effect Rules Us and How We Can Rule It by John Tierney & Roy F. Baumeister About Daniel Scola: Daniel A. Scola, Jr. is the managing partner of Hoffmann & Baron, LLP, overseeing the chemical, pharmaceutical/biochemical, and medical device practice in the New Jersey office. With extensive experience in polymers, pharmaceuticals, and medical devices, he specializes in building IP portfolios and strategies to protect company value. Scola practices in Post Grant Proceedings at the USPTO and has argued at the appellate level before the CAFC. He held roles at Warner-Lambert Co. and Loctite Corporation, and before law, he was a chemist at United Technologies with expertise in material science, polymers, and adhesives. Connect with Daniel Scola:  Website: https://www.hbiplaw.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielscola/ & https://www.linkedin.com/company/hbiplawTwitter: https://x.com/hbiplawFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/hbiplaw Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911  Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Steve, Camille, and Brenda discuss:Law firm compensation structures and challengesThe role of transparency in legal industry compensationSuccession planning and generational shifts in law firmsRecruiting and retaining legal talent in a competitive market Key Takeaways:Non-equity partnership tracks are becoming common, allowing lawyers to learn financial and managerial aspects before committing to buy-ins.Law school debt significantly influences young lawyers' careers, with some firms offering loan reimbursement to attract top talent.Compensation plans should align with a firm's goals and offer flexibility to retain high performers while balancing work-life needs.Origination credit structures can create competition within firms, but when managed well, they enhance succession planning and stability. "If you're willing to have conversations with people about what they want in life... you're speaking their love language at that point." —  Camille Stell"I had a partner tell me a long time ago, 'I don't need any new clients because all of our conference rooms are full,' and I'm just thinking how short-sighted that could possibly be." —  Brenda BarnesJoin Steve on November 15th for an exclusive 60-minute session focused on actionable strategies for business growth. Register now—seats are limited to the first 20 attorneys! Sign up here: https://www.fretzin.com/blog/category/events/ Thank you to our Sponsors!Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/Rainmakers Roundtable: https://www.fretzin.com/lawyer-coaching-and-training/peer-advisory-groups/ Episode References: Financial Feminist Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/financial-feminist/id1566054936About Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes: Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes are the authors of the newly published 2nd Edition of Respect: An Insight to Attorney Compensation Plans. Brenda and Camille are available for consults in succession planning, path to partnership, and compensation plans, including financial formulas for capital buy-in and retirement buy-out. Connect with Camille Stell and Brenda Barnes:  Website: http://www.lawyersmutualconsulting.com & http://www.brenda-barnes.comBook:  RESPECT - An Insight to Attorney Compensation Plans:https://www.amazon.com/RESPECT-Insight-Attorney-Compensation-Plans/dp/1734108665LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camillestell/ & https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendabarnes/Twitter: https://x.com/barneslegalmgmt Connect with Steve Fretzin:LinkedIn: Steve FretzinTwitter: @stevefretzinInstagram: @fretzinsteveFacebook: Fretzin, Inc.Website: Fretzin.comEmail: Steve@Fretzin.comBook: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more!YouTube: Steve FretzinCall Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.